Page 5725
1 Friday, 16 June 2006
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.40 p.m.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Whiting.
6 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour. Before we call our next
7 witness, there are just two small procedural matters to resolve with
8 respect to the witness, and it requires us to go into private session,
9 please.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
11 [Private session]
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18 [Open session]
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, we are in open session now.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
21 Yes, Mr. Whiting.
22 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Q. Witness, in September of 1991, could you tell us approximately how
24 many people lived in Nadin.
25 A. Around 300.
Page 5731
1 Q. Can you say approximately how many houses there were in Nadin?
2 A. About 150 or maybe 120.
3 Q. Was Nadin a Croatian village, a Serbian village, or was it mixed?
4 A. There were two Serb houses; the rest were Croats.
5 Q. How far is Nadin from Skabrnja?
6 A. Some three kilometres.
7 Q. In September of 1991, did you have running water and electricity
8 in Nadin, was it working?
9 A. No, no.
10 Q. Why not? What had happened?
11 A. We were switched off in August. From Benkovac they switched off
12 our electricity and we did not have it.
13 Q. Who's "they"? Who switched it off, if you know?
14 A. The Serbs there, the Orthodox Serbs, the local Serbs.
15 Q. In September of 1991, can you tell us to your knowledge
16 approximately how many weapons existed in Nadin?
17 A. As far as I know, only hunting rifles. There were maybe five or
18 six hunters in the village.
19 Q. Were there any soldiers or armed units or fighters located in
20 Nadin?
21 A. No.
22 Q. To your knowledge in September of 1991, did the village of Nadin
23 pose any threat to any Serbs living in areas around Nadin, for example in
24 Benkovac or other areas?
25 A. No.
Page 5732
1 Q. On the 18th of September, 1991, what happened in Nadin?
2 A. Shells were falling, and then women and children were taken out
3 and driven to the village of Polaca.
4 Q. Was there any warning before the shells started falling?
5 A. No, none.
6 Q. Could you tell what direction the shells came from?
7 A. As far as I know, either from Biljani or Lisan. Those were
8 neighbouring villages.
9 Q. Were those villages under Serb control or Croat control or do you
10 not know?
11 A. Under Serb control.
12 Q. You said that when the shells started falling that the women and
13 children were taken out. Who took them out?
14 A. People. Everybody looked after their own and took them away to
15 Zadar.
16 Q. Why did they take them away?
17 A. They were afraid. Other villages had already fallen, and the
18 children and women there had been killed.
19 Q. Do you remember what other villages had already fallen?
20 A. Lisani, some villages around Benkovac, Polaca, Krusevo, a number
21 of the villages in Bukovica around Benkovac.
22 Q. After the shelling started on the 18th of September, 1991, was
23 there any more shelling in September or October?
24 A. On the 2nd of October there was another round of shelling. They
25 had already entered Nadin, and two lads got killed. I forgot to say that.
Page 5733
1 MR. WHITING: Could we go into private session, please, Your
2 Honour?
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session?
4 [Private session]
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20 [Open session]
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, we are in open session now.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
23 MR. WHITING:
24 Q. Witness, these are just going to be general questions, so please
25 do not mention your name or the names of other people.
Page 5735
1 On the 18th of November, 1991, in the morning did something happen
2 in Nadin?
3 A. Shells started falling around 7.00.
4 Q. Can you tell me approximately how many people remained in the
5 village at that time -- were in the village at that time on the 18th of
6 November. You told us before that there were about 300 people who lived
7 there. How many people remained at that time?
8 A. Only males and a few women who prepared food for them -- actually,
9 the women and the children were the first to leave, and I don't know how
10 many people remained in total.
11 Q. On that day, on the 18th of November, 1991, were there any
12 Croatian soldiers or military units or military forces of any kind in
13 Nadin?
14 A. No.
15 Q. You told us before that in September of 1991 there were about --
16 that there were only hunting weapons and that there were about five
17 hunters in Nadin. In November of 1991, was there any change or was it the
18 same? Were there any other weapons at that time or was it the same as
19 before?
20 A. The same. The situation was the same. Nothing changed.
21 Q. On that day, on the 18th of November, 1991, did the villagers of
22 Nadin pose a threat to Serbs anywhere?
23 A. No.
24 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, could we move into private session,
25 please?
Page 5736
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
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10 [Open session]
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, we are in open session now.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
13 Yes, Mr. Whiting.
14 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Q. Witness, when you returned to Nadin after Operation Storm, can you
16 tell the Trial Chamber what you saw.
17 A. Well, I saw a terrible sight. All the houses had been burnt, the
18 trees, the forest, everything was destroyed.
19 Q. Could you tell if anything had been taken?
20 A. Well, yes, you could see that some things had been taken, the
21 tractor, the characters, some newer furniture from the house, the
22 appliances. Everything that was new was taken away, if -- the older
23 things were left.
24 Q. Witness, was there a church in Nadin?
25 A. Yes.
Page 5748
1 Q. What was the condition of the church when you returned after
2 Operation Storm?
3 A. The church had also been destroyed and burnt down.
4 Q. What kind of a church was it?
5 A. How do you mean what kind?
6 Q. Was it a Catholic church or an Orthodox church?
7 A. Yes, yes, a Catholic church.
8 Q. Witness, thank you. I have no further questions.
9 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, those are all my questions.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
11 Would that then be a convenient time?
12 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes.
14 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] The Defence has no questions
15 for this witness, and in -- I would like the Trial Chamber to bear that in
16 mind in view of the connections.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much for mentioning that,
18 Mr. Milovancevic.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Witness, this brings us to the end of your
21 testimony. We thank you very much for coming to testify, and I just want
22 to say on behalf of the Tribunal that we really appreciate you -- the
23 effort you've put in to coming to testify, notwithstanding -- are we in --
24 we are in public session?
25 Can we move into private session?
Page 5749
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Page 5750
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5 [Open session]
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, we are now in open session.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
8 Then I can say I don't know why Mr. Whiting always takes the word
9 out of my mouth. Be that as it may, I thank you very much. I think it is
10 also for the Chamber to endorse what Mr. Whiting has said and express its
11 gratitude and appreciation to the technicians and the people in the field
12 for mounting up the videolink at such a short notice. And we understand
13 we have put them into some inconvenience, and we hope it will not recur,
14 but we appreciate the stellar job that you did. Thank you so much.
15 I wanted us to finish the business for the day, and then we can
16 adjourn for good for the weekend.
17 Yes, Mr. Milovancevic.
18 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, bearing in mind
19 what you just said, I wanted to make a request of the Trial Chamber.
20 May we go back into private session for a moment, please?
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: May we please move into private session.
22 [Private session]
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25 [Open session]
Page 5753
1 Do we still have sufficient recording space on our tapes now that
2 it looks like -- I'm not quite sure whether we can stay longer. Or should
3 we take a short break, even if it's a 15-minute one, and come back at
4 4.00?
5 I see a -- there's a nod and -- there's a nod in agreement this
6 side and there's a disagreement this side, if I look at the booths. I'm
7 not sure who to go with.
8 Mr. Milovancevic, maybe you must be the arbiter here. If we gave
9 you a 15-minute break and then come back just to finalise this, would that
10 be okay? I think we'll do that.
11 Let's come back at 4.00.
12 --- Recess taken at 3.43 p.m.
13 --- On resuming at 4.01 p.m.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Whiting, I see you are on your feet.
15 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I don't know if you wanted me to
16 address the points with regard to the Defence filing.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah, you may do so.
18 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Just a few points to make, Your Honour. The first is a procedural
20 point, which I don't -- I won't insist on but I will raise, which is that
21 in our view -- in our submission, we should have been provided with the
22 full filing, not a redacted filing. There is a paragraph which was filed
23 ex parte, paragraph 14, which appears to be -- concern remuneration to the
24 Defence. I understand that normally that is an issue which is between the
25 Defence and the Registry and the Trial Chamber, and it's not something
Page 5754
1 that we have any interest in and any concern about. However, when that
2 issue starts to have an impact on the trial schedule and is raised in a
3 submission to the Trial Chamber to change the trial schedule that has been
4 set, then I think the matter changes, and it becomes something that we do
5 have an interest in and should be included in. So I do think that that is
6 something that we should have been provided. But as I said, it's not
7 something that I'm going to press any further than that, just to raise
8 that point.
9 The second point, Your Honour, is that we are prepared to stay
10 with the schedule that has been ordered by the Trial Chamber in its
11 Scheduling Order, and we do think that it is important to keep the
12 schedule on -- keep the trial on track and to complete the trial as
13 expeditiously as possible for the sake of all the parties, for the
14 accused, and for everybody.
15 I'm not going to address the points raised by the Defence. I will
16 defer to the Trial Chamber on those points to consider and weigh those.
17 We would be concerned about any change in the schedule that would
18 reduce the time that the Prosecution has between the time that we get the
19 list of witnesses from the Defence and the time the first Defence witness
20 is called. As the schedule now stands, that is a period of 12 days. We
21 would be very concerned and would even oppose any change in the schedule
22 which further reduces that time of 12 days. For -- to us, that's the
23 minimum amount of time. We're prepared to do it in 12 days, but we would
24 not want it to be less than 12 days.
25 So when we look at the various options, it seems to us that there
Page 5755
1 are, in a way, two different approaches. One is to stick with the
2 schedule as we have it now; the second approach would essentially to be --
3 would essentially be to give up the aspiration to have the Defence case --
4 Defence witnesses start before the break and to simply accomplish all the
5 other business between now and the break, which is the 98 bis submission,
6 the decision on the 98 bis, and the Defence filings.
7 It seems to us that if the Trial Chamber wants to have the Defence
8 witnesses start on the 10th of July of this year, then we have to stick to
9 the schedule that has been proposed by the Court. There's no other way
10 really to adjust it without impinging on the Trial Chamber's time to
11 consider the 98 bis arguments and the Prosecution's time to prepare for
12 the Defence case.
13 So option one is -- we think is to stay with the schedule as it
14 stands now; option two is to essentially plan for the Defence witnesses to
15 start after the break and then to schedule back, as it were, from that
16 date and to accomplish the 98 bis submissions, the 98 bis decision, and
17 the filing of the 65 ter (G) documents, the Defence witness list and
18 exhibit list, all before the break occurs in July.
19 The only final matter I would raise is that if possible -- if it's
20 possible, current -- under the current schedule, the date of the 23rd --
21 Friday, the 23rd of June, a week from today, is now free. If at all
22 possible, I don't know if the Trial Chamber is planning on changing the
23 dates at all, but if that could remain free, I would be most grateful.
24 I've now scheduled something for that date.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: 23rd of June?
Page 5756
1 MR. WHITING: 23rd of June, that's a week from today, which under
2 the current schedule the Trial Chamber is free. We're not sitting on that
3 day for any purpose. So if it's possible to keep that date free, I would
4 be grateful because I've scheduled something else for that date.
5 Unless the Trial Chamber has any questions, those are really our
6 submissions. And I guess finally I would say again that we would seek
7 resolution of this matter today and that all the dates be decided so that
8 we know and can plan accordingly, that all the dates between now and the
9 beginning of the Defence case be decided and finally resolved once -- you
10 know, for good.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic, I'm sorry to -- I had to confer
13 with my colleagues.
14 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
15 As far as the issues are concerned raised by the Prosecutor, we
16 have a decision, the decision on schedule exists at the moment. The
17 Defence has filed a motion that the Trial Chamber is going to consider.
18 The Prosecutor insists on the Trial Chamber breaking the 65 ter (G) rule
19 and to rule on the schedule without the Prosecutor completing their case.
20 This is done only after the completion of the Prosecution case. The
21 Prosecutor is today in a haste, although neither the Defence nor the Trial
22 Chamber have led to this delay. This is the matter of the procedure and
23 it's up to the Prosecutor.
24 I have stated my reasons for which I have asked for our work to be
25 shorter today. I have nothing to add to that reason, and I believe it
Page 5757
1 would only be polite and courteous if my learned friend has taken my
2 reason into account. Thank you very much.
3 As for all the issues that have been raised in our submission and
4 the issues that have been raised by my learned friend from the
5 Prosecution, we can discuss those on Monday morning. And as for the
6 schedule that is -- that exists is something binding upon us as well as
7 upon my learned friend, until the Trial Chamber decides differently. In
8 order for the Trial Chamber to decide differently, our voice has to be
9 heard, and I have explained why I am ill-disposed to say anything today,
10 and I would kindly ask all concerned to bear that in mind.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Then thank you, Mr. Milovancevic.
12 The Bench has certainly heard what you have to say. And in
13 consideration of that point and the points raised by the Prosecution, the
14 Bench is going to make the following ruling at the moment: That the Bench
15 wants to consider the submissions of the parties further before it makes
16 any decision, barring the fact that the decision that is going to be
17 made -- I beg your pardon. Not the decision that is going to be made.
18 Barring the fact that the Prosecution case must still close on the 20th of
19 June. Okay. And then the rest of the other issues we'll deal with on
20 Monday, and we are going to try to accommodate everyone as far as is
21 possible. Some people may not be absolutely accommodated, and you've got
22 to bear in mind that the Chamber is also very much inclined to start with
23 the Defence case before we go on recess. That is also an important point
24 on the side of the Bench to consider for various other reasons that --
25 some of which I'm sure you are aware of.
Page 5758
1 In short, the ruling then is that we are going to adjourn, we are
2 going to consider the matter, but the Defence -- the Prosecution must
3 finish its Prosecution case by the 20th of June. Okay.
4 That brings us to the close of that matter.
5 Mr. Milovancevic, having said that, I'm not quite sure how urgent
6 it is for me to give a decision on protective measures for a Prosecution
7 witness. I know that we're getting close, and I don't know how --
8 Witness 45, can we do that on Monday?
9 MR. WHITING: We can, Your Honour. I actually anticipate that
10 that witness may not end up testifying. At the moment he's refusing to
11 testify, so we certainly do not need to deal with it now.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Court adjourned. Reconvened on
13 Monday - what is the date on Monday? - the 19th, at 9.00 in the morning in
14 this courtroom.
15 Court adjourned.
16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.15 p.m.,
17 to be reconvened on Monday, the 19th day of
18 June, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.
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