Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7038

1 Thursday, 24 August 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning, everybody.

7 Once again, Mr. Witness, let me warn you that you are still bound

8 by the declaration you made on the first day of your testimony to tell the

9 truth, the whole truth and nothing else but the truth.

10 WITNESS: WITNESS MM-096 [Resumed]

11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before I ask you to stand up, Mr. Whiting, let me

13 again remind everybody, if you are not the person speaking at that time,

14 please switch off your microphone. Okay. Thank you very much.

15 Mr. Whiting.

16 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Cross-examination by Mr. Whiting: [Continued]

18 Q. Good morning, sir.

19 A. Good morning to you, sir.

20 Q. During your direct examination you were asked some questions about

21 Arkan whom you described as being, I believe, notorious and you testified

22 about his role in the RSK in 1993. Are you aware, sir, that at the end of

23 November 1990, he came from Belgrade and met with Milan Martic and others

24 in Golubic?

25 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I only know about this from the press.

Page 7039

1 Q. When did you hear that in the press?

2 A. Firstly I learned this while watching Croatian TV news covering

3 Arkan's arrest.

4 Q. And when was that?

5 A. I don't remember the date specifically. It might have been

6 sometime in 1991 that this information emerged.

7 Q. Well, do you recall that in fact not long after this meeting that

8 he had in Golubic with Milan Martic he was in fact arrested and held I

9 believe in Zagreb, and that was at the end of 1990 or the beginning of

10 1991? Do you recall that?

11 A. There was something along these lines indicating that Arkan was

12 there. I don't know who he met. I heard that he was in Knin and I heard

13 that he had been arrested further up into the hills near Banija and

14 Kordun.

15 Q. And when you heard that he was in Knin, did you hear that he was

16 in Knin at the end of 1990, in November of 1990?

17 A. I don't know the date or the time. I can't specify. It might

18 have been in 1990 or possibly 1991. I wasn't involved myself and there

19 was so much information circulating at the time that I can hardly be

20 certain.

21 Q. Did you hear in connection with this information about Arkan

22 meeting -- going to Knin and meeting with individuals that the topic of

23 the meeting or of the discussion was about how Belgrade could assist in

24 organising and arming the Serb rebels in Croatia? Did you hear that?

25 A. No. I heard nothing about that.

Page 7040

1 Q. Now, you also testified that in the fall of 1990, there were

2 explosives planted in Knin in kiosks owned by companies from Zagreb and

3 Split. Do you remember that testimony?

4 A. I do.

5 Q. And I take it that the -- these companies were -- or the kiosks

6 were targeted because the companies from Zagreb and Split were perceived

7 to be Croatian companies. Would you agree with me on that?

8 A. As I've mentioned before in my testimony, explosives were planted

9 in companies and kiosks along the Croatian coast but Serb-owned ones.

10 That sort of reaction in Knin was merely a reaction to what was going on

11 in the other parts of Croatia. What happened in Knin happened after

12 similar things had already taken place elsewhere, outside the Krajina, in

13 parts of Croatia that weren't Serb-controlled. It was only after that

14 that such things started happening in the Krajina itself.

15 Q. Sir, I submit to you that in that answer you have attempted to

16 justify what happened in Knin but you haven't answered the question. The

17 question I put to you is: You would agree with me, would you not, that

18 the explosives -- that the kiosks in Knin were targeted because the

19 companies from Zagreb or Split were perceived to be Croatian companies.

20 That's why they were targeted. You'd agree with that, wouldn't you, sir?

21 A. It is not my intention to justify any kind of crime, in Knin or

22 outside.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Witness, please listen to the question. We

24 haven't got much time now. You've been here for far too long than you

25 should have been. Answer the question, please, directly. You're not

Page 7041

1 asked to justify. You're asked to agree or disagree with the proposition

2 put to you.


4 Q. The question is: Those kiosks were targeted in Knin because they

5 were perceived to be owned by Croatian companies. Isn't that right, sir?

6 A. That was one possible interpretation.

7 Q. Is there any other possible interpretation, sir? That's the

8 reason, isn't it, sir?

9 A. Well, yes. I assume that it is, but only the perpetrator could

10 tell you for sure what the motives were.

11 Q. Well, sir, you had no problem in concluding that -- drawing

12 conclusions about Serb companies or Serb places that were targeted on the

13 coast. Are you having a difficulty drawing the obvious conclusions about

14 what was happening in Knin? Given everything that you knew and what was

15 happening, it was because they were Croatian companies that they were

16 targeted. Isn't that right, sir?

17 A. Probably.

18 Q. You also testified that there were obstacles or mines placed on

19 the train tracks around Knin, and you testified about an occasion when a

20 team from Zagreb came and went on the train and it was attacked. Do you

21 remember that testimony, sir?

22 A. I do.

23 Q. Are you aware -- do you have any information about the fact that

24 the Council for National Resistance was behind these provocations that

25 were occurring in the Krajina, in the Knin municipality?

Page 7042

1 A. I have no information to indicate that.

2 Q. And I take it you have no information to indicate that that was

3 not the case. You have no information either way, you just don't know

4 about that. You don't know whether they were behind the provocations or

5 not, that's something you don't know about. Is that right?

6 A. I know nothing about the perpetrators of those misdeeds.

7 Q. You testified about some efforts at negotiations in the fall of

8 1990 between Serb leaders and the Croatian side, and you mentioned that

9 the Croatian Minister of Interior was involved in those negotiations. Do

10 you remember that testimony?

11 A. I do.

12 Q. And do you know that Milan Babic was the principal representative

13 from the Serb side in those negotiations?

14 A. Yes. As far as I remember.

15 Q. Are you aware that the Council for National Resistance opposed

16 those negotiations?

17 A. I'm not aware who the members of that council were, and I don't

18 know what their positions were.

19 Q. I'm going to move to another topic and that is the topic of

20 salaries for the police in the Serb -- Serb police in the Krajina. And

21 before I do that I want to show you a clip from an interview that Milan

22 Martic gave in August of 1990. It's in evidence as Exhibit 4 and 5; the

23 video is one and the transcript is the other. And we will have to switch

24 to Sanction again for this.

25 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: I noticed that my screen tends to be a bit dark

Page 7043

1 whenever these clips come on. I wonder if there is any way that quality

2 could be improved.

3 [Videotape played]


5 Q. Sir, do you remember hearing Milan Martic making statements such

6 as this in the media in August of 1990?

7 A. Yes, I do remember this particular statement.

8 Q. And nonetheless, you testified that from July of 1990 until the

9 end of -- until January of 1991, the Knin police continued to receive

10 salaries from the Croatian government. Is that still your position?

11 A. Yes. I still believe that this was the case.

12 Q. And you testified that it was in January of 1991, only after the

13 Knin SUP was formed, that the salaries from the Croatian government

14 ceased. Is that your testimony?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Are you aware that in fact long before or quite a bit before

17 January 1991, sometime before the beginning of December 1990, that the

18 Croatian government cut off funding for the municipalities of Gracac,

19 Donji Lapac, Benkovac, Knin, Obrovac, Dvor Na Uni, Korenica? Do you

20 remember that?

21 A. Sir, Mr. Prosecutor, I believe I did not understand your question

22 fully. Can you please repeat it for me?

23 Q. Certainly. Are you aware that sometime before the beginning of

24 December 1990, the Croatian government stopped funding, stopped sending

25 funds to the municipalities of Gracac, Donji Lapac, Benkovac, Knin,

Page 7044

1 Obrovac, Dvor, Korenica? Are you aware of that?

2 A. The answer should now be a little more extensive. Up until

3 November, we had been receiving our salaries from Zagreb on a regular

4 basis through the Sibenik SUP. I'm telling you about the Knin station

5 now.

6 As for December we were told that the state coffers were running

7 out of money and that we would be paid in two instalments. That was what

8 Sibenik told us at the time. Just after, we received half our regular

9 salaries for December. The other half was never sent. And that is the

10 entire truth of this matter. The last half salary from Zagreb was in

11 December 1990. I received it as did the entire Knin station. I don't

12 know about the remaining stations such as Benkovac and Obrovac. They

13 weren't under my jurisdiction, nor was there really much communication

14 between us about this particular aspect. This information should be easy

15 enough to check in Zagreb.

16 Q. Well, let's look at 65 ter Exhibit 36, please. It's a little

17 small. Can you -- are you able to read it? Or maybe it could be blown up

18 a little bit for the witness.

19 Can you just take a moment to read this document, please?

20 This is a document which references a meeting held on the 10th of

21 December, 1990 and it references an earlier decision by the Croatian

22 government to block funds for the various municipalities that I listed.

23 Having seen this document, does this refresh your recollection

24 that in fact before the beginning of December 1990, Croatia blocked funds

25 for these municipalities?

Page 7045

1 A. This doesn't jog my memory at all. I know there was talk of

2 salaries being paid and then not being paid anymore but this was about

3 municipal assemblies as institutions, whereas my police station got its

4 funding from the republican level, from Zagreb, and not from the

5 municipality, this being the reason that I'm not familiar with the detail

6 of this situation.

7 Q. Sir, isn't it the case that not long after the so-called log

8 revolution began in August of 1990 that Croatia stopped paying the police

9 in Knin and the Krajina? Isn't that when that occurred?

10 A. I don't know what the question is about. All I know are facts.

11 Q. The question is about the -- is about your memory of the timing of

12 this event. You have said that it occurred in January of 1991 and I'm

13 putting to you that it occurred shortly after August of 1990. Would you

14 agree with me that that's the case or that that is at least possible?

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic.

16 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think the

17 Prosecutor is now applying pressure on the witness and this is going

18 outside the bounds of cross-examination. The witness answered the

19 question. He was shown a document and again he said it changed nothing

20 about his position, that he knew about the police funds, and I think

21 pressing this issue any further is a pure waste of time.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Whiting? Your basis of the objection is that

23 it's a waste of time? Mr. Milovancevic?

24 Yes, Mr. Whiting, do you have any response?

25 MR. WHITING: Well, that's an extraordinary objection coming from

Page 7046

1 the Defence, if I may say so, Your Honour.

2 I think that I have not exhausted this issue and I don't think I

3 have -- I'm pressuring the witness at all. I think I'm pressing for

4 clarity on this topic and for what his memory is. So I think it's

5 perfectly legitimate and a potentially fruitful line of cross-examination.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Objection overruled.

7 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. Let me put the question to you again, sir. You said that the

9 cutting off of funding for the police occurred in January of 1991. I'm

10 putting to you that it occurred shortly after August of 1990. Would you

11 agree with me that -- either that that's the case or that that's possible

12 and that you are possibly misremembering the timing of this event?

13 A. Our salaries were regular up until December 1990. It is based on

14 this that I can't agree with you. My conclusion is there had been

15 sufficient funds up to that point and the cash flow was regular between

16 the municipalities and the SUPs and the police stations. I don't know

17 about the rest. I don't know about the -- all the different companies and

18 enterprises in the area and how their funding worked.

19 I'm telling you what I know. Everything else would be mere

20 speculation, and I'm not here to make any speculations about that. I'm

21 saying the truth. I'm saying nothing but the truth. And I'm merely

22 trying to tell you what I know.

23 Q. So are you telling the Trial Chamber that you're certain that your

24 salaries were regular up until December of 1990?

25 A. I am absolutely certain about that decision.

Page 7047

1 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, could the document 65 ter Exhibit 36

2 which is on the screen, could that be admitted into evidence, please?

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document on the screen is admitted into

4 evidence. May it please be given an exhibit number.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit number 896.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

7 Yes, Mr. Whiting, you may proceed.

8 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. You testified also that when the -- when the Croatian government

10 stopped paying the police, that salaries started being paid by donations

11 by citizens. Do you recall that testimony?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Sir, isn't it in fact the case or maybe this is something again

14 you don't know about, that funds from Belgrade, from Serbia, started to

15 arrive to pay the salaries of the police once the Croatian government

16 stopped paying the salaries? Isn't that in fact the case?

17 A. Not that I know about.

18 Q. Is -- is this something else that could have happened without you

19 knowing about, though? After all, in January of 1991, you were no longer

20 in the position, I won't make reference to it, but your position had

21 changed. Is it possible that this occurred without you knowing about it?

22 A. It's possible.

23 Q. I want to ask you -- move to a new topic which is the situation of

24 the Croat population in Knin. And still focusing on the second half of

25 1990, you testified that: "You could not even imagine that you would find

Page 7048

1 yourself in a situation where people were freely interrupting the flow of

2 traffic, they were carrying weapons, there were violations of law and

3 order without any punishment." That appears at 6826.

4 Now just to be clear, you're talking there about the Serb

5 population in the area of Knin, right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now, let me ask you some questions about the Croat population.

8 And you would agree with me, would you not, that in Knin municipality -

9 and I believe you may have even testified about this yourself - that

10 Croats made up about 10 per cent of the population in the Knin

11 municipality; is that right?

12 A. Roughly speaking. I don't know exactly but I guess one could put

13 it that way.

14 Q. But that's approximately correct, whether it's 11 per cent,

15 9 per cent, that's approximately correct, isn't it?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, you testified with regard to the Croat population in Knin

18 that from July of 1990 to January of 1991, that: "The security situation

19 was worsening and fear was encroaching upon the people living there, both

20 Croats and Serbs, Croats in particular because they constituted the

21 minority. They didn't know what would become of them the next day."

22 That's at 6822.

23 You recall that testimony?

24 A. Yes. And that's true.

25 Q. In fact, sir, isn't it true that the Croat population didn't just

Page 7049

1 experience fear, they experienced harassment and mistreatment, didn't

2 they?

3 A. Well, one could put it that way, that this was the case. But if

4 there is an explosion near residential areas in a town, everybody is

5 scared alike, regardless of their ethnicity. Everybody is terrorised.

6 Everybody was in fear, afraid for their lives and their property. One

7 could say, though, that the Croats had a slightly more difficult time than

8 everybody else at the time in Knin at least. They felt greater fear.

9 Q. My question, though, is not about fear, sir. It's that -- my

10 question is: Isn't it true that the Croat population experienced

11 harassment and mistreatment?

12 A. There was both harassment and mistreatment of the entire

13 population. Certainly victims were Croats rather than others, or to a

14 greater extent than others.

15 Q. Well, are you having some difficulty just saying that the Croat

16 population in Knin experienced mistreatment and harassment?

17 A. No. I'm not having difficulty. It's the truth, and I'm not

18 trying to hide from it, but one needs to understand the overall situation

19 and I would like you to have a true picture of the overall situation at

20 that time.

21 Q. Sir, again, with respect, your job as a witness is simply to

22 answer the questions, not to try to advocate a certain position or to try

23 to give what you think is the correct position of the situation. Please

24 just try to answer the questions.

25 So as I understand it, you now agree with me, and you say it is

Page 7050

1 true that the Croat population in Knin, from July of 1990 until January of

2 1991, experienced mistreatment and harassment. That's true, yes or no?

3 A. Yes.

4 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Mr. Whiting, I don't know if you're aware of

5 page 12, line 11 to 13. He actually said that the harassment was greater

6 than others. Or am I misreading?

7 MR. WHITING: Yes. I take that point. I think that's correct,

8 Your Honour.

9 Q. Now, you testified also that the difficult position of the Croat

10 population was not the result of actions taken by the public security

11 station in Knin. In fact, it was the result of actions taken by the

12 Council for National Resistance and the organisers of the barricades,

13 wasn't it?

14 A. No. I did not say that it was the result of the Council for

15 National Resistance or barricades. It's a consequence of the overall

16 situation, whereas barricades contributed to increasing their fear,

17 because whenever they attempted to go somewhere and use the roads, they

18 must have felt worse than Serbs passing through those barricades, worse

19 than Serbs, for instance, when they attempted to go to Sibenik or anywhere

20 else.

21 Q. You also testified that the media on both sides of the conflict,

22 the Croatian media and the Serb media, was extremist, and just to quote

23 what you said yourself. You said: "The media" -- there is at 6828 --

24 "the media, regardless of whether they were from Zagreb, from Belgrade,

25 from Split, always featured reports where their own people would be

Page 7051

1 presented as victims and it was not said that both were victims."

2 You recall that testimony?

3 A. I remember.

4 Q. The media was at that time state-owned, wasn't it?

5 A. Most of them, not all, but most of them.

6 Q. Focusing on the most of them, the media that was state-owned, did

7 the description that you gave that I just quoted apply to that media, to

8 the state-owned media? Is that a fair description of the state-owned

9 media?

10 A. I think -- I don't think I really understood the interpretation

11 that I received.

12 Q. My question wasn't particularly well phrased.

13 The description that you gave of the media, which I'll say is --

14 describing the media as being extremist, would you describe the

15 state-owned media that way, as being -- in those terms?

16 A. I would describe them the same way nowadays.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: We are not talking about nowadays. We are talking

18 about then. Would you describe them as extremist at that time? The ones

19 that you were describing in your evidence that was quoted to you, you are

20 not talking about nowadays. When were you talking about? What period

21 were you talking about?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I understood the

23 question to relate to the period starting with 1990, 1991, and that's the

24 period I'm talking about. I'm talking about that time, not today.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Why do you then say "nowadays"? You said here,

Page 7052

1 unless you are misinterpreted: "I would describe them the same way

2 nowadays."

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, then and now, with

4 hindsight, I would say the same thing. I meant to say I didn't change my

5 opinion.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. That's much clearer.

7 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. Now, I want to ask you some questions about your leaving your

9 position and let's not refer to what that position was but -- or say

10 explicitly what it was. But you recounted a story in your testimony by

11 which in December of 1990 a policeman was murdered and another was wounded

12 in the area around Obrovac, and you told us that you were ordered to

13 arrest a Serb who had been suspected of having committed the murder. And

14 you said that there was this incident and many other incidents and as a

15 result you resigned from your post. Do you recall that testimony?

16 A. I recall that statement and the whole thing. Maybe it was not

17 interpreted quite precisely. It's not that we had to apprehend the

18 suspect, the murder, but the person who we thought was connected with

19 that, he was in fact just a passerby who was standing, who was at that

20 time quite some way from the scene, and the police later found him.

21 Q. Well, let me try to approach this a different way. Is it fair to

22 say that because of the ethnic tensions in your area by December of 1990,

23 that you found your job impossible to do and decided that you wanted to

24 leave your position? Is that a fair statement?

25 A. Yes, it's a fair statement. And also because I felt responsible

Page 7053

1 for a certain territory, while not being able to restore order, I felt it

2 was my duty to offer my resignation and to say that I'm no longer capable

3 of performing my duties under those circumstances. And I said all that at

4 a meeting in MUP at the office of Minister Boljkovac and his deputy,

5 Juric.

6 Q. And in your direct examination you stated that -- you testified

7 about being relieved, and you said -- you said that you would not

8 be "morally responsible anymore." And that you "assumed where this could

9 lead later."

10 Now, just focusing for a moment on the Serb side of the conflict,

11 is it fair to say that already by that time, in December of 1990, you

12 could see that extremist forces were taking over?

13 A. I don't know what you mean when you say that they were taking

14 over. I don't know what you mean specifically by "taking over." But I

15 can say that I was no longer capable, and I didn't feel capable any

16 longer. Nobody came to threaten me in the police station and nobody

17 threatened my men and I still had the support from Zagreb. That all is

18 true. But I didn't want to go on in that way because I thought that if

19 even more blood is shed, there would be never any reconciliation and I

20 didn't want to be a party to that. I did not want to become somebody who

21 would be criminally or morally liable.

22 Q. And when you said in your direct examination that you assumed

23 where this could lead later, isn't it the case that you assumed that more

24 blood would be shed?

25 A. What I assumed was my personal assumption. I thought that all

Page 7054

1 these things that were going on for five months by that time were not

2 being resolved, and I thought that the goodwill is lacking to deal with

3 them. And that is what became the last straw, in my mind, and that's what

4 drove me to offer my resignation.

5 Q. In January of 1991, Milan Martic became the secretary of the SUP

6 in Knin; correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And that was because he was selected for that position, wasn't he,

9 because from August of 1990 until that time, he had emerged as the leader

10 of the Serb rebellion in the Krajina? Isn't that true?

11 A. Not true. I cannot make such judgements about somebody -- whether

12 somebody is a leader of the rebellion or not. History will make that

13 judgement.

14 Q. Well, sir, you told us in -- about a speech that Milan Martic made

15 in August of 1990 in which he said that the chequerboard will not fly in

16 Knin or will not come in Knin "as long as I'm chief of the police." But

17 you didn't tell us about anything else that he did from August of 1990

18 until January of 1991.

19 Now, it's not your position, is it, that simply because he made

20 that statement in the media in August of 1990 that suddenly he was

21 selected of all the possible candidates to be the chief of the SUP in

22 Knin, is it?

23 A. Mr. Prosecutor, when I said that he had stated that the

24 chequerboard flag would not be hoisted anywhere in Knin while he was an

25 official of the police, was reflected in that footage that we saw taken

Page 7055

1 outside the police station. That film propelled Milan Martic into media

2 attention and he became popular among the people. And as for the decision

3 to appoint him secretary of the Knin SUP, that was a political decision

4 made by the leadership of the SDS, of municipalities in SAO Krajina. I

5 never attended such meetings or any such gatherings, so I do not know for

6 what reasons they appointed him and not somebody else. Equally, 10 days

7 before I arrived at Knin, nobody dreamed that I would be the person.

8 Everybody thought it would be somebody else. And in the same way, I don't

9 know how it was decided that he would become secretary of the SUP. Maybe

10 there's a written decision we can refer to, but I cannot be the judge of

11 that.

12 Q. Well, sir, I want to ask you several questions now based on what

13 you've just told us.

14 First of all, in your direct examination, you said that Milan

15 Martic said in August, and I'm quoting now what you said: "As long as he

16 was in charge of the police, the chequerboard would never get in Knin."

17 It's at 6802.

18 And now when you've said it again you've changed it. You

19 said: "While he was an official of the police."

20 Are you now changing your testimony on that?

21 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I am not changing my testimony in the least. I

22 just want to make it clear that all that happened 16 years ago, and there

23 were many events involved and I have to keep the time-line clear in my

24 head. And when I said what I said about that film, I thought he said,

25 among other things, the words you quoted. I meant to say that it was

Page 7056

1 precisely that film that propelled him into media attention and it gave

2 him popularity on the Serb side and odium on the Croat side.

3 Q. You've made a reference to the fact that it's -- that it's 16

4 years ago. Are you having some difficulty because it's so long ago

5 remembering the time-line, remembering the exact sequence of events?

6 A. I am not having any particular difficulty, but without taking into

7 account some major events, that statement in itself is less memorable than

8 some other things.

9 At that time, statements were much less important to me than

10 killings, injuries and some other things. I still believe that things

11 that people said were much less important than the killing of people.

12 Milan Martic was at that time an official of the police of Knin, and after

13 that he was suspended from his job, and that statement was quoted in the

14 decision to suspend him as one of the reasons.

15 Q. So as you -- just to be clear, as you sit here today, it is still

16 your recollection that Milan Martic said that as long as -- and this is

17 again what you said in your direct examination, as long as he was in

18 charge of the police the chequerboard would never get into Knin. That's

19 still your recollection of what he said, right?

20 A. It's not true that it was said as long as he was at the head of

21 the police. He said as long as he was on the police force. So he was

22 speaking of himself as one among equals.

23 Q. So, in fact, now you are changing your -- you now recall it

24 differently than a few days ago? Because a few days ago you testified

25 that he said as long as he was in charge of the police. So is your

Page 7057

1 recollection now today different from what it was a few days ago?

2 A. Mr. Prosecutor, my recollection should not be different from my

3 recollection of a few days ago, but I -- although I may have said that his

4 words were "in charge of," it's not true, and that would have been wrong

5 even if he had said it. It would have identified him inaccurately. He

6 could have made such statements from the very start, and he probably did.

7 There must exist a recording of that statement where he said as

8 long as he's on the police force of Knin and as long as the police of Knin

9 itself exists. I'm pretty sure it's as long as he was on the police

10 force, not in charge.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Witness, if he would have made that statement

12 simply by being a member of the police and not in charge, how could that

13 statement affect whether or not the chequerboard flag would fly in Knin?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that would have made no

15 difference; those two wordings had the same weight. I just can't accept

16 it that the Prosecutor should put into my mouth such statements, although

17 in practical terms it would have been no different if he had said, "As

18 long as I'm in charge."

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: After that statement was made, did the chequerboard

20 flag fly in Knin?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. In 1995.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not talking about 1995. I'm talking about

23 immediately after he made that statement, for the months following the

24 statement. I see you shake your head. I'm not quite sure what you're

25 saying.

Page 7058

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the new flag of the

2 Republic of Croatia did not fly at that time in Knin. It was not hoisted

3 on top of buildings, of institutions, or masts or whatever.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Specifically not at the police station?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No where, no where, not that I saw.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Whiting.

7 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. Aside from this statement that you have now testified about and

9 given several -- now at least two versions of, in August of 1990 can you

10 tell the Trial Chamber any other act that Milan Martic did or any other

11 thing that he did that led to him being selected as the chief of the SUP

12 in Knin in 1991?

13 A. I cannot recall anything that he had done to be selected.

14 MR. WHITING: Could we go into private session, please?

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.

16 [Private session]

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 7059

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 [Open session]

12 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

14 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Q. Now, you testified that in January of 1991 Milan Martic urged the

16 Serbs in the Krajina to return their weapons and, in fact, we looked at a

17 document which is in evidence, it has two different numbers, 891 and 515.

18 Do you remember this testimony?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Were you aware that in fact Milan Martic did not support returning

21 all of the weapons that were possessed by the Serbs? Did you know that?

22 A. I didn't.

23 MR. WHITING: Could we look, please, at Exhibit 496? This is

24 again --

25 Q. I'm going to show you again a portion of the interview with Milan

Page 7060

1 Martic from October of 1994. And if we could go to page 7 in the English

2 and page 8 in the B/C/S, and in English the ERN is 5510.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you ...

4 MR. WHITING: I'm sorry, I'm waiting. Now we have 5510 up on the

5 English. I was waiting for them both to be up.

6 In the English I would draw the attention to the last answer, and

7 it's on the screen for the B/C/S. It's the -- the answer -- and I'll just

8 read it out: "I remember that day well. It was in January 1991 when

9 Vasiljevic came to Knin. We talked in this very building. He tried to

10 convince me to return back the ..." - if we could go to the next page in

11 English - "... weapons taken from the police station that we distributed

12 to the population."

13 Now, sir, you'll have to tell me when, Mr. Witness, when you can't

14 see it anymore on the B/C/S because I'm just reading the English. I think

15 we are still -- yeah, if we could scroll down a little bit more, a little

16 bit more, right there.

17 "He also wanted me to give back the weapons that the people bought

18 after selling cattle or something else from their houses. I agreed to

19 return all the weapons we took from the police station in order to give

20 the JNA another chance to disarm the paramilitary army."

21 And then I want to skip down in the English to the next answer

22 that reads "General Vasiljevic," and you'll have to scroll down a little

23 bit on the B/C/S. Just the beginning of it appears now. Yeah.

24 "General Vasiljevic tried very hard to persuade me that the JNA

25 was going to do everything to protect the Serbs. I didn't trust him,

Page 7061

1 though, seeing what the JNA had done so far to protect us. Fortunately I

2 didn't allow all the weapons to be returned, neither the weapons the

3 people bought by themselves, nor all the weapons we took from the police

4 station. We bought some weapons from Serbs working abroad, got some from

5 JNA Serb patriot officers secretly from the storages. We got some from

6 people we didn't like, like Slovenia and even Croatia."

7 Now, did you, sir, know anything about the fact that Milan Martic

8 did not in fact all the weapons to be returned, now that you've seen that?

9 Does that refresh your recollection about any information that you had

10 about that?

11 A. Esteemed Prosecutor, this does not jog my memory at all about what

12 happened at the time. All I see is new information, information that I'm

13 entirely unfamiliar with. For example, this is the first I hear of this

14 particular event, Vasiljevic's arrival. This is probably General

15 Vasiljevic. It was a well known name across the former Yugoslavia at the

16 time. But I've never seen this interview before and I've never heard of

17 this before.

18 Q. Thank you. I'll move on, then, to another topic since you don't

19 know anything about this. And the topic is cooperation with the Croatian

20 Ministry of the Interior. You testified that after Milan Martic became

21 the secretary of the SUP, that cooperation with the Croatian Ministry of

22 the Interior continued. But it's true, isn't it, that the Krajina

23 Secretariat of the Interior declared that the Croatian MUP no longer had

24 any authority in the SAO Krajina? Isn't that true? In January of 1991?

25 A. Yes.

Page 7062

1 Q. At some point in your testimony you testified about Golubic, about

2 a training centre in Golubic, and in your testimony it was in reference to

3 the years 1993, I believe. You're aware, are you not, that the training

4 camp in Golubic was set up in March or April of 1991, right? You knew

5 that.

6 A. I didn't know that specifically. In terms of the time-line, I

7 know that the training camp in Golubic was set up. I'm not sure if it was

8 in March, April, or May. It's not something that I can remember

9 specifically, but it was around that time that the camp in Golubic was set

10 up. It was by May 1991, at least based on what I knew about what was

11 going on.

12 Q. You knew that this camp was financed by the Ministry of the

13 Interior of Serbia, didn't you?

14 A. No. I didn't. Nor did I ever say anything about that. That

15 can't be gleaned from any of my various statements, the simple reason

16 being I did not know.

17 Q. Did you ever go to Golubic in 1991?

18 A. The first time I went to Golubic was before the war. There was a

19 youth complex there and I was in the camp back in 1991 on the day --

20 Q. Okay. I was just going to ask you to please focus on my question.

21 My question was did you ever go to Golubic in 1991. So I'm sure you're

22 anxious to get home. If you could just answer that question and then

23 we'll move on.

24 A. Mr. Prosecutor, you are very, very right when you say I can hardly

25 wait to leave. You couldn't possibly be more right. I'm in a hurry to

Page 7063

1 get home, and I could make things easier on myself by saying yes, yes, but

2 I wish to offer further elucidations just in order to put us all in the

3 picture.

4 Q. Sir, believe me I want you to give truthful and complete and

5 accurate answers. I do. However, it's not necessary most of the time to

6 give further elucidations. You just really need to answer the questions

7 and then you'll get your wish to get home more quickly.

8 So let's go back to this question: Did you ever go to Golubic in

9 1991?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. When in 1991?

12 A. In May 1991, when we were tasked with disarming the population in

13 Potkonje and Vrpolje.

14 Q. So you went there simply as a kind of staging before you went to

15 Potkonje and Vrpolje? Is that your testimony?

16 A. Yes, that's right.

17 Q. Did you go to Golubic on any other occasions aside from that one

18 in 1991?

19 A. I don't remember. I don't remember.

20 Q. I'll ask you some more questions about Golubic after the break.

21 MR. WHITING: But I think we've reached the time for the break,

22 Your Honours.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Lest I forget, I'm not quite sure I understand what

24 is meant by "staging," in context.

25 MR. WHITING: I'll try to clarify that after the break.

Page 7064

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. We will take the break and come back at

2 quarter to 11.00.

3 Court adjourned.

4 --- Recess taken at 10.15 a.m.

5 --- On resuming at 10.47 a.m.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Whiting.

7 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. Witness, before the break we were talking about Golubic and I used

9 the word "staging." Let me see if I can clarify that. Is it your

10 testimony that before the action on Potkonje and Vrpolje that you gathered

11 and met in Golubic before proceeding to Vrpolje and Potkonje?

12 A. I think that was the case, yes.

13 Q. And so was it just -- were you in Golubic on that occasion just

14 for a matter of hours or was it even less time than that or was it more

15 time than that?

16 A. Even less time than that. There was the preparation, there was

17 the meeting, and then after the operation, there was a dinner.

18 Q. A dinner? Was that dinner at Golubic?

19 A. Yes, a dinner just after the operation. We stopped to eat at

20 Golubic.

21 Q. So you also testified that you don't recall being there on any --

22 in Golubic on any other occasion in 1991. So I take it that you did not

23 go through training in Golubic yourself, did you?

24 A. No.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I just get clarity on one point? You said yes,

Page 7065

1 dinner, just after the operation. Is it therefore your testimony that you

2 went to Golubic before you went to these two villages, and when you came

3 back from the operation you went back to Golubic again?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

6 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. You are aware, are you not, that special units, members of special

8 units, were trained at Golubic and these special units were then attached

9 to various public security stations in the SAO Krajina? Is that accurate?

10 A. At the time I was working at the station in Knin. In the station

11 itself, there was no room and nearby were stationed members of some

12 special units. I remember that some police officers from Knin went to

13 Golubic to be trained. I don't know where they were sent later, or

14 whether police officers from other stations were being sent to Golubic for

15 training. This wasn't something that I was involved in. I didn't even go

16 to Golubic myself to see what was going on and I certainly took no

17 decisions in connection with that.

18 Q. Are you aware that these so-called special units participated in

19 fighting during the war in 1991?

20 A. It's very difficult for me to provide a specific answer to that.

21 At that time, back in 1991, I only knew about the Knin station. Some of

22 its members had been involved in the fighting at Plitvica, some other

23 operations and the disarming of Potkonje. I don't know about any other

24 operations. I don't know where they were carried out or who was involved.

25 Q. Well, you testified in respect of Bosko Drazic, and this is

Page 7066

1 jumping ahead a little bit in time, that he "was busy with the special

2 units. There is a strong military aspect to that sort of work."

3 So later in 1992, when you went to Benkovac, did you -- did you

4 learn then that the special units were in fact involved in military

5 actions?

6 A. Later, when I arrived in Benkovac, I heard that some of the

7 smaller units had taken part in military operations, but all of those were

8 stories I heard upon my arrival in Benkovac and the stories were in

9 relation to a previous period back in 1991 and partly in 1992.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: What do you mean by "smaller units"?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, when I say "smaller

12 units," I mean groups of police officers comprising between 10 and 30

13 officers. Those comprising 10 were called squads and those comprising 30

14 were called platoons but by no means brigades or any other major units.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: The question was not about smaller units. The

16 question was about special units. The question was: Later -- so later

17 in -- "So later in 1992, when you went to Benkovac, did you learn then

18 that the special units were in fact involved in military actions?"

19 That's the question.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I did learn, and I heard, but

21 that wasn't before later on in 1992.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: So please do answer the question directly. Then we

23 wouldn't have wasted that time.

24 Mr. Whiting, proceed, please.

25 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 7067

1 Q. I want to turn now to what happened in Potkonje. You would agree

2 with me, would you not, that the population of Potkonje in 1991 was

3 95 per cent Croat and about 5 per cent Serb?

4 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I'm not familiar with the exact information. One

5 thing that is certain is that Potkonje was a predominantly Croat village.

6 I'm not sure about the exact percentages but there were a good deal more

7 Croats. That much is certain.

8 Q. I understand you may not know the exact percentage but that

9 percentage, when you say "predominantly Croat," would you agree that it's

10 almost completely Croat, that is over 90 per cent Croat?

11 A. I would tend to agree, yes.

12 Q. Now, you testified that you never received an order "that involved

13 making a difference between citizens based on their ethnic, political,

14 religious or any other affiliation."

15 Do you remember that testimony?

16 A. I do. And I still believe that my behaviour conformed with that.

17 Q. But then just a few minutes after you said that, and actually it

18 appears on the next page in the transcript, at 6847, you testified that

19 you received an order to disarm the Croats in Potkonje who had armed

20 themselves. Wasn't that an order directed at an ethnic group, the Croats?

21 A. If you look at that particular operation, I suppose you could say

22 that this was the case.

23 Q. And just to take this one step further, you testified that in the

24 fall of 1990, the Serb population in the Knin municipality had armed

25 itself but that the police were unwilling to disarm the Serb population

Page 7068

1 because it would pit them against the population, but the police took a

2 different approach when it came to the village of Potkonje. There, the

3 police was willing to act and to disarm the population. Would you agree

4 with me that those -- the approaches in those two cases were different?

5 A. Yes, the approaches were different, but the problems were

6 different too. In the first case, you had --

7 Q. I'm going to interrupt you. Isn't it -- in both cases, wasn't it

8 a case where the population had armed itself? In the Knin municipality in

9 1990 it was the Serb population, and in April of 1991 we are talking about

10 the Croat population? So isn't it the -- in fact the same problem that

11 both populations had armed themselves?

12 A. It was true in both cases, the population armed itself. In the

13 first case with hunting rifles, and in the second case with military

14 rifles, and much more dangerous weapons. That applied to the Croatian

15 population, and that was the difference.

16 Q. And you -- in your mind -- well, I'm not going to press that.

17 You would agree with me, would you not, that the attack on

18 Potkonje had a devastating psychological effect on the Croatian population

19 there?

20 A. I would agree with that, yes.

21 Q. And is it true that -- that approximately 60 members of the

22 SAO Krajina police participated in the attack?

23 A. Well, roughly speaking. I don't remember specifically, but we

24 might leave it at that figure.

25 Q. It's true, isn't it, that during the attack on Potkonje, the

Page 7069

1 police fired their weapons in the air --

2 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, objection.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Milovancevic.

4 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] I decided not to spring to my

5 feet. Twice in a row the Prosecutor is entitled to his own position

6 needless to say, but this is the third time in a row in relation to

7 Potkonje that the Prosecutor speaks about an attack. At no point during

8 the examination-in-chief did the witness define this as an attack. He

9 defined it as a police operation to seize illegal weapons. At no point

10 did he claim that this was an attack. So these are two very different

11 things.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Whiting?.

13 MR. WHITING: Given the evidence I'm not sure I appreciate the

14 distinction, but I'm happy to use the word "police operation." That's

15 fine.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: I think if -- I may be wrong here, but my

17 recollection of the witness's testimony in chief was that he called it a

18 disarming.

19 MR. WHITING: I think that's correct. I'm happy to use the --

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.


22 Q. It's true, sir, isn't it, that during the police operation on

23 Potkonje, the police fired their weapons in the air? Isn't that true,

24 sir?

25 A. Yes, it's true.

Page 7070

1 Q. And it's true that houses were searched?

2 A. Yes, yes, they were searched.

3 Q. It's also true, isn't it, that several inhabitants were arrested

4 and taken to the prison in Knin?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. It's true, isn't it, that maybe not on that day or the next day

7 but as a result of this operation, a number of residents of Potkonje left,

8 decided to leave the area?

9 A. I'm not aware of that. I don't know about that.

10 Q. Well, you would agree with me, would you not, that in -- at that

11 time period in April or May of 1991, Croats were leaving the area of Knin;

12 correct?

13 A. They probably were, but I didn't know the people well, and I don't

14 know anyone in particular who left. Maybe a small number left. It's

15 probable that a small number left because Serbs were coming in from other

16 towns who were swapping property with Croats, and those people who left

17 were replaced by the incoming Serbs. I don't know anyone in particular

18 who left, to be able to draw that conclusion.

19 Q. Okay. I didn't ask you if you knew anybody in particular. And if

20 we could look at your statement again, and I don't know if it's -- if it's

21 available. Okay. The Trial Chamber has it. I don't know if the -- yes.

22 Thank you. If it could be provided to the witness.

23 And if we could look at page 4, please. It's page 4 in English

24 and page 4 in the B/C/S. And I draw your attention to the paragraph that

25 begins: "In April and May 1991, a search of weapons in two villages

Page 7071

1 predominantly inhabited by Croats took place."

2 Do you see that paragraph, sir?

3 A. I do.

4 Q. Now, I won't read through that paragraph but that paragraph

5 describes the police action in Potkonje; is that correct?

6 A. Yes, it does.

7 Q. Now, if you would look at the first sentence of the very next

8 paragraph, please. "Croats were moving out of the Knin area."

9 A. Yes. It's written.

10 Q. And that's true, isn't it?

11 A. I said even earlier that it's probably true, and I suppose it is

12 and it's probably right.

13 Q. Well, there is a difference between saying it's true and it's

14 probably true. In the statement it doesn't say it's probably true. It

15 says: "Croats were moving out of the Knin area." That's true, isn't it?

16 A. To be 100 per cent sure, I would have had to know somebody

17 personally and know that he or she had left. But some new people had

18 arrived and occupied some apartments in the town of Knin, and I assume

19 that they moved out in that way, with those people coming in to take their

20 place.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Witness, you are saying to be 100 per cent sure you

22 would have had to know somebody personally and know that he or she had

23 left. Is it -- were you not telling the truth when you gave the statement

24 and you said Croats were moving out of Knin area? Because you didn't know

25 anybody personally to be Croat. So you were not telling the truth when

Page 7072

1 you made the statement?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I always thought and I

3 always meant and I think I did speak the truth. When I gave that

4 statement, we didn't go into details, whether I meant somebody by name or

5 not. I was just saying --

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Witness, nobody has asked you for a name today.

7 The question to you is: Is it true that Croats left the Knin area? Your

8 answer to that question is either going to be a yes, it is true, no, it is

9 not true. Now, if you say today that because you knew nobody personally

10 you cannot therefore say that Croats left Knin then you must have been

11 telling an untruth when you said in this statement that Croats left the

12 Knin area. Isn't it logical?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's logical that at that time some

14 people were being moved out, probably Serbs. Surely, since Serbs were

15 coming in and Serbs were not going to go to some place in Croatia, that's

16 why I'm saying this Croats were leaving, and I stand by that statement

17 that Croats were moving out at that time, but I said that based on those

18 assumptions. Based on the assumption that new inhabitants were coming in.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're not being asked about your assumptions. You

20 confirm -- do you confirm now as you sit there that Croats at that time

21 left the Knin area?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I confirm they were leaving.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

24 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Q. Now, Witness, you have told us today that the attack on Potkonje

Page 7073

1 had a devastating psychological effect on the Croat population there. And

2 in your statement the description of what happened in Potkonje comes right

3 before your statement that Croats were moving out of the Knin area. Isn't

4 it fair to say that there is a connection between those events, that

5 the -- and I apologise, I again said the attack on Potkonje. The police

6 operation on Potkonje and the effect that it had, that that caused people

7 to leave? Isn't that true?

8 A. Mr. Prosecutor, it was the decision of the person who took down

9 that statement that he put one paragraph before and another after. People

10 were leaving even before the events in Potkonje and Vrpolje but it is

11 certain that those events and the seizure of weapons in Potkonje and

12 Vrpolje had an impact in terms of intensified resettlements of Croats away

13 from that area.

14 Q. Now, are you aware that during that police operation on Potkonje

15 an individual by the name -- a villager from Potkonje named Zarko Batic

16 [phoen] was wounded in the head with a firearm? Do you know that?

17 A. I know -- I know that somebody was wounded and I think this could

18 be the man.

19 Q. Do you know that he was wounded in the head with a firearm?

20 A. I think so.

21 Q. In fact, sir, you were charged criminally by the Croatian

22 government for your participation in the police operation on Potkonje;

23 isn't that true?

24 A. I don't know about that.

25 Q. This is the first time you're hearing that you were charged

Page 7074

1 criminally by the Croatian government for your participation in this

2 attack -- police operation?

3 A. You mean I personally was charged?

4 Q. Yes. You personally. Is this the first time you're hearing that?

5 A. This is the first time I'm hearing of this, from you.

6 Q. Let's move on to your -- the next event, and I'm just trying to --

7 I'm pausing for a moment to see if we need to move into private session

8 but I don't think we do.

9 You testified that you were relieved from your post in May of

10 1991. So that would have been just after the events in Potkonje; is that

11 correct?

12 A. Well, whether it was in late May or early June, I would include it

13 in the major events of that period.

14 Q. And you were then given a lower-ranking position of being an

15 inspector; is that correct?

16 A. Correct.

17 Q. You then describe going back to your village, and let's not name

18 your name, and that armed patrols were instituted in your village for

19 reasons of protection; correct?

20 A. Correct.

21 Q. And I presume that you thought then and think today that it was a

22 normal thing to do to have a kind of village guard in your village to

23 protect the village; correct?

24 A. I'm sorry, I didn't quite understand which period you mean.

25 Q. I'm talking about when you went back to your village in June/July

Page 7075

1 of 1991 and you testified that a village guard was instituted. I think

2 your testimony was that it had already begun being instituted when you got

3 there and it continued to be instituted. I take it that you thought then

4 and think today that that was a justified thing to do under the

5 circumstances, to protect your village with a kind of village guard,

6 right?

7 A. I believe that at that time it was justified.

8 Q. You then -- you describe a clash that occurred. And from what I

9 could judge, from the sequence of your evidence, it seems to have occurred

10 in August of 1991, a clash in your village with Croat forces; is that

11 right?

12 A. Don't know which clash you mean, but if you mean the first clash

13 in that area, when a vehicle of the Croat -- Croatian police was

14 attacked --

15 Q. No, I'm referring to the clash that the JNA then intervened to

16 establish a buffer. Do you recall that clash that you testified about?

17 A. Yes. I remember that. I recall that.

18 Q. And am I right, was that in August of 1991?

19 A. You're right.

20 Q. You testified that the JNA -- that JNA planes launched rockets at

21 certain targets in Croat-held areas but that these areas were in fact

22 empty and that the JNA planes were just trying to scare the enemy. Now,

23 the enemy that you're referring to there is the Croat forces, the Croat

24 police forces; isn't that right?

25 A. Yes. That relates to Croat forces.

Page 7076

1 Q. And you would agree with me, would you not, that from the Croatian

2 side, if rockets are being launched to scare them, that it would look like

3 the JNA was not simply trying to intervene to create a buffer but that it

4 was, in fact, acting on behalf of the Serb side? Would you agree that

5 from the Croatian side that that's how things would look?

6 A. I would not agree as far as that area is concerned, because I and

7 the locals were not on the offensive in that area. On the contrary, we

8 were on the defensive. We were withdrawing into one part of the village

9 from which, if we were in danger, we were able to flee more easily and

10 save our skins, whereas the forces of the ZNG, the Croatian home guard,

11 were actively attacking. And as far as I know, there were no casualties

12 when those planes did what they did.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I just understand the situation here? Were you

14 part of the planes? Were you in the planes yourself or were you on the

15 ground with the -- with the territorial authority of the -- of that area,

16 of the Serbs?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, at the time of that

18 attack, I was on the ground with my --

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Thank you. Now you're being asked

20 about the attack by the planes. Why do you answer about -- answer to what

21 you on the ground were doing? The question doesn't relate to what you

22 were doing on the ground. The question relates to what you think the

23 Croats would have thought of what the planes did, not what you on the

24 ground were doing. Can you answer that question, please? If you have

25 forgotten, Mr. Whiting will repeat it for you. Have you forgotten?

Page 7077

1 MR. WHITING: He nodded. I believe it would perhaps be helpful if

2 I repeated it.

3 Q. Would you -- wouldn't you agree with me that from the Croatian

4 side, from their perspective, if rockets are being launched into their

5 area by the JNA, by JNA planes, that from their perspective it would look

6 like the JNA was not simply trying to intervene to stop the fighting and

7 create a buffer but that it was in fact acting on behalf of the Serb side?

8 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, objection.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Milovancevic? We are waiting.

10 THE INTERPRETER: He's just waiting for the interpretation, Your

11 Honour.

12 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] The witness did not say that

13 the aviation fired targeting Croat territory. The Prosecutor is asking

14 his question and building into that question things that the witness had

15 never mentioned.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: What did the witness say, Mr. Milovancevic,

17 according to you?

18 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] He said very clearly that they

19 were in one part of the village where they had withdrawn, that they were

20 under attack from the MUP and the home guard corps, whereas the JNA

21 intervened and fired on a clearing, on empty ground, in order to stop this

22 operation.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Maybe we should go to the text and quote that,

24 Mr. Whiting.

25 MR. WHITING: Yes, I'll quote the text. It's transcript 6866, and

Page 7078

1 this is during direct examination on the 21st of August. And the witness

2 said: "And one thing I can say is that in the afternoon, JNA fighter

3 planes in two pairs, two by two, flew over the area and rocketed certain

4 targets in the Croat-held area."

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: I hope you're listening, Mr. Milovancevic.

6 MR. WHITING: "We realised that the planes were firing missiles

7 into empty areas. There were no soldiers there or anything. I thought

8 all they were trying to do it was to scare the enemy to keep the conflict

9 from spreading."

10 And I believe in my question I accurately quoted that.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: The objection is overruled.

12 I'm being informed that what you just read out now was in private

13 session, Mr. Whiting.

14 MR. WHITING: That may be so, but I don't think that there is

15 anything in there that would identify the witness.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't think so either.


18 Q. Now, sir, I'll -- out of fairness to you, because we've had an

19 interruption, I'll put the question to you again so you have in it mind.

20 Wouldn't you agree with me that from the Croatian side, from their

21 perspective, if rockets are being launched into their area by the JNA by

22 JNA planes, that from their perspective it would look like the JNA was not

23 simply trying to intervene to stop the fighting and create a buffer but

24 that it was in fact acting on behalf of the Serb side? Would you agree

25 with me?

Page 7079

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Milovancevic.

2 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is a

3 question for a Croatian witness, somebody who was involved in that

4 operation. How could the witness who was just defending himself know what

5 Croats felt?

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: The objection is overruled.

7 You may proceed.


9 Q. I'm not inclined to repeat the question again, unless you want me

10 to, Mr. Witness. Are you able to respond to the question? Would you

11 agree with me in what I said?

12 A. I would not agree.

13 Q. So in your view, acting to create a buffer and to stop the

14 conflict includes attacking one side or the area of one side in order to

15 scare that side?

16 A. In my opinion, the Yugoslav People's Army was at that time

17 attacking the party that was attacking; whereas my side, the side I was

18 on, did not need to be militarily engaged by the JNA because we wanted the

19 attack to stop. We wanted peace. When two men are fighting, you don't

20 need to hit the one who is lying on the ground without offering any

21 resistance. That's how I see the situation.

22 Q. We'll move on.

23 You returned to the Knin police station in October or November of

24 1991; is that correct?

25 A. Correct.

Page 7080

1 MR. WHITING: Could we move into private session, please?

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session?

3 [Private session]

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 7081











11 Pages 7081-7084 redacted. Private session.















Page 7085

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 [Open session]

7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.

9 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. I want to ask you now about Bruska and what you learned about

11 Bruska, what had happened in Bruska. You testified that when you went to

12 Benkovac in April of 1992, you went through files to familiarise yourself

13 with the overall situation in the Benkovac municipality. Do you remember

14 that testimony?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And then you were asked by the Trial Chamber, by His Honour Judge

17 Hoepfel, about the investigation of the massacre in Bruska which had

18 occurred in December of 1991, and you responded: "There was information

19 to indicate that the massacre at Bruska had been committed by mistake by a

20 Croatian sabotage force that had been infiltrated into the area."

21 Now, sir, you know perfectly well, don't you, that the surviving

22 victims of the massacre identified the perpetrators as being members of

23 the SAO Krajina Police? Don't you know that?

24 A. First I hear of it.

25 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the question is

Page 7086

1 capricious. None of the damaged partners who were survivors of the

2 incident gave the names of the perpetrators, and to infer that the victims

3 identified the perpetrators is entirely inaccurate. They only spoke about

4 what sort of clothes the perpetrators were wearing and how they had

5 introduced themselves; that is, as belonging to the police or not

6 belonging to the police. But not a single perpetrator was ever

7 identified.

8 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I didn't say anything about a

9 perpetrator being identified. I said exactly that, that they were

10 identified as being members of the SAO Krajina Police.

11 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Well, in other languages, this word "identified"

12 maybe means specific identification. I would also understand that in

13 German, for example.

14 MR. WHITING: I understand. I didn't appreciate that. I

15 certainly did not mean to say that the specific perpetrators had been

16 identified, only that they had been described as members of the

17 SAO Krajina Police.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Milovancevic, you were on your feet?

19 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my learned friend

20 failed in fact to say that they were identified as Krajina police

21 officers. He just told the witness that the perpetrators had been

22 identified by the victims. This is a very specific claim and that was the

23 claim that I was responding to.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, let us look at the transcript,

25 Mr. Milovancevic, because I don't think ...

Page 7087

1 MR. WHITING: Your Honour there may have been an interpretation

2 issue, and I can try to rephrase. To expedite the matter, I can just

3 rephrase it.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Rephrase, please.


6 Q. Let's begin again. You are -- you're aware, aren't you, sir, that

7 the surviving victims of the massacre described the perpetrators as being

8 members of the SAO Krajina Police; correct?

9 A. I'm not aware of it.

10 Q. This is really the first time you're hearing of that?

11 A. Truly, this is the very first time.

12 Q. Let's look, please, at Exhibit 134 in evidence. This document is

13 a little difficult to read, if we could just blow it up a little bit.

14 Now, this is a -- this is an official record from the Benkovac

15 Public Security Service from the 25th of December, 1991. And it's a --

16 records a -- information given by one of the survivors of the massacre,

17 and if we could just scroll down -- my question is going to be --

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Your learned friend is on his feet.

19 MR. WHITING: I was not aware.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: So Mr. Milovancevic.

21 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, based on this

22 document and the witness's answer, it is quite obvious that the witness

23 was not physically present at the Benkovac public security station at the

24 time this event occurred and that was what the witness said. He said: "I

25 know nothing more about this event." He said he knew about certain

Page 7088

1 aspects about what happened but by no means the event in its entirety.

2 I'm not sure what the foundation is for the Prosecutor to be

3 showing the witness this particular document, especially given the fact

4 that the Defence did not delve into these particular aspects during our

5 examination-in-chief.


7 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I have to say these frequent objections

8 disrupting the cross-examination, I would really object to. This

9 objection is baseless. The foundation for the question is that the

10 witness testified that he reviewed the files in Benkovac when he came, and

11 he in his direct examination gave us information, his knowledge, what he

12 had learned about who the alleged perpetrators were. And so that is --

13 I'm going to ask him to --

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: The alleged perpetrators that are dealt with in

15 this document.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the President, please.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: The alleged perpetrators of -- that are mentioned

18 also in this document, isn't it?

19 MR. WHITING: Well, no. He identified different alleged

20 perpetrators. And so my question is going to be: Did he see this

21 document, was he made aware of it, did he have information about it?

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic, do you have any response to

23 that?

24 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, again, I just

25 don't see the foundation. I don't see the foundation to pursue this

Page 7089

1 matter since the witness wasn't working there, since he wasn't in charge

2 of the investigation, since he knows nothing about it. Today, in

3 cross-examination again we find him saying, "I know nothing about that" in

4 addition to having such and such information, which is, after all,

5 information that he has already shared with us.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may not see the foundation. The Chamber does

7 see the foundation. The witness said he read the files, and the objection

8 is overruled.

9 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. Now, Witness, have you had an opportunity to read over this

11 document, and do you see in particular that the victim describes somebody

12 knocking at the door and an unfamiliar male voice responded: "The police,

13 the police," and then again responded, that same voice responded: "The

14 Krajina Police"?

15 Do you see that in the document, sir?

16 A. I see that.

17 Q. In your review of the files in Benkovac in April of 1992 and

18 thereafter to familiarise yourself with cases that were going on, did you

19 see this document?

20 A. Your Honour, Mr. Prosecutor, I don't remember ever saying in my

21 statement that I had gone through the files. I was in fact just

22 familiarising myself with all the different cases, and these are, after

23 all, two very different things. I would not have been physically able to

24 go through such an enormous amount of different cases. I was no miracle

25 worker. I couldn't just have looked at a file and known immediately who

Page 7090

1 the perpetrator had been. I couldn't have issued orders to that effect as

2 a result. My associates were with me at the time. They were in charge of

3 certain investigations, and they were the persons familiarising me, giving

4 me a low-down on what exactly what is going on.

5 When I said I was familiar with that, that was precisely what I

6 had in mind. By no means was I implying that I had gone through every

7 single file. Those were literally mountains of files and there was no way

8 I would have been able to go through all of it. What I shared with you I

9 shared in the best possible faith and to the best of my knowledge and

10 ability. And that applies in relation to this and a whole series of

11 other --

12 Q. Sir, I'm going to interrupt you, if I may. I'm going to read to

13 you what you said on direct examination, which is why I asked this

14 question, and you confirmed it in fact just a few minutes ago in your

15 cross-examination. You said --

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before you proceed, there was a little bit of a

17 concern from Judge Hoepfel that shouldn't we go into private session? I

18 didn't see the need but ...

19 JUDGE HOEPFEL: I would like to go more into details.

20 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I don't believe that these questions in

21 the direct examination were in private session, his knowledge. I think as

22 long as -- basically we stayed away from his position. But if the Trial

23 Chamber or the Defence believes that we should move into private session,

24 I'm happy to ask that.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Maybe let's do just so that at least we will still

Page 7091

1 know what is taking --

2 May the Chamber please move into private session?

3 [Private session]

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 7092











11 Pages 7092-7104 redacted. Private session.















Page 7105

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 [Open session]

16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.

18 Yes, Mr. Whiting.

19 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honours.

20 Q. I want to ask you some questions about the UN civilian police or

21 UNCIVPOL. You were asked if UNCIVPOL had powers to conduct their own

22 investigations on the ground, and your response was: "I don't know what

23 powers they had. They never told us."

24 But didn't you know that the role of UNCIVPOL was a strictly

25 monitoring role? They did not -- their job was not to investigate crimes?

Page 7106

1 Isn't that right?

2 A. As regards the civilian police of the United Nations, I know what

3 they told me, and I know about the work we did together. What they did

4 independently of me and my men, I don't know.

5 Q. No. But my question is they had a strict -- their function was

6 only to monitor what was happening and what the police were doing. They

7 did not have a function of investigating crimes. Is that correct?

8 A. I would agree with you.

9 Q. Now, I want to ask you some questions about events that occurred

10 around Benkovac after April of 1992, because that's where you were, and

11 presumably that's the area that you have information about; is that

12 correct?

13 A. Yes, that's the way it should be.

14 Q. Could we look, please, at Exhibit 729? And this won't be

15 broadcast, so there is no -- we just won't -- there is no danger about

16 compromising your identity, and we can remain in open session.

17 I'm just going to ask you, please, if you would, to look -- you

18 see there is one, two, three, and three says, operations -- "operational."

19 And then there is a big Roman numeral one underneath that. Sir, if you

20 could just -- yeah, that will make it easier for you to read it. Yeah,

21 keep going down, down, down. All the way down. There.

22 If you could just read that -- what's written under "operational"

23 and tell me when you get to the end of the page, and I'm going to ask you

24 when you're done with it if it's accurate.

25 MR. WHITING: And if we could also blow up the English version for

Page 7107

1 the benefit of the Trial Chamber.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "The monitors of the civilian police

3 from Kistanje accompanied by the local police visited" --


5 Q. Sir, I'm going to interrupt you. I'm sorry, I should have been

6 more clear. You can just read it to yourself; you don't need to read it

7 aloud. Just read that section to yourself.

8 And could we blow up the English to have the bottom of the page --

9 to make it more legible? I guess we have control over the English.

10 A. I've finished reading.

11 Q. Okay. Could we turn to the next page on the B/C/S? And if you

12 could just finish reading that last sentence there.

13 Is what is written there accurate?

14 And just so the record is clear, again we are looking at Roman

15 numeral I of part 3 of the report.

16 Sir, did you finish reading that, just that first section,

17 section I of this report?

18 A. I've finished.

19 Q. And is it accurate?

20 A. Sir, it's difficult to say whether it's accurate or not. A lot of

21 time has elapsed. When I look at this report, I can't see which period of

22 time it's in relation to, especially in reference to between 11 and 17

23 dead, as stated by myself, allegedly. But I can't remember informing the

24 civilian police about any rapes in the area. Believe me, throughout my

25 time in Benkovac I never heard anything about any rape. I can't for the

Page 7108

1 life of me remember anything about any rapes except --

2 Q. I'm going to -- except what?

3 A. Except for one particular case of rape that was falsely reported

4 by a Serb lady, an interpreter who was working with the UNPROFOR CIVPOL.

5 She reported a member of the Kenya Battalion as having raped her but that

6 was a false report. I can't remember any rapes being committed regardless

7 of who the victims might have been, in terms of ethnicity, Croat or Serb.

8 I simply can't remember. Nor do I remember myself reporting anything like

9 that.

10 Q. If we could turn to the first page of the B/C/S translation, and

11 perhaps I should have told you that this report has a date of the 22nd of

12 February, 1993. Now, now that you know the date of the report, does that

13 help you recollect anything in this report, or are you still unable to

14 remember?

15 A. Sir, I'm looking at the date, and I know that this was a month

16 after the attack on the villages in Benkovac municipality, after

17 Maslenica 93 operation. I know that there were murders of Croat

18 civilians. At the time, as I described earlier, there were many refugees

19 roaming about town in search of accommodation. The Benkovac Crisis Staff

20 helped with having some Croats from the area resettled else where.

21 Q. I'm just going to interrupt you because you've provided this

22 information in your direct examination. And my question really is now

23 that you know the date, can you tell us whether what's written there in

24 that first section that you read is accurate? About the report of 11 and

25 17 Croats have been murdered and one woman raped.

Page 7109

1 A. I can't remember the exact number of those killed. There were

2 Croats who were killed at the time. I've already explained about this

3 alleged case of rape. I'm not sure which period of time this report is in

4 reference to. The date is there but I'm not sure which period it covers

5 and how long the period is supposed to be.

6 Q. Well, let's look at the last sentence. Well, could we scroll

7 down, please, on the B/C/S?

8 The -- do you see the sentence there where it says that a certain

9 person confirmed information that for the past week, referring presumably

10 to the week before the 22nd of February, 1993, between 11 and 14 -- 11 and

11 17 Croats have been murdered and one woman raped? So now that you see

12 that it's the week prior to the report, does that refresh your

13 recollection that this, in fact, occurred and was reported as described in

14 the report?

15 A. This clarifies the situation to some extent. But it leads me to

16 believe that whoever wrote this did not draw a clear distinction between

17 the area covered by my station and the area that other stations were in

18 charge of, especially Obrovac and Kistanje. Try as hard as I might I

19 simply can't remember that over such a brief period of time, even in

20 February 1993, within a single week, between 11 and 17 Croats were killed.

21 This figure itself, 11 to 17, it's quite a range, isn't it? 11 is

22 a lot. But if I had told the civilian police anything about this, I would

23 have tried first of all to ascertain a more accurate figure. 11 to 17 is

24 quite vague, and if one deals with a crime, one necessarily tries to be

25 more specific than that as a police officer, and I certainly would have.

Page 7110

1 It seems quite a random figure.

2 There were killings when all of these things were happening, but I

3 can't remember a single case of rape for as long as I was in the area.

4 There were killings, there were murders at the time, but I can't say

5 exactly how many such incidents occurred because I simply don't have the

6 information.

7 Q. And is it fair to say that with respect to that sentence of the 11

8 to 17 being reported, you've given some information about the range and so

9 forth, but is it fair to say that you don't recollect that being reported?

10 A. I don't. I really don't remember.

11 Q. Now, could we turn to the next page? And I'm going to ask if you

12 can read to yourself the next section, section II of the report. If you

13 could just read that paragraph, section II, and then I'll ask you the same

14 question, if you can tell us whether that's accurate or not and whether

15 you recall it.

16 A. I do recall this case.

17 Q. And is it accurately described in this paragraph, section II of

18 the report?

19 A. I believe so. I would lend credence to this information. There

20 is no reason why it shouldn't be accurate.

21 MR. WHITING: Can we go into private session, please?

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session?

23 [Private session]

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 7111











11 Pages 7111-7114 redacted. Private session.















Page 7115

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 [Open session]

25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.

Page 7116

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

2 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Q. Now, just in relation to a previous answer, you said that the army

4 of the Republic of Serbian Krajina was the only existing -- one of the

5 only existing legal armed units in the Krajina. But you're aware, are you

6 not, that the -- under the Vance Plan, the Krajina was supposed to be

7 demilitarised, meaning no armed forces. Correct?

8 A. It is correct that under the Vance Plan no army was allowed in the

9 area. I do believe, however, that the army of the Republic of Serbian

10 Krajina was established sometime after the aggression on Ravni Kotari and

11 Maslenica. I'm not sure about the dates but, yes, it must have been later

12 on. Because up until the attack the only thing that there had been was

13 the Ministry of the Interior. There were two different kinds of

14 formation: Units that were in charge of policing, police work, and

15 special purpose units, whose task was to watch the borders, to a lower

16 extent, and also to cooperate with the civilian element of UNPROFOR.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: With the military

18 element of UNPROFOR.


20 Q. Well, now I have to say I'm a little confused, because the attack

21 on Maslenica was in January of 1993; isn't that correct?

22 A. Correct. Correct, sir.

23 Q. And the -- in fact, the army was declared by -- established by

24 Milan Martic, I believe, in May of 1993; isn't that correct? As you say,

25 after the attack on Maslenica.

Page 7117

1 A. I think it was after the attack on Maslenica that the army was

2 organised.

3 Q. Well, May 1993 is after the attack on Maslenica. Well, I'll come

4 back to this question, these questions, later.

5 Now, you testified that in 1993, Serb refugees -- this is: "Serb

6 refugees would come to their homes," and their homes in context refers to

7 Croat homes, "and take their homes by force, move in by force."

8 Do you recall that testimony?

9 A. I do.

10 Q. And you testified also that in Benkovac and Knin there were very

11 few officers to deal with these problems. You remember that testimony?

12 It was at 6915.

13 A. I think there is a problem with the interpretation. You probably

14 meant -- what you probably meant to say is that there were very few

15 soldiers, members of the army, to deal with these problems, not officers.

16 Q. Okay. Well, I'm just reading from the transcript, and it's at

17 6915 on the 22nd of August. "I later heard that this was the case in

18 Knin, and other villages around Knin such as Vrpolje were experiencing

19 some degree of difficulty because Serb refugees would come to their homes

20 and take their homes by force, move in by force, in order to have

21 somewhere to stay, a roof over their heads. In both Benkovac and Knin,

22 there were very few police officers remaining in the area to uphold law

23 and order and to deal with the sort of problems that the police usually

24 have to deal with, that is, that constitute usual police work."

25 So is it not your testimony that there were very few police

Page 7118

1 officers to deal with these episodes of Serb refugees taking homes

2 belonging to Croats by force?

3 A. Sir, I now understand your question. The first time around, the

4 interpretation quoted the word "officers" not policemen. When one speaks

5 about this period, that is after the 22nd of January, 1993, most regular

6 policemen, both in Knin and in Benkovac as well as in Obrovac and

7 throughout the area, including Vrlika, because by this time the front line

8 at Peruca had become active near Sinj. They were all busy with the

9 ongoing combat operations, and we had all received orders to join the fray

10 in numbers as great as possible, because we were few, and at the time the

11 priority was to check the advance of the Croatian army. In practice, this

12 left very few policemen in the towns and villages.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm going to cut you short. The Chamber has a few

14 housekeeping issues to talk about before we knock off. Just stick to the

15 question please, very short and very concise and very succinct. Thank

16 you very much.


18 Q. Sir, I just will ask one follow-on from that last answer, and that

19 is: When you received these orders to join the fray, that is the

20 fighting, who did you receive the orders from?

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 MR. WHITING: We'll obviously need a redaction of that answer.

25 Q. And did you understand that secretary -- the Secretary Prijic

Page 7119

1 received his orders from Milan Martic?

2 A. That's how it was supposed to be.

3 Q. Now just to go back to what we were talking about, you said just a

4 moment ago that in practice this left very few policemen. So just to be

5 clear about your testimony, it's your testimony that there were very few

6 policemen who were available to deal with this problem of Serb refugees

7 taking the homes of Croats by force. Is that your testimony?

8 A. Yes. That is my testimony, that there were few policemen, too few

9 to prevent --

10 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I just have one more question and then

11 if the Court --

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Go ahead. I was just stopping him from --

13 MR. WHITING: Oh, I see.

14 Q. But yet you've also testified that there were officers, there

15 were -- there were policemen available to escort Croats out of the RSK as

16 far as the Zemunik airport. And that's at 6916. Isn't it really the case

17 that there were officers available to help Croats leave but not to help

18 them stay?

19 A. Your Honours, I really have to clarify this.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just answer the question. We haven't got much

21 time.


23 Q. If you could just answer the question: There were officers, there

24 were policemen who were -- there were policemen available to escort the

25 Croats out of the RSK but there were not policemen available to help them

Page 7120

1 stay in their homes?

2 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, on everything

3 that the witness has said to the Prosecutor in the past few minutes, he

4 cannot be expected to say yes or no to the question phrased this way. It

5 is a complete misrepresentation of everything that this witness has said

6 so far.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... answer the

8 question. I said just answer the question. I didn't say say yes or no.

9 [Microphone not activated].

10 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor said yes or no.

11 MR. WHITING: I don't think I did, and I also don't think that

12 there has been any misrepresentation of what the witness has testified

13 about.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: The objection is overruled.

15 Proceed, Mr. Whiting.

16 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. If you could just answer the question, please. There were

18 officers -- there were policemen available at that time to escort Croat

19 civilians out of the RSK but there were not policemen available to help

20 them stay in their homes. Isn't that true, sir?

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: And you can answer yes or no.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, that's not correct.

23 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I'm mindful that the Court wants a

24 little time. I can tell the witness I'm very close to finishing my

25 cross-examination. But I can't finish it today. I'll need to finish it

Page 7121

1 tomorrow. But I think this would be a convenient time, if the Court wants

2 some time to do housekeeping matters.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] Thank you very much.

4 Mr. Milovancevic. Mr. Milovancevic? There were filings to be

5 made by yesterday. I just want to find out what the status is of those

6 filings.

7 MR. WHITING: I'm sorry, just because the witness has been here a

8 long time, can we excuse him?

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes. Can the witness please be excused.

10 [The witness stands down]

11 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] That's correct, Your Honour.

12 You asked me whether the deadline passed yesterday. That's correct. And

13 we complied with the order of the Court. We supplied the list of

14 documents referred to by the Defence in our opening statement. We

15 supplied notification of witnesses whom we would not be calling. And

16 that's how we complied with the order.

17 I was waiting for this issue to be raised in order to provide some

18 additional information concerning Mr. Martic.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes. Mr. Milovancevic, there were a number of

20 things to be done. You have told me about two things. You were going

21 to -- yeah, one of them is Mr. Martic, his 65 ter summary. You have now

22 told us about -- let's take them one by one. What is the position about

23 Mr. Martic's testimony 65 ter summary? Is it filed or not filed? And

24 once again, you can answer me yes or no.

25 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

Page 7122

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Any reason?

2 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. We have a reason.

3 Following the course of the examination of witnesses who testify about a

4 relatively limited period of time, like the witness who was just left the

5 courtroom, the Defence team has realised that the questioning, the

6 examination of Mr. Martic, would be extremely lengthy and that is the

7 reason why we took the position, after consulting Mr. Martic, that he

8 should not appear as a witness in his own case. The issues that

9 Mr. Martic was to testify about --

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's the answer. The reason you don't -- you

11 didn't have the 65 ter is that he's not going to testify. Just say that,

12 Mr. Milovancevic. We've got a very short time. Now you're placing it on

13 record officially that Mr. Martic is not going to testify, so we are now

14 back to 53 witnesses and not 54. Okay.

15 Now, what is the position about -- you said the seven who have no

16 65 ter summaries. You may have mentioned them a little earlier, but can

17 you just recap me very briefly?

18 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't have the

19 submission that we have sent in front of me, but out of --

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just tell me --

21 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] -- that list, the Defence will

22 not be calling four witnesses.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. I have seen -- I have seen that filing

24 where you say four witnesses are not being called. I just want to find

25 out about the three. Okay.

Page 7123

1 Your 92 bis lists?

2 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Out of the witnesses mentioned,

3 seven or six, we would not be calling four. Two witnesses from abroad

4 should go in through 92 bis.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry, Mr. Milovancevic, we have dealt with

6 the 7. I'm talking about your 92 bis list of your entire witnesses. We

7 are done with the seven witnesses. What is the story -- have you filed

8 your 92 bis lists for your entire witness list?

9 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence

10 believes that there are no witnesses who do not testify about the

11 activities of the accused. If they do testify to the activities of the

12 accused, they cannot go in through 92 bis. They have to go in live. Some

13 of them will take more time, some will take less time.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic, it is my view that the witness

15 before this witness, Mr. Licina, said virtually nothing about Mr. Martic,

16 virtually. Certainly not during evidence-in-chief. Maybe Mr. Martic was

17 mentioned once in cross-examination. That's an example of a witness who

18 could have come in through 92 bis.

19 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence begs

20 to differ. We are required to prove that something that the Prosecutor

21 doesn't wish to prove does not exist. In keeping with the practice of the

22 Tribunal, it is not up to the Defence to prove that there was no joint

23 criminal enterprise, and that's precisely what Mr. Martic is charged with.

24 All the things that Mr. Licina testified about relate to the existence or

25 non-existence of the joint criminal enterprise. That is the core of the

Page 7124

1 issue in the view of the Defence, not the rest. The rest will be

2 established very easily. The question is what about the plan of the joint

3 criminal enterprise? The witness can tell us about which victim was

4 killed in which village in order to come to the conclusion that there was

5 a joint criminal enterprise.

6 We are trying to prove a completely different theory through our

7 witnesses, and we believe that witnesses should appear live, especially on

8 the issue of the joint criminal enterprise. The Prosecutor did not offer

9 a single piece of evidence about the joint criminal enterprise in the five

10 and a half months of his case. And that is precisely the reason why

11 Mr. Martic is in detention now.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Obviously, if the Prosecutor has not offered a

13 single piece of evidence, what are you disproving? All you have to say --

14 okay. Anyway, that's how you conduct your trial.

15 Is it your position, therefore, that you're not filing any 92 bis

16 lists?

17 Mr. Martic -- I beg your pardon. I'm sorry, Mr. Martic. I want

18 to say Mr. Milovancevic.

19 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] At this moment, we believe that

20 two witnesses can testify to that issue in that way, and those are

21 witnesses from France.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Translations of exhibits in the list.

23 You were supposed to say which ones are dropped and which ones are not

24 dropped.

25 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think all that

Page 7125

1 has been done. According to the information available to me now, things

2 stand precisely as I presented them to you.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: And the expert reports that were supposed to have

4 been provided on the 14th of August, what about them?

5 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] That's the issue we discussed

6 at the session when you gave us the deadline of the 23rd. And we informed

7 you then, and I understood the Trial Chamber accepted it, and the

8 Prosecution agreed, that the military expert's report, which is being

9 translated and should be ready in early September, will then be submitted

10 immediately to the Prosecutor.

11 As for the other expert, the political expert, we still have not

12 received a decision from the Registry to appoint that person. Everything

13 has been prepared pending that decision by the Registry. It's a technical

14 issue. It is not overly concerning me only because the report is ready.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, it overly concerns the Prosecution and the

16 Chamber. Bear that in mind.

17 If I can go back to the 92 bis list, when can the two that are

18 going to testify in terms of 92 bis be expected to be filed? Or have they

19 been filed? The people from France.

20 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, at this moment, it

21 is our agreement in -- within the Defence team to have that done by

22 yesterday. And I think that it was done. I'm sorry, I don't have this

23 material in front of me now. I don't want to be mistaken, but the

24 information I have is that it has been done.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's the answer. That's the whole paragraph is

Page 7126

1 no answer. I don't want to know what is the agreement within the Defence

2 force. I just want to know whether it's done or not done. That's all.

3 I know we are delaying Judge Nosworthy and we have got to move

4 very fast.

5 Protective measures is the last issue. I think there had been an

6 indication that you are going to make, I don't know, a composite motion.

7 Are you going to be dealing with them one by one as you go along? I'm not

8 sure what the issue is about the protective measures. Can somebody remind

9 me? I've got it on the list.

10 MR. WHITING: My memory is that issue has been addressed. I don't

11 have a memory of that being an outstanding issue.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: One last thing. I raise it, I'm not discussing it

13 because of time constraints, I'll probably talk about it tomorrow before

14 we start, is the time that's been taken on witnesses as against the

15 estimated time. And that also as against the time stipulated in terms of

16 73 bis. We will talk about that tomorrow.

17 Court adjourned. Reconvene tomorrow at quarter past 2.00.

18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.52 p.m.,

19 to be reconvened on Friday, the 25th day of August,

20 2006, at 2.15 p.m.