Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 8484

1 Monday, 18 September 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon, everybody. I believe the

6 Prosecution wants to raise some issues before we move into hearing

7 evidence.

8 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, this time it's not me; it's Mr.

9 Milovancevic who has something to raise.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry, Mr. Whiting. Yes, Mr. Milovancevic.

11 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon, Mr. Milovancevic.

13 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] I should only like to briefly

14 inform the Trial Chamber, in connection with the obligations that we have

15 undertaken, namely as regards the reduction of time, we have done that,

16 and it has been submitted to the secretary of our schedule, and that is by

17 the end of the day it shall also be submitted to the Trial Chamber.

18 Secondly, I undertook, on Friday, to inform the Trial Chamber of

19 the stage of the translation of the expert's reports. As regards the

20 military expert, according to the official information received from the

21 translation service, the translation should have been finished today, but

22 it will be delayed for a couple of days.

23 As regards the translation of the expert report by Professor

24 Anramov, that one should be finished by the beginning of next week. That

25 is as far as these issues raised on Friday are concerned.

Page 8485

1 The Defence also has been enjoined by the Trial Chamber how to act

2 in connection with the testimony of Milan Babic. We are to submit a

3 submission in respect of those parts that we failed to cross-examine, and

4 that deadline expires on Thursday, as well as for the rebuttal evidence.

5 As we have quite a condensed schedule now with witnesses, we are asking

6 the Chamber if that is at all possible, to extend this deadline for us

7 until next Monday, instead of this Thursday. If that is at all possible.

8 That would be all from the Defence team. Thank you.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Milovancevic. And thank

10 you specifically for the filing that you say you are now going to be

11 making today.

12 I perhaps was remiss in emphasising to you the need, when

13 preparing that filing, to give serious thought to the use of 92 bis and

14 89(F), because I can assure you, without the use of those two Rules, it's

15 going to be virtually impossible to fit in within the 158 hours, but if

16 you make extensive use of them, particularly with witnesses who are

17 talking about similar evidence, or who are not talking about anything that

18 the accused -- personally may have done, it will be very helpful. Then

19 you will be able to fit in very smoothly within that time period.

20 As to the translations relating to the two reports, I think I will

21 have to defer to the Prosecution here, because they are the people who are

22 eagerly awaiting those reports and they need to prepare.

23 How does this affect you, Mr. Whiting?

24 MR. WHITING: That's fine. What has been stated by Defence

25 counsel is fine. We will receive the reports and there will be adequate

Page 8486

1 time for us to consider them and respond.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Whiting.

3 The Babic evidence, I must confess, I have not given much thought

4 to what you have raised, Mr. Milovancevic, since the decision of that

5 Appeals Chamber was handed down. I'm not quite sure one has to look at

6 the decision that we had made as to look at whether or not your time has

7 not run and expired from the time the order was made or whether it can

8 still run now, after the Appeals Chamber decision. And you are saying, if

9 it is running from now, from the date of that Appeals Chamber's decision,

10 it expires on Thursday but you need an extension. I really need to confer

11 with my colleagues outside court and look at the document itself to be

12 able to say whether or not you still have time, that can still be

13 extended.

14 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, if I just could state our position on

15 this issue.

16 In the event the Trial Chamber finds that there is time still to

17 extend, that it can still be extended, and therefore considers the request

18 from the Defence for an extension from the deadline of Thursday, the 21st

19 of September until Monday the 25th of September, we have no opposition to

20 that request. And I can certainly understand the need for it given the

21 press of business.

22 However, we would ask that, it that is allowed, that we be given a

23 similar extension and that we be required, then, to file our response to

24 that by Friday, October 6th, which also accommodates my schedule, because

25 this task will fall to me, and as the Court is aware, I will have other

Page 8487

1 obligations during the week of the 25th of September. So that's the only

2 thing I wanted to state.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Whiting.

4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. We'll then try to come back to you as

6 soon as we possibly can, Mr. Milovancevic, with an answer on point 3.

7 If that is all, we can call the witness in.

8 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Milovancevic.

10 [The witness entered court]


12 [Witness answered through interpreter]

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may be seated, Mrs. Vujanic.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mrs. Vujanic, I remind you that at the beginning of

16 your testimony you made a declaration to tell the truth, the whole truth

17 and nothing else but the truth. You are still bound by that declaration.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am aware of that.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Mr. Milovancevic.

22 Examination by Mr. Milovancevic [continued]:

23 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

24 Q. Good afternoon, Mrs. Vujanic?

25 A. Good afternoon.

Page 8488

1 Q. We shall now continue our examination-in-chief, and I should like

2 to ask you once again, just as I asked you at the beginning, for us to

3 make a pause between question and answer and to speak as slowly as

4 possible, and that refers to both you and myself. Thank you.

5 When you were answering one of my earlier questions, Mrs. Vujanic,

6 you said that the right to participate at the referendum that you

7 organised as the chairman of the central electoral commission was vested

8 in all citizens of age with a place of residential in the municipality

9 where the vote was being held. Do you remember that?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Was such a provision on the right of the participation of all

12 citizens of age, was it envisaged under the law?

13 A. Yes, it was.

14 Q. Thank you. Was the law regulating this right of participation

15 make any distinctions between citizens, in terms of gender, religion,

16 profession and nationality, or anything else?

17 A. No, it did not.

18 Q. Thank you. Does that mean that all citizens of the Krajina who

19 had their places of residence in the municipality where the referendum was

20 being held irrespective of their nationality, ethnicity, had the right to

21 vote at that referendum?

22 A. Yes, they did.

23 Q. Thank you. Do you know whether there were any violations of these

24 provisions stipulated under the law, and also specified in the --

25 established in specific instances?

Page 8489

1 A. No, I don't know of any such instances.

2 Q. Now we shall revert to another topic. You mentioned that as a

3 member of a delegation from the SAO Krajina and there were some 30 of you

4 visiting the Presidency of Yugoslavia and Mr. Jovic, do you recall that?

5 A. Yes, I do.

6 Q. You also said that representatives of the Krajina, especially from

7 Slavonia and Kordun, had used some data that you personally found

8 astonishing. Do you remember that?

9 A. Yes, I do.

10 Q. Did the delegation of the SAO Krajina acquaint anybody else, apart

11 from Mr. Jovic, with that data when you were in Belgrade?

12 A. Yes. After the meeting with Mr. Jovic finished, the chief of the

13 cabinet of Mr. Jovic approached us, and he told us that President

14 Milosevic had expressed a desire for us to come and see him in the Serbian

15 Presidency.

16 So after this meeting, we went to the Presidency of Serbia, and

17 were received there by Mr. Milosevic.

18 Q. Can you tell us who this -- what kind of talk did you have with

19 Mr. Milosevic on that particular occasion?

20 A. This was a talk that was completely identical -- identical to the

21 one that we had had with Mr. Jovic, in the SFRY Presidency, simply the

22 people actually unloaded their chests and mostly spoke about what was

23 their major concerns, and these were people from Slavonia, Baranija, spoke

24 about what had transpired, that people had been made redundant, laid off,

25 like the instance which I mentioned the last time this example of a doctor

Page 8490

1 from Pakrac.

2 So we had similar examples also being presented at this meeting as

3 well.

4 Q. Thank you. That will do. Were there -- was there -- was there

5 any reaction to that on that occasion by Mr. Milosevic?

6 A. Well, to tell you the truth, I experienced both meetings just as a

7 place where we could vent our grievances, and they let us just talk and

8 say what we had. That was it.

9 Q. Thank you. You also said that you were the chairman, the

10 president of the central electoral commission and you also referred to the

11 first multi-party elections which ended in May 1990.

12 Who won? What parties won in Knin then?

13 A. It was the Serbian Democratic Party, headed by Dr. Milan Babic

14 that won the elections in Knin then.

15 Q. The municipal public attorney and then -- as the municipal public

16 attorney and later the chairman of the electoral commission, did you have

17 any dealings, any ties, any relations I mean, political ones, with Mr.

18 Babic?

19 A. Well basically I did not engage in politics. I just did my

20 professional work as chairman of this commission, and I was chairman of

21 that commission because I was graduated jurist. But as the public

22 attorney, I -- I did have such dealings. I was the public ombudsman in a

23 way, of course, and as public attorney, I had to act in accordance with

24 the law, meaning that I dealt to help people in the matter of property

25 relations and property issues, and I didn't need any power of attorney

Page 8491

1 from either the municipal head, or the executive council. And no contract

2 or agreement dealing with property relation could be considered valid if

3 it did not have the seal of the attorney, of the public attorney.

4 So that was my role, but as regards politics, I was just a member

5 of this delegation when I was invited, and we had several contacts along

6 those lines, but that was it.

7 Let me just mention. I am not -- I was not a member of any party.

8 I was a member of the Legal Communists while it existed, but later I was

9 not a member of any party either in Knin or anywhere else.

10 Q. Did you have an opportunity to hear from Mr. Babic, what his --

11 what the leadership of Serbia thought about the referendum, the referendum

12 question and about the establishment of the government?

13 A. At the time when these elections were being prepared, namely after

14 the Assembly had taken this decision and nominated me, appointed me as

15 president of the Electoral Commission, I had contacts with the late Mr.

16 Babic. In fact, I was in his apartment with some associates of mine a

17 couple of times and I remember quite well this text which was to be placed

18 on the ballot. It was formulated by him personally. He said, actually --

19 worded his text, were we in favour of SAO Krajina's annexation to Serbia?

20 He said that Mr. Milosevic was extremely angry with that text, and that he

21 asked him, Babic that is, that it should not go, that the text should be

22 whether we were for remaining with Serbia and Montenegro or with

23 Yugoslavia. Not for this annexation. Then he told him that he could not

24 order him what to do, and according to him, then there was this large

25 falling out between the two of them.

Page 8492

1 However, that original text was used. It was written by Mr. Babic

2 with his own hand, and we had it printed in the printing enterprise

3 Mladost for use at the referendum.

4 Q. Thank you. You said in your reply that from 1975 to 1983 you had

5 worked as a criminal law judge, as a law in the criminal department, and

6 as such did you see any criminal complaints that had been processed by Mr.

7 Martic as a policeman?

8 A. Yes, I did see such complaints.

9 Q. Can you tell us what your professional opinion was regarding the

10 quality of the complaints or the lack of their quality. Of course I don't

11 mean to suggest any opinion to you, of course. What were they like?

12 A. I can tell you this. You know probably how the procedure goes.

13 First the criminal complaint is lodged, which is done by the SUP and its

14 workers. And as far as I remember, at the time Mr. Martic was an

15 inspector. So I had occasion to look at his complaints, as well as any

16 others. And when, a later law was passed, the police complaints could be

17 singled-out. But initially they were a part of the file, a component part

18 of the file. They had been processed very well, and what is of the

19 essence -- and this is something I do wish to stress because I have come

20 here to say -- to tell the truth and only the truth, and especially as a

21 person of the same profession -- it never happened, and there have been

22 cases like that, namely, Mr. Martic was very consistent and very

23 professional in doing his job and I can say that according to what I saw

24 of his work.

25 Q. Can we say on the basis of what you said, that he acted in

Page 8493

1 accordance with the law?

2 A. Absolutely.

3 Q. So you had seen criminal complaints that Mr. Martic submitted to

4 the Prosecutor's office and to the Court from 1975 to 1983. But can you

5 tell me, did you ever come to meet Mr. Martic and when was that, if that

6 is the case?

7 A. The municipal court in Knin where I worked also conducted

8 investigations from the competence of the municipal court until 1977 when

9 investigation centres were set up. But until the first of July, 1977 when

10 such investigations were formed. But he worked exclusively at orders of

11 the judge of the Municipal Court, of the District Court.

12 So as I liked to rather go in a police car rather than drive a car

13 myself, and it goes without saying that the police was always there to

14 inspect the scene, so that in these goings to inspection sites with the

15 police, we all, of course, knew each other because Knin is a small place

16 and generally speaking I had a very good cooperation with the Knin SUP as

17 a criminal judge, as well as when it came to action in regard of the

18 families of the injured, of injured parties. I had eight deaths among my

19 cases, because of alcoholic -- driving while intoxicated and I had

20 different cases. I had very good cooperation with the SUP in Knin. I

21 would always cooperate in a very timely manner. Also when it came to

22 securing people that needed security.

23 Q. Am I to take it that you actually came to know the accused quite

24 well?

25 A. Yes, that's it.

Page 8494

1 Q. You talked about the referendum which was held in 1991. In 1991

2 there was a whole series of other events that happened. Can you tell us,

3 do you have any experiences or any information regarding the conduct of

4 Mr. Martic in that particular behaviour, specifically in terms of his

5 relationship towards the citizens? Did he make any distinctions between

6 the citizens, that is the essence of my question.

7 A. As I was born in 1937 and was a refugee myself, after the Second

8 World War and when the first refugees reached Kijtanje from the Zadar

9 hinterland and when I heard that on Radio Knin, I took it very hard. And

10 I went there on my own as a citizen, on my own initiative and I saw a

11 multitude of refugees in an abandoned school, which was without any

12 electricity, there was no water. It was completely empty. It hadn't

13 worked for some five or six years. So I took this very hard and I

14 couldn't sleep all night thinking how I could help those people.

15 Q. Excuse me, can I interrupt you. Are you talking about the

16 abandoned school building in Kistanje and about the refugees? Did I

17 understand you correctly?

18 A. Yes, yes.

19 Q. So you said you went to that school after hearing that there was

20 some refugees there and you indeed found them there?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Now, you were telling us what you planned to do in that situation.

23 Can you tell us, first, where the refugees were from.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry. Can I just get contextualised in terms

25 of time here. These are refugees at Kistanje and from the Zadar

Page 8495

1 hinterland, you have talked about -- you are talking about them in

2 relation to the Second World War. Is that when you saw them?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's when you were hit hard and you didn't know

5 how you could help them?

6 THE WITNESS: No, no, no.

7 [Interpretation] No. Those were refugees that was in the period

8 in the summer of 1998. I remember that because I remember how people were

9 dressed.

10 I think they were from Ravni Kotori, the area behind Zadar, from

11 Zadra hinterland. And those people were refugeed and temporarily housed

12 in that school building in Kistanje, which fell into disuse after the new

13 school was built. But it was by all means in the summer.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: I hear you. How are they connected with the Second

15 World War?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. I was saying that I, as

17 a child, was a refugee in World War II, and that's what moved me to go

18 there when I heard over Radio Knin that refugees had come in. That

19 brought back memories from my childhood and that moved me to go there and

20 see with my own eyes what was going on with those people.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. That clears the point. You

22 hadn't said so initially.

23 So can I ask, when you are asked a question, try to confine

24 yourself to the question that is asked. I'm sure as a judge you

25 understand the need for precision, because now you confused us. Of course

Page 8496

1 you didn't say "I was myself a refugee after the world war, Second World

2 War." So it seemed to me like you were saying these were people from, who

3 were refugees from the Second World War. So please try to confine

4 yourself to exactly what is being asked and answer just that question.

5 You are on your feet, Mr. Whiting.

6 MR. WHITING: I just wonder if we could just ask one more time

7 about the date of this event, because the date -- it sort of stands out.


9 MR. WHITING: I just wonder if it is correctly translated or if

10 there was a misinterpretation.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Now you're saying these people who were in

12 this school in Kistanje, what year was this? And what month and date was

13 it when you saw them?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was year 1991. I can't

15 remember the date, of course, but it was in summer.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. That's it. Yes, Mr.

17 Milovancevic.

18 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Q. Mrs. Vujanic, can you tell us very briefly who were those people?

20 How were they dressed and did they need help? How many of them were

21 there?

22 A. We were told that there were people from Ravni Kotori, that's the

23 hinterland of Zadar, mainly from villages. As they told us themselves

24 they had been on their farms that very morning. And later that day they

25 found themselves in this abandoned school building, children, elderly

Page 8497

1 people. They just had little knapsacks.

2 Q. You say they ran away from their farms that morning. They ran

3 away from whom, from what?

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic, it may be a question of

5 interpretation. I didn't hear the witness say they ran away from their

6 farms. She says as they told us themselves, they had been on their farms

7 that very morning, and later that day they found themselves in this

8 abandoned school. I was still waiting to hear how they found themselves

9 getting there. How did they get away from the farm to the school. Sorry,

10 yes, Mr. Whiting.

11 MR. WHITING: I'm sorry. I'm sorry to interrupt, Your Honour.

12 I feel a little compelled to object, because there is nothing

13 about this on the 65 ter summary. It's the first time we are learning

14 about -- that there was going to be testimony about this event and it is

15 obviously this -- obviously not a surprise to Mr. Milovancevic, because he

16 has elicited it and seems to know what she is talking about, and I would

17 object to evidence on this point since it's not been put on -- we received

18 no notice of it.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic.

20 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my learned friend

21 from the Prosecution is right as far as the objection is concerned, he's

22 right in saying we had not announced it. But the fact is, I'm surprised

23 myself by the witness's answer, and since she already mentioned it I'm

24 trying to avoid further confusion by clarifying it. With your leave, I

25 would like to finish with this one question and will not delve into this

Page 8498

1 topic any further.

2 But in the proofing, we did not deal with this topic at all.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: You didn't deal with it Mr. Milovancevic and you

4 are surprised by it. You are not going to ask questions about it simply

5 because I asked questions about it. I asked questions about it because I

6 didn't understand what was happening. I am trying to relate this whole

7 story to the rest of the witness's evidence, and I just didn't see where

8 it comes from and how it comes in.

9 Now, if indeed it is objectionable on the basis that it had not

10 been notified in your 65 ter notice, it looks to me like there is no need

11 for you to ask any further questions about it.

12 Maybe we should abandon it and get to the next point, Mr.

13 Milovancevic. Thank you very much.

14 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Q. Mrs. Vujanic, in the course of 1991, do you know, what was the

16 attitude of Mr. Martic towards Croat citizens? Do you know anything about

17 that?

18 A. I'm sorry because of this misunderstanding. It was sort of

19 introduction into what I am about to say. This point that I was trying to

20 make that I was involved in humanitarian work and it was precisely then --

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Witness, can I interrupt you. We have ruled that

22 piece of evidence out of order. Forget about it. Answer the question:

23 Do you know anything about Mr. Martic's attitude towards Croats?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do. I had a jury person, Mrs.

25 Katica Cacic, for a long time. She was otherwise teacher of geography and

Page 8499

1 I knew her from before, because she was a tenant in the same building

2 where I lived. One day she came to my door in tears and I knew her well,

3 as well as her husband. And her husband at that time had a surgery in

4 Split. So seeing her in tears, I asked what was going on, and she told me

5 that some people barged into her apartment. What people? Some refugees.

6 And I told her, why don't you stay at my place? We'll deal with

7 it somehow.

8 She told me that she was going to her relatives instead, but I

9 really went to see the then Minister of Justice, Mr. Markovic, the next

10 morning, and I also called Mr. Martic, who was secretary of the SUP at the

11 time, or chief or whatever, and told him what had happened. We agreed of

12 course that these things were completely out of order.

13 On the same day, the people who who haved into the apartment of

14 Branko Cacic were made to move out, were evacuated, on the orders of Mr.

15 Martic.

16 Q. Excuse me, Mrs. Vujanic, for interrupting you. Can you please

17 specify the time period for this incident involving your jury person.

18 A. You mean what I said just now?

19 Q. Yes. Katica Cacic?

20 A. It was in 1991, just at the time when those refugees arrived from

21 the Zadar region. It was the summer of 1991.

22 Q. Now, please. You wanted to tell us about another incident when I

23 interrupted you.

24 A. Yes. When refugees arrived from Drnis -- and that's what I meant

25 with my introduction about being involved in humanitarian work together

Page 8500

1 with my friends -- there were lots of Serbs and Croats among the refugees.

2 And I remember well that evening, maybe about 9 o'clock, even ten o'clock,

3 it happened in the trade union hall where we did this humanitarian work,

4 Mr. Martic came and told me, personally, because I was the leader of that

5 group of friends, and he told me: There are some Croats among the

6 refugees who just came. Please, don't let anything happen. Receive them

7 as well as you receive the others. That's what Mr. Martic told me,

8 personally.

9 And indeed there were Croats in that group. I remember a couple

10 of people whom I recognised, parents of a famous basketball player, and I

11 remember that woman was very tall and we couldn't find any clothes of the

12 proper size for her, so I brought some from my own home. And I will

13 remember that forever; that is something that I know for sure.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I interrupt you. I'm sorry. I'm concerned

15 about time, Mrs. Vujanic.

16 Can I just ask you one point. What was the ethnicity of your jury

17 person?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Croat.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Fine. You can move on, Mr. Milovancevic.

20 Please control the witness.

21 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Mrs. Vujanic, a moment ago you mentioned refugees, both Serbs and

23 Croats who were flowing in from the area of Drnis, correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What was going on in Drnis to make those refugees flee, and when

Page 8501

1 did it happen?

2 A. Well, I know that I did that humanitarian work in the summer and

3 autumn 1991. The army conducted some sort of operations there. That's

4 not something I know a lot about.

5 Q. When you say the army was conducting operations, which army do you

6 mean?

7 A. The Yugoslav People's Army.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Were these people running away from the operations

9 of the Yugoslav People's Army?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All I know is that they arrived in

11 Knin and we received them as refugees. To tell you the truth, what they

12 ran away from, I don't know.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. That last point is the answer to my

14 question.

15 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 Q. Mrs. Vujanic, did you follow the trial of Mr. Babic?

17 A. A part of it. As far as I could manage.

18 Q. Do you know about his plea bargain?

19 A. Yes.

20 MR. WHITING: I'm going to object again. This is also not on the

21 65 ter summary.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic.

23 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] I withdraw this question, Your

24 Honour. I have no further questions in-chief.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Milovancevic. Mr.

Page 8502

1 Whiting.

2 Cross-examination by Mr. Whiting:

3 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Good afternoon.

5 A. Good afternoon.

6 Q. Mrs. Vujanic. My name is Alex Whiting, I'm one of the Prosecutors

7 in this case. And I am going to ask you a few questions. You testified

8 on Friday about the death of Vaso Pecar, do you remember that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And you testified that you thought it occurred at the end of 1990.

11 In fact, it occurred in the spring of 1991, right?

12 A. Well, believe me, I really can't remember the dates. I can

13 remember some dates that are associated in my mind with very particular,

14 very special cases, but that's something that doesn't happen often.

15 Q. So just bringing it back to this event, the death of Vaso Pecar,

16 are you saying that you don't remember the date of when that occurred?

17 A. No.

18 Q. It's not known who killed Vaso Pecar, is it?

19 A. I don't know that. I know only what was being said and what I

20 heard then, that Ustashas had killed him. I can tell you the version that

21 circulated in Knin and that you could hear at his funeral --

22 Q. Well madam ---

23 A. -- that his --

24 Q. Madam --

25 A. -- grandfather had died the same way.

Page 8503

1 Q. Madam, you never heard a particular or specific person identified

2 as the killer of Vaso Pecar, did you, in those stories that circulated

3 around Knin?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Can you explain for me, then, how it is that there would be

6 stories saying that Ustashas killed him, stories which you repeated in

7 your direct evidence and just repeated a few moments ago? That is, if the

8 killer was not known, how is it known that -- how can it be said that

9 Ustashas killed him?

10 A. It was probably the way he was killed and the place where he was

11 found that indicated that. I can only tell you what I heard.

12 Q. But, Mrs. Vujanic, you know that Ustashas are -- that's a

13 reference to people in a government from the Second World War, right?

14 A. Yes, yes.

15 Q. And when you refer to somebody as an Ustasha, that is a very kind

16 of extremist thing -- I mean that is a very extreme statement to say about

17 somebody, isn't it?

18 A. Regrettably in that period, when it all started in our region, the

19 words "Ustashas" and "Chetniks" were very frequently used on both sides.

20 Q. Not just in that period, also last Friday in your evidence, right?

21 You told this Trial Chamber on Friday that Ustashas had killed him. It's

22 at page 64 of your evidence on Friday.

23 A. Yes, that is what I heard. That's all I can tell you, what people

24 were saying at his funeral ceremony attended by several thousand people.

25 Q. You would agree with me that it's impossible, from the way he was

Page 8504

1 killed and the place he was found, to conclude that Ustashas had killed

2 him, right?

3 A. Sir, I can only tell you again, I did not conduct that

4 investigation to be able to tell you what was established and how. I'm

5 just telling you what was being said by everybody that --

6 Q. But madam, madam --

7 A. By his neighbours that Ustashas had killed him.

8 Q. Madam, this is the year 2006. You're testifying in front of the

9 Tribunal in The Hague. Did you believe, on Friday, that this kind of

10 information was reliable enough for you to share with the Judges and to

11 testify to? Was that your belief?

12 A. I didn't understand, was what my belief?

13 Q. Well, you're telling us, well this is just what I heard, and so

14 forth. But my point is that you, you felt this, I take it you felt this

15 important enough and reliable enough to share it in your testimony on

16 Friday with the Trial Chamber. Is that the case? Did you find it

17 reliable and important to share that information?

18 A. I reiterate that I'm only saying to you what was being said in

19 Knin at the time when he was killed and people were very upset about that.

20 Q. Would you agree with me, madam --

21 A. Unfortunately, the perpetrator was never found.

22 Q. Would you agree with me, madam, that that term "Ustasha" was a

23 frightening term for Serbs in 1991, and even today?

24 A. Well, I'll share with you my personal opinion and also what you

25 could hear people tell.

Page 8505

1 Q. If you could just answer the question. If you could please just

2 answer the question. Would you agree with me that the term "Ustasha" was

3 a frightening term, caused fear among Serbs in 1991? That's true, isn't

4 it?

5 A. Well, the word "Ustasha" is terribly upsetting to Serbs. And we

6 all know how Mr. Glavas presented his fighters, it was on TV together with

7 all the songs and iconography, that's the way they introduced themselves.

8 It is nothing new.

9 Q. Okay. Now, let's take this one step at a time. You've told us

10 now that the term Ustasha is terribly upsetting to the Serbs. Would you

11 agree with me also that you have used that term rather loosely in your

12 testimony. That is you you refer to somebody as an Ustasha who is not

13 even -- has never even been identified. So would you agree with me that

14 you use that term rather loosely?

15 A. We obviously didn't understand each other. I only said what

16 happened after the death of Vaso Pecar, what happened in Knin, what people

17 were saying, that's all I said. I am not the one who pointed the finger

18 at anybody or called them Ustashas. That's probably the difference

19 between your question and my answer. I'm just telling you what people

20 were saying at the time he was killed by Ustashas.

21 Q. Did you believe that?

22 A. -- and that continued.

23 Q. Did you believe that to be true? Did you think he had been killed

24 by Ustashas?

25 A. Well, to be honest, yes. Certainly.

Page 8506

1 Q. Based on what?

2 A. He was killed in his own village, which faces Kijevo and I don't

3 know who else could have killed him, especially if you take into account

4 the fact that his grandfather, too, met his death in the same way in World

5 War II. Yes.

6 Q. Madam, is it fair to say that you thought that all members of the

7 HDZ or all members of the Croatian police were Ustashas?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Well, how is it that you conclude that the person who killed Vaso

10 Pecar is an Ustasha?

11 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Excuse me, the witness used a plural. She spoke

12 of the Ustashas killed him.

13 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour. I'm sorry. The people who

14 killed him. Well let me ask you this. Do you know if he was killed by

15 more than one person? Or was he killed by one person? Or do you not

16 know?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I don't know.


19 Q. Let me go back to something that you said earlier, which is that,

20 you made a reference to Mr. Glavas. We've heard his name before in this

21 trial, and he, Mr. Glavas, you would agree with me is an extremist, was

22 considered then and now an extremist in Croatia, right, and within the

23 HDZ? Isn't that right?

24 A. Now possibly yes, but for a long time he was the -- he was the

25 flag bearer of the HDZ.

Page 8507

1 Q. What do you mean --

2 A. That's my own personal opinion.

3 Q. And you base that, on what, that conclusion that he was the flag

4 bearer?

5 A. I base that conclusion on the fact that proceedings that are now

6 being instituted against him, although I live in Belgrade I have cable

7 television and I watch Croatian TV every day and I follow the

8 developments. And it is obvious that there is some kind of will now to

9 finally bring him to justice, whether it will succeed or not is another

10 matter, but it's obvious that he is no longer in HDZ what he used to be.

11 It's a matter of some internal conflicts into which I don't want to go.

12 But it's obvious that he is not -- he doesn't have the same role in the

13 HDZ now that he used to have.

14 Q. But that doesn't answer the question of how it is that you

15 concluded that he was the flag bearer back in 1991.

16 A. Based on his public appearances that I saw with my own eyes on

17 television, I heard him say to his fighters, he salutes them with God

18 bless you Ustashas, salute Ustashas, what are you afraid of. Those were

19 films that I saw on TV, I mean documentary footage.

20 Q. Right. And we have that clip in evidence here. The truth is,

21 Mrs. Vujanic, isn't it, that Mr. Glavas did not represent the majority of

22 people in the HDZ or in Croatia, did he? He was an extremist on the

23 fringe, wasn't he?

24 A. I told you what I know. I was never particularly interested or

25 involved in politics. I told you what I know from what I follow of

Page 8508

1 politics. Unfortunately, that's the way things are.

2 I did not count these men. All I can tell you is that with the

3 rise of the HDZ, things started going downhill in our region.

4 Q. Madam, on the topic of Ustashas, you testified that you got to

5 know Milan Martic quite well. Do you remember that testimony?

6 A. Yes, I do.

7 Q. Did he use the term "Ustashas"?

8 A. No. My contacts with Mr. Martic were indeed official ones, when I

9 worked as a judge, then in my other capacity, which I described here, so

10 he never used that term, neither did I.

11 I just related to you what the people were saying after the death

12 of Vaso Pecar, and please see it that way.

13 Q. Why didn't you use the term Ustashas? What was the reason for not

14 using it?

15 A. I did not use either the term Ustashas or the term Chetniks.

16 Maybe in some talks they could have been used, but I never felt the need

17 to use them.

18 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Sorry, the witness hasn't actually answered the

19 question and told you why or why not.


21 Q. Madam, if you would answer the question, please. Why didn't you

22 use that term? What was wrong with it?

23 A. I come from -- I hail from different parts. I came to Knin, and I

24 came from a different area. This term, the Ustashas, is something that I

25 came to understand as it were and here. In Knin, that was not something

Page 8509

1 which was familiar, as familiar to me as it was to the people who lived in

2 these areas.

3 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: So why did you take the decision not to use the

4 term?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was not a matter of any decision.

6 I didn't give it any thought, in fact. I don't quite understand the

7 question.

8 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: I thought you had said earlier that it was not a

9 word which you used. And what the Trial Chamber wants to know is, why you

10 avoided the use of the word. Let me help you. Would you consider it a

11 pejorative or derogatory term?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To tell you frankly, as I said a

13 while ago, I grew up in a different area where this was not as used as it

14 was in these parts. I may have used it in some talks, but I never used it

15 in a political sense, making any statements or such. But I do have to say

16 that in that particular time, that was used in those areas as an

17 association to the Second World War, and this was a much discussed topic,

18 the resurgence of that, what the Ustashas had done in the Second World

19 War.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Ma'am, what is remarkable about your testimony is

21 that you are so clear in your mind that you never used the term, and in

22 fact you have been so observant of this term that you are testifying today

23 that you know for a fact that Mr. Martic has never used that term, but you

24 are not able to tell us why. Obviously this term has occupied your mind

25 intensively, that you have been able to make a mental note of who uses it

Page 8510

1 and who doesn't, and that you yourself don't use it.

2 You've got to be able to tell us why you don't -- you didn't use

3 the term.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Do you mean officially or privately?

5 And I do apologise, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: You haven't told us whether you have not used it

7 officially or privately. You have just said you have not used it. Why

8 didn't you use it?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I simply did not use it because it

10 was just not part of my usage. I was not from those parts, and up to the

11 1990s I had not practically heard it said. Of course, unless I was

12 reading some -- reading matter referring to the Second World War, but

13 where I came from it was not mentioned in those times. It started to be

14 mentioned often in the 1990s when these hapless events started to

15 transpire there, and that's just -- so I was just minding my professional

16 business.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: That is my observation, precisely that. Why have

18 you not used it since you came across it in the 1990s? And you have found

19 it so easy to use it in Court in your testimony.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Presiding Judge and Your

21 Honours, please understand this. When I was talking about the case of

22 Vaso Pecar, I only repeated what the people in Knin were saying. I never

23 said that that was what I knew, that he had been killed by the Ustasha. I

24 just related what the people had been saying at that time.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let's go back to your answer. Why did you take the

Page 8511

1 decision not to use that term, since you came to know of it? And how do

2 you come to -- let's put that aside. Why did you decide not to use the

3 term?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Frankly speaking, I cannot guarantee

5 you that I never used it. I may have used it at times, so that I cannot

6 recall. But simply there was no particular need for me to either use the

7 term the Chetniks or the Ustashas. I was in a quite different field,

8 doing my job.

9 [Trial Chamber confers]

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Have you ever used the word Chetnik? Have you ever

11 used the word Chetnik?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Probably. Especially since in

13 the area where I was born there had been Chetniks. The Italians were

14 there and the Chetniks were there so that I may have used it.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Since 1990 when you were in Knin, have you ever

16 used the word Chetnik?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I frankly cannot remember, just as

18 in the case of the Ustashas. It is quite possible I may have used it,

19 perhaps then again I didn't use these terms, but I don't consider it to be

20 that important.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: What is the Chamber to accept as your testimony?

22 You say you never used the words, but you may probably have used them, but

23 it was not in you so you never used them. What is the fact here and what

24 is fiction?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I allow the possibility that I may

Page 8512

1 have used the term Ustashas and Chetniks as well, but I cannot assert with

2 certainty that either was the case, because I really never paid any

3 particular attention to that, but I do allow the possibility that I have

4 used both terms on occasion in some talks. I couldn't swear that I

5 haven't used them.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Thank you very much. You may

7 proceed, Mr. Whiting.

8 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. Let's focus again on Mr. Martic, and if we could see Exhibit 213,

10 please, in evidence. Madam, I'm going to show you a newspaper article

11 that's in evidence. It is from the 7th of July, 1991, and it's published

12 in the newspaper Tanjug, which you know is a newspaper that was published

13 in Belgrade; right?

14 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Isn't this a press agency, Tanjug?

15 MR. WHITING: Yes. Yes, I'm sorry. And it's based in Belgrade,

16 right?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.


19 Q. Yes, I'm actually not sure if this is a press release, what

20 exactly the status of this is. Thank you, Your Honour.

21 If we could go to the second page of the B/C/S and to the bottom

22 of the English page, please. You just have to blow up the last two

23 paragraphs. It says: "Martic pointed at the current Croatian authorities

24 as their common enemy, describing them as an Ustasha state, which does not

25 wish well either to us or the Yugoslav Army."

Page 8513

1 Do you remember Mr. Martic referring to the Croatian government or

2 Croatia as an Ustasha state, in July of 1991?

3 A. I do not recall such things. I do not claim that he hasn't said

4 that. I came here to testify about what I personally know, from the

5 fields that I covered. I do not recall this particular article.

6 Q. Madam, were you --

7 A. But what I said was, in talking to me, he never used such a term.

8 Q. Madam, were you -- you had gotten to know Milan Martic quite well.

9 Were you familiar with his public statements that he was making at the

10 time?

11 A. I only remember quite well in respect of Milan Martic when the

12 people were protesting against the weapons being seized from the arms,

13 when he was talking on their behalf. But more than 15 years have passed

14 and now who said what and for what particular newspaper, I couldn't

15 possibly remember.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, madam -- I'm sorry, ma'am, but you have just

17 been telling us now when you were led by Defence counsel, that you knew

18 Mr. Martic well, and he used to make complaints, he was working very

19 well. And actually, I have a question that I am going to ask you here

20 later, about that issue. You know, you can't now turnaround and tell us

21 that all you know is, what did you say, all you know about Mr. Martic is

22 when people were protesting against weapons. You didn't even mention

23 weapons when you were being led.

24 You mentioned him working with you and his people very smoothly,

25 and you were asked, you came to know Mr. Martic very well, and you

Page 8514

1 said "yes." Do you remember that question by Defence counsel? Yes?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, once again I ask, which is fact here, Do you

4 know Mr. Martic very well? Or all you know is what he said about, only

5 concerning the protest against weapons?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I said that I did know

7 Mr. Martic and I did know him when I was a judge and I adhere to that

8 statement. I knew Mr. Martic in this period, yes. I know him, not as I

9 know many people from Knin, because Knin is a small place and I know many

10 people from Knin, but I know him also along the lines of professional

11 cooperation.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Would you like to round off your point? Or you

13 want to round it off when you come back?

14 MR. WHITING: I think we can take the break. Thank you, Your

15 Honour.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Whiting. We will take the

17 break and come back at 4 o'clock.

18 --- Recess taken at 3.30 p.m.

19 --- On resuming at 4.00 p.m.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry to do this to you, Mr. Whiting, but can

21 we just deal with the question that was raised by -- oh, please be seated,

22 ma'am. Sorry. The question that was raised by Mr. Milovancevic that he

23 would like us to apply our minds to, and then we can move on.

24 Mr. Milovancevic, the Chamber has found itself inclined to grant

25 you the extension. Now, can we just get clarity. You want an extension

Page 8515

1 to what date? The 25th you said?

2 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, until this next --

3 first next Monday. The deadline was this Thursday, and we meant to ask

4 for an extension until the next Monday, which is seven days from this day.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you realise that next Monday you will not be

6 here? But your office will attend to that?

7 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I do realise, Your Honour.

8 Thank you very much.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

10 Mr. Whiting, on that basis, you want an extension up to the 6th of

11 October? Okay?

12 MR. WHITING: That's correct, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: So it's granted. Thank you very much. Mr.

14 Milovancevic up to the 25th. Mr. Whiting up to the 6th.

15 Thank you. You may proceed, Mr. Whiting.

16 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. Madam, so just before the break, I understood you to testify that

18 you knew Mr. Martic well when you were a judge, which was up until 1983.

19 Correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And it's fair to say, is it not, that during 1990, during 1990 and

22 1991, you either did not follow his public statements or you are unable to

23 remember them now, with the exception of one statement that you referred

24 to in your testimony about when weapons were seized. Is that fair?

25 A. Yes. I cannot remember almost, actually not almost, but 15 years

Page 8516

1 have passed. I probably have read some of those statements, but I cannot

2 recall them. I do recall what transpired in contact with me, and that is

3 what I have told this Court already. And as regards any other statements,

4 I cannot say anything about those.

5 Q. And you would agree with me, would you not, that in 1991 you

6 couldn't, in July of 1991, you couldn't describe all of the authorities of

7 Croatia or the Croatian state as an Ustasha state, could you? You

8 couldn't apply that term "Ustasha" to the entire Croatian state or all of

9 the Croatian authorities, could you?

10 A. Of course I cannot characterise as such the entire Croatian people

11 where I also have and had relatives, among who I had and have kin.

12 Q. Madam, I'm going to interrupt you because I wasn't asking about

13 the entire Croatian people. I was talking about the Croatian state, or

14 Croatian authorities.

15 You couldn't describe the Croatian state or the Croatian

16 authorities as an Ustasha state, could you?

17 A. Well, that is a very complex question, but it is a fact that we

18 regarded those authorities, including me personally, as such. Now, for me

19 to distinguish between what comprises the Croatian authorities and the

20 Croatian state, that would require some time for explanation and a number

21 of approaches to the issue, but it is a fact that regreably that is so.

22 Q. Well, madam, when I asked you earlier if you thought all members

23 of the Croatian MUP or all members of the HDZ were Ustashas, you

24 said "no."

25 A. Well, no, of course not. I have no such information to be able to

Page 8517

1 state that.

2 Q. So, it's fair to say that you couldn't -- you also cannot say that

3 all of the Croatian authorities are Ustashas; could you?

4 A. But of course I couldn't, I cannot. I can only state my opinion,

5 but of course I couldn't say something definite on that score. I would

6 have to have some judgement or some finding, but in this way it is

7 something which is quite undefined.

8 Q. Well, not only is it undefined, it is also untrue, isn't it? Not

9 all the Croatian authorities were Ustashas, were they? And you know that,

10 don't you?

11 A. Well, probably not all of them were. I can speak about those I

12 had dealings with within my department, the judiciary, I mean from that

13 aspect, but I was not in politics, so I can only relate what it was that

14 we all felt. But as for such a definition, I have no right to give such a

15 charaterisation.

16 Q. I will move on from this topic.

17 You testified about the new Croatian constitution of December

18 1990. You remember that testimony?

19 A. Yes, yes.

20 Q. Did you ever actually read the constitution, yourself?

21 A. Yes, I did.

22 Q. So then you are aware that the constitution guaranteed Serbs

23 equality with Croats and guaranteed them all ethnic rights, right?

24 A. Well, I cannot recall the details of that constitution. I have

25 read it, of course, but what was disasterous about that constitution was

Page 8518

1 the fact that the Serbian people, who had been --

2 Q. Madam, I'm going to interrupt you because I want to focus on my

3 question now. Do you recall -- you say you can't recall the details. Do

4 you recall this detail that the constitution guaranteed Serbs equality

5 with Croats and guaranteed them all ethnic rights?

6 A. No, I cannot recall that. I cannot remember the text of the

7 constitution. It would be elusory for me to try to recall the text of the

8 constitution after 15 years.

9 Q. About you you do remember, after 15 years, that the status of the

10 Serbs changed in the constitution. That you do remember, right?

11 A. Yes, because I personally feel the consequences, and even after 15

12 years I feel the consequences of that particular thing, because I cannot

13 return to my flat, to my house, and I remember that because of that,

14 because that affected, afflicted the most, me personally and my people

15 generally.

16 Q. You said that you -- as I recall it, you said that you left Knin

17 in 1992. Is that right?

18 A. Yes, on the 1st of May 1992.

19 Q. Where did you go?

20 A. To Belgrade.

21 Q. And that was your decision, correct?

22 A. Yes, it was.

23 Q. So the constitution, even though the constitution was adopted in

24 December of 1990, nothing happened to you and your flat or your house in

25 1991, 1992. And in 1992 you decided, on your own, to leave Knin, isn't

Page 8519

1 that right?

2 A. I -- yes, I came -- I went to Belgrade from Knin on another

3 private business, and after several days, I decided to stay on in Belgrade

4 with my family, a part of my family however remaining in Knin.

5 Q. And have you lived in Belgrade since 1992 to the present?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Okay. Now when you say you don't recall that the constitution of

8 December of 1990 guaranteed Serbs equality with Croats and guaranteed them

9 all ethnic rights, are you saying that, that this is -- that you just

10 really don't remember either way? Or is this the first time you've heard

11 that? Or does that surprise you?

12 A. I do apologise. Would you be so kind as to repeat your question?

13 Q. When you say you don't recall that the constitution of December

14 1990 guaranteed Serbs equality with Croats and their ethnic -- all their

15 ethnic rights, are you saying you don't remember that either way, or are

16 you saying that you don't think that was the case? Or just, if you could

17 explain a little more what you're saying about that.

18 A. I said a while ago that I read that constitution at that time, and

19 even when, with laws that I use in my work, I always have to consult the

20 relevant article. I cannot recall it by heart. But what I do know is

21 what the consequence of that constitution is throughout the area, namely

22 today, I myself, my family, and my friends and acquaintances who want to

23 return to their flats, are unable to do so. We try to return to the

24 village house belonging to my husband, which is entirely devastated, if

25 not torn down altogether. We --

Page 8520

1 Q. Madam --

2 A. -- have different requirements placed before us for that.

3 Q. Madam, those things that you're testifying about that you say are

4 the case now, that -- those are not a result of the constitution, are

5 they? Those are a result of events that happened years later, in 1995 and

6 after that, aren't they?

7 A. Yes. But in my view, it's these things actually started from that

8 constitution. And with that constitution, it was the forerunner of what

9 was to follow. Of course, I am again stating my own opinion and speaking

10 from my own personal experience.

11 Q. Let's move to the core of your testimony, which was about the

12 referendum in May of 1991. I want to go back in time just a bit to the

13 clash that occurred at Plitvice on the 31st of March, 1991.

14 That clash occurred when the SAO Krajina police, Mr. Martic

15 actually, sent a unit of policemen to Plitvice, including -- which

16 included police from the special unit in Knin; isn't that right?

17 A. I could not answer questions dealing with such detail. All I

18 know, it was a conflict between the Krajina police and Croatia's

19 policemen. I only knew as much as I could hear, or read. I was not a

20 direct participant and I'm not aware of details. I knew only as much as

21 every citizen of Knin or Krajina could know.

22 Q. And you do know, though, that there was an immediate reaction in

23 the Krajina after that occurred, and that on the 1st of April 1991, Milan

24 Babic issued a number of decisions, right? Were you aware of that? Or is

25 that something you don't know about?

Page 8521

1 A. All I remember is a decision of Milan Babic's from August, when he

2 declared a state of war, but I really can't remember all of the individual

3 decisions. It's probable that we all read them and heard about them, but

4 I can't remember anything in particular.

5 Q. Well, let me see if I can refresh your recollection. If we could

6 look at Exhibit 144, please.

7 And if we could just blow up the top half there, yes. Do you see,

8 madam, this is a decision dated the 1st of April, 1991.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Excuse me. Do we have the English version at all?

10 MR. WHITING: I'm sorry, I didn't know it was not up. We should

11 have it.

12 Q. And it's issued by Milan Babic, president of the Executive Council

13 of the SAO Krajina. And it is a decision to join the SAO Krajina to the

14 Republic of Serbia which is in the very first article.

15 Do you remember this occurring on the 1st of April, 1991?

16 A. No. No. This is actually the first time I'm seeing the text of

17 the decision.

18 Q. Well, even though it's the first time you're seeing the text of

19 the decision, did you hear about this decision at the time?

20 A. I don't remember this particular decision. I don't know if I

21 heard about it. All I know is that there was this decision about the

22 referendum that I was familiar with at the time when I was chairman of

23 that committee, but I don't remember this one.

24 Q. So you were -- madam --

25 A. I can't say yes or no.

Page 8522

1 Q. So you were familiar with the decision on the referendum; that's

2 your testimony?

3 A. Yes, yes.

4 Q. If we could look at that, please. That is Exhibit 148. And if we

5 could look at the very top paragraph. I'm going to wait until we get the

6 English.

7 Do you see that in the very first paragraph of this decision,

8 which you say you are familiar with, it makes reference to the decision

9 that we were just looking at from the 1st of April, 1991. Based on the

10 right of people to self-determination, the previously-adopted decision on

11 the asession of the Serbian Autonomous District of Krajina to the Republic

12 of Serbia, taken by the Executive Council of the SAO Krajina at its

13 session of 1 April, 1991.

14 So now, -- now that you see that, do you think that maybe you knew

15 about --

16 A. Yes, yes.

17 Q. Now, you testified earlier today, when you were asked questions by

18 Defence counsel, that -- so this, just to be clear, this is on the 30th of

19 April, 1991, and the previous document was on the 1st of April, 1991.

20 You testified that when Milan Babic -- when Milan Babic wanted the

21 referendum to be about annexing the SAO Krajina to Serbia, that Slobodan

22 Milosevic got angry and wanted it to be about Yugoslavia. Right? Do you

23 remember that testimony?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And in fact, Milan Babic wanted the referendum to be -- have the

Page 8523

1 same wording as the decision of 1 April 1991 and to say -- to ask whether

2 the voters were in favour of annexing the SAO Krajina to Serbia, right;

3 that it would follow that same wording.

4 A. After this 30th of April, 1991, I don't know how the decision was

5 formulated. I was not -- I was not a direct participant in that. But if

6 you're interested in the part that I knew about as chairman of the

7 committee, when we were about to formulate the contents, the text of the

8 ballot, Milan Babic said, in a circle of his associates, that Milosevic

9 was very much against that formulation being placed on the ballot,

10 including the words accession of Krajina to Serbia; that he wanted the

11 text to read: Do you want the Krajina to remain within the same state as

12 Serbia and Montenegro?

13 And if you want to ask me things about the part of the work in

14 which I was directly involved as chairman of that committee, I can answer

15 that question positively.

16 Q. And -- well, we'll get to that topic, but I want to see if you

17 know anything about these things since you testified about these matters.

18 In fact, Milan Babic changed -- changed the question as a result

19 of pressure from Slobodan Milosevic. He changed it from simply asking

20 whether the voters wanted the SAO Krajina to be annexed or become part of

21 Serbia, and he included becoming part of Yugoslavia and that's how the

22 question is phrased here in this decision, right? He added the part about

23 staying in Yugoslavia. Right?

24 A. Yes, yes.

25 Q. And that was a result of the pressure from Slobodan Milosevic,

Page 8524

1 wasn't it?

2 A. I can only tell you what I heard from late Milan Babic, namely

3 that Slobodan Milosevic was terribly angry that those were the words he

4 used, about the idea to put this wording in the ballot. I can only tell

5 you about what he passed on to us. He wanted the referendum to be about

6 whether Krajina wanted to remain within Yugoslavia together with Serbia

7 and Montenegro.

8 Q. And --

9 A. However, this is the text that was actually used in the ballot.

10 Q. Well, madam, Slobodan Milosevic wanted it to speak about

11 Yugoslavia, because the strategy of the Serb leaders in Belgrade and in

12 particular of Slobodan Milosevic was, at that time, to speak about

13 preserving Yugoslavia rather than about creating a Serb state. Isn't that

14 right?

15 A. From what I know, the entire Serb people in Krajina, that is in

16 Croatia, was in favour of preserving Yugoslavia, and that is the truth.

17 Q. With Slovenia moving towards the cesession and Croatia moving

18 towards cessesion, preserving Yugoslavia was becoming -- was, in essence,

19 no different than preserving the Serb areas in Yugoslavia, isn't that

20 right?

21 A. Yugoslavia was a state where we all lived very well, regardless of

22 our ethnicity and the particular area where we lived. And it's a fact,

23 again, that the Serb people were scattered across many regions, including

24 Croatia and it was in their vital interest to preserve Yugoslavia. And

25 it's certain that these people really wanted that. From what I know, and

Page 8525

1 from what we understood, the Belgrade leadership also wanted and worked

2 for the preservation of Yugoslavia.

3 Q. But for them, the preservation of Yugoslavia meant keeping

4 together the Serb areas, isn't that right?

5 A. Well, we wanted the entire Croatia to remain within Yugoslavia.

6 Q. Now --

7 A. And the Serb people could have stayed within that Croatia as a

8 part of Yugoslavia. Unfortunately --

9 Q. So ma'am?

10 A. -- it didn't happen that way and that's how it came about that

11 Krajina separated itself.

12 Q. So Madam, you're not aware that by say June or July of 1991,

13 Slobodan Milosevic didn't care if Slovenia left Yugoslavia and if the

14 Croatian, majority parts of Croatia left Yugoslavia so long as the Serb

15 part of Croatia stayed in Yugoslavia? You're not aware of that?

16 A. Well, to tell you frankly I'm not a politician. I was not so

17 involved in those things. I know just as much as the regular citizen

18 knew. But what I know, that it's the dissolution of Yugoslavia that

19 finally brought about this situation that we have today, that many people

20 do not have any homes to return to. And what I told you here is what I

21 knew about the referendum I was involved in and what I heard from Mr.

22 Babic about his talks with Mr. Milosevic.

23 As for the other things, I cannot tell you with any certainty,

24 because I'm not a politician.

25 Q. Madam, okay --

Page 8526

1 A. -- and it was not my intention to speak about the things I don't

2 know about.

3 Q. Let's, let's continue talking about the referendum. You testified

4 on Friday that the turnout in the referendum was 100 per cent. Do you

5 remember that testimony? It's at page 73 of the testimony from Friday.

6 A. I can't really say how many people turned out, but I seem to

7 remember a percentage of 98 point something per cent. In fact 98.8 per

8 cent voted for, and --

9 Q. Well --

10 A. I just know that the turnout was large. I don't know how many,

11 but out of those who turned out, I know that 98 point something per cent

12 voted for. I cannot give you the exact number.

13 Q. Well, you appreciate the difference between telling us how many --

14 what percentage of people voted for, and what percentage of people turned

15 out to vote? Those are two very different things, correct?

16 A. Yes of course.

17 Q. And you testified on Friday, and we spoke earlier today about

18 being precise in testimony. You testified on Friday that the turnout was

19 100 per cent. Are you changing that testimony today?

20 A. No. I said that out of the number that turned out, over 98 per

21 cent voted for, that is still etched in my memory. But I don't remember

22 how many turned out. I think -- this is very viable, the material has

23 been sealed, all of it, and it's been filed, archived.

24 Q. Well madam --

25 A. These documents are available for verification. We can easily

Page 8527

1 find out.

2 Q. Well I'm just reading from your testimony on Friday when you

3 said -- it's at my page 73. It's probably around 8472, the page numbers

4 shifted a little bit. But you said: "The referendum was conducted in all

5 the municipalities which I enumerated. The turnout was 100 per cent shall

6 I say." That was your testimony on Friday?

7 A. Possibly it was a clumsy interpretation. All I know is that 98

8 per cent or more voted for. I don't know. Maybe I expressed myself

9 clumsily, or -- anyway, what I'm telling you now is that a very large

10 percentage turned out.

11 Q. Like --

12 A. And 98 per cent or more voted for.

13 Q. Well, let's look at --

14 A. Anyway, it's all on the record.

15 Q. It is. Let's look at your report, 149, which is Exhibit 149,

16 which is in evidence. And if we could look at page 6 of the B/C/S and

17 page 4 of the English, please.

18 I think we have the B/C/S on the English screen. Now, do you see

19 in the last sentence of the document that it says that 79.48 per cent of

20 the voters on the electoral roll came out to vote.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, Mr. Whiting. We still don't have the

22 English one. I have B/C/S on both screens.

23 MR. WHITING: I have English on mine.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you? Okay. Let me try again. It has now come

25 up.

Page 8528

1 MR. WHITING: It's the last sentence at the bottom of the page.

2 Q. Would you accept now that the turnout was in fact 79.48 per cent?

3 Right? Do you see that at the bottom?

4 A. Yes. Yes, I stand by this. It is certain, what is written in the

5 record is accurate.

6 Q. Now --

7 A. And that was verified by all the members of the commission of

8 which I was the chairperson.

9 Q. Madam, we just need to try to save time here, so you fully

10 answered the question when you said "yes."

11 Now, I would like to look specifically at the turnout in the Knin

12 municipality, and if we could look at page 3 of the English and page 5 of

13 the B/C/S.

14 You have it on the English, but now you have lost it. Now you

15 have the B/C/S on the English. Thank you. We're focusing on section 10,

16 the Knin municipality.

17 Do you see that it says the number of registered voters was

18 40,520, and the number of people who voted was 37,141, or 91.66 per cent.

19 Do you see that?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And 91.66 per cent is almost identical to the percentage of Serbs

22 that were living in the Knin municipality at that time, according to you;

23 isn't that right?

24 A. Well, to tell you the truth, I know the figure was about 92 per

25 cent of Serbs, but I cannot give you the exact figure. I can only say

Page 8529

1 that I stand by this record, that's what the original committee wrote --

2 Q. Madam, I didn't --

3 A. -- and recorded and I don't want to comment further on it.

4 Q. Madam, I didn't ask you anything about standing by the record. I

5 was only asking if the percentage of voters in the Knin municipality

6 matched almost identically the percentage of Serbs in the Knin

7 municipality and I take it your answer is "yes."

8 A. Yes, almost. Yes.

9 Q. Now, by the way, you testified that -- you testified that the -- a

10 number of people came from Zadar and other places outside the SAO Krajina

11 to vote, and that under the Rules, they were not allowed to vote because

12 they didn't have residence in the SAO Krajina, right?

13 A. Yes, yes.

14 Q. Why didn't you just tell them that, tell them they were not

15 allowed to vote and send them home?

16 A. Well, let us get one thing straight. The people that you are

17 referring to are not included in this number here. They were not sent

18 away, simply because -- because we tried to avoid incidents at the polling

19 places, if we had tried to send them away. And we talked about it within

20 the committee. It was not according to the law to let them vote and it

21 was out of the question, but if somebody had come such a long way from

22 Zadar or Sibenik, we didn't want to embarass them or cause them any

23 unpleasantness at the polling places. They were simply given a piece of

24 paper to circle the name, but that did not have any influence on the legal

25 procedure of the referendum, nor were their votes reflected in the vote

Page 8530

1 count.

2 Q. Madam, did you tell the people who were voting, or thought they

3 were voting, that in fact their votes would not count?

4 A. I don't remember whether we explained it to them, but it's a fact

5 that their votes were not taken into account and we make that clear in the

6 report made later to the Assembly. It's no secret. On an individual

7 basis, we did tell some of them, not everybody, but that didn't cause any

8 problem, nor did it detract from the legal procedure of the referendum.

9 Q. Now, this report you presented to the Assembly of the SAO Krajina,

10 correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And do you remember Milan Babic making a speech after the report

13 was presented?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. I would like to listen to part of that speech, please, and we're

16 going to play it on the Sanction, and the English text will go alongside

17 of it. So if we could switch over to the Sanction.

18 [Videotape played]

19 "The desire and will of the Serbian people in SAO Krajina not to

20 live in any kind of --"

21 MR. WHITING: Let me just stop you there. Is it possible,

22 because, to listen to the -- without it being read? Or do the

23 interpreters have to read it?

24 THE INTERPRETER: Normally for the French, it is necessary to have

25 an English audio.

Page 8531

1 MR. WHITING: It would be nice to listen to it -- maybe if we

2 could listen to it one time so we can hear the voice, and then we can play

3 it again if the French booth requires it. I don't know if the French

4 booth could give an indication. Of course I can't hear because I don't

5 have the French microphone.

6 THE REGISTRAR: It needs to be added into the transcript.

7 MR. WHITING: We could do that. We could do that later. So if we

8 can just play it and hear the voice and then read the transcript.

9 [Videotape played]

10 MR. WHITING: Could we bring up on the e-court the transcript of

11 that. It's ETT000-1182 because I want to look at just a few particular

12 sentences.

13 Q. But Madam, while that that is being done, do you remember Milan

14 Babic speaking those words at the Assembly session, after the report was

15 submitted?

16 A. Frankly speaking, after 15 years, I do not recall the exact words

17 uttered by him. I do remember that after the report Milan Babic delivered

18 a speech, but this is certainly his voice. This is an authentic

19 recording, that much I can say, knowing his voice. But hadn't you played

20 this, I wouldn't be able to remember. I only know that he did deliver a

21 speech, but I cannot recall his very words after 15 years, really.

22 Q. Well, I wouldn't expect you to remember his very words, but we're

23 going to look at some particular sentences and see if you remember some of

24 the meaning of some of the things he said.

25 Now, on this, we only have the English transcript. We don't have

Page 8532

1 a transcript in B/C/S, but the witness has heard it.

2 Well, I think I -- I can ask you the first question. Do you

3 recall him saying, just now, in the first sentence of that little clip,

4 that the referendum showed, demonstrated that Serbs in Croatia did not

5 want to live in any kind of Croatian state, and that was a view shared by

6 many Serbs in the Krajina, wasn't it?

7 A. I cannot repeat verbatim what the late Dr. Milan Babic said, but

8 it is a fact that having been expunged from the constitution as a

9 constituent people, the Serbs did not want to continue living in a

10 separate state of Croatia, that is correct.

11 Q. He also said, in that little clip, that the SAO Krajina belongs

12 ethnically and historically with Serbia. And that was also a view that

13 was shared by many Serbs in the Krajina, wasn't it, by Serb leaders in the

14 Krajina? Not just Milan Babic, but the other Serb leaders?

15 A. Serbia is the parent country of the Serbs irrespective of where

16 they lived. So this is only a normal relationship towards one's parent

17 state and especially in view of the circumstances, the dissolution of a

18 joint state in which we all had lived phenomenal lives, whereas all of a

19 sudden a constitution is being adopted from which you are chucked out as a

20 constituent people, so that it is quite normal that you should -- that

21 should only foster your basic feelings towards your parent state.

22 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter would just like to add that in

23 the initial sentence of the transcript that we heard there is the

24 adjective, a separate state of Croatia which is not in the English that we

25 saw.

Page 8533

1 MR. WHITING: Thank you, I'm grateful to the interpreter.

2 Q. In fact Milan Babic in that passage talked about the communist

3 period, that is the period from World War II until essentially until 1990

4 as a period when -- that had divided and separated the Serbs and he talked

5 about uniting with Serbia to "correct the historical injustice that was

6 being made to them during the period of Communism."

7 Wasn't that the view of many Serb leaders in the Krajina at the

8 time?

9 A. I cannot -- I wouldn't like to comment and I'm not qualified to

10 comment on anyone's statements. I gave you an answer loud and clear to

11 the part to which I can give you an answer, but I did not involve myself

12 with this subject matter. So what I can say is that the -- when this

13 Christmas constitution was adopted, when the Serbs were expunged from it,

14 in the way I described, this is where the story ends for me. I am no

15 historian. I cannot comment on this portion of the statement. I do

16 apologise, but that is a fact.

17 Q. You're just not aware of that, you're just not aware about whether

18 Serb leaders held that view? You don't know? Is that what you're telling

19 us?

20 A. As regards the opinions of the Serb leaders about the communist

21 regime, that is something that I never dealt with, and that is something

22 that I certainly don't know.

23 Q. Well, what about -- what about towards the end of that clip, he

24 talks about the Serbs living in a single country and about "the removal of

25 barricades represented in the republics' boundaries." And if we could

Page 8534

1 look at page -- for that, if we could look at page 4 of this transcript.

2 I'm grateful for --

3 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter would just like to say that the

4 original says "barriers" and not "barricades". And apart from that, there

5 are many other things which need to be corrected in the English

6 translation.

7 MR. WHITING: I'm grateful. We will endeavour to get another

8 translation to get all of those things corrected.

9 Q. Do you remember him saying that, talking about "the removal of

10 barriers represented in the republic's boundaries"?

11 A. No. Of course I don't remember. I just heard it here, now. But

12 what is of the essence is, when we lived in Yugoslavia, we had bound areas

13 that were administrative bound areas, which really didn't mean a thing to

14 us. We were all living in one state called Yugoslavia. We felt it to be

15 our state. We felt very secure and safe in it. Whether in Croatia, in

16 Bosnia and Montenegro, the laws were federal. We all felt that this was

17 our state. This one country, Yugoslavia, and only in it did we feel safe

18 and secure. That is what I can say personally, that is my feeling, the

19 feeling of my friends and my community, my people.

20 Q. In fact, Madam, Milan Babic was happy to have the republican

21 boundaries disappear and to have Serb areas unite, wasn't he?

22 A. Well of course, he probably wished for the Serbian areas to unite

23 and especially after what was happening, it is only logical that we Serbs

24 wanted some sort of a guarantee, some sort of a Yugoslavia to be set up.

25 Q. Ma'am, you answered the question. You would agree with me, would

Page 8535

1 you not, that Milan Babic was the highest or at least one of the highest

2 and most important political leaders in the SAO Krajina at the time,

3 correct? He was president of the executive council.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Thank you. Your Honour, could this transcript be admitted into

6 evidence, with the understanding that we will have it -- have the

7 translation checked.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: The transcript is admitted into evidence and may it

9 please be given an exhibit number, and the understanding is that the

10 translation will be checked.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, the next exhibit number is Exhibit

12 955.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Yes, Mr. Whiting.

14 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Q. Now, I want to ask you a few questions about your trip to Serbia.

16 You testified that you went to Belgrade to present the results of the

17 referendum and you were not allowed to do so, and that this was Slobodan

18 Milosevic's decision, as you understood it. Correct?

19 A. That was Slobodan Milosevic's decision, as was transmitted to us

20 by the then vice president, Boro Petrovic and Pavic Obradovic who were the

21 vice president of the Assembly of Serbia. We were there for a couple of

22 days and it was touch and go, and in the end they said that they wouldn't

23 accept it.

24 Q. Madam, was it communicated to you that Slobodan Milosevic made

25 this decision because -- for essentially political reasons, because at

Page 8536

1 that time, if he had accepted this annexation, it would have been the

2 first change in the borders in the former Yugoslavia, correct?

3 A. No one conveyed to us the reasons or the comments of Slobodan

4 Milosevic. The only thing we were told is that we could not go inside the

5 conference hall, and all we wanted is that the Serbian people should hear

6 what the decision was, because the Assembly meeting was being broadcast.

7 But we were decidely told --

8 Q. Ma'am, there was no secret about this referendum. Everybody in

9 the former Yugoslavia knew about the referendum, right? And knew the

10 results. You nodded your head "yes." But that is not recorded on the

11 transcript.

12 A. Yes, yes. The referendum was absolutely public, and the results

13 were carried in the then official bulletin, Official Gazette of the SAO

14 Krajina. And as I've already told you, there was between 100, 150 foreign

15 and domestic journalists on that day when the referendum was being held.

16 What was in the head of Slobodan Milosevic when he didn't -- wouldn't

17 allow --

18 Q. Madam, if we could look at an article from Borba, from the 22nd of

19 May, 1991. And it's ERN 0266-6814.

20 Now, do you see, it's the -- it should be the fourth paragraph of

21 the article, which may not be visible. There. Okay. And if we could

22 have the English. This is an article about the Serbian parliament

23 considering whether to discuss the requests of the Krajina Serbs, and it

24 says in the fourth paragraph -- I don't know if it's visible on the screen

25 to you, it says: "It is therefore perfectly logical that the opposition

Page 8537

1 should wait for the socialist party of Serbia, SPS, to speak first.

2 Do you see that?

3 A. Yes, I do.

4 Q. And the SPS was Slobodan Milosevic's party, correct?

5 A. Correct.

6 Q. And it goes on to say, this is is he bottom of the English, it

7 goes on to say that, in the next paragraph that: "The national opposition

8 has believed, from the very beginning, that any changes to the borders,

9 prior to an agreement on the future of Yugoslavia, would, in fact, mean

10 the start of war."

11 And that was the problem with -- that was the problem with

12 accepting the delegation from the Krajina, wasn't it, that Serbia did not

13 want to be the first to endorse a change in the boundaries in the former

14 Yugoslavia. Or put another way, did not want to be seen to be the first?

15 Is that right? Or do you not know?

16 A. I don't know. I can only tell you that that evening we were

17 received by both representatives of the authorities and of the opposition,

18 and we -- the representatives of the opposition were much closer to us.

19 It was the socialist party that was deciding, making the decision whether

20 we would be able to enter the Assembly or not. But I'm not sure, and I

21 wouldn't want to give you any explanation about things that I'm not sure

22 about.

23 Q. Okay. Could this document be admitted into evidence, please, Your

24 Honour.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

Page 8538

1 please be given an exhibit number.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this is Exhibit 956.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.

4 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Q. You testified about a meeting that you had with Borislav Jovic and

6 then with Slobodan Milosevic. Do you recall that testimony that was both

7 on Friday and today?

8 A. Yes, I do.

9 Q. That was a televised event, that was televised, wasn't it?

10 A. The one in the Presidency was, and the one with Milosevic was not.

11 Q. Do you recall that Veljko Dzakula was at that meeting?

12 A. I cannot remember, because I only know the people from Knin who

13 were with me, Mr. Nebojsa Madinic. But actually, I did not know those

14 people. They all introduced themselves, saying from which municipality

15 they came, but I cannot remember all their names. I know more or less the

16 municipalities which they represented, but not their names and I don't

17 know whether I ever saw them again, in fact.

18 Q. Did you know that Veljko Dzakula was from Western Slavonia?

19 A. Yes. I know that and I believe that he came from Pakrac, but I

20 did not have any particular contacts with him. I just remember that he

21 came from Pakrac. And in particular I remember that because the

22 referendum was not conducted in Pakrac, according to the law, and that was

23 an issue.

24 Q. Do you remember him standing up at the meeting and saying that

25 these stories that were being recounted at this meeting were in fact an

Page 8539

1 exaggeration? Do you remember him saying that?

2 A. No, I don't remember that to tell you the truth. I don't even

3 remember what he looked like, if he was there.

4 Q. Do you remember him -- do you remember him or somebody from

5 Western Slavonia standing up and saying that he couldn't believe that,

6 that all of these Serbs were being threatened even though they were from

7 areas where Serbs were the overwhelming majority? Do you remember that

8 being said at the meeting?

9 A. I only remember my personal impression, which was that I was

10 astonished at what the people there were saying, because we had no such

11 experiences in Knin. So that I was literally flabbergasted at some of

12 their stories. And I repeat, there was this story --

13 Q. Madam --

14 A. -- which a doctor told us.

15 Q. There is really no need to repeat your testimony.

16 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Mr. Whiting, could you make yourself clear of what

17 meeting you are talking where Mr. Dzakula was supposedly standing up and

18 saying that the meeting with Jovic or Milosevic?

19 MR. WHITING: My recollection is that it is Milosevic from the

20 testimony. It is at page 3 --


22 JUDGE HOEPFEL: You were just saying their meeting, and I want it

23 to be clear for the witness.

24 MR. WHITING: Yes, I appreciate that.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: I thought you just said that the televised meeting

Page 8540

1 was the one with Jovic.

2 MR. WHITING: Right. But I didn't mean to say that it was

3 necessarily the televised meeting.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: I beg your pardon. I'm sorry. Perhaps we could

5 clarify.

6 MR. WHITING: Yes, I can do that. If I could just have a moment.

7 Q. Okay. It was, just to be clear -- thank you, Your Honour. It was

8 in the meeting with Milosevic.

9 Do you remember Mr. Dzakula saying these things in the meeting

10 with Milosevic? It is at page 395-396 of our transcript. Does that help

11 you remember this?

12 A. No, I don't remember. I -- first of all, I don't know whether Mr.

13 Dzakula was there at all. We all introduced ourselves as representing our

14 respective municipalities. No one in fact said their names.

15 Q. Madam --

16 A. They just said I come from this or that municipality.

17 Q. There is really no need to repeat that. You said you don't

18 remember. I won't pursue it, unless Your Honour --

19 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Could you maybe tell us if you remember if there

20 was anyone arguing in this sense. You said something about having been

21 surprised about some statements in this meeting. Can you connect this one

22 with the other?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't make any statements to that

24 effect myself. I was personally surprised, consternated, appalled at what

25 people there said, but I don't remember, since 15 years have passed. I

Page 8541

1 don't even remember whether the name Mr. Dzakula was there or not. I

2 didn't know him. So --

3 JUDGE HOEPFEL: So therefore I was asking, was there a person, no

4 matter who was it, arguing in this sense? Was this what you now are

5 referring to as apalling statements of people?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have to repeat that I personally

7 felt that way because we had nothing of the kind, of the things that they

8 were talking about in Knin. So that I was surprised. I was really

9 bewildered to hear the things that they were talking about, and that is

10 about -- that is as much as I can say about that.

11 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Well, what do you mean? I think this is now our

12 question. When you say, I was surprised of the things which were said

13 there?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I was surprised when one of

15 these doctors related a case and he talked about it in those meetings with

16 Mr. Jovic and with Mr. Milosevic, which is that his calling doctor was

17 taken away from his workplace and nothing is known about him. And he also

18 said that people were being laid off on a wide scale, because they were

19 Serbs, and really, I was really surprised to hear such accounts. This was

20 televised, this meeting was televised. I mean the meeting with Mr. Jovic.

21 But there were no records being kept so that I could perhaps jog my

22 memory.

23 And another thing. The Serbs from Croatia asked to be received in

24 the Presidency as some sort of a shoulder to cry on in order to air their

25 grievances and everybody just came and told their story, without there

Page 8542

1 being any conclusions really drawn or made. So that was it.

2 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Was there someone who took the opposite view and

3 said that these complaints were exaggerated?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well as far as I remember, no.

5 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you. That was my attempt to clarify.

6 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour. And I think it is

7 clarified.

8 Q. Now, you testified about a Katica Cacic. Am I saying her name

9 correctly?

10 A. Cacic, yes.

11 Q. Cacic.

12 A. Yes, Cacic, actually, if you can pronounce it. It's a soft "c".

13 Q. In my ear we're saying the same thing, but I can appreciate that

14 you hear something different. In any event, this person, this person

15 received help after you went and spoke to Mr. Matkovic and Mr. Martic,

16 correct? That's all I needed --

17 A. Yes, I talked to Mr. Matkovic, yes.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 A. -- and by telephone with Mr. Martic.

20 Q. Thank you. You spoke about Drnis. Did you know that on the 16th

21 of September, 1991, Drnis was attacked by the army and the SAO Krajina

22 police together?

23 A. As regards the specifics about these operations, who attacked whom

24 and when, I really don't know anything about that. I know that the army

25 mounted an operation in Drnis.

Page 8543

1 Q. But did you know --

2 A. But I --

3 Q. Did you know that the police also participated in that operation

4 along with the army?

5 A. No, I don't.

6 Q. Did you know that as a result of that operation Drnis was

7 completely destroyed?

8 A. No. I was never in Drnis after that and I don't know whether or

9 how -- to what extent it was destroyed. I only solely worked with

10 refugees and dealt with refugees, and that is the only thing that I can

11 talk about in respect of that period, and I certainly cannot talk about

12 things that I didn't see with my eyes.

13 Q. Did any of the refugees tell you that the -- that Drnis had been

14 completely destroyed and that the police and army had participated in

15 looting in Drnis during that operation in September of 1991?

16 A. No, no. People, when they come, refugees who have to leave

17 their -- who have had to leave their homes, whatever ethnicity they may

18 be, they're just retched and miserable and unhappy and all they want from

19 you is to take care of them, give them some assistance and care and, I

20 really did not venture to talk with them about any other subject. The

21 only thing that we discussed and -- was giving them help and the only

22 thing that we tried to do was to give them assistance.

23 Q. If I could just put one last question on this topic, please. Did

24 you know that Drnis was 75 per cent Croat in its population?

25 A. I'm not quite sure of their per centage in Drnis, that being the

Page 8544

1 municipality that I never worked in. I passed through Drnis.

2 Q. Madam --

3 A. -- on occasion. I don't know what the per centage is.

4 Q. Thank you, Your Honour, I think it's a convenient time?

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. We will take a break and come

6 back at quarter to six. Court adjourned

7 --- Recess taken at 5.18 p.m.

8 --- On resuming at 5.45 p.m.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Whiting.

10 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Q. Thank you, madam. I actually have no further questions. Thank

12 you, Your Honour?

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Whiting. Mr.

14 Milovancevic.

15 Re-Examination by Mr. Milovancevic.

16 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. Mrs. Vujanic, let me ask you a few questions as a follow-up to the

18 cross-examination. Do you remember one question as to whether and how

19 often you used the term Ustashas?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you consider all Croats to be Ustashas?

22 A. Of course not.

23 Q. Were Ustashas war criminals, in yours eyes?

24 A. Ustashas, yes.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic, don't tell the answer. The

Page 8545

1 question should be: What were Ustashas?

2 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Q. How do you perceive the independent state of Croatia? What kind

4 of state was it?

5 MR. WHITING: I object. Objection. I take it this is a question

6 about the independent state of Croatia in World War II, and I didn't ask

7 any questions about World War II.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Which independent state of Croatia are you asking

9 about, Mr. Milovancevic?

10 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] The independent state of

11 Croatia in World War II. Only that. Nothing else.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Then there is an objection. Do you have any

13 response to the objection?

14 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] I withdraw the question, Your

15 Honour.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Milovancevic.

17 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Do you remember another question by the Prosecutor concerning the

19 killing of Vaso Pecar?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you remember answering that people were saying it was the

22 Ustashas who killed him?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. How many people, to the best of your knowledge, attended the

25 funeral of Vaso Pecar?

Page 8546

1 A. I attended the funeral myself. I cannot estimate the number, but

2 I had the feeling that the entire Knin was there. There were many people,

3 and I know that people from other municipalities also came, from Bosnian

4 municipalities and Lika municipalities, three, three-and-a-half thousand.

5 Q. Why do you believe it was important to mention the death of Vaso

6 Pecar?

7 A. I thought it was important because after that, there began to

8 prevail a sort of psychosis in Knin and everywhere I went. Tensions were

9 high and it is from that point on that the term Ustashas was used more

10 often, because people said, other things, that his grandfather was also

11 killed by the Ustashas in 1941, and as I said here, I don't know first

12 hand who killed him, but that's what the people were saying.

13 Q. Thank you. My learned friend from the Prosecution asked you a

14 number of questions regarding the so-called Christmas constitution of

15 Croatia and he asked you, among other things, whether you were aware that

16 ethnic rights were guaranteed to the Serbs by the constitution. Do you

17 remember the question?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. In response to the question from the Prosecutor, you used the word

20 catastrophically to describe the situation surrounding the adoption of

21 that constitution. What exactly was catastrophic about it?

22 A. Well, that was my general feeling. It was shared by the people

23 around me. But everything that went wrong in our region started with that

24 constitution because a people that used to be a nation building

25 constituent people until then suddenly was turned into an ethnic minority.

Page 8547

1 Q. Thank you. My colleague from the Prosecution asked you if you

2 remember the provision of that Christmas constitution of Croatia that

3 guaranteed ethnic rights to Serbs. I want to ask you something else.

4 What about the practice where ethnic rights actually guaranteed in

5 practice and were you able to exercise them?

6 A. Well, that's what I was trying to say all along. Certainly not.

7 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no further

8 questions.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Milovancevic. Judge.

10 Questioned by the Court:

11 JUDGE HOEPFEL: I wouldn't have had any special questions. Just

12 this last point shows me that there might be a misunderstanding. You were

13 asked about the constitution, but you answered, in a sense which was

14 probably apparently more related to the practice, not so much to the

15 letter of the constitution. Is that possible? Because you were then

16 saying, that's what I was trying to say all along. Due to this statement,

17 I'm asking.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My entire testimony before this

19 Tribunal concerning this constitution had the objective of making the

20 point that this constitution, throughout Serbs as a constituent people,

21 and for me that's the end of the story. We know what that resulted in,

22 and now, 15 years later, I, as many other people, hundreds and thousands

23 are still unable to return to my apartment there.

24 JUDGE HOEPFEL: I don't think you can say "we know what this ended

25 in." And this is also not what I asked you. Maybe, can you give me an

Page 8548

1 example where the constitutional principle of equality of the ethnic

2 groups was only in the book, but not in practice noticeable. Just an

3 example.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I cannot remember the exact

5 wording in the constitution where it says that Serbs have equal rights as

6 the Croats, but simply it's not true. Even if it is written, in practice

7 that is not so.

8 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Is that your answer?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Give me an example.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, at the time when this

12 constitution guaranteed equality for all people regardless of ethnicity,

13 many Serbs were dismissed from their jobs, and I have specific examples,

14 people I know, people who had come to Knin from Zadar and other places and

15 later found jobs in the judiciary in Knin. It's just that my

16 acquaintanceship is limited. I know the people who worked in my line of

17 work, and many people had indeed come from other places after losing their

18 jobs there.

19 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you. No further questions from my side.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, judge. Judge?

21 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Just one. Could you please tell me in, or

22 rather, on the 2nd of April, 1991, which laws were the applicable laws in

23 the SAOK.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Until the adoption of legislation of

25 SAO Krajina in which I was involved, it was the laws of the Federal

Page 8549

1 Republic of Yugoslavia that applied.

2 I specifically drafted the law on the Public Attorney's Office,

3 and some other laws of SAO Krajina. ^^^

4 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Thank you. Now you referred to federal laws,

5 but are there not --

6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: I'm so sorry. My apologies are in order.

8 Are there not also laws of the republic, as well as federal laws,

9 that are applicable to a particular territory usually? Do you agree with

10 that?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. There existed republic laws

12 along with federal ones. There existed the legislation of the Republic of

13 Croatia, but they did not apply on the territory of Krajina.

14 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: So which laws were in existence on the 2nd of

15 April, 1991, in terms of republican law?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was the federal law, if you

17 mean the referendum --

18 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: You told us about that before. But remember I

19 asked you to address your mind to the question of the republic.

20 Technically, would SAOK have been part of Croatia still?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After the decision was adopted,

22 obviously it was not a part of Croatia and did not act as a part of

23 Croatia. We were what we were. And I can say that very shortly -- I even

24 had a clash with Mr. Milan Babic when he offered me to be the Minister of

25 Education which I refused. I wanted to continue in my job. Anyway, we

Page 8550

1 drafted very quickly legislation of our own, and I participated in the

2 drafting of some particular laws, such as the law on the Public Attorney's

3 Office. And we started to implement, to enforce our own legislation in

4 the territory of Krajina very soon.

5 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Thank you. Now the decision having been taken

6 to annex the Krajina to Serbia, and that Serbian law should be applicable,

7 did the position remain the same? Or did it change, in terms of the

8 applicable law?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I could not say whether some

10 Serbian laws were applied. As for my area of work, I know that the law on

11 the Public Attorney's Office was adopted very shortly and it was that law

12 that applied and it was a high priority, because when I spoke about the

13 moving out of people and the case of the Cacic family, I always worked for

14 the greatest possible implementation of laws in the territory of Krajina,

15 and that's why I advocated expeditious adoption of our own legislation and

16 I travelled several times to Belgrade for that purpose.

17 For instance, in the territory of Krajina we didn't have a single

18 economic court in the territory of Krajina. And together with a colleague

19 of mine, who was a refugee from Slunj or some other area, Mrs. Branka

20 Sijan, since she was from Zagreb and didn't know Belgrade, anyway I spent

21 five days with her in Belgrade because we had consultations and we were

22 very well received by the competent person. I'm sorry if I am keeping

23 you. I was just trying to explain, to give you a better picture.

24 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: And I am very grateful to you, Mrs. Vujanic.

25 How do you pronounce your name?

Page 8551

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ljubica Vujanic.

2 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Something else I want to ask you, before the

3 republic of Serbia and Krajina was established, was there any order made

4 or decision made by way of revocation of the fact that the laws of Serbia

5 would be the applicable law?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean when it was the Republic of

7 Serbia and Krajina, or you mean the period of SAO Krajina? When the RSK

8 was proclaimed I was already in Belgrade. I could not tell you one way or

9 another.

10 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Pardon me. I was really referring to the period

11 between the decision and then the birth of the RSK. That is what I wanted

12 to find out from you, but you said you are not able to give it to me. I

13 want to thank you very much for your answers.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. Laws were passed between

15 the period of SAO Krajina and the RSK period. I know that some laws,

16 including the one I worked on, was passed while I was still in Knin, very

17 soon after the establishment of SAO Krajina.

18 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Thank you very much. No further questions, Mr.

19 Presiding Judge. Thank you.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Mrs. Vujanic, I have a few questions to

21 ask you, too.

22 When you went with the delegation to Belgrade to report to the

23 Assembly of Serbia about the results of the referendum, are you able to

24 tell us why you chose -- when I say "you", I mean the people of Krajina --

25 chose to go to Serbia to give the report, why not to Bosnia Herzegovina or

Page 8552

1 why not to the federal SFRY?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, that's some other country,

3 Serbia, and it was a matter of course, in view of the text that was on the

4 ballot, whether somebody agreed with it or not, and we simply thought that

5 is the right place to submit that report.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you saying Serbia was another country?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was a republic within Yugoslavia.

8 But it was our mother republic state, what will you, on the Serbian

9 people.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: You've just been asked questions by Judge Nosworthy

11 on my right, and you said that the laws that were applicable on the 2nd of

12 April were the federal laws.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Why not the Serbian laws, if Serbia was the mother

15 republic you wanted to identify with? Why the federal laws?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because we lived in the Federal

17 Republic of Yugoslavia, and we wanted to stay in the Federal Republic of

18 Yugoslavia. And on the entire territory of Yugoslavia, federal laws

19 applied, and --

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: The problem is, you know, Mrs. Vujanic, that's

21 precisely what I don't understand.

22 You decide to go and report to the Assembly of Serbia, not to the

23 Assembly of Yugoslavia. And yet you want to stay within Yugoslavia. But

24 having decided to go and report to the Assembly of Serbia, you apply the

25 laws of Yugoslavia and not the laws of Serbia. I'm perceiving an apparent

Page 8553

1 inconsistency here and I would like you to reconcile this for me.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I will try, to the

3 best of my ability, to clarify that. So we lived in the Federal Republic

4 of Yugoslavia under its federal legislation and it was made up of

5 republics, of course.

6 At the time when we were going to the Presidency, I don't remember

7 when it became the rump Presidency, but it's a fact that already at that

8 time, as far as the federal parliament and the rest was concerned, I don't

9 know if it was still functioning. But in view of the text on the ballot

10 where the question was, whether we were going to stay within the state

11 made up of Serbia and Montenegro and join them, it was obvious Serbia was

12 the obvious choice.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: I understand Serbia was the obvious choice. What I

14 don't understand is why it is not the obvious choice to make Serbian laws

15 applicable. Why do we then make federal laws applicable? Why do we want

16 to join the republic and instead of using -- applying the laws of the

17 republic we want to join, why do we now want the laws of the federation?

18 That's my question.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can answer this way. I can't

20 remember and I can't say with any certainty that we did not apply the laws

21 of Serbia in some areas. But I know that in some areas we applied the

22 federal law, because it applied to the whole territory of Yugoslavia.

23 I know, however, only the laws in my line of work, and that's the

24 law on the public prosecutor -- sorry, Republic Attorney's Office. Very

25 soon we adopted our own, and started implementing it.

Page 8554

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: I understand that. But in answer to the questions

2 from the Judge on my right, you said, clearly, that on the 2nd of April

3 the laws applicable were federal law, not Serbian republican laws and yet

4 you want to join Serbia. You are not saying you want to join, to --

5 you're not going to report to the federal Assembly. You are reporting to

6 the republican Assembly of Serbia. But you apply federal laws. This is

7 what I don't understand.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course, it was the federal law

9 that applied to the referendum. I told you it was the law and appointment

10 and recall of members of parliament and local government officials. It

11 was in keeping with that law that the referendum was held. But I'm

12 telling you, it was in view of that text of the question of the

13 referendum, whether to join Serbia or not. It was --

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: I understand.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember if the federal

16 state was still functional at the time, if it still operated.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: I understand that the text dictated that you go and

18 report to Serbia. I just don't understand why you would only choose

19 Serbia. If you're not able to answer, that's fine.

20 Let's move on to another small topic. You indicated that you knew

21 Mr. Martic when you were on the bench, and he used to bring complaints.

22 You worked professionally, and site inspections used to go on very well.

23 You would get into the police van because you preferred not to drive your

24 own car. You remember that testimony?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, I remember that.

Page 8555

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did you ever attend a site inspection with Mr.

2 Martic?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: You said that you were a judge from 1975 to 1983.

5 Do you remember ever interacting with Mr. -- let me finish. Do you

6 remember ever interacting with Mr. Martic in his capacity as a member of

7 the police in that period?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. Not directly. I only dealt

9 with the criminal charges filed by him. I did not need to summon him

10 directly, because occasionally I did see the filing officers, but not him.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: In that period, 1975 to 1983, he was in the police

12 force?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: You testified also about the voting where people

15 from Zadar came who were not entitled to vote because they did not belong

16 to the municipality of Knin, and you allowed them to vote nonetheless. Do

17 you remember that?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: And you excluded their votes later when you

20 calculated the votes, the results.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, because they were not on the

22 electoral lists. It's just that they came and once they were on the

23 spot --

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, I guess you had ballot papers.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, for those people, no. We did

Page 8556

1 not have ballot papers. They were on that -- the names were circled on

2 that list.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. I'm asking about

4 the voting. People who voted, voted on the ballot list, didn't they? On

5 the ballot paper?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, yes, yes.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Everybody would get a ballot paper, including these

8 people, wouldn't they?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. When somebody would come to the

10 polling place, they had to produce their ID to establish their identity.

11 Then we would find that person on the list, and only after that we would

12 issue them with a ballot paper, and establish that the person has voted.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: And if you then discovered that this person is not

14 on the voting list, what did you give this person to vote on? You don't

15 give them the ballot paper? What do you give them?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No, we did not give them the

17 voting papers, slips.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: What did you give them?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Their names would just be encircled

20 on this one separate list. Allow me, Your Honour. We would have had a

21 major problem at the polling station, had we told those people that they

22 are unable to vote. So we had these posters at each polling station.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: I understand that. And that's why it is because of

24 this major problem that you wanted to avoid that I want to understand.

25 I'm asking you, if I came there and I wasn't on your list of voters, what

Page 8557

1 did you give me? You have just given the man in front of me a ballot

2 paper, because he's local. What would you give me? What would you give

3 me to vote on?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You would just be recorded on the

5 voters' list, and of course the option was either "for" or "against" and

6 seeing that we could not give them the actual voting slips, because there

7 was a specific number printed for the people with a place of residence, so

8 that we didn't have any to give them, they were just reflected on the list

9 without having been given any such slips.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Ma'am, ma'am, I don't understand you. Surely -- I

11 see other people being given a ballot paper. I have come to vote. You

12 allow me to vote because you want to avoid problems. And I demand a

13 ballot paper. You've got to give me a ballot paper or a voting paper,

14 sorry, whatever you call it. I don't understand when you say you circled

15 my name. Where do you circle my name? Because I don't want my name

16 circled, I want a piece of paper to make my cross, otherwise I'm going to

17 leave here, having not voted, having not made my cross and I will cause a

18 problem that you wanted to avoid. But you avoided the problem by allowing

19 me to vote. How did I vote?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course, under the law the federal

21 law, the elections, the right to vote was --

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm going to stop you. I'm going to stop you --

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- predicated also on the place of

24 residence.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm going to stop you there. I'm not asking you

Page 8558

1 about the law. I am asking you what actually happened in the voting

2 booth. What happened in the voting booth? Here am I, from Zadar. I'm

3 following somebody from Knin. I can see he's being given a voting paper.

4 I also want a voting paper. What did you give me?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Once that person produces his

6 personal identity card --

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Answer me. What did you give me?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nothing. We gave them nothing. We

9 just made this list in situ. We compiled the list in situ, having seen on

10 the basis of his identity card that he doesn't have the proper place of

11 residence to be entitled to vote.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: And they were happy that they had voted and

13 therefore there was no trouble?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were aware of the fact that

15 they were not entitled to vote. Some of them required explanations but

16 most of them knew this.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm asking you: Were they happy that they had

18 voted and they went away peacefully? You successfully avoided the problem

19 that you were avoiding when you just don't give them an option to vote?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, there were no incidents.

21 There was not a single incident and I can --

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: The question is, were they happy that they had

23 voted?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, in some way they were. In a

25 way their will would be communicated, and it was communicated in a way,

Page 8559

1 but this was not proper election procedure, it being unlawful for them to

2 vote.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Anybody knows, anybody knows that when you vote you

4 vote on a ballot paper, and if it's not on the ballot paper the vote is

5 spoiled. We know that, don't we? We all know that. That's a spoiled

6 paper.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sure. So how can they be happy that they voted?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't explain whether they were

10 happy. It is a fact that they didn't get those voting slips, because they

11 were not on the electoral rolls, because they did not have a place of

12 residence that would entitle them to that, which was established having

13 consulted their identity cards. So we told them, if you want to be on the

14 voting list, we can put you on it. You can express your will, but that

15 will not be of bearing on the final results and outcome of the referendum.

16 We told them that, and we didn't encounter any problems. This was

17 just something that we dealt with in our stride. We hadn't been aware

18 that this would in fact occur.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, ma'am. And if you just said

20 to them, sorry ladies and gentlemen, you may not vote because you do not

21 belong to Knin, you would have had problems on your hands, you said.

22 You're sure about this?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sure of it, because these people

24 had covered some 50, 60 or 70 kilometres to come and they would say, we

25 came here to express our wills. And when we explained to them that we

Page 8560

1 couldn't allow them to vote because it was contrary to the law and we

2 wanted a referendum that would be valid according to the law, they

3 acquiesced, because they understood what our problem was. But still they

4 wanted to be seen as having come to express the will of their people. And

5 they knew that we had made a separate list and they saw this as showing

6 that they had exerted this effort to also communicate their will and

7 express their will and they accepted that.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: I thank you, ma'am. You have tried to answer me as

9 best as we can. We can't take the point much further. Thank you. That

10 is the end of my questions. Mr. Milovancevic? Any questions arising

11 from --

12 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I have

13 no further questions.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Whiting?

15 Further cross-examination by Mr. Whiting:

16 MR. WHITING: Just one or two, please, Your Honour.

17 Q. Madam, isn't it true that as of -- and this is with respect to the

18 questions about which laws applied in the SAO Krajina. Isn't it true that

19 as of the 28th of February, 1991, the laws of the Republic of Croatia did

20 not apply in the SAO Krajina if they conflicted in any way with the laws

21 of the SAO Krajina, isn't that true?

22 A. Well frankly speaking, I cannot give you a decided answer as to

23 whether there were any laws that were not applied. Over 15 years have

24 passed. I really cannot give you a definite answer at this point.

25 Q. Well let me ask you --

Page 8561

1 A. I'm not sure.

2 Q. Let me put a different, more specific point to you. And if we

3 could actually look at Exhibit 144 in evidence, please.

4 And I would draw your attention to the Article 2 of this decision

5 of the 1st of April, 1991.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: We need to get the English version on our screen.

7 Thank you very much.


9 Q. In Article 2 in the second paragraph it says: "In accordance with

10 the preceding paragraph of this article as of the adoption of this

11 decision, the constitution of the Republic of Serbia is valid within the

12 territory of the SAO Krajina, and the laws of the Republic of Serbia are

13 applied, as is the constitutional legal system of the Socialist Federal

14 Republic of Yugoslavia."

15 So the answer is, isn't it, that as of the 1st of April, 1991, the

16 constitution of Serbia, the laws of Serbia, and the laws of the Federal

17 Republic, the SFRY, applied in the SAO Krajina. Isn't that right?

18 A. It is probably so, according to this decision in which I didn't

19 participate.

20 Q. Well, madam --

21 A. -- I probably have seen it but --

22 Q. Well, madam. Why is it probably so? It is so, isn't it? This

23 decision clearly states it.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And one final question. The reason you took the referendum to

Page 8562

1 Serbia and not to the SFRY is because you, meaning the SAO Krajina, wanted

2 to join with Serbia, right?

3 A. Well, if you're asking me personally, according to what I know, it

4 was always my wish to remain in Yugoslavia and I believe that that wish

5 was shared by the entirety of the Serbian people, to remain in Yugoslavia,

6 and if that should prove to be possible -- impossible, if that should

7 prove to be impossible, then possibly, as part of some other countries

8 that would remain. And I still maintain that position. That was a state

9 in which I and my entire community, irrespective of their nationalities,

10 ethnicities, really lived good lives.

11 Q. But madam, the fact is that although you say now that the entirety

12 of the Serbian people wanted to remain in Yugoslavia, in May of 1991, you

13 took that referendum to Serbia and not to the SFRY government. Isn't that

14 true?

15 A. Yes, that is true.

16 MR. WHITING: Thank you. Thank you.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, we took it to the Assembly of

18 Serbia, which did not accept it.

19 MR. WHITING: Thank you, madam. I have no further questions.

20 Thank you, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Just a question, Mr. Whiting. Was there a special

22 reason for you to start this questions now, referring to the 28th of

23 February? Or was this a mistake?

24 MR. WHITING: No, it was not a mistake. It is a reference to a

25 document that I have, but it's not in evidence. So I decided simply to

Page 8563

1 expedite and not to pursue it and to focus on this document.

2 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you very much.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mrs. Vujanic, this brings us to the end of your

4 testimony. The Chamber would like to take this time to thank you very

5 much for coming to testify. We understand you must have your own

6 engagements and your own priorities, and we appreciate the fact that you

7 could take time off your busy schedule to come and testify. Thank you

8 very much for coming, and you are now excused. You may stand down.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Perhaps

10 there have been some problems because ours is a different criminal

11 procedure compared to this one. Perhaps I amplified on some matters,

12 actually answering more than you asked me.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Once you have been excused,

14 you are not allowed to speak in this. Thank you very much. Thank you

15 very much. We appreciate you coming.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 [The witness withdrew]

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic.

19 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the next witness

20 will be questioned by Mr. Perovic.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Perovic.

22 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I have Milan

23 Dragisic, our next witness, ushered in.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

25 [The witness entered court]

Page 8564

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the witness please make the declaration.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

3 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Dragisic. You may take

5 your seat.


7 [Witness answered through interpreter]

8 Examination by Mr. Perovic.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Perovic.

10 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Good

11 evening, Mr. Dragisic.

12 A. Good evening.

13 Q. In keeping with the Rules that prevail here, I will now proceed

14 with your examination-in-chief. But before we begin, I must ask you to

15 answer my questions which I will make brief and concise, in a similarly

16 brief and concise way, also to make a very short pause before you start

17 answering a question, to let the interpreters do their job properly.

18 Did you understand me?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. If my learned friend from the Prosecution has no objection, I

21 would like to lead the witness through his personal history, just to save

22 time.

23 Is it true, Mr. Black, who is going to cross examine?

24 MR. BLACK: Yes, it is, and I have no objection to leading through

25 the non-controversial matters.

Page 8565

1 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Your name is Milan Dragisic, isn't it?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You were born in 1949 in a village called Pribudic?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Gracac municipality?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. That's where you completed primary school in 1964?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. After that, the high school in Knin in 1968.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. The same year, you received the call up to do your military

13 service and you were sent to the reserve officer's school in Bilice?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Infantry?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. As I read your CV, you do not have to answer "yes", but I will

18 give you a chance at the end to make the necessary corrections, if any.

19 So you completed your military service in 1969 in the rank of

20 junior lieutenant?

21 A. Second Lieutenant.

22 Q. Until 1974 you worked in Hydro Hidrotechnica enterprise?

23 A. In fact I worked there only in 1971 and 1972 and after that I

24 enrolled in a school for applied -- applied computer science.

25 Q. And you completed it?

Page 8566

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. After that, you went back to Knin and found a job as a teacher of

3 civilian defence. You stayed in that job until 1977, the 1st of April.

4 And on the 1st of April 1977, you found another job in the Territorial

5 Defence of Knin as chief of operations. In the meantime, you read

6 political science in Zagreb and graduated from the Zagreb University, and

7 in 1986 you became Chief of Staff of the Territorial Defence of Knin.

8 You remained there until the 25th of July, 1990 when the Assembly,

9 the Municipal Assembly of Knin elected you to be the commander of the TO

10 staff of Knin. And in summer 1991 you were appointed acting Chief of

11 Staff of the Territorial Defence of Krajina.

12 From September 1991 until May 1992, you were away on sick leave

13 and treatment --

14 MR. BLACK: Actually, if I could object. I'm sorry, I didn't

15 object to --

16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

17 MR. BLACK: -- personal background details but I think now, when

18 we we get into the time frame that's an issue in the case, I think it

19 should be done in the ordinary way.

20 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation] I accept that. I haven't yet

21 finished with the CV, but I do accept that this might be leading.

22 Q. So from the 1st of June, 1992, you started teaching at the school

23 for internal affairs in Golubici at a course for Krajina's policemen. In

24 the course of 1993, you were chief at that school until the time when it

25 was transferred to Slovenia, to the town of Erdut.

Page 8567

1 After the school moved, you went to the Ministry of the Interior

2 to work in the state security service as an analyst until the fall of the

3 Republic of Serbian Krajina in 1995.

4 From 1997 until 2004, you worked in the utility's enterprise in

5 Belgrade and you are currently unemployed. Is this personal information

6 correct or do you want to add anything?

7 A. No corrections, and nothing to add.

8 Q. In 1986, as we can read in your CV, you were appointed Chief of

9 Staff of the Territorial Defence of Knin and you remained there until the

10 25th of July, 1990.

11 Could you please tell me, to whom was the TO staff of Knin

12 subordinated to?

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Stop. There's something that confuses me slightly,

14 Mr. Perovic. On page 84, line 11, you said that the witness was

15 elected -- was appointed, at line 12, was appointed acting Chief of Staff

16 of the TO in Krajina. Now you say in 1986 he was appointed Chief of Staff

17 in Knin now, not in Krajina. Is that the difference?

18 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. That is one difference. But

19 there is also a difference in chronology. I'm talking about the period

20 between 1986 and 1990 when the witness occupied the post of Chief of Staff

21 of the Territorial Defence of Knin. That is the period I'm referring to

22 now. From 1986 until 1990, he was chief of the staff of the TO Knin.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay, thank you very much.

24 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: I'm sorry, Mr. Perovic. Could you please

25 clarify, because I had thought that he was appointed acting Chief of Staff

Page 8568

1 of the TD of the Krajina in the summer of 1991. Is it the TO or the TD?

2 It's the same thing?

3 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation] I shall just read for your benefit

4 two sentences which refer to this part of the CV of the witness. In 1986,

5 he became the Chief of Staff of the Territorial Defence of Knin, and

6 remained on that post until the 25th of July, 1990. At that time the

7 Assembly of the municipality of Knin elected him to the post of commander

8 of the staff of the Territorial Defence of Knin. So the name has

9 changed. The designation no longer is the chief but the commander of the

10 staff.

11 And in the summer of 1991 he became the acting Chief of Staff of

12 the Territorial Defence of the Krajina. Those are the differences.

13 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Thank you very much.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Perovic. We may not

15 remember all of that detail a little later.

16 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation] And thank you, Your Honours. Thank

17 you, Your Honours.

18 JUDGE HOEPFEL: I hope not to confuse you now again. When the

19 witness was elected commander of TO in -- instead of the TO of the

20 Krajina. According to what do you want to explain to us.

21 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation] There is a misunderstanding which is

22 obvious.

23 On the 25th of July, 1990, by decision of the Municipal Assembly

24 of Knin, he was elected to the post of commander of staff of the

25 Territorial Defence of Knin. And the next year, in the summer of 1991, he

Page 8569

1 was appointed acting Chief of Staff of the Territorial Defence of the

2 Krajina. Not of Knin, but of the entire Krajina. That is it.

3 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Is that correct, Witness? Thank you.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is.

5 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. However, Mr. Dragisic, now we are talking about the period between

7 1986 and 1990 when you were the Chief of Staff of the Territorial Defence

8 of Knin. So we are discussing that period now.

9 At that time, to whom was the chief of the Territorial Defence of

10 Knin subordinated?

11 A. The staff of the TO of the Knin municipality was subordinated to

12 the staff of the communities of the municipality -- of the community of

13 municipalities of Split and that staff, in turn, was subordinated to the

14 staff of the Territorial Defence of Croatia. And the republican staff was

15 subordinated to the General Staff of the JNA, which is to say, to the

16 armed forces of Yugoslavia.

17 Q. Thank you. Was such a structure, such an organisation in

18 accordance with the federal and republican regulations on national

19 defence?

20 A. The laws, both the federal and the republican, that is to say, the

21 law of the Croatian -- the Croatian law on national defence regulated in

22 that manner the question of the subordination of staffs and command, so

23 that there was unity of command, namely singleness of command, being the

24 venue of that being the General Staff of the JNA.

25 Q. Thank you. What is under the constitution and the law on national

Page 8570

1 defence? When I say "constitution", I mean the constitution of

2 Yugoslavia -- what were units of the Territorial Defence?

3 A. Units of the Territorial Defence were a component of the armed

4 forces of Yugoslavia.

5 Q. When you say a component, I suppose there is another component.

6 A. The other component was the Yugoslav People's Army, namely the

7 first component was the Yugoslav People's Army and the second component

8 was the Territorial Defence.

9 Q. Thank you. So the Yugoslav People's Army under the constitution

10 and under the law on national defence was constituted of the Yugoslav

11 People's Army and the units of the Territorial Defence. Is that right?

12 A. That is right.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Will the witness and counsel please not overlap.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you hear that, Mr. Perovic? Stop in between.

15 The interpreters are struggling to keep pace because you overlap with the

16 witness.

17 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Can you clarify, Mr. Perovic, what the expression

18 national defence, exactly means. Law on national defence it says, and

19 this is what the witness also understood, but this just is terminology.

20 What does it mean? National defence?

21 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Did you understand the question, Mr. Dragisic?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Can you explain to us what the law on national defence regulated?

25 A. There was a federal as well as a republican law on national

Page 8571

1 defence, and the republican one was in accordance with the federal one.

2 It dealt with all matters, all components of the defence comprising the

3 Yugoslav People's Army, the Territorial Defence, the civil defence as well

4 as all matters pertaining to the defence of Yugoslavia.

5 Q. Thank you. Is this a satisfactory answer, Your Honour?


7 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. What was the basic task of Territorial Defence units?

9 A. The basic task of Territorial Defence units was primarily control

10 of territory, securing of important facilities, and combat against

11 terrorist or sabotage forces.

12 Q. Thank you. What was the national composition of these units?

13 A. The national composition of Territorial Defence units corresponded

14 to the national composition of the population on a given municipality

15 territory or republican territory. For instance, in the municipality of

16 Knin, 92 per cent of them were Serbs, and the -- approximately, that is

17 the number of Serbs in Territorial Defence units.

18 However, there was some villages in which the population was 100

19 per cent Croatian, and in such villages the Territorial Defence was 100

20 per cent Croatian.

21 Q. Thank you. So the national parity principle was applied?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Was this national parity principle also applied to the commands of

24 the staffs and of the Territorial Defence units?

25 A. The principle was as follows: In the units, if the commander was

Page 8572

1 a Serb, the deputy commander would be a Croat. And the permanent

2 composition of the staff employed both Croats and Serbs.

3 Q. Thank you. Was -- did the Territorial Defence have its own

4 weaponry?

5 A. The Territorial Defence had its own armourments.

6 Q. Thank you. Where were these weapons?

7 A. Wherever it was possible, they were in the depots of the Yugoslav

8 People's Army, in order for the weapons to be secure.

9 Q. Thank you. So weapons -- the weapons and weaponry of the

10 Territorial Defence of Knin to be very concrete, where were those?

11 A. They were in the Krka depot of the JNA and the quartermaster

12 supplies, I mean the blankets and the uniforms, they were in a depot in a

13 store house on Petra Drapsina street.

14 Q. Could the weapons be taken out from the depots and what was the

15 procedure?

16 A. The weapons could not be taken out from the depots without

17 observers of a specific procedure.

18 Q. Who was the one who decided on the possible issuance of weapons

19 from the depots?

20 A. The staff of the Territorial Defence would submit a request to the

21 staff of the community of municipalities of Split, which would refer the

22 same to the command of the JNA unit, and it would then allow the weapons

23 to be taken out from the depots.

24 Q. Thank you. In the period under review, so we're talking about

25 1986 to 1990, at the helm of the Territorial Defence of the community of

Page 8573

1 municipalities of Split, was who, do you remember?

2 A. It was Colonel Ante Marinov, an officer of the JNA?

3 Q. What was he by nationality?

4 A. He was a Croat.

5 Q. Tell me, Witness, what were the arms of the Territorial Defence

6 like? What was -- what were they? What weapons are we talking about?

7 A. These were primarily older pieces of weaponry that the JNA had

8 actually decommissioned when it was being modernised, and these were M48

9 rifles. And in the period that we are talking about, they also had

10 automatic rifles, semi-automatic rifles. They had hand throws, launchers

11 and a smaller number of mortars. Sixty and 82 millimeter mortars.

12 Q. Thank you. To the extent that I am knowledgeable about weapons,

13 are these all infantry weapons?

14 A. Yes, these were all infantry weapons.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry. Can I --

16 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Thank you. Could you just briefly describe for us the command

18 structure of the Territorial Defence until the war, that is from 1986 to

19 1990. What was the command structure like at that time? Can you explain

20 more specifically?

21 A. The highest organ in the republic was the republican staff of

22 Territorial Defence, and at its helm was General Spegelj.

23 Q. Just a minute. You are speaking about the Territorial Defence of

24 Croatia?

25 A. Yes.

Page 8574

1 Q. Where was the seat of the Territorial Defence of Croatia?

2 A. It was in Zagreb.

3 Q. To whom was answerable to staff of the Territorial Defence of

4 Croatia under the law?

5 A. Under the law it was answerable to the General Staff of the JNA

6 and to the Presidency of the SFRY.

7 Q. You also mentioned the name of the commander of the Territorial

8 Defence of Croatia in the period under review. Can you repeat it.

9 A. It was general Martin Spegelj and after him it was General

10 Novoselic. The Chief of Staff was General Vracarevic. He was a Serb and

11 the two commanders were Croats.

12 Q. Thank you. Under the staff of the Territorial Defence of the

13 Republic of Croatia, what was the structure under it?

14 A. After that, we had each community of municipalities had its own

15 staff of communities of municipalities and the second in command, as far

16 as we were concerned, was the staff of the community of municipalities of

17 Split.

18 Q. And then following that, the Municipal Staff, the Municipal Staff

19 in Knin?

20 A. Yes, that's right.

21 Q. Who financed the financial municipal Territorial Defence Staffs?

22 A. According to the law on All Peoples Defence, the municipal

23 Territorial Defence Staffs were funded from the budget of the municipality

24 in question and the allocation was, if I remember correctly, 0.40 per cent

25 of the revenues of the budget.

Page 8575

1 Q. And just another question for today, because we are about to wrap

2 up for today. According to the command chain, the command line, the

3 Territorial Defence Staff of Knin was subordinated to whom?

4 A. It was subordinated to the staff of the community of

5 municipalities of Split at whose helm was Colonel Marinov.

6 Q. Thank you. I believe that we should continue in the morning,

7 because Your Honours, I suppose that we have -- we can call it a day at

8 this point.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are very correct, Mr. Perovic. Let's call it a

10 day and come back at 9 o'clock tomorrow morning. Court adjourned.

11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m.,

12 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 19th day of

13 September, 2006 at 9.00 a.m.