1 Wednesday, 14 June 2006
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.23 p.m.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: A few housekeeping issues before we start.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry we couldn't hear.
7 First of all, either yesterday or day, Mr. Milovancevic, we were
8 talking about an application for confidential material in this case. It's
9 a pity Mr. Whiting is not here; I think he is the one who raised the
10 matter. And you indicated, Mr. Milovancevic, that you were hearing of
11 that application for the first time in court, here, that day. Registry
12 has provided proof of delivery of that application to the Defence and it
13 was delivered to one Predrag Milovancevic. Do you know him? On the 30th
14 of May, 2006, at 1656.14 seconds. Do you remember -- do you know that
15 gentleman, Mr. Milovancevic?
16 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is me. Thank
17 you. However, this is what my assistant, Mr. Sekulic, is in charge of and
18 I told you then that he wasn't there at the moment and at the moment I was
19 addressing you I did not have that information.
20 I don't have any doubt -- any reason to doubt that this
21 information that you have just shared with us is correct. So this is me
22 and I'm that person. And as far as the Defence counsel is concerned, I
23 spoke to Mr. Sekulic. We looked at the material, and we are not opposed
24 to that request. We are in agreement with that request. Thank you, and
25 please accept my apologies for this situation. I hope I've managed to
1 explain how this came about.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Milovancevic. That's
3 fine. That will be fine -- the purpose of asking was just to make sure
4 that we make -- we make you aware you have received the document. Thank
5 you so much.
6 Then we'll hear from the Prosecution, either when Mr. Whiting is
7 present or if the other members are privy to this issue they can tell us
8 what the Prosecution intends to do.
9 Yes, Ms. Valabhji.
10 MS. VALABHJI: Yes, Your Honour, just to inform the Chamber that
11 we have filed the response just a little while ago, so it's now being
12 processed with the Registry.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Ms. Valabhji.
14 MS. VALABHJI: Thank you.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: The next question, again coming back to you,
16 Mr. Milovancevic, and I ask this with trepidation; I don't usually ask
17 this kind of question. But in the interests of expeditiousness, I'm going
18 to have to ask you this question. Are you able to say at this stage
19 whether the Defence will be filing a 98 bis application or not? If I'm
20 putting you in a spot, please feel free.
21 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will gladly
22 answer this question, if I'm able to. As far as seeking approval of the
23 Trial Chamber, we spoke about that. I'm talking about the certification.
24 We have some difficulties at this moment, and I believe that we will do
25 it by Friday. I'm sure that we will.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic, we're talking at cross-purposes.
2 I'm talking about a 98 bis, you're talking about a certification.
3 Certification is the next item I'm coming to. Can we deal with 98 bis
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] If we're talking about the
7 submission on the oral notification of the Defence counsel, if that is
8 what you had in mind, Your Honours, this is something that we have to
9 submit after the lapse of five months into trial. And we have been
10 working here at full speed. We will need some time for this kind of oral
11 submission. If I have understood your question well, we are talking about
12 you Rule 98 bis, and the Rule 98 bis that I have before me deals with the
13 oral decisions of the Chamber after both parties have been heard. If this
14 is what we are talking about, although I'm not sure, I have my
15 reservations about that, I have the text of the rule before me. This is a
16 translation from English into B/C/S, and I'm looking at this Rule 98 bis.
17 This has to do with acquittal. And it says here: "At the close of the
18 Prosecutor's case, the Trial Chamber shall by oral decisions on -- after
19 hearing the oral submissions of the parties enter a judgement."
20 If you're asking about our arguments and if this is what we're
21 talking about, and if you want to hear about our oral submissions, then
22 this is what I can tell you at the moment. We will probably need some ten
23 days or so. Your Honour, at this moment, our situation is compounded by
24 the status of Mr. Babic's testimony and the fact that the Prosecution case
25 is still ongoing. There will be a lot more problems with regard to the
1 number of victims, the nature of victims. So I really don't know what the
2 Prosecution still wants to do, what is still their case, but judging at
3 what has been presented so far, this is very serious. We're dealing with
4 several thousands of pages of transcript, and we would require some time
5 to look at all that and this is the position on the Defence.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: The chickens have come back home to roost. As I
7 said at the beginning, I shouldn't have asked this question. We are
8 obviously at cross-purposes, Mr. Milovancevic. You are now asking for ten
9 days. Remember, we've giving a scheduling order and that scheduling order
10 stands. It deals with the question of 98 bis. All I wanted to know was
11 whether or not the Defence does intend making that 98 bis application.
12 And -- that's all I wanted to find out. And I think let's leave the
13 matter at that point because what you have said is now complicating the
14 whole issue and I wouldn't like to go into all those things that you have
16 Let me then go to the third point. Yes? Did you want to say
17 something, Mr. Milovancevic?
18 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just a short
19 sentence. With regard to the scheduling order, we sent a submission
20 earlier today and I have nothing further to add to that. I have heard
21 your instruction and I am sorry that I went beyond the scope of your
22 question in my previous argument. This was not my intention. The rule
23 itself --
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, that's fine, Mr. Milovancevic. I understand.
25 I'm not finding fault with you; I'm just regretting raising the issue.
1 Your submissions on certification -- I beg your pardon -- yeah, on
2 certification I have -- I beg your pardon, on scheduling we haven't seen.
3 So that's why I -- I said that the scheduling order stands because we
4 hadn't seen -- we haven't seen them. Personally I haven't seen them.
5 On the Babic certification, you indicated the other day that the
6 Defence is going to be noting an appeal. Just to mention to you that your
7 last day is the 16th of this month, and that being so I wanted to find out
8 from the Prosecution whether any response could be filed from their side,
9 at least by the 19th? That's Monday.
10 MR. BLACK: Yes, Your Honour, we'll do that.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: You'll do that?
12 MR. BLACK: Yes.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
14 The last point I wanted to raise with the parties is about the
15 testimony of Witness MM-080. I guess the parties will have been -- will
16 have received transcripts of that witness's testimony, most of which the
17 Chamber feels was given in private session, when in fact it could have
18 been given in open session. The Chamber has given -- has asked that you
19 be given those -- that transcript, so you exercise your mind on it whether
20 you agree with the Chamber, and if you don't make your submissions. And
21 if you -- and if you don't make those submissions, then the Chamber will
22 have to lift the embargo on those parts that are highlighted.
23 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, could I ask that we have until tomorrow
24 to make those submissions? Mr. Whiting is out of the country right now,
25 and he is the one most familiar with this evidence.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's fine.
2 MR. BLACK: Thank you.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Would that be okay by you, Mr. Milovancevic, until
5 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we can do it right
6 now and we can say that we agree with the position of the Chamber. We
7 have only tried to honour the measures that are applied to the witness and
8 this is what has been a bit of a problem. Thank you very much.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Milovancevic. We'll hear
10 from the Prosecution tomorrow and then we'll deal with that part. That
11 brings me to the end housekeeping matters from the Bench.
12 Any from your side?
13 Nothing from your side, Mr. Milovancevic?
14 Who do I look at, Mr. Black?
15 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.
16 MR. BLACK: Yes, Your Honour, I'll be calling the next witness, if
17 she could be brought in, her name is Sanja Risovic.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Sanja Risovic.
19 [The witness entered court]
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the witness please make the declaration.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
22 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You may be seated, ma'am.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Black.
1 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 WITNESS: SANJA RISOVIC
3 [Witness answered through interpreter]
4 Examination by Mr. Black:
5 Q. Good afternoon. Ms. Risovic, can you hear me okay? Are you
6 receiving interpretation through the headphones?
7 A. I can hear you. I am receiving interpretation.
8 Q. Thank you. Let's begin. Will you please state your full name for
9 the record -- is your -- are you having a problem with the headphones?
10 A. I have a problem. It's been on and off. The interpretation has
11 been on and off.
12 Q. Can you hear me -- can you hear me now okay?
13 A. This here, this one here -- I can hear you but the reception is
14 not so good on one side.
15 Q. Thank you for mentioning that. We'll give you a new set of
16 headphones and see if that solves the problem. Perhaps that's a little
17 better. Can you understand me now?
18 A. Yes, this is better.
19 Q. Okay. Thank you. And if you do have any more problems, please
20 don't hesitate to raise it with me.
21 A. Very well.
22 Q. Would you please state your full name for the record.
23 A. My name is Sanja Risovic.
24 Q. On what day were you born?
25 A. I was born on 9 December 1964.
1 Q. And where were you born?
2 A. I was born in Vinkovci.
3 Q. In 1990 you went to work for the Croatian Railways in Vinkovci.
4 Is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And when did you move to Zagreb?
7 A. I moved to Zagreb in November 1991.
8 Q. Do you have any children, Ms. Risovic?
9 A. I have a daughter.
10 Q. When was she born, on what date?
11 A. My daughter was born on 1st January 1995.
12 Q. I'd like to turn your attention now to the 2nd of May, 1995.
13 First of all, can you tell us what the day was like on the 2nd of May,
15 A. The day was a lovely spring day, a sunny day, very nice day.
16 Q. And where were you on that morning?
17 A. Since I was on maternity leave, I was on my way to my GP, and then
18 I went to my work-place, to the Croatian Railways to the department where
19 I used to work. And then I went down-town, to the centre of town, to the
20 centre of Zagreb, of course.
21 Q. Thank you. What was the atmosphere there in the centre of Zagreb
22 on the morning of May 2nd, 1995?
23 A. There were a lot of people moving about, people going to work,
24 children going to school. Nothing out of the ordinary. Women going to
25 the green market. There were a lot of people in the streets. The day was
1 really lovely, and there were lots of strollers as a result of that, I
3 Q. Had there been any warning or any indication that there could be
4 an attack on Zagreb on that day?
5 A. As far as I know, there was none. Everything was normal as far as
6 I could see. The people that I worked with all came to work. My GP was
7 in her office. The trams were running, as on any other day. Everything
8 was normal.
9 Q. What, in fact, happened that morning?
10 A. On my way back, I found myself at Tomislav Square in front of the
11 railway station. I was standing at a tram stop. I was waiting for my
12 tram to go home. I was in a hurry because I had a young child at home, so
13 I spent a very short time in town. And before I got on the tram, I heard
14 an explosion. I saw fire, smoke. I was looking towards Zrinjevac. And
15 we all assumed that there had been an explosion. People were surprised.
16 Tram came. I got on and I went home. As I came home, I said to everybody
17 there that something had exploded down-town and that we should turn on the
18 TV to watch the noon news. And it was then that I heard that there had
19 been an attack on Zagreb.
20 Q. What did you see on the news that day?
21 A. I saw cars ablaze, people carrying wounded, bloody persons. I saw
22 a tram that had been hit. They were showing the wounded and the streets
23 that had been hit, and I realised that I had been quite close to the area
24 because the distance between those sites and the place where I was
25 standing at the tram stop was about 200 to 300 metres.
1 Q. Were you injured at all on the 2nd of May, 1995?
2 A. No, I wasn't wounded on the 2nd of May, 1995.
3 Q. Just one more question before we turn our attention to the 3rd of
4 May. On the evening of May 2nd, 1995, did you see any news reports or any
5 media that evening?
6 A. I did. I was watching the prime-time news report. Everybody was
7 interested in what was going on. We were still a country at war, and we
8 were all following the news closely.
9 Q. And in the evening, did they continue to report about the events
10 of that morning that you had described as seeing on the news earlier in
11 the day? Did that coverage continue in the evening as well?
12 A. Yes, it did. They were reporting on the numbers of those killed
13 and wounded. They were reporting on the hospitals that had received the
14 wounded, who were all civilians. The streets involved were in the centre
15 of town. It was quite a shock. There was a lot of news coverage of that.
16 Q. Let me -- thank you. Let me turn your attention now to the 3rd of
17 May, the very next day. Did you have something planned for that day?
18 A. Yes, I had plans for the day. I gave birth to my child on the 1st
19 of January, 1995, whereupon my child was inoculated, but my child wasn't
20 feeling well so I was given an appointment on the 3rd of May, 1995, where
21 my child's pediatrician was going to decide whether the child was going to
22 be vaccinated again because the vaccination was due on the fourth month
23 of -- rather, four months after the child's birth. And I knew that I was
24 supposed to go to the children's hospital, Klaiceva, on that day.
25 Q. If you notice me pausing, I'm just waiting for the interpretation,
1 just so that's clear to you.
2 So did you go to this appointment at the children's hospital on
4 A. Yes, I did.
5 Q. Who were --
6 A. The following day.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I just ask a question. Is Klaiceva a suburb of
9 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, it's a street in Zagreb.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's a street in Zagreb. While I'm at it, let me
11 just ask this other one to you.
12 Zrinjevac, is that a suburb or a street? The witness said: "I
13 saw fire, smoke, I was looking towards Zrinjevac, and we all assumed there
14 had been an explosion." Z-r-i-n-j-e-v-a-c.
15 MR. BLACK:
16 Q. Ms. Risovic, if you heard His Honour's question, could you please
17 just state the name of that place or that street again and tell us what it
18 is, please.
19 A. The Tomislav Square is the square that is situated in front of the
20 railway station in the centre of town. Next to the square there's the
21 park called Zrinjevac park. The name of the street is -- the first
22 section is called Tomislav Square and then the name changes. At any rate,
23 it's a park and on the right-hand side of the park there's the county
24 court. It's the centre of town, and can be found on the axis running from
25 the Ban Jelacic Square to the central railway station in Zagreb. It's an
1 open area with parks and trees and monuments. I don't know if I've been
2 clear enough.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: More than enough. Thank you so much.
4 You may continue, Mr. Black.
5 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 Q. Ms. Risovic, thanks for the explanation. Who went with you, if
7 anyone, to the children's hospital on the 3rd of May, 1995?
8 A. My brother went along, my child, and myself. We were going to the
9 doctor's by car. By brother was taking me there for the medical check-up.
10 Q. Please tell us what happened while you were at the children's
12 A. We arrived at the children's hospital some 15 times ahead of the
13 scheduled meeting, which was at 10.30. We got into the waiting-room,
14 handed the medical documentation. I found a vacant seat, I sat down, and
15 I was waiting. This is a children's hospital and doctors tend to be late
16 or tend to be away because they have to attend to a child, and then they
17 tend to be away for quite a while. I sat down on the chair, whereas my
18 child was there with me. We had a blanket and we had everything. My
19 brother was there to help me because he was very, very concerned about my
20 daughter. He thought she was so small, a 4-month-old child. He was even
21 carrying her. Then the time had come for me to change her nappies, and
22 then I fed her. Eventually she fell asleep. A bit before 12.00 the
23 doctor arrived. She went into her office. With me in the waiting-room
24 there was another mom with her child, who was quite upset and crying all
25 the time. The doctor then said that she would receive that child first
1 because my daughter was asleep. As they went into the office I was trying
2 to arrange all the -- all my belongings that I had, all the things that I
3 needed for my child, so that I would be ready to go in. My brother kept
4 hurrying me in collecting these items because he was hoping that we would
5 thus be able to speed things along.
6 I asked him to go over to the office itself to see whether the
7 lady who was inside was finished or not so that I could go over and come
8 with my daughter. I apologise.
9 At the moment he was about to move and I was lifting Anamaria,
10 Anamaria is my daughter's name, as I lifted her in my arms, I heard a
11 blast. I heard the window-panes getting smashed -- I'm sorry.
12 Q. It's okay. Take your time. Perhaps the usher can hand you a
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, please. Maybe if the witness maybe would like
15 a -- a moment to compose herself and we can adjourn for five, ten minutes.
16 MR. BLACK:
17 Q. Ms. Risovic, if you can hear me, if you want to take a break now,
18 we can take a break for a few minutes or we can continue. It's entirely
19 up to you; whatever makes you feel more comfortable.
20 A. I apologise. Forgive me, please.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: There's nothing to apologise for. Thank you very
22 much, Ms. Risovic. We are concerned that you be comfortable. Would you
23 like some time to compose yourself? Shall we stop a little bit?
24 I suggest we stop for five, ten minutes.
25 Court adjourned.
1 --- Break taken at 2.58 p.m.
2 --- On resuming at 3.23 p.m.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you feel better now, Ms. Risovic?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. If you feel again overwhelmed
6 by emotion, please just indicate and we will take a break.
7 Mr. Black.
8 MR. BLACK: Thank you very much, Your Honour. Before I resume the
9 examination, on the issue of breaks, when would Your Honour like us to --
10 should we take the regular break at 3.30, or should we go a little beyond
11 that since we just had a break? What's your preference, Your Honour?
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Our preference is that maybe we take our break at
13 the regular time so that we don't get out of sync with the normal
14 schedule. I notice that it's only seven minutes to go, but so be it.
15 MR. BLACK: Okay. Thank you very much, Your Honour.
16 Q. Ms. Risovic, I realise that these are painful memories for you, so
17 I'm sorry to ask you to go back to this. But just before the break you
18 told us how you heard a blast and you heard window-panes getting smashed.
19 Now, can you please continue. Tell us what happened at that point.
20 A. As I was holding the child in my arms, I went forward. There was
21 a table blocking my way. I pushed it aside and I maybe made one step
22 only. At that point I felt as if someone had hit me on my back. I don't
23 know how to explain this. As if someone had taken a chair and hit me with
24 it. I had the child in my arms and I was bending over. I was hunched a
25 bit. I can't really say how long this lasted. I didn't have the feeling
1 of the time. I was standing there with my child, and next to me there was
2 a man. I don't even recall his face. I just told him: Please, take my
3 child. I think everybody must have been in shock because nobody reacted
4 to what I said, and I was unable to move at all. I wasn't able to move my
5 right leg.
6 I retreated. I went back and there was a wall there. I leaned
7 against the wall and slid down. I started yelling out, calling my
8 brother. He came to me. I told him to take Anamaria and take her
9 somewhere safe. I wanted at least the two of them to be safe. As he took
10 the child from my arms, I noticed that my child's head was covered in
11 blood. I was terribly shocked. Before calling my brother, she burst into
12 tears. And as I tried to hush her, she simply went silent. I wasn't even
13 sure whether my child was still alive or what her condition was. My
14 brother went running away with her and then returned after a while. I
15 kept telling him "go away, go away," because I was afraid that again there
16 was going to be another attack and at least I wanted -- if someone had to
17 die, I wanted it to be me. He was thinking aloud at the time, what was he
18 going to do with me, where should he take me, where were the doctors.
19 Then one doctor came to us. This was of course the
20 paediatrician's office, and there was another lady doctor, she had blonde
21 hair, and they called some other staff to help them and they took me
22 upstairs to the children's hospital surgery ward. There they undressed
23 me, they X-rayed the upper part of my body. I realised at that point that
24 something was wrong with my black. They placed compresses on the wound
25 and they placed me on stretchers and took me outside.
1 Then I could hear them calling all the centres in Zagreb to see
2 which of the hospitals had a team ready to come and pick us up. There
3 were three of us in the corridor, three of us who were wounded. I know
4 that I was the first one to be taken away. I was taken to the Vinogradska
5 hospital in Zagreb, to the surgery ward there. I was a bit of a trouble
6 to them because I kept asking after my daughter. I didn't know what had
7 happened to her. I asked every single physician who approached me to give
8 a ring to Klaiceva hospital to inquire after my daughter. They were
9 trying to explain to me that they -- there was no time for me to dally,
10 that all the phone lines were down, that I had to sign the papers allowing
11 them to operate on me. I know that the one lady physician was urging me
12 to simply place a cross on the papers because I was unable to move my
13 right arm and I was all covered in blood. At one point then, though, they
14 told me that my child was fine, that she was very well, that they were in
15 a shelter, and that I should just place that cross on the papers, and that
16 they would then take me to the surgery theatre, and that was when I went
17 into surgery.
18 Q. Ms. Risovic, I think that's a good stopping point for the time
19 being. We have -- have to take a break, according to our ordinary
20 procedures, and then we'll come back and I'll just have a few more
21 questions for you?
22 MR. BLACK: Your Honours, I think this is a convenient time.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. We'll take a short break.
24 We'll come back at 4.00, Ms. Risovic.
25 Court adjourned.
1 --- Recess taken at 3.31 p.m.
2 --- On resuming at 4.00 p.m.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Black, you may proceed.
4 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Maybe before you proceed, I just wanted to suggest
6 that maybe we can take ten minutes off the next break just to try and
7 cover up, so if we can break at 25 past instead of quarter past. Thank
8 you very much.
9 MR. BLACK: Absolutely. Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Q. Ms. Risovic, can you hear me okay? Can you understand me clearly?
11 A. I hear you and I understand you clearly.
12 Q. What injuries did you suffer as a result of this experience which
13 you've just described to us on the 3rd of May, 1995?
14 A. I was wounded in the right shoulder blade so that one part of my
15 back muscle was removed as well as my shoulder blade. My ribs were
16 fractured, my lungs was also injured. I had a haemotosis of the lung. I
17 had -- in the lumbar region on the right side, I had a shrapnel there
18 which was wedged in the stomach muscle or some muscle there. I was
19 wounded in the right leg and the left foot, on the toes of the left foot,
20 that is.
21 Q. I -- just very quickly, I'd like to show you two photographs. The
22 first one has the ERN 05051029.
23 MR. BLACK: If we could see that in e-court, please.
24 Q. Ms. Risovic, are you able to see the photograph on the screen in
25 front of you?
1 A. Yes, I am.
2 Q. And does that show -- is that you, does that show the injury to
3 your back?
4 A. Yes, this is my back.
5 MR. BLACK: Could we show the next -- the next document, please.
6 It's 05051030.
7 Q. Is that another photograph of your back and shoulder area?
8 A. It is indeed. This is a photo of my back.
9 Q. And just for the record, were these two photos taken of you
10 yesterday when you came to the Tribunal?
11 A. Yes. These were taken yesterday when I arrived here.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, could these be admitted into evidence,
14 please? I guess two separate exhibit numbers because they are two
15 separate documents in e-court, please.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the two pictures please be given two separate
17 exhibit numbers. They are admitted into evidence.
18 THE REGISTRAR: That will be exhibits number 794 and exhibits
19 number 795, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
21 Yes, Mr. Black.
22 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Q. Ms. Risovic, how long -- just before the last break you explained
24 that you went into surgery. How long were you actually in the hospital?
25 A. I stayed in the hospital until the 16th of June, and then I was
1 transferred to Krapinska Toplica for rehabilitation and I stayed there
2 until the month of August, until the 10th of August when I was discharged.
3 I may have been mistaken on the date of discharge from the spa, but I know
4 that I was discharged from the hospital on the 16th of June.
5 Q. How many surgeries have you had altogether since -- since you were
7 A. Since I was injured, I have had a total of 11 surgical procedures.
8 I had six separate surgical corrections on the back performed by plastic
9 surgeons. When I was wounded, I had two surgeries. Then my hand had to
10 be operated on, some fragments of metal had to be removed. All in all,
11 I've had 11 surgical procedures.
12 Q. At this time, do you still have any rehabilitation work or are you
13 having any ongoing treatment to this day?
14 A. Every year I have to spend three weeks in re habilitation and I'm
15 also being treated for rheumatoid arthritis which is a congenital disease,
16 but it is aggravated by stress and shock. And that is why my hands are
17 deformed, my fists that is. I have to work on my muscles, especially on
18 the right-hand side because I am a typical right-handed person. I work
19 with my right hand every day, and there are still some things that I'm not
20 able to do on my own without other people's help.
21 Q. Have these injuries affected your ability to work?
22 A. They have. Sometimes I find it very difficult to have to do a lot
23 of writing or if I have to work hard I sometimes suffer pain in the back.
24 I find it very difficult to remain seated. Generally speaking, I am not
25 allowed to carry any weight in my right hand. For example, today I was in
1 a situation to have to wash my hair, and I can only do it when one arm,
2 one hand. I cannot lift my right hand above my head. I had to go to --
3 to look for a hair-dresser just to find somebody who will wash my hair.
4 And these are problems that I encounter in my everyday life. There are a
5 lot of things I am not able to do in my house.
6 Q. Have the injuries had any impact on your ability to take care of
7 your young daughter?
8 A. Of course they have. My child was 4 months old at the time. When
9 I decided to have the child, I wanted to be her mother, I wanted to extend
10 all my love and tenderness to her, to be with her. And at one point I was
11 no longer able to be with her. And when I was eventually discharged, I
12 couldn't carry my child. I couldn't change her diapers because for a long
13 time I could not move my right hand. I could not feed my baby. At the
14 end of the day, my motherhood, a lot of it, a good part of my motherhood,
15 was spent at various hospitals in rehabilitation. And at one point my
16 child was asked at the kindergarten where her mother was. She said: My
17 mother lives at home in a green building and in a hotel. The green
18 building was the hospital and a hotel was the spa. I was shocked. I
19 didn't understand how she could say something like that, but it only made
20 sense because if the -- her mother didn't live with her, she perceived the
21 places where I was as my home. I spent very little time with her,
22 unfortunately, and all my life I will regret the fact that I did not spend
23 more time with my baby. Every mother wants to spend as much time with
24 their child as they possibly can, to nurture and to look after their baby.
25 And in my life there came a time when I could not look after my child in
1 any way.
2 Q. Ms. Risovic, I'm getting close to the end of my questions. I'd
3 like to show you a couple of photographs, and with the assistance of the
4 court officer and the usher, if we could see trial exhibit 387, please.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: While we're seeing trial exhibit 387, Ms. Risovic,
6 you just mentioned a little earlier that you can't sit for a long time.
7 Is that -- did I hear you correctly?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: If you feel tired while you are sitting there,
10 please do let us know so we give you time to move about and get better.
11 Okay? Thank you very much.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Before my
13 testimony I took some painkillers, and I will be all right, I hope. I
14 believe that I'll be able to sit through my testimony.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
16 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Q. Ms. Risovic, if you can see the photographs on the screen in front
18 of you.
19 MR. BLACK: If we could perhaps blow-up photograph F-1, please, if
20 we could zoom in on that a little.
21 Q. Ms. Risovic, can you recognise this place in photograph F-1?
22 A. This is the main entrance into the children's hospital Klaiceva --
23 in Klaiceva Street. On the right-hand side you can see the kiosk, in the
24 middle there is the entrance, and on the left-hand side there is the
25 optician's store.
1 Q. Thank you?
2 MR. BLACK: Could we go to the next page of the document, please.
3 I'm looking for photograph F-3.
4 Q. Do you recognise that?
5 A. Yes. This is the main entrance through which you entered the
7 MR. BLACK: And if we could go a couple of pages ahead, please, to
8 photograph F-8.
9 Q. Do you recognise that place, Ms. Risovic?
10 A. This is the corridor -- actually, the waiting-room, where I was
11 when I was at the Klaiceva hospital.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 MR. BLACK: I'm done with that exhibit.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the waiting-room.
15 MR. BLACK:
16 Q. Ms. Risovic, have you watched any part of this trial on
18 A. Yes, I have, a good part of it. I have followed the information
19 about this trial. I have read things in the papers, I've watched the
20 news, and there are regular reports on teletext, so every evening I read
21 what is going on.
22 Q. And have you had any reaction while watching the trial?
23 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't see a
24 point in this question, the witness's reaction to the reports on this
25 trial. The witness is a fact witness and she is here to tell us what she
1 experienced and what she knows about the event that took place 11 years
2 ago. And now the Prosecutor is asking the witness about her impressions
3 of the trial. Maybe he should ask her what she thinks about me, my
4 co-counsel, the Trial Chamber. Is that what he's aiming for?
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Black.
6 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, I don't think it -- there's any reason to
7 be facetious or sarcastic. I expect -- I can't say what the witness's
8 answer will be for sure, but I think she has some evidence which would go
9 to remorse or lack of remorse which are factors in sentencing,
10 Your Honour, and therefore I think they're relevant.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Our problem is -- do you have any reply to that,
12 Mr. Milovancevic?
13 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] My learned friend is examining
14 his witness about the remorse of the accused, I suppose, before we have
15 heard the Defence case. Very interesting, Your Honours, really very, very
17 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, if I may respond, that's the procedure
18 here. There's not a separate sentencing phase, that's not the way things
19 work here. Sentencing is wrapped up in the evidence as we go along. Our
20 case is almost over.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's -- I was just about to ask that question,
22 and for that reason I'll allow the question to stand.
23 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Q. Ms. Risovic, if you remember the question, I was asking you if
25 you'd had any reaction to anything in this trial that you've seen as you
1 followed it.
2 A. Yes, I do have a reaction to this trial that I've been following.
3 I'm very sorry for any person who dies, gets sick, or killed for -- no
4 matter what reason. I empathise with all the emotions of all people, and
5 at one point I was really unnerved by the fact that the accused, Mr. Milan
6 Martic, when Mr. Milosevic killed himself, was depressed. I always
7 wondered if he was ever depressed when many people were harmed, for
8 example, me and many others over the course of those two days or during
9 the whole war. And this is what I was bothered me. I was depressed when
10 all this happened. I am experiencing a very hard time to this very day.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: But you do understand, though, that Mr. Milosevic
12 didn't kill himself.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He died.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: The interpretation said: You said he killed
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
18 MR. BLACK: No further questions, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
20 Mr. Milovancevic.
21 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. The
22 Defence does not have any questions of this witness, Ms. Risovic.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Milovancevic.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Ms. Risovic, I am going to ask you a few questions.
1 Questioned by the Court:
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: You told us that when you looked at your baby in
3 your brother's arms you saw blood on her head. Did you get to find out
4 whether she was injured or not? Let me put the question differently.
5 Did you get to find out what -- where that blood had come from?
6 A. I managed to find out where the blood had come from. That
7 evening, after I was operated on, I woke up and I always inquired after my
8 child, how she was, what had happened. And then my parents and my brother
9 brought her to the hospital so I could see her through the glass
10 partition, as I was in the ICU. They wanted me to see that she was okay,
11 that she was only slightly injured on the middle finger of the left hand.
12 That same evening the baby was also operated on for that injury. And then
13 in order to put my mind at rest and to help me go through my ordeal, they
14 brought the child over to the hospital, for me to see her.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do I understand you to be saying that the blood
16 that you had seen on her head had come from the injury on the finger?
17 A. No, no. That blood on her head was from my injury. Her head was
18 very close to my right shoulder.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: What work did you used to do at the railways before
20 the injuries?
21 A. I was an administrative worker and I still do the same thing, but
22 now, although I work full time, I work at a somewhat lower intensity.
23 They have provided me with a computer, with an anatomic chair. My work
24 conditions have been improved to a certain extent.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: To accommodate your health condition?
1 A. Yes. If I may add something, Your Honour. In Croatia people with
2 a high degree of disability, if there's still work they are allowed some
3 adjustments that are in keeping with their health conditions. That is why
4 at my work-place they have provided me with some facilities to accommodate
5 my needs.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you know whether your brother was injured on
7 this occasion?
8 A. I know my brother was not injured. At that moment when the shell
9 hit, he was already behind a wall. In the waiting-room the roof is made
10 of glass, but he was already behind a wall and he could not be injured by
11 the shell.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: If I remember your testimony well, I think you
13 indicated that when you were transferred there were three of you ladies
14 who were injured. Is that right?
15 A. No. I said that there were three persons, and later on I learned
16 that one of them was a woman and the other person was a male. I only -- I
17 said that there were three persons, if I'm not mistaken, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Thanks for correcting me.
19 Did you get to know who they were?
20 A. Yes, I did. One of them was Ms. Mirna Kostovic, who was injured
21 before the Croatian national theatre; and Mr. Zvonko Bakula was the other
22 person and he was in charge of maintenance in Klaiceva hospital. He was in
23 charge of the heating system or something. He had been injured in the
24 courtyard of that hospital.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did you get to know the extent of their injuries?
1 A. As for Ms. Kostovic's injury, I know that she sustained serious
2 injuries but I don't know what the nature of those was; and Mr. Bakula, I
3 met him later on in the hospital, in Vinogradska hospital, where we were
4 both hospitalised, and I know that he also suffered injuries to his
5 lateral right side, that he was injured in the back, in the legs. He is
6 older than me and he was retired. He was retired on account of his
7 injuries, so he no longer works, he is no longer in employment.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you know if any other people beyond the three of
9 you were injured in this hospital?
10 A. I know, I know that a pregnant lady was injured in the
11 waiting-room. In the waiting-room where I was, there's a gynaecolocical
12 office, then a paediatric office, an ENT office, an X-ray office. I know
13 that a pregnant lady was injured. In front of the hospital a policeman
14 was killed. I know that some children were injured but I don't know how
15 many of them. I know that one or two sustained injuries or lacerations
16 from the fragmented glass. I don't know of anybody else who was injured
17 in that hospital.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Ms. Risovic. That concludes
19 my questions.
20 Mr. Black, any questions arising?
21 MR. BLACK: None, Your Honour. Thank you.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic, any questions arising?
23 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. Thank you.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
25 Ms. Risovic, this brings us to the end of your testimony. On
1 behalf of the Tribunal, let me take this opportunity to thank you for
2 coming to testify. We thank you very much for your testimony and we hope
3 that you get better in your health. We thank you so much. You may stand
4 down. You are excused from further attending court.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
7 [The witness withdrew]
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Black?
9 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, Ms. Richterova will handle the next
10 witness. May I be excused from the courtroom?
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are accused, Mr. Black.
12 MR. BLACK: Thank you very much.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Ms. Richterova.
14 MS. RICHTEROVA: Your Honour, the Prosecution will call Ivan
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: May Ivan Mikulcic please come through.
17 [The witness entered court]
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the witness please make the declaration.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
20 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You may be seated, sir.
22 Thank you very much.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Ms. Richterova.
25 WITNESS: IVAN MIKULCIC
1 [Witness answered through interpreter]
2 Examination by Ms. Richterova:
3 Q. Good afternoon, Witness.
4 A. Good afternoon.
5 Q. Are you receiving interpretation through the earphones? Can you
6 hear properly?
7 A. Yes, I can hear you very well.
8 Q. Can you please state your full name.
9 A. My name is Ivan Mikulcic.
10 Q. When were you born?
11 A. On the 18th of July, 1938.
12 Q. Mr. Mikulcic, I would like to turn your attention to the events in
13 May 1995. Where did you live in May 1995, which village?
14 A. The village of Pleso, Mikulcica Street, 11.
15 Q. Can you tell us where this village is located, in respect to
17 A. In the vicinity of Velika Gorica and some 500 metres from the
18 airport as the crow flies.
19 MS. RICHTEROVA: Your Honours, I would like to refer you to the
20 page 38 of the concise atlas, and you would see the village of Pleso in
21 the right bottom corner. And it's grid E3.
22 Q. You stated that there was an airport. Is it -- are you referring
23 to Zagreb airport?
24 A. Precisely so, the Zagreb airport.
25 Q. At this airport, to your knowledge, were there any armed forces
2 A. I don't know of any armed forces being stationed there.
3 Q. You don't know whether Croatian armed forces were stationed there.
4 Is it correct?
5 A. I don't know that the Croatian armed forces were stationed there.
6 I only know that UNPROFOR was stationed there that year.
7 Q. I would like to turn your attention to the 2nd of May. Where were
8 you in the morning of that day?
9 A. On that day, the 2nd of May, 1995, I was at my home at Pleso,
10 Mikulciceva Street, 17 --
11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, 17 is the number, not
13 MS. RICHTEROVA:
14 Q. Who was there with you?
15 A. My wife, Stefica, with our granddaughter, who was 9 months old at
16 the time, my granddaughter Lucija.
17 Q. Can you tell the Judges what happened that morning.
18 A. On that morning at around 10.00, shelling started, and an
19 unexploded cluster bomb of the Orkan type landed in my yard about 8 metres
20 away from me and it impacted the ground entering the ground some 3 and a
21 half metres. Some of the bomblets of the bomb remained unexploded, but
22 there was one that exploded some 4 metres behind my back, injuring me and
23 damaging my home.
24 Q. You started saying that day shelling started and this bomb landed
25 on your property. Where were you at the moment when the bomb landed on
1 your property?
2 A. At that point, I was on my to the shelter and I only managed to
3 get hold of the door-knob when I felt this very sharp pain in my back.
4 And to this day I've been carrying three pieces of shrapnel in my back.
5 Q. Does it mean that you were outside of your house at that moment?
6 A. Yes, yes, outdoors, in front of the entrance to the cellar.
7 Q. And where was your wife with your granddaughter at that moment?
8 A. I told her to follow me along to the shelter because we had heard
9 the sound of explosions, but she basically saved herself by not listening
10 to me immediately. She stayed inside the house and she was holding our
11 granddaughter by her hand.
12 Q. You stated that you felt this very sharp pain in your back, you
13 were injured. What happened after that? What did you do after you felt
14 this pain?
15 A. I went over to my neighbour's, then I started feeling the heat in
16 my back and I touched my back and then I realised that I was bleeding. I
17 went to my neighbour, Ivica Zlodi, who took me over to the emergency
18 clinic at Velika Gorica.
19 MS. RICHTEROVA: I would like to show the witness a medical
20 report. It's ERN 03562337.
21 Q. Witness, in a moment you will see on your screen a document.
22 A. Yes, yes, I can see it and I understand what it is.
23 MS. RICHTEROVA: Can we please scroll down?
24 Q. Does it describe what kind of injury you sustained?
25 A. This is the exact description of it, and I am in possession of the
1 original documents.
2 MS. RICHTEROVA: We also have an English translation of this
3 document. I don't know whether the Judges have seen it.
4 Q. Can you please describe briefly what kind of injuries you
5 sustained, because many parts of this document are in Latin. Can you
6 describe where this -- the injury you sustained?
7 A. How shall I put it now? In my back to the left of the spine and
8 to the right of the spine, I had pieces of shrapnel, whereas one was
9 lodged between the fourth and the fifth vertebrae which was -- and so
10 there is two of them and none of them have been actually taken to this
12 Q. Will you explain why these shrapnels of metal were not taken out
13 of your body.
14 A. I, myself, put this same question to the physician. I believe his
15 name was Romic. And then he told me that they had to X-ray me twice
16 because they weren't sure the first time, and he told me that they were
17 thus placed that they would cause more damage by taking them out than by
18 leaving them there. He told me only if I started feeling uncomfortable
19 and feeling pain, that only then would I be operated on.
20 MS. RICHTEROVA: Your Honour, I would like to tender this document
21 into evidence.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
23 please be given an exhibit number.
24 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 796, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
1 MS. RICHTEROVA:
2 Q. Did this injury have any influence on your working ability?
3 A. Yes, largely. It largely did.
4 MS. RICHTEROVA: Can I show the witness document 03562335.
5 Can you scroll it down a little bit? A little bit more?
6 Q. Do you recognise this document?
7 A. Yes, I do.
8 Q. In the part with the explanation, it says: "The cited first
9 decision granted the above-named petitioner the status of civilian war
10 invalid of group X with 20 per cent permanent disability."
11 Is it correct -- true?
12 A. That's true. Apparently every two years I'm entitled to a review
13 of my status, and I find it quite ridiculous that they say that it's going
14 to be permanently established at 20 per cent because they told me that I
15 might have difficulties, that my situation may be aggravated, even today.
16 So my status should be open to change.
17 MS. RICHTEROVA: Your Honour, I would like to tender this document
18 into evidence.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
20 please be given an exhibit number.
21 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 797, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
23 MS. RICHTEROVA:
24 Q. Witness, when you were in hospital, what kind of treatment did you
1 A. I didn't receive any treatment in terms of having been
2 hospitalised because I wasn't hospitalised, I was simply X-rayed. My
3 wounds were dressed, and I was discharged. I might have spent some two
4 hours there.
5 Q. Did you -- did you go back to your house after you were discharged
6 from the hospital?
7 A. The Velika Gorica ambulance took me home.
8 Q. When you -- when you arrive home, what were you able to observe,
9 the -- first around your house and then in your neighbourhood?
10 A. It was only then that I fully took in what had happened. There
11 was this Zastava car outside, the so-called Fico. All the tires were
12 punctured, the front left door had been destroyed, then the garage door,
13 all the window-panes were shattered. All the -- as for the car itself, so
14 all the oil tank, the gas tank had all been punctured and destroyed. Now,
15 as for the house itself, both doors to the cellar were destroyed,
16 including the large window behind these doors, even the lamp in our living
17 room had been destroyed. Since several rockets landed, the bomblets were
18 exploding everywhere around so that the neighbouring houses were also
19 damaged. Of course, at the time we weren't aware of what was precisely
20 going on.
21 MS. RICHTEROVA: I would like to show the witness a map. It is 65
22 ter Exhibit Number 1683. And if we could go to page 21, the ERN number
23 should be 2444, the four last digits. Unfortunately I think this copy on
24 e-court looks worse than the hard copy.
25 Q. Witness, can you see the map in front of you? Can you please --
1 are you ail to indicate where your street is on this map?
2 A. Of course I can. This is my street, Mikulciceva Street.
3 Q. And can you also indicate which house on this street is yours.
4 A. The fifth house on the right-hand side from this street down
5 there, so this one here. The fifth house.
6 Q. There is a little star on this map. What does it indicate, to
7 your knowledge?
8 A. Yes. It's difficult for me to say what this stands for. Perhaps
9 bomblet or the entire rocket landed there. This should be the site at
10 which the Orkan rocket system landed.
11 Q. Was there more than one bomb which land in that area, in that
13 A. First we have to clarify one thing. This was a rocket system of
14 the Orkan cluster bomb which normally opens up in the air, and then
15 bomblets fall out of it over the entire area. And these bomblets were
16 landing all around my house covering a diameter of at least 200 metres.
17 So all the houses that were within the diameter of 200 metres were damaged
18 by these bomblets.
19 Q. And can you -- can you also please indicate which direction is the
20 Zagreb airport?
21 A. In this direction, here. Should I write it down?
22 Q. Is it -- we can see there is a street called Aerodromska. Is it
23 before this street or behind this street?
24 A. Would you please repeat your question. I don't understand.
25 Q. The direction you indicated, you can see that there is a street
1 called Aerodromska. Is the airport behind this street or still before
2 this street?
3 A. If you're looking at the area with Zagreb at your back, then it
4 would be in front of the Aerodromska Street.
5 Q. Okay. Thank you.
6 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Please could you explain that also. Seeing from
7 top down, as here, where would the airport be and where would Zagreb be?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The airport is here where I marked
9 the area, and Zagreb is over there. That's how the street goes.
10 MS. RICHTEROVA:
11 Q. Can you -- do you mean towards the top of this map? We can --
12 A. Zagreb is to the west.
13 MS. RICHTEROVA: We can see on this map there is orientation,
14 west, north, east --
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Going to the airport from your house, would you
16 cross that street called Aerodromska ul, or would you get to the airport
17 before crossing that street?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What can I tell you? I can reach
19 the airport along two routes. I can, for instance, go from my street to
20 the main street, going to the right and then to the left, and then this is
21 how I could reach the airport on foot. If I take the car, then I could
22 take Mikulciceva street, Plepeliceva Street, then the Aerodromska Street,
23 and then that's how I would get to the airport.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Once you're on Aerodromska Street, would the
25 airport be to your left -- to the west or to the east of Aerodromska
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Once I am on the Aerodromska Street,
3 then the airport is to my left, it's on the left-hand side.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Which is west? Would that be the western side?
5 Would it be towards the side of Zagreb or on the eastern side of
6 Aerodromska Street?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's to the west, as I said.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
9 Yes, Ms. Richterova.
10 MS. RICHTEROVA: I would like to tender this document into
11 evidence. Can we save the markings and tender this map into evidence?
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: The map with markings made on it, which must be
13 saved, is admitted into evidence and may it please be given an exhibit
14 number -- wait a minute. Before we admit it I have one question to ask.
15 Mr. Mikulcic, on this map here I see a lot of small dots smaller
16 than the one star that you showed us behind your house. What would those
17 be? Do you see those little dots, smaller stars than --
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do. I can see three of them
19 here. If -- you're referring to the stars?
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah, I see three stars, but then there are smaller
21 dots than the stars, which are many more around the houses.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you know what this could be?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I see them and I suppose that those
25 stand for bomblets which came out of the cluster bombs once they opened in
1 the air and landed in the area.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
3 May it -- may the exhibit be given an exhibit number, please.
4 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 798, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
6 Ms. Richterova.
7 MS. RICHTEROVA:
8 Q. Mr. Mikulcic, when you returned home, did you speak to your
10 A. Yes, I did. Everyone wanted to know if my wounds were critical,
11 but I reassured them, but of course people were concerned, people were
12 curious as to whether I had to go for another check-up at the hospital or
13 not, and so on and so forth.
14 Q. And could you tell us, what was their reaction to what happened in
15 their neighbourhood?
16 A. The reaction was that of sadness and embitteredness. Their roofs
17 were damaged, their households suffered, their window-panes were damaged.
18 I was wounded. There was no reason to be joyful, so to put it.
19 Q. And my last question: Had there been any warning that there was
20 going to be such an attack, such a shelling?
21 A. As far as I know, there was no warning, and if there had been I
22 would not be sitting here today. I would have found shelter before the
23 attack came.
24 Q. Thank you, Witness.
25 MS. RICHTEROVA: I concluded my examination-in-chief.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
2 Mr. Milovancevic.
3 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Cross-examination by Mr. Milovancevic:
5 Q. Good afternoon, Witness. I am attorney Predrag Milovancevic,
6 representing Mr. Martic. And now we shall embark on the so-called
7 cross-examination. Since we both speak the same language, for the
8 interpreters can you pause before you answer my questions. I'll try to
9 bear that in mind and I'm very grateful to you for your cooperation.
10 In the statement given to the OTP as a witness, it says that you
11 are retired. When were you retired, Mr. Mikulcic?
12 A. On the 31st of December, 1999.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 A. Not at all.
15 Q. You say that you were born in the village called Pleso, in the
16 vicinity of Zagreb. Does the airport bear the same name, Pleso? Am I
18 A. No, you are not right. The official name of the airport is the
19 Zagreb Airport, although the locals tend to call it the Pleso airport.
20 Q. Thank you very much.
21 A. Not at all.
22 Q. When you say "us locals call it Pleso," does that mean that this
23 is a common name of the airport or is it just a local name?
24 A. The official name of the airport is the Zagreb Airport, and we
25 locals call it Pleso.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 A. Not at all.
3 Q. In your statement to the OTP you also said that in 1991 during the
4 war in Croatia you had been mobilised, that you performed certain duties
5 in the civilian protection unit, and that you had some tasks in the
6 village of Pleso. These tasks in the village of Pleso, do they have
7 anything to do with the airport?
8 A. None whatsoever. I was mobilised to the war hospital, which was
9 part of the Velika Gorica medical centre.
10 Q. In your statement to the OTP you also explained that your house is
11 some 500 metres from the Zagreb airport or the Pleso airport as you call
13 A. The Zagreb airport. And as the crow flies - and I did not measure
14 it - according to my free estimate, it's about 5 to 600 metres.
15 Q. You've also told us that the UNPROFOR occupied the military part
16 of the airport?
17 A. I didn't say that they occupied it. They were stationed there.
18 Q. In that sense I used the word that is in your statement, but thank
19 you for the explanation. When you say that the UNPROFOR was stationed in
20 the military part of the airport, does that mean that this airport, even
21 before the UNPROFOR arrived this, also had a military function?
22 A. I said that the UNPROFOR was stationed at the Zagreb airport at
23 the time. Whether they were in the military part or the civilian part, I
24 wouldn't be able to tell you, sir, because I don't know.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 A. Not at all.
2 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Can the usher assist us with
3 distributing Mr. Mikulcic's statement.
4 Q. Mr. Mikulcic, before you is your statement. The first part may be
5 in English, I'm not sure. In any case, your statement contains one part
6 in your mother tongue and the other part is the translation into English.
7 If the first part is in English, then go on and find the part which is in
8 your own language.
9 Do you have the statement that you gave to the OTP under your
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. This is the statement given on the 27th of April, 2004. Is that
14 A. Yes, it is.
15 Q. In the text of the statement after the personal data that you
16 provided, there is your statement. And in the second paragraph you say,
17 in the second sentence: "I know the United Nations protection force took
18 over the military part of this airport." You explained how this
19 happened. "And in 1995 there were many UN civilians and soldiers, but
20 you don't know whether the Croatian army or air force was based at Pleso
21 camp at that time."
22 With regard to that part of your statement, this is what I would
23 like to ask you. Even before the UNPROFOR arrived, was the Pleso an
24 airport with a military part? That was my question.
25 A. I didn't know that. That's what I was aware of, that there was
1 the Croatian army there or anyone's army. There was no army there until
2 UNPROFOR, the United Nations, arrived, as far as I know.
3 Q. Can you please follow my question closely. When you say that the
4 UNPROFOR arrived in the military part of the airport, can you please tell
5 us when was it that the UNPROFOR arrived in the military part of the
6 airport? Do you remember the year?
7 A. It's very difficult for me to say. It's like asking me what day
8 was it the 2nd of May when I was wounded. I really can't remember.
9 Q. With regard to your explanation that the UNPROFOR arrived in the
10 military part of the airport, I'm asking you whether this was the -- I'm
11 not asking you whether this was the Croatian military part of the airport;
12 I'm asking you whether the Pleso airport had its military part even before
14 A. Yes, absolutely. The Zagreb airport is partly a civilian airport,
15 and it was partly used by the military. It was used by both.
16 Q. This is exactly the gist of my question. I may have not put my
17 question clearly enough. In the third paragraph you say that on the 2nd
18 of May when the explosion happened and when you were injured, the -- that
19 the morning was peaceful and that as far as you know there were no
20 military operations around Zagreb at the time. Were there military
21 operations elsewhere at the time? Did you hear anything or saw on TV?
22 A. I didn't hear anything and I can't tell you what I don't know. I
23 took the solemn declaration here that I will speak the truth and nothing
24 but the truth, so I can't tell you because I don't know.
25 Q. Thank you. Did you hear, for example, that on the 1st of May the
1 Operation Flash started, a joint operation by the Croatian armed forces
2 and the police on -- in Western Slavonia. Did you hear that?
3 A. Yes, I did. I cannot deny that. I heard it.
4 Q. With this regard I would like to know whether there were TV
5 reports on those operations and what was going on.
6 A. If there were, I did not watch that. I can't tell you.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 A. Not at all.
9 Q. In connection with the military operation in Western Slavonia, did
10 the Ministry of Defence or the Ministry of Police or the government of
11 Croatia provide any instruction to the population of Zagreb, the civilian
12 population of Zagreb, as to how to behave under war conditions? Before
13 you were injured did you have any instructions as to how to behave at the
14 beginning of May 1995?
15 A. What you're asking me now I did not have. However, I have
16 something else that we as the civilian protection were aware of, and that
17 is if there was to be shelling that we should seek shelter and that we
18 should switch off lights in our rooms to -- because there were other
19 shellings. This was not the only shelling. For example, the seat of the
20 government had been shelled before that, and it is a notorious fact.
21 Q. On that day, the 2nd of May, 1995, when these explosions were
22 heard, did you hear the alert before that, the military alert?
23 A. As far as I know, nothing could be heard. There was no alert
25 Q. You explained, Mr. Mikulcic, that you experienced pain in the
1 back, you saw that you were injured, you were hospitalised. And did I
2 understand you well when you said that you were taken to the hospital,
3 that you were seen by the doctor, and that you were returned by the
4 ambulance home on the same day?
5 A. You can read this on my discharge letter, you just have to read
6 it. It tells you exactly when I came to the outpatient hospital in Velika
7 Gorica, when I was taken to the Rebro hospital in Zagreb, and when I was
8 discharged and returned home. You can read it clear in my discharge
10 Q. Since it reads that in your discharge letter --
11 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we see Exhibit 796 on the
12 screen. We had it a little while ago. This is the discharge letter from
13 the clinical hospital centre Rebro, Zagreb. The date is 2nd of May 1995.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct.
15 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. In the upper right-hand corner, and it is not very legible, does
17 it say --
18 A. Yes, it does say the time of arrival -- first of all, the date of
19 arrival at the hospital 1100 hours, the time of discharge, 1300 hours.
20 Q. Thank you very much.
21 A. Not at all, sir.
22 Q. Can we look at the following document and it is 03562338 in B/C/S.
23 So that is one document behind this, by the number sequence.
24 This document that is now before you says that on the 4th of May,
25 the 5th of May, 1995, the 8th of May, the 9th of May, the 10th of May, the
1 11th, 12th, 15, and 19 of May, I don't know whether I was too fast?
2 A. No, you were not.
3 Q. That on that days you went to the hospital to see the physician
4 for check-ups. Is that correct?
5 A. Can I please correct you? I didn't go anywhere. I was taken by
6 car. I was in such condition that I had to be transported either by
7 ambulance or my son-in-law took me, that is my daughter's husband.
8 Q. Under the 4th of May, 1995, it says that your wounds were dressed
9 on that day, it says evacuation; treatment, Klavocin, three times one a
10 day; Florin three times one a day; and check-up on the 5th of May at 1000
11 hours. Is that correct?
12 A. Yes, that is correct.
13 Q. The next date is 5th of May, 1995. Again, like on any other date
14 that I have just quoted to you, it says that your wounds were dressed,
15 that you received some recommendations, that you recommended to stay in
16 bed. Is that what it says in these reports?
17 A. Yes, it says "check-up, dressing," again another check-up on the
18 10th of May, dressing. I can't read this too well, so I can't be of
19 anymore assistance in that respect. And now it says here that I need to
20 go -- undergo check-ups, that my wounds need to be tended to, dressed. I
21 can now see it very well.
22 Q. We just saw a document in which it says that your disability
23 degree is 20 per cent.
24 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we again see the same
25 document on the screen. The number is 03562335, two pages before the last
1 one and the title of the document is "decision."
2 Q. Let us look at the middle part decision. Can we scroll up a
3 little to see the explanation.
4 It transpires from this that you were granted the status of a
5 civilian war invalid of group X with 20 per cent permanent disability,
6 giving you the right to a set disability benefit. Is that correct?
7 A. Yes, it is.
8 Q. In connection with this decision on disability, I would like to
9 ask you whether you personally know how the doctors qualified your injury,
10 the injury that you had sustained. Is that a light -- slight injury, a
11 severe injury? Do you have any knowledge of that?
12 A. I was taken where I was taken, and then I went to the medical
13 board in Zagreb, I don't know where exactly, and there were a few doctors
14 there making up a team. They looked at me, they checked my condition,
15 they said it is 20 per cent. What could I do? What could I say?
16 Q. I'm asking you this because there is a police report, a report of
17 the police of the town of Zagreb, in which the wounds that certain persons
18 had sustained are listed. And in your case it says that you sustained
19 slight bodily harm. Do you know anything of that?
20 A. No, I don't know anything of that but let me just tell you this.
21 If this is a slight injury, you can look at my X-ray and see that I have a
22 shrapnel between the lumbar 4 and lumbar 5 vertebra. And if you say this
23 is a slight injury, then be it so, but the doctors did not want to remove
24 it because they said that it would be more harm than benefit. It's still
25 there, the shrapnel.
1 Q. Mr. Mikulcic, I'm just checking what was written in the report of
2 the OTP material that was discussed with another witness. And we looked
3 at the complete report on the activities that took place on the 2nd and
4 the 3rd of May, and on page 23 of this report it says that this was in the
5 area of the Pleso airport, that there were no persons with serious
6 injuries, and that there was just one case of a slight injury, Mikulcic,
7 Ivan, who was born on 18 July, and your personal datas are listed, and it
8 says that you were extended medical help at the clinical centre of Rebro
9 in Zagreb. Your date of birth is in this report listed as 18 July 1957.
10 A. No, that's not when I was born. My name is Ivan Mikulcic. I was
11 born on the 18th of July, 1938.
12 Q. Thank you very much. All of this happened on the 2nd of May,
13 1995. After having been treated you returned home, and there you found
14 the damages which you explained. Was there any other thing happening
15 in -- at the time?
16 A. Yes, there was, on the 3rd of May, in Zagreb.
17 Q. Was the alarm sounded at the time?
18 A. I don't know. I didn't hear it.
19 Q. On the 2nd of May did the military or civilian authorities issue
20 any instructions to the population in terms of cautioning them about the
21 possible attacks?
22 A. The citizens were warned that if there was going to be another
23 attack, that they take additional care to go into shelters, but of course
24 one couldn't predict that.
25 Q. Thank you?
1 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have completed
2 my cross-examination. I have no further questions for this witness.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Milovancevic.
4 Ms. Richterova.
5 MS. RICHTEROVA: Thank you, Your Honour. There won't be any
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Ms. Richterova.
9 Mr. Mikulcic --
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mikulcic.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: I tried to say that. If I failed, please bear with
12 me. I try very hard to pronounce names correctly.
13 Questioned by the Court:
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Then, Mr. Mikulcic --
15 A. Your Honour, no problem there.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
17 You -- when you were being asked questions by the Prosecutor, you
18 lamented the fact that the doctors are not changing your position and yet
19 they keep saying you must come once every year for a check-up and you feel
20 that your position is going to change, it can't stay at 20 per cent
21 disability. Do you remember that?
22 A. Yes, I do. I remember that, absolutely. But if I may correct
23 something. I found it out only the other day that I was entitled to a
24 review of my status every two years.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. I understand that, Mr. -- What I want to
1 say, if it's any comfort to you, I just wanted to say to you that maybe
2 every time -- while they ask you to come for a check-up is to check
3 whether your status has changed or not and to adjust your disability
4 percentage accordingly. Don't you think that could be the reason now that
5 you are not on treatment any longer?
6 A. I believe you're right.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Am I right to say you're not on treatment any
9 A. No, no, I'm not. I'm -- the only thing that there is that I'm
10 taking are the painkillers, that's all.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Were there any other homes damaged in
12 your area on this day that you may have observed?
13 A. Of course there were. I said so in my statement, and I can tell
14 you precisely who these were: Zvonko Celindic, my neighbour; my
15 neighbour, Anto Zgrbic; my neighbour, Stjepan and Ibica Zlodi; my
16 neighbour, Ivan Franjo; Mirko Ankes is the other neighbour. All of these
17 homes were damaged on their roofs or elsewhere by these bomblets. The
18 entire casing of the cluster bomb which was emptied during the fall landed
19 on the house of Lojz Kovacic, and the entire casing of the bomb pierced
20 the roof and landed in his kitchen.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you able to give us an estimate of the number
22 of the number of houses that were damaged?
23 A. I know about these cases that I just listed. I know that
24 elsewhere at Pleso there were places where bomblets landed. At least ten
25 homes were damaged, but at the end of the day there was a commission from
1 the Velika Gorica police station which conducted an on-site investigation.
2 In fact, there were five commissions which went around my village to make
3 an accurate record of all the homes that were damaged, and they have the
4 records still.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you know if any other people were injured during
6 this operation?
7 A. I have no knowledge of anyone else in my village having been
8 injured but myself.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
10 Any questions arising from the questions, Ms. Richterova?
11 MS. RICHTEROVA: No, Your Honour. Thank you.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic?
13 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. Thank you.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Mikulcic. This brings us
15 to --
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: This brings us to the end of your testimony. Once
18 again, thank you very much for taking your time off to come and testify in
19 this matter. You may now -- you are now excused from further attending
20 court. You may stand down. Thank you very much. And I hope you get --
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: We hope you get better.
23 [The witness withdrew]
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: I guess this will be a convenient time? If we can
25 come back at quarter to 6.00.
1 MS. RICHTEROVA: Yes, Your Honour. Our witness will be ready
2 after the break, our next witness.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
4 Court adjourned. Come back at quarter to 2006.
5 --- Recess taken at 5.28 p.m.
6 --- On resuming at 5.47 p.m.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Black.
8 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour. The Prosecution would call
9 its next witness, Mr. Branko Lazarevic.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
11 May the witness come through.
12 [The witness entered court]
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the witness please make the declaration.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
15 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You may be seated, sir.
17 Yes, Mr. Black.
18 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 WITNESS: BRANKO LAZAREVIC
20 [Witness answered through interpreter]
21 Examination by Mr. Black:
22 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Lazarevic. Can you hear me okay? Can you
23 understand the translation through your headphones?
24 A. I can hear you and I understand the interpretation.
25 Q. If at any time you have any difficulty understanding one of my
1 questions, please just say so and I'll try to rephrase it, I'll try to put
2 it more clearly.
3 A. I understand. Very well.
4 Q. Thank you. Would you please state your name for the record.
5 A. My name is Branko Lazarevic.
6 Q. Where were you born, sir?
7 A. I was born in Bijeljina, in Bosnia and Herzegovina.
8 Q. On what date were you born?
9 A. I was born on 23 October 1949.
10 Q. And what is your ethnicity, sir?
11 A. I'm Serb.
12 Q. You mentioned that you were born in Bosnia. When did you move to
14 A. I moved to Croatia in 1970.
15 Q. Just so it's clear, where did you live in May of 1995?
16 A. In May 1995 I lived in Zagreb.
17 Q. Thank you. Let me now ask you just a few questions about your
18 career in the police. You joined the police force initially in 1971. Is
19 that correct?
20 A. That is correct.
21 Q. And you worked as an ordinary policeman until 1977, when you
22 joined the police academy in Zagreb. Is that right?
23 A. That is also correct.
24 Q. While at the police academy, did you receive any training in
25 on-site investigation procedures?
1 A. Yes. This was a subject called investigations. We worked on that
2 for a few months, maybe even whole semester.
3 Q. When did you complete your studies at the police academy?
4 A. I completed my studies in 1987 [as interpreted].
5 Q. And where did you go then?
6 A. For a few months I worked at the police station in Crnomerec and
7 Susegrad, and from there I had originally been sent to the academy.
8 Q. And where were you first transferred to the municipal SUP or
9 police headquarters in Zagreb?
10 A. I was transferred to the municipal SUP of Zagreb on the 1st of
11 September, 1980. 1980, I believe.
12 Q. What positions did you hold during your career at the municipal
13 SUP of Zagreb?
14 A. Initially I worked in the department for prevention of general
15 crime, and there I was an operative in charge of investigations.
16 Q. And after that did you hold any other positions, besides being an
17 operative in charge of -- perhaps I don't understand. When you say you
18 were an operative in charge of investigations, could you -- could you
19 explain that a little bit.
20 A. Well, I would say that this was an initial stage. When you first
21 join that department for on-site investigations, you become an inspector
22 for on-site investigations. And for a few years this is what you do.
23 This is the lowest level, and all operatives who become engaged in on-site
24 investigations have to start from that level.
25 Q. What positions did you have after that starting level?
1 A. A few years later, having spent some time at that initial level, I
2 became the head of the shift, or shift commander, and I was the shift
3 commander for a few years. I had five or six operatives under me. They
4 worked in my shift. I stayed in that position until 1990.
5 Q. And what happened in 1990?
6 A. Then I was promoted. I became the head of department for on-site
7 investigations. I was in charge of four shifts in the department, and I
8 had between 30 and 40 operatives reporting to me.
9 Q. What kind of cases did your department work on?
10 A. The on-site investigation department that I was in charge of dealt
11 with the so-called general crimes, which means that we worked on various
12 cases and we performed on-site investigations for everything but traffic
13 accidents. I'm talking about murders, arson, rapes, railway accidents,
14 air traffic accidents, everything that falls under the penal code, save
15 for the road accidents.
16 Q. Thank you. I just wanted to clear one thing up. You said you
17 became the head of department for on-site investigations. Was there
18 anyone senior to you in the department or were you the -- over all in
19 charge of the department?
20 A. In that department I had a chief above me. I was in charge of
21 on-site investigations. There was nobody superior to me in that respect,
22 but I reported to the chief. To make things simple, my department had
23 five sections, and one of the sections was an on-site investigation
24 section and I was the head of that section. And the chief of the
25 department was the person that I reported to. I was subordinated to the
1 chief of department.
2 Q. Thank you. And one other clarification. I think it may have just
3 been a mistake in the transcript. What year did you complete your studies
4 at the police academy?
5 A. I was at the academy from 1977 to 1979, and I took my last exam in
6 1979 and I believe I graduated in 1980, in the month of April of that
8 Q. Thank you very much. Now I'd like to turn your attention to the
9 2nd of May, 1995. First of all, do you remember what the weather was like
10 on that day, what kind of a day it was?
11 A. As far as I can remember, it -- the day was nice, warm, sunny, no
12 rain or anything, no wind, no precipitation whatsoever.
13 Q. And where were you on that morning?
14 A. On that morning I was in my office. My working hours were between
15 7.00 in the morning and 4.00 in the afternoon, and on the 2nd of May,
16 1995, in the morning, I was in my office. My office was in Zagreb in
17 Djordjiceva Street number 4.
18 Q. Was there any advanced warning or indication that Zagreb might be
19 attacked that day?
20 A. As far as I know, there was nothing. As far as I know.
21 Q. Tell us what in fact happened.
22 A. Well, as I've already told you, on that day I was in my office in
23 Djordjiceva, number 4. At one point in time I heard a noise, it -- an
24 explosion or explosions. I went down to the street and continued towards
25 Zrinjevac. I had heard alarms. I could see fire brigades. People were
1 running, in a state of panic. The distance was not that big. I looked
2 towards the railway station, to the main railway station, towards
3 Strossmayer square and I could see that in the vicinity of the centre
4 police station, in Strossmayer square a few cars were aflame, a few fire
5 brigade vehicles were on their way in order to extinguish the fire. There
6 were a few wounded people. The emergency services are also in Djordjiceva
7 Street at number 26, and it did not take a long time for their ambulances,
8 maybe less than five minutes, to get to the site. And in general terms,
9 there was a state of panic, a state of confusion, as things are when five
10 or six cars are ablaze, when there are wounded on the street.
11 Q. Do you remember approximately what time it was on the morning of
12 May 2nd that this happened?
13 A. This happened before noon. I believe that it was sometime after
14 10.00 in the morning. After 10.00, maybe 10.30.
15 Q. I'd like to show you a video. This is trial exhibit 383, and to
16 watch it you'll have to use the Sanction, so if we could please switch to
17 the Sanction.
18 MR. BLACK: And then the question from me, as always, Your Honour,
19 is, which button do we push?
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: I was going to ask you that question, what is the
21 Sanction in the first place?
22 MR. BLACK: Sanction is a system that we use to show videos, Your
23 Honour. That's all we use it for. And I believe --
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: The one marked "video"?
25 MR. BLACK: If we can broadcast the Sanction here then we'll be
1 able to tell. To broadcast that.
2 [Prosecution counsel confer].
3 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, you can see it on the regular e-court
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
6 MR. BLACK: And we'll play the first clip -- I have three short
7 clips that I'd like to show him right now. Could we play the first one,
9 [Videotape played]
10 MR. BLACK:
11 Q. Let me just ask a quick question about that first clip.
12 Mr. Lazarevic, are you able to tell us where this video is filmed?
13 A. Yes. The video was filmed in Zagreb, in Strossmayer square, and
14 we have just seen what I described. A few cars were on fire, maybe five
15 or six vehicles that were parked closer to the police station. Maybe some
16 10 or 15 metres towards Boskoviceva Street. And we also saw the arrival
17 of the fire brigade vehicles and the exercise to extinguish the fire of
18 the cars that were ablaze when the bomb exploded.
19 Q. Thank you. Now I'm going to show you two more clips that are
20 shorter than that last one.
21 [Videotape played]
22 MR. BLACK:
23 Q. We just paused it and the time code is minute 6:07.2.
24 Mr. Lazarevic, what do we see on our screen right now?
25 A. On the screen we can see a bomb, the so-called KB-1, which did not
1 explode. And the photo was taken on the scene of the event.
2 MR. BLACK: And, Your Honour, just for the record this clip as
3 well as the following, all three are part of trial exhibit 383.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
5 [Videotape played]
6 MR. BLACK: And the third clip from the same exhibit.
7 [Videotape played].
8 MR. BLACK: Actually, could we start the clip again? My
9 apologies. Start the clip again.
10 [Prosecution counsel confer]
11 [Videotape played]
12 MR. BLACK:
13 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, what do we see on the screen right now?
14 A. On the screen we can see a dead body. This is Mrs. Ana Mutevelic,
15 who was killed during this incident. The place is the crossroads of
16 Vlaska Street and Draskoviceva Street. The body is covered and marked by
17 number 1 that we see to the left of her head. According to the
18 information that we collected during our investigation, we learned that
19 the lady had sustained injuries while she was riding on a tram. One of
20 the shells had hit the tram that she was in. The lady sustained injuries,
21 and she succumbed to her injuries there and then. She was taken off the
22 tram and she was laid on the pavement as we see here.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 MR. BLACK: For the record, the time code is 7 minutes and 41.3
25 seconds. If we could continue with the video.
1 [Videotape played]
2 MR. BLACK: This is 8 minutes 00.8 seconds on the video.
3 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, what do we see on the screen now?
4 A. On the screen we can see a dead body. This is Damir Dracic, who
5 also was killed during the shelling, during the rocket attack that is.
6 According to the information that we collected, the gentleman was driving
7 his car at the time a shell fragment or several of them hit the vehicle,
8 pierced the metal, and the glass. The fragments hit the gentleman and
9 injured him. And the gentleman died in the car. The scene is Vlaska
10 Street in front of number 41.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 MR. BLACK: Could we continue with the clip, please?
13 [Videotape played]
14 MR. BLACK: Thank you. I'm done with trial exhibit 383.
15 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, perhaps I've gotten a little ahead of myself, but
16 let me ask you this: After you heard the explosions and you described how
17 you went down and what you saw there, what did you then tell your
18 operatives in the on-site investigation section to do?
19 A. As the head of the on-site investigation section, it was clear to
20 me what had happened and what we had on our hands. I knew that there had
21 to be an on-site investigation. I took immediate measures without wasting
22 a moment I undertook measures in order to gather all the operatives that
23 were available to me, and I deployed them with certain tasks. I sent them
24 out and ordered them to start collecting data. The information started
25 pouring in, and it was with the lapse of time, maybe five, ten, or 15
1 minutes later, I received information and I realised that not only what I
2 saw had happened when I left my office, I realised that this was not
3 everything that happened, that there were some other locations in town
4 that had been hit by bombs. Having received that information, I realised
5 that I had quite a big task on my hands and that it should be done very
6 fast and very well. That's why I tried to gather as many operatives as
7 possible, especially the most seasoned ones. I did that. I gave them
8 their tasks, and we embarked in an on-site investigation immediately.
9 When the cars that had burnt down were removed, when the dead
10 bodies were removed from the streets - and this is also something that had
11 to be done -- actually it was the first thing that we were supposed to do
12 in order to proceed with our tasks.
13 Q. Were you able to personally visit any of the other sites, besides
14 the one that you've already described to us?
15 A. Yes. I went to those sites that were closest to me, that were
16 down-town in the vicinity of my office. As I said, as the information was
17 coming in I realised that the bombs had hit the main building of the
18 police force, that's to say the main administration building near the
19 Croatian cultural association, which is quite close to the street where we
20 saw the cars on fire, perhaps some 50 metres away from the street that we
21 saw. That's the Matica Hrvatska Street. And down that street, which is
22 quite a short one, another street, Petrinska Street, can be found where
23 the police building, the administration building, had been hit, it is at
24 Petrinska 30. I've just mentioned the police premises, but a number of
25 other buildings in the Petrinska Street were hit, as were many cars that
1 were parked on both sides of the street. Quite a number of shops,
2 business premises were damaged, the bombs were landing all the way down to
3 Boskoviceva Street, which covers a distance of perhaps 400 metres from the
4 police administration building.
5 Q. Thank you. And I'll ask you -- be asking you some more specific
6 questions about these places during the course of your testimony. Did you
7 go to any of the other sites, for instance Pleso or any of the other
8 places, personally?
9 A. I myself took part in conducting on-site investigations in order
10 to relieve the burden on my colleagues. On that day we learnt that the
11 same type of bombs had also landed on the village of Pleso where the
12 Zagreb airport was situated. The village of Pleso is basically a part of
13 the town of Velika Gorica, part of its environs. And I went over there
14 during the day and established that damage was inflicted on the homes
15 there, minor damage was also found at the airport. There was one bomb
16 that landed in front of a shop, commercial premises located at the airport
17 themself -- itself.
18 Q. Thank you. At this point I'd like to show you a document. The
19 ERN is 03655451 to 5598.
20 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, I would propose, if it meets Your
21 Honour's approval, to provide hard copies of this report and there's one
22 other report. And the reason is they're quite extensive and he'll be
23 talking about it for a while and we'll have to look at other documents.
24 As Your Honours know, with e-court it's difficult to bounce between
25 documents. I'm certainly aware of Your Honour's preference that we use
1 e-court, as set forth in the guideline but I ask for an exception in these
2 circumstances --
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Black, you may proceed.
4 MR. BLACK: With the assistance of the usher, here are four
5 copies in English for the court, a copy for the witness, as well as one
6 for the Defence or for the accused if they don't have one. And I would
7 also mention that I have extra copies and I neglected to give them to the
8 interpreters ahead of time, but we'll do that as soon as the usher has a
9 chance so they can follow along. Thanks very much.
10 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, do you recognise this document that's been handed
11 to you?
12 A. Yes, I do. This is a photocopy of the record of an on-site
13 investigation I myself drafted after the on-site investigation was
15 Q. In fact, does it bear your signature on the last page?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, how -- how did you go about compiling this -- this
19 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Apologies, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes.
21 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Martic doesn't have the
22 report before him. Could the -- my learned friend spare a copy for him?
23 MR. BLACK: Certainly.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Thank you.
25 MR. BLACK:
1 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, you were just about to explain how you compiled the
2 information which you've included -- which you included in this report.
3 Please go ahead.
4 A. Yes. I've touched upon the issue already. I myself went to the
5 scene of the incident. Since the site where the bombs landed, including
6 the sites where buildings and vehicles were damaged as well as the sites
7 where there were injured people, were quite numerous, I had to give
8 specific assignments to my operatives and send them to various streets.
9 They immediately proceeded to conduct their on-site investigations, and as
10 I said I myself conducted some, too. Each of my colleagues who conducted
11 on-site investigations on given locations produced their respective
12 reports with their findings and photographic material. Therefore, as a
13 result we had written material covering each and one of these on-site
14 investigations that I took possession of and compiled a general report
15 that covered all the individual reports. And I signed it. Therefore, it
16 is the product of my work and of the work of my colleagues from the
17 on-site investigations section. Their reports, which were the basis for
18 my main record of on-site investigations, are attached to my report and
19 can be found in the operative files of my section.
20 Q. And just so it's clear, the underlying reports by your colleagues,
21 those aren't attached to the document that you have in front of you now,
22 but they're attached back in -- in the files back in Zagreb. Is that
24 A. Yes, that's right, precisely. Had I conducted the on-site
25 investigation on my own, single-handedly, it would have taken me ten to 15
1 days to complete the investigations, perhaps even more.
2 Q. In fact, how long did it take you to compile the document which
3 you have in front of you?
4 A. It's hard for me to reconstruct how long it took me to write the
5 document we have before us here, but I do know that I was working on the
6 case the entire days on the 2nd and 3rd of May, 1995. I processed the
7 information, attached the medical documentation to it, and then I wrote
8 the report. The entire process took 40 days.
9 Let me clarify. The component part of the report consists of
10 photographic documentation, sketches, diagrams, observations by forensic
11 examiners, and it took me as many days to compile all these elements which
12 form the component part of the report.
13 Q. I think it's clear, thank you. In fact, I'd like to go -- this
14 report contains a lot of detail. I'd like to go through it fairly
15 quickly. And consequently, I'm just going to ask you a number of
16 questions but not questions about every detailed aspect about the report.
17 My first question is: What locations are discussed in this document that
18 you have in front of you?
19 A. The document before us covers the following locations:
20 Strossmayer's square; Matica Hrvatska Street, Petrinska Street;
21 Boskoviceva Street; Draskoviceva Street; Vlaska Street; the high school at
22 Krizeviceva [phoen] Street; and the location in the Velika Gorica area,
23 that's to say Pleso.
24 Q. Thank you. And how would you describe all those locations that
25 you've just mentioned? Are they -- are they central? Are they isolated?
1 Are they ordinarily crowded, not crowded? Can you just give us a feel for
2 those locations, please?
3 A. Almost all these locations, including Pleso, were locations which
4 were full of people at the time of these incidents. There were many
5 pedestrians and cars on the move, including public transportation, that's
6 to say trams. At the time in town of some 1 million inhabitants and given
7 the time of the day, there were quite a few people on the streets.
8 Q. As far as you know, are there any military buildings or facilities
9 at these various locations you've just mentioned?
10 A. As far as I know, there isn't a single military feature in the
11 immediate vicinity of the locations I just mentioned.
12 Q. I've asked you now about the locations discussed in the document.
13 What kinds of damage -- different kinds of damage or what kind of things
14 were damaged, as discussed in your report?
15 A. The report discusses the damage inflicted on numerous cars,
16 buildings, even on the roof-tops of these buildings, shops. There were
17 pock-marks on paved areas, typical of those normally inflicted by bombs.
18 Q. Thank you. I think that's a sufficient overview. Let me ask you
19 about some specific parts of the report. If you could turn to page 50 in
20 the original, the B/C/S version. It's page 46 in English. Page 50 in the
21 document that -- in the hard copy in front of you, sir.
22 A. I think I've located it.
23 Q. And you'll see that it's also on the computer screen in front of
24 you if you just want to double-check. The ERN number there is 03655451.
25 What is discussed at this page of your report, please?
1 MR. BLACK: If we could scroll down a bit more. That's fine.
2 Thank you.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On page 50 of this on-site report,
4 there is the description of the body of Ana Mutevelic, who was injured
5 while riding on a tram, as I said a moment ago. She was then taken off
6 the tram and laid down on the sidewalk. She had visible injuries on her
7 body, all over her body. In medical terms, she had a number of explosive
8 wounds, and the largest of them was on her head near her ear.
9 MR. BLACK:
10 Q. Thank you. Let me ask you to look at the next page, page 51.
11 MR. BLACK: It's the same page in the English, Your Honours, just
12 a little further down on page 46.
13 Q. What is discussed here, Mr. Lazarevic?
14 A. On this page there's the description of the dead body of Damir
15 Dracic, who was lying next to his car, on the pavement. There was a
16 multitude of explosive wounds all over his body which resulted in his
17 death, which led to his death.
18 Q. Thank you?
19 MR. BLACK: If we could please turn to the next page, 52, in the
20 original, it's page 47 in the English.
21 Q. What's discussed at the top of page 52, sir?
22 A. On this page we can see the description of the dead body of
23 Stjepan Krhen. He died in the courtyard at Vlaska number 41. In front of
24 the company doorman's booth. He also had sustained several injuries on
25 his body, on his chest, and on his legs. And he also succumbed to these
1 wounds immediately.
2 Q. Thank you. And if you look at the bottom of that same page and
3 tell me what's mentioned there, please.
4 A. This is the description of Mrs. Ivanka Kovac at the moment of
5 shelling or rocket attack, she sustained wounds. When the ambulance
6 arrived, she still showed some signs of life and that's why she was
7 transported to the trauma clinic in Draskoviceva Street. This hospital is
8 some 700 metres away from the place where she was wound; in other words,
9 it didn't take long for her to be transported to the hospital. Still, she
10 succumbed to her wounds maybe ten minutes after the arrival at the
12 Q. Thank you. We'll return to Mrs. Kovac a little bit later. Let me
13 ask you now to look at page 70 of the document.
14 MR. BLACK: It's page 63 in English, Your Honours.
15 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, what is discussed beginning at this page and on the
16 following pages, just generally?
17 A. Here I described the persons who had been wounded. First there is
18 their names as well as the indication of the hospital to which those
19 people were transported after having been found. Furthermore, this page
20 contains information on the location of their wounds; in other words,
21 where the wounds were on their body. And also this page contains the
22 medical qualification of every person's wounds.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 MR. BLACK: Your Honours, I just noticed that this document does
25 contain some addresses, so I would ask that perhaps the public video feed
1 that goes out could not show the document. And then what I'll do is
2 arrange to have a redacted copy put into evidence at a later date. I'm
3 sorry that I didn't do that in advance. I don't think we need to have any
4 orders, I just think that the video booth can assist me in not publicly
5 broadcast that part; they can just use the video of the witness instead of
6 showing that.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: I notice that there are some pages that are blocked
8 out. Are those not the --
9 MR. BLACK: You're exactly right, Your Honour. I had thought that
10 we had redacted all the necessary information, but I think I'm seeing that
11 maybe there's some more that should be redacted. Just -- I don't think
12 it's --
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Very well then.
14 MR. BLACK: Just as a courtesy to those people then, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Very well then.
16 MR. BLACK: Thank you very much.
17 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, the report distinguishes between serious bodily
18 injury and minor bodily injury. Could you just explain the difference for
19 us, please.
20 A. I'll try and explain the difference for you, although I'm an
21 expert in crime prevention I'm not a physician. A doctor would be better
22 suited to provide you with that explanation; however, based on my long
23 practice and experience in on-site investigations where I have encountered
24 a number of such cases, I can tell you that in our legislation there is
25 a -- a distinction between a minor injury and a serious injury. To put it
1 simply, minor injuries are those injuries which cause a minor impairment.
2 We're talking about haematomas, minor injuries that do not hurt any vital
3 organs, when there are no fractures. In any case, when the person is
4 slightly wounded and when the consequences are not great.
5 Heavy or serious injuries would be brain injuries, almost all and
6 every fracture, save for the nose fracture without any shifts. We're
7 talking about the fracture of all bones, save for the bone in the nose.
8 Also we're talking about organ injuries, injuries to the blood vessels,
9 and I believe that I have covered everything.
10 Q. Thank you. And who made the determination of whether an injury
11 was serious or minor that we see in your report?
12 A. Every person that is mentioned in the record on on-site
13 investigation was examined by a doctor and the qualification of their
14 injury was provided by a doctor. I waited for all the medical reports to
15 arrive at the police station. I'm talking about the medical reports on
16 every of those injured persons that were examined. Every doctor that sees
17 a wounded person is duty-bound to compile a report on the exam that
18 contains the basic data on the identity of the wounded person, the time
19 and place of injury, the way injuries were sustained; furthermore, the
20 description of the injury or injuries; furthermore, the diagnosis, and the
21 diagnosis has to be provided in the Latin language and also in Croatian.
22 And finally, every doctor is duty-bound to specify the medical
23 qualification of the injury, and the medical qualification is what I just
24 tried to explain to you. I tried to explain the distinction between a
25 minor injury and a serious injury.
1 I looked at all of those medical reports and I included into my
2 record all those reports. I actually copied all those medical reports. I
3 included a location of the wound and the medical qualification of every
4 wound. Furthermore, every medical report was enclosed with my on-site
5 investigation report, so you can see for yourself that my record is a true
6 copy of the reports that I had been provided with.
7 Q. Thank you very much. Now I'll ask you to look again at a specific
8 part of the report. If you could look at number 75 on this list of
9 injured. You'll find it on page 81?
10 MR. BLACK: Your Honours, it's page 71 of the English.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
12 MR. BLACK:
13 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, who is named here at number 75 on this list?
14 A. Under 75 you can see the name of Ivan Brodar. He was born in
15 1918. During this incident he suffered multiple trauma of the head,
16 chest, and lower extremities. He was transported to the trauma clinic,
17 but he succumbed to his wounds on the following day.
18 Q. And so does --
19 A. I apologise.
20 Q. No, please continue.
21 A. During the rocket attack I believe that he was 77 years old.
22 Q. Thank you. And what's captured here in this report reflects his
23 condition on -- as of the 2nd of May, 1995. Do I understand you
25 A. Yes. At the moment when the record was compiled and the date it
1 bears is the date when the incident happened, he was still alive. He
2 succumbed to his wounds later on. There are medical documents to prove
3 that. There's also a pathology report. He died. He succumbed to his
4 wounds and there are autopsy reports to that effect.
5 Q. Thank you. We'll return to Ivan Brodar in just a moment. Those
6 are all my questions -- my specific questions, however, about this
8 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, I'd ask that it be admitted into evidence
9 and that it receive an exhibit number, please.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: The report is admitted into evidence. And may it
11 please be given an exhibit number.
12 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 799, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
14 MR. BLACK: Thank you very much, Your Honour.
15 I'd like to show the witness another document. This is 65 ter
16 number 2251, if we could see that on the e-court, please.
17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
18 MR. BLACK: Thank you.
19 Q. What do we see on the screen in front of us, Mr. Lazarevic?
20 A. On the screen we can see autopsy report. This is for
21 Mrs. Ivanka Kovac, and this was performed at the Institute for Forensic
22 Medicine and Crime, Salata number 11. This is a description of the wounds
23 that the doctor could establish. There's also the diagnosis of those
24 wounds. And finally at the end of the document is the cause of death.
25 Q. And what cause of death does it mention?
1 A. I can see only the first page. I don't see anything further. In
2 any case, the cause of death, as far as I can remember, were multiple
3 injuries to the head, chest, and extremities.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 MR. BLACK: Is it possible to turn to the next page, please? And
6 I think if we scroll down to the bottom of that page.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now we have it. It
8 says: "Explosive wounds of the head, of the body, and the extremities."
9 This is the cause of death. The doctor signed this, Dr. Stjepan Gusic is
10 the forensic expert, and on the left-hand side you see the signature of
11 Professor Dusan Zecevic, who is the head of the institute for forensic
12 medicine, and they are both forensic experts in pathology.
13 MR. BLACK:
14 Q. Thank you very much.
15 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, could this document be admitted into
16 evidence and be given an exhibit number?
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence and may it
18 please be given an exhibit number.
19 THE REGISTRAR: The document will be 800.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
21 MR. BLACK: One more document for today. If we could see document
22 2258 on the screen, please. And if we could turn to the next page in
23 fact, please.
24 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, what is this document that we're looking at now?
25 A. Here we have another autopsy report by doctor's of the school of
1 medicine. His name is Professor Skavic, and it was compiled after the
2 autopsy of Mr. Ivan Brodar, who had been injured in Draskoviceva Street,
3 and he died on the following day at the trauma clinic.
4 Q. Thank you?
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Was it the following day or the 3rd of June?
6 MR. BLACK:
7 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, did you hear His Honour's question?
8 A. I believe I did, and I reply that Mr. Brodar died one day later
9 after having been brought to the hospital. He died on the 3rd of June,
11 Q. We just have a little confusion. He was injured on the 2nd of
12 May, 1995. So would -- do you see that confusion?
13 A. You're asking me?
14 Q. Yes. Can you confirm, based on this document, when -- what date
15 he in fact died?
16 A. It says here that he died on the 3rd of June. I can't be a
17 hundred per cent sure, but I think he died on the 3rd of May.
18 Q. In any event, he did -- did he ever recover from the injuries he
19 suffered on the 2nd of May, 1995?
20 A. No, no. No, the gentleman died, and the cause of death were the
21 injuries that he suffered as a result of the bomb explosion.
22 MR. BLACK: If we could perhaps turn to the next page in the
23 document, please.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: What page?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can you scroll down a little? I
1 don't see the bottom of the page.
2 MR. BLACK:
3 Q. Yes. And what does it say is the cause of his death?
4 A. The cause of death are injuries. These are all in Latin. I
5 believe that there should be the diagnosis in Croatian as well. There
6 should be a diagnosis in Croatian. Maybe this is not the right place.
7 Q. Perhaps if we continue to the next page, and I apologise for not
8 having identified this page in advance.
9 Does that clarify things, Mr. Lazarevic?
10 A. This is an autopsy report. This is a medical description, but I
11 believe, as a matter of fact, that there's no doubt --
12 Q. I'm sorry. If we just scroll down to the bottom of the page,
13 please, the last sentence there. Yeah, that's fine.
14 A. "The pneumonia that developed during the course of treatment after
15 the patient sustained explosive injuries is the cause of violent death
16 which is closely connected and is directly connected with the wounds," and
17 this is the finding by the two professors of forensic medicine.
18 Q. Thank you very much.
19 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, could this be admitted, and then we can
20 end for today.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence, may it
22 please be given an exhibit number.
23 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 801, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
25 MR. BLACK: My apologies for going a few minutes over. I'm happy
1 to take the adjournment for the day.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
3 Court will adjourn now. We'll start tomorrow at quarter past 2.00
4 in the afternoon.
5 Court adjourned.
6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.04 p.m.,
7 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 15th day of
8 June, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.