Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 47

1 Wednesday, 25 September 2002

2 [Second Initial Appearance]

3 [Open session]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.21 p.m.

6 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Good afternoon to everybody.

7 With all due respect and gratitude for the people who will be translating

8 this simultaneously, I ask Madam Registrar to please announce the case.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-00-41-PT, the Prosecutor versus

10 Pasko Ljubicic.

11 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. First of

12 all, the appearances, please. Mr. Harmon first, please, who will have to

13 leave in 15 minutes, if I understood you properly. We will all attempt to

14 be as brief as possible, to work as fast as possible. But regardless of

15 that, we have to -- [In English] So please would you give the appearances.

16 MR. HARMON: My name is Mark Harmon. I represent the Prosecutor's

17 Office. So appearing with me today to my right is Magda Karagiannakis,

18 also representing the Prosecutor's Office, and particularly after I leave

19 should this proceeding go back twenty minutes to 3.00. To my left is

20 Ms. Kamala Janakiram. Thank you.

21 JUDGE EL MAHDI: Thank you. Et maintenant je tourne a la Defense.

22 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. My name is

23 Tomislav Jonjic, and I will be representing the accused Pasko Ljubicic.

24 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Please sit down. I

25 would specify that I am Judge El Mahdi. I have been designated to

Page 48

1 Chamber 1 by the order of 3 December 2001. I am a Pre-Trial Judge. I am

2 wishing you good day. Can you hear me in a language which you understand?

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I can hear you, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] You can follow all the debates in

5 a language which you can understand.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I can understand completely.

7 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] I am going to be very brief.

8 Today's hearing will be devoted to permit the Defence, and more exactly to

9 permit the accused, to be apprised of the modified, amended indictment.

10 As you know - and now I am addressing counsel for Defence - you have

11 apprised Mr. Ljubicic of the fact that the initial indictment has been

12 amended in the sense of a better organisation of the indictment, which

13 should enable a better understanding of the facts and the counts of the

14 case so that the accused may have a better defence, an opportunity to

15 defend himself better. Therefore, this is not a new indictment. This is

16 a modified or reorganised indictment in order to better protect the rights

17 of Defence.

18 I think, Mr. Jonjic, that I have spoken about what the meaning is

19 of this amended indictment and what this new presentation of this

20 indictment means. And today we are here to give to your client the

21 possibility, a new occasion, to -- it seems that there is a sound problem.

22 It seems that there is a sound problem.

23 Can you hear me, Mr. Jonjic?

24 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

25 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] I hope you will have had an

Page 49

1 opportunity to speak to your client and to explain to him what is the

2 meaning of the new or modified indictment so that he is in a position

3 today to argue his case, to plead. I know -- I am aware of the fact that

4 he had pleaded initially and that there were no new counts brought. But

5 the formulation and the organisation, the structure of the new indictment

6 resulted, finally, in the fact that the counts are now 15 instead of 11.

7 But the charges are the same, in a more detailed form, in a way which

8 should enable the Defence and in the opinion of the Chamber to better

9 prepare its case. Therefore, I want to be sure that your client is

10 apprised of what it means, this amendment of the indictment, and that he

11 is ready today to plead about the charges either in the form of the

12 principal formulation, as it was, or in the present drafting of the

13 indictment, as it is modified now.

14 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] -- The 15th of April in accordance

15 with the motion, according to Rule 72, the accused has received the

16 indictment in the language that he understands. In the meantime, he has

17 of course consulted with his attorney and today he is prepared to plead

18 whether he's guilty or not guilty. If you allow me just for a moment to

19 respond to a question before you have even asked me this question. I

20 spoke about this with my learned friend Mr. Harmon, because he's in a

21 hurry, in order to be as expedient as possible, we have agreed that it is

22 not necessary to read the indictment. So this is all that the Defence

23 wishes to state at this moment.

24 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you. I wish to

25 congratulate the parties for having agreed this way and to have -- for

Page 50

1 having cooperated. This collaboration seems to have been established

2 between the parties.

3 So Mr. Ljubicic, please, I am now going to ask to the court

4 registrar to read the indictment, the counts, and you will now have an

5 opportunity to plead.

6 Do you hear me? Can you hear me? Can you hear me, Mr. Ljubicic?

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So I repeat what I was saying. I

9 am going to now ask the court clerk to read the indictment, and you will

10 have the possibility to plead guilty or not guilty for each charge which

11 is now in the new indictment.

12 So Madam Court Registrar, could you please read the counts.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Count 1: Persecutions on political, racial, or

14 religious grounds, a crime against humanity, as recognised by Articles

15 5(h), 7(1) and 7(3) of the Statute of the Tribunal.

16 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] How do you plead, Mr. Ljubicic?

17 Do you plead guilty or not guilty?

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not guilty.

19 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters find it difficult to hear the

20 accused.

21 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Could you please repeat. You

22 haven't been heard.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not guilty.

24 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, for count 2.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Count 2: An unlawful attack on civilians, a

Page 51

1 violation of the laws or customs of war, as recognised by Articles 3,

2 7(1), and 7(3) of the Statute of the Tribunal and customary law, Article

3 51(2) of the Additional Protocol I and Article 13(2) of Additional

4 Protocol II of the Geneva Conventions.

5 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Mr. Ljubicic, how do you plead,

6 guilty or not guilty?

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, not guilty.

8 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Madam Registrar, next

9 count.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Count 3: Murder, a violation of the laws or

11 customs of war, as recognised by Articles 3, 7(1), and 7(3) of the Statute

12 of the Tribunal and Article 3(1)(a) of the Geneva Conventions.

13 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Mr. Ljubicic, how do you plead,

14 guilty or not guilty?

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not guilty.

16 JUDGE EL MAHDI: Thank you. Madam, Count 4.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Count 4: Murder, a crime against humanity, as

18 recognised by Articles 5(a), 7(1), and 7(3) of the Statute of the

19 Tribunal.

20 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Mr. Ljubicic, how do you plead,

21 guilty or not guilty?

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honours, not guilty.

23 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24 Madam Registrar, count 5.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Count 5: Violence to life and person, a violation

Page 52

1 of the laws or customs of war, as recognised by Article 3, 7(1), and 7(3)

2 of the Statute of the Tribunal and Article 3(1)(a) of the Geneva

3 Conventions.

4 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Mr. Ljubicic, how do

5 you plead, guilty or not guilty.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not guilty.

7 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

8 Please continue.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Count 6: Inhumane acts, a crime against humanity

10 as recognised by Article 5(i), 7(1), and 7(3) of the Statute of the

11 Tribunal.

12 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] How do you plead, Mr. Ljubicic,

13 guilty or not guilty?

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not guilty.

15 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Madam registrar.

16 THE REGISTRAR: Count 7: Murder, a violation of the laws or

17 customs of war, as recognised by articles 3, 7(1), and 7(3) of the Statute

18 of the Tribunal and Article 3(1)(a) of the Geneva Conventions.

19 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Mr. Ljubicic, how do you plead,

20 guilty or not guilty?

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, not guilty.

22 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23 Madam Registrar, please.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Count 8: Murder, a crime against humanity, as

25 recognised by Articles 5(a), 7(1) and 7(3) of the Statute of the Tribunal.

Page 53

1 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Mr. Ljubicic, how do you plead,

2 guilty or not guilty?

3 THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation]

4 THE REGISTRAR: Count 9: Violence to life and person, a violation

5 of the laws or customs of war as recognised by Article 3, 7(1), and 7(3)

6 of the Statute of the Tribunal and Article 3(1)(a) of the Geneva

7 Conventions.

8 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] How do you plead, Mr. Ljubicic?

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not guilty.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Count 10: Inhumane acts, a crime against humanity

11 as recognised by Article 5(i), 7(1) and 7(3) of the Statute of the

12 Tribunal.

13 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] How do you plead, Mr. Ljubicic,

14 guilty or not guilty?

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not guilty.

16 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, will you please

17 continue.

18 THE REGISTRAR: Count 11: Devastation not justified by military

19 necessity, a violation of the laws or custom of war, as recognised by

20 Articles 3(b), 7(1), and 7(3) of the Statute of the Tribunal.

21 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] How do you plead, Mr. Ljubicic,

22 guilty or not guilty?

23 THE ACCUSED: Not guilty.

24 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Madam Registrar.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Count 12: Destruction or wilful damage to

Page 54

1 institutions dedicated to religion or education, a violation of the laws

2 or custom of war, as recognised by Articles 3(d), 7(1), and 7(3) of the

3 Statute of the Tribunal.

4 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Mr. Ljubicic, how do you plead,

5 guilty or not guilty?

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not guilty.

7 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

8 Madam Registrar.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Count 13: Plunder of public or private property,

10 a violation of the laws or customs of war, as recognised by Articles 3(e),

11 7(1), and 7(3) of the Statute of the Tribunal.

12 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Mr. Ljubicic, how do you plead,

13 guilty or not guilty?

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not guilty.

15 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Ljubicic.

16 Madam Registrar, please.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Count 14: Cruel treatment, a violation of the

18 laws or customs of war as recognised by Articles 3, 7(1), and 7(3) of the

19 Statute of the Tribunal and Article 3(1)(a) of the Geneva Conventions.

20 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Mr. Ljubicic, how do you plead,

21 guilty or not guilty?

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not guilty.

23 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Ljubicic.

24 Madam, please continue.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Count 15: Inhumane acts, a crime against humanity

Page 55

1 as recognised by Article 5(i), 7(1) and 7(3) of the Statute of the

2 Tribunal.

3 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Mr. Ljubicic, how do you plead,

4 guilty or not guilty?

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, not guilty.

6 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Ljubicic. Please

7 sit down.

8 [The accused sits down]

9 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] You can remain seated. I would

10 like to specify that you have a right to hear the reading of the

11 indictment as a whole and that the decision which has been made to read

12 only the counts was with the consent of your Defence counsel, which means

13 that you approve the fact that only the counts will have been read out to

14 you and that you have approved this procedure, if I understand matters

15 well.

16 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters cannot hear the accused.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I agree that we should proceed this

18 way. I am familiar with the entire indictment, and I agree to act in this

19 way.

20 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, sir.

21 Now that we have finished this phase of argument and that

22 Mr. Ljubicic has pleaded not guilty, I will now address the parties and

23 ask if they have anything to add, any remarks to make before we start our

24 Status Conference. I will first ask Mr. Harmon.

25 MR. HARMON: I have nothing to add, Judge El Mahdi. I must now

Page 56

1 excuse myself with the Court's permission.

2 JUDGE EL MAHDI: Unfortunately.

3 MR. HARMON: Thank you.

4 JUDGE EL MAHDI: Thank you, Mr. Harmon.

5 [Interpretation] For the Defence, do you have anything to add

6 before we start the Status Conference?

7 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] No, we do not have anything at this

8 point, Your Honour, thank you.

9 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Jonjic.

10 Madam Registrar, could we proceed?

11 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

12 --- Whereupon the Second Initial Appearance

13 adjourned at 2.41 p.m., to be followed by a

14 Status Conference.

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25