1 Thursday, 9 October 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 8.53 a.m.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome.
6 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, if I could just address you briefly.
7 The first is, yesterday morning, Mr. Alarid raised a matter with respect
8 to a motion that he had to compel disclosure. We submitted a filing
9 yesterday evening in relation to this. Circumstances have changed since
10 the original filing, and I believe that the reasons for our original
11 request to redact the statement are no longer sufficient to -- to seek
12 the relief that we were requesting, and that is reflected in the
13 submission of yesterday evening.
14 I have provided unredacted copy to both Mr. Alarid and Mr. Cepic
15 this morning. So that's my report on that matter.
16 The other thing I do want to mention to the Court is we ended
17 yesterday with Mr. Alarid making a motion to strike the testimony of
18 VG-142, as well as to exclude from evidence Prosecution Exhibits or
19 currently marked for identification P147 to 150.
20 I do want to address the Chamber on that matter; and upon
21 thinking about it overnight, it's actually a bit more complex than I can
22 deal with very shortly. So I would ask that after the witness testifies
23 today, but before the Chamber renders its decision, that I be given an
24 opportunity to address the Chamber on those issues.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well, Mr. Groome.
1 Mr. Cepic.
2 MR. CEPIC: This is to continue my practice that I always have
3 something to raise, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: You have a proclivity to rise that needs to be
6 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I'm well aware that this
7 Honourable Trial Chamber is currently considering the issue I'm raising,
8 but I would like to state, just for the record from our Defence team,
9 this is an issue of 65 ter lists. We have a deadline for 17th of October
10 of 2008, but, as we know now, the OTP has not completed their case; and
11 according to Rule 65 ter (G), it has to be after the closing of
12 Prosecution case, just for the record.
13 Thank you very much.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Cepic.
15 The witness.
16 [The witness entered court]
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
19 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may begin.
21 MR. COLE: Yes. Good morning, Your Honours. Counsel's name is
22 Cole for the Prosecution this morning. With this witness, there are
23 protective measures in place. He's to be referred to by a pseudonym,
24 screened from the public, and there is to be facial and voice distortion.
25 Could I ask that the court usher please pass this pseudonym sheet
1 to the witness.
2 WITNESS: WITNESS VG-017
3 [Witness answered through interpreter]
4 Examination by Mr. Cole:
5 Q. VG-017, can you hear clearly?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Now, you have been granted protective measures by the Court in
8 the form of screening from the public, facial and voice distortion, and
9 the use of a pseudonym, which is VG-017.
10 On the piece of paper before you, can you confirm that your name
11 and date of birth are correct?
12 A. Yes, the information is correct.
13 Q. Could you -- could you please sign that pseudonym sheet.
14 MR. COLE: Could the court usher please show the pseudonym sheet
15 to the Defence and to the Chamber, and I would ask that the pseudonym
16 sheet be entered into evidence, under seal.
17 THE REGISTRAR: It will become Exhibit number P151, under seal,
18 Your Honours.
19 MR. COLE: Your Honour, I would now ask that the court usher
20 provide the witness with a pseudonym reference sheet.
21 MR. CEPIC: I'm sorry. Just for the record, the date of birth
22 is -- is wrong according to statement.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness confirm whether that is so.
24 Is the date of birth correct, Witness?
25 My microphone is on.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well.
3 MR. COLE:
4 Q. VG-017, the reference sheet in front you contains the names of
5 persons you may mention or be asked about in your testimony. Next to
6 their names are pseudonyms for them.
7 I would ask if you could kindly use the pseudonym instead of the
8 name of the person if you refer to any of these persons during your
10 Do you understand this?
11 A. Yes.
12 MR. COLE: Your Honours, could I just indicate that, in a proper
13 way, I hope to be able to lead some uncontroversial matters from this
14 witness so that we may conclude his evidence today. Of course, there may
15 be proper objections, but I'd like to move through the evidence, and I'm
16 sure the Court would, so that he's concluded by the end of the day.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, proceed.
18 MR. COLE: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Q. VG-017, what is your ethnicity?
20 A. Muslim. Islamic, if you like.
21 Q. And from what country are you?
22 A. The former Yugoslavia, now Bosnia and Herzegovina.
23 MR. COLE: Your Honour, could I ask that we go briefly into
24 private session.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Private session.
1 [Private session]
17 [Open session]
18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
19 MR. COLE:
20 Q. Now, VG-017, did there come a time when the conflict in Bosnia
21 reached your village in Visegrad in 1992?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And can you recall when the Uzice Corps entered your village?
24 A. I don't remember the date, but the year was 1992.
25 Q. And did the local Serb forces enter your village as well at about
1 that time?
2 A. They were there throughout.
3 Q. Now, did you subsequently move from your address in the
4 settlement or village into the centre of Visegrad? Please don't say the
5 address you moved to.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And do you recall a time when some soldiers arrived at that
8 address to search the address?
9 A. Yes.
10 MR. COLE: Your Honour, could we please go briefly into private
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Private session.
13 [Private session]
22 [Open Session]
23 MR. COLE: Can the witness please be shown the photograph with
24 the 65 ter number 178.62.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
1 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: I have a question for clarification to
2 the witness.
3 When you said you left Visegrad on the 18th, did you flee
4 Visegrad or were you evacuated from Visegrad?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I fled, but, at the same time, I
6 was expelled.
7 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Thank you.
8 MR. COLE:
9 Q. VG-017, could you please indicate when you can see the photograph
10 on the screen before you?
11 A. This is Dusce, and this is the furniture factory.
12 Q. The large complex of buildings that we can see in the photo
13 running the length of the photo, next to the river, can you confirm that
14 as the Varda factory?
15 A. Yes, it is. It's also a sawmill.
16 Q. And the large river running across the photograph from left to
17 right also, confirm that as the Drina River?
18 A. That's right.
19 Q. And you can confirm that that is a road which is running
20 diagonally across the photograph below the Varda factory?
21 A. Yes. The River Drina is parallel to it, and then there's the
22 road obviously.
23 Q. And the Drina River flows from which side of the picture to which
25 A. To the right.
1 Q. And the direction of Visegrad is on the left or the right of the
3 A. On the right.
4 Q. Now, the left of the photograph is a large building next to the
5 road with a tall chimney stack. Can you see that?
6 A. Yes. That's the sawmill.
7 MR. COLE: Your Honour, I would ask that this photograph be
8 entered into evidence.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: We admit it.
10 THE REGISTRAR: It's Exhibit number P152, Your Honours.
11 MR. COLE: Yes. Thank you. Could the witness please be shown
12 the photograph 65 ter 178.3.
13 All right. Let's try this one. Could the witness please be
14 shown this photograph, it doesn't have a 65 ter number, it is
15 ERN 0544-9983. The ERN number is 0544-9983.
16 Q. VG-017, can you see the photograph on the screen before you?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And does that show part of the Varda factory with the Drina River
19 in the foreground?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Can you see almost in the centre of the photograph a car parked
22 with some people standing alongside it?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Running right across the length of the photograph, alongside the
25 river, and just below the car is a long structure. Can you confirm that
1 that is a wall?
2 A. This wall was built recently, after the war.
3 Q. So you can confirm that the wall was not in place in 1992?
4 A. That's right.
5 Q. Now, VG-017, did there --
6 MR. COLE: Perhaps we'll enter that into evidence. Could that be
7 entered into evidence and given a P number at this point, please, Your
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
10 THE REGISTRAR: It is admitted as Exhibit P153, Your Honours.
11 MR. COLE: I'm going to ask the witness about that --
12 MR. CEPIC: I'm sorry. Could we have some more clarification
13 about the position of factory related to this photo? Thank you.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Counsel, would you ask a few more questions
15 about that.
16 MR. COLE: Yes. Certainly, sir.
17 Q. Now, VG-017, on the left of the photograph, just above the wall,
18 there are a number of buildings. Could you just indicate what buildings
19 as part of the Varda factory you can see in the photograph?
20 A. This entire compound that looks white, apart from the path
21 outside, all of that belongs to the Varda factory.
22 Q. And can you -- amongst the buildings, is there a workshop and an
23 administration building belonging to the Varda factory?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Now, VG-017, did there come a time in 1992 when you witnessed an
1 incident at the Varda factory during which some men were taken away from
2 the factory to the river?
3 MR. ALARID: Objection, leading.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, I agree. Reformulate.
5 MR. COLE:
6 Q. VG-017, I'm going to ask you about an incident that you witnessed
7 in 1992. VG-017, you're here today to testify about an incident that you
8 witnessed in 1992. You're aware of that, aren't you?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. So I'm now going to ask you about that incident that you
11 witnessed. Now, you told the Court that you left Visegrad on the 18th of
12 June, 1992. Was the incident that you are now -- that you now are about
13 to describe at the Varda factory before or after the 18th of June, 1992?
14 A. Before.
15 Q. Can you tell the Court about the first thing you noticed of this
16 incident that you're going to describe, the first thing you noticed?
17 A. I noticed the arrival of a car outside the Varda factory.
18 Q. Can you remember about what time of the day it was?
19 A. Between 9.00 and 11.00.
20 Q. And at what part of the Varda factory did the car arrive?
21 A. The road was damaged over there, and then on the other side,
22 there was the railroad track, so another road was made on the other side
23 of the factory.
24 Q. Was there a particular building or structure that the car arrived
25 nearby to?
1 A. It passed a building that we refer to as "Dom," which is a rather
2 large building.
3 Q. In the photograph before you, is there a part of the Varda
4 factory known as a guardhouse visible?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Did the car arrive anywhere near that particular guardhouse that
7 you can see?
8 A. Yes.
9 MR. COLE: Your Honour, could we go briefly, please, into private
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Private session.
12 [Private session]
11 Page 2691 redacted. Private session.
7 [Open session]
8 MR. COLE: Now, VG-017, you were hiding behind --
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
10 MR. COLE:
11 Q. VG-017, you've told us you were hiding behind some barrels, and
12 it was from this location that you saw a car arrive.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Now, the position where the car arrived and stopped, could you
15 put a cross at that location, please.
16 A. Could you repeat that?
17 Q. Yes. You've indicated that when you were hiding that day, you
18 saw a car arrive in the Varda premises that day. Could you mark with a
19 cross the location where the car arrived and stopped, please.
20 A. [Marks]
21 Q. And above that cross, could you write the English letter C for
23 A. [Marks]
24 Q. Now, to the left of the letter C that you have just written is a
25 small building, a small browny-red building with what appears to be a
1 door and a window. What is that building?
2 A. It's the guardhouse.
3 Q. Could you draw a circle around the guardhouse.
4 A. [Marks]
5 Q. And place the English letter G above that circle.
6 A. [Marks]
7 Q. Yes. Thank you. Now, could you tell us who was in the car or
8 who got out of the car?
9 A. In the beginning, I couldn't say; but later, I heard it was Milan
11 Q. Had you seen the car before that day?
12 A. Yes, I have.
13 Q. Who had been driving it on the other occasions you had seen it?
14 A. About 200 metres from my house, there lived a woman called Behka.
15 Q. I'll come back to that topic a little later, but could you just
16 tell us on how many other occasions you had seen that particular car at
17 that location?
18 A. Well, a couple of times.
19 Q. And where had you seen it?
20 A. Well, it came to Varda all the time.
21 Q. Did it ever pass by your house?
22 A. It passed by all the time, because there was no other way.
23 Q. Can you tell the Court about an occasion when someone brought
24 that car to your address looking for you?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Who was the person who came looking for you?
2 A. Milan Lukic.
3 Q. Did he manage to locate you on that occasion?
4 A. No.
5 Q. What year was that?
6 A. 1992.
7 Q. Do you know what month it was?
8 A. I don't know.
9 Q. Was it before or after the 18th of June, 1992?
10 A. Everything was before.
11 Q. Do you know who the owner of that car was?
12 A. Yes, I do.
13 Q. What's the name of the owner?
14 A. It was Zukic. I can't remember the first name now. It eludes
16 Q. Okay. Now, did you know that it was her car from seeing her with
17 the car or because someone else told you that?
18 A. Well, she drove by constantly in that car until the war began.
19 Q. All right. We'll return now to the incident that you were
20 witnessing from behind the barrels.
21 How many persons arrived in the car at the Varda factory with
22 Milan Lukic?
23 MR. ALARID: And I would object to the characterisation of Milan
24 Lukic since the witness has already testified he had no personal
25 knowledge of who that was at the time, since other people told it to him
1 after the fact, and he was a considerable distance away.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cole, is he able to say at that time that
3 the person in the car was Milan Lukic?
4 MR. COLE: I'll clarify that with him, Your Honour.
5 Q. Now, VG-017, the person who arrived in the car that day, did you
6 recognise him to be Milan Lukic, or did you -- do you believe the person
7 to be Milan Lukic because of what other persons have told you?
8 A. Yes, I knew it was Milan Lukic.
9 Q. How many times had you seen Milan Lukic before that day?
10 A. Two or three times.
11 Q. Did you know anything about Milan Lukic's family?
12 A. I knew a few things.
13 Q. Did you know where they were from?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Where was that?
16 A. From Rujiste.
17 Q. All right. The vehicle that you saw that day, did it have number
18 plates on it, at the Varda factory, I'm talking about?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Can you remember the colour or the make of car that you saw
21 arriving at the Varda factory?
22 A. No.
23 Q. So how many persons in total got out of the car?
24 A. Three.
25 Q. How was Milan Lukic dressed?
1 A. He had plain clothes.
2 Q. Was he carrying anything or holding anything in his hands?
3 A. An automatic rifle.
4 Q. Can you recall if the other persons were carrying or holding
6 A. They all had weapons.
7 Q. Now, you've mentioned the building was a guardhouse. Was there a
8 factory guard present there?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. What happened after Milan and the others got out of the car?
11 A. First, they went down to the workshop; they brought ought one
12 man, a mechanic; and they took him to the guardhouse.
13 Q. Did you recognise the mechanic by name?
14 A. Yes. His name was Nedzad Bektas.
15 Q. What happened next?
16 A. They went again into Varda and took people out.
17 MR. COLE: Your Honour, could we please go into private session.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Private session.
19 [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Chamber]
20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in private session.
21 MR. COLE:
22 Q. Did you see any other workers brought out at the point you're now
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Can you tell us the names of any of these workers?
1 A. Those were Ibrisim Memisevic ...
2 Q. Is there another name that you're trying to think of, or is that
3 the total of the names you can remember?
4 A. Nusret. I can't remember the last name now.
5 Q. Did you include the name of this Nusret, his last name, in the
6 written statement or statements that you've previously made?
7 A. I did, but I can't remember it now.
8 MR. COLE: Your Honour, I wonder if the witness could be given
9 his statement to refresh his memory. It's a surname, one surname, that
10 we're looking for here.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Certainly.
12 THE REGISTRAR: I apologise. Would the counsel like to tender
13 the photo with the markings of the witness?
14 MR. COLE: Yes. Yes. Perhaps if we could -- if this photograph
15 hasn't been tendered as an exhibit, if we could get an exhibit number
16 now, please.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
18 THE REGISTRAR: It will be admitted at Exhibit P154, Your
20 MR. COLE: Thank you.
21 Q. VG-017, you're being given copies of the two written statements
22 you made previously.
23 I just ask that you have a look through and see if you can find
24 there the name of the -- the surname of the man Nusret that you have just
25 testified about.
1 If you have a look at your statement from 1998, the eighth
3 A. Aljusevic. It's Nusret Aljusevic.
4 Q. Yes. Thank you. I'm going to ask you some more questions
5 now, VG-017.
6 You've given us the names of three workers from the Varda
7 factory. Did you know these men personally?
8 MR. ALARID: Your Honour, we would object to the statement being
9 left in front of the witness. He's reading it.
10 MR. COLE: Yes. VG-017 --
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute. If you're going to refer to your
12 statement, Witness, please let us know. If you wish to extract any
13 information from the statement, then let us know first.
14 MR. COLE: Yes. Thank you.
15 Q. VG-017, could you please close the statements now in front of
16 you, and we'll --
17 A. In case I forget something.
18 Q. All right. VG-017, you have told us the names of three of the
19 workers from the Varda factory. Did you know any of these men
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. How was it that you knew them?
1 [Open session]
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're now in open session.
3 MR. COLE:
4 Q. How many workers were brought out from the factory on that
6 A. Six to seven.
7 Q. And where were they gathered together or kept after they were
8 brought out of the factory?
9 A. All were kept outside the guardhouse.
10 Q. Who was looking after them or guarding them?
11 A. There was that guard and another two armed men, and the guard was
12 armed, too.
13 Q. Now, the total of men that were brought out, you've given us the
14 name of three of them. Do you know the names of the other persons or
15 were you given the names of the others persons who were brought out from
16 the factory?
17 A. I knew them because they were workers, but I've forgotten since.
18 Q. How many times did Milan Lukic go into the factory and come back
19 with workers?
20 A. Twice.
21 Q. What happened after the -- the group of workers were gathered at
22 the guardhouse? What did Milan Lukic do?
23 A. They took them -- he took them down to the Drina River and killed
25 Q. Did Milan Lukic go in front of these -- these workers or was he
1 behind them or where was he on the trip to the driver?
2 A. The workers were walking in front of him.
3 Q. How many workers did he take to the river on this first occasion?
4 A. As far as I could see, there were three of them.
5 Q. Was Milan Lukic carrying anything or have anything in his hands
6 at the time?
7 A. He had an automatic rifle.
8 Q. Were the other workers whiting at the guardhouse waiting there
9 voluntarily or were they being forced to wait there? Do you know?
10 A. What are you talking about voluntarily. Of course, not.
11 Q. Can you remember which persons -- which workers were taken in
12 that first group to the river?
13 A. I remember only about one of them, because I couldn't see the
15 Q. Can you remember the name of that person?
16 A. His name was Nedzad.
17 Q. And his last name?
18 A. Bektas.
19 Q. Did you recall anything that Milan Lukic was saying to the men as
20 he took them to the river?
21 A. I didn't hear that, but as they started walking to the river,
22 Milan Lukic put his arm around Bektas.
23 Q. As they were going towards the river, did you lose sight of Milan
24 Lukic and these three men?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. What was your vision obscured by at that point?
2 A. Well, there was an outhouse between me and the Drina River, near
3 the road.
4 Q. After you lost sight of Milan Lukic and the workers, what did you
5 hear, if anything?
6 A. I heard shooting.
7 Q. What sort of shooting?
8 A. Automatic fire.
9 Q. Can you please have a look at the photograph before you again.
10 I'm going to ask you to mark something on the photograph.
11 MR. COLE: It's ERN 05 --
12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
13 MR. COLE: ERN 0544-9983, and I've forgotten the exhibit number.
14 Oh, it's there. Okay.
15 Q. Now, VG-017, can you see that -- the photograph once again on the
16 screen before you?
17 A. [No verbal response]
18 Q. Firstly, can you put a cross on the outhouse you described before
19 that was obscuring your vision.
20 A. [Marks]
21 Q. And above that put the English letter O for "outhouse."
22 A. [Marks]
23 Q. Could you now put a cross at the position where you believe Milan
24 Lukic and the workers were at the time you heard the shooting.
25 A. [Marks]
1 Q. And could you put the English letter S alongside that.
2 A. [Marks]
3 Q. And, finally, could you just draw a straight line from the
4 position where the men were at the guardhouse to the position where you
5 say Milan Lukic and the workers were when you heard the shots.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic.
7 MR. CEPIC: If I may assist, just technical issue. Could we use
8 different colour? It would be easier later on to distinguish some
10 MR. COLE: Yes. Just hold it for a moment. I'm not aware of the
11 technicalities of different coloured --
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well --
13 MR. COLE: Could we have another colour, please.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, if that is possible, then let it be done,
15 but I don't consider it a crucial issue.
16 MR. COLE:
17 Q. All right. You have a different coloured pen now, VG-017. I'm
18 going to ask you to draw a line from where Milan Lukic left with the
19 workers from the guardhouse and the route he took to the place where you
20 heard the shots.
21 A. [Marks]
22 Q. Yes. Thank you. That's recorded in a black pen on the exhibit.
23 The other markings were in blue.
24 MR. COLE: Yes. Could we now please go into private session,
25 Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
2 [Private session]
2 [Open session]
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
4 MR. COLE:
5 Q. VG-017, why did you change your viewing location?
6 A. I moved in order to get a better view, firstly, and, secondly, to
7 hide better.
8 MR. COLE: Yes. Could I tender the exhibit into evidence,
9 please, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: We admit it.
11 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P155, Your Honours.
12 Q. How long did it take to get from the barrels to the henhouse?
13 A. A second perhaps.
14 Q. Did you continue to observe what was happening at the Varda
15 factory from your new location?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. After you heard the shots by the Drina River, how many persons
18 did you see reappear from that location?
19 A. I'm not sure I understand.
20 Q. You heard the shots by the Drina River, you've told the Court.
21 Did you see anyone coming back from the area where you heard the shots?
22 A. No, but Lukic walked back half the way.
23 Q. What did he do then?
24 A. He was standing midway down the road, and he called to the other
25 three or four -- I don't remember exactly, but that there were three or
1 four other men there. He called them from the midway down the road, then
2 they walked over to him, and they all went down as far as down as the
3 Drina riverbank?
4 Q. At this stage, was Milan Lukic holding or carrying anything?
5 A. Yes, an automatic rifle.
6 Q. Where did he go with the second group of workers that he beckoned
7 to him?
8 A. They went down to the river. He was standing outside, but he
9 forced them to go into the river, and then he shot them from the back.
10 Q. Did you see all that happen that you've just described to us?
11 A. No. I just heard the shots.
12 Q. Was your vision on this occasion obscured by the same outhouse
13 that you described before?
14 A. That's right.
15 Q. What sort of shooting did you hear on this occasion, the second
17 A. The same as before.
18 Q. And what did you see after the shooting?
19 A. Lukic walking back to the car and driving off towards the centre
20 of town.
21 Q. Which car did he drive off in?
22 A. The same that he had arrived in.
23 Q. Do you know if anyone left with him in the car?
24 A. The same people who had come there with him.
25 Q. What did you do then?
1 A. I retraced my steps, and, later on, I walked back into town, and
2 then back the way I had come that same night before I eventually fled
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: You told us earlier, Witness, that he shot them
5 in the back in the river, but you didn't actually see. Did you ever see
6 the men who were shot after they had been shot?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I saw one of them. I buried
8 his body. His mother found him near the Drina River, and then the ladies
9 from my house took the body back up. We gave the body a burial. As we
10 were digging a grave, someone started firing at us from the other
11 riverbank. We had to wait and we couldn't finish burying the body, but
12 the body had been -- the back of the body had been riddled by bullets.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: What I meant was: Did you see any of them in
14 the river after they had been shot?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Cole.
17 MR. COLE:
18 Q. Yes. VG-017, you've told us about the men being shot. Did you
19 learn about the circumstances there of their shooting from other persons
21 A. People were saying things, but I wasn't really listening
22 carefully. All I was thinking about at the time was how to escape
24 Q. In relation to this second group of workers that you saw Milan
25 Lukic taking towards the river, what was the last thing you saw before
1 the -- the shots that you heard? What was the last thing you saw Milan
2 Lukic and the men doing?
3 A. Well, once those people had been killed, this group got into the
4 car and they drove off.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cole, how much longer will you be in your
6 examination? We have -- we are about five minutes from the break.
7 MR. COLE: I think maybe, maybe ten minutes, a quarter of an
8 hour, Your Honour.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, very well. Proceed.
11 MR. COLE:
12 Q. I just want to make it clear, VG-017, with the second group of
13 workers going towards the river with Milan Lukic, you lost sight of them
14 on the way down towards the river, and you heard some shots shortly
15 thereafter. Does that summarise it?
16 A. Yes, I heard shots.
17 MR. COLE: Your Honour, if we could go briefly into private
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, private session.
20 [Private session]
7 [Open session]
8 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
9 MR. COLE:
10 Q. Now, while you were hiding, after you had witnessed what you had
11 at the Varda factory, did a woman pass by your address crying or weeping?
12 A. Yes. That was Ibrisim's mother.
13 Q. And did she speak to you about finding the body of her son?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Did you speak with her on this occasion?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Now, did you help bury the body of one of the victims from the
18 Varda factory?
19 MR. ALARID: And he is -- these are leading questions, Your
21 MR. COLE: In fact, Your Honour, the witness, in response to Your
22 Honour's questions a short time ago, was telling us about the very
23 matters I'm now asking him, so I think we have it on record.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, yes, that is so, but I'd wanted to ask why
25 it was necessary, Mr. Cole, to be in private session for the name of the
1 victim who is deceased and who is mentioned in the indictment.
2 MR. COLE: Sir, are we in private session now?
3 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: You want to give the answer in private session?
5 MR. COLE: Yes.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Private session then.
7 [Private session]
2 [Open session]
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
4 MR. COLE:
5 Q. Now, VG-017, you told the Court a short time ago that you helped
6 to bury the body of one of the victims from the Varda factory.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And this man, the man whose body you helped to bury, was Ibrisim
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And shortly after the men were killed, it was the mother of this
12 man who passed by your address?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did you help bury this man in the Dusce area?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And at whose request did you bury his body there?
17 A. They were watching all of this from further up, and then his
18 mother walked down crying. She went down as far as the Drina River bank
19 and found her son's body, the body of Ibrisim.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll have to take the break now, Mr. Cole.
21 --- Recess taken at 10.19 a.m.
22 --- On resuming at 10.43 a.m.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Cole, to conclude.
24 MR. COLE: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Q. VG-017, you told the Court earlier that when you located or when
1 you saw Ibrisim Memisevic's body, it was riddled with bullets. Do you
2 recall that?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Do you recall how many bullet holes or bullet wounds you saw?
5 A. I can't remember exactly, but there were more than ten.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: When was that, Mr. Cole?
7 MR. COLE: That was --
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: When did he see the body in relation to the
10 MR. COLE: Yes.
11 Q. VG-017, when was it and how was it that you were able to see the
12 body of Ibrisim?
13 A. When we buried body.
14 Q. Where was the body when you first saw it before you took it to
15 bury the body?
16 A. His mother brought his body from the riverbank and from his home
17 on a cart to this location of his grave.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: When was that burial? Was that the same day as
19 the shooting or a day after, or just when was it?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The next day.
21 MR. COLE:
22 Q. And did anyone assist you with the burial?
23 A. Yes, yes.
24 Q. Who was that?
25 A. I was there; and Ismaela Jeta [phoen]; her son, Mustafa
2 Q. And you said earlier that while you were conducting the burial,
3 there was some shooting at you. Do you know who it was that was shooting
4 at you?
5 A. Well, we knew who. The Chetniks, all of them.
6 Q. Now, I'm going to ask that the -- that you be shown another
7 photograph, ERN 0545-0161.
8 MR. COLE: This is a still from P54 as the previous exhibit was.
9 Q. I ask that that be shown to you now. Right.
10 Can you see the photograph in front of you, VG-017?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Can you see the guardhouse that you have earlier described?
13 A. Yes. This is the small guardhouse, but the photo was taken from
14 a different angle.
15 Q. Yes. Using the pen, can you -- and with the assistance of the
16 court usher, could you please write the English letter G on the
17 guardhouse on that photo.
18 A. [Marks]
19 Q. Now, can you please, with an X, mark the location that you were
20 hiding behind the barrels, when you viewed the scene at Varda that day.
21 A. [Marks]
22 Q. And can you put the English letter B above that cross.
23 A. [Marks]
24 Q. Can you now put a cross where you viewed the scene from the
25 henhouse that day.
1 A. [Marks]
2 Q. And above that cross, could you put a double H, double English
3 letters H for "henhouse."
4 A. [Marks]
5 Q. Yes. Thank you.
6 MR. COLE: Your Honours, I would now ask that that exhibit be
7 tendered into evidence.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
9 THE REGISTRAR: The Exhibit will become P156, Your Honours.
10 MR. COLE: Yes. Thank you. I have a last topic to ask the
11 witness about, Your Honours.
12 Q. VG-50 -- VG-017, I asked you earlier and you gave some testimony
13 about the car that Milan Lukic was driving; and on that occasion, you
14 said that the owner of the car was a lady by the name of Zukic. Do you
15 recall that?
16 A. Yes, Behka Zukic.
17 Q. What occupation or business did she have at the time in 1992?
18 A. She owned a store.
19 Q. Are you aware now that she was killed in 1992?
20 A. Yes. She was the first victim to be killed in Visegrad when the
21 war broke out.
22 Q. Whereabouts was it that she was killed?
23 A. In her own home.
24 Q. Where did she live? Where was her home?
25 A. In Dusce.
1 Q. Do you know what happened to her husband and son?
2 A. Yes. They were killed as well some days before, her husband and
3 her son.
4 Q. Did you yourself see the body of Behija Zukic?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Were you summons to go to her address that day?
7 MR. ALARID: Objection, leading.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: In the circumstances, I'll allow it.
10 MR. COLE:
11 Q. What happened when you arrived at her address that day?
12 A. I was near the house and there was a phone that I was using at
13 the time. I got a call saying that an ambulance would be on its way to
14 take her to hospital.
15 Q. So what did you do?
16 A. I was on my way past some other houses. I took a different path,
17 it was a village path, and then eventually I reached her house.
18 Q. Can you describe the condition of her body when you saw it?
19 A. An ambulance arrived, a doctor and a driver. They pulled up
20 outside the house.
21 Q. And did you assist with removing her body to the ambulance?
22 A. Yes. We took the stairs up to the first floor, and when we
23 reached the hallway on the first floor, this lady was lying in the
24 following position: Half her body was in one of the rooms, and half her
25 body was out in the hall, face down.
1 Q. Did you notice any particular wound?
2 A. Yes. When we placed her body on a blanket, we turned her over so
3 she was now face up. She had a braid that was as thick as a hand. The
4 braid had fallen across her face. We placed her dead body on this
5 blanket, but the brain came out of the skull. I picked up her brain, but
6 the doctor swore at me and ordered me to leave it where it was, so the
7 brain remained on the floor just lying there.
8 Q. Whereabouts was the wound --
9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Cole, please.
10 MR. COLE: Thank you.
11 Q. Whereabouts was the wound on her head?
12 A. She was shot from the back in the neck, the back of her head, and
13 her whole head was blown to pieces.
14 Q. Do you know what month in 1992 that was?
15 A. I don't know, but it was early on in 1992 [as interpreted]. She
16 was the first victim to be killed in Visegrad.
17 Q. Now, just finally in relation to the --
18 MR. ALARID: Your Honour, a note for the transcript. Mr. Ivetic
19 heard "1991" as opposed to "1992," if we could check on the tape.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Can you let us know what was said, interpreter?
21 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter believes that he heard "1992,"
22 but, of course, the tape can be checked.
23 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Why don't you clarify it with the
25 MR. COLE: Yes. I'll ask the question again.
1 Q. VG-017, I'm going to ask the question again.
2 Can you tell us, are you able to assist us with which month it
3 was in 1992 that you saw the body of Mrs. Zukic?
4 A. At the very beginning. I can't remember the --
5 MR. ALARID: [Previous translation continues] ... objection.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm sorry, Mr. Alarid, I didn't hear your
8 MR. ALARID: The restatement of the question was leading.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, that was the question that he had put.
10 MR. ALARID: No. Specifically, he says "assist us with which
11 month it was in 1992 that you saw Ms. Zukic."
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: But he earlier had asked: "Do you know what
13 month in 1992 that was."
14 MR. ALARID: That's still leading, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, there was no objection at that time. That
16 was the question which he had put.
17 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Isn't the point moot, because the
18 interpreter has clarified that it was 1992, so I don't think we need to
19 waste more time on this. Thank you.
20 MR. COLE: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Q. Final subject, VG-017, about the car owned by Mrs. Zukic that
22 you've told us about here in court earlier, and you did say that you
23 didn't know what type of car it was that you saw on that occasion at the
24 Varda factory. Were you, however, told by other persons the type of car
25 that Mrs. Zukic owned?
1 A. Yes. I heard at a later stage that this was a new Passat.
2 Q. Yes. Thank you.
3 MR. COLE: I have no further questions, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Cole.
5 Mr. Alarid.
6 Cross-examination by Mr. Alarid:
7 Q. Sir, my name is Jason Alarid and I represent Milan Lukic. I'd
8 like to ask you a few questions. I'd also like to remind you that you're
9 under oath.
10 Now, sir, I'd like to go with the last statement you made. You
11 indicated that you heard that it was a new Passat; correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Who did you hear this from?
14 A. The neighbours were talking about it, mostly women. Who else?
15 Because men did not dare go out much. As soon as they got out of the
16 house, they would be killed.
17 Q. You said you saw this car on several occasions. What colour was
19 A. I don't know the colour. I don't remember.
20 Q. This is a brand new Passat in Visegrad. Would it be fair to say
21 that there weren't many Passats in Visegrad?
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
8 MR. COLE: Thank you, sir.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Please proceed --
10 Mr. Cepic.
11 MR. CEPIC: I'm sorry for interrupting. We have in the
12 transcript, but we didn't have translation in B/C/S, who Mr. Alarid
13 represents, which client he represents. Thank you very much.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Where is that?
15 MR. CEPIC: This is on -- I'm sorry. We didn't have translation
16 in B/C/S. This is on page 39, line 17, just the name of client.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: You wish Mr. Alarid to state the client that he
19 MR. CEPIC: Yeah. Thank you very much.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, with that very profound point, Mr. Alarid,
21 please state the client that you represent.
22 MR. ALARID:
23 Q. Mr. Witness, did you hear me earlier that I indicated that I
24 represent Milan Lukic?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Now, isn't it true that you didn't mention anything about Behija
2 Zukic or the Passat before your proofing note session of October 8,
3 2007 -- I mean, excuse me, 2008?
4 A. Right. I didn't talk about that.
5 Q. Isn't it true that someone's memory usually gets worse over time
6 as opposed to better over time?
7 A. Right.
8 Q. And it's an important fact, about the car that the person drove
9 to a murder, isn't it?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And isn't it true, in the 1998 statement, you gave no description
12 of the vehicle, make, model or colour?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Now, you first met with the Office of the Prosecutor on the
15 7th of October. Isn't that true?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And you met with the -- Mr. Cole, who is in the courtroom now;
18 and a translator; and also an intern; correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. How long did this meeting on October 7th, the first meeting, how
21 long did it take?
22 A. About an hour.
23 Q. Were you given your statements of 1998 and 2008 to review in
24 anticipation of your testimony at that first meeting?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And during that first meeting, isn't it true that you were shown
2 several photographs, including the ones you looked at in court today?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And in that statement, you also -- in that proofing session, you
6 also reiterated that you lost your mother and two sons as well as your
7 son-in-law in the conflict of 1992; correct?
8 A. Yes. Yes.
9 Q. And in that October 7th meeting, you also clarified that
10 Mr. Lukic, or the person you identified as Mr. Lukic, hugged one of the
11 men, Nedzad Bektas; correct?
12 A. Yes, yes.
13 Q. And then you went to your hotel room, I take it; correct?
14 A. I don't understand.
15 Q. Well, after your proofing session on October 7th, what did you
17 A. Went home.
18 Q. Did you have an appointment to meet with the Prosecutor the next
19 day on the 8th?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And you -- can you tell the Court what happened during that -- or
22 who told you about the red Passat, who reminded you?
23 A. I didn't say it was a red Passat. Who said that?
24 Q. Who reminded you that it was a Passat?
25 A. It was a Passat. I heard it later from the womenfolk. No men
1 dared leave their homes, but all the women were talking about it.
2 Q. Who brought up Behka Zukic?
3 A. I brought her up.
4 Q. So what, during the night between October 7th and October 8th,
5 was the epiphany of which you would now bring up the Zukic situation in
6 relation to the Varda?
7 A. Because it was her car.
8 Q. What, during the night, was the epiphany in which you recalled
9 all of this association with Behka Zukic?
10 A. Because I heard it from the women.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute, Mr. Alarid.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid, I don't like interrupting your
14 cross-examination, I see you're building up to something, but you had
15 earlier asked the witness whether it wasn't true that, in his 1998
16 statement, he made no mention of the vehicle, make, model or colour; and
17 the witness said no, meaning that he didn't accept your proposition.
18 That's what I understood.
19 So I would have expected that you would then have put the
20 statement to the witness to show that the statement, indeed, contained no
21 mention of the car, the make, model or colour.
22 MR. ALARID: In a weird way, Your Honour, I actually understood
23 that he was agreeing with me that he didn't mention it, but I can see how
24 the confusion happened, and I was going to go through his statement. So
25 we'll get there either way. But in the way I absorbed it, I absorbed it
1 that he was agreeing that he didn't mention it.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: I see. You interpret it as agreeing with you.
3 I guess that's possible.
4 MR. ALARID: Let me just ask the witness again.
5 Q. Sir, Mr. VG-017, isn't it true that in your 1998 statement, nor
6 in your 2008 clarification of that statement, did you mention anywhere
7 the make, model, or colour of the car that was at the Varda factory the
8 day you say Milan Lukic was there?
9 A. Yes. I did not mention it anywhere.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Then that clarifies that.
11 Yes, Mr. Cole.
12 MR. COLE: Well, if I could just point out, sir, Your Honour,
13 there is a limited description of the car; and I think, in all fairness,
14 if this type of question is going to be put, he should be referred to his
15 statement at this stage. It does give us some description of a car here,
16 although limited, Your Honour.
17 MR. ALARID: I was going to get to that, Your Honour. I was
18 going to put the statement to the witness to get exactly the limited
19 nature of IDing that a car was there.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Well, it's important to have everything in
21 its entire context, Mr. Alarid.
22 MR. ALARID: Yes, absolutely, sir. Absolutely.
23 Q. Now, in your proofing statement of October 8, 2008, it's also the
24 first time that you mention that: "The witness saw Milan Lukic driving
25 on the road past his house in," your village, "on a number of occasions
1 prior to the witness leaving Visegrad on the 8th of June, 1992. "Isn't
2 that true?
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute. Mr. Cole is on his feet.
4 MR. COLE: Your Honour, we're going to have to have a redaction
5 again because we're mentioning his house again. I wonder if that passage
6 could be noted for redaction.
7 MR. ALARID: I did not mention the name of the village to not
8 have that objection.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. I think it's sufficiently general not to
10 be indicative of anything.
11 MR. ALARID:
12 Q. Isn't that true, sir?
13 A. Again, I don't understand what you're talking about.
14 Q. Isn't it true that October 8th, 2008, in the proofing session
15 with the Prosecutor, is the first time you mentioned that Milan Lukic
16 drove on the road past your house "on a number of occasions prior to the
17 witness leaving Visegrad"? The witness is you, sir.
18 A. That's true.
19 Q. And isn't it true that in your 2008 October 8th proofing session
20 is the first time that you claim Milan Lukic was in the same car each
21 time, and that it was a new car? Correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. But you can't tell us the colour, but you can tell us it was new?
24 A. I don't know the colour, but I know it was new because my
25 neighbour used to drive it.
1 Q. But isn't it true, in your 1998 statement, you indicated that you
2 did not know Milan Lukic before the Varda incident and, in fact, learned
3 his identity only by hearsay of other people?
4 A. It's true.
5 Q. And the first time that you were able to supposedly identify
6 Mr. Lukic, you were at a considerable distance from the Varda factory,
7 isn't that true, a hundred and fifty metres or more?
8 A. It's true that he passed by my house all the time. There was no
9 other way for him to go.
10 Q. But if you couldn't recognise the driver of the car passing by
11 your house, how could you associate it with the person in the Varda
13 A. How wouldn't I? I know him. I know the man.
14 Q. Well, let's talk about how you know him. You know he's from
15 Rujiste; right?
16 A. I know the family well, but I don't know him because he was in
18 Q. Isn't it true that you said, in your first statement, that the
19 Milan Lukic you knew of was from Rujiste? Correct?
20 A. Yes, right. He is from Rujiste.
21 Q. You heard this from the women as well, or did you know this on
22 your own?
23 A. I knew that from the time I worked as a driver in the forestry
25 Q. When was that? You retired in 1983.
1 A. Yes. I knew him by his family members who were employed with me
2 in the forestry department, and his name was mentioned.
3 Q. Please give the full names of all the family members that you
5 A. What are you talking about? I can barely remember my own name
6 let alone the names of people from 17 years ago.
7 Q. Well, you were in -- you were in Visegrad area for how long?
8 A. Around 40 years. I arrived in 1963.
9 Q. Well, you say that you worked with members of the Lukic family in
10 the forestry department. What are their names?
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, he has already answered that, you know.
12 He said he can barely remember his own name let alone the names of people
13 from 17 years ago.
14 MR. ALARID: Your Honour, with all due respect, he mentioned
15 Behka Zukic after 18 years of not mentioning her. I'm questioning the
16 limit of this witness's memory, and I think that's appropriate to
17 establish credibility, bias, and ability to remember.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, Witness, are you able to help us with the
19 names of the members of the Lukic family with whom you worked in the
20 forestry department? Yes or no?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All I know is one person, Djordje
22 Lukic. He worked in the warehouse.
23 MR. ALARID:
24 Q. And what relation was Djordje Lukic to Milan Lukic?
25 A. That I don't know.
1 Q. How old was Djordje Lukic?
2 A. He was not a young man, but I don't know how old he was. How
3 would I know?
4 Q. Well, in your statement of 1998, you indicated that Mr. Lukic,
5 Mr. Milan Lukic, was short, on the chubby side; correct?
6 A. Yes. Right.
7 Q. With black hair with oil in it, greased back?
8 A. Maybe.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cole.
10 MR. COLE: Yes, Your Honour. I'm looking at the statement. The
11 description of Mr. Lukic, it doesn't say "short" as I read it, so I
12 wonder --
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid, why don't you put the statement?
14 MR. ALARID: Certainly. I think we're there.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: The witness should have the statement in front
16 of him.
17 MR. ALARID: Absolutely, Your Honour.
18 Could the court assistant bring up 1D10-2765; B/C/S version is
20 Q. Sir, do you recognise these first pages as the statement you gave
21 in 1998, 14th of February?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And I note a signature at the bottom of the page.
24 MR. ALARID: Can the court assistant go down to that and verify
1 Q. Is that your signature, sir?
2 A. Yes.
3 MR. ALARID: And can the court assistant go to page 1 of the text
4 of the statement, which is page 2 on the English version, and I believe
5 page 2 on the B/C/S version. Can we go to the bottom paragraph, please.
6 Q. Now, do you see that there you're indicating that the person you
7 believe to be Milan Lukic came to the Varda factory around 11.30 in the
8 morning? Correct?
9 A. I think it was from 9.30 to 11.30. I was there around 9.00.
10 Q. And in that paragraph. You indicate that Lukic is from the
11 village of Rujiste, "and I knew the Lukics well because they worked in
12 the forestry department..." Correct?
13 A. [No interpretation]
14 Q. Now, you indicate --
15 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter could not hear the witness.
16 He's speaking past the microphone.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, could you give that answer again? The
18 interpreter did not hear.
19 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]
20 MR. ALARID:
21 Q. And could the witness repeat himself, please?
22 A. I didn't hear well what you meant.
23 Q. In your statement of 1998, you indicate: "I knew the Lukics well
24 because they worked in the forestry department ..."
25 Is that true?
1 A. Yes. It's the older members of his family who worked there.
2 Q. Well, when you say "they," how many members of his family worked
3 there, even if you cannot remember their names?
4 A. I know about one of them who worked in the warehouse, the stock
5 manager, Djordje Lukic.
6 Q. How many other members of his family worked there?
7 A. I don't know exactly. I didn't keep records. How would I know?
8 I was a driver.
9 Q. Well, the reason I'm asking you, sir, is you used the word
10 "they," meaning plural, more than one. So other than Djordje, how many
11 people of the Lukic family worked at the forestry department of your
13 A. I don't know.
14 Q. Now, still, on the -- on the first page of your statement, you
15 indicate that: "During the Uzice Corps' time in Visegrad, there were
16 still murders and burnings." Correct -- or excuse me, "murders"?
17 A. Yes, in all of the suburbs of Visegrad.
18 Q. And isn't it true that once the Uzice Corps left, only the
19 reserve troops withdrew, but the rest of the army stayed? Correct?
20 A. The Uzice Corps, when they arrived in Visegrad, numbered around
21 3.000 soldiers.
22 Q. And when they left, how many stayed?
23 A. Well, that I don't know.
24 Q. Just from you being a 40-year resident, did you recognise many
25 faces that you'd never seen before that were Serb soldiers?
1 A. How would I be able to see them at all when I was living in a
2 mouse hole?
3 Q. So when did you actually go into hiding and not come far away
4 from your home?
7 Q. And can you recall when that was in at least the month and year?
8 A. It was in 1992, but I can't tell you the month because we were
9 seized by great fear.
10 Q. And at what point in time did you unfortunately lose track of
11 your sons? Was that before or after you went in riding?
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Cole.
13 MR. COLE: Yes. I wonder if we could have a redaction, Your
14 Honour, page 51, line 9.
15 MR. ALARID: I believe the witness mentioned his own village.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, that should be redacted.
17 Mr. Alarid, there are two matters I am waiting for you to mention
18 in relation to the statement: One, that it has no mention of the car;
19 and the second point --
20 MR. ALARID: I believe it's the description of the witness, Your
21 Honour, and that's on the next page.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: You're coming to that.
23 MR. ALARID: Yes, it's the next page. I just didn't want to go
24 off the page and have to come back.
25 Q. The question I asked you, sir, before we turn the page is at what
1 time did you lose track of your sons? Was it before or after you went
2 into hiding?
3 A. That was after I went into hiding.
4 Q. And did you ever receive any justice for their disappearance?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Did you ever receive any justice for the disappearance of your
7 mother or son-in-law?
8 A. No. My son-in-law was found in Zepa. The river carried him to
9 Zepa. He was found there, and so there was an autopsy and he was --
11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Identification was
13 A. And he was buried in Visegrad.
14 Q. At this time, there were many disappearances of Muslims; correct?
15 A. Not many of us, around 2.500.
16 Q. Who's the chief of police at this time in Visegrad?
17 A. I don't know.
18 Q. Do you recognise the name of Risto Perisic?
19 A. No.
20 Q. How about Dragan Tomic?
21 A. The name rings a bell.
22 Q. Isn't it true that the police were undertaking the arrest and
23 detention of persons of Muslim ethnicity at that time in Visegrad?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Isn't it true that Muslims were beaten at the police station in
2 A. Yes, it's true.
3 Q. Isn't it true that the police confiscated many vehicles and
4 trucks from Muslim persons?
5 A. Well, what they took from me alone was two cars and a motorbike.
6 Q. And many other Muslims were looted as well, sir. Isn't that
8 A. All of them.
9 MR. ALARID: Now we're going to switch to the next page, please.
10 Q. And isn't it true that the first time you saw the person you
11 believed to be Milan Lukic was on the day of the Varda incident?
13 A. That day that I mentioned in 1992; so, yes, that's correct.
14 Q. And at the time you first saw this person, you did not know his
15 name, you did not know that he was going to be identified as Milan Lukic.
16 Isn't that true?
17 A. True.
18 Q. And even on the day that you say he had come by your home, you
19 didn't see that person, did you, nor did you see the vehicle that this
20 person came in; correct?
21 A. I saw everything.
22 Q. From where you were hiding in your home?
23 A. I was on the first floor.
24 Q. And where would you be able to see, especially since you do not
25 describe it in your statement of 1998?
1 A. How on earth could I have not seen it? I was sitting on a chair
2 in the room on the first floor, and the window was wide open. You need
3 to climb about five or six stairs to reach my house in the first place,
4 but I noticed the car down there and saw Milan Lukic walk up the steps.
5 I --
6 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not understand the last
7 part of the witness's answer.
8 MR. ALARID:
9 Q. Could you please repeat the last part of your answer, sir. The
10 interpreter did not hear it.
11 A. When I heard the car pull up outside the house, I saw Milan Lukic
12 get out of the car. I was sitting on a chair, and the window was open.
13 I went out the window since the window was open, and the window was on
14 the side of the house, and then I hid.
15 Q. Well, the reason I -- I believe that you did not see it is
16 because if you read the paragraph describing this incident, you state,
17 "Apparently, he was asking for me by name." And "apparently" indicates
18 that you didn't hear it, but you were told that by someone else.
19 A. Who else could have said that? He was the only person in the
20 house. Everyone else had fled. I was hiding by night-time.
21 Q. Well, then, if no one's there, how is he going to ask for you by
22 name? There's no one to talk to.
23 A. I don't know.
24 Q. Now, in your statement, you indicate that this Lukic is about 30
25 to 35 years old. Isn't that true?
1 A. I did say that, but I didn't know for sure.
2 Q. And then you go on to say: "He is of medium height and on the
3 chubby side." Isn't that true?
4 A. Yes. Yes.
5 Q. And you go on to say that he had darkish hair with oil on his
6 hair. Isn't that true?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And you go on down to say that: "I saw that Lukic was wearing
9 civilian clothes when he came on that day." Are you indicating the day
10 at the Varda factory or the day at your home?
11 A. At my home.
12 Q. So, on the day of the Varda factory incident, what were the
13 people wearing that came to the Varda factory?
14 A. Some JNA uniforms, olive drab, and some -- the other kind of
16 Q. The reason I'm confused, sir, is if you go down to the second
17 paragraph, it indicates that basically one person and three other men
18 call, and then you said that, "I don't know the three soldiers that he
19 was with. These three wore the camouflage uniform and some had the SMB
20 uniform." "Some" indicates more than one person to me, so it appears
21 that there were more than four by that paragraph.
22 A. I only saw three.
23 Q. And the person that you believe to be Milan Lukic at the time,
24 what was he wearing?
25 A. Civilian uniform, as far as I remember.
1 Q. Please describe the civilian uniform.
2 A. I can't remember.
3 Q. Can you remember colour of pants or colour of shirt?
4 A. No. How on earth could I possibly remember that sort of thing?
5 I was doing my best to get out of the way.
6 Q. Was he wearing a jacket or a hat?
7 A. Perhaps. Perhaps he was wearing a jacket, but I think his head
8 was bare.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let us hear Mr. Cole.
18 MR. COLE: Yes, Your Honour. We're getting details now that
19 shouldn't be part of a public session. If could I ask, on this page,
20 there be some redactions, I think from the question on page 56, line 12.
21 We start talking about working and socialising at that point, and if
22 counsel could be careful, please.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Alarid. You do have to be more
24 careful. So we have to redact those sections. The court deputy will
25 note that.
1 MR. ALARID: Can I proceed, Your Honour?
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
3 MR. ALARID:
4 Q. Do we have to go into private session to mention any of the
5 deceased or persons that this witness believes were taken out, because we
6 are in open session?
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cole, I'll be advised by you.
8 MR. COLE: Yes. You Honour, the names of the victims, I don't
9 believe there's any need for those to be in private session, if that's
10 what counsel's asking.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much.
12 MR. ALARID:
13 Q. And what about Cancar Musan?
14 A. I knew him by sight, he was or familiar face, but not his name.
15 Q. Could you, from your vantage point at that house or the henhouse,
16 could you tell Cancar? Could you identify him?
17 A. No.
18 Q. But you're positive that you saw Nedzad Bektas; correct?
19 A. Of course. He was the first to be taken there.
20 Q. And you also mentioned Ibrisim. Could you tell him from a
21 distance, or did you learn that later from his mother?
22 A. I'm not sure I understand.
23 Q. Well, you indicated that you helped bury Ibrisim; correct?
24 A. Right. The moment they brought him there.
25 Q. The moment the women brought him to the burial sight, is what
1 you're saying?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. So you couldn't tell Ibrisim at a distance from where you were in
4 the henhouse or your house; correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 MR. COLE: Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Cole.
8 MR. COLE: Your Honour, the question and the answer are a little
9 ambiguous, in my submission, similar to a question and answer before. I
10 wonder if any event if the counsel could be a little bit clearer in his
11 question as to the occasion to which he refers.
12 MR. ALARID:
13 Q. Well, how about, could you read the last paragraph of page 3 of
14 the B/C/S statement, please -- or actually second to the last, sir, which
15 begins with "Lukic." In middle of the paragraph, it appears to me that
16 you only learned of the identity of Ibrisim later from his mother, not
17 that you identified him directly at a distance.
18 A. I see you're asking me about plenty of detail here. When they
19 took him as far as the guardhouse, he knelt down, and his family over
20 there, the wife and the children, were across the fence. He was looking
21 at his children, and they called him and then he walked over.
22 Q. Isn't this true that this is the first time you mentioned that
23 about Ibrisim in any statements, including in the proofing sessions, and
24 earlier in testimony today?
25 A. No. But you're making me say it, aren't you?
1 Q. No, sir. I don't believe I'm putting those words in your mouth.
2 You just indicated that that's what you believe.
3 Isn't it true that you did not witness the incident at the Varda
4 factory but heard the entire thing from other people and want simply to
5 help those people find justice?
6 A. I was positive, and my evidence is 100 per cent certain.
7 MR. ALARID: Could we please put on witness statement of 15 April
8 2008, uploaded as 1D10-2775.
9 But before we do that, I would like to tender the 1998 statement
10 into evidence.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's the statement you've just gone through?
12 MR. ALARID: Yes, sir.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, then, you should put it to him that
14 nowhere in the statement is there any mention of the car.
15 MR. ALARID: I can do that, Your Honour.
16 We'd need to back up. Are we already on the next?
17 Q. Well, just, sir, isn't it true that nowhere in your 1998
18 statement do you mention a make, model, or type of car, correct, the
19 statement we've just gone through, 1998?
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. Now, what we're --
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid, you should further question him now
23 as to how he came for the first time to mention the car.
24 MR. ALARID: Well, I thought I'd asked him that in terms of
25 that --
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: It follows more logically now.
2 MR. ALARID: I will do that, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cole.
4 MR. COLE: Yes. In fact, in the written statement, he does refer
5 to some details about a car. Now, counsel is asking him questions about
6 the car without the witness being able to look at the detail that he has
7 included in his statement. Now, in fairness, and the statement is now
8 going to be admitted, certainly the English translation gives these
9 details: "It was a ..." --
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Where is that?
11 MR. COLE: It's on page 3 of the English version, sir, the second
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Could that be shown -- shown for us to see?
14 MR. ALARID: It's page 3, directly under the paragraph describing
15 Lukic as 30 to 35 and chubby side. So we have to go back to the earlier
16 exhibit. That would be 1D10-2765.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cole, is this at paragraph 12?
18 MR. COLE: Sir, in fact, we're talking about the earlier
19 statement. It doesn't have paragraph numbers.
20 MR. ALARID: I was going to go on to the 2008 -- I was going to
21 go on to the 2008 where he further clarifies.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: I just want to be clear now about the 1998
24 MR. ALARID: Yes.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is there anything in it about the car.
1 MR. ALARID: There is.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: That was a proposition that you had put to the
4 MR. ALARID: Yes. Paragraph two, Your Honour, of that page 3.
5 He came to the Varda factory with three other men.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: I see.
7 MR. ALARID:
8 Q. Mr. Witness, can you see --
9 MR. COLE: Just a moment. Your Honour, as part of my objection,
10 I'd like to point out two features here, and counsel is compounding
11 matters by putting unclear or ambiguous propositions to the witness.
12 Now, in this paragraph, as we can see here, he has given a
13 limited description: "It was a new car, the newest type of limousine."
14 Now, that's a description of a car. That's quite something other than no
15 description of a car at all.
16 And second matter that I would like to raise an objection about
17 is counsel's proposition to the witness that he had said Milan Lukic was
19 MR. ALARID: Your Honour, I'm sorry --
20 MR. COLE: Just a moment --
21 MR. ALARID: I corrected myself in reading out the statement that
22 it was medium.
23 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, your microphone.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Now these are points, of course, which you
1 may raise in re-examination, Mr. Cole, quite properly. It doesn't mean
2 that you can't raise them now.
3 JUDGE DAVID: Mr. Alarid, continuously during these sections in
4 which you have participated, I don't know why you do so, but I would
5 recommend you that you really faithfully cite the passages to the
6 witnesses, because you have contributed continuously to confusion by
7 altering the text that you are cited and, on many occasions, combining
8 texts that are additionally confusing the situation.
9 So I will expect you from your professional integrity, when you
10 refer to transcript put to the witness, please do carefully your work
12 Thank you very much.
13 MR. ALARID: Yes, sir, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid, part of the reason why you get into
15 that difficulty is that when you're using previous statements, you must
16 put the statements in front of the witness. Have the statements put in
17 front of the witness. Judge David's points are well taken.
18 MR. ALARID: I take the admonition. Yes, sir.
19 Q. Have you read the second paragraph, sir?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Now, you gave a description of a newer kind of limousine. What
22 do you mean by "limousine"?
23 A. A new car. What else could I say? Limousine, white, a new car.
24 Q. Don't you think, from your vantage point of the house, it would
25 be easier to tell colour?
6 Q. Wouldn't it be true, though, if you had known this car to be
7 Ms. Zukic's car and also seen it driven past your home on several
8 occasions, that should have been something that was fresh in your mind in
9 1998, as opposed to being disseminated to the Prosecution just a couple
10 days ago?
11 A. The car drove past, and we all knew who drove it, and we all knew
12 who the car belonged to, and that's all I know.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cole.
14 MR. COLE: Yes. I wonder if we could have the witness's age
15 redacted, page 62, line 24.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
17 MR. ALARID:
18 Q. Sir, that wasn't the question I asked you. What I asked you is,
19 if you had seen this car personally, also knowing it to be the car of
20 Ms. Zukic, before the incident at Varda --
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. -- if you had seen it and known it, shouldn't this have been
23 something you disseminated to the investigators in 1998 as an important
24 fact for this crime?
25 A. Maybe I didn't mention it at the beginning, and then the next
1 time I did. I know this for sure, that this car belonged to Behka.
2 MR. ALARID: Could now the witness be shown 1D10-2775 -- well,
3 actually, Your Honour, could we tender the first exhibit, the first
4 statement 1998, into evidence at this point?
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 1D10-2765 will become Exhibit
7 number D163.
8 MR. ALARID:
9 Q. Now, sir, as we go to that, isn't it true that in your first
10 statement, you didn't know if this incident had happened in April or May?
11 Isn't that true?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And, in fact, in your first statement, you indicated that it was
14 at the beginning -- or excuse me, end of April, beginning of May, best of
15 your recollection?
16 A. At the time.
17 Q. But in your --
18 MR. ALARID: Can we go down to the --
19 THE REGISTRAR: I apologise, just a correction. The previous
20 Exhibit is 1D63.
21 MR. ALARID: Okay.
22 Q. Now, sir, do you recall giving a statement April 15th, 2008, to
23 the ICTY, as a clarification of your 1998 statement ten years earlier?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And in that -- in that meeting in April, you were asked if you
1 could fix the date more accurately. Who were you asked this by?
2 A. I don't remember.
3 MR. ALARID: Could the court assistant show the witness
4 paragraph 9, page 2 of that statement, and they are numbered paragraphs.
5 Q. I ask you to read the last sentence of that, and ask you if it's
6 correct that you do believe it was between May and the sixth month. What
7 does that mean? Clarify please?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. So are you stating that it could have been any time during May or
10 any time during June?
11 A. Well, yes, that's all I remember.
12 MR. ALARID: Could release go to paragraph 12 on page 3.
13 Q. And isn't it true that in that statement, you indicated that you
14 cannot recall the colour or make of the car; correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. But, again, wouldn't this have been an excellent opportunity to
17 mention Ms. Zukic or that it was her car or that you had participated in
18 the burial or removal of her body?
19 A. I participated in the removal of her body, that's true.
20 Q. No, but, sir, what I'm asking you is, when you were in this
21 proofing -- or this statement session in April of 2008, isn't that an
22 excellent time discussing -- even if you couldn't know the make or model
23 of the car, discussing that you knew whose car it was and, in fact, had
24 seen that car on several occasions?
25 A. Yes. This car belongs to the lady named Zukic. I saw it at
1 least twice or three times, and Zukic's first name was Behka.
2 Q. Did anyone tell you that Ms. Zukic's car was important to proving
3 this case?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Then, again, wouldn't it have been an excellent opportunity in
6 April of 2008 to have brought up Ms. Zukic's vehicle?
7 A. Well, how should I know? No one asked. That's all I can tell
9 Q. Could you please read paragraph 13 for the Court, please.
10 A. You want me to read it?
11 Q. Yes, sir. Please read it out loud.
12 A. "I saw Milan Lukic for the first time only after the war began.
13 When he came to Varda factory and killed seven people, I didn't know his
14 identity. I learned only later from other people that it was Milan
16 Q. Who told you it was Milan Lukic? Who were these other people?
17 A. The first was Smaila, the mother of Ibrisim who was killed, but I
18 knew him myself by sight.
19 Q. But I thought you hadn't really seen him before this moment at
20 Varda factory.
21 A. I saw him coming into the Varda factory.
22 Q. And that was the first time you saw this person who you described
23 in your statement as being 30 to 35, and on the chubby side, of medium
24 height; correct?
25 A. That is true, but I knew him from seeing him before.
1 Q. When and where did you see him before?
2 A. I saw him when the war began, when he started going around Dusce,
3 when the killings started.
4 Q. Sir, you said you know -- you knew a lot of people who worked at
5 the Varda factory. Did you know a Sevko Ustamujic?
6 A. Yes, I knew him. He was the chief of the locksmith workshop, or
7 the supervisor, whichever you want to call it.
8 MR. ALARID: Could the court assistant please put on the screen
9 1D10-3184, and what I really want the witness to look at is the last page
10 of the B/C/S statement, which is a map written by Mr. Ustamujic.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: How much longer will you be, Mr. Alarid?
12 MR. ALARID: Other than going through Mr. Ustamujic's statement,
13 some of the names which he mentions in his name, Mr. Ustamujic is a
14 purported eyewitness to the Varda shooting. On June 10th, 1992, he drew
15 a map, identified Mr. Nedzad as one of the victims, and Cancar. In
16 collaboration with this witness, or at least in sync with this witness,
17 however, he identifies two other assailants perfectly and does not
18 identify Milan Lukic.
19 So going through the statement, maybe 30 minutes.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: You would then be in excess of the time that I
21 had in mind. The Prosecutor spent an hour and 35 minutes, and you would
22 have the same time as the Prosecutor. After the break, you will then
23 have about 25 minutes.
25 MR. ALARID:
1 Q. Now, sir, this was a map that was attached to a statement by
2 Mr. Ustamujic, and it describes several buildings of which I believe were
3 in the picture that you started circling on. What I would ask you is,
4 first, to look at this map and see if it accurately reflects the area,
5 although I note the guard shack is not written on this map.
6 A. I can't find my way around this map. I can't remember any of it.
7 MR. ALARID: Can we bring up the photograph, please, that the
8 witness marked up. I believe it was P153, and I believe the marked one
9 is P154, which might be a little bit better reference for the witness.
10 Q. Okay. Witness, I put to you that you have a D over the -- or
11 excuse me, a G over the guard shack, that little building out in the
12 middle of the yard; correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And isn't it true that that building in the foreground closest to
15 the river, next to the left of the guard shack, is the mechanical shed?
16 A. Yes, and the administration.
17 Q. And that white building just to the left of that, isn't it true
18 that that's the upright saw or the JGR building, plant?
19 A. It's the administration of the sawmill.
20 Q. And further off to the left and off the screen is the saw hall
21 and then the main Varda factory; correct?
22 A. Yes, but you can't see it.
23 MR. ALARID: Could we bring the map back on the screen, please.
24 I'm again referring to 1D10-3188.
25 Q. And, so, now that you've had an opportunity to look at the
1 picture, even though this map is not to scale, is it relatively accurate
2 as to the position of the mechanical building as well as what you call
3 the administration building?
4 A. As far as I can see, that is so. It's so, but I'm not sure.
5 Q. Where would you put the guard shack?
6 MR. ALARID: If the court assistant could assist with the pen,
7 the witness, I'd ask him where he would place the guard shack.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's the road. That's the river.
9 Maybe somewhere here.
10 MR. ALARID:
11 Q. Is that the guard shack that you put in the -- in the photograph
12 that you circled, is that where the guard shack would be in relation to
13 the mechanical building and the administrative building?
14 A. I can't see where the guardhouse is. I'm not sure.
15 Q. No, sir. I'm conceding that the guard shack is not on this map
16 as you circled it on the photograph. I'm asking you to draw the guard
17 shack where it should be in relation to the mechanical building and the
18 administrative building, as well as noting the workers' entrance and car
19 entrance which are noted on the map.
20 MR. COLE: Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Cole.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't do any of that.
23 MR. COLE: Well --
24 MR. ALARID: If the witness cannot, I can't push him any further.
25 MR. COLE: That takes care of my objection, the witness's answer.
1 Thank you, sir, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid, we're going to take the break now.
3 --- Recess taken at 12.12 p.m.
4 --- On resuming at 12.43 p.m.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Alarid.
6 MR. ALARID: And, Your Honour --
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Twenty minutes.
8 MR. ALARID: Your Honour, since I am moving on, I would like to
9 tender the witness statement of 15 April 2008, which is 1D10-2775,
10 B/C/S 1D10-2780, into evidence.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
12 Mr. Cole.
13 MR. COLE: Yes. I'm not sure. I think, Your Honour, that's the
14 statement of Mr. Ustamujic.
15 MR. ALARID: No.
16 MR. COLE: It's not?
17 MR. ALARID: The statement of Mr. Ustamujic is a Gorazde sector
18 SUP statement from the 3rd of April, 1996 that was tendered with the
19 packet of this witness.
20 MR. COLE: Can I just be clear, then, which statement counsel is
21 seeking to be admitted now?
22 MR. ALARID: The supplemental statement by this witness of 15 of
23 April 2008.
24 MR. COLE: Yes, I'm sorry. I have no objection.
25 THE REGISTRAR: It is admitted as 1D64, Your Honours.
1 MR. ALARID:
2 Q. And, sir, before I move on further, I would like to refer you to
3 a statement made by you earlier in your testimony, when I queried you
4 about basically: "Then, again, wouldn't it have been an excellent
5 opportunity in April of 2008 ..."
6 MR. ALARID: Can we go to the transcript page 66, lines 1
7 through 4.
8 Q. "Then, again, wouldn't it have been an excellent opportunity in
9 April of 2008 to have brought up Ms. Zukic's vehicle?"
10 Your answer was: "Well, how should I would know? No one asked.
11 That's all I can tell you."
12 So what I'm asking you, sir, is: Who asked you this week about
13 the Zukic vehicle that might have refreshed your recollection to mention
14 her in your most recent proofing session?
15 A. I wanted myself to mention it.
16 MR. ALARID: Can we bring up 1D10-3184, the statement of
17 Mr. Ustamujic.
18 Q. Now, sir, while we're bringing that on the screen, how well did
19 you know Mr. Sevko Ustamujic?
1 Q. Did you know him to have been working through June of -- of 1992
2 at the Varda factory?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Assuming he had been working inside the factory, would you defer
5 to his recollection of the death of Cancar?
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Ask another question. It doesn't help
7 whether he would defer to the recollection of somebody else.
8 MR. ALARID:
9 Q. Did you know that Mr. Ustamujic had given a statement regarding
10 the shooting of Cancar Musan and Nedzad Bektas?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Had you heard of an earlier kidnapping from the Varda factory
13 that occurred approximately 15 or 16 days, on May 25th, 1992?
14 A. No.
15 MR. COLE: Excuse me, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
17 MR. COLE: It's a redaction matter, if I could, on page 71,
18 line 9. It's giving an indication of his association with the Varda
19 factory. I wonder if we could have lines 9 to 11 redacted -- well, in
20 fact, lines 7 to 11, because there certainly the English is a little bit
21 ambiguous; 7 to 11 on page 71.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: The reference to the Varda factory, is it?
23 MR. COLE: Yes, sir. It's an indication that it may indicate his
24 connection with the Varda factory. There are all sorts of matters that
25 are coming out now, but by putting them together, it can paint a picture.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well. Yes, yes. The court deputy will
2 present that for the redaction.
3 MR. ALARID:
4 Q. The date of the shooting that you witnessed at the Varda factory,
5 you indicated that it may have started -- or the incident might have
6 started any time between 9.00 and 11.00. Is that your testimony?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did you see a freight vehicle with a yellow tarpaulin arrive at
9 the front gate of the sawmill?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Now, would it be fair to say that the area that we're -- or that
12 you've described today is not the front gate of the Varda factory? Is
13 that true?
14 A. I don't know how to describe it.
15 Q. Isn't it true that the area where the guard shack is known as the
16 workers' entrance and not the front entrance?
17 A. No. It's only the entrance to the sawmill.
18 Q. Would it be fair to say that that's where the workers at the
19 sawmill would enter?
20 A. Not that gate.
21 Q. Did you know Muho --
22 A. I haven't heard the name well.
23 Q. It's Podzic, P-o-d-z-i-c?
24 A. Podzic, you mean.
25 Q. Yes, sir. Do you know him?
1 A. Yes. He was the manager at the sawmill in Varda.
2 Q. And do you know Ramiz Karaman?
3 A. Yes. He was the foreman in the timber section.
4 Q. Now, did you know some Serbians named Nenad Tanaskovic, otherwise
5 known as Neso?
6 A. Vaguely. I seem to remember he was a driver.
7 Q. Well, actually, wasn't it Slavko Trifkovic that was one of the
8 Varda drivers before the war?
9 A. I can't seem to recall that.
10 Q. Did you know some workers at the factory named --
11 MR. ALARID: And if, just in case I do mispronounce, we could go
12 to page 2 of the statement in B/C/S and English, as the names are written
13 on that page.
14 Q. Now, I'm looking at the middle of the page, sir, of at some names
15 of the workers at the factory.
16 Do you know a Nusret Dzafic?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Did you know an Islam Cero?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Did you know a Husein Mujakic?
21 A. No.
22 Q. But you did know Nedzad Bektas; correct?
23 A. Yes, I do.
24 Q. If I were to tell you that the aforementioned workers witnessed
25 Nedzad being taken away by Tanaskovic and Trifkovic, what would you have
1 to say about that?
2 A. I don't know.
3 Q. If I were to tell you that Mr. Ustamujic did not mention Milan
4 Lukic being present on June 10, 1992 in the abduction and killing of
5 Nedzad, what would you have to say about that?
6 A. You should first ask him where he was hiding.
7 Q. If he was in the factory, would that be a better vantage point
8 than where you were in hiding by the barrels and the henhouse?
9 MR. COLE: Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cole.
11 MR. COLE: Well, "in the factory" could be anywhere, and, with
12 respect, it's not an appropriate line of questioning. "If I were to tell
13 you," we don't know what the basis of that is; but, I suppose, in
14 summary, Your Honour, it's just not an appropriate line of questioning to
15 put some hypothetical issue to the witness.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: I agree. I agree, Mr. Alarid.
17 Move on.
18 MR. ALARID:
19 Q. Did you know --
20 MR. ALARID: And going to page 3 of the statement for the names,
22 Q. Did you know a worker, Abdulah Hamak [sic]?
23 A. It's not Hamak, it's Jamak. Yes, he was a warestock worker in
24 the workshop.
25 Q. And did you know Memis Cancar?
1 A. No.
2 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's collection: Warehouse not
4 MR. ALARID:
5 Q. Did you know Camil Kesmer?
6 A. No.
7 MR. ALARID: Just a moment, Your Honour.
8 Q. This person that you claimed to be Milan Lukic, did you ever get
9 a look at his face?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did he have any facial hair or distinguishing features that you
12 could notice from that vantage other than what you've already described
13 in your statement?
14 A. He was clean-shaven.
15 MR. ALARID: At this time, Your Honour, I would tender 1D10-3184
16 into evidence, and we would have no further questions.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cole.
18 MR. COLE: Yes. Yes, Your Honour. I presume the counsel is
19 talking about the statement of Mr. Ustamujic which we can see on the
20 screen. In my submission, just because counsel runs through a list of
21 names and puts them to a witness, and here even getting a no, in most
22 cases is not a basis for admission of the statement of a person who is
23 not a witness in this case into the evidence through this witness. There
24 is no relevance that I can see.
25 On top of that, I think some notification that this statement
1 will be part of the Defence cross-examination came through at about 9.00
2 this morning. So if there's any suggestion it might be admitted, I would
3 certainly like the opportunity to read it.
4 If I could just have a moment.
5 So, first, just summarising, it hasn't been shown that it's
6 relevant in any way, and, of course, counsel is free to call this person
7 as a witness if he wants to get this evidence before the Court.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
9 On those two points, Mr. Alarid.
10 MR. ALARID: Well, Your Honour, I think what's important is
11 that - and, you know, I know the Prosecution has made this caveat
12 before - is that they're sort of not responsible for the content of
13 statements that they've, in fact, tendered to us through the discovery
14 and disclosure process. However, what we do have is a signed and regular
15 statement of the witness that I think, on its face, is -- is very
17 I think certain points within the statement, with regards to this
18 witness and his knowledge of the persons at the Varda factory, have been
19 confirmed, and, of course, some have been denied; and I wouldn't have
20 expected otherwise from someone who had been retired interest the factory
21 for 10 years prior to the incident.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: But the point being made is about the statement
23 that you're seeking to tender now.
24 MR. ALARID: And I would simply tender it as a statement that is
25 inconsistent with the testimony of the witness, that is otherwise regular
1 on its face, and within a fact that we are operating in a Tribunal that
2 doings accept hearsay, and foundational issues that I think would make
3 admission of this proper.
4 In the alternative, Your Honour, I would ask simply that the map
5 be attached, the handwritten map, as an alternative, but I believe that
6 it is proper for the entire statement to come in.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: This is an age-old issue in the Tribunal. Let
8 us see how we will decide it.
9 MR. ALARID: And I believe we marked the map, Your Honour.
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cole, anything more on this point,
12 particularly if you have anything from the jurisprudence of the Tribunal.
13 MR. COLE: I don't have any jurisprudence, but if I could make
14 these points, please, sir.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
16 MR. COLE: Firstly, statements --
17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
18 MR. COLE: Firstly, sir, I don't have anything from the
19 jurisprudence point of view; but, of course, statements and material is
20 disclosed to the Defence with good and bad. We don't select what goes
21 outs, so not everything supports the Prosecution's case, of course.
22 Now, the statement in question, the witness hasn't read it, I
23 presume. He hasn't been asked. Counsel hasn't read it. I don't know if
24 the Chamber has read the contents of it. In any event, the witness
25 didn't agree that he knew most of the names that were contained in the
1 statement that was put to him. It hasn't been authenticated.
2 Presumably, it's the statement of this man, but it hasn't been
3 authenticated. There is the process of 92 bis or 92 ter or calling,
4 potentially calling, the witness viva voce, if counsel wants to do that.
5 In relation to the map that was drawn, as I recall, the witness
6 did make a mark on the map; but, then, with counsel's concession, which
7 was that he concedes the guard shack was not on the map, so the focal
8 point of this is not even on the map. Then I think the witness, and I
9 haven't looked at the spot, but I think we would find the witness wasn't
10 able to help in the end. He was summarising a little bit confusing, the
12 So, in total, my friend, with respect, hasn't substantiated why
13 this witness statement should be introduced into evidence through this
14 witness. There's -- the connection is far too tenuous and I would object
16 Thank you, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid, very quickly.
18 MR. ALARID: Briefly, Your Honour. Simply, I think we've offered
19 this staple not necessarily for the truth of the matter asserted because
20 that's for a later date, and I can see that to raise the level of
21 reliability of this statement for the Chamber's purposes; and, of course,
22 you're in the position to gauge the weight or credibility of any piece of
23 evidence that we submit.
24 However, we did put this to this witness, and I think from an
25 impeachment of -- of this witness, it is proper; and without the other
1 safeguard --
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: But he denied everything.
3 MR. ALARID: Well, but what he -- but what he did was he did
4 admit that some of these workers were there. And what I find surprising
5 is we've been presented with a witness that has no reference to the
6 actual date and time as noted in the indictment. Here, I've submitted a
7 witness statement taken before this witness ever gave his first
8 statement --
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: We have no authentication of this statement,
10 Mr. Alarid.
11 MR. ALARID: Well, Your Honour, I mean, again, it appears regular
12 on its face, and I think it could be you --
13 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please slow down. The French
14 booth really cannot follow. Thank you.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid, we are not with you on this one.
17 The points made by the Prosecutor are valid, in our view; and something
18 that occurs to me, personally, is the total lack of authentication. You
19 may, of course, call this person as an a witness in your case, should you
20 be called upon to present a case.
21 MR. ALARID: Well, and I agree, Your Honour. I mean, in all due
22 diligence, we do have to follow up on these leads when they come up. I
23 mean, I think that's very important, and that's why I was hoping at least
24 to tender it at this point, not for the weight, understanding the
25 limitations --
1 THE INTERPRETER: Counsel is kindly asked to slow down when
2 speaking. The interpreters cannot follow.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ... your
5 Any re-examination Mr. Cole -- sorry.
6 Mr. Cepic, you wish to --
7 MR. CEPIC: Just very few questions.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very few questions. I'm sorry.
9 MR. CEPIC: Thank you. May I?
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
11 Cross-examination by Mr. Cepic:
12 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir. My name is Djuro Cepic,
13 and I appear here for Sredoje Lukic as his Defence counsel.
14 Before I proceed to question, I wish to say on behalf of Sredoje
15 Lukic and all our Defence team that we sympathise greatly with all your
16 loss and suffering, the loss of your sons in particular, and other
17 members of your family.
18 Let me go back to just one part of your evidence. You said you
19 had known Djordje Lukic, and I have just a few more questions on that.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cole.
2 MR. COLE: Yes, sir. Your Honour, it's a redaction matter here,
3 and it may be preferable, if we're going to go into intimate details
4 about relationships with people at particular small locations. That it
5 be in private session.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, I see that.
7 Be careful, Mr. Cepic.
8 MR. CEPIC: Yes.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Would you bring that for redaction. It's to
10 the hotel, is it?
11 MR. COLE: Perhaps, if we could have it in redaction from line
12 19 down to where I lodged the objection.
13 Thank you, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, yes.
15 MR. CEPIC: Thank you. I'll try to do my best to avoid any
16 problem in that relation.
17 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, let us just go back to my question.
18 Along with you and that gentleman with whom you played bingo,
19 there was also a policeman from Visegrad, Sredoje Lukic, also playing
20 bingo at the same table; correct?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Of course, you know that Djordje Lukic had sons.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And you knew his son, the policeman?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. That was police officer Sredoje Lukic; correct?
2 A. As far as I'm concerned, he was a very good man.
9 MR. COLE: Yes, Your Honour. I'm sorry. Almost the totality of
10 the witness's evidence has been about a particular factory, so I think
11 we're going to have that redacted as well.
12 So that's page 81, line 1 and 2.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well, yes.
14 MR. CEPIC: Just to inform my learned friend, Mr. Cole, Visegrad
15 had 11 factories before the war.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, we will redact it ex abundante cautulae.
17 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Q. [Interpretation] And then, sir, you will agree with me that,
19 during the war, you had not seen this police officer Sredoje Lukic?
20 A. I did not.
21 Q. Thank you. Thank you very much, sir.
22 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] No further questions.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
24 Mr. Cole.
25 MR. COLE: Thank you, Your Honour, just briefly.
1 Re-examination by Mr. Cole:
2 Q. VG-017, in cross-examination by counsel for Milan Lukic, it was
3 suggested that you couldn't, from your vantage spot at either behind the
4 barrels or in the henhouse, see Ibrisim Memisevic at the Varda factory
5 being taken out by Milan Lukic. You understand what I'm saying there?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Did you see Ibrisim Memisevic being taken out of the factory by
8 Milan Lukic?
9 A. Yes.
10 MR. COLE: I have no further questions. Thank you, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Witness, that concludes your
12 evidence. We're grateful to you for coming to the Tribunal to give it.
13 You may now leave.
14 [The witness withdrew]
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: And are we in public session? Yes.
16 Mr. Alarid.
17 MR. ALARID: Just a brief point, Your Honour, because I did want
18 to clarify for the Court why I even tendered this statement to the
19 witness, of one the other persons. It's simply because on the memorandum
20 to the Court that the Prosecution tendered to all of us indicating the
21 witnesses that were going to be called this week and the documents that
22 were going to be used through them, or potentially used through them, the
23 witness statement of Mr. Ustamujic was identified as being used through
24 this witness.
25 So it was on that pre-set that I pursued the line of questioning
1 and actually requested the tendering of the statement because -- and
2 somehow they indicated the relevance by putting it in the list of
3 documents to be used through the witness.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Alarid.
5 I want to deal with some procedural matters.
6 First, you'll recollect that during the testimony of VG-142
7 yesterday, I indicated that the statements that had been challenged by
8 Mr. Alarid would be marked for identification pending the
9 cross-examination. No evidence was adduced in the cross-examination that
10 would bar their admission, and those statements will therefore be
12 Now, I move next to some other matters relating to the case as a
13 whole, and I want to give some dates.
14 The close of the Prosecution case and the disclosure required by
15 both Defence teams to the Prosecution are expected to take place on the
16 following dates: The close of the Prosecution case is anticipated to be
17 Thursday, 6th November; the 98 bis submissions will be presented on
18 Tuesday, 11th November; the Chamber's judgement on those submissions will
19 be rendered on Wednesday, 12th November.
20 Pursuant to Rule 66(A)(i), from Thursday, 13th November, both
21 Defence teams will permit the Prosecution to inspect and copy various
22 items in the custody or control of the Defence which are intended for use
23 by the Defence teams as evidence at trial. Pursuant to Rule 67(A)(ii),
24 on the 13th of November, both Defence teams will provide to the
25 Prosecution witness statements of all witnesses the Defence teams intend
1 to call at trial, and copies of all statements taken pursuant to Rules
2 92 bis, 92 ter, and 92 quater.
3 In view of the above, the Chamber varies its previous order
4 regarding the filing of Rule 65 ter (G) submissions by the Defence. Both
5 Defence teams will now file their submissions pursuant to this Rule on
6 the 13th of November.
7 In the event that the Defence of both accused are called upon to
8 present their case, on Thursday, 20th November, Sredoje Lukic will
9 present his case, will commence the presentation of his case.
10 The Chamber recalls that on the 15th of September, it made an
11 oral ruling in which it decided that, as a result of granting Milan
12 Lukic's request for a four-day sitting week and scheduling a two-week
13 break between the 13th and the 22nd of October, there would be no break
14 between the Prosecution and the Defence cases.
15 Milan Lukic has requested reconsideration or certification to
16 appeal this oral ruling on the basis that counsel needs more time in
17 order to adequately prepare his defence.
18 The Chamber considers that the Scheduling Order just presented
19 sufficiently addresses any need for more time to prepare Milan Lukic's
20 defence. In particular, it notes that Milan Lukic will not be required
21 to present his defence until after Sredoje Lukic.
22 The Chamber also considers that no clear error of reasoning has
23 been demonstrated, and, moreover, that it is not necessary to reconsider
24 the earlier decision to prevent an injustice. Furthermore, the grounds
25 for granting certification for appeal as set out in Rule 73 are not met.
1 This Chamber, therefore, denies the request for reconsideration
2 or certification to appeal.
3 Those are the matters I wanted to deal with, and you may now call
4 the next witness if there is one. No?
5 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the Prosecution has no other witnesses.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: In that event, the trial is adjourned until
8 Monday, the 27th of October. Use the time well, Mr. Alarid.
9 MR. ALARID: I'll try, Your Honour, I will.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: And Mr. Cepic.
11 MR. CEPIC: I'm already prepared.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.22 p.m.,
14 to be reconvened on Monday, the 27th day of
15 October, 2008, at 2.15 p.m.