Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 691

 1                           Thursday, 28 August 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 8.57 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Let the witness be brought in.

 6                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 7             MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Ossogo, you have some matters to raise.

 9             MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, just a small

10     question.  I already spoke to our colleagues from the Defence concerning

11     Mr. Alarid.  It's a motion which we filed on the 18th of August to admit

12     certain documents and we still don't have a decision on this motion and

13     in this motion there was a document to help both the Chamber and the

14     Defence to the proposal to go and see the place.  We had announced that

15     during the -- this paper we call 360 degrees - waiting for the decision

16     on this motion I would like to note if I can use some pictures of this

17     programme.  They have been taken at Bikavac and the witness will tell us

18     exactly where it was.  Therefore, I spoke to my colleagues of the Defence

19     and they didn't oppose this.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Very well.

21             I see no objection to your using it.

22             MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

23             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Don't call the witness yet.

24                           [Trial Chamber confers]

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Private session.

Page 692

 1                           [Private session]

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14                           [Open session]

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Let the witness be called.

17                           [The witness entered court]

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Please continue, Mr. Ossogo.

19                           WITNESS:  WITNESS VG-115 [Resumed]

20                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

21                           Examination by Mr. Ossogo: [Continued]

22        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness VG-115.

23        A.   Good morning.

24        Q.   Did you sleep well?

25        A.   I slept well for a couple of hours.  Thank you.

Page 693

 1        Q.   Very well.  So I see you will be up to answering the last

 2     questions I have to ask you in this case.  I'd like to come back on the

 3     events concerning the torching which took place in the Pionirska Street

 4     and for this, Mr. President, could we go into private session because of

 5     the information which shouldn't be made public?

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, private session.

 7        [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Chamber]

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 694

 1     where you observed the flames, fire.

 2        A.   [Marks]

 3        Q.   Then could you put an arrow, mark an arrow, on the

 4     Pionirska Street, a few centimetres, perhaps 5 centimetres, to show

 5     Pionirska Street.  If you remember --

 6        A.   [Marks]

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Could you indicate at what place you saw the smoke.

 8     Where was the smoke coming out from?  If you don't remember, never mind.

 9        A.   [Marks]

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Mr. President, could this be

12     admitted for the Prosecution?

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this is admitted as P31,

15     Exhibit P31.

16             JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, perhaps

17     it would be useful to know what was the house which was torched.  Maybe

18     you could ask the witness what was the house which was torched.  Thank

19     you.

20             MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

21        Q.   Witness VG-115, could you indicate, in case you know, which was

22     the house which was torched and where you saw all the smoke coming from

23     and the fire and the flames which you saw.

24        A.   On the screen or on the photograph?

25        Q.   On the photograph, please.

Page 695

 1        A.   [Marks]

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Now, Mr. President, we shall

 4     continue our questions about the incident in Pionirska Street.

 5        Q.   Witness VG-115, the next day after the fire took place in the

 6     Pionirska Street, did Milan Lukic visit you, (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9        Q.   What was his appearance?  How was he dressed?

10        A.   Milan wore a camouflage uniform; he was armed, as always; and he

11     had a bandaged hand, one of his hands had a bandage.

12        Q.   Do you remember which hand had this bandage?

13        A.   I do not remember.  Certainly it was only one hand.  I'm sorry,

14     but I can't remember which.

15        Q.   Right.  Did he explain to anybody why he was wearing this

16     bandage?

17        A.   Well, normally people asked him, What's that with your hand?  And

18     Milan answered, I injured my hand last night.

19        Q.   When you say "people," do you remember who he spoke to in the

20     company?

21        A.   Everybody there knew Milan, both the men and the women.  I knew

22     him personally also but I never asked him about his hand, so I could not

23     tell the Court what had happened to his hand but he said himself that he

24     had injured it on the previous night.

25        Q.   Thank you very much.

Page 696

 1             Witness VG-115, we shall now speak of another incident, an

 2     incident which happened before that.  In 1992, I would like to ask you if

 3     you remember that Milan's group (redacted) and pushed out

 4     Muslims, asked Muslims to quit --

 5             MR. ALARID:  Your Honours, I would object that this is leading.

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  You cannot lead on matters of this kind.  It is

 7     leading.  Reformulate.

 8             MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Did it happen in 1992 that Milan Lukic (redacted)

10             MR. ALARID:  Objection, leading.

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I'll allow that.  He can ask whether Milan Lukic

12     (redacted)

13             What he did, just ask what he did when he came there.

14             Give the answer first.  Witness, did Milan Lukic (redacted)

15     (redacted)

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Milan Lukic (redacted)

17     often, but one day, as the gentleman mentioned in his question, they were

18     making plans.  (redacted) I saw

19     a convoy of cars and people (redacted) and they wanted to

20     take away (redacted)  There were

21     women and men alike.  (redacted)

22     (redacted) and I was able to warn many people to

23     hide anywhere, that something bad was going on, and I felt that they

24     would be taken away (redacted)

25     (redacted)

Page 697

 1     (redacted)  But Milan Lukic was able to find

 2     three (redacted) and take them away.  (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you.  Thank you.

 6             You must take over from here, Mr. Ossogo.

 7             MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 8        Q.   When Mr. Milan Lukic arrived with his group, did he speak to you

 9     or did one of the members of his group speak to you?

10        A.   It was a long time ago and I don't remember well, but somebody

11     (redacted) and shouted and asked questions about where the

12     other people were.  It's -- they seemed to suspect me, but it was my duty

13     to protect those people.  They were not armed and they -- without any

14     protection.  They were simply doing their jobs.  They were not active in

15     politics.  And they needed shelter, they needed to be saved, (redacted)

16     (redacted)

17             When they were taken to the cars and driven away, soon after that

18     we heard shots and I suspected that they were killed on the new bridge

19     over the Drina, the newly built bridge.  It was at day-time,

20     unfortunately, they never even respected the curfew.  They didn't care

21     whether it was night or day, whether people would see or hear them or

22     not.  They would go about their business at any time.  (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 698

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)  I soon understood that in the town of

 6     Visegrad among the Muslim population much injustice had been done to

 7     them.  They were people who did not take part in the war.  They were

 8     civilians, unprotected people, elderly people, women, girls, children.

 9     The Lukics did not fight for their territory, the Serbian republic.  They

10     were making massacres, killing innocent population.  In June, July,

11     August, after that there was no single Muslim left in Visegrad, no

12     children, no elderly people.  I'm sorry, I'm sitting here without being

13     able to prove that with photographs.  There were shootings, executions,

14     every day on the Drina after 3.00 in the afternoon.  Over a hundred men

15     from the Varda company from town, from the surrounding villages, on a

16     daily basis.  The Drina was all foamy with blood --

17        Q.   I have to stop you there.  Thank you very much, Witness VG-115.

18     I have to stop you there.  We will continue the examination on one

19     specific aspect which you observed concerning the activities of

20     Milan Lukic and his cousin, that was the torching at Bikavac.  Was there

21     a fire in the area of Bikavac to your knowledge and what year was that?

22        A.   That also happened in late June 1992, after the incident in

23     Pionirska Street, after the great massacre in the house of Adem Omeragic

24    and there was a huge massacre in Bikavac in the house of Meho Aljic, (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 699

 1        Q.   Could you describe what you observed in this incident?

 2        A.   Yes, I can.  It was in the afternoon.  I was -- I cared much

 3     about my family house in which I was left alone.  And I cared a lot about

 4     the old married couple, the Subasics (redacted)

 5     Pasan and Aisa Subasic.  Their houses were (redacted) nearby in Bikavac. 

 6     (redacted)  Those two --

 7     that elderly couple were left alone.  They were over 80 years of age and

 8     I went to see them often to be -- to bring them some food because you

 9     couldn't buy anything.  All the shops were closed, you couldn't go to any

10     shop and buy anything.  And on that day I went to my house which had been

11     newly furbished to -- for living in.  (redacted)

12     (redacted)  I went to my house to fetch some coffee,

13     sugar and washing powder to take them to that elderly couple to help

14     them.  Before that, I met them and they told me how they were hiding

15     because they were living in a newly built building.  There was also a

16     wartime shelter there, and they were saying, We've been hiding for days

17     in your house with many neighbours from the neighbourhood.

18             Upon returning from my house I saw a convoy of vehicles.  They

19     couldn't reach the houses because the road was, or rather, the street was

20     very narrow, not wide enough for cars to pass.  I recognised

21     Milan Lukic's car and the cars of other members of his groups.  They had

22     taken those cars from Muslims.  There were many cars and many people, and

23     there were many people from Gostilja who I recognised and they were all

24     being taken to the house of Meho Aljic, (redacted)

25     (redacted)  And then I went to a small orchard, on

Page 700

 1     the right-hand side there were plum trees, small plum trees.

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13             Now, Mr. Ossogo, Mr. Ossogo.

14             MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  We have different approaches to how witnesses

16     are to be led.  I don't particularly favour the narrative approach, where

17     a witness goes on and on and on and on.  I'd much rather the approach

18     where counsel asks the witness a question, the witness answers shortly,

19     and then another question is asked.  I also believe that in this case

20     that approach would have an additional advantage in relation to a witness

21     who is obviously distraught.

22             MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. President.

23     In fact, I wanted to interrupt the witness, but there can be a

24     consequence which is that the logic of the ideas -- the witness is indeed

25     traumatised, as you may have noticed more than once, and several times

Page 701

 1     since she arrived here we have been in private session and outside this

 2     chamber we noticed that the witness was distressed and maybe this could

 3     have consequences on her health and have a problem about what she wants

 4     to say.  But I agree with you that this approach -- another approach

 5     would be better to have the proper answers.

 6             Now the narrative is finished, I could ask questions.

 7        Q.   Thank you, Witness VG-115, for what you've just said.  Could we

 8     come back on one aspect what you observed before we go on.  Could you

 9     indicate to us where you were when the group of Milan Lukic went to the

10     house of Mr. Meho, did you say, Meho Aljic?

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted) from where did you

13     see the arrival of the -- the entry of the group of Milan Lukic as you

14     indicated?

15        A.   They were standing on this very narrow road in front of me.  If

16     you have photographs, I can show you that road.  They were standing in

17     front of me.  There was no way I could bypass them.

18        Q.   You spoke about a photograph.  We are going to come to that.  Did

19     you recognise the members of that group?

20        A.   I could recognise the members of the group because I had come to

21     know them very well (redacted)  Among them there

22     were also citizens of Visegrad.

23        Q.   Could you give their names?

24        A.   I shall do my best to remember them all.  Milan Lukic was there,

25     Sredoje Lukic, so Milan Lukic with his father, Mile; with his brother

Page 702

 1     Gojko Lukic; then Niko Vujicic was there, a policeman in the town of

 2     Visegrad; Veljko Planincic, a police officer in the town of Visegrad who

 3     was called Razinoda; then Radoje Simsic (redacted) an

 4     elderly man was also there; Oliver Krsmanovic who was a haulier from

 5     Visegrad was also there; Caruga from Pljevlja was there, I don't know his

 6     first and last names; then Slobodan Roncevic was there (redacted)

 7     (redacted) he

 8     was a student from Novi Sad who hailed from Montenegro.  Then there was

 9     Mitar whom -- Mitar Vasiljevic, Mitar -- the senior Mitar; then there was

10     Knezevic who didn't have an eye; there was Zoran from the vicinity of

11     Belgrade from Ostruznica; then there was -- whether he was Vasiljevic or

12     Simsic I don't know for sure but I know him well and I can recognise him

13     well.  There are other members of Lukic's group whose names I cannot

14     remember but whom I could recognise.

15        Q.   What did they do after that?  You saw them and what did they do?

16        A.   I went to the right side.  There was a small fence which I could

17     go over to go into a plum orchard.  This path I could take in order to

18     avoid the road.  They were taking the people to Meho Aljic's house.

19     There were people from the village of Gostilja whom I recognised there.

20     (redacted)

21     (redacted)  I don't know

22     what his name was, an elderly man.  They were pulling the door of the

23     garage of Meho Aljic's house and they actually blocked the house door

24     with the garage door, they placed it under the window of the living-room

25     which was facing the road.

Page 703

 1             I could make out very well (redacted) who

 2     entered the house of Meho Aljic among the last people to enter.  Milan

 3     was shouting and yelling at them and these were the last people I

 4     remember --

 5        Q.   I have to interrupt you, Witness VG-115.  I would like to ask

 6     you, at that stage did you see people who were obliged, forced, to go

 7     into this house of Meho Aljic?

 8        A.   Yes, I did see them.

 9        Q.   Could you identify them for the Bench, as far as you can

10     remember.

11        A.   I can recall well.  Do I have to say all the names of this

12     family, of the members of this family right now?

13        Q.   If you could, please.

14     (redacted)

15     It was the Turjacanin family, Djulka Turjacanin; her daughter

16     Zehra Turjacanin --

17        Q.   I have to interrupt you again.  I gave you a sheet of paper

18     yesterday and the second sheet of paper had a pseudonym.  The first name

19     you mentioned is VG-114.

20        A.   Can I proceed?

21        Q.   You may continue.

22        A.   So it is the Turjacanin family.  Djulka Turjacanin; VG-114,

23     Zehra Turjacanin, I'm not quite sure what her married last name is; and a

24     small daughter of Djulka Turjacanin (redacted) and she

25     was mentally challenged, she couldn't think properly and she couldn't

Page 704

 1     speak properly, she was 10 at that time.  I have forgotten the child's

 2     name.  And Zehra Turjacanin also had a small child who was there and this

 3     was the last family to enter the house of Meho Aljic.

 4        Q.   Yes, we'll pause here, VG-114 is Zehra Turjacanin and not Djulka.

 5     Could the transcript please be corrected?

 6             You may continue and give the names of the people which you saw

 7     forced to go into the house of Meho Aljic.

 8        A.   I'm sorry, I did not quite understand the question.  I was

 9     focusing on VG-114 and therefore I didn't quite get to your question.

10     Would you please be so kind as to ask me again.

11        Q.   Yes, certainly --

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cepic.

13             MR. CEPIC:  I apologise, just one technical issue, do we have

14     redaction of the name here because it would be in public, this VG-114

15     is --

16             THE REGISTRAR:  We are still in private session.

17             MR. CEPIC:  Okay, because it is protected witness and we have a

18     full name now in the transcript.

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  We are in private session.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours, we are in private session.

21             MR. CEPIC:  I apologise.

22             MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Yes, Witness VG-115.  I will repeat my question.  Could you

24     please continue and give us the names of the families you knew and who

25     were forced to go into the house of Meho Aljic.  You mentioned the chief

Page 705

 1     of the family, you mentioned VG-114.  So please could you continue and

 2     give us the names of the people you recognised and who were forced into

 3     that house.

 4        A.   I've stated -- no, these were mostly people from Gostilja.  I

 5     have stated the names of the Murtic's family.  These people lived in the

 6     surrounding villages and I couldn't remember their names.  I didn't know

 7     their names, but I did know the Turjacanin family very well (redacted)

 8     (redacted)  So of the Turjacanins there

 9     were four female members of that family and a child, Dzehva Turjacanin's

10     child.

11        Q.   Thank you.  So all these people were forced to enter into Meho's

12     house by the Lukic's group, and then what happened after that?

13        A.   After that while they were pulling this garage door, I suppose

14     that they would be setting the house on fire and that indeed happened.

15     So I took this cross path via this plum orchard to come to the main road.

16     I was descending down towards the town.  I had no more time to drop in on

17     the two elderly people, the elderly couple with the little bag that I was

18     carrying.  The protected witness and these other Turjacanin persons whom

19     I mentioned they all saw me personally as I was entering the orchard

20     which belonged -- the land belonged to Medo Mulahasic.

21        Q.   Do you know Mr. Mulahasic or members of his family?

22        A.   Yes, I knew him very well.

23        Q.   Around this house or next to his house were there other relatives

24     of his that were living there, could you tell us?

25        A.   Medo lived in Medo Mulahasic's house, as well as his wife Sevala,

Page 706

 1     as well as their two daughters, the name of one was Hanka and I forgot

 2     the name of the other daughter.  These girls were married and he also had

 3     two sons who lived in Serbia.  So Medo and Sevala Mulahasic lived alone

 4     because their children had scattered every which way and the elderly

 5     married couple lived alone.  But on that day I did not see Sevala or

 6     Medo Mulahasic.  Later, I saw an incident in town involving

 7     Medo Mulahasic.

 8        Q.   VG-114 [as interpreted], among the people who were forced to

 9     enter Meho Aljic's house was a person that you said that was in that

10     group.  So do you know whether he lived close to Meho's house or can you

11     tell us where he lived exactly?

12        A.   Very near.

13        Q.   I will now give you a map which you asked for, and that way

14     you'll be able to show us on the map where is Meho Aljic's house, where

15     this event occurred, this dramatic event occurred.  (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 707











11  Pages 707-711 redacted. Private session.















Page 712

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9        Q.   Witness VG-115, I would now like to ask you the following.  After

10     these people were forced to enter into Meho's house, Meho Aljic's house,

11     from where you stood and where you were observing things, what exactly

12     did you hear or see afterwards?  You told us about shots; isn't that

13     right?

14        A.   I could see how they were throwing bottles filled with petrol and

15     set afire and I could see them firing bursts of fire toward the window,

16     and they were throwing, very energetically, hand-grenades.  And then I

17     had to go away, I had no time to call on the elderly couple.  I went

18     toward the town centre.  I was walking down the street in Bikavac.  There

19     was much noise, there were explosions, and they were doing the same thing

20     as in Pionirska, but at Bikavac I was able to see it with my own eyes.

21     And I stand behind my statement, I back it up fully.

22        Q.   Thank you.  When you started describing that incident you gave us

23     the name of people who were forced to enter this house.  I would like to

24     ask you whether after this event you ever met these people again.  Do you

25     know what happened to them?

Page 713

 1        A.   Since that event, I haven't met anyone of the Turjacanin family.

 2     I met a man from the Murtic family.  He came to see me and told me more

 3     about that incident.  I had seen his wife and his mother and his uncle.

 4     What the -- I never met anyone from the Turjacanin family again.

 5        Q.   You say that you met a relative of the Murtic family, a man, who

 6     told you about the incident.  What did he say exactly?

 7        A.   He said to me that in the house that belonged to Meho Aljic his

 8     mother, his wife, and his uncle had burned and that he had escaped from

 9     the village of Gostilja, that they didn't find him at his home.  He also

10     told me what he had heard, that there was a surviving witness, a woman

11     from the Turjacanin family.  I'm very glad that she survived that

12     tragedy.

13        Q.   Thank you.  When you say that you are glad she survived, who are

14     you talking about exactly?

15        A.   Am I free to mention her name now so I don't create a mess?  Can

16     I mention the name of this survivor?

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  We are in private session?  Yes, yes, it

18     may be mentioned.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The survivor is Zehra Turjacanin,

20     she was a girl of about 23 then.  I know her very well.  She had long

21     hair and was a pretty girl.  (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 714











11  Pages 714-715 redacted. Private session.















Page 716

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3             MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Witness VG-115, I have a few questions to ask before we are done

 5     with this Bikavac incident.  Earlier you said that Milan Lukic was

 6     yelling, yelling at these people that he had forced into Meho Aljic's

 7     house.  He was yelling, but were you able to make anything of what he was

 8     saying?

 9        A.   He was shouting at them to make them enter the house faster

10     because people resisted, especially the Turjacanin family.

11        Q.   You're saying that he was shouting, was he just screaming or was

12     he uttering words; and if he was uttering any words, do you remember what

13     these words were?

14        A.   No, Milan Lukic never said anything to me.  He was shouting at

15     the people who he wanted to make enter Meho Aljic's house.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Then you say that he threw flammable products into

17     the house as well as hand-grenades.  What were these flammable products,

18     please?

19        A.   Well, to the extent that I could see, they had something like

20     bottles filled with gasoline or some flammable material; and the

21     hand-grenades were like, you know, those small hand-grenades that made a

22     lot of noise.

23        Q.   But were you able to identify who was doing this amongst that

24     group?

25        A.   Well, the members of his group, although Milan was most

Page 717

 1     prominent.  I had very little time.  I didn't dare stay on longer.

 2        Q.   I understand you well, but you are saying that Milan was leading

 3     the group.  I'm sorry that I ask.  Could you tell us exactly what he did.

 4     You said that he was -- he opened the garage, he was yelling at these

 5     people who were forced into that house and who lost their lives in the

 6     house later on, but were you able to see anything else that he did?

 7        A.   Milan was dragging the metal garage door which was put against

 8     the main door of the house.  The garage was actually part of the house.

 9     They leaned that garage door against the door of the house to prevent the

10     people from coming out.  I could see all that from my vantage point.

11        Q.   Thank you.  So he did this to prevent the people from getting out

12     of the house, and it was after that that the hand-grenades were thrown.

13     Was he one of the people throwing the hand-grenades?

14        A.   There was several of them, but Milan was in charge.  He stood out

15     and it was his voice that could be heard most, and I wasn't glad -- it

16     wasn't at all pleasant for me to stand there and witness all that.  I

17     knew what was happening and I couldn't help anyone, it wasn't in my

18     power.

19        Q.   Regarding Sredoje Lukic, could you give us some details as to

20     what he did exactly during this incident.  What exactly did he do?  You

21     told us what Milan Lukic was doing, but could you tell us what Sredoje

22     was doing?

23        A.   Sredoje Lukic also shouted at the people, pushed them around, and

24     helped Milan to drag the metal garage door to the entrance door.  And he

25     was also intimidating the people, so he was -- he wore a Balaclava not to

Page 718

 1     be recognised, because he was a police officer in the town of Visegrad so

 2     everybody knew him.

 3        Q.   You already said that you knew him personally?

 4        A.   I knew Sredoje Lukic personally.  He in time of -- in times of

 5     peace he was a very kind person.

 6        Q.   Then when the war started he changed; is that what you're trying

 7     to say?

 8        A.   When the war began, Sredoje changed a lot.  He was a married man,

 9     a family man, with three children, his wife was Vicenka [phoen].  As far

10     as I know, no family member of his was killed.  He had no reason to

11     behave that way.

12        Q.   Thank you.  All these people you mentioned who were locked up in

13     Meho Aljic's house, were they all civilians?  You said that you knew

14     them.  Were they locals from the village?

15        A.   The people were all civilians.  Nobody was armed or wore any kind

16     of uniform.  They were all regular citizens, civilians.

17        Q.   I would now like to talk about an incident, another incident, the

18     one that has to do with Mr. Gojko Lukic.  You said that it is Lukic's

19     brother, you identify him as such and you identify him as being -- as

20     living with Lukic in the Pionirska house also with his parents.  Was this

21     person married?

22        A.   Well, according to the words of Gojko Lukic himself, he was

23     married, his wife lived in Belgrade, and they had two sons.  I don't know

24     whether that is true and I don't feel like probing into that.  He was

25     Milan Lukic's elder brother.

Page 719

 1        Q.   Was his wife killed?

 2        A.   Gojko Lukic met a young girl during the war, he met her at

 3     Visegrad; during the first months she was not his wife.

 4        Q.   And what happened to this woman?

 5     (redacted)

 6     (redacted)

 7     (redacted)  He needed fuel, and he said to me, Turn around and

 8     look out the window, that's my girlfriend Amela Gacka from Dobrun, the

 9     village of Dobrun.

10        Q.   Did you ever see this woman sitting in a car driven by

11     Milan Lukic?

12        A.   I noticed that woman in the Passat vehicle, but that was in late

13     autumn, not on that day but in late autumn, a couple of months

14     thereafter.

15        Q.   After you met her, did you learn what happened to her?

16        A.   I also had occasion to see her walking with Milan Lukic's mother.

17     They would be carrying some groceries that they had bought at the green

18     market, and I could notice that Amela Gacka was pregnant.

19        Q.   Is she alive today?

20        A.   Amela Gacka is no longer alive.

21        Q.   Could you tell us in which conditions she died, if you know?

22        A.   I was returning from the centre of town, from the public

23     accountancy service (redacted)  Amela Gacka was

24     sitting by Milan in a car.  He took her out and to the bridge, to the

25     bridge over the Drina River.  I remember, it had to be sometime around or

Page 720

 1     before, rather, 1.00 p.m., during the day that is.  She was the last

 2     victim that I know of in the city of Visegrad and this happened in

 3     autumn, in late autumn, it was cold.  Actually, from what I learned Milan

 4     had her returned, had her specifically returned from Belgrade in order to

 5     cut short her young life.  Amela Gacka had a father and a brother,

 6     Meho Gacka was the father and I forgot the name of the brother (redacted)

 7     (redacted)

 8        Q.   You say that he made her come back so that he would end her life.

 9     What do you mean by that?

10        A.   What I mean is that Gojko Lukic, his older brother, actually gave

11     all that up and he was no longer noticed -- his presence was no longer

12     noticed in these last months in Visegrad.  He left the town together with

13     Amela Gacka to build a future somewhere else with her and live with her

14     somewhere else and she was also pregnant.  Before giving birth and

15     giving -- bringing a new life into this world, he brought her back to the

16     Bosnian city of Visegrad and took her life.  Otherwise Amela Gacka would

17     also be a witness here today and she would have many a thing to tell

18     about what Milan Lukic did.  I'm very sorry for her and for her

19     parents -- parent and her brother, whom I knew well, although I do not

20     know where they are today nor whether they are still alive.  I have no

21     information whatsoever about them.

22        Q.   When you say he cut short her life, who are you speaking about,

23     Gojko or Milan Lukic?

24        A.   I'm talking about Milan Lukic.  In the last two months, Gojko was

25     not anywhere to be seen in the city of Visegrad.  He himself was saying

Page 721

 1     that he would give it up, the city, go away, that he would go away to

 2     live with Amela Gacka.  And he told me, I'm afraid that he might kill

 3     her, Amela, that is, one day because he also had killed her mother.  I'm

 4     relating to you all these things which were told me by Gojko Lukic.  I

 5     gave some thought to this man.  He did so many things wrong, committed so

 6     many wrongdoings, but I do give -- I do have an inkling of hope for him

 7     because I'm very sorry about all the injustice that he has suffered.  I

 8     am sorry that he has lost his wife and his unborn baby.

 9        Q.   Thank you very much, Witness VG-115.

10             MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have finished with

11     my examination of this witness.

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you, Mr. Ossogo.

13             Mr. Alarid -- no, Mr. Alarid, you have of course every right to

14     put your case vigorously, that's the tradition from which you come, but I

15     ask you to bear in mind that this is a witness who has obviously been

16     through quite a lot and is distraught.  Take that into consideration and

17     I know you'll be able to find a way to put your case as vigorously as

18     possible, but nonetheless respecting her condition.  Thank you.

19             MR. ALARID:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I will try to do that.

20                           Cross-examination by Mr. Alarid:

21        Q.   Ms. 115, good morning.

22        A.   Good morning.

23        Q.   I'd kind of like to address the last things you just testified

24     to, but I would like to get some background information as to how your

25     involvement in the prosecution of Mitar Vasiljevic, Milan Lukic, and

Page 722

 1     Sredoje Lukic occurred.  Can we do that?

 2        A.   To tell you frankly, I decided to do that myself, to testify,

 3     that is, and I did testify in order to prove in the minutest details that

 4     I know what the truth was as to what the Lukics did and what

 5     Mitar Vasiljevic did.  Nobody compelled me to do this.  I'm doing this on

 6     a voluntary basis.

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you very much, Witness.

 8             MR. ALARID:

 9        Q.   Yes, ma'am, but that's actually exactly what I'd like to talk

10     about.  When did you make this decision to participate as a witness

11     against Mitar Vasiljevic, Milan Lukic, and Sredoje Lukic?

12        A.   I always had this decision in my subconscious.  I couldn't have

13    done it in the city of Visegrad because there I wasn't a free person. (redacted)

14     (redacted)  I knew

15     that one day I would either be taking the witness-stand or writing a book

16     about these things.

17        Q.   Why would you want to write a book?

18        A.   I would want to do that because the most beautiful of cities,

19     Visegrad, which I love the most in the entire Republic of Bosnia and

20     Herzegovina in the currently Republika Srpska (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24        Q.   And --

25        A.   -- and now -- yes, please go ahead, ask your question.  Can I

Page 723

 1     continue?

 2        Q.   Ma'am, isn't it true that you place personal responsibility for

 3     the destruction of Visegrad on my client, Milan Lukic, Sredoje Lukic, and

 4     Mitar Vasiljevic?

 5        A.   Sir, I have to tell you this, Milan Lukic, Sredoje Lukic,

 6     Mitar Vasiljevic, and all the other members of Milan's group always

 7     hoisted their huge black flag with a skull and bones on it on which was

 8     written "The Avenger."  (redacted)

 9     (redacted)

10        Q.   I haven't said you were lying yet.

11        A.   I have not come here to lie.  I have come here to prove the truth

12     and that truth is a small thing, namely, what was it that those people

13     did in the city of Visegrad.  I'm not actually defending the Muslim

14     people or the Serbian people for that matter; I'm just here to tell what

15     I've seen and what I've experienced in order for all people to be done

16     justice.

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 724

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12        A.   I say to you even today, I do not feel the need to hate anyone, I

13     cannot hate anyone, I was just ashamed and I'm still ashamed today.  I

14     never hated the Lukic family, not before the war, not during the war, nor

15     do I hate them now.  (redacted)

16     (redacted)  I fear them then, it was not that they

17     feared me.  Let me reiterate, I do not personally hate them, I do not

18     hate any Serbs.  I'm not protecting Muslims.  I'm just telling the truth.

19        Q.   Isn't it true, ma'am, that despite the fact that you're

20     supposedly in close proximity to several crimes, no one that participated

21     in these crimes harmed you?

22        A.   Evil was inflicted on me in other situations which are not of

23     relevance in this particular case.  Evil was inflicted on me for two and

24     a half years in terms of the fact that I could not leave that city.  Had

25     I left it, it would have better for Lukic, (redacted)

Page 725

 1     (redacted)  Visegrad is a

 2     small town, everything is known, everything is heard as to what other

 3     people are doing.  To their misfortune, I was there to see what they were

 4     doing and I should like to emphasize once again, I personally do not hate

 5     them.

 6        Q.   Ma'am, ma'am, that's not the question I asked you.  The question

 7     I asked you is:  Supposedly you're in close proximity to the perpetrators

 8     of very serious crimes, they see you, they know you see them, they do not

 9     harm you; isn't that true?

10        A.   That is true.  At that moment they inflicted no harm on me.

11        Q.   Don't you feel that that is illogical that you would not be

12     harmed, especially since they supposedly hate you (redacted)

13     (redacted) that you wouldn't be made a victim with the rest of them?

14        A.   What are you specifically driving at?  What was your specific

15     question?  Should Milan Lukic have killed me in Pionirska Street or the

16     Bikavac settlement and then you would be happy with that?

17        Q.   No, ma'am, I would not be happy with that.  What I would happy

18     with is if you would explain why a material witness to such horrible

19     crimes, (redacted) is not

20     included as a victim to -- in hindsight -- sure, so you wouldn't be here

21     today but simply because you just said that you were hated as well?

22        A.   They did hate me.  They're actually sorry today that I survived.

23     The Lukics did have the time to kill me.  They knew that I could not

24     leave town, (redacted)

25     (redacted)

Page 726

 1        Q.   Ma'am, let's -- you gave a statement and you said that you went

 2     on your own accord to give a statement against the Lukics and Vasiljevic;

 3     correct?

 4        A.   [No interpretation]

 5        Q.   Before you made the decision to give your testimony in either

 6     statement or trial, had you read news accounts or the indictment against

 7     Mr. Lukic?

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   So you had not read any accounts as to the facts and

10     circumstances of the fire before you gave your statements over three days

11     in the year 2000?

12        A.   I gave statements, my statements, when Mitar Vasiljevic was

13     deprived of liberty, that is when I made my statements.

14        Q.   So when you saw the fact -- and I'm assuming you saw or got that

15     information from news reports and the community?

16        A.   You can assume that.  I do not oppose that.  I'm here to tell the

17     truth.

18        Q.   On direct exam by the state you testified that when you saw that

19     Mitar Vasiljevic had been arrested he was fatter than you had known him

20     before when he was -- when you were a witness to his atrocities; is that

21     true?

22        A.   Mitar Vasiljevic had put on some weight by the time I saw him in

23     the court, I mean he had gained some weight in relation to the last time

24     I saw him in Visegrad.

25        Q.   Isn't it true you said, though, that you had seen photographs of

Page 727

 1     him following his arrest?

 2        A.   I can't remember that.  I saw Mitar in the flesh in the city of

 3     Visegrad and after so many years had elapsed I saw Mitar as an arrested

 4     person.  A couple of years had passed, so I couldn't help noticing, and I

 5     did say so, that Mitar had put on some weight.

 6        Q.   A couple of years had passed.  You're giving your statement today

 7     in 2008 for instances that happened in 1992.  Before 2001 when you gave

 8     your testimony, when was the last time you had seen Mitar Vasiljevic?

 9        A.   I was able to see Mitar Vasiljevic as long as I myself was in

10     Visegrad.  (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14        Q.   Now, would the court usher please put on the screen what has been

15     uploaded as 1D00-0596 which is the English version of Ms. 115's 2000

16     statement and 1D00-0616 is the B/C/S version.

17             Now, ma'am, while they're uploading those documents, isn't it

18     true that you've read them before your testimony today?

19        A.   Excuse me, I did not understand your question.  What is it that

20     you're asking me?

21        Q.   Did you read your statement you gave to the Tribunal in 2000

22     prior to your testimony today to refresh your recollection?

23        A.   Yes, I skimmed through it.  I didn't read it in total.

24             MR. ALARID:  I would ask the court usher to direct the -- to page

25     14 of both respective statements.

Page 728

 1        Q.   Can you see that, ma'am?  I'd like you to read the paragraph

 2     discussing Gojko Lukic, third paragraph from the top.

 3        A.   About Gojko Lukic.

 4        Q.   Now, you testified today under oath on direct examination that

 5     you actually witnessed the death at the Drina River of his brother's

 6     wife; isn't that true?

 7        A.   Just a -- wait a minute.  Yes, I've read it.

 8        Q.   Okay.  Isn't it true you never mentioned in your statement that

 9     you actually witnessed the murder?

10        A.   Yes, but this is a -- my condensed statement, a condensation of

11     my statement.

12        Q.   Ma'am, don't you think it's an important thing to get out in a

13     statement that you're an actual eye-witness to a crime?

14        A.   I passed by in a car that day.  I was returning (redacted) and

15     Milan took out this pregnant girl from his car.  I was alone and they

16     were alone.

17        Q.   The Drina bridge is in the centre of town, is it not?

18        A.   There are two bridges, in fact.

19        Q.   And things had returned to normal by this point supposedly that

20     you had seen Gojko's wife in the market with his mother?  Isn't that

21     true?

22        A.   Yes, that's true.  That happened two or three days before the

23     murder.

24        Q.   And at this particular time you're saying today that at 1.00 p.m.

25     you were actually right there, conveniently, at the time that Gojko's

Page 729

 1     wife was taken by Milan Lukic to the bridge to be killed?

 2        A.   I was returning (redacted)

 3     (redacted) via the Novi Most.

 4        Q.   And you're saying today that you actually witnessed that killing;

 5     true?

 6        A.   Yes, that is true.

 7        Q.   Did he do it with a gun or a knife?

 8        A.   Shots could be heard.  He did it with fire-arms, not a knife.

 9        Q.   How come you didn't say that in 2000?

10        A.   I cannot remember word for word what it was that I said in 2000.

11     I tried to provide as many details as possible, and now when you're

12     asking me these things I'm giving you answers to them.

13        Q.   You reviewed the statement before signing them; correct?

14        A.   Correct.

15        Q.   And you reviewed them and actually issued a proofing statement or

16     proofing notes that you also agreed to; correct?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And in the proofing statement you never mentioned the fact that

19     you were actually an eye-witness to the death of Milan's sister-in-law;

20     isn't that true?

21        A.   Here in this statement you can see that I was in a vehicle, and I

22     also indicated here that Milan and Amela were also in a vehicle.  And I

23     stated that that was on the bridge.

24        Q.   And nowhere did you say in that statement that you actually

25     witnessed the killing of his pregnant wife until today, here in court?

Page 730

 1        A.   Nobody asked me specifically about this murder at that time there

 2     was -- Mitar Vasiljevic was on trial.  So I say now, if I was alone in

 3     the vehicle on the bridge and Milan was in a vehicle on the bridge, I was

 4     not armed, Milan was armed, and Milan took the lady out on the bridge and

 5     it was common knowledge what happened to men and women when they were

 6     taken to that bridge.  Nobody else was shot at.  Milan did not shoot at

 7     me.  Amela Gacka was killed then, and when I got back (redacted) and

 8     on the morrow and for some time after that this story was told and

 9     repeatedly told that Amela Gacka had been killed on the bridge.

10        Q.   So are you saying now that really you just heard that she had

11     been killed?

12        A.   No.  Milan was shooting while we were passing by, he was shooting

13     at Amela.  It was the talk of the town.  It was a new story.  It happened

14     in late autumn.  At the moment I happened to be there.  We had to cross

15     the bridge.  The bridge is long, so we couldn't turn back in our vehicle.

16        Q.   Don't you find that's an amazing coincidence that you had -- and

17     by the way, this is November, right?

18        A.   It was in November.

19        Q.   And don't you find it's an amazing coincidence that you in a

20     wrong-place/wrong-time situation just happened to witness so many

21     atrocities personally by Milan Lukic, Mitar Vasiljevic, and

22     Sredoje Lukic?

23        A.   It all happened by chance.  It's -- it is incredible but it

24     happened by chance -- but they did that on a daily basis so that

25     everybody could have been in the position to witness something of that.

Page 731

 1     To my misfortune, I had to go, or rather, take a ride from the town

 2     centre (redacted) so I

 3     happened to see the events on the bridge and the things that happened to

 4     people.  (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)  Don't take me wrong.  I

 8     wouldn't have had the courage to follow the Lukics around or members of

 9     their group to learn what they were doing.  Nobody was opposing them nor

10     did they care.  (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20     And the Lukics and the members of the group were committing massacres and

21     I knew what they were doing.  They were doing what -- they were going

22     about their job (redacted)  I couldn't oppose them,

23     nobody could.

24             MR. ALARID:  Could the court usher please turn the statements to

25     page 12, please, on both B/C/S and English.

Page 732

 1        Q.   Ma'am, I'd like to put to your attention and ask you review the

 2     second paragraph and third and fourth paragraphs of your statement in

 3     B/C/S.

 4        A.   On page 1 --

 5        Q.   On page 12, please.

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you very much.

 9             MR. ALARID:

10        Q.   Please indicate when you've finished reading.

11        A.   Yes, I have read it.

12        Q.   Do you realize, ma'am, in your statement of 2000 before the trial

13     of Mitar Vasiljevic, you were given every opportunity to describe the

14     Bikavac fire; isn't that true?

15        A.   That is true, but here --

16        Q.   And isn't it true that you mentioned Mitar Vasiljevic, as in the

17     one that was on trial, as being present at the Bikavac fire?

18        A.   I mentioned Mitar Vasiljevic because there were two persons by

19     that name.  The one I know is the younger Mitar Vasiljevic who worked as

20     a waiter in Panos and the older Mitar Vasiljevic, that was my mistake,

21     is, in fact, Mitar Knezevic, an older man who only had one eye.

22        Q.   So, in fact, you do claim that Mitar Vasiljevic, the younger one

23     that worked as a waiter, was at the Bikavac fire and you maintain that

24     today; correct?

25        A.   I am saying that this is about Mitar Knezevic, who died a natural

Page 733

 1     death.

 2        Q.   So you're saying that this is a mistake now?

 3        A.   But I always designated them as Mitar Vasiljevic senior and Mitar

 4     Vasiljevic junior, and this one is Mitar Knezevic who was older than

 5     Mitar Vasiljevic, the waiter.

 6        Q.   So Mitar Vasiljevic now wasn't at the fire, as you testified

 7     earlier?

 8        A.   When did I testify earlier?  The first time I've given testimony

 9     about the Bikavac fire is today.

10        Q.   But I'm talking about in your statement, ma'am.

11        A.   I am now telling you what this statement means.  I cannot

12     remember the exact names of every person.

13        Q.   Well -- but you'd indicated that you'd known Mitar Vasiljevic for

14     20 years, that he'd been a local (redacted) and he was a

15     waiter, a well-known person.

16        A.   Yes, he was a well-known person.

17        Q.   And in your statement you indicate with such certainty that you

18     saw him at Pionirska Street fire, the Bikavac fire, and several incidents

19     of atrocities in late June and July of 1992; isn't that true?

20        A.   It is true that I saw him --

21        Q.   And so do you --

22        A.   -- at the fire.  Please go ahead.

23        Q.   At Pionirska Street fire and Bikavac?

24        A.   I saw Mitar Vasiljevic in Pionirska Street and I pointed him out.

25     He was on a -- he was on horseback, on a white horse, but it was

Page 734

 1     Mitar Knezevic.  I cannot remember well about Mitar Vasiljevic, the

 2     younger man.  And I remember well all I said about those -- these other

 3     people.  It was always confusing to me because there were two persons by

 4     the same name Mitar.

 5        Q.   But nothing that make them look alike, correct, or how you knew

 6     them?

 7        A.   No, they don't look alike at all.  Mitar Knezevic in my mind

 8     always was Mitar Vasiljevic, but he was older than the real

 9     Mitar Vasiljevic.  And I repeat, he only had one eye, I don't remember

10     which eye, but they were together often.

11        Q.   And isn't it true that you state in your statement with such

12     certainty that Mitar Vasiljevic was committing atrocities with --

13     supposedly with Milan in late July of 1992?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes --

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Don't answer.

16             MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] President, I wonder whether one

17     could continue, with all respect due to my colleague who may certainly

18     ask these questions, I wonder whether one should continue this way.

19     We've already had a decision in the Mitar Vasiljevic trial, and as for

20     the framework of the indictment for which this lady is now giving

21     testimony, I wonder whether these questions about Mitar Vasiljevic are so

22     important.  I know she mentioned him, but I don't know if the Chamber can

23     be helped with this.  We have now to deal with Milan Lukic, with the two

24     Lukics.  There already has been a judgement for Vasiljevic, so is this

25     helpful?  Should one pursue along this line?

Page 735

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Ossogo, it goes to credibility, that's what

 3     he's -- that's why he's cross-examining.

 4             But I do believe you have spent enough time on that and should

 5     move on.

 6             He's testing her credibility; that's why he's referring to the

 7     Vasiljevic case, and he's entitled to do that but not ad nauseam.

 8             MR. ALARID:  Tell me when I'm beating the dead horse too much,

 9     Judge.

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I believe you have done enough on that

11     particular topic and should move on.

12             MR. ALARID:

13        Q.   Now today, Ms. 115, you indicate that you hid in an orchard --

14             MR. CEPIC:  Sometimes it's a problem to have translation, full

15     translation in B/C/S, so I kindly ask my learned friend to sometimes ask

16     a little bit slowly to have a full translation in B/C/S.  Thank you.

17     Because it was overlapping.

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  [Microphone not activated]

19             MR. ALARID:  Yes.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  [Microphone not activated]

21             MR. ALARID:

22        Q.   Now, before we move on from the Bikavac fire would it be fair to

23     say that these three paragraphs were all that you had read, reviewed, and

24     otherwise attested to prior to this testimony today regarding the Bikavac

25     fire?  Ma'am, isn't that true?

Page 736

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  The witness is waiting for the interpretation.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I reviewed it.

 3             MR. ALARID:

 4        Q.   And isn't it true that there's no mention of the garage door in

 5     your statement?

 6        A.   Well, the garage door was mentioned in my full-length statement.

 7     When I was testifying in the Vasiljevic trial, I didn't have the

 8     opportunity to say anything about the Bikavac massacre.  Judging by the

 9     extent you're asking questions about Mitar Vasiljevic, you are about to

10     convict him yourself because you are insisting that I say that he was

11     present.  And I am mentioning the garage door because Milan Lukic and

12     Sredoje Lukic dragged them there and put them against the door, the

13     entrance door, of the house so that people couldn't escape.  I could see

14     that clearly.  My vision was impaired in no way, and that is the part of

15     my full-length statement as I made it today.

16        Q.   And in your prior statement, ma'am, you mentioned no contact with

17     VG-114, do you?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   And you mention no grenades or gasoline bottles being thrown and

20     seeing that, do you?

21        A.   I did mention it today and that's what I said in my full-length

22     statement.

23        Q.   In your written statement in anticipation of your earlier

24     testimony, isn't it true you did not mention grenades being used or

25     gasoline bottles being used prior to today?

Page 737

 1        A.   I'm testifying today.  This is the first opportunity I've had to

 2     testify about Bikavac.

 3        Q.   But you had a full opportunity in over three days in the year

 4     2000 to give all the details to the investigators that are relevant to

 5     this -- every incident that you knew of and you failed to do so; isn't

 6     that true?

 7        A.   I did lots to that effect, I wrote entire novels.  All these

 8     statements are, in fact, digested and I repeat that I'm saying the truth.

 9     I could write volumes and I have already forgotten lots of things.

10        Q.   Well, you had an opportunity to refresh your recollection with

11     both the statement and your volumes of information, and you had an

12     opportunity to give that information to the Prosecution in your proofing

13     statement; and yet you only made one change in regards to the Bikavac in

14     anticipation of today's testimony.  Isn't that true?

15        A.   I made no change.  The Trial Chamber allowed me to speak at more

16     length in my statement of today.  I only spoke more extensively today and

17     in comparison to my shorter statement, my earlier, shorter statement.

18     I'm only sorry that I forgot many facts because a lot of time has elapsed

19     since.

20        Q.   Well, if you read your statement as regards to the Bikavac fire,

21     it appears in writing that you, in fact, saw nothing and left and only

22     heard noises; isn't that true?

23        A.   I couldn't leave the place in two minutes; that would have been

24     impossible to do.

25        Q.   You made no mention of an orchard; isn't that true?

Page 738

 1        A.   That was the shortest way.  I didn't mention it, but it was a

 2     shortcut I took which I marked with a cross and a circle.  That's where

 3     I -- the way I took to leave.  It's a narrow footpath.  I couldn't leave

 4     passing by the vehicles.  It was a very small plum orchard on the plot

 5     belonging to Medo Mulahasic.

 6        Q.   In your statement you indicated that you heard bursts of fire but

 7     in today's testimony you indicated you saw the grenades and the fire and

 8     the gasoline bottles; isn't that true?

 9        A.   They were throwing bottles filled with gasoline and hand-grenades

10     and there were bursts of fire, and I was trying to make it to the main

11     road which wasn't far from the orchard.  It's all close, some 20 metres

12     or so.  I was going for the main road to continue toward the town centre.

13        Q.   And isn't it true in your statement you did not indicate in any

14     way that you saw this grenade throwing or gasoline throwing?

15        A.   I reiterate that my statement was digested.  Do I not have the

16     right to say the truth today?  Because I have been asked to give as much

17     detail about the events at Bikavac.  Why are you now questioning me thus

18     and preventing me from saying the truth?  I didn't do it, you didn't do

19     it; we all know who did it, the two Lukics and the members of their

20     group.

21        Q.   You named several participants of or alleged participants of the

22     Bikavac fire, including a Zoran Vasiljevic.  Why did you hate

23     Mr. Zoran Vasiljevic so much as you indicated in your prior direct

24     testimony?

25        A.   Thank you for this question.  Now I can say.  To me that man is

Page 739

 1     Zoran Vasiljevic.  His name is Zoran, but I'm still not sure whether his

 2     last name is Simsic or Vasiljevic but I know what he looks like and I

 3     have a reason to hate that man (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)  Similarly, as in the case of Mitar Vasiljevic or Knezevic.  And

 7     please don't insult me because of these lowly people, not to call them

 8     animals.  That is why I hate Zoran Vasiljevic or Knezevic.  He is -- he

 9     lives somewhere around Belgrade.  He is also a native of Visegrad who

10     worked in Serbia and --

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Witness, thank you.  I believe you have given a

12     full explanation to the question asked.

13             Let's move on.

14             MR. ALARID:

15        Q.   Well, ma'am, in your statement on page 17, you do indicate a

16     synopsis about Mr. Vasiljevic, but you indicate that Mitar Vasiljevic was

17     with him so it should be very easy for you to be able to tell them apart;

18     wouldn't that be fair?

19             MR. ALARID:  And if the court usher would change to page 17 if

20     the witness needs to refresh her recollection.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have read it.

22             MR. ALARID:

23        Q.   And so you seem pretty certain as to the identities of both

24     people (redacted)

25        A.   Yes, they were Mitar Knezevic, the older one, and

Page 740

 1     Zoran Vasiljevic or Simsic.  I'm sorry for not knowing his precise last

 2     name.  It was Mitar Knezevic, the older man.

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 741











11  Pages 741-743 redacted. Private session.















Page 744

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12             MR. ALARID:

13        Q.   You indicated in your earlier testimony the presence of

14     Niko Vujicic?

15        A.   Vujicic.

16        Q.   Sorry, ma'am.  And Veljko Planincic?

17        A.   Planincic.

18        Q.   They were both police officers?

19        A.   Yes, they were.

20        Q.   Who was the commander of the police in Visegrad at the time?

21        A.   The commander, the komandir, of the police was Milan Josipovic.

22        Q.   What about Perisic?

23        A.   And Risto Perisic.

24        Q.   And Drago Tomic?

25        A.   He also had some senior post in the police.  Yes, he too was with

Page 745

 1     the police force.

 2        Q.   And what about the Crisis Staff?

 3             MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Objection.  I don't know whether we

 4     dealt with all this, all these political questions regarding the

 5     structure of the police force.  This lady was never asked any questions

 6     about the structure of the police forces in Visegrad.  She did -- was

 7     asked questions about the persons that belonged to the police, but I

 8     believe that my fellow -- my learned colleague now is talking about the

 9     structure of the police force and this lady has nothing to do with this.

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Well, let us see whether she can answer, whether

11     she's able to answer the question.  But we -- it's now time for the

12     break, so we'll take the break, half an hour.

13                           --- Recess taken at 12.09 p.m.

14                           --- On resuming at 12.43 p.m.

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Alarid, you were about to ask the witness

16     questions relating to the structure of the police force.  To what end?

17             MR. ALARID:  [Microphone not activated]

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

19             MR. ALARID:  [Microphone not activated]

20             Basically, Your Honour, to show who was in control and that --

21     also this witness's knowledge of the situation in town at the time. (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 746

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14                           [Open session]

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  The trial is a public trial and --

17             MR. ALARID:  Did I take us to the private session?

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  We need to be sure when the private session is

19     ended that we return.  It is, of course, ultimately the Chamber's

20     responsibility but I ask all officers here to be alert to that and to

21     bring it to the attention of the Court.

22             MR. ALARID:  Your Honour, did I do that?

23             JUDGE ROBINSON:  No, I'm not saying that you did, but just let us

24     know if we have not picked up that we are still in private session when

25     we should not be.

Page 747

 1             MR. ALARID:

 2        Q.   Ms. 115, I had asked you before about your knowledge of the

 3     Crisis Staff in Visegrad, the political hierarchy, if you will.  Can you

 4     describe that at the time, in the summer of 1992?

 5        A.   You must ask me specifically what it is that you're interested in

 6     in order for me to describe it.  Is it the police, the staff, what

 7     specifically?

 8        Q.   What was the police -- what were Perisic's and Tomic's

 9     responsibility with regards to the police force?

10        A.   Risto Perisic and Tomic, yes.  Mr. Risto Perisic was the chief of

11     the police of the so-called MUP, M-U-P, in Visegrad, a very positive

12     person in my opinion.  He discharged his duties, he did so in the very

13     building of the police, he was responsible for his police force members

14     in terms that they were to provide assistance and actually prove

15     themselves as police officers in their activities.

16             As for Dragan Tomic, I didn't know him well.  In my view, he too

17     was a very good person, a positive person, and I know that his brother

18     was killed, I'm not sure and I apologise, whether it was his younger or

19     older brother, he was killed in the war.

20        Q.   And what about the Crisis Staff, Savovic?

21        A.   I had occasion to see Savovic frequently.  He worked at the

22     municipality and he also discharged his office well, unassociated with

23     the paramilitary forces, which is to say I cannot venture an opinion as

24     to what actually Savovic did but he was a very positive person and figure

25     in the city of Visegrad.  At that time and during his time and after his

Page 748

 1     time I can say that he was a very conscientious and clean person, a very

 2     positive character in my mind.  According to what I heard and as far as I

 3     can remember and as far as I could see, in the electric power authority

 4     building radio waves could be used.  There I often saw Savovic --

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you very much, Witness.

 6             Next question.

 7             MR. ALARID:

 8        Q.   And, ma'am, would it be fair to say that the Crisis Staff and --

 9     placed into power Perisic and Tomic following the SDS taking power?

10        A.   No.  Perisic and Tomic were employed with the police prior to the

11     breakout of the war, prior to the war situation.  They did have power

12     also before that --

13        Q.   But after --

14        A.   -- Crisis Staff did not actually confer any particular function

15     on them.

16        Q.   Isn't it true that the Crisis Staff had the ability through the

17     SDS to appoint members throughout the community, this included the police

18     force?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   How do you know this?

21        A.   The SDS was a distinct party, a separate party.

22        Q.   Separate party from who?

23        A.   I'm unable to tell you anything about the SDS.  That is something

24     new.  I was doing my job, Perisic was discharging his task.  Now, the SDS

25     was a new creation in town.  I cannot tell you anything about it.  I

Page 749

 1     don't even know who was in charge of the SDS.

 2        Q.   Isn't it true the SDS took control of Visegrad following the

 3     persecutions of Muslims?

 4        A.   What do you mean by took control --

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Just a minute, please, Witness.

 6             Yes, Mr. Ossogo.

 7             MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Yes, my learned friend Mr. Alarid is

 8     trying to get the witness to affirm that Muslims were persecuted by the

 9     SDS.  I don't know whether in the examination-in-chief this was raised.

10     I don't think it was raised at all.  It might have to do with the

11     credibility of the witness, but there are Rules of Procedure.  You cannot

12     go in any direction when you ask questions.  The questions in the

13     cross-examination have to do with the questions that were put in the

14     examination-in-chief.  I fully understood what you said earlier, but this

15     is a different kettle of fish, if I could say so.  I don't know where in

16     my client's -- in my client's statement or testimony there's anything

17     about the structure of all this.  He's talking about persecution but not

18     in such detail, so I believe that my learned friend should remain in the

19     framework of the questions that were put in the examination-in-chief and

20     in the statement.  That way I think we could move on; otherwise, at this

21     pace we're going to spend two days on this.

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I'm not going to allow -- I will not allow

23     further questioning on that subject matter, Mr. Alarid.

24             MR. ALARID:  And, Your Honour, just to make the record and -- but

25     I will move on is simply that in the global sense of a trial oftentimes

Page 750

 1     the credibility is tested against other witnesses presented by the state.

 2     And when other witnesses have testified to different observations with

 3     regards to the make-up, the political structure, and then this witness is

 4     then somehow contradictory, then it would be up to the Chamber to weigh

 5     the credibility of each witness against the other and disregard one or

 6     the other or both, if necessary, if that's where -- if the Court saw fit

 7     down the road.  That's where I was going with that, Your Honour, but I

 8     understand.

 9        Q.   Now, just in terms of your knowledge of Perisic, ma'am, did you

10     realize he was a professor before the war?

11        A.   Yes, I know that he was a teacher, that he worked in a school,

12     but I'm that kind of person and I didn't actually communicate much with

13     Perisic, I didn't have the need to.  I know that he was the chief of the

14     police and that he conscientiously discharged his duties during the war,

15     prior to the war, and after the war, according to what I know, because I

16     had much more pressing matters to attend to, building my house, my duties

17     at work.  I was not involved in any political party so that I can only

18     tell you what happened in the town of Visegrad when the people were

19     divided.  This is what I can tell you about.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you very much.  Witness, I'm going to ask

21     you to try your best to give answers that are short and to the point.

22             MR. ALARID:

23        Q.   Now, ma'am, do you recall testifying at the earlier trial?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Do you recall being shown photographs in that trial?

Page 751

 1        A.   What photographs do you mean?  What do you mean?

 2        Q.   You were asked to look at a photograph and see if you could

 3     identify the location of the Pionirska Street fire.

 4        A.   Oh, I see.

 5        Q.   And isn't it true that on that date you'd said that you could not

 6     identify where the fire had occurred because you had been too full of

 7     fear at the time that you witnessed it?

 8        A.   I was definitely scared, but I do know from which direction the

 9     fire came and whose property the house was and that's why I can find my

10     way in that photograph.

11        Q.   The question was, ma'am, is:  Isn't it true in the earlier trial

12     you were not able to find that house in a photograph, and yet today

13     you're able to point it out?  Isn't that true?

14        A.   I do not remember that I was unable to point to the house.

15     Perhaps I wasn't, perhaps the photographs were not the same.  Were they?

16        Q.   I'm simply confirming, ma'am, and it is not for me to say, it's

17     actually for your recollection as a witness to know.  And so isn't it

18     true, ma'am, that you were not able to identify the home in the earlier

19     trial?

20        A.   I wish to stress again that I do not know.  Perhaps I was unable

21     to precisely point to the house.  Perhaps the newly built house was

22     pointed out to me, I -- in that photograph.  Perhaps it was not this

23     photograph which I just saw.  Maybe I was shown one with a newly built

24     house and I was unable to pin-point the two houses.  I don't remember it

25     well.

Page 752

 1             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Alarid, the matter could be clarified if you

 2     were to point us to the evidence in the earlier trial.

 3             MR. ALARID:  The evidence as it's loaded in my batch from the

 4     Prosecution, Your Honour, was -- it's under -- it's been uploaded under

 5     1D00-0706, and if that could be brought on the screen by the court

 6     officer, please.

 7        Q.   Do you recall this photograph, ma'am?

 8        A.   Well, now that I'm looking at this photograph, whether it was the

 9     same photograph as on that day I don't remember; but I can recognise the

10     house.  The photograph may have been different.  Now looking at it I can

11     recognise the house.  I don't remember my situation in the previous

12     testimony, whether I was afraid or not, but now I can -- I can find my

13     way in this photograph.

14        Q.   What helped you gain this memory between the trial in 2001 and

15     today, in 2008?

16        A.   It's because I am focused and I can think back more thoroughly so

17     that -- so as to avoid pointing out the wrong house.  Perhaps I meant a

18     newly built house.  There may be new houses there now.  Looking at the

19     houses as they are now, I cannot remember what the photograph was like

20     that I saw several years ago.  I don't remember well what exactly I said.

21     I remember the main facts but not every word and everything that was

22     written down.

23             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Ossogo.

24             MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] I don't want to disturb the

25     cross-examination of my learned friend, but I didn't think he was going

Page 753

 1     to show this document.  I thought he was going to show the transcript.

 2     But since we have the document here on the screen, you see -- we see that

 3     the witness put a sign on the second house.  Is this private session,

 4     sorry, are we in private session?

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  The document is not being broadcast.

 6             MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Very well.  Very well.

 7             So I want to say that obviously there was a house that was

 8     identified during the previous trial because this house that has a

 9     balcony, second house on Pionirska, so this house was identified.  We see

10     the marking, and the Defence is trying to confuse the witness at the

11     moment because here this person did identify her house and from her house

12     she said where the smoke came from.  Now, if we want to have additional

13     information, we should go to the transcript.

14             Let me remind you that this witness, as you notice, suffered

15     great trauma.  All this happened almost 20 years ago so -- all this is

16     very human.  Obviously she did identify her house which means she did

17     identify Pionirska, and if we can move to the transcript, if Defence

18     wants to, we can do that.  But I don't believe that the Defence can say

19     that the witness was not able to identify her house or the house where

20     the fire was, her second house, because she did identify places.

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Ossogo, you have made your point.

22     Mr. Alarid.

23             MR. ALARID:  Yes, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Shall we look at the transcript?

25             MR. ALARID:  Yes, Your Honour.

Page 754

 1             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Or are you satisfied now that the witness has

 2     identified her house?

 3             MR. ALARID:  Your Honour, actually I'm not satisfied.  The reason

 4     I'm not satisfied simply is because what she had marked on the original

 5     exhibit was not the point.  The original exhibit has no markings --

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Let's look at the transcript.

 7             MR. ALARID:  The transcript, Your Honour, is page 1021 of the

 8     Vasiljevic trial transcript, in English only, of course.  And it has been

 9     uploaded as 1D00-0635.  And actually I misspoke on the page number,

10     Your Honour, it's actually page 1024.  And we're still looking at, I

11     think, 109 -- there you go.

12             And, Your Honour ...

13                           [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  That transcript I am told was in closed session

15     so we should be in private session.

16             MR. ALARID:  Okay.  Thank you, Your Honour.  Just looking at

17     that, though, Your Honour --

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Let us move into private session first.

19                           [Private session]

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 755

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3                      [Open session]

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  So do we have the page and the line?

 6             MR. ALARID:  Yes, Your Honour, it's page 1024 and it basically

 7     begins at line 13 and the question and the answer is on line 18 and

 8     it's -- the witness states:

 9             "A.  Yes, of course I did."  And that was with regards to hearing

10     activity outside the house.  "It was nearby.  I'm sorry, I'm unable to

11     show you the house where this was happening.  My mind was going, and

12     forgive me for this.  I was full of fear."

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  So your contention is that she did not identify

14     the house --

15             MR. ALARID:  Originally.

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  -- originally and she said the reason is that

17     she was full of fear.  She's not now full of fear.

18             MR. ALARID:  Well, Your Honour, I took it in context that she

19     wasn't in fear at the time of the testimony but that it was actually the

20     fear at the time of the incident that kept her from being able to recall

21     that.  The context, I guess, is open to debate.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, she had already answered and given the

24     explanation, which is that she is now focused and she can think back more

25     thoroughly.

Page 756

 1             So that's the explanation.  Let's move on.

 2             MR. ALARID:  Can we go back to the photo -- and, Your Honour,

 3     just for purposes, since I will forget in the future if I don't, I would

 4     like to tender the previous statements of this witness.  1D00-0596 is the

 5     English version of the statement, the trial transcript is 1D00-0635, the

 6     proofing statement is 1D00-3144, and the aerial photograph that was

 7     originally referred to in the Vasiljevic trial is 1D00-0706, and we would

 8     ask that they be admitted into evidence at this time --

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

10             MR. ALARID:  -- and under seal, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 1D00-0596 will become 1D18;

13     1D00-0635 will become 1D19, under seal; 1D00-3144 will become 1D20, under

14     seal; and 1D00-0706 will become 1D21, under seal.

15             MR. ALARID:

16        Q.   Now, ma'am --

17             MR. ALARID:  And, Your Honour, I would like to go back and put

18     the original statement which was, I guess, now being tendered as Defence

19     Exhibit 17, which is the original statement, and I'd like to go to page

20     11 and also show the B/C/S version -- or excuse me, 18, and I'd like to

21     show the B/C/S version at the same page of page 12 side by side -- excuse

22     me, I apologise, actually, page 11.

23        Q.   And I'd ask you, ma'am, to read the first paragraph in Serbian,

24     please.  Have you read that, ma'am?

25        A.   Yes, I have read it.

Page 757

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 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13             MR. ALARID:  Could the court usher please move both the exhibits

14     to the previous page, page 10, and move to the last paragraph, please,

15     bottom of both pages.

16        Q.   I'd like you to read the bottom paragraph, ma'am, please.  Please

17     indicate when you've had an opportunity to read that, ma'am, finish.

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Ossogo.

19             MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] The witness indicated who was the

20     owner of the house.  I would like to have the name of the -- the name of

21     the owner of the house be not indicated because we are in public session

22     now.

23             Witness V-115, you do not have to utter the name of the owner of

24     the house in which you were residing.

25             MR. ALARID:

Page 758

 1        Q.   Ma'am -- ma'am, have you had an opportunity to read that bottom

 2     paragraph on page 10?

 3             So as you're walking to the place you're staying, you're walking;

 4     correct?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   From what direction?

 7        A.   From the direction of my company toward the house where I was

 8     staying and in the direction of Pionirska, both up and down that street.

 9             MR. ALARID:  Can we have the exhibit that was 1D00-0706 which I

10     believe is 20 or 21.  And could the court officer please give the witness

11     the device in which to mark up this photograph.

12        Q.   And with an arrow, please, of a short nature, please indicate

13     from the direction you came from and where you were walking towards.

14        A.   [Marks]

15        Q.   And did you go all the way to the end of your arrow, ma'am, and

16     turn around and come back?

17        A.   I'm sorry, but it continues further up, outside the photograph.

18        Q.   Well, I understand that, ma'am.  So are you saying that when you

19     were walking from your place of employment you came from the bottom of

20     the photograph, as indicated, where you started the line?

21        A.   Yes, I went from the bottom up.

22        Q.   And the house in which you were staying that has the 115 and the

23     little circle in it, that's where you needed to go that day, nowhere

24     else?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 759

 1        Q.   And so, tell me where you met with Mitar Vasiljevic on the road.

 2        A.   No, that is not correct.

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12             MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.  Yes,

13     Mr. President.  I think it would be necessary to go in private session

14     because there's a lot of information that has been given which could

15     identify the witness.

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Alarid, if we're going to be proceeding

17     along those lines, we have to go into private session.

18            [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Chamber]

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 760

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21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23        Q.   Where did you speak with Mitar Vasiljevic?

24        A.   Why should I speak with Mitar Vasiljevic?

25        Q.   Isn't it true you spoke with a woman right before the fire,

Page 761

 1     according to your prior testimony?

 2        A.   I saw the woman on the street.  She broke free from that convoy

 3     and she saw me, but I had no contact with Mitar Vasiljevic and it's right

 4     that I didn't.

 5        Q.   Where did you see Mitar Vasiljevic?

 6        A.   I saw Mitar Vasiljevic at the same place where I saw all these

 7     other people I mentioned and as I said in my first testimony, and I would

 8     like to ask the Trial Chamber why the gentleman keeps referring me to the

 9     first testimony if the accused was -- has been convicted.  I'm now at

10     this trial where Milan Lukic and Sredoje Lukic are the defendants.  I

11     shouldn't have to mention Mitar Vasiljevic.  I thought this was done and

12     over with.  Why are you asking me about Mitar Vasiljevic all the time?

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  He's entitled to do so.  He's trying to show

14     that you're not a reliable witness.  He's testing what we call your

15     credibility by suggesting that in that trial you said one thing and in

16     your testimony here you are saying something else.  So that's the reason.

17     Don't get upset about it.  It's a legal strategy.  It may or may not

18     succeed.

19             Yes, Mr. Cepic.

20             MR. CEPIC:  I apologise for interrupting.  Just one correction in

21     transcript, this is page -- witness said, I will say in B/C/S

22     [Interpretation] I was told that at this trial I'm not supposed to

23     mention Mitar Vasiljevic.  Or, more precisely, I was instructed that at

24     this trial I would not be asked about Mitar Vasiljevic.  We can listen to

25     the tape also.

Page 762

 1             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Okay.  Thank you, Mr. Cepic.

 2             MR. ALARID:

 3        Q.   Is it true, ma'am, that you were instructed not to speak about

 4     Mitar Vasiljevic in this trial?

 5        A.   That is not correct and don't take that literally.  It was me who

 6     put -- spoke about Mitar Vasiljevic, but it was said to me that he is not

 7     important in this trial.  So I didn't go back to the statements I had

 8     already given.  Mitar Vasiljevic was not interesting to me and I was

 9     not -- I wasn't preparing to talk about him, and that's why I'm confused

10     by your question why I was walking up Pionirska Street, why?

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Alarid, I believe you are now belabouring

12     this point.

13             MR. ALARID:

14        Q.   Where were the people moving?

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Did you hear me?

16             MR. ALARID:  Actually I was reading.

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I said you are belabouring this point.

18             MR. ALARID:  Belabouring the point of the Pionirska Street fire?

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  No, Mitar Vasiljevic and what was said before.

20     Are you moving on to a different --

21             MR. ALARID:  I was, actually.

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Very well, yes.

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 763











11  Pages 763-767 redacted. Private session.















Page 768

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17                           [Open session]

18             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session.

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  How long are you going to take?

20             MR. CEPIC:  Less than one hour, maybe more.  I don't know yet.

21     It depends --

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  In that case, we'll adjourn until tomorrow.

23             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you very much.

24                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.42 p.m.,

25                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 29th day of

Page 769

 1                           August, 2008, at 8.50 a.m.