Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1041

 1                           Wednesday, 3 September 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 8.51 a.m.

 6                           WITNESS:  WITNESS VG-13 [Resumed]

 7                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Groome, please continue.

 9             MR. GROOME:  Thank you, Your Honour.

10                           Examination by Mr. Groome:  [Continued]

11        Q.   Witness VG-13, when we concluded your evidence yesterday, you

12     were describing for the Chamber the period of time when the group from

13     Koritnik was transferred from the Memic house to the Omeragic house.

14     During this transfer of the people, where was Milan Lukic?

15        A.   Milan Lukic was in the doorway of the house of Jusuf Memic.

16        Q.   Where was Sredoje Lukic?

17             MR. CEPIC:  Excuse me.

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Cepic.

19             MR. CEPIC:  Your Honour, we already have answer on that question,

20     imagine 80 -- 81, actually.

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Well, let's hear it again.  That's not something

22     to object to.  Let's move on.  There are many reasons why a question may

23     be asked twice.

24             MR. GROOME:

25        Q.   Where was Sredoje Lukic, please.

Page 1042

 1      A.   Since we were a large group of people having to leave the house of

 2   Jusuf Memic, we went in a file towards Adem Omeragic's house.  Edhem said -

 3   because the people from the group yelled that we had to flee if we could –

 4  Edhem said that we must not run away because Sredoje Lukic was following us.

 5        Q.   And where was --

 6        A.   Edhem Kurspahic.

 7        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

 8    A.   Mitar Vasiljevic met us also in the doorway of Adem Omeragic's house.

 9        Q.   And did there come a time when Mitar Vasiljevic did something

10     with respect to your mother-in-law?

11        A.   He pushed her away from the door.  I heard that from other people

12     who were closer to them.  He cursed her mother, and he pushed her away.

13     She was an old woman, around 70.

14        Q.   Was it dark at the time you were brought from the Memic house to

15     the Omeragic house?

16        A.   Yes, it was.

17        Q.   Was there any source of artificial light that you could see as

18     you were moving from the one house to the other?

19        A.   Well, there was street lighting, and there was lights from the

20     houses inhabited by Serbs.

21        Q.   And where were those houses in relation to the Adem Omeragic

22     house?

23        A.   Well, all of them were nearby, close to one another.

24        Q.   Were they visible on the video that we looked at yesterday?

25        A.   Well, you can see all the houses around, including other

Page 1043

 1     Omeragic's house, including Mujo Memic's house.  We can look at the

 2     picture.

 3        Q.   I will show you the pictures at the conclusion of your testimony,

 4     but I would like you now to tell us did there come a time when you were

 5     actually in a room in the Adem Omeragic house?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And where in the house was that room located?

 8        A.   On the lower floor.  On the ground floor.

 9        Q.   Can I ask you to describe for the Chamber what you remember about

10     the inside of that room.

11        A.   Well, I remember it well.  There was one cupboard at one end of

12     the room, and as far as I could see, there were streetlights outside, and

13     there were carpets stained with some sort of liquid that stuck to our

14     feet, and it exuded a smell.  We were choking on it.

15        Q.   The smell that you -- you experienced there, can you compare it

16     to any other smell that we might be familiar with here in the courtroom?

17        A.   I don't know whether you could be familiar with it, but it stank,

18     and we choked on it.  I don't know what kind of mixture it was, but it

19     stuck to our footwear.

20        Q.   Were there windows in the room?

21        A.   Yes, two windows.

22        Q.   Were there any lights on in the room?

23        A.   No.  The lights were not on inside, but there was light from the

24     other side of the street that reached us.

25        Q.   When the group from Koritnik was placed in that room, were there

Page 1044

 1     any other people in that room at that time?

 2        A.   Yes.  We found those people inside, but I don't know who they

 3     were.

 4        Q.   Were you able to identify them as either Muslims or members of

 5     the group that was placing you in the room?

 6        A.   I don't know.  I was too afraid to look.  I was afraid both for

 7     myself and my child.  I was only thinking of staying alive.  I saw them

 8     there, and I remember they were sitting down.

 9        Q.   Did there come a time when all of the people who travelled from

10     Koritnik were in the room?

11        A.   No.  Two girls got out somehow.  I don't know how they managed,

12     but they slipped out towards Babin Potok.  That's why they left that

13     night.

14        Q.   Aside from those two girls did there come a time when the

15     remainder of the group was inside the room?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   What was the approximate number of people in that room?

18        A.   Sixty-five, perhaps, 70.  I can't tell you exactly, but I know

19     that our group was 65.

20        Q.   I'd ask you now at this point to take us back to what occurred in

21     that room after all of the people from Koritnik were placed in the room

22     of the Omeragic house.

23        A.   Well, people were moaning, crying.  The elderly people who still

24     remembered the war said we could have our throats slit.  We could be

25     killed.  They were crying, screaming.  Milan Lukic --

Page 1045

 1             MR. ALARID:  Your Honour, not an objection to the questioning.

 2     We note that our LiveNote is not working.  It stopped at page 4, line 5.

 3     The one that we cannot manipulate, of course, it is still moving, and

 4     it's up to page 5.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  May I ask the technical experts to have a look

 6     at that.  Let us know whether we can proceed.

 7             The technician will come as soon as possible, so proceed.

 8             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, at this point the witness -- I believe

 9     the witness may mention a number of other witnesses who have protective

10     measures.  May I suggest that we go into private session?  I will ask the

11     witness the names of those people, and then I've made up another

12     pseudonym sheet that has the numbers of those witnesses, and if we could

13     mark that as an exhibit.  This would allow the witness to testify in open

14     session about her observations about all of these people.

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  Private session.

16                           [Private session]

17     [Part of Private Session made public by order of Trial Chamber]

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

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Page 1046

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20   (redacted)

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22   (redacted)

23             MR. GROOME:

24        Q.   VG-13, you've described the inside of the room.  Can I ask you

25     now to continue telling us what happened after all of the people were

Page 1047

 1     inside the room.

 2        A.   Well, after a short while Milan Lukic brought some sort of

 3     device, something like a bomb.  I saw a fuse, and he threw it at the door

 4     of the room.  It exploded.  People were screaming all around, of course.

 5     The carpets took fire immediately.  The fire was blazing.  Two people

 6     jumped out ahead of me, out of the window, Witness VG-18 and (redacted)

 7     VG-84.  The two of them jumped out.  I thought it was actually one cousin

 8     of mine, but it wasn't.

 9             A couple of minutes later, I pushed (redacted) VG-38.  At that

10     moment I must have been injured by shrapnel in my left leg above the

11     knee, but I didn't even feel it in all that panic.  It was only two days

12     later that I realised my leg was hurting.  I was unable to walk.

13             (redacted) I jumped out of the window.  Mr. Milan Lukic was

14     shooting at both windows, and Mitar Vasiljevic was giving him light with

15  a flashlight.  So when I jumped out, I landed right in front of him.  He was

16  only two or three metres away from me, and the bullet hit me in my left arm.

17             I thought at that moment that I was dead because I was getting

18     numb.  I started sliding towards the creek because the terrain went

19     downhill from the place I landed.  I started getting numb.  I realised my

20     head was not injured, but blood was flowing through -- from my left arm.

21     I kept -- I kept holding it with my other hand.

22             People inside and children were screaming inside the house.

23     There was a two-day old baby who that had been born in the woods, and

24     unfortunately it burnt to death.  It was Senad Kurspahic's child.

25             So I went through the brook.  I thought they couldn't find me if


Page 1048

 1     I went through the water, so I sat in the water for more than half an

 2     hour while the house was burning and people were crying, and at that time

 3     Jusuf Memic's house also got ablaze.  Roof tiles were landing near me in

 4     the brook and I thought somebody was throwing rocks at me.  When I looked

 5     back, I realized that the roof was burning.

 6             I went down an sewer manhole and landed in the sewer system where

 7     I spent three days.  I spent there three days without any food or drink,

 8     but that water probably saved me.  I drank waste water.

 9             On the third night, I emerged at our cattle market, went through

10     the woods and went to -- ended up in Kosovo Polje.

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you.  Mr. Groome, there would be matters

12     in that long narrative that require more specific questioning.

13             MR. GROOME:  I'll deal with that.  Thank you, Your Honour.

14        Q.   First I'd like to ask you some precise questions about what --

15     what occurred.  The --

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22                           [Open session]

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  The last -- the narrative should be made public.

25             MR. GROOME:

Page 1049

 1        Q.   The first specific question I would like you to answer is when

 2     the group first went into the room was the door left open or was the door

 3     closed to that room?

 4        A.   They had closed it.

 5        Q.   And what period of time elapsed between -- or was the door ever

 6     opened again?

 7        A.   Well, yes.  When they brought that device to throw it through the

 8     door, they open the door then.

 9        Q.   And what --

10        A.   Hasib Kurspahic -- I'm sorry.  Hasib Kurspahic was first at the

11     door, and the explosion blew him out of the door.

12        Q.   What period of time elapsed between the time that the door was

13     closed and the time that the door was then opened and the explosive

14     device thrown into the room?

15        A.   Perhaps just a little over half an hour.  It all happened within

16     half an hour.

17        Q.   And you've said "they."  Who are you referring to when you say

18     "they"?

19        A.   Milan Lukic and Mitar Vasiljevic.

20        Q.   And can you describe again precisely where Milan Lukic was and

21     where Mitar Vasiljevic were at the time this device was thrown into the

22     room?

23        A.   Milan Lukic was in the doorway while he was setting up that

24     device to explode when he noticed that VG-18 and VG-84 had jumped out of

25     the window.  They grabbed a rifle and started shooting at both windows.

Page 1050

 1        Q.   Now, how soon after this device exploded did the room -- or did

 2     items in the room catch fire?

 3        A.   Immediately.  It cause fire immediately.  The carpets that had

 4     been inundated with that liquid, it caught fire immediately.  You

 5     couldn't hear or see anything, and the carpets were burning like hell.

 6     It scorched my arm.

 7        Q.   How high were the flames inside that room?

 8        A.   Up to the ceiling.

 9        Q.   Did people's clothes catch fire?

10        A.   Certainly.  Everything was burning.  The screaming was deafening.

11     For those who haven't seen it or heard it, I can't describe it.  Those

12     were women, children, elderly people, innocent small children.

13        Q.   You mentioned that one of the children was a two-day-old baby.

14     What was the name of the baby?

15        A.   It did not have a name.  The woman gave birth in the woods on one

16     day, and the next day we set off.  It was a little girl born just two

17     days prior.

18        Q.   Why did she give birth to this little girl in the woods?

19        A.   Because she was fleeing from her home.  She had to.  We were

20     hiding in the woods.  We did not dare stay at our homes.  People were

21     already stricken by panic.

22        Q.   Can you ask to describe in a little greater detail how it was

23     that VG-84 and VG-18 were able to make their way out of this room?

24        A.   Well, VG-18 broke the window.  She shattered the windowpane, and

25     with her son she got out.

Page 1051

 1        Q.   And where was this window in relation to the creek that you've

 2     told us about?

 3        A.   On the lower side of the house, facing the creek.

 4        Q.   Now, can you describe for us in detail how you were able to

 5     escape this room?

 6        A.   Well, I decided I'd rather be killed than burnt to death, because

 7     there's no worse death than being burned alive.  I thought I'd rather die

 8     from a bullet.

 9        Q.   And so what did you do?

10        A.   I jumped out, landing not far from Mr. Lukic, from

11     Mr. Vasiljevic.  It was no more than two or three metres from them.  They

12     shot me in my arm.

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Was that through a door or through a window?

14     Yes.  Yes, I see that.  I was asking through what did you jump?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The window.

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thanks.

17             MR. GROOME:  And just for the record, Your Honour, the witness

18     displayed a scar that she still has from the bullet injury to her left

19     arm.  It was in the upper left arm on the bicep area.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Can she tell us more about the bullet, where it

21     came from or who fired.

22             MR. GROOME:

23        Q.   Can I ask you to answer Judge Robinson's question?  Are you able

24     to tell us from where the bullet came?

25        A.   From the left side of the house.  It was a rifle bullet.

Page 1052

 1     Mr. Milan Lukic was standing to the left, and I landed right here in

 2     front of him, in front of Mr. Lukic.  He shot me in the left arm.  And

 3     back inside the house a shrapnel got me just above my knee, my right leg.

 4        Q.   Was Milan Lukic the only person firing a gun outside the house?

 5        A.   Well, I only saw Mr. Lukic, and Mr. Mitar Vasiljevic was holding

 6     a flashlight.

 7        Q.   Didn't know where Sredoje Lukic was at this point in time?

 8        A.   As Edhem Kurspahic said that Sredoje Lukic was following us from

 9     that moment on I lost track of him.  I never thought of him again.  Back

10     then he was following us to prevent anyone from escaping.  I don't know

11     to this day how VG-78 and VG-101 managed to escape nevertheless, but the

12     two of them survived; and they never even got to the house, to that

13     inferno.

14        Q.   You've also mentioned a shrapnel injury in your leg.  Did that

15     occur before you jumped out the window?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Is it your belief that that was a result of the explosive device

18     that was detonated inside the room?

19        A.   It must have.  Blinded by fear I don't even know exactly how I

20     survived, how I jumped out of the window.  I still can't believe I

21     survived.

22        Q.   Did you -- did your son who you mentioned also escaped, did he go

23     out of the window before you or after you?

24        A.   Before me, because I pushed him out first.  He was young.  I

25     reckoned if he stays behind me he will burn to death.  He won't be able

Page 1053

 1     to manage alone.

 2        Q.   Did you see where he went after he left that room?

 3        A.   No, I didn't, although in all this trouble I was trying to look

 4     for him.  They fired after my son as well but thank God managed -- he

 5     managed to escape.

 6        Q.   Where --

 7        A.   Until the fall in Srebrenica.

 8        Q.   Where did you go after you came out of that window?

 9        A.   I jumped out of the window.  I rolled over into the creek, and I

10     walked down the creek through the water, and then I ended up in the

11     sewage.

12        Q.   Prior to going into the sewage area or canal, were you able to

13     look back and see what was happening at the house?

14        A.   I was not far away from the house, about 30 metres, so the

15     screams and the cries could be heard even beyond that.

16        Q.   And how long were you in a position where you could watch what

17     was happening at the Omeragic house?

18        A.   Well, I sat there for a short while in the water, more than half

19     an hour.  So while the water was up to my waist, and then I went

20     downstream to the sewage.  It's not far away.  I fell into a manhole, and

21     that is where I stayed.

22        Q.   During the time that you were able -- that you were in a position

23     to observe what was happening at the house, were you able to smell

24     anything?

25        A.   Of course, the burns on the humans, a terrible stench.  It was

Page 1054

 1     horrible.

 2        Q.   What was the last thing you remember hearing from that house

 3     before you were no longer able to observe it?

 4        A.   The last thing I remember I heard Halida, a 10-year-old girl.

 5     She was crying and calling to her mother, "Mother please don't give up on

 6     me."

 7        Q.   At this point in time did you know where your own son was?

 8        A.   No, I didn't.

 9        Q.   Did you believe he may have perished in that area that night?

10        A.   Well, I was thinking every minute that he might have been caught.

11     He was a young boy.  He didn't know where to go, so maybe he had been

12     killed, and I couldn't see him in the grass.  When I was in Gorazde, I

13     discovered that my child was in Srebrenica.  Then he walked to Zepa, so I

14     managed to see him in Zenica after the fall.

15        Q.   What period of time elapsed between the time of the fire and the

16     time that you learnt that your son survived the fire?

17        A.   It was a long time.  I didn't discover immediately that he had

18     survived because I thought he -- he had been killed.  When I threw him

19     out the window, I never saw him again.

20        Q.   What period of time elapsed between the time you saw him that

21     night and the time you were eventually reunited with him physically?

22        A.   I saw him on that night, and then I didn't see him again over the

23     four years, which is how long the war lasted.

24        Q.   Now, based upon your observations of this area and your knowledge

25     from the down of Visegrad, would you have any view as to whether that

Page 1055

 1     fire that you observed would have been visible from other areas in the

 2     town?

 3        A.   Since the house of Adem Omeragic is in the creek, the people

 4     living in the surrounding houses could see that the house was on fire,

 5     that people were being burned.  As for other locations, probably one

 6     could have seen the smoke.

 7        Q.   With respect to the -- the centre of town, would that have been

 8     an area where it would have been possible to see smoke from this fire?

 9        A.   The town centre a little bit -- is a little bit further from

10     Nova Mahala and Pionirska Street.  Had it been daylight, they would have

11     seen the smoke.  However, it was night-time.

12        Q.   Now, you said yesterday that while you had heard about

13     Milan Lukic prior to this night you had not seen him before.  How did you

14     come to know that one of the men who was present that night and

15     participated in this time had the name Milan Lukic?

16        A.   Because the neighbours of mine who perished knew him very well.

17        Q.   Was there a woman by the name of Kada Sehic in the house that

18     night?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Were you present when she had a conversation with Milan Lukic?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Did she refer to him by name?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Could you please tell us what it was, as best you recall, what

25     she said to Milan Lukic?

Page 1056

 1        A.   I remember very well that she asked him to let her put on her

 2     shoes, leather shoes.  He said, "You don't need them."  And somebody

 3     shouted from the group while we were going down the stairs, "Is that

 4     Milan Lukic?"  Then Sahid [as interpreted] said, "Yes.  He took away my

 5     husband Rasim and son Enver, nickname Kender."

 6        Q.   A person by the name of Jasmina Vila in the house that night?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And did she make any statement in your presence that indicated to

 9     you that she knew him to be Milan Lukic?

10        A.   No, she didn't say anything directly to me, but when Milan Lukic

11     was taking Jasmina Vila out that night, when she came back, she asked

12     Kada Sehic for a pill, but she didn't tell anything else.

13        Q.   Was there a man among the victims that night who went to school

14     with Milan Lukic?

15        A.   Well, he wasn't in our group.  Yes, there was a young man who

16     fled his home, survived, and his wife, Ismeta Kurspahic, died if the

17     fire.  They had been living together for 11 months.  And he told many

18     times how he went to school with Milan Lukic, and they were sitting

19     together in the classroom.

20        Q.   I just want to clarify.  The record records you as referring to a

21     person by the name of Sahid.  The person I asked you about is Kada Sehic.

22     The last name that I just said, is that the person that you were

23     referring to?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   How long a period of time elapsed over the entire course of these

Page 1057

 1     events from the first time you saw Milan Lukic that night until the last

 2     time you saw him that night?

 3        A.   Although it wasn't a long time, when they came to Jusuf Memic's

 4     house Mr. Milan Lukic and Milan Susnjar wanted to rob us, and whether it

 5     took an hour or so Mitar Vasiljevic and Milan Lukic were driving us from

 6     one house to another.

 7        Q.   So is it true that you had several occasions to see him over the

 8     course of these events?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Was the lighting adequate for you to see him?

11        A.   We could see him well before night fell, but there was also

12     artificial lighting.  It wasn't just a big distance not to be able to see

13     him.

14        Q.   Was there anything obstructing his face?

15        A.   No.  He was well dressed with a normal haircut.

16        Q.   Can I ask you at this point to look carefully around the

17     courtroom and tell us whether you see the person who you recognise as

18     Milan Lukic here in the courtroom.

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Can you please indicate who the person is that you recognise by

21     describing where they're sitting in the courtroom and perhaps the

22     clothing that they are wearing.

23        A.   Mr. Milan Lukic has a dark suit, a pink shirt, and pinkish tie.

24     That's my dear neighbour.

25        Q.   Now, can you tell us what were the acts that you observed

Page 1058

 1     Sredoje Lukic do over the course of what happened at Pionirska Street

 2     that night.

 3             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Cepic.

 4             MR. CEPIC:  Your Honour, this is a leading question.  The witness

 5     already answered she just heard from Edhem Kurspahic that Sredoje was

 6     present at that time.  This is a typical leading question and putting

 7     information which we did not heard up to now -- did not hear up to now.

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  The question is whether she could tell what were

 9     the acts that she observed Lukic do.  I don't see anything leading in

10     that.  She's simply to say what she saw him do during the course of what

11     happened at Pionirska Street.

12             Please answer the question.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sredoje Lukic was outside of the

14     house, and when we were to be driven from Jusuf Memic's house to

15     Omeragic's house, he escorted us.  I can't tell you anything else.

16     Frightened as I was, I wasn't looking at him, and I'm sorry that no one

17     else from these people survived who would be able to tell you more and a

18     better story than I can.

19             MR. GROOME:

20        Q.   What were the acts that you observed Milan Lukic do over the

21     course of this crime?

22        A.   When they took away our money and gold, Mr. Milan Lukic,

23     Milan Susnjar, and the others left when they made us strip naked and

24     dance, they left the house.

25        Q.   Can you list the things you saw Mr. Mitar Vasiljevic do over the

Page 1059

 1     course of this crime?

 2        A.   During these events, Mr. Vasiljevic was outside of the house.

 3        Q.   Now, returning to the point in time where you spent several days

 4     in the sewage system, did you ever lose consciousness during those times?

 5        A.   Yes.  I lost consciousness three times in the sewage.

 6        Q.   What was your physical condition?

 7        A.   Very bad.  I didn't have any drink or food, so you can only

 8     imagine what my condition was.

 9        Q.   And from what period of time did you not have anything to drink

10     or have food?

11        A.   Three days and three nights.

12        Q.   And what was the first thing you had an opportunity to eat?

13        A.   When somehow I managed to pull myself out of the sewage, I took

14     an onion from somebody's garden, and that is what I ate, but I had

15     terrible stomach problems.  And I also had a handful of unripe plumbs.

16        Q.   Did there come a time when you made yourself -- made your way to

17     the Muslim settlement of Kosovo Polje where you were assisted by some of

18     the residents there?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   While in Kosovo Polje, did you come to learn about what happened

21     to a man by the name of Stanko Pecikoza?

22        A.   While I was in Kosovo Polje, Rasim Husovic went to Stanko's

23     brother Mladjo to take us to Kladanj.  There were a lot of people, a lot

24     of refugees in Kosovo Polje.  He told us, "Come again tomorrow, and we'll

25     see what the situation will be."

Page 1060

 1             When he -- when Rasim Husovic went the next morning to see,

 2     Stanimir pointed the rifle at him and wouldn't let him cross the street

 3     which is dividing the Muslims and the Serb houses.  He said, "Don't go up

 4     there."  Stanko had been killed.  They were good friends and good

 5     neighbours.  He asked me, "Can you tell me where he was killed," and he

 6     said he was killed in Kremna by Milan Lukic.

 7             They brought him in a hearse.  I didn't ask any questions.  The

 8     man was probably dead.  He was buried.

 9        Q.   Was Stanko Pecikoza a Muslim or a Serb?

10        A.   He was a Serb who owned a sawmill, and it's still in operation.

11     I don't know whether it's run by his son or who.

12        Q.   And was he doing anything in respect to the Muslims in the area

13     in this period?

14             MR. ALARID:  Objection.  Calls for speculation.

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  She can say whether she knew whether he was

16     doing anything, and she can also provide the basis for her knowledge.

17             Mr. Groome.

18             MR. GROOME:

19        Q.   Were you aware of anything that Mr. Pecikoza was doing with

20     respect to Muslims during this period?

21        A.   Well, Husovic said that he had been transporting Muslims to

22     Serbia.

23        Q.   So Stanko Pecikoza, a Serb, was helping Muslims get out of

24     Visegrad; is that correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 1061

 1        Q.   Did there come a time when you did receive proper medical

 2     treatment for your injuries?

 3        A.   Yes.  In the morning I was first awakened by shots fired at the

 4     village of Cernica and Hamzici.  I was asleep on a veranda, but I jumped

 5     up.  It was approximately 5.00 in the morning.  I saw a man coming out of

 6     a barn.  I approached him, but he was waving his hands denying that he

 7     knew me and indicating that I should stay away from him because I was

 8     dirty, I was dishevelled.  And I told him, "Listen, we were expelled here

 9     on Sunday.  Can anyone help us?"  He then told me to go to Bakira's door,

10     to Bakira's house, and she will help you.

11             MR. GROOME:  If I might ask 175.1 through 175.3 I'll be using

12     them in a few minutes.

13        Q.   Can I ask you at this point to describe for the Chamber, if any,

14     permanent injuries you received this night.

15        A.   Well, yes, to my arm and to my leg.

16        Q.   And do they affect you in any way to this day?

17        A.   Well, yes.  I have pain in my back and my head from my left-arm

18     injury, and it particularly affects me when the weather changes.

19        Q.   What has been the impact of this crime upon your mental state?

20        A.   I was poorly.  I suffered trauma and stress.

21        Q.   And do you still suffer today from the effects of what happened

22     to you that night 16 years ago?

23        A.   Of course.  I'm taking handfuls of pills.  That's how I am.

24             MR. GROOME:  Could I ask that 65 ter number 175.1, this is a

25     still from the video that we looked at yesterday.

Page 1062

 1        Q.   VG-13, I'm going to ask you to make a few markings on this.

 2     Could I ask that it be zoomed down so that we see the entire picture.

 3             And could I ask the usher to assist the witness first in

 4     making -- indicating or writing VG-13 at the bottom so that we know it is

 5     you that has made these markings.

 6             It looks like there's more room on the top, so perhaps on the top

 7     of the ...

 8        A.   [Marks]

 9        Q.   Okay.  Does this still photograph from the 360 video, does it

10     show the path that the Koritnik group took from the Memic house to the

11     Omeragic house?

12        A.   Yes.  This slab wasn't here before.  This was a farm house, and

13     this is where the two girls managed to escape; and we passed through

14     here.

15        Q.   Before you make any markings on the -- on the photograph, so it's

16     your evidence that the concrete square slab that we see in front us was

17     not there.  What was the surface during that time period?

18        A.   It was a grassy piece of land.

19        Q.   The house that we can see on the left that appears white on the

20     bottom and appears to have different articles in front of it, was that

21     house there at the time?

22        A.   No, it wasn't.

23        Q.   Okay.

24        A.   There used to be Mujo Memic's house, which was sold, and this one

25     is a newly built house.

Page 1063

 1        Q.   And I ask you to draw an X through that house to indicate that it

 2     was not there on that night.

 3        A.   [Marks]

 4        Q.   And can I finally ask you on this diagram or on this photograph

 5     to draw a line indicating the path that the Koritnik group took from the

 6     Memic house to the Omeragic house.

 7        A.   [Marks].

 8        Q.   Thank you, VG-13.

 9             MR. GROOME:  Could I ask now that 65 ter number 175.2 now be

10     placed on the screen, and could I ask that this photograph be tendered as

11     an exhibit, including the markings of VG-13.

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, the photograph will become Exhibit

14     number P56.

15             MR. GROOME:  And if we could see 175.2.

16        Q.   In your evidence you mentioned some houses from which there was

17     streetlights illuminating some of the area by the Omeragic house.  Is

18     that area depicted in this photograph?

19        A.   Yes.  This was less than 20 metres as the crow flies, and there

20     was street lighting, and lights could be seen coming out from house.

21        Q.   Could I ask you to take the electronic pen in front of you and

22     once again put "VG-13" on the white area of the photo so that we know you

23     made the markings.

24        A.   [Marks]

25        Q.   And would you circle the houses that you're referring to, or the

Page 1064

 1     neighbourhood from which there was also light that night?

 2        A.   [Marks]

 3             MR. GROOME:  If I could ask the registrar to please call up

 4     06350585?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know about the street

 6     lighting.

 7             MR. GROOME:

 8        Q.   No, I'm not asking you about the precise area --

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Just a minute Mr. --

10             MR. GROOME:  Sorry.

11                           [Registrar and Trial Chamber confer]

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I'm told they can't call up anything else they

13     have to save this one first.

14             MR. GROOME:  I'm sorry.  I'm still learning the new system.

15        Q.   I'm not asking you to indicate the precise location of lights but

16     simply to circle in a large circle the area that you were referring to.

17        A.   From this side was street lighting, and there was lights in the

18     houses.

19        Q.   We can't see when you point the pen, so could I ask you to just

20     draw a large circle around the neighbourhood that you were referring to.

21        A.   [Marks]

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             MR. GROOME:  At this time I would tender that with the markings

24     of the witness as an exhibit.

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

Page 1065

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this will become Exhibit number

 2     P57.

 3             MR. GROOME:  And the document that I just gave the -- requested

 4     through the ERN number, the 65 ter number is 65 ter number 12, if that

 5     assists the registrar.

 6        Q.   On the -- on the left-hand portion of your screen, or both sides

 7     of your screen now, is a picture that is 65 ter number 12.  Do you

 8     recognise what's depicted in this picture?

 9        A.   On this photograph, on the window which is to the left when you

10     get into the house, there's a man in camouflage uniform.

11        Q.   Before I ask you specific questions about the photograph, could I

12     ask you to just generally tell us what's depicted in the photograph.

13        A.   I recognise it.  It's the destroyed house of Adem Omeragic, a lot

14     of rubble and rubbish outside it.

15        Q.   On this photograph can you see the door that you entered the room

16     where the fire was eventually set?  Before you mark it, if you can just

17     indicate whether you can or cannot.

18        A.   Well, the door is behind the pillar in this picture.

19        Q.   Could I ask you to -- to once again put VG-13 somewhere on the

20     photograph so that we know that the markings were made by you.

21        A.   [Marks]

22        Q.   Could I ask you to circle the approximate location of the door as

23     best you remember it from that night.

24        A.   The door is behind the pillar.

25        Q.   Perhaps then if you could circle the pillar you're referring to.

Page 1066

 1        A.   [Marks]

 2        Q.   Can you see the window that you jumped out of that night?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And could I ask you to circle that window.

 5        A.   [Marks]

 6             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour at this time the Prosecution tenders 65

 7     ter number 12 with the markings of Witness VG-13.

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  It is admitted as P58, Your Honours.

10             MR. GROOME:

11        Q.   And the final photograph I would ask you to take a look at is 65

12     ter number 175.4.

13             VG-13, this photograph was taken many years after the events that

14     you've described.  Are you able to make any observations about the inside

15     of this room?  Does anything look the same?  Does anything look

16     particularly different as you recall from the 14th of June in 1992?

17        A.   This is the room in Adem Omeragic's house.  Of course it didn't

18     look like this then.  It was nicely painted inside, tidy, but this is the

19     room in which fire was set to people and people were burnt to death.

20        Q.   I don't believe there's any need to make markings on it, so I

21     would simply tender 175.4 into evidence.

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  It is admitted as P59, Your Honours.

24             MR. GROOME:

25        Q.   Sometime after -- shortly after the fire did you speak to a

Page 1067

 1     policeman by the name of Huso Kurspahic about what happened?

 2        A.   Huso Kurspahic found me in Medjedja when I got out of the

 3     hospital, and he asked me after his family, but I had no strength.  I did

 4     not have the heart to tell him anything.  I did not want to worry him.  I

 5     thought he'd better hear from one else, not me.

 6        Q.   Did there come a time in 1998 when you gave a statement to the

 7     member of the Office of the Prosecutor?

 8        A.   I gave umpteen statements in Zenica, three times in Medjedja, in

 9     Gorazde.  I can't even remember who took these statements.

10        Q.   I'm going to ask that you be shown ERN number 00584517 and ask

11     you is this one of the statements that you gave, and if we could go to

12     the last page of that statement.

13             Do you remember during the course of giving one of these

14     statements recalling as many of the names of the victims as possible or

15     that you were able to recall?

16             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, could I just check whether this is

17     being broadcast, this -- okay.  Thank you.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19             MR. GROOME:  It's not being broadcast.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  It's not being broadcast.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  No, it's not.

22             MR. GROOME:  Could I ask that we go to page 7 of both the English

23     and the B/C/S.  I'd ask if we could scroll down to the bottom of the

24     page.

25        Q.   At the bottom of the page is this a list of the names of the

Page 1068

 1     victims that you provided the Office of the Prosecutor back in 1998?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Could I ask that we go to page 8.  And is this the remainder of

 4     the list of victims as best you were able to recall in 1998?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, in lieu of having the witness attempt

 7     to recall all of the different names and information about the victims

 8     here in court which might take considerable time, I would tender the

 9     statement as a -- as a record of the victims she believes perished in the

10     fire that night.

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  This will become Exhibit P60 under seal.

13             MR. GROOME:

14        Q.   And one of the final things I want to ask you is during your

15     preparation for the Vasiljevic case and for this case, were you asked to

16     look at a number of photos of the victims that perished in the fire that

17     night?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And did you recognise people in the photographs and indicate that

20     to members of the Office of the Prosecutor?

21        A.   Yes.

22             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, these photographs are 65 ter numbers 77

23     to 88.  I don't believe it will be controversial.  Rather than investing

24     the time it would take to call up each one individually, I wonder would

25     my colleagues agree or not object to the admission of the photographs of

Page 1069

 1     some of the victims of the fire.

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Alarid?

 3             MR. ALARID:  I'm sorry, Your Honour?  I was looking at something

 4     else.  I didn't hear --

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Counsel was inquiring whether you would have any

 7     objection to the photographs being admitted, the photographs of the

 8     victims of the fire, without the witness having to identify them

 9     individually.

10             MR. ALARID:  No objection, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  And Mr. Cepic?

12             MR. CEPIC:  No objection, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  We'll admit them.

14             MR. GROOME:  Perhaps Your Honour that I'll just ask that the

15     first one be brought up 65 ter number 77 so that the witness can record

16     that these are the photographs that she observed.  So could I ask that 65

17     ter number 77 ...

18             Is this one of the photographs that -- that you observed and

19     recognised the person?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And who is the person in this photograph?

22        A.   Jasmina Vila.

23             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I would at this time then tender

24     exhibit 77 to 88.  I would have no objection to them being tendered as a

25     single exhibit.  We can put them in a form that would make them suitable

Page 1070

 1     for a single exhibits.

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  This will become Exhibit P61, Your Honours.

 4             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, could I ask that we go into private

 5     session for my last few questions of the witness.

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Private session.

 7                           [Private session]

 8     [Part of Private Session made public by order of Trial Chamber]

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 1071











11  Pages 1071-1072 redacted. Private session.















Page 1073

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Witness, you told us that Milan Lukic shot you

11     on that night.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I'd like to ask you, how far was he from you

14     when he shot you?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, that pillar on Omeragic's

16     house, he was standing by that pillar.  He was not more than three metres

17     away from me.

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you.

19             JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT:  I have a question in relation to that.

20     You were saying that Mitar Vasiljevic was holding a flashlight and giving

21     light.  How far was he standing from you?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were standing one next to the

23     other.  Mitar Vasiljevic was providing him with light, and Milan Lukic

24     was shooting.  I really can't understand how I stayed alive.

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Alarid.

Page 1074

 1                           Cross-examination by Mr. Alarid:

 2        Q.   Good morning, VG-13.

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 4             MR. ALARID:

 5        Q.   Good morning, VG-13.

 6        A.   Good morning.

 7        Q.   My name is Jason Alarid, and I represent Mr. Milan Lukic here,

 8     and I'd like to ask you a few questions about today.  Can we do that?

 9        A.   Nice to meet you, yes.

10        Q.   Thank you, ma'am.  Nice to meet you too.

11             What I'd like to do first is I'd like to ask the court assistant

12     to pull up what's been marked as P58, please, and admit it.

13             Now, ma'am, looking at the -- the photograph, I noticed the

14     pillar and the shadow behind the pillar, but it doesn't appear that

15     there's a doorway.  It appears that there's a doorway a little bit

16     further to the right, in the shadows.  Can you explain the photograph,

17     please, with regards to that?

18        A.   The door is hidden behind the pillar.

19        Q.   Okay.  Now, with regards to the vegetation, this looks like a

20     very lush creek bed.  Is the vegetation similar to how it would be any

21     summertime in Visegrad?

22        A.   Well, it's overgrown now, and you see that not much cleaning has

23     been done around the house.  It could be even more overgrown.

24        Q.   Well, and I guess the question I really want to ask you is was it

25     similar overgrown vegetation leading down to the creek the night that you

Page 1075

 1     say you escape from the fire?

 2        A.   Yes.  It was grassy.  If it were not for the grass, I would not

 3     have survived.  They would have searched for me, and they would have

 4     found me.

 5        Q.   It appears that this it's not just grassy, that those are sort of

 6     bushes or shrubs a bit over a metre in height?

 7        A.   This undergrowth was not that big at the time, and nobody could

 8     have hidden behind it.

 9        Q.   Well, would it be fair to say that the grass and -- and growth at

10     the time helped hide you?

11        A.   Certainly as I jumped out of the window I kept rolling, rolling

12     down all the way to the creek, but I wasn't aware of what was happening.

13     I didn't do it on purpose.

14        Q.   Now, please could the court assistant bring up what's been listed

15     as P59, please.

16             Now, ma'am, looking at this photograph you testified on direct

17     examination that the room before was nice and painted?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Was there good flooring?

20        A.   Well, there was flooring.  Somebody lived in this house,

21     Adem Omeragic, his wife Sombula and their two children lived in that

22     room.

23        Q.   Now, maybe it's just me but it doesn't appear that the walls or

24     the ceiling are black and charred as if there had been large fire in this

25     room.  You can see black on the floor but not a lot of charcoal or other


Page 1076

 1     kinds of evidence of a large fire.

 2        A.   Yes, you can't see it in this picture.  You should have gone

 3     there at the beginning and see if there was charcoal or not, if it had

 4     been carbonised or not.  These walls had been washed.  A cistern, a water

 5     tank came in with water and washed it down.

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8                           [Open session]

 9             MR. GROOME:  I apologise, Your Honour.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

11             MR. ALARID:

12        Q.   You just testified that a large water tank came and washed it

13     down?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   You never returned to Pionirska Street after that date?

16        A.   I did at the very beginning when I had to go.  I won't tell you

17     when, but we did go when the documents were being collected.  You could

18     see it was burnt down completely.  It was carbonised.  There was traces

19     of charcoal indeed.

20        Q.   I will ask you to go to the Court and we can go into private

21     session if we need to, but please tell me when you returned and give a

22     date so as to put perspective to this.

23        A.   When the documents were being collected.

24        Q.   What documents, ma'am?

25        A.   For the court, for this honourable court here.

Page 1077

 1        Q.   When was that?

 2        A.   I can't remember the date because it has been many years ago.

 3        Q.   How long after the incident?

 4        A.   A year later?

 5        Q.   And when do you believe a truck came and washed down the room?

 6        A.   There's a local man from Visegrad, a Serb, who provided all the

 7     documents and said that the remains of bones were collected and placed in

 8     a small TAM truck.  The bones were driven away from there.  Nobody wants

 9     to say where, but somebody will be held responsible for all the people of

10     our village, our entire village that perished.  One day it will be told

11     where the bones were taken away, because there is a man of Serb ethnicity

12     who say the bones were collected the day after.  Not everything had been

13     burnt completely, and it was all taken away in a small TAM truck.  There

14     are other witnesses who will confirm that.  Nobody will tell me

15     otherwise, because I stayed alive through all of that.

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Alarid, we're going to take the break now.

17                           --- Recess taken at 10.21 a.m.

18                           --- On resuming at 10.44 a.m.

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Alarid.

20             MR. ALARID:  Thank you, Your Honour.

21        Q.   And, Ms. 13, please, do you still have the picture of the room on

22     the screen?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Now, you stated just before we went on the break that:  "There

25     will be held somebody -- but somebody will be held responsible for all

Page 1078

 1     the people of our village, our entire village that perished."  And

 2     obviously this is all the people from your village that made that trek

 3     earlier by foot?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And you want somebody to be held responsible, and at first you

 6     wanted Mitar Vasiljevic to be held responsible.  Isn't that true?

 7        A.   I don't want Mitar Vasiljevic to be held responsible.  He was

 8     present there, but he -- if he didn't do it, but I saw him with my own

 9     eyes what he did.  I can't accuse you of being there.  Can I say, sir,

10     you were the one who were there?  Of course I cannot.

11        Q.   But you could say --

12        A.   I didn't see you.

13        Q.   But you could say someone from your local village was

14     responsible?

15        A.   I saw our neighbours from the village when they attacked our

16     village to confiscate the weapons that they suspected we had.  As for

17     putting the house on fire, as for taking the gold and forcing us to strip

18     naked, these are the people who I saw there, and I will always stand by

19     it.

20        Q.   Coming back to the room, ma'am, that's looking here, you stated

21     that you had evidence that it had been cleaned afterwards.

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And you obtained this evidence that the room had been cleaned

24     less than a year or about a year after the incident?

25        A.   There's a Serb, as I said before, I'm not going to mention his

Page 1079

 1     name, who told Nedzib Sadikovic that a TAM came and collected the remains

 2     of the burnt and charged bones and taken to a location, and somebody will

 3     tell eventually where they were taken.

 4        Q.   But, ma'am, you testified when you testified you used the word

 5     "we," when we returned to get the papers from Visegrad, and when you said

 6     "we," I assumed you were included in at that group of people.

 7        A.   I didn't take any documents of mine.  Instead we went to the

 8     spot, to this house where people had been burnt so that the court and the

 9     whole world can see for themselves that the people of Koritnik died

10     there.  There was nothing left there.  So, sir, in any event, can you

11     dispute that this is not correct?

12        Q.   Ma'am, I'm actually trying to get what you remember and the

13     information from your mind, because, of course, I was not there.  So what

14     I am asking you still, though, is when did you return to get the

15     paperwork and show the world?

16        A.   A year later a number of people went there, including judges and

17     other educated people, to see for themselves on the spot and for the

18     whole world to see.  What you said just now, that you yourself didn't go

19     there, you don't have to believe me that I was there either.

20        Q.   No, ma'am.  But the question I have, though, is a year after this

21     incident Visegrad was still in a state of war.  Isn't that true?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And you testified earlier that after your escape you spent three

24     years away before even finding your son.  Isn't that true?  Four years.

25        A.   Nobody was there to wage war in Visegrad.  All the Muslims were

Page 1080

 1     expelled or killed.  There was -- were only Serbs.  Who was there then to

 2     fight the war?  I was taken in vehicles to see for myself where the

 3     incident took place.

 4             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, if I might assist in clearing up this

 5     confusion, and perhaps with this information Mr. Alarid can formulate

 6     another question to the witness.  Just prior to the Vasiljevic trial

 7     there was a mission conducted on which I was on, and this witness and one

 8     of the survivors from the Drina were brought in armoured vehicles into

 9     Visegrad, and they showed us the places where the crimes occurred.  That

10     occurred, I believe, in 2000.  I'm trying to get the exact date, but

11     perhaps there's some confusion about it.  That's the only mission that

12     I'm aware of where the witness was brought back in vehicles to -- to

13     Visegrad.

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you.  We'll hear from the witness.

15             MR. ALARID:  And the nature of the objection is sort of leading

16     in terms of hinting the witness.  I think the witness was very specific

17     on several occasions that she stated it was a year later.

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I don't think it was an objection, but I do

19     think perhaps it might not have been necessary, Mr. Groome.  The witness

20     can give the evidence.

21             MR. ALARID:

22        Q.   And so would it be fair to say that the war in Bosnia lasted for

23     several years after this incident?

24        A.   The war lasted for four years.  Not only in Visegrad but in the

25     whole of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

Page 1081

 1        Q.   And so it would have been impossible for you, a Muslim woman, to

 2     travel safely to Visegrad just a year after the incident.  Wouldn't that

 3     be true?

 4        A.   It's been many years ago.  I cannot remember what happened

 5     yesterday let alone seven years after my arrival here and 15 years since

 6     the war and the liberation, so don't expect me to give you the exact

 7     date.

 8             Anyway, I did go there.  I was brought there.

 9        Q.   And so would it be fair to say that you were brought there almost

10     ten years after the incident as opposed to one year after the incident?

11        A.   I don't know if I would be able to say such a thing ten years

12     later.

13        Q.   Now, you indicated that after -- well, and did this gentleman

14     provide a name for the person who cleaned the room?  Was that evidence

15     that was given to you?

16        A.   The Serb said to Nedzib Sadikovic after he asked him about his

17     wife Sadija, who was also burned in this house.

18        Q.   Now, just looking at the room I can't quite tell how big it is.

19     It appears to be a small room, but can you with more specificity tell me

20     how big it is?  How many metres by how many metres?

21        A.   Well, as far as I could see and assess, this is just one room and

22     it was four metres long, or let's say three metres wide.  This is where

23     Omeragic and his daughter Sombula and her two daughters were living.  He

24     bought the plot from Jusuf Memic and he built a house there.

25        Q.   But I note there are two floors above this house.  This room only

Page 1082

 1     seems to have one entrance.

 2        A.   Yes, of course.  There's one entrance, and there were two

 3     storeys.

 4        Q.   And the roof of this room and the walls are all concrete;

 5     correct?

 6        A.   No, not concrete.  It's plaster.  If it had been concrete, the

 7     walls wouldn't fall off.

 8        Q.   Well, but the interesting thing is, ma'am, is that it appears

 9     that the ceiling is concrete, and yet you testified earlier that the

10     entire house began to burn and then even the other house caught fire as

11     well where you had been staying earlier.

12        A.   This fire couldn't spread to Memic's house.  It was set ablaze

13     after this catastrophe, and Jusuf Memic's house, his roof burnt.  Only

14     walls remained, and later on it was looted.

15        Q.   Well, but would it be fair to say that you wouldn't have been

16     able to witness any of that because the ravine that you retreated to is a

17     very deep ravine?  Isn't that true?

18        A.   The creek after Omeragic's house was five to six metres long.  I

19     hid myself under an elder bush.  And you can -- you can walk only 20

20     metres before you reach the ravine, and all the sounds, all the cries

21     coming from the people could be heard.  I'm sorry, sir, but you cannot

22     deny that I wasn't there, and you cannot convince me that I didn't live

23     through this, that all these people perished in the fire.  I know that

24     it's your duty to defend, but it is my duty to say what I know.

25        Q.   And, ma'am, I'm not asking you or telling you that you weren't

Page 1083

 1     there, but what I'm asking you is what you could really see versus what

 2     you heard or assuming because you heard it from somebody else.  I really

 3     just want to know what you could see.  And I didn't ask you what you

 4     could hear.  I asked you what you could see.  And so what I'm saying is

 5     isn't it true because the ravine is so deep and there is a lot of

 6     vegetation, that it would be difficult to see the Memic's house from your

 7     vantage point in the ravine?

 8        A.   This is a two-storey house including a loft that's Jusuf Memic's

 9     house.  All the street lighting was on, and I wasn't far away from

10     Jusuf Memic's or Adem Omeragic's houses.  This is always a compact area.

11             MR. ALARID:  Can the Court --

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  About how far were you from Memic's house?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.  About 40 metres from

14     the house to the ravine where the creek is.

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  Thank you.

16             Mr. Alarid.

17             MR. ALARID:

18        Q.   And to get a better view of that, maybe we could bring up P56,

19     please.

20             Now, in this photograph you indicate that the Memic house is

21     where you drew the blue line from, and that's the path that you followed;

22     correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And the other Memic house is the one that sort of has a yellowish

25     plaster immediately across from the way from the white Memic house.

Page 1084

 1     Isn't that true?

 2        A.   Yes, yes.

 3        Q.   And you state that this three-storey structure with a cross

 4     marked on it was not in place at that time; correct?

 5        A.   Yes, yes.

 6        Q.   But would it be -- would it be fair to say that just even the

 7     line that you drew from the front door of the Memic house to where it

 8     goes off the screen is just 40 metres, maybe a little more?

 9        A.   This is a shortcut between Omeragic and Memic's houses.  However,

10     the creek where I went I think is about 40 metres away.

11        Q.   Well, maybe a better perspective is back to P57, please.  Is this

12     P57, or is P57 -- oh.

13             Now, ma'am, this is a picture of the ravine in which the creek is

14     in the bottom of that ravine.  Isn't that true?

15        A.   I don't have the photograph in front of me.

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Can that be checked into?  Thanks.

17             There is a technical problem.  The technicians will be here

18     shortly, so perhaps you can move on to something else -- I understand

19     it's now ready.

20             MR. ALARID:  Well, I do have the photo, Your Honour, so ...

21        Q.   Can you see the photograph now, ma'am?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Now, was it -- was the vegetation in the bottom of the creek bed

24     similar back in 1992 as it is in this photograph?

25        A.   Yes.  The grass was green.  The house wasn't as overgrown as it

Page 1085

 1     is here.

 2        Q.   Well, and understood, but as the property goes down into the

 3     ravine, there wouldn't be much incentive for the homeowner to mow that or

 4     cut that down, so is it fair to say that the ravine was overgrown even if

 5     it wasn't right next to the home?

 6        A.   Yes.  This is the bush where I rolled underneath, and two or

 7     three metres below that is the ravine where I hid.

 8        Q.   Now, two or three metres.  Are you saying that ravine is only two

 9     to three metres deep?

10        A.   No, no.  It's from the elder bush where I fell.  It's two or

11     three metres from the bush, and it was about one and a half metres deep,

12     and this is where I hid myself in the grass.

13        Q.   Now, you indicated on your direct examination where you marked

14     the little circles on the homes and then you made a big circle was the

15     area in which some light came from?

16        A.   Yes, the street lighting.

17        Q.   I don't see any utility poles for there to be streetlights

18     mounted to them, nor do I see anything mounted to the homes, and I'm

19     wondering, weren't you saying that this was simply light showing through

20     windows?

21        A.   There were lights on in front of the houses and there is the

22     street lighting.  This is called the Glavica neighbourhood.

23        Q.   But yet even though the Glavica neighbourhood, you testified on

24     direct examination that those lights were only 20 metres away, and it

25     seems much further than 20 metres.  Wouldn't that be true?

Page 1086

 1        A.   Not even 20 metres if you went there look at it, and you can see

 2     it here.  There is five or six metres between houses.  When I exited from

 3     the sewage, I was on the veranda of this house here where the greenery

 4     is.

 5             MR. ALARID:  Could the court assistant assist the witness in

 6     marking the photograph?  She's made several references to places.

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  What is it that you wish her to mark?

 8             MR. ALARID:  She just indicated that she exited from the sewage

 9     on the veranda of a house here where the greenery is, and so that would

10     be the first reference point, I think, she indicated.

11        A.   Here behind there's onion plots, and I remember eating an onion;

12     and I went directly here.  This is all very close area.  You can measure

13     it in paces, not in kilometres.

14        Q.   Well, I'm actually just trying to measure it in metres.  You

15     indicate with a red line coming up the hillside on the far side of the

16     ravine.  Are you saying that you went to the veranda of the house in the

17     far left view of the photograph?

18        A.   This is the house where the entrance is on the lower storey.  I

19     thought I could sleep there, but I was afraid to sleep because I thought

20     they would catch me.  This is the entrance here, and there are another

21     two storeys.

22        Q.   And this is three days after the incident that you end up on the

23     veranda of this home?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Isn't it true that the sewage outlet is more than a 150 metres

Page 1087

 1     away from the Omeragic house?

 2        A.   It's not so far away from Omeragic's house.  It leads to the Usce

 3     restaurant behind the ravine.  It's connected, the restaurant and the

 4     River Drina.  And I descended down to the Drina, and I mistook a tree for

 5     a guard, so I had to go back uphill because I was I was walking in a

 6     crouching position; and I this is how I went back, barefoot, so I arrived

 7     at the top of the ravine where I had been earlier; and I stayed there a

 8     third night because I was trying to find a way out.  On the third night I

 9     managed to get out and go through hedges to Kosovo Polje, because I was

10     afraid to use the road.

11        Q.   How far is it away from Glavica to the Omeragic house?

12        A.   Omeragic's house is five or six metres from the creek, because I

13     rolled over like a ball after I had within wounded.  That applies to all

14     the rest, all the other houses.  They are nearby.  It's not five

15     kilometres.  It's only five to six metres.

16        Q.   Now, you had just indicated just now that you had come back.  Did

17     you use the same route that you had written in red to come back?

18        A.   I went back after I had gone to the Usce restaurant through the

19     sewage leading 500 metres to the Drina.  When I exited the sewage, I did

20     not take this route which I marked, because I proceeded during the night

21     to Kosovo Polje.

22        Q.   Now I'd like to go back to -- I believe it's P58, please.  You're

23     right.  Your Honour, I'd ask that this be marked as a Defence exhibit and

24     entered into evidence before we change and lose the diagram?

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

Page 1088

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  This will become Exhibit 1D28.

 2             MR. ALARID:

 3        Q.   Now, ma'am, while they're pulling the new picture up, what I ask

 4     you is it didn't seem to me that the lights from these windows would

 5     provide a great deal of illumination to the ravine and the house across

 6     the creek.  Would that be fair?

 7        A.   It cannot provide substantial illumination, but it was enough for

 8     a person to be able to see normally.

 9        Q.   See normally, but it was still probably pretty dark and shadowed.

10     Isn't that true?

11        A.   No, it wasn't very dark.

12        Q.   Now, you indicated that when you were being shot at, the person

13     that shot you was only three metres away?

14        A.   Yes, three metres.

15        Q.   And the gentleman with the flashlight was right next to him?

16        A.   They were standing side by side by the pillar.

17        Q.   And the flashlight was pointed at you?

18        A.   At the windows.  There were shots fired at one window and at

19     another.  While Milan was shooting at one window, I jumped out the other

20     because I was escaping the flames.  The flames were behind me.  I didn't

21     know where to go.

22        Q.   Where was Milan Susnjar?

23        A.   He wasn't there with us.  He had stripped us earlier in

24     Jusuf Memic's house and mistreated us and abused us, but he wasn't over

25     here.

Page 1089

 1        Q.   If I were to tell you that your son testified that he was

 2     immediately outside the window, would he be mistaken?

 3             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I objection to that question.

 4     Clearly's he entitled to make that submission to the Chamber in

 5     evaluating her credibility, but is it really for this witness to judge

 6     the credibility of her own son?  It seems a perfectly appropriate

 7     question to ask her whether she saw Milan Susnjar but it seems

 8     inappropriate to ask her to give an opinion with respect to her own son's

 9     testimony.  That's for the Chamber.

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  But he could ask her whether she could be

11     mistaken.

12             MR. GROOME:  I believe the appropriate question would be is it

13     possible she's mistaken, but to confront her with the evidence of her son

14     again I submit that's argument for the final submissions, and the Chamber

15     will have to consider contradictions between the evidence and make its

16     own evaluation of the individual witnesses.

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I believe he can ask you whether she can be

18     mistaken.  Put it to her that way, Mr. Alarid.

19             MR. ALARID:  Yes, sir.

20        Q.   Is it possible that you're mistaken about Milan Susnjar being

21     there?

22        A.   All of us who were in that group, nobody can say exactly the same

23     thing, because they haven't seen all of them, the same things.  One saw

24     one part, another saw another part.  Milan Susnjar was there.  Back in

25     that other house he stripped us naked.  In this other place I -- I did

Page 1090

 1     not see him.

 2        Q.   But you testified that you jumped out the window immediately or

 3     very quickly after your son.  Isn't that true?

 4        A.   Two or three minutes after my son, because I couldn't jump

 5     straight after him because of the shooting.

 6        Q.   But regardless, the windows provided the only exit to this room.

 7     Isn't that true?

 8        A.   The windows were the only exit for those who were able to take

 9     it, but this window next to the first one, I couldn't reach it because

10     there were other people crowded there.  And when this man turned away the

11     rifle from this window, I jump out of it landing straight in front of

12     Milan Lukic.

13        Q.   Now, the person with the flashlight, was the flashlight pointed

14     right at you?

15        A.   He was shining the light on the windows.  I don't know whether he

16     was shining it straight at me.  Maybe he didn't shine it at me directly,

17     because if he had, maybe they would have killed me there and then.

18        Q.   When someone is using a flashlight and you're looking at that

19     person, isn't it true that it tends to make the area behind the

20     flashlight very dark?

21        A.   Do you mean to say that Mitar Vasiljevic wasn't there?

22        Q.   Is it possible that you're mistaken that Mitar Vasiljevic was

23     there?

24        A.   No, I was not mistaken.

25        Q.   And you're not mistaken because you've known Mitar Vasiljevic for

Page 1091

 1     a very long time and knew him on site.  Isn't that true?

 2        A.   I did know him as a waiter.

 3        Q.   You knew him as a citizen of Visegrad, a Serbian, who served

 4     Muslims and socialised with Muslims?

 5        A.   Certainly we all socialised regardless:  Mitar Vasiljevic,

 6     Milan Lukic, Djuro Petar; we didn't pay attention to the origin of names.

 7     We all lived fine up until the war.  How the communities began to hate

 8     each other after the war I can't understand.

 9        Q.   But other than your involvement in this, when did you start to

10     hear stories about Mitar Vasiljevic and Milan Lukic?

11        A.   There was nothing to hear.  Mr. Milan Lukic came to the door.

12     All these other people who had perished in the fire knew him, as well as

13     Mitar Vasiljevic and Milan Susnjar, nicknamed "Lalco."  They all knew

14     them.  I see you sir, now, here in the courtroom.  Five years later,

15     wherever we meet, I will recognise you.  I will tell you, "Good

16     afternoon, sir, you are so-and-so."  I still have a good memory as far as

17     I'm able to see although I'm a peasant with only four years of school.  I

18     have lived through all of this, and I still have some schooling.  Even if

19     I didn't, I know what I know.  You cannot convince me that all of what

20     I'm saying is not true and that I had not lived through it.

21        Q.   Ma'am, that's not what I asked you.  I asked you when did you

22     hear other stories about Mitar Vasiljevic and Milan Lukic amongst either

23     the Muslims before or after this ordeal?

24        A.   Well, the people who occupied other positions knew that

25     Milan Lukic and Mitar Vasiljevic had been killing people around the

Page 1092

 1     villages.  They were mistreating people, abusing them, taking girls to be

 2     raped before we were taken -- before we were chased out to Visegrad.

 3        Q.   And so it must have hurt you to know these citizens were having

 4     these stories told about them, including such violence against your

 5     people.

 6        A.   Certainly the people were seized by panic and fear.  They went to

 7     hide in the woods, leaving their homes.  Everything was destroyed.

 8     There's not a single house standing.  There's no one -- nothing to come

 9     back to.  Houses will be rebuilt, but the people will not come back, at

10     least not those who lost their lives.

11        Q.   And would -- would it be fair that if you were able to hold them

12     responsible here for that incident, that is like holding them responsible

13     for the other things that you had heard?

14        A.   Sir, I didn't come here to accuse anyone.  I came only to tell

15     what I have lived through.  The court is here to decide and to decide

16     what is right and what is wrong.

17             MR. ALARID:  Could we have P59 back, please.

18        Q.   Now, looking at this picture again, isn't it true that we can't

19     see the window that you escaped from because it is off to the left and

20     obstructed by the edge of the photograph?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   But that second window is only about two metres from the one that

23     we can see?

24        A.   I don't know whether it was two metres or there were two windows

25     immediately side by side.

Page 1093

 1        Q.   Well, you described this room as -- as -- and I was guesstimating

 2     from your estimate that this was about a three-by-four metre room.

 3        A.   I didn't measure them.  I just said roughly.

 4        Q.   Now, to put 70 people in this room it would be very, very

 5     crowded.  Isn't that true?

 6        A.   Yes.  Yes.  That's why I stepped on people's feet to get to the

 7     window to get some fresh air, because I realised immediately either they

 8     will burn us to death or take us out to slit our throats.  Those who

 9     still remembered the war, unlike me, realised immediately what would

10     happen, and they kept telling us, "You, young people who can, run for

11     it."

12             I pushed my way together with my child to the window, and as the

13     explosion happened, Mitar Vasiljevic and Lukic were at the corner of

14     house and two people jumped out before me.  I pushed my child out, and I

15     followed as soon as I can barefoot.  I had lost my shoes in pushing

16     through the crowd, so I jumped out barefoot.

17        Q.   Ma'am, I don't want to interrupt you because I know you're

18     speaking but that wasn't necessarily the question that I'd ask you, and

19     so I'd ask you please so that this doesn't take too long and

20     inconvenience you too long that you answer my questions as I ask them.

21     Can we do that?

22        A.   I can.

23        Q.   Now, as you had to push your way through people, how many people

24     did you have to push your way through to get to the window?  You said you

25     stepped on feet.

Page 1094

 1        A.   Well, when you cram 70 people in that room, you have to push

 2     through how many people?  Through all those who were in front of me.  Now

 3     when you get into a small room you have to push your way through to get

 4     to the window, don't you?

 5        Q.   Yes, ma'am, you do.  So when you're at the window all the people

 6     you had to push through now block your sight between yourself and the

 7     front door.  Isn't that true?

 8        A.   No, not necessarily.  It doesn't block the sight.  They saw me

 9     well, too, and they are telling me, "Why are you pushing," and I said I

10     wanted to take some fresh air.  It wasn't really very dark.  There was

11     lighting outside and there was lighting from the houses nearby.  There

12     was not a lot, but it was enough to see.

13        Q.   There was no light source inside the room; correct?

14        A.   There was no light bulb inside.  Nobody turned on the light,

15     because nobody thought of lighting the light bulb.  They were too afraid

16     to do that.

17        Q.   And so the only light source would be ambient light from homes

18     across the ravine or whatever could come through the front door into a

19     darkened basement.  Isn't that true?

20        A.   Through the windows, not the door, because these windows were

21     facing the lights, and the entrance is on the other wall.

22        Q.   And there were several people between -- once you were able to

23     get yourself next to the window, this was before the fire started;

24     correct?

25        A.   Before the fire started, I was already by the window with my son.

Page 1095

 1     When the fire started, two witnesses that I named earlier jumped out,

 2     because that lady shattered the windowpane.

 3        Q.   The question I asked you though is all the people that you pushed

 4     through are now blocking your view to the door.  Isn't that true?

 5        A.   Well, all we expected from that door was someone to come in and

 6     kill us.  We were only looking at the windows to see if we could jump

 7     out.  If we dare jump out, because if we don't take the risk, we'll burn

 8     alive.

 9        Q.   But the people between you and the door blocked your view of the

10     door.  Isn't that true?

11        A.   I wasn't even looking at the door.  I was focusing on the window

12     in order to save my life and my child's life.

13        Q.   And isn't it true you could not see the face of the person who

14     open the door and put something inside to catch it on fire because it was

15     impossible, because you were looking at the window, that there was not

16     enough light come in and all the people that you had pushed through were

17     now in between you and blocking your view of the door?

18        A.   The people were all sitting down, sir.  Those were elderly

19     people, infirmed people, children.  They had all sat down.  Some women, I

20     hope the Court will excuse me, had to breast feed, give some bread to the

21     children, and the door opened when Mr. Milan brought the device.

22     Everybody saw him.  I was not the only one who saw him.  Everybody saw

23     him.

24        Q.   If I were to tell you that Mr. Kurspahic, before he passed away,

25     said that the door blew open as if --

Page 1096

 1             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour.  I have the same objection.  I mean,

 2     the appropriate question would be isn't it a fact that the door blew open

 3     or something the same factual assertion, but to start putting witnesses

 4     up against each other and -- I think is an inappropriate way of posing

 5     the question.

 6             MR. ALARID:  I think she may have indicated that she spoke with

 7     the witness afterwards, but I may be mistaken as to that.

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Spoken with Kurspahic?

 9             MR. ALARID:  The older Kurspahic, the father, passed away in

10     1996, I believe.

11             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, the Kurspahic that she spoke to was the

12     Kurspahic that testified here a few days ago.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  What was the question?

15             MR. ALARID:  The question was if -- if there was testimony

16     regarding the elderly Kurspahic, that he was blown in and the door was

17     blown open as if by a rocket, could she be mistaken.

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Could you be mistaken?  Could the door have been

19     blown open by a rocket, as if by a rocket, Witness?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What rocket are you talking about?

21     Come on.  Come off it.  Nobody would have survived, although I don't know

22     much about ammunition.  Rockets down planes.  The whole house would have

23     been destroyed with us in it.

24             MR. ALARID:

25        Q.   Ma'am, I was merely referring to what information another

Page 1097

 1     survivor indicated.

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  She has answered.  Please move on.

 3             MR. ALARID:

 4        Q.   Now, you did speak that you -- you did indicate that you spoke to

 5     his son, Huso Kurspahic, afterwards; correct?

 6        A.   Yes, we did see each other later, but I wouldn't say we had much

 7     of a conversation.

 8        Q.   You know that he was a police commander for the Muslims at that

 9     point.  Isn't that true?

10        A.   Yes.  He worked on the police force.  Not only he but some Serbs

11     did as well.

12        Q.   But I just want to know about your knowledge of Huso.

13        A.   He was a neighbour.  Our houses were very close together.  We all

14     lived as one community, so I know where he worked.

15        Q.   And as the duty of a police officer when he spoke to you as a

16     survivor, did he take a statement?

17        A.   He took some notes briefly because I wouldn't tell him the first

18     time what had actually happened to his sisters and his parents.  He took

19     some notes, but I wasn't looking at him.  He did ask me after his family,

20     but I wouldn't tell him then that they had all died.

21        Q.   Did he ever reduce a statement to writing so that you could

22     review it and sign it about the crimes of that night?

23        A.   I did not sign anything for him.  Whether he wrote some more I

24     wouldn't be able to tell you.

25        Q.   Now let's talk about describing the perpetrators.  What was

Page 1098

 1     Mitar Vasiljevic wearing?

 2        A.   A black hat and a black suit when he came to Jusuf Memic's house.

 3     And when he came to that house he would come barefoot.  That's by day.

 4     And he also had a black raincoat.

 5        Q.   And so this is how you remember him during the day when he handed

 6     Mr. Memic the note that --

 7        A.   That's how I remember him.

 8        Q.   And that note was purported to preserve your safety?

 9             MR. GROOME:  Just so the record is correct, I believe the

10     evidence is the note was handed to Mr. Mujo Halilovic and not Mr. Memic.

11             MR. ALARID:  I stand corrected.

12        Q.   But the note though was for the safety of the occupants of the

13     home?

14        A.   Mr. Mitar Vasiljevic came and said that we should put up there

15     until the morning when we would be taken to Kladanj.  He took out a small

16     flask and offered Mr. Halilovic a shot of brandy, and he also handed a

17     piece of paper saying, "Don't worry, you'll be safe."

18        Q.   How was Mitar dressed at night?

19        A.   That night he was again wearing a black suit.

20        Q.   Still barefoot?

21        A.   I couldn't see whether he was barefoot that night, but he was

22     barefoot when he came that day.

23        Q.   Still black cowboy hat?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And how was the person you believed to be Milan Lukic, how was he

Page 1099

 1     dressed?

 2        A.   He had a camouflage uniform.

 3        Q.   What colour?

 4        A.   Green-brown camouflage military uniform.

 5        Q.   And how about the other Milan?

 6        A.   The other Milan, Susnjar, nicknamed "Lalco" was wearing civilian

 7     clothes.

 8        Q.   And what about Sredoje?

 9             MR. CEPIC:  Objection, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Just a second.  Yes.

11             MR. CEPIC:  We already received the answer that witness did not

12     see by her eyes Sredoje Lukic, during the direct examination.

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Did you see Sredoje, Witness?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sredoje was around the house, and

15     Edhem Kurspahic saw him.

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  You did not see him?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not.  There was Bosko Djuric,

18     Sredoje Lukic, Milan Susnjar, Mitar Vasiljevic.  In fact, I'm sorry,

19     Milan Lukic and Milan Susnjar.  And there were others whom I couldn't

20     know.

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Alarid, continue.

22             MR. ALARID:

23        Q.   And so you don't know what Sredoje was wearing at any time during

24     the day is what you're saying?

25             MR. CEPIC:  We already have a clear answer on this question, Your

Page 1100

 1     Honour.  Thank you.

 2             MR. ALARID:  When I agreed she indicated she didn't see him at

 3     night, but I think she indicated she saw him earlier in the day.

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, that's a different time.  Let the witness

 5     answer a question.

 6             MR. ALARID:

 7        Q.   So is it true you can't remember?

 8        A.   Well, as soon as other people saw him it means they did not make

 9     it up.

10        Q.   So you just don't remember.

11        A.   I remember everything that I stated as I stated it.  What I'm

12     saying is that if the other people saw him, they were not lying because

13     they knew very well who is a next door neighbour, who is from Uzice, who

14     is from where.

15        Q.   What was Bosko wearing?

16        A.   Civilian clothes.  He worked as a taxi driver in Visegrad.

17        Q.   You said there were other people present.  How many?

18        A.   I didn't count them.

19        Q.   What were they wearing?

20        A.   Some were in civilian clothes.  Some were in camouflage uniform.

21        Q.   How many total people there that weren't of the victims of this

22     tragedy?

23        A.   I just told you I didn't count them.

24        Q.   Give me a range, please.  I won't ask you to be specific.

25        A.   Five, six.

Page 1101

 1        Q.   Including the five that you've named, or five or six in addition

 2     to the five you've named?

 3        A.   In addition.

 4        Q.   So there's a total of 10 to 12 people there during this time is

 5     what you're saying now?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Where were the other people located, generally?

 8        A.   Around the house.

 9        Q.   If there were only two ways out of the house, through the windows

10     and through the doors, why would they need to be on the other side?

11        A.   So that people wouldn't escape.

12        Q.   Were they armed?

13        A.   Those that I saw, they were armed.  I suppose the others were,

14     too, because nobody went around without a rifle.

15        Q.   Now, isn't it true that you'd never seen Milan Lukic before that

16     day?

17        A.   Before that day I did used to see him around the town, sometimes

18     on a bus, although he worked in Serbia.

19        Q.   When was the last time you saw him before June of 1992?

20        A.   I cannot remember the exact date, but I used to see him when we

21     were sitting in a hotel.

22        Q.   What hotel?

23        A.   The new hotel called Panos.

24        Q.   When did you see him at the new hotel at Panos?

25        A.   I cannot recall the exact date, but I would see him when I would

Page 1102

 1     come from the field.  Our group would stop by to have a drink and dress.

 2     Mitar was a waiter.  It's his colleague and a neighbour.

 3        Q.   And you knew this how?

 4        A.   How did we know?  Well, Visegrad is not New York.  You know your

 5     neighbours.

 6        Q.   How many years before the war, if it was that long, did you see

 7     Milan at the Panos?

 8        A.   I didn't see him too often before the war because I was working

 9     in the field, but we did run into each other.

10        Q.   As specific as you can.  I'm not asking for a date, but it would

11     be nice if we could get a month and a year or a season and a year.  Can

12     you tell us?

13        A.   I cannot remember the date or the month or the year, because I

14     didn't make a mental note of when I met someone knowing that I would one

15     day come here to tell you when and where I met these people, but we did

16     meet.

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  And how many times did you see him at the hotel?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Within two or three months when we

19     would go to the restaurant.  It wasn't a habit of ours to go to

20     restaurants frequently, so that is when I saw.

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  So do I understand, then, that you saw him at

22     the hotel over a period of three months, at the restaurant?  Do you have

23     any recollection of how many times you actually saw him at the hotel or

24     the restaurant?

25        A.   Well, once in three or four months.  We would either meet in town

Page 1103

 1     on Wednesdays.

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I was talking about the hotel.  You told us that

 3     you saw Milan at the hotel, and I was trying to find out from you was it

 4     once?  Was it one time you saw him at the hotel or twice or three times?

 5     Just how many.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, twice a year we would see

 7     each other in passing.

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Was that at the hotel or somewhere else?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the hotel.

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  Now, do you remember what year that was?

11     It may be difficult, but do you have any -- any idea as to when that was?

12     Or if you don't remember the exact year, how many years before 1992.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I cannot remember exactly

14     either the year or the date.  I wasn't thinking about it.  You just meet

15     a person, pass by them, say hello.  So I cannot remember the date.

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Alarid.

17             MR. ALARID:

18        Q.   To follow up on the Judge's question, ma'am, was there a formal

19     introduction?

20        A.   No, because I knew Milan from before, so there was no need for

21     anyone to introduce him by saying, "This is our neighbour Milan Lukic,"

22     or Mitar Vasiljevic, or someone else.

23        Q.   Well, I just want to focus on how you knew Milan Lukic before.

24        A.   I lived in the village of Koritnik for 20 years.  My children

25     went to school there.  We attended dances.  I know the whole county and

Page 1104

 1     all the villages.

 2        Q.   Yet isn't it true that the village that Milan comes from is over

 3     20 kilometres away by car or driving?

 4        A.   Maybe from the town, but from the village of Koritnik it's not

 5     such a distance to the village of Rujiste.

 6        Q.   And you had business over in Rujiste all the time so you knew his

 7     family?

 8        A.   In the village of Klasnik, I had a close relative whom I went to

 9     visit, and on my way there I passed through Rujiste.

10        Q.   And so how old was Milan when you first saw him, when you passed

11     through Rujiste?

12        A.   Well, I didn't estimate his age.  He was a young boy.

13        Q.   How young?

14        A.   How young.  He was young.  I wasn't at his birth to know how old

15     he was.  He was around 20, maybe a little bit over 20.

16        Q.   So the last time you saw him was 20, or the first time?

17        A.   As he was growing up, a boy.  He was 20.  Of course he's older

18     now.

19        Q.   So are you saying the first time you ever saw Milan Lukic, he was

20     20?

21        A.   I don't know if he was 20, but he was -- I wasn't able to judge

22     his age.

23        Q.   And this is some knowledge you gained passing through Rujiste on

24     your way to Klasnik?

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Well, it wasn't knowledge.  She said she saw him

Page 1105

 1     passing through Rujiste.

 2             MR. ALARID:

 3        Q.   Well, I guess the question would be, ma'am, how do you know it's

 4     Milan Lukic, seeing a 20-year-old man in Rujiste?

 5        A.   Everybody knew where everybody lives.  We went to school

 6     together.  We attended parent-teacher meetings together, so you knew who

 7     everybody's son was.

 8        Q.   Did you have a son that was 20 the same time that Milan was 20,

 9     or were you 20 at the same time Milan was 20?

10        A.   I have an elderly son who used to go to Prelovo to attend dances

11     when he was 11, and he married three times in -- during his 30 years of

12     life.

13        Q.   And how does that give you personal knowledge of Milan Lukic?

14        A.   I have no specific personal knowledge about Milan Lukic.  He was

15     a neighbour who was growing up in our proximity, and I cannot say

16     anything else that does not stand.

17        Q.   Isn't it true that you don't have to pass through Rujiste to go

18     from Koritnik to Klasnik?  Koritnik, excuse me.

19        A.   You could take another route as well, but one would go through

20     Rujiste as well.  The village of Omeragici and Sitarevo and Kamenica

21     behind Klasnik and Rujiste are the farthest villages.

22        Q.   Isn't that a way out of the way to go?

23        A.   Yes.  To the village of Sitarevo but not to Rujiste.  One could

24     easily walk there.

25        Q.   And when you saw this 20-year-old Milan Lukic, who pointed him

Page 1106

 1     out to you?  Did you stop?  Did you speak to his family, something like

 2     that?

 3        A.   I didn't talk to him, and nobody pointed him to me, and of course

 4     I knew how everyone was called.  Another witness will appear here who was

 5     in the same classroom with him.  Her name is Latifa.  She was married to

 6     Omer Kurspahic.

 7        Q.   How many of the witnesses have you spoken to since the incident?

 8        A.   I haven't talked to anyone specifically about things.  Everyone

 9     went through horrible times.  Latifa lost her husband, her father, and

10     her 11-year-old son, and she is currently living in Austria.

11        Q.   How old is Latifa?

12        A.   I don't know her age, but she was married when she was 21 or 22.

13     She had two daughters and the son Aner who died along with his father in

14     Kremna.  When her father-in-law, Hasan Kurspahic, and his wife Meha came

15     to her to Sarajevo she said, "I want to see them," and they used to say

16     that Mr. Milan Lukic took out Aner Kurspahic and Fikret who was with the

17     army, I don't know, in Belgrade.  They took out her son Aner who was left

18     behind in Kremna, and Latifa asked this gentleman to let her husband and

19     her brother-in-law go, and I asked her, "How did you forget about your

20     son?"  And she said, "I don't know."  And they still don't know anything

21     about these two men and this child, and if necessary she will come here

22     to confirm this.

23        Q.   So you've had a lot of talking with other witnesses in this case.

24     Isn't that true?

25             MR. GROOME:  For the record, this person is not a witness in this

Page 1107

 1     case so there's no confusion about that.

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  We have no evidence that this person is a

 3     witness.

 4             MR. ALARID:

 5        Q.   You had indicated, though, that you had these conversations with

 6     Latifa well after your surviving this incident?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And so you had no information about Latifa's knowledge of

 9     Milan Lukic before the incident at the house?

10        A.   We stayed in our homes for another day or two.  Fikret,

11     Hasan Kurspahic's son, was working in Belgrade in the military service,

12     and he came there to take his father and mother to Belgrade.

13        Q.   When was this?  When was this?

14        A.   That was before we set off -- or, rather, before we were expelled

15     from our homes we found out that they did not manage to pass through,

16     that there was another soldier who put Hasan Kurspahic, Meja Kurspahic,

17     and Latifa and two little girls, one was 40 days old, and put them in a

18     car and they managed to pass through.

19        Q.   And so you had gathered just simply information about Milan Lukic

20     before, but you really didn't know him and you couldn't have described

21     him.  Isn't that true?

22        A.   Excuse me.  I did not gather any information.  This man told us

23     about those two sons who were never found.  I cannot give you all the

24     details here.  It really upsets me.  I'm not made of steel.  I went

25     through all this.  Just by looking at this picture you will know how I

Page 1108

 1     feel, sir, if you have any sympathy.

 2        Q.   Isn't it true that you really didn't know him and couldn't have

 3     described him before?

 4        A.   Mr. Milan Lukic, you mean?

 5        Q.   Correct.

 6        A.   Mr. Milan Lukic was thinner.  He wasn't as sturdy as he is now.

 7     He was a very --

 8        Q.   At 20 years old, what was his hair like?

 9        A.   Just as it is now, brownish, unless he dyes his hair.

10        Q.   What his haircut, the cut of his hair?

11        A.   Also short.

12        Q.   Always short?

13        A.   [Microphone not activated] so if he had regular haircut it was

14     short.  If not, it was a bit long.

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Alarid, you have been with this witness now

16     for about an hour and perhaps 35 minutes.

17             MR. ALARID:  Has it been that long?

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Well, I haven't heard from the time keeper.  One

19     hour and 20 minutes.  One hour and 20 minutes.

20             MR. ALARID:  Okay.  And how much time am I allotted, Your Honour?

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Another 20 minutes.

22             MR. ALARID:  I believe the Prosecution had quite a bit of time.

23     Is it standard that we get 60 per cent of the Prosecution's time or which

24     is it.

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  It's a matter in which I exercise a judgement.

Page 1109

 1     How much more time do you need?

 2             MR. ALARID:  I'm kind of working my way backwards and I'm going

 3     to go through some of the statements including the one that was

 4     introduced, so I'm kind of working my way back so you can see where we're

 5     at, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  No, give me an idea of how much more time you

 7     need.

 8             MR. ALARID:  Less than an hour.

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Very well.  Yes.

10             MR. ALARID:

11        Q.   Now, I would like to take you back to the village, actually -- or

12     actually, no.  Excuse me.  Tell me about Dragomir Gavrilovic.

13     Gavrilovic.

14        A.   Dragomir Gavrilovic was a young man.  He used to come to our

15     village before we were dislocated.  He maltreated people.  He threatened

16     to kill us, but not in our village so that we wouldn't exude stench.

17        Q.   Could you say that again, ma'am?  He didn't want to kill you in

18     the village?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Did you know him to be a member of the SDS?

21        A.   I didn't know that he was a member of the SDS.  I didn't pay

22     attention to that.  I wasn't interested.  Whether he joined some party

23     after the war, I also don't know that, but as a child, he used to live in

24     Dalmatia with his mother.

25        Q.   Yet you included him in the statement as the neighbours who

Page 1110

 1     attacked your village.  Isn't that true?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And did he appear to have a position of authority as that attack

 4     occurred?

 5        A.   Of course he had as long as he dare to come and maltreat elderly

 6     people in the village.

 7        Q.   Did it appear that other people followed him?

 8        A.   I don't know what transpired among them.  He threatened us.  He

 9     at one point caught my child, VG-38, and he said he would cut his throat

10     with his teeth, not with his knife.  He was chasing him behind our

11     houses, cursed his mother, insulted him.

12        Q.   And was this -- when was this, the day, if you know?

13        A.   That was on the 13th of June, one day before we set off on the

14     14th.

15        Q.   And so would it be fair to say that the evacuation and

16     extermination of your village began with your neighbours who you could

17     name?

18        A.   I named my neighbours on numerous occasions.

19        Q.   And they orchestrated this evacuation and deportation from your

20     village.  Isn't that true?

21        A.   Yes, it is.

22        Q.   And it appeared to be organised by your neighbours.  Isn't that

23     true?

24        A.   Yes, they did organise that.  However, who gave them orders I

25     don't know.  The orders must have come from somewhere.

Page 1111

 1        Q.   Could it have simply come from Dragomir?

 2        A.   I don't know.  I didn't ask him.  He knows who he gave orders to.

 3        Q.   And isn't it true that the first time that you gave a -- or enter

 4     the square of Visegrad next to the Red Cross you were met by regular

 5     police officers, and you named them.  Isn't that true?

 6        A.   Yes, there were policemen, and some men in camouflage uniforms.

 7     I was afraid to look at them.  And I believe that if you had been in the

 8     same situation, sir, you also would be afraid to look at anyone.  You

 9     would just keep your eyes on the ground.

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Alarid, we'll take the break now.

11                           --- Recess taken at 12.09 p.m.

12                           --- On resuming at 12.47 p.m.

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Alarid.

14             MR. ALARID:  Thank you, Your Honour.

15        Q.   Isn't it true, ma'am, that Drago Gavrilovic was also a member of

16     the Crisis Staff in Visegrad?

17        A.   How would I know?  I did not meet with Drago to ask him if he was

18     a member of a station or a staff or whatever.

19        Q.   You only knew him as a man that abused you and your village?

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Unnecessary.  Next question, Mr. Alarid.

21             MR. ALARID:

22        Q.   And isn't it true that you indicated, though, in one of your

23     statements that Drago was a member of the SDS?

24        A.   If I remember correctly, I never said anything of the kind in any

25     of my statements.  He's a neighbour of ours.  His house is not far from

Page 1112

 1     our village.

 2        Q.   Now, isn't it true though that his parents had a home in -- in

 3     the Glavica neighbourhood?

 4        A.   His parents are divorced.  His mother hails from Dalmatia.  She

 5     was married to Stevo Gavrilovic, who is deceased.  I don't remember

 6     exactly when, perhaps a year ago.  He grew up with his mother in

 7     Dalmatia, and when the war broke out, he came to live with his father.

 8        Q.   And did his father have a home in Pionirska in Glavica?

 9        A.   Not that I remember.

10        Q.   And please tell me about Ilija Gavrilovic.  Isn't it true that he

11     was a police officer?

12        A.   Not before the war.  He is a police officer now.

13        Q.   And you wouldn't know whether he was before the war or at least

14     at the time of the war?

15        A.   During the war he joined the police.  He wasn't a policeman

16     before the war.

17        Q.   And isn't it true through that when you were brought to Visegrad

18     you were brought to the police station right next to the Red Cross?

19        A.   I'm sorry, but the Red Cross was not by the police station.  It

20     was in the Jondza Street closer to the new hotel on the Drina River.

21        Q.   And isn't it true that your escorts, including Mr. Grujic, went

22     into the police station as you continued on?

23        A.   They did go to the police station, whereas we continued on our

24     way to the Red Cross building, which wasn't open.  It was a Sunday.

25        Q.   And you indicated in your statement that Dusan Grujic is a tall

Page 1113

 1     blonde?

 2        A.   Yes.  The man is dead.  I have nothing to say about a dead man.

 3             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, the Prosecution -- this witness has

 4     given several statements.  The Prosecution would certainly appreciate

 5     just a reference so that we may following along.

 6             MR. ALARID:  It's the 1998 statement of 12th and 13th of

 7     February.  I believe the Prosecution may have referred to it.

 8        Q.   And isn't it true that Dusan Grujic -- well, let me just ask you.

 9     Did he have tattoos on his arms of any kind?

10        A.   I think he did have a tattoo.  I don't remember the picture.

11     Something he had made in the army.

12        Q.   And isn't it true that as you entered the town you were

13     approached by several police, Serb police, that started harassing you and

14     swearing at you?

15        A.   Those slurs were outside the new hotel when we hid under a poplar

16     tree from the rainfall.

17        Q.   But isn't it true that some of the police started suggesting that

18     your group be killed and thrown into the river as you waited at the Red

19     Cross building for about an hour?

20        A.   Certainly there was all sort of abuse.

21        Q.   And isn't it true that finally actually a police officer is the

22     one that told you to go to the Mahala neighbourhood to wait and that you

23     could stay in those houses till the next morning?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   But you simply didn't know the name of this Serbian police

Page 1114

 1     officer.  Isn't that true?

 2        A.   I don't know.  I didn't even look at him carefully.

 3        Q.   Now, you indicated that they had insignias on their uniform that

 4     were different from before the war.  Can you remember them?

 5        A.   They had some insignia looking like flags, blue.  There was a

 6     little flag both on the caps and on the sleeves.

 7        Q.   Were there the Serbian insignias of the White Eagles on those

 8     caps?

 9        A.   No, there were no White Eagles, just a little flag, a narrow

10     patch on the sleeve and on a cap.

11        Q.   And you didn't see any White Eagles that afternoon or evening?

12        A.   I wasn't looking whether it was white or black.

13        Q.   So you didn't see any Eagles that evening?

14        A.   No, I did not, but I heard from other people that some troops of

15     that sort had been present as well, but I personally didn't see them.

16        Q.   And so would it be fair to say that at the time that you started

17     walking to the Mahala neighbourhood, the only ones that knew you were

18     going there were the police?

19        A.   I don't know.  Nobody told me whether they knew we were going to

20     the Nova Mahala or whether the police was aware or the civilian

21     population was aware.

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Where is this taking us, Mr. Alarid?

23             MR. ALARID:  Alternative theories of the Defence, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Pardon?

25             MR. ALARID:  It's simply alternative theories of the Defence.

Page 1115

 1     Alternative perpetrators and knowledge in terms of the situation with

 2     this witness.

 3             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Well, tell me more specifically, because I need

 4     to know your case.

 5             MR. ALARID:  Well --

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  You're suggesting what?

 7             MR. ALARID:  I'm suggesting that the formal police of Visegrad,

 8     including members of which are some of the family members that took them

 9     from their village, which included Mr. Ilija Gavrilovic, had more

10     knowledge in terms of the circumstances of their -- of their deportation

11     as well as ultimately what was going to happen to them.  Also, Your

12     Honour, considering the fact that it was a police officer that told them

13     where to go does sort of form the basis of some of the chain of command.

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  You must move on.

15             MR. ALARID:  I will, sir.

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I don't consider that to be very relevant, so

17     just move on, please.

18             MR. ALARID:

19        Q.   Now, isn't it true, though, you gave a statement in this case

20     actually all the way back to the 14th of August, 1995?  And this was a

21     statement to the Ministry of Interior of the Republic of Bosnia and

22     Herzegovina in Zenica.  Isn't that true?

23        A.   1995.  I gave so many statements, I couldn't count them; and I'm

24     not sure to whom.

25        Q.   And isn't it true that in your original statement you didn't know

Page 1116

 1     the names of the two Chetniks who told you to go to Visegrad?  Isn't that

 2     true?

 3        A.   Who told us to go to Visegrad and then continue by bus to

 4     Kladanj, it was Micun, Lipovac.  Micun was the nickname of the person

 5     named Milorad.  And Dusan Grujic, who is late, Dusan Grujic.  They said

 6     it was ethnic cleansing.

 7             Now, two other persons stopped us outside Greben village, and I

 8     don't know who these two were.

 9        Q.   Isn't it true that Ilija Gavrilovic followed you from Greben to

10     Visegrad?

11        A.   No, Milorad Lipovac.

12        Q.   When you arrived according to your first statement that we have,

13     when you arrive in Visegrad the -- one the Serbian police officer you

14     actually did recognise, Brane Tesovic?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And also his brother Boro?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And at that point in time in your first statement you said that

19     there was 150 men, women, and children that were being forced onto the

20     bridge and their throats slit right in front of you.

21        A.   There were not that many, but there were quite a lot of them, and

22     many bodies flowed down the Drina.

23        Q.   And a bearded Chetnik about 50 was cutting throats and throwing

24     them off the Drina.

25        A.   Yes.

Page 1117

 1        Q.   But you made no reference to this slaughter in any of your

 2     subsequent statements.  Isn't that true?

 3        A.   Well, there are many things I didn't mention because I can't -- I

 4     can't force myself to remember it all.  Even this is upsetting me enough.

 5     I'm not made of wood, you know.

 6        Q.   You indicated -- but it was quite a scene, because you indicated

 7     that people were crying.  Mothers begged them to spare their children,

 8     and the screams were terrible, but the Chetniks cut people's throats

 9     shouting, "Cut the balijas," a derogatory term, "Cut their throats.  Hit

10     them between the legs.  Cut off his" -- he won't be needing it any more

11     and so on.  Isn't that true?

12        A.   That happened in Jusuf Memic's house.  A man was kicked in the

13     crotch to make him spread his legs so he can be abused, but on that

14     bridge there were just screams and cries and begging to spare them.

15     There are other witnesses who can tell you how the bridge was washed from

16     all the blood with a water tank.  It was hosed down.

17        Q.   In your first statement you indicated that your co-worker,

18     Brane Tesovic, a police officer forced people to come to be slaughters,

19     but you did not see him cut anyone's throat on this occasion?

20        A.   He didn't cut those.  Another man did it.

21        Q.   But you heard from Amira Savanija, another co-worker that Brane

22     and his brother Boro had taken away her husband and cut their throats?

23        A.   Yes.  Her husband, her father-in-law, and her son-in-law.  It was

24     in Unista just above the dam where the hydro power plant was being built.

25        Q.   Yet for this court earlier in your testimony you forgot the

Page 1118

 1     slaughter on the bridge even though this should have been in your mind as

 2     you entered Visegrad, after coming from your village?

 3        A.   You know, sir --

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  It's not clear to me what you mean by that, yet

 5     for this court earlier in your testimony you forgot this slaughter.  What

 6     are you saying exactly, that she didn't testify to this in

 7     examination-in-chief or --

 8             MR. ALARID:  Or in any of her subsequent statements.  I mean,

 9     this is -- to me, maybe I'm being naive, but I think if my village was

10     being brought to the town of Visegrad and on the bridge they're cutting

11     throats and throwing them off the bridge, in her first statement and only

12     statement she said 150 people had gathered and the screams and the cries

13     of mothers begging for their children, that would be something that would

14     come out in the forefront of the memory.

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Well, as far as the examination-in-chief is

16     concerned, she -- she answered questions.  She -- her testimony's in

17     response to questions asked.

18             However, Witness, what counsel is saying, that in none of your

19     subsequent statements did you mention anything about these awful

20     happenings on the bridge, the cutting of throats and throwing people off

21     the bridge.  What do you say about that?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I cannot tell the

23     whole story from the beginning.  I would go crazy.  I made it as short as

24     I could --

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you.

Page 1119

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- making outlines in my

 2     statements.

 3             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Please move on, Mr. Alarid.  Another Judge -- my

 4     colleague says another five minutes.

 5             MR. ALARID:  Your Honour, all I would ask is that the English

 6     version, which has been uploaded as 1D10-0155 be introduced under seal.

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, it's admitted.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, it is admitted as Exhibit 1D29

 9     under seal.

10             MR. ALARID:  Let me just check my notes, Your Honour, and I will

11     probably pass the witness.

12             No further questions, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cepic.

14             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

15                           Cross-examination by Mr. Cepic:

16        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, madam.

17        A.   Good morning.

18        Q.   My name is Djuro Cepic, and I appear here for the Defence of

19     Sredoje Lukic.

20        A.   Nice to meet you.  I'm VG-13.

21        Q.   Before I start examining you, let me say I quite understand and

22     sympathise with your suffering, your suffering and that of your son.

23        A.   Thank you, but I hardly think you can understand it if you

24     haven't experienced it yourself.  It's very difficult.

25        Q.   I understand you quite well.  People carry the consequences for a

Page 1120

 1     long time afterwards, even for smaller things let alone something like

 2     this.

 3        A.   Thank you.

 4        Q.   I'll try to be as clear as I can in my questions, and I would

 5     appreciate brief answers, if possible.

 6             Madam, I maintain to you that Mr. Sredoje Lukic was not involved

 7     in the incident in Pionirska Street that day.  He was very far from

 8     Visegrad.  Do you understand?

 9        A.   I understand you're asking the questions.

10        Q.   Do you know that Sredoje Lukic surrendered voluntarily to this

11     court?

12        A.   Well, yes.

13             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I'm not sure that's entirely accurate.

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  Well, the question of whether surrender is

15     voluntary is quite often a difficult matter to determine.  Let's move on.

16     I'm not sure that much turns on it, so let's move on.

17             MR. CEPIC:  Okay.  Thank you, Your Honour.

18        Q.   [Interpretation] Will you tell me, madam, this other son you have

19     who had several marriages, what year was he born in?

20        A.   1975.

21        Q.   You were 19 when he was born?

22        A.   Right.

23        Q.   The other son was born in 1978?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   You told us yesterday that you used to see Sredoje Lukic and

Page 1121

 1     Huso Kurspahic on patrol.  Did you also see them after your children were

 2     born?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   I meant the period between '75 and '78, actually, for the record.

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Tell me about this terrible incident.  I have to

 7     underline "terrible."  As a mother, did you always keep your son by your

 8     side?

 9        A.   Of course.

10        Q.   So throughout the incident he was by your side.

11        A.   Certainly he was.

12        Q.   Yesterday and today I listened carefully to your responses given

13     to Mr. Groome and the president of the Chamber, and you said clearly that

14     you had not seen Sredoje Lukic that day in Pionirska Street.  Instead,

15     you heard about his presence there from Edhem.

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   You cannot tell us, I suppose, whether the two of them knew each

18     other, Edhem and Sredoje, I suppose.

19        A.   Well, since Edhem recognised him, he must have known him, I

20     suppose.

21        Q.   Translation is in line 24, "must have know him," but the witness

22     said [B/C/S spoken].

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  That is rendered by the

24     words "I suppose."

25             MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]

Page 1122

 1        Q.   Did you really say he probably knew him?

 2        A.   He certainly knew him, because he passed by on patrol more than

 3     once.

 4        Q.   You don't remember which was Edhem's location in the house?  Was

 5     he close to the window?

 6        A.   I didn't look where everyone was standing.  We were all in one

 7     room.

 8        Q.   Similarly in the evening when you were moving from Memic's house

 9     to the Omeragic house?

10        A.   We filed one behind the other.

11        Q.   But Edhem was behind you, wasn't he?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   After the incident you were first given some medical assistance

14     by Mrs. Bakira Cecic [phoen]?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Madam, this is an identification sheet.  I will just mention the

17     codes and designations, not names, because we are in open session.

18             When you crossed over to the Muslim side, did VG-122 give you any

19     medical assistance?

20        A.   When I moved from Kosovo Polje to the left bank of the Drina, I

21     got some medical assistance at the Red Cross.  That woman sent me to the

22     hospital.

23             MR. CEPIC:  [Previous translation continues]... please.  2D732.

24     Statement of VG-122.

25        Q.   [Interpretation] There is only one mistake in this statement.

Page 1123

 1     Otherwise, everything you said is correct.  You highly appreciate this

 2     person as a very credible one.  I'm talking about VG-122?

 3        A.   Of course.  I went to see him at Crni Vrh.  He bandaged me and

 4     then he sent me off to the hospital in Gorazde.  I was full of maggots

 5     and I was in a very poor --

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Groome.

 7             MR. GROOME:  I'm looking at my screen and I see the statement of

 8     another witness.  Is counsel proposing to show the statement of another

 9     witness to this particular witness?

10             MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is all from the

11     Prosecution's list and this is a list that we received from them and in

12     this list this medical aid is mentioned, and I would like the witness to

13     clarify certain things for me.

14             MR. GROOME:  Then it would seem to me, Your Honour, then to put

15     questions about the medical aid.  I'm not sure what benefit there is to

16     showing the witness a very suggestive thing such as a statement from

17     another witness.  In fact the rules of this Tribunal require us to

18     segregate witnesses before they come and for the very reason that this

19     only confuses the fact-finding process.  I believe he can put the --

20     whatever assertion he believes is in this statement to the witness, but

21     he can do that without having the witness read another witness's

22     statement.

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  There is some merit in that, Mr. Cepic.

25             MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]

Page 1124

 1        Q.   Madam, we already heard from you that VG-122 examined you and

 2     gave you medical help.

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Did you explain to him what had happened?

 5        A.   He asked me where I came from, from what hell had I emerged.  He

 6     gave me medical assistance that evening.  In the evening I crossed

 7     through the woods and went to a hospital in Gorazde.

 8             MR. CEPIC:  Your Honour, I understood.  I understood the last

 9     instruction.  Just for the record, because this witness VG-122 mentioned

10     different last name of the witness, and that was the purpose of this,

11     just to confirm that the witness was there and medical help is given by

12     the VG-122, and that VG-122 received the informations about this

13     incident.  Thank you.

14             May I continue, Your Honour?

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

16             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you.

17        Q.   [Interpretation] Madam, my learned colleague Groome asked you as

18     well about the statement of the 5th of May, 2008, that you gave to the

19     county prosecutor in Sarajevo.  Do you remember that?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And you gave that to the best of your recollection?

22        A.   Yes, as far as my memory serves me.

23             MR. CEPIC:  [Previous translation continues] ... system the

24     number 2D670.

25        Q.   [Interpretation] Madam, is this your signature here at the

Page 1125

 1     bottom?

 2             MR. CEPIC:  Could we scroll down B/C/S version, please?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 4             MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Thank you.  This is also your signature; is that right?

 6        A.   Yes, it is.

 7             MR. CEPIC:  [Previous translation continues] ... in B/C/S.

 8        Q.   [Interpretation] And here again that's your signature?

 9        A.   Yes.

10             MR. CEPIC:  [Previous translation continues] ... document my

11     learned friend Mr. Groome already requested to be marked for

12     identification.  I would like kindly to request admission of this

13     document because I don't see any -- any problem to be admitted now.

14             MR. GROOME:  I have no objection, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  It's admitted.

16             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you.

17             MR. GROOME:  I would just ask that it remain under seal.

18             MR. CEPIC:  Yes, thank you.

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, under seal.

20             MR. GROOME:  P62, does that assist the registrar?

21             MR. CEPIC:  Yes, exactly.

22        Q.   [Interpretation] Madam, in the meantime, in late 1992, did you

23     give an interview to the Sarajevo television about this incident?

24        A.   Yes, I did.

25        Q.   That was in late 1992; right?

Page 1126

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             MR. CEPIC:  Your Honour, could we go to the private session,

 4     please.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 6                           [Private session]

 7   (redacted)

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Page 1127











11  Pages 1127-1130 redacted. Private session.















Page 1131

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21                           [Open session]

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

23             MR. GROOME:

24        Q.   Can I ask you to now -- now draw a line that approximates the

25     flow of that creek in this area?

Page 1132

 1        A.   It runs all the way from the top.

 2        Q.   Okay.  And could I ask you to put in X to indicate approximately

 3     where you were shortly after you jumped out of the burning building.

 4        A.   I was here under the elder bush.

 5        Q.   Can you mark that with an X, please.  Okay.  I think you have

 6     done that.  Just to make it clearer, could I ask you to circle that X?

 7     Maybe it will make it a bit clearer.

 8        A.   [Marks]

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I tender that as Exhibit -- I tender 65

11     ter number 175.5 with the markings of VG-13.

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, we admit it.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  It will be admitted as Exhibit P63 under seal,

14     Your Honours.

15             MR. GROOME:

16        Q.   In cross-examination, you said, "Edhem shouted that we were

17     followed by Sredoje Lukic."  Could I ask you, this Edhem that you were

18     referring to, where did he live, if you know?

19        A.   The village of Koritnik.

20        Q.   And could you tell us, would he have had the same opportunities

21     to see Sredoje Lukic patrolling that village as you had?

22        A.   Well, certainly, since he knew him from before.  He was an

23     elderly man.  He knew the whole surrounding of Visegrad, not just one

24     village.

25             MR. GROOME:  Thank you, VG-13.

Page 1133

 1             I have no further questions, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  VG-13, you are a person of admirable courage.

 3     You have given your evidence.  You may now leave.

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Page 1134











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24                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.40 p.m.,

25                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 4th day

Page 1137

 1                           of September, 2008, at 8.30 a.m.