1 Wednesday, 17 September 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 8.51 a.m.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome.
7 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, on Monday morning you asked me to
8 address two queries, so just briefly to respond to the Chamber. With
9 respect to VG-17 and its omission from the 12th of September document or
10 schedule, that was an oversight. I have provided a new updated version
11 of that to the -- to the court officer as well as to the Defence counsel
12 this morning, which includes all of the intended witnesses until the end
13 of the Prosecution case.
14 And the second query had to do with VG-002. The Prosecution will
15 be filing a motion with respect to the submission of written testimony in
16 lieu of oral evidence this morning, Your Honour. Thank you.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Let the witness make the
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
20 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
21 WITNESS: WITNESS VG-89
22 [Witness answered through interpreter]
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit.
24 And you may begin.
25 MR. WEBER: Good morning, Your Honours. Could the court usher
1 please hand to the witness the pseudonym sheet.
2 Examination by Mr. Weber:
3 Q. VG-89, you've been granted certain protective measures by the
4 Trial Chamber. I would like to direct your attention to the sheet before
5 you. That's a pseudonym sheet. Do you recognise your name on that
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Does your date of birth also appear on that sheet?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. VG-89, could you please sign that sheet at the bottom.
11 MR. WEBER: At this time, the Prosecution tenders the pseudonym
12 sheet into evidence.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: It will be admitted.
14 THE REGISTRAR: It will be admitted as Exhibit P103 under seal,
15 Your Honours.
16 MR. WEBER:
17 Q. VG-89, how old were you in May of 1992?
18 A. 14.
19 Q. Were you in school in the spring of 1992?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. What school did you attend?
22 A. Vuk Karadzic Primary School in Visegrad.
23 Q. What year in school were you at the beginning of 1992?
24 A. Year 8, class D.
25 Q. What municipality or town did you live in during May 1992?
1 A. In Visegrad.
2 Q. Did you live in a particular settlement within Visegrad?
3 A. Yes. Nova Mahala, it was called.
4 Q. Who did you live with in the Nova Mahala settlement of Visegrad?
5 A. With my grandmother and my mother.
6 Q. How long did you live in Visegrad prior to 1992?
7 A. Eight years.
8 Q. At the beginning of May 1992, who occupied the town of Visegrad
9 A. Serb soldiers.
10 Q. Are you aware of a particular division of the Serb soldiers that
11 were occupying Visegrad?
12 A. The Uzice Corps.
13 Q. How long were the Uzice Corps in Visegrad?
14 A. Until the 19th of May, 1992.
15 Q. What happened after the Uzice Corps left Visegrad?
16 A. Serb paramilitary units started taking away and killing Muslim
18 Q. Is there a particular incident that you heard of immediately
19 after the Uzice Corps left Visegrad involving the Serb paramilitary
21 A. Behija Zukic was killed, and she used to own a grocery store in
23 Q. Where was this grocery store in relation to the Nova Mahala
25 A. Across the street from the cinema.
1 Q. What was the date that you heard of the killing of Behija Zukic?
2 A. 21st May, 1992
3 Q. Where were you when you heard of her death?
4 A. In the 22nd December Street.
5 Q. Who informed you of her death?
6 A. Local Muslim residents.
7 Q. With respect to Behija Zukic, did she own any type of car?
8 A. A Volkswagen Passat, burgundy.
9 Q. Was this Passat notable within the Visegrad municipality?
10 A. Yes. At that time it was the best car in town.
11 Q. Were there any other red Volkswagen Passats in Visegrad?
12 A. No.
13 Q. I'd like to return to the 21st of May, 1992. After you heard
14 of -- well, what -- what is it that you were told by the local Muslim
15 residents of Behija Zukic's death?
16 A. I was told that Behija Zukic was killed, whereas her husband and
17 son had been taken away.
18 Q. Was any name mentioned in conjunction with her death?
19 A. Yes. Milan
20 Q. Did you have occasion to go anywhere on the 21st of May, 1992
21 after you learned of Behija Zukic's death?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Where did you go?
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: It might be as well just to find out exactly
25 what he heard about Milan Lukic in relation to Behija Zukic's death.
1 MR. WEBER: Very well, Your Honour.
2 Q. VG-89, what exactly did you hear about Milan Lukic in relation to
3 the death of Behija Zukic?
4 A. I heard that Milan Lukic killed Behija Zukic, took away her
5 husband and son, and seized her car.
6 Q. Where did you go after learning of Behija Zukic's death?
7 A. Towards the Muslim cemetery.
8 Q. Where's the Muslim cemetery located in Visegrad?
9 A. At the exit from the town towards Serbia.
10 Q. Approximately what time did you go towards the cemetery?
11 A. In the afternoon.
12 Q. Was anyone with you when you went to the cemetery?
13 A. A friend was with me.
14 Q. Are you comfortable providing your friend's name, or would you
15 like to go into closed session for that?
16 A. It is all right for me to say his name.
17 Q. Could you please use the first name of your friend.
18 A. Almir.
19 Q. How old was Almir at this time?
20 A. 14.
21 Q. What did you see when you and Almir arrived at the cemetery?
22 A. We saw around a hundred people at the Muslim cemetery.
23 Q. When you observed these a hundred people, where were you and
24 Almir at?
25 A. Across the street from the cemetery, next to the Ina petrol
2 Q. Approximately how far were you from the group of people?
3 A. A hundred and fifty metres or so.
4 Q. Were you elevated or on ground level?
5 A. As these people were coming, we were on slightly higher ground,
6 and then as they went on moving they went higher than -- than we were.
7 Q. Whose funeral were you watching?
8 A. Behija Zukic's funeral and another Muslim nicknamed Medo and his
10 Q. Did anything happen towards the end of the funeral?
11 A. Yes. A car showed up -- or, rather, a small truck. We call it a
12 small TAM
13 Q. Were there any other vehicles with this TAM truck?
14 A. Yes, a smaller vehicle, but I can't remember which type. At any
15 rate, it was not the burgundy Volkswagen Passat.
16 Q. Could you please describe the TAM truck?
17 A. A small TAM
18 Q. Where did the TAM
19 A. They parked outside the entrance to the Muslim cemetery.
20 Q. Where was this entrance in relation to where you and Almir were
22 A. Approximately 150 metres.
23 Q. Could you still see the group that was present at the funeral
24 along with the truck and the car?
25 A. Yes, we could.
1 Q. After the truck and the car pulled up, what occurred?
2 A. People started coming back from the cemetery, and then the men
3 from the truck and that little car stopped them at the entrance.
4 Q. How many men got out of the truck and car?
5 A. Four or five.
6 Q. What were these four or five men wearing?
7 A. Camouflage army uniforms.
8 Q. Who did you believe them to be?
9 A. Serb paramilitaries.
10 Q. Did you later learn [Realtime transcript read in error, "then"]
11 the names or name of any of the individuals who exited either the truck
12 or the car?
13 A. Yes.
14 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, I believe in line 9 of the transcript it
15 says, "did you later then." The question that was posed was, "did you
16 later learn the names." If there could be a correction.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
18 MR. WEBER:
19 Q. Who did you see that exited the truck that you later learned the
20 name of?
21 A. Milan
22 Q. Could you please describe what happened as the people exited from
23 the funeral of Behija Zukic and towards Milan Lukic and the other Serb
25 A. Milan Lukic and the others approached them, told them something,
1 but we couldn't hear what because we were too far away.
2 Q. After Milan Lukic and the others approached the group and told
3 them something, what happened?
4 A. They started shoving the Muslims in the back of the TAM truck.
5 Q. Did you recognise the Muslims that were being shoved in the back
6 of the TAM
7 A. No. I knew some of them by sight, but they were older people
8 that I didn't know at the time.
9 Q. Approximately how many Muslims were shoved into the back of the
11 A. Around 15.
12 Q. What did the other people besides these 15 Muslims do when this
13 was occurring?
14 A. They started running in a panic all across the cemetery towards
15 the woods.
16 Q. At this time, was Milan Lukic and the other soldiers armed?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. What did you see after these Muslims were placed into the TAM
20 A. They went down the main street into town.
21 Q. When you say "they," who are you referring to?
22 A. I mean those two cars and the Serb soldiers who took away the
23 Muslim civilians.
24 Q. Just for clarification, are you referring to two cars or the car
25 and the TAM
1 A. I mean one car and one little TAM truck. At that moment, I
2 noticed that the other vehicle was white.
3 Q. Did you ever see those 15 Muslims again?
4 A. I had not seen much of them before, but after that I hadn't heard
5 or seen them anymore.
6 Q. After the funeral of Behija Zukic, did there come a time where
7 you and your mother sought to leave the Visegrad area?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Approximately when was this?
10 A. In the first week of June.
11 Q. What was the reason that you and your mother attempted to leave
13 A. So as not to meet the same fate as those people who had been
14 taken away along with many others.
15 Q. How were you and your mother planning to leave Visegrad?
16 A. We planned to leave in a convoy to Macedonia, to Skopje
17 Q. Where was this convoy leaving from?
18 A. From a location between the Borac department store in town and a
19 sports hall nearby.
20 Q. Approximately what time did you and your mother go to meet this
22 A. Early in the afternoon.
23 Q. When you and your mother arrived in the area of the Borac
24 department store and the sports hall, did you see anyone else?
25 A. Yes, around a hundred and fifty Muslims who were also trying to
1 leave with the same convoy.
2 Q. Did you recognise anyone that was amongst these 150 Muslims?
3 A. Yes, I did.
4 Q. Was this another family from your settlement?
5 A. Yes. More than one family.
6 Q. Did you and your mother go over and join this family?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. What was the name of this family?
9 A. Dervisevic.
10 Q. What happened after you and your mother met with this family?
11 A. Fifteen minutes later, the burgundy Volkswagen Passat appeared.
12 Q. When the Volkswagen Passat appeared, did you see anyone inside of
14 A. Yes, I did.
15 Q. Approximately how far was the Volkswagen Passat from you when it
16 first arrived?
17 A. 20 metres or so.
18 Q. Did you see anyone got out of the Volkswagen Passat?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. How many people did you see exit the Volkswagen Passat?
21 A. [Previous translation continues] ... men.
22 Q. I'm sorry, we did not get the complete answer. VG-89, how many
23 people did you see exit the Volkswagen Passat?
24 A. Two.
25 Q. Had you seen these two men before?
1 A. Only once.
2 Q. When was the one time that you had seen these two men before?
3 A. At Behija Zukic's funeral.
4 Q. Could you physically describe each of these two men?
5 A. Yes. One of them was 25, 26 years old, tall, around 195
6 [Realtime transcript read in error, "125"] centimetres, black hair,
7 wearing a camouflage uniform.
8 Q. How would you describe the other man?
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute. Mr. Cepic.
10 MR. CEPIC: Your Honour, I think that we have mistake in
11 translation. Page 11, line 4. It is not 125 centimetres. Witness said
12 different, different measure in B/C/S.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: I heard 195.
14 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, that's also what I heard.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Proceed.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The other one was short and stocky,
17 not more than 170 centimetres tall, older, perhaps 35 years old, and he
18 had a moustache, black hair and black moustache, also wearing a
19 camouflage uniform.
20 Q. Were these men carrying anything?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. What were they carrying?
23 A. The shorter one had an automatic rifle, and the taller one had a
24 sniper rifle.
25 Q. After these two men arrived where did they go?
1 A. They approached this crowd of people.
2 Q. What happened as these two men approached the crowd of a hundred
3 and fifty Muslims?
4 A. First, they were looking for a man by name, but when they
5 realised he wasn't there, then the taller one who had some sort of list
6 in his hands, when the buses arrived he told the people which bus to
8 Q. Prior to the buses arriving, did you see any type of conversation
9 between this taller man and anyone that was in the group?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. What did you observe?
12 A. He approached my friend's sister, addressed her by name and said
13 she was -- she used to be his schoolmate.
14 Q. Did your friend's sister say anything back at that time?
15 A. Yes. She greeted him and addressed him by name as well.
16 Q. What name did your friend's sister use when she greeted this
17 taller man?
18 A. Milan
19 Q. How far were you from Milan Lukic when your friend's sister
20 greeted him?
21 A. I was next to him, standing to his left in this little circle of
23 Q. When you say next to him, how far was he?
24 A. Half a metre.
25 Q. What view of his face did you have during this conversation?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Were you able to view Milan Lukic from the front or side during
3 this conversation?
4 A. From the front.
5 Q. Approximately how long did Milan Lukic engage in conversation
6 with your friend's sister?
7 A. Two or three minutes.
8 Q. After this conversation, what occurred?
9 A. The buses arrived.
10 Q. What did the group of a hundred and fifty people do after the
11 buses arrived?
12 A. They started getting onto the buses just as the tall man I didn't
13 know at the time was telling them to as to who should go where.
14 Q. How many buses were there?
15 A. Four.
16 Q. How were the a hundred and fifty Muslims being told to get onto
17 the buses?
18 A. The women and children went to some of the buses, and the men
19 were taken separately to some other buses.
20 Q. The person that your friend's sister identified as Milan Lukic,
21 what was he doing?
22 A. He was standing at the bus door, and he was telling everyone
23 where to go. He was holding slips of paper in his hand with names of
24 people on them.
25 Q. Did you and your mother get onto one of the buses?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What bus did you get onto?
3 A. The second one, the second one in line.
4 Q. Where did you and your mother sit after -- well, when you first
5 got onto the bus?
6 A. I went to the back of the bus with my friend, and my mother was
7 about five or six rows in front of us.
8 Q. Who is this friend that you're referring to?
9 A. Almir.
10 Q. At some point in time, did you relocate by your mother?
11 A. My friend's sister took us there because we were making too much
12 noise in the bus.
13 Q. Where did you sit by your mother?
14 A. Right next to her. My mother had the window seat, and then as
15 soon as I came she moved over, and I took the window seat.
16 Q. Did the buses then depart Visegrad?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. At some point in time after the buses left Visegrad, were they
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Where were they stopped?
22 A. At the border to Serbia
23 Q. Was there a particular village or town in which the buses were
25 A. Jagodina.
1 Q. Could you please describe what happened when the buses were
2 stopped in Jagodina?
3 A. We were still sitting in that bus for about 20 minutes. We
4 didn't know what was going on, and we didn't have their permission to
5 leave the bus.
6 Q. When you're saying "their permission," who are you referring to?
7 A. The permission of the Serbs who were there. There was a car
8 tailing us, tailing the last bus in our convoy. The drivers were the
9 only Serbs there, and they were allowed to leave.
10 Q. This car that was tailing you, could you please tell us what car
11 that was?
12 A. The same car that was parked there before we started out.
13 Q. What was the make of that car, and who did it formally belong to?
14 A. It was a Volkswagen Passat, the one that used to belong to the
15 Zukic family, but during the war it was driven by Milan Lukic.
16 Q. Did you see any individuals that you saw prior in the square when
17 the buses were stopped in Jagodina?
18 A. Yes, just a single person.
19 Q. Who did you see?
20 A. Milan
21 Q. When did you again see Milan Lukic when the buses stopped in
23 A. When we were on our way back to Visegrad. The men were on the
24 last bus. They left them there, but they took us back. As the bus was
25 moving back in the same direction and turning, I saw Milan Lukic line up
1 all the men in a single line next to the bus.
2 Q. Just to backtrack a little bit, at some point in time were the
3 buses turned away from proceeding towards Macedonia?
4 A. Yes. They were on their way back to Visegrad.
5 Q. How were you informed of this?
6 A. The Serb driver came back onto the bus, and he said, "We've got
7 to take you back to Visegrad."
8 Q. How did the people on the bus react when they were told this?
9 A. Most started crying.
10 Q. Is that the point in time in which the buses turned around to
11 head back towards Visegrad?
12 A. Yes, and everybody on those buses were looking out to see what
13 would happen to that last bus.
14 Q. Was it at the point in time that the buses were turning around
15 that you were able to see Milan Lukic in the single line of men next to
16 the bus?
17 A. That's right. The road was narrow at that point, and it took
18 some time for the buses to turn around. I had about five or six minutes
19 to notice Milan Lukic. He was facing in my direction, and the men who
20 were lined up faced away from me.
21 Q. Was Milan Lukic carrying anything at this time?
22 A. The same sniper rifle that I had seen him carry at the parking
23 lot before we started out.
24 Q. What happened as your bus proceeded past the line of people?
25 A. They sent us back to that house in Visegrad.
1 Q. When you say "they," are you referring to you and your mother,
2 along with the rest of the Muslims that were with you?
3 A. Yes. The three buses were sent back, and the one bus was held
5 Q. Which one bus was held back?
6 A. The fourth bus with the men.
7 Q. After you returned to Visegrad with your mother, did you have
8 occasion to see Milan Lukic again?
9 A. Many times.
10 Q. Did you have occasion to be with Almir by the bank of the river
11 Rzav on any date?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. What was that date?
14 A. The 12th of June, 1992.
15 Q. Where's the Rzav River
16 A. It's near the Drina
17 Q. Approximately what time did you and Almir go to the bank of the
19 A. That afternoon.
20 Q. What did you see when you arrived?
21 A. Another couple of men watching another man fishing.
22 Q. Did you know the names of these men?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. What were their names?
25 A. The one fishing was called Tuka Bogdanovic. He was a neighbour
1 of mine. And the man watching, his name was Kasim Fehric.
2 Q. What happened after you and Almir arrived by the bank of the
4 A. Two more men turned up who were armed, and they walked up to us.
5 Q. Did you immediately recognise these two men?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Who were these two men?
8 A. Budimir Kovacevic, who was the husband of my schoolmaster in
9 elementary school, Marija Kovacevic. The other one was Milan Lukic.
10 Q. What was Milan Lukic wearing on the 12th of June, 1992?
11 A. He was wearing military uniform, that same sniper rifle, but this
12 was the first time I saw him wear a cap with a cockade on it.
13 Q. When Milan Lukic and this other man arrived, what happened?
14 A. This man named Budimir told Milan, "This is the guy, Kasim
16 Q. How far were you and Almir from Milan Lukic when this initial
17 conversation occurred?
18 A. Two to three metres.
19 Q. What did Milan Lukic do after he was told of Kasim Fehric?
20 A. He asked him, "Are you Kasim Fehric?"
21 Q. How did Milan Lukic and this other man approach Kasim Fehric?
22 A. Violently.
23 Q. What do you mean by that description?
24 A. Well, they made threats to him immediately and said that he would
25 have to come with them.
1 Q. How far were you from Kasim Fehric?
2 A. The same as before, about two or three metres.
3 Q. How did Kasim Fehric respond to Milan Lukic?
4 A. He said his name was Kasim Fehric, and then he went on to say
5 that he was on his way to hospital to get some shots.
6 Q. Did Milan Lukic say anything back to Kasim Fehric?
7 A. Yes. He said he needn't worry, that he'd be providing all the
8 shots he needed.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: How old was Kasim Fehric?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] About 55.
11 MR. WEBER:
12 Q. After Milan Lukic made that comment to Kasim Fehric, what
14 A. He and this man named Budimir took him along down the Lipa Street
15 towards Dvadesetdrugog Decembra Street.
16 Q. What did you and Almir do as Milan Lukic and Budimir took away
17 Kasim Fehric?
18 A. We followed them up to the midpoint of Dvadesetdrugog Decembra
20 Q. Approximately how far behind were you and Almir from Milan Lukic,
21 Budimir, and Kasim Fehric?
22 A. No more than ten metres.
23 Q. Were you able to see Milan Lukic and Kasim Fehric after they
24 reached the 22nd of December Street?
25 A. Yes, from the back.
1 Q. How far were you from them at that time?
2 A. About seven or eight metres.
3 Q. What did you see happen?
4 A. Milan Lukic took Kasim's cap off and gave him his own to wear,
5 telling him that this one looked much nicer on him.
6 Q. What kind of hat was Kasim Fehric wearing?
7 A. Something like a beret.
8 Q. Was Kasim Fehric dressed in civilian or military attire?
9 A. Civilian.
10 Q. What kind of hat did Milan Lukic put on Kasim Fehric?
11 A. It was red with a cockade, some sort of a red beret.
12 Q. After Milan Lukic put this hat on Kasim Fehric, what did you see
14 A. He took him down the entire street. We only followed them
15 halfway, and they walked all the way down to the bottom of the street,
16 but we didn't follow.
17 Q. Did you ever see Kasim Fehric again?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Approximately how much time was it between when Milan Lukic first
20 walked up to where you and Almir were at until when you lost sight of him
21 with Kasim Fehric?
22 A. Perhaps about ten minutes.
23 Q. During that entire ten minutes, were you able to see Milan Lukic?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. When was the next day that you saw Milan Lukic in Visegrad?
1 A. The 14th of June, 1992.
2 Q. In the early afternoon of the 14th of June, 1992, who were you
4 A. Three of my friends.
5 Q. Could you please tell us what the first names only of those
6 friends are?
7 A. Almir, Samir, Ajvaz, and me.
8 Q. Is this the -- I'm sorry.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic.
10 MR. CEPIC: I apologise. Could we have the last name of those
11 men in the private session? Maybe it would be useful for some other
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Private session.
14 MR. CEPIC: Thank you very much.
15 [Private session]
21 [Open session]
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
23 MR. WEBER:
24 Q. Later in the afternoon on the 14th of June, 1992, were you,
25 Almir, Samir, and Ajvaz headed to a particular place?
1 A. Yes. We were off to the Lipa neighbourhood to -- towards Almir
2 and Samir's house.
3 Q. Whose house was this?
4 A. Taib's house.
5 Q. How did the four of you go to Taib's house?
6 A. We were on our way there to watch some videos since Taib had left
7 town already.
8 Q. Approximately what time did the four of you arrive in the area of
9 Taib's house?
10 A. It was half past 3.00 in the afternoon.
11 Q. What occurred as you approached Taib's house?
12 A. Almir was the only one who managed to get into the house because
13 he was the only one who had a set of keys to the house. The three of us
14 were stopped by a car in the middle of the street, and we didn't have
15 time to go into the house.
16 Q. Was Almir walking in front of or behind you, Samir, and Ajvaz?
17 A. In front.
18 Q. How far in front of you was Almir?
19 A. Five to six metres.
20 Q. How did Almir get into Taib's house?
21 A. I unlocked the door. He had a key, and later he told me that.
22 He couldn't even lock the door on the way out because the car suddenly
23 turned up. Fortunately, the men in the car did not see him.
24 Q. Did you hear anything as you were walking across the street
25 towards Taib's house when Almir went into the house?
1 A. I just heard a voice. I didn't actually hear the car stop. I
2 just heard a voice.
3 Q. Did you recognise that voice?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Whose voice was it?
6 A. The same man who was there when we were supposed to go to
8 Q. What is the name of that man?
9 A. Milan
10 Q. After you heard Milan Lukic's voice, did you turn and face the
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's very leading. Just ask him what he did.
13 MR. WEBER: I apologise, Your Honour. I'd be happy to rephrase.
14 Q. What did you do when you heard Milan Lukic's voice?
15 A. I turned back.
16 Q. When you turned back, where was the car in relation to you?
17 A. Some seven or eight metres away from me.
18 Q. Were you facing the car, or was it behind you?
19 A. Behind us.
20 Q. Just -- at some point in time, did you turn and face the car?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. When was that?
23 A. I heard the voice.
24 Q. Could you please describe the car that you saw.
25 A. It was dark red. It was a Volkswagen Passat.
1 Q. How many men were inside of the Volkswagen Passat?
2 A. Four.
3 Q. Who was in the passenger's -- or who was in the front passenger's
5 A. The same two men who were there when we were supposed to go to
7 Q. Who is behind the driver's seat of the car?
8 A. Two young men in camouflage. I didn't know them.
9 Q. I'd just like to be clear here. Where were these two young men
10 in camouflage sitting?
11 A. In the back seat.
12 Q. Was there anyone sitting in the driver's seat of the car?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Who was sitting in the driver's seat?
15 A. Milan
16 Q. Who was sitting in the front passenger's seat? Could you
17 describe him?
18 A. Yes. That was the same man who had come with Milan when we were
19 supposed to go to Macedonia
20 Q. What did you, Samir, and Ajvaz do after Milan Lukic called out
21 from the red Passat?
22 A. We turned around and started walking towards the car.
23 Q. What side of the car did you walk to?
24 A. The driver's side.
25 Q. What happened when you reached the driver's side of the car?
1 A. Milan Lukic asked us if we knew the man who ran a video rental
2 nearby in the settlement called Lipa and whether we knew where he was at
3 that moment.
4 Q. What happened after Milan Lukic asked you that?
5 A. We told him we didn't know.
6 Q. How did he respond?
7 A. He asked for our names.
8 Q. Did you then provide him your names?
9 A. Yes, we did.
10 Q. What happened after that?
11 A. He told us to get in the back of the car.
12 Q. Did you then get in the back of the car with Samir and Ajvaz?
13 A. Yes, we did.
14 Q. Could you please describe how the three of you got in the car.
15 A. We got in the back on the driver's side. The first to get in was
16 Samir, then -- the two young Serb soldiers were sitting next to the
17 window. Samir got in next to them, then I got -- sat in the middle, and
18 then Ajvaz.
19 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: One of the Serb
20 soldiers was in the car next to the window. Then Samir got in first. I
21 got in after him, then Ajvaz, and the other young Serb soldier was still
22 standing outside.
23 MR. WEBER:
24 Q. When you got into the car and were sitting in the middle. How
25 far were you from Milan Lukic in the driver's seat?
1 A. 10, 15 centimetres from one head to another.
2 Q. Could you see if Milan Lukic had anything with him in the
3 driver's seat of the car at that time?
4 A. Next to him on his right, he had a sniper rifle.
5 Q. Could you see the end of the sniper rifle?
6 A. Yes, as I was sitting in the very middle of the back seat. So
7 there is a gap between the two front seat, and since we were so crowded
8 in the back I was almost pushed forward between the two front seats.
9 Q. How far was the end of the sniper rifle from your face?
10 A. The butt was on the floor, and the end of the sniper rifle was no
11 more than five centimetres from me.
12 Q. Could you describe the end of the sniper rifle?
13 A. It had something black screwed onto it on top. At that time, I
14 didn't know what it was.
15 Q. What happened after the three of you got into the car with Milan
16 Lukic and the other three soldiers?
17 A. He drove out along the 22nd December Street.
18 Q. After he drove along the 22nd of December Street, where did he
20 A. We turned left towards the very centre of town, but before
21 turning we encountered in the street the same Serb man who had been
22 fishing that time when we were watching when Kasim Fehric was there.
23 Q. Was anything said in the car when you were passing this Serb man,
24 and what was said?
25 A. Yes. Milan Lukic said to his mate in the front seat something
1 like, "I almost killed that man cause I didn't know he was a Serb."
2 Q. What happened after you passed that Serb man?
3 A. We continued along the 22nd December Street, and we turned left
4 by the supermarket towards the centre of the town.
5 Q. What occurred after you reached the centre of the town?
6 A. Milan Lukic did not drive through the centre himself. Instead,
7 he went around another settlement towards the old bridge in Visegrad.
8 Q. Could you please describe what happened as you approached the old
10 A. In the meantime, as we were approaching Milan asked us if we
11 could swim, and that's when we got near the old bridge, and there were a
12 lot of people there.
13 Q. At some point in time did the red Passat stop on the old bridge?
14 A. Yes, briefly, in the very middle of the bridge.
15 Q. What was said in the car when it stopped on the old bridge?
16 A. That man who sat next to Milan
17 to drive to the new bridge.
18 Q. Where did the car then go?
19 A. We crossed the old bridge, turned right, and drove along the
21 by Milan
22 Q. What happened when you reached the new bridge?
23 A. We stopped almost in the middle of the bridge.
24 Q. After the red Passat stopped, what occurred?
25 A. I'll quote Milan Lukic. "We're out of petrol. We have to take
1 the Drina River
2 Q. Did Milan Lukic say anything after that to anyone else in the
4 A. He turned to the two young Serb soldiers who were sitting in the
5 back with us, and he told them, I'll quote again: "The faint-hearted
6 should stay in the car."
7 Q. After Milan Lukic made those comments, what happened?
8 A. The three of us got out of the car and so did Milan Lukic and the
9 passenger in the front, whereas the young Serb soldiers remained sitting
10 in the back.
11 Q. Did anyone approach Milan Lukic and this other soldier and the
12 three of you after you got out?
13 A. A man who was on the left bank by the bridge in some sort of
14 guards' booth. A Serb soldier came out of that booth and told Milan
15 "What on earth are you doing? Don't you see these are children?"
16 Q. What did Milan
17 A. Milan
18 pointed their guns at that man, and he had to withdraw.
19 Q. After this man withdrew, what happened?
20 A. Milan
21 to go on doing his job.
22 Q. Did this man eventually leave?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. What happened after the man left?
25 A. Milan
1 Q. How far were you from Milan Lukic at this time?
2 A. More than two metres.
3 Q. Could you please tell us who was standing on your left and right.
4 A. Samir was to my right, Ajvaz was to my left.
5 Q. What happened at that time?
6 A. Milan
7 Q. What happened after he asked for gold or money?
8 A. When he saw we had nothing, he told me since I was the tallest
9 amongst the three of us, he told me to go over the railing.
10 Q. What did you do when Milan Lukic said this to you?
11 A. I had lost all my faculties. I couldn't do anything.
12 Q. What did Milan Lukic do next?
13 A. He told me very loudly to go over the side of the bridge.
14 Q. How did you respond?
15 A. I stood frozen.
16 Q. What happened after that?
17 A. He walked by me and grabbed Samir, who had a tracksuit on. He
18 grabbed the top of his tracksuit. His rifle was on his shoulder, so he
19 grabbed Samir and threw him over the side of the bridge. Samir tried to
20 grab the side of the bridge, but it had been raining in Visegrad before
21 the 14th. The railing was made of iron. It was slippery, so he slipped
22 and fell into the water.
23 Q. Did you see Samir hit the water?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Did you see if he was able to come to the surface?
1 A. Yes, because I was leaning against the railing.
2 Q. How far were you from Milan Lukic at this time?
3 A. One metre.
4 Q. Was Milan Lukic to your left or right?
5 A. He was right in front of me, right in front of me and this boy
6 Ajvaz from Foca.
7 Q. What did Milan Lukic do after Samir was thrown into the water?
8 A. He took the sniper rifle off his shoulder. He -- he took his
9 rifle into his hands, stabilising it against the railing, and he hit
10 Samir with one bullet.
11 Q. Did you see him fire the sniper rifle?
12 A. Yes, because he was right next to me, not even half a metre away
13 from me when he approach the railing.
14 Q. What did you see come from the end of the gun when it was fired?
15 A. I felt something like the smell of gunpowder, but it was not very
16 loud when he fired the shot. Even we who were standing right next to him
17 couldn't hear the normal sound of a -- of a gunfire shot.
18 Q. How many times did he shoot at Samir?
19 A. Once.
20 Q. Did you then look towards the Drina where Samir was at?
21 A. Yes. We looked into the water, all of us.
22 Q. What did you see?
23 A. I saw Samir for two or three seconds, and then he drowned. Only
24 in the spot where he had been a second ago I saw a circle of blood.
25 Q. Was Samir killed?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What happened after Samir was killed by Milan Lukic?
3 A. Then this little boy from Foca started crying and begging Milan
4 to spare him. He started taking out some small coins from his pocket,
5 and I remember there was one banknote of small denomination fell into a
6 puddle as it fell from his hands. Milan
8 Q. What happened after that?
9 A. At that moment, Milan
10 anything to him. And the same second he said that, he did the same thing
11 as he had done earlier to Samir. This little boy was even lighter than
12 Samir, and he was just thrown over the railing into the river. But
13 before throwing him, as this little boy was proffering the money he had,
14 he was also saying he couldn't swim.
15 Q. What happened after this little boy was thrown over the railing
16 by Milan
17 A. Milan
18 open, wide open, and he said something to the man who had gotten out with
19 him, that Serb. He said something like, "The little boy can't swim and
20 he'll drown." And then the Serb in the front seat looked at the Drina
21 River. I was leaning on the railing, and as that man looked I also
22 looked, and I saw this little boy from Foca surfacing and struggling with
23 the current. The water was very high and rather wild. The boy was
24 struggling to stay on the surface, and then the man who had gotten out of
25 the car with Milan
1 little boy from Foca was lying when he said he couldn't swim, and he
2 fired something like 10 to 15 rounds at the boy.
3 Q. When this other man fired his gun, how loud was it in comparison
4 to the rifle that Milan Lukic fired?
5 A. Much louder.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Can he say whether any of the shot fired at the
7 little boy hit him?
8 MR. WEBER:
9 Q. VG-89, as Judge Robinson just asked you, do you know whether or
10 not any of these shots that were fired by this other man who was with
11 Milan Lukic hit the boy from Foca?
12 A. Yes, because both of us were looking into the water, and the
13 little boy from Foca disappeared. I don't know exactly how many bullets
14 hit him, but I know he was hit.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Weber, how much longer will you be? We're
16 past the time for the break.
17 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, if you'd like, this is -- I can break at
18 this time.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
20 MR. WEBER: And then there's one topic area that I have to go
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We'll take the break now.
23 --- Recess taken at 10.12 a.m.
24 --- On resuming at 10.37 a.m.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Proceed, Mr. Weber.
1 MR. WEBER:
2 Q. VG-89, we left off discussing the shooting of the boy from Foca.
3 At some point in time, did Milan Lukic and this other man return you to
4 the Volkswagen Passat?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. What happened when you got back into the Volkswagen Passat?
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: No. Before that, I'd like to find out how was
8 the decision, if any, made for him to -- to go to the Passat instead of
9 being thrown over the river. Was there any conversation relating to
11 MR. WEBER:
12 Q. VG-89, could you please describe the events after the other
13 soldier shot at the boy from Foca to when you got to the Volkswagen
15 A. As I said earlier, all the four doors of that Volkswagen Passat
16 were wide open all that time. Later, after the little boy from Foca was
17 killed, Milan Lukic grabbed my shirt behind my neck, and at that moment I
18 thought he was going to throw me into the river as he had done with the
19 two boys before me. He literally shoved me into the back seat of the
20 Passat. To this day, I don't know why. There was no conversation
21 between me and him. There was no conversation at all.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.
23 MR. WEBER:
24 Q. What happened once you were back in the Volkswagen Passat?
25 A. Everyone got back into the car where they had sat earlier. Milan
1 took the driver's seat. The other man sat in front next to him. I was
2 again in the back seat. Milan
3 across the bridge, and at that moment he turned on the music in the car
4 really loud.
5 Q. Where did Milan Lukic take you then?
6 A. We turned towards the Mezalin. He took me to the MUP building in
8 Q. Approximately what time did you arrive at the MUP building?
9 A. Before 5.00 p.m.
10 Q. I'd like to talk to you about your stay at the MUP building in
11 Visegrad. For approximately how many days after you arrived on the 14th
12 of June, 1992, were you at the MUP building?
13 A. Three days.
14 Q. When Milan Lukic and the other Serb soldiers brought you to the
15 MUP building, could you please describe what happened?
16 A. Milan
17 building, which is right to the left as you climb the stairs, and there
18 was a policeman sitting there, a policeman nicknamed Razonoda. This
19 Razonoda asked me who I was. He took a piece of paper to write my name
20 down, and he was about to ask me who was with me, and then Milan Lukic
21 said it didn't matter, like, it doesn't matter who had been with me.
22 Those persons were not important. And after that, Milan Lukic ordered
23 that policeman to keep me there in gaol and that no one, really no one,
24 was allowed to let me out without his permission. And after that, Milan
25 Lukic left, and that policeman led me to an empty room on the same floor
1 where the reception was.
2 Q. Did you see Milan Lukic at all later at the police station after
3 he left you?
4 A. Not that day. Not on the 14th of June.
5 Q. Approximately what time was it that Milan Lukic left the police
7 A. We stayed for about five minutes in the police station so that
8 Milan Lukic left the station around 5.00.
9 Q. Over the course of the next three days, did you see Milan Lukic
11 A. Every day for the next few days.
12 Q. You said that you did not see Milan Lukic again on the 14th of
13 June, 1992. What was the next day that you saw him?
14 A. The 15th of June, 1992.
15 Q. Where were you kept the evening of the 14th of June through to
16 the 15th of June?
17 A. In that empty room to which you get as you go down the hall from
18 the reception desk on the right. There were bars on the door. It was
19 not a regular door.
20 Q. Were there any windows to this room?
21 A. Yes, one small window overlooking the street, the bridge, and the
22 Borac department store.
23 Q. Were you able to tell whether it was day or night based on the
24 fact that there was a window to your cell?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. When you saw Milan Lukic on the 15th of June, 1992, was it day or
3 A. It was in the morning.
4 Q. What happened when you saw Milan Lukic on the 15th of June, 1992
5 A. Between that night on the 14th and the morning of the 15th, more
6 Muslims were brought to that room, and Milan demanded that they stand up
7 and sing Chetnik songs.
8 Q. Did Milan Lukic enter the cell?
9 A. No. He was standing in the door.
10 Q. Where were you inside of the cell when Milan Lukic asked you to
11 sing these songs?
12 A. I was in the corner behind those bars, in a small corner where he
13 could not see me.
14 Q. What happened after Milan Lukic requested that the songs were to
15 be sung?
16 A. He recognised one of the men there. The man was about 55. Milan
17 addressed him by name saying, "Nijaz, where is your son?" That son was a
18 schoolmate of mine.
19 Q. How did this man respond?
20 A. He said his son had left for Austria, to live there. And then
22 man started thanking him or something, and then Milan said, "I won't kill
23 you. I'll slit your throat."
24 Q. What happened after that conversation?
25 A. Someone called out Milan
1 he was.
2 Q. Did you see Milan Lukic again on the 15th of June, 1992
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. When did you next see him?
5 A. Late afternoon.
6 Q. Was he with anyone when you saw him the next time?
7 A. With the same man who had taken us to the bridge, who sat in
8 front of him.
9 Q. Was this the man who shot at the boy from Foca?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You've described him earlier, but could you just please make
12 clear his physical description.
13 A. Who do you mean?
14 Q. This man who shot at the boy from Foca who was with Milan Lukic
15 on the 15th of June, 1992.
16 A. Rather short, not over 170 centimetres tall, wearing camouflage,
17 an automatic rifle, black hair and black moustache; age, about 35.
18 Q. What happened when Milan Lukic and this other man came to your
19 cell in the late afternoon?
20 A. Again, he appeared at the door. There's one thing that I forgot
21 to say earlier on. All those who were locked up inside had to give away
22 any money that they had on them, their watches or whatever, and place it
23 all in the middle of the room. Milan
24 the two young men that they'd taken off the bus. That's what they told
25 me in prison because they had been on their way from Serbia to Konjic.
1 They were heading home because they had a job in Serbia. He said, "Is
2 there a young man anywhere around in this prison?" And they said, "Yes,
3 there is one." I was there in the corner, and he told me to stay.
4 I walked up to the door. He was standing just outside the cell
5 and I was still inside. He offered me his hand. He shook hands with me
6 and said that he -- he wanted to tell me something about the money on
7 that heap in the middle of the room. He said, Do you know Risto Perisic,
8 a teacher from Visegrad? And I said, Yes, I know him, and he said, When
9 you see him pass by, give him all this money and tell him it's from Milan
10 Lukic. He also said that he wouldn't allow anyone to lay a finger on me
11 in this prison. He told everyone not to as much as touch me, and then he
13 Q. When did this interaction between you and Milan Lukic occur, on
14 the 14th of June or on the 15th of June?
15 A. 15th of June. That was the second time he came.
16 Q. When you say the second time he came, was this the time that you
17 interacted with him in the morning or afternoon?
18 A. Late afternoon.
19 Q. Did you ever observe Milan Lukic interact with Risto Perisic?
20 A. Once.
21 Q. When was that?
22 A. The 16th of June. They were passing through that hallway to some
23 offices or whatever they had there on that floor. I saw the two of them
24 talk and receding down that hallway. However, as for the money that he
25 had told me to give to Risto, well, I didn't.
1 Q. This hallway that you observed them in, was this the hallway that
2 was in front of your cell?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Could you tell the tone of voice that they were speaking to each
5 other in?
6 A. It was a friendly tone.
7 Q. Was this different than the tone that Milan Lukic had with all
8 the other individuals that you observed over the three days at the police
10 A. It was quite different from the conversation that Milan
11 with the policeman Razonoda. He had literally ordered that policeman
12 what to do.
13 Q. I'd like to take you back to the 15th of June, 1992. Did
14 anything else occur when you saw Milan Lukic in the late afternoon than
15 what you've already described?
16 A. There was mistreatment at the prison, but I didn't see Milan
17 Lukic there. I don't think he was there when they were actually beating
18 those men.
19 Q. Who beat those men?
20 A. Local Serbs who happened to be on at the time.
21 Q. Could you tell if these local Serbs were policemen or soldiers?
22 A. Some were policemen, and some had just joined the paramilitary
23 units as soon as the war began.
24 Q. Were any of these people the people that you observed with Milan
25 Lukic on any prior dates?
1 A. No.
2 Q. When did these beatings occur?
3 A. On the 14th, the evening of the 14th. That's when it began, and
4 it went on until I left prison early in the morning on the 17th.
5 Q. I'd like to take you to the 16th of June, 1992. You mentioned
6 that you saw Milan Lukic again on that day. What time of day did you see
8 A. That afternoon. There was an interview first. They had me for
9 an interview, and they wanted some Muslim names from me who were
10 apparently hiding, and they placed a knife in my throat threatening to
11 slit my throat unless I told them. But Milan Lukic wasn't in the room.
12 It was after I'd returned that Milan Lukic was back.
13 Q. Who were these individuals that held a knife up to your throat?
14 A. Soldiers of the JNA wearing JNA uniforms, and those were
15 different from the uniforms that Milan Lukic and his men were wearing.
16 These were younger ones; they aged 18 or 19. He placed the military
17 knife under my throat, and he said that we Muslims used to be Serbs, but
18 the Turks converted us 500 years before. He said they'd have all the
19 Muslims killed, and those they didn't kill would be reconverted to
20 orthodoxy. He asked me a question, but then I said nothing. But I spent
21 about 15 or 20 minutes there, and then they sent me back to my cell.
22 Q. How long after you returned to your cell did Milan Lukic appear?
23 A. Some one and a half hours later, perhaps two hours later. I
24 wasn't wearing a watch, and I couldn't really say.
25 Q. Was anyone else in your cell when Milan Lukic arrived?
1 A. Yes. A total of eight persons. Seven men, one lady.
2 Q. Were all the other people in your cell Muslims also?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. What happened when Milan Lukic came to your cell on the 16th of
5 June, 1992
6 A. Again, he wanted everyone to sing Chetnik songs. Again, he
7 called me to walk up to the door, and he offered his hand for me to
8 shake, and I saw him wear a large golden ring. I could actually feel the
9 ring as I was shaking his hand. He didn't mistreat me or anything. He
10 mistreated the other people there but not me, not at this moment.
11 Q. How did Milan Lukic mistreat the other people that were with you
12 on the 16th?
13 A. He was telling them that he would have them all killed, their
14 throats slit. He was screaming at this policeman to get him the key so
15 he could get into the room and kill everyone and slit everyone's throats,
16 kill all those people there. Some had been subjected to beatings
17 already. The night between the 14th and the 15th, there had been a lot
18 of beating going on in that prison, but I wasn't allowed to watch what
19 was going on. For those two nights, they were beating those Muslim men,
20 and while they were doing that they took me to another room so that I
21 couldn't see for myself. I couldn't see it with my own eyes. I was just
22 given some pieces of cloth to mop up the floors and the walls when I
23 returned to the cell. There was blood all over the place and body parts
24 all over the floor and the walls. There was no room there to even sit
25 down because there was blood and body parts all over the place.
1 Q. Did you -- did they make you clean up the cell?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You mentioned that Milan Lukic was wearing a large gold ring on
4 the 16th of June. Was this the first occasion that you observed him with
5 this gold ring?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. After the 16th of June, did you see Milan Lukic at all at the
8 police station?
9 A. The evening of the 16th, late that evening Milan Lukic returned
10 along with this man who was always with him, the man who had killed the
11 young man from Foca at the bridge. Milan didn't go into the cell;
12 rather, the other Serb did.
13 There was a low table made of wood and a small bench next to that
14 table. He told me to sit down on that bench, this Serb. Once I did, he
15 starred telling me that the Muslims were killing Serbs in Gorazde and
16 that the Muslims were killing Serb children. And he said something about
17 the dam in Visegrad, some kilometres from the town, how they kept finding
18 bodies of dead Serb children there, whose throats had been slit, from
19 Gorazde. And he said there would be a quid pro quo thing and that for
20 every Serb child that was killed they would kill a Muslim, and this, he
21 said, was why they were killing all the Muslims, including the children.
22 I didn't answer back. He realised that, so he didn't stay for
23 too long. He was there for maybe 15 or 20 minutes, and then he left.
24 This was late at night, the 16th of June. At daybreak on the
25 17th, I was released from Visegrad prison, unbeknownst to Milan
1 Q. Who released you?
2 A. Mirko Lakic.
3 Q. Who is Mirko Lakic?
4 A. He was my next-door neighbour. Before the war, he worked as a
5 butcher in Visegrad. This was a well-regarded Serb family from Visegrad.
6 Q. Did you proceed to leave with your mother on the 17th of June,
7 1992, from Visegrad?
8 A. Yes. I was scared to death. I knew that if I stayed, that would
9 be the end of me as soon as they got their hands on me again, so we had
10 no choice but to leave. While leaving Visegrad on that bus, again, Milan
11 got onto the bus. This was one of the most critical moments for me, one
12 of the most dangerous moments. I was sitting at the rear of the bus, in
13 the corner, and Milan Lukic was looking for some people named Sabanovic.
14 I remember that clearly. There was a rather young girl three rows away
15 from me. She couldn't have been over 20 years of age at the time. She
16 had a kerchief that she was wearing on her head, and there were some
17 elderly people seated along the aisle in the middle of the bus, some
18 people who were unable to move or use the seats. The bus was
19 chock-a-block with people. Milan
20 the bus. He remained at the door. And then he told the girl to remove
21 the kerchief because he thought that she was a young man in disguise or
22 something. I thought he would walk all the way down the aisle, so I slid
23 off the seat in order to hide behind the seat right in front of me, and I
24 hid behind a bag, but then fortunately Milan Lukic got off the bus and
25 was gone.
1 Q. During your three days at the Visegrad police station, did you
2 ever observe anyone give Milan Lukic an order?
3 A. No, never.
4 Q. After you left Visegrad on the 17th of June, 1992, have you ever
5 lived in that municipality again?
6 A. Never.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: What about the converse of that? Did he ever
8 observe Milan Lukic give an order to anybody at the police station?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. And what are the circumstances in which
11 that order was given? To whom was it given and when, and what was the
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The order was given. Milan
14 was telling this man named Razonoda, Lelek , that the police were no
15 good, were not effective in a way, that they weren't getting anything
16 done and that he had to do the whole job himself. He was shouting,
17 yelling at him.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: And who was Razonoda?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was a local policeman from
20 before the war. I can't remember his real name, but that's what
21 everybody called him in Visegrad. He was very tall, over two metres
22 probably. He worked as a policeman before the war, and he worked at the
23 station where they held me.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Was there any other occasion on which you heard
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Whenever he needed a set of
2 keys or something, he would never ask nicely. He would order them to
3 bring a set of keys so he that could get into a cell or something like
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: And were these orders given to policemen?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Weber.
8 MR. WEBER:
9 Q. VG-89, I'd like you to take a look around the courtroom here
10 today. Aside from myself and Mr. Groome and Mr. Zec, I was wondering, is
11 there anyone that you recognize in the courtroom here today?
12 A. Yes. I recognize the second man on the left.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: We have to wait for the transcript to be
14 restarted. There's a technical problem.
15 We can resume now.
16 MR. WEBER:
17 Q. VG-89, could you please look around the courtroom and let the
18 Chamber know if you recognise anyone here today besides myself,
19 Mr. Groome, and Mr. Zec?
20 A. Yes. The second person from left to right, to the left, wearing
21 what I think is a pink shirt and a black jacket. That's Milan Lukic.
22 Q. What row is this person sitting in?
23 A. Third row.
24 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, may the record reflect the
25 identification of the accused Milan Lukic.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
2 MR. ALARID: Standing objection, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Noted.
4 MR. WEBER:
5 Q. Is the accused that you identified here in court today, Milan
6 Lukic, the same individual that you saw on the 21st of May, 1992; early
7 June 1992 during your bus convoy; the 12th of June, 1992; and the 14th
8 through the 17th of June, 1992?
9 MR. ALARID: And I would object to the leading nature of the
10 questioning and also misrepresentation of the evidence as the 21st of
11 May. He was 150 metres away.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We note the objection.
13 Please answer the question.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is the person.
15 MR. WEBER: No further questions.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Weber.
17 Mr. Alarid.
18 MR. ALARID: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Cross-examination by Mr. Alarid:
20 Q. VG-89, my name is Jason Alarid, and I represent Milan Lukic
21 [Realtime transcript read in error, "Mr. Lukic"]. Can I ask you a few
22 questions about your testimony today and your statements that you've
23 already given in this case?
24 A. Yes, by all means.
25 Q. Now, I would like to start talking with -- about your time at the
1 police station, the MUP building. Just by what you were able to observe
2 through the cell doors, of course on your arrival and other things, how
3 many different police officers do you think you saw over the course of
4 your three days?
5 A. Perhaps about five, six, or seven different ones, those that I
6 was in touch with.
7 Q. And when you say police officers, how would you separate someone
8 as a police officer from being a soldier?
9 A. Policemen had that blue police uniform while the rest were
10 wearing camouflage. There were many local police officers there, such as
11 Lelek, Tomic, Dragan and others. I knew them because they worked for the
12 MUP, and I lived two streets away from there, used to live.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic.
14 MR. CEPIC: I apologise, Your Honour, but could my learned friend
15 Mr. Alarid precise which client he represent because on page 47, line 8,
16 is not clarified, so just the full name.
17 MR. ALARID:
18 Q. You heard that I represent Milan Lukic, did you not?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now, when you say that you lived a couple blocks from the MUP
21 building, you had seen certain police officers for quite some time,
22 including Tomic?
23 A. That's right. Tomic interrogated me at the MUP building. That
24 was before the war and also before I ended up there. Yes, I used to see
1 Q. Well, and that's what I recall from one of your statements is
2 that soon after you were brought from the bridge to the police station
3 you spoke briefly with Dragan Tomic, the commander.
4 A. 17.45 in the afternoon, the 14th of June, on the first floor in
5 Dragan Tomic's office.
6 Q. And when -- isn't it true that you knew that you were going to be
7 interrogated by Dragan Tomic before 17.45?
8 A. No.
9 Q. What time did you know that you were going to be interrogated by
10 the chief of police?
11 A. When one of the policemen came, opened the door, and led me away,
12 he told me we were going upstairs to the office of Dragan Tomic, chief of
13 police. I was being taken there to be interviewed.
14 Q. And Mr. Lakic who released you, what uniform was he wearing?
15 A. Camouflage army uniform. That's what he was wearing when he came
16 to the prison that morning.
17 Q. And what about Chief Tomic?
18 A. He was in civilian clothes, a suit.
19 Q. So if I understand you, during this time police officers wore the
20 regular blue uniform but sometimes also changed into camouflage, and then
21 with regards to the chief he was wearing civilian clothes.
22 MR. WEBER: Objection, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Weber.
24 MR. WEBER: That's a compound question.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: I will allow it. Answer the question.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know who changed into what,
2 but I know about the policemen I had known from before the war, that I
3 used to see them wearing blue uniforms. During my stay in gaol, they
4 were wearing blue police uniforms, and Dragan Tomic was the only one in
5 and suit. I didn't know the others who visited. All I know is they wore
6 camouflage uniforms.
7 MR. ALARID:
8 Q. Well, I guess I'd like to focus on Mr. Lakic, only because you
9 saw him in a camouflage, but you also knew him as a police officer.
10 A. I did not know him as a police officer. As far as I remember, he
11 was not a police officer before the war.
12 Q. But with him being at the MUP building during that time, could
13 you assume that he was a police officer during the war?
14 A. In that MUP building I saw him only once, in the morning of the
15 17th. He was wearing a camouflage uniform. He hadn't been there.
16 Otherwise, I saw him just that once, and I know for sure he wasn't a
17 policeman before the war.
18 Q. Now, before your testimony today did you review both your 1995
19 statement as well as your 2001 statement?
20 A. Yes, very briefly.
21 Q. When you looked at your 1995 statement, did you notice that you
22 had used the name Dragan Lakic as the person that had released you as
23 opposed to Mirko Lakic?
24 A. Maybe I made a slip of the tongue or maybe the person who took
25 the statement made a mistake. Dragan Lakic is Mirko Lakic's son, but
1 he's not the one who released me. I was released by Mirko Lakic.
2 Q. Understood. I just didn't know what it was. Now, when you were
3 in the cell right before you were released, it appeared that Milan Lukic
4 did defer or take orders from Mr. Perisic. Would that be fair?
5 A. I wouldn't say that.
6 Q. What was your understanding -- well, in your statement of 2001,
7 you indicated that you knew who Perisic was and Dragan Tomic in advance
8 as being associates. How did you know them to be associates?
9 A. I knew Dragan Tomic because I lived close to the MUP, and I used
10 to see Perisic around town, but I didn't know him personally. All I knew
11 is that he was a teacher. I was just finishing my eighth year of primary
12 school, and I was supposed to go on to secondary school where he taught.
13 What kind of friends they were, I don't know. I used to see them
14 together at the MUP. When you see people together, I don't know what it
15 looks like to you, but it looked to me that they were friends or they had
16 some business together.
17 Q. And you know, and I do understand that you were a young boy at
18 this time and you may not have known a lot of the political situation as
19 the war started, but did you have any understanding even from talking to
20 your older relatives or friends that Mr. Perisic was the commander, even
21 a superior to Dragan Tomic during the war?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Did you find it funny, though, the money that was being collected
24 in the cell from you and your cell-mates was being ordered to be given to
25 Mr. Perisic?
1 A. I thought it was too little money for Lukic, for Milan Lukic.
2 That's why he wanted Perisic to have it. If there had been more money,
3 I'm sure he would have taken it himself.
4 Q. But is it a possibility that in fact Mr. Perisic was the one
5 entitled to it regardless by virtue of his being a superior?
6 A. I heard - not saw - I heard that Perisic took money from Muslims
7 who had the money, who could afford it, in exchange for taking them out
8 of the town.
9 Q. And what was your understanding of this payment that was made by
10 your countrymen to escape Visegrad?
11 A. Well, they usually asked wealthier people to pay so that their
12 lives be spared. I don't think Milan
13 was engaged in other things.
14 Q. And I guess my next question to you would be, then, if
15 Mr. Perisic is the one that has the authority to -- the authority to give
16 these passes to the wealthier Muslims, wouldn't that indicate that he's
17 in a position of authority?
18 A. Perisic was not the only one who could do that. Any Serb at the
19 MUP could take the money and get someone out of the town. It wasn't only
20 Risto Perisic. He was not the only person who was being obeyed. Milan
21 and Lakic and anybody else could do the same thing.
22 Q. Now, just backing up to the very end --
23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
24 MR. ALARID:
25 Q. When you escaped to Bosnian territory and you left the bus,
1 there's a mention in your 1995 statement that Stanko Pecikoza was in
2 camouflage and driving one of the buses and also fired at Muslims.
3 A. Pecikoza was the name, but he didn't drive a bus. He drove a
4 truck. He started shooting when the Muslims tried to save some people
5 because they knew that people -- Serbs from the -- Serbs were going to
6 take out some people from the first convoy as they had done before and
7 kill them.
8 Q. Now, when you were taken to the office of -- of Dragan Tomic,
9 would it be fair to say that he was in charge of the -- of the MUP? He
10 was clearly the commander-in-chief of the police there?
11 A. Yes, that's correct. That's how it looked to me, and that was
12 true, I think, because he was the only one in civilian clothes, and he
13 was the one who interrogated me.
14 Q. And would it be fair to say, although you saw such horrible
15 things during your stay there, it was Dragan Tomic that was the only one
16 that actually hurt you or hit you during your stay at the MUP?
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. Now, you indicated on your -- in your second statement that --
19 that you came to the police station on the 14th because -- you remember
20 this because of a soccer game that you were going to watch on TV that
21 night in the European Championship. Is that true?
22 A. I remember it by many things. The European Championship is just
23 one of the many things why I remember that. It's not only the European
24 Championship. That date was memorable to me even before Milan Lukic took
25 me to the bridge. It was memorable because my mother stopped working
1 that day. Among other things, she did not dare go to work any more.
2 Q. Isn't it true that the day -- that day was a Monday?
3 A. I don't remember exactly if it was Monday, but I know that my
4 mother was supposed to go to work but didn't because Serbs had already
5 started killing everyone indiscriminately. She didn't dare to go to
7 Q. Is it -- is it true that your -- or you tell me. Would your
8 mother normally work on a Sunday?
9 A. She worked almost every day.
10 Q. But in your statement of -- of 2001, you indicated that the --
11 one of the reasons that you remembered it was the 14th is because Germany
12 was going to play that evening. Is that true?
13 A. I couldn't tell you with any certainty that Germany was playing
14 that evening. In any case, we were rooting for Germany because when I
15 was giving those statements, I did not speak any English. Some people
16 interpreted, and I didn't understand what they were saying, but I was
17 rooting for Germany
18 Q. Well, the only reason I say this, I can only read what was in
19 English, and it appears that you were going to watch the Germany game on
20 television that evening, and that's the reason I'm asking you these
21 questions. But if I were to tell you that I looked on the schedule for
22 the European Championship, Germany
23 would that change your perception of what day the 14th or the 15th is?
24 A. No. No, it wouldn't. I remember very well that it was the 14th,
25 and we rooted for Germany
1 Whether they were playing that day or another day, I don't know.
2 MR. ALARID: Could the court usher -- assistant please bring up
3 what has been uploaded as 1D10-1679, being the English version, and
4 1D10-1690, which is the B/C/S version.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Weber.
6 MR. WEBER: If the Prosecution could just be informed; what
7 version of what document are we referring to?
8 MR. ALARID: It's the 2001 January statement by the witness to
9 the ICTY, and I would focus the attention on page 2 of the English
10 statement as well as the B/C/S statement, bottom paragraph.
11 Q. Now, sir, is that your signature at the bottom of the English,
12 understanding you don't read and write English, but is that your
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And I'd like you to read the bottom paragraph of this statement.
16 A. "Samir Dervisevic got killed later in June along with another
17 friend of mine from Foca whose last name I don't know who was living
18 temporarily with the Koric family in Visegrad. I witnessed two killings
19 at the new Drina Bridge
20 around 1600 hours. I remember this date because it was during the
21 European football championship in 1992, and that evening there was a
22 match with Germany
23 misinterpreted this. It was during the European Championship, and we did
24 root for Germany
25 leaving Visegrad for Visoko.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Weber.
2 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, during this answer there was a reference
3 to Saturday, the 14th of June, 1992. I don't know if that was a mistake
4 in translation and reading from the document. I do notice that the
5 document may say something different. If we could please just clarify.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, may I just ask the interpreter what does
7 the B/C/S say?
8 THE INTERPRETER: The B/C/S says Saturday, 14 June.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Not the English.
10 MR. ALARID:
11 Q. Sir, was it Saturday, Sunday, or Monday? Sir, I'm sorry, did --
12 maybe you didn't hear me. Was it Saturday, Sunday, or Monday, because
13 there was something in the translation. Maybe you misread your
14 statement, but I will tell you your statement says Sunday the 14th,
15 remembering it because of the championship, but I'm simply going to ask
16 you: Was it Saturday, Sunday, or Monday when you were -- when this
18 A. As far as I remember, it was Saturday.
19 Q. Now, there was -- there was also someone else there, going
20 backwards from your release, that allowed you some food and water. His
21 name was Lalo. How did you know Lalo?
22 A. It's another misinterpretation. The name was Lelek. His name --
23 his full name was Zeljko Lelek.
24 Q. Was he another police officer?
25 A. As far as I know, he started working as a policeman just before
1 the war.
2 Q. Now, in your testimony today you mentioned that this person that
3 you knew as Milan Lukic shook your hand on two occasions, the second one
4 wearing a gold ring. Do you realise that at no time before did you
5 mention two times in which Milan Lukic shook your hand, and you never
6 mentioned a golden ring?
7 A. That golden ring I noticed that second time when he shook my
8 hand. He may have had it before without me noticing, but the second time
9 I noticed it, all right. Huge ring, yellow gold.
10 Q. Do you agree in having reviewed your statements that you only
11 mentioned a single time in which Milan Lukic shook your hand and then
12 told you that you were not to be harmed?
13 A. At the time when I was giving my first statement in 1995, in my
14 country the war was still raging, and the people who wanted me to make
15 that statement, I had never known them before, nor did anyone from my
16 family, so I gave that statement to people I didn't know during the war
17 under huge pressure and -- of fear. I had no idea what could happen to
18 me if I gave that statement to people I didn't know, and I didn't know
19 who they were working for.
20 Q. Did they appear to be helpful, like they were police authorities
21 that wanted to find the perpetrators of the -- the crimes in, around
22 Visegrad that you might have witnessed?
23 A. Yes. It appeared to me that way, but I wasn't really sure where
24 I was going because the war was still going on.
25 Q. But you were safe in Muslim territory, and you were being
1 interviewed by Muslim police?
2 A. You are never safe from the Serb army and Serb paramilitaries.
3 They kept shelling Sarajevo
4 that interview. I risked my life, actually, to reach that place where
5 the interview was to be conducted.
6 Q. And might I ask you how -- how did you come into the radar? How
7 did -- how were you brought to their attention as a witness to the crimes
8 in Visegrad?
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. --
10 MR. WEBER: Objection. That calls for speculation as to what
11 those individuals thought.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, the second aspect of the question, yes,
13 but how did you come into the radar? Can you answer that?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those people that I didn't know
15 found me in Sarajevo
16 told anyone anything.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Alarid.
18 MR. ALARID: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Q. And would it be better to say that you had not told any
20 authorities about it, but I'm sure you had discussed it with family and
21 close friends of your family what you had gone through?
22 A. When a man kills two children in front of you, of course you keep
23 discussing it throughout your life with your family and your friends.
24 Q. Now, during your stay in that gaol cell, were there other cells
25 around you, or was that the only detention cell?
1 A. I didn't walk around, and I didn't go to other cells. I was in
2 that one cell throughout the time. I went sometimes to the reception
3 desk, and I went to Tomic's office upstairs. I don't know about the rest
4 of the layout.
5 Q. And is the reception desk on the ground floor, what I would call
6 the first floor, but I know many people call the second floor the first
7 floor. Was it on the ground floor, the reception area?
8 A. So when you go through the entrance door of the MUP building, you
9 walk up the steps, about ten steps, and on your right-hand side from the
10 staircase there is a reception desk.
11 Q. And in your statement, the gentlemen that you indicated held a
12 knife to your throat and threatened you, took you out of the cell and
13 threatened you. In your statement, you indicated it was four to five
14 police officers, but today you indicate that it was gentlemen wearing JNA
15 uniforms, and I'm just asking if you understood the men in JNA officers
16 to be police officers, or if they're different.
17 A. These men who took me were wearing olive-green/grey uniforms,
18 characteristic for the JNA, and they had knives and bayonets, and one of
19 them with the Serbian accent put a bayonet to my throat, and his accent
20 was from Serbia
21 said even the first time when I gave a statement. I don't know how it
22 was translated to you.
23 Q. Well, what I have in English is that this was a younger one, 20
24 years old, that held the knife to your throat.
25 A. Correct. I had never before seen policemen wearing green
1 camouflage uniforms and carrying bayonets, and that man was a young man,
2 20ish, wearing a green -- olive-green/grey uniform.
3 Q. Now, did the incident where you were threatened to cut your
4 throat, was that before or after --
5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
6 MR. ALARID: Excuse me.
7 Q. Now, was the incident where you were threatened to cut your
8 throat before or after the Milan Lukic associate came in and told you how
9 Muslims were killing Serbians in nearby villages?
10 A. Before.
11 Q. And so now you say that -- but if I were to tell you that in your
12 statement you indicated that the man that came in and spoke to you about
13 Muslims committing violence was actually at 2.00 in the morning on the
15 A. That's what I said to you. That man came late at night. It was
16 very dark. Whether it was 2.00 a.m.
17 have a watch.
18 Q. And in your statement, though, it indicates that the next morning
19 is when those four or five police officers who you now say were in JNA
20 threatened you and -- to cut your throat.
21 A. That same morning before this Milan Lukic came in the evening
22 with his Chetnik.
23 Q. In your statement, you don't mention that Milan Lukic accompanied
24 this associate on that single occasion. Is it your testimony today that
25 he was with him and you saw him?
1 MR. WEBER: Objection, Your Honour. If counsel just could please
2 reference which statement he's referring to. There's two.
3 MR. ALARID: The 2001 statement.
4 Q. I ask you again, that isn't it true that in your statement you
5 did not mention that Milan Lukic accompanied this associate on that
6 single occasion?
7 A. I heard Milan Lukic's voice. I didn't see him. He didn't come
8 to the detention unit that night. He didn't mistreat anyone, but I could
9 hear him in the hallway. The younger man who came along with him was the
10 one who entered the cell.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's not the point. What counsel is saying,
12 that in your statement, the 2001 statement, you didn't mention that Milan
13 Lukic accompanied this associate on that single occasion. The point he's
14 making, that you didn't mention it in your statement.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Milan Lukic was there that evening.
16 He just didn't actually go into the cell in which we were. He was out in
17 the hall where the cell was.
18 MR. ALARID:
19 Q. And before either of these occasions, isn't it true that there
20 was one moment where four -- five or six soldiers disguised with
21 stockings and masks covering their faces came into the cell and began
22 beating the other inmates, not you?
23 A. Every night they came and beat the other prisoners - the 14th,
24 the 15th, and the 16th - but not me. That's right.
25 Q. What were these masked men wearing as -- as uniforms or clothing?
1 A. I really didn't have a chance to look closely, but as far as I
2 could tell they were wearing camouflage, and for the most part they were
3 hitting people with their rifle butts. Again, I wasn't really in a
4 position to do anything else but just keep my head down and stare at the
5 wall. There were some situations in which Lelek took me outside the cell
6 while they were beating all the other people in there.
7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Microphone, please.
8 MR. ALARID:
9 Q. Is that more than one time that you were allowed to be removed
10 from the cell during these beatings?
11 A. I was once allowed to leave; they were spending the night, and
12 then another time when they gave them some food and allowed them to use
13 the facilities.
14 Q. Now, in your statement you indicated that your mother was aware
15 that you were under arrest and actually came to question why and visit
16 you during this time period. Is that true?
17 A. Yes, that's true. I saw my mother for about two or three
19 Q. And if I might ask you, was your father in Visegrad at this time,
20 or was he somewhere else?
21 A. He was elsewhere.
22 Q. And you indicated that your mother was outside the cell window,
23 but it's my understanding that the cell window is very high off the
24 ground, maybe three metres, and would be very difficult to look out.
25 A. No, not quite. Not three metres. It was lower than that, and
1 it's not like I really used that window to look outside very much, nor
2 was I allowed to.
3 Q. Now, when these policemen or soldiers would come in to beat
4 people, did you see anyone giving orders within those groups?
5 A. No, I didn't, nor was I in a position to look.
6 Q. How many people total --
7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
8 MR. ALARID:
9 Q. How many people were detained with you in that cell over those
10 three days, different people?
11 A. Eight at the very most. At one point there were eight. They
12 would always take someone out or bring someone new. Eight was the
13 maximum for as long as I was there. When I left, there were only two
14 persons remaining inside.
15 Q. And did this Razonoda ever participate in these beatings?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. It's my understanding that many Muslim cars and property were
18 seized during this time. Do you have knowledge of that?
19 A. By all means. Everything we had was taken from us, our lives
21 Q. And did you see a group of Muslim vehicles at the police station
22 when you were brought there, other Muslim vehicles as well?
23 A. No. I saw nothing. I was in no position to see anything. I'd
24 been brought back from facing a firing squad. It wasn't like I'd just
25 been back from a football game or a trip.
1 Q. Early on in your stay there, you saw other police officers beat a
2 man severely and then use a walkie-talkie to talk to other police
3 officers as they looked for the man's son. Isn't that true?
4 A. Two sons.
5 Q. Can you please describe what these -- this group of police
6 officers was wearing?
7 A. They weren't all wearing the same clothes, this group.
8 Q. Now, one of the things on the bridge that was unclear to me is
9 that when you arrived on the new bridge this Milan Lukic said, if you --
10 stay in the car, to the other two soldiers, if you have -- if you don't
11 have the stomach, but you didn't describe how three boys got out of the
12 vehicle with those two soldiers staying in the car. Did they get out and
13 get back in?
14 A. We got out of the car, the three of us, Samir on the right, and I
15 and the lad from Foca got out of the left-hand side of the car, the
16 driver's side. As for the question, Milan told those rather young Serb
17 soldiers as follows: "If your heart is faint, stay in the car." It
18 wasn't us that he told to stay in the car if we so wished.
19 Q. That's not what I meant. I meant that the soldiers in the back
20 did get out of the vehicle. Isn't that true?
21 A. Do you think you could have 70 persons leave the back seat of the
22 vehicle without anyone moving? There were seven of us there. Of course
23 someone had to move over for someone else to leave. What I'm telling you
24 is that they didn't leave the car. They stayed in the car when Milan
25 took us away and this guy that he was with. We couldn't just leave the
1 car by miracle without having them move over for us to be able to get
2 out, could we?
3 Q. Thank you. Now, going back to when you came to the understanding
4 of who Milan Lukic was. Isn't it true that you had heard stories about
5 Milan Lukic before you had ever had an understanding of who he was?
6 A. The first time I heard of him was when we were supposed to go to
8 heard his name for the first time.
9 Q. And so as you gave statements after the fact, you mentioned that
10 a Milan Lukic was both -- was at the funeral of Behija Zukic, but the
11 trip to Macedonia
12 A. Yes. I saw the person, but I didn't realise at the time that he
13 was Milan Lukic, just like I saw him when we were supposed to leave for
15 called him by name. I saw the man, but I didn't know his name. It
16 wasn't until later that I learned his name.
17 Q. And so at the Behija Zukic funeral, you were a hundred and fifty
18 metres away from the TAM
19 A. Roughly speaking, yes. I can't be more specific about the
20 distance, but that's the ballpark.
21 Q. Did you have binoculars?
22 A. No.
23 Q. And so isn't it true that the only reason that you believe that a
24 Milan Lukic was at the funeral is because you understood the TAM truck to
25 also have been owned by Behija Zukic?
1 A. No. I didn't know that. I did know that the Passat belonged to
2 Behija Zukic, and I only found out later about the other one.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: How did you come to believe or to know that
4 Milan Lukic was at the funeral?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw a man leave the driver's
6 seat. This was the man, 195 centimetres tall, wearing camouflage, black
7 hair, and right next to him that same person who had taken us to the
8 bridge, one rather short and the other rather tall. And then when we
9 were supposed to go to Macedonia
10 was the same person because I finally had a chance to see him close up,
11 and that was when I concluded that this is the same person that I had
12 seen before.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Okay. Thank you.
14 MR. ALARID: Could the court assistant please bring up what's
15 been uploaded as 1D10-1664, being the 1995 statement and the -- and, Your
16 Honour, this is -- the problem with this is this is one we did not get
17 the Bosnian translation for, and we had requested it, and that was I
18 think one of the things that might have been pending before the Court.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Weber?
20 MR. WEBER: It was my understanding that we tendered both
21 versions on the 4th of July, 2008. However, we're going to check right
22 now just to confirm.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well.
24 MR. WEBER: If not, I do have a B/C/S version available for
25 counsel here today to use in court.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: So let him have it.
2 MR. ALARID:
3 Q. Now, Mr. VG-89, what I've handed you is what I believe is the
4 B/C/S version of your 1995 statement. Do you recognise that?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, the paragraph that I handed or at least instructed the court
7 assistant to look at starts with the date the 20th of May, 1992, Behija
8 Zukic, the owner of a private shop. It's actually the next paragraph
9 related to the next day, the 21st of May, 1992, that I'd ask you to look
10 at, please.
11 A. I'm sorry, I can't see that.
12 Q. It should be the very next separate paragraph saying, "While the
13 funeral of Behija, Medo, and his wife at the town cemetery ..." and it
14 goes on from there. And a little later, it states that, "Milan Lukic
15 along with a group of his Chetniks arrived at the cemetery gate in a
16 white Lada and a green two-and-a-half ton TAM truck, which he had stolen
17 from Behija."
18 MR. ALARID: And for the court assistant, that is on page 4 of
19 the English version.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I found it.
21 MR. ALARID:
22 Q. And considering that this happened before you knew who Milan
23 Lukic was from your sister's friend, that's why I'm wondering if you're
24 just assuming this later because of what you heard.
25 A. No. Later, after all of this when we had reached free territory,
1 I found out about the TAM
2 that's when I found out that the TAM
3 While all this was going on, I didn't know, but I included this in my '95
4 statement because in the meantime I had learned who the truck had
5 belonged to, but that wasn't before '95.
6 Q. So isn't it true that at a hundred and fifty metres different, it
7 would be very difficult to identify a single person that you did not know
8 before and never had seen before?
9 A. Well, maybe it wasn't all of 150 metres, but I had a clear view
10 of who was leaving that truck and how those people were moving,
11 especially because having left the truck, they stood there for quite some
12 time waiting for those people to return. It wasn't like they were
13 standing outside the truck for a mere one or two seconds. They actually
14 spent some time standing there.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid, we have to take the break now.
16 MR. ALARID: Yes, sir.
17 --- Recess taken at 12.10 p.m.
18 --- On resuming at 12.42 p.m.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Alarid.
20 MR. ALARID: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Q. Mr. VG-89, what I'd also like to point out is that in your 1995
22 statement, you also included a Mitar as being someone you were able to
23 see from a hundred and fifty metres away. Do you recall that?
24 A. No.
25 MR. ALARID: Would the court assistant please bring 2D01-0143 and
1 2D01-0152, which are the simultaneously B/C/S and English versions of the
2 1995 statement, and I'd like to direct him to page 5 of the English
4 Q. And so you can look, sir, do you still have the paper statement
5 in front of you of the B/C/S?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Could you turn to roughly page 5 to the first mention of the 12th
8 of June, 1992. Actually, the question I was going to ask you was with
9 regards to the incident with -- with Kasim, and in your statement -- in
10 your statement of 1995, you indicate that the person that you knew as
11 Milan Lukic had a short machine-gun, not a sniper rifle, as you testified
13 MR. WEBER: Objection. That misstates what the statement says.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: And what does the statement say?
15 MR. WEBER: If I could direct counsel's attention to the third
16 line in the English version.
17 MR. ALARID: Armed with a light machine-gun. Light machine-gun.
18 I'm sorry. I said short.
19 Q. Your testimony today was that during that incident the person
20 that you knew to be Milan Lukic had a sniper rifle, yet in your statement
21 of three years after the incident you indicate he had a light
22 machine-gun. Isn't that true?
23 A. No, it wasn't a machine-gun that he had. He had this rifle, a
24 sniper rifle. I don't even know what a machine-gun looks like.
25 Q. But isn't it true that you did read and sign that statement in
2 A. It's true.
3 Q. And the best time to correct those kinds of situations is when
4 you're signing something?
5 A. That's right. But I didn't read it or correct it. There were
6 some mistakes concerning the translation from Bosnian into English,
7 concerning some names and, as I now realise, some developments, but I
8 haven't looked at this statement for years. I don't think I ever
9 actually read the entire statement. If I had at an earlier stage, I
10 probably would have made a number of suggestions to them about possible
11 corrections such as this machine-gun detail. I don't even know what a
12 machine-gun looks like.
13 Q. But I would point your -- a little further down in the paragraph,
14 you indicated that in fact you had an understanding or knowledge that
15 Kasim was killed by Dragan and Boban Tomic. Is that true?
16 A. This is something I heard after I'd left Visegrad, but I saw
17 Milan Lukic take him away. I didn't see for myself who killed him. I
18 just heard from the other Muslims that Dragan and Boban Tomic had killed
20 Q. Did they give you any details beyond that?
21 A. Not that I remember. I wasn't there myself, so I can't really
22 say. Perhaps they did mention something else but nothing that I remember
24 MR. ALARID: Could the court assistant please back up the English
25 version to page 4 and direct the B/C/S version to the paragraph where it
1 says, "The next day, May -- 21st of May 1992."
2 Q. Now, isn't true that in this paragraph you indicate that you
3 recognised Mitar, a waiter in the Visegrad hotel, despite being a hundred
4 and fifty metres away?
5 A. I didn't say that I recognised him at the time, not at the time.
6 I didn't recognise Milan Lukic at the time, either. I realised that this
7 was the same person when I was off to Macedonia. I didn't know at the
8 time who he was, and the same applies to Mitar. My friend and I were
9 saying that this was a waiter from Panos. Mitar is someone I never saw
10 from close up. Therefore, I wasn't able to guarantee 100 per cent, but
11 we just heard that this was a waiter from the Panos cafe. It wasn't
12 until later on that I saw Mitar around town when he forced me to sweep
13 the streets.
14 Q. And can you tell me when Mitar forced you to clean the streets?
15 A. It was before we left for Macedonia. Mitar was carrying an
16 armband with a Red Cross or something, the civil protection unit or
17 whatever, and he was saying that was in charge of making sure the streets
18 were swept properly, but that didn't go on for very long, and I left
19 immediately after.
20 And then there was another time he got drunk and he nearly killed
21 me. I was with another guy who was a Serb, and he told that guy not to
22 hang out with me because I might be killed, and then he made some other
23 threats, but then another man whom I didn't know came along, and he saved
24 me from Mitar and took me back home. This was something that was
25 happening before we left for Macedonia
1 Q. But you just indicated to me that you learned who Mitar was in
2 terms of him being at the Behija Zukic funeral after you left to
4 MR. WEBER: Objection, Your Honour. I believe that misstates the
5 witness's previous testimony on line 23 at page 25.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Tell us how it misstates it.
7 MR. WEBER: The question posed said after he left for Macedonia
8 The witness just indicated that he learned it before he left for
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, let me -- Witness, who did you learn who
11 Mitar was? Was it before you left for Macedonia?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Before I left, when he got hold of
13 us outside in the street and made us clean the streets. I was just
14 walking down the street, but it was before I left for Macedonia and not
15 after that I learned. It was between the 21st of May and the beginning
16 of June, which was the time we set off for Macedonia. It was at that
17 time that I realised who Mitar was, and I heard that he was a waiter at
18 Panos. I heard this from the local Muslims who knew him better than me,
19 and the same local Muslims who he also made clean the streets.
20 MR. ALARID:
21 Q. But I guess more specifically what I'm asking you is, who told
22 you that Mitar was at the Behija Zukic funeral, and when did you learn
24 A. When we left the funeral, my friend and I, it was then that we
25 discussed this, who that man was and who knew him. I didn't know him
1 well enough, but my friend knew him much better than I did because that
2 man had made his brother clean the streets before, and he even went to
3 their home to call him to come out and clean the streets. And then my
4 friend told me, "This is the person who came for Samir to make him clean
5 the streets when he actually came to their flat," and that's when I
7 Q. And you were discussing this as the people were being herded into
8 the truck or later?
9 A. Later.
10 Q. And are you telling me that Samir could recognise Mitar
11 Vasiljevic from a hundred and fifty metres away, more than -- much more
12 than a football field's length?
13 A. Not Samir, Almir. Almir recognised him, and he later said that
14 he was the man who had come for Samir, and that's why he recognised him.
15 He probably came to their home in that same suit or whatever. I don't
16 know exactly what happened. I just know that he told me that he had come
17 for his brother and that he had forced him to clean the streets.
18 Q. But that's a separate issue. I understand why your brother might
19 know someone as he knocks on his door and tells him to come out and clean
20 the streets, but what I'm -- what I want to understand is how Almir can
21 recognise a man a hundred and fifty metres away.
22 A. I've said it about four times, I believe. Maybe it was less than
23 150 metres. I said so in my statement. It was in the roughest of terms.
24 It may have been less. It's very difficult for me to say.
25 Q. Would you agree that it's difficult to recognise a person from
1 one end of a football field to another without binoculars?
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: I believe you have different concepts of what is
3 a football field.
4 MR. ALARID: That's true. I do, Your Honour. But I think of a
5 hundred metres as sort of the average length, but I agree; it is a little
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let's have the witness's answer, and let us move
8 on, move away from this.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My friend said this was the same
10 person who had knocked at his door, and that's how we realised that the
11 person was Mitar.
12 Q. Since you were not -- since you were approached to give the
13 interview in 1995, is it true that the interviewers gave you names of
14 suspects in Visegrad of which they wanted to question you about?
15 A. I don't remember.
16 Q. So they didn't suggest to you that they wanted to ask you about a
18 A. They just asked about what had happened at the bridge. They --
19 they weren't asking any questions about the rest or how Milan Lukic
20 killed those kids. That's what they asked about.
21 Q. And so as you were first approached, they asked you about Milan
22 Lukic specifically?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And you didn't bring up that name on your own, did you?
25 A. I certainly did. I was the first to drop his name, and it wasn't
1 before such time that they asked me about that person. The people who
2 were asking me these questions didn't even know about him. It was after
3 I'd brought him up myself that they asked if he was from Visegrad and if
4 I knew where he was from, that sort of thing. They didn't know who had
5 killed those persons until I told them.
6 Q. But isn't it true that the name of Milan Lukic had been talked
7 about before this interview amongst you, your family, and members of your
9 A. I think the whole town of Visegrad
10 half the town, probably. In my presence, he killed two kids. That's all
11 I can say because that's what I saw. I don't know about the rest.
12 Q. Now, when you were getting ready to get on the bus convoy and
13 you're with your sister's friend who spoke with this man named Milan
14 had never seen this man before that day, never been introduced to him?
15 MR. WEBER: Objection, compound question.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: I don't see it as compounded.
17 Had you seen -- had you been introduced to that person before,
18 before that day?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Before that day, I didn't know the
20 name of that person. I had just seen him, one, at a distance, and I
21 wasn't sure who he was until I saw him next, and on that occasion the
22 picture came back to me, and I recognised him from the occasion at the
23 cemetery when I had seen him earlier. I hadn't learned his name until my
24 friend's sister addressed him and he took me away, brought me to the
25 prison and said, "None of these people here are allowed to touch you.
1 It's Milan Lukic's order."
2 MR. ALARID:
3 Q. Did you ever see a brown Passat in Visegrad?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Did you notice any other Passats in Visegrad of any colour?
6 A. Passat, the kind that the Zukic family had, I had never seen
7 driven or owned by anyone else. Maybe there was similar Passat 20 years
8 old, but nobody else had a new Passat of any colour.
9 Q. Did you -- of your sister's friend that talked to this Milan
10 did -- how old was she?
11 A. The same age as Milan
12 Q. How old is that?
13 A. I think around 25, 26. I don't know. I didn't ask her.
14 Q. Did you have information of when she graduated from secondary
15 school or the year of her birth?
16 A. No. I wasn't that close friends with her. I was friends with
17 her brother.
18 Q. And when she called him and spoke to him, she only used the first
19 name. Is that true?
20 A. At first when she addressed him, she said Milan, but later after
21 he asked her something, she said Milan Lukic. At any rate, they were
22 talking about school, their class, something like that.
23 Q. And other than this person, you would not have had a name to a
24 face? Is that fair?
25 A. Right. Otherwise, I wouldn't know the name of that man.
1 Q. And regardless -- and at any other time during your encounters
2 with the police or your stay at the police station or your ride on the
3 bridge, no one ever addressed each other by names. Isn't that true?
4 A. Correct. Those Serbs in the car did not use names.
5 MR. ALARID: Just a moment, Your Honour. I'm almost done.
6 I have nothing further, Your Honour. Thank you.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Alarid.
8 Mr. Cepic.
9 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour. No questions for this
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Any re-examination, Mr. Weber?
12 MR. WEBER: Yes, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, proceed.
14 Re-examination by Mr. Weber:
15 Q. VG-89, you were asked some questions about where you were kept at
16 the police station between the 14th of June and the 17th.
17 MR. WEBER: If the court usher could please call up photograph
18 under 65 ter number 178.29.
19 Q. VG-89, directing your attention to the photograph that now
20 appears before you, do you recognise this photograph?
21 A. Yes, I do.
22 Q. What is it a photograph of?
23 A. It's inside the MUP building in Visegrad.
24 Q. Does this photograph truly and accurately depict the inside area
25 of the MUP building?
1 A. Correct. This is from -- taken from the entrance door.
2 Q. Could you please describe the stairs and where they lead in this
4 A. These stairs start from the very entrance into the building.
5 They lead upstairs, and this glazed room with the frame painted blue is
6 the reception area where I was first led when Milan Lukic brought me.
7 MR. WEBER: At this time, the Prosecution would tender this
8 exhibit into evidence, 65 ter number 178.29.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
10 THE REGISTRAR: It is admitted as Exhibit P104, Your Honours.
11 MR. WEBER: If the court officer could please call up 65 ter
12 number 178.31.
13 Q. VG-89, directing your attention to the photograph that now
14 appears before you, do you recognise this photograph?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. What is depicted in this photograph?
17 A. The inside of that reception area, and the other white door over
18 there leads into the office where they put the knife under my throat on
19 that occasion.
20 Q. Does this photograph truly and accurately depict the reception
21 area and the other office?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Was this the initial area in which Milan Lukic brought you when
24 you arrived on the 14th of June, 1992, this reception area?
25 A. Yes.
1 MR. WEBER: At this time, the Prosecution offers 65 ter number
2 178.31 into evidence.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
4 THE REGISTRAR: It is admitted as P105, Your Honours.
5 MR. WEBER: If the court usher could please call up 65 ter number
7 Q. VG-89, directing your attention to the photograph that now
8 appears before you. Do you recognise what's depicted in this photograph?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. What does this photograph depict?
11 A. This first room on the right with the door open is the one where
12 I spent those three days. Facing it is the lavatory where this man Lelek
13 took me and filled the bottle of water for me. The room on the right is
14 where I spent the three days.
15 Q. Does this photograph true --
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Weber.
17 MR. WEBER: Yes, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Why didn't you do this in examination-in-chief?
19 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, it's the last photograph. I was
20 conscientious of time, and it was brought up in -- I believe, based on
21 cross-examination there was some lack of charity as to the set-up of the
22 police station, so the Prosecution at this time is clarifying the
23 cross-examination that was conducted.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, with a very liberal interpretation of how
25 it arises, yes, we'll admit it.
1 MR. WEBER:
2 Q. VG-89, you mentioned that you were in this area on this floor
3 throughout the entire time that you were there. Were you able to see the
4 entrance from the spot in which you were being kept while at the police
6 A. Yes, I was able to see the street through the small window; and
7 through this open door, which was barred, I could see the police and the
8 paramilitaries passing by.
9 MR. WEBER: No further questions.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, that concludes your evidence. We thank
11 you for coming to the Tribunal to give it, and you may now leave.
12 [The witness withdrew]
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome, before you call the next witness,
14 may I ask whether you have any evidence forthcoming that will tell us
15 about the fate of the red Passat?
16 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Okay. Next witness.
18 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the next witness, Your Honour, is
19 VG- --
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm sorry. Mr. Alarid, did you want to say
22 MR. ALARID: Just housekeeping, Your Honour. I did want to
23 tender 2D01-0143 and 2D01-0152, which is the '95 statement under seal;
24 and I would tender 1D10-1679 and 1D10-1690, which is the January 2001
25 statement, into evidence.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. I'm not sure whether the court deputy got
2 all of that.
3 THE REGISTRAR: The numbers are not in the transcript entirely,
4 Your Honours, but the 1995 statement will become 1D47, and January 2001
5 statement will become 1D48. Both under seal, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: And I'll ask both parties -- or all parties to
7 make an effort to remember to have the documents tendered during their
9 Yes, Mr. Weber. Are you also a culprit?
10 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, I just wanted one other housekeeping
11 matter too. I don't know if it was clear whether or not the Prosecution
12 formally tendered 65 ter number 178.30, the last photograph, into
14 THE REGISTRAR: It will be admitted as P106, Your Honours.
15 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the next witness is VG-63. If it
16 doesn't distract the court too much, I'd just like to switch some
17 personnel here in the courtroom. There are a few matters -- the attorney
18 who will be handing this witness is just outside the door. If I might
19 use this time, Your Honour, before the witness is called in, there are a
20 couple of matters I'd like to raise with the Chamber while the witness is
21 being brought in and...
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
23 MR. GROOME: The first is, Your Honour, with respect to VG-002,
24 I've carefully reviewed it this morning, and just assessing the overall
25 evidence that the Chamber has heard, I'm no longer certain that it's
1 essential evidence that need be before the Chamber. I think what we
2 intended to elicit through this witness has been established both with
3 the Chamber's decision in adjudicated facts on other witnesses. So the
4 Prosecution will be withdrawing that witness or not be calling the
5 evidence of that witness, and I will be filing a written application with
6 respect to that.
7 Your Honour, I'm also conscious of the fact that this present
8 witness as well as this upcoming witness I anticipate may take in excess
9 of the time that we originally estimated. I believe that -- I mean,
10 again, these are simply estimates, but there is -- it occurs to me that
11 there's one other way that we could shorten the case and remain on track,
12 and that's the third witness that's planned to be called is VG-16, and
13 the attorney who's been working with him finds him very traumatised.
14 He's an elderly man. He's actually the father of one of the boys who
15 you've heard was killed at the bridge, and we -- and I'm asking, would
16 the Court entertain an oral motion to convert his mode of testimony to 92
17 ter. We would lead any of his evidence that deals with the accused, but
18 in terms of the other information not directly dealing with the accused,
19 would the Court entertain an application by the Prosecution to amend the
20 mode of testimony? I think in this way we could take his testimony much
21 more briefly. One of the concerns of the attorney taking him is that
22 he's very, very long-winded and hard to control.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, before I rule, let me just hear Mr. Alarid
24 and Mr. Cepic on that.
25 MR. ALARID: We would object to the 92 ter placement, Your
1 Honours. It was not tendered in advance, so we would ask that they hold
2 to the viva voce.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: When is that witness due?
4 MR. GROOME: He's the witness after this witness, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: After this. I see.
6 MR. GROOME: And I would just note, I've looked at 92 ter.
7 Although the practice is that it is done in a pleading procedure before
8 trial, there is nothing in the rule that requires it to be done that way.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
10 MR. GROOME: And I feel we can meet their --
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid, are you disadvantaged in any way?
12 Are you prejudiced in any way? I don't see how you are.
13 MR. ALARID: Well, Your Honour, only -- and only in so much as
14 sometimes the original recollection of a witness is something that the
15 Court needs to observe, and in this particular case considering the fact
16 that the counts against my client were not necessarily the same as
17 Mr. Vasiljevic or -- or before, that to a certain degree he would be
18 touching on brand new evidence of which I don't think that the
19 Prosecution should be obliged to lead through.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic.
21 MR. CEPIC: Your Honour, related to VG-16, no objection for the
22 mode of testimony pursuant to Rule 92 ter. And with your leave, just if
23 I may say just one sentence related to VG-63, just for the record I think
24 -- this is my humble opinion that this witness is not relevant for this
25 indictment. Just for the record. Thank you very much.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid.
3 MR. ALARID: Just to bring the Court's attention, Your Honour,
4 with VG-16 there are two statements, the January 6th, 1995, statement and
5 the April 10, 1997
6 and so that also kind of adds to the difficulty of doing it 93 ter when
7 we have two statements with the English translation pending.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Now, Mr. Groome, what do you say to that?
9 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I'm addressing that issue with Mr. Van
10 Hooydonk at the moment, but I'm not sure that really would change
11 anything. If the English translations are not available in a timely
12 fashion, of course we'll hold the witness for as long as necessary so
13 Mr. Alarid has a full opportunity to cross-examine him on those.
14 Your Honour, I would point out, just -- I think there was a bit
15 of a misstatement. He did not testify in the Vasiljevic case. The only
16 prior -- or the written evidence that we would be submitting would be his
17 ICTY statements.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, the Chamber accepts the submission made by
19 the Prosecution to convert VG-16 to a 92 ter statement, and it also
20 accepts the withdrawal of witness -- what was the name of the witness?
21 MR. GROOME: VG-002, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: VG-002, yes.
23 Closed session for the forthcoming witness.
24 [Closed session]
11 Pages 1816-1824 redacted. Closed session.
12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.41 p.m.
13 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 18th day
14 of September, 2008, at 8.50 a.m.