1 Wednesday, 6 April 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.22 p.m.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon.

7 Mr. Jasovic, if I could remind you of the affirmation you took at

8 the commencement of your evidence, which still applies. At a look there

9 is no sound.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand anything.

11 Yes, now it's all right.

12 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

13 JUDGE PARKER: If I could remind you of the affirmation you made

14 at the commencement of your evidence; it still applies.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Black.

17 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour. Good afternoon. Before I

18 resume my questioning, one matter that the registry was kind enough to

19 raise to my attention. Yesterday we admitted Prosecution Exhibit 210,

20 and I neglect to ask that it be placed under seal and I do that now.

21 JUDGE PARKER: It should be under seal.

22 MR. BLACK: Thank you very much.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Tab 26 which was Prosecution Exhibit 210 is

24 received under seal.

25 WITNESS: DRAGAN JASOVIC [Resumed]

1 [Witness answered through interpreter]

2 Examined by Mr. Black: [Continued]

3 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Jasovic.

4 A. Good afternoon.

5 Q. Can you understand me okay?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. As I said yesterday, if at any time you don't understand one of

8 my questions, please stop me and let me know and I'll try to put it more

9 clearly. Do you understand?

10 A. Yes.

11 MR. BLACK: Your Honour for this next topic I believe it

12 appropriate to be in private session, please.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

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4 [Open session]

5 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session.

6 MR. BLACK:

7 Q. Mr. Jasovic, I want you to look at the image in front of you.

8 Can you recognise that place?

9 A. This is a picture of the KLA prison, or rather the house in which

10 it was.

11 MR. BLACK: If I could ask Mr. Younis if we can get a little bit

12 closer.

13 This, Your Honours, is actually found on page 20 of P006.

14 Mr. Younis, could you just pan from left to right there for a

15 moment.

16 Q. Mr. Jasovic, I would like you to just watch the screen for a

17 moment.

18 Now, do you recognise what you've seen on the monitor in front of

19 you?

20 A. Yes, on the right-hand side was the KLA prison and on the other

21 side was the KLA headquarters. This is the house on the right-hand side

22 and this is the metal gate on the building where the headquarters was.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 MR. BLACK: And for the record, Your Honours, I would note that

25 the compound on the right is labelled "Compound A," and the compound on

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1 the left is labelled "Compound B," in the materials.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the right-hand side looking from

3 the main road.

4 MR. BLACK:

5 Q. Okay. Thank you.

6 Mr. Jasovic, did you go in either of these places when you

7 visited this site with Witness X on the 1st of August, 1998?

8 A. Yes. Mr. Sparavalo, Witness X, the authorised officials from the

9 Pristina SUP and I entered the buildings.

10 Q. Thank you. And continuing here with P005 --

11 MR. BLACK: Mr. Younis, could you please enter compound A.

12 Q. Mr. Jasovic, have a look at the image in front of you. Do you

13 recognise that place?

14 A. Yes, I do recognise it because I was there.

15 MR. BLACK: Now, Mr. Younis, I would ask you just to pan around

16 to the left slowly so Mr. Jasovic can have a look at the entire compound.

17 Okay. I think you can go back the way we came, please, Mr.

18 Younis. Stop right there.

19 Your Honours, this is the same image as page 6 of Prosecution

20 Exhibit 6. It's labelled "building A1."

21 Q. Mr. Jasovic, do you recognise the building on the screen in front

22 of you?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did you visit any of the rooms inside this building?

25 A. I went with Witness X into -- not the ground floor but the upper

1 floor of this house where there are two rooms. Witness X told me that it

2 was to those rooms they had taken him to interview him and to maltreat

3 and beat him.

4 MR. BLACK: Mr. Younis, can you please lead us inside the

5 upstairs of building A1. Go ahead and click through again there. Now,

6 could you please turn us around so we can see this room, Mr. Younis.

7 Q. Do you recognise this place, Mr. Jasovic?

8 A. Yes, I recognise both.

9 Q. Did this -- have you ever been in this place, just for clarity?

10 A. Yes, on that day, the 1st of August, 1998. I entered these two

11 rooms.

12 Q. Okay. And did those rooms look any differently on the 1st of

13 August, 1998 than you see them on the screen in front of you, if you can

14 remember?

15 A. They looked different. Things were thrown around, TV sets, video

16 recorders, and so on. Probably when the KLA staff was planning to leave

17 this headquarters they -- there was some confusion and they took some

18 things.

19 MR. BLACK: If Mr. Younis could click on the door to take us

20 outside of that room. And if you could move us to the left, we'll have a

21 look at building that is marked A2. Actually, before you -- could you go

22 back for a moment to building A1, Mr. Younis.

23 Q. Mr. Jasovic, did you go in any other rooms besides the two we

24 have just seen in this building that you see in front of you?

25 A. I went left into the garage, I think, on the left-hand side where

1 I found a sponge, and Witness X -- it was actually a foam mattress and

2 Witness X said Safet Hyseni and Seva Petro [phoen] from Stimlje

3 municipality who had been kidnapped had slept there. In the other part

4 of the garage there was in my view, about -- in my estimation, that is,

5 about 20 tonnes of flour.

6 Q. Mr. Jasovic, you said "to the left." Do you mean the left part

7 of the screen? Or please explain where you mean by "this garage."

8 A. Looking from the entrance through the front door.

9 Q. Okay.

10 MR. BLACK: Mr. Younis, if you could pan a little bit to the

11 right, please.

12 Q. Mr. Jasovic, can you see that garage on your screen now?

13 A. Yes, yes.

14 MR. BLACK: Your Honours, this is referred to --

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There's a vehicle inside. The part

16 above had not been built, the part above the garage, at that time I mean.

17 MR. BLACK:

18 Q. Thank you.

19 MR. BLACK: And for the record, this is garage A6. The image we

20 see is on page 14 of P006.

21 Mr. Younis, can you pan back to the left across the compound,

22 please. Stop right there.

23 For the record, this is building A2.

24 Q. Mr. Jasovic, do you recognise that place?

25 A. Yes, I recognise this place. That's the other building in the

1 same courtyard.

2 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, we're currently looking at the same view

3 as page 5 of P6.

4 Q. Mr. Jasovic, did you go in any rooms in this building?

5 A. In this building, I did not enter any rooms because with Mr. X,

6 since this was a barn, the prison and room for miscellaneous objects.

7 Q. Okay. You mention a barn and a room for miscellaneous objects.

8 Do you remember where those were?

9 A. I don't know how to put it. Looking from the entrance to the

10 yard on the right-hand side, the first room was a larder. Then it was a

11 barn for cattle, for livestock.

12 MR. BLACK: Mr. Younis, I'm going to ask you to click first on

13 the well there and pan to the left to see if we can get a --

14 Q. Mr. Jasovic, you'll see as we go across the compound, this is

15 another view of that same part of building A2 we were just discussing.

16 MR. BLACK: Mr. Younis, you can stop there, please.

17 Q. Mr. Jasovic, looking at the screen in front of you, can you tell

18 us anything about what you see?

19 A. This part, on the left-hand side from where I sit, this was not

20 there. But given that this picture is taken at a distance, I presume it

21 would go for a barn I think.

22 MR. BLACK: Mr. Younis, could you click on the next photo to the

23 right. There you go.

24 Q. Mr. Jasovic -- yeah. Mr. Younis is going to pan around this room

25 and just look at it for a moment.

1 MR. BLACK: Your Honours, for the record again this room is

2 labelled A4 and you can find the same images at pages 8 and 9 of P006.

3 Q. Mr. Jasovic, do you recognise this place?

4 A. Yes, that's the livestock compound.

5 Q. Do you remember if Witness X told you anything about this place?

6 A. I recall that he said that he was in the room that was meant to

7 be a larder and that in the livestock compound that he could hear from

8 the (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 Q. Mr. Jasovic, could I just remind you, be careful with the names.

11 MR. BLACK: And could we have a redaction there, Your Honours, of

12 that name that was mentioned. I apologise.

13 Q. Mr. Jasovic, in addition to Witness X, please be careful of

14 mentioning other names because we're in public session. And if you have

15 any doubts if you can say a name, ask me and we can go into private

16 session if we have to.

17 MR. BLACK: Mr. Younis, can you take us out of this cowshed

18 please, and pan back to the right. Actually, before you do --

19 Q. Mr. Jasovic, the image in front of you, do you remember anything

20 else about what you see in front of you?

21 A. I recall the place in front of the cowshed where there were white

22 caps and belts. I remember the well because we washed our hands there.

23 MR. BLACK: Could I go briefly into private session, Your Honour?

24 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

25 [Private session]

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7 [Open session]

8 THE REGISTRAR: Open session.

9 MR. BLACK: Thank you.

10 Q. Mr. Jasovic, we're in open session now, so please again use care

11 with names.

12 MR. BLACK: Mr. Younis, can you --

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. It slips my mind

14 sometimes.

15 MR. BLACK:

16 Q. You have no need to apologise; don't worry about it.

17 MR. BLACK: Mr. Younis, can you please pan to the right. And

18 stop there. And if you could go ahead and click on the door of that

19 room. Go ahead and go in. This is the room marked A5. You can see it,

20 Your Honours, on pages 11, 12, and 13 of P006.

21 Q. Mr. Jasovic, do you recognise the place that is shown on the

22 screen in front of you?

23 A. Yes. This is a larder where Person X, who had been kidnapped,

24 was located.

25 Q. Did it look any differently on the 1st of August, 1998, than it

1 does not image in front of you?

2 A. In 1998 on the 1st of August, there was some foam mattresses

3 here. Behind the door there was a metal bucket, which the inmates used

4 for their number one and number two. And this is what person X told me

5 there.

6 Q. Thank you very much.

7 MR. BLACK: Mr. Younis, could you just exit and show us the

8 courtyard again and pan a little bit to the right, please. Actually, I

9 think we're done with P005.

10 Q. Mr. Jasovic, did you take anything with you when you left this

11 place on the 1st of August, 1998?

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted). The other caps and belts remained there. I and my colleague,

14 Momcilo Sparavalo, did not take anything from that place.

15 Q. Without mentioning any names, if you can, do you know what

16 happened to those caps and belts that were taken?

17 A. You mean Person X who took the cap and the trouser belt?

18 Q. Yes. I'm just asking if you know. Do you know what happened to

19 that cap and trouser belt after -- after you left this place?

20 A. When we left that place, after we did the on-site investigation

21 performed by authorised personnel of the Pristina SUP, I, Person X, and

22 Momcilo Sparavalo came to the secretariat of the interior of Urosevac in

23 Urosevac. But before that, we dropped by in the secretariat of the

24 interior in Pristina. When we came to Urosevac, Person X and I went to

25 the chief of the secretariat. I reported to the superior officer, that

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1 is the chief, on what we found on the crime scene. And given that Person

2 X was apprehensive and upset, chief of the secretariat told Person X,

3 Please calm down and take some rest and come back in two days' time to

4 the secretariat so that the deposition could be taken for criminal

5 charges to be instigated, given that we had to deal with a criminal --

6 the crime of terrorism.

7 I came for a couple of moments with Person X to my office, and

8 that Person X gave me the cap and the trouser belt saying that he would

9 be returning in two days' time for them. At that time, we did not issue

10 him with a receipt on the cap and the trouser belt. I did not depose him

11 for criminal charges; however, Person X did not come back to the Urosevac

12 secretariat of the interior after two days or later --

13 Q. Okay, let me just -- I'm sorry to interrupt.

14 MR. BLACK: Could we just go briefly into private session, Your

15 Honour.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

17 [Private session]

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11 [Open session]

12 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session.

13 MR. BLACK: Thank you.

14 Q. Mr. Jasovic, I'm going to briefly backtrack. You explained to us

15 about your visit to this compound with Witness X. Before you came back

16 to the SUP, did you go -- can you explain what happened right after you

17 left that compound, if you went to any other places.

18 A. With the police commander, we tried to go to Velika Stena, the

19 crime scene, where Person X explained persons who had been kidnapped were

20 lined into two groups, and they were taken to that spot and that they

21 were killed there. However, when we set off from the head -- former

22 headquarters towards Velika Stena, some hundred metres along the way we

23 received fire from rifles opened by Siptar terrorists, the so-called KLA,

24 and then we had to retreat. And so we did to avoid any casualties.

25 Q. Thank you, Mr. Jasovic. Now, I'm going to turn your attention

1 back to the document we were looking at earlier, and I'm going to ask you

2 to continue to use caution, to refer to Witness X only by that, I guess,

3 moniker. And I'm referring to the document at tab 27, which you have in

4 front of you. Sir, when did you type up this text?

5 A. This document was typed, as it can be seen in the note, on the

6 5th of August, 1998, with the view of expecting Person X to come so that

7 we could depose said person to instigate a criminal investigation. But

8 since he did not show up, on the basis of interview with him, my

9 colleague, Momcilo Sparavalo, and at this drafted in official note.

10 Q. Thank you. And you can take a moment to look at the official

11 note, if you want to, and then tell me: Is this a complete record of

12 what Witness X told you on the 1st of August, 1998, and what you yourself

13 saw on the visit you just described?

14 A. I wouldn't say that this is a complete record because we did not

15 insert certain information, counting on him coming back to us.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 MR. BLACK: Your Honours, this is another document, like

18 Prosecution Exhibit 210, that was discussed at great length during a

19 protected witness's testimony during cross-examination and direct

20 examination. I would move that it be admitted and given the next exhibit

21 number under seal, please.

22 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Guy-Smith.

24 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes, I would be objecting to its admission based,

25 upon other things, the witness's last answer in that the document is

1 incomplete. It's not an accurate reflection of whatever occurred between

2 the period of discussion between him and the witness who is unnamed.

3 JUDGE PARKER: [Microphone not activated]

4 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes, I believe that I do. I believe that with

5 regard to the document of yesterday, that is a document which was, if I'm

6 not mistaken acknowledged by the witness, if I'm not mistaken. If I

7 could have but a moment to just double-check my notes.

8 JUDGE PARKER: You mean when the witness was here giving his

9 evidence?

10 MR. GUY-SMITH: I mean at the time that the witness was actually

11 in fact interviewed with regard to this document. The first document --

12 the document of July 18th I believe -- of the July 18th interview is a

13 document which the witness did in fact acknowledge and sign. The second

14 document which is a document of the August documents is a document, we

15 have heard, the witness did not acknowledge either during the witness

16 interview. And with regard to the information that is contained in this

17 document, we have been told it is incomplete.

18 Now, I don't have with me the entirety of the transcript with

19 regard to the witness's, that's Witness A's, discussion of tab 27. So I

20 would not be in a position to argue absolutely that it wasn't covered in

21 its entirety and I wouldn't do such a thing. However, I believe that the

22 tab 27 information is incomplete and on that basis it should not be

23 admitted.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Is there any other submission?

25 Mr. Black.

1 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, I would only mention, and I think Mr.

2 Guy-Smith corrected himself there at the end, the witness has not said

3 that it was inaccurate, only that it was incomplete. And I would submit

4 that during cross-examination of that protected witness and direct

5 examination, those -- whatever information may not have been included, I

6 think that's been fully vetted.

7 JUDGE PARKER: My recollection is not complete at the moment of

8 what occurred that -- during that cross-examination and examination. Is

9 it your submission that this document was put to the witness?

10 MR. BLACK: Yes, Your Honour. And I hope Defence counsel will

11 correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this document was put to him by

12 Defence counsel for Mr. Limaj, and I'm not sure if any of the other

13 Defence counsel. He was questioned specifically about it.

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 MR. GUY-SMITH: If I might make a suggestion, since quite frankly

16 my memory does not serve in specific perhaps -- ah-ha I see someone's

17 certainly does, so I can't make this suggestion.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Topolski has been identified as well as Mr.

19 Mansfield as culprits.

20 MR. GUY-SMITH: I don't believe that I did and it may be for

21 that --

22 JUDGE PARKER: --

23 MR. GUY-SMITH: -- reason that I am standing. I'm trying to get

24 there. If I -- if I might. Before -- if the Court would reserve ruling

25 until I have but a moment to double-check the transcript. I'm more than

1 happy to come back on this issue if that would be okay.

2 JUDGE PARKER: That sounds a very practical course. We will --

3 if you would move on and we will come back to that.

4 MR. BLACK: Of course, Your Honour. Thank you.

5 For this topic, I do think we have to go into private session for

6 a moment.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

8 [Private session]

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10 [Open session]

11 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session.

12 MR. BLACK: Thank you.

13 Q. Mr. Jasovic, I'm going to ask you about a few names. I just want

14 to see if you know these people. Do you know a person named Lutfi

15 Xhemshiti?

16 A. Yes, I know him personally. He's a grounds-keeper from Crni

17 Breg, from the village of Crni Breg from the Lipjan municipality. I

18 cannot remember the exact day or month, but in 1998 he came to my office

19 once, to my office in Urosevac, saying that while doing his rounds in the

20 forest - he was a forester - he received death threats by so-called KLA

21 or Siptar terrorists. And this is what I said yesterday, that those

22 people, Albanians, who worked and served in state-owned institutions and

23 enterprises were targeted.

24 I met that person through the chief of the traffic police at the

25 secretariat of the interior in Urosevac because Lutfi Xhemshiti, he

1 served in the same barracks in the Yugoslav army with the chief of

2 traffic police of the Urosevac SUP, but I could not say where did he

3 performed his national service. He -- Lutfi Xhemshiti complained about

4 these death threats to his -- to the chief of traffic police, who then

5 referred him to me, to my office.

6 Q. Now, you've described one instance where Lutfi Xhemshiti came to

7 you. Was he a police informant?

8 A. It's not true that he was. I do have Siptars as colleagues to

9 this very day, so if people socialise -- get in social contact together,

10 that does not mean that they are informants or spies.

11 Q. What about the -- besides social contact, what about the someone

12 who comes and reports an incident on one occasion like this; do you

13 consider such people police informants?

14 A. The Ministry of the Interior is a legal institution. Any problem

15 ranging from a misdemeanour to a crime of course is to be reported to the

16 nearest secretariat of interior affairs in the area where the person

17 lives. It's a different matter that the Siptar terrorists of the

18 so-called KLA had their scouts and they would put these spies in front of

19 a police station, for example in Stimlje or Urosevac, to see what Siptars

20 were coming in and out. In their view, no Siptar should, for example,

21 apply for a licence to bear weapons, apply for an identity card, apply

22 for a passport or any other document issued by the secretariat of the

23 interior. Every country in Europe and in the world does the same.

24 Q. Thank you. I'm going to ask you about another name now. Did you

25 know a person named Emin Emini?

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1 A. I knew Mr. Emin Emini. He was from the village of Crnoljevo,

2 Stimlje municipality. I know that his wife was from the village of Racak

3 in Stimlje municipality. I know that this was a person who was poor. He

4 had over a hundred goats and he was kidnapped and taken to the notorious

5 prison in Lapusnik. We also have information that his brother, whose

6 name escapes me at the moment, was also kidnapped.

7 Q. Was Emin Emini a police informant?

8 A. Well, according to the logic of the Siptar terrorists, yes; but

9 in my view this is not correct.

10 Q. Do you know a person named --

11 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me, I refrained from objecting before, but

12 at this point I'm going to object to the answer that was previously given

13 on line 9 through 18 and being a nonresponsive to the particular question

14 asked in its entirety.

15 And with regard to the last answer given, I'm going to object on

16 the grounds that it lacks a foundation and is outside of this particular

17 witness's knowledge at this time. I believe that the question was

18 directed towards what relationship Mr. Jasovic has with these people and

19 whether he consider them to be police informants or not, not whether

20 others did.

21 JUDGE PARKER: The question and the answer which has been asked

22 more than once, whether somebody was a police informant, seems to have

23 been asked on a general basis and that leaves open whether this witness

24 can speak with authority whether there was such a status or understanding

25 of the person in question generally in the police force rather than

1 whether he can speak only of his own contact and dealing with the person.

2 I think you'd better clear that up, Mr. Black, before we go any further.

3 MR. BLACK: Very well, Your Honour, I will. And if Mr.

4 Guy-Smith's objection was directed to this witness's idea of the logic of

5 the terrorists, I'm sure Your Honours can disregard that or won't

6 consider that as important evidence.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Well, there's been a measure of evidence of such a

8 nature yesterday and today. There have been a general forbearance which

9 has enabled us to get along with it. But you will realise that there can

10 be no weight attached to that sort of thing.

11 MR. BLACK: Thank you.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Clear up the important issue.

13 MR. BLACK: I'll try.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.

15 MR. BLACK:

16 Q. Mr. Jasovic, over yesterday and today and I've asked you on

17 several occasions if someone was a police informant. Did you know all of

18 the police informants that were used by the SUP in your area?

19 A. I couldn't tell you exactly according to the law on the interior

20 and the rules of service in the Ministry of the Interior. If I had a

21 registered informant, my colleague could not find out who the informant

22 was.

23 Q. Okay. So when in answer to my questions you've said someone was

24 not a police informant, was that as far as you know or was it some more

25 broad statement?

1 A. It's on the was of everything I learned. I am referring to the

2 kidnapped persons and I am absolutely certain with reference to the

3 persons mentioned here that they were nobody's informants or friendly

4 contacts or anything of the kind. I'm quite certain of that.

5 Q. How many years did you work as a policeman in this area?

6 A. For six years because I know the Stimlje area very well. From

7 the 1st of July, 1975, to the 1st of May, 1981. I was also assistant

8 commander of the police station in Urosevac and we patrolled Stimlje

9 together.

10 Q. Thank you. And just to go back to clarify an answer that you

11 gave before. When you said you were certain that these people weren't

12 informants, how were you certain? Can you explain that answer any more?

13 A. When the Ministry of the Interior in Urosevac was dislocated to

14 Leskovac, I found the file containing the names of the registered

15 informants. Maybe in Urosevac I could not have had access to this

16 information, but I did have access to it in Leskovac. Because -- because

17 of all the other problems we had, there were two of us working on

18 operative matters, so we kept the file at hand, the file containing the

19 names of all the collaborators, informants, and other contacts. I don't

20 know whether I've been clear enough.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Black, is that a file that has been produced

22 and disclosed?

23 MR. BLACK: No it hasn't, Your Honour. It's the first time I

24 hear of such a file.

25 JUDGE PARKER: At the time as I understand the effect of the

1 witness's evidence on this point, it is that he, if following the normal

2 procedures, would keep confidential to himself who were his informants

3 and that would not normally be known by other officers; nor would he

4 normally know who were informants to other officers, and that the only

5 factual basis for some different understanding may have been this book or

6 file dealing with one of the stations, a file we haven't had disclosed.

7 Is that it?

8 MR. BLACK: I think that's generally correct, Your Honour. I

9 would say this one station was the headquarters for the entire area, and

10 I believe he -- his first response when I asked him about this question

11 was that he is basing this assessment on all the things that he learned

12 as a police officer in this area during the years that he mentioned as

13 well as this list that he has now said that he saw after leaving.

14 JUDGE PARKER: You're basing it generally. You get no further

15 than the general position, do you not, that one officer normally would

16 not know who was an informant of another officer?

17 MR. BLACK: Yes, Your Honour. I wish I had been more specific in

18 this. What I've been driving at is whether, as far as he knew, any of

19 these people were police informants. If you think I need to explore that

20 more, I am happy to do so, otherwise --

21 JUDGE PARKER: I have given you my indication of what my

22 impression is of the effect of the evidence on this point so far. If you

23 want to try and make more on it, please go ahead; if Mr. Guy-Smith wants

24 to make more of it, he will have a full opportunity. But we have got

25 some factual basis.

1 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour. May I have a moment to

2 confer with my colleagues.

3 [Prosecution counsel confer]

4 MR. MANSFIELD: Your Honour, while the conference is going on,

5 may I raise one point and that is: It would be useful to know whether

6 the register exists because in fact it's not the first time he mentioned

7 it; he mentioned it yesterday in relation to informants. And it would be

8 useful to know whether it exists, whether he means the register in

9 relation to his particular informant or whether he means a general

10 register on which his informant appeared along with a lot of other

11 people, which is the one he may now be talking about. But if he's going

12 to be giving evidence which is based on either of those two registers, we

13 would be grateful to know if they exist, and if they do where they are,

14 and whether there's any possibility of any access to those.

15 JUDGE PARKER: I think that submission effectively interrupted

16 the discussion on the other side of the bar table.

17 [Prosecution counsel confer]

18 [Defence counsel confer]

19 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honours. I appreciate the

20 indulgence. I'll do my best to try to explore this issue a little bit

21 further.

22 Q. Mr. Jasovic, you've mentioned this register, this file. Does

23 that still exist?

24 A. I believe it does, in the secretariat of interior affairs in

25 Leskovac.

1 Q. Is that a document that the Tribunal could have access to?

2 A. I don't know. You must ask a higher authority because this is a

3 strictly confidential document.

4 Q. Do you know what higher authority should be contacted if we were

5 to make such a request or if the Defence were to make such a request?

6 A. Well, it doesn't fall within my competence. It's the job of the

7 chief of the secretariat of Urosevac, and he would certainly be able to

8 answer your question.

9 Q. Mr. Jasovic, in addition to registered contacts, you said that

10 you were certain these people were not friendly contacts. On what basis

11 did you make that assessment?

12 A. Could you repeat your question, please.

13 Q. Yes. I believe in your testimony and in a recent -- in an answer

14 you gave a few minutes ago you said you were certain these people were

15 not registered contacts or friendly contacts. And I've asked you a

16 couple of questions about the registered, but now I want to focus on

17 friendly contacts. How did you know that these men were not friendly --

18 friendly contacts of the police or police informants in that sense,

19 non-registered informants?

20 A. To clarify this, a friendly contact is not the same as a

21 registered contact. It's a person who comes to the offices of their own

22 accord or to a special place to provide some information of interest to

23 the service. This operative contact is not registered.

24 Let me clarify. Only collaborators and informants are

25 registered. There are also operative contacts, friendly contacts, and so

1 on. I don't know how clear I've been. A collaborator must be told he is

2 providing information of interest to the service. Another kind of

3 contact need not be told this. He doesn't even have to know it. I don't

4 know how clear I've been.

5 Q. Did you know about the friendly contacts of your colleagues, who

6 they were, those friendly contacts?

7 A. I didn't know and I wasn't interested in their contacts. Every

8 country -- in every country of the world, no colleague will tell another

9 who his friendly contacts are and you don't ask whose collaborators -- or

10 who the collaborators or informants or friendly or operative contacts are

11 of a colleague. If a colleague submits an official note relating to

12 terrorism and submits it to our superior, it might be delivered to me in

13 the line of work, but the information might have been provided -- he

14 might say the information is provided by a registered contact. But that

15 need not be the case. He might be providing information given him by a

16 friendly contact. A collaborator, informant, friendly connection, or

17 operative connection must be protected so that that person or their

18 family do not suffer any consequences.

19 Q. Mr. Jasovic, given what you've just explained to us, on what

20 basis are you certain that these people were not friendly contacts?

21 A. You see, I didn't say they were not friends; I'm saying they were

22 not registered contacts. In other words, that they are not a

23 collaborator or an informant who must be registered. That's what I'm

24 saying. Friendly contacts are something quite different. I might have a

25 friend who is a Siptar, and while we are sitting in a cafe or somewhere

1 he might give me a piece of information.

2 Q. Thank you, Mr. Jasovic.

3 MR. BLACK: Your Honours, this is an appropriate time to take a

4 break.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because --

6 MR. BLACK:

7 Q. If you need to add something more, Mr. Jasovic, please go ahead

8 and do so.

9 A. I was going to say: Nobody would ask a colleague who their

10 contacts were, whether registered or unregistered, because you could use

11 either registered or unregistered contacts. But a colleague proposing

12 someone to our superior might want to register that person, either as a

13 collaborator or as an informant.

14 Q. Mr. Jasovic, then -- now, just focusing on yourself and not on

15 your colleagues, were any of these people that we've talked about, the

16 names were Agim Ademi, Shyqyri Zymeri, Vesel Ahmeti, Adem Ramadani,

17 Shefqet Ramadani, were any of these men registered contacts or friendly

18 contacts for you?

19 A. Apart from the person I mentioned yesterday, none of these were

20 registered with me, none of the others.

21 Q. Okay. And you say "apart from the person I mentioned yesterday,"

22 is that the the person you referred to yesterday as a registered contact?

23 Is that what you mean?

24 A. Yes. Yes, that's what I was referring to. Yes.

25 Q. Okay. Thank you. And you said "none of these were registered

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1 with me." But were they unregistered informants? Were they friendly

2 contacts for you?

3 A. They were not my friendly contacts. With some of them I did sit

4 in a cafe. That's where we could sit together. It doesn't mean that

5 he's a friendly contact. He might be a friend. According to the rules

6 of the service of friendly contact is something else. It's a different

7 matter if I sit down in a cafe or somewhere else with a friend.

8 Q. Explain the difference between a friendly contact and a friend,

9 please.

10 A. I have many Siptars who are friends of mine. I never asked a

11 friend of mine for any official information. However, a friend might

12 enter the offices and give us official information; that's not

13 impossible. I don't know how to explain this. A friendly contact is a

14 friend who gives you information. But I would never abuse my friends

15 because I could get information from other people. I wanted to keep my

16 friends as friends, and I also wanted to keep my registered contacts. I

17 never forced a friend of mine to give me information, only if he

18 volunteered and came into the police station to report a crime or a

19 misdemeanour or to tell us who a possible perpetrator might be of a

20 crime. How can I explain this? The -- I don't think even the person who

21 drew up the rules of service could explain it to you.

22 Q. Well, thank you, Mr. Jasovic. I think you've done your best.

23 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, it may be time for the break.

24 JUDGE PARKER: We will resume at 20 past 4.00.

25 --- Recess taken at 3.48 p.m.

1 --- On resuming at 4.23 p.m.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Black.

3 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 [Prosecution counsel confer]

5 MR. BLACK:

6 Q. Mr. Jasovic, do you know Xheladin Ademaj?

7 A. Yes, I know him.

8 Q. How do you know him?

9 A. I used to know him back when I used to work as a policeman at the

10 Stimlje police station.

11 Q. Do you know what he does for a living?

12 A. His profession is miller. I got to know him while I was a

13 policeman patrolling in the Petrovo village and other villages, and I

14 visited him in his home in Petrovo through my colleagues of Albanian

15 ethnicity.

16 Q. Did you have any contact with him in 1998?

17 A. No, I did not. I could not say exactly, but I believe that from

18 the end of 1997 I did not -- did not see him.

19 Q. Did you learn about anything that happened to him in 1998?

20 A. I received information that he was kidnapped and forcibly removed

21 by members of the so-called KLA and that he was taken to Lapusnik camp.

22 I found out in the first half of July of 1998.

23 Q. And did you learn anything about his fate, about what happened to

24 him after that?

25 A. Do you mean in the Lapusnik camp?

1 Q. Yes. After he -- any time after he was kidnapped. Do you know

2 what happened to him after he was kidnapped?

3 A. After the kidnapping he was taken to the Lapusnik prison. I

4 learned but I cannot recall how he managed to get away when they were

5 lined in 1998 and they were taken to Velika Stena. I don't know how he

6 managed to stay alive. I was contacted after the 25th of July. My

7 colleague contacted him over the phone, Srboljub Vojinovic. He told me

8 -- he said, Xheladin Ademaj contacted me from Switzerland, told me that

9 he was safe and sound. I asked that colleague whether he explained any

10 circumstances surrounding his kidnapping, but he said he was not supposed

11 to say. He was afraid and allegedly that telephone was tapped. I'm

12 telling you this on the basis what I heard from my colleague, Srboljub

13 Vojinovic.

14 Q. As far as you personally know, Mr. Jasovic, was Xheladin Ademaj

15 ever a police informant or a police contact?

16 A. My -- he was not my registered informant. I can tell you that

17 neither was he an informant of my other colleagues. He is known because

18 he -- most of the Serbs used to buy flour from Xheladin Ademaj, from his

19 mill.

20 Q. Thank you. And now the last thing I want to have you look at is

21 the document behind tab 11 in the binder that's in front of you.

22 MR. BLACK: For the record, this bears the ERN K032-7360. It's a

23 supplementary statement, the 25th [sic] of July, 1998.

24 Q. Mr. Jasovic, have a look at this, and when you're done tell me

25 who took this statement.

1 A. My colleague, Momcilo Sparavalo, and I took that statement.

2 MR. BLACK: Could we go briefly into private session, Your

3 Honour.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

5 [Private session]

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 [Open session]

15 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session.

16 MR. BLACK:

17 Q. Mr. Jasovic, if you could follow along and I'm going to read a

18 paragraph that's halfway down the page in the B/C/S version. I want to

19 see if this is an accurate recollection of what was given to you.

20 It says: "When the terrorist actions were being committed

21 against police and army members in the section of the main road between

22 villages" -- and then it's illegible.

23 A. Village of Belince.

24 Q. And what were the villages that you just mentioned, please?

25 A. From the village of Belince, Stimlje municipality, to above the

1 village of Crnoljevo.

2 Q. Thank you. And I'll continue. It says: "Terrorists from the

3 area of Lapusnik and Malisevo - led by Commander Celik who is in

4 Malisevo - came to the aid of terrorist I mentioned in previous

5 statement. I heard that Celik was in the company of a former policeman

6 from Racak village with the pseudonym of Qerqiz who had some kind of

7 higher function in the so-called KLA. I also know that the terrorists

8 from Lapusnik were trained to use sniper rifles and hand-held launchers.

9 The persons with the nickname Celiku was the commander of the so-called

10 KLA in the area between Lapusnik and Urosevac."

11 Mr. Jasovic, my question for you is: Did you receive that from

12 information from the person we just mentioned in private session?

13 A. That is correct, yes.

14 Q. Thank you, Mr. Jasovic. You can close the binder.

15 MR. BLACK: And for the moment, Your Honour, I think I have no

16 further questions at this time.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

18 MR. BLACK: The only thing, Your Honour, is I don't know if it

19 would be a proper time to go back to the issue of tab 27 so it can be

20 admitted under seal.

21 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes.

22 JUDGE PARKER: It will receive a Prosecution number.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Tab 27 would be Prosecution Exhibit 211, under

24 seal.

25 MR. BLACK: Thank you very much.

1 JUDGE PARKER: You're up and ready to run, Mr. Topolski, in more

2 sense than one.

3 MR. TOPOLSKI: Your Honour's information is as good as mine.

4 JUDGE PARKER: It probably has the same source. Please.

5 MR. TOPOLSKI: Yes, I'm asked -- I've asked to go first and my

6 learned friends have very kindly agreed.

7 Cross-examined by Mr. Topolski:

8 Q. Mr. Jasovic, I represent, together with Mr. Powles, who sits next

9 to me here, Isak Musliu. Do you think that the word "Siptar" is

10 offensive to Albanians?

11 A. In primary and secondary school, I used to be taught Siptar

12 language and I noticed over the TV when former Prime Minister Ramush

13 Haradinaj, when Palma Plus, that's a TV station situated in Jagodina

14 interviewed him, he said "Une jam Siptar." In translation that means

15 "I'm a Siptar." To me, my opinion is this is not a derogatory term.

16 Q. Isn't it the equivalent of calling a black man a nigger?

17 A. I wouldn't know about that. I was born in Kosova in Metohija. I

18 was not born elsewhere, so I can't answer this question.

19 Q. I would be very grateful on behalf of the client I represent, who

20 takes the very deepest offence to that word, if you were not to use it

21 again. Do you understand?

22 A. That's my opinion.

23 Q. Do you understand me? I'm asking you not to use that word again.

24 You smile, Mr. Jasovic. Is this amusing in some way for you?

25 A. I'm not sure whether this is correct.

1 Q. Do you agree with me that the starting point of Milosevic's

2 political agenda in the late 1980s was the restoration of Serbian control

3 over Kosova? Do you agree with that?

4 A. I don't know. I'm not a politician. I cannot answer this

5 question.

6 Q. You are a loyal Serb; yes, you can answer this question. You

7 agree with that, don't you? That was the Milosevic agenda and you agreed

8 with it, didn't you?

9 A. I don't know. I'm not a politician. I don't know how to answer

10 to this question.

11 Q. Truthfully would be a start, Mr. Jasovic. This was about

12 regaining Serbian control of Kosova, wasn't it? That was the agenda of

13 Milosevic, that's what brought him to power, and you were a Milosevic

14 supporter, weren't you?

15 A. Mr. Milosevic -- as I said, I'm not a politician. I respected

16 the laws and the constitution of the Republic of Serbia and I performed

17 my duties in accordance with the constitution and laws, in accordance

18 with the law on internal affairs, the interior ministry, and in

19 accordance with the rules of service of the MUP of Republic of Serbia.

20 I'm just performer of duties.

21 Q. So you are a performer of duties and a respecter of the law and

22 constitution of the Republic of Serbia. Is that your evidence, Mr.

23 Jasovic?

24 A. That is correct.

25 Q. Is that true?

1 A. You mean that I worked in accordance with the laws and

2 constitution of the Republic of Serbia?

3 Q. I mean you broke the law more than you observed it, Mr. Jasovic;

4 that's what I mean. Do you agree with me or do you disagree with me?

5 A. This is not correct that I broke the law. I worked in accordance

6 with the laws of Serbia and the constitution, pursuant to the law on the

7 Ministry of the Interior and the rules of service of the Ministry of the

8 Interior.

9 Q. Perhaps what you are able to agree with me about because you were

10 there is that after March of 1998 in Kosova, the battle really, once the

11 KLA started to emerge, the battle was to restore Serb control, wasn't it?

12 You agree with that, don't you?

13 A. I could not agree with you.

14 Q. You could not agree with me. Well, let's see if you can agree

15 with this: My suggestion is that Belgrade and all its agents, and you

16 were one of them, used the pretext of fighting the insurgency of the KLA

17 to begin a new campaign of ethnic cleansing in Kosova. You were part of

18 a machine whose aim it was to cleanse Kosova of Kosovan Albanians. Do

19 you agree or do you disagree?

20 A. I do not agree and this is not correct.

21 Q. You and your colleagues I suggest, Sparavalo in particular,

22 Vojinovic and your men were part of Belgrade's policy and process to

23 ethnically cleanse Kosova. That is what you were about in 1998, and

24 before and after it, I suggest. Do you agree or disagree?

25 A. I do not agree because this is not correct. I already said that

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1 I worked in accordance with the laws and constitution of the Republic of

2 Serbia.

3 Q. I suggest that you and your colleague -- colleagues and the men

4 under you intimidated innocent civilians. Do you agree or do you

5 disagree?

6 A. I disagree because I could not intimidate anybody. I worked in

7 an office of the secretariat of the interior of the Republic of Serbia.

8 Q. I suggest that you and your colleagues mistreated innocent

9 members of the Albanian community. Do you agree or to you disagree?

10 A. That is not correct. It is up to you to have your opinion.

11 Q. I don't hold opinions; I put a case. I suggest you tortured

12 innocent members of the Albanian community. Do you agree or do you

13 disagree?

14 A. I disagree with this.

15 Q. I suggest you murdered members of the Albanian community, you and

16 your colleagues. Do you agree or do you disagree?

17 A. I put it to you that we did not kill Albanians.

18 Q. I suggest to your face, as I suggested about you many months ago

19 from this very position I stand in now: You were a butcher. Do you

20 agree or do you disagree?

21 A. This is not correct. I disagree.

22 Q. Was the SUP part of the Serbian state machine? Do you agree with

23 that at least?

24 A. I had my remit and as regards this question, you should address

25 this question to the chief of the secretariat of the interior in

1 Urosevac.

2 Q. Is that David Gajic?

3 A. Could you repeat the question, please?

4 Q. Is that David Gajic, the person you've just referred to, the

5 chief of the secretariat of the interior in Urosevac?

6 A. At that time chief -- you mean in 1998?

7 Q. Yes.

8 A. Chief of the secretariat of the interior in Urosevac was Bogoljub

9 Janicevic.

10 Q. Well, I'm asking you. You worked for it. Was SUP part of the

11 Serbian state machine, yes or no?

12 A. I don't know how to answer to this question.

13 Q. Well, truthfully, Mr. Jasovic, would be a start. You worked for

14 it. You were a member of it. You were a commander in it. Was it part

15 of the state machine? You do understand what I mean by that, don't you?

16 A. I already said, my remit was to work in accordance with the laws

17 and the constitution of the Republic of Serbia, pursuant to the law of

18 the Ministry of the Interior of the Republic of Serbia and in accordance

19 with the rules of service of the Ministry of the Interior of Serbia.

20 Q. In your statement to the investigators of this Tribunal, you

21 indicated that one area of your work came under the heading of political

22 delinquency. What's that, political delinquency, Mr. Jasovic?

23 A. Following the orders of the senior officer, the chief of the

24 secretariat, together with colleagues from state security, I worked on

25 tasks concerning the establishment of KLA staffs or headquarters on

1 identifying the top brass of the KLA.

2 Q. Doesn't political delinquency mean that you treated as an enemy

3 everyone who didn't agree with you? Isn't that what it means?

4 A. Could you repeat the question, please?

5 Q. Certainly. A political delinquent is someone who doesn't agree

6 with the Serbian view of the world? That's the reality, isn't it?

7 A. Political delinquent, in my opinion, is a person who kidnaps

8 people, maltreats, tortures people.

9 Q. In your statement to the ICTY, paragraph 5 of it, you say this:

10 "Following the protest in 1989 and 1990, the Albanian population demanded

11 independence. The Albanians demanded their own constitution and refused

12 to go to school and work under the laws of the Republic of Serbia. As a

13 result of this, most of the Albanians gave up their positions, not only

14 in the Police, but also in other working places."

15 Is it your serious and honest evidence that Albanians simply

16 walked away voluntarily from their jobs or were they rather forced out,

17 Mr. Jasovic? Which is the truth of it would you say?

18 A. The truth is this: I will start, sir, with the secretariat of

19 the interior in Urosevac. We begged our colleagues to remain in their

20 posts, and in all these circumstances, some of them remained in service,

21 continuing with their tasks and their jobs.

22 Q. What about the teachers, doctors, people like that? Did they

23 just walk away from their jobs? Did they just walk out or were they

24 forced out? Students from universities who couldn't complete degrees,

25 did they just walk away, Mr. Jasovic, or were you and your colleagues

1 forcing them out by your treatment of them?

2 A. The Ministry of the Interior is not in charge of forcing anybody

3 out of their job. We never did that and we would never do that.

4 Q. That's a lie, I suggest. That is a simple lie. What do you say?

5 A. I'm telling you that it is true that Albanians were not forced

6 out of their jobs. I -- when it comes to the education system, I cannot

7 recall correctly. There were three or four contentious cases, because

8 those holding those jobs did not want to accept the curriculum of the

9 Republic of Serbia. They continued working under the Kosovo curriculum.

10 I'm not a politician. I don't know how to continue explaining this.

11 Q. Well, let's get to an area where you're a bit more comfortable or

12 at home. If you're not at home in politics, let's talk about informers.

13 Now, being in the position you were in in the 1980s and 1990s, you, of

14 course, were working in the field, as you would describe it, of

15 counter-terrorism. Is that right?

16 A. You mean the end of 1989 and the beginning of 1990?

17 Q. And onwards, and once the KLA emerged in the late 1980s. There

18 was counter-terrorism you were dealing with, wasn't it, as far as you

19 were concerned?

20 A. That's not correct. Yesterday I pointed out that together with a

21 colleague, an Albanian, I was in charge of the line of work dealing with

22 interethnic conflicts.

23 Q. And then you got involved in the line of work dealing with the

24 KLA, didn't you?

25 A. According to orders -- pursuant to orders from the chief of the

1 secretariat together with the state security service I worked on the

2 tasks I have described.

3 Q. Which included the KLA, didn't it?

4 A. Yes, that's correct.

5 Q. The KLA, as far as you were concerned, were a bunch of criminals,

6 weren't they?

7 A. For me, the KLA was an illegal terrorist organisation.

8 Q. Criminals?

9 A. Can you clarify this? A criminal can be a burglar or a

10 pickpocket.

11 Q. Mr. Jasovic, try and take where you're sitting seriously for a

12 moment, will you? You know exactly what I mean. You regarded the KLA as

13 a bunch of criminals. Counter-revolutionaries. That's what they were,

14 weren't they?

15 A. When KLA staffs were established, they were all established with

16 a view to carrying out terrorist activities against members of the MUP of

17 the Republic of Serbia, the Army of Yugoslavia. And as I said yesterday,

18 they dealt very harshly with loyal Albanians.

19 Q. Let's -- sorry. Carry on.

20 A. Or Albanians who were working in state-owned enterprises and

21 institutions.

22 Q. Let's focus for a moment or two on some of this terminology you

23 use. Loyal Albanians and cooperative Albanians. You used the word

24 "cooperative Albanians" in your statement. Sparavalo, who made a

25 statement to this Tribunal, used the word "loyal Albanians." Does that

1 mean the same thing to you?

2 A. To me, a loyal Albanian is an Albanian who did not oppose the law

3 and the constitution of the Republic of Serbia, but rather respected the

4 law and the constitution of the Republic of Serbia.

5 Q. Did the world eventually respect the law and the constitution of

6 the Republic of Serbia, Mr. Jasovic? I have in mind March 1999 when the

7 bombs started to drop.

8 A. I don't know how to answer this question.

9 Q. No. Let's talk about another distinction that you draw when

10 you're dealing with informers between a friendly connection and an

11 operative connection. Do I understand you to be saying that a friendly

12 connection is somebody who came in themselves voluntarily to give you

13 information? Am I right about that?

14 A. You see, a friendly contact or connection is a person I

15 associated with or socialised with. And a friendly contact, for example,

16 while we were socialising said to me, I have heard about such-and-such a

17 case.

18 Q. Yesterday you distinguished such a person from somebody who you

19 called an operative connection - and it's page 26, line 11 of the

20 unrevised transcript - when you said this: "An operative connection can

21 be a source who a not registered, a person to whom I give specific

22 assignments."

23 So do I understand you to be saying, Mr. Jasovic, that an

24 operative connection is someone you send out to do your dirty work for

25 you?

1 A. An operative connection is a person who is not a registered

2 contact; he is not sent out on to the field. But -- he is not linked to

3 investigating a particular crime. He is given a specific task or --

4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: He is linked to

5 investigating a particular crime.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And he is given a specific task to

7 help discover the perpetrators of a particular crime. And this is not a

8 registered contact because all contacts -- well, it wasn't only Serbs who

9 used contacts. Every country in the world uses contacts.

10 MR. TOPOLSKI:

11 Q. Did you send people out into the community to commit crime in

12 order to inform on others?

13 A. I didn't, no --

14 Q. Do you find that funny, Mr. Jasovic, do you?

15 A. I'm telling you I didn't.

16 Q. Or is your laughter the laughter of embarrassment because you did

17 do such a thing and you wouldn't have the courage now to admit it, would

18 you?

19 A. No, I'm not embarrassed. I carried out my duties conscientiously

20 and properly and in accordance -- and honourably.

21 Q. Can -- sorry, I didn't want to interrupt you. Did you want to

22 say something else? Did you want to add to the list of adjectives?

23 A. Conscientiously, honestly and honourably. That's how all my

24 colleagues worked as well.

25 Q. Conscientiously, honestly and honourably. Did you and your

1 colleagues on the morning of April 11, 1994 conscientiously, honestly and

2 properly attach electrodes to an 18-year-old and electrocute him in

3 Urosevac police station? Did you do that, honestly, conscientiously and

4 properly, Mr. Jasovic?

5 A. What was the date?

6 Q. Oh, you need a date for this, do you? Well, the date, Mr.

7 Jasovic, is the 11th of April of 1994. The initials of the boy concerned

8 were F. E., and he lived with his mother and his younger brothers.

9 "They ordered me to take off my pants" -- listen to me, please,

10 then you can answer. "So they pulled them off. They tied my hands

11 behind my back with my belt. The one held down my head. The other sat

12 on my legs. They stacked wires from that apparatus that looked like a

13 phone in my ears and on my sex organs. The pain was horrible."

14 The 11th of April, 1994. Was that you and your colleagues

15 conscientiously, honourably, and properly carrying out your duty for the

16 Serb state, Mr. Jasovic?

17 A. On the 11th of April, 1998, the secretariat of the interior in

18 Urosevac was dislocated to certain houses and places. It is not correct

19 that physical force or other forms of torture were used against this

20 person.

21 Q. Thank you for the answer. The date I put the 11th of April,

22 1994. Not 8, 4. Do you want to change your answer now? Pardon?

23 A. No. It didn't happen in 1994 either, no.

24 Q. Didn't happen.

25 A. No. That's not true.

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1 Q. Right. Such a thing -- such a thing Dragan Jasovic would have no

2 part of. Is that your evidence, Mr. Jasovic? I want to be clear about

3 it.

4 A. I would never participate in dirty work and I would never

5 overstep the boundaries of my authority.

6 Q. We shall see some examples of people who have sworn statements to

7 this Tribunal that you did just that, Mr. Jasovic. And I'll come back to

8 it.

9 I wonder if I could draw a distinction between friendly and

10 operative connections of yours. Isn't the difference really and in

11 reality between those who volunteer to come in and see you and those you

12 drag in off the streets, torture and force to work for you? Isn't that

13 the difference?

14 A. I never forced anyone to give any kind of information. For me,

15 that would not be good information; it would be incorrect information if

16 it was given under duress.

17 Q. That's what I suggested at the beginning, really, Mr. Jasovic.

18 This was only part of it, this information-gathering pretext. The point

19 was that you were about intimidating and terrifying and getting rid of

20 Albanians. One of the ways to do it was to behave in the way you and

21 your colleagues did. Ethnic cleansing by any other name, Mr. Jasovic.

22 That's what I suggest you were about. You disagree?

23 A. This is not correct, no.

24 Q. Is it a mere coincidence that your one and only named registered

25 source between 1986 and 1998 is dead? Is it really your evidence you

1 only had one in all those years?

2 A. Yes, it's correct.

3 Q. That's true evidence, is it, one registered informant in 12 years

4 of policing, and he's dead so we can't ask him anything, you see. That's

5 the point. Just one, Mr. Jasovic?

6 A. I had one registered informant; that's true. Not in 12 years of

7 service, but a full 30 years of effective service as of the 1st of July.

8 Q. One registered informant in 30 years of effective service. Is

9 that what you're saying?

10 A. Yes, that's correct.

11 Q. Could you just have tab 17, please, in front of you. Turn that

12 up. We're not going to look at the content; it's just that I want to use

13 it as a jumping-off point for a question. Just have it in front of you

14 for convenience's sake.

15 You spoke about this yesterday and you told us yesterday that the

16 four people who are mentioned as the statement-takers were yourself,

17 Sparavalo, Janicevic and Antic. Do you remember telling us about this

18 yesterday?

19 A. Yes, it's correct that we took this statement.

20 Q. Sorry to interrupt you. And because is it that I --

21 A. It's correct that we took the statement, Momcilo Sparavalo,

22 Srboljub Vojinovic, Miroslav Antic and me.

23 Q. Because I make the suggestion to you loudly and clearly, I hope,

24 for you to understand, Mr. Jasovic, that you in SUP were all part of the

25 state machine. Do I understand you to say yesterday that you and

1 Sparavalo were from public security and the other two gentlemen were from

2 state security. Is the evidence you gave us yesterday, is that correct?

3 A. Yes, I said that yesterday and it is correct.

4 Q. So, it would be fair to say in general terms, wouldn't it, Mr.

5 Jasovic, that as an outsider looking in on this situation here, that

6 really what you're doing is public and state security, working together

7 hand in hand with Belgrade. Would you agree with that? In general

8 terms, would that be a fair description of the situation you were in?

9 A. Public and state security cooperated in Urosevac; that's correct.

10 Q. And under the umbrella, the overall leadership and, I would

11 suggest, guidance of Belgrade and the Serb authorities there. Would you

12 agree with that? In general terms, Mr. Jasovic.

13 A. As for Belgrade, I don't know. As I said, I was only a performer

14 of duties. I was a crime policeman, an inspector. And with respect to

15 this question, you can ask my superiors, the chief of the Urosevac public

16 security station, Bogoljub Janicevic.

17 Q. And you were just following orders, were you?

18 A. I was working according to the law and the constitution of the

19 Republic of Serbia.

20 Q. So --

21 A. And I did all my work pursuant to orders from the chief of the

22 secretariat.

23 Q. Let's just consider for a moment or two together your

24 statement-taking procedures. You told us yesterday, transcript page 10,

25 line 10, and I quote you: "I had my own method of work."

1 Do you remember telling us that yesterday?

2 A. Yes, I remember.

3 Q. Does that involve having a gun on the desk and sticks in the

4 corner?

5 A. I still don't wear a pistol. I don't carry one and I didn't

6 carry it then either. I did not have a truncheon because it's uniformed

7 policemen who carry truncheons.

8 Q. It's bigger than a truncheon what I had in mind. I'm

9 recollecting what a witness told us a few weeks ago from that very chair.

10 "Big stick in the corner and all that Jasovic has to do is just point to

11 it. That's enough."

12 Did you have that in the corner of your desk, of your room, Mr.

13 Jasovic? A stick?

14 A. It's not correct. I don't remember having any kind of stick

15 there.

16 Q. Is it a coincidence that the phrase "so-called KLA" keeps

17 occurring in all of the witness statements that you take and it's your

18 phrase that you use to describe the KLA, "the so-called KLA?" Is that

19 phrase repeating itself a mere coincidence, Mr. Jasovic?

20 A. "The so-called KLA" is an expression that is used because it was

21 not a legal organisation.

22 Q. I wonder why a farmer from the Albanian Kosovan countryside would

23 use the phrase "so-called KLA" in a statement made to you, unless of

24 course you were putting the words in his mouth. Would that be right?

25 A. The persons who made statements used that expression. I can say

1 it was not a real army; it was a so-called army.

2 Q. Oh, I see. That's what it means. Very well. Mr. Jasovic, I

3 suggest that you had then and you have now a pathological hatred of all

4 things Albanian. Do you agree with that?

5 A. I don't agree because I have relatives, family connections with

6 persons of Albanian ethnic origin. And I am not capable of hating

7 anyone, whether Albanian or Macedonian or Slovenian, or English for that

8 matter.

9 Q. Some of your best friends are Albanian. Is that it?

10 A. Yes, that's correct. I still have several friends who call me on

11 the phone nearly every day from Skopje, from Urosevac, from Pec.

12 Q. Well, let's examine together --

13 A. From Kacanik and other places.

14 Q. Let's examine together for a few moments if we may, please,

15 whether there is any substance in this firm suggestion that I have made

16 that you have a pathological hatred of Albanians, did then, and do now.

17 I want to look at what I suggest is some manifestations of that hatred in

18 action. First of all, are you aware of an organisation in your home

19 country called the Council for the Defence of Human Rights and Freedoms?

20 A. And where is the headquarters? I have heard about certain

21 humanitarian organisations but --

22 Q. Pristina.

23 A. I can't remember. No, I'm not aware of it.

24 Q. Are you aware that -- or you may not be if you haven't heard of

25 the organisation. Have you ever heard of the fact that that

1 organisation, a legitimate and proper organisation, I suggest, has

2 reported into the activities of police stations during -- before and

3 during the war and the stations you worked at are included in that

4 report. Are you heard about such a document?

5 A. No --

6 Q. You haven't.

7 A. I haven't heard of it, no.

8 Q. Ferizaj, Urosevac, is a place where you worked, isn't it?

9 A. Yes, Urosevac, not Orahovac. I was there only once.

10 Q. Between 1991 and 1999, this organisation has come across,

11 supported by medical evidence, 449 victims of torture, of which 371 of

12 them, 82 per cent, passed through your police station when you were

13 serving there. Would you care to comment, Mr. Jasovic?

14 A. I don't know anything about this. These persons did not pass

15 through my office, I'm sure.

16 Q. We'll see about that. By the way, what room did your office have

17 as a number in that police station? Room what was it? 81?

18 A. No. It was on the 3rd floor, number 59.

19 Q. Who worked in 81?

20 A. I can't remember now. It was a big building, a large

21 secretariat, and I can't remember the numbers of everybody's office. I

22 really can't remember.

23 Q. The age ranges of the persons on --

24 A. Excuse me. I think -- I think 81 was on the 4th floor, but I

25 can't be sure. I can only guess.

1 Q. Did anybody ever --

2 A. If you told me the name of the person.

3 Q. Oh, we'll come to names, I assure you. We'll come to names. Did

4 anyone ever go out the window of the fourth floor, Mr. Jasovic?

5 A. On the third floor, operative officers, inspectors of public

6 security worked and I am 100 per cent certain that no one ever went

7 through the window because that was the public security. It was the

8 state security that was on the fourth floor and I think number 81 was on

9 the fourth. I can't be sure but --

10 Q. [Previous translation continues]... did they go out the window

11 of the fourth floor, Mr. Jasovic, if they didn't go out the third?

12 Presumably the fourth is higher.

13 A. I don't know.

14 Q. You don't know. Let's just look at the age range.

15 A. I don't know.

16 Q. Don't know. Let's look at the age range of 441 of people over

17 eight years, which, if my math serves me right, is an average of one a

18 week passing through your station. They age between 31 to 40. 58 per

19 cent of them had significant bruisings on their bodies. It is medical

20 opinion that those bruising and injuries were caused by a combination of

21 or were at least consistent with clubs, fists, rifle butts, pistol butts,

22 metallic bars, wooden sticks, baseball bats, and electric shock.

23 Responsible for any of that, Mr. Jasovic?

24 A. I didn't do any of that. I'm speaking about myself and Momcilo

25 Sparavalo.

1 Q. Right. Do you know a man called Mustafa --

2 A. Certainly.

3 Q. Man called Afrim Mustafa. Afrim Mustafa was born on the 16th of

4 April, 1983, and to Jonathan Sutch, an investigator of this Tribunal,

5 he's made a statement. Do you know this name? Do you know this name?

6 A. I don't know. No, I can't recall.

7 Q. Well, in January 1999 at the time of the Racak massacre, he was

8 16. He was taken to your police station for interrogation. He was

9 accused of being a member of the KLA. There was box in a room with a

10 switch and some wires attached to it. Your room, Mr. Jasovic, had a box

11 with some wires attached to it?

12 A. That's not correct. It's certainly not correct. I'm talking

13 about myself and Mr. Momcilo Sparavalo. We had no box and no wires. I

14 know nothing about this.

15 Q. "The first time I touched the wires, nothing happened. But when

16 I touched the wires a second time, one of the men turned the switch and I

17 felt an electric shock. I started to cry and scream. The men began to

18 shout at me: 'You're a member of the KLA.' I only cried and screamed.

19 I was so afraid. The men continued to shock me for ten minutes. They

20 continued to hit me on my hands with sticks. I didn't give them any

21 information because I wasn't able to. One of them was writing something

22 on the computer. Eventually one of the men said: Let him go. He's a

23 child."

24 Ring any bells with you, Mr. Jasovic, this torture of a

25 16-year-old boy in your building in January 1999? You may have heard the

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1 screams. Do you remember this?

2 A. I don't remember.

3 Q. If you don't remember him, how about Muharem Xheladini who also

4 made a statement to Mr. Sutch, investigator of this Tribunal who was

5 lifted off the streets in Shtime in January 1999, accused of being in the

6 KLA. He was taken to room 51. Which floor is that on, Mr. Jasovic, 51?

7 A. I said a moment ago that it's hard for me to tell which room

8 number was on which floor. I'm sure it's probably on the second floor.

9 It might be on the third, but I'm not sure.

10 Q. Well, that's an interesting answer because this witness says it

11 was your office. Your name was on the door.

12 A. This is not correct because the room of my office for over ten

13 years is 59.

14 Q. 59.

15 A. In which I worked.

16 Q. Right.

17 A. This is correct, 59.

18 Q. 59.

19 A. 51. I --

20 Q. All right. Well --

21 A. Not 51.

22 Q. Let's read on and see if you remember taking this young men to

23 59. "Three other men whom I don't know were also present in the room."

24 So this is Jasovic plus three. "I told the men that on the previous day,

25 16th January, I was in Racak and I helped move bodies to the mosque. I

1 told the men I'd seen 45 corpses. Subsequently I was sent to a smaller

2 room. There the police asked me how the KLA obtained its food. I

3 responded I didn't know. Then Jasovic sent me to the basement."

4 Do you remember sending someone to the basement who didn't know

5 how about the KLA got their food, Mr. Jasovic?

6 A. This is not correct that I sent persons to the basement. I don't

7 know what basement is being referred to.

8 Q. Well, he describes it in a very-carefully taken statement taken

9 by an experienced investigator.

10 "I was placed in a room in the basement. It was about six metres

11 long. There were four men present and they urged me to accept what they

12 said. They wanted me to accept that a particular person from Racak had a

13 rocket launcher. I told them that was incorrect.

14 "When I didn't accept what they said, someone gave me an order to

15 -- gave them an order to beat me. Jasovic stopped them, said, I'll come

16 back and give an interview again. Jasovic told me they would let me go

17 if I returned -- agreed to return on the 22nd of January. I agreed and

18 they let me go."

19 Do you remember it now, Mr. Jasovic?

20 A. I don't remember. I don't know which person you're referring to.

21 Q. I've given you the name Muhadin -- of course I accept that

22 hundreds have passed through your hands, but this person's name is

23 Muhadin Xheladini.

24 A. Not hundreds of people, apart from friends. I could not remember

25 all the Albanian names.

1 Q. One of the --

2 A. Excuse me. Could you repeat your question. What was you asked

3 me?

4 Q. Well, I asked you whether you remembered letting him go on the

5 basis that he would come back again.

6 A. I don't recall.

7 Q. He was a bit concerned about things, was this person, because he

8 saw blood on the floor of the basement that you'd taken him to. Was

9 there blood on the floor of your basement, Mr. Jasovic?

10 A. I can guarantee you that in that basement - if you mean the

11 detention room which is usual feature in every secretariat - I never

12 entered that room. This is a fact. I never entered that room.

13 Q. You said there is a detention room in the basement room of the

14 building of the secretariat, is there? That's what goes on down there,

15 detention, is it? Is that right?

16 A. You see, I'm talking about the detention room because each

17 institution within the secretariat of the international -- interior,

18 drunk violators of the public order. I cannot tell you exactly how long

19 a person can be detained until they sober up if there is suspicion that

20 they would repeat the violations of public order in a cafe, et cetera.

21 But regarding the purposes here, we did not keep people in detention

22 room. If they were to be interviewed they were either let go or criminal

23 charges were brought against them, depending and in agreement with the

24 chief of the secretariat whether summary proceedings were applied or

25 persons would be let go.

1 Q. You see, neither of these two people I've referred to so far were

2 arrested for being drunk, Mr. Jasovic, they were arrested for allegedly

3 being involved in some way with the KLA.

4 Let's move on to the third person, shall we? Shemsi Emini, date

5 of birth 1967, has also made a statement to this Tribunal. He tells the

6 Tribunal in a witness statement that he had been to the funeral in Racak

7 in February of 1999 but he was stopped by the police and he was brought

8 to your police station and interrogated. And when he told the policemen

9 that he was from Racak, one of them said, How is it possible you're from

10 Racak when everyone -- all the people were killed there? He said he was

11 going to a funeral, the burial of the people who were killed by the

12 police. And they responded: What police?

13 Is this you, Mr. Jasovic, speaking to this man, 1967-born? So he

14 would be 32 or so by now.

15 A. I did not leave my office. I did not arrest that person, as you

16 put it, at a certain location, maybe in the street or any other location.

17 I don't know.

18 Q. There were two policemen in the room, he goes on, "who had

19 baseball bats or objects similar to baseball bats. They began to beat me

20 for about ten minutes. Then they would question me some more. Then they

21 would start to beat me again, asking about different people who lived in

22 Racak. They would ask whether a certain person was a member of the KLA."

23 Baseball bats, did you use those?

24 A. I did not possess any baseball bats or any other clubs or sticks.

25 Q. Let me show you some examples of your handiwork. I would like

1 you to look at some photographs.

2 MR. TOPOLSKI: With the kind assistance of the usher, there are

3 bundles of these for Your Honours and for the witness.

4 Your Honour, may I indicate that my intention is to prove these

5 paragraphs as a positive part of my case when the appropriate time comes.

6 Of course, I have disclosed copies of these and their provenance

7 informally at least to Mr. Whiting.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Topolski.

9 MR. TOPOLSKI: May I ask when Your Honour is taking the next

10 break?

11 JUDGE PARKER: At about 20 to, quarter to, depending on the flow

12 of things.

13 MR. TOPOLSKI: Very well.

14 Q. The first photograph is of a gentleman called Besim Zymberi, who

15 bears the marks of the work of your police station on his buttocks and

16 his legs in the first two photographs, Mr. Jasovic. Do you recognise

17 him?

18 A. I don't know this person.

19 Q. Did you inflict injuries like that on people with your baseball

20 bat?

21 A. First of all, I am talking here on behalf of myself and Momcilo

22 Sparavalo. I did not possess in my office any baseball bats or clubs or

23 sticks so therefore I could not inflict light or graver injuries to

24 anybody, including Mr. Momcilo Sparavalo.

25 Q. Look at the next one, Xhavit Zariqi, a series of paragraphs, July

1 1998, brutally assaulted, I suggest. A photograph of his foot of what

2 must be a cigarette burn to the right ankle. Grotesque photographs of

3 injuries, I suggest inflicted either by you personally or by colleagues

4 of yours, Mr. Jasovic. You deny it, do you?

5 A. I responsibly state that this person Xhavit Zariqi did not enter

6 my office.

7 Q. What about the the last one in the series? He's an older

8 gentleman, Mehmet Kashtanjeva. I hope I haven't grotesquely

9 mispronounced his name. Look at the injuries to his back. Your work?

10 A. This is not my work.

11 Q. Well, let me ask you this: If it be this case that all or any of

12 these people, Mr. Jasovic, came by these injuries in your police station,

13 would you like to apologise to them now? They all were Albanians, by the

14 way, before you answer the question.

15 A. I did not inflict any injuries on these people, either light or

16 grave or serious injuries.

17 Q. Is that the answer to my question? Did you understand my

18 question?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You understood my question, didn't you?

21 A. Did I inflict any injuries on them? This is how I understood it.

22 Q. [Previous translation continues]... no, the question was -- I'll

23 give you one more chance. The question was: If they came by their

24 injuries in your police station, if they did, would you like to apologise

25 to them now?

1 A. I did not do that and there's no need for me to apologise.

2 Q. You have a pathological hatred of everything Albanian, don't you?

3 A. This is not correct. I recently mentioned that I have family

4 connections with Albanians and I can prove that in the Pec area, where I

5 was born.

6 Q. As far as interrogations were concerned, they weren't just

7 alleged terrorists that you interrogated, were they, they were also, I

8 suggest, members of political parties; members of humanitarian rights

9 associations; musicians, professors, the intelligentsia; they came

10 through your police station from time to time, such people, did they not?

11 A. In the 1990s when the teachers called people to resist teachings

12 and courses with the Serbian curriculum, I don't remember which were

13 detained but they were released. I can guarantee that no physical force

14 was applied to them, no clubs, et cetera. There was several professors.

15 I cannot recall their names.

16 Q. I'm going to put to you the names in a moment. But in the

17 meantime with the assistance of the usher I want to show you one page, a

18 photocopy of a document.

19 MR. BLACK: Could I have a chance to see this, please?

20 MR. TOPOLSKI: Well, let's see -- Your Honour, I want to see

21 whether the witness recognises this as his own handwriting. It's in

22 Serbian. If he doesn't, it can go no further. If he does, I have copies

23 available.

24 JUDGE PARKER: I think normally, Mr. Topolski, before it goes to

25 the witness, in view of the request, counsel can see it.

1 MR. TOPOLSKI: Certainly.

2 MR. BLACK: Thank you very much.

3 MR. TOPOLSKI:

4 Q. Would you just please look at this, Mr. Jasovic, and tell me

5 whether it's your handwriting.

6 A. Certainly not. I have a neat handwriting. This is what I can

7 say. This is horrible what I see.

8 Q. So that is not your handwriting?

9 A. This is not mine. I couldn't say whose it is. I would say so if

10 I knew, but it isn't mine.

11 Q. It's not Sparavalo's, for example?

12 A. No, it is not his. He never wrote information in a notebook. I

13 can vouchsafe for him. I don't know whose this handwriting this is. If

14 I knew, I would tell you. I can maybe -- this is -- I can try to

15 ascertain that in Leskovac regarding the handwriting.

16 Q. Thank you. We'll do our own investigations. Thank you very much

17 for the offer.

18 In the time that permits before the break, in regard to the kinds

19 of people that were passing through your hands, I have a list here and

20 I'm going to ask you whether you recognise any names. Ruzhdi Jashari, a

21 member of the Council for Human Rights. Did you interrogate and mistreat

22 him?

23 A. Ruzhdi Jashari never was interviewed by me. I know from

24 intelligence received that he was a correspondent, some kind of

25 correspondent and that he moved in that area. I don't know Ruzhdi

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1 Jashari. He never saw him and he never entered my office. That I can

2 guarantee you -- apart from hearing of him.

3 Q. Yes. I'll put their names and the occupations insofar as I'm

4 aware of them. I'll put them all to you, Mr. Jasovic, bearing in mind

5 that you suggest that you've never mistreated anybody.

6 A. That's correct, I never.

7 Q. See if these names ring any bells. My suggestion is you did or

8 members of your staff did. Ahmet Ahmeti, who's a member of the LDK

9 Leading Committee for Stimlje; Fehmi Mujota, a magistrate; Ali Gashi;

10 Nusret Musliu; Mufail Salihu, businessman --

11 A. Can I --

12 Q. Yes, interrupt me if you recognise a name.

13 A. Ahmet Ahmeti, I know that he used to come. The other Fehmi

14 Mujota, I think it's Fehmi Mujota, if he is the one who is now chairman

15 of the municipality in Stimlje, if it goes for him. I do believe that

16 there are some mistakes in the spelling of the family names.

17 Q. I'm sorry about that. Well, yes, he is that person you referred

18 to. And he was interviewed and ill treated in your offices on the 19th

19 of May 1999.

20 A. Fehmi Mujota.

21 Q. Yes. Salihu, a businessman; Shaban Halimi a member of the LDK

22 Committee for Stimlje; Avdyl Jakupi, a policeman; Azem Haxhiu, a teacher

23 of physical education; Abdyl Avdyli, a chairman of the parliamentary

24 party.

25 How about Raif Rushiti, of Mother Teresa Organisation? Did they

1 come in for your attentions, Mr. Jasovic, 11th of March, 1996?

2 A. I know Ahmet Ahmeti.

3 Q. Ali Sadriu, chairman of the LDK for Stimlje; Nazmi Shahini,

4 member of the LDK Committee for Stimlje. Mus Musliu, a folk musician

5 gets mistreated on Christmas Day 1995 in your police station. And

6 finally, Zaim Hysenaj, forgive my pronunciation, a teacher of music comes

7 in for treatment on the 7th of November, 1995. Do you want to admit to

8 any of those, Mr. Jasovic?

9 A. I cannot accept -- I -- this is not correct that they were

10 mistreated. The only person I know from this list is Ahmet Ahmeti.

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 A. Maybe I can make use of the statement.

15 MR. BLACK: Is it necessary to go into private session for this?

16 MR. TOPOLSKI: No. Unless you want me to.

17 MR. BLACK: Can we go in for just a moment and I can explain my

18 reasoning.

19 MR. TOPOLSKI: Certainly, of course.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

21 [Private session]

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2 [Open session]

3 MR. TOPOLSKI:

4 Q. We've just been talking about a particular individual and whether

5 or not you were aware he went to jail or not regarding information you

6 received concerning a meeting that Isak Musliu is said to have attended

7 in Racak.

8 MR. TOPOLSKI: Your Honour, would that be a convenient moment or

9 -- I can do one topic in three minutes.

10 JUDGE PARKER: I think this will be a convenient time to break.

11 MR. TOPOLSKI: Very well.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Is there a value in the bundle of photographs and

13 the sheet of paper shown to the witness being marked for identification?

14 MR. TOPOLSKI: Well, Your Honour, certainly the former. As the

15 witness has rejected the latter as anything to do with him, it seems that

16 I have no evidential basis to have that even marked for identification.

17 JUDGE PARKER: I don't know; if you were later to prove it had

18 something to do with him, we would need to have it clearly identified

19 now, you see.

20 MR. TOPOLSKI: I see. No, Your Honour is ahead of me --

21 JUDGE PARKER: Marked for identification doesn't mean --

22 MR. TOPOLSKI: No, thank you. For both. Thank you very much.

23 THE REGISTRAR: The photographs -- 14 photographs would be marked

24 for identification DM4 MFI and the statement would be DM5 MFI.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Is it correctly described as a statement? I'm not

1 sure of the nature of it.

2 MR. TOPOLSKI: I would have to give evidence to answer Your

3 Honour's question. I've had someone who speaks the language look at it.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Notes or a statement?

5 MR. TOPOLSKI: Notes.

6 THE REGISTRAR: For the correction, DM5 would be notes, DM5 MFI.

7 MR. TOPOLSKI: Thank you.

8 JUDGE PARKER: We would adjourn now and resume at 5 past 6.00.

9 --- Recess taken at 5.44 p.m.

10 --- On resuming at 6.15 p.m.

11 JUDGE PARKER: I'm sorry, Mr. Topolski, that there was a

12 redaction we had --

13 MR. TOPOLSKI: Yes --

14 JUDGE PARKER: Got noticed. And we are just reached the moment

15 when you can start. I was here as a filler, as they say, as a filler on

16 the stage.

17 MR. TOPOLSKI: Thank you.

18 Q. Mr. Jasovic, I have to slow down because I was speaking too

19 quickly at times before, so forgive me.

20 I want to ask you - and I do not go into private session for it,

21 and I have spoken to Mr. Black about this, one more question about Ahmet

22 Ahmeti. All right. You mentioned yesterday having some documents with

23 you. Do you have any documents with you regarding that person?

24 A. May I look?

25 Q. Yes, of course you may.

1 A. Are you referring to a criminal report?

2 Q. Any document referring to that person, please.

3 A. I don't have any documents because this document was at the Hague

4 Tribunal office in Belgrade and I haven't brought with me the things that

5 I got from the Hague Tribunal, I mean statements and other documents.

6 Q. In relation to persons who may be providing information to you,

7 whether willingly or unwillingly, did they have code names as far as you

8 were concerned?

9 A. [No interpretation]

10 Q. Are you --

11 MR. TOPOLSKI: I didn't hear an --

12 THE INTERPRETER: No.

13 MR. TOPOLSKI: Thank you.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They did not have any code names.

15 MR. TOPOLSKI:

16 Q. Are you absolutely sure about that?

17 A. Yes, I am.

18 Q. Did any of your colleagues operate informants with code names?

19 A. As I said before, I don't even know what operative contacts or

20 collaborators my colleagues had. For conspirational [as interpreted]

21 reasons, my colleagues and I didn't know about each other's contacts.

22 Q. You have continually denied all suggestions of ill treatment at

23 your centre of operations. If it wasn't you, who else did the

24 interviewing of people during the people the Tribunal are concerned with?

25 Was it just Sparavalo and your other colleague or were there more of you

1 than that?

2 A. Interviews with parties were conducted by workers of the state

3 security. As for the public security, it was Mr. Sparavalo and me.

4 Q. Okay.

5 A. And I wouldn't know whether there was anybody else. I can't

6 remember now.

7 Q. Speaking of you I want to put one more name and one more incident

8 to you. Avdi Hyseni on the 1st of February, 1999, was detained, I

9 suggest. Avdi Xhevat Hyseni. Does that mean anything to you?

10 A. I'm not familiar with the name Avdi Hyseni or Avdi Xhevat Hyseni.

11 Q. Maybe this will ring a bell. You interrupted colleagues who were

12 beating him. You said that he had to confess that he was a UCK commander

13 otherwise at midnight you would cut his head off. Now do you remember?

14 A. I don't remember, no. It's not true that anyone was told their

15 head would be cut off.

16 Q. You told him to go and get a list of people, a list of arms of

17 the KLA in Petrovo if he wanted to stay alive, telling him, and I quote:

18 "This is not Kosovo. This is Serbia."

19 This is you speaking, Mr. Jasovic, I suggest. Do you deny it?

20 A. This is not correct. I never used such language.

21 Q. In the very chair you are sitting in now, this morning was a

22 witness in the case of the former president, Milosevic. The name was --

23 is -- still is Marinkovic. Do you know who I'm talking about, Danica

24 Marinkovic, Her Honour Judge Marinkovic?

25 A. I know the judge Mrs. Marinkovic. When the chief of the police

1 station of Kacanik was killed on the 25th of February, 1999, we went

2 together to the village of Kacanik to carry out an on-site investigation.

3 Q. Yes, I was going to suggest, in very general terms she was your

4 boss, wasn't she? On the judges that would supervise your

5 investigations. That's right, isn't it?

6 A. She wasn't my boss.

7 Q. [Previous translation continues]...

8 A. No. In general terms, she was not my boss. She was an

9 investigating judge of the district court in Pristina. And during the

10 on-site investigation, it was the investigating judge who was in charge

11 of the on-site investigation. I don't know whether I've been clear. She

12 was not my boss; she was simply the leader of the on-site investigation

13 together with a team from the Urosevac SUP.

14 Q. The extraordinary coincidence, Mr. Jasovic - and I indicate this

15 to you because it's the basis of my next few questions - by the most

16 extraordinary coincidence this woman was giving evidence here this

17 morning from the very chair you sit in in this very room. And Mr. Nice,

18 prosecuting for the OTP, was cross-examining her about ill treatment by

19 police officers during the war. Do you follow me?

20 A. Yes, yes.

21 Q. What I have in front of me - very kindly, if I may say so and

22 very swiftly provided by Mr. Whiting, I having drawn to his attention

23 this extraordinary coincidence - is a transcript of her evidence this

24 morning. So that's the basis of some of the questions I'm going to be

25 asking you. Do you follow?

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1 A. Yes, yes.

2 Q. First of all, let me ask you, do you know somebody called Natasa

3 Kandic? If you don't know her personally, do you know who she is?

4 A. I don't know her personally. I know that she works in some sort

5 of humanitarian organisation, but I don't know which one and I don't know

6 what she does there.

7 Q. Well, she is the director of the Humanitarian Law Centre in

8 Belgrade, and her law centre produced and produces, I think, reports

9 regarding humanitarian law issues and did so before, during, and after

10 the war. You know that, don't you?

11 A. I don't know what she does.

12 Q. I just --

13 A. But I know that she worked in a humanitarian organisation. I

14 don't know what she does there.

15 Q. Mr. Nice described her this morning as "the conscience of some

16 Serbs, as a journalist, an investigator, a humanitarian lawyer who was

17 prepared to say things that were true that was beyond the courage of

18 others to publish." I quote Mr. Nice this morning. Would you be able to

19 comment about that, Mr. Jasovic?

20 A. I agree that the truth always comes out. I have never opposed

21 the truth. I have never been in favour of untruth.

22 Q. Well, if that answer is to mean that you're prepared to accept

23 that material produced by Natasa Kandic and her well-known organisation

24 contains the truth, may I put to you that what I put to you before the

25 break regarding the electric shock of the 18-year-old boy comes from her

1 report called: Spotlight Report No. 16, February 1995. You remember you

2 had a bit of bother with the date of the 11th of April, 1994. Do you

3 want to change your evidence regarding the electrocution of that boy, now

4 that I've told you that?

5 A. No, I don't. I don't want to change anything. I did not

6 electrocute anyone. I did not torture anyone and I don't know what Ms.

7 Natasa Kandic investigated.

8 Q. Mr. Nice, speaking on behalf of the Office of the Prosecutor,

9 suggested this this morning to Judge Marinkovic - I don't have a page

10 reference but I have a time for it, 09.46.55. And I quote Mr. Nice:

11 "The second thing I'm going to suggest to you is that it was not

12 uncommon, it may have been very common for accused persons to be beaten

13 and even tortured while they were detained at your order and therefore in

14 your charge. Is that true?"

15 You see, Mr. Jasovic -- just a moment. You see, Mr. Jasovic, the

16 Office of the Prosecutor this morning was suggesting to a witness in this

17 room that people like you tortured detainees. I'll ask you again for the

18 umpteenth time: Are you prepared to admit that you did that, yes or no?

19 A. No, I'm not prepared to do that because it's not true. My

20 colleague, Mr. Momcilo Sparavalo, and the colleagues mentioned in these

21 statements, we did not do this.

22 Q. Mr. Nice also put to Judge Marinkovic a document dated December

23 of 1994 which appears - it's at 10.00 precisely on the transcript if it's

24 being followed elsewhere - which appears to relate to this topic and it's

25 a report of a doctor called Dobrinanin [sic]. Mr. Jasovic, I --

1 A. Dobricanin.

2 Q. Oh, you know him?

3 A. I don't know him personally, but I saw him on television.

4 Q. Is he a man who respected?

5 A. Yes, he is.

6 Q. Well, that's interesting because he examines someone who had been

7 through your police station, a man called Alija Isak, or at least from

8 the village of Urosevac. And he describes the injuries on this man:

9 "Alija Isak, from Urosevac... the skin of the palm of the hand livid

10 greenish... the forearm... suffused with blood. Left thigh purple,

11 greenish, yellowish. Ankle, peeled off, bare, dry skin, brown-red in

12 colour. Opinion: Haematoma." That's bruising in plain English.

13 "Inflicted by heavy blow from blunt heavy mechanical implement."

14 Described as a minor injury. Mr. Nice asked the judge whether she

15 received that report.

16 Did you perpetrate these injuries on a man called Alija Isak from

17 Urosevac?

18 A. I did not perpetrate any injuries and I know nothing about this

19 case.

20 Q. Have you heard of a man called Bouckaert, Peter Bouckaert, works

21 for the Human Rights Watch? Do you know him?

22 A. This is the first time I've heard of him.

23 Q. He's made a statement to this Tribunal when he tells it that on

24 the 25th of September, 1998, together with a gentleman called Fred

25 Abrahams he interviewed the family of Rexhep Bislimi, Cen Dugolli, and

1 Shaip Qerqini. Do you know any of those names?

2 A. This is the the first time I've heard of this last name, Qerqini.

3 Q. What about the Dugolli?

4 A. I've heard about a Dugolli in statements. I don't know any of

5 them, but I've heard that the Dugolli were members of the KLA from the

6 area of Petrastica. Dalib Dugolli, I did know him and his son, Agron

7 Dugolli, who was killed on the 28th of November, 1997.

8 Q. I'm talking about Cen, C-e-n Dugolli. Do you know about him?

9 A. No, no.

10 Q. Are you sure about that?

11 A. I don't know the others. I'm sure. I'm sure I don't know him.

12 Q. Well, to this person, Mr. Bouckaert, these three persons have

13 apparently said that they were arrested, tortured, and abused while in

14 custody. And you know nothing about that?

15 A. No. I don't know anything this.

16 Q. You gave us evidence yesterday that you had met, sat in a cafe,

17 and had a drink with Isak Musliu. Do you remember telling us that

18 yesterday?

19 A. Yes, I do.

20 Q. Are you seriously suggesting that Isak Musliu would have sat in a

21 cafe with you at any time and drunk anything in your company? Are you

22 seriously suggesting that?

23 A. Then I would have sat with him. I don't know about now.

24 Probably not.

25 Q. Oh certainly not, Mr. Jasovic, not now. That's a lie. It's

1 either an innocent mistake or a deliberate lie; which is it, Mr. Jasovic?

2 You've never sat in a cafe --

3 A. Sir, I'm telling the truth. I'm never afraid of the truth, and I

4 said that it was Srboljub Vojinovic who introduced us because I didn't

5 know this gentleman.

6 Q. Isak Ibrahimi might have been someone you sat in a cafe with with

7 Vojinovic. Both of those people having a mutual interest in pigeons.

8 Could you be mistaking Isak Ibrahimi with Isak Musliu, or are you

9 deliberately changing the names around? Which is it?

10 A. I didn't change the names around intentionally. I don't know Mr.

11 Isak Ibrahimi. I was not interested in pigeons and I know that Srboljub

12 Vojinovic did associate with people who kept pigeons, yes.

13 Q. Mr. Jasovic, are you proud of the work you did in Kosovo in

14 1998/1999?

15 A. I can speak on behalf of my colleagues and myself. Yes, we are

16 proud.

17 Q. I suggest you see that you are part of a -- were part of a brutal

18 machine playing your part and playing your part with relish in

19 intimidating, torturing, and worse members of the Albanian community as

20 part of Milosevic's programmes of ethnic cleansing. Do you follow my

21 suggestion?

22 (redacted)

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5 A. I don't know. I'm serious, I've never heard of this person. If

6 I had, I would have told you. I have nothing to hide.

7 Q. You sound a little nervous about this name, Mr. Jasovic, if I may

8 suggest.

9 A. No. I'm not nervous; I'm never nervous.

10 Q. [Previous translation continues]... name?

11 A. No. I'm not nervous-type person. My organism is not susceptible

12 to being nervous about untruths.

13 Q. Well, I haven't told you anything he said yet, so how do you know

14 they're untruths?

15 A. This is not correct what you say, that I perpetrated crimes,

16 torture, and what not.

17 Q. Do you know what the phrase "whistle-blower" means?

18 A. No.

19 Q. No. Someone who was on the inside prepared to talk publicly

20 about what was going on on the inside of an institution or organisation.

21 That's a whistle-blower, Mr. Jasovic. Do you follow me?

22 A. I did not understand the question.

23 (redacted)

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11 Q. Are you aware of the suggestion that there were many examples of

12 murders committed by MUP, state security, or SUP, and those murders were

13 blamed on the KLA during the war. You're aware of that, aren't you?

14 A. This is not correct, so it can't be known to me.

15 Q. Were you part of the attack that took place in Drenica in March

16 1998, personally?

17 A. I'm telling you that I did not leave my office, my desk. I did

18 not go out into the field.

19 Q. Ever? Is that what you're saying, you never went into the field?

20 A. I did not out into the field except for on-site investigations,

21 in exceptional cases when the commander of the police station in Kacanik

22 was murdered -- well, mainly I did not go out to conduct on-site

23 investigations. That part of the job was -- for that part of the job,

24 people from the crime -- blood [as interpreted] crime were in charge.

25 Q. I'm not talking about going out and investigating things; I'm

1 talking about going out and perpetrating crimes. Are you aware of a

2 special unit called the Red Berets?

3 A. Special units, Red Berets, I heard over the TV that such a unit

4 existed in Belgrade on TV. On TV.

5 Q. Were you ever part of it?

6 A. Could you repeat the question.

7 Q. Were you ever part of that unit?

8 A. Never. I don't even know what kind of uniforms they wore.

9 Q. Well, Red Beret might be a bit of a giveaway. Were you ever

10 aware of a unit wearing red berets?

11 A. I told you I heard about red berets on TV.

12 MR. TOPOLSKI: I think Mr. Black wants to say something.

13 MR. BLACK: I'm sorry to rise and it's not directly in relation

14 to this. Can we go into private session briefly.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

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20 [Open session]

21 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

22 MR. TOPOLSKI:

23 Q. Again with the kind assistance of the usher, Mr. Jasovic, and I'm

24 very nearly finished, I just want to show you a document and a copy for

25 Mr. Black --

1 MR. TOPOLSKI: A copy for Mr. Black, please. And could you give

2 that one, it's got the ERN number.

3 Q. Now, Mr. Jasovic, is this document a statement in the Serbian

4 language?

5 A. That's correct. That's in Serbian.

6 Q. So sorry to interrupt you. And looking at the form of it and

7 it's general layout and type-face and so on, does this look to you like a

8 document that would have been taken by a member of the same organisation

9 that you worked for?

10 A. I don't know. I have not taken this statement. I don't know who

11 took it.

12 Q. No, I'm not suggesting you did. I'm -- for help elsewhere in the

13 case, Mr. Jasovic, in the interests of time and economy, I'm just asking

14 you for your help --

15 MR. BLACK: Excuse me, before we have this too much further, do

16 you have this in an English translation we can see?

17 MR. TOPOLSKI: No.

18 Your Honours, it's not a statement from -- directly on point as

19 far as the witness is concerned. I assure the Tribunal there is a

20 serious point of the question because there are names on the second page

21 that are involved in our case, about a dozen lines down for Mr. Black's

22 assistance.

23 Q. Mr. Jasovic, you don't recognise this as a statement that looks

24 very much like it has come from SUP?

25 A. It says here "minutes," but I did not take -- and in public

1 security I never noticed statements where minutes would be used as a

2 term. My statements were laid out directly. I don't know which

3 secretariat this came from. I could only give you wild suggestions. It

4 says "4th of July." This is what I can see.

5 Q. Yes.

6 A. And it says here that it was taken in the -- on the premises of

7 CRDB Prizren.

8 Q. Yes. Beyond that you can't help us obviously. Well, thank you,

9 I don't ask you any more about it.

10 A. I could not because this could be a centre for the state security

11 and this is as much as I can help you. So the acronym stands for centre

12 of state security in Prizren.

13 Q. Thank you very much.

14 MR. TOPOLSKI: Your Honours, could we just have this noted for

15 identification purposes only at the moment, please?

16 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.

17 THE REGISTRAR: That will be DM6 MFI.

18 MR. TOPOLSKI: Thank you.

19 Q. Mr. Jasovic, I finish, really, where I started with you, but I

20 suggest that you were with relish a man carrying out more crime than you

21 were solving. Do you follow what I'm suggesting to you?

22 A. It is clear to me, but this is incorrect.

23 Q. I suggest, finally, that you had then and indeed you have now a

24 pathological hatred of all things Albanian.

25 A. Never in my life because I have family ties in the area of Pec

1 with Albanians. I've never committed them nor would I do such things

2 now. I can, with full responsibility, say that even today I have many

3 Albanian friends at Urosevac, Pec, Kacanik, and in Stimlje itself with

4 whom I maintain almost daily contacts over the phone.

5 Q. Yes.

6 MR. TOPOLSKI: That's all I ask. Thank you.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Topolski.

8 I'm not sure who's volunteering next. Is it unreasonable to

9 suggest that you could use the next ten minutes, Mr. Mansfield?

10 MR. MANSFIELD: It's not unreasonable, however material has come

11 to light within the last hour in Albanian, so it has to be translated,

12 which touches on a topic -- in fact the topic that I wish to ask this

13 witness about. So I was going to ask if I might have overnight to look

14 at it before I begin.

15 JUDGE PARKER: We will adjourn then and resume tomorrow at 2.15.

16 MR. TOPOLSKI: Your Honours, may I just say as a matter of simple

17 courtesy. As I think Your Honours know, I have a professional engagement

18 that takes me back home indeed for the next week or so, and I may not be

19 here until the end of the Prosecution case. I leave my client in the

20 very safest hands of Mr. Powles and others. Your Honours, of course, if

21 I'm needed then arrangements are already in place in London for that to

22 happen, should it arise, but with my apologies. I hope Your Honours will

23 excuse me over the next week or so.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Topolski.

25 We will adjourn.

1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.51 p.m.,

2 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 7th day of

3 April, 2005, at 2.15 p.m.

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