1 Tuesday, 4 November 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 8.33 a.m.
5 [The witness entered court]
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Today, we'll sit until 10:00 is the first
7 sitting in. In that time we'll have the cross-examination of VG- --
8 Mr. Cepic Mr. Cross-examine.
9 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Microphone not activated]
11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the presiding judge, please.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: ... Alarid's cross-examination of the next
13 witness, so we'll begin now with Mr. Cepic's cross-examination.
14 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 WITNESS: WITNESS VG-24 [Resumed]
16 [Witness answered through interpreter]
17 Cross-examination by Mr. Cepic: [Continued]
22 MS. SARTORIO: Objection, Your Honour, that should be in closed
23 section or redacted now.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Closed session and a redaction.
25 MR. CEPIC: Actually haven't got my full question in the
1 transcript, so.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in private session.
3 [Private Session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Chamber]
11 Pages 3294-3303 redacted. Private session.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute, I understand the witness requires
8 a break for a medical reasons, so we'll adjourn shortly. Would
9 10 minutes be enough, Witness? Or do you need -- 10 minutes?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think I will see.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: The usher will let us know.
12 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, if I might just advise the Chamber that
13 the doctor and the nurse are on stand by should she need assistance, so
14 maybe if they can be requested.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: She is to have whatever medical assistance is
11 Pages 3305-3308 redacted. Private session.
23 [Open session]
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome, how long a break do you think this
25 witness will need?
1 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I'm not sure that I'm in a position to
2 really know. I know VWS were making arrangements to speak with her and
3 speak about all of those things. I think VWS might have the most recent
4 information. I will say this, Your Honour, my experience from last time,
5 She was actually quite strong the first few days and it seemed about the
6 third day that she started to show some signs of fatigue. My hope is
7 that she is strong today and can work vigorously throughout the day, but
8 VWS will have the most up to date information.
9 MR. ALARID: Your Honours, since there was a witness that was
10 going to be at the end of week, that the appeals Chamber said could be at
11 the end of the week, it seems we do have time in the schedule if the
12 witness needs to take breaks and we need to move this into tomorrow a
13 little bit.
14 [The witness entered court]
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, I remind you that you remain subject to
16 the -- I was saying that you remain subject to the declaration that you
17 had made previously. The declaration to speak the truth, the whole truth
18 and nothing but the truth. Yes, Mr. Alarid.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
20 WITNESS: ZEHRA TURJACANIN [Resumed]
21 [Witness answered through interpreter]
22 Cross-examination by Mr. Alarid: [Continued]
23 Q. Good morning, Ms. Turjacanin. Do you recall what we were
24 speaking about when you last left here?
25 A. Yes, I remember a few things.
1 Q. Well, I believe what we were talking about right as we left was
2 the murder that you witnessed of Hasan Brko, do you recall talking about
4 A. Yes, I do remember.
5 Q. And we were trying to go through the photograph and see if you
6 could recall where you saw this. Do you recall that?
7 A. I remember you showing me a picture of Visegrad.
8 Q. And so we could clarify it, 1D20-0022 could be brought on the
9 screen, please. And while we are waiting for that to come up, ma'am, I
10 need to ask you this, what happened? Why did you leave that day? We
11 were trying to get this finished.
12 A. I left because of medical reasons.
13 Q. Well, ma'am, and we can go into private session, if need be, but
14 I had aide like to question you as to what those issues were that we
15 couldn't complete this yesterday, because it's been some break, and I
16 need to ask some questions about the break. Could we go into private
17 session, Your Honour?
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, private session.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in private session.
20 [Private session]
11 Pages 3312-3316 redacted. Private session.
12 [Open session]
13 MR. ALARID:
14 Q. So again, ma'am, how long after the incidents that burned you
15 until you were able to get some real formal professional medical care, in
16 a hospital environment?
17 A. As I said, I received real treatment in Zenica.
18 Q. And Zenica, do they have a hospital there?
19 A. There is a large hospital there.
20 Q. And what were your dates of treatment at the hospital in Zenica?
21 A. Well, the major medical treatment that I received were to my face
22 and hands.
23 Q. No, understood, ma'am. I apologise. I'm talking about what were
24 the dates, like, were you in the hospital for a period of days, weeks?
25 Did you go back for follow-up visits, that kind of thing. Scheduling.
1 And I also want the dates of time periods so we can look at medical
3 A. I can't recall the dates when I was admitted to the Zenica
5 Q. Could you narrow it down to a month and a year?
6 A. And I stayed there for 20-odd days. And then I departed for
8 Q. So then let's get that chronology down. You were burned on
9 around June, end of June 1992; correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And how many months before you were able to spend those 20 days
12 in the Zenica hospital?
13 A. I did not understand this question.
14 Q. Well, I mean, how long, I mean, when did you get your treatment?
15 When did you spend those 20 days and again, I'm not asking for the exact
16 day of the week and date of the month, but it would be nice to know in
17 the general proximity of when you spent the time in the hospital?
18 A. Approximately half of October.
19 Q. And is that October 1992?
20 A. Yes, yes.
21 Q. And after that, was that when you left to Europe? After your
22 release from the hospital, you left your country?
23 A. After I left the Zenica hospital, I entered an ambulance at the
24 so-called European ambulance, and then I left Bosnia-Herzegovina.
25 Q. And from there where did you go next? Did you go immediately to
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And did you receive any medical treatment in France in follow-up
4 to your injuries?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. In what hospital?
7 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I'd ask that that information be done
8 in private session.
9 MR. ALARID: Of course.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Private session.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in private session.
12 [Private session]
11 Pages 3320-3321 redacted. Private session.
10 [Open session]
11 MR. ALARID:
12 Q. Now, ma'am, can you read this, please?
13 A. Middle school Ivo Andric 10.08.44 in Visegrad. Number 02-07-94,
14 Visegrad the 30th of the 9th, 2008.
15 Q. Now, ma'am, this is a confirmation regarding your years of
16 attendance at the middle school centre, the Hamid Besirevic in Visegrad,
17 is that where you went to school, ma'am?
18 A. Yes, I attended secondary school in Visegrad. I can't recall it
19 bearing the name of Ivo Andric, I can't recall that.
20 Q. If you look down in the confirmation in the body of it, it states
21 that with your date of birth 3/12/1962 that you finished three years of
23 A. Yes, let me read you that. It is true that I attended and
24 graduated from the secondary school for textiles. I cannot recall the
25 exact year 1981 or 1982.
1 Q. No, that would have been the school year that transcends the
2 wintertime period, so it basically means you would have left in 1928, and
3 you began attending in 1978, is that true?
4 A. No, I don't remember the dates. Believe me, it's been 16 and a
5 half years since, and I am unable to remember every single detail. This
6 was 16 and a half years ago.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid, we are going to take the break now
8 for 20 minutes.
9 --- Recess taken at 10.10 a.m.
10 --- On resuming at 10.32 a.m.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Alarid.
12 MR. ALARID:
13 Q. Ma'am, as we left on break, I was showing you what has been
14 marked as 1D210380, a confirmation from the school regarding your years
15 of attendance. Confirming that your date of birth is in 1962, wouldn't
16 it be true that 1978 to 1982 would be the regular years that you would
17 have attended the school?
18 A. I cannot hear well. I can't hear anything.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Try again, Mr. Alarid.
20 MR. ALARID:
21 Q. Is that better, ma'am?
22 A. Fine, thank you.
23 Q. I have to ask you the question again, ma'am, confirming that your
24 date of birth is in 1962, wouldn't it be true that 1978 to 1982 would be
25 the regular years that you would have attended that school?
1 A. Roughly speaking, yes.
2 MR. ALARID: I would move to the add milling into evidence this.
3 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the Prosecution would object as we know
4 Dr. Fagel and the other documents proffered by the Defence are now under
5 a cloud of suspicion. I can't agree that this document is an authentic
6 copy of the report of the school. I would want an opportunity to subject
7 this to some forensic examination. The witness has given answers with
8 respect to the underlying assertions here, and it is not necessary, I
9 believe at this stage to admit it, but I certainly object to the
10 admission of it in light of what we -- the report of Dr. Fagel that we
11 now have before us.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, just to the record is clear, I've seen
14 this document for the first time just before the break, I've never been
15 given a copy of it.
16 MR. ALARID: And Your Honour, as a proffer, Jelena Vasic who is
17 in the courtroom just got back from we'll call it her Bosnian mission and
18 she was able to receive a letter proving the years of attendance of both
19 Milan Lukic and Ms. Turjacanin. If ultimately we have to call a school
20 custodian, that's what we'll do.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: The Chamber sees no reason not to admit the
22 document. We'll admit it.
23 THE REGISTRAR: That would be Exhibit number 1D82, Your Honours.
24 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, can I then ask that I have an
25 opportunity to see the original so that I can have a forensic examiner
1 examine the document.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
3 MR. ALARID:
4 Q. Now, ma'am, isn't it true that your brother is born in 1968?
5 A. Yes, my brother was born in 1968.
6 Q. And if I can recall your earlier testimony or statements that
7 your brother was in hiding while you were in Bikavac, he was walled up in
8 a house; correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And, ma'am, isn't it true that you gave a previous statement that
11 you attended the funeral of a lady named Sevala Kustura?
12 A. I never said that.
13 Q. The friend's name is Kustura Asad, his mother's name is
14 Sevala Esad. It would be with an E, not an A.
15 A. I don't remember talking about that at all.
16 Q. You don't remember stating that this was a funeral in April while
17 the Uzice Corps were still in town?
18 MR. GROOME: Could we please identify the statement that counsel
19 is referring to.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Alarid, let us have the statement.
21 MR. ALARID: But to be honest, Your Honour, my client recalled
22 this of me when we were meeting on the break, and I didn't have time to
23 go through the binder and find it, but he seemed to believe that he read
24 in her earlier statements that one of the times pre-war that she saw him,
25 and if she answers no and I find something different, well, I'll be happy
1 with that.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid, that's not a proper way to proceed
3 if you are going to be relying on a statement, you should produce it.
4 MR. ALARID: Let me ask her the questions in terms of is it true.
5 That's maybe easier.
6 MR. GROOME: I believe she has answered those already.
7 MR. ALARID:
8 Q. Did you ever claim to have seen Milan Lukic with your brother at
9 a funeral?
10 A. I never said a thing about that. Where did you get that? This
11 information, that Milan Lukic and my brother were together at a ...
12 Q. I merely meant attending the same funeral, ma'am.
13 A. I really don't remember that.
14 Q. Fair enough. Now, could we put on the screen, this would be
15 1D10-2599. And the B/C/S version, excuse me, is 1D102604.
16 Now, ma'am, this is the statement, if you will, it's not a signed
17 statement, because isn't it true that you've never signed a statement
18 affirming what happened that night in Bikavac 1992?
19 A. Sir, can you ask me a direct question, what exactly do you want
20 me to say? I don't understand all these questions you are asking me
21 because they are -- don't quite make sense to me, and I'm having trouble
22 understanding them.
23 Q. Ma'am, isn't it true you've never signed a statement under oath
24 affirming your declarations about what happened in Visegrad and in
25 Bikavac in June 1992?
1 A. I no longer remember that.
2 Q. Could we please go to page 2 of the English version and very top
3 of page 3 of the B/C/S version. And the sentence I'd like you to start
4 reading at, ma'am, is the, it starts with "I know that the Visegrad
5 settlement of Kosovo Polje was burned like this and to the ground." That
6 is the first sentence, ma'am. It's the middle of the page in the English
7 version, Your Honour, second paragraph.
8 A. I don't remember that anymore.
9 Q. Well, ma'am, in this statement it appears that you believed that
10 there were three house burnings in your region before you experienced the
11 fire in Bikavac. And that's what I'd like to go through with you,
12 please. And basically it goes on to say: "I could not give the names of
13 the people who set these fires, but they were local Chetniks from
14 Visegrad. The first fire they then began burning people alive in their
15 houses. First in Koritnik village they burned 62 persons, among them who
16 I know was a three day old baby. Once witness survived from that house,
17 a man whose last name I believe is Menzilovic, but I do not know other
19 Do you recall believing that fire occurred or hearing that or
20 knowing of that?
21 A. Frankly, I do not remember that.
22 Q. Next, ma'am, it states that: "In Nova Mahala settlement
23 Pionirska Street, 65 persons were burned in a house. I know there were
24 two or three survivors, a mother and her son survived and another woman
25 who is somewhere in Medjuselje. Do you recall hearing or knowing or
1 stating about that?
2 A. All I can tell you about that house in Nova Mahala being burned
3 down or the one at Pionirska is this: People were burned alive. We could
4 see a house that was on fire, and we could hear human screams. That's
5 all I can tell you.
6 Q. And you could hear these screams from your home?
7 A. I didn't see people scream, I heard human screams.
8 Q. Could we bring back 1D20-0022. And just to be prepared to come
9 back and forth to this document and the picture, please.
10 Ma'am, when you are stating -- we went through this picture a
11 little bit before, I don't think we had any markings on it, but could you
12 see the smoke if you could hear the screams?
13 A. No, no, no.
14 Q. No. Okay. But do you know where Pionirska Street is, ma'am, on
15 the map? Can you identify it?
16 A. I have to explain something. When this house was burning, we
17 could see the flames rising from the house as well as smoke. We could
18 hear human screams. When I look at this photograph I'd be hard put to
19 pinpoint Pionirska Street, Nova Mahala or indeed Bikavac for your
21 Q. So you can't mark on this photograph where you believe you saw
22 the flames and the smoke from your home in Bikavac?
23 A. I can't. The scale here is very small. I can't be sure which
24 one is my house or indeed the house in Nova Mahala, but I can tell you
25 whose house at Nova Mahala this was. This was Adem Omeragic's house. It
1 was in Nova Mahala. There were people living there, this was at
2 Pionirska Street, and that's where people were burned alive.
3 Q. Could we please go back to the 1D102599 in the B/C/S version,
4 please. Same pages, page 3 in the B/C/S, page 2 in the English. Top of
5 the page, B/C/S.
6 Well, ma'am, that's what I was going to point out because
7 according to this, it appears that you recounted three fires, and the
8 last sentence I'll read you is:
9 "Two days prior to what happened to me on the 25 June 1992,
10 Chetniks burned 67 persons in a house in Glinica settlement, and only one
11 woman survived she is somewhere in Zepa. I know this happened in
12 Adem Omeragic's house."
13 Do you see that, ma'am?
14 A. Look, I have just told you about Adem Omeragic's house being
15 burned down.
16 Q. But according to this document, ma'am, it appears that your first
17 recounts of the situation, you were recounting three separate fires,
18 although I would agree they all appear to me, from what I know, to be the
19 same fire. And I was wondering what information you had at the time.
20 A. Well, I told you, didn't I, as much as I remember. If there is
21 something that I can no longer remember, I can hardly be expected to say
22 anything about it, can I?
23 Q. Well, then, just directly, ma'am, do you -- isn't it true though
24 that at your earliest recounting of these incidents you thought there
25 were three separate fires in the Visegrad area before yours involving
1 major casualties, such as 60 and 65 and 67 people?
2 A. I can no longer talk about how many people were there exactly. I
3 do know that many crimes were committed in Visegrad. Likewise, there are
4 many crimes that I can no longer discuss today simply because it has been
5 a very long time. I'm sorry, if anything, that I'm no longer able to
6 discuss these.
7 Q. That's fine, ma'am.
8 MR. ALARID: Your Honour, we would tender 1D10-2599 into
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit number 1D83.
12 MR. ALARID:
13 Q. Now, ma'am, first could we bring 1D21-0401. And actually, I
14 apologise, 1D210410. And B/C/S is 1D21-0415.
15 Now, ma'am, it is true your brother's date of birth is 09
16 November 1968?
17 A. I know that he was born in 1968 but I'm not certain about the 9th
18 of November.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid, may I interrupt you. Mr. Cepic, may
20 I ask how long you will be? I've been reviewing the examination-in-chief
21 of the witness, and I haven't observed much in it that might be of
22 interest to you in relation to your client.
23 MR. CEPIC: Your Honour, I -- it is quite difficult to say for me
24 at this moment, but maybe 20 minutes, but maybe one hour, depends of
25 answers because I would like to clarify some additional things.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well.
2 MR. CEPIC: Thank you.
3 MR. ALARID:
4 Q. And, ma'am, were you aware of your brother giving statements to
5 the ICTY back in 2001 and most recently as indicated on this statement
6 the 20th of August 2008?
7 A. I don't know about that.
8 Q. Do you communicate with your brother? Do you talk to him now?
9 A. No.
10 Q. When is the last time you have spoken with your brother?
11 A. I can no longer remember.
12 Q. Well, ma'am, it's my understanding that the night of the tragedy
13 when you were burnt, after you escaped, you went to warn your neighbours
14 and also tell your neighbours to break out your brother from where he was
15 hiding, so that everyone could flee. Is that true?
16 A. That I can confirm.
17 Q. And so as far as you know, ma'am, on the date of the fire which
18 you state is June 27th; correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And while your brother was walled up, did you used to bring him
21 food every day?
22 A. I'm sorry, I didn't get that.
23 Q. When your brother was walled up and in hiding, did you used to
24 take care of him and bring him food every day?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Could we go to the bottom of that first page there, please. Both
3 Ma'am I'd like you to look at the signature of your brother. Do
4 you recognise your brother's signature having given a statement to
5 Mr. Philip Caine on August 20th, 2008?
6 A. I cannot confirm that this is indeed my brother's signature.
7 Q. Can we go to page 2, please, on both sheets.
8 Ma'am, I'm reading to you paragraph 2 of his statement which
10 "I did not socialize with Milan outside of school. I lived in
11 the town of Bikavac, and he lived in the town of Rujiste. Maybe we had
12 coffee together once or twice during school holidays."
13 Do you see that, paragraph 2?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Ma'am, would you -- isn't it true that this disputes your
16 accounts of smoking often with your brother and Milan outside of the
19 MR. GROOME: Objection Your Honour, that's not the witness's
20 testimony. The effect of the witness's testimony was that she saw her
21 brother and Milan Lukic smoking during school breaks when she went back
22 to have a cigarette as well. It wasn't outside of school hours, it was
23 during breaks between classes in school.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, thank you, Mr. Groome. Please pay more
25 attention to the evidence, Mr. Alarid.
1 MR. ALARID: Your Honour, I take exception with this Prosecutor
2 telling me what she said two months ago. To be honest, I can't remember
3 as well, but I believe that we had testimony involving them smoking after
4 school or on breaks between school, and this simply flies in the face of
5 that. And other than that, I think the Prosecutor's comments considering
6 that the translator is translating and that Mr. Groome noticed that with
7 a different witness, I think that is tantamount to injecting some of his
8 ideas to the witness.
9 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, Mr. Alarid has ample time to get the
10 references of the transcript, I will now look for them, but I did -- was
11 not aware he was going to characterize the evidence in this way. I
12 suggest that he cite the specific page and line number so that we can all
13 look along and agree or disagree with this characterization of the
14 evidence. 11.00.29.
15 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: At this moment I'm looking at my own
16 notes of that day, and I see precisely what Mr. Groome was saying, that
17 it was in school. My own notes. I may be wrong, but in my own notes
18 but --
19 MR. ALARID: No, I agree with you Your Honour, I think it was in
20 school on the breaks or whatever when kids smoke, I am assuming, but ...
21 Q. Ma'am, clearly your brother was not stating that he was having
22 cigarettes with Milan Lukic; correct?
23 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, again I must interrupt, with the
24 passage that was read from the statement said, I did not socialize with
25 Milan out of school. This statement that was taken in August of 2001
1 begins with "I have been asked to clarify certain matters in a statement
2 that I made to the ICTY investigator on the 25th of January 2001." In
3 that statement, so this has to be looked at in conjunction with that
4 statement, it is very clear that her brother is saying, I knew Milan
5 Lukic very well. We attended the same class for three years, and that is
6 on the first page of that statement. So it's a mischaracterization of
7 what the evidence is about her brother and to put to her in this way is
8 highly objectionable.
9 MR. ALARID: Well, Your Honour, I'm observing the time crunch
10 that I'm under, so I would love to go through the first statement, the
11 second statement, and every paragraph because I agree. And I think we
12 are arguing semantics about in school and during school. That's, to me,
13 I just mix that up.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid, constraints of time do not allow you
15 to mischaracterize the evidence.
16 MR. ALARID: I don't believe I'm mischaracterising the evidence,
17 Your Honour. I think it will come out in the end.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Proceed.
19 MR. ALARID: Could we just introduce the witness statement at
20 2001 per the Prosecution's urging. 1D21-0401, B/C/S version, 1D21-0406.
21 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I've no objection to these statements
22 being admitted as long as they are both admitted. And I suggest that we
23 move to statements of this witness and not other witnesses.
24 MR. ALARID: Well, let's move to paragraph 4, the one we've got
25 in front of us.
1 Q. I'd like you to read paragraph 4 of your brother's statement,
2 last sentence of that short paragraph.
3 I'm sorry, I didn't mean to switch the -- even though we were
4 admitting the last one, I didn't mean to switch it to the next one. The
5 2001. I'd prefer to stay on 2008, the most recent. Can you see
6 paragraph 4, ma'am?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. In this paragraph your brother says: "There was never a time
9 when Zehra and I were together and saw Milan Lukic."
10 A. I confirm that as well.
11 Q. Now we can move to 1D21-0401, and we would ask to move into
12 admission 1D21-0410.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we admit it.
14 THE REGISTRAR: That will become Exhibit 1D84, Your Honours.
15 MR. ALARID:
16 Q. Having read that paragraph, ma'am, isn't it true that your
17 brother states specifically: "I know that Zehra did not know Milan Lukic
18 before the war"?
19 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, how can she know what her brother knew,
20 one, because it's his mind or his thought process, ans two, because she's
21 already testified. She hasn't spoken to him in many, many years.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, that's a nonsensical question, Mr. Alarid.
23 MS. MARJANOVIC:
24 Q. Ma'am, why don't you speak to your brother?
25 A. That's none of your business. I wanted to say this, why are you
1 asking all these questions which do not concern me? I've come here to
2 this Tribunal to say what happened to me and what Milan Lukic did to me,
3 to me. To me and my family.
4 Q. Well, ma'am, isn't it true your brother came back and took you
5 out of Visegrad; correct?
6 A. It's true that my brother came back and took me out of Visegrad
7 after I had been burnt.
8 Q. And so he took care of you for quite some time, helping you
9 escape that, didn't he?
10 A. Wait a moment, sir, until I've explained something to you. After
11 my brother came back to Visegrad to take me out to Okrugla which is 10
12 kilometres approximately away from Visegrad. That took one night. When
13 I came to the house at Okrugla there were many people there, women,
14 children, men. My brother no longer took care of me, he had some other
15 tasks to attend to, and I was looked after by the women there. I believe
16 now this matter is clear.
17 Q. Did you tell your story to your brother? Did you share with him
18 your trials and tribulations of the fire?
19 A. I told my brother what I had gone through when we came to
20 Medjedja. We did not have much time during my stay at Okrugla to talk
21 and discuss things.
22 Q. Well, ma'am, the reason I say this is because I find it strange
23 that in neither statement there's not an account of your brother, one,
24 hearing your story and then saying what you told him about your burning.
25 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, how can she possibly answer that
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Next question, Mr. Alarid. Don't answer that
3 question. You can make that comment to us later on.
4 MR. ALARID:
5 Q. Now, I'd like you to go to -- we'd like to go to on the last page
6 of the English version, second to the last sentence, or excuse me,
7 paragraph starting "we decided to leave Visegrad..."
8 A. I cannot tell you anything about this matter. I know that my
9 brother did not leave Visegrad. He stayed at the new house he was walled
10 in under the bricks.
11 Q. Well, ma'am, according -- that's what I wanted you to bring
12 together for us. Is simply that, according to your earlier testimony,
13 you fed your brother every day, and so I would assume you would know he
14 is walled up in the new house; correct?
15 A. Yes, I said that my brother was walled in, we did that, we walled
16 him in with the bricks, and he was there with my relative Hazim. There
17 were two men in the house. We brought them food, we fed them.
18 Q. And yet, you follow that up with that after your tragedy and that
19 you were burned, you specifically told people to go dig him out of the
20 wall ...
21 A. Correction, if I may. His name is not Hazim, but Hasib.
22 Q. And ma'am, then I ask you again, though, why do you follow up
23 with the fact that you fed him, and yet specifically after you were
24 burned you state that you told people to go dig your brother out of the
25 wall and free him because the Chetniks were attacking, and they burned
2 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I'm getting confused this is not her
3 statement where she has said this about the 26th.
4 MR. ALARID: No, correct.
5 MR. GROOME: How could she possibly know?
6 MR. ALARID: Because she fed him that day.
7 MR. GROOME: The question is is whether her evidence on the
8 record now is that she fed him that day. If Mr. Alarid wants to call her
9 brother as a witness to say that that's not the case, then he's free to
10 do that. What can she say about a statement that he gave that she was
11 never a party to and never discussed with him?
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid, the strategy that you are using,
13 that tactic is not helpful.
14 MR. ALARID: Why not, Judge?
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Because you are perpetually putting to the
16 witness questions that relate to her brother's statement.
17 MR. ALARID: I guess, call it weird, but if my sister came and
18 told me I was burned in a house and who did, they would be trying to kill
19 me, not to kill him. And I would be telling anyone that was willing to
20 hear what was going on, and I find it really weird she says she told her
21 family to go dig him out on the 27th after she was burned, yet in his
22 statement, he says we decided to leave on the 26th.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid there's no jury here.
24 MR. ALARID: Not about a jury, Your Honour, it's about the truth.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: There's no jury here.
1 MR. ALARID: It is not about the jury, Your Honour. I expect you
2 to look at --
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: You refer to your national jurisdiction, there's
4 no jury here. There's no need to make a speech.
5 MR. ALARID: That is wasn't about my national jurisdiction. That
6 was about me personally. That was about me personally.
7 THE INTERPRETER: Would the speakers kindly observe the pause
8 between their speeches.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let us proceed with the cross-examination, and
10 you have another 15 minutes.
11 MR. ALARID:
12 Q. Ma'am, when you were travelling through the forest, did your
13 brother did with you to Medjedja?
14 A. Before I answer this question, I have to go back again to my
15 house to explain the matter of the house and the bricks, et cetera. I
16 confirm that my brother was together with my relative walled in. We
17 could open that from the outside but could not be opened from the inside
18 by my brother because he was walled in. And this is why I asked my
19 neighbours while they were leaving Visegrad to let my brother and my
20 relative out of that space so that they could join them. And now,
21 please, ask me your next question.
22 Q. My next question is, did you feed him on the morning of the 27th?
23 A. Maybe on the 27th, I don't know. Of course he had to eat on the
24 morning of the 27th. We were burnt on that evening at around 8.30 p.m.
25 Q. And so, ma'am, if you were burnt on the evening of the 27th, you
1 communicated with your brother sometime during the day from the morning
2 to the afternoon of the 27th, isn't that true?
3 A. Of course we had contact, but it's not true that we had
4 maintained that contact throughout the day.
5 Q. But you know he was walled up on the 27th until you had your
6 family release him; correct?
7 A. I know that he was walled up there throughout that period before
8 he was released from there on that evening.
9 Q. 1D21-0381, please.
10 Ma'am, looking at this photograph, do you recognise this area
11 around Visegrad? And it might be helpful to go to page 2 of this
12 document --
13 A. Is it ridiculous for you to show me this picture knowing that the
14 whole of Bosnia-Herzegovina looks like this.
15 Q. Just turn to the second page, please, and maybe the witness can
16 orientate herself. Do you recognise this canyon and valley, river
18 A. These are cliffs and in the Drina River valley.
19 Q. And wouldn't it be true that for your journey to Medjedja you had
20 to traverse this terrain?
21 A. We did not take this route.
22 Q. Describe the route you took briefly, please, ma'am. And I'd ask
23 these to be admitted into evidence.
24 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, do we the only evidence we have about
25 these is this looks like anywhere in Bosnia.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: The seconds one I think she has identified
3 MR. GROOME: What is the relevance of a canyon on the Drina to
4 her testimony. She says it's not any route that she took.
5 MR. ALARID: It will be part of my final argument.
6 MR. GROOME: I believe Defence counsel is required to give some
7 showing of relevance before -- I don't believe that I'll use it in my
8 final argument is a foundation for introduction of evidence.
9 MR. ALARID: I'll give a further proffer. Simply put the witness
10 has testified that she took a five-day journey with the burns that, I
11 think, we've seen in other video and photographic evidence, and I'm
12 simply trying to establish that this is the terrain and the nature of the
13 terrain that she made that journey.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll admit the photograph which is on the
15 screen now. Not the one which was there before.
16 MR. ALARID: And, Your Honour, I think it was -- our crew had
17 attempted a slight panorama to the left, but I understand your point.
18 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit number 1D85, Your Honours.
19 MR. ALARID:
20 Q. Now, ma'am, isn't it true that you testified that immediately
21 after you were burned and you told people to flee the area, you went to
22 the Serbian authorities so they could "kill" you?
23 A. That's correct.
24 Q. And they did not kill you, they put you in a home and they
25 brought a doctor; correct?
1 A. That's correct.
2 Q. And when first you approached these Serbians, you did not tell
3 them about the Bikavac fire, correct, you told them a different story?
4 A. I don't recall that anymore.
5 Q. Isn't it true that you told the doctor and the Serbians that you
6 had had an accident, that you had had epilepsy and you had had an
7 accident lighting a cigarette on a stove?
8 A. Sir, I confirmed that I do not suffer from epilepsy, nor do I
9 suffer from any other ailment that would preclude my testimony at this
10 Tribunal. I can submit all medical evidence to that effect.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Another five minutes, Mr. Alarid. If you need
13 MR. ALARID: Your Honour, before I get too far afield, the 2001
14 statement, I believe that was tendered into evidence, but we did not
15 receive a number. 1D21-0401, and the photograph 1D20-0022 was the
16 photograph of Bikavac.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: We admitted those already.
18 MR. ALARID: I believe so, I just didn't hear a number.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm asking whether -- if we haven't admitted
20 them, then we will admit them.
21 THE REGISTRAR: The statement bearing number 1D21-0401 will
22 become Exhibit 1D86, and photograph number 1D20-0022 will become Exhibit
24 MR. ALARID:
25 Q. And could we have P66 please, brought on the screen. Page 5 of
1 10 in English?
2 Ma'am, I'd like you to look in Bosnian just the first few
3 sentences where it shows ZT for Zehra Turjacanin. Just read that out,
5 A. I never stated what you just showed to me.
6 Q. Ma'am, this is in a recorded video that was transcribed and
7 tendered into evidence by the Prosecution.
8 A. I would like to see that video for us to listen to it together so
9 -- before I can confirm that I said -- that I know that I never in my
10 life claimed that I had epilepsy or do I have that illness right now.
11 Q. Well, ma'am, is it true that you told Serbians and the doctor
12 that you would burn yourself with a gas cylinder attempting to light a
13 cigarette, and accident so to speak?
14 A. I do not recall that.
15 Q. You don't recall telling Serbians that you were accidently
17 A. No, no, no.
18 Q. But you didn't tell them that you were burned in the fire in
19 Bikavac; correct? You didn't tell them who the perpetrators were;
21 A. Believe me, I do not recall what exactly I tell them, but I do
22 know one thing, my eyes were closing up at the time from the burns that I
23 suffered at that house.
24 Q. Ma'am --
25 A. I was -- I had burns on my arms, and I physically was harmed
1 knowing what had happened, and the only thing I wanted from those people
2 was some humanitarian aid and assistance. I wanted those Chetniks to
3 kill me so that my suffering would be brought to an end that night.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: This has to be the last question, Mr. Alarid.
5 MR. ALARID: I respectfully ask for more time, Your Honour
6 there's so much to go through. We haven't even gotten to her walking
7 into the house, going into the fire. She -- I mean --
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid, you have to manage your
9 cross-examination better. The Prosecutor had 2 hours and 10 minutes and
10 you have had 2 and a half hours.
11 MR. ALARID: I would request, one, that the Court instruct the
12 witness to answer my question which was did she tell the soldiers
13 something other, such as she had had an accident. She didn't directly
14 answer the question. Then I would like to ask a short series of
15 questions if I'm being limited by the Court, although I would take
16 exception for the record. I would like to ask her a series of questions
17 regarding the garage door photograph. I can't remember the exact P, I'm
18 looking at my notes, maybe the Prosecution could help me, but there was a
19 single photograph of the garage door that was alleged to have been put in
20 the door.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid, put to the witness the last
23 MR. ALARID:
24 Q. Ma'am, isn't it true you told Serbian soldiers and the Serbian
25 doctor that you had had an accident and burned yourself with a stove
1 attempting to light a cigarette?
2 A. I'm telling you now and here that I do not recall saying that.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid, I'd allow you to put to the witness
4 the question relating to the photograph.
5 MR. ALARID: Thank you, Your Honour. And only because I mixed up
6 my notes from the earlier direct examination, I would like some
7 assistance in terms of which -- oh, P38. Found it. P138. Did I say it
8 incorrectly? I'm sorry.
9 Q. And in this photograph, you made a mark of the window you climbed
10 out of. These doors appear to be double doors.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome.
12 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, again the record is -- and I'm looking
13 at transcript page 2320, line number 8 to 11. My question was: "Could I
14 ask that we zoom in on the garage door. Is this door similar to the door
15 that was blocking the doorway on the night of the fire?" And the answer
16 was "Yes, that's exactly right. The testimony was that it's similar,
17 it's not the exact door which it sounds like that is what is being put to
18 the witness now.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let us here the question that is being put.
20 MR. ALARID:
21 Q. Well, I understand the Prosecution's question was similar, but I
22 felt from the tempo of the answer that it was more the same, so maybe the
23 witness can clarify that on cross-examination.
24 Ma'am, do you know whether -- from a similarity perspective, is
25 it your testimony that this door is in the photograph is the same build,
1 type, and design as the door that was blocking the entrance to the
2 Bikavac house?
3 A. It looks like the garage doors of Meho Aljic's house.
4 Q. So looking like the garage doors, other than the possibility that
5 it is not the exact same ones, can we just agree that they would
6 otherwise be the same?
7 A. Those doors were dark red. They were made of metal, had openings
8 towards the top of the door, approximately 60 centimetres in height.
9 Q. And so thinking of these doors being moved and blocking the
10 entrance to Mr. Aljic's house, were they taken off separately or
12 MR. GROOME: Moved from where? What evidence is there -- I don't
13 believe the witness has given any evidence about where they were moved
14 from or knows anything about that. These are doors on another house, not
15 -- the house that was in the fire has been destroyed.
16 MR. ALARID: Your Honour, the testimony was that garage doors
17 were taken off from somewhere and put in front of the entrance in which
18 Ms. Turjacanin entered that house. So they were taken off somewhere,
19 they were moved. She just states that is they look like Mr. Aljic's
20 garage door, let's assume they are from his old garage, I don't know, I
21 to be honest don't care. I want to know where they were, how they were
22 put up, how long it took to put up, were they up, were the windows up,
23 were the windows down, were they on their side, were they taken off
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, are you able to answer the question?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sir, when I left the house in
2 which I had been in a fire and my body burning, I turned around to see
3 what had been keeping me from taking my small sister with me on my way
4 out. At that point I turned around, and I saw the garage door blocking
5 the way out, and here I include the balcony door and windows as well.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's it, Mr. Alarid. I'm not allowing any
7 more cross-examination by you. Your cross-examination is at an end.
8 Mr. Cepic, 5 minutes, and then we'll take the break.
9 MR. ALARID: Exception, Your Honour.
10 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 Cross-examination by Mr. Cepic:
12 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, madam. Good day, madam. I wish
13 I were able to ask you questions in French but unfortunately, Bonjour,
14 madam, is the only thing I'm able to say, and my wife very much
15 criticizes me for that. Please allow me to introduce myself. First, I'm
16 Djuro Cepic. I am an attorney at law, I represent Sredoje Lukic. Can
17 you hear me, madam?
18 A. I hear you all right. Please go ahead.
19 Q. Thank you. On behalf of my client Sredoje Lukic, on behalf of
20 all the members of our Defence team, I want to express to you my
21 condolences for the loss of your family members. Under the cruel and
22 dreadful circumstances that prevailed, we have a lot of understanding for
23 all the suffering that you were made to go through, madam.
24 Have you heard me, madam?
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, she has, continue.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hear you all right. Just
2 press on, please.
3 MR. CEPIC:
4 Q. [Interpretation] I would like to take you back to a time that was
5 a much happier and much more carefree time. Therefore I will ask you
6 several questions about that. You went to a secondary school for textile
7 production; right?
8 A. Yes, I completed that secondary school.
9 Q. Thank you very much, madam. It's been quite a long time, over 20
10 years. Over 25, as a matter of fact. Do you perhaps remember your
11 schoolmates or your classmates from that period?
12 A. Yes, I do remember the girls who were my schoolmates.
13 Q. Here, let me ask you about a couple. Do you remember the girls
14 from Zupa such as Mira Lipovac?
15 A. Yes, I do remember Mira Lipovac.
16 Q. Do you perhaps remember Koviljka Bozic?
17 A. Sorry?
18 Q. Kolviljka Bozic?
19 A. Perhaps. Perhaps. It would take me some time to think back and
20 try and remember the faces.
21 Q. I believe you will have no trouble remembering the next one.
22 Nevenka Ivanovic, do you remember her from Zupa?
23 A. Yes, I do remember her as well.
24 Q. Do you perhaps remember that girl marrying a policeman from
25 Visegrad, spending a total of 15 days with that policeman before that
1 policeman ended up marrying a different girl? You did say something
2 about that at a later stage?
3 A. No, sorry, I don't remember that.
4 Q. Let me try to jog your memory. These days were much more care
5 free and beautiful than the present ones, I believe you'll agree with me.
6 Do you remember a neighbour of yours, police officer Izet Karaman and his
7 wife Rabija who used to work as a shopkeeper?
8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could Mr. Cepic please be
9 asked to move closer to the microphone while speaking or speak up. Thank
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic, the interpreter is asking you to move
12 closer to the microphone or to speak up.
13 MR. CEPIC: My apologies. I apologise to interpreters, I will
14 try to do my best.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I remember Izet Karaman he is a
16 neighbour of mine, I remember his wife Rabija as well.
17 MR. CEPIC:
18 Q. [Interpretation] She was a shopkeeper; right?
19 A. Yes, that's what she was.
20 Q. What about if you think back to the time when you socialized with
21 those people or visited them, did you go and visit Izet Karaman? Did you
22 spend any time with him in terms of socializing?
23 A. No, we didn't socialize. I saw the man quite often, our paths
24 would cross, he was on his way to work, I was on my way back, and so on
25 and so forth, but I can't say that we socialized specifically.
1 Q. Let me ask you about someone who is the same age s you and who
2 was a work mate of Izet Karaman. Do you perhaps remember his colleague
3 and friend Sredoje Lukic, a police officer who was the same age as you.
4 He would often visit Izet and he married Nevenka Ivanovic, their marriage
5 lasted a mere 15 days.
6 A. No, I simply don't remember that man visiting. After all, I
7 wasn't actually seeking to find out who my neighbours were receiving
8 visits by and who not, so I had other things on my mind and other
9 commitments that I was far more into, as it were.
10 Q. Crystal clear, madam. I fully understand. But perhaps you could
11 try hard and think back, she was a schoolmate after all, Nevenka
12 Ivanovic, and her short-lived marriage. Policeman Sredoje Lukic from
13 Rujiste who was married to Nevenka Ivanovic for a fortnight, maybe now
14 you are better able to remember, madam?
15 A. Sir, I was Nevenka Lukic's schoolmate for a single year, and I
16 failed that year, as a matter of fact. She pressed on with her education
17 and I had to go back to that same grade losing touch. I don't know what
18 became of her later on.
19 Q. Your brother in his statement as we recently saw pointed out that
20 he knew Sredoje Lukic and that he never set eyes on him throughout the
22 A. Sir, I can hardly be expected to tell you anything about what my
23 brother may or may not have said. I didn't follow my brother around. My
24 brother didn't follow me around. He has no clue what I was doing when we
25 weren't together, nor indeed I know what he was doing while we weren't
2 Q. That's crystal clear, madam, I hear, you I hear you loud and
4 MR. CEPIC: Is this the appropriate time for the break.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, how long will you be?
6 MR. CEPIC: Maybe half an hour, 40 minutes.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Are you going to re-exam?
8 MR. GROOME: I may have one question, Your Honour. Nothing more
9 than that.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll break for 20 minutes.
11 --- Recess taken at 11.40 a.m.
12 --- On resuming at 12.02 p.m.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Cepic.
14 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I kindly ask court usher to
15 bring to the witness [indiscernible] sheet. Thank you.
16 Q. [Interpretation] Madam, are you tired? All right. Madam, I'll
17 forge ahead with my questions. I'll try to ask you as few questions a
18 possible in order to get through this as quickly as possible. I just
19 want to know whether you are tired.
20 A. [No interpretation]
21 Q. Madam, can you hear me?
22 A. Yes, I can.
23 Q. Are you tired?
24 A. A little bit.
25 Q. I'll try to reduce the number of questions for you. I would like
1 now to have 0306-5578.
2 This is your statement, madam, on our screens. The one you
3 provided in 1992. More specifically, 30th of July 1992, 1400 hours. Can
4 we please have page 2, but I don't want it to be shown for the benefit of
5 the public. Can we scroll down, please.
6 I know that your health at the time was particularly poor, when I
7 look at this statement, I see that two witnesses were there. Number 1
8 and number 2. You can see their names there.
9 MR. CEPIC: Can question go into private session.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Private session.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in private session.
12 [Private session]
11 Pages 3353-3355 redacted. Private session.
15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
16 12.35 p.m. to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 5th
17 day of November 2008, at 8.50 a.m.