Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1239

 1                           Friday, 5 September 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 8.51 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cepic.

 6             MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  For the sake

 7     of the report, in relation to Witness VG-18, let me inform you that it

 8     was only at 7.33 p.m. last evening that we received the proofing list for

 9     that witness which contains very significant and extensive modifications

10     which makes our preparation more difficult.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Groome.

12             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I'll ask Ms. Sartorio to address the

13     particulars of it, but I would remind Mr. Cepic and the Chamber that this

14     was the witness who I rescheduled earlier in the week because she became

15     ill after she arrived here.  I know Ms. Sartorio was working with her all

16     day yesterday and given the length of time between her statement and now,

17     she had made some changes.  I have not seen the document.  I don't know

18     how many changes were made to the statement.  I'll leave it to the

19     Chamber to decide what's warranted, but I do make the point that this was

20     the woman that became ill after she arrived in The Hague.

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Can I ask the court deputy to have somebody look

23     at the computers.  We don't have the transcript.

24                           [Trial Chamber confers]

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  How long would this witness take, Mr. Groome,

Page 1240

 1     and do you have another witness that's available?

 2             MR. GROOME:  No, Your Honour.  The only two witnesses remaining

 3     for this week are VG-18 and VG-84.  They are mother and son.

 4     Your Honour --

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  The point that Mr. Cepic made relates to VG-18.

 6             MR. GROOME:  Yes.  That's the second witness for today.  I --

 7     it's possible that we may only begin her evidence today and may have to

 8     conclude it on Monday, or if the Court -- another suggestion I might make

 9     is the video that I introduced yesterday is approximately 15 to 20

10     minutes long.  At some point we'll have to look at that video.  It was

11     introduced yesterday.  That's something also at that we could do to give

12     Mr. Cepic and Mr. Alarid some time if the Court feels that is warranted.

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  The Chamber's ruling is that we should

14     proceed, and we'll make any adjustments as -- as necessary, but I had

15     wanted on behalf of the Chamber, Mr. Groome, to raise a matter relating

16     to the witnesses for next week, because we observe that Mr. Vasiljevic is

17     down for a portion of Wednesday and all day Thursday, which might suggest

18     that we might not have enough time to finish him in the course of the

19     week, and we wonder whether he shouldn't be called earlier.

20             MR. GROOME:  I think this is a good illustration of how difficult

21     it is to estimate witnesses.  I actually thought that that might be too

22     much time for him.  So we have the flexibility.  Mr. Cepic informs me

23     that Mr. Domazet, who has been hired by the registry to represent him is

24     asking that he not be taken until Wednesday, but if we have him on

25     Wednesday, I'm more than willing to move back witnesses to make whatever

Page 1241

 1     adjustments so that we have a full opportunity to hear him.  I don't

 2     believe he could go further than Wednesday, Thursday and Friday of next

 3     week.

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Very well.

 5             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, before we proceed there is a matter

 6     that I must bring to your attention and I ask that we go into private

 7     session for that.

 8                           [Private session]

 9   (redacted)

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11   (redacted)

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18   (redacted)

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Page 1242











11  Page 1242 redacted. Private session.















Page 1243

 1   (redacted)

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 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

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 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14                           [Open session]

15             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

16                           [The witness entered court]

17                           WITNESS:  WITNESS VG-84 [Resumed]

18                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Let the witness make the declaration -- the

20     witness is still under the declaration that he had made.

21             MS. MARCUS:  May I begin, Your Honours?

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

23                           Examination by Ms. Marcus:  [Continued]

24        Q.   Good morning, VG-84.

25        A.   Good morning.

Page 1244

 1             MS. MARCUS:  Could I ask the court officer kindly to call up

 2     Exhibit P74  and to turn to e-court page 4, please.  Once we get to page

 3     4, perhaps we could focus on the upper half of the page.

 4        Q.   VG-84, do you see the -- your statement on the screen in front of

 5     you?

 6        A.   Yes.  Yes.

 7        Q.   Can you see the paragraph which begins "About one-half to one

 8     hour after Mitar left"?

 9        A.   Yes.  Yes.

10        Q.   I'd like to ask you to read over that paragraph to yourself and

11     then I will ask you a few follow-up questions.

12        A.   I have to read it aloud?

13        Q.   No.  You can just read it over to yourself.

14        A.   Right.  There's no need for me to read it.  You can go ahead with

15     the questions.  I have sufficient knowledge about all this.

16        Q.   In this paragraph you mentioned Sredoje Lukic, and you described

17     his actions.  Can you tell the Chamber how did you know Sredoje Lukic?

18        A.   Yes.  Two -- or, rather, three men came to the house, the

19     Memic house.  There was several others behind the house, but I wasn't

20     able to observe how many of them were behind the house, and there were

21     several in front of the house.  Two men came into the house, Milan Lukic

22     and Sredoje Lukic.  There was one elderly man and all my neighbours and

23     friends who were in the house knew him, and 20 to 25 per cent of them

24     knew Sredoje Lukic who was allegedly a policeman.  I was a child at the

25     time, so I didn't know him.

Page 1245

 1             We had heard of him -- do you want me to go on explaining?

 2        Q.   Yes.

 3        A.   We heard of him while we were in our village, the village of

 4     Koritnik.

 5        Q.   VG-84, I'm sorry to interrupt you.  Just a moment, please.

 6        A.   Very well.

 7        Q.   Let's just take it step-by-step.  As you see, your statement is

 8     on the screen in front of everybody, and we can all read it in English,

 9     including the Judges, so it's also in evidence, so this will be

10     considered in detail.  I'm simply going to focus you on a few small

11     follow-up questions.

12             So you say that you -- that 20 to 25 per cent of your neighbours

13     who were in the Memic house with you knew Sredoje Lukic?

14        A.   Yes.  Both of them.  Both Sredoje and Milan.  I'm telling you how

15     it was roughly.  I don't know the details.  I was just under 14.  I

16     wasn't checking who knew him, but between 20 to 25 per cent of those who

17     were in the house knew the two men who came into the room -- or, rather,

18     the three men, because the third one remained in the corridor.

19        Q.   Why would you have believed your neighbours that this was in fact

20     Sredoje Lukic?

21        A.   Well, why wouldn't they believe us?  This was not a town of

22     1 million.  Some 10.000 inhabited it.  It was a small town.

23        Q.   Now, how did you know Milan Lukic?

24        A.   The same was true for him.  I saw him for the first time there,

25     but I had heard of him in my village of Koritnik, and though I saw him

Page 1246

 1     for the first time in the house, there were others with me who knew him,

 2     perhaps got to know him the same way I did.

 3        Q.   What -- on what basis do you believe that they knew Milan Lukic?

 4        A.   There were girls in the house who used to go to school with him,

 5     so they used to be schoolmates, and they -- they seemed like perfect

 6     strangers.  It was the changing times that did their thing.

 7        Q.   To your knowledge was there anyone else by the name of

 8     Milan Lukic in Visegrad during 1992, other than the one you're referring

 9     to now?

10        A.   Absolutely not.

11             MS. MARCUS:  Could the court officer please focus on the middle

12     paragraph.

13        Q.   It begins with the words "After they (Sredoje and his group)

14     left."

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   VG-84, I'll ask you just to take a moment, please, to read

17     through that paragraph before I ask you a few follow-up questions.

18        A.   You can go ahead with the questions.

19        Q.   Did you recognise any other members of the group other than

20     Sredoje Lukic?

21        A.   Other than Sredoje there was Milan with him and another soldier

22     who I didn't know.  He was in the house and there were several others

23     outside.

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Just a moment.  Mr. Cepic.

25             MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, both in the statement,

Page 1247

 1     and the witness confirmed here today clearly that he hadn't known Milan

 2     and Sredoje Lukic before he got to know them as he got into the house,

 3     and my learned friend has been putting her question and it was formulated

 4     differently.

 5             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honours, in this paragraph which is in

 6     evidence, the witness describes Sredoje Lukic.  He previously testified

 7     that he was informed by his neighbours who were detained with him that

 8     that was in fact Sredoje Lukic, and based on his understanding he

 9     describes Sredoje Lukic and his group, and in the middle of this

10     paragraph he describes there were about 10 to 15 soldiers and he's

11     mentioning soldiers.  So the question was:  Did you recognise any other

12     members of the group which is referred to in this paragraph.  The

13     question stems directly from the witness's statement.

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I believe the question is unobjectionable.  It

15     will be for you, Mr. Cepic, in cross-examination to seek to impugn the

16     witness's knowledge of Sredoje Lukic.

17             You can question him as to the basis for his knowledge and seek

18     to destroy.  Yes, please proceed.

19             MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

20             MS. MARCUS:

21        Q.   VG-84, this paragraph describes the trajectory from the Memic

22     house to the Omeragic house.  You mention in this paragraph that there

23     was a light at the Omeragic house.  What about along the path from the

24     Memic house to the Omeragic house?

25        A.   The Memic house is some 30 metres away from the Omeragic house.

Page 1248

 1     This is an approximation.  As we got out of the Memic house - I'm

 2     describing it the way I saw it - and as I was on my way to the Omeragic

 3     house, there was some light outside the house.  There were torches, and

 4     there was light coming from the surrounding houses.  This made it

 5     possible for me to see quite well.

 6        Q.   Why -- why do you think that the Omeragic house was the house

 7     which was chosen?

 8        A.   Because it was right next to a creek, and this would muffle the

 9     voices and the wailing of the women and the children.

10             MS. MARCUS:  Could the court officer please go to the bottom of

11     the page, focusing on the bottom half.

12        Q.   VG-84, I'd like to focus you on the bottom paragraph on that

13     page.  Would you like to read it through briefly before I ask you some

14     follow-up questions?

15        A.   You can go ahead.

16        Q.   As you were hiding behind the tree with your mother, do you

17     recall hearing anything?

18        A.   Yes.  I heard the crying of the children, of the elderly women,

19     moans, shouts.  I heard a blast and shooting.  The house was engulfed in

20     flames.  I didn't see much, though, because I ducked my head.  I was

21     trying to make sure that I stay alive.

22        Q.   To your recollection, how many children under your age at the

23     time, so under 13, were burned to death on that day?

24        A.   Some 10 to 15.  There was even a two-day-old baby that her mother

25     gave birth to in the nearby forests.

Page 1249

 1             MS. MARCUS:  Could the court officer call up 65 ter 178.52.  For

 2     the information of the Chamber, this is a photograph.  The photograph was

 3     taken on the 1st of September of 2001.

 4        Q.   VG-84, do you recognise what is shown on this photograph?

 5        A.   I do.  Yes.

 6        Q.   Before I ask the witness to mark the photograph, would it be

 7     possible to admit the unmarked photograph so that we can refer to it with

 8     other witnesses?

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  The photograph will become Exhibit number P77.

11             MS. MARCUS:  Could I ask the court usher to assist the witness,

12     please, in marking the photograph.

13        Q.   VG-84, can you identify the Memic house on this photograph?

14        A.   Yes, I can.

15        Q.   Could you kindly mark that location, the Memic house, with

16     an M for Memic.

17        A.   [Marks]

18        Q.   Can you identify the Omeragic house?

19        A.   [Marks]

20        Q.   Okay.

21             MS. MARCUS:  The witness has marked the Omeragic house with an O.

22        Q.   Can you please trace the path from the Memic house to the

23     Omeragic house with an arrow.

24        A.   [Marks]

25        Q.   And can you circle the window you jumped out of with your mother?

Page 1250

 1        A.   [Marks]

 2        Q.   Please now kindly mark the approximate location on the creek

 3     where you and your mother hid behind the tree once you had escaped, and

 4     please mark that location with an X.

 5        A.   This is the creek, and to make it clear, this is how the creek

 6     runs, and this is the tree.  It was a pear tree, I believe, under

 7     which -- or behind which my mother and I hid.

 8        Q.   VG-84, could you please place your pseudonym at the bottom of the

 9     photo.  You can just write "VG-84."

10        A.   [Marks]

11             MS. MARCUS:  And could I admit this marked photo, please.  I

12     tender this marked photo.

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  That will become Exhibit number P78,

15     Your Honours.

16             MS. MARCUS:  Could I ask the court officer, please, to call up

17     65 ter 175.7.

18             For the information of the Chamber, this is a still which is

19     taken from the 360-degree photograph.

20        Q.   VG-84, do you recognise what is shown on this photograph?

21        A.   Yes.  A house -- or, rather, the Omeragic house.

22             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honours, may I tender this unmarked photo into

23     evidence so we can use it with other witnesses?

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  It is admitted as Exhibit P79, Your Honours.

Page 1251

 1             MS. MARCUS:

 2        Q.   VG-84, could you please, on this photograph, trace the path along

 3     which you and the other detainees approached the Omeragic house.

 4        A.   [Marks]

 5        Q.   And can you now please mark with a V the door through which you

 6     entered, V for "vrata," for "door."

 7        A.   [Marks]

 8        Q.   And could you now please put an X at the location on the creek,

 9     the approximate location, where you hid with your mother behind the tree.

10        A.   Beyond the creek.  [Marks]

11        Q.   I'd ask you again to please place your pseudonym at the bottom of

12     this photo, "VG-84" at the bottom.

13        A.   [Marks]

14             MS. MARCUS:  And with that, Your Honours, I tender this marked

15     photo.

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Marked photo will become Exhibit number P80.

18             MS. MARCUS:  Could I request private session for the last

19     question.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

21       [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Chamber]

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 1252

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)  And of course there were other people there, too,

 4     who had been in the house before who I didn't know.

 5        Q.   What is your most vivid memory of that day?

 6        A.   I -- I remember all of it.  I'm 30 now, and I still remember

 7     everything, the crying of the children, the wailing of the women and men,

 8     the blasts, the -- the shots from firearms and so on.

 9             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honours, we can return to open session, and I

10     have no further questions for this witness.

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, open session.

12                           [Open session]

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Alarid.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're in open session.

15             MR. ALARID:  Thank you, Your Honour.

16                           Cross-examination by Mr. Alarid:

17        Q.   Good morning, Mr. 84.

18        A.   Good morning.

19        Q.   My name is Jason Alarid and I represent Mr. Milan Lukic.  I'd

20     like to ask you a few questions regarding your statements.  Obviously

21     they've been introduced into evidence, and some of the things that you've

22     talked about in those statements and today.  Is that okay?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And you know the first thing that comes to me when you say how

25     vivid this is in your mind, it must have been a terrible experience for a

Page 1253

 1     young boy to go through that I can't even begin to imagine not having

 2     been through it.

 3        A.   Thank you for your understanding.

 4        Q.   And when you escaped this tragedy with your mother into the

 5     creek, that was at the -- that was at the very beginning of the incident,

 6     wasn't it?  The fire had just started --

 7        A.   No, no, no.  The fire had already caught in the home, and there

 8     were grenades blasting, and had there been more, I would not be sitting

 9     here today.

10        Q.   Actually, yes, sir, that's what I meant, and all I say, though,

11     is that was it at the very beginning that this grenade, and you received

12     the shrapnel in your head?

13        A.   Yes, yes.  There wasn't just one grenade.  There were several of

14     them falling.  There was fire from -- there was shots from firearms.  And

15     the fire, the way it started burning, it wasn't like you -- you had a

16     small spark, and it did not develop slowly.  You could escape from such a

17     fire.  But there were -- there were weapons there.  There were blasts

18     from grenades.  And let me clarify this.  I ended up only 50 metres away.

19        Q.   And the -- in looking at the photographs that the Prosecutor

20     showed you, it appears that there's a lot of vegetation on the slope into

21     the creek, in the bottom of the creek, and obviously up the other side of

22     the creek to the pear tree where you were able to hide yourselves.  Is

23     that -- was it the same back then or similar?

24        A.   No.  There wasn't anything.  There was just the undergrowth, and

25     the only tree that was there was the one we hid behind, because this was

Page 1254

 1     a maintained garden.  The owner of the house perhaps left the house a

 2     month earlier, but it had been tended before that.

 3        Q.   Well, and would it be fair to say where you and your mom were

 4     hiding afterwards, it was able to protect you from both -- from the

 5     people on the other side of the ravine?

 6        A.   How would it protect me?  I was only on the other side of the

 7     creek.  You were able to see the house and everything.  It's just that we

 8     didn't dare watch what was happening.  I ducked my head.  I almost buried

 9     it in the ground.  There were people with torches around.  There were

10     houses around from where the light was coming.

11        Q.   I'm probably using the wrong words and when it translates it even

12     gets more confused.  I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, trust me.

13        A.   I don't know.

14        Q.   What I'm more concerned about is really that there was something

15     about where you were able to hide that protected you from these people

16     across the way, torches or not.

17             MS. MARCUS:  Objection.  This question has been asked and

18     answered.

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I'll allow him to answer it.

20             Give us the answer.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was a tree, sir.  Whether it

22     was a peach tree or a pear tree, I don't know.  Had it not been for this

23     tree, I would have been killed perhaps.

24             MR. ALARID:

25        Q.   How much time do you think had elapsed between when that fire

Page 1255

 1     first rose up to the grenade that injured your head?

 2        A.   You know, not more than five minutes.  Five minutes.  Maybe not

 3     even five minutes.

 4        Q.   And, see, this is why sometimes reading things on paper don't

 5     always give a good picture of things, because when I read the statement,

 6     it seemed like it happened very quickly.

 7        A.   I know, I know.  Okay.  Okay, okay.

 8        Q.   And it felt like from reading it that once the insanity and chaos

 9     started you -- the only reason you survived was you were able to get out

10     quickly.  Otherwise, you would have shared the same fate as the people in

11     the room.

12        A.   Yes, the same.  That's true.  And because I managed to -- to grab

13     the opportunity before the person who is -- who came under the window,

14     who started shooting at people.  There were people who were wounded.

15        Q.   Now, the person that came under the window and was shooting at

16     people and wounding people, you weren't able to recognise him in the

17     chaos, that person?

18        A.   No.  That's what I said in all my statements.

19        Q.   And --

20        A.   I was just trying to -- to run for my life.

21        Q.   Absolutely.  And another mother and son were able to escape

22     around the same time as you.  Were they before you or after you?

23        A.   Another mother -- except for this mother and the son, there was

24     another mother who was the first to break the window and jump out, and

25     later on I jumped and another child was with me.  Actually, a friend of

Page 1256

 1     mine.  I don't remember whether I was the first or was he before me.  His

 2     mother was the fourth person to jump out, and she was wounded.  You know

 3     that.  You had an opportunity to see that.

 4        Q.   Yes, sir, I did.  And so was your mom the first one out the

 5     window?  Even though someone else broke the window, your mom was first?

 6        A.   Well, there was another window.  Maybe somebody jumped out of it.

 7     I didn't pay attention anyway.  The window that I jumped out of and that

 8     I encircled on the photograph, my mother was the first to jump out of it.

 9        Q.   And from where you were -- so it was pretty lucky that you were

10     able to be at the window right when this chaos started.

11        A.   No.  I was in the middle of the house.  There was a big table in

12     the middle of the house.  I was just a child, a 14-year-old boy.  I

13     couldn't imagine what was going to happen to me.  I couldn't imagine that

14     I was going to die in a fire.  I don't think I have to tell you any more.

15        Q.   And I really don't want to talk too much, because I know this is

16     extremely painful for you.

17        A.   Yes.  If necessary, I am at your service here.

18        Q.   Now, from where you were in the table in the middle of the room,

19     how many people were between you and the door?

20        A.   It was fully packed.  The room was of such size.  It wasn't a big

21     room.  I don't know exactly how big it was, but people were cram-packed.

22        Q.   And when the -- is it fair to say that you reacted to move

23     towards your mother and the window when the fire started or before that?

24        A.   Yes, when it all started.  Why not -- why would I go before that?

25     I was feeling fine.

Page 1257

 1        Q.   The only reason I thought you might have gone before that because

 2     it was probably very scary in the dark after they had shut all your

 3     family members in this room and maybe you would have wanted to be closer

 4     to her and I didn't know because I couldn't tell from reading.

 5        A.   I was sitting on that table.  My mother was already ready close

 6     to the window.  She was an adult and she knew what was in the offing.  I

 7     was just a child.  Only when the fire started and the grenades did I

 8     realise.

 9        Q.   And a sad fact is that -- well, there were probably people also

10     between your mother and the door as well because it was so packed.

11        A.   Yes, yes.  There were people between the table where I was and my

12     mother.  Actually, the window.  There were many people, but when the

13     detonations and the shooting and the fire started, everybody lay on the

14     ground.  I just can't describe this situation to you.

15        Q.   And I don't want to put you through much more and we'll move out

16     of this room as quick as we can.

17             Tragically, the people that were between the door and your mother

18     probably helped protect you and your mom and allowed you that brief

19     opportunity to escape.  Isn't that fair?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   And the only reason I said that was is because they were sort of

22     a shield between the fire that started by the door, and even some of the

23     shrapnel, probably, was blocked by other people.

24        A.   Yes, it's possible.

25        Q.   Would the -- did the people in the room make it difficult for you

Page 1258

 1     to see out the door when the fire started?  Were you able to see the door

 2     open and close or anything like that?

 3             MS. MARCUS:  Objection.  This is a misrepresentation of the

 4     witness's statement.  The witness's statement is that the door closed

 5     behind him when he entered the house.  The door was closed.  That's in

 6     the witness's evidence.

 7             MR. ALARID:

 8        Q.   The only reason --

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Reformulate, Mr. Alarid.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  I wasn't looking at the door.

11     The door was closed, sir.  Whether it was locked or not, you can find it

12     in the statements.

13             MR. ALARID:

14        Q.   And that's exactly -- I mean, many people saw this from different

15     angles, and some people may have seen the door open, and I was wondering

16     if you saw that.

17        A.   No, no, no.

18        Q.   So the first thing that shocked you, of course, was the fire and

19     then the explosion.

20        A.   The door was blasted out and the fire started immediately.  I

21     don't know what they did, how they did that.  And this was followed by

22     explosions and by shooting.

23        Q.   Now, I want to back up a little bit in time to the procession

24     from the one house to the other house.  Can we do that?

25        A.   Yes, I can.

Page 1259

 1        Q.   Now, you indicate that there were a couple people obviously that

 2     you named in your statement, three people in fact.  You mentioned

 3     Milan Lukic, Sredoje Lukic, and Mitar Vasiljevic?

 4        A.   Yes.  I mentioned Mitar Vasiljevic in my testimony.

 5        Q.   And Mitar Vasiljevic, the first time you had ever laid eyes on

 6     him was earlier in the day at the Red Cross?  Okay.

 7        A.   Yes.  No, not at the Red Cross.  The first time I saw him was at

 8     the Memic's house.  Maybe somebody did see him there but I didn't.  You

 9     can also find that in my statement, when he came in front of the Memic

10     house.

11        Q.   And he purported to give one of the members of your group a piece

12     of paper that ensured safety?

13        A.   Yes, yes, yes.

14        Q.   And -- and he was unarmed at this time?

15        A.   No, I don't remember that.

16        Q.   And was he non-threatening to the group?  Did he appear back

17     earlier that he was a friend of the group or maybe less than a friend but

18     at least someone that wasn't a threat?

19        A.   What group?

20        Q.   Your group.  Your group.

21        A.   What group?

22        Q.   Your group of people.

23        A.   That was not a five-member group.  That was 70 people.  That was

24     my entire village.

25        Q.   Yes, sir.

Page 1260

 1        A.   You'd better be clear, and you should say, "Your village,"

 2     because this was the whole village.  He didn't pose a threat to me.

 3        Q.   And that's what I was more trying to get at as opposed to the

 4     number of people, and I apologise.  I'm more important on what was your

 5     impression of this man that came to visit.  Is that okay?

 6        A.   Yes.  I am at your disposal should you need some additional

 7     explanation.

 8        Q.   And so this man who -- how did you come to know him as Mitar,

 9     because you were just a boy.

10        A.   He introduced himself.  He said that he was -- name was

11     Mitar Vasiljevic, that he came from the Red Cross, and he came -- he gave

12     the paper to Mujo Halilovic.  He purported to be a good man trying to

13     provide safety to us.

14        Q.   Now, did you hear anything or know about him as a waiter in town

15     at the Panos -- for the Panos company?

16        A.   Yes, a waiter at the Panos.

17        Q.   And had you and your family ever been served by him?

18        A.   No.  I was a young boy.  Many people knew him.

19        Q.   And after he introduced himself did people in your family and

20     village talk about him as being a waiter, or did you come to that

21     knowledge after the incident?

22        A.   I heard that from the people who were there, that he was a

23     waiter.  A lot of people had known him there.  Being a waiter in a small

24     town is a big deal.  There were not many hotels in Visegrad, only one.

25        Q.   Can you recall what he was wearing, Mitar Vasiljevic, when you

Page 1261

 1     saw him?

 2        A.   You can find that in my statement.  Whether he wore a dark suit

 3     or a camouflage uniform, I don't remember.

 4        Q.   And the person that you named as Milan Lukic, can you recall what

 5     he was wearing that -- that day?

 6        A.   I can remember.  I remember.

 7        Q.   Please tell the Court.

 8        A.   A camouflage uniform.

 9        Q.   Was he wearing anything on his head, a hat?

10        A.   I don't remember.  No, he didn't.

11        Q.   Do you --

12        A.   Well, I'm not sure whether it's a yes or a no, so I'd rather say

13     I don't remember.

14        Q.   That's a fair answer after the time that's passed.  Do you recall

15     what weapons he may have had?

16        A.   A sniper rifle.

17        Q.   And the person that you named as Sredoje Lukic, what do you

18     believe he was wearing on that day?

19        A.   Yes.  Some sort of camouflage uniform.  Basically, they were in

20     uniforms.

21        Q.   Do you remember any insignias on any of these uniforms, anything

22     to mark them?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   Do you remember if the person that you believe to be Sredoje,

25     what he -- if he was armed?

Page 1262

 1        A.   Yes, he was.

 2        Q.   How do you believe he was armed?

 3        A.   He had some kind of automatic weapon.

 4        Q.   Do you remember a hat?

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   Now, you indicated on -- on direct examination that 20 to 25 per

 7     cent of the people knew Sredoje and Milan.

 8        A.   Yes, yes.

 9        Q.   Can you -- were you able to -- to make sense or make the

10     difference between how they knew the different Lukics that you believe?

11        A.   Let me make it clear for you.  Ninety-five people from my village

12     knew about Milan, if that's helpful.  They heard of him before we came to

13     this house.

14        Q.   So --

15        A.   First of all, we were afraid to sleep in our own homes.  For a

16     month or two we slept in the forest, because we were afraid of that

17     group.  So some people had heard of them without seeing them, and some

18     people knew them.

19        Q.   Did -- kind of going back to the fear your village had been in

20     for quite some time, isn't it true that back at the beginning --

21        A.   Yes, yes.  We had lived for two months under their occupation.

22     Since April when Visegrad fell to the Uzice Corps until the day in June

23     when we were set on fire.

24        Q.   Was there a time when your village was attacked before -- by your

25     neighbours before the exodus from your village?

Page 1263

 1        A.   They attacked the whole of Visegrad, not just my village.  They

 2     just passed through the village looking for weapons and we were left

 3     living in the forests or in barns, sometimes in houses, but we were

 4     living in fear.

 5        Q.   Do you know who organised the exodus from your village?

 6        A.   No, I don't remember.  From the village -- from the direction of

 7     Prelovo where their headquarters was there.  The gentlemen sitting behind

 8     you will know better than I do.  So all the initiatives came from that.

 9     All the negotiations were launched from that headquarters involving not

10     only my village but all the other villages as well.

11        Q.   Had you known or heard of a Dragomir Gavrilovic at that time, a

12     neighbour of yours?

13        A.   Yes, yes.

14        Q.   What did you know of this Gavrilovic?

15        A.   Hardly anything.  He threatened my mother, but my mother will be

16     able to tell you more about that.

17        Q.   And did you -- you indicated that in April of 1992 the Serbian

18     police came to your village.

19        A.   Yes.  Yes, yes.

20        Q.   Did you know the identity of these police?

21        A.   No.  No.  The Serbian police and army were all mixed together.

22     You couldn't distinguish them.  People would come to villages for

23     negotiations in order to evacuate the village.

24        Q.   And this was before the Uzice Corps came to town or to Visegrad?

25        A.   No, no, no.  That was a couple of days before we were burned in

Page 1264

 1     the house, and also you can find in my statements that before the

 2     Uzice Corps we had to flee.

 3        Q.   Well -- and the reason I'm confused is because I'm reading three

 4     statements.  I'm reading the testimony that you gave at trial, I'm

 5     reading a statement that you were able to review with the Prosecutor that

 6     was given in 2001, but I'm also reading a statement you gave when you

 7     were 16 years old to the security forces in Sarajevo in 1995.

 8        A.   Yes, yes.

 9        Q.   Were you able to review the oldest statement as well as your

10     other statements before you testified today?

11        A.   Yes.  I had an opportunity to review everything, and if anything

12     needs clarification I am here, because I prefer to clarify things in this

13     way.  There could be some minute details, but by the way you sound, it

14     seems that a lot is not correct.

15             MR. ALARID:  Could the court usher please pull up what's been

16     uploaded as 1D10-0344, which is the English version of the 14 November

17     1995 statement, and 1D10-0347, which is the B/C/S version.  And the first

18     page of both, please.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20             MR. ALARID:

21        Q.   And do you see the first sentence right below "Statement"?  It

22     says:  "... April 1992, the Serbian police came one morning to the

23     village ..."

24        A.   Yes.  Yes, sir.  That's how you should ask me.  That's the first

25     time that when we left our village, when the Uzice Corps came.  So that

Page 1265

 1     was the first time, in April, that we had to flee.  And then later we

 2     came back.  First we went to the village of Vrstanica, and then to the

 3     stadium in Visegrad.  When the corps occupied the town, we spent the

 4     night in the Drina Hotel and then the following day we went back to our

 5     village.

 6        Q.   Okay.  And that's kind of what -- do you understand why I'm

 7     confused about some of the dates?

 8        A.   Okay.  Okay.

 9        Q.   I really don't want to molest you in any way or bother you.  I

10     just want to get through this and you can go home.

11        A.   I appreciate that.

12        Q.   Now, do you know those Serbian policemen, I guess is the question

13     I want to ask, that first time you were forced to leave your home?

14        A.   No.  No, no.

15        Q.   And in April of 1992, isn't it true that you hadn't heard of

16     Milan Lukic before the chaos began in April and the Uzice Corps were

17     required to come into Visegrad or came into Visegrad?

18        A.   No, I hadn't.

19        Q.   And when you went to the football stadium, in your first

20     statement, and it's down a little bit further, you cited that there was a

21     General Milovanovic.  Is it fair that that could be corrected to

22     Jovanovic, if you remember?

23        A.   Yes, yes.  I don't remember exactly, so it's either Jovanovic or

24     Milovanovic.

25        Q.   Okay.  Now, this general, he came in a big spectacle in a

Page 1266

 1     helicopter.  Isn't that true?

 2        A.   Yes, yes.

 3        Q.   And there were soldiers all around the stadium and your people

 4     were herded into this stadium to hear the address of this general.  Isn't

 5     that true?

 6        A.   Yes.  People had been brought to the stadium, and they wanted to

 7     see what to do with all this crowd, because the entire right-hand bank of

 8     the Drina was there.  Actually, people had come from the forest to the

 9     stadium to hear what the corps will have to say to them.

10        Q.   Do you remember --

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Alarid.  Mr. Alarid, just to let you know,

12     you have another 15 minutes.

13             MR. ALARID:  Fifteen?

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

15             MR. ALARID:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I will wrap this up.

16        Q.   Isn't it true, sir, that this general indicated that he had the

17     White Eagles in control and that you believe there was White Eagles in

18     this stadium?

19        A.   Yes, yes, yes.

20        Q.   What was your understanding of the White Eagles at that time even

21     though you were a boy?

22        A.   Well, they had special belts.  These were special troops guarding

23     him.  They had white belts and -- and special weapons.  That was only

24     part of the Uzice Corps called the White Eagles.  They were part of the

25     Uzice Corps.

Page 1267

 1        Q.   Now, I'd like to go on this same and --

 2             MR. ALARID:  And at this time, Your Honour, just so I don't

 3     forget, I'd like to tender 1D10-0344 into evidence, please, under seal.

 4             MS. MARCUS:  Objection.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Ms. Marcus.

 6             MS. MARCUS:  The witness talked about some possibilities that

 7     there were some clarifications.  In fact, Mr. Alarid himself referred to

 8     some issues which he believes require clarification.  There was no

 9     foundation laid for the authenticity of this document, so I would -- I

10     would hope that that could be done before it was tendered into evidence.

11             MR. ALARID:  Well, Your Honour, obviously we received this from

12     the OTP, so I mean I'm assuming they know about it.  We can go to

13     signature pages if that's what we need to do, but I also believe the

14     Prosecutor can address these matters on redirect.

15             MS. MARCUS:  Just because a document comes from the OTP doesn't

16     mean it's been authenticated by the OTP.

17             MR. ALARID:  Well, then I'd like additional cross-examination

18     time, because that really slows me down.

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  He has a lot of confidence in you, Ms. Marcus.

20             Can you lay a foundation then for its admission?

21             MR. ALARID:  Certainly.

22        Q.   Mr. VG-84, you do remember giving this statement in 1995?  Your

23     mother --

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Your mother was present at this statement?

Page 1268

 1        A.   I don't remember that.

 2        Q.   Can you go down --

 3             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Just a minute.  We admit it.  We admit the

 4     statement.  Let's move on.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  The statement will become Exhibit number 1D32,

 6     Your Honours, under seal.

 7             MR. ALARID:

 8        Q.   Now, I'd like to move to page 2 of the English version, but it

 9     may be on the first page of the Serbian version.  Just a moment, please.

10     But do you recall in the statement, and maybe we don't have to go to the

11     exact location, do you recall mentioning that Dragomir Gavrilovic was one

12     of the same group, and you indicated that they were policemen that came

13     to the house that night of the tragedy?

14        A.   I don't remember.  I don't remember him being there.

15        Q.   Do you see his name on the first page of your statement?

16     Actually, it's on page 2 of the statement, middle of the page, please.

17     And I'm looking to the middle of that large paragraph and I see

18     "Dragomir Gavrilovic," and I see him referred in a sentence after you

19     referred to four policemen coming to the home.

20        A.   Maybe he was mentioned, because during the day while we were on

21     the way he passed by us.

22        Q.   And who is Radomir Djuric?

23        A.   From the village of Loznica.  Whether he was in the police or the

24     military, I can't tell.  He came once or twice to our village.

25        Q.   Now, this is going to sound like a silly question, but do you

Page 1269

 1     remember --

 2        A.   Go ahead.

 3        Q.   Do you remember at any time during this night that the man that

 4     you believe to be Mitar Vasiljevic being on a white horse with a cast on

 5     his leg?

 6        A.   At night or during the day?

 7        Q.   At any time on a white horse?

 8        A.   Only during the day, that he came outside the house, as I already

 9     described, that he gave us a piece of paper, but there was no horse

10     there.

11        Q.   And that's all I wanted to know to be honest.  Do you remember

12     the day -- the day that you started walking -- or actually, the day you

13     were told you were going to have to evacuate your village, that was the

14     day before that you actually walked; is that correct?

15        A.   No.  No.  We were told on the 13th, and we -- or it was on the

16     12th or the 13th that we were told to leave, and then on the 14th we

17     left, and on the evening of the 14th we were set on fire.

18        Q.   Do you remember what day of the week the 14th was?

19        A.   No.  No.

20        Q.   And the reason I ask you this is one of your clarifications that

21     you gave that came through the Prosecutor that involved changing the date

22     from the 13th to the 14th.

23        A.   That may be the case.  However, as far as I remember, in my last

24     statement from 2001 when I was here it was the 14th.

25        Q.   Well, what happened between then and now that made you remember

Page 1270

 1     the change of one day, a calendar date?

 2             MS. MARCUS:  Objection.

 3             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 4             MS. MARCUS:  What the witness has just said is that when he was

 5     here in 2001 he had already changed it to the 14th in his testimony.  So

 6     he's referring to his prior testimony where he correctly referred to the

 7     14th.  That's why the testimony got entered into evidence without any

 8     clarification.  So it's not between then and now that the time -- that

 9     the date was corrected.

10             MR. ALARID:  Well, then maybe I'll ask him that.

11        Q.   What happened between giving your statement on here on the 20th

12     of January, 2001, and your testimony on -- in October of 2001?  What

13     happened that would jog your memory to change a calendar day that you had

14     memorialised some time before?

15        A.   Perhaps where the statement says the 13th it may have been the

16     result of a mistranslation.  I don't know what could have happened.  I

17     will remember that date, the 14th of June, for the rest of my life, just

18     as I remember my birth date.

19             MR. ALARID:  I have no further questions, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  Mr. Cepic.

21             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I do have a lot of

22     questions, and maybe I will request additional time for this witness.

23     I'll try to do my best in a short period of time, of course.

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  Go ahead.

25             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 1271

 1                           Cross-examination by Mr. Cepic:

 2        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, sir.

 3        A.   Good morning.

 4        Q.   I have to address you by that number, not because I wish to but

 5     because that's the rules.

 6        A.   No problem.

 7        Q.   Let me first introduce myself.  My name is Djuro Cepic, and I

 8     represent this gentleman, Sredoje Lukic, seated behind me.  I'll kindly

 9     ask you to help me clarify certain matters.

10        A.   I'm here for that reason.

11        Q.   Before I start putting any questions to you, let me tell you that

12     I truly understand the pain and the suffering you and your mother

13     experienced, and please accept the condolences both on my part and on the

14     part of the members of my team for the loss of your family members.

15        A.   Thank you.

16        Q.   Please listen to my questions carefully.  Think them over before

17     you give me an answer, and please give me clear and concise, brief

18     answers so that we can complete this as soon as possible.

19        A.   Fine.

20        Q.   Sir, I put to you that my client, Mr. Sredoje Lukic, was not in

21     Visegrad on that day.

22        A.   Yes, yes.  Please go ahead.

23        Q.   I put to you that he was not in Visegrad and that he did not take

24     part in that incident.  Do you understand?

25        A.   No.  No, I don't understand.  Nobody can.  Nobody who was not

Page 1272

 1     there can understand.

 2        Q.   I put it to you that this was the case of a mistaken identity,

 3     and we will get to that later.

 4        A.   That's your business.  You should try and see that through.

 5        Q.   Tell me, did you follow the start of this trial in the media,

 6     over the radio, the TV, or the press?

 7        A.   No, no.  I've had quite enough of this.

 8        Q.   I have to ask you this:  Why did you refuse me the interview?

 9        A.   What's the need for it?  You have the statements.  Everything is

10     clear.  If something is not clear to you, I'm here.  I can explain it to

11     you all.

12        Q.   In 1992 you were 13, just under 14, therefore, and you attended

13     the Prelovo primary school; is that right?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   In the course of your earlier testimony and from what I was able

16     to read in your statements, you believed that those were Milan and

17     Sredoje Lukic according to the stories of others because you hadn't known

18     them earlier.

19        A.   Yes, that's true.  I said that I didn't know them before and that

20     I had heard this.

21        Q.   Am I right if I say that in view of your age at the time most of

22     the information you received came from your mother, VG-18?

23        A.   You are not right.

24        Q.   Very well.  Thank you.  Did you spend the entire time with your

25     mother throughout the incident?

Page 1273

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Were VG-18 -- or, rather, VG-13 and VG-38 with you at the time?

 3        A.   I can't tell you.  I don't have the necessary information.

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Ms. Marcus?  Did you have a point, Ms. Marcus?

 5             MS. MARCUS:  I just wanted to say that the witness doesn't have

 6     the pseudonyms in front of him.  He only knows the pseudonym of his

 7     mother.

 8             MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Give me a moment, please.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10             MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   They were with you at the time of -- when your valuables were

12     taken away and at the moment of --

13        A.   Yes, all the time.

14        Q.   Thank you.  I would like to refer to Jasmina Vila, the late

15     Jasmina Vila, your relative.

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Would you agree with me that your mother had more precise and

18     reliable information, your mother VG-18, as to what had become of

19     Jasmina Vila or what had happened to Jasmina Vila before this incident?

20        A.   Yes, I do agree.  My mother was an adult.

21        Q.   I respect my mother above anybody else as well.  Now we're coming

22     to one area that is crucial to me.  Do you want to have your statement

23     before you, or should I just put questions to you like this?

24        A.   Yes, please, if we could have it.

25             MR. CEPIC:  P74.  74.  Page 4.  In English and also in B/C/S.

Page 1274

 1        Q.   [Interpretation] Paragraph 3 in the Bosnian version, and

 2     paragraph 2 in English.  "One of them entered the kitchen and introduced

 3     himself as Sredoje Lukic."

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Can you describe it for me?  How was it that he introduced

 6     himself?

 7        A.   Can I just be allowed to read this through?  The question was how

 8     he introduced himself.

 9        Q.   Yes.  Did he come before you and say I'm Sredoje Lukic?

10        A.   It wasn't just him who entered the house.  Three of them did.

11     The people there knew them right away.  I was at the far end of the

12     living-room and there were many people there.

13        Q.   Can you give me the words with which he introduced himself?  Did

14     he say, "People, my name is Sredoje Lukic"?

15        A.   Well, a few people knew right away that it was Sredoje Lukic.

16        Q.   You said clearly here he came and introduced himself.  So you

17     said that he introduced himself.  Did he use the following words:  "My

18     name is Sredoje Lukic.  Good day to you people"?

19        A.   Yes.  He said that as he got into the room, and I heard other

20     people say so later on, because this was a room full of people, and they

21     heard him say that, and that's how this whole thing started.

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Just a minute, Witness.  Are you saying that

23     Sredoje Lukic introduced himself by saying, "My name is Sredoje Lukic.

24     Good day to you people"?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no.  I didn't quote his

Page 1275

 1     words this way.  This was upstairs.  There were stairs there, and there

 2     were people there who knew him by name.

 3             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Just a minute.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't -- that he said expressly

 5     those words --

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Did Sredoje Lukic say anything in your hearing

 7     to identify himself?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't hear.

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Did you at some time come to the understanding

10     that that person was Sredoje Lukic?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  And how did you arrive at that knowledge?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were people in the house, the

14     older ones, who knew him, and when they left they said, "That's the

15     policeman who works at -- in Visegrad."  There were people there,

16     including elderly women, who knew him.

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  They said, "That's the policeman."  Did they go

18     further to identify the name of the police?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sredoje Lukic.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Cepic.

21             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

22        Q.   [Interpretation] Sir, your statement today is somewhat different

23     from what you said in your written statement.  You were quite explicit

24     here and said, "One of them got into the kitchen and introduced himself

25     as Sredoje Lukic.  He carried a sniper rifle and a camouflage uniform."

Page 1276

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   These are your words.

 3        A.   Sir, these are details that cannot be described, because the --

 4     they were not entering that house --

 5             MR. CEPIC:  Could you scroll down in the English version, please.

 6     A little bit more.

 7        Q.   [Interpretation] Is there a signature somewhere at the bottom

 8     here, your signature?

 9        A.   Yes, there is.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Sir, when testifying before this honourable Tribunal,

11     your mother, VG-18, claimed that somebody entered the house and

12     introduced himself as Sredoje Lukic.

13        A.   Well, why don't you put that question to her?  She knows about

14     this better than I do.

15        Q.   Does it sound a bit illogical to you to say -- for a person to

16     come into the house and say, "I introduce myself, my name is

17     Sredoje Lukic, and I will be doing this and that to you"?

18        A.   Yes, of course it's illogical, but they were proud of that.  They

19     prided themselves on it.

20        Q.   Please help me identify the individual who introduced himself as

21     Sredoje Lukic.

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   Why not?

24        A.   Well, how would I be able to help you?  Can you explain it to me?

25        Q.   Sir, I'm putting questions to you, and you're answering them.

Page 1277

 1        A.   Please go ahead.  Fire away.

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cepic, it wasn't very clear to me what you

 3     meant when you asked the witness to help you identify the individual who

 4     introduced himself as Sredoje Lukic.  What exactly did you mean by that?

 5             MR. CEPIC:  My questions and answers.  My questions and answers

 6     from witness.

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, I see.

 8             MR. CEPIC:  Only way.  Only possible way, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  Go ahead.

10             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you.

11        Q.   [Interpretation] Was there daylight in the house at that moment,

12     sir?

13        A.   I don't remember.

14        Q.   Were you able to see clearly the face of the person who

15     introduced himself as Sredoje Lukic?

16        A.   I don't remember that either.

17        Q.   How far away from -- were you at that point from your mother?

18        A.   I was right by her side.

19        Q.   How far away from you was the person who introduced himself as

20     Sredoje Lukic?

21        A.   Two metres.

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cepic, we're going to take the break now.

23             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

24                           --- Recess taken at 10.20 a.m.

25                           --- On resuming at 10.44 a.m.

Page 1278

 1             MR. CEPIC:  Your Honour, in the meantime we printed pseudonym

 2     sheet, so with your leave, I'd like to -- to use it.

 3             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 4             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  May I continue?

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 6             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 7        Q.   [Interpretation] Sir, can we continue?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   We left off when this robbing took place in the afternoon.  You

10     said that you are unable to make an identification.  You told us that all

11     the time VG-13 and VG-18 were with you.

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   VG-13 and VG-38.  And, naturally, VG-18, your mother.  How far

14     was your mother from you at the -- at that time?

15        A.   She was sitting next to me.

16        Q.   VG-13 and VG-18, how far were they at the time?

17        A.   I don't know.

18        Q.   Were they close to you?

19        A.   I don't know.  There were many rooms.  There was one room,

20     another room, there was a kitchen, and they were all full.

21        Q.   Hasib Kurspahic, father of Huso Kurspahic.

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Where was he standing?

24        A.   I don't know.

25        Q.   Can we then conclude that you have very poor memory of these

Page 1279

 1     things?

 2        A.   Yes.  I can barely remember who was standing where.  It was full

 3     of people.

 4        Q.   Sir, did VG-13 perhaps confirm the identity of these men who

 5     entered the house to you?

 6        A.   Twenty per cent of people confirmed that.

 7        Q.   I'm asking you about VG-13.

 8        A.   I don't know about VG-13.  I wasn't with her.  She was maybe in

 9     some corner.  There were 50 or 60 people altogether there.

10        Q.   But among those people were both VG-13 and VG-38, yes or no?

11        A.   How can I know that?  I don't remember.

12        Q.   You told me today that they were involved in the incident the

13     whole time and that they were close to you.

14        A.   I didn't tell you that today.  They were in the file with us.

15     They were in front of the Red Cross.  They were in the house with us.

16     Maybe she left the room for five minutes to go to the toilet.  Maybe she

17     went out for two minutes.  She wasn't with me all the time so that I

18     could follow her movement.  There were many people.

19        Q.   Did you talk to her?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   Am I right to say that you cannot provide us with any better

22     information about the appearance of Sredoje Lukic?

23        A.   I said that Sredoje Lukic and Milan Lukic were there and a third

24     man whose identity I don't know.

25        Q.   But you cannot give me any information about how they looked

Page 1280

 1     like?

 2        A.   Twenty per cent of the people --

 3        Q.   Sir, please listen carefully to my questions.

 4        A.   Twenty per cent of people knew them.

 5        Q.   Sir --

 6        A.   I'm giving you this information.

 7        Q.   I'm asking about your knowledge.  I'm not asking you about what

 8     other people knew.

 9        A.   But, sir, I listened to people who were older than me, and they

10     knew these men very well.  I was a 14-year-old boy.  I listened to what

11     my elders were telling me, and there were some elderly people who knew

12     him very well.

13        Q.   Was Hasib Kurspahic one of them?

14        A.   I don't know.

15        Q.   Can you tell me who searched the people and took their money and

16     their jewellery?

17        A.   Milan Lukic and Sredoje Lukic were in charge of collecting money

18     and gold.  The third man was searching people in another room, this third

19     man whom I don't know.

20        Q.   Can you please explain how come that you changed this information

21     about the identity in your -- today's testimony?

22        A.   What do you mean?  What kind of change?

23        Q.   Well, please look at the statement.  In this paragraph here you

24     described Sredoje Lukic.  You said that he had a sniper rifle on him.

25        A.   Yes.

Page 1281

 1        Q.   Today, transcript page 23, line 13, you said that it was Milan

 2     who had a sniper rifle.

 3        A.   Sir, these are all automatic weapons as far as I am familiar with

 4     that.

 5        Q.   You would agree with me that there is a significant difference

 6     between an automatic rifle and a sniper rifle, would you?

 7        A.   But this is automatic weapons, sir.

 8        Q.   I kindly ask you to listen to my questions carefully.

 9        A.   Very well.

10        Q.   Visually there's a big difference, isn't there?

11             MS. MARCUS:  Objection.

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  What is the objection?

13             MS. MARCUS:  Counsel hasn't established that the witness would

14     have any basis of knowledge of these weapons, certainly at the time he

15     was 14.

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Cepic.

17             MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if we look carefully at

18     his statement, he said very explicitly that Sredoje Lukic had a sniper

19     rifle, so he is able to distinguish between the weapons.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, proceed.  Proceed.

21             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

22        Q.   [Interpretation] Did they have any hats?

23        A.   I don't remember.

24        Q.   Can you at least remember who was taller and who was shorter?

25        A.   Sredoje was older and Milan was about seven years younger as far

Page 1282

 1     as I could judge by their appearance.

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  No, no.  He asked about their height.  Can you

 3     remember who was taller and who was shorter?  He didn't ask about their

 4     age.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no.  I don't remember.  I

 6     don't remember.

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Very well.  Let's move on.

 8             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] VG-38 asserted that Sredoje was shorter than

10     Milan by five centimetres.

11        A.   Where?  In which statement is that?

12        Q.   Transcript dated 2nd September 2008, lines 26, 27 --

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the counsel please repeat the pages

14     slowly.

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Ms. Marcus.

16             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honour, the witness has already given an answer

17     to this question, so if -- if counsel's proposing to repeat the same

18     question again about the height, the witness has already testified that

19     he doesn't remember.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I agree.  He can't help you any more.  Please

21     move on, Mr. Cepic.

22             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

23        Q.   [Interpretation] Sir, your mother VG-18, described Sredoje Lukic

24     as someone who was retired at the time and that he was over 40 years of

25     age.  As for Milan Lukic, she said that he was a younger person.

Page 1283

 1        A.   You have to ask her.

 2        Q.   You -- do you agree with that?

 3        A.   I think you have to ask her.  Why -- why should I give you

 4     answers on her behalf?

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Witness, no.  He's not asking you to answer on

 6     behalf of your mother.  What he's asking is whether you agree with your

 7     mother's description that Sredoje was someone who had retired at that

 8     time and that he was over 40 years of age.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I -- I can't remember that.  I'm

11     not giving any descriptions.  I'll let her do that.

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Let's move on.

13             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

14        Q.   [Interpretation] Sir, did any of these men have any mask or a

15     stocking over their face?

16        A.   No, they didn't.  Maybe there were some other persons outside of

17     the house.  Maybe other witnesses can confirm that.  As far as those

18     inside the house were concerned, I wasn't able to notice anything of the

19     sort.

20        Q.   Do you perhaps remember while you were moving from the Memic

21     house to the Omeragic house who was the one who called the people to

22     leave the house?

23        A.   I don't remember.  Maybe it can be found in the statements but at

24     this moment I cannot remember.

25        Q.   In this file while you were walking in the darkness from the

Page 1284

 1     Memic house to the Omeragic house, the visibility was very poor, wasn't

 2     it?

 3        A.   Yes, but one could see things.

 4        Q.   This person who introduced himself as Sredoje, do you know where

 5     he was standing?

 6        A.   In front of the house where we were set on fire.

 7        Q.   Can you describe him in this particular situation?

 8        A.   No, I cannot.  I was a little bit late.  I was among the last

 9     people who entered the house.  He patted me on the shoulder.  Whether it

10     was him or Milan, there were two or three of them in front of the house.

11     Because I couldn't find my shoes, and he patted me on the shoulder.

12        Q.   Within this particular situation would you be able to give us any

13     description, any details?

14        A.   No, no, no.  I enter the house very quickly.  They were just

15     standing in front of the house.  Would that be helpful?  The house where

16     we were burned.  And there were a couple of more soldiers in the dark.

17        Q.   I'm not denying that the incident took place and your suffering.

18        A.   Well, if this is of any help.

19        Q.   I'm just asking you to help us with your answers to shed more

20     light on who was there and who really committed this.

21             The one that you believe was Sredoje Lukic who was standing in

22     front of the house and who patted you on the shoulder, did he wait for

23     the whole file to pass?  So he was ahead of the column?

24        A.   He was in front of the house, and the column was moving towards

25     him, towards the house.

Page 1285

 1        Q.   So he was waiting for the column in front of house?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   He didn't follow behind the column?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   Sir, would you believe the words of VG-13?

 6        A.   What words?

 7             MS. MARCUS:  Objection.  Your Honours, counsel continuously puts

 8     the words of other witnesses to this witness.  Now, I submit that it's an

 9     inappropriate thing to ask this witness to judge the credibility of the

10     other witnesses.  Rather, the assertions that they made should be put to

11     the witness.  Their assertions, the factual assertions that were made can

12     be put to the witness but not the credibility of other witnesses.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  We won't allow the question.  Put another

15     question.

16             MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

17        Q.   Sir, are you able to give us any detail as to the description in

18     this situation when it was dark?

19        A.   What -- what darkness?  There was light in front of the house.

20     They had flashlights.  Everything had been prepared in advance.

21        Q.   Thank you.  I'm just kindly asking you, and I'm asking you to

22     give me answers to the best of your recollection.

23        A.   That's better.

24        Q.   So according to what you said today, you're unable to give me any

25     better information about the person who introduced himself as

Page 1286

 1     Sredoje Lukic or for whom other people said that he was Sredoje Lukic.

 2             MS. MARCUS:  Objection.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said what I said.

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  I will uphold it.  Ask another question.

 5             MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

 6        Q.   Do you remember the name of any of these people who told us that

 7     it was Sredoje Lukic, or you're unable to tell us that?

 8        A.   I'm telling you again those were the people who knew him.  I

 9     personally didn't know him.  That's what I said in my statements.

10        Q.   But you don't remember any specific person telling you that?

11        A.   No, I don't.

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Let me see whether I understand you, Witness.

13     You heard a number of persons saying that that was Sredoje Lukic.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  You knew who those persons were?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course I knew.

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  But your position now is that you don't remember

18     their names.  Is that so?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember their names,

20     that's true.  We were afraid of these people while we were still in our

21     village before we moved out.  We were afraid that they would come to our

22     village, too, because they went to other villages, took men away, set

23     houses on fire.

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Cepic.

25             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 1287

 1        Q.   [Interpretation] Who told you that Sredoje Lukic was working in

 2     Belgrade?

 3        A.   I may have heard it from someone in the house.

 4        Q.   When you mentioned that you had heard that this group was causing

 5     incidents, did you hear about Sredoje back in April?

 6        A.   No, no, not at that time.  Not in April.

 7        Q.   You testified today and you mentioned April.

 8        A.   I said I didn't know him in April.  That was the time when the

 9     Serbian army entered Visegrad.

10        Q.   So the first information you had was on that night in

11     Pionirska Street.

12        A.   On that day.

13             MR. CEPIC:  It is missing that I said -- page 49, line 4 and 5,

14     my question I put the name of my client, Sredoje Lukic.  Information

15     about Sredoje Lukic.

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Well, just repeat the question.

17             MR. CEPIC:  Yes, of course.  Thank you, Your Honour.

18        Q.   [Interpretation] So this information about Sredoje Lukic that we

19     are discussing today you heard for the first time on that day in

20     Pionirska Street, in the village of Koritnik?

21        A.   No.  We heard about them.  We didn't see them until we left the

22     village.  The whole group, Sredoje, Milan, and another four or five men

23     who are now walking freely around the town.  There were not only these

24     two.

25        Q.   Sir, if you said that 20 per cent of the people knew that Sredoje

Page 1288

 1     had worked in Belgrade or that you heard that he had been working in

 2     Belgrade, how could then 20 per cent of people know Sredoje Lukic?

 3        A.   No.  I didn't say that it was 20 per cent of the people who knew

 4     that he had worked there.  Twenty per cent of the people knew him, and

 5     perhaps two of those people knew that piece of information, but the

 6     people in general knew that he was a policeman.

 7        Q.   Sir, can you help us in any way in the identification, yes or no?

 8        A.   What else do I need to tell you?

 9             MS. MARCUS:  Objection.  Perhaps counsel could specify exactly

10     what question he's asking.

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  Mr. Cepic, that's a very general and wide

12     and vague question.  Be more specific.

13             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I've been trying with a lot

14     of questions in that way, but all answers are negative up till now.

15             Thank you, Your Honour.  No further questions for this witness.

16             [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.  I have no more questions for

17     you.

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Any re-examination?

19             MS. MARCUS:  Yes, Your Honours.

20                           Re-examination by Ms. Marcus:

21        Q.   VG-84, at the time you say Sredoje Lukic and Milan Lukic entered

22     the Mimic house, what time of day was it?

23        A.   It was around 1.00 or 2.00.  It was definitely daytime.

24        Q.   Later as you were made to walk from the Mimic house to the

25     Omeragic house, can you describe the visibility?

Page 1289

 1        A.   It was good.  It was good.  It wasn't very good, but it was

 2     there.

 3        Q.   Can you give some detail about why the visibility was good?

 4     Where did the light come from?

 5        A.   There was a light bulb outside the house, and they all had

 6     flashlight torches.  Before they ordered us to move from the Memic to the

 7     Omeragic house, they had -- they took their positions outside the house.

 8     I don't know who ordered it, but they wanted to create as little noise as

 9     possible.  There was a creek there.

10        Q.   You said there was a light in front of the house.  Can you say

11     which house or which houses had lights in front of them?

12        A.   I said that about the Omeragic house.  I don't remember anything

13     about that in relation to the Memic house.

14        Q.   Do you recall any lights on any other houses other than the Memic

15     and the Omeragic house?

16        A.   Yes, there was some light, because there were other houses

17     further away, and the light was coming from those other houses.

18        Q.   At the time you were in the Mimic house, when Mitar Vasiljevic

19     addressed you and the other detainees, did he suggest to you and the

20     others in your group that you would be safe in the Mimic house?

21             MR. CEPIC:  Leading question, Your Honour.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes --

23             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Just a minute.  It is leading.  You can't lead

24     in re-examination.  Reformulate.  Ask him what he said.

25             MS. MARCUS:

Page 1290

 1        Q.   VG-84, do you recall what Mitar Vasiljevic said to you when you

 2     and the other detainees were in the Mimic house?

 3        A.   I do.  I do.  He told us that we were safe there, that nobody was

 4     allowed to touch us, and that we would be spending the night there and

 5     that on the following day at 12.00 we would be heading for Orlovo and

 6     Kladanj.  We would be leaving from the Red Cross building.

 7        Q.   And did that information make you and the others feel safer in

 8     that house?

 9        A.   Yes, definitely.

10        Q.   And was that one of the reasons that you and the others remained

11     in that house?

12        A.   Well, we had to remain in the house.  We had no where else to go,

13     yes.

14        Q.   Would the presence of a police officer, who the group would have

15     known, contributed to your belief that you would be safe in that house?

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Just a minute.

17             MR. CEPIC:  Speculation, Your Honours, speculation.  And what is

18     the base for this kind of question?

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I think the witness must be able to say whether

20     the police officer being there would make him feel safer.

21             Would a police officer being there, Witness, make you feel any

22     safer?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The presence of who?  Which

24     policeman?

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Ms. Marcus.

Page 1291

 1             MS. MARCUS:

 2        Q.   You testified earlier that to the knowledge of the people around

 3     you, they informed you that this was Sredoje Lukic, and you learned from

 4     them that he had been a police officer.  So my question is:  Would the

 5     presence -- would the present of a police officer under those

 6     circumstances have made you and the others feel safer?

 7        A.   Well, they didn't get come there to protect us.  They came there

 8     to take our valuables.

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Just a minute.

10             MR. CEPIC:  Misleading question, Your Honour.  Completely

11     misleading.

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cepic says it's leading.  Ms. Marcus, do you

13     have anything further?

14             MS. MARCUS:  No, sir, no further questions.

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Witness, that concludes your evidence.  We thank

16     you for giving it.  You may now leave.

17                           [The witness withdrew]

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Groome.

19             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  The Chamber would like to find out how long you

21     expect to be with the witness Vasiljevic.  You have already given us an

22     estimate.  Will you be more than one day, a session lasting a day?

23             MR. GROOME:  No, Your Honour.  In fact, I think I will be

24     substantially less with Mr. Vasiljevic.

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Less.

Page 1292

 1             MR. GROOME:  So it's clear, Your Honour, what my intention is to

 2     do with Mr. Vasiljevic is not ask to him any follow-up questions but

 3     simply to lay the foundation for admission of his prior testimony and

 4     highlight some of the relevant portions.  He testified for a very, very

 5     long time about many issues and simply to highlight for the Chamber the

 6     issues that are directly relevant for the Chamber here.

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Alarid, any estimate of the time that you'll

 8     spend in cross-examination?

 9             MR. ALARID:  That's sort of something that's still in

10     development, Your Honour.  Just -- and it's because of this:  Obviously

11     the Drina River is going to hinge a lot -- to a huge degree on

12     Mr. Vasiljevic.  In the trial he testified and what we have are two

13     binders with about that much prior testimony of which we kind of have to

14     look at and digest.  I'd like to think that I could really shorten it

15     because the points I'm trying to make will be relatively focused, but if

16     there's a lot of testimony, that's the kind of thing, especially

17     depending on the cooperative nature of the witness sometimes it goes

18     easy, sometimes it goes harder.  But -- so I'm having a real hard time

19     estimating simply because the transcript of Vasiljevic is a long one.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cepic.

21             MR. CEPIC:  My estimation is, Your Honour, at this moment less

22     than one hour.

23             JUDGE ROBINSON:  One hour.  I see.

24             MR. CEPIC:  But I have to keep reserve at this moment.

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Okay.  Thank you.  No.  The reason for asking is

Page 1293

 1     that although this is primarily a matter for the Prosecution, the Chamber

 2     would like to see the evidence of that witness concluded by Thursday.  So

 3     if -- if he were brought first thing on Wednesday and you were to spend

 4     less than a day's session, then I believe we should be able to conclude

 5     his evidence by the end of Thursday.

 6             MR. GROOME:  I believe that's entirely reasonable, Your Honour.

 7     In fact my fear is that we'll run short.  So I'm trying to make

 8     arrangements to have additional witnesses.

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Very well, Mr. Groome.  Well, have him ready

10     then for Wednesday, Wednesday morning.

11             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  Oh, I understand we're sitting in the

13     afternoon, yes, on Wednesday.

14             Yes, the next witness.

15                           [The witness entered court]

16             MS. SARTORIO:  Your Honour, before this witness takes the oath

17     and puts on the headphones may I ask the Court for -- to have one hour

18     with this witness in my 92 ter examination?  And the reason is this

19     witness is elderly and very fragile, and it might take a little bit

20     longer to get through what would not take as long with other witnesses.

21     So I would ask the Court's indulgence.

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Very well, yes.

23             MS. SARTORIO:  Thank you.

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Let the witness make the declaration.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

Page 1294

 1     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 2                           WITNESS:  WITNESS VG-18

 3                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  You may begin, Ms. Sartorio.

 5             MS. SARTORIO:  Thank you, Your Honour.  This witness has been

 6     granted protective measures --

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for Ms. Sartorio.

 8             MS. SARTORIO:  This witness has been granted protective measures

 9     as to facial distortion.  And I would like to ask the witness if you

10     could move closer to the microphone, please.

11             And as I stated, Your Honour, this witness is testifying pursuant

12     to Rule 92 ter as per the oral decision of this Court on the 1st of

13     September, 2008, permitting the Prosecution to introduce into evidence

14     her prior transcript and statements.

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25             MS. SARTORIO:

Page 1295

 1        Q.   Witness, you don't have to read out the date.  I'm just asking if

 2     the date of your birth and the name that is on the sheet, if that is your

 3     name and your date of birth.  That's just yes or no.

 4        A.   Yes.  Yes.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             MS. SARTORIO:  We ask that this pseudonym sheet be admitted in

 7     evidence, Your Honour.  Sorry, may the witness sign this paper, then we

 8     will ask it be admitted in evidence.

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  We will admit it.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P81, under seal, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cepic?

12             MR. CEPIC:  Your Honour, with your leave just to request

13     admission of pseudonym sheet which we used with Witness VG-84.

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  If that hasn't been admitted then we will

15     admit it.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 2D10, under seal, Your Honours.

17             MS. SARTORIO:  Now, Your Honours, I would ask the court officer's

18     assistance again in handing a pseudonym sheet for other witnesses that

19     this witness may be referring to.

20        Q.   And, Madam Witness, what is going to be handed to you at this

21     time is a sheet of paper that has the name of some persons and their

22     pseudonym numbers, and I'm going to ask that if you want to refer to any

23     of these persons in your testimony that you refer to them only by the

24     number that has been assigned to them, and please refrain from mentioning

25     their names on the record as these witness also have protective measures.

Page 1296

 1        A.   84?

 2        Q.   Do you understand what I've asked you to do, Witness, with regard

 3     to if you mention these witnesses?

 4        A.   I understand.  It's just I'm not sure if I'll be able to read

 5     this.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Well, we'll just proceed and see how it goes.

 7             Witness 18, how old are you?

 8        A.   Sixty-seven.

 9        Q.   And what is your highest level of education?

10        A.   I completed four years of primary school in Jagodina.

11        Q.   And in 1992, can you tell us in which municipality you were

12     living?

13        A.   Visegrad.

14        Q.   Now I'm going to ask you some questions, madam, about prior

15     testimony and a prior statement that you gave to an ICTY investigator.

16     We're going to go over a couple of changes that you wish to make to the

17     testimony in the statement, so I'll be asking you question by question.

18             Did you testify in the Vasiljevic trial on the 8th of October,

19     2001?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And since coming to The Hague this week, have you had an

22     opportunity to review this testimony in the Bosnian language?

23        A.   Yes.  And I always have it in my mind.

24        Q.   Now, we discussed a couple of changes, and if -- with the Court's

25     indulgence I would like to refer to the page of the transcript and lead

Page 1297

 1     the witness to some extent so that changes can be made.  Thank you.

 2             Now, in your transcript at e-court page 28, you say that you

 3     were -- first you were in the house of Jusuf Memic.  That's what it says

 4     in your testimony.  Do you wish to make a change to that?

 5        A.   Well, I don't know.  It seems to me that we were in Mujo's house.

 6     Therefore, his son's house, but I'm not sure.  I believe that we were in

 7     Mujo's house judging by some of the photographs of the children I was

 8     able to see there, but I'm not certain.

 9        Q.   Can you tell us the last name of Mujo, please?

10        A.   Memic.

11        Q.   And do you know where Mujo Memic's house was in relation to

12     Jusuf Memic's house?

13        A.   I do.  I do, because that's where my teacher resided.  She also

14     taught my children in Prelovo.  I would go to her house to discuss with

15     her the absences from school of my children.  That's how I know.

16        Q.   Okay.  Now, in your testimony at page 30 in e-court, you state

17     that --

18             MR. CEPIC:  Excuse me.

19             MS. SARTORIO:  Yes.

20             MR. CEPIC:  I apologise, but it would be useful for us if we have

21     that page on our screens just to compare with our notes, please.

22             MS. SARTORIO:  That's fine, Your Honour.  I was trying to save

23     time, but if the court could please bring up -- excuse me.  It's 65 ter

24     number 92.  And it's e-court page 30.

25             May I just -- may I see the previous page, Your Honours, please,

Page 1298

 1     and to scroll down?  I'd like to see the page -- the actual page of the

 2     transcript, if I may.  No.  This is the page, sorry.  Thank you.

 3        Q.   At line 22 it begins, and if I may read it to the witness, your

 4     testimony said:  "Sredoje Lukic came with the people.  He introduced

 5     himself.  I wouldn't have recognised him, but he introduced himself and

 6     said he was Sredoje Lukic ..."

 7             Now, could we move down a bit to the next page.

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Cepic.

 9             MR. CEPIC:  Could we have the number of page in Vasiljevic case?

10             MS. SARTORIO:  That was 15 --

11             MR. CEPIC:  -- 82.  Thank you.

12             MS. SARTORIO:  Now, could we go back to the bottom of 1582,

13     please, again.  The bottom of this page and the top of the next page.

14             One moment, Your Honour.

15             We'll go back to 1582, Your Honours.  We'll go back to 1582,

16     Your Honours.

17        Q.   Where you say that Sredoje introduced himself to you, do you wish

18     to add anything to that statement?

19        A.   Well, no.  I mean, what else could I add?  I didn't know why he

20     came there.

21        Q.   How did you -- okay.  Strike that.  Other than the -- other than

22     the change that we just made with regard to the name of the Memic house,

23     is everything else in your testimony true?

24        A.   Well, I don't know.  If we do ever come across something we can

25     correct it, but I believe that it is true.

Page 1299

 1        Q.   And you did listen to your testimony in full, did you not?

 2        A.   I did.

 3        Q.   And as you listened to the testimony, everything rang true to you

 4     when you listened to it; is that correct?

 5        A.   Well, no.  I was mentioning Sredoje more than Milan, whereas

 6     Milan was the first one in everything.  Sredoje was a bit older than him.

 7        Q.   Okay.  But, Witness --

 8             MS. SARTORIO:  There's an objection, I guess?

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cepic.

10             MR. CEPIC:  Your Honour, just wrong interpretation in transcript.

11     Page 60, line 25, witness said, "Sredoje je bio starija osoba."

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Which being translated is what?

13             MR. CEPIC:  Older than Milan, and it is -- but it is completely

14     different sense.  That is my humble opinion, that she said clearly

15     Sredoje Lukic was older person or --

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Isn't that what is in the transcript, that

17     Sredoje was a bit -- down here.

18             MS. SARTORIO:  May I proceed, Your Honours?  No.  Sorry.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Just ask the witness again.

21             MS. SARTORIO:

22        Q.   As you listened to your testimony, even though you may wish to

23     add some things to your testimony, is everything in that testimony

24     accurate?

25        A.   Everything I said is true, but perhaps those who took statements,

Page 1300

 1     when they printed them maybe they made some mistake, but I'm ready to

 2     correct any statement I made if necessary.  I am not here to tell lies,

 3     and I am going to tell only the truth.  And if I was nervous and made a

 4     mistake, I'm not nervous here.  I'm going to tell you the truth because

 5     I'm talking about my people.  They are also part of my people.  I didn't

 6     know them, and we had two religions in Eastern --

 7        Q.   Yes.  Yes, Madam Witness, we'll get to that in a minute, but I'm

 8     just asking you if there are any changes that you wish to make, any

 9     changes meaning anything that is not correct in your prior testimony that

10     you listened to the other day.

11        A.   I heard more about Sredoje than Milan.  It should be the other

12     way around.  Sredoje and these dates relating to this incident were not

13     congruent.  I only remember it was the fourth day of the Bajram, and that

14     is correct.  And as for other things, I'm not quite sure that they ...

15        Q.   Other than those changes, if you were asked the same questions

16     today that were put to you in your former trial, would your answers be

17     substantively the same?

18        A.   Whatever I know and whatever is true, that's what I'm going to

19     tell you.  What I don't know I will not tell.  I don't remember what I

20     said at the time.  Whatever you asked me and if that is the truth, I will

21     repeat it here.

22             MS. SARTORIO:  Your Honours, we ask that the prior testimony be

23     admitted in evidence.

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P82, under seal, Your Honours.

Page 1301

 1             MS. SARTORIO:  Now we ask the court usher to bring up 65 ter

 2     number 180.

 3        Q.   Now, Madam Witness, you remember giving a statement to a Tribunal

 4     investigator on the 4th of February, 1998?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And again, you had a chance to review this statement, didn't you,

 7     in your language when you came to The Hague?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And again, in your statement, which is on page 6 in both

10     versions, the Bosnian and English, you again mention the house of

11     Jusuf Memic.  And we're going to correct that, is that correct, to say

12     Mujo Memic?

13        A.   I don't know what the Court wants me.  These are father and son

14     and that was the same household, but it's up to you to decide.

15        Q.   I'm just asking if -- again, we have to make the change to your

16     statement and put it on the record, and you just told us --

17        A.   I know that this was the house of Mujo Memic.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Is everything contained in your statement true and

19     accurate to the best of your knowledge?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And if you were asked the questions today that the investigator

22     asked you, would your answers be substantively the same?

23        A.   Yes, they would.

24             MS. SARTORIO:  Your Honours, we ask that statement be admitted in

25     evidence.

Page 1302

 1             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P83, under seal, Your Honours.

 3             MS. SARTORIO:

 4        Q.    Now, Witness, your prior testimony and your statement have both

 5     been admitted in evidence so that the Judges can read everything that you

 6     have to say about the ordeal that you experienced so I'm not going to ask

 7     you to repeat everything, but I'm going to ask you some questions.

 8             Now, in your testimony and in your statement you have mentioned

 9     two dates, the 14th of July and the 14th of June.  Now, as you sit here

10     today, do you remember if this event happened in June or July?

11        A.   I cannot tell you precisely.  I know exactly, and I will remember

12     that until the day I die that it was the fourth day of our great holiday

13     Bajram and that it was a Sunday.  As for the date, whether it was the

14     13th of this month or that month or the 14th, I really cannot tell you.

15     Please don't bother me with that.  I know that it was the fourth day of

16     the Bajram.

17        Q.   Now I would like to draw your attention to that date that is in

18     your mind and to the time of approximately 5.00 in the evening.  Can you

19     tell us where you were?

20        A.   We were in the house of Mujo Memic.

21        Q.   When you say "we," who is "we"?

22        A.   All my people.  All my fellow villagers.  Maybe with the

23     exception of two households, Avdo Kurspahic and Hasan Kurspahic who

24     had -- who had gone to visit their children in town, and the rest of my

25     people who had been living in this village up to that point, we were all

Page 1303

 1     there.

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18        Q.   And had you met any of these men before this evening?

19        A.   No, no.  I didn't.  I didn't know them.  I heard that he was on

20     the police force, I mean Sredoje.  I didn't have any contact with the

21     police before.  Whether he came to the village, I also don't know that.

22     Milan I had never seen before.  And as for this neighbour allegedly from

23     Greben, I didn't know him and didn't see him before, that is to say until

24     the time when he ordered us to take our clothes off.

25        Q.   Now, when they introduced themselves did you hear their voices

Page 1304

 1     clearly?

 2        A.   We heard them.  There were men at the door of another room, and

 3     we heard those surnames mentioned, but we didn't see them until they came

 4     and told us to go to one room.  When we entered the room I wasn't looking

 5     at Sredoje or Milan.  I just remember that these two surnames were

 6     mentioned.  But we were afraid to look at them, let alone to ask them who

 7     they were.

 8        Q.   Now, when you -- you refer to surnames.  What do you consider to

 9     be the surname?  Is it the first or the second name?

10        A.   Theirs you mean?

11        Q.   No, you mentioned in the transcript "surname."  What is a

12     surname?

13        A.   For example, Milan is the first name, Lukic is the second name.

14     Every person has two names, the first name and the last name.

15        Q.   So when you -- you say you remember two surnames were mentioned.

16     Is that what you mean, two surnames were mentioned or two first names

17     were mentioned?

18        A.   Two first names and two last names.  I said two names and two

19     surnames, and I didn't know anything about the third man.  That's why I'm

20     not saying anything about him.  I didn't hear anything.

21        Q.   So you heard their names being mentioned by other people in the

22     room.  Is that what your testimony is?

23        A.   No, no, no, no.  I heard -- it was quiet when they appeared at

24     the door.  It was quiet, and I heard personally about these two.  And

25     for -- as for the third man, one person asked who this man is, and then

Page 1305

 1     he said that he knew his father.  I'm talking about the third man.  And

 2     for these two I heard it 100 per cent.

 3        Q.   Now, during the course of the evening, did you hear their names

 4     being mentioned by anyone else in the room?  Did you discuss these

 5     people?

 6        A.   Well, there was no point in discussing anything.  We just talked

 7     about this thing.  I was lying there.  I didn't go out.  I just heard my

 8     neighbour saying about the man from Greben, and he said, "How come he is

 9     here?"  Because this village is two kilometres away.  "How come he is

10     here?"  That's what we discussed, and he said that he should really be

11     ashamed, because all of us could -- we were old enough to be his mother

12     and he ordered us to strip naked.

13        Q.   During the time period that these three men were at Memic house,

14     did you have an opportunity to see their faces?

15        A.   Well, yes.  Of course I did.

16        Q.   And did you hear them speaking to each other?

17        A.   I don't remember.  I don't know.

18        Q.   Did you hear them speaking in general to other occupants in the

19     house?

20        A.   Could be.  They ordered us to do our job.  I don't know whether

21     they talked to other people.  We thought that we were doomed.  I don't

22     know.  Maybe they talked.  I don't know.  I wouldn't speculate about

23     anything that I know nothing about.

24        Q.   My question, Madam Witness, is did you have an opportunity to

25     hear their voices during that time they were at the Memic house?

Page 1306

 1        A.   Yes.  Yes.  When they arrived, they said, "Give us cash and gold.

 2     Put everything on the table."  He took a knife out of his boot and said,

 3     "This is what we are going to use if we find even the slightest coin on

 4     anyone.  We want all the money and the gold."  This is what I heard.

 5        Q.   When you say he took a knife, can you tell us who "he" is?

 6        A.   I would say Milan.  He was in the forefront.  I'm not sure.

 7     Sredoje was there, but it was Milan who did this.

 8        Q.   Now, how long did these men stay this time -- stay at the Memic

 9     house?

10        A.   Until we gave them all the money and the jewellery.  I had some

11     money on me.  And my sons came to me and said, "Give them -- give it to

12     them, mother.  They're going to kill us."  And I gave all the money that

13     was intended for my children's education and for everything else.  I

14     never thought about weapons.  I was just taking care of my children.

15     They took, I don't know, all my jewellery and put it on the table.  I

16     buried my gold in the garden.  I gave them the money.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Thank you, Witness.  My question -- my next question

18     is, though, after giving them the valuables, did other things happen in

19     the house?

20        A.   As far as I can remember, I think it was Milan who said that we

21     will go to a room in twos and threes, that they would strip us naked.  I

22     was the first next to the door, and I entered the room.  This man whose

23     name I don't know was sitting on a chair.  There was a rifle next to him.

24     Another two persons came into the room with me, and he told me to take my

25     clothes off.  I took my blazer off and a sweater.  He probably wanted to

Page 1307

 1     search me to see whether there was any money or jewellery hidden.  And

 2     then he said, "Can you see this finger of mine?  This is how I want to

 3     see you."  This was horrible.  I took my blouse off and my underwear.  It

 4     just -- well, off.  That was horrendous.  That was worse than being

 5     killed.  I had lived with my husband for 40 years.  I had three children

 6     by him.  I couldn't behave like that in front of him, in front of this

 7     young man, and I was old enough to be his mother.  And after that, I

 8     don't remember how things went on, how I got dressed again.  I heard my

 9     boy crying.  I thought that he was going to be killed.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11        A.   I don't remember anything else.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Thank you, Madam Witness.

13             MS. SARTORIO:  Your Honours, I've been told by my colleague who

14     does speak Bosnian that there was a word left out on the record, so I'm

15     going to ask the witness a question and --

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  Go ahead.

17             MS. SARTORIO:

18        Q.   Madam Witness, when they were doing this to you or just before

19     they did this to you, did they call you any names or did they say

20     anything to you?

21        A.   These two didn't, but the other one when we were taking our

22     clothes off he used to call us "balija."  He asked about the whereabouts

23     of my husband.  I told him that he was in Montenegro, that he went

24     through the woods.  He called me "balija."

25             As for the other two, they didn't.  Whether they entered this

Page 1308

 1     room or not, I don't know.  Some say that Milan did.  I don't know.  And

 2     they were searching the men.  No, no, not these two.

 3        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  Now, can I -- how long did all of this take?

 4     Can you just give us an approximate time that these men were in this

 5     house with you?

 6        A.   I don't know.  There were a lot of women there, and they all took

 7     turns.  After that I went to this room and laid down.  The women were

 8     ushered in twos or threes.  They were also searching men.  Perhaps one

 9     hour and -- or one hour and a half.  I didn't have a wristwatch.  How can

10     I know the time.

11        Q.   But during this time, was it you were in fear and were you

12     thinking about the circumstances and who was around?

13        A.   Some other heard there, but I'm not going to talk about it

14     because I didn't see it with my eyes.  One could hear something from

15     outside the house.  I'm not here to speak about anything that I

16     personally didn't see or go through.

17        Q.   Now, at some point these men left, and then did they return to

18     the house?

19        A.   They collected the jewellery and the money and said, "We are

20     going now to spend it on food and drink."  They got into the car in which

21     they had arrived, and when they were at the door Jasmina was next to me.

22     She was washing my face, and he said, "You, Vila, and you in the leather

23     jacket come out."  She was a young woman, maybe 17 or 18.

24        Q.   And who is -- who is he?  You said, "He said, 'You, Vila, and you

25     in the leather jacket, come out.'"  Who said that if you can recall?

Page 1309

 1        A.   Milan said that.

 2        Q.   And then after this event did they leave the house?

 3        A.   All the three of them went and these two women went with them.  I

 4     was lying on the ground.  Jasmina came again, crouched next to me because

 5     she was in my house at the time when we left.  That was in Koritnik.  And

 6     she came again to wash my face.  I was so ashamed to ask her what she was

 7     told.  She asked her sister-in-law, but I didn't hear what she replied.

 8     Actually, she didn't say anything.  She just averted her eyes.  I don't

 9     remember her -- telling her anything.

10        Q.   Now, after the three men -- did you notice what -- anything about

11     the vehicle -- or did they come in a vehicle and, if so, did you notice

12     anything about the vehicle?

13        A.   They came in a car, and they went away in a car.  The women

14     didn't get into the car.  I don't think so.  I don't know.

15        Q.   Did you hear the car leaving?

16        A.   Yes.  It was a very noisy car, as if it didn't have an exhaust

17     pipe.

18        Q.   Okay.  Now, what did the occupants of this room do after the men

19     left?

20        A.   Whether they came before or later, two soldiers came.  The men

21     were sitting up there, and they just said, "You and you, come out to bury

22     two dead bodies."  Then again, "You and you, come out.  There are two

23     bodies in the creek."  And the four men went out with these men while two

24     went towards Nezuci and the other two went towards Babin Potok, that is

25     to say, to bury two corpses.

Page 1310

 1             They came back.  They were not maltreated.  They said that they

 2     had buried Safet, our vet, and his wife.  And the body in Nezuci was

 3     Alija, and my neighbour said you just couldn't go near him.  He was full

 4     of maggots.

 5        Q.   Thank you, Witness.  When you were in the room at this time did

 6     any of the people talk about what had happened with the men who were

 7     there at the house earlier?

 8        A.   Yes, Edhem said, and I heard him say that, "Imagine these

 9     bastards who came among their people."  I heard him saying the full name

10     of this young man, who his parents were.  I wasn't paying attention.  I

11     just remember that he mentioned his nickname, Lalco.  That's all I know.

12        Q.   Was there any discussion about Milan and Sredoje Lukic during

13     this time?

14        A.   No, no.  People were afraid.  Well, they said nicely, "We are not

15     going touch you.  The following day you will be given buses to leave."

16     If they had been treating us fairly, maybe we would have gone our ways.

17     We wouldn't have had to go through what we did.  We didn't want to

18     disperse, because there were people who were feeble and infirm.  They

19     didn't maltreat us at all.

20        Q.   Yes.  Thank you, Witness.  My question is, though, do you know if

21     anyone in the room with you recognised Milan and Sredoje, and by

22     knowing -- did anybody tell you that they knew who these men were?

23        A.   Yes.  Jasmina told me that it was Milan Lukic but not -- I didn't

24     hear anything about Sredoje.  She said that it was Milan Lukic because

25     she lived in Musici by the main road, and probably they passed by.  I'm

Page 1311

 1     not going to go into that.  Jasmina's mother can come here and she can

 2     tell you all the details.  She is alive, and she's faring better than I

 3     am.  I came here because my neighbours begged me to do so.  I'm on

 4     medication, but I think it's better for Jasmina's mother to come here and

 5     tell you all the details.

 6        Q.   Thank you, Witness.  Now, some --

 7             MS. SARTORIO:  Is this the proper time to take the break,

 8     Your Honour?

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  We adjourn.

10                           --- Recess taken at 12.09 p.m.

11                           --- On resuming at 12.53 p.m.

12             MS. SARTORIO:  May I proceed, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

14             MS. SARTORIO:  Just for the record, Your Honour, we would like to

15     substitute the pseudonym sheet that contains the names and pseudonyms of

16     the witnesses that may be referred to by this witness.  The letters -- we

17     had to make the letters larger so that the witness could see the names,

18     so may we make that substitution?

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

20             MS. SARTORIO:  Thank you.

21        Q.   Mrs. Witness -- sorry.  Mrs. Witness, now I'd like to take you

22     back to the Memic house and later in the evening and ask you if anyone

23     returned to the house.

24        A.   I don't understand the question.

25        Q.   That probably is my fault.  Later in the evening did anyone, any

Page 1312

 1     of the men that you saw earlier in the day, come back to the house?

 2        A.   To Memic's?

 3        Q.   Yes.

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   At some point did you leave the Memic house?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And do you remember approximately what time that was?

 8        A.   10.00, 10.30.

 9        Q.   Now, how is it that you came to leave the Memic house?  Was there

10     something that happened that caused you to leave?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And what was that?

13        A.   Well, we were sitting, the children were asleep.  The same car

14     arrived as before, the one that arrived at 5.00 p.m., just before dark.

15     They got out of the car and outside the house, under the windows, a man

16     approached the door and told us that we should leave, that we were not

17     safe there, that Green Berets were arriving from up there and that we

18     should move over to the other house to be safer, that we should not take

19     our belongings with us, that we would be picking them up later.

20        Q.   Now, when you say the same car arrived as before, how do you know

21     that it was the same car?

22        A.   Well, I knew the car.  We heard the sound.  One of our neighbours

23     who lived by the road told us, "Now they'll kill us and burn us."  That's

24     what she said.  And even those of us who were a bit further away from her

25     overheard her say that.

Page 1313

 1        Q.   Now did you know who the soldier was who approached the door?

 2        A.   I wouldn't be able to tell you.  It must have been one of the

 3     two, but I can't be precise, because as soon as they arrived the people

 4     became upset.  The children had to be woken.  There were women among us

 5     who had children aged 1 or 3, and there was a lot of noise all of a

 6     sudden.  People were protesting about having to move to the other house.

 7     They said, "Why should we move to that other house?"  I wouldn't be able

 8     to tell you exactly.

 9             One of the two did arrive.  I knew by the sound of their voice

10     that it was the same ones who had been there before.

11        Q.   And who were the -- who were those -- who were they?  You have to

12     put that on the record and tell the Judges what you mean by "they."  Who

13     were the same ones who had been there before?  Sorry.

14        A.   Well, who else but Sredoje and Milan.  One of the two approached

15     the door only, but they were the only ones who knew that we were there.

16     They were the ones who left us there.  By their voice, by the sound of

17     the car, and by the story that he told us politely, we knew who he was.

18     He wasn't one of us, but he was quite polite, and he told us that we had

19     to leave.

20        Q.   And did any of the other persons in the house other than the

21     woman you just mentioned saying "They'll kill us and burn us," did anyone

22     say the names of those people?  Did anyone talk about who these men were?

23        A.   Yes.  Yes.  Everybody was shouting, "The Lukics.  Here.  The

24     Lukics are coming again."  There is one lady who said, "Here, the Lukics

25     are coming over again.  We're done for."

Page 1314

 1        *Q.   So then what happened next?  Did you leave the house?

 2        A.   Yes, we did.  I was among the last to leave.  (redacted)

 3     (redacted) so I was among the last to go down to that

 4     house.  They were on both sides in relation to us as we were moving to

 5     the other house, and as we reached the door of the house there were

 6     perhaps three or four of them milling around us.  People were getting

 7     into the house, and as soon as I heard those other women say --

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Just a minute.  It's been brought to my

 9     attention that there's a reference that should be redacted, or should we

10     be in closed session?  Are you going to -- are you going to be on this

11     subject?

12             MS. SARTORIO:  Yes, I think we should probably go into closed

13     session, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cepic?

15             MR. CEPIC:  I think page 75, line 17, name, just to be redacted.

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, we saw that.

17             MS. SARTORIO:  No, it's line 15, but I think she's going to be

18     talking about what happened, and she may be referring to this person.

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  Private session.

20        [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Chamber]

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're in private session.

22             MS. SARTORIO:

23        Q.   And when -- and you say you left -- you left the Memic house.

24     You went to another house.  Do you remember whose house that was?

25        A.   I do.  It was the house of Adem Omeragic, whose sister with her

Page 1315

 1     daughter-in-law and two children came there to spend the night in that

 2     house since we were supposed to take the bus the following morning, the

 3     following day.  I do remember that this was the house belonging to this

 4     neighbour's brother.

 5        Q.   And how long did it take you to walk from the Memic house to this

 6     second house?

 7        A.   Less than 20 metres.

 8        Q.   And did you see any of the men that were escorting the group?

 9        A.   Yes, we did, but we didn't dare to look directly at them.  We

10     looked at their feet and made sure that we went to where we were told to

11     go.  We didn't dare to watch them.

12        Q.   Did they speak with you at all as you were walking?

13        A.   No, not at all.  They were making fun.  And as I was the last one

14     to enter, he told me, "Get in, balija.  What are you waiting for?  Where

15     is Alija now to help you?"

16        Q.   So this is -- when you say you were the last one to enter, are

17     you talking about entering the Omeragic house now?

18        A.   Yes.  Yes, precisely.  I mean the Omeragic house.  I was the last

19     one to enter the house or the last but one.  Perhaps there was another

20     woman behind me.  I know that there was no space in the room.  It was so

21     full of people that I hesitated at the door, and he pushed me inside.

22        Q.   You say "he," "he pushed me inside," and "he told me --"

23        A.   A soldier.  A soldier.  I don't know who he was.  I didn't look

24     him in the face.

25        Q.   Did you recognise his voice?

Page 1316

 1        A.   But he was one of those who -- yes.  It was those people who told

 2     us to move.  He was with us as we set out from the other house.

 3        Q.   And, Madam Witness, you have to tell us who "those" are.  You

 4     have to tell the Judges who "those" are.

 5        A.   Well, the Lukics, who else?  I've said this so many times now.

 6     Now, whether it was Milan or Sredoje, I didn't lift my head to see which

 7     one was next to me.  I didn't dare to.  I was trying to make sure that I

 8     know where I was heading rather than looking at who was it who was

 9     pushing me ahead.

10        Q.   But you heard the voice of the person?

11        A.   Yes.  Yes.  Even now I remember that there was something pushing

12     me in the back.  I don't know whether it was a rifle or something else,

13     but I do recall those words, "Where is Alija now to help you?"

14        Q.   And was the person -- the voice that you heard say, "Where is

15     Alija now to help you," is that the voice of someone that you had seen

16     earlier in the Memic house?

17             MR. ALARID:  Objection.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, yes.

19             MR. ALARID:  Objection.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Alarid.

21             MR. ALARID:  Objection.  Leading and unduly suggestive.

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  Next question, Ms. Sartorio.  It was

23     leading.

24             MS. SARTORIO:

25        Q.   The person who said, "Where is Alija now to help you," did you

Page 1317

 1     recognise that voice?

 2        A.   Well, yes.  It must have been one of the two who told us that,

 3     one of those who came to the house, because he accompanied us all the

 4     way.  There were others on the other side, but this one was following us

 5     to make sure that we all got there, and I was among the last ones, so he

 6     was following me, and he was the one who said, "Where's Alija now to help

 7     you?"

 8        Q.   And when you heard this, did you associate this voice with any

 9     person --

10             MR. ALARID:  Objection, leading.

11             MS. SARTORIO:  I'm asking --

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Let me hear the rest of the question.

13             MS. SARTORIO:  That was the question.  Did you associate this

14     voice with any person.

15             MR. ALARID:  And I would say asked and answered at that point,

16     Your Honour.

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I don't think that's leading.

18             Answer the question.  Did you associate that voice with any

19     person?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes.  It was either Sredoje

21     or Milan.  Who else could it have been?  Yes.  That was what they wanted

22     to do, to finish us off.  I realised as I was coming to the house that

23     this is where we all meet our end.

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  But can you say which of the two the voice

25     belonged to?  You said it was either Milan or Sredoje.

Page 1318

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't say that.  I didn't look

 2     them in the face to see which one was saying those words.  One of them

 3     was following me, and most probably it was the one who came to the house

 4     and that must have been Milan.  But I didn't look him in the face.  When

 5     they were talking, I didn't dare to look up.  I just proceeded on my way.

 6             MS. SARTORIO:

 7        Q.   So now, Witness, please tell the Chamber after you got into the

 8     second house, tell them what happened.

 9        A.   When I entered the house they closed the door.  A burst of fire

10     was shot.  The door was opened again and they said, "Listen, can you hear

11     the Green Berets shooting up there beyond Babin Potok?"  They closed the

12     door again.  The people inside were crying.  They were upset.  We knew

13     that they were either going to kill us all or burn us.

14             I turned toward the window, and as I reached the window I lost

15     control.  There was my child there.  I reached the window, and as the

16     door opened, a flame appeared as large as the door itself.  I turned

17     toward the window trying to smash the pane to let some air in.  There was

18     smoke that was choking me.  I placed my left hand on my mouth, and I used

19     my right hand to smash at the window.  I tried five or six times before

20     the windowpane was smashed.

21             I tried to go out that way, and I heard a grenade explode.  There

22     was a sort of a mesh there that was on my way, and I had trouble going

23     through the window, but my child approached me from the back and pushed

24     me out of the window.  I felt something wet on my hand.  It was a bit

25     paralysed.  My child pushed me out of the window and said, "Let's run

Page 1319

 1     away, mom."  I was unable to run, so he pulled me towards the creek, and

 2     as he pulled me by the creek we got into it.

 3             At that point there was light from a flashlight torch behind us,

 4     but we managed to duck down, cross the creek and hide behind the tree.

 5     They turned toward other individuals who were trying to run for their

 6     lives.

 7             It had been raining the whole day and night.  We spent the night

 8     by the creek and then went up where we found a safe place to hide.  We

 9     listened for -- we listened to the screams and moans for an hour or two.

10     We were by the creek, crouching one by the other.

11             We heard somebody coming up the creek.  We were afraid that they

12     were looking for us, but it was one individual who managed to get away

13     and who went past us.  We didn't dare shout to the person for fear that

14     we would be discovered.

15             The person went up the creek, and it was another individual who

16     managed to survive and flee the fire.

17        Q.   Yes.  Thank you.  Could you tell us if you know that person and

18     any other persons who escaped the fire that night?

19        A.   Yes, I know the person.  Had they all managed to escape, I would

20     not be the only one to go back to my village, the only one alive.

21        Q.   Can you give us the names of the persons that you know survived?

22        A.   Well, I don't know.  Let me see here.

23        Q.   You're in closed session, so you can use the names.

24        A.   Under number 13, and number 38, and number 84.

25        Q.   And do you know many of the persons who perished in that fire


Page 1320

 1     that night?

 2        A.   Of course.  Of course I do.  I had been living with them for 28

 3     years.  Of course I knew them.  I was there when they were born, when

 4     they were married.  I know them all.

 5        Q.   Witness 18, can you tell the Chamber what impact this ordeal has

 6     had on your life?

 7        A.   I cannot find the words to describe that.  I'm already nearing my

 8     end, but number 84 ...

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13                           [Open session]

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're in open session.

15             MS. SARTORIO:  Shall we proceed, Your Honour?

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, yes.

17             MS. SARTORIO:

18        Q.   Witness, would you like to tell the Chamber what impact this

19     ordeal has had on your life?

20        A.   It had impact in every possible way.  I've become forgetful.  My

21     nerves are at the end of their tethers.  I'm restless.  I suffer from

22     high blood pressure.  Whenever I go to Visegrad or to that village of

23     mine, there are ladies calling me for a cup of coffee here and there.  I

24     go over there, cry my heart out and then come back home.  That's how I

25     feel.  That's -- it's no way to feel that way.

Page 1321

 1        Q.   Now, Witness, I'd like to ask you, if you would, if you would

 2     take a look around this courtroom and carefully look at everyone and tell

 3     me if you recognise anyone in this courtroom other than myself and

 4     Mr. Groome and Amir Zec.  Could you do that for me?

 5        A.   Well, of course I do recognise.  They are my people too.  I

 6     didn't come here to say things that are not true or to lie.  I'm almost

 7     70.  Of course I can recognise them.  They went to school with my

 8     children.  Milan might even be of the same age as my children.  But I

 9     have to.  I have sworn that I would come here and speak the truth for all

10     those whose children perished, parents perished.  Let me swear and let me

11     swear by number 84 that I didn't utter a single word that would not be

12     inaccurate, and I swear by this number 84 with whom I have been living

13     alone since the end the war.

14             Of course I know them.  I know them both.  I'm very sorry, but I

15     have to speak up because my village has remained deserted and empty.

16     There's nobody there.  You can hear the birds chirping in the forest but

17     I have no one there.

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you, Witness.

19             MS. SARTORIO:  I'm sorry, Your Honour.  I would just --

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I would like to find out the significance of 84.

21             MS. SARTORIO:  Your Honour, then we may have to go into private

22     session.

23             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Into private session.

24                           [Private session]

25   (redacted)

Page 1322

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16                           [Open session]

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're in open session.

18             MS. SARTORIO:

19        Q.   Madam, you did answer -- you talked a minute ago about knowing

20     some persons.  You have to say on the record the names of these persons

21     and -- and describe them.  This has to be on the record, if you would.

22     So please tell us who you recognise.

23             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Just a minute, Mr. Alarid is on his feet.

24             MR. ALARID:  Your Honour, we again would object to the unduly

25     suggestive nature of this identification.

Page 1323

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  She has been asked to -- she has been asked to

 3     say on record the names of the persons, and we hear the objection you

 4     have made.  The witness is to provide the answer.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot be more precise.  It's

 6     been so many years.  Which is which?  Which is Milan, which is Sredoje, I

 7     can't do this.  I only know that one of them is Milan and the other one

 8     is Sredoje, but I can't be more precise than that.  I can't.  My eyesight

 9     is very poor.

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you.

11             MS. SARTORIO:  Yes.  One last question.  May we bring up the

12     transcript that was admitted in evidence and -- that's Exhibit number 82,

13     Your Honours, and page 52 in e-court, please.  It's page 1604 of the

14     transcript.

15             Could you scroll down.  Okay.

16        Q.   At the bottom, you were asked about a person being called Mico or

17     Milorad.

18             We can go to the top of the next page, please.

19             Now, when you were asked about Mico or Milorad, do you know who

20     this person is that you were being asked about?  Who is Mico or Milorad?

21        A.   I know Mico from Lipovac [as interpreted].  His name is Milorad

22     or something like that -- or, rather, Milorad Lipovac is his name.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24        A.   I know him from Podgreben.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 1324

 1             MS. SARTORIO:  I have no further questions.

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you.

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  The Chamber has considered the condition of the

 5     witness, who is obviously distressed, and we believe that we should

 6     adjourn at this time and allow her to recompose herself over the weekend.

 7     So we will adjourn now.

 8             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I apologise, but I had notified the

 9     legal officer earlier there is an important matter that I did want to

10     bring to the attention of the Chamber.  If that would be possible to do

11     that perhaps after excusing the witness.

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

13                           [The witness withdrew]

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Groome.

15             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, could we do this in private session,

16     please.

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Private session.

18                           [Private session]

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 1325











11  Pages 1325-1326 redacted. Private session.















Page 1327

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.30 p.m.,

25                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 8th day

Page 1328

 1                           of September, 2008, at 2.15 p.m.

























* The bold and italicised text was previously confidential pursuant to a redaction order of the Chamber. The status of this redaction order has been changed from confidential to public per Chamber's decision dated 4 August 2011.