Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6951

1 Wednesday, 23 August 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 8.59 a.m.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning, Mr. Witness. Once again I warn you

7 that you are still bound by the declaration you made to tell the truth,

8 the whole truth, and nothing else but the truth. Thank you very much.

9 Mr. Milovancevic.

10 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

11 WITNESS: WITNESS MM-096 [Resumed]

12 [Witness answered through interpreter]

13 Examination by Mr. Milovancevic: [Continued]

14 Q. Good morning, sir.

15 A. Good morning.

16 Q. Today we're going to finish your examination-in-chief. Now we

17 will continue. I would like to remind you once again about our mutual

18 duty towards the interpreters to make a break between question and answer

19 so that they could do their job properly.

20 Yesterday we finished the day with a document that was on the

21 monitor. I think we can look at the document again. This is Exhibit 682.

22 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have that on the

23 monitor?

24 Q. You can see the document in front of you now. Do you remember

25 seeing this document yesterday? It's an application to be admitted to the

Page 6952

1 Banja Luka secondary school for internal affairs. Do you recall that?

2 A. Yes, I do.

3 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now look at

4 page 04006946 in the B/C/S of this document -- actually, it's page 2 of

5 the English translation.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is that page --

7 THE INTERPRETER: Correction, page 3 of the English translation.

8 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, yes, in the

9 English translation it's page 3. Yes, it's page 3 of a total of four

10 pages.

11 Q. Sir, yesterday you looked at the heading of this document. It's a

12 document by the public security station in Drnis relating to the candidate

13 who submitted the application for the internal affairs secondary school.

14 Could you please tell me who this information refers to. Is that the

15 candidate whose name we saw in the previous document, and could you please

16 read paragraphs 2 and 3 of this document.

17 A. You can see from this document, from the information, that it is

18 the person from the document we looked at before applying to be admitted

19 to the school of the organs of internal affairs. This document

20 states: "Since residing -- since he no longer resides in Drnis,

21 Aleksandar's behaviour has been quite insolent. He socialises with his

22 peers as well as those older than he is who have a tendency for stealing,

23 harassing elderly citizens of Croatian ethnicity, and he takes the lead in

24 this. He's quite insolent towards the SUP workers when he talks with

25 them." He talks about injustices and so on. His father is now on a post

Page 6953

1 at Zitnic. It's a person who is prone to consuming large quantities of

2 alcohol and as such fires in town from fire-arms and creates disorder in

3 the house and there are frequent fights and disagreements.

4 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at the bottom of

5 this document.

6 Q. Can you read what it says in the lower right-hand counter.

7 A. It says: "Information checked by Nikola Vugdelija." This is the

8 person who actually wrote this report.

9 Q. Looking at this document in front of us now, is Nikola Vugdelija a

10 staff member of the Drnis public security station, based on what is on

11 this document?

12 A. According to this document, Nikola Vugdelija is an employee of the

13 Drnis public security station. I happen to know him personally and I know

14 that he worked at that station even before the war.

15 Q. In view of what you have read, can you tell us what his assignment

16 was. What is he actually reporting on?

17 A. His primary task in this report was to check the information

18 relating to the applicant interested to be admitted to the secondary

19 school for internal affairs.

20 Q. Thank you. That will be sufficient.

21 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at page 6944,

22 the last four digits on the B/C/S copy; and in the English that is page 2.

23 Can we look at the beginning of this document?

24 Q. Can you tell us whose document this is, what does it say in the

25 heading?

Page 6954

1 A. This is a document of the Knin SUP.

2 Q. Thank you. And what is the subject of the document?

3 A. The document is information about enrolment at the SUP secondary

4 school.

5 Q. The last sentence before the list begins actually says: "The

6 following candidates were not admitted."

7 Do you see the name of the candidate who was mentioned in the

8 previous document?

9 A. Yes. It's the name under number 8, Aleksandar Tisma, the

10 candidate who was not admitted to the secondary school for internal

11 affairs. It's the name under number 8.

12 Q. There is also an explanation why certain candidates were admitted

13 and why others were not admitted. Could you please read that.

14 A. "On the 18th of August, 1993, the commission of the Ministry of

15 Internal Affairs selected the candidates to be enrolled at the internal

16 affairs secondary school in Banja Luka for the 1993/1994 school year. Due

17 to a large number of applicants, those selected had the best school

18 grades, were physically fit, had not been prosecuted, or their family

19 members were never prosecuted either."

20 Q. Thank you. Based on these three documents that you saw, sir, can

21 you perhaps conclude why the candidate Tisma -- excuse me, I didn't wish

22 to mention his name, the candidate under 8 was not admitted to school?

23 A. You can see from the documents that this candidate, number 8, was

24 not admitted to school because of the data established during the vetting

25 conducted by organs of the internal affairs. The candidate or himself or

Page 6955

1 his father do not meet the conditions required in order to be admitted to

2 school. His conduct is not something that is suitable and does not meet

3 the required standards.

4 Q. You worked in the police of SAO Krajina from 1990 until the

5 Operation Storm. So were these criteria applied throughout that whole

6 period? Do you know anything about that?

7 A. It was the duty of the commissions or the managers of the

8 organisational units of MUP, of the RSK, to vet all the candidates or new

9 employees. They had to check all the candidates interested in attending

10 schools and training courses of the Ministry of the Internal Affairs of

11 the RSK.

12 Q. Thank you. Did the RSK have its own education centre where police

13 officers were trained?

14 A. The RSK had its training centre in Golubic where police officers

15 were trained. These were policemen who had already completed secondary

16 school and served their regular military term of duty. They were trained

17 at Golubic.

18 Q. Thank you very much.

19 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] This document has already been

20 admitted into evidence. Can we now look at exhibit 674, please, 674. Can

21 we zoom in on the top left-hand corner so that the witness could read it,

22 please?

23 Q. The text is not so clear, but can you tell us who drafted this

24 text and who is it being sent to? Can you see that from the heading?

25 A. You can see that the document was drafted at the Korenica

Page 6956

1 Secretariat for Internal Affairs and it's being sent to the 17th August

2 education centre at Golubic.

3 Q. Can you tell us what the subject of this document is. Below the

4 heading there is always the reference, the subject. Can you tell us what

5 that is?

6 A. It's an application for enrolment to the high school for internal

7 affairs.

8 Q. Can you see underneath which school actually this is. You see two

9 lines on the screen, and it's enough. Perhaps you can read that.

10 A. "Find attached applications for enrolment at the internal affairs

11 high school in Zemun."

12 Q. Thank you, thank you.

13 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at the bottom

14 of the document to see who signed it.

15 Q. It's unclear. Can you please tell us who signed this document?

16 A. There's a signature there in the name of Marko Dragicevic, the

17 secretary, but it's not him who signed it. Somebody else signed it on his

18 behalf.

19 Q. Thank you. Based on all of this, can you tell us what this case

20 is about, what is the Korenica SUP asking the education centre in Golubic

21 17th August to do?

22 A. The Korenica SUP is sending in applications for enrolment at the

23 school for internal affairs in Zemun in Serbia. They were forwarding the

24 list to the Golubic education centre, and they are asking the Golubic

25 training centre to include the candidates on the list for admittance to

Page 6957

1 the Zemun high school.

2 Q. Thank you. At the beginning of the examination-in-chief, at the

3 beginning of your testimony, sir, you explained that -- or you stated that

4 in early January 1991 the SAO Krajina SUP was formed. Do you remember

5 that?

6 A. Yes, I do.

7 Q. Can you tell us very briefly what was one of the main tasks of the

8 SUP secretary?

9 MR. WHITING: Excuse me, Your Honour, this question's been asked

10 and answered already a long time ago, this exact question about the tasks

11 and -- of the secretary.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic.

13 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, perhaps my

14 colleague is right. I just wanted to create the ambiance in order to

15 present a document, but I can withdraw the question in order to save time

16 and just move on.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you for saving time, Mr. Milovancevic. Move

18 on.

19 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: There's just a question I'd like to ask before

20 you proceed. Thank you, Mr. Milovancevic.

21 I see a reference in the document to subject: "Application to

22 enroll at the college."

23 Now, the word that is being mentioned is "high school." I would

24 like to know what ages would the applicants be or the students be at this

25 college, because there is normally some distinction between college and

Page 6958

1 high school. So I'd like that clarified. I normally know college to be

2 after high school.

3 So could the witness answer, please. Thank you.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, high school of internal

5 affairs is -- comes after secondary school. So in the previous system of

6 levels, it -- the secondary school had the third and fourth degree. Some

7 of them had the fifth level. The higher school had the sixth level,

8 whereas the universities had the seventh level. High schools always were

9 counted as almost -- as having completed the first two years of

10 university.

11 In this particular case, the candidates attending ranged from 20

12 to some 30 years of age. They had already started their work and were

13 continuing their schooling as they were working. That was the practice

14 then in many of the Ministries for Internal Affairs in other republics,

15 too.

16 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Where does college fit in in the process, or are

17 the two words "high school" and "college" synonymous? Did you hear me?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can hear you, Your Honour.

19 Higher school meant the first two years of university. So if

20 somebody who had completed this higher school, they could enroll at a

21 university and they could enroll straight into the third year of

22 university. And maybe there was some exams that they had to take with the

23 permission of the dean and then they would continue with their regular

24 university education from the third year onwards. So that was the level

25 of the higher school or the high school. That was the policy also with

Page 6959

1 various military schools, also law schools, schools of economy. They

2 could apply to all those universities. This actually also applied

3 throughout the war.

4 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: What the Trial Chamber was really trying to get

5 from you is whether there is a difference between college and high school.

6 So I beg your pardon. Maybe what I should get you to do is look at the

7 caption, the subject matter, and translate it and see if in the course of

8 the translation there is a reference to college or high school, because we

9 were really trying to discover whether or not there was a distinction

10 between what you have now described as high school and how it fits in in

11 the scheme of training as opposed to what is there on the caption,

12 "college."

13 So could you please look at the subject matter in the document,

14 that caption, and if you would read it and then maybe it could be

15 translated and we can see where the -- the difference might be, if any.

16 Please go ahead, Mr. Witness.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

18 The subject here is: "Application for enrolment to the higher

19 school for internal affairs. Please find attached applications for

20 enrolment at the higher school for internal affairs in Zemun."

21 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Thank you so much. Thank you very much.

22 Mr. Milovancevic, please proceed.

23 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Q. Picking up on the questions asked of you by Honourable Judge

25 Nosworthy, let me draw your attention to the end of that sentence in the

Page 6960

1 introductory part: "Please find attached applications for the higher

2 school of internal affairs in Zemun with complete documentation for the

3 following members."

4 What does this word "members" mean? Who are the applicants for

5 this school? Can you explain to us based on this?

6 A. We see from this sentence and from the words "for the following

7 members," that the enumerated persons are already members of the organs of

8 internal affairs, they are employees.

9 Q. To put it briefly, does it mean that those applying to be enrolled

10 in the school are already employees, police officers?

11 A. Yes. They are already police officers who are already employed.

12 Q. Let me see if we had this document -- yes, this is already an

13 exhibit.

14 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we show on the monitor,

15 please, document -- or, rather, Exhibit 602.

16 Q. Before the document appears on our screens, to save time, we see

17 in the heading that it's a document of the Ministry of the Interior on the

18 Serbian Autonomous District of Krajina on the 26th November 1991. Let us

19 look in the heading, please, the top of the document, please, the left top

20 corner.

21 What I just said - and you can now see the document - is it indeed

22 the document of the MUP of SAO Krajina dated 26th November 1991?

23 A. Yes, I can see it. It's a document of the MUP, and the date is

24 indeed the 26th November 1991.

25 Q. Could you please read para 1. What does this document contain?

Page 6961

1 What are -- what is the large lettering in the centre?

2 A. This is an order.

3 Q. Thank you. Could you please read para 1.

4 MR. WHITING: Excuse me, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Whiting.

6 MR. WHITING: You know, I hate to interrupt because I don't want

7 to take up more time, but we're back again to the same problem. This is a

8 document that pertains to, from what I can see, a completely separate part

9 of the Krajina from the part where the witness was at the time. It

10 hasn't -- you know, he's about to start reading the document. I expect,

11 based on the questions that we've had so far today, that he's just going

12 to start commenting and giving his own interpretation and argument about

13 the document, but it hasn't been established that he knows anything about

14 this before he goes into it, and I think that that should be -- that that

15 foundation again should be laid before he just starts commenting on it.

16 It's not relevant if he doesn't know anything about it.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic.

18 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this objection is

19 completely baseless. Mr. Ari Kerkkanen does not come from Yugoslavia and

20 still he reviewed all the documents and testified that they were indeed

21 documents of the MUP. And now with somebody who as a policeman in the

22 SAO Krajina we are not allowed to review the document and discuss it. I

23 don't understand this kind of objection. The document relates to the work

24 of Mr. Martic, and the witness has said what the duties of the secretary

25 of the Ministry of the Interior were, beginning with the 1st of January,

Page 6962

1 1992, when the SUP of SAO Krajina was established. We heard already a

2 part of the answers, and now when I was about to move on I have to go

3 back. Our life is really complicated by this kind of objection.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction. The date was the 4th

5 of January, 1991.

6 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, just briefly, there's an obvious

7 difference between what -- between Mr. Kerkkanen's testimony and what the

8 counsel seeks to elicit from these witnesses. Mr. Kerkkanen simply

9 introduced the documents based on his document missions, did not comment

10 on them except to say what they said, and then they were introduced into

11 evidence.

12 This document is already into evidence. It's available to the

13 Trial Chamber. It's available to Defence counsel to argue about later.

14 What we don't have here is any basis, and I don't believe that Defence

15 counsel has supplied a basis in his response, for believing that this

16 witness can shed any additional light on the document, aside from what's

17 there before our eyes. And this is just a -- you know, a waste of time.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic, just like yesterday, I think the

19 question is lay a basis for what you want to say -- what do you want this

20 witness to say about this document. Because we can read what is on this

21 document and we don't need to have this witness interpret unless you have

22 laid the base -- basis for his interpretation that you want from him.

23 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence

24 believes that the witness has already provided a basis for this question.

25 He spoke in general terms about the work of the secretariat of internal

Page 6963

1 affairs, that is the MUP of SAO Krajina. And our intention is not for

2 the -- to have the witness comment upon this individual document, but to

3 use this document as a basis for telling us his position, whether this was

4 a common phenomenon or just an individual-only case. So we are interested

5 in the whole phenomenon and it's -- the frequency of its occurrence. And

6 we believe that the witness, in view of his line of work and his

7 experience, can give an answer that would be of assistance and -- to the

8 Trial Chamber.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: What phenomenon do you want to establish,

10 Mr. Milovancevic?

11 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] The general phenomenon, the

12 general need in the period when the SUP of SAO Krajina was being created

13 to establish police stations with the war and secession, the existing

14 order was totally broken up, although there were -- there was personnel,

15 there was -- there were police stations, there were secretariats. But the

16 legal system stopped functioning. Financing stopped. Military

17 occupation, a siege occurred. And now I want to elicit from the witness,

18 using this document as an illustration, to tell us whether this was a

19 lonely instance or something that occurred generally. That's all I wanted

20 to know.

21 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, but then -- but then that

22 explanation -- then it becomes a leading approach to this witness. He's

23 going to show the witness a phenomenon and then say: Well, did this occur

24 elsewhere? Why doesn't he just ask what occurred and what the witness

25 knows without using the document in that way. So either he lays a

Page 6964

1 foundation for it and then uses the document or he just asks the witness

2 what he knows. But to kind to confuse the two processes I don't think is

3 proper.

4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic, you say you want to find out

6 whether this kind of order was a general order given all over the country,

7 all over the SAO Krajina. Let me just understand what it is you say you

8 want to do with this document.

9 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Not really in that sense, not

10 literally. I think that I can use this -- it's not that I want to use

11 this document as something that applies to the entire SAO Krajina, but I

12 was going to ask whether this document speaks of a phenomenon that either

13 did or didn't exist in the territory of Krajina from what he knows and

14 from what he has experienced in various parts of that territory and in

15 various police stations. That was the purport of my question.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: That is all you want to establish? In that

17 instance, I'll let you ask the question. Ask the question.

18 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. Thank you, Your

19 Honour.

20 Q. Witness, could you please read to us para 1 of this order.

21 A. "In keeping with the verbal and written agreement with the

22 commander of the Banja Luka Corps, Lieutenant-General Nikola Ozelac

23 [phoen], to the effect that the affairs covered by civilian authorities in

24 war-time conditions in the area of Dubica and Kostajnica, pending the

25 establishment of police stations in Dubica, all these affairs relating to

Page 6965

1 public security in the local commune of Dubica will be performed -- will

2 be covered by the public security station of Kostajnica with the help of

3 the military police, the Banja Luka Corps, or more precisely the

4 3rd Detachment."

5 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at para 4.

6 Q. Can you read it for us?

7 A. "All persons wearing camouflage uniforms, while not being members

8 of the police of the SAO Krajina, while not having appropriate IDs of

9 authorised officers, or while not having been legally appointed by the

10 Ministry of the Interior of Krajina, are required to return all insignia

11 of the police and report to the military department of Kostajnica in order

12 to be included in the wartime formations of the JNA."

13 Q. What is the signatory?

14 A. Mr. Martic.

15 Q. With regard to this document, I want to ask you this about the

16 problem of establishing police stations in certain areas and restoring

17 order in terms of unauthorised wearing of police uniforms. Did this

18 problem exist only in the area of Kostajnica or did it exist elsewhere

19 as --

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic, please don't preach to the

21 witness before you ask your questions. Just ask your questions.

22 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah, and get to that question you said you wanted

24 to ask about this document.

25 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 6966

1 Q. The question is -- the question is, Witness: In 1991, did the MUP

2 of SAO Krajina set up police stations in areas where they did not exist

3 before and did the MUP of SAO Krajina have any problems with maintaining

4 law and order as far as unauthorised wearing of uniforms is concerned?

5 A. In the course of 1991, when there were combat operations all over

6 Krajina, the legal and territorial divisions between municipalities that

7 existed before were disrupted so that certain areas were left without any

8 police stations and were no longer covered by police personnel, and a kind

9 of vacuum emerged. It was not clear at the beginning which authorities

10 from which territory had jurisdiction in terms of police work. Many

11 problems occurred, and after a certain time smaller police stations,

12 police sections, and outposts were established, including larger public

13 security stations.

14 I remember the instance of Drnis, where after combat activities in

15 1991, all the personnel of the public security station of Drnis left the

16 area because they were all Croats and they were at that station after that

17 mutiny in 1991. So a year later they left the station, they left the town

18 and the entire area, and the area remained without any police. And all

19 the problems that existed before remained.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: I'm very sorry, but I thought, in essence, two

22 questions had been asked rolled up in one. The first relating to the MUP

23 of the SAO K and whether police stations were set up in areas where they

24 didn't exist before; and then a second question was concerning problems

25 with the wearing or unauthorised wearing of uniforms.

Page 6967

1 Has the question been -- well, maybe you could separate the

2 questions because that may well have been what confused the witness. And

3 if that was what you wanted to get from the witness, those two questions,

4 we could get him to be focussed in his answers. I remind him from

5 yesterday, less is more. And if he could just please answer directly.

6 Mr. Milovancevic, I think you will have to try and guide him because there

7 are time constraints also.

8 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, if I may, I hate to rise, but I think

9 that second question that the Chamber identified, which was, yes,

10 contained in Mr. Milovancevic's question, I think that was asked and

11 answered yesterday. I think that was addressed yesterday.

12 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: I thought it was addressed yesterday, but I

13 didn't know whether there was something more that he had wanted from the

14 witness that could assist us in the area. But I do agree with you, I

15 recall that that question was placed on the record yesterday and dealt

16 with.

17 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Sir, you've heard the suggestion by Her Honour Judge Nosworthy.

19 You've responded to the first part of the question. The second part of

20 the question related to the authorised or unauthorised wearing of the

21 uniform. You did talk about that yesterday. Can you tell us whether the

22 Ministry of Internal Affairs intervened if it found out about such

23 instances?

24 A. It did intervene --

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... just a short

Page 6968

1 answer: Yes, they did; or no, they didn't.

2 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

3 Q. Sir, could you please repeat your answer. Did you intervene or

4 not?

5 A. Yes, we would intervene.

6 Q. Thank you. Responding to one of my questions yesterday, you

7 explained that the Secretariats of Internal Affairs -- or, rather, public

8 security stations had to report back to superior. Do you remember that?

9 A. Yes, they were obliged to do that.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at a document

12 on the 65 ter list that bears the number 701.

13 Q. Before we see the document, so as not to lose any time, this is a

14 document with a title compulsory instruction --

15 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please slow down when reading.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are asked to slow down, Mr. Milovancevic, when

17 you're reading so that the interpreters can keep pace with you.

18 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Maybe we can look at the top of

19 the document, please.

20 Q. Do you see this instruction, whose title I read out? It's a long

21 title.

22 A. Yes, I see it. It's in front of me.

23 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] For a moment, can we look at

24 page 10 in the B/C/S of this document; in the English translation, that is

25 page 16.

Page 6969

1 Q. Can you please read item 32 and underneath that can you look at

2 the date of the document and see who drafted the document. Can you see

3 that on that page?

4 A. Yes, I can.

5 Q. Can you please read item 32, please.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: I have no 32 on my page. It is on page 16 of my

7 document.

8 MR. WHITING: I think it's page 15, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

10 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, have you found

11 it?

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated].

13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's -- sorry. It's at page 14. Thank you so

15 much.

16 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] In my translation, Your

17 Honours, page 14 ends with article 30 of the instruction. Article 32 is

18 on page 15 that I asked the witness to read. And then there is only one

19 line on page 16. So perhaps we have the different layout as far as the

20 translation is concerned.

21 Q. Sir, could you please read item 32.

22 A. "On the day this instruction goes into effect, the instruction on

23 reporting in public security tasks and other tasks of internal affairs

24 ceases to be in force. Number 11-021-10/74, dated the 3rd of June, 1974.

25 This compulsory instruction is dated the 20th of May, 1992."

Page 6970

1 Q. Can you please look at the very bottom of the document. We can't

2 see now who the signatory of the document is.

3 A. You can see that the document was signed by Minister Milan Martic.

4 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at page 1 of

5 this document, where you can see articles 2 and 3. The last two -- the

6 last three numbers in the B/C/S are 917, if that makes it easier.

7 Q. Can you please read article 2 of these instructions. What does it

8 say regarding the duty to inform?

9 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters note, we do not have the

10 translation of English in front of us.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Article 2 --

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: The interpreters say that don't have a translation

13 before them, so will you please slow down so they can interpret properly.

14 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Q. Witness, can you please read slowly.

16 A. "Item 2. Organs of internal affairs are duty-bound in a timely

17 manner and completely to report and inform on the state of security on

18 occurrences and events from the internal affairs sphere as well as on

19 measures and activities they are carrying out in accordance with their

20 legal authorisations and duties. Besides mutual reporting and informing,

21 organs of internal affairs are to regularly inform the Assemblies of

22 socio-political and regional communities and the leaderships of

23 socio-political organisations."

24 Q. Thank you. Are you aware that the internal affairs organs were

25 duty-bound to do this?

Page 6971

1 A. Yes. I am aware of that and we acted in accordance with these

2 instructions.

3 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at item 4 of

4 this document, please. This is page 2 in the B/C/S, and in the English

5 translation it's also page 2.

6 Q. Can you please read article 4.

7 A. "Information implies gathering data, notices, other information,

8 their selection and classification, as well as compiling daily and

9 extraordinary information on events and occurrences in order to inform the

10 authorised organs and leaderships about the state of security in a certain

11 area."

12 Q. Thank you. You have been shown a document before informing about

13 the situation in the Benkovac security station from the 10th to the 24th

14 of December, and it also mentions an incident that happened in that

15 period. Do you recall that document?

16 A. Yes, I do.

17 Q. This document, in your opinion, does it contain the information as

18 it is listed in item 4 here of this document?

19 A. The document that we looked at a day or two ago here was drafted

20 on the basis of this instruction and contains most of the information

21 required according to item 4.

22 Q. Thank you. Can you please read articles 6 and 7 of this

23 document. They are on the same page.

24 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Maybe we can scroll up a little

25 bit -- scroll down a little bit. On the English translation that is

Page 6972

1 page 3.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "The organisational unit of the

3 joint Secretariat for Internal Affairs, from here on joint secretariat, is

4 obliged to inform the organ of internal affairs on all events and

5 occurrences, as provided for with this instruction, immediately opinion

6 learning of the event or occurrence."

7 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Could you read item 7 which also refers to the organisational

9 unit?

10 A. "Organisational unit of the joint secretariat, on the basis of

11 gathered and received data and information, during a period of 24 hours,

12 until the beginning of work hours, drafts a daily report on the situation

13 and events in its region that are of importance for engaging workers and

14 for their activities and should inform the authorised officials in the

15 organisational unit and the joint secretariat."

16 Q. Thank you. You spent a certain amount of time at the public

17 security station in Benkovac. Did that station inform the higher

18 instance, the Secretariat for Internal Affairs in Knin?

19 A. Yes, we did report to them.

20 Q. Thank you. Thank you. Was that in accordance with this

21 instruction?

22 A. Yes, it was in accordance with this instruction.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] And now can we look at article

25 or item 9 of this document. It's page 3 in the B/C/S and in English it's

Page 6973

1 on page 4. Item 9 is at the very top of this page. Can we look at that,

2 please. Can you -- thank you.

3 Q. Sir, can you read item 9 of this document?

4 A. "All more important events, occurrences, and measures taken should

5 be urgently passed on by the internal affairs organ to the Ministry of

6 Internal Affairs."

7 Q. Thank you. You talked about the organs within the Ministry of

8 Internal Affairs starting from police stations, then public security

9 stations, SUPs, all the way up to the Ministry of Internal Affairs. Do

10 you have information whether this duty to report on all things happening

11 in the field was in force? Did that exist?

12 A. It was the duty to report on all undertaken actions and measures,

13 and I can say that we did fulfil this obligation. I'm not aware that

14 there were any organisational units that did not carry out their reporting

15 duties because this was something that they were obliged to do; and if

16 this was not done, then the person in charge would have to deal with that

17 immediately in order to resolve that matter.

18 Q. At the beginning when we first looked at this document you read

19 out item 32, which states that on the day that this instruction goes into

20 effect, the instruction on reporting is no longer in effect. This is the

21 previous instruction that was in force in the old Yugoslavia, which went

22 into effect in 1974. Do you remember whether this instruction contained

23 some provisions, such as this one that relate to reporting?

24 A. I think that the instruction from 1974 also contained such

25 provisions and that most of this material is practically identical, it's

Page 6974

1 similar.

2 Q. Can you tell us what, in your opinion, was the objective of this

3 instruction. What is the sense, what is the purpose of its existence?

4 A. In my opinion, this instruction aims to ensure that the leadership

5 of higher or larger organisational units is informed about the situation

6 in the field, which measures were being taken, so that the superior organs

7 can monitor events and the activities and conduct of internal affairs

8 staff out in the field. So the leadership was supervising what the

9 subordinates were doing.

10 Q. And respecting this instruction, did that contribute to

11 maintaining law and order or not? What do you think?

12 A. The existence of this instruction did improve the work of internal

13 affairs organs and contributed to better control over lower-ranking

14 stations. Thus, it improved the work of all sectors of internal affairs

15 and in all assignments.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] May I tender this document into

18 evidence?

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

20 please be given an exhibit number?

21 Mr. Milovancevic, while we are at this point, can I ask you how

22 much longer are you going to be? You estimated seven hours for this

23 witness, and you have gone far beyond seven hours.

24 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, maybe another 15

25 minutes. I just have another two documents to go through. I'm very close

Page 6975

1 to the end, and I'll try to use my time as efficiently as possible.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: And we must talk about what you plan to do because

3 you have taken the entire seven hours alone and more, which seven hours we

4 had cut down to four.

5 MR. WHITING: I think actually we're about at ten hours now, over

6 ten hours of direct examination.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: We are over ten hours.

8 You may proceed, Mr. Milovancevic.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document will become exhibit

10 number 893.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.

12 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. In response to the Defence's questions you said the police wore

14 uniforms. Did they also wear insignia?

15 A. Yes. They were required to wear emblems of rank and position on

16 their uniforms.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at a Prosecution

19 document from the 65 ter list number 748. This document is

20 entitled "rules of procedure concerning emblems of rank, position, and the

21 uniforms of authorised officers of the organs of internal affairs."

22 Q. Do you see this title?

23 A. Yes, I do.

24 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please turn to page 7

25 in B/C/S, and that would be page 10 in English, just to see when this

Page 6976

1 document originated.

2 [Microphone not activated].

3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

4 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry about this.

5 Q. You can see the date and the author.

6 A. This document was created on the 22nd of June, 1993, and the

7 author is Minister Milan Martic.

8 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now go back to the front

9 page and then look at page 2, which is also 2 in English. Article 2 is at

10 the very bottom of this page. Can we look at the bottom of this first

11 page? That's it.

12 Q. In article 2 it is stipulated that for certain positions or

13 titles, certain insignia are prescribed. Some of them are described on

14 this page and others on page 2 in B/C/S.

15 To save time, I will put to you the various titles that police

16 officers had in SAO Krajina. One of them is junior policeman, then

17 policeman of first class, senior policeman, and all the way to independent

18 inspector, senior inspector, senior inspector first class, and chief

19 inspector. I want to ask you: Are you aware that these titles existed in

20 the Ministry of the Interior? Of course I mean the Republic of Serbian

21 Krajina.

22 A. These titles did exist in the Ministry of the Interior of the

23 Serbian Krajina, but the titles from junior police officers to the senior

24 officer first class are those of authorised officers with secondary

25 education, whereas the ones above senior inspector first class up to the

Page 6977

1 chief inspector required a degree, a university degree.

2 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now move on to page 4 in

3 B/C/S, which is 7 in English.

4 Q. Here under the subheading "uniform" we see article 6 describing

5 the summer uniform for the MUP of Serbian Krajina, and it says: "Cap,

6 beret, shirt, trousers with belt, and light shirt."

7 It goes on to say that there is an Nemanjic coat of arms on the

8 beret and a wind-breaker, as well as the emblem or patch with the

9 lettering "Milicija Krajina," police of Krajina, for the left sleeve. It

10 says that the camouflage uniform is of a dark colour, and it says: "When

11 performing special assignments or missions, authorised officers may use

12 fatigues as a uniform of a dark blue camouflage design."

13 Are you aware that the camouflage uniform for the police of

14 Krajina was precisely like this?

15 A. Yes, I am aware of that.

16 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Let us look at page 6 of this

17 document in B/C/S; in English it would be page 9 and 10.

18 Q. Those are transitional and final provisions. It says: "Emblems

19 of title and rank worn by authorised officers in keeping with the

20 descriptions above shall be replaced with emblems of title and rank, as

21 stipulated in these rules of procedure."

22 My question is: Until the entry into force of these rules, did

23 there exist another document that stipulated the uniforms, the titles, and

24 rank insignia for members of the MUP of Krajina?

25 A. Yes. Before we used to have a set of rules regulating these

Page 6978

1 matters and we complied with it.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Let us look at our last

4 document and that will be the end of your examination-in-chief. It's

5 Exhibit 511. The title of the document --

6 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, if I just may be of assistance. I

7 don't believe that that last document was admitted into evidence, and we

8 would certainly consent to it being admitted into evidence.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic.

10 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to thank my

11 learned friend. I thought it was already an exhibit and it isn't. May I

12 tender it now?

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. The document is admitted into

14 evidence. May it please be given an exhibit number.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will become exhibit number 894.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.

17 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. You now see a Prosecution document bearing the title "list of

19 staff members of the SUP of Knin who entered into employment for an

20 indefinite period of time from 1990 to date."

21 To find our way more easily through this document, documents are

22 arranged by months, but in inverse order starting from December 1992 down

23 to 1990. It's perhaps not the best kind of order, but the document could

24 not be shown differently than in the form in which we received it?

25 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at page 5198. The

Page 6979

1 first page is 5197, the following one is 5198, and in English it's page 2.

2 Can we just see the middle of this text. Here. Thank you. That's it.

3 Q. Now, above this set of three names we see some numbers. Can you

4 read that for us, please, Witness. Does it say 11/92 and 12/92?

5 A. Yes, I can see 11/92 and 12/92.

6 Q. Below each of these there is a set of names, and next to each name

7 there is a date. Let me remind you this is a list of employees who were

8 admitted into employment, and that must be the date when they were

9 employed. In the first group, all the dates were from November 1992, and

10 in the second set all the dates were from December 1992.

11 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at page 5216.

12 In English it's page 26.

13 MR. WHITING: Just -- I think this shouldn't be broadcast. I

14 don't know if it's being broadcast by the booth, but the document should

15 not by broadcast.

16 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. Thank you. Should

17 we move into private session?

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Maybe we should do that after the break, don't you

19 think?

20 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] We'll be done in five minutes,

21 Your Honour. Let us take the break now and after the break I'll finish.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

23 We'll take the break and come back at quarter to 11.00.

24 Court adjourned.

25 --- Recess taken at 10.14 a.m.

Page 6980

1 --- On resuming at 10.46 a.m.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Milovancevic.

3 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would kindly ask

4 you to move into private session for a moment because of the document I'm

5 intending to present.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.

7 [Private session]

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 [Open session]

23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

25 Yes, Mr. Milovancevic.

Page 6981

1 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. With regard to the document we've just seen, can you tell us

3 whether the list refers to the period when you transferred to the public

4 security station in Knin?

5 A. Yes, that period as well.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at page 5212

8 in B/C/S. That is a list of employees who signed employment contracts

9 between the 1st of January, 1991 until the 31st of December, 1991. In

10 English it's 19 to 25, beginning with page 19 until 25.

11 Q. You see before you a list of employees whose employment contracts

12 date back to January, the 1st of January, 1991?

13 A. Yes, I see it.

14 Q. It has several pages.

15 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we see the bottom of the

16 page to see how many people there are on the list? Thank you.

17 Can we turn the page now, see the next page in B/C/S. This page

18 is all right as well. We are now on page 4 of the document. Let us see

19 the bottom of the page to see how many employees are concerned.

20 Q. What is the last number you see on the list?

21 A. 147.

22 Q. Can you tell us the name of the person under 147?

23 A. Petar Veselinovic.

24 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in English this is

25 on page 21 because the pages are not exactly in the proper order. That's

Page 6982

1 the way they were typed. So on page 21 you should be able to see the end

2 of this document showing that the last number is 147.

3 Have you found it, Your Honours? I hope so.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ...

5 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

6 Q. According to this document, how many people began working full

7 time on -- in January 1991?

8 A. In January 1991, 147 workers started to work for an indefinite

9 period of time.

10 Q. Thank you. In relation to the previous composition of the police

11 station, is this a large increase?

12 A. This number, yes, would constitute an increase.

13 Q. Can you tell us why such a large number of people came to the

14 public security station in Knin. Do you have any information about that?

15 Were these policemen?

16 A. Many people came to the Knin SUP. They were all authorised

17 officials from towns on the Croatian coast or from Zagreb or from other

18 towns where the Krajina authorities were not in charge, and according to

19 what they said they could no longer live there and work there so they

20 came --

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just tell us why, not where they came from. We

22 haven't got much time now.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They came because they felt that

24 they could no longer work in those towns and live there. They were in

25 danger. They were harassed, so they crossed into the RSK.

Page 6983

1 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Thank you. And the last question that I'm going to put to you,

3 Witness, is the following. You were a member of the Ministry of the

4 Internal Affairs in the 1990-1995 period when the RSK was in existence.

5 In that period of time, did you manage to see any kind of parallel system

6 of authority which would be in competition with yours and which threatened

7 you? Can you please answer with yes or no?

8 A. No, I didn't notice anything like that.

9 Q. Thank you very much.

10 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence has

11 no further questions.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

13 Mr. Whiting.

14 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honours. I believe we're in private

15 session still, and we can go into public session.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: We are in public session.

17 MR. WHITING: Oh, we are in public session. Okay.

18 Cross-examination by Mr. Whiting:

19 Q. Good morning, sir.

20 A. Good morning, Mr. Prosecutor.

21 Q. Let me introduce myself. My name is Alex Whiting. You obviously

22 have figured out in the days that you've been here that I'm one of the

23 Prosecutors in the case.

24 I hope you don't mind me saying that I notice that sometimes you

25 give rather lengthy answers, and I'm going to ask when -- in response to

Page 6984

1 my questions that you try, please, very much to focus on the question that

2 I'm asking and answer only the question that I'm asking. Do you

3 understand?

4 A. Yes, I understand. But in order to clarify the situation for all

5 of us, in order to fulfil the goal of my testimony here, sometimes I

6 believe that I need to give a slightly more -- broader answer.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: If we need a broader answer, the Prosecutor will

8 ask for a broader answer. Just answer the question that he asks and stop

9 there.


11 Q. And just want to warn you, I won't be shy about interrupting you.

12 Now, sir, you testified on the very first day that you were here

13 that 90 per cent of the inhabitants of the Knin municipality were Serbs

14 and that the head of the police in that area would usually be a Serb and

15 his deputy would be a Croat. Do you remember that testimony?

16 A. Yes, I remember.

17 Q. And I take it from that, from what you testified to, that there's

18 a connection between those two facts. The -- a Serb was designated as the

19 chief of the -- of the police in the Knin municipality because the

20 municipality was comprised of 90 per cent Serbs. Isn't that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Now, you also testified that from what you knew that it is

23 certain - and you used the word "certain" - that there were more Croats on

24 the police force than Serbs. That's at 6724. Do you remember that

25 testimony, sir?

Page 6985

1 A. Sir, the question is not clear to me that there were more Croats

2 than Serbs. I either made a slip of the tongue or there's a mistake in

3 the transcript. I said that at that time there were more Serbs than

4 Croats at the Knin police station.

5 Q. I'm sorry. There was a confusion there. I'm not talking about

6 the Knin police station; I'm talking about in all of Croatia. You were

7 answering a question about the composition of the police in all of

8 Croatia, and you testified that you were certain that there were more

9 Croat policemen in Croatia than Serb policemen. Do you remember that

10 testimony?

11 A. Yes, I remember. Now it's clear that you meant the whole of

12 Croatia, yes.

13 Q. And as you sit here today, you are certain of that fact. Correct?

14 A. I think that that's how it was, yes.

15 Q. No, sir. I didn't ask you if you were -- think that's how it was.

16 I asked you are you were certain of that fact as you sit here today. You

17 used that word in direct examination. Are you certain of that fact?

18 A. Yes, I'm certain.

19 Q. In fact, isn't it true that Serbs made up at least 60 per cent of

20 the police force in Croatia at that time? Isn't that the fact, sir?

21 A. I am not aware of that fact, no.

22 Q. Well, I'm going to show you a segment of an interview with the

23 accused, Milan Martic, which he gave when he was president of the RSK in

24 October of 1994. It's in evidence as Exhibit 497.

25 MR. WHITING: And I'm going to ask that we -- is there -- I'm

Page 6986

1 going to ask that we switch over to the Sanction to watch this clip.

2 [Videotape played]


4 Q. Sir, having seen now Mr. Martic talking about this subject, do you

5 accept that you are wrong and that in fact Serbs made up 60 per cent of

6 the police force in Croatia?

7 A. I don't know where Mr. Martic got this information from, but if

8 you have the official information about percentage of 60 -- 60 per cent of

9 Serbs in the MUP at that time in Croatia, I will accept it.

10 Q. That wasn't my question, sir. My question is: Now that you've

11 seen Mr. Martic speak about it, are you still certain about what you

12 testified about?

13 A. Yes, I would stand by what I said, yes.

14 Q. Well, let's look at another document. I'm going to show you a

15 report from Human Rights Watch which reported the figures from the

16 Croatian government. And it is --

17 MR. WHITING: If it could be called up on the e-court. It's

18 00276596. I hope that's sufficient to -- I don't believe we have a -- a

19 translation in B/C/S of this document, but I'm just going to rely on a

20 sentence here. If we could go to page 23 of the document. And if we

21 could go to the top of the page, please.

22 Q. In that first full paragraph, the third sentence says, and I'll

23 just read it slowly. It says: "According to the Croatian Ministry of the

24 Interior, Serbs accounted for approximately 75 per cent of the Croatian

25 police force, despite the fact that they comprised only 11.5 per cent of

Page 6987

1 the republic's population."

2 Okay, now that you've seen Mr. Martic's view of the figures and

3 you've seen a report about the Croatian Ministry of Interior's view, do

4 you question your own information, that the Croats made -- were -- there

5 were more Croats in the police department -- in the police in Croatia?

6 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think that it

7 would be useful also if the Prosecutor were to tell the witness the date

8 of the report itself and to which period this information relates to.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: I thought this document relates to the period

10 during the communist era. It says: "During the communist era a vast

11 majority of the police officers in Croatia were Serbian." I don't know --

12 MR. WHITING: Well, to be fair, I didn't read that sentence to the

13 witness so he couldn't be aware of that. But yes, the document is dated

14 September 1991, but this is about the communist era, presumably 1990 and

15 before.

16 Q. Now that you have that information, sir, do you think that perhaps

17 you were wrong in -- in your own information?

18 A. When I see this document it's not clear to me -- you say that it

19 refers to the communist period, that is also 1946, 1950, and 1990. I was

20 talking about 1990, the beginning of the events in the Knin Krajina, and

21 then knowing the situation at the place where I worked, which was a large

22 body. And if I were to use that as a sample in order to analyse the

23 entire composition in Croatia, then --

24 Q. Sir, I'm going to interrupt you for a moment. I'm sorry. The

25 document I've shown you is not about 1946/1950. This is a document about

Page 6988

1 the events in Croatia in 1990/1991. So I put to you that the figure there

2 of 75 per cent is pertaining to 1990 and before.

3 Now, does the information that I have put to you cause you in any

4 way to question your own information about whether Croats or Serbs were

5 the majority in the police in Croatia, or are you still, having seen all

6 this, certain about what you testified about?

7 A. This report that is in English, and seeing that it was comprised

8 by Slavko Degoricija and Milan Brezak, this report is something that I do

9 not consider --

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Witness, please answer the question. We don't need

11 your comment on this report. Just say whether you stand by your answer or

12 you don't stand by your answer. That's -- the question is simple and

13 straightforward.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I stand by my answer.


16 Q. Sir, given Mr. Martic's position within the SAO Krajina police and

17 the RSK, don't you think that he would have better information on these

18 topics than you did, or that you do?

19 A. I think that he could not have had better information, if we're

20 looking at 1990. I had better information because I was in touch with the

21 top leadership of the ministry of the Republic of Croatia at the time.

22 Q. So are you --

23 MR. WHITING: Yes?

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: What's the date of that clip that we saw a couple

25 of minutes ago?

Page 6989

1 MR. WHITING: It's -- the interview was given on October of 1994.

2 Q. Sir, so are you saying then that when you gave the figure of --

3 that Croats were -- there were more Croats in the police within Croatia

4 than Serbs, that you were relying on figures provided by the Ministry of

5 the Interior of the Republic of Croatia at the time? Is that what I

6 understand from your last answer?

7 A. No. They didn't provide that data. This was confidential

8 information. I concluded that from --

9 Q. Yeah, please, tell me how it is you concluded that information.

10 What are you basing it on?

11 A. My information is based on my work in years before that, on many

12 years that I worked at a certain body in Croatia, and also on the basis of

13 analysis during my school days when we were undergoing training, based on

14 the structure of my class and similar classes while I was attending police

15 training school in Zagreb.

16 Q. So in other words, you extrapolated based on your classes how many

17 Croats versus how many Serbs were in the Croatian police department?

18 That's your testimony?

19 A. One of the indicators at the time was that we were completing our

20 education together, and I knew who was who. We were in a pretty equal

21 situation at the time.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're going to have to learn to answer the

23 question.

24 The question to you is: Did you extrapolate that from your

25 classes on how many Croats versus how many Serbs there were in the

Page 6990

1 Croatian police department? The answer to that question is either a yes

2 or a no.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My answer is yes.


5 Q. And, sir, based on that personal analysis derived from your

6 classes, you told this Trial Chamber that you were certain of your

7 information and you stand by that information now?

8 A. Yes.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: I just want to find out something.

10 When -- what year were you told that in your class?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I attended the school in Zagreb from

12 1979 to -- from 1977 to 1979.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: The question is: In what year were you told that?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand. What was I

15 told?

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: You were going to school from 1977 to 1979. When

17 you got this information about the numbers of police in the force, was it

18 in 1977, in 1978, in 1979, in any one of those three years? Which one?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I was attending school, there

20 were other students attending with me. So on the basis of who was what,

21 who belonged to which ethnic group, I knew more or less how many Serbs

22 there were, how many Croats were. On the basis of that experience as well

23 as on the basis of my work experience, I conclude that -- or I concluded

24 that the number of Serbs and Croats working in the MUP was more or less

25 equal.

Page 6991

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's your answer now?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

3 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Sir, during 1990 and 1991 you accept, do you not, that the

5 Croatian government was expanding the police force in Croatia?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You testified that in your view the security situation had not

8 deteriorated to the extent that new police were required, but you also

9 testified several times that as early as 1990 there were increased

10 tensions. You talked about major disorder in Benkovac that occurred in

11 March of 1990. You talked about a rally in Split that caused great

12 anxiety. Given those tensions and difficulties that were arising, isn't

13 it unsurprising that Croatia was expanding its police force?

14 A. The number of the police was regularly changing. Constantly new

15 people were joining the force. But such a change in numbers and including

16 more Croats in the police force, was something that was hard to

17 understand. And in my opinion, it was unjustified.

18 Q. Even given the tensions and disorders that you -- you yourself

19 testified about, and you talked about your own position that you assumed

20 in July 1990, that it carried with it a lot of responsibility and that

21 there was a lot of tension in the area. Even given all that testimony

22 that you have provided to this Trial Chamber, you still maintain that it

23 was hard to understand that Croatia would expand its police force?

24 A. Sir, at the time, if there was a need to employ new workers, this

25 was not something that called for very high numbers, but this was not

Page 6992

1 something that should have been done in the way that the Croatian MUP was

2 doing it, the way it was engaging new staff.

3 Q. Okay. So now your answer is that new staff was justified but not

4 so many and not in the way that it was done. Is that now your testimony?

5 A. Yes.

6 MR. WHITING: Could we go into private session, please, Your

7 Honour?

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.

9 [Private session]

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 6993

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 [Open session]

5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.

7 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. Sir, in the position that you assumed in July 1990, it's fair to

9 say, isn't it, that you were trusted by your superiors. Isn't that

10 correct?

11 A. That is correct, yes.

12 Q. However, you testified on several occasions that you were

13 distrusted by some citizens of Knin because even though you were a Serb

14 they thought that you had been brought to Knin on behalf of the Croatian

15 authorities and that you were in fact a spy?

16 A. Yes, that is correct.

17 Q. So it's fair to say that you were distrusted simply because you

18 were associated in these people's minds with the Croatian authorities.

19 Isn't that right?

20 A. That's right, yes.

21 Q. In fact -- and I'm going to take a brief diversion here. You

22 testified that you were called an Ustasha simply because you had tried to

23 calm a crowd on August 17th, 1990 that had gathered in anger over Martic's

24 suspension. Isn't that right?

25 A. Sir, if I were to answer just with yes or no, then I will not

Page 6994

1 really be able to provide the true answers because to me it seems more to

2 be a leading question. Because if you permit me, Your Honours, to at

3 least explain a little bit --

4 Q. Please, I'm going to interrupt you, sir, because -- and I

5 understand that you're -- you may not be familiar with the system, but I

6 get to ask leading questions. That's my job in these proceedings. It's

7 different from when Defence counsel's asking you questions. So, yes, it's

8 a leading question.

9 Now, if you could just yes or no, you were called -- and I can

10 read your testimony if you like, and then if you want to provide a brief

11 explanation I'll permit you to do that. But yes or no, you were called an

12 Ustasha, weren't you, in August of 1990 by the crowd?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Do you have an explanation? Briefly, please.

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 6995

1 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, if I may, I think it would be prudent

2 to redact that last answer.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.


5 Q. Sir, if I can remind you, please, to take care, as best you can,

6 not to refer to your position.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: May that answer, starting at page 44, lines 12

8 to 22, please be deleted. Thank you.


10 Q. Now, sir, I wasn't really asking about that. What I was asking

11 about is the -- what I was focussing in on is the fact that you were

12 called an Ustasha. Now, you were not an Ustasha, were you?

13 A. No, I was not, not then and not now.

14 Q. And you would agree with me, I take it, that that term "Ustasha"

15 is a pretty -- was a pretty inflammatory term at the time. You would

16 agree with me, right?

17 A. Yes, I agree completely.

18 Q. And you would agree with me also that based on your personal

19 experience that this term was obviously used to describe people who were

20 not in fact Ustashas. Isn't that correct?

21 A. That's correct too.

22 Q. And you would agree with me that when Serb leaders described the

23 Croatian government again and again and again as an Ustasha government,

24 that that made the Serb people afraid, didn't it?

25 A. Not quite.

Page 6996

1 Q. Well, why not?

2 A. I remember that time when Mr. Raskovic made public appearances and

3 he divided in his speeches the Croat people into good Croats and into bad

4 Croats, whom he called Ustashas.

5 Q. Let's go back to my question, sir. When the leaders, the Serb

6 leaders, in the Krajina, Mr. Raskovic, Mr. Babic, Mr. Martic, when they

7 described the government of Croatia as an Ustasha government, that made

8 Serbs afraid, didn't it?

9 A. I am not aware of their motivation for calling the Croatian

10 government --

11 Q. I'm going to interrupt you, sir. I didn't ask you about the

12 motivation. I did not ask you anything about the motivation. I asked you

13 about the effect that it had on the Serbian people. They're being told by

14 their leaders that the government of Croatia is an Ustasha government.

15 That made them afraid, didn't it?

16 A. Yes, that caused fear.

17 Q. Now, earlier in your testimony you said -- you testified that

18 before the first multi-party elections in 1990 that -- and I'm going to

19 quote from your testimony here. You said: "All the parties that were

20 founded were, for the most part, nationalist parties and their rallies

21 were -- had a sort of nationalist tone. All of them propagated being

22 freed or liberated from something."

23 And that's at 6719.

24 Now, you talked -- you then went on to talk about the HDZ, but

25 that was also true of the principal party on the Serb side, the SDS,

Page 6997

1 wasn't it? It was also a nationalist party; wouldn't you agree with that,

2 sir?

3 A. I would agree with it.

4 Q. Sir, let's get back to the situation in Knin in July of 1990, and

5 you've told us that you were distrusted by some of the people in Knin and

6 you gave an explanation for why that was. Now, isn't it a fact that you

7 were also distrusted by -- for some of the same reasons by some of the

8 Serb officers within the police in Knin? Isn't that also true, sir?

9 A. That's possible, although we never discussed it.

10 Q. No, I'm not asking if it's possible. You know it to be true,

11 don't you, sir?

12 A. It's possible. I don't know. I never discussed it. I never

13 discussed whether anybody trusted me or not.

14 Q. Well, let's -- let's look at a prior statement that you made to

15 the OTP.

16 MR. WHITING: And I'd ask the assistance of the usher to provide

17 this statement to the witness and to the Trial Chamber. I'm going to use

18 it in hard copy. I think it's much easier than trying to put it on the

19 e-court.

20 Q. Sir, do you have a copy of this statement in your own language

21 before you?

22 A. Yes, I do.

23 Q. I'm going to ask you -- do you also have the English version?

24 A. Yes, I do.

25 Q. Could you look, please, at page 10 of the English version. There

Page 6998

1 is a --

2 MR. WHITING: I could just have a moment.

3 Q. Sir, because you have protective measures, we redacted your -- the

4 name on the last page. So I'm going to have to give you -- for this

5 purpose, I'm going to have to give you an unredacted version.

6 MR. WHITING: And if I could again have the assistance of the

7 usher.

8 Q. Now, sir, if you could look at the last page, page 10 of the

9 English, it's called "witness acknowledgement." And in English it

10 says: "This statement has been read over to me in the Serbian language

11 and is true to the best of my knowledge and recollection."

12 And is that your signature there? And don't say the name, but is

13 that your signature there dated 18 September 2000?

14 A. Yes, yes.

15 Q. Now, I'd like to look --

16 MR. WHITING: Well, we'll have to go into private session for this

17 purpose, please, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.

19 [Private session]

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 6999











11 Page 6999 redacted. Private session.















Page 7000

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 [Open session]

13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.


16 Q. And, sir, isn't it fair to say that the distrust also went the

17 other way. You did not completely trust those policemen in Knin who had

18 signed the petition in July of 1990, did you?

19 A. I don't know. I don't know what you mean when you say I didn't

20 trust them. My attitude to them was the same as to all other employees of

21 the station, and you could see that that was my approach from the way I

22 gave them assignments.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Stay on the question. You should know whether you

24 did or did not distrust them, irrespective of what your attitude towards

25 them may have been. Just answer the question. Did you or did you not

Page 7001

1 distrust some of them?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To be precise, I did not have

3 absolute trust in anybody. I was cautious with every employee of the Knin

4 SUP when I arrived.


6 Q. But, sir --

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Why then does it take you several questions before

8 you answer? Why don't you answer these questions the first time they're

9 asked honestly? You said: "To be precise, I did not have absolute

10 trust ..." Why do you become precise only after several questions?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, when the honourable

12 Prosecutor asks me a question, he usually seeks a yes or no answer. But

13 these matters are not black and white.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: The question is a very straightforward one. The

15 question had been: You did not trust some of the police that had signed

16 the petition.

17 And your answer was: I don't know what you mean.

18 What is the difficulty in that question?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's difficult because the question

20 was phrased: You did not trust some of them. I said that I did not trust

21 anybody, at least not absolutely, and I was very cautious in my position.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Then the first time you should have said: In fact,

23 I mistrusted all of them. But to say: I don't know what you mean, what

24 is it that you didn't understand in that question?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not understand the reference

Page 7002

1 to "some of them." Who was meant? There was several different groups.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Nobody explained to you what "some of them" meant.

3 How did you then finally come to say: To be precise, I did not trust all

4 of them?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't know anyone at that Knin

6 police station when I arrived, and some problems had begun before with

7 assigning of --

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're not answering my question. My question is

9 simply: Nobody explained to you what the word "some" means. How then do

10 you finally come to say: No, actually, it's not some, it's all of them?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because I mistrusted everyone in

12 that police station.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're not answering my question. My question is:

14 How then do you understand the word "some" without it being explained to

15 you? To be able to know that in fact it is not some that you mistrusted

16 but all.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, when the Prosecutor

18 asked me: Isn't it true that you didn't trust some people, I didn't

19 understand what kind of trust he meant, whether it concerned my job or

20 some parts of my job. But the truth is I didn't trust anyone, at least

21 not absolutely.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: He didn't ask -- he didn't say "some people," he

23 said "some members of the police in Knin" and specified them specifically,

24 those who signed the petition. You knew exactly what he was talking

25 about, didn't you?

Page 7003

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not understand him at that

2 moment --

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Which moment did you understand him?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Later, when I started giving a

5 broader answer and when we started narrowing things down and clarifying,

6 then I understood.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Which broader answer did you give that made you

8 understand and where was the narrowing?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I started talking about the

10 time when I arrived, the situation I found there at the station, the

11 earlier --

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... he's just

13 asked you about the mistrust of the police who signed the petition, and

14 since then he hasn't talked about the time when you arrived.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I really don't know

16 what to say anymore. What do you want me to say?

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, you say what you want to say, but please

18 answer my questions. My question to you from the beginning which caused

19 this whole discussion between you and I was -- or in fact it was a

20 statement -- no, it was a question: Why does it take you several

21 questions to answer a question? Why don't you answer questions directly.

22 That was my question. And you gave all these sorts of explanations. Now

23 you say you don't know what explanations to give. I guess you also don't

24 know what explanations you have been giving me. Am I right?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, when I wish to give a

Page 7004

1 precise answer, I also provide a broader context so that you can

2 understand the situation. From now on, I will give shorter and narrower

3 answers, if you want me to.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's what we've been asking you to do. And just

5 answer questions and don't try to hide by saying you don't understand

6 words that are obviously known to you. You do know what the word "some"

7 means, don't you?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do --

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: You do know what "some" means, don't you? The

10 answer is either yes or no. You said you were going to give short

11 answers. Give me a short answer.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

14 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Q. Now, sir, you've now testified that you had some distrust of all

16 the members of the police department, but that's not true, is it? You

17 told us yourself that when you received the order from Sibenik to seize

18 the reserve weapons of Knin, that you asked the assistance of several of

19 the employees who had not signed the petition. That appears at 6759.

20 Do you remember that testimony, sir?

21 A. I do.

22 Q. And that is in distinction -- that was different from other --

23 other assignments. For example, the -- you had testified about the

24 assignment at Srb in July of 1990, and there you said that you picked --

25 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my learned friend

Page 7005

1 from the Prosecution quoted a part of the witness's statement, and I don't

2 know if he quoted it very precisely. The witness spoke about matching one

3 employee who did sign that petition with another who didn't, sending them

4 to one and the same assignment. And he also said that he treated all his

5 underlings equally. Could my learned friend show us exactly that passage

6 in the statement that shows that he was looking precisely for an employee

7 who had not signed the petition?

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Whiting.

9 MR. WHITING: I cited it in my question. It's at 6759. And when

10 I read the question, I was quoting from the testimony of the witness, and

11 the witness in fact confirmed that this was his testimony.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic, do you still have a question --

13 an objection?

14 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. Thank you.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

16 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. Now, that was different -- you did it different -- you did things

18 differently with that assignment than with previous assignments; for

19 example, the assignment regarding the Serb National Council in Srb.

20 There, as I think Defence counsel was referring to, you picked half

21 individuals who had signed the petition and half who had not. Isn't that

22 correct?

23 MR. WHITING: I'm sorry, I didn't get an answer. Did --

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: He's waiting for the translation maybe.


Page 7006

1 Q. Have you -- sir, did you hear the question? Did you understand

2 the question?

3 The question is that on previous assignments you did it

4 differently. You assigned members who had signed the petition along with

5 members who had not signed the petition. Isn't that right?

6 A. Your Honours, the sound of interpretation I was getting was

7 interrupted and then I got a repeated question. Could the Prosecutor give

8 me the question again briefly because I want to give a precise answer.

9 Q. That's fine, and it's --

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Maybe just quote that 67 and deal with that before

11 you deal with the -- of removing that --

12 MR. WHITING: Yes, that's fine, Your Honour.

13 Q. Let's go back to the beginning of this line of questioning, and

14 it's at 6759 of the transcript, that when you received the order from

15 Sibenik to seize the reserve weapons of Knin you asked "the assistance of

16 several of the employees who had not signed that petition back then."

17 Do you remember that testimony?

18 A. I remember that part of my testimony. Let me just say that on

19 that occasion I asked the assistance of one man and only in accordance

20 with the orders and recommendation of the command.

21 Q. Sir, I'm going to remind you of the instruction from the Trial

22 Chamber. Please just answer the question -- you fully answered that

23 question when you said: "I remember that part of my testimony," and the

24 explanation was unnecessary to respond to the question, okay? And your

25 job as a witness here is simply to respond to the questions, not to argue

Page 7007

1 or try to provide context. Just please respond to the questions.

2 Now, the approach that you described there at -- relying on the

3 assistance of -- and you said: "Several of the employees who had not

4 signed the petition back then," that was different from the approach that

5 you had taken on prior occasions when in fact you used half people who had

6 signed the petition and half people who had not signed the petition.

7 Correct?

8 A. Yes, that's correct.

9 Q. And the reason you took a different approach in August of 1990

10 with respect to seizing the weapons from Knin is that for that assignment

11 you could not fully trust those members of the police who had signed the

12 petition. Isn't that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You also testified that there was a petition circulating around

15 Knin with the names of the eight policemen who did not sign the petition.

16 Do you remember that testimony? It's at 6741.

17 A. I remember, yes.

18 Q. And that petition was designed, was it not, to put pressure on

19 those policemen to sign the petition, wasn't it?

20 A. Probably.

21 Q. In fact, you told us that -- and this is at 6801, that these

22 officers nearly got killed, nearly got lynched, in the days after

23 August 17th, and that they had to escape out of the back-door of the

24 police station. Isn't that right? Do you remember that testimony?

25 A. I remember not all eight of them were at the station. There was

Page 7008

1 some of them, yes, that is correct, and it's correct that they had to

2 escape.

3 Q. Now, sir, given what we have just been talking about, about the

4 fact that there were members of the police in Knin who did not trust you

5 and that you did not completely trust the members of the police department

6 yourself, would you accept the possibility that you were not informed

7 about everything that was going on in the police department at that time?

8 A. It's possible. I can't definitely say that it was so, but it's

9 possible.

10 Q. So you accept the -- that possibility?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did you learn, for example, when you arrived in July of 1990 that

13 Milan Martic had been secretly preparing the Serb policemen in Knin in

14 fight the Croatian authorities from as early as January or February of

15 1990? Did you learn that fact when you arrived or were you not informed

16 of that fact?

17 A. I wasn't informed, and this is the first time that I am hearing

18 that statement.

19 Q. I'm going to play for you another clip from the interview that

20 Mr. Martic gave in October of 1994, and again this was -- he gave this

21 interview while he was president of the RSK. This is in evidence as

22 Exhibit 497.

23 MR. WHITING: And if we could switch to the Sanction, please.

24 Q. And I'll put to you -- I'm not going to play -- I wanted to just

25 play a short clip, but I'll put to you that this refers in the interview

Page 7009

1 to the period of January 1990. It's the first half of 1990.

2 MR. WHITING: If we could play that clip.

3 [Videotape played]


5 Q. Sir, now that you've seen that clip --

6 MR. WHITING: And just for the purposes of the record it's on

7 page 3 of the -- that clip is from page 3 of the transcript which is in

8 evidence of -- in Exhibit 497.

9 Q. Now that you've seen that clip, do you accept that this was

10 happening and that you were not aware of it, that Mr. Martic was

11 organising the police and that it was something that you were not aware

12 of?

13 A. If that's what he says, I accept that.

14 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I think this is a convenient time for

15 the break. Thank you, Your Honour. I believe. Am I right?

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated].

17 MR. WHITING: I've got a minute, but I'm about to start another

18 topic.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

20 We'll take a break now and come back at half past 12.00.

21 Court adjourned.

22 --- Recess taken at 11.56 a.m.

23 --- On resuming at 12.28 p.m.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Whiting.

25 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honours.

Page 7010

1 Q. Sir, when you came to the Knin police department in July of 1990,

2 were you informed that a couple weeks before, around the 5th of July of

3 1990, that some high-level Croatian officials, including the Minister of

4 Interior, Josip Boljkovic, and also his associate, and also Ante Bujas

5 from Sibenik had come to Knin to meet and negotiate with Milan Martic and

6 the other Serb policemen who had signed that petition? Were you made

7 aware of this?

8 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, at least that's

9 the interpretation I heard, the minister of internal affairs is Josip

10 Boljkovac not Boljkovic. I wasn't following the English, so I don't know

11 what my learned friend from the Prosecution said, but I just wanted to

12 make sure that the correction is put in now and not later.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Milovancevic.

14 He said the minister was Boljkovac not Boljkovic.

15 MR. WHITING: I meant to say Boljkovac but it's very possible that

16 I mispronounced it.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you now understand who we are talking about,

18 Witness? We are talking about Boljkovac?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do, I understand, yes.


21 Q. Now with that clarification, were you made aware that this meeting

22 had taken place around the 5th of July, 1990?

23 A. Yes, I was.

24 Q. Were you made aware of the fact that the Croat authorities

25 required the protection of the Serb policemen in order to leave the

Page 7011

1 meeting unharmed? Did you know that?

2 A. No, I didn't know that.

3 Q. Did you know that from the -- at least from the point of view or

4 from the perspective of the policemen who had signed the petition, which

5 was as you told us all but eight of the policemen in Knin, that they

6 believed after that meeting that the Croat authorities had no real

7 authority anymore in Knin. Did you know that? Were you told that?

8 A. No, I wasn't told that.

9 Q. Well, I'm going to show you another clip. It's from the same

10 interview. It's --

11 MR. WHITING: Just for the record, it appears on page 13 of the

12 transcript of the interview, which is Exhibit 497. And if we could switch

13 to the Sanction, please, for this.

14 [Videotape played]


16 Q. So you weren't told those things that Mr. Martic just said when

17 you arrived in Knin in July of 1990, around the 12th or 13th of July, you

18 weren't told about that?

19 A. No. (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 Q. I'm going to interrupt you. You fully answered that question when

22 you said the word "no." And the additional explanation about another

23 event is not required. Now --

24 MR. WHITING: I'm sorry, is there a --

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Judge Hoepfel was suggesting we delete that

Page 7012

1 answer -- that part of the answer which you don't want where he -- where

2 the witness refers to his position as ...

3 MR. WHITING: Yes. I'm very grateful. Thank you.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

5 Can we redact that line, that is page 61, line 12 to 13, except

6 the "no."

7 MR. WHITING: May I proceed, Your Honour?

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may.

9 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. Sir, would you accept that in fact you did not know everything

11 that was happening in the Knin public security station in -- at that time

12 when you were there? Would you accept that, sir?

13 A. It's possible.

14 Q. Well, it's more than just possible, isn't it, sir? Having seen

15 how Mr. Martic -- unless you believe that Mr. Martic isn't telling the

16 truth or is making it up. Having seen how Mr. Martic talked about that

17 time period and having told us what you knew and what you didn't know,

18 would you accept now that you did not know everything that was happening

19 in the Knin police department at the time you were there in July of 1990?

20 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Mr. Whiting, sorry, did you not just say that the

21 witness arrived in Knin a week after, around a week after that meeting?

22 So that your question would refer to the days before his arrival?

23 MR. WHITING: Yes. I -- I'm grateful, Your Honour. I would like

24 to --

25 Q. Let me put the question to you a little bit more broadly.

Page 7013

1 At that time when you arrived, in the days -- would you accept

2 that you were not aware of everything that had happened before your

3 arrival?

4 A. No, I wasn't aware of the events before my arrival.

5 Q. And you testified that in connection with the events in August of

6 1991, that some days after August 17th that Milan Martic said and that --

7 and it was -- I believe it was televised that "as long as he was in charge

8 of the police, the chequer-board would never get in Knin."

9 This appears at 6802. You remember that testimony?

10 A. Yes, I do.

11 Q. Are you aware -- were you made aware of the fact that he said very

12 similar words, almost identical to that, the day of or the day after the

13 meeting with the Croatian authorities on July 5th of 1990? Are you aware

14 of that, sir?

15 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Prosecutor in

16 his previous question mentioned the page number but did not quote the

17 statement. And now he's paraphrasing a speech. So it would be important

18 to have the actual sentence from the witness's response. I'm just

19 following the instructions that have been given.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Aren't you finding the speech at the page that he

21 cited, Mr. Milovancevic?

22 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, if I may be of assistance. I did quote

23 it word for word from that page --

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Except that in your quotation you said "he"; you

25 didn't say "I."

Page 7014

1 MR. WHITING: Well, that's because I was quoting. That's because

2 I was quoting. I was being faithful to the text. In the text the way the

3 witness said it is -- the witness was quoting Milan Martic who said as

4 long as he, Milan Martic, was in charge.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: I beg your pardon. You are quoting the witness,

6 you are not quoting Milan Martic. Okay. That's fine.

7 The quotation is not a paraphrase according to Mr. Whiting.

8 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, at the time Martic

9 was not at the head of the police at all. We saw a video clip --

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's not the issue. The issue is the Prosecutor

11 is quoting the witness where the witness said: "As long as I am" -- where

12 is it?

13 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] I understood, Your Honour. I

14 understand what you are telling me. Thank you.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- in charge."

16 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] The witness's statement is

17 being quoted, not a statement by Mr. Martic. Now I understand. I'm

18 sorry. Thank you, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Whiting.

20 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour. But to be clear, the

21 witness in that statement was quoting Milan Martic, so ultimately it is a

22 statement by Milan Martic.

23 Q. Now, are you aware, sir, that -- were you made aware when you

24 arrived in the police station in July of 1990 that Mr. Martic had made a

25 very similar statement about the chequer-board never flying in Knin? I

Page 7015

1 believe there was a reference to the fort, it would never fly over the

2 fort, that he made that statement around July 5th of 1990? Are you

3 aware -- were you made aware of that, sir?

4 A. No, I wasn't aware of that.

5 Q. Now, I'm going to now move to some events that occurred while you

6 were in the police department in Knin in August of 1990. And I think it's

7 fair to say that you went to great lengths in your testimony to say that

8 the break-in of -- the break-in to the police station in Knin was -- to

9 get the reserve weapons was done by the citizens, by the people. Do you

10 recall that testimony?

11 A. Yes, I do.

12 Q. By the way, before I ask you any more questions about the break-in

13 to the police station, I want to ask you something else. The decision by

14 the Croatian authorities to take control of the reserve police weapons in

15 Knin, in Obrovac, in Benkovac, that was a lawful order, wasn't it? There

16 was nothing illegal about that order or that decision, was there?

17 A. Yes, yes, it was legal.

18 Q. So it's fair to say that anybody opposing that order, taking steps

19 to oppose the implementation of that order, would be breaking the law,

20 would be violating a lawful order. Is that correct, sir?

21 A. That's correct.

22 Q. Now, are you -- are you aware that in April or May of 1990, the

23 JNA took control of the Croatian Territorial Defence weapons? Do you have

24 knowledge of that?

25 A. Yes, something from the media, from the press.

Page 7016

1 Q. Well, I'm going to show you a document just to see if you can

2 confirm its accuracy.

3 MR. WHITING: And it's again that -- the report from Human Rights

4 Watch from September of 1991, and the ERN again is 00276596, if we could

5 have that up again. And if we could go to page 23 again, please. And

6 could we go to the bottom of the page, please.

7 Q. Now, again, I don't have a B/C/S of -- version of this, so I'll

8 have to read it to you and it will be translated. In the last paragraph,

9 the second sentence, it says -- and I'm just going to ask you after I read

10 this if you can confirm its accuracy based on what you knew.

11 "However, a few weeks before Slovenia and Croatia voted out their

12 communist regimes in 1990, the Yugoslav army made efforts to confiscate

13 weapons which were part of Slovenia's and Croatia's Territorial Defence

14 units. In April 1990, just prior to the Croatian elections, the army

15 confiscated most of the republic's weapons."

16 Is that consistent with what you knew or heard at the time?

17 A. That's it more or less. I don't know if that's the specific time

18 period, but this did happen.

19 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do have an

20 intervention. I don't know whether I would call it an objection, but it's

21 about inconsistency as far as the time is concerned.

22 In the previous remark, the Prosecutor said that the JNA

23 confiscated the weapons in April, but here Human Rights Watch says that it

24 was a few weeks before the vote on independence. I don't know what that

25 means because the decision on independence was taken in 1991. Elections

Page 7017

1 are one thing. This did take place in 1990, and they were multi-party

2 elections, but the vote on independence, at least that's how I understood

3 the question by the Prosecutor. We are now talking about a period of one

4 year. I don't know whether those two questions are connected.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let's find out.

6 Yes, Mr. Whiting.

7 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, with respect, I think Defence counsel

8 is confused. The -- the sentence it says -- it is about April of 1990,

9 and the sentence says: "A few weeks before Slovenia and Croatia voted out

10 their communist regimes in 1990 ..." It's not about the independence

11 declaration in 1991. It's about the multi-party elections in 1990.

12 And then the second sentence is very specific. It says: "In

13 April 1990, just prior to the Croatian elections, the army confiscated

14 most of the republic's weapons."

15 So I don't think there's any contradiction at all in the chapter.

16 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may proceed, Mr. Whiting.

18 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Q. Now, just to go back to your answer, sir, before that

20 interruption, do I understand your answer to be that, yes, this happened.

21 The only thing you're not absolutely sure about is the exact time it

22 happened?

23 A. Yes, that's correct.

24 Q. Now, if we could go back to the so-called break-in of the -- I

25 won't say "so-called." The break-in of the Knin public security station

Page 7018

1 to -- in August of 1990, did you ever learn that in fact the break-in to

2 seize the weapons was organised by Milan Martic and others and it was made

3 to look like the citizens had done it? Did you learn that fact, sir?

4 A. No, no, I didn't learn that. That was something that was never

5 indicated to me and I never heard that.

6 MR. WHITING: Before I go on on this topic, I failed -- could I

7 move into evidence the document that I was referring to, please?

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document -- the one on the screen?


10 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document on the screen is admitted into

11 evidence. May it please be given an exhibit number.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will become exhibit number 895.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.


15 Q. So you never heard that before? Before today you never heard

16 that, that Milan Martic had organised the break-in and made it look

17 like -- Milan Martic and others, and made it look like the public had done

18 it?

19 A. No, I never heard of that.

20 Q. I'm going to go again to the interview that Mr. Martic gave in

21 October 1994. I'm going to rely on a transcript this time, and if we

22 could go -- if we could have Exhibit 496, please. And in English -- if we

23 could go on English to page 6 and also page 6 of the B/C/S, please.

24 And just to -- as a word of explanation about this transcript.

25 The questions -- the answers are recorded on this transcript but not the

Page 7019

1 questions -- whenever there's a question, it simply says "question." The

2 actual question is not recorded but the answer is transcribed. That's why

3 this sort of confusing nature of the transcript.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated].

5 MR. WHITING: Now, when I say "page 6," I mean page 6 on the

6 e-court page 6. I can give the ERN. The ERN is 550 -- that's it. That's

7 page 6.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated].

9 MR. WHITING: 5509. Is that also in the -- I can't -- yeah, okay.

10 Can we find -- would it be possible for the B/C/S, to shrink it

11 down so we can see the whole page, please?

12 Now -- and then focus in on the second half there where it

13 says: "On the 17th of August ..." There we go. And if we could blow up.

14 Q. Okay. And I'm just going to read there. On the -- this is Milan

15 Martic speaking. "On the 17th of August, two days before our referendum,

16 we got on info that Croatia with its police had started to disarm the

17 police stations in Serbian opstinas. In Knin we allowed them to disarm

18 us. In agreement with Raskovic and Babic, we decided to take all the

19 weapons from the storages of the reserve militia and we made a false

20 attempt as if the citizens broke into the storage. We took the arms and

21 from that moment I personally assumed the command over the roadblocks."

22 And then I'll go to the next answer, so if we could scroll down,

23 please, on the B/C/S.

24 He said: "I remember every detail when we agreed that I will be

25 in charge of the feigned break-in to the police station to take the

Page 7020

1 weapons and distribute them to the fighters. And I said to Dr. Babic: No

2 problem, I'll do that, and you proclaim the state of emergency."

3 MR. WHITING: I think we have to turn to the next page in B/C/S.

4 Q. And then I'm going to jump down to the bottom of the page in

5 English.

6 "I went to the police station and" --

7 MR. WHITING: If we could turn to the next page in English.

8 "... and ordered that they feign the break-in. We took the

9 weapons and I left with the people and in Golubic distributed those

10 weapons to the fighters. About 300 rifles, and I created a battalion

11 apart from the regular police. Around 5.00 p.m. Dr. Babic proclaimed not

12 the state of emergency but the state of war and this entered history as

13 the proclamation of the state of war."

14 Q. Now, having seen this account from Mr. Martic about those events,

15 would you accept, sir, that even while you were at the police department

16 in Knin you did not know everything that was happening. Would you accept

17 that?

18 A. Well, probably I didn't know.


20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But this figure of 300 rifles --

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did you know? It can't be probable that you knew.

22 You either knew or you didn't know.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, if this is true, I didn't

24 know.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's not the question. Did you know these things

Page 7021

1 that are mentioned here?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. I didn't know this.

3 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Now, there's a reference to the distribution of weapons in Golubic

5 on that day, and we've had other testimony in this trial about that. Were

6 you aware, sir, that on the 17th of August, 1990, Milan Martic and others

7 distributed weapons in Golubic to reserve policemen?

8 A. As far as I know, reserve policemen had not been engaged by that

9 time.

10 Q. Sir, I'm going to interrupt you because that's an answer to a

11 different question than the question I put to you. The question I put to

12 you is: Did you know that Milan Martic distributed weapons to reserve

13 policemen on August 17th, 1990? Were you aware of that fact?

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it to reserve police or is it to police apart

15 from the regular police?

16 MR. WHITING: I'm -- Your Honour, I'm relying on evidence that's

17 been given in this trial about that matter.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Oh, you're not relying on this document?

19 MR. WHITING: No. I'll rephrase the question so that we don't

20 have that difficulty, Your Honour. I think I can rephrase it.

21 Q. Let me rephrase the question. Are you aware, sir, that on

22 August 17th, 1990 Milan Martic distributed weapons in Golubic?

23 A. No.

24 Q. So that's another thing you didn't know about. Is that right?

25 A. At that time, I didn't know it.

Page 7022

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: I guess you also did not know the people to whom

2 these weapons were distributed were people other than regular police?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't know. My men were not

4 members of that section.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may proceed.

6 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. Now, you also testified in direct examination that you didn't

8 think that the police had anything to do with the barricades from the time

9 they appeared until January of 1991. Is that -- you recall -- is that

10 your testimony, sir?

11 A. Yes, that's true.

12 Q. But you also told us, didn't you, that after August 1990 you in

13 fact did not see Milan Martic around very much, did you?

14 A. Correct.

15 Q. And we just saw in this transcript of this interview that

16 Mr. Martic said that -- said: "I personally -- I personally assumed the

17 command over the roadblocks."

18 Did you see that in the interview, sir?

19 A. I can't see it now.

20 Q. Do you remember -- do you remember I read it out just a few

21 minutes ago. Do you remember me reading it out?

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: I think it's on the previous page.

23 MR. WHITING: It is on the previous page. Thank you, Your Honour.

24 And it's 5509 in the English. You know, I'm not absolutely sure -- oh,

25 yeah, I think it's the last sentence on the B/C/S.

Page 7023

1 Q. Do you see, sir, where it says: "From that moment I personally

2 assumed the command over the roadblocks."

3 Do you see that, sir?

4 A. Yes, yes.

5 Q. And would you accept that that in fact was true and is simply

6 something you did not know, another thing that you did not know about at

7 the time? Would you accept that, sir?

8 A. I accept that.

9 Q. And isn't it true, sir, that in fact members of the Serbian -- let

10 me put this differently. Serb policemen appeared at -- helped man

11 roadblocks in the Krajina in Knin municipality after in -- after August

12 17th, 1990? Isn't that true, sir?

13 A. No, that's not correct. It's not true as far as I know.

14 Q. Well, if -- if I may, could we go back to your statement that you

15 gave in the year 2000, and I believe you still have it before you. And

16 I'd ask you to look at page 3 of the B/C/S, and it's page 3 of the

17 English. And there's a paragraph that begins -- on the English it's

18 the -- it's the third full paragraph, and the paragraph begins: "At the

19 same time, the order from Zagreb was to lift barricades ..."

20 And part way through that paragraph it says: "The police officers

21 justified the existence of the barricades and supported the people's

22 move."

23 That's true, isn't it, sir? The police officers supported the

24 barricade, didn't they?

25 A. Part of the police officers just said so in daily conversations,

Page 7024

1 and that's what I meant when I -- when I stated that.

2 Q. So it's your testimony that Serb policemen did not stand by the

3 barricades and manned them during 1990 that you're aware of?

4 A. As far as I know, they did not actively participate at the

5 barricades.

6 Q. And just so we're clear, if they were standing and manning the

7 barricades alongside with locals, you would call that actively

8 participating at the barricades, would you not?

9 A. I would call that active participation, if they stood guard,

10 stopped people in vehicles, checked papers, and performed other duties

11 normally performed at barricades, then I would call it active

12 participation. But to my knowledge none of them did that.

13 Q. Could this be something else that was happening; that is, police

14 were engaging in these activities but you did not know about it? Would

15 you accept that?

16 A. That's possible. I don't know what you mean.

17 Q. Well, I guess what I mean is that you did not -- you were in Knin.

18 You did not observe all of the barricades around the Knin municipality,

19 did you?

20 A. Correct.

21 Q. So it's possible that police were participating in these ways and

22 you simply did not know about it. Isn't that possible? You would accept

23 that that's possible, right?

24 A. That, too, is possible.

25 Q. Now, I want to look at something else in your statement here.

Page 7025

1 It's on page -- it's still on page 3, and it's at the top of the page in

2 English. I can't tell you exactly where it is in the B/C/S. But the

3 paragraph begins: "The tensions were growing ..."

4 And this is a reference -- the time period is -- from the context

5 is August of 1990. And then it -- do you see that paragraph that

6 starts: "The tensions were growing. People were afraid, remembering mass

7 slaughters"?

8 Have you found that paragraph on page 3, sir?

9 A. I can see it, yes.

10 Q. Okay. I just wanted to make sure you were with us.

11 And then it says: "People were afraid, remembering mass

12 slaughters of Serbs by Croats during the Second World War."

13 And this is the sentence -- the two sentences that I'm interested

14 in: "Those actions were orchestrated by a so-called Serb people's

15 resistance. The seat of this organisation was in Knin."

16 Now, that's a reference, is it not, to an organisation that's

17 sometimes called the Council for National Resistance. Is that right?

18 A. You could say the names are similar, and their functions, duties,

19 were the same, their purpose was the same. Resistance, council for

20 resistance, would mean the same thing, something that was meant to offer

21 resistance.

22 Q. And this council came into existence after August 17th, 1990, and

23 was -- one of its functions was to organise and coordinate the barricades,

24 wasn't it?

25 A. It's possible they did that. I was not familiar with the work and

Page 7026

1 command there.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: When you say in that sentence: "Those actions were

3 orchestrated by a so-called ..." What actions were you referring to?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, when I was giving that

5 statement in 2000, I was thinking of all those actions aimed at putting up

6 the barricades, the roadblocks, and all the stories and rumours that

7 circulated. That's what I had in mind when I was giving that answer.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: So by "those actions" you meant the barricades and

9 the roadblocks?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. The shifts of personnel,

11 food, everything that was possibly going around those barricades. The

12 entire logistics.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

14 You may proceed.

15 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. Sir, were you aware that Milan Martic was one of the commanders or

17 one of the leading figures in the Council for National Resistance?

18 A. No, I was not aware.

19 Q. Were you aware that he played a role, that he participated in the

20 activities of the Council for National Resistance?

21 A. I had no information to that effect or evidence of that.

22 Q. So you didn't know that first he was based in this capacity in

23 Golubic and then he moved shortly thereafter to the village of Oton, and

24 then sometime later moved to - and I'm going to mispronounce this, I'm

25 sure - Sinobadova Glavica? You weren't aware of that then, sir?

Page 7027

1 A. No, I didn't know that at all.

2 Q. I'm going to show you a document which is in evidence in our case.

3 It's Exhibit 872. This is a --

4 MR. WHITING: If we could turn to the last page of the document,

5 please.

6 Q. This is a statement that was taken, you'll see here, on the 2nd of

7 December, 1990, by the JNA security organs. And you'll see the name

8 Zdravko Tolimir there on the left, perhaps a name that's familiar to you.

9 Is that name familiar to you?

10 A. Yes. Yes, the name of Zdravko Tolimir is familiar and Dragomir

11 Pecanac is also familiar. I don't know the third person, Ognjen Biserko.

12 Q. Now, if we could turn to the first page of the statement, please,

13 and I'm just going to focus in on some parts and then ask you if this

14 refreshes your recollection or if you know anything about what's being

15 discussed in the statement. And from the English I'm going to start

16 reading from the last sentences of the page, and you'll have to tell me,

17 sir, if you see it. I think it's -- yes, I think it will be on this page.

18 "I know that after the state of war was proclaimed," and that's a

19 reference to the 17th of August, 1990, "village guards were organised and

20 barricades set up in view of defence."

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, I'm not with you. I'm on page 1.

22 MR. WHITING: Yeah, I see there's a different version in the --

23 it's -- on this version it's on the middle of the page of the

24 English. "I'm aware that after a state of war was declared" --

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah, okay.

Page 7028

1 MR. WHITING: I didn't realise I had a different version.

2 Q. "I also know that in Golubic village the staff for the defence of

3 Knin was created, which was later named -- renamed the Council of National

4 Resistance. I know this because radio and telephone communication links

5 were maintained between this staff and the reporting centre. I don't know

6 exactly in which way this staff was formed, but I do know which persons

7 used its communications to call me. They were Milan Martic, inspector of

8 the Knin SJS," and some other names are then listed.

9 MR. WHITING: And then if we could turn to the next page in

10 English, and I think we'll also have to turn to the next page in the

11 B/C/S.

12 Q. A few lines down it says: "Martic said that he had been appointed

13 Chief of Staff and that Milan Babic was the one who appointed them all to

14 these functions in order to do the job seriously. I don't know for how

15 long exactly this staff operated and controlled the organisation of

16 resistance by inhabitants of Golubic village because it changed its

17 location repeatedly being based in Oton village at a time and then in the

18 memorial centre on Sinobadova Glavica in Knin. I know that after some

19 time the Council of National Resistance, against violence inflicted on the

20 Serbs, took over the functions of the staff. The Council was made up of

21 Milan Martic, Milan Dragisic," and some other names.

22 Q. Sir, do you know anything about what is stated here in this

23 statement or are these things that you were completely unaware of?

24 A. From this statement I recognise several persons whom I know as

25 citizens of Knin, but I know truly nothing about the events -- about the

Page 7029

1 event concerned. This is the first time I hear of it.

2 Q. So again, would you accept that during this time period,

3 August/September 1990, there were things happening in Knin municipality

4 that you were not aware of?

5 A. That's possible.

6 Q. Well, would you accept that that in fact could be very possible?

7 A. Possible, possible. I said it was possible that this happened.

8 Q. Now, certainly you would agree with me, would you not, that by the

9 time the so-called log revolution started in August of 1990, from then on

10 the Croatian police had no real authority in Knin, right?

11 A. I could not agree with you for several reasons.

12 Q. Well, let me -- before I hear those reasons, let me put to you

13 something -- some things that you said yourself in your direct

14 examination.

15 You told us that officers refused to implement several plans to

16 withdraw the weapons from Knin. You told us also that around the 22nd of

17 August officers in Drnis threw down their weapons and refused to implement

18 an order that had come from Sibenik. And you told us that those officers

19 thereafter weren't fired from their positions for refusing the order, that

20 they in fact were allowed to transfer to whatever police department they

21 wanted to go to. Don't those things indicate that the Croatian

22 authorities had, if not no authority in Knin, had extremely diminished

23 authority in Knin? Would you agree with that?

24 A. No, I would not.

25 Q. Why not?

Page 7030

1 A. Your Honours and honourable Mr. Prosecutor, the entire life of all

2 the people and the town of Knin was not reduced only to those barricades

3 and their operation. In addition to barricades, we had traffic, there

4 were thefts, embezzlements, car accidents, bar brawls, normal work was

5 going on, registrations were to be issued, IDs, all the other work of the

6 organs of internal affairs. We conducted our crime investigations,

7 apprehended people, cooperated with the justice system. We investigated

8 break-ins into rail cars transporting weapons. We reported to Zagreb, to

9 Sibenik. We're doing many other things.

10 Imagine -- imagine whether Zagreb, the MUP of Zagreb, and the

11 state of Croatia would be paying us if they really thought we were not

12 doing most of what our job normally consists of. So life was not just

13 barricades. There was normal life going on elsewhere in the territory --

14 Q. Sir, sir, I think --

15 A. It's possible that I didn't know about this.

16 Q. Well, I think that's something you've told us now a number of

17 times, and I think I understand your answer, though wouldn't you agree

18 with me, sir, that on all those other matters, those are matters that the

19 police in Knin were happy to cooperate with other police on, but that if

20 they did not want to cooperate, then they wouldn't? For example, on the

21 barricades. So ultimately it was up to the Serb police when they would

22 cooperate and when they wouldn't. Isn't that true?

23 A. Well, you could put it this way. Maybe they gave me wrong, false,

24 information and then I forwarded that false information to superior

25 commands, but I didn't have evidence of anything like that. I didn't have

Page 7031

1 evidence that they held something back from me.

2 Q. I understand, though the point of my question really was the --

3 and I'll put it -- I'll try to put it very simply. Croatian authorities

4 had authority in Knin only to the extent that the Serb majority there

5 agreed with that authority or agreed for them to have authority. Isn't

6 that right?

7 A. Even that is not completely right.

8 Q. Would you agree with me that it's right with respect to the

9 barricades and the disorder that surrounded the barricades? On those

10 topics, the Croatian authorities had no authority in Knin, right?

11 A. Well, as far as barricades are concerned, I would agree that they

12 had no power at all, no authority.

13 Q. I'll move on.

14 Let's talk about arming. You testified - and I'll quote you -

15 that -- and this is from 6808, that "throughout August and September 1990,

16 weapons were the main thing everyone was talking about and everybody was

17 bending over backwards in order to get weapons."

18 Do you remember that testimony, sir?

19 A. I remember that.

20 Q. You also talked, and this is at 6809, about various break-ins that

21 occurred. You described a case -- two case -- cases where the train was

22 broken into, and on one occasion ten rifles were taken and on another

23 occasion five or six were taken. And you told us about World War II

24 weapons that were surfacing and about weapons permits being forged. Do

25 you remember all those topics, sir? You have to answer verbally,

Page 7032

1 otherwise it doesn't get recorded.

2 A. Correct, I spoke about that. I'm sorry, I hadn't realised that

3 you were finished with your question, so I was waiting. And now I can

4 confirm that I understand. Yes.

5 Q. Thank you. I appreciate that. Now, just -- just to be clear,

6 you're talking about Serb civilians in Knin obtaining weapons by these

7 various methods, right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Now, you also testified, and this is at 6812, that: "We couldn't

10 take measures to confiscate all the weapons because that would pit us

11 against the population."

12 Do you remember that testimony, sir?

13 A. Sometimes there's an interruption. I lose the ...

14 Q. Should I repeat my question because it wasn't -- there was an

15 interruption?

16 A. Yes, please. Yes, please.

17 Q. You testified, and I'll quote, it's from 6812: "We couldn't take

18 measures to confiscate all the weapons because that would pit us against

19 the population."

20 Do you remember that testimony in your direct examination?

21 A. Yes, yes, I do.

22 Q. And you testified also, and I'll quote you again, that: "We could

23 not embark on the disarmament or disarming of those people manning the

24 barricades because that would have led to a very difficult situation. I

25 or any of my police officers or any of my superiors did not wish to disarm

Page 7033

1 the people in that way."

2 That's from 6812. Do you remember that testimony, sir?

3 A. Yes, I do remember.

4 Q. Now, you don't believe, do you, that the Serbs in Knin armed

5 themselves only by break-ins of trains and shops, do you?

6 A. I believe that they obtained that in ways I described.

7 Q. In fact, wasn't there already at this time an organised effort to

8 arm the Serbs and that weapons were arriving from Serbia, or is that

9 something that you were not aware of?

10 A. I didn't know of any organised action whereby weapons would arrive

11 from Serbia at that time.

12 Q. Well, let me just show you again Exhibit 872 and see if you are

13 aware of anything that is discussed in that statement.

14 MR. WHITING: And if we could look at page -- well, I -- from my

15 version it's page 5 of the English. It's page 4 of the B/C/S. Actually,

16 I think it's probably on page 4 of the English, but I believe it's page 5

17 of the B/C/S.

18 Could we go to the prior page on the B/C/S, please, and

19 go -- yes. It's that second paragraph there at the bottom. I apologise.

20 Yes, now I think we're on the same page.

21 Q. Now, it states: "Concerning illegal arming of citizens, I can say

22 that it is widespread. I know that about 1300 guns and 400 pistols have

23 been infiltrated into the Knin and Obrovac municipalities. I know that

24 600 guns have arrived in Strmica. I think it was between 15 October 1990

25 and 19 October 1990. They came from the Crvena Zastava factory based in

Page 7034

1 Kragujevac," which is in Serbia. Correct?

2 A. Yes, yes, in Serbia.

3 Q. "Through the mediator RO Sport from Belgrade which runs a business

4 in Knin."

5 Did you know anything about that, sir?

6 A. I didn't know anything about that transport of weapons and the

7 quantity of weapons which arrived in the Knin area. I heard about it in

8 1991 and 1992 during the war, that Simo Dubajic was mentioned sold

9 carbines for certain sums of money. I don't know whether the amount was

10 1.000 marks or something like that. But this is all the information. I

11 never bought a carbine, and in this case, when we're talking about this

12 event, when I see the dates and the quantities, that's all I know.

13 Later during the war, I did hear stories that there were carbines

14 passing in the territory, such shipments, and that they were being bought

15 and sold. That's what I heard later.

16 Q. When you heard that later during the war, was it in reference to

17 events that had occurred in the fall; that is, September, October,

18 November of 1990?

19 A. It's possible. I wasn't really paying attention to the time.

20 There were many events. It's possible that it was related to this period,

21 I mean carbines were probably not being brought in in 1995.

22 Q. Well, can I -- let me try to put the question more directly to

23 you. As you sit here today, do you recall hearing in 1991 that weapons

24 had been brought in -- carbines had been brought in and sold during 1990?

25 Do you recall hearing those stories?

Page 7035

1 A. I heard that the person mentioned in the statement, Mr. Simo

2 Dubajic, sold carbines. I don't know how they reached Knin and what the

3 quantity was or I don't know when exactly they arrived. But I heard that

4 he was selling carbines and that the price was approximately 1.000 German

5 marks. That was the counter value.

6 Q. Let me just read a -- just a bit more from this statement. And

7 it's at the bottom of page 4 in the English and it's going to be on the

8 next page in the B/C/S. Towards -- more towards the top. Just making

9 sure it's on -- yes, okay. It's about halfway down the screen in the

10 B/C/S there. And it starts the last sentence on -- in the English

11 version: "The same evening at about 1800" -- and the reference is to

12 16th November 1991, "Nanic told us at the centre that he had just driven

13 in about 400 guns and 200 or 300 pistols of the type TT Duga Devetka, and

14 he was supposed to transport them to the village of Krupa to give them to

15 his godfather Simo Dubajic."

16 And then it tells that he drove them from the manufacturer in

17 Kragujevac.

18 I'm sorry. Does that help you remember that these -- that these

19 quantities, these kinds of weapons were being brought by various channels

20 from Serbia at the time or do you still have no knowledge of that?

21 A. Your Honours, sir, I cannot change all that I know in one minute.

22 I have already said most of the things that I know, and I want to say as

23 much here so that the truth can be determined.

24 I was never present and I didn't have documents pertaining to

25 this. This person, Simo Dubajic, is mentioned here in relation to Krupa,

Page 7036

1 but I know that he actually comes from a place called Kistanje, not Krupa.

2 When this statement was taken -- I mean, there is a lot of information

3 here. I don't know whether it's all precise and correct. I'm not

4 doubting the statement as a whole, but I'm sure that there are some

5 details that are not so correct. Perhaps they are, but it's my

6 information that I don't know that so many weapons came to the territory

7 of Knin.

8 As I said, all I know is that during the war in different meetings

9 and through various events, I found out that these weapons were there.

10 All I know is that the cost was 1.000 German marks. I don't know whether

11 it was for one or two carbines. I am not somebody who is particularly

12 interested or ever had any hunting weapons. All I had was my officially

13 issued pistol. That's all that I had. I wasn't interested in anything

14 beyond that.

15 Q. Sir, just to be clear about the purpose of these questions, I'm

16 interested only in what you know and what you do not know. It's only what

17 you know. But also just to -- just -- you would agree with me that in the

18 statement it does not say that Simo Dubajic comes from the village of

19 Krupa, it's a reference that he's transporting weapons to Krupa, right?

20 Isn't that what it says? ?

21 A. The village of Krupa, yes.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I intervene, please? Can we all try to make

23 sure that, at least when the witness is speaking, all other microphones

24 are off. Apparently his voice can be heard outside the court.

25 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour. I've tried to remember to

Page 7037

1 turn mine off, but I may have missed a few times. I'll take greater care.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm also asking everybody else who is sitting

3 around. Please make sure that the microphones are off.

4 You may proceed, Mr. Whiting, now that my microphone is on.

5 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour. Actually, I know it's about

6 two minutes early, but I'm just going to go into another document which

7 will require more time than two minutes. So perhaps we could break for

8 the day.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: We are ever so grateful to you, Mr. Whiting. Thank

10 you so much.

11 We will now break for the day and reconvene tomorrow at quarter

12 past -- at 9.00 in the morning.

13 Court adjourned.

14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.40 p.m.,

15 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 24th day of

16 August, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.