Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 518

 1                           Tuesday, 26 August 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 8.52 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Alarid, I understand there's a matter you

 6     wish to raise.

 7             MR. ALARID:  Good morning, Your Honour.  Yes.  We filed late last

 8     night, about 11.30, a request to delay the motion -- or the testimony of

 9     VG-11 based on the late disclosure by the Prosecution.  On Sunday evening

10     at 6.40 or so we received additional disclosures in our box of which we

11     picked up yesterday morning but due to of course the court calendar we

12     didn't really get to look at them until yesterday evening.  We printed

13     the disclosures, and these are related to VG-11, Your Honour, that is set

14     to -- actually was set to start yesterday, of course, but is starting

15     today.

16             We printed these and there's approximately 200 pages of

17     disclosures all in Serbian, and in there we were able to highlight

18     VG-11's name 60 or so times.

19             One of the issues of which will be relevant for today's

20     testimony, and of course Mr. Rasic wasn't able to really read all of this

21     and translate it and get into the meat and bones of it I would like

22     Mr. Lukic to have an opportunity to read this but one important I think

23     exculpatory issue which is also would be considered a Rule 68 matter is

24     simply that according to this document in one section VG-11 simply spoke

25     to another named witness or someone he'd spoken to and actually put the

Page 519

 1     bus incident or convoy which will be the lion's share of VG-11's

 2     testimony on June 17th which would be, you know in comport with our

 3     theory of the case.

 4             So given the fact I think we do need to go through this a little

 5     bit better before we cross-examine VG-11.  I know the Prosecution's going

 6     to say let's do --

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the counsel please slow down for the

 8     purposes of interpretation, thank you.

 9             MR. ALARID:  Excuse me, a significant amount of preparation

10     involved for this specific witness and considering that this really does

11     go to the heart and bones about what happened around June 14th which of

12     course is the Pioneer Street fire; this is an important witness.

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  May I ask the Prosecutor to explain what

14     has happened.

15             MS. SARTORIO:  Yes, Your Honour.  Your Honours know that

16     disclosure is constantly ongoing and I issue searches are being conducted

17     on the system-wide searches on witnesses and as documents are discovered

18     they are disclosed.  Now, those documents were reviewed, the initially

19     documents were reviewed by me, and the Serbian documents were reviewed by

20     translators, and there was no significant Rule 68 material in that at all

21     and, in fact, I would guess if that's the only incident the witness once

22     said to someone else that it happened on another day.  I would venture to

23     say that that is all that might be in those documents.  We -- we have a

24     policy of broad disclosure.  Those documents are witness statements or

25     reports that were taken over the years that mention this witness's name,

Page 520

 1     just mention his name.  Any document that mentions his name is disclosed.

 2     It doesn't necessarily mean that it has any significance, any relevance,

 3     or any exculpatory information in the documents, and I would suggest that

 4     we go ahead with his testimony and the cross that they prepared, and if

 5     he has to come back for a limited cross in the future after they've

 6     reviewed the documents, then we will bring him back, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  You say disclosure is an ongoing process, but we

 8     do have rules that we apply.

 9             MS. SARTORIO:  I understand, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  So when was this actually discovered --

11             MS. SARTORIO:  Last --

12             JUDGE ROBINSON: -- by you.

13             MS. SARTORIO:  The end of last week when it was disclosed.

14     Document reviews are ongoing on a daily basis.  As you know, there are

15     several trials going on.  ISU searches are conducted as quickly as the

16     people can do them, and the language assistants are spread thin, and

17     everybody is reviewing documents just as fast as they can.

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Do you have another witness at hand?

19             MS. SARTORIO:  He's not here.  I don't think victim witness is

20     going to bring him here until 11.00, Your Honour.  Actually, we have

21     another witness who is scheduled to go after VG-11.  He is a 92 bis, and

22     then VG-97 will be testifying.  So we have three witnesses lined up for

23     today, but Mr. -- Mr. Spahic has been here for several days and he's

24     prepared to give his testimony, and I think it's only fair to him that he

25     be allowed to come in and give his testimony, and as I said, if they find

Page 521

 1     anything in those documents that they want to ask him about, we can bring

 2     him back for limited cross-examination on those -- on those matters.

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Alarid, this is what the Chamber has

 5     decided:  The witness will testify as scheduled.  However, if there is

 6     anything in the documentation that was disclosed very late to you and you

 7     wish to cross-examine on it and you are not in a position to do so now,

 8     then the witness will be recalled for further cross-examination.  The

 9     Chamber considers this to be the best way of using the Trial Chamber's

10     time efficiently.

11             MR. ALARID:  Your Honour, only for the record we were just

12     looking at the disclosure batch on the computer, and the dates of those

13     were last modified either the 6th or the 12th of August.  So there was

14     some delay between the disclosure on Sunday on the 24th.

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Very well.  The Chamber has ruled.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Ms. Sartorio, I'd like to say on behalf of the

18     Chamber that while I appreciate that disclosure is an ongoing process,

19     you also must be very careful and do everything in your power to ensure

20     that documentation is disclosed in -- within the time frame set by the

21     Trial Chamber, because if you have matters that are disclosed very late,

22     then obviously the kind of problem which has arisen now will arise, and

23     the Trial Chamber must ensure that its time is used efficiently.

24             MS. SARTORIO:  Yes, Your Honour.  I take that to heart.  I'll

25     discuss it with the team, and we'll ensure that the documents are

Page 522

 1     disclosed as early as possible.

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  Let the witness be brought in.

 3                           [The witness entered court]

 4             MS. SARTORIO:  Excuse me.  That's not the right -- that's the

 5     wrong witness.

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I'm sorry?

 7                           [The witness withdrew]

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  It's a case of mistaken identity.

 9             Ms. Sartorio.

10             MS. SARTORIO:  Yes, Your Honour.

11                           [The witness entered court]

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I notice that the time that you have allocated

13     for this witness is an hour and a half.  That's not so?

14             MS. SARTORIO:  No, Your Honour.  I think I can conduct my direct

15     within a half an hour as Your Honour instructed for 92 ter witnesses.

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  All right.  Thanks.

17             MS. SARTORIO:  Yes.

18                           WITNESS:  FERID SPAHIC

19                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Let the witness make the declaration.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I shall

22     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

23             JUDGE ROBINSON:  May begin, Ms. Sartorio.

24             MS. SARTORIO:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25                           Examination by Ms. Sartorio:

Page 523

 1        Q.   Sir, would you please state your full name for the record.

 2        A.   Ferid Spahic.

 3        Q.   And in the spring of 1992 in what municipality or village did you

 4     live?

 5        A.   I lived in the village of Smrijece where I was born.  That is in

 6     Visegrad municipality.

 7        Q.   And what is your ethnicity, sir?

 8        A.   Muslim.

 9        Q.   Now, you testified before this Tribunal in 2001 in the case of

10     Prosecutor versus Mitar Vasiljevic, did you not?

11        A.   Yes, I did.

12        Q.   Do you recall the dates of your testimony in that case?

13        A.   The 12th and 13th of September, 2001.

14        Q.   And, sir, since coming to The Hague a few days ago have you had

15     an opportunity to listen to your testimony in full in the Bosnian

16     language?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And is everything that you stated in your prior testimony

19     truthful and accurate to the best of your knowledge in regard to the

20     events that you witnessed and experienced in June of 1992?

21        A.   It is.

22        Q.   And if I were to ask you the same questions today that were put

23     to you during your testimony in 2001 about these events would your

24     answers be the same?

25        A.   Essentially they would be.  Not perhaps word for word, but

Page 524

 1     essentially, yes.

 2        Q.   In substance they would be the same.

 3        A.   Yes, in substance.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             MS. SARTORIO:  Your Honours, I would ask that the testimony be

 6     admitted in evidence, 65 ter numbers 70 and 71.

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  We admit it.

 8             MS. SARTORIO:  And also, Your Honour, there were three exhibits

 9     that went to the testimony.  I would ask that they also be admitted, or

10     would you like me to ask the witness questions?  They were discussed

11     during his testimony, and they're also on our 65 ter exhibit list, so we

12     just asked that they be admitted along with the testimony.

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

14             MS. SARTORIO:  They will be admitted.  They are 65 ter number 67,

15     68, and 69.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, witness statement will become P15;

17     65 ter 67 will become Exhibit 16; 65 ter 68 will become Exhibit P17; and

18     65 ter 69 will become Exhibit P18.

19             MS. SARTORIO:  Thank you.

20        Q.   Now, Mr. Spahic, in addition to giving testimony in the

21     Vasiljevic trial, did you also provide a statement to an ICTY

22     investigator in November of 1997?

23        A.   I did.  I gave that statement in Sarajevo.

24        Q.   And the statement was typed in English but read back it you in

25     the Bosnian language at that time, it wasn't?

Page 525

 1        A.   Yes, it was.

 2        Q.   And since coming to The Hague you've had an opportunity to review

 3     your statement in the Bosnian language; is that correct?

 4        A.   Yes, that is correct.

 5        Q.   And after reviewing your statement did you make certain

 6     corrections and addition to this 1997 statement?

 7        A.   I did make certain corrections, and they just involved some slips

 8     of the tongue or some minor technical mistakes, typos, but in substance

 9     the statement is quite good.

10        Q.   And you signed what was called an addendum to your statement

11     which contains these corrections; is that correct?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And you signed the English version of this statement after it was

14     read back to you by a translator in the Bosnian language; that is

15     correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Now, sir, is everything contained in your 1997, taking into

18     consideration the corrections that you made in the addendum, and is

19     everything in the addendum truthful and accurate to the best of your

20     knowledge in regard to the events that you witnessed and experienced in

21     1992?

22        A.   Yes, it is.  It is truthful and accurate.

23        Q.   And if I were to ask you the same questions that were put to you

24     by the investigator in 1997, would your answers be the same as those that

25     you provided and as amended in your addendum?

Page 526

 1        A.   Yes.  In substance, yes.

 2             MS. SARTORIO:  Your Honours, I ask that the witness's statement

 3     and the addendum be admitted in evidence.  We do not have 65 ter numbers

 4     for these two statements.  However, I have the ERN numbers, ERN 00548587

 5     to 8589.  That is the statement.  The addendum is 01109684 to 9694.  No,

 6     sorry.  One moment, please.

 7             I apologise, Your Honours.  Just one moment for the correct

 8     numbers.

 9             I apologise.  The addendum ERN number is 06382599 to 2602.

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, I would like to make the correction

12     regarding the first witness statement.  65 ter number 70 will become

13     Exhibit P15 and 65 ter number 71 will become Exhibit P19.  ERN number

14     00548587 will become Exhibit P20, and ERN number 063825997 to 2602 will

15     become Exhibit P21.

16             MS. SARTORIO:  Thank you.

17        Q.   Now, sir, as you've heard, your prior testimony and your

18     statement has been admitted in evidence so that the Chamber has the full

19     statement and testimony.  So therefore I'm not going to ask you questions

20     and go into any detail about the events that you experienced in June of

21     1992.  Do you understand that?

22        A.   Yes, I do.

23        Q.   I would just like to ask you a couple of questions.  Now, your

24     testimony and your statement -- in your testimony and statement you

25     testify about a convoy of buses that was organised in Visegrad to

Page 527

 1     transport people out of the area and presumably to safety; is that

 2     correct?

 3        A.   Yes.  Yes, it is.

 4        Q.   And in your statement and testimony you say that the convoy was

 5     supposed to leave Visegrad on the 14th of June.  Is that correct?

 6        A.   Yes, and it did leave Visegrad on the 14th of June.

 7        Q.   Okay.  And on the 14th of June, were you on a bus that was with

 8     other buses at the Visegrad Hotel?

 9        A.   Yes, I was on one of the several buses that were in this column.

10        Q.   And can you tell me how many buses and/or vehicles there were

11     that set out in the convoy?

12        A.   I personally did not count the vehicles to establish their actual

13     number, but I do know that there were about five or six buses and two

14     trucks, two lorries with tarpaulins.

15        Q.   And at some point these buses left of the Visegrad Hotel and

16     started out on a route to where?

17        A.   They set off on a road that had not been agreed upon.  Actually,

18     while we were still there at the square, prior to our very departure,

19     prior to the convoy's very departure, we were offered three routes for

20     the convoy to take.  One of them was to Skopje in Macedonia.  Another one

21     was to Olovo, and yet a third one was to Kladinja [phoen].  However, the

22     fact is that Skopje was just a decoy to lure us, to get us onto that

23     convoy.  In fact, while we were still at the square, in the buses Ljupko

24     Tasic demanded that we make up lists of people on the buses and to

25     indicate the direction which we wanted to take, and I did so in respect

Page 528

 1     of the bus that I was on, and I wrote on the top of that list that the

 2     desired direction was Skopje.

 3        Q.   Thank you, sir.  But my question to you is at some point on the

 4     14th of June did the buses leave the Visegrad Hotel, and the bus that you

 5     were on, in which direction did the bus travel?

 6        A.   We first went to the bus station in Visegrad for the bus to be

 7     refuelled, and then we went back and via the Novi Most, or the New Bridge

 8     in Visegrad, we took the direction of Smrijece.  That is the byroad, the

 9     Visegrad-Rogatica byroad.

10        Q.   And can you tell us approximately what time on the 14th of June

11     your bus left Visegrad?

12        A.   Well, I'm not quite sure of the exact time, but I think it was

13     between 9.00 and 11.00 that we actually left town.

14        Q.   Now, sir, I want to ask you a question.  When you testified in

15     2001, this was nine years after the events that you lived through in

16     1992; is that correct?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   How was it that you were able to remember the date of 14 June as

19     the bus leaving -- as the buses leaving Visegrad?

20        A.   Well, I was able to do that because all those dates which are

21     associated with our hapless fate, those dates are etched in my mind.  So

22     it is not at all hard for me to recall those dates.  I would wish it on

23     no one to experience what I had gone through, so that these dates are

24     eternally etched in my mind.

25        Q.   Now, the actual -- the actual execution that you testified to and

Page 529

 1     is talked about in your statement, is that happened on the 15th of June;

 2     right?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And has the 15th of June had any significance in your life since

 5     this event?

 6        A.   Unfortunately, it does have.  Nothing good is associated with

 7     that date except the fact that I'm still alive.  Everything else is bad.

 8        Q.   What is your date of -- what is your birthday?

 9        A.   The 8th of May, 1963.

10        Q.   Do you celebrate a second birthday?

11        A.   I certainly do.

12        Q.   And what date is that second birthday?

13        A.   The 15th of June.

14        Q.   And why do you celebrate your birthday on the 15th of June?

15        A.   The 15th of June, we were taken to a spot called Paklanik

16     [phoen], that is I, myself and some 50 of my neighbours and friends,

17     family members, with our hands on our backs, and there all these people

18     were executed, and I was the only one who fortunately managed to escape.

19        Q.   So what do you consider the 15th of June to be?

20        A.   Well, what can I say?  I do not celebrate it as one would

21     celebrate one's birthday, you know, but I do commemorate it in a special

22     way because no 15th of June can pass without my eliciting the scenes of

23     the 15th of June in 1992.  It's just impossible.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Now I would like to move on to -- you stated in your

25     testimony that a person walked on the convoy bus before it left Visegrad

Page 530

 1     whom you later learned was Milan Lukic.  Is that what you said?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Can you tell us how you learned the identity of this person?

 4        A.   At that particular moment we were already ready to depart, the

 5     convoy was, when at a certain point this person boarded our bus who I had

 6     not seen before, and that person stood just next to my seat.  I looked up

 7     and then I look at him for three or four seconds, and I again looked in

 8     front of me.  He just called out the name of Esad Kustura, a schoolmate

 9     of his.  He actually said schoolmate.  I don't know whether they were

10     actually schoolmates, but he said, "Schoolmate, come out."  When Esad was

11     passing by my seat I told him to run.  However, he reached a last step of

12     the bus while outside there broke out a quarrel between Ljupko Tasic and

13     Milan Lukic.  Actually, that man who had been on the bus but at that time

14     I didn't know it was Milan Lukic.

15             After a short talk and a short quarrel, Ljupko said Esad to go

16     back on the bus.  Esad, while passing by me said, "Ljupko saved me skin."

17             Later after we had left that spot after we set off in the

18     direction of Orlovo I inquired who that person who boarded the bus was,

19     and Esad told me that it was Milan Lukic.

20        Q.   You did not know Milan Lukic before this time, did you?

21        A.   No, no.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             MS. SARTORIO:  Now I would like to go into the last area of

24     examination and it involves a map, Your Honours.  The map is in e-court.

25     However, I have hard copies because I think it's more significant to see,

Page 531

 1     and I prefer that we look at the hard copies if we may.

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Very well.

 3             MS. SARTORIO:  May I have -- may have just one moment, Your

 4     Honours?

 5                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 6             MS. SARTORIO:  Thank you.

 7        Q.   Sir -- can we put it --

 8             MS. SARTORIO:  Can this be shown on the ELMO so the Judges can

 9     see where -- thank you.  I think that's fine.

10        Q.   Sir, could you mark on this map where the town or the

11     municipality of Visegrad is with the -- with the Magic Marker that I gave

12     you.

13        A.   Yes, I do.

14        Q.   Could you circle it.

15        A.   [Marks]

16        Q.   And put a V by it for Visegrad.

17        A.   [Marks]

18        Q.   Sir, can you recall and if so can you draw the route that the

19     convoy took on the 14th of June?

20        A.   Yes.  The convoy set off from the square in Visegrad.  It passed

21     the Novi Most across the Drina River and continued its journey on the

22     asphalt road towards Rogatica by taking the byroad, detour which goes via

23     Smrijece, and the Gornja and Donja Lijeska, and via Gornja and

24     Donja Lijeska, Kopito, Pesurici, up to a place called Seljane which is in

25     the vicinity of Rogatica.

Page 532

 1        Q.   Thank you, from that point on, you travelled to another place and

 2     then you went back.  Can you just tell us briefly from there where you

 3     went and where the execution took place?

 4        A.   We set out from Seljane taking the macadam road through Zakoma

 5     and Sakovici [phoen] and we reached the municipality of Sokolac.  Then we

 6     went on via Knedjina [phoen] to Isarica Brdo and this already is in, I

 7     believe, Orlovo municipality.  There, unfortunately, and I believe that

 8     there was a truck full of soldier who followed this convoy from Sokolac,

 9     so at the meadows they just surrounded the convoy so they said the

10     elderly women and children could leave the convoy while all the rest go

11     to be exchanged.

12        Q.   Okay.  Now, at some point on this route did you spend the night,

13     the evening of the 14th in the buses?

14        A.   Yes.  We were sent back -- actual -- we were taken back from

15     Isarica Brdo to Sokolac.  There we were all crammed in just one bus, and

16     there outside the hotel Romanija the police station in Sokolac we spent

17     the night in the bus with guards watching us.

18        Q.   Is that place on this map where you spent the evening on the bus?

19        A.   No, it is not.  No.  I would need another map for that.

20        Q.   Another map going in the same direction as you -- as the convoy

21     was moving?  It's off the map?

22        A.   Yes, it's on the map.  This is just Visegrad-Rogatica direction.

23     I need Rogatica-Sokolac one and a map also showing Orlovo, if possible.

24        Q.   Now, could you point out on this map where Kopito is, and please

25     circle and put a K next to it if you find it.

Page 533

 1        A.   [Marks]

 2        Q.   Now, is Kopito a town or a village or a place?  Could you

 3     describe it for us?

 4        A.   I actually couldn't see very well at that particular time, but it

 5     passed by that road before, and I was familiar.  It is just a few houses

 6     scattered by the road so it is not actually a proper village.  It is just

 7     a couple of houses, perhaps a hamlet, two or three families.

 8        Q.   Now, between Visegrad and Kopito were there any barriers or

 9     roadblocks to prevent you from travel on the road?

10        A.   Not in that section, but later on, somewhere I'm not quite sure,

11     but before Seljani.  Possibly at person Rijici, at this spot right here

12     there was some sort of barricade blocking the road.  I know we were held

13     there for a couple of minutes.  There were some troops there, some

14     soldiers and later after we had passed I saw that it had been only a

15     simple log on the road and who had put it there and why I have no idea.

16        Q.   But it didn't prevent the convoy from continuing on, did it, this

17     log?

18        A.   No, it did not.

19        Q.   I note that on the map you marked this place where the log was as

20     P; is that correct?

21        A.   I suppose that it was at Pesurici, so I put P as the initial of

22     the toponym.

23        Q.   Now, sir on the 14th of June of 1992, if you were to drive from

24     Kopito to Visegrad would you take that exact same route that your convoy

25     took?

Page 534

 1        A.   Yes.  That is the only road, in fact.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             MS. SARTORIO:  I have no further questions, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you.

 5             MS. SARTORIO:  I'm sorry, may I move that the map be admitted in

 6     evidence.  I'm sorry.

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  It's admitted.

 8             MS. SARTORIO:  Thank you.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P22, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Alarid.  Mr. Alarid, you're up next, as they

11     say.

12             MR. ALARID:  I think I'm up next usually, but thank you, Judge.

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the Defence counsel, please.

14                           Cross-examination by Mr. Alarid:

15        Q.   Good morning, VG-11.

16        A.   Good morning.

17        Q.   You indicated in any of your testimonies that you only saw Mr. --

18     who you understand to be Mr. Milan Lukic one time?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And this was related and only happened in the square of Visegrad?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Now, the Prosecution spoke to you about your statement of -- I

23     best guess it would be 1997; correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And your testimony in Vasiljevic trial; correct?

Page 535

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Did you also read your statements of September 11th, 1992?

 3        A.   I looked at the statement, but those were not my words.  The

 4     substance is the same, and I even believe that the signature on those

 5     documents is not mine.  And even factually they maiden name of my mother

 6     is not Omerovic, it is Drino.  Only a short time had elapsed since the

 7     events and my statements, so I would ask you if you want to question me

 8     to base your questions on my statement that I gave to the investigators

 9     from The Hague in Sarajevo.

10        Q.   Why would you prefer that?

11        A.   The statements from 1992 contain the substance, but the substance

12     is too disorderly.  Somebody retold my story and it really isn't -- it

13     isn't the right thing.  It didn't as it should be.

14        Q.   And you also gave a statement 5 December 1992; correct?

15        A.   Could you give me the place where I gave that statement?

16             MR. ALARID:  Just a moment, Your Honour.  I apologise.

17        Q.   In Sarajevo.

18        A.   On the 5th of December, 1992, in Sarajevo.

19        Q.   Yes, sir.

20        A.   On the 5th of December, 1992, I was not in Sarajevo, sir.  I was

21     in Gorazde.

22             MR. ALARID:  Your Honour, we'd like ERN number 00614799 to

23     00614808 to be put on, which has been uploaded into e-court as 1D00-0161.

24     That's the B/C/S version.  And the English version has been uploaded as

25     1D00-0152.

Page 536

 1        A.   Sir, this statement was not made in Sarajevo.  It was forwarded

 2     to in Sarajevo in some way but I made it at Donji Most in the area of

 3     Visoko.

 4        Q.   So you did make a statement 5 December 1992?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   I don't remember if it was the 5th of December, but if it's dated

 7     December 5 then this probably is true, but it was made at Donji Most,

 8     which is close to Visoko.  And under what pretense did you give the

 9     statement on 5 December?

10        A.   For the first time after what had happened to us on the 15th of

11     June I came to the place where the rest of the convoy ended up, the

12     women, children, and the elderly.  I'm a man who had survived the

13     execution and who was supposed to tell the truth to those who survived,

14     the wives and children and parents, so that the statement was necessary

15     the way it was.  It was given in a haste.  It lacks detail, but I had to

16     give it under the circumstances.

17        Q.   Now, isn't it true, though, that in neither statement of

18     September 11th 1992, or December 5th, 1992, do you mention Milan Lukic?

19        A.   That is possible.  As soon as I noticed the first mistakes in the

20     statement I didn't continue reading.  Those were not my true words.  My

21     true words were those that I -- from the statement in 1997.  This

22     statement I only gave to satisfy those that were present then.

23        Q.   What did you think was necessary to satisfy those who were

24     present investigating this case in 1992?

25        A.   I really don't know.  When I think back to that interrogation in

Page 537

 1     Mostar, I remembered the mistakes the investigators made at the time and

 2     that didn't matter to me immediately.  I think he retold my words to a

 3     lady who made a -- who made the protocol, who put it down on paper.  It

 4     didn't matter to me.  I had lived through the war and all these ordeals.

 5     It was essential, it was important that I make a statement and that I

 6     give a rough account without thorough analysis.  But in 1997, for two

 7     days, I testified in Sarajevo, and everything I remembered at the time

 8     was put on paper.  So if you want to ask me about the statement I made in

 9     1997.

10        Q.   To be honest --

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Witness.  Witness, you say that you remembered

12     the mistakes the investigators made.  What -- what were those mistakes?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot point out any mistakes

14     precisely, but when I said a sentence the investigator would either adapt

15     it or rephrase it.  It didn't matter to me at the time.  As soon as I saw

16     the statement that Djordje Gacic had called the Uzice Corps, which is

17     nonsense.  A simple peasant cannot possibly call in an army corps.  But

18     as I said, in 1992 I didn't pay attention to those things back in 1992.

19     I had only given -- been given a few days of leave to visit my father so

20     that the statement was given while the impressions of the execution were

21     still fresh.  Only a few months had elapsed.  So extracting things from

22     that statement I don't think would be a fair thing to do, although in --

23     in substance it is correct.

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Why didn't it matter to you at the time that

25     mistakes were made?

Page 538

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The war was only yet starting.  I

 2     was given five days of leave to visit my father, and I gave that

 3     statement in a haste because I had to go back to the front line.  I

 4     didn't mind those things at the time.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Alarid.

 6             MR. ALARID:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 7        Q.   Well, let's talk about the substance of the 1992 statements and

 8     then we can talk about how you recalled different things later.  Is that

 9     fair?

10        A.   No problem.

11        Q.   Do you speak English?

12        A.   [In English] No.  No.  [Interpretation] I only know a few words.

13        Q.   Well, you answered Ms. Sartorio with a yes, and so I assumed you

14     might have.

15             When you were first told --

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   -- that you were going to be given the option of a convoy, some

18     of the people saw this as a salvation; correct?

19        A.   That's what we all thought.

20        Q.   And that's because you had been hiding from persecution in the

21     woods; correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And you had also been scouting with binoculars and witnessed

24     other atrocities; correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 539

 1        Q.   And so -- but there was great suffering on the people that were

 2     hiding.  Isn't that true?

 3        A.   Yes, of course.

 4        Q.   And -- but during that time you -- how long have you been from

 5     the Visegrad area?

 6        A.   I don't understand the question.

 7        Q.   You were born in Visegrad?

 8        A.   In the surroundings of Visegrad.

 9        Q.   And the Visegrad area is -- is not a large area in terms of

10     population?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   And that's why you were able to recognise many names as

13     neighbours and friends, either Muslims or Serbs, during your earlier

14     statements; correct?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Now, would it be fair to say that in your mind, going back to the

17     15th of June as you say it, the convoy to execute the people on your bus,

18     would you consider that a war crime?

19        A.   Yes, of course.

20        Q.   And during that time you gave statements probably hoping that the

21     people responsible for that convoy and executions would be found justice.

22        A.   Those statements I gave at the time to satisfy the form and in

23     the hope that if I as the only survivor would be killed subsequently,

24     that a written trace would -- would remain behind.  But if -- I didn't

25     expect it to take on such a wrong shape.  That's why I was glad when I

Page 540

 1     got the opportunity to give another statement, which was 100 per cent

 2     accurate.

 3        Q.   And you were glad because the people that executed your friends

 4     were brought to justice?

 5        A.   Unfortunately, the people who conducted the execution are still

 6     at large, the organiser of the convoy is still at large.  And if I may --

 7        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... I'm sorry.

 8        A.   Please go on.  Go ahead.

 9        Q.   Who do you consider the organiser of the convoy?

10        A.   The main organiser of the convoy is Ljupko Tasic, my neighbour

11     from Bosanska Jagodina.

12        Q.   And is it fair to say you consider him responsible for the 50

13     deaths of the people on that bus?

14        A.   If I may, I'll take the opportunity to ask Mr. Milan Lukic.

15     Their conversation in the square in front of bus took a minute or two.

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Just stop.  You're not to ask any questions

17     here.  You answer questions.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, but the key

19     to the solution lies there.  If you wish, we can solve the case of the

20     convoy that was formed on the 14th of June, 1992.  Then we -- somebody

21     will have to put that question to Mr. Lukic.

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  The Prosecutor will do that if she considers it

23     appropriate.

24             MR. ALARID:

25        Q.   Mr. VG-11, let me ask you about Mr. Gacic.  Do you consider him

Page 541

 1     partly responsible for this convoy?

 2        A.   We were taken to the convoy because it was suggested to us by our

 3     neighbours.  Mr. Gacic approached us in the village of Zagre.  I trusted

 4     him, and he -- he was actually the first bait that we swallowed and got

 5     caught.

 6        Q.   And in terms of the bait do you think that he knew that it was

 7     not a convoy to remove you from the area and save you but in fact a

 8     convoy to take you to be executed?

 9        A.   I'm convinced that he knew that our convoy was not a convoy of

10     salvation, and those that had organised it had already judged us.  They

11     only used the good neighbourly relations that we had before to deceive

12     the people to get on the convoy, and unfortunately that's what we did.

13        Q.   What about the other local Serbs that you remembered their names,

14     Dusan Maric?

15        A.   Those people today, as far as I know from some people who

16     returned to Visegrad, live normally.  I must also say that Ljupko Tasic,

17     upon the questions of some returnees what had happened to the people on

18     the convoy, answered that he is not to blame for anything and that the

19     decision to execute us was taken by Milan Lukic in the square when he

20     turned up, and that's why it is important for me to know what the

21     conversation was that they had in the square.  It was very brief, only a

22     few sentences, and I believe that conversation relieves Milan Lukic of

23     the responsibility of that convoy.

24        Q.   You believe that conversation relieves him of responsibility?

25     What do you mean by that?

Page 542

 1        A.   Milan Lukic simply appeared and wanted to take his schoolmate out

 2     of the bus.  I think that during those months there was -- there wasn't

 3     probably anybody who could prevent Milan Lukic from doing something that

 4     he wanted to do, but Ljupko Tasic at that moment prevented him from

 5     taking Esad off the bus, and that -- it was impossible to achieve unless

 6     Milan Lukic promised to Ljupko Tasic something -- or, rather, the other

 7     way round.

 8        Q.   Well, who is Ljupko Tasic and what was his profession?

 9        A.   He was a neighbour of mine.  I must say that we were on good

10     terms.  He was a haulier.  He had some machines, some baggers.  We've

11     known each other since birth.  We never had any problems with each other.

12        Q.   But he had no problem taking you to be executed.

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And it's easy to assume that all the people that either escorted

15     you to the place of the execution all knew the fate of you and the fate

16     of your brothers?

17        A.   All the events around the execution were experienced through

18     something of a haze, a haze of disbelief.  I can only say that the guys

19     who actually executed those people knew very well how to do that.

20        Q.   What about Rade and Sladjan Simic?

21        A.   They were also neighbours of mine.  Rade owned a pub at Bosanska

22     Jagodina.  We had a meeting there on the 13th of June with Ljupko Tasic.

23     I wanted to find out what kind of convoy that was, because sometime ago a

24     similar convoy had been organised by Milan Lukic, and 17 or 19 people

25     ended up in the vicinity of Bosanska Jagodina.

Page 543

 1             I'm not an eyewitness.  I only heard accounts from other people

 2     and from the families of those that were executed, and among those 17 or

 3     19 people there was also a relative of my wife.  He is the only one who

 4     was buried at the cemetery, and the remains of the others were found in a

 5     chasm some eight kilometers from Visegrad, but only about half of the

 6     bodies.

 7             I only went to Bosanska Jagodina to prevent the same thing from

 8     happening to us too.

 9        Q.   But yet in your statement of 5 December 1992 when you mentioned

10     the fate of the 17 people on the earlier convoy, you made no mention of

11     Milan Lukic being responsible.

12        A.   When did I make that statement?

13        Q.   Well, you simply made the statement that you wanted to make sure

14     that the same fate didn't happen to your convoy that happened to the 17;

15     but you did not indicate Milan Lukic's name, nor that you believed that

16     he was responsible.  And I believe that's on page 2 of the statement in

17     Serbian.

18        A.   That is possible.  At the moment I possibly didn't know that

19     Milan Lukic was responsible for that convoy.  I still do not know, but

20     based on the accounts of other people whose family members ended up

21     there, it must have been Milan Lukic.  But there were bodies found there

22     and DNA analyses were conducted, and the remains found were buried.  And

23     it is beyond doubt that an execution was conducted.  But based on the

24     conversations I had and from people who know Milan Lukic, at the all say

25     that it is his responsibility.

Page 544

 1             I knew about this event, and I went to Bosanska Jagodina to talk

 2     to our neighbours to avoid the same thing from happening -- that the same

 3     thing happens again.  And about this convoy of 17 or 19 people, I cannot

 4     say much because I'm not competent.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Alarid, you have used 25 minutes.  I'll give

 6     you another 20 unless you really need more time.  Generally I'll allow 45

 7     minutes, but you may request additional time, and if I consider it

 8     justified then I'll give it.

 9             MR. ALARID:  Thank you, Your Honour.

10        Q.   But yet in your third statement of the 3rd and 4th of November,

11     1997, you again did not mention Milan Lukic in relation to the convoy of

12     17 people.  Isn't that true?

13        A.   Possibly.

14        Q.   And the only thing that you mentioned was that Milan Lukic asked

15     for Zenga to get off the bus in Visegrad?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And so would it be fair to say that it's possible that Mr. Lukic

18     was trying to take Zenga off the bus because he was a friend and maybe he

19     knew where you might be going, what your fate might be?

20        A.   Frankly speaking, I don't know.  It is possible that he wanted

21     just to take him for a drink.  I mean, that is really nonsense.  That is

22     impossible.  Zenga was just to be taken off the bus at that moment and be

23     liquidated.  That is a fact, because that was the only thing that was

24     going on in Visegrad was killing.  Killing was the order of the day.

25     People didn't eat.  People didn't drink.  The fact that they were

Page 545

 1     schoolmates really change anything, didn't make any difference.

 2             And as for this conversation between Ljupko and Mr. Milan it just

 3     resulted in Esad getting back on the bus.  What this famous sentence was

 4     what the substance of that dialogue was whereby Esad managed to get back

 5     on the bus that is something that Milan knows and I also know.  I know

 6     this particular sentence.  I've known it for the last 16 years but it is

 7     really too no avail because I'm the only one who does know it.

 8        Q.   But you're convinced Tasic knew your fate from the meeting on the

 9     13th.  Isn't that true?

10        A.   Please, these are assumptions.  I suppose so.  Actually, I'm

11     quite clear that it was so.  I'm quite sure that it was so.  But I should

12     like to say once again that Ljupko Tasic simply, when talking to the

13     returnees claim that Milan Lukic had changed the overall concept of the

14     convoy in the square.

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Just a minute.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Alarid.

18             MR. ALARID:  I didn't know if you were going to ask a question,

19     Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  No.  No.  You go ahead.

21             MR. ALARID:

22        Q.   So is it possible that Mr. Tasic --

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Mike, please.

24             MR. ALARID:

25        Q.   Is it possible that Mr. Tasic is simply passing the blame to

Page 546

 1     Mr. Lukic so he can live at peace in Visegrad?

 2             MS. SARTORIO:  Your Honours, I object at this point.  I don't

 3     know what he can get into the mind of Mr. Tasic at this point.

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I agree.  Ask another question.

 5             MR. ALARID:

 6        Q.   Mr. Tasic assumed -- appeared to have command responsibility of

 7     this convoy, did he not?

 8        A.   Yes.  It was actually with him that I made this deal, and we made

 9     the arrangements.  In fact, the meeting at the pub could not start

10     without him.  We waited for him for some 20 minutes, meaning that after

11     all he was the person in charge.

12        Q.   And he also told the other escorts and drivers what to do?

13        A.   I don't know that.

14        Q.   They moved the buses at his direction?

15        A.   I don't know that either.

16        Q.   What was Mr. Milan Lukic or who you believe to be Milan Lukic

17     wearing when he tried to get your friend off the bus?

18        A.   If you are referring to the three or four seconds -- that three

19     or four seconds that I had available to me, afraid as I was to actually

20     take in the details that is really impossible.  I just looked at his face

21     and then I bent my head again.  At that time one didn't just actually

22     look at Milan Lukic.  It wasn't a done thing.

23        Q.   You didn't know who Milan Lukic was at the time.  Why would it

24     matter?

25        A.   The man simply stood by my seat, and instinctively I looked up

Page 547

 1     and I looked at his face, and then I gazed down again.  This was done

 2     instinctively on my part.  If he gone to the seat behind me I wouldn't

 3     have known it was Milan Lukic.  I would have known from other people

 4     telling me that but I wouldn't have seen him myself up to today, and

 5     today however is the second time that I see him.  The first time that I

 6     saw him he really was there.

 7        Q.   And you can tell me that you can recognise a man who has aged 16

 8     years after seeing him for three seconds and not knowing his name and not

 9     knowing who he was until afterwards, not mentioning his name until 1997?

10        A.   I just have to clarify something for you.  Those moments when

11     someone is actually deciding your fate, life or death, your mind in such

12     moments it registers everything.  In hindsight, looking back at all these

13     years, in the reports that I saw in the media, I saw Milan Lukic many

14     times in the media reports, on television and so on.  So this is not

15     actually the second time that I see him.  This is the second time that I

16     see him in person, in the flesh.  And believe you me, it is possible to

17     take in one's face within the space of two or three seconds and have it

18     etched in one's mind forever.  It is possible, but one has to experience

19     it.  One has to experience some terrible ordeal in order for one's mind

20     to react in that way.  I believe if we had a drink then I wouldn't have

21     remembered his.

22        Q.   But do you think someone with all the responsibility and command

23     power would be able to snap his fingers and have Mr. Kustura off the bus,

24     no problem?

25        A.   That is the key, in fact.  If you want us to unlock this lock,

Page 548

 1     please tell the -- relate to Their Honours just the dialogue that

 2     Milan Lukic had conducted with Ljupko Tasic.  It is just a couple of

 3     sentences.  Of course if Milan Lukic remembers that dialogue, then I

 4     think he should remember it.

 5        Q.   Would it be fair to say if Mr. Lukic had no power to tell

 6     Mr. Tasic one way or another what to do he is not the Milan Lukic that

 7     the media has made him out to be, the stories?  You would have expected

 8     more?

 9        A.   No.  No, no, no.  I know what you're aim at -- aiming at.  I've

10     already said Milan Lukic could not be opposed by anybody.  No one could

11     stand up to Milan Lukic in those days.

12             What it was that Ljupko Tasic promised to Milan Lukic at that

13     particular moment outside the bus which made Milan Lukic sway in the

14     other direction and leave the convoy, I don't know that.  What --

15        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

16        A.   -- it was.  It's impossible.  It's impossible.

17        Q.   Who had power --

18        A.   That's impossible.

19        Q.   Who had power in Visegrad at that time?  Who had the SDS put into

20     power in Visegrad at that time?

21        A.   I don't know whom the SDS had appointed to be in power.  I

22     believe it was Savovic, but I don't think it matters.  I think that all

23     the power was in the hands of paramilitary units.  Milan Lukic and the

24     others who were there, some White Eagles and what have you, that's where

25     the power was.

Page 549

 1        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Would counsel please not overlap with the

 3     witness.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard about him also.  I think

 5     it's Professor Perisic.  If that's whom you mean, that is.

 6             MR. ALARID:

 7        Q.   And he also was chief and commander of the police?

 8        A.   Yes.  Unfortunately, it was degenerates of that kind that they

 9     usually appointed there.

10        Q.   What do you mean by degenerates?

11        A.   That man was not a man for that post.

12        Q.   Why not?

13        A.   He was the commander, the komandir of the police in Visegrad.

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Just a minute.  Witness, you've been talking

15     about the dialogue between Milan Lukic and Tasic on the bus as being the

16     key to unlock the -- the puzzle.  You heard this dialogue, did you?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Why do you believe it will be the key to unlock

19     the puzzle?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It indeed is the key to this riddle

21     because no one could oppose Milan Lukic in those days in Visegrad.  Why

22     did he listen to Ljupko Tasic and not to take Esad Kustura off the bus if

23     he had that power and he did?  What was it that Ljupko Tasic promised to

24     Milan Lukic?  That is it.  Actually, he didn't promise him anything.

25     It's just that Ljupko Tasic knew what fate would befall us.  It's just

Page 550

 1     that he conveyed to him what he already knew.  So if Mr. Milan Lukic

 2     remembers, recalls that sentence, let him publicly utter it here because

 3     I know that sentence.  I've known it for the last 16 years, but it is to

 4     no avail in this way.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  How have you known it?

 6             MR. ALARID:

 7        Q.   What do you believe that sentence to be?

 8             MR. ALARID:  I'm sorry, Judge.

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  I asked how did you know this sentence?

10     How did you get to know this sentence?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For 16 years now I've been living

12     with this crime.  I've been putting to the mosaic and the tiles,

13     arranging the tiles.  Someone here is responsible for that.  Someone has

14     promised me, including the Red Cross, the direction to Skopje and that I

15     would be escorted by my neighbours, Serbs.  I was promised this.

16             Nothing was actually honoured, but things took a quite different

17     turn.

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  What I want to find out, because you are here

19     to -- to give evidence, to assist the Trial Chamber in determining the

20     facts in this case, and if you say you have known this sentence for 16

21     years, the Trial Chamber is interested in finding out what it is that you

22     know and how you obtained that knowledge.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will tell you that sentence, but

24     I just wanted to have it confirmed.

25             In order to save someone at that moment Milan Lukic had to be

Page 551

 1     promised something.  At that moment, Ljupko just told Milan not to make a

 2     fuss there in the square, that we had already been designated for

 3     execution.  That was satisfactory for Milan Lukic and for him to leave

 4     the convoy.  That was enough for him.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  And how -- how do you know that Milan was told

 6     this by Ljupko?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, everything that was unfolding

 8     surrounding this convoy.  It had all been deliberate.  It had all been

 9     planned.

10             On the morrow, on the 15th of June, we ended up at the pit.  Had

11     we actually passed, gone on with that convoy, these conversations would

12     all be irrelevant.

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Is it correct to say that you have deduced this

14     from all the circumstances?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  All right.  Thank you.  We'll take the break

17     now.  Twenty minutes.

18                           --- Recess taken at 10.20 a.m.

19                           --- On resuming at 10.42 a.m.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Alarid, you have four minutes left.

21             MR. ALARID:  I do believe the team of Sredoje Lukic was going to

22     offer some of their time.

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the counsel.

24             MR. ALARID:  I believe that the Sredoje Lukic team was going to

25     allocate some of their time as well, Your Honour.

Page 552

 1             JUDGE ROBINSON:  You mean allocate some of their time to you.

 2             MR. ALARID:  Yes.

 3             MR. CEPIC:  Your Honour, with your leave we have just a couple

 4     questions for this witness.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Right.  So how much longer do you intend to be?

 6             MR. ALARID:  Well, there's three statements, Judge, and there are

 7     some more inconsistencies to go into.  I would as a practical matter like

 8     to introduce the 11 September 1992 statements and the 5 December 1992

 9     statement into evidence.  The 11 September 1992 1D00-0145, and the

10     December 5th statement, 1992, is 1D00-0152.

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  So you want to have those admitted.

12             MR. ALARID:  Admitted.

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, they're admitted.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, 1D00-0145 will become Exhibit 1D6

15     and 1D00-0152 will become Exhibit 1D7.

16             MR. ALARID:

17        Q.   Mr. 11, let's talk about the other people that participated in

18     the execution at the end of your trip that day.  Do you recall the day of

19     the week?

20        A.   It was the 15th of June.  I don't know the day of the week.

21        Q.   Well, I mean did you have any other activities that would tell

22     you whether it was a weekday or a weekend?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   Tell me the people that participated in the execution, either by

25     escorting, driving, or shooting.

Page 553

 1        A.   I only know two people, Predrag Milisavljevic, who started the

 2     execution, and Boris Ceho, who was standing -- who was standing on the

 3     side close to us.

 4        Q.   Isn't it true that Boris Ceho was a reserve policeman?

 5        A.   It is true, and at the time he was wearing the uniform of a

 6     reserve police officer.  I also used to be a reserve police officer.

 7        Q.   How many other people in that detail were wearing uniforms of

 8     policemen or reserve policemen?

 9        A.   I think that only Boris Ceho was wearing such a uniform of a

10     reserve police officer.  And apart from these two there were another nine

11     people there, a total of 11 as far as I could tell at the moment and as

12     far as I remember.  Eleven people were at the pit.  I know that the guy

13     who when Predrag Milisavljevic started the execution at the pit had a

14     flak jacket on him.  He was wearing a flak jacket.

15        Q.   Over his uniform?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And Predrag clearly told other people what to do?

18        A.   That's an interesting thing that nobody commanded anybody there.

19     They gave the impression of a well-trained team who knew what they were

20     doing.  I never heard a single command being said.  But it's a fact that

21     Slavisa Vukojicic who, didn't know at the time, he's from Rogatica, only

22     after my escape did other people tell me his name based on my

23     description.  He seemed to be in charge, and I believe that he was

24     wearing no arms, no weapons.

25        Q.   Now, isn't it true that as of your December 1992 statement you

Page 554

 1     had learned that Baja Zukic had been killed?

 2        A.   The name must be wrong.  Zukic.  Yes, that's the last name, but

 3     it is not Baja.

 4        Q.   Okay.  I'm sorry.  What is her first name?

 5        A.   We're talking about a woman.

 6        Q.   Yes.

 7        A.   There were no women at the pit.  There were men exclusively.

 8        Q.   I'm sorry, you misunderstand me.  I'm talking about after your

 9     escape you later learned that Ms. Zukic had been killed somewhere else.

10        A.   I heard that the following convoy that left after ours -- on the

11     other convoy there was a woman who was killed.  It's possible that it was

12     Ms. Zukic, but I cannot confirm that.

13        Q.   So you never heard the name of Milan Lukic associated with

14     Ms. Zukic?

15        A.   Behija Zukic, whether she was really killed on one of those

16     convoys or in town, in her house.

17        Q.   So you don't know.

18        A.   If are talking about the person I mean Behija Zukic, she was

19     killed in her house.

20        Q.   And you did not hear Milan Lukic associated with this?

21        A.   I did, that Milan Lukic was mentioned in connection with the

22     killing of Behija Zukic if we're talking about the same person, I mean

23     the one who had a house in Duce.

24        Q.   And you didn't mention Mr. Lukic in your December 1992 statement,

25     so you later learned of this between 1992 and 1997?

Page 555

 1        A.   I think I knew that even before that time, but the statement I

 2     gave in two, I've already described the circumstances in which it was

 3     given.  I was still under the impression of my or deal, because this

 4     isn't anything I know first-hand.  I only heard accounts from other

 5     people.  I didn't see it.  I don't know for sure.  I heard lots of

 6     things.  We can talk for days about all the things I heard.

 7        Q.   Well, would it be fair to say all the things you heard about

 8     Milan Lukic was sometime between your December statement of 1992 and 1997

 9     because you never mention him till 1997?

10        A.   Well, believe me, I really cannot tell.

11        Q.   Well, you didn't know who Milan Lukic was in the square at

12     Visegrad when you were on the bus; correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And the only word you got was that a name was mentioned that day

15     that you didn't remember until 1997; correct?

16        A.   No.  I heard that name on the very same day on the bus.  I asked

17     Mirsad Zukic, who the man was who got on the bus, and he told me.  I

18     don't know if they were schoolmates, but Milan Lukic called Esad out by

19     calling him a schoolmate.  So I knew that it was Milan Lukic on that very

20     day.

21        Q.   And you knew on that very day that he did not have the power to

22     take him off the bus?

23        A.   On the following day I found out that Milan Lukic did have a lot

24     of power, unfortunately.

25        Q.   You found that out on the following day but never mentioned it

Page 556

 1     even in 1997?

 2        A.   Well, probably nobody ever asked me about it.

 3        Q.   And you didn't mention it in your testimony of 2001?

 4        A.   Well, probably even then nobody asked me about that.

 5        Q.   But would it be fair to say that based on your overall

 6     understanding of the power structure in Visegrad, the Crisis Staff and

 7     Perisic had the control in town?

 8        A.   Dear sir, if I may ask you one thing.  Is there one single

 9     protocol about the crimes --

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Just a minute.  Just a minute, please.  You are

11     not to ask questions.  That is counsel's right.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

13             As far as I know, there is no single protocol about the crimes

14     committed at the police station mentions Perisic, but certain crimes were

15     committed, and this is a clear evidence that the police was not what they

16     were supposed to be, that they were all involved in crimes.

17             MR. ALARID:

18        Q.   And they were led by Perisic?

19        A.   Perisic was my teacher, unfortunately.  Who he led and where I

20     really don't know.

21        Q.   Now, you testified in the trial of Mr. Vasiljevic; correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And in that trial you testified that you didn't learn that

24     Milan Lukic -- his name until later; correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 557

 1        Q.   But nothing about that conversation told you that he was in

 2     power; correct?

 3        A.   Which conversation do you mean?

 4        Q.   The conversation where you learned his name for the first time.

 5        A.   Could you please repeat the entire question?

 6        Q.   That there was nothing about the conversation where you learned

 7     Milan Lukic's name that told you he had any position of power or

 8     responsibility.

 9        A.   I heard about Milan Lukic from the very beginning of the war

10     actions in Visegrad but that's all.  I only heard about him, and until

11     the end of the war I heard stories about his actions, but these are

12     things I cannot comment upon.

13        Q.   Isn't it true in your testimony before the Tribunal you indicated

14     that you were confused why only Mitar Vasiljevic was charged with these

15     crimes of Visegrad?

16        A.   I may have said that if that's what the transcript says.

17        Q.   You knew Mitar Vasiljevic had -- had drinks with him casually?

18        A.   Yes.  That was all before the war started.  We were even on good

19     terms.  We had more drinks than just a few together with Mitar -- or,

20     rather, fortunately I never met Mitar Vasiljevic.

21        Q.   Unfortunately?

22        A.   Yes, unfortunately.  Actually, I said fortunately.  I said

23     fortunately.

24        Q.   You never met him after the war started is what you're saying?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 558

 1        Q.   But nothing about his -- his demeanour told you that he would be

 2     a monster during the war.  Would that be fair?

 3        A.   Well, look here.  Visegrad is a very small town.  It is a

 4     beautiful town, at least it used to be up to the war, where everybody

 5     knew everybody.  It is inconceivable, for instance, for a -- for

 6     schoolmates to kill one another.  It was inconceivable.  And the same

 7     thing applied to Milan.

 8             As for Mitar Vasiljevic, and actually in respect of everybody who

 9     is proved who have been or even not proved to have been something of the

10     kind, well, I've lived through too many things in order not to remember

11     the situations.

12        Q.   But would it be fair to say that a guy like Mitar Vasiljevic

13     couldn't have killed the thousands that died or disappeared in the

14     Visegrad area during that time?

15             MS. SARTORIO:  Your Honour, I object to the question.  I mean,

16     first of all it calls for speculation.  I don't know if this witness --

17     there has been no foundation laid whether this witness would know that

18     answer, and it really, quite frankly, isn't relevant.

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I agree.  You must move on and focus your

20     cross-examination, Mr. Alarid.

21             MR. ALARID:  Your Honour, as a proffer to the Court in terms of

22     relevance, one, I believe that the witness has been allowed to speak from

23     points of speculation at many junctures in this testimony, both on direct

24     exam by the Prosecution and well as just his general knowledge of the

25     area.  I think his overall knowledge of Milan Lukic is based on

Page 559

 1     speculation and rumours and stories that transcended years of this

 2     conflict.

 3             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  Move on.  I'm not allowing the question.

 4     Ask another one.

 5             MR. ALARID:

 6        Q.   Now, isn't it true that in the area, as far as you know,

 7     thousands of people were displaced or killed?

 8        A.   It is.

 9        Q.   And many Muslim mosques and homes were burnt and destroyed?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And this took the coordinated effort of hundreds, if not more,

12     Serbs?

13        A.   That's right.

14        Q.   And prior to this -- or at the time that you were going through

15     this you had never heard the name of Milan Lukic in a position of power.

16     You only heard stories later.

17        A.   I had heard these stories about Milan Lukic even prior to joining

18     the convoy, but I was not at all interested in that person.  I didn't

19     even know who that man was.  It was totally immaterial to me.  It was

20     unimportant who he was or what he did.  Simply what I knew from these

21     stories was that his chief occupation during these months in 1992 was

22     killing.  Nothing good.  Nothing, absolutely nothing good.  From all the

23     things that I heard about -- in all the things that I heard about

24     Milan Lukic there was nothing good.

25        Q.   Do you realise that today is the first day that you've ever said

Page 560

 1     that you heard about Milan Lukic before the 14th of June, 1992?

 2             MS. SARTORIO:  Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Ms. Sartorio.

 4             MS. SARTORIO:  I object to the question.  He can say the first

 5     time he's ever said in the three statements that are before him, but we

 6     don't know what he's said to anyone else.

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  The question that counsel put was that today is

 8     the first time that he never said he heard about Milan Lukic before the

 9     14th of June, and what is -- what's wrong with that?

10             MS. SARTORIO:  Well, said to whom is what's wrong with that.

11     First time he's ever said -- I think counsel should rephrase the question

12     that -- with relation to the statements that are the subject of this

13     examination, not whether he's ever made a statement to anybody ever in

14     the world.

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Alarid, put it in context.  Are you talking

16     about the first time that he said in relation to the statements?

17             MR. ALARID:  Yes, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  But more generally.

19             MR. ALARID:  I'm actually saying it in relation to the statements

20     and his prior testimony in Vasiljevic.

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  That's what I thought.

22             MR. ALARID:

23        Q.   So, Mr. 11, I'll re-put the question to you.  Isn't it true that

24     under oath this is the first time that you've mentioned Milan Lukic or

25     knowledge of him before the 14th of June?  This is the first time in

Page 561

 1     court today, yet you've had four, five opportunities with authorities to

 2     say it before?

 3        A.   This is the first time that we are dealing with the subject of

 4     Milan Lukic.  This is the first time that I am talking the witness stand

 5     in the case against Milan Lukic.  So it is quite possible that we might

 6     ferret out some other things.

 7        Q.   On the -- in December -- excuse me.  How long was your interview

 8     in September of 1992?

 9        A.   It was given in Mostre; right?  The conversation, rather, the

10     statement that I gave to investigators in Mostre, if that is what you're

11     referring to, lasted from 1400 hours in the afternoon until 10.00 p.m.,

12     until 2200 hours.

13        Q.   And so during all those hours reliving what had happened to you

14     in those three days and those responsible in the Visegrad area you failed

15     to mention the name of Milan Lukic?

16        A.   Well, I repeat.  I gave that statement just to satisfy the

17     procedural requirements.  I did not actually pay any attention to

18     details.  It is so full of shortcomings that statement.  It is

19     incomplete.  As I said before, the war had only just started.  I was

20     given some time off to visit my father and to go back, so I lost a day of

21     statement-giving time.

22             Had I known that I would survive the war and I would be sitting

23     here today, certainly this statement from 1997 would have replaced the

24     one from 1992.  The way things stand, unfortunately that's the way it had

25     to happen.

Page 562

 1        Q.   So let's jump forward to the statement of 1997.  You gave a

 2     statement that was translated into nine pages in English; correct?  And

 3     you signed and initialed those pages?

 4        A.   That's right.

 5        Q.   And it was otherwise ten pages in B/C/S?

 6        A.   I do not remember the exact number of pages, believe me, but I do

 7     know that I signed it.

 8        Q.   And in that statement you only mentioned Milan Lukic in relation

 9     to just finding out his name and no background knowledge about him with

10     any specificity or no leadership responsibility information?

11        A.   This has been extracted from context, I guess.  If that is what

12     it says, that's the way it was.  I do not have that entire statement in

13     my head.

14        Q.   And in fact, you only saw White Eagles there but you only heard

15     he was a member of the White Eagles is what you said in your statement of

16     December -- excuse me, of November 1997.

17        A.   Yes.  Yes, it is true that that is what I said in 1997, but after

18     having re-read this statement, I actually saw that that was superfluous,

19     because the White Eagles didn't have white wings for one to be able to

20     see that they were indeed White Eagles.  I found it superfluous to

21     comment on that.  I just heard that Milan Lukic was a member of the White

22     Eagles.  Now, if that is relevant, namely what I heard, well, that is

23     actually why I corrected my statement subsequently and actually took out

24     these two sentences from that statement.

25        Q.   But what you did say in at that statement was specifically that

Page 563

 1     Ljupko Tasic told Milan Lukic that Esad couldn't leave the bus.

 2        A.   In this context, the way you put it or the way it was translated

 3     to me, well, in respect of that it is the fact that Esad told me in

 4     passing, "Ljupko has saved me," or, "Ljupko put me back on the bus."

 5     That was my statement.  And that Ljupko told Esad to get back on the bus,

 6     I didn't hear that, and I do not stand by that, and I cannot say that

 7     that was how it was.

 8        Q.   And the first time you ever said that that Zenga said that Ljupko

 9     saved me was today in court.

10        A.   It is possible.  Perhaps I said it in a different context.  It is

11     very difficult to repeat verbatim words that were uttered seven or nine

12     years ago, but the substance I expect is the same.  You don't expect me

13     to know these sentences or statements by heart.

14        Q.   But in fact the irony is that Zenga was wrong and Ljupko had in

15     fact killed him?

16        A.   No.  Ljupko killed no one.  Ljupko had prepared the groundwork,

17     everything for the murder to come about.  So this saving of him, this

18     deliverance in the square was just a travesty in order to avoid any fuss

19     and to avoid any protests among the people, but everything had been

20     agreed on beforehand and actually events bore that out.

21        Q.   But you never got any information that Mr. Lukic participated in

22     this collaboration beforehand?

23        A.   No.  No.  I had no such information.  From the very few returnees

24     to Visegrad who still unfortunately have dealings or communication with

25     Ljupko Tasic I heard this, and he is saying that he is not to blame for

Page 564

 1     anything and that that encounter was used in the square in order to shift

 2     all the blame to Milan Lukic.  This is what I heard.  Although I do think

 3     if Milan Lukic remembers the conversation in the square that that solves

 4     many things.  I've already said so before, and I have said what happened

 5     at that very moment.

 6        Q.   And if Milan Lukic told you that he tried to save Zepa and had no

 7     power to do so, would you believe him?

 8        A.   Oh, come on.  That's ridiculous.

 9        Q.   Tasic refused his request.

10        A.   Milan Lukic knows that best.  I've already said.  The

11     conversation that was conducted outside partially or entirely exonerates

12     Milan Lukic of responsibility for this convoy.  If Milan Lukic knows what

13     that conversation was about I would ask for that to be told publicly.  If

14     not, then this label sticks, which is also a possibility, namely that

15     Ljupko Tasic is now shifting the responsibility onto the shoulders of

16     Milan Lukic, and that of course is possible too.

17        Q.   And you just don't know, do you?

18        A.   Would you -- you would have to repeat the question so that I

19     could see what it is that I don't know that you're referring to as me not

20     knowing it, in fact.

21        Q.   You don't know if Ljupko Tasic is simply shifting the blame onto

22     Milan Lukic because he's charged here in court.

23        A.   Well, that's the story now from Ljupko's mouth, but I repeat I

24     heard it all.  I didn't see it, nor did I talk to Ljupko myself.  But it

25     is a fact that according to Ljupko's words, Milan Lukic actually had this

Page 565

 1     civilised and normal, regular convoy transformed into one of death.  Not

 2     in these very words, I have dramatised it a bit, but when all is said and

 3     done that's what it amounted to.

 4             The only thing which I did see which is relevant is the

 5     conversation that they had in the square, and it is a fact that after

 6     that conversation Milan Lukic left the convoy and I never saw him again

 7     in my life.  Therefore, that conversation of theirs was satisfactory.  It

 8     was enough for Milan Lukic.

 9        Q.   Do you realise that Milan Lukic is not accused of the murder of

10     the people on your convoy?

11        A.   Well, I confirm that also.

12        Q.   When did you confirm that?

13        A.   For the murder of people -- not -- not the killing of people.

14     Milan Lukic was not at the pit when these people were executed at the pit

15     on the 15th of June.  I claim that with full responsibility.

16        Q.   But do you realise that he's not accused of any responsibility in

17     the planning or execution of a plan to murder the people on the bus with

18     you that day?

19        A.   It is possible that he is not charged with that, but --

20        Q.   Is it possible he's not responsible for that?

21        A.   I just say --

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Alarid, it appears to me that you have spent

23     enough time on this issue.  He's not charged with it.  Let's move on.

24             MR. ALARID:

25        Q.   Do you feel that the 111 or so people that ended up at the pit

Page 566

 1     that day should have been charged?

 2        A.   These were people who were merely discharging the dishonourable

 3     task of killing people.  Of course for the crime of murder they should be

 4     put on trial, as well as should be the masterminds of this entire

 5     operation.  It is not just 11 people who simply took some weapons, picked

 6     up some people and killed them off.

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  That question escaped me.  I don't see its

 8     relevance.  If you do not have any other relevant questions you should

 9     stop.

10             MR. ALARID:  Your Honour, the relevance goes to bias or motive to

11     fabricate and or place the blame on someone since so few people were

12     actually charged with the Visegrad crimes.

13             MS. SARTORIO:  Your Honour, may I be heard for this?

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

15             MS. SARTORIO:  I think my colleague for the Defence has pointed

16     out the accused are not charged with this crime.  There's -- this witness

17     is not here to testify that the accused participated in this crime, and I

18     think this has gone on -- this doesn't have anything to do with this

19     witness's credibility in terms of what actually happened to him.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  It has some relevance and I've allowed the

21     cross-examination to follow that course, but you must move to another

22     topic now.

23             MR. ALARID:  One moment, Your Honour, to check my notes.

24        Q.   Do you know where the White Eagles were supposedly garrisoned?

25        A.   No, I didn't.

Page 567

 1        Q.   Did you have any information on -- and there --

 2             MR. ALARID:  Your Honour, my case manager indicates there was an

 3     issue on translation, maybe with regard to "garrisoned."

 4        Q.   Do you know where the White Eagles were staying in Visegrad?

 5        A.   It doesn't make any difference.  The answer is the same.  I

 6     don't.

 7        Q.   And even at most all you had heard was that Milan Lukic was

 8     supposedly a member of these White Eagles but not a leader?

 9        A.   Well, believe me, I don't remember now.  What I do know is from

10     the statements of many people, and that is that his was the last word.

11     Now, whether he was the actual leader or not, that is less important.

12        Q.   You saw no insignia or special uniform that day?

13        A.   Not -- nothing specific that would actually stick in my mind.  On

14     that day I had different problems.  I had problems in my own mind when I

15     saw that on -- at that time on the 14th of June.  It was the end of

16     liberty.  We had no more rights.  We were disenfranchised.  These are

17     problems of a quite different ilk than whether someone was wearing a

18     cockade or this or that or insignia.  That didn't seem important at all.

19        Q.   But in fact you didn't see a symbol or a cockade?

20        A.   It is totally unimportant.  Even had I seen one all the events

21     that ensued afterwards would have deleted that from my memory.  The --

22     that's how immaterial it was.  But definitely now I don't think -- I

23     didn't see a cockade.  There were different badges but I didn't see one

24     of that kind.

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Alarid, you must bring your

Page 568

 1     cross-examination to an end.

 2             MR. ALARID:  I have three more questions.

 3             JUDGE ROBINSON:  There will be no time left for your colleague.

 4             MR. ALARID:  Yes, sir.  One other question, Judge.

 5        Q.   Of the gentlemen that did commit the excuses at the pit, how many

 6     were blonde?

 7        A.   As for the descriptions of all these people, I believe that they

 8     are perhaps in one of these statements.  Slavisa Vukojicic was blonde and

 9     as I recall he was the only markedly blonde person there.  How relevant

10     that is now I really don't know.  I didn't look to see who was blonde or

11     not.  At that moment everybody could have been blonde.  But to answer

12     your question precisely, Slavisa Vukojicic was definitely blonde and I

13     believe the others were not.  And one of them was grey haired.

14        Q.   Did the blonde gentleman have any tattoos on his arms?

15        A.   He was wearing a T-shirt with folded up -- rolled up sleeves.  So

16     I actually didn't notice, and it didn't even occur to me to look and see

17     whether he had a tattoo or not.  He could have had or been anything at

18     that particular moment in time, but it really didn't catch my perception

19     or observation.  In fact, that man had beat me up at Rogatica, but I

20     didn't know whether he had a tattoo or not, which didn't mean that he did

21     not have one.

22             MR. ALARID:  No further questions.

23             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Dieckmann?

24             MR. DIECKMANN:  Yes.  Thank you, Your Honour.

25                           Cross-examination by Mr. Dieckmann:

Page 569

 1        Q.   Good morning.

 2        A.   Good morning.

 3        Q.   My name is Jens Dieckmann.  I am co-counsel for Mr. Sredoje Lukic

 4     and I have just a very few questions for you.

 5             You know Sredoje Lukic; correct?

 6        A.   If you can say that two encounters in one's life make one person

 7     know another person than we do know each other.  We had a very brief

 8     encounter, the first one in the square.  This is our second one, and

 9     that's the extent to which I know him.

10        Q.   I'm speaking about Sredoje Lukic.

11        A.   Well, I apologise.  I apologise.  I do know Sredoje Lukic well.

12     He was a policeman before the war in Visegrad, and my brother was the

13     deputy komandir at that police station.  He was working in the transport

14     section.  I was at the petrol station and those went one together, so we

15     had quite a few drinks together, and unfortunately it is a pity that we

16     are not having them today as well.

17        Q.   And you know Sredoje Lukic as a family man being married with two

18     children at this time, small children?

19        A.   No.  No.  I know Sredoje Lukic just as himself, Sredoje Lukic.

20     He never took out any of his family members of his to have drinks with

21     me, so I just know him personally.

22        Q.   From your personal experience with Sredoje Lukic, do you agree

23     with me that Sredoje Lukic is a friendly person, a good person of a good

24     character?

25        A.   To the extent that can or cannot be of assistance in this case.

Page 570

 1     All these people who have been proved or to have committed crimes or

 2     those whose crimes will be proven --

 3             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Just a minute.  Just a minute.  Witness, you're

 4     asked whether from your personal experience with Sredoje Lukic whether

 5     you would agree that he's a friendly person, a good person of good

 6     character.  Now, that question is a question that in my view you can

 7     answer.  What is your answer?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Yes, I agree.

 9             MR. DIECKMANN:  Thank you.  No further questions.

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Alarid.

11             MR. ALARID:  I know it's a little out of order --

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the counsel.

13             MR. ALARID:  I hit the button but it didn't go.  Your Honour,

14     just based on one follow-up -- and literally one follow-up question based

15     on the cross-examination of Mr. Dieckmann.

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, one question.

17                           Further Cross-examination by Mr. Alarid:

18        Q.   Mr. 11, would it be fair to say that what you know of

19     Mr. Sredoje Lukic and what little you know of Milan Lukic that --

20             MR. CEPIC:  Objection.

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Just a second.

22             MR. CEPIC:  Objection, Your Honour.  It is not raised from direct

23     examination and my learned friend Mr. Alarid had the opportunity to ask

24     those questions from his examination.  So this is something which is

25     raised from our cross-examination and pursuant to my opinion it is

Page 571

 1     allowed to ask right now.

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Why is that?  You haven't heard the question.

 3     You're saying any questioning by Mr. Alarid now is out of order.

 4             MR. CEPIC:  But with your leave my client is not mentioned during

 5     his examination.

 6             MR. ALARID:  And I agree with that, Your Honour.

 7             MR. CEPIC:  And any mention of my client immediately is my

 8     reaction in that way.

 9             MR. ALARID:  I understand Mr. Cepic wants to protect his client

10     and to be honest the point I'm trying to make doesn't hurt his client.

11     It's merely a point I'm trying to make.

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I will allow the question.

13             MR. ALARID:

14        Q.   Mr. 11, this again goes back to your personal knowledge of

15     Sredoje Lukic, and I understand you know very little about Milan Lukic.

16     Would it be fair to say that given Sredoje Lukic's age and position in

17     the community at the time that he wouldn't have been in a position to

18     have taken orders from a man like Milan Lukic, a younger man?

19        A.   Those were different times.  I don't know their hierarchy.  Those

20     were different times, times of war.  What kind of hierarchy was in place

21     among them?  Who gave out orders, who received orders, that has to do

22     with their structure.  I cannot give you any information pertaining to

23     that.

24        Q.   But, sir, that's not the question I --

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  That's enough.  I am not going to have

Page 572

 1     that pursued.

 2             Any re-examination?

 3             MS. SARTORIO:  No, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Okay.  Witness, that concludes your evidence.

 5     We thank you for coming to the Tribunal to give it.  You may now leave.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I may just sum up in two or

 7     three sentences.

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  It's not for you to sum up, Witness.  I

 9     appreciate your -- the interest you have taken in the case, but your

10     function has come to an end.  You may now leave.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

12                           [The witness withdrew]

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  The next witness, Ms. Sartorio.

14             MS. SARTORIO:  Yes, Your Honour.  The Prosecution calls VG-047 to

15     the stand, and my colleague Rachel Friedman will be handling the direct

16     examination.

17                           [The witness entered court]

18                           WITNESS:  MEVSUD POLJO

19                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Let the witness make the declaration.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

22     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

23             JUDGE ROBINSON:  You may begin, Ms. Friedman.

24             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Thank you, Mr. President.

25                           Examination by Ms. Friedman:

Page 573

 1        Q.   Good morning.  Can you please state your name for the record?

 2        A.   My name is Mevsud Poljo.

 3        Q.   Mr. Poljo, where were you living in June of 1992?

 4        A.   In June of 1992, I lived in Zepa.

 5        Q.   And what was the name of the town?

 6        A.   I'm not sure that Zepa was a municipality at the time.  I believe

 7     the -- it belonged to the municipality of Rogatica.  I lived in a

 8     village.

 9        Q.   And the name of the village, please?

10        A.   The name of the village.  Slap, it is Slap.  I lived in a house

11     in Slap, which was in the outskirts of Zepa.

12        Q.   Thank you.  And Mr. Poljo, do you recall testifying here in the

13     Vasiljevic trial on December 17 and 18th, 2001?

14        A.   Yes, I remember.

15        Q.   Since coming to The Hague are you had a chance to listen to that

16     testimony in a language that you understand?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Was the testimony accurate?

19        A.   Yes, it was.

20        Q.   If we asked you today the same questions that you were asked

21     then, would you give the same answers?

22        A.   Yes, I would.

23             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Your Honours, the Prosecution moves to tender into

24     evidence 65 ter numbers 113 and 114, which was the evidence that was

25     given in the Vasiljevic trial by Mr. Poljo.

Page 574

 1             JUDGE ROBINSON:  It's admitted.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter 113 will become Exhibit P23

 3     and 65 ter number 114 will become Exhibit P24.

 4             MS. FRIEDMAN:  The Prosecution also movers to tender into

 5     evidence 65 ter number 112, and that is the aerial photograph of Slap

 6     that the witness referred to during his testimony.

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, we admit it.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P25, Your Honours.

 9             MS. FRIEDMAN:  And, Your Honours, if I may ask just a few

10     questions to supplement that testimony.

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

12             MS. FRIEDMAN:

13        Q.   Mr. Poljo, when you and a group of men pulled bodies out of the

14     river in June and July 1992, can you tell me how many bodies you were

15     able to retrieve?

16        A.   170 or 180-odd corpses.

17        Q.   And of those how many did you personally recognise?

18        A.   Close to 50.

19        Q.   And did you know where those victims had come from?

20        A.   The bodies were washed up in the Drina River from the direction

21     of Visegrad.

22        Q.   And was there anything on the bodies that made you think that

23     they had come from Visegrad?

24        A.   They were people who had lived in Visegrad, who worked in

25     companies in Visegrad, and some of my neighbours who lived nearby in

Page 575

 1     Visegrad.

 2        Q.   Which companies did some of those people work in?

 3        A.   Terpentin and Varda, Visegrad.  They had uniforms and in their

 4     pockets they also had coupons on which there was the name of -- there

 5     were the names of those firms.

 6        Q.   One final matter, Your Honours the aerial photograph of Slap was

 7     discussed in prior testimony but it was not marked.  Would that assist

 8     you if we were to call that up now and make a few markings?

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I would think so, yes.

10             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Okay.  Will the court usher please call up

11     Prosecution Exhibit 25.  Thank you.  And can it be rotated?  Yes.

12     Perfect.  Thank you.  Yes.  And could the court usher assist the witness

13     with the marking.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not sure I understand what I'm

15     supposed to mark.

16             MS. FRIEDMAN:

17        Q.   We haven't begun yet.  I will certainly explain that to you.

18     Thank you, Mr. Poljo.  Okay.  First will you please mark your own

19     initials and today's date, the 26th of August, on the bottom of the

20     photograph.  You can use it as if it were a real pen.

21        A.   [Marks]

22        Q.   Thank you.  Will you please take the pen and mark an arrow on the

23     body of water in the direction the water flowed.  Sorry, should say in

24     the Drina River.

25        A.   [Marks]

Page 576

 1        Q.   Can you just confirm for me the name of the river that you have

 2     marked now?

 3        A.   It was called Zepa, just as the place, the nearby place is called

 4     Zepa.

 5        Q.   Okay.  So can you identify the Drina River?  Mark a D on the

 6     Drina River.

 7        A.   [Marks]

 8        Q.   And which way on that river did the water flow?  Can you mark an

 9     arrow please?

10        A.   [Marks]

11        Q.   Thank you.  And can you just write the letter V in the general

12     direction of Visegrad town.

13        A.   [Marks]

14        Q.   And lastly, if you could please write an X at the location where

15     you buried the bodies.  The approximate location.  I know it's a rather

16     large stretch.

17        A.   [Marks]

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             MS. FRIEDMAN:  I'd like to now tender this marked photograph into

20     evidence.

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  It's admitted.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P26, Your Honours.

23             MS. FRIEDMAN:  I have no further questions at this time.

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you.  Mr. Alarid.

25             MR. ALARID:  Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 577

 1                           Cross-examination by Mr. Alarid:

 2        Q.   Mr. 47, good morning.

 3        A.   Good morning.

 4        Q.   Now, approximately how long did you take it upon yourself to

 5     recover bodies from the Drina?

 6        A.   We recovered one body in mid-May and the others in June and July

 7     and some in September.

 8        Q.   And from your -- did you do it in a boat or did you do it from

 9     the shore?

10        A.   I recovered some bodies when I was in a boat.  I recovered some

11     bodies from the Drina, and for a week the bodies were floating on the

12     river.  Nobody recovered them.  And then as I had a brother who worked at

13     Terpentin, actually two brothers and an uncle and others, and then we

14     decided to recover bodies to at least make it possible to know where

15     their graves were.  And then later on two others joined me in recovering

16     bodies using boats.

17        Q.   Now, of course you can't tell -- just because you recovered a

18     body you can't necessarily tell who killed them?

19        A.   No.  I don't know that.  That's -- it happened far away, over 20

20     kilometres away from me.

21        Q.   And is -- so Visegrad, the town, is 20 kilometres away?

22        A.   Twenty kilometres or possibly more.  I'm not sure.

23        Q.   Because of course you don't know exactly where exactly it was put

24     in the water, do you?

25        A.   No.  There is no way you can tell, because they were in a bad

Page 578

 1     state.  Some were in a better state, some in a worse state.  Some were --

 2     probably got stuck on the way and remained in a place for a while.

 3             I remember two bodies that had bullet holes.  They were from a

 4     village nearby, Ibrahim and Hamed Vusevic [phoen] one had two bullet

 5     holes, one in the throat, the other in the chest.  Those were fresh

 6     bodies, clean, and in their pockets they had what people use for personal

 7     hygiene, and they had their arms raised to -- as -- as if to defend

 8     themselves from the bullets.  All the other bodies were in a bad state.

 9        Q.   And would it be fair to say that in this case you've had an

10     opportunity to give statements on three separate occasions and then

11     testify at trial on one occasion over two days?

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes?

13             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Your Honour, just to clarify he hasn't given three

14     statements in this case.  One in relation to the Vasiljevic case, two

15     others long before.  I just want to make sure that's clear for the

16     record.

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you.

18             MR. ALARID:  I understand, and we'll stipulate to that, Your

19     Honour.

20        Q.   Now, would it be fair to say, Mr. 47, that the only time in the

21     three statements that you mention Mr. Milan Lukic or Mitar Vasiljevic was

22     in the third statement given the 30th of January, 2000?

23        A.   I don't remember when I mentioned Milan or Mitar given the fact

24     that these things happened 20 kilometres or so away from the place where

25     I was.  How could I have a said anything about it?  Or perhaps I

Page 579

 1     misunderstood the question.

 2        Q.   Well, actually isn't it true that in your January 30, 2000

 3     statement you simply said, "I also heard rumours that Milan Lukic and

 4     Mitar Vasiljevic committed a lot of atrocities in the area"?

 5        A.   Yeah, well, that's all hearsay, but I'm not a -- I'm not an

 6     eyewitness.  I never saw anything with my own eyes.  I only heard stories

 7     from many people.

 8        Q.   But you knew Mr. Mitar Vasiljevic before and after this occurred,

 9     did you not?

10        A.   I knew Mitar.  We were good friends and buddies.  His wife worked

11     in the same company where I worked.

12        Q.   And accordingly you knew his kum Milan Lukic?

13        A.   I didn't know Milan so well.  I knew Sredoje much better.  He was

14     a police officer in Visegrad, and I was on good terms with him.

15        Q.   And in fact in your interview with the Prosecution just the other

16     day, you indicated that these accused were part of a greater system, a

17     larger political situation at the time.

18        A.   I only know that Sredoje was a police officer before the war and

19     at the very beginning of the war.  I don't know about Milan.  He wasn't

20     in Visegrad.  He worked somewhere in Serbia.  I rarely saw him.

21        Q.   And he was the younger cousin of Sredoje?

22        A.   Yes.  I worked near their place of residence in a shop, and I

23     knew Sredoje's parents well.  We were friends.

24        Q.   And as part of the rumours, you never heard that Milan Lukic was

25     in a position of authority over anybody?

Page 580

 1        A.   It is difficult for me to say that.  I heard lots of stories, but

 2     it isn't from my immediate experience.  And if I may say about Sredoje, I

 3     only heard good things.

 4        Q.   And would it be fair to say that Sredoje would not take orders

 5     from his younger cousin who was probably 23 years old at the time in

 6     1992?

 7             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Objection.  This is speculation.  The witness has

 8     said that he barely knew either one of them.

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  Move on to another question.

10             MR. ALARID:

11        Q.   And in terms of hearing only good things, you never heard that he

12     was given orders by Milan to do anything?

13        A.   I did hear that he was afraid of Milan, that Milan was in charge

14     of everything, and Sredoje was merely a policeman, and he probably only

15     executed orders, the orders given to him by his superiors.  I remember

16     when he took in a neighbour of his, a Muradif Kalic [phoen], a Muslim,

17     and he brought him in at the beginning of the war.  He probably wanted

18     advice.  I don't know exactly.  Took him to Prelovo.  That's where the

19     command of the Uzice Corps was.  And he took him to a Granap, to Blace,

20     and he took him to the neighbouring village to a guy who was a Vojvoda in

21     the war of 1941 and had done a lot of bad things in the surrounding

22     villages, and he -- that man was taken there to be tested, and he said,

23     "I brought to you this Muslim for you to judge him.  You are older than

24     the commander in Prelovo."  He possibly would have been convicted and

25     killed, and the -- this name of -- this man by the name of Bozo Ivanovic

Page 581

 1     was then to judge him.  And there was another man from Serbia there.  So

 2     old Bozo then told him --

 3             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you.  Thank you.

 4             Next question, Mr. Alarid.

 5             MR. ALARID:

 6        Q.   And so who in fact though was the main power structure in place

 7     by the SDS in Visegrad at the time of the war?

 8        A.   I haven't the slightest idea.  Around one month before the war I

 9     could not go to the town.  I was working in one shop, and I passed there

10     two times.  There were barricades that would be erected at night.  So I

11     just passed through an acacia tree patch.  When I went into the town I

12     went on a little truck.  I didn't go there for a month.  I stayed at

13     home.  After a certain point one couldn't go into town any more, so I

14     don't know who was there and what happened there.

15        Q.   Do you know who Savovic is?

16        A.   I knew him, but I don't know who he is or what he was and what

17     his responsibility was.

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please be asked to speak into

19     the microphone.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Witness, please move closer to the microphone.

21             Would the usher please assist him.

22             MR. ALARID:

23        Q.   Did you know of the police commander Perisic?

24        A.   No, just by hearing.  I didn't know him personally.

25        Q.   And I'm sorry, he was the chief; is that correct?

Page 582

 1        A.   I don't know.  I don't know that.

 2        Q.   Would it be fair to say that if would have taken hundreds of

 3     responsible people for the thousands of Muslims that died?

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I don't understand the question, Mr. Alarid.

 5             MR. ALARID:  Your Honour, in the Vasiljevic case, and maybe I'm

 6     just making a point, he indicated that he was embarrassed that he was

 7     here for Vasiljevic based on the fact that several thousand people had

 8     died and he was the only one being held responsible, and so I guess I was

 9     just making that point, Your Honour, but it is part of the earlier

10     record.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, certainly.  Certainly it

12     would have taken -- I can't say several hundred, hundreds.  Maybe just 20

13     or 50 people responsible, because a couple of could not have inflicted

14     this much evil on that municipality and on the scattered villages, so ...

15             MR. ALARID:  I have no further questions.

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you.  Any questions, Mr. Dieckmann.

17             MR. DIECKMANN:  Thank you, Your Honours.

18                           Cross-examination by Mr. Dieckmann:

19        Q.   Good morning, sir.

20        A.   Good morning.

21        Q.   My name is Jens Dieckmann, and I'm Defence co-counsel for

22     Mr. Sredoje Lukic, and I have some questions for you.

23        A.   Yes, please.

24        Q.   As far as I have understood you correctly, you know

25     Sredoje Lukic, and you know him as a policeman from Visegrad, an ordinary

Page 583

 1     policeman of lower rank, and you know his parents as well.  You know him

 2     also as a family man, as the father of two small children at this time?

 3             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Dieckmann, that's so many questions.  Just

 4     put them one --

 5             MR. DIECKMANN:  Sorry.  It was just to sum it up.

 6        Q.   My question was if he knows he is married and has two small

 7     children at this time.

 8        A.   Yes, I know that he was married, but as to how many children he

 9     had, I don't know that.

10        Q.   Thank you.  You said that Sredoje Lukic was afraid of

11     Milan Lukic; true?

12        A.   Well, by worth of mouth, yes, he was.  People said so.

13        Q.   Could you give us the reasons why you think that he was afraid of

14     Milan Lukic?

15        A.   This was this gentleman Music Safet.  We were sitting in cafe in

16     Sarajevo and we were, you know, talking, and he told me that he had been

17     detained up there in the Visegrad spa, in the Visegradska Banja, and that

18     he came in a Volkswagen vehicle with another policeman, I guess his name

19     was Niko, this policeman and there were more detainees there.  And then

20     this Safet, I said Safet, yes it was Safet, and then Sredoje went into

21     the cellar of that room where a couple of people were detained, and he

22     took out this Safet and his brother.  The last name of both of them is

23     Music.  So he put them in his car and he took them home.  That, in other

24     words, was a humane gesture on his part.

25             And as for what I started talking about, Muradif, this neighbour

Page 584

 1     of mine, he also told him that he would not kill him, that he should be

 2     afraid but that he had to justify his actions to this other guy, and he

 3     said, "I'm just going to shoot some shots into the air and you go down

 4     there and go to your people in Zepa," and that's the way it actually

 5     happened.  He told him, "Halt, halt," and then he shot a few shots in the

 6     air, and then he ran away and he panted, and that's how it was.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. VG-47, on the 12th of August, 2008, you have had

 8     a meeting with two persons of the Prosecutor.  Is it true?

 9        A.   Could you kindly repeat the question?  I wasn't actually

10     listening.  12th of August and --

11        Q.   On the 12th of August, 2008, you have had a meeting with two

12     persons of the Prosecutor.  Is it true?

13        A.   Yes.  Yes, it is.

14        Q.   And the reason of this meeting was to clarify your prior

15     statements to the ICTY and in the Vasiljevic case; true?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And during this meeting you stated that you would like to make a

18     few comments in defence of Sredoje Lukic; is that correct?

19        A.   This is exactly what I just told you.

20        Q.   And this statement you made by your free will and your own

21     motivation; correct?

22        A.   Yes.  I was glad that he acted in that way towards his next door

23     neighbours, for had he taken him to Prelovo, he certainly would not have

24     returned alive.

25        Q.   Thank you.  And in this meeting you expressed your opinion that

Page 585

 1     Sredoje Lukic should not be prosecuted, didn't you?

 2        A.   All I know is this:  I don't know why Sredoje should have allowed

 3     himself for things to have come to this.  If he had done something, he

 4     should be -- he should actually be held to account, if he is to blame for

 5     something.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  And, VG-47, from your personal experience with

 7     Sredoje Lukic, do you agree with me that he's a friendly person, a person

 8     of a good character and a good person?  Would you agree with me?

 9        A.   I agree with you in respect of the period in which we knew each

10     other up to the war.  After that, I can't say.

11        Q.   Thank you very much.

12             MR. DIECKMANN:  No further questions.

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Any re-examination?

14             MS. FRIEDMAN:  No, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Witness, that concludes your testimony.  We

16     thank you for giving it.  You may now leave.

17             We are going to take a break.  Half an hour.

18                           --- Recess taken at 12.10 p.m.

19                           --- On resuming at 12.42 p.m.

20                           [The witness entered court]

21                           WITNESS:  WITNESS VG-97

22                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

23             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Ms. Sartorio.

24             MS. SARTORIO:  Yes.  I'll be handling this witness, Your Honour,

25     but first I wanted to talk about the protective measures.  It appears

Page 586

 1     from looking at the transcript in the Vasiljevic case a colloquy between

 2     Judge Hunt and Mr. Groome that Judge Hunt said that I'm assured with

 3     private session there would be no sound and there is never any camera on

 4     the witness so that would probably be sufficient for you.  And Mr. Groome

 5     said yes, Your Honour.  And then Judge Hunt went on to say we can proceed

 6     and the witness can feel safe that he cannot be seen and he cannot be

 7     heard.

 8             I think he testified in private session is what I gather from

 9     this, but I believe that face distortion and facial -- and voice

10     distortion would be sufficient for this witness.

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, we'll grant the facial and voice

13     distortion.  I understand it will take 15 minutes to set up whatever is

14     necessary.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Well, we'll adjourn and return in 15 minutes.

17                           --- Break taken at 12.45 p.m.

18                           --- On resuming at 1.07 p.m.

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Let the witness make the declaration.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

21     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  You may begin, Ms. Sartorio.

23             MS. SARTORIO:  Thank you, Your Honour.

24             May the usher show the witness a pseudonym sheet, please.

25                           Examination by Ms. Sartorio:

Page 587

 1        Q.   Sir, I've asked the court usher to show you what's called a

 2     pseudonym sheet and ask is that your name next to the reference to VG-97?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And that your date of birth on that sheet?

 5        A.   No, it is not.

 6        Q.   Can you -- can we correct the date of birth?  Could you write in

 7     your correct date of birth, please.

 8        A.   [Marks]

 9        Q.   And would you also sign that sheet, sir.

10        A.   [Marks]

11             MS. SARTORIO:  Your Honour, the Prosecution tenders the pseudonym

12     sheet as an exhibit.

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  It's admitted.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  That's Exhibit P27 under seal, Your Honours.

15             MS. SARTORIO:

16        Q.   Now, sir, the Chamber has ordered certain protective measures

17     with respect to your testimony as we discussed.  You will have a voice

18     and an image distortion so that persons cannot recognise your face or

19     your voice.  So I will be referring to you, and everyone will be

20     referring to as either sir or VG-97.  That is your pseudonym in this --

21     for your testimony.

22             Sir, in the spring of 1992, in which municipality did you live?

23        A.   In Visegrad municipality.

24        Q.   And did you live in a particular section of Visegrad?

25        A.   Yes.  In a place called Kosovo Polje.

Page 588

 1        Q.   And what is your ethnicity, sir?

 2        A.   Bosniak.

 3        Q.   Now, did you provide a statement to ICTY investigators in March

 4     of 2001?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And when you gave this statement it was originally typed in

 7     English, and was it read back to you in the Bosnian language?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And did you then sign the English version of this statement?

10        A.   I think that I signed both versions.

11        Q.   Well, since coming to The Hague have you had an opportunity to

12     review your statement in your Bosnian language?

13        A.   Yes.

14             MS. SARTORIO:  Your Honour, I would like the statement to be

15     brought up on the screen because there's a few corrections to be made, if

16     possible.  It was admitted -- it was allowed yesterday to be added to our

17     exhibit list, so I don't have a 65 ter number.  Would the ERN be

18     sufficient?  The English is 02021904 to 190 -- 1910, and the -- in the

19     Bosnian --

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Cepic.

21             MR. CEPIC:  Your Honour, with your leave, I'm a little bit

22     confused.  Do we have a 65 ter number for this statement and is it on the

23     list of 65 ter?  I'm a little bit confused, so that's --

24             MS. SARTORIO:  Your Honour, it was -- it was admitted orally by

25     Your Honour yesterday.  He's one of the witness as testifying this week

Page 589

 1     whose 92 ter statement be added to the list in our previous motion.

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  Are they trying to find it?  I think the

 3     court deputy is trying to find the document.

 4             MS. SARTORIO:  The ERN doesn't work?  Okay.  Sorry.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  It's there now.

 6             MS. SARTORIO:  Thank you.  May we go to page 3 in each of the

 7     English and the B/C/S version.

 8        Q.   Now, unfortunately the paragraphs are not numbered, but it is the

 9     third paragraph down from the top, and, sir, I asked you this question in

10     proofing.  The word in the English statement says "Revengers" and you

11     said this is not the correct word.  I'd like you to look at your

12     statement in B/C/S and tell me if the word "Revengers "is there or if

13     it's another word.

14        A.   The word is okay.

15        Q.   Okay.  The third paragraph down in the B/C/S, the second sentence

16     refers to a word "Osvetnici."  What is that word?

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  It's not clear to me what you're trying to

18     correct in relation to the word "Revengers."  Is that the correct word?

19             MS. SARTORIO:

20        Q.   Sir, did you mean to say "Revengers" when you gave this

21     statement?  Revengers?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   I'll withdraw that correction.  Could we go to page 4, please.

24     Okay.  The fourth paragraph down, the third line and the fourth line in

25     the English there's the worth faith, f-a-i-t-h.  Faith.  Is that the word

Page 590

 1     that you wanted to use in that sentence, sir?

 2        A.   I don't another where you're referring to.

 3        Q.   Could you look at the Bosnian version of your statement where it

 4     starts, "With many times during the month of June 1992 ..."  Could you

 5     read that sentence to us, what the first half of that paragraph says?

 6        A.    "Often during June 1992, I would see Milan Lukic,

 7     Mitar Vasiljevic and Sredoje Lukic taking people away."

 8        Q.   Please continue.

 9        A.   The "The first time this was around the 15th of June when

10     Milan Lukic with a red pass at took away Mujo Kurspahic and nobody knows

11     to this day, I apologise, this was around the 15th of June when

12     Milan Lukic took away you Mujo Kurspahic with his red Passat.  No one

13     knows to this day what happened to Mujo.  The second time Milan Lukic

14     took away Nedzad Ribac in Nedzad's car.

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  That's beyond what the Prosecutor wants.

16             MS. SARTORIO:

17        Q.   Yes.  I wanted to correct the English version of the statement on

18     the record.  You didn't refer in those statements anything having to do

19     with faith, did you?

20        A.   What faith are you referring to?  I'm not clear on that?  Whose

21     faith?

22        Q.   I think we discussed this yesterday.  In the English translation

23     the word "faith" shows up and I asked you if that's what you said.  Did

24     you use the word "faith" when you gave the statement to the ICTY

25     investigator?

Page 591

 1        A.   You have to show me the exact part of the statement where this

 2     faith is referred to and I will immediately give you an answer.

 3        Q.   Well, it's only in the English version, sir, and I don't -- can

 4     you read English?

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   My question just -- forget about the statement.  Did you ever

 7     mention -- discuss with the ICTY investigator anything to do with faith,

 8     as in such as religious faith or faith in something?  Did you discuss

 9     that in this ICTY statement?

10        A.   I did discuss it when I was giving my personals to them.  I said

11     that my -- I was of the Muslim or Bosniak or Islamic faith.

12        Q.   Okay.  Thank you, sir.  When you reviewed your statement in the

13     Bosnian language is everything contained in this statement truthful and

14     accurate to the best of your knowledge with regard to the events that you

15     witnessed and experienced in 1992?

16        A.   Yes, it is.

17        Q.   And if I were to ask you the same questions that were put to you

18     by the investigator in 2001, would your answers be the same as those that

19     you provided in 2001?

20        A.   Yes, they would.

21             MS. SARTORIO:  Your Honour, we ask that the statement be admitted

22     in evidence, please.

23             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, admit it.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P28 under seal, Your Honours.

25             MS. SARTORIO:  Your Honours, the Prosecution does not seek to

Page 592

 1     admit his prior testimony in the Vasiljevic case and withdraws our motion

 2     to seek to admit that testimony, and I will just proceed with a short

 3     examination if I may.

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 5             MS. SARTORIO:

 6        Q.   Sir, in 1992 did you know a person by the name of Milan Lukic?

 7        A.   Yes, I did.

 8        Q.   And how did you know him?  Was it from school or other

 9     associations?

10        A.   I knew Mr. Milan Lukic already as a boy when I went to school.

11     Mr. Milan Lukic went to the Hamid Besirevic secondary school centre, and

12     I attended primary school; but I went every day to the new hotel taking

13     milk there because we catered to the hotels in Visegrad, and I would see

14     him in the street with other lads from Zupa.

15        Q.   How often would you see him at this time in your life?

16        A.   Almost every day when I used to go to take that milk there.  And

17     I went downtown every day, so I wasn't really interested in counting how

18     many times I would see him or saw him, but I do know him and I know that

19     he socialised with a certain Slavko Vujinovic, who I knew very well.

20        Q.   Now, after the war started in 1992, did you see Mr. Lukic then as

21     well?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Had any period of time passed between the time the war started

24     and the time you had seen him in school?

25        A.   Yes.  Some seven or eight years elapsed.

Page 593

 1        Q.   When you saw Milan Lukic in 1992 after the war started, did you

 2     recognise him as the same person you had seen earlier as you described in

 3     your testimony?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And, sir, in 1992 did you know any other person by the name of

 6     Milan Lukic or anyone who called himself Milan Lukic other than this

 7     person you've identified?

 8        A.   I did not know any other person by the name of Milan Lukic, nor

 9     was there any other person with the name of Milan Lukic.

10        Q.   Now, sir, in 1992 did you also known a person by the name of

11     Sredoje Lukic?

12        A.   Yes, I did know Mr. Sredoje Lukic.  I knew him for at least ten

13     years, because the gentleman worked at the police station in Visegrad.

14        Q.   And how often would you see Sredoje Lukic before the war started

15     in 1992?

16        A.   Well, I always saw him in town.  He would be there.  He would be

17     present in the town of Visegrad, and he drove a red Moskvitch Aleko, a

18     Russian-make vehicle.

19        Q.   Now, sir, I'd like you to look around the courtroom very

20     carefully and then tell us whether you recognise anyone in this courtroom

21     other than myself and, if so, whom do you recognise?

22        A.   Yes, I do.  To my left-hand side on the right-hand side is

23     Mr. Sredoje Lukic.  To the right-hand side of Sredoje Lukic is

24     Mr. Milan Lukic.

25             MS. SARTORIO:  May the record reflect, Your Honour, that this

Page 594

 1     witness has identified the accused.

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 3             MS. SARTORIO:

 4        Q.   Now, sir, as you heard a few moments ago your statement has been

 5     admitted into evidence so I'm not going to ask you many very detailed

 6     questions since the Judges have your statement and they have read it, and

 7     they can read everything that you have to say but I'm going to ask you a

 8     couple of questions about the events that happened in 1992.

 9             Did you ever see Milan Lukic driving a vehicle?

10        A.   Yes, I did.  I often saw him.

11        Q.   And could you please describe the vehicle which -- in which he

12     was driving?

13        A.   Mr. Milan Lukic drove a red Passat and Zastava van which was also

14     red.

15        Q.   And how often would you see him driving the red Passat?

16        A.   Quite often.  He frequently passed through Kosovo Polje in the

17     direction of Sase from Visegrad or vice versa.

18        Q.   And you lived in the village of Kosovo Polje.  Was this on the

19     direct route between Sase and Visegrad?

20        A.   Yes, it was.  The road actually divides the settlement of

21     Kosovo Polje.  On the right-hand side there are the Orthodox Serbs, and

22     on the left side of the road are the Bosniak Muslims.

23        Q.   And does this road lead to any other -- any other places that you

24     mentioned in your statement?

25        A.   The road leads towards Zupa, and in Sase there is a right-hand

Page 595

 1     turn towards Visegradska Banja, the Visegrad spa.

 2        Q.   Now, did you ever see anyone else driving the red Passat?  And

 3     I'm talking about driving, not being a passenger.

 4        A.   In the course of 1992 or before 1992?

 5        Q.   In June of 1992.

 6        A.   I saw nobody else drive that Passat.

 7        Q.   Did you see other passengers in the vehicle with Milan Lukic when

 8     he was driving the red Passat?

 9        A.   Frequently there would be -- there would be two or three men, and

10     sometimes the gentleman went on his own or with just one co-passenger in

11     the vehicle.

12        Q.   Would you see Sredoje Lukic riding in the car with Milan?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Now, in your statement you describe witnessing a number of crimes

15     committed by Milan and Sredoje Lukic; is that correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Can you tell the Chamber on approximately how many occasions you

18     witnessed crimes being committed by one or both of these gentlemen where

19     the red Passat was present at the scene of the crime?

20        A.   On at least three occasions.

21        Q.   Sir, do you know a man by the name of Stanko Pecikoza?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And how did you know him?

24        A.   Yes, I knew Mr. Stanko Pecikoza very well.  He was very

25     hospitable and he had his private sawmill.  He often helped us at

Page 596

 1     Kosovo Polje during the war.  On one occasion after incidents had become

 2     more frequent and we couldn't hide out there any longer, my father had

 3     asked Stanko Pecikoza to take me up with him at the sawmill for me to be

 4     safer, because up there they didn't touch anyone, although the workers at

 5     the sawmill were Muslims, whereas down -- down there people would be

 6     attacked, and Stanko agreed.

 7             On the 10th of June, with two neighbours I went to

 8     Stanko Pecikoza's sawmill to help myself and help out with the work there

 9     too.  And we were about a dozen, Serbs and Muslims alike.  And at that

10     moment I heard Stanko's wife crying out in mourning.  From the direction

11     of the road towards the sawmill we heard a siren, and the woman cried out

12     and -- saying, "Alas, there comes Micko."  And when we all -- nobody said

13     a word, and Mr. Lukic drove up in his red Passat.

14             A soldier stepped out from the Passat.  He was providing security

15     for Mr. Lukic.  Mr. Lukic never got out of the car.  He opened the door

16     and greeted everybody.

17        Q.   Okay.  May I stop you?  Sorry.  When you say "Micko," who are you

18     referring to?

19        A.   I mean Milan.

20        Q.   Now, did Milan Lukic say anything to you at this time?

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Is Milan also called Micko?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard -- sorry.  Your Honours, I

23     heard the lady saying these words.

24             MS. SARTORIO:  I'm not sure which lady --

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Which lady?  What lady?

Page 597

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I spoke about the events, I

 2     said that Stanko's wife cried out and said, "Alas, there comes Micko."

 3             JUDGE ROBINSON:  And who is Micko?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Milan Lukic.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 6             MS. SARTORIO:

 7        Q.   Can you tell us if you know what the ethnicity of Mr. Pecikoza

 8     was?

 9        A.   Mr. Pecikoza was a Serb of Orthodox nationality.

10        Q.   Now, I believe I'll go back to my previous question whether

11     Milan Lukic said anything to you when he was in the car and he pulled up

12     to Stanko Pecikoza's house at that time.

13        A.   Yes.  He said the following words:  He first said "pomoz bog,

14     braco Srbi," which means God may help you fellow Serbs, and "merhaba,"

15     Turks, and then he said, "Mr. Stanko, do these Turks obey you?"  Upon

16     which Stanko replied, "Mind your own business," and that there was no

17     need for him to come to his yard and that all these people were decent,

18     honourable people who had done no harm to anyone.  Mr. Lukic replied,

19     "Yes, they're good.  They're all right, but they will go to Bajina Basta

20     nonetheless," by which he meant he would -- that he would throw us all

21     into the lake and that we would end up at Bajina Basta.

22        Q.   And where is Bajina Basta?

23        A.   Bajina Basta is downstream from Visegrad, and there's also a

24     hydro power plant on the Drina River by the same name some 40 kilometres

25     from Visegrad.

Page 598

 1        Q.   Is that the end of the river?

 2        A.   No.  That is the spot where a hydro power plant dam was made on

 3     the Drina River which created an artificial lake of Bajina Basta where --

 4     where our bodies would end up.

 5        Q.   Do you know where Mr. Pecikoza is today?

 6        A.   Mr. Pecikoza is not alive anymore.  Unfortunately he was killed

 7     on the 19th of June, 1992.  I don't know who killed him.

 8             MS. SARTORIO:  I have no further questions, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you.  Mr. Alarid.

10             MR. ALARID:  Your Honour, are we --

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone.

12             MR. ALARID:  Your Honour, are we recessing at 1.45.

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  1.45.

14             MR. ALARID:  To not breaking continuity, Your Honour, would you

15     object to taking a recess and just beginning fresh tomorrow?  I can only

16     ask a few questions in five minutes, of course.

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Ask them.  Ask them.

18             MR. ALARID:  Okay.

19                           Cross-examination by Mr. Alarid:

20        Q.   Mr. 97, in 1992 how old were you?

21        A.   I was 21 and a half years old.

22        Q.   And you stated on direct examination that you were three years

23     younger than Milan Lukic?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And when you were in primary school he was in secondary school?

Page 599

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   So you never played with him directly as a child?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   Isn't it true that as a young boy Milan Lukic had Muslim friends?

 5        A.   He would have had to have Muslim friends just the same as I had

 6     Serbian -- Serb friends, because it was a mixed surrounding, a mixed

 7     environment.

 8        Q.   Now, in your statement of 2001, was that the first time you'd

 9     ever given an official statement in an investigation related to the

10     tragedy in Bosnia?

11        A.   Yes, to an international tribunal.

12        Q.   Is that to say that you'd given other statements before that

13     date?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   To whom have you given statements?

16        A.   When we crossed the Drina and came to the left bank in June 1992.

17     There were people there who asked us about what had happened, and a

18     teacher by the name of Sabit Hota [phoen] had some kind of register of

19     events, and he put down our statements.

20        Q.   And you gave statements as to the alleged crimes in Visegrad?

21        A.   I gave statements about what I had experienced at Kosovo Polje

22     from April to the 19th of June, 1992.

23        Q.   But you remained in the area until mid-July of 1992?

24        A.   I spent part of the time at the village of Hamzici until mid-July

25     1992, because due to the heavy shelling the houses we lived in were badly

Page 600

 1     damaged and we were exposed to artillery and tank fire.  So we had to

 2     withdraw to another village, Crni Vrh.

 3        Q.   Now, in your statement of 2001 you indicated that early on you

 4     saw Dragan Tomic in a jeep near Stanko Pecikoza's home.

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And you indicated in your statement that you did not dare stop

 7     them.  Why not?

 8        A.   They were armed, and they were moving toward Homar where the

 9     command of the Territorial Defence of the Serbian community was.  I

10     didn't dare stop them.

11        Q.   Isn't it true that Tomic was the commander of the police?

12        A.   I'm not sure whether he was commander, but I'm sure that he was

13     in a high-ranking position in the police force.

14        Q.   Do you know who Perisic was as chief of police?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   What was your -- what was your understanding of Perisic's role in

17     the community?

18        A.   I knew Mr. Risto Perisic as the teacher who taught me

19     Serbo-Croatian at the secondary school centre.  When I -- at the time

20     when I went to school, he was active in the volleyball club by the name

21     of Drina.  He played a major role in the organisation of the SDS and the

22     establishment of the Serbian municipality of Visegrad.

23             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Alarid, we have to stop there for today.

24     We'll resume tomorrow morning.

25             MR. ALARID:  Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 601

 1                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.50 p.m.

 2                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 27th day of

 3                           August, 2008, at 8.50 a.m.