Page 71
1 Tuesday, 28 January 2003
2 [Further Appearance and Status Conference]
3 [Open session]
4 [The accused entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 3.00 p.m.
6 JUDGE LIU: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. Could Madam
7 Registrar please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number
9 IT-95-11-I, the Prosecutor versus Milan Martic.
10 JUDGE LIU: May I have the appearances, please. For the
11 Prosecution.
12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Presiding Judge.
13 MR. WHITING: Good afternoon, Your Honour. Alex Whiting, along
14 with Ms. Sabine Bauer and Ms. Diane Boles, case manager for the
15 Prosecution.
16 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. For the Defence.
17 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour.
18 My name is Predrag Milovancevic -- excuse me. Good afternoon, learned
19 friends. My name is Predrag Milovancevic. I am an attorney from
20 Belgrade, a new Defence counsel for the accused Martic.
21 If you allow me just one more word. Mr. Martic received the
22 indictment in his mother tongue. He understood it fully and considered it
23 together with his counsel. So to save time, there is no need to read it
24 out to him. For the same reason, Mr. Martic is ready and willing to plead
25 on all counts of the indictment now. Thank you.
Page 72
1 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. I think you are a little bit
2 early for the procedures, but later on you'll get used to the proceedings
3 of this Tribunal.
4 I'll proceed with the second initial appearance of the accused,
5 Milan Martic, pursuant to Rule 50(B) and 62 of the Rules of Procedure and
6 Evidence of the Tribunal.
7 First, I would like to recall the procedural history of the case.
8 The initial indictment against Mr. Martic was issued by the Prosecutor on
9 the 24th of July, 1995, and confirmed by Judge Claude Jorda on the 25th of
10 July, 1995. The initial indictment contained four counts dealing with the
11 so-called Zagreb bombing. An international arrest warrant was issued and
12 sent to all states.
13 On the 15th of May, 2002, Mr. Martic surrendered to the Tribunal
14 and was transferred on the same day to the Detention Unit of the
15 International Tribunal in The Hague. The initial appearance of the
16 accused was held on 21 May, 2002.
17 On 26 August 2002, the Prosecution filed a motion to request a
18 leave to file an amended indictment.
19 On 2 September 2002, the Prosecution filed a motion to request
20 leave to file a corrected amended indictment. The proposed new indictment
21 contained 19 counts. It also contained two annexes listing victims,
22 divided by incident and location.
23 By a decision of 13 December 2002, the Trial Chamber granted leave
24 to the Prosecution to amend the indictment as proposed in the corrected
25 amended indictment and ordered the indictment to replace the initial
Page 73
1 indictment with respect to all charges. The Prosecution was ordered to
2 file the new indictment. The Defence was granted a further period of 30
3 days in which to file preliminary motions pursuant to Rule 72 of the Rules
4 of Procedure and Evidence in respect of the new charges.
5 The new indictment, which is the subject of the hearing today, was
6 filed by the Prosecution on 18 December 2002. The Defence has not filed
7 any further preliminary motion with regard to the new charges.
8 Mr. Martic, can you hear the proceedings in a language that you
9 understand?
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.
11 JUDGE LIU: And have you received the amended indictment against
12 you in a language that you understand?
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I have.
14 JUDGE LIU: Did you have a chance to read it?
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I have.
16 JUDGE LIU: I understand that your counsel is new. Have you had a
17 chance to discuss it with your counsel, and do you understand the content
18 of it?
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] A couple of days ago, when my new
20 counsel arrived, of course we discussed it and reviewed it.
21 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
22 Pursuant to Rule 62(3) of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence of
23 the Tribunal, you will be called upon to enter a plea of guilty or not
24 guilty on each new count of the indictment. You may do so either today or
25 within 30 days from the initial appearance. If you fail to enter a plea
Page 74
1 within the time frame, the Trial Chamber shall enter a plea of not guilty
2 on your behalf, as stipulated in Rule 62(4).
3 I understand that your counsel has informed this Trial Chamber
4 that you waive your right to read the indictment out. Am I right?
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That is correct, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Are you prepared to enter your
7 plea today?
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am.
9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. I note that the amended indictment
10 contained annex 1 and annex 2 with the names of the victims and the
11 locations. It is my suggestion that only the counts, without the annexes,
12 are read out. Does the accused and the Defence agree to this procedure?
13 Mr. Milovancevic?
14 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. We agree.
15 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Mr. Martic, do you agree?
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I do agree.
17 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. I will ask Madam Registrar to read out the
18 new charges brought against you. Then I will ask you whether you plead
19 guilty or not guilty to the specific charge. Since the initial indictment
20 has been replaced by the amended indictment, I will ask you to enter pleas
21 with regard to all charges contained in the new indictment. Your answer
22 in each case may be "guilty" or "not guilty," as the case may be.
23 Madam Registrar, would you please read each count, please.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour.
25 Mr. Martic, count 1: Persecutions on political, racial, and
Page 75
1 religious grounds, a crime against humanity, punishable under Articles
2 5(h) and 7(1) and 7(3) of the Statute of the Tribunal.
3 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Martic, how do you plead; guilty or not guilty?
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not guilty.
5 JUDGE LIU: Very well. Proceed, please.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Count 2: Extermination, a crime against humanity,
7 punishable under Articles 5(b) and 7(1) and 7(3) of the Statute of the
8 Tribunal.
9 JUDGE LIU: How do you plead; guilty or not guilty?
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I plead not guilty.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Count 3: Murder, a crime against humanity,
12 punishable under Articles 5(a) and 7(1) and 7(3) of the Statute of the
13 Tribunal.
14 JUDGE LIU: Do you plead guilty or not guilty, Mr. Martic?
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I plead not guilty.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Count 4: Murder, a violation of the laws or
17 customs of war, as recognised by Common Article 3(1)(a) of the Geneva
18 Conventions of 1949, punishable under Articles 3 and 7(1) and 7(3) of the
19 Statute of the Tribunal.
20 JUDGE LIU: How do you plead; guilty or not guilty?
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not guilty.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Count 5: Imprisonment, a crime against humanity
23 punishable under Article 5(e) and Article 7(1) and 7(3) of the Statute of
24 the Tribunal.
25 JUDGE LIU: How do you plead, Mr. Martic; guilty or not guilty?
Page 76
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not guilty.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Count 6: Torture, a crime against humanity
3 punishable under Article 5(f) and Article 7(1) and Article 7(3) of the
4 Statute of the Tribunal.
5 JUDGE LIU: Do you plead guilty or not guilty?
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not guilty.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Count 7: Inhumane acts, a crime against humanity
8 punishable under Article 5(i) and Article 7(1) and Article 7(3) of the
9 Statute of the Tribunal.
10 JUDGE LIU: How do you plead, Mr. Martic; guilty or not guilty?
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not guilty.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Count 8: Torture, a violation of the laws or
13 customs of war as recognised by Common Article 3(1)(a) of the Geneva
14 Conventions of 1949, punishable under Article 3 and Article 7(1) and
15 Article 7(3) of the Statute of the Tribunal.
16 JUDGE LIU: How do you plead, Mr. Martic; guilty or not guilty?
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not guilty.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Count 9: Cruel treatment, a violation of the laws
19 or customs of war as recognised by Common Article 3(1)(a) of the Geneva
20 Conventions of 1949, punishable under Article 3 and Article 7(1) and
21 Article 7(3) of the Statute of the Tribunal.
22 JUDGE LIU: How do you plead; guilty or not guilty?
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not guilty.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Count 10: Deportation, a crime against humanity,
25 punishable under Article 5(d) and 7(1) and 7(3) of the Statute of the
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1 Tribunal.
2 JUDGE LIU: Do you plead guilty or not guilty?
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not guilty.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Count 11: Inhumane Acts (Forcible Transfers), a
5 crime against humanity, punishable under Articles 5(i) and 7(1) and 7(3)
6 of the Statute of the Tribunal.
7 JUDGE LIU: How do you plead, Mr. Martic; guilty or not guilty?
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not guilty.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Count 12: Wanton destruction of villages or
10 devastation not justified by military necessity, a violation of the laws
11 or customs of war, punishable under Articles 3(b) and 7(1) and 7(3) of the
12 Statute of the Tribunal.
13 JUDGE LIU: How do you plead; guilty or not guilty?
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not guilty.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Count 13: Destruction or wilful damage done to
16 institutions dedicated to education or religion, a violation of the laws
17 or customs of war, punishable under Articles 3(d) and 7(1) and 7(3) of the
18 Statute of the Tribunal.
19 JUDGE LIU: How do you plead, Mr. Martic; guilty or not guilty?
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not guilty.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Count 14: Plunder of public or private property,
22 a violation of the laws or customs of war, punishable under Articles 3(e)
23 and 7(1) and 7(3) of the Statute of the Tribunal.
24 JUDGE LIU: How do you plead; guilty or not guilty?
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not guilty.
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1 THE REGISTRAR: Count 15: Murder, a crime against humanity,
2 punishable under Articles 5(a) and 7(1) and 7(3) of the Statute of the
3 Tribunal.
4 JUDGE LIU: Do you plead guilty or not guilty, Mr. Martic?
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not guilty.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Count 16: Murder, a violation of the laws or
7 customs of war as recognised by Common Article 3(1)(a) of the Geneva
8 Conventions of 1949, punishable under Articles 3 and 7(1) and 7(3) of the
9 Statute of the Tribunal.
10 JUDGE LIU: How do you plead; guilty or not guilty?
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I plead not guilty.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Count 17: Inhumane acts, a crime against
13 humanity, punishable under Articles 5(i) and 7(1) and 7(3) of the Statute
14 of the Tribunal.
15 JUDGE LIU: Do you plead guilty or not guilty, Mr. Martic?
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I plead not guilty.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Count 18: Cruel treatment, a violation of the
18 laws or customs of war, as recognised by Common Article 3(1)(a) of the
19 Geneva Conventions of 1949, punishable under Articles 3 and 7(1) and 7(3)
20 of the Statute of the Tribunal.
21 JUDGE LIU: How do you plead; guilty or not guilty?
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not guilty.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Count 19: Attacks on civilians, a violation of
24 the laws or customs of war, as recognised by Article 51(2) of additional
25 protocol I and Article 13(2) of additional protocol II to the Geneva
Page 80
1 Conventions of 1949, punishable under Articles 3 and 7(1) and 7(3) of the
2 Statute of the Tribunal.
3 JUDGE LIU: How do you plead, Mr. Martic; guilty or not guilty?
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not guilty.
5 I feel not guilty, and I hope my Defence counsel will successfully
6 prove that in his defence.
7 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much, Mr. Martic. You may sit down,
8 please.
9 May Madam Registrar please take note that Mr. Martic has pleaded
10 not guilty to all counts of the indictment.
11 Prosecutor, you have 30 days to disclose all the relevant
12 documents, pursuant to Rule 62, and the Defence has 30 days to file any
13 preliminary motions.
14 The registrar will be instructed to fix a date for trial when
15 appropriate.
16 I think we have come to the end of this initial appearance. We
17 will now close the further initial appearance of the accused and proceed
18 with the Status Conference, pursuant to Rule 65 bis.
19 Mr. Milovancevic, have you received all the case documents from
20 Mr. Martic's former counsel, Mr. Kastarovic?
21 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, pursuant to the
22 decision of the Registry appointing me new counsel and replacing the
23 previous counsel, I was put into a position and enabled to receive all the
24 documents and materials related to the case on the 31st of January, 2003,
25 immediately before my arrival at the Tribunal. That happened that day,
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1 late in the afternoon that day, because I had a scheduled visit the next
2 day to the accused, so that only here, upon visiting the Registry, I
3 learnt of the previous decision of the 13th December 2002 setting a
4 deadline for the Defence to make its preliminary motions.
5 The preliminary motion by the Defence has, therefore, not been
6 filed to this day. I'm only now in the possession of the said
7 documentation, and I will have to review it upon returning to Belgrade in
8 order to be able to file the preliminary motion. After I have studied the
9 indictment, I believe I will need time to study the documents in the
10 interests of the accused.
11 So my pleading with you, Your Honour, is to have this time allowed
12 to me, 30 days, start running from today. Otherwise, the situation would
13 be unfavourable to the Defence.
14 If I did not understand this correctly, then the Defence will have
15 to file a motion for an extension of time and for filing an objection
16 pursuant to Rule 72.
17 JUDGE LIU: Well, taking into consideration that you just replaced
18 the previous counsel of Mr. Martic and you need the proper time to prepare
19 the case, I've already made a decision orally, saying that the date will
20 run from today. You will have another 30 days to file your preliminary
21 motion on this very issue.
22 Do you have any other particular issues with regard to your
23 representation of Mr. Martic?
24 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] No. Thank you, Your Honour,
25 for the understanding you displayed for my objective situation in which I
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1 found myself as the newly appointed Defence counsel.
2 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down, please.
3 Could the parties then please brief me on the exchanges that have
4 taken place since the last Status Conference and on their efforts to
5 ensure the expeditious preparation of the case for the trial.
6 Could I turn to the Prosecutor first.
7 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, in light of the circumstances of the
8 replacement of counsel, there has not been an opportunity to meet with
9 Mr. Martic's new Defence counsel. However, we have already arranged to
10 meet after this conference to discuss further exchanges of information.
11 Out of an abundance of caution, although the Court's order of 18
12 December 2002 ordered the previous Defence counsel to turn over all of the
13 information to the new Defence counsel, the Prosecution has undertaken to
14 copy all of the documentation that has been turned over to date, organise
15 it, and will provide it to the new Defence counsel today.
16 In addition, the Prosecution is providing a copy of the transcript
17 of the Rule 61 hearing that was held in this case, I believe, in February
18 of 1996, the 27th of February, 1996, and will be providing 23 of the
19 exhibits that were tendered in that hearing. There are 15 exhibits
20 remaining that are with Registry that the Prosecution still needs to
21 acquire and make copies of for the Defence.
22 In other words, as of today, the Prosecution submits that it will
23 have complied not just with its Rule 66(A)(i) obligations to provide
24 within 30 days all of the supporting materials in a language that the
25 accused can understand but, in addition, has gone further and is providing
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1 the Rule 61 material related to this case.
2 Once the Prosecution has an opportunity to meet with the Defence
3 counsel today, I anticipate that cooperation will be full and complete and
4 we will be able to expedite this matter.
5 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. And I hope that meeting between
6 you and Defence will be conducted as soon as possible. We have to move
7 faster in order to facilitate the proceedings of this case.
8 Yes. The Defence. Is there anything you would like to inform me
9 about the preparation of this case?
10 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I informed you a
11 moment ago that based on the decision of the Registry, I took over the
12 documentation. I would like to thank my colleagues from the Prosecution
13 for their very correct treatment of the Defence, the fact that they
14 disclosed to us the complete documentation, which will assist the Defence
15 greatly.
16 As for the new Defence counsel, maybe this information is
17 important for the Court: Immediately after my appointment, I took all
18 reasonable steps to contact my client, and because of the holiday season,
19 that coincided with the day when the court scheduled this Status
20 Conference, so that immediately after receiving this said decision of the
21 Tribunal, I applied for a visit to the accused, familiarised myself with
22 the status quo in this case, and there are no new circumstances I can
23 inform Your Honour about.
24 I would only like to thank you and my colleagues once again for
25 understanding the difficulties I am facing in view of the recent change.
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1 JUDGE LIU: Yes. That's quite understandable. And I can assure
2 you, as a newcomer, I think you need some time to familiarise yourself
3 with the procedures of this Tribunal.
4 You may sit down, please.
5 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE LIU: Are there any other matters that both parties would
7 like to raise at this stage?
8 MR. WHITING: Not from the Prosecution, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. From Defence?
10 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. Thank you.
11 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
12 Mr. Martic, the Status Conference also serves the purpose to
13 enable you to raise any issue in relation to your mental and physical
14 condition. Would you like to bring any such issues or any other
15 particular matters to the attention of this Pre-Trial Judge?
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.
17 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to raise a principal
19 issue, not only on my personal behalf but also on the behalf of my
20 colleagues. Four months ago, when the last Status Conference in my case
21 was held, I raised an issue which concerned the possibility for us for
22 having periodic medical check-ups, every three or six months, and you said
23 that we could, on our own, request this. Some of my colleagues did so,
24 but these check-ups, systematic check-ups, never took place. And they --
25 even if in some cases if they did partially, they never got any feedback.
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1 I discussed the issue with some of my colleagues, some of whom are
2 -- have cancer and are in a very serious situation, and I would like to
3 raise the issue once again.
4 Personally, I saw the physician only eight and a half months ago.
5 I understand that he's very busy and that he cannot come very often. On
6 several occasions I needed some minor interventions, and I wanted to see
7 the doctor but he was not available. I have nothing against the nurse,
8 but no paramedic can replace the physician. These glasses, for instance,
9 that I got were given to me by a nurse. She simply showed up with ten
10 pairs of glasses and she told me to just pick up a pair that suited me
11 best. I mean, no nurse can administer treatment or establish diagnoses.
12 I know that it is not within your province to order any such thing, but I
13 believe that you can launch appropriate initiative in that respect.
14 And there is one more issue concerning the language. I would like
15 the interpretation that I receive to be in Serbian, not in Croatian.
16 That's it, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE LIU: I will entrust Madam Registrar to look into these
18 three matters. The first matter is the periodic check-up of the physical
19 conditions of the client.
20 Well, on the other hand, I have to say that maybe we are from
21 different cultural backgrounds. In my cultural background, if there is no
22 feedback on the physical examination, it is good news. But anyway, I will
23 ask Madam Registrar to look into this matter as well as that pair of
24 glasses. I don't know whether it's suitable for you or not.
25 As for the language issues, to me, an outsider from that region, I
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1 could not distinguish the differences between the two languages. But since
2 you specifically requested, I will ask the interpreters of this Tribunal
3 to take care of it.
4 The next Status Conference will be scheduled within the period of
5 120 days, pursuant to Rule 65 bis of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence.
6 I believe that is all for this Status Conference. I will rise.
7 --- Whereupon the Further Appearance and
8 Status Conference adjourned at 3.33 p.m.
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