1 Monday, 19 June 2006
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.10 a.m.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning.
6 On Friday we -- the parties were talking about the Scheduling
7 Order. The Chamber has looked at it and has redrafted it, taking into
8 account the parties' concerns and submissions. The redrafted order will
9 be read in the next session.
10 Mr. Black.
11 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour. If there's no more
12 preliminary business, we would call our next witness, Ms. Sanja Buntic.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's very good.
14 [The witness entered court]
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the witness please make the declaration.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
17 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You may be seated, ma'am.
19 You may be seated.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Black.
22 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 WITNESS: SANJA BUNTIC
24 [Witness answered through interpreter]
25 Examination by Mr. Black:
1 Q. Good morning, Ms. Buntic.
2 A. Good morning.
3 Q. I know you understand English quite well and speak it well, but
4 you've elected to testify in Croatian. Is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Are you receiving the interpretation okay?
7 A. Yes, I am. Thank you.
8 Q. If at any time one of my questions is unclear or doesn't make
9 sense to you, please just let me know and I'll try to put it more clearly.
10 Do you understand that?
11 A. I do.
12 Q. Could you please state your full name for the record.
13 A. My name is Sanja Buntic. I was born in 1969 in Sarajevo.
14 Q. And you lived in Sarajevo until sometime in 1994, when you moved
15 to Zagreb. Is that correct?
16 A. Yes. To be more precise, I lived there until the month of October
18 Q. Could you explain to us just briefly why you left Sarajevo and
19 moved to Zagreb.
20 A. I came to Zagreb because I wanted to return to normalcy in life
21 because the life in Sarajevo had been anything but normal. I realised the
22 pointlessness of it all. I wanted to have a goal that I would be able to
23 focus on, rather than dwell on things that a person cannot really fathom.
24 That is why I decided to continue my studies of electrical engineering
25 that I had started in Sarajevo. I was already a third-year student.
1 However, the faculty in Sarajevo was located in the suburbs of Sarajevo
2 which didn't even have an elementary school but had a faculty. However,
3 since the Serb army had their Crisis Staff in the faculty itself, I was
4 unable to go there, and all the documentation concerning my studies was
6 In Zagreb I had to take the admission exam once again, which was
7 quite frustrating, especially after so many years of studying. At that
8 point I had to start all over again. Initially this proved to be quite
9 difficult, and five or six months later, just when I was about to get used
10 to normal living in Zagreb and I turned to the future, that was when the
11 2nd of May, 1995 happened.
12 It was a very nice, sunny day. I was on my way to the faculty,
13 and I was a bit earlier than normally. And I reached the Ban Jelacic
14 Square, which is the very centre of Zagreb, and I decided to take a walk
15 to the central railway station, and then from there to take a tram.
16 However, I never reached the central railway station because it was about
17 10.00 in the morning when I heard the sound of a shell, and I
18 instinctively threw myself on the ground and felt a sharp pain in my head
19 and in the area of my stomach.
20 In my immediate vicinity, a car blasted. There was smoke and dust
21 around me. I heard in the background women and children screaming. There
22 was panic all around. This happened all of a sudden.
23 Several minutes later, that seemed to last an eternity, I heard
24 someone calling out to me. Those were two police officers who saw the car
25 blast, and they were concerned about possible casualties. That was how
1 they spotted me. They helped me stand up and reach the shelter which was
2 located in the police station at Strossmayer Square, which is the very
3 centre of Zagreb. As I entered the shelter there, it was almost full.
4 There were quite a few women and children; they were all panic-stricken.
5 People weren't seriously wounded; they had sustained injuries from pieces
6 of shrapnel and pieces of bomblets.
7 At that point I wasn't experiencing that much pain. However, I
8 was approached by a young man who probably saw that I was very pale and
9 noticed that I was bleeding. He called police officers, asking them to
10 call for an ambulance. Five or ten minutes later the ambulance arrived,
11 but since it was already full they just went on their way. I was feeling
12 quite ill by that time, and they were quite concerned; however, some
13 journalists and tourists who happened to be down-town showed up, and they
14 asked me: Can I take a picture? And I was looking at them in disbelief,
15 shocked. I couldn't believe this. I saw this photo that they took of me
16 later on in the papers.
17 At last an ambulance arrived where there were two people already,
18 young people, a boy and a girl. The boy was severely wounded to his
19 lungs, and the girl wasn't that badly wounded, but we were all feeling
20 quite ill. Finally we reached a hospital in the centre of town, but they
21 no capacities to receive us because there were already many people there.
22 They kindly asked us to proceed to another hospital that was close to that
24 As we reached the other hospital the situation was the same; they
25 were sorry, but there was nothing they could do. So we proceeded to a
1 third hospital, where we were finally admitted, although there were many
2 people there. They didn't have beds enough for us, so they placed sheets
3 on mattresses on the floor. We had to lie down, undress, they asked us
4 some of the basics. The young boy and I myself, we were more severely
5 wounded, but still we were in -- quite wide awake, and after these
6 preliminary questions they X-rayed us and then we went into surgery. This
7 perhaps lasted a couple of hours, and I woke up in intensive care.
8 Q. Can I interrupt you just for a moment.
9 A. [In English] Okay.
10 Q. What was the name of that hospital where you were eventually
11 received and you went in for surgery?
12 A. I first came to the Trauma Hospital, where we weren't received;
13 then I went to the Rebro Hospital, they also refused us. Finally we were
14 received by the Merkur Hospital at Zajceva Street in Zagreb.
15 Q. And I wanted to ask you about a couple of locations that you
16 mentioned before we continue with your story.
17 You mentioned Ban Jelacic Square. Could you describe a little bit
18 what there is at Ban Jelacic Square, what the atmosphere is like.
19 A. Every town has a site that sets it apart from other towns, and for
20 Zagreb that's definitely the Ban Jelacic Square, that's the heart of the
21 town, the very centre of town, and the square is dominated by
22 Ban Jelacic's statue, an equestrian statue. Then there's a large clock
23 there which is the meeting point for young people. If you want to meet
24 someone while you're in Zagreb, where would you meet that person, well, on
25 the Ban Jelacic Square, next to the clock.
1 Then in the immediate vicinity of the square you have the Zagreb
2 cathedral, you have the upper town, the green marketplace, where of course
3 you can't miss meeting old ladies selling flowers. Then there is the
4 street full of cafes, where young people tend to go and meet.
5 On that particular day, the -- there were no special groups of
6 people dwelling on the square, although normally there are groups of
7 tourists next to the fountain then, just as is normally the case with
8 other large cities in other countries.
9 Q. Is the Ilica close to Ban Jelacic as well?
10 A. Yes. Ilica passes through the Ban Jelacic Square. That's the
11 longest street in Zagreb and connects the Ban Jelacic Square with the
12 western part of town, but it passes throughout the town itself?
13 Q. And could you describe, just very briefly, the Ilica, what kind of
14 atmosphere there is there, what people go there to do.
15 A. Ilica is not that wide, but it's a shopping street where you find
16 shops on either side of the street. Then there are restaurants and all
17 other amenities that otherwise constitute a modern town. And it's a link
18 between the old town, the old part of the town, and the new one.
19 Q. Thank you. And one last question about locations.
20 A. [In English] Okay.
21 Q. You said you were walking to the faculty. Where were you when you
22 heard the shell and when you suffered these injuries?
23 A. I got off the tram on the Ban Jelacic Square. At that point, I
24 lived some 15 minutes away from the Ban Jelacic Square, and as I got off
25 the tram on the square I decided to take a walk from the Ban Jelacic
1 Square to the central railway station, which is quite close. It took me
2 perhaps ten minutes. And then I was supposed to take a tram for my
3 faculty from there.
4 The square on which I suffered my injuries is also quite a popular
5 square, it's the Strossmayer square, which is quite close to the
6 Ban Jelacic Square, and that's also another square where young people tend
7 to meet.
8 Q. Thank you very much.
9 A. [In English] You're welcome.
10 Q. Before I interrupted you had just -- you were describing how you
11 had gone into surgery and the next thing you knew you woke up in intensive
12 care. How long were you in intensive care at the Merkur Hospital?
13 A. I spent some seven to ten days there, for as long as necessary.
14 They wanted to make sure that I didn't have stomach pains. However, later
15 on my condition was complicated by difficulties that I had in my lungs,
16 and then I had to be discharged from there because there was nothing that
17 they could do about that.
18 Q. And where did you go when you were discharged from the Merkur
20 A. I was first released from intensive care to another ward of the
21 same hospital, where they were trying to the drain water from my lungs,
22 which were unsuccessful, and then they performed several surgical
23 procedures intended to drain my lungs of water. And as they were
24 unsuccessful, they decided that I needed to be treated by a specialist,
25 once the findings for my stomach proved to be positive and a surgeon from
1 the Jordanovac Hospital came in one morning to examine me. He was
2 contacted by the surgeon who had previously operated on me and asked to
3 come. And they concluded that I was fit enough to be moved to the other
4 hospital in terms of my stomach injuries. And I was told that at 7.00 I
5 should be transferred to the Jordanovac Hospital. This in fact happened.
6 At 7.00 in the morning, the Jordanovac team came to pick me up at the
7 Merkur Hospital.
8 At the other hospital my lungs and my stomach were X-rayed. I was
9 then operated on, with a view to draining liquid from my lungs. Several
10 days later when it showed that the operation was successful, they stitched
11 up my wound in the lower left leg caused by a piece of shrapnel. Although
12 the shrapnel came close to the bone, the bone wasn't shattered and they
13 told me I was lucky, in fact, because -- I was lucky not to lose my leg.
14 I had several pieces of shrapnel in my head as well which hadn't
15 really damaged any of the centres in the brain, and I was lucky there,
17 Q. When the doctors performed the surgeries on your lungs, did they
18 tell you what they thought the chances of success were for those
20 A. They were 99 per cent sure that the operation would be
21 successful. However, they were sorry to open up my chest because I had
22 already been operated on in -- on other parts of my body. So they tried
23 to drain the liquid out of my lungs this way rather than open up my chest,
24 although of course there was the threat if this was to fail I was going to
25 be operated on. The draining was successful, everybody was happy, and
1 they all rejoiced in that success with me.
2 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Mr. Black?
3 MR. BLACK: Yes, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Whilst we're on the area of the hospital and
5 treatment, Ms. Buntic had said earlier on that she was refused admission
6 to first the Trauma Hospital and then the Rebro Hospital before being sent
7 on to the Merkur Hospital. I would like to know if she's able to say why
8 she couldn't get admission to the first two hospitals.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe I've partly answered the
10 question. The first two hospitals were overcrowding with patients. They
11 were unable to provide adequate medical treatment to me because they had
12 already admitted people who had suffered injuries the same way I did.
13 Since Zagreb had -- has quite a few hospitals, they decided to ask me to
14 proceed to other hospitals rather than take the risk.
15 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: It was because of the shelling why they were so
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, of course. Yes. Otherwise
18 they would have admitted me had there been no shelling. In addition to
19 the patients who were there from before, they suddenly had an influx of
20 many patients, many people.
21 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Thank you.
22 THE WITNESS: [In English] You're welcome.
23 MR. BLACK: May I continue, Your Honour?
24 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Yes. Thank you very much, Mr. Black.
25 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Q. Ms. Buntic, you've mentioned several injuries, including injuries
2 in your stomach area. Could you be more specific as to what injuries you
3 sustained on that day, the 2nd of May.
4 A. [Interpretation] The worst hit was my liver, in fact. There were
5 quite a few pieces of shrapnel there, and the ones they were able to
6 extract they did and they stitched me up.
7 As for other pieces of shrapnel, they -- the operation threatened
8 to damage more tissue by trying to extract the pieces of shrapnel than by
9 just leaving them there.
10 Following the operation, I was placed in intensive care, and I was
11 constantly running a high fever. There was the threat that I would not be
12 able to withhold the consequences of the operation, but I managed to pull
14 Q. Were the doctors ever able to extract all the shrapnel from your
16 A. No, no.
17 Q. When were you finally released from the Jordanovac Hospital, the
18 second hospital where you were treated?
19 A. I was discharged from the Jordanovac Hospital on the 2nd of June,
20 I believe it was. I was then sent for rehabilitation treatment, and I was
21 recommended to go to the Varazdin spa and that was quite helpful.
22 Q. Since then have where do you continued to go for any
23 rehabilitation or check-ups since then?
24 A. Yes. I had to come for check-ups repeatedly, for X-rays,
25 especially my liver because that's the one organ that can't recuperate
1 itself, and that's why I had to be under constant control. It can't
2 regenerate itself, that's to say. I had constant headaches caused by the
3 pieces of shrapnel in my head, but these seemed to be somehow in the
4 background, given all the other injuries that I had sustained.
5 Q. My last question for you is -- is if you could just tell us what
6 impact this event and these injuries have had on your life.
7 A. Unfortunately this occurred at the time when I was particularly
8 vulnerable, but life has to go on. Luckily, I am quite a religious person
9 and I try to find sense in all things. Given that I had had the
10 experience from Sarajevo where many of my friends got killed or were
11 disabled in wheel-chairs, I comforted myself with the fact that I had been
12 given another chance to live, unlike many others.
13 Q. Thank you, Ms. Buntic.
14 MR. BLACK: That completes my direct examination, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Black.
16 Mr. Milovancevic.
17 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Cross-examination by Mr. Milovancevic:
19 Q. Witness, good morning.
20 A. Good morning.
21 Q. My name is Predrag Milovancevic, and I am an attorney-at-law
22 representing Mr. Martic. This is the stage which is called
23 cross-examination where we will put some questions to you that we deem
24 relevant. Please make a break before answering my questions so that the
25 interpretation service can do its job.
1 A. Very well.
2 Q. Witness, you explained that until the month of October 1994 you
3 lived in Sarajevo. In response to the Prosecutor's questions you said
4 that you moved to Zagreb because the life in Sarajevo was all but normal.
5 In connection with this answer of yours, I have the following question:
6 As of April 1992, was there a war on in Sarajevo?
7 A. Yes, that's common knowledge.
8 Q. Did the war in Sarajevo break out right after the recognition --
9 the international recognition of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
10 A. The war broke out in 1991. I believe it was the end of April, but
11 this took place before the recognition. The entire town was blocked by
12 Serb logs and barricades. We woke up one morning without being able to
13 realise what was going on. There was no question of recognition at the
14 time. I'm not sure that I know -- I understand what you're trying to say.
15 Q. You say there was a war on in Sarajevo already. Isn't it true
16 that Bosnia-Herzegovina was recognised as an independent state on the 6th
17 of April, 1992?
18 A. I don't recall when it was.
19 Q. Well, it was in early April. I'm -- hate to interrupt you, but I
20 just want to clarify. Wasn't it the beginning of April 1992?
21 A. That can very well be the case. I don't remember.
22 Q. Thank you. You explained that your documentation was filed at the
23 faculty that was in the Serb-held Sarajevo. Were there parts of Sarajevo
24 held by Muslims?
25 A. No, there were no Muslim parts of Sarajevo. Sarajevo had always
1 been a multi-ethnic town without any divisions whatsoever.
2 As for this neighbourhood of Lukavica, it had always been
3 populated mostly by Serbs, although at the time the faculty was built the
4 idea was to turn it into a university centre. There were two factories
5 there, one was Energoinvest, which was telecommunications company, and
6 that's how they arrived at the idea of placing the electrical engineering
7 faculty there.
8 Q. Thank you. Am I right in saying that in Sarajevo before the
9 outbreak of conflicts, Serbs, Croats, and Muslims lived together. You
10 yourself stated that there were no problems before the war. Is that
11 indeed the case?
12 A. Yes. Before the war, Sarajevo was always Yugoslavia in miniature.
13 There were no inter-ethnic problems, no problems in the relations
14 between -- among Serbs, Croats, Muslims, and other people living there --
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are both forgetting to break. I can hear the
16 interpreter struggle to keep pace with you. Can I please remind you to
17 stop a little bit, pause a bit before answering.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. I apologise.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's not only you --
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We can be interrupted.
21 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] My apologies, too.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
23 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. You mentioned Lukavica. That was a suburb of Sarajevo where the
25 Sarajevo Serbs lived. Is that right?
1 A. Yes, but not only they. There were Muslims and Croats, although
2 Serbs formed the majority.
3 Q. Another question in relation to Sarajevo. Were there areas in
4 Sarajevo predominantly populated by Muslims or Croats? Were there such
5 areas in Sarajevo?
6 A. Well, one never looked at it that way --
7 MR. BLACK: Objection.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Black.
9 MR. BLACK: I apologise for the interruption. I delayed objecting
10 to this, wondering if Defence counsel was going to ask something that
11 related to the statement or the testimony today. But the last several
12 questions about Sarajevo have no relevance to this case, Your Honour. So
13 I would ask that -- I would object to them on the grounds of relevance.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic.
15 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I withdraw the
16 question. I will no longer dwell on the topic of Sarajevo in my
17 examination. I touched upon it merely because the Prosecutor asked the
18 witness when she left Sarajevo and why and what the situation was like
19 there. That was what prompted me to put these questions but this was the
20 last question, and as far as I'm concerned we've finished with this
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I say something on this
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: In that event, then the objection is upheld. And
25 may you proceed to questions relating to the subject matter of the case,
1 Mr. Milovancevic.
2 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Q. Witness, you explained that on that day when you sustained
4 injuries you got off on the Ban Jelacic Square and then from there you
5 proceeded on foot. You explained for the Prosecutor what Ban Jelacic
6 Square was like and what Ilica Street was like. You were not either on
7 the Ban Jelacic Square or in the Ilica Street when you sustained your
9 A. No. I said that I was on my way to the Strossmayer Square, which
10 is in the immediate vicinity, but I had been in those streets before.
11 Q. Thank you. Did you give a statement to the investigating judge
12 Radovan Ortinski before the court in Zagreb and did this take place in the
13 month of February 1996?
14 A. I don't recall the date, but I do know that I was invited for an
15 interview at the county court as a war victim. It might have -- I know
16 that it was in 1996, but I'm not sure about the month.
17 Q. From the 65 ter list, number 1726, the OTP forwarded the record of
18 your interview with the investigative judge, and there we can find your
19 statement that on the 2nd of May, 1995, around 10.30, you were close to
20 the police station at Strossmayer Square. Is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Thank you. Since the Prosecutor posed a number of questions
23 concerning the events when the witness was injured, I will not dwell on
24 that topic, and this concludes my examination at the same time. Thank
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Milovancevic.
2 Mr. Black.
3 MR. BLACK: No questions, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Judge.
5 Questioned by the Court:
6 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Ms. Buntic, may I ask an additional question about
7 your life, how it was going on after this incident.
8 You were asked about this impact it had --
9 A. Certainly.
10 JUDGE HOEPFEL: [Previous translation continues] ... so I would
11 like to ask you: Did you later go on with your studies? And if yes,
13 A. It took a long time to go back to my studies. Nevertheless, I
14 succeeded because I was surrounded by people who have helped me a lot and
15 it meant a lot at the time. Therefore, I managed to go back to my
16 studies. Not only that, but I was one of the best students in my class.
17 And I've simply decided that there was no point in thinking about the past
18 all the time, but rather to turn towards the future and to be practical
19 about my life and to decide what to do. Therefore, I directed all my
20 energy towards my studies, and I believe that helped me a lot to stay sane
21 in a way.
22 Therefore, I succeeded in that, and currently I work in the field
23 of telecommunications, and I am quite happy about my job.
24 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Yes. This is what I then also wanted to ask you.
25 But first, when did you take up your studies again and when did you then
1 finish them?
2 A. There was a break because of the therapy and the rehab programmes
3 I had to undergo. The electrical technical science faculty, something I
4 studied until 2002. I specialised in electronics. Being an electronic
5 expert, I was quite interested in the field of telecommunications;
6 therefore, I decided to transfer to the traffic and transport sciences
7 school because it is interlinked with the telecommunications. Therefore,
8 I am now working currently on intelligent transport systems and telecom
10 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Yes. Thank you. But could you please just give
11 me a date about when did you get back to your studies after your treatment
12 and when did you finish these studies.
13 A. I returned some two years afterwards, and I graduated from one
14 school in 2002 and then I transferred to the other one. Do you have in
15 mind the exact date? I'm not sure I understand.
16 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Do I understand you correctly: You had an
17 interruption of two years after May 1995 in your studies?
18 A. Yes.
19 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Yes. And then that means that you took up your
20 studies again in the summer term of 1997? And then you studied until
21 when, which semester?
22 A. The first school I completed in 2002, and then I transferred to
23 another one.
24 JUDGE HOEPFEL: 2002 -- yeah, thank you --
25 A. Which is linked to my previous field of study, and that was my
1 main focus of interest.
2 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you very much.
3 A. You're welcome.
4 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: No questions.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
6 Ms. Buntic, you mentioned injuries to your leg, but we really
7 never heard anything. You just mentioned the leg. Are you able to share
8 with us what kind of injuries you sustained to your leg?
9 A. Both of my legs in the upper part received wounds from various
10 pieces of shrapnel and pellets. A rather large fragment of shrapnel was
11 quite close to my femur, and immediately at the Merkur Hospital they had
12 to treat it, they had to extract it, but they couldn't stitch up the wound
13 because --
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is that the one that you say nearly hit the bone
15 but didn't shatter the bone?
16 A. Yes --
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. You were saying because -- sorry, I
18 interrupted you. You said they couldn't stitch up the wound because ...
19 A. Because there was constant ooze from the wound, and it had only
20 been treated later in another hospital. And they had to stitch it up on
21 three levels. I don't know the exact explanation. It was very
22 complicated and that was one separate operation itself. It was a very
23 deep wound.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: How do you feel on your legs right now? I mean, do
25 you feel you've completely healed on the legs?
1 A. I don't have any particular problem right now. It's been quite a
2 while, and my legs are -- seem to be fine now.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: You indicated that the injuries to your head,
4 although it was from shrapnel, they were also not too deep. Can you tell
5 us more about the injuries to the head?
6 A. As a matter of fact, those were pellets. What was characteristic
7 of the situation in Zagreb, they used the bomblets which are aimed at a
8 live force. Therefore, two pellets were lodged in my skin, and one did
9 hit the bone but did not shatter it. There was just a splinter fracture
10 and nothing of importance was damaged.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: When you were asked by the Prosecutor whether some
12 shrapnel was all removed from your body you said no. Where in your body
13 do you still have shrapnel?
14 A. In my legs there are still some pellets, then in my liver, and the
15 head, as well as there were some in the lungs. But as they explained it
16 to me, the organism accepts this foreign piece of metal by enveloping it
17 in some sort of a tissue and it just stays lodged there causing no further
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Do you still receive treatment for your
21 A. I have to be checked constantly by physicians, I have to mind my
22 diet. Apart from that, the rest is fine.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Ms. Buntic. I have no further
24 questions for you.
25 Mr. Black.
1 MR. BLACK: No questions arising, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic?
3 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] No questions. Thank you, Your
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Milovancevic.
6 Ms. Buntic, this brings us to the end of your testimony. Thank
7 you very much for coming. We know you're a busy person, but we also
8 appreciate --
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- that you could come. You're now excused. You
11 may stand down. Thank you so much.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 [The witness withdrew]
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Black.
15 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour. Ms. Valabhji will handle the
16 next witness. May I please be excused from the Chamber?
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are excused, Mr. Black.
18 Ms. Valabhji.
19 MS. VALABHJI: Good morning, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning, Ms. Valabhji.
21 MS. VALABHJI: The Prosecution calls Raseljka Grmoja to the stand.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: May Raseljka Grmoja come to the stand, please.
23 [The witness entered court]
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the witness please make the declaration.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
1 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You may be seated, ma'am.
3 Yes, Ms. Valabhji.
4 MS. VALABHJI: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 WITNESS: RASELJKA GRMOJA
6 [Witness answered through interpreter]
7 Examination by Ms. Valabhji:
8 Q. Good morning, Witness. Can you hear me clearly?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You have a good knowledge of English, but you've elected to
11 testify in Croatian. Is that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Please state your name for the Court.
14 A. My name is Raseljka Grmoja.
15 Q. Are you of Croatian nationality, born in 1978?
16 A. Yes, in Zagreb.
17 Q. What is your educational background?
18 A. I hold a master's degree as a pharmacist.
19 Q. What is your present occupation?
20 A. I work in a pharmacy in Zagreb as a pharmacist.
21 Q. In what city were you living in May 1995?
22 A. In Zagreb.
23 Q. How old were you then?
24 A. I was 17 at the time.
25 Q. In what year of school were you?
1 A. In the second year.
2 Q. Could you explain. Was this the second year of high school?
3 A. High school in Croatia lasts for four years, and that was my
4 second year.
5 Q. Thank you. I'd now like to turn to the events of the 2nd of May,
6 1995. Where were you on the 2nd of May, 1995?
7 A. I attended school. I was in the school building in the morning,
8 and in the afternoon I was at the trauma ward in Zagreb.
9 Q. We will come to that a bit later. What was the weather like that
10 day, on the 2nd of May, 1995?
11 A. It was sunny and warm.
12 Q. Where was your school located?
13 A. My school was located in the centre of Zagreb in Krizaniceva
15 Q. What was located in the area surrounding the school?
16 A. Close to the school there's a museum, there's a theatre called
17 Vidra, a student dorm, a hospital. Nowadays the Sheraton hotel is there,
18 but then it was still under construction.
19 Q. How would you describe the area surrounding the school?
20 A. In the same building where my school was, there were additional
21 three high schools, and therefore lots of young people are always to be
22 found there. They are around the building, in the surrounding parks.
23 Especially when there is a change of shift between the morning and the
24 afternoon, there are many students outside in the street.
25 Q. And just so we're clear, how far, approximately, was the centre of
1 Zagreb from your school? I'm referring to the very centre of the city.
2 A. For example, between my school and Ban Jelacic Square, which is
3 the very heart of Zagreb, there is some ten minutes by foot.
4 Q. And incidentally, what is the Ilica?
5 A. The Ilica is a street running from Bana Jelacica Square running
6 towards the west. It is the longest street in Zagreb.
7 Q. Were there any forms of public transportation passing near your
9 A. Next to the school there is a tram line.
10 Q. Were there any kind of military facilities in the immediate
11 vicinity of your school?
12 A. Not in the immediate vicinity of the school. The buildings are
13 those I mentioned, but a bit further away there is a military facility.
14 Q. Do you remember what that facility was?
15 A. I'm not quite certain. I know that it is used for military
16 purposes because I remember having seen soldiers around the building.
17 Q. I'd now like you to tell us what happened that day, on the 2nd of
18 May, and please start from the beginning.
19 A. The weekend before that we had a school trip to Italy, and on that
20 day, the 2nd of May, I asked my teacher during our Croatian language class
21 to let me and my friend leave a bit earlier so that we could develop the
22 photos taken during the trip. She did so, and when we left our classroom
23 we were the only ones in the corridor because there were classes running.
24 And a few seconds later we heard an explosion, and the window-pane
25 shattered and showered us with its pieces.
1 Immediately after that, the students began pouring out of their
2 classrooms. The teachers were directing them and instructing them to go
3 to the Sheraton, which had its own nuclear shelter and was quite close by.
4 We -- they told me and my friend to wait to be taken to a hospital by
5 someone. At that time I felt no pain, and I didn't know that anything had
6 happened to me. I could grasp that, seeing other students' faces, then I
7 realised something was going on.
8 Then we were taken to the Trauma Hospital, and there was great
9 commotion there, a lot of people, a lot of injured people. There was
10 panic and disquiet. And we sat in a waiting-room. After that we were
11 X-rayed, and I was told that I had a piece of shrapnel in my left
12 shoulder, or a pellet - I'm uncertain about the exact name, some sort of a
13 metal ball - and pieces of glass in my left eye. I also suffered surface
14 injuries to my face and arm.
15 After some four or five hours of waiting, my parents came to pick
16 me up. They've agreed with the physician that I come back the next day
17 for further treatment. Therefore, the next day the surgeon wanted to take
18 out that piece out of my shoulder, and so he did. And then the
19 ophthamologist cleaned up my eye, removed the debris that penetrated my
21 Q. Thank you, Witness. Did this incident affect you in any other
22 way? You've described your physical injuries, but I'd like to ask you:
23 Did this incident affect you in some other way?
24 A. I was under a lot of shock and fear because none of us expected
25 anything like that to happen. And as far as I know, up until that moment
1 Zagreb had not been attacked. Zagreb was a relatively safe and quiet
3 After that I felt anxious. I failed to attend school for a while,
4 although the classes continued, because I was afraid that something
5 similar could happen again. Particularly since the next day, on the 3rd
6 of May, there was another attack on the centre of the city. And later on,
7 whenever the alarm was sounded, I felt anxious and unease. I didn't feel
8 safe in that regard.
9 Q. Thank you, Witness.
10 MS. VALABHJI: Your Honour, perhaps this might be a convenient
11 time. I see we approach 10.15.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is indeed. We are at 10.15. We'll take a short
13 break. We'll come back at quarter to 11.00.
14 Court adjourned.
15 --- Recess taken at 10.13 a.m.
16 --- On resuming at 10.43 a.m.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Ms. Valabhji.
18 MS. VALABHJI: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Q. Ms. Grmoja, you mentioned that you were taken to the Trauma
20 Hospital and sat in a waiting-room. Do you recall approximately how long
21 it was before you were seen by medical staff that day?
22 A. There was great commotion in the hospital, as many people had come
23 over. They were in the waiting-room, everywhere around, even seated on
24 the floor. The wounded were everywhere around and all bloodied over.
25 As my injuries were not that severe, it was only one or two hours
1 later that I was taken to be X-rayed. After that, I had to wait for the
2 X-ray's results to see the doctor again. At about 5.00 in the afternoon,
3 after my parents found out where I was, they joined me in the hospital and
4 I was once again checked by a physician in the presence of my father,
5 whereupon I was discharged and allowed to go home.
6 Q. Approximately how long did it take you to recover from the
7 injuries you sustained that day?
8 A. For about one month I did not step out of my house. I didn't go
9 to school, as I said. And as that period went by, I felt fine and
10 everything was all right afterwards.
11 Q. Do you recall hearing anything in the media or on TV afterwards
12 about the shelling incident, that is after it occurred?
13 A. Most of the daily papers as well as TV news reports were covering
14 the events from all the sites at which the incident similar to mine
15 occurred. This was 11 years ago, but I do recall seeing images of a car
16 aflame in the Zrinjevac park. I recall seeing Croatian TV news report of
17 a person having been killed at Stara Vlaska Street. I also recall the TV
18 coverage of the events that took place the following day on the 3rd of May
19 at the children's hospital at Klaiceva Street. And I recall the footage
20 of the ballet dancers that had sustained injuries at the Croatian National
22 Q. Was there any warning of this attack?
23 A. No. As I've already said, up to that point we led a normal life.
24 We had even gone on a school excursion, and all our activities went on as
25 per normal. This was why all these events were sudden and unexpected.
1 Q. And in your view, what effect did the shelling have on the people
2 of Zagreb?
3 A. I believe it had great effect. In other parts of Croatia, there
4 was a war on, whereas we were able to lead a normal life in Zagreb.
5 However, after that we realised that we were not safe either. It made us
6 feel anxious, afraid, and unsafe.
7 Q. Finally, I'd like to go through a set of photographs.
8 MS. VALABHJI: Could 65 ter 1652 please be shown. Could we
9 enlarge that slightly, please? And let's scroll down to the second
10 picture as well.
11 Q. Ms. Grmoja, what is shown on the pictures on this page?
12 A. The pictures depict the building where the four Zagreb grammar
13 schools were located and are still located. The entrance depicted here is
14 the entrance to my seventh grammar school that I attended, but there is
15 another entrance at the other end. And there's also a plate which shows
16 the name of my school. And this is the entrance to the 16th grammar
17 school, which houses the other two schools next to the one where I went.
18 MS. VALABHJI: Let's look at page 3 of this document. It has ERN
19 00312229, and let's scroll down to the second photo, please.
20 Q. Ms. Grmoja, what is the second photo -- this photo that is now
21 being shown? What is this photo about?
22 A. This is the photograph of the school taken from the backyard.
23 Therefore, behind the school there's the sports ground where we normally
24 had our gym lessons, our gym classes. The gate you see here leads to the
25 backyard, and the building itself is my school seen from the back.
1 MS. VALABHJI: Let's turn now to the next page, and let's take the
2 pictures one at a time.
3 Q. What does this picture show?
4 A. What we can see here is also the school building as seen from the
5 back. This is the basketball court, whereas on the other side we were
6 able -- on the other picture we were able to see the football pitch. You
7 can still see the traces of the attack.
8 On this side of the building run the corridors, whereas at the
9 front side of the building there are classrooms. During the attack, I was
10 standing in the corridor that faces this side of the building and I was on
11 the second floor, whereas the other students -- or rather, most of the
12 students were in the classrooms that are on the other side. So this was
13 lucky for them.
14 MS. VALABHJI: Let's scroll down to the second picture on this
16 Q. What does this picture show?
17 A. This is a part of the building as seen from the backyard, clearly
18 showing the damage inflicted on the building on that day in the attack.
19 MS. VALABHJI: Let's look at the next page.
20 Q. And taking them one by one, what do these pictures show?
21 A. This first photograph shows the second floor and the corridor
22 where I was standing with my classmate. The second window from the right
23 was -- is the window of our classroom -- or rather, our classroom is to be
24 found at this particular distance, so that is where we were approximately
25 standing, near the second or the third window from the right, and you can
1 see it clearly here.
2 Q. And just so we're clear, the second or third window, is that --
3 are you referring to the window in the top row of windows or the second
4 row of windows? Perhaps you could point to the one you're referring to.
5 A. The second row is what I'm referring to.
6 Q. Okay. That suffices.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is that the second row on the top? Is it the
8 top-most row of windows?
9 MS. VALABHJI:
10 Q. Witness, perhaps we should use the pointer at this stage.
11 A. [In English] I think it was this one or this one.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
13 Ms. Valabhji.
14 MS. VALABHJI: Thank you.
15 Your Honour, could this image be saved and admitted into evidence?
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it not already into evidence? This image.
17 MS. VALABHJI: This particular image, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: This image is admitted into evidence. May it
19 please be given an exhibit number. And could this -- could it be saved
20 with the markings on it.
21 THE REGISTRAR: This will be exhibit number 813, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
23 Yes, Ms. Valabhji.
24 MS. VALABHJI: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Could we now scroll down to the second photo.
1 Q. Ms. Grmoja, what does this picture depict?
2 A. This is the sports ground in the back of the school. Behind the
3 windows with the grille were our dressing-rooms and the indoors gym hall.
4 And that's it, I believe.
5 Q. Were classes held in the sports ground at your school?
6 A. At the time of the attack, one of the classes of our school had a
7 gym class. And as far as I know, the male students of that particular
8 class were outside playing football but were asked by their teacher to go
9 back to their dressing-rooms in order to get dressed and prepare for the
10 subsequent classes, so that fortunately the sports ground was empty at the
11 time of the attack.
12 MS. VALABHJI: Let's turn now to the next page.
13 Q. And if you could briefly tell us, taking one photo at a time,
14 starting from the first one at the top. What do these photos show?
15 A. This is part of the school building, as seen from the backyard --
16 or rather, the sports ground. This photograph shows damage inflicted on
17 the building on that day.
18 MS. VALABHJI: Let's scroll to the second photo on the same page.
19 Q. And briefly tell us in a sentence or so what this photograph
21 A. The part of the building jutting out is the central part of the
22 building where the emergency staircase is located and which was the one we
23 used as we were leaving the building on that day. One can see the damage
24 inflicting on the building and on the football pitch itself.
25 I wanted to point out that when we came back to school and resumed
1 our classes, we found out that we were quite lucky, as there were many
2 bomblets that were dispersed from the cluster bomb itself. But nobody was
3 injured. There was no contact with the bomblets that were spread out in
4 the building.
5 MS. VALABHJI: And finally, the last set of pictures. Let's turn
6 to the next page.
7 Q. What does this picture show?
8 A. This is the part of the sports ground just in front of the part of
9 the building holding the emergency staircase. The hole in the ground is
10 probably the spot where the cluster bomb itself landed, dispersing pieces
11 of it that caused the damage that we saw to the building and the sports
12 ground in general, but I believe the next photograph shows this spot more
14 MS. VALABHJI: Let's scroll down to the next photograph.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the spot on the sports
16 ground behind the school which sustained most damage, and that is why I
17 believe that this is where the cluster bomb landed. This hole was left
18 unpatched for quite some time afterwards on the sports ground.
19 Q. Thank you, Ms. Grmoja.
20 MS. VALABHJI: I have no further questions, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Ms. Valabhji.
22 Mr. Milovancevic.
23 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Cross-examination by Mr. Milovancevic:
25 Q. Good morning, Witness.
1 A. Good morning.
2 Q. My name is Predrag Milovancevic, and I am Defence attorney for
3 Mr. Martic. I will now put to you some questions as part of our
4 cross-examination. Please make sure that you make a small break before
5 answering my questions so that the interpreters could do their job.
6 A. Very well.
7 Q. Thank you. In connection with the explanation you gave to my
8 learned friend from the OTP, you said that further away from the school
9 there was a military facility. When you made a correction to your
10 statement, it was due to the fact that you said that there was a military
11 facility near the school. Now, could you tell us how far the military
12 facility was from school? But could you wait a moment because my learned
13 friend is on her feet.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Ms. Valabhji.
15 MS. VALABHJI: Thank you, Your Honour. My learned friend, the
16 opposing counsel, refers to a correction that she made to her statement,
17 but I'm -- I'm not aware of such a correction. I wonder what he's
18 referring to, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic, can you show us where the
20 correction was made?
21 [Defence counsel confer]
22 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I was referring to
23 the piece of information we received yesterday from the Prosecutor, and
24 these were additional explanations, and they had to do with the question I
25 just put to the witness. I don't think this should be in dispute.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: These are explanations to which the Court is not
2 privy. You say they were given yesterday, so the Court would not know
3 anything about them.
4 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, these were
5 explanations provided to us by the Prosecution. I of course don't know
6 whether you share the information or not. I'm not aware of this at this
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Ms. Valabhji, we -- the Court is in darkness.
9 MS. VALABHJI: Yes, Your Honour. It's simply the supplemental
10 information sheet that sometimes is provided following proofing,
11 additional information. However, my learned colleague mentioned, when
12 phrasing his question, a correction that she made to her statement; I
13 don't see it in that way. It's a supplemental information sheet, Your
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: The unfortunate thing is that the Court is not
16 privy to the supplemental information and the Court is not in a position
17 to say whether what you are saying is correct or what Mr. Milovancevic is
18 saying is correct. I don't know how to rule on this one because we don't
19 have a copy of that supplemental information.
20 MS. VALABHJI: I'm happy to provide it, Your Honour, should the
21 Bench deem it necessary.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is this an issue that is so serious that it
23 requires providing that copy?
24 MS. VALABHJI: I don't believe so, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: You don't believe so.
1 In that event, I'll let the question go through.
2 You may proceed, Mr. Milovancevic. The objection is overruled.
3 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. It was
4 not my intention to take issue with anything. I just wanted to -- the
5 witness to clarify this point. I wanted the witness to tell me how far
6 the military facility was from her school.
7 Q. Can you tell me that, Witness, if you know?
8 A. As I've already explained, I mentioned the buildings which were
9 located in the immediate vicinity of the school, like for instance the
10 theatre and the museum. They are to be found in the immediate vicinity of
11 the school.
12 Now, this particular facility, which I don't know what exactly it
13 housed, I wasn't particularly interested. I only remember seeing the
14 military guard in front of the building. I believe the distance between
15 my school and that facility is the same as the distance between my school
16 and Ban Jelacic Square. I wouldn't be able to tell you the distance as
17 the crow flies, but I think that it would take one to walk 10 to 15
18 minutes from my school to that particular military facility.
19 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have no
20 further questions for this witness. Thank you.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Milovancevic.
22 Any re-examination, Ms. Valabhji?
23 MS. VALABHJI: None, Your Honour. Thank you.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Ms. Valabhji.
1 JUDGE HOEPFEL: No, thank you.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Judge?
3 Questioned by the Court:
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Ms. Grmoja, I'm going to ask you a few questions
6 You said when you left to go and print or develop your pictures
7 from your visit to Italy, you were with one student. Now, did she also
8 get injured? Did the windows -- window-panes fall on her, too?
9 A. We were walking along the corridor side by side, and this was the
10 part of the corridor just outside our courtroom. I was on the side closer
11 to the window, and she was next to me. She was therefore more slightly
12 injured than I was, although I believe she had some glass in her eye as
13 well and she went to the Trauma Hospital at Draskoviceva Street together
14 with me. However, I don't think she underwent any further medical
15 treatment after that one.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: You also indicated that you sustained surface
17 injuries to your face and arm. Are you able to tell us a little more
18 about those injuries and how they came about?
19 A. I think the injuries were a result of the window-pane having been
20 shattered and pieces of glass falling all over us. It having been
21 summertime, we were wearing T-shirts. And of course the parts of my skin
22 that were exposed sustained cuts that were bleeding in part, as was the
23 left side of my face and my left eye. But all the wounds were surface
24 wounds and took a relatively short time to heal.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
1 In response to a question by the Prosecutor as to any other
2 effects that you had from this shelling, you indicated fear, anxiety, and
3 uneasiness. Do you remember that?
4 A. I do.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: You also remember that, again in response to a
6 question by the Prosecutor, you indicated that it took you a month before
7 you were all right.
8 A. Yes.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: What I do want to get clarified on is did -- the
10 period of the month, was it the month before you were all right
11 physically, or was it also the psychological problems of fear, anxiety and
12 uneasiness, were they all over in a month, too?
13 A. The physical injuries healed in a month. As regards any
14 psychological problems or the anxiety I mentioned, after the initial one
15 month I was ready to go back to the scene and to return to the school and
16 to go on with my life. But that doesn't mean that I couldn't still feel
17 the consequences in my mind, although I was quite aware that I had to face
18 up to it and to go on, although my fear and my anxiety caused by the
19 attack on Zagreb took a longer time to disappear, to go away completely.
20 After the one month I mentioned, I was prepared to go back to the school
21 to where -- to the place where everything happened.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you able to give an estimate of how much longer
23 it took for your psychological problems to disappear completely?
24 A. It is difficult to define it precisely or give it the exact date,
25 but at least for another year and a half or two years after that I kept
1 going back to that day in my mind and I dreamt about it. And now it is
2 quiet and peaceful in Croatia and it's a different time and age, therefore
3 I no longer think about what had happened.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I then accept that when in response to the
5 question by the Prosecutor you said -- I'm going to try and quote you
6 partly. You said: It's 11 years since the incident, but I still do have
7 images of a car burning, people injured, and you described a few other
8 things. Are those just memories, not -- but they don't give you any
9 psychological problems? You are not having any problems -- these are not
10 visions or dreams, like you said a few minutes ago you used to dream about
11 these things. These are not dreams. These are just things that you
12 remember because you are now talking about the incident?
13 A. I didn't quite understand your question, but I remember nowadays
14 what I saw. And I saw some of the footage that was broadcast on
15 television, and they stuck to my mind far better than the pieces and
16 photographs that I saw in the newspaper. I'm not sure I understand you.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, you have told us that it took you two years
18 before you stopped dreaming about what used to happen, right -- what
19 happened --
20 A. Yes.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's right. Now, and that after two years you
22 were fine. And I'm now saying earlier you had indicated that although it
23 is 11 years since the incident, you still have images of what happened on
24 that day. Okay?
25 A. Yes.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: And my question now is: These images, are they
2 just images that you are now remembering as you are sitting there being
3 asked about this incident, or are these images that come back to you in
4 the form of dreams 11 years since? That's what I want to know.
5 A. Well, after that I went on with my life and didn't think too much
6 about what had happened during those two days, but today discussing this
7 with you or if I were discussing it with anyone else I still feel uneasy,
8 and I don't like going back and remembering it all.
9 As for my dreams, they sometimes had to do with what I had been
10 through, sometimes they were not linked to what had happened.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Ms. Grmoja. I'm sorry, I
12 didn't want to put you through any bad memories, but we needed to get the
14 Ms. Valabhji, any questions?
15 MS. VALABHJI: Nothing arising, Your Honour. Thank you.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic?
17 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] No questions, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
19 This brings us to the end of your testimony, Ms. Grmoja. And on
20 behalf of the Tribunal and the Chamber, I'd like to take this opportunity
21 just to say thank you to you for coming to testify. You are now excused.
22 You may stand down. Thank you so much.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 [The witness withdrew]
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before we ask -- yes, ma'am. You stand up --
1 MS. VALABHJI: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I'm sorry to interrupt.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are welcome. Stand up and interrupt.
3 MS. VALABHJI: I was merely going to ask if I may be excused at
4 the present time, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are excused. You may stand down, too. Thank
6 you very much.
7 MS. VALABHJI: Thank you.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: This morning we indicated that we will read the
9 oral order on scheduling in the second session.
10 Do you want to leave before we start reading, Ms. Valabhji? You
11 may do so.
12 Okay. The order is as follows:
13 1. On the 9th of June, 2006, the Trial Chamber issued its
14 Scheduling Order concerning the further scheduling of the trial.
15 2. On the 14th of June, the Defence filed its submission
16 regarding the Trial Chamber's Scheduling Order of 9th of June by which
17 submission the Defence requests the Trial Chamber to reconsider its
18 Scheduling Order.
19 3. At the beginning of the -- I beg your pardon. At the hearing
20 on the 16th of June, the Prosecution made its submissions in relation to
21 the further scheduling of the trial.
22 4. The Trial Chamber has considered the parties' submissions, and
23 in order to accommodate the parties' requests for more time while
24 balancing the dictates of a fair and expeditious trial orders as follows:
25 5. The Trial Chamber recalls its ruling at the hearing on the
1 16th of June that the Prosecution case is to conclude, as previously
2 scheduled, at the latest on the -- on Tuesday, 20th of June, 2006.
3 6. The Trial Chamber notes that after the hearing on the 16th of
4 June, the Trial Chamber informally advised the parties that submissions
5 pursuant to Rule 98 bis, if any, would not take place, as previously
6 scheduled, on Wednesday, the 21st of June. The Trial Chamber furthermore
7 advised the parties that any such submissions would be postponed until a
8 point in time to be determined today.
9 7. In order to provide further preparation time for the parties,
10 the Trial Chamber orders that any submissions pursuant to Rule 98 bis
11 shall take place on Monday, the 26th of June. This is six days after the
12 close of the Prosecution's evidence in chief and an additional four days,
13 as compared with the original Scheduling Order.
14 8. At the latest, one week subsequent to any 98 bis submissions,
15 that is on Monday, the 3rd of July, the Trial Chamber will deliver oral
16 judgement pursuant to 98 bis rule.
17 9. The Defence is ordered to submit its filing pursuant to
18 Rule 65 ter (G) on the 5th of July, which is an additional full week, as
19 compared with the original Scheduling Order.
20 Furthermore, pursuant to Rule 54, the Defence is ordered to
21 include in its 65 ter (G) submission information on which the first
22 witnesses will be for the week of the 10th of July.
23 10. The Trial Chamber has taken note of the Defence's submission
24 that Rule 65 ter (G) requires that the Defence be ordered to submit its
25 filings "after the close of the Prosecution's case." The Trial Chamber
1 notes that, for example, in Brdjanin the Trial Chamber ordered that not
2 only 65 ter (G) material should be filed, but that even submissions
3 pursuant to Rule 98 bis should be made before the close of the
4 Prosecution's case. The Trial Chamber also notes that in some cases the
5 Defence has been requested to file a provisional witness list on the same
6 day as the close of the Prosecution case. The Trial Chamber is of the
7 opinion that what matters in this respect is adequate preparation time for
8 the parties. The Trial Chamber's order has given extra notification time
9 to the Defence in this respect.
10 11. The Defence argues that seven days are needed between the
11 98 bis oral judgement and the filing of 65 ter (G) submission. The Trial
12 Chamber is of the opinion that up until the rendering of the oral
13 judgement pursuant to Rule 98 bis, the Defence is under an obligation to
14 plan for its presentation of evidence based on all counts and allegations
15 of the indictment. This means that the Defence will make the majority of
16 the preparations for its case prior to the rendering of the 98 bis
17 judgement. The Trial Chamber also notes that several breaks, both planned
18 and unplanned, have taken place during the conduct of this trial which, in
19 its view, should have been used for such preparations. After the
20 rendering of the 98 bis judgement, the Defence will be in a position to
21 assess to what extent its preparations have been unnecessary. This is,
22 unfortunately, a fact of life at trial before the Tribunal. Properly
23 prepared plans for a Defence case may adequately and appropriately be
24 amended within the time given in this order, namely within two days. The
25 Trial Chamber notes here the 65 ter (G) submission is also not a final
1 work product, but that it is the start of a process which ultimately
2 concludes in the Pre-Defence Conference.
3 12. The Trial Chamber has reconsidered its scheduling of the
4 Pre-Defence Conference and orders that it take place on Friday, the 7th of
5 July, two days after the filing of the 65 ter (G) submission in order that
6 the Trial Chamber have adequate time to read and consider the submission.
7 13. The Defence opening statement is ordered to take place on
8 Tuesday, the 11th of July. The presentation of the Defence evidence shall
9 commence the same day. This means that the Defence will have sufficient
10 time to make any last-minute changes to its witness list as a result of
11 the outcome of the Pre-Defence Conference. The Trial Chamber orders the
12 Defence to ensure that it makes full use of that week by calling
13 sufficient witnesses to fill the time available. The Defence shall ensure
14 that the last witness concludes on Friday, the 14th of July, in order not
15 to continue after the recess.
16 14. The Trial Chamber notes the Prosecution's submission that it
17 requires a minimum of 12 days for preparing for the first Defence
18 witnesses. Under the revised schedule, the Prosecution's preparation time
19 for the first Defence witnesses is five days from the filing of the 65
20 ter (G) submission. In light of the fact that the first Defence evidence
21 is only heard for four days prior to a four-week recess, five days of
22 preparation time must be considered sufficient.
23 15. The Trial Chamber considers that the Defence's further
24 arguments in its submission relating to the separate issue of Mr. Babic's
25 testimony and the resources available to the Defence are irrelevant to the
1 present order.
2 16. In conclusion, while the Trial Chamber recognises that this
3 schedule will put stress on the parties, it considers that the alternative
4 of commencing the Defence case on the 14th of August is not an option. A
5 delay of almost eight weeks between the close of the Prosecution's case
6 and the start of the Defence's case does not amount to good use of
7 available court time and violates the accused's right to an expeditious
9 17. The Trial Chamber now considers this matter to be closed.
10 Having considered the parties' submissions, the Trial Chamber is confident
11 that this Scheduling Order upholds the rights of the accused to a fair and
12 expeditious trial, while having considerations for the parties' workload
14 That's the order. Thank you very much.
15 Mr. Black.
16 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour. I have do have a couple of
17 other -- not truly housekeeping matters to raise, but a few other matters.
18 Should I raise those now?
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may raise them right now, Mr. Black.
20 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 The first is I just would note that we -- the Prosecution filed
22 our response on the issue of certification this morning. I did send a
23 courtesy copy by e-mail to the Chamber's legal officer as well as the
24 Defence. And in any event, it's in the system and hopefully you'll get it
25 in the normal process as well.
1 Your Honours have inquired several times with regard to agreed
2 facts. We have again raised it with the Defence and I believe we'll be in
3 a position to file something tomorrow, Your Honour, a final agreed facts
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Black.
6 MR. BLACK: The next issue, the Prosecution is now in a position
7 to drop two witnesses from its witness list. Witness MM-017 is no longer
8 necessary, given the testimony of other witnesses; and Witness MM-045 will
9 be dropped as well. He refuses to testify because he's too afraid.
10 The fourth issue, Your Honour. We are in a position to accept all
11 of the opposed lifting of private session, as Your Honours provided us
12 with a transcript of the cross-examination with certain portions
13 highlighted which have been made public regarding to Witness MM-080.
14 We're in agreement with all of those, Your Honour.
15 And the fifth matter relates to 92 bis materials. Your Honour,
16 the 92 bis materials for a number of witnesses, I think five witnesses,
17 are currently with the Registry awaiting the assignment of exhibit
18 numbers. Another two witnesses were admitted by Your Honours just last
19 week. Those were witnesses MM-024 and MM-032. I will get those materials
20 to the Registry -- well, hopefully into e-court and a notice to the
21 registrar hopefully tomorrow, but certainly this week, Your Honour.
22 And with regards to the Scheduling Order. The Prosecution still
23 intends to close its case tomorrow.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Black.
25 You're not expecting the Chamber to do anything in terms of 92 bis
1 material. I'm not quite sure I understood what you are saying. You are
2 saying that there are 92 bis materials with Registry?
3 MR. BLACK: I apologise, Your Honour. I can clarify.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Please do.
5 MR. BLACK: The procedure has been after the Trial Chamber admits
6 evidence pursuant to Rule 92 bis, at that point we put it into the e-court
7 system, notify the Registry, and then they put exhibit numbers on the
8 documents. It's just a technical thing. All of the 92 bis material issue
9 here is already in evidence. It's just a question of getting exhibit
10 numbers, Your Honour. That was my only question. There are no new
11 motions for admission under 92 bis or anything of the sort. It's more of
12 a procedural question.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
14 I'm aware of you, Mr. Milovancevic. I'll call you just now.
15 Yes, Mr. Milovancevic.
16 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
17 I have two things. One is very brief. In our submission we asked
18 for the schedule for the rest of the proceedings, and we put forth some
19 proposals for things to be discussed before the Chamber. And we are quite
20 sorry to hear now that we won't be allowed to argue those here.
21 Second of all, we can acquaint you with a problem that we have.
22 The schedule you set forth depends completely on a single fact which is
23 beyond our control. We've been here for five months and ten days, and up
24 until this moment not a single day's work had been paid to us in terms of
25 per diem, and it reflects and impacts our further ability to work. On the
1 30th of March, you've made your decision on the correction of the Registry
2 decision, and that was implemented only on the 21st of April. The last
3 two salaries were not paid out to us, and we're not used to that. They
4 say they have to calculate between the euro and the dollar and so on and
5 so forth. We had a meeting. We submitted a submission a month ago. Then
6 upon Registry's requests we attended a meeting where they told us that
7 many other Defence teams have similar problems.
8 However, Your Honours, right at this moment we are in such a
9 position that we are those financing the Registry. The expenses in terms
10 of per diem comes out of our pockets, and we haven't been paid those. Our
11 salaries are late, and this directly impacts the work of our
12 investigators. All this may have serious consequence on the further work
13 of this Chamber.
14 I am aware that this has no direct link with you, and we didn't
15 mention that until this moment because we were too ashamed - to put it
16 that way - to bring it out in open court. But we are all professionals.
17 We are not doing this pro bono, and we have to live from our work. And it
18 would be a very good situation if we could finally have this thing
20 Thank you very much.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Taking the issues that were raised, first by
22 Mr. Black. Does the Defence have any comment to make on the lifting of
23 the private session material relative to Witness MM-080? I think the
24 Chamber has distributed to the parties parts of the evidence of that
25 witness which we -- the Chamber felt should really not be in private
1 session and should be lifted.
2 Any comment on that, Mr. Milovancevic?
3 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we state
4 our position at a later stage, if we may have a brief time that you would
5 allow us to address that?
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Very well then.
7 Then, coming to the issues that you raised. I was of the
8 impression, Mr. Milovancevic, that subsequent to your submissions we had
9 some discussions in court here about the rescheduling, and on the 16th of
10 June we had a bit of a discussion about that. I didn't -- we didn't hear
11 any further submissions on what you wanted us to do, so we assumed that
12 you have told us everything that you needed to tell us, and it's on that
13 basis that we went ahead and drew this order.
14 So on the question of your pay, I don't know whether there is
15 anything else that this Chamber can do for you, Mr. Milovancevic; as you
16 will rightly say, it is not a matter that is directly linked to us. We
17 have dealt with the matter when you submitted a motion before us on how
18 Registry had dealt with your -- the estimate of your fees, and we gave an
19 order. And I can only suggest that you keep knocking at their door and
20 ask them to please pay you. Tell them that you are not able to carry on
21 with your work unless you are paid.
22 I don't know what else I could say to you. And -- but going back
23 to the order, the Scheduling Order, I think we must accept that we really
24 must carry on with this case. We cannot delay it any longer than it has
25 been delayed. We have been having a number of delays, and it is important
1 that we bring it to finality as soon as we can, and hence this order. It
2 is not only you who are put under pressure, everybody's put under
3 pressure. The Prosecution is put under pressure, the Chamber is put under
4 pressure, and -- we are all under pressure. I suppose that's part of
5 occupational hazards, and we must live with them. Just a moment.
6 Thank you very much. I hope I have dealt exhaustively with all
7 the issues that have been raised, and we can call the next witness now.
8 [Defence counsel confer]
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Black.
11 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, we did not anticipate that these
12 witnesses would go so quickly. The next witness will not be ready to
13 testify until tomorrow morning, so we will have a short day today. And
14 there will be just one witness tomorrow.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, in that event, we -- it looks like we have no
16 option but to adjourn.
17 You are pressing your microphone, Mr. Milovancevic. Do you have
18 something to say?
19 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I wanted to
20 explain something briefly, so as to avoid any misunderstanding.
21 On Friday, the 16th, we didn't discuss the schedule because we
22 were expected to be given an opportunity to put our position as regards
23 this. The OTP was given their time to express their views, but we haven't
24 been consulted at all.
25 Thank you.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: The Chamber has heard what you've had to say,
2 Mr. Milovancevic. Thank you so much.
3 It looks like we've come to the end of the day for today.
4 Do remember, Mr. Milovancevic, that the Defence must express its
5 position on Witness MM-080 when we meet first thing tomorrow morning, and
6 then we can decide whether to uplift that -- the private session on
7 those -- on that evidence.
8 Court adjourned to tomorrow at 9.00.
9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 11.47 a.m.,
10 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 20th day of
11 June, 2006, at 2006