1 Tuesday, 28 March 2006
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I be reminded -- it's now your turn for
7 re-examination, Ms. Richterova. Is that correct?
8 MS. RICHTEROVA: Yes, but there will be no re-examination. Thank
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Say that again?
11 MS. RICHTEROVA: There will be no re-examination.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Ms. Richterova.
13 Any questions by you, Judge?
14 WITNESS: VLADO VUKOVIC [Resumed]
15 [Witness answered through interpreter]
16 Questioned by the Court:
17 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Witness, I would like to ask one thing for
19 In the cross-examination you answered the question, but only in a
20 very brief way, if these armed vehicles would have come through the
21 village after the attack and you said this didn't happen anymore, but in
22 the examination-in-chief you mentioned something about the first day after
23 the attack that these vehicles or such vehicles in fact came through and
24 there was some expression of irony or something similar you said. You
25 remember that? Can you maybe explain once more if they came back at least
1 one time and what happened there.
2 A. Yes, Your Honour. On the 5th of August, 1991, after the first
3 attack with 82-millimetre mortar shells at 0600 hours, when the attack
4 stopped at 10.00, those two JNA armoured vehicles started driving through
5 the town again but they were stopped by a crowd of people because the
6 people were up in arms. They were against it; the residents of Saborsko I
7 mean. And from that time on they didn't drive through anymore.
8 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.
9 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: On the same point, was it the people, the crowd,
10 who laughed at them that prevented them from coming through again?
11 A. No, Your Honour. It was they, the crew of the vehicles, who were
12 leering at us, the crowd, the crew of those two JNA transporters.
13 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Thank you. And you spoke earlier in your
14 evidence about an armed clash in Plitvice. Who was this armed clash
15 between? Who was engaged in this armed clash?
16 A. On the 1st of August, 1991, it -- the first armed clash took place
17 in Croatia between the Ministry of the Interior, the Republic of Croatia,
18 and the so-called armed groups, renegade groups, in Plitvice.
19 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: This was in Plitvice?
20 A. Yes, Plitvice.
21 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: The groups that you spoke about that cut off the
22 Plaski and Licka Jesenica road, what ethnic groups were these persons?
23 A. They were wearing camouflage uniforms and JNA uniforms. They were
24 putting up barricades, engaging in the so-called log revolution, and
25 cutting off roads.
1 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: You spoke of a group of 100 men of the
2 independent company of Saborsko and you said they came to defend, not to
3 attack. Why do you say that they came to defend and not attack, and what
4 form did this defence take?
5 A. They were not able to attack because they were coming to Saborsko,
6 an occupied place, an encircled place. They were not attacking, they were
7 defending, because Saborsko at the time was encircled. It was their homes
8 we are talking about, their families. And that's why they came on
9 the 5th.
10 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: This is for my own education. You have spoken
11 variously of Plaski and Plasko. Is it the same place? If not, please
13 A. No, no. That group of 100 or 110 men - we've discussed this
14 before - they were natives of Saborsko who were working in Rijeka or
15 Zagreb and their families, wives and children were still in Saborsko.
16 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Yes. Please go on to explain to me how that is
17 related to Plaski and Plasko. I'd still like to hear if it's a different
18 place or the same place or -- I am not understanding.
19 A. No. The name of the place is Plaski. There is only one place
20 called Plaski.
21 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: And where is it?
22 A. It is located between Ogulin and Saborsko -- or rather, between
23 Josipdol, which is closer, and Saborsko.
24 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Thank you. You said that 80 shells fell
25 before 10.00, and it appears as if they didn't shoot right. And in the
1 evening shells came to the centre of town. What sort of buildings and
2 places were in the centre of the town?
3 A. Right. The shelling started on the 5th of August, 1991 at
4 6.00 a.m., and Saborsko is at a higher altitude than Licka Jesenica.
5 Maybe they didn't have the right coordinates so they didn't manage to hit
6 Saborsko that morning. Their shells fell to the right of the church and
7 the cemetery, that's if they were shooting at Saborsko at all. And
8 towards the evening, they started hitting Saborsko --
9 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: [Previous translation continues] ... what sort
10 of buildings were there -- or what was in the centre of the town?
11 A. It's not actually a town; it's a village. In the centre there
12 were schools, churches, family houses right along the road. The whole
13 place is seven kilometres long all in all, and the houses line the road,
14 the high street.
15 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Thank you. Now, you said in Korenica you were
16 beaten badly and cut in the face. Was anything said whilst you were being
17 beaten or before you were being beaten?
18 A. Not much talking was done while the beating was going on. Yes,
19 there were obscenities uttered. There was no personal talk.
20 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: This is by the person or persons who beat you?
21 A. That evening when they slashed my face with a knife and they
22 knocked my teeth out, only one person was beating me while the others were
23 standing around laughing.
24 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: And this is a last question. You said you were
25 told that it was your colleagues who were beating you. Who told you that
1 it was your colleagues who were beating you, other detainees, the militia,
2 or who told you such?
3 A. Right. That was the military airfield Bihac on the border between
4 Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina. The JNA military policemen said to
5 take a group of five. We had been detained in the warehouse, and he told
6 us: You are being beaten by your colleagues from Zagreb, renegades from
7 the MUP of Croatia.
8 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Thank you very much. No further questions.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Judge.
10 If I may just pick up from one of the questions that the Judge on
11 my right asked.
12 Would you like to show us the injuries that you sustained when
13 they cut your face and broke your teeth?
14 A. I can do that, Your Honour. Right here and they also slashed my
15 face. My skin was black and the scars still remain, but since they
16 slashed me on the head, I was already black and blue by that time so the
17 scars are smaller. If they had slashed me now when my face is without any
18 bruises, it would show differently. I don't know if you can see the
19 scars, and the bridge of my nose was broken as well. It doesn't function
20 really well.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you very much. You mentioned in your
22 testimony that around the 6th/7th of August, 1995, you returned to
23 Saborsko and that when you got to Saborsko you found it overgrown and it
24 was a ghost town. Do you remember that evidence?
25 A. Right. That was the first time, Your Honour, that I came back to
1 Saborsko after 1991. There was nothing to be seen in Saborsko except
2 shrubbery and brush, burnt-down houses, and two heaps of rubble standing
3 in the places where the church and the school building used to be. The
4 houses were mainly wooden and burned down completely, and the rubble left
5 over from the church was clearly visible. It is documented. There are
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you know what became of the population that used
8 to occupy Saborsko?
9 A. Yes, I know. We started looking for mass graves at that time
10 because during the four years while Saborsko was occupied we were
11 gathering information as to possible locations of those mass graves. And
12 in 80 per cent of the cases, our operative information proved to be
13 correct, the operative information we collected during the occupation.
14 And we gathered it while we were in Ogulin.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: What happened to that population?
16 A. In 1991, after Saborsko fell on the 12th of November, 1991, they
17 were killed and thrown into mass graves, into pits, or they were burned
18 down together with their homes. There was several locations.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Right at the beginning of your testimony you
20 estimated the population at about 800 to 850 people. Am I to understand
21 that you're saying the entire population was wiped out?
22 A. Yes. Some of the populace fled. Those who were unable to flee,
23 elderly men and women who remained, were killed, while those who fled ran
24 through the wooded area called Kapela or in the other direction via Bosnia
25 and Herzegovina, in the direction of Rakovica.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: If I've understood you well, on the -- there was an
2 attack around the 5th of August, 1991, and some people fled in buses. Is
3 that correct?
4 A. Yes. That was on the 5th of August, while Saborsko fell on the
5 12th of November, in the autumn. But the first attack was on the 5th of
6 August, and some people fled even then. The roads were still open for
7 traffic at Slunj.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now I understand. But you also testified that some
9 of the people who fled on the 5th of August, 1991 returned?
10 A. Yes. Those people came back. They had only fled to the
11 neighbouring village of Rakovica, about 15 kilometres away along the
12 forest-path, and they came back immediately. They ran away in the night
13 of the 5th and came back on the 6th, because the place had not yet fallen,
14 had not yet been occupied by that time.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: And do I understand you to be saying when Saborsko
16 fell on the 12th of November, some people fled, some were killed?
17 A. That's correct.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you know what happened to those that fled?
19 Where are they?
20 A. Some ran to Karlovac, some to Zagreb, some to Ogulin. They went
21 to live there because Saborsko was occupied for four years. It was under
22 the so-called Republic of Serbian Krajina all the way until the military
23 police Operation Storm. So they were absent from Saborsko from November
24 1991 until 1995. In that period, they stayed in the free territory of the
25 Republic of Croatia, Zagreb, Rijeka, Karlovac, and then some went to third
1 countries of course.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: After 1995, where did they stay?
3 A. In 1995, exhumations started and the restoration of the village --
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I interrupt --
5 A. -- some people returned.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Some of those people who fled returned. Okay.
7 Now, you also talked of an attack on Rakovica. Do you know -- did you
8 know the population of Rakovica before it was attacked?
9 A. The population of Rakovica was mostly Croat. There was some
10 Serbs, too, but the majority were Croat.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes. All I'm -- do you know the numbers? Are you
12 able to estimate the population in Rakovica before the attack?
13 A. I don't know. That's a neighbouring place; it's larger than
14 Saborsko. I don't know what its population was.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: But you said it was partially destroyed. Do you
16 remember that evidence?
17 A. Correct. It's not 100 per cent destroyed, like Saborsko; it was
18 destroyed 60 to 70 per cent maybe.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Do you have any knowledge as to -- or an
20 estimation of the number of people killed in Rakovica?
21 A. No. I have no knowledge about the number of killed in Rakovica
22 and neighbouring villages.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: You talk of neighbouring villages. Were there any
24 other neighbouring villages which were destroyed?
25 A. The neighbouring villages were not destroyed at the time because
1 in that area there are some villages and hamlets populated by Serbs, at
2 least they were populated by Serbs in 1991, so they were not destroyed at
3 the time. The only thing that was destroyed were Serb houses in Saborsko.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Serb houses in Saborsko. Okay. We have discussed
5 Saborsko. What I do want to find out from you is: Are you aware of any
6 other surrounding villages around Saborsko, Rakovica, which were also
7 destroyed, and if so, what are they?
8 A. I don't know anything about that because I didn't live in those
9 places, no.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. In that event, thank you so much.
11 Any re-examination -- questions arising out of the questions from
12 the --
13 MS. RICHTEROVA: Yes, I have a couple of clarifications.
14 Further examination by Ms. Richterova:
15 Q. Mr. Vukovic, to the question of Judge Nosworthy you were talking
16 about clashes in Plitvice and you stated: This first clash occurred on
17 1st of August. Previous in your testimony you mentioned 1st of April.
18 When these clashes -- first clashes in Plitvice took place?
19 A. Perhaps it was a slip of the tongue. The 1st of April, 1991.
20 Q. The other question was about your beating in Bihac, and that you
21 were told that your colleagues from Zagreb did the beating. What did you
22 understand when told your colleagues were those who beat you? Who were
23 these colleagues? Were they Serbs or Croats?
24 A. These were colleagues, Croatian policemen of Serb ethnicity, who
25 had left, who, rather, became renegades vis-a-vis Zagreb. So they went to
1 the Bihac airport Zeljava, so these are these four or five former
3 Q. And the last question you answered to Judge Moloto that Serb
4 houses in Saborsko were destroyed. How many Serb houses were there in
6 A. In Saborsko there were four Serb houses, four family houses.
7 Q. And were all these four houses destroyed?
8 A. Those that were down by the road itself were destroyed. Those are
9 the houses that were destroyed. I don't know about one particular house
10 which is further up, whether it was destroyed or not. But the ones down
11 there were destroyed, torched and burned down. So I know this particular
12 one where the family got killed, and they actually went to stay with my
13 aunt and uncle and that's how I know.
14 Q. When was it?
15 A. That happened on the 12th of November, 1991, in the morning hours
16 when the fall actually took place. I was not there, but then later on I
17 learned from people that on the morning of the 12th of November, 1991 the
18 attack started at 0900 hours.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 MS. RICHTEROVA: I have no further questions.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Ms. Richterova.
22 Mr. Milovancevic.
23 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence has
24 just a few short questions.
25 Further cross-examination by Mr. Milovancevic:
1 Q. When you were answering the questions of the Prosecutor during
2 this additional examination about your colleagues from Zagreb who beat
3 you, that was the explanation that you were given. You said that these
4 were people who were renegades from the MUP of Croatia. Can you say
5 whether at that moment when you were at the airport belonged to the
6 civilian or military police?
7 A. According to the statement made by the military policeman who was
8 on duty at Zeljava airport, the military airport of Zeljava that is, he's
9 the one who told us that they were our colleagues, these five who were
10 walking around the airport and the barracks, and they beat not only me but
11 other prisoners as well.
12 Q. I understand that, but I'm asking you the following: At that
13 moment, did they belong to the army or the police? They were at a
14 military facility. An airport, an airfield is a very well-guarded area.
15 Is it a military area? Were they civilians or military people?
16 A. The airport was not a well-guarded military zone. There were
17 groups of Martic's men there. There was the JNA there. There were all
18 sorts of things there. It wasn't only military policemen there. I don't
19 know what. So there was a mix, and that's where they beat us. And we
20 sang songs there in the warehouse, you know which ones, so it was not
21 well-guarded at the time.
22 Q. You just didn't answer the question. Do you know? If you do, you
23 can tell us. If you don't, you can tell us that. At that moment these
24 people left the MUP of Croatia, so were they in the police or in the
25 military at that moment? If you know. If you don't, just say you don't
2 A. I don't -- well, they weren't in the police. They were in the
3 military, in the army. The airport, Zeljava, is a JNA airport.
4 Q. Thank you, thank you. When answering the questions of the Court
5 as to what was in the centre of the village, you said the church and the
6 school. Did you state yesterday that members of the special police of
7 Duga Resa, who on the 5th of August, 1991, that is to say, the evening
8 after this first attack, left Saborsko? Did you not say that they were
9 staying at that school?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. When responding to the additional question put by the Prosecutor a
12 few moments ago, you said that these Serb houses in Saborsko were the
13 first ones to be hit during the military operations. Did I understand you
15 MS. RICHTEROVA: I'm sorry, he didn't say they were the first one
16 to be hit.
17 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] I'm going to change my question
18 or withdraw this question, if I misunderstood what the witness was saying.
19 Q. So I'm going to ask you the following: Well, those were the first
20 houses roughly that were burned. What did you mean? You said that there
21 were a few houses by the road. Perhaps one was further up and you didn't
22 know what happened to that, but your uncle and aunt came there and you
23 gave some explanation what happened to these houses. Could you please
24 tell us what that was?
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: The witness never said they were the first houses
1 roughly that were burned. The word "first" was never used. I think
2 rephrase the question, Mr. Milovancevic.
3 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. You said that these Serb houses were destroyed. When and where
5 and with what? Do you know?
6 A. They were destroyed in 1991, during the attack on Saborsko. So on
7 the 12th of November, 1991.
8 Q. Where are these houses, in which part of Saborsko? What's the
9 name of that neighbourhood?
10 A. At the very beginning of Saborsko, that's where they are, and
11 Borik is the name of that particular location, the hamlet of Borik.
12 Together with Croat houses, too, not all of them were Serb houses.
13 Q. Do you know how they came to be damaged? I am not asking only
14 about those Serb houses. It doesn't matter that they were Serb houses,
15 but the houses where your uncle and aunt came, they are at the beginning
16 of the village. Did I understand you properly?
17 A. That's right. They're neighbours, my aunt's and uncle's houses at
18 the beginning of the village, and then this other house that belonged to
19 Selaja, also at the beginning of the village. So these are two
21 Q. Were all of the houses destroyed that morning?
22 A. Yes. All the houses were destroyed that morning during that
24 Q. Did I understand you correctly when you said that your aunt and
25 uncle came to those Serb houses that morning, to their neighbour's to seek
1 protection, but nevertheless they fell victim?
2 A. Yes, they came to their neighbour’s. Now, did they go to seek
3 protection or not? Well, neighbours are neighbours, but at any rate that
4 is where they fell victim.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] No further questions.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Milovancevic.
8 Thank you very much, Mr. Vukovic. Thanks for coming to testify.
9 You are free to go. Now you are excused. You may stand down.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
12 [The witness withdrew]
13 MR. WHITING: May I proceed?
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may proceed.
15 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I have an oral application with respect
16 to the next witness, but it requires us to go into private session,
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please go into private session.
19 MS. RICHTEROVA: May I be excused for five minutes?
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are excused, Ms. Richterova.
21 MS. RICHTEROVA: Thank you.
22 [Private session]
11 Page 2735 redacted. Private session.
11 Page 2736 redacted. Private session.
4 [Open session]
5 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: And before we swear in the witness, can we just
7 deal with how we are going to sit for the rest of the day now that we have
8 had an unexpected break. It is the suggestion of the Chamber that we sit
9 now and break at 11.00 for 20 minutes; resume at 11.20 and break at 12.20
10 for another 20 minutes; resume at 12.40 and break at 1345. Is that okay?
11 MR. WHITING: That's fine with the Prosecution.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Thank you very much.
13 May the witness please take the declaration.
14 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I'm sorry. The -- I just need
15 to -- I'm sorry to interrupt.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: No problem.
17 MR. WHITING: But one aspect of the voice distortion is that when
18 the witness is speaking, all other microphones need to be turned off in
19 the courtroom otherwise it can pick up. So I just wanted to alert the
20 Chamber to that. I've already told Defence counsel.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: We've all heard that. And may we please be
22 vigilant to make sure that we turn off our microphones if we are not
23 speaking and the witness is speaking. Let us deal when we are not
24 speaking, turn it off.
25 You may proceed, Mr. Whiting -- well, may the witness proceed with
1 the declaration.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
3 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
5 You may proceed, Mr. Whiting.
6 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 WITNESS: WITNESS MM-037
8 [Witness answered through interpreter]
9 Examination by Mr. Whiting:
10 Q. Good morning, Witness. Can you hear and understand me in a
11 language that you understand?
12 A. I can hear you and understand.
13 Q. Witness, before I begin asking you questions, I want to explain to
14 you the protective measures that have been granted to you for purposes of
15 this proceeding.
16 The following measures have been granted: You will be referred to
17 by a pseudonym during these proceedings and all other proceedings; your --
18 there will be face distortion of any broadcast of this proceeding; in
19 addition, voice distortion has been granted so your voice will be
20 distorted in any broadcast of this proceeding; and finally, if there is
21 any discussion of details which might tend to identify you, that will be
22 done in private session so that there will be no broadcast of that part of
23 the testimony.
24 Do you understand those protections?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. With the assistance of the usher, I'd like to show you what we
2 refer to as a pseudonym sheet, it's a -- and ask you to look at it. And
3 can you tell us if that is your name, your date of birth, and place of
4 birth on the sheet?
5 A. Yes.
6 MR. WHITING: Could the usher please show that to the Defence
7 counsel and then to the Chamber. Could that be --
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
9 MR. WHITING: Could that be admitted into evidence under seal,
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the document please be admitted into evidence
12 under seal and may it be given an exhibit number.
13 THE REGISTRAR: That will be exhibit number 267, Your Honours,
14 under seal.
15 MR. WHITING:
16 Q. Witness, for purposes of these proceedings, you will be referred
17 to either as "Witness" or "MM-037." That's a number that we have given
18 you as a pseudonym. Do you understand that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now, Witness, you have some water there in front of you. Feel
21 free to drink some water, and if you don't understand any question or you
22 can't hear it, please let us know. Do you understand?
23 A. Very well.
24 Q. Now, your -- because you have testified in a prior proceeding,
25 your evidence has been admitted by this Trial Chamber in its written form
1 from the prior proceeding.
2 MR. WHITING: And, Your Honour, with the assistance of the usher
3 I'd like to provide the Chamber - and Defence counsel already has it but I
4 can provide an additional copy - of the witness's testimony from the prior
5 proceeding. And could that be admitted into evidence, please, under seal?
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the witness's prior evidence please be admitted
7 into evidence under seal and be given an exhibit number?
8 THE REGISTRAR: That will be exhibit number 268, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
10 MR. WHITING:
11 Q. So, Witness, the result of this is that it will not be necessary
12 to go through all of your evidence again because it has been admitted in
13 written form. The purpose of you coming here today is -- I will ask you
14 just a few -- very few questions to just clarify a few points from your
15 testimony, and then the Defence counsel will have an opportunity to ask
16 you questions as well as the Trial Chamber. Do you understand that?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now, just so that everybody's able to follow clearly your
19 evidence, what I'm going to do is read out a summary of your prior
20 testimony. Now, obviously it is the prior testimony which is in evidence
21 which governs, and the summary is simply for purposes of the Trial Chamber
22 and the parties to be able to follow the questions further.
23 So for this time while I'm reading the summary, all you need to do
24 is just listen to the summary. And when the summary is finished, I will
25 ask you just a few questions about your testimony before the Defence
1 counsel asks questions. Do you understand?
2 A. Yes.
3 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, for the purposes of the very beginning
4 of the summary I would ask that we go into private session, please.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
6 [Private session]
11 [Open session]
12 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
14 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour. I will continue with the
16 The Witness is an ethnic Serb. His evidence concerns the area
17 around Saborsko, Licka Jesenica, and Plaski. I would again refer Your
18 Honours to page 19 of the atlas, Exhibit 23.
19 At some point after early 1991, the witness joined the SDS.
20 Before 1991, relations between Serbs and Croats were good, but as time
21 went on there was more fear and more tension. Serbs became afraid because
22 of messages from the HDZ. At some point, the SDS in Knin organised a
23 referendum about establishing the SAO Krajina. The witness testified
24 that "ordinary people thought it was some kind of protection and that --
25 and that something would be established that would protect us. Well, to
1 put it simply, that the Croatian authorities would not come to that area,
2 that would be it."
3 After the events in Plitvice in Easter of 1991, there was a
4 breakdown in communication between the Serb villages and the Croat
5 villages in the area. In the village of Plaski, there was a police
6 station which was mixed, but most of the employees were Serbs. At some
7 point in time, the Croat members of the police left and some went to
8 Saborsko. The ones that were left -- the ones that left, I'm sorry, were
9 replaced by Serbs. The chief of the police at that time was Dusan Latas.
10 Some other men went to Knin for training, and when they returned they were
11 called Martic's police. These Martic's police wore some camouflage
12 uniforms and some blue uniforms, but they had badges of the police of the
13 SAO Krajina and they had automatic rifles that were obtained from Knin.
14 The commander of Martic's police was a man by the name of Medakovic.
15 Another man with Martic's police in Plaski was Djuro Ogrizovic who engaged
16 in acts of looting.
17 The commander of the TO of Plaski was a man by the name of Nikola
18 Dokmanovic, who had formerly been in the JNA. The weapons for the TO were
19 supplied by the JNA. They were brought in by night in crates. The JNA
20 ordered the TO members to burn the crates after the weapons were
21 distributed. This occurred in September or October of 1991. After the
22 weapons were distributed, uniforms were provided to the TO soldiers by the
24 In October or November of 1991, the JNA sent 18 officers who took
25 over command of the TO, organised it, and structured it into a brigade
1 with battalions. The commander of the TO brigade was Petar Trbovic. When
2 these officers arrived, the TO also received mortars and anti-aircraft
3 guns, and the TO soldiers were trained in their use. The TO brigade had a
4 warehouse with supplies that Martic's police would also obtain supplies
6 Around the time period of November 1991, the witness was told that
7 there were Croatian soldiers in Saborsko and that it was a major
8 stronghold of Croat forces, but he did not know this for himself. The
9 witness heard but, again, does not know for himself that the authorities
10 in Plaski asked the Croat forces in Saborsko to have free passage along
11 the road and that nobody would be attacked. There was only one road that
12 went through Saborsko. He also heard that in the days before the attack
13 on Saborsko there were attacks by Croat paramilitary forces on the
14 military barracks above Licka Jesenica, where there was also a JNA fuel
15 depot and that sometime before the attack on Saborsko, three Serbs were
16 killed above Licka Jesenica.
17 The witness participated in the attack on Saborsko on the 12th of
18 November, 1991. The operation was commanded by Cedomir Bulat from the
19 JNA. The TO was attached to the JNA for purposes of the attack, and
20 Martic's police also participated in the attack. Soldiers gathered in
21 Licka Jesenica for the attack, and although the witness did not see
22 Martic's police there because they were attacking from the other side, he
23 later saw them in Saborsko.
24 The soldiers were told that the attack itself was delayed because
25 of what -- bad weather which prevented the planes from flying. The
1 witness testified that he heard various reasons for the attack on
2 Saborsko. The witness heard that the leadership wanted to have the roads
3 opened and communication lines opened, and Cedomir Bulat explained that
4 Saborsko had to fall in order to be able to link up the Serb lands. There
5 were shortages of salt and fuel in Plaski which was cut off from other
6 Serb areas in the SAO Krajina.
7 Saborsko was first attacked by planes and by artillery fire,
8 followed by an infantry attack. The witness does not believe that there
9 was any resistance from Saborsko, and no Serb soldiers were killed during
10 the operation to the witness's knowledge.
11 When the witness reached the hamlets of Tuk, Dumencici, and
12 Solaje, which are all hamlets of Saborsko, he saw that the houses were set
13 on fire by Serb forces. He saw people setting the houses on fire, but he
14 could not recognise who they were because of the distance. Later the
15 witness entered Saborsko itself and saw that everything was on fire, but
16 he did not see how they were set on fire. The church in Saborsko was
17 still standing, though it may have been hit by a projectile. Two weeks to
18 one month later, the church was mined and destroyed.
19 The witness saw both soldiers and police in Saborsko when he
20 entered on the 12th of November, 1991, and he saw two or three of Martic's
21 police engaging in looting of a shop. Before entering Saborsko, the
22 witness learned that Pero Krtan, a merchant, and two men who had been with
23 him had been killed, and he heard that they were killed by Martic's
24 police. He thinks - the witness, that is - that Krtan was killed because
25 he had money and not because he was a Croat.
1 Later, after the attack on Saborsko, both dead people and dead
2 animals were buried using an excavator. The witness heard that there were
3 approximately 20 people killed, but he does not know how they were killed
4 and he did not see anybody killed or any of the bodies.
5 Approximately -- after the attack, approximately 50 to 60 elderly
6 Croat civilians from Saborsko were taken to a neighbouring Serb village
7 where they were given tea and sandwiches. The next day they were put on
8 buses and driven to the Croat-controlled area towards Ogulin. Other
9 bigger Croat villages in the area, Rakovica and Slunj, later fell after
10 the 12th of November, 1991.
11 That is the end of the summary of the witness's testimony. I just
12 would like to ask a few questions of the witness.
13 Q. Witness, first I want to ask you something about Plaski. Did
14 there come a time when Plaski, the village or town of Plaski, separated
15 itself from the municipality of Ogulin?
16 A. That area fell within the municipality of Ogulin. With the
17 political events that were going on then, a rift started, and the decision
18 was made for Plaski to separate from Ogulin municipality. And this
19 imaginary separation line was drawn near Vojnovac village. Vojnovac
20 village is approximately halfway between Plaski and Josipdol. It's a bit
21 closer to Josipdol. The railway goes through there and it was some kind
22 of natural separation line against Ogulin. And Josipdol is 30 per cent
23 Serbian and 70 per cent Croat in terms of population.
24 Q. Now, when Plaski separated itself from the municipality of Ogulin,
25 did it form its own municipality?
1 A. At the outset, there were indications that Plaski was going to
2 join Titova Korenica municipality, but that was physically impossible
3 because they were separated by Saborsko and Poljanak and Plitvice as well,
4 so it was physically impossible. The only real connection between them
5 went through Saborski. So Plaski set up itself as a municipality.
6 Q. And what was it called?
7 A. I didn't understand. Who?
8 Q. I'm sorry, my question was unclear. When Plaski set itself up
9 as a municipality, what was the name of the municipality that it created?
10 A. Plaski municipality. And I think it was then that the Autonomous
11 District of Krajina was proclaimed and Plaski municipality became one of
12 its parts.
13 Q. Aside from the village of Plaski itself, were there other villages
14 that became part of this new Plaski municipality?
15 A. This entire area, Vojnovac, Plaski, Blata, and Licka Jesenica,
16 that entire area populated by Serbs, except for perhaps 2 per cent Croats,
17 became part of that Autonomous Region of Krajina. There was maybe just
18 one village that was purely Croat, and in Plaski there were plenty mixed
20 Q. Just to be clear: This -- these villages that you mentioned,
21 Vojnovac, Plaski, Blata, Licka Jesenica, did these villages all become
22 part of the Plaski municipality which -- which was a part of the
23 SAO Krajina?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And was this Plaski municipality isolated in any way from the rest
1 of the SAO Krajina, geographically speaking?
2 A. I think all that you read in the summary is quite accurate. Maybe
3 Plaski is a bit out of that context and it's not quite clear -- sorry,
4 what did you ask me?
5 Q. I'll repeat my question. I'll repeat my question. Just listen
6 carefully to the question.
7 A. Yes, I remember now. That new Plaski municipality was completely
8 isolated because it was completely surrounded by Croat villages, and you
9 couldn't leave Plaski, you couldn't go anywhere, without going through a
10 Croat village.
11 Q. Who was the first president of the Plaski municipality?
12 A. The first president was Nikola Medakovic nicknamed Medo.
13 Q. Was this the same Medakovic who was the head of Martic's police in
14 that area?
15 A. Right.
16 Q. Did he hold both positions at the same time; that is, president of
17 the municipality of Plaski and head of Martic's police?
18 A. Well, at that time, at the beginning, it was a very small group.
19 So he was simultaneously president of the municipality and headed that
20 group of mainly very young men.
21 Q. These very young men, were those the Martic's police?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Now, could you describe for us please in October and November --
24 and this is to your knowledge. In October and November of 1991, what
25 kinds of police existed in Plaski?
1 A. You see, I just want to say that throughout that time, from the
2 beginning of the conflict almost until the end, until the Operation Storm,
3 there were three kinds. The real police in 1990 and 1991. Plaski was the
4 administrative centre of that area. However, after that time it became
5 part of Ogulin district, and the police station of Plaski merged with the
6 police in Ogulin. However, after these changes, the police station in
7 Plaski, as an autonomous police station, was re-established and it had 10
8 to 12 policemen employed.
9 In the very beginning of these events, several young men went to
10 Knin, to Golubic more precisely, to get training. And when they came
11 back, they started calling themselves the Martic police.
12 When the peacekeeping forces came to the contact line, to the
13 speculation line, the demobilisation of the Territorial Defence started.
14 The police took up those positions, and they were paid policemen as well.
15 When the peacekeeping forces came, all the battalions were disbanded and
16 there remained only one police company that consisted of people who wanted
17 to be policemen, although they received salaries.
18 When Maslenica was attacked and when it fell, there was a new
19 mobilisation of all military conscripts, and that's how it continued until
20 the end. Those are the three police forces.
21 Q. Thank you for that very complete answer --
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: When what was attacked?
23 MR. WHITING: I believe the witness said "Maslenica."
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
25 MR. WHITING:
1 Q. Witness, you made a reference to -- in explaining the third
2 category, the third group, you made a reference to when the peacekeeping
3 forces came. Was that in 1992?
4 A. I think so. I can't remember exactly.
5 But what I was trying to say is this: The mobilised members of
6 the Territorial Defence were released to go home. They were no longer
7 part of the army. From the attack on Maslenica until the arrival of the
8 peacekeeping forces, there was a police force who held the positions, and
9 they were neither the Martic's police nor the regular police that we had
10 at the beginning commanded by Latas. It was neither of these. The
11 regular police did not return to Plaski, the regular police, you know the
12 kind you go to when you need something. But when the peacekeeping forces,
13 when they came, they demobilised us, the Territorial Defence, and we
14 stayed at home until Maslenica fell. We were not militarily engaged. I
15 don't know if I've managed to put it clearly enough.
16 Q. Well, I think so, but I just want to ask you a couple of questions
17 to try to clarify it further. I want to focus on 1991. In 1991 - and
18 more specifically in, let's say, September and October of 1991 - did there
19 exist what you refer to as the regular police in Plaski, those you would
20 go to if you needed something?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did there exist also what you've described as Martic's police?
23 A. Yes, but not the third one. That third one did not become active
24 until the arrival of the peacekeeping forces.
25 Q. And that, to your best recollection, was sometime in 1992?
1 A. Yes, sometime around that time.
2 Q. Okay. I think you've made it clear. So I'm going to focus my
3 remaining questions on 1991, on just those first two groups, the regular
4 police and Martic's police. You've already testified that Nikola
5 Medakovic was the head of Martic's police. Who was the head of the
6 regular police?
7 A. Latas, Dusan Latas.
8 Q. Okay. Now, you've -- did both types of police, that is, the
9 regular police and Martic's police, participate in the attack on Saborsko
10 on the 12th of November, 1991?
11 A. I think so.
12 Q. Well, you've already testified that you saw Martic's police in
13 Saborsko. Do you recall if you also saw the regular police in Saborsko?
14 A. Well, they acted together from the same axis. They were given the
15 assignment to act from the same axis.
16 Q. And when you say "they were given the assignment," do you mean by
17 that that both the regular police and Martic's police were given the
19 A. I think they were acting together in the attack on Saborsko
20 because the main operation was led by the JNA. We were just attached to
21 the battalions, resubordinated. The 25 or 30 of us were just attached to
22 those battalions, whereas the main ground of the 5th Military District was
23 precisely in our vicinity near Plasko. That was the headquarters of the
24 entire 5th Military District.
25 Q. I have a question about Licka Jesenica. Was there a JNA barracks
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Was there also a fuel depot there?
4 A. It was actually a large fuel depot, a military one, and it was
5 guarded by the army. The barracks provided security for that fuel depot
6 because it contained large quantities of fuel.
7 Q. In October and November of 1991, was this barracks, this JNA
8 barracks and the fuel depot, were they blockaded in any way by Croat
10 A. It was not a blockade in the traditional sense. Rather, Croat
11 forces tried to take-over that depot because of course they wanted the
12 fuel and they did not succeed. But there was no blockade in the
13 traditional sense barring entry and exit; it was just an attack that was
14 repelled. The purpose of the attack was to take over the depot.
15 Q. You testified that before the attack on Saborsko you were told
16 that Saborsko was a Croatian stronghold. First of all, who told you that?
17 A. We spent an entire day and an entire night in Licka Jesenica
18 before Saborsko was attacked, and by that time people were already nervous
19 and -- about a mutiny. And Cedo Bulat then said that we were waiting for
20 good weather for aircraft to be able to fly, because Saborsko was a very
21 strong Croat stronghold, and that's why they didn't want to take any
22 risks. They wanted aircraft support and they were waiting for good
24 It's difficult for me to explain this because I'm not a military
25 expert, but they wanted, I think, the aircraft to go first and to use the
1 heavy weapons first and then the infantry. However, the weather was
2 tricky and he didn't want to try and attack Saborski without air support.
3 Q. Witness, from what you were able to see and learn during the
4 attack, was that true? Was it a Croatian stronghold?
5 A. I have a feeling that in view of the role of my group there was no
6 strong resistance offered from Saborsko, not as far as I could see.
7 Q. You said in your testimony that the church was damaged or may have
8 been hit by a projectile at the time of the attack on Saborsko on the 12th
9 of November, 1991, but that it was only destroyed some two weeks or one
10 month later. How did you learn that it had been destroyed?
11 A. That became common knowledge immediately. It was just hit with a
12 tank shell, but the tower remained standing. Within 15 or a -- days or a
13 month, the church in Saborsko was bombed and destroyed, but it didn't
14 happen during the attack.
15 Q. Did you see it after it was bombed and destroyed some 15 days or a
16 month later?
17 A. I passed through that area much later and I saw that all that
18 remained of the church was a heap of rubble.
19 Q. Thank you. I just have one last topic, and that is I'd like to
20 show you a document which is 65 ter Exhibit 1258.
21 MR. WHITING: And if that could be put up on the e-court.
22 Q. Witness, this is a letter, and if we could -- it's addressed to a
23 Rudolf Spehar, and if you look at the bottom, if we can go down to the
24 bottom, you see it's from Nikola Medakovic and it's dated the 13th of
25 November, 1991. Now, you've already provided evidence about the --
1 who -- you've already told us who Nikola Medakovic was at that time. Do
2 you know who Rudolf Spehar was at that time?
3 A. Yes, I do.
4 Q. Could you tell us who he was?
5 A. After the victory of the HDZ at the elections, the Croat
6 Democratic Union, Spehar was a great activist in the area, and on that
7 basis he became president of Ogulin municipality. I know the man
8 personally because he was two years above me in the Ogulin high school.
9 Q. Witness, in the letter -- if we could scroll up on the B/C/S
10 and -- there. Right there. Perfect. Do you see a sentence it says --
11 and on the English it's -- let me see if it's visible on the English one.
13 There's a sentence which says -- the letter is about the attack on
14 the Saborsko. And it says -- there's a sentence which says: "The
15 immediate cause for the attack were your soldiers' gruesome actions
16 towards the civilians during the attack on Licka Jesenica."
17 And then there's another sentence about that. Do you know what
18 that is a reference to?
19 A. Yes, I know. I think those were the first casualties, victims in
20 that area, three Serbs who went from Plaski to the neighbouring village to
21 buy horses. So they took their tractor with a trailer and drove there,
22 and as far as I know only one of them had a rifle. It is a 16-kilometre
23 forest road from Licka Jesenica to Dabar. There is only one house on the
24 way, and where the road forks towards Glibodol village they were ambushed
25 and killed in a really atrocious way.
1 Q. Those Serb men, were they members of the TO in Plaski?
2 A. Yes, because they were rather young people. Everybody up to
3 60 years of age had the obligation towards Territorial Defence. They
4 could be mobilised.
5 Q. Now, if we can just scroll down on the -- to the bottom of the
6 document. You see that stamp there. Can you read what that stamp says?
7 A. "SAO Krajina Municipal Assembly of Plaski."
8 Q. Did you see that stamp on other documents at that time?
9 A. Yes. Yes, yes, I did see it.
10 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, could this document be admitted into
11 evidence, please?
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the document please be admitted into evidence
13 and be given an exhibit number.
14 THE REGISTRAR: That will be exhibit number 269, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
16 MR. WHITING:
17 Q. Witness, I want to thank you. Those are all my questions, and now
18 it will be time for the Defence to ask you some questions.
19 MR. WHITING: But, Your Honour, I think it's time for the break.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: I suppose it will be a convenient time to take the
21 break. We will come back at 20 past 11.00.
22 Court adjourned.
23 --- Recess taken at 11.02 a.m.
24 --- On resuming at 11.22 a.m.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Witness, before we proceed, may I ask you to please
1 slow down when you answer questions so that we can follow you. I think
2 you speak a little too fast for us. Thank you very much.
3 Mr. Whiting.
4 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I'm sorry, I finished my questions.
5 Thank you.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: You finished your questions. Thank you very much,
7 Mr. Whiting.
8 Mr. Milovancevic.
9 It is even more important that you slow down because
10 Mr. Milovancevic is probably going to be speaking the same language as you
12 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Cross-examination by Mr. Milovancevic:
14 Q. Witness, I am Defence counsel for Milan Martic. Now we are come
15 to the stage of your examination that is called the cross-examination.
16 You should know about this. I am going to repeat this request. When a
17 question is put, could you please pause before answering, and I will do
18 the same thing, so the interpreters can interpret what is being said. So
19 please speak slower.
20 Another matter: Please do not mention job titles and things like
21 that precisely because of these protective measures. When we get to
22 things like that, we're going to ask for private session.
23 You said in your statement that you worked in Plasko for many
24 years and that you stayed at work until August 1991. Is that right?
25 A. Yes.
1 MR. WHITING: Your Honour -- I'm sorry. There are two matters.
2 First, I would just remind Defence counsel that he has to turn off his
3 microphone after he asks the question. The second matter is: I think
4 questions about the witness's job should be in private session.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Would you like to go into private session,
6 Mr. Milovancevic?
7 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] I agree, Your Honour. I think
8 that would be useful if we moved into private session.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Milovancevic.
10 May the Chamber please move into private session.
11 [Private session]
11 Pages 2758-2761 redacted. Private session.
10 [Open session]
11 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
13 Mr. Milovancevic, you may proceed --
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Mr. Milovancevic, before you proceed, there is a
16 reference to Plasko. I would like to know: Is there a difference between
17 Plaski and Plasko, because the -- the names seem to be used
18 interchangeably, I want to know, or if it's two different places, Plaski,
19 Plasko. Thank you.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's one and the same place.
21 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Thank you.
22 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. When you said in your statement to the Prosecution and during your
24 testimony when you talked about the fear of the Serbs in 1990, you
25 mentioned and you stated that this fear was based on recollections as to
1 what happened to the Serbs during the Second World War and also that the
2 Serbs were afraid of the Croatian government because of some of the
3 statements that their politicians had made about Serbs in Croatia. Is
4 that what you stated?
5 A. Yes. I said the following, quite literally: That when the HDZ
6 won the democratic party elections in Croatia, that they -- had they had a
7 different attitude towards the Serb ethnic being the situation would have
8 probably been quite different from today. However, when the constitution
9 of the Republic of Croatia was changed, the Serbs were not even mentioned
10 in the constitutional preamble. It was said that the Croatian state was
11 the state of Croat people and indivisible, and so on.
12 And secondly, Croat officials were trying to outdo each other in
13 terms of bad words about the Serbs. I think that it was Sime Djodan who
14 said in 1941, and this was all over the media, and he said quite literally
15 that Serbs in Croatia were a disruptive factor. For as long as they were
16 there, Croatia would not be -- well, that they should be expelled,
17 baptised, killed. So that led to this fear. Well, it wasn't easy for
18 anyone to take up arms and nobody wanted to.
19 Q. You said that Sime Djodan made a statement that Serbs were a
20 disruptive factor and that they should be eliminated from Croatia. During
21 the Easter --
22 A. Message. I think it was --
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: If you can remember to pause after each question,
24 you will automatically cover the switching off of the microphone. Please
25 just pause. Don't rush to answer as soon as Mr. Milovancevic finishes
1 asking the question.
2 You may proceed, Mr. Milovancevic.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is ...
4 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Witness, sir, the Trial Chamber told you that they had time to
6 hear you. You don't have to hurry. We are not being asked to hurry, so
7 please let me put my question.
8 You said that Sime Djodan made a statement that Serbs in Croatia
9 were a disruptive factor, that they should be converted, expelled or
10 killed. You did not tell us who Sime Djodan was at the time. What was
12 A. He was a member of parliament.
13 Q. Does that mean that he was a member of the Croatian parliament?
14 A. Yes, but, but when I said that -- I mean, I said that for the
15 following reason. I thought that such statements may -- did a great deal
16 of harm to the Serb people and to the Croatian people. It led to a lot of
17 fear. Things would have been different. The situation would have evolved
18 differently had there not be such statements and such fear.
19 Q. You talked about the fear of this population in the region of
20 Plasko and you said that in 1941 they suffered badly. You talked about a
21 pogrom, so was this a mass suffering and loss of life?
22 A. Well, that is evident. This entire area, Kordun, Banja, Lika was
23 afflicted very badly.
24 Q. When you say that during the war in 1941 the entire area of Banja,
25 Kordun, and Lika was afflicted badly, what population was afflicted badly
1 and by whose authorities, in order to make it clear?
2 A. The HDZ authorities.
3 Q. And what population -- what population was this?
4 A. Serb.
5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, NDH, not HDZ.
6 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Have you heard of a statement made by the then-president of the
8 HDZ and the future president of Croatia, Mr. Franjo Tudjman, in February
9 1990 in the Vatroslav Lisinski hall in Zagreb when the HDZ was being
10 established, that the independent state of Croatia is not only a fascist
11 crime and a fascist creation but also an expression of the historic
12 aspirations of the Croatian people. Have you heard of that statement?
13 A. Well, I cannot say that I particularly listened to that, but
14 similar statements could often be read in the newspapers, too. But I
15 could not remember that particular detail right now.
16 Q. Just one more question in relation to this question. This
17 statement made by Sime Djodan, then-high ranking politician in Croatia,
18 was it the only statement of this kind or were there many such statements
19 or were there a lot of such statements?
20 A. I mentioned this one because I personally read this one and
21 remembered that statement.
22 Q. In that kind of situation, elections were held, the first
23 multi-party elections in Croatia in April 1990. And in your statement to
24 the OTP you said that Serbs in Plasko voted for SDP. Can you give us the
25 full name of that party and who headed it?
1 A. SDP. Its full name is the Party of Democratic Changes headed by
2 Ivica Racan. We saw it as the successor of the communist party, and we in
3 our region had no one else to vote for and we thought they were the best
4 option, so almost everybody voted SDP.
5 Q. Would I be right in saying that the full name of that party was
6 SDP, an acronym for Party of Democratic Changes - League of Communists of
7 Croatia, and would I be right in saying that Ivica Racan was a politician
8 of Croat ethnicity?
9 A. Well, I cannot confirm the communist party bit. It's just that we
10 trusted Ivica Racan as a politician because he had been a politician for
11 many years. He had been in the political arena of Croatia for a long
13 Q. You explained the reasons for the fear of Serbs and the events of
14 April. The first multi-party elections in Croatia were won by the
15 Croatian Democratic Union headed by Mr. Tudjman, and after that some
16 constitutional amendments were proposed. Is it the case that those
17 constitutional amendments proposed that Serbs be deleted as a constituent
18 nation from the constitution of Croatia and be renamed a national
19 minority, that the Serb language be banned, and that Croat emblems and
20 iconography be introduced? Was that the essence of the proposed
21 constitutional amendments, and what was the reaction of the Serbs?
22 A. I don't know exactly what you're driving at, but it is my opinion
23 that if there had been any political wisdom and if they had put it
24 differently, namely, that the state of Croatia belonged to all peoples who
25 inhabited it, things would have been much different.
1 Q. Thank you. Did you just say that the Serbs reacted to the new
2 formulation, stating that Croatia was a state only of its citizens of
3 Croat ethnicity?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You explained that in 1990 at the elections in Plaski you voted
6 SDP, the Party of Democratic Changes, headed by Mr. Ivica Racan. You said
7 that at that time SDS did not have a presence in Plaski. In your
8 statement to the OTP, this acronym "SDP" is explained as Serbian
9 Democratic Party. Is that right? Is it the case, rather that its name
10 was Party of Democratic Changes?
11 A. Party of Democratic Changes is correct.
12 Q. Do you know in how many municipalities in the then-Republic of
13 Croatia did that party called SDS, the Serbian Democratic Party, headed by
14 Jovan Raskovic, win in 1990?
15 A. I think that that party arrived into our area rather late, too
16 late for the elections; however, they did win in Knin and the surrounding
17 area. In our area, we joined that party en masse but only after the
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Many Milovancevic, your question said "party called
20 SDS." Did you mean to say "SDP"? That last question.
21 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] No. No, Your Honour. The
22 witness was saying that the residents of Plasko voted SDP. And I then
23 asked him what happened with the SDS party at the elections, how many
24 votes they won in Croatia, in how many municipalities they won. So we
25 were talking about an entirely different party, not the one the witness
1 voted for.
2 Q. Witness, would I be right in saying that SDS won in only four
3 municipalities at those elections, Knin, Benkovac, Gracac, and
4 Donji Lapac?
5 A. Possibly. Because those places were closer to Knin where that
6 party had a presence, so it's possible. I can't say one way or the other.
7 Q. You said that you had voted for the Party of Democratic Changes,
8 with the acronym SDP, headed by Ivica Racan at those elections in 1990,
9 and only later did you move to SDS and Serbs en masse joined the SDS. Can
10 you tell us why that happened?
11 A. I think it was the personality of Jovan Raskovic that was the main
12 reason, and if Jovan Raskovic had stayed in that party -- I had the
13 opportunity of hearing his speeches many times. That man did not want
14 war, and if he had stayed in that position, we would have avoided
15 bloodshed maybe. And that's why many Serbs joined the SDS.
16 Q. Was Jovan Raskovic the president and the founder of the Serbian
17 Democratic Party, SDS?
18 A. Yes, yes.
19 Q. Let me just remind you, allow me to finish my question before you
20 start answering.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic, can I just -- may I also just
22 remind you that you are actually -- this is a 92 bis witness and your
23 cross-examination is supposed to be dealing with the questions relating to
24 the Martic's police. I know that a few questions were asked this morning
25 by the Prosecution, but I'm not getting the impression that you are
1 dealing with those questions also -- either.
2 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I was just about
3 to move to that topic. I just wanted to provide a general picture of 1990
4 so that further comments would be clearer.
5 Q. My next question to you, Witness, is: You voted en masse for SDS
6 in 1990 and then many Serbs joined SDS instead, mainly attracted by the
7 personality of Jovan Raskovic. Was he a man who, as a founder of the SDS,
8 hated Croats or said anything against the Croats? Did anyone ever hear
9 him talk about a plan to expel or kill Croats, to start a war or anything
10 like that?
11 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I'm going to object to the formulation
12 of the question. It's impossible for the witness to answer. Did anyone
13 ever hear him talk about these things? The witness is not capable of
14 answering that question. All he can answer is what he heard about what
15 Jovan Raskovic said or didn't say.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic.
17 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] That's the answer I expected to
18 hear from the witness.
19 Q. You joined Jovan Raskovic's party, attracted by his personality
20 and his ideas. Did you ever hear him say anything of the kind I just
22 A. I had a feeling that Jovan Raskovic wanted to avoid war at all
23 costs. That's my conviction, my impression.
24 Q. You mentioned a skirmish, an armed clash, in Plitvice in April
25 1991. What exactly happened at Plitvice; do you know?
1 A. From what I know, the area of Plitvice was already an imaginary
2 border. It contained Licka Korenica, populated by Serbs and it was under
3 Serb control. And the Croatian police then were sent there and a conflict
4 occurred, including casualties, two casualties as far as I know.
5 Q. Let me ask you: Did the Croatian police attack Serbs or the other
6 way around?
7 A. Well, I wouldn't know. I know that the area was controlled by
8 Serbs, and as for who attacked --
9 Q. Do you know if the JNA intervened to separate the conflicting
11 A. I don't know if the JNA was stationed there. I think they were.
12 They probably stopped this clash. I'm not sure.
13 Q. You explained that Plaski was surrounded by Croat villages
15 A. What I meant to say is that Plaski is geographically situated in
16 a -- in an area filled mostly with Croat villages.
17 Q. That's what I wanted to ask. The neighbouring villages around
18 Plaski were populated mainly by Croats.
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. You said that after this, developments in Croatia in August 1991,
21 Serbs organised themselves and attempted to create Plaski as a
22 municipality. Is that what you said?
23 A. Yes, Plaski separated. I said that from the Second World War
24 until 1964 Plaski was the administrative centre of that district. From
25 1964 onwards, it was merged with Ogulin municipality and it fell under
1 Ogulin municipality. And then on the eve of these conflicts, it separated
3 Q. Until 1964, was Plaski as a separate municipality mostly populated
4 by Serbs or not?
5 A. It had a majority Serb population, but it also included Saborsko
7 Q. So from World War II until 1964, Saborsko was a municipality with
8 a majority Serb population. Are you now saying that -- sorry. I meant to
9 say "Plaski." This was a slip of the tongue. Plaski was a municipality
10 with a majority Serb population. And after 1964 it was re-organised to
11 merge with Ogulin municipality. Was Ogulin a municipality with a majority
12 Croat population?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. At the time when these events were going on, the events we just
15 discussed, is it the case that the Serb population of Plasko again tried
16 to set their own municipality up, the municipality of Plaski --
17 MR. WHITING: Excuse me. Could there just be clarification about
18 what time period we're talking about? Because it -- I'm not clear if
19 we're talking about -- what events we're talking about. Are we talking
20 about Plitvice in April?
21 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] I'll ask a very specific
23 Q. We are now talking, and even my last question referred to year
24 1991. You said you participated in the elections, you voted for SDP, that
25 that was not a good idea, and the political developments made us turn
1 towards the SDS, and Plasko separated itself from Ogulin and was set up as
2 a municipality again?
3 A. Yes, that's what I said, although there's a bit of confusion.
4 Parliamentary elections in Croatia were I believe in 1990. At that time
5 there was not a single Serb political party in Plasko area yet, and we
6 thought that SDP was somehow the most acceptable to Serbs. And that's why
7 we voted for SDP.
8 However, as things continued to develop, Serbs and Croats were
9 increasingly being confronted and tensions rose. And you are confusing me
10 with your questions about various periods. These developments led to an
11 aggravation, an escalation of tensions, and the communication between
12 Serbs and Croats was diminished out of fear. Croats were afraid to go to
13 Serb places and vice versa. Only later when it became obvious that things
14 were taking a very bad turn, Jovan Raskovic and his party appeared on the
15 scene, and he held a rally in Plaski in 1990 perhaps, at the end of that
16 year, and was met with great enthusiasm. We thought that thanks to the
17 wisdom of Jovan Raskovic and his party, things would finally start to
18 improve and we would be able to avoid all the things that eventually we
19 were not able to avoid.
20 Q. Thank you, Witness. You stated that sometime in end August or
21 early September you were mobilised in the TO unit in Plasko, the
22 Territorial Defence?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did you receive a call-up paper? Who mobilised you?
25 A. At the beginning it was self-organisation of the people. People
1 were afraid that Croatian authorities would send somebody to their area
2 to -- those were all assumptions. Maybe that wouldn't have happened
3 anyway. But the fear was there and people were organising themselves in
4 order to defend themselves just in case. We didn't have any other weapons
5 but hunting rifles, and we thought if the Republic of Croatia decided to
6 use force to enter our area, there might be arrests. And that was our
7 reasoning at the time.
8 Q. Does that mean that this mobilisation of the Territorial Defence
9 was an attempt to self-organise for defence out of fear, that fear that
10 pervaded the Serb population?
11 A. I'm going to try to explain this better. Those were first forms
12 of self-defence inspired by that fear. We had among us Nikola Dokmanovic,
13 a former JNA officer, an honourable man, who knew about these things and
14 he became the leader of that Territorial Defence. Let me just explain
15 this till the end so you don't need to ask me additional questions.
16 At a later stage, the army began arming us. They would bring in
17 weapons that would be distributed during the night, whole cases with
18 weapons would be opened and distributed, and those were the first initial
19 forms of self-organisation for defence.
20 Q. I'm going to interrupt you with a brief question. Do you know
21 when it was that Croatia proclaimed secession from Yugoslavia? Was it on
22 the 25th of June, 1991? Do you remember that?
23 A. Well, I don't know. I cannot say. Well, I know that they
24 proclaimed it -- well, I don't remember exactly when. I don't remember
25 this detail.
1 Q. I did not expect you to confirm the exact date, but I'm duty-bound
2 to give you the exact date. So was this in June 1991, can you put it that
4 A. Yes, perhaps.
5 MR. WHITING: Your Honours, something I would note. This question
6 has been put to witnesses again and again. This specific question -- and
7 this is also true of other questions. This is an agreed fact in the case.
8 We've agreed on that fact, and so I'm not sure why it has to be put to
9 witnesses for them to confirm it.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic. Is that an agreed fact,
11 Mr. Milovancevic?
12 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it is an agreed
13 fact but that doesn't mean that it is an unimportant fact. That is the
14 most important fact for the Defence in relation to the Martic case. I put
15 the question only to be able to get to the next question in relation to
16 the events that the witness is talking about. So in this one sentence I
17 wanted to make an introduction into what came next.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: I suppose an easier way to introduce a topic that
19 relates to an agreed fact is to put the agreed fact to the witness and
20 tell him that that's an agreed fact and he can comment whichever way he
21 wants to comment, rather than ask him, when he says he doesn't know, then
22 you tell him later again that you're telling him that it is so. In one
23 swoop you can just say: This happened on such and such a date, that's an
24 agreed fact, what's your comment? Thank you.
25 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I did not know
1 what the witness knew, what he did not know. This statement does not
2 refer to this date, so I'm not going to go on. I will just move on to
3 another topic.
4 Q. Do you know that in the summer of 1991, in the beginning of the
5 autumn of 1991, throughout Croatia there were blockades of and then
6 attacks at JNA barracks. Did you hear anything about that?
7 A. That could be seen on television too. It is a well-known thing
8 that is.
9 Q. What television and what was it that you saw, very briefly?
10 A. We were watching Croatian television then, our television,
11 Croatian television.
12 Q. What was it that you saw on television? What was this about?
13 What kind of blockades or barracks and whose barracks?
14 A. Well, blockades of the JNA army, the barracks of the JNA army.
15 That was the only army then.
16 Q. Was this a blockade of JNA barracks that were deployed in the
17 Republic of Croatia until then?
18 A. Well, you know, I would like you to ask me about the area that I
19 know about -- I mean Plasko. If you mean these barracks that I'm talking
20 about in Plasko, in Licka Jesenica. I already made my statement how this
22 Q. I will have to caution you that it is the Defence that decides
23 what questions it's going to put to you, not the questions that you like
24 or dislike. You are duty-bound to answer the questions put by the
25 Defence, just like those put by the Prosecution.
1 Did you hear that in --
2 MR. WHITING: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I don't think the witness
3 said he didn't want what questions he disliked; I understood what he said
4 that he would like questions about things he knows about. I don't think
5 it's fair for counsel to suggest that he likes questions and he doesn't
6 want certain questions because he dislikes them. I think that's
7 misstating what he said.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: I think that's -- I think that's a fair reflection
9 of what the witness said, Mr. Milovancevic. And while I'm on the floor,
10 may I just, once again, remind you that you are still -- although you said
11 you were making preparations to go into the Martic police issue, you've
12 still not got into it. You're still sort of cross-examining all over the
13 show. May you please get to that point which you're allowed to
14 cross-examine on.
15 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my learned friend
16 the Prosecutor asked the witness during his examination-in-chief about the
17 attack on the barracks in Licka Jesenica. This is a barracks and a fuel
18 depot of the JNA. I'm trying to talk about that subject, too, but the
19 Defence does not believe that that is an isolated incident. Through the
20 witness it is trying to get to the following information, whether this was
21 part of attacks throughout Croatia and whether the witness knew about
22 that. And then we will move on to Licka Jesenica. Was that the reason
23 why an attack was launched against Saborsko. So I will try to be as
24 accurate as possible.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Please do.
1 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. You said that you were mobilised into the Territorial Defence in
3 Plasko in August or September. You say you were mobilised, and you said
4 that this was self-organisation. Was there a Territorial Defence unit in
5 Plasko until that moment, until the moment when you were mobilised in
6 accordance with previous plans of the Secretariat for National Defence?
7 A. Yes, but all of that was within the municipality of Ogulin, the
8 level of the municipality of Ogulin. We then belonged to the Territorial
9 Defence of the municipality of Ogulin, but in Plasko, no, because we
10 didn't have a municipality, either.
11 Q. How far away is Ogulin from Plasko?
12 A. 28 kilometres.
13 Q. Was there a Territorial Defence in Ogulin as there was in
14 Yugoslavia before, or was there the ZNG and the police of the MUP of
16 A. Until this began, this unbearable situation began, it was like it
17 was anywhere else in Yugoslavia. The Territorial Defence was organised in
18 the municipality of Ogulin as it was elsewhere.
19 Q. Did I understand what you said correctly. If I say -- if I
20 interpret this in the following way: That you said just now that until
21 this crisis broke out in the 1990s in the municipality of Ogulin there was
22 a normal Territorial Defence just like in all the other municipalities in
23 Yugoslavia. Is that correct?
24 A. Yes, that's correct.
25 Q. Do you know whether in the municipality of Ogulin there was an
1 organisation of the ZNG, the National Guards Corps?
2 A. I could not say anything with certainty about that. A lot of
3 things were being said, but how much truth was involved is very hard to
4 say now.
5 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Milovancevic please slow down and
7 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Was it only said --
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are being asked to slow down.
10 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Were people talking about -- well, we are now talking about what
12 people were talking about. What were people saying, that the ZNG did
13 exist and that they were there or not?
14 A. Well, you know all of that very well. At the Maksimir stadium
15 there was a promotion of the ZNG.
16 Q. At that time in Ogulin, in August/September 1991, were there any
17 Croat police forces there?
18 A. Well, yes. I explained earlier on that precisely in 1990 or the
19 end of 1990 or beginning of 1991 a group of police came back and was
20 formed in Plasko, but the MUP was in Ogulin. But it was just this one
21 department that was open in Plasko before all of these events.
22 Q. This police of the Ministry of the Interior of Croatia in Ogulin,
23 what was their name and what kind of insignia did they have on their
24 sleeves in 1991?
25 A. Like now, "MUP of Croatia, MUP Hrvatski."
1 Q. Is part of their insignia the Croatian chequer-board flag, the
2 chequer-board emblem, traditional chequer-board emblem?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. At that time what about the policemen of Serb ethnicity who worked
5 in the Ministry of the Interior of Croatia? Were they laid off,
7 A. As for Plasko, what I can say with certainty, allegedly they were
8 trying to have proportionate representation of the Croatian population and
9 the Serb population, and that was at the Plaski police station, too, among
10 the policemen. Now, I don't know exactly but there were about nine Serbs
11 and three Croats.
12 Q. Can you tell us when was it that the police station of Plaski or
13 police outpost of Plaski was established where there were no more Croatian
14 policemen, policemen of Croat ethnicity, that is?
15 A. I already said that I do not know exactly when the police was
16 established exactly, but it certainly operated with a mixed composition
17 all the way up to what happened in Plitvice. And after these events the
18 ethnic Croat policemen could no longer come, and they didn't come to work,
19 to work at the police station in Plaski.
20 Q. Does that mean that after the events in Plitvice on the 1st of
21 April, 1991, in Plasko there were no more Croatian policemen. And do you
22 know whether in Saborsko a police outpost was being established of the
23 Ministry of the Interior of Croatia then?
24 A. Yes, yes.
25 Q. Do you know how big that police outpost in -- was, how many
1 policemen were employed there?
2 A. No, I wouldn't know that.
3 Q. You said that at one point in time the barracks in Licka Jesenica
4 were attacked, and you also said when answering the Prosecutor's questions
5 that this was during the summer, if I understood you correctly, of 1991
6 and that the attack was repelled. You did not tell us who it was that
7 launched this attack and where the attack came from and what kind of
8 equipment was used.
9 A. It was said then that these were forces of the Croatian MUP,
10 that's what people were saying, but I don't know. So the Croatian MUP.
11 Q. Did you hear what kind of equipment were -- was used to launch the
12 attack and from where, from what direction it was launched?
13 A. It was mortar fire before that, but the location of this barracks
14 itself -- or, rather, the depot, it is right in the middle of the forest
15 and there are high fir trees there. So it's from all directions -- I
16 mean, nobody ever controlled this area in absolute terms. You cannot say:
17 Right, this is it. This is where you can get through. So it could have
18 been anybody, and it could have come from all directions.
19 Q. Just one more question; if you can, answer it. Was the attack
20 launched by Serb forces or Croat forces or something like that?
21 A. Well, I don't know. Maybe there were Serbs among them, too, who
22 were mobilised in the Croatian -- well, I don't know. I cannot say.
23 Q. Does this answer of yours mean that these were Croatian units or
24 Serb units? That's what I meant "units."
25 A. Well, if I said that it was the MUP of Croatia, then I guess it
1 can be understood.
2 Q. Thank you for your answer.
3 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe that it
4 would be a good moment to take a break.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Milovancevic.
6 Court adjourned. Come back at 20 to 1.00.
7 --- Recess taken at 12.21 p.m.
8 --- On resuming at 12.40 p.m.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic, I remind you once again that you
10 have still not started cross-examining on the Martic police, and we are --
11 we are concerned because time is running out.
12 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Q. Witness, we have just discussed the attack on the barracks in
14 Licka Jesenica mounted by the Croatian police. Do you know when that
15 happened? Could you give us a time-frame?
16 A. I think it was just before the attack on Saborsko.
17 Q. When you were responding to questions from the Prosecution,
18 mention was made of an event at Kriz. It had to do with the letter
19 addressed to Spehar.
20 A. Rudolf Spehar.
21 Q. That's right. Do you know who was killed at this place, Kriz --
22 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear which Kriz.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know.
24 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. At Glibodol Kriz, was it Serbs, Bogdan Petrovic, Milan Susnjar,
1 and Bogdan Susnjar [as interpreted] who got killed? Are those the names?
2 A. Yes. There's an error. It's not Bogdan Susnjar, it's Milan and
3 Stevan Susnjar and Bogdan Petrovic.
4 Q. Thank you. You said they were from Plasko. Were they ethnic
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You said on that day they took the forest road to buy horses.
8 Were they wearing uniforms or civilian clothes; do you know?
9 A. I think only Bogdan Petrovic was wearing a uniform.
10 Q. Do you know that they were ambushed and butchered, killed, in an
11 atrocious manner and many injuries were found on the mutilated bodies of
12 these men. For instance, Bogdan's ears were cut off. He had several
13 stabbing wounds to the stomach. And the doctor later -- the coroner later
14 established that he took five or six hours to die. Milan had his one arm
15 cut off and a finger of another hand.
16 A. I didn't see the bodies but those were the rumours that I heard.
17 Q. Do you know that they were buried in a pit and the bodies, the
18 corpses of two horses who were also killed were thrown over their bodies?
19 A. Yes, I know. People in Plasko were saying that.
20 Q. Do you know that there were over 150 bullet holes on the tractor
21 and ten bullet holes on the small Fiat 750 car?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You said in your statement to the OTP that sometime in October or
24 November active-duty JNA officers came and established the TO in Plasko as
25 a separate brigade called the Plasko brigade. Was it a JNA brigade?
1 A. That Territorial Defence that was organised by the
2 then-municipality of Plaski was very briefly under the command of that
3 Nikola Dokmanovic. Very soon afterwards - but please don't take my word
4 for it - a group of about 18 JNA officers arrived headed by this man,
5 Trbojevic, and they set up a brigade and they called it 124th Light
6 Infantry Brigade.
7 Q. You did your military service and you were a member of the
8 Territorial Defence. Do you know if the JNA and the Ministry of Defence
9 had the sole power and authority to create such units according to the
11 A. I think so.
12 Q. Speaking of this operation near Saborsko on the 12th of November,
13 1991, you explained that just before that operation the commander of this
14 newly established Plaski Brigade was visited by the commander of the
15 Tactical Group 2, Cedomir Bulat, and that you found out from that visit
16 that there would be an attack mounted on Saborsko.
17 A. I'll try to explain. In the immediate vicinity of Plasko, there
18 was a big military training ground on the road from Plaski to Slunj. It's
19 a large area formerly called Tobolic Zbijeg [phoen] and most of JNA troops
20 were stationed there. In peacetime, while Yugoslavia still existed, it
21 used to be a training ground and shooting range, and all this installation
22 remained standing. And whenever troops of the JNA came to our area they
23 would be stationed there.
24 One of the officers on that training ground was Cedomir Bulat, and
25 he often came to see Trbojevic. On the occasion of one of these visits,
1 the rumour was started that there would be an attack on Saborsko. But I
2 cannot tell you anything more precisely because I wasn't there. I wasn't
3 privy to their talk.
4 Q. So can I conclude that you were aware that Cedomir Bulat as a JNA
5 officer came to see Petar Trbojevic, who was commander of this Plaski
6 Brigade just before this operation, the attack?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Thank you. When you were describing the creation of this Plaski
9 Brigade, you explained that until November 1991 the infantry of the
10 Territorial Defence that would later become the Plaski Brigade had
11 semi-automatic rifles and machine-guns in their arsenal and that every
12 battalion had two or three mortars. Is that what you said, approximately?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You also explained that once this Plaski Brigade was established
15 the JNA brought tanks, armoured personnel carriers, and cannons, and you
16 explained the Plaski Brigade had six to eight tanks, five to six APCs,
17 three Howitzers, 130-millimetres, three mortars, and ten anti-aircraft
18 guns. Is that so?
19 A. Yes.
24 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I think we need that -- a redaction of
25 that last answer. It was very specific.
1 Also -- also, it seems to me that the questions continue to be
2 beyond what cross-examination is supposed to be about. These questions
3 pertain neither to Martic's police nor, as far as I can tell, to any of
4 the questions that I put to the witness, which I concede are fair game for
5 cross-examination. Of course he can ask -- cross-examine on the questions
6 that I put to the witness, but these questions that we're having now are
7 still not about Martic's police and not about the questions that I put to
8 the witness. And I'm just concerned about that.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Whiting.
10 May that question at page 64, starting at line 6 to 8, please be
12 Mr. Milovancevic, I think I've asked you several times to please
13 get to the questions that you're allowed to ask the witness about. I'm
14 now telling you, if you ask one more question that has nothing to do with
15 what you're supposed to ask, I'm going to rule you out of order.
16 You may proceed.
17 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I take your point,
18 but just to avoid misunderstanding, lest I be misunderstood, I'm now
19 putting questions that have to do with the very attack on Saborsko, with
20 that operation. It's the JNA and members of the police who took part in
21 that operation, and I'm only trying, through the answers of the witness to
22 these questions, to establish which unit attacked Saborsko on that day so
23 as to get to the answer who was in command, who was subordinated, if there
24 was any concerted action and cooperation, et (redacted)
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic, you're once again causing a
5 Can that statement please be redacted, that sentence starting from
6 line 11 to line 13 of page 65.
7 And, Mr. Milovancevic, can you please get to where you say you are
8 getting and ask the questions that are relevant. If the Bench thinks
9 you're asking questions that are not relevant, the Bench will rule you out
10 of order. I don't think the Bench still wants to hear your explanations
11 as to where you're going; just get there.
12 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
13 May I ask that we move to private session now because of the
14 nature of -- the identifying nature of my following questions?
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
16 [Private session]
11 Pages 2787-2805 redacted. Private session.
23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,
24 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 29th day of
25 March, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.