Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3700

 1                           Tuesday, 2 December 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 8.54 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I understand that the parties have some matters

 6     to raise.  Who's first?  Mr. Ivetic.

 7             MR. IVETIC:  I guess I can begin.  I may be the only one with

 8     preliminary matters today, Your Honour.  I just wanted to report back on

 9     several matters.  First of all, we did file the two filings yesterday

10     that Your Honour had suggested, so you ought to now have those so you can

11     have the full picture and ability to see what I was laying out in court

12     yesterday.  I have spoken with both of the witnesses who were scheduled

13     for this week and have obtained the precise details of why they're

14     unavailable.  The first, who is an attorney in Belgrade, is engaged on a

15     trial that he thought he could try to continue but he did not obtain a

16     continuance and therefore is engaged as an attorney rendering his

17     professional services in another trial that is ongoing this week.  The

18     other --

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Just a minute.

20             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  He's engaged in a trial.  He tried to --

22             MR. IVETIC:  Continue the trial.

23             JUDGE ROBINSON:  -- obtain a postponement.

24             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  He wasn't successful.  When he was -- when he

Page 3701

 1     was asked to be a witness, I mean, were you aware of that?

 2             MR. IVETIC:  I was not.  I was not, Your Honour.  I was not,

 3     Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Well, then, you should have.  I mean, if he's an

 5     attorney, and he's going to be a witness, I mean, why would you put him

 6     down to testify without finding out about his availability?  Is this the

 7     first time that you're learning that he would be engaged in another

 8     trial?

 9             MR. IVETIC:  No, Your Honour.  Attorneys have --

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Because that's not proper management.

11             MR. IVETIC:  Attorneys do have trials all the time, Your Honour.

12     But with the --

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, but when you put him down first as a

14     witness for this week, that should have been an inquiry.  Are you free to

15     testify in the trial on such and such a date?  The attorney says yes, so

16     that that must mean that he's not engaged in another trial, you know.  So

17     it leads me to wonder whether this is something new, you know, whether he

18     wasn't aware from the very beginning that he was engaged in a trial or

19     whether he's simply disrespectful of these proceedings.  That would not

20     be acceptable.

21             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, attorneys have trials all the time.  In

22     my jurisdiction where I come from, and I know you don't want to hear

23     about jurisdictions, but have you to understand real life.  These

24     proceedings are not taking place outside of real life.  Witnesses have

25     lives.  Witnesses have professional obligations.  Things change.  The

Page 3702

 1     schedule changes very frequently.  With the time-frame that we have in

 2     this case --

 3             JUDGE ROBINSON:  But, you see, you have not given me the proper

 4     explanation.  What I'm saying to you is that when you put him down as a

 5     witness to appear in this trial on a particular date, I take it to mean

 6     that he was free, but you have not said to me that since that time, some

 7     commitment has arisen.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, when we have to file things for this

 9     court, we have to do them by the Thursday.  I remind you again that we

10     had a week, approximately, between the filing of the 65 ter and the

11     filing of the witnesses for this week.  During that week, my client tried

12     to contact one of our witnesses to see if he was available.  The

13     Prosecution then issued a Rule 64 warning, and he was not allowed to call

14     anyone apart from myself here in the Hague, to talk with anyone for

15     almost a full week.  He had to go on a hunger strike to try and get his

16     rights back.  We finally got his rights back, and now we ask you, who can

17     he call to find out whether they're available?  Because people are

18     intimidating our witnesses on the ground, so they have to have contact

19     with him to know that the people that are contacting them are legitimate

20     people.  I was supposed to go on the terrain, as I mentioned yesterday.

21     I can't do that with this -- under this atmosphere.

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Don't make wild allegations.

23             MR. IVETIC:  About what?

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Of intimidation.  If you have -- that's a

25     serious allegation.

Page 3703

 1             MR. IVETIC:  That's a serious allegation, and it's based upon

 2     facts that I have, facts that I've talked with people.  We have

 3     intimidation, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  If you have the facts, bring them to the Court,

 5     bring them to us.

 6             MR. IVETIC:  We will, Your Honour.  We will, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  What about the other witness?

 8             MR. IVETIC:  The other witness, that was the individual from

 9     Austria.  He just started working for a leasing company and during the

10     probationary employment period he cannot take days off with less than

11     several weeks' notice.  He had one week notice between the time-frame

12     when we sent him the filing and said that we were listing him as a

13     witness for these proceedings.  And again, these were the two witnesses

14     that we believed we could file because we knew that they had passports,

15     we knew they had come to The Hague previously and were not of the

16     witnesses that we might have to strike from the list to meet the Court's

17     compliance with the 45 witnesses quota that was given to us, but again,

18     these are all factors that occur in a trial, that occur in a trial that

19     is not happening in a vacuum.  You have to take things into account.  You

20     have to take the outside world into account, people's personal lives,

21     people's professional lives --

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Slow down, please.

23             MR. IVETIC:  [Previous translation continues] ... by outside

24     factors outside of their control.  This last week was completely outside

25     of our control.  We did not --

Page 3704

 1             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Again, the same question would arise.

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Can you please slow down.  It's really

 3     impossible to interpret.  Thank you very much.

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  The same question would arise as to whether when

 5     this witness was put down as a witness --

 6             MR. IVETIC:  We thought he could attend and he thought he could

 7     attend.  When he went to his employer, he found out that he could not

 8     take days off.  That's the problem with this witness.

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  That's an inquiry that should have been made

10     before.

11             MR. IVETIC:  Again, Your Honour, but the time -- you're not

12     taking, I think, proper account of the time period involved, Your Honour,

13     with all the other things that we had to do during the short time period

14     that we had for this case.  We had to put together the 65 ter list.  We

15     had to start responding to the allegations of the Prosecution on various

16     levels.  I've been doing e-mails --

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Slow down, please.

18             MR. IVETIC:  [Previous translation continues] ... basic

19     information.

20             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpretation will cease.

21             MR. IVETIC:  I apologize.  I'm getting emotional.

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Don't get too excited.

23             MR. IVETIC:  I agree.

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I'm just saying that in the ordinary course of

25     events, that would be the first inquiry to make of a witness who is

Page 3705

 1     employed, whether his employer will allow him to attend court.  That's

 2     the first inquiry to be made.  But I just want to let you know that I

 3     know that there are difficulties in obtaining witnesses.  I worked as a

 4     Crown counsel in my country, and I had problems with judges, and I can

 5     tell you a very short story that in Jamaica Crown counsel was always

 6     blamed for the absence of witnesses, and there's this particular judge,

 7     who was very, very stern.  Trial was set to start.  Prosecution witness

 8     is not available.  And as usual, the judge turned on Crown counsel and

 9     said, Mr. Brown, where are the witnesses?  This Crown counsel who was

10     actually from Barbados, not Jamaica, said, My Lord, when I woke up this

11     morning and turned in my bed, I did not see any of them.

12             So I'm very familiar with the problems relating to procuring

13     witnesses, but witnesses must appreciate that this is an international

14     tribunal established by the United Nations.  It is not a social club.

15             MR. IVETIC:  I agree.  I agree.

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  And when they are scheduled to attend, they have

17     an obligation to attend, and they will only be excused if good cause is

18     shown, and the last sanction which the Trial Chamber has and which will

19     only be used as a very last measure, if there is no good cause for the

20     witness to attend, is that that witness's time can be counted against the

21     time allocated to the Defence and the number of witnesses.  So you must

22     always have a good cause for a witness not showing up.  We will show you

23     the same consideration, give you the same leniency that we gave the

24     Prosecution, but it is not a good start --

25             MR. IVETIC:  I agree.

Page 3706

 1             JUDGE ROBINSON:  -- that your first two witnesses are

 2     unavailable, Mr. Ivetic.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  I know, Your Honour, and I hope that once we have

 4     time to go out on a train, meet with these people, then we will -- once

 5     we get started, we will have a larger group of witnesses to choose from

 6     for a week; and therefore, if one is unavailable, we can move them to the

 7     end of the week, put another one forward, et cetera.  Once we have a

 8     larger pool of witnesses to work with in a given week, then I think a lot

 9     of these problems with dissipate.  The main problem is we only have these

10     two witnesses that we were able to put down for this week and both of

11     them are unavailable.

12             To also give more information about the last matter that I had

13     for today, I talked with Mr. Alarid yesterday and then I did also verify

14     his plane ticket here, and I misread it yesterday.  He's actually

15     returning on the morning of Thursday, December the 4th, at 11.40 a.m.,

16     although the flight does leave the 3rd of December, I had misread it as

17     saying he was coming here the evening of the 3rd, but it's actually the

18     4th when he's arriving, Your Honours, and that's a matter that I know I

19     need to give to you.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  And therefore he will not be available to make

21     his opening?

22             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, that's correct.  That's correct, yes.

23             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Would I be wrong in concluding, Mr. Ivetic, that

24     the Defence worked on the assumption that Mr. Cepic's case would take the

25     entire four weeks and, therefore, they were just -- you're just getting

Page 3707

 1     yourself ready to begin on Monday?

 2             MR. IVETIC:  No, we foresaw that it might start this week.  I

 3     don't think we thought it was going to be undertaken in two days.  Your

 4     Honour said four weeks.  I think you meant four days, but we prepared for

 5     that, but again, we had so many things to do.  I -- for one, I can tell

 6     you I was in gaol every day last week dealing with Mr. Lukic and trying

 7     to resolve the issue with the secretariat and trying to find out how we

 8     can put witnesses on the list.  We finally put witnesses on the list.

 9     Now we've been working on trying to comply with the Court's order to try

10     and streamline the case as much as possible without impinging upon

11     Mr. Lukic's rights.

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  You can't answer this, but --

13             MR. IVETIC:  I just did.

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  -- I mean, I still wonder how responsible it was

15     for Mr. Alarid to schedule his arrival here on Thursday morning when the

16     direction given by the Chamber made it plain that he should be ready to

17     start immediately following the closing of the case for Mr. Lukic,

18     Mr. Cepic's case.

19             MR. IVETIC:  And Your Honours, always in a trial, when it's a

20     rolling date to say when another party finishes, which is beyond our

21     control, we have to guess at that, and sometimes we --

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  No, but if you understood that order, the

23     language is quite plain.

24             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Clearly there was a possibility that Mr. Cepic

Page 3708

 1     would close his case sometime before Thursday.

 2             MR. IVETIC:  Okay.

 3             JUDGE ROBINSON:  And our time here is very important.  We can't

 4     waste it, and that is why the Trial Chamber --

 5             MR. IVETIC:  But Your Honour --

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  -- instructed that you should be ready to begin

 7     your case so soon as Mr. Cepic closes, whether that was Tuesday or

 8     Wednesday or Thursday, you should be ready, you know?

 9             MR. IVETIC:  And every other judge that Mr. Alarid is appearing

10     in front of in New Mexico has the same attitude, that he has to be

11     preparing cases.  So his schedule ask such that he had to go back and he

12     had meet with the witnesses, he met with some expert witnesses of ours

13     that we have on the list, that were -- two, I think, have been approved

14     by the registry.  The others we're preparing applications for them to be

15     approved on.  He's doing work, Your Honour.  He's doing work.  He's not

16     on vacation.  That's -- I don't want to make any --

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, but this work is paramount, and a counsel

18     who appears here must accept that.  He either accepts that or he doesn't.

19     If he doesn't accept it, then he shouldn't be working here.

20             What is the next matter, Mr. Cepic?  Yes, just a minute.

21             JUDGE VAN DER WYNGAERT:  I have another question.  I'm sorry.

22     You were saying, once we get started, then we can put on speed, but when

23     are you going to get started because it seems that you have not started

24     yet, that you can't start this week.  Are you going to -- is that then a

25     moment we expect next week or when are you going to get started?

Page 3709

 1             MR. IVETIC:  Well, again, Your Honour, I indicated that I did not

 2     get started because I could not move anywhere from The Hague last week,

 3     so I could not go on the train to meet with witnesses and obtain their

 4     passports, to submit them to the VWS for visas, to work with them on

 5     statements for the ones that have statements, to prepare them to testify,

 6     the job that a lawyer's supposed to do in this Tribunal.  We're not

 7     supposed to bring witnesses that we've never met before, Your Honour, and

 8     because of the Prosecution's actions last week, we were unable to do

 9     that.  Hopefully if we have some time I can go on the weekend and meet

10     with four or five witnesses and have four or five witnesses for a week

11     and then have a continuing process.  That's the way Defence teams work.

12     You have counsel, Defence counsel, interchanging roles, running out on to

13     trains to do things.  That's the way we do them.  I'm well aware of that.

14     I've been here for a number of years, and I just finished a trial that

15     lasted two and a half years, so that's what we do, and that's what we

16     were unable to do last week because of all the factors that we've

17     discussed.

18             And again, I can't stress hard enough how -- what a unique

19     situation it was to have a client on hunger strike and having the

20     Prosecution object to a witness that he was contacting, that they knew

21     was one of our witnesses, that they even said, You can contact him.  I --

22     Mr. Groome in the transcript is recorded as saying, You can contact him,

23     and then they object to it and we're not allowed to contact anyone.  It's

24     a situation that caused a great deal of turmoil for us and made us unable

25     to prepare our case for this week.  We had hoped to present two witnesses

Page 3710

 1     that we could prepare under that time period, and now I'm meeting --

 2     basically, I'm -- basically, I made a mistake by putting those two

 3     witnesses on is -- is what I'm getting.  That I should have had no

 4     witnesses on the list because these witnesses are unavailable now, so

 5     it's the same as if I had no witnesses on the list.  But again, if I have

 6     time, a weekend or -- if Mr. Cepic's case finishes early and we don't

 7     have trial proceedings then I can go right away and then I can witnesses,

 8     a group of witnesses for a week put together so that I can have a pool to

 9     work from to say, okay, I have five or six witnesses that are available,

10     that have been notified to the Prosecution by the Thursday before,

11     because of course we have that obligation --

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  You'll be ready for Monday?  I think that's the

13     question the Judge --

14             MR. IVETIC:  I hope to be for -- with something, but I don't know

15     at this point in time, Your Honour, until I go out into the field.  I

16     hope to have some witnesses, yes, but it all depends on a lot of things

17     and don't forget that it depends a lot on how fast the witnesses go, too.

18     We might have witnesses for part of the week but not the whole week.  I

19     don't know ir as we stand right now.  We haven't even decided what

20     witnesses I'm going to try and contact and get.

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Monday's the holiday.  It's Tuesday.

22             MR. IVETIC:  Tuesday.  That's the goal.  I mean, obviously it's

23     always the goal to try and fill as much of the court time as possible

24     with live witnesses or with witnesses appearing by written statement

25     pursuant to 92 ter and 92 bis.  That is the goal.  That is the goal that

Page 3711

 1     we have as Defence counsel, but we have all these other things working

 2     against us, Your Honours, and that's what you have to take into account,

 3     and that's what I'm presenting to you, and that's all I can do.  That's

 4     all I can do is present these things to you.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  It's only complaints that I've heard from you,

 6     Mr. Ivetic.

 7             JUDGE VAN DER WYNGAERT:  We are Tuesday now and you don't seem to

 8     have an idea about what the witnesses are that you are going to bring

 9     next week, or am I misunderstanding you?  Will you by Thursday of this

10     week be able to produce a list?

11             MR. IVETIC:  By Thursday of this week I have to produce a list,

12     correct, so then I will have a better idea, yes.

13             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, since it seems that I'm being blamed

14     for much of these problems --

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, no doubt about that.

16             MR. GROOME:  -- I need to place a few things on the record.  On

17     the 18th of November -- well, it seems that I'm being accused of impeding

18     the ability of Mr. Ivetic to contact the witness, and I flatly and

19     categorically deny anything like that.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I didn't know that you had that power.

21             MR. GROOME:  I don't have that power, and it's being attributed

22     to me under misrepresentations, and I had nothing to do with the timing

23     of this.  On the 18th, the registrar, the deputy registrar contacted me

24     through a letter that was sent to counsel, I believe they knew this

25     before I did, informing me that Mr. Lukic had called the father of

Page 3712

 1     Zehra Turjacanin pretending to be someone he wasn't, pretending to be in

 2     Italy rather than in the detention unit, and seeking contact information

 3     about his son.  This frightened the man.  Alarms were raised with

 4     registry, and both Defence counsel and I were notified about it.  Three

 5     hours after I received that letter, I filed a request freezing the

 6     non-privileged phone calls of Mr. Lukic until the matter could be

 7     investigated.  At that stage, I did not have the translations of the

 8     transcript of that telephone conversation.

 9             At no time was the privileged communication between Mr. Ivetic

10     and Mr. Lukic interrupted, so I really fail to see how Mr. Ivetic claims

11     that he was unable to be in communication with his client outside of

12     The Hague.  At any time Mr. Ivetic wanted to contact any witness, whether

13     they were witnesses that had some relation to a Prosecution witness or

14     not, if he had that information, he was free to do that.  He did not have

15     to go through me.

16             Yesterday, and I think an allusion was made to it today, that

17     this occasioned an awful lot of work on the part of the Defence team, I

18     would point out that the appeal of that procedure was made by Mr. Lukic

19     himself in a letter by himself.  There were no filings related to this --

20     to my action, that letter, that were filed by either Mr. Ivetic or

21     Mr. Alarid.  It was solely done by Mr. Lukic.

22             MR. IVETIC:  And I guess --

23             JUDGE ROBINSON:  We don't want to have to carry this thing on too

24     long.  Do you have something to say?

25             MR. IVETIC:  I know, Your Honour.  Yes, I do, Your Honour,

Page 3713

 1     because again, Mr. Groome is presenting thing that are not true.  He

 2     knows very well that I sent a cease and desist notice of several pages

 3     and I had to meet with Mr. Alarid to discuss that.  He knows these

 4     things.  He also ought to know that the only privileged communications

 5     that Mr. Lukic can have are to the office here in The Hague.  I stress

 6     that again.  These actions completely disrupted any ability to go out

 7     into the terrain and do anything with witnesses, anything at all, and

 8     it's something that if he doesn't know, now he should now.

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I think I've heard enough, Mr. Groome.  I think

10     I've heard enough, thank you.  Mr. Cepic.

11             MR. CEPIC:  Our next witness.  Good morning, Your Honours.  Our

12     next witness is Mr. Branimir Bugarski.

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

14             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I do have a couple of preliminary

15     matters.  It will be very brief.

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  Well, let's hear them.

17             MR. GROOME:  I think I'll be finished by the time the witness is

18     brought into the courtroom.  Your Honours, last evening at 9.55 p.m., I

19     received a proofing note with respect to Mr. Bugarski, and I certainly

20     understand that when working with witnesses they inevitably provide

21     additional information just prior to appearing in court.  I want to place

22     on the record in light of the many objections raised during the

23     Prosecution case regarding our supplying of proofing notes that for each

24     of the witnesses in the Sredoje Lukic case, the Prosecution received

25     proofing notes shortly before their testimony.

Page 3714

 1             The second matter, Your Honour, that I'd like to raise has to do

 2     with these documents authored by a priest in Krtinska, and my question

 3     that I seek clarification from Mr. Cepic is, we've received two different

 4     translations, two versions of translations of the document, one in which

 5     the feast day is alleged to be just an ordinary feast day and another one

 6     in which the feast day is alleged to be the village feast day of

 7     Krtinska.  It seems to be an important issue.  I didn't object to the

 8     priest not being here to introduce the document, but perhaps Mr. Cepic

 9     can clarify it, why there are two different translations of the same

10     document with that -- what seems to be an important difference, and maybe

11     put my concerns at ease.

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Cepic.

13             MR. CEPIC:  Your Honour, that document is already admitted.

14     Firstly, we received that document, the last document from the local

15     priest on 18th of November, just one day, actually on 17th of November,

16     just one day before our 65 ter submissions, so we just have a draft

17     translation, and later on we requested an official translation from ICTY

18     translation service.  So the new translation is from official service of

19     this court, so that is the difference, and this new translation, official

20     translation, is in the system.

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  And that's the one that should be followed.

22             MR. GROOME:  And could I simply ask, then, is it the Defence

23     theory that the feast of the Holy Trinity is the village feast day of

24     Krtinska or is simply just an ordinary feast day in the Serbian Orthodox

25     church?

Page 3715

 1             MR. CEPIC:  I think that Mr. Groome could find if answer in

 2     yesterday's testimony of Mr. Zivkovic and in admitted exhibit.  Thank

 3     you.  And I think that it is not the moment for final arguments.

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I agree.  I agree, yes.  Don't answer it.

 5     Mr. Groome.

 6             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, it's simply for me to know how to

 7     question these witnesses.  I don't know what the theory is.  I've been

 8     presented with contradictory translations of the same document.  I'd like

 9     not to have to object and ask that the priest be called to explain it,

10     but I mean, is the theory of the Defence that it is a village feast day

11     or is it not, or -- I mean, why are we receiving contradictory

12     information on what seems to be an issue?

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  It's not for you to ask.  If the Chamber wishes,

14     we will ask for the matter to be clarified.  For the moment, do you have

15     any other matter to raise?

16             MR. GROOME:  No, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thanks.

18                           [The witness entered court]

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. Cepic kindly speak closer to the

20     microphone.  He is barely audible to the interpreters.  Thank you very

21     much.

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Let the witness make the declaration.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

24     speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

25                           WITNESS:  BRANIMIR BUGARSKI

Page 3716

 1                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Please sit, and you may begin, Mr. Cepic.

 3             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4                           Examination by Mr. Cepic:

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Bugarski.

 6        A.   Good morning.

 7        Q.   For the record, please state your full name.

 8        A.   Branimir Bugarski.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Please, would you give me the place and date of your

10     birth.

11        A.   19th of October, 1950.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             MR. CEPIC:  Could we have in e-court system document number ID

14     number 2D05-0272.  That is the version in B/C/S, and the English version

15     is 2D04-0109, please.  And in the meantime, could the court usher pass

16     this hard copy of the witness statement to the witness.

17        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Bugarski, did you give in January 2008 a

18     written statement to Mr. Sredoje Lukic's Defence team?

19        A.   Yes, I did.

20        Q.   Did you on the 1st December meeting, yesterday's meeting, with

21     Defence team sought to alter some of the things in the statement?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   You have this written statement in front of you.  Did you, with

24     respect to the last sentence in the seventh paragraph, which reads:

25     "Milojko's son Dejan was also present there and they explained to me what

Page 3717

 1     happened ..."

 2             Did you want to explain who explained what?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Could you please tell us who explained this to you.

 5        A.   Milojko Popadic.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  And with respect to paragraph 9, the sentence:  "We

 7     had agreed earlier that I would prepare food for them, pork, to be

 8     precise, so that they could put it in a freezer and bring it to their

 9     family in Visegrad."  Did you want to explain more precisely who

10     contacted you and who sought the pork?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Who was that?

13        A.   Sredoje Lukic.

14        Q.   Thank you.  In relation to the last sentence of paragraph 9:

15     "After this conversation, they got into their vehicle and left

16     Obrenovac."  Did you want to state what you were told by them to the

17     effect that they did not say precisely where they went but they had to go

18     there?  Was that correct?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Mr. Bugarski, if I were to ask you the same questions, apart from

21     the alterations that you just stated, same questions when I interviewed

22     you during you giving the statements, would you provide the same answers

23     here today as you did on that other occasion?

24        A.   Yes.  The same.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 3718

 1             MR. CEPIC:  [Previous translation continues] ... statement as

 2     evidence with your leave.

 3             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 4             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cepic, what did you say?

 6             MR. CEPIC:  I kindly ask admission of this statement.

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Well, yes.  I said yes.

 8             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  That's Exhibit 2D47, Your Honours.

10             MR. CEPIC:  Could we have in e-court system document ID number

11     2D03-0266, in English is 67.

12        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Bugarski, who signed this certificate?

13        A.   I did.

14        Q.   No, no.  I'm not asking you about the witness statement.  Take a

15     look at this screen.  I'm sorry.  I didn't instruct you to do so.  Do you

16     see a document on the screen?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Can you see who signed it?

19        A.   This certificate was signed by our pastor, priest,

20     Petar Paraklis.

21        Q.   Who is he?  What is he the pastor of?

22        A.   He's from Urovci-Krtinska parish, and he's the priest in my

23     village, Krtinska.

24        Q.   Mr. Bugarski, it is seen here that your local priest certified

25     that all the households celebrate the village feast day of Pentecost, the

Page 3719

 1     Trinity, the Most Holy Trinity.

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Could you tell us, are these celebrations individual or for the

 4     whole village?

 5        A.   Holy Trinity is the village feast.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7             MR. CEPIC:  Your Honour, I kindly ask for admission of this

 8     exhibit, and I see that Mr. Groome is on his feet.

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Let us hear who Mr. Bugarski is.  Did you have

10     that already?

11             MR. CEPIC:  I'm sorry?

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  What work does he do, Mr. Bugarski?

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Am I being asked this question?

15     May I answer?

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, yes.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm a salesman.

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  And do you know the priest -- do you know the

19     priest, Mr. Paraklis?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  And what kind of priest is he?  Of what church?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He's a priest of the Orthodox

23     church.  He came there.  He built an Orthodox church there -- well, he

24     managed, and two villages of Krtinska and Urovac [as interpreted] for the

25     services of those two villages.

Page 3720

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             MR. CEPIC:  Your Honour, I think that I may clarify the confusion

 3     which --

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Inaudible.  Please speak into the microphone.

 5             MR. CEPIC:  So it is the wrong translation.  So I would ask the

 6     witness to read the certificate in B/C/S.  I found mistake now, and I

 7     apologize now for this omission from my Defence team.

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  You're asking him to read it in B/C/S so we can

 9     have it translated?

10             MR. CEPIC:  Yes, Your Honour, with your leave.

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  Go ahead.

12             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you.

13        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Bugarski, because of mistranslation, could

14     you please read this certificate in Serbian?

15        A.   Certificate:  Issued pursuant to the request of Mr. Branko

16     Bugarski from Krtinska, Dorcula 65, Obrenovac municipality.

17             Village of Krtinska, which belongs to the Urovci-Krtinska parish,

18     in it all the household heads celebrate the descent of the host

19     Holy Trinity, and the household head, stated above, also celebrates the

20     Patron Saint's Day of the St. Stephen of Decani.  The parish hereby

21     confirms and certifies that the above is accurate, certified by the

22     Urovci-Krtinska parish priest, Petar Paraklis.

23        Q.   Thank you very much, Mr. Bugarski.

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Whose statement is this?  Is it the statement of

25     this witness or of the priest?

Page 3721

 1             MR. CEPIC:  From the priest.  He just read the -- he just read

 2     this certificate from the priest.

 3             JUDGE ROBINSON:  It is the priest's certificate.  Is he

 4     available, the priest?

 5             MR. CEPIC:  I can contact him.

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  He would be the best person to give this

 7     evidence, it would seem to me.

 8             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE VAN DER WYNGAERT:  Mr. Cepic, may I ask you a question?

10     Has the statement of this witness been uploaded in e-court?  Because I'm

11     trying to find it, and I can't find it.  Maybe it's my lack of

12     technological awareness.

13             MR. CEPIC:  I'll try to assist you, Your Honour.  The ID number

14     is 2D05 --

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

16             MR. CEPIC:  I'm sorry.  2D05-0272 in B/C/S, and in English, it's

17     2D04-0109.

18             JUDGE VAN DER WYNGAERT:  I can't find it in the tendered

19     documents nor in the Defence release documents, but maybe I need some

20     assistance from the --

21                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Cepic.

23             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you.  Thank you, Your Honour.  Your Honour, I

24     kindly ask for admission of this certificate, of course, to keep reserve

25     for additional translation for the -- from the official service.

Page 3722

 1             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 3             MR. GROOME:  I would ask two things.  One, I would ask that it be

 4     marked for identification until we have the correct translation.  I don't

 5     think it'd be wise to admit something that we now know is an erroneous

 6     translation.  And secondly, I would ask Mr. Cepic -- we admitted a

 7     similar document yesterday.  I would ask that that document be reviewed,

 8     and if it, too, has an error in its translation, I would ask that

 9     Mr. Cepic bring that to our attention so that the Chamber may deal with

10     that properly.

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  That's the hospital record?

12             MR. GROOME:  No, Your Honour.  Another certificate from the same

13     priest was introduced with, I believe, the first witness, Mr. Zivkovic,

14     yesterday.

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I see.  Okay.  We'll mark it for identification,

16     pending translation from the services.

17             JUDGE VAN DER WYNGAERT:  Excuse me to interrupt again, but I have

18     now retrieved the document that you referred to in e-court and it's

19     another document, so this is not the statement of this witness, document

20     2D05-0272.  I was trying to follow.  I'm sorry.

21             MR. CEPIC:  I apologize, Your Honour.  This is a version in

22     B/C/S.  Maybe I made confusion.  In English is 2D04-0109.  Witness

23     statement, and it is on our screens now.

24                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  The registrar's going to print the document for

Page 3723

 1     us.

 2             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you.  And I apologize, I'm not so skillful with

 3     these electronic devices.

 4             JUDGE VAN DER WYNGAERT:  Neither am I.

 5             MR. CEPIC:  I'm trying to do my best.  Thank you, Your Honour.

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Popadic [as

 7     interpreted].  I have no further questions for you.

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Groome.

 9             MR. GROOME:  Thank you, Your Honour.

10                           Cross-examination by Mr. Groome:

11        Q.   Mr. Bugarski, I'm to your right.  I'm Dermot Groome, and I'm

12     going to ask you some questions on behalf of the Prosecution.  The first

13     question I'd like to ask you is, you've told us that by profession you're

14     a salesman.  What do you sell?

15        A.   I'm a salesman.  I have cattle feed in my store, concentrates for

16     cattle feed.

17        Q.   And where do you currently live?

18        A.   In Krtinska.

19        Q.   And do you live in the same home that you lived in in 1992?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Do you have a phone in the house?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Did you have a phone in the house in 1992?

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   You've lived all of your life in Krtinska; is that correct?

Page 3724

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Do you consider yourself to be a man who enjoys good health?

 3        A.   Well, I have blood pressure a bit on the high side, but that's

 4     because of my advanced age.

 5        Q.   But aside from the high blood pressure that many of us get as we

 6     age, you have no other ailments that you suffer from.  Is that correct?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   Now, I want to discuss with you your relationship to

 9     Sredoje Lukic.  Am I correct in saying that you know him for over 25

10     years?

11        A.   I'm not sure whether it's 25 years, but I've known him since 1983

12     or 1984.  I can't be more precise.  When he got married.  I've known him

13     ever since he got married.

14        Q.   And throughout that period of 24, 25 years, you've always enjoyed

15     good relationships with him and his family.  Is that correct?

16        A.   Yes.  From that point onwards, because I had known his wife from

17     before.  She is the sister of my brother-in-law's wife.  My wife's

18     brother's sister-in-law is his wife.

19        Q.   Okay.  I think I understand that.  Have you celebrated holidays

20     with Sredoje Lukic's family?

21        A.   Yes.  Well, mostly at Milojko Popadic's.

22        Q.   And when's the last time you celebrated a holiday with

23     Sredoje Lukic and his family?

24        A.   And can't say precisely.  It was usually around St. George's Day

25     because my brother-in-law celebrates that holiday.

Page 3725

 1        Q.   And is that St. George's Day this past year -- or I'm sorry, did

 2     you celebrate St. George's Day --

 3        A.   No, no.  Well, before the war.

 4        Q.   Did you ever celebrate Vidovdan with him or St. Vitus's Day?

 5        A.   Well, in my village we do not celebrate St. Vitus's Day.  It's

 6     just a holiday that we acknowledge, but we do not celebrate it specially

 7     in my village.

 8        Q.   When you say that it's not celebrated in your village, are you

 9     saying that it's the custom that no one in the village would celebrate

10     Vidovdan Day?

11        A.   In my village, nobody celebrates Vidovdan.  We just don't work on

12     that day.  It is a major holiday of ours, and nobody works on that day.

13     Well --

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cepic.

15             MR. CEPIC:  I'm sorry.  I think that we have a problem in

16     transcript.  It is quite --

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Inaudible.

18             MR. CEPIC:  -- it is quite different from B/C/S in English.

19     Second sentence on 25th page, line 1, in my village nobody celebrates

20     Vidovdan.  We just don't work on that day.  Witness said [B/C/S spoken].

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  According to Mr. Cepic,

22     what is that supposed to mean, unless it means "nobody works."

23             MR. CEPIC:  It is different meaning than nobody works, but is the

24     issue -- maybe better -- it would be better translation, "acknowledge of

25     that holiday," or something like commemorate.

Page 3726

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Mr. Cepic is inaudible.  Could he kindly speak

 2     into the microphone, please.

 3             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cepic, you're being asked to speak into the

 4     microphone.  What do you say is the correct translation?

 5             MR. CEPIC:  Witness did not say "nobody works on that day."  He

 6     said something like -- I'll try to be interpreter.  Acknowledge that

 7     holiday or -- I need assistance from Mr. -- commemorate.

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  That nobody commemorates that day?

 9             MR. CEPIC:  No one commemorate that day but they acknowledge that

10     day.

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  It's not commemorated but it's acknowledged.

12             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, may I make a suggestion.  It's quite

13     difficult to conduct an examination and have lengthy discourses about

14     possible different interpretations.  There's actually a procedure for

15     doing this.  There's a sheet of paper which Mr. Cepic can take.  He can

16     simply mark the line that he has issue with, mark what he thinks is the

17     error, and then that will be reviewed by the interpreters and the

18     transcript recorders during the course of the day, and it seems to me

19     that we should be bound by the professionals that are sitting in the

20     booth and not be entering into a discourse in the middle of my

21     examination about what a particular word might mean.  I'd ask that we

22     follow the procedure designated for this.

23             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, I agree, Mr. Cepic.  There is a procedure

24     to be followed, so unless it is something that is particularly urgent and

25     of great significance to the understanding of the evidence, please follow

Page 3727

 1     that procedure.

 2             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you, Your Honour, and just one sentence with

 3     your leave.  Just to avoid any misleading later for cross-examination of

 4     Mr. Groome.  That is the point why I raise that issue.  Thank you,

 5     Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Cepic.

 7             MR. GROOME:

 8        Q.   Sir, I want to take you to your statement which is now in

 9     evidence.  In paragraph 8 of your statement, you say:  "Sredoje Lukic

10     would occasionally go to Visegrad, and he would usually call me when he

11     was coming or going."

12             Do you recall saying that in your statement?

13        A.   Yes, but I don't know what it refers to.

14        Q.   Could I ask --

15        A.   Could you please expound on that, please?

16        Q.   Let me call it up in front of you so you can actually see the

17     statement that you signed.

18             MR. GROOME:  Could I ask that we see paragraph 8 of the

19     statement.

20        Q.   While that's being called up, I believe it refers to the period

21     of time in the spring, summer, of 1992 that you were referring, but we're

22     calling it up now, and you should see it on your screen in front of you

23     in the next few seconds.

24             While it's being called up, let me ask you a couple of other

25     questions.  During -- you also say in your statement that during this

Page 3728

 1     period, spring, summer of 1992, Sredoje Lukic was looking for work in

 2     Belgrade.  Is that correct?

 3        A.   That's correct.  It is correct that he was trying to get

 4     employment in Belgrade.  When I let him the apartment and he entered my

 5     parents' home and after he stabilized after the problems he'd had, as far

 6     as I know he would go to Belgrade because he was -- he told me he was

 7     trying to get employment using the services of a relative that he had

 8     over there.

 9        Q.   And we heard about some of that yesterday.  Could you ask you to

10     please, if possible, answer my question yes or no or as briefly as you

11     can.  We are -- we do have to be mindful of the time here.  Was it your

12     understanding that he was unemployed at this time?

13        A.   Well, that was my understanding because he had come from Visegrad

14     with the intention of not going back there, and his plans were to try to

15     find a job in Belgrade.

16        Q.   And do you know if during this period his wife Vidjenka was

17     working?

18        A.   No, she was not employed.

19        Q.   Okay.  Sir, now paragraph 8 is up on the screen in front of you.

20             MR. GROOME:  Could I ask that we move down a little bit so the

21     witness can see paragraph 7 as well.  Oh, it's on another page?

22        Q.   Sir, let us know if you want to look at paragraph 7, but let's

23     see if that doesn't remind you of the context in which you said that:

24     "Sredoje Lukic would occasionally go to Visegrad and he would usually

25     call me when he was going or coming" -- or "coming or going."  Do you

Page 3729

 1     remember saying that?

 2        A.   Yes, I do recall that.

 3        Q.   So my question for you, sir, is if he was out of work, if he was

 4     looking for work in Belgrade, what was your understanding about why he

 5     was returning, coming and going from Visegrad during this period?

 6        A.   Can I now?  Can I --

 7        Q.   Yes.  Do you know?  If you know.

 8        A.   Well, what you asked me about happened afterwards when he could

 9     not find employment in Belgrade.  When he'd realized that he could not

10     find a job in Belgrade, it was then that he returned to Visegrad.  He was

11     looking for work in Belgrade around the start of May in 1992.  He was

12     traveling to Belgrade, and when he realized that --

13        Q.   So, sir, when he was going and coming from Visegrad, what was

14     it -- what was your understanding about why he was going and coming from

15     Visegrad?

16        A.   Well, to work, I suppose.

17        Q.   Now, you're aware of the incident in which Sredoje Lukic and

18     Niko Vujicic were held captive and tortured by Muslims in Visegrad.  Is

19     that not correct?

20        A.   Well, I saw it on RTS television in April.  It was an afternoon

21     when I saw Sredoje and some other people on TV.

22        Q.   So you were aware of it.  So my question to you is, is can you

23     describe what Sredoje Lukic was like after that incident?  Did you notice

24     a noticeable change in him as a result of that incident?

25        A.   Are you asking me about that footage or did I see it on TV

Page 3730

 1     footage?

 2        Q.   No, not about the footage itself.  I'm asking you about when you

 3     met or saw Sredoje Lukic after that incident, after he was released, did

 4     you notice any differences in him, in his personality, in his behavior,

 5     after having undergone that torture and being burnt by these Muslim

 6     captives?

 7        A.   Well, I noticed when he came to visit his family a day or two

 8     after that TV broadcast, my wife had gone to visit her brother, and I saw

 9     that he was despondent, in a bad mood, even afraid, and he even showed me

10     certain scars on his arms.

11        Q.   And what -- you've made some motion to both of your wrists.  What

12     were the scars that you observed on his body?

13        A.   Well, I saw redness of skin.  I asked him what was this all

14     about.  He said, I was tied up.

15        Q.   Did you see where he had been burned?

16        A.   Well, I saw when he raised his shirt that he had visible

17     injuries.

18        Q.   And could you describe those injuries for us?

19        A.   Well, there were bruises, and there was redness, the same as I

20     had seen on the TV footage.

21        Q.   Did he express any anger at what -- about his treatment?

22        A.   I don't know.  I can't remember if he was angry, but he was

23     despondent, very silent.  I could see that something was going on.  I

24     mean, I didn't spend a long time with him, perhaps an hour before I went

25     home.

Page 3731

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Am I correct in saying that you are the

 2     brother-in-law of the next witness, Milojko Popadic?

 3        A.   He's my brother-in-law.

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  The witness is making distinction between terms

 5     of relation that do not exist in English.

 6             MR. GROOME:

 7        Q.   So to be clear, you are married to his sister, Milojka?

 8        A.   Yes.  Yes.

 9        Q.   You didn't provide that information in your statement.  The

10     statement that we have before you, you don't inform us that you have that

11     relationship to Mr. Popadic.  Is that correct?

12        A.   Well, nobody asked me.  I don't know.

13        Q.   Can I ask you to describe your relationship with

14     Veroljub Zivkovic.

15        A.   Well, Veroljub Zivkovic lives in the same village as I do.  Not

16     in the same hamlet, though.  He lives on a farm, an agricultural property

17     called Mladost.  We've known each other --

18        Q.   I'm sorry.  I interrupted you.  I was going to ask you, how long

19     have you known Mr. Zivkovic?

20        A.   Well, forever, since he was born.  It's the same village, only a

21     different hamlet.  He was born on the Mladost property.  I was born in

22     Krtinska hamlet.  That's how we know each other.

23        Q.   Have you always enjoyed a good relationship with him and his

24     family?

25        A.   Depends on how you understand it.  We are on good business terms.

Page 3732

 1     He's a good locksmith and autobody repairman, and Milojko Popadic, as you

 2     know, a haulier.  He has many trucks and whenever something would break

 3     down, he would give it to Veroljub to repair.  I brought two trucks to my

 4     own son when he turned 18, and Veroljub set these trucks right, put them

 5     in good shape.  Now he's working somewhere else.

 6        Q.   Sir, just so you understand how it works here, it takes a few

 7     seconds before I actually hear what you say, so the long pause is not me

 8     waiting for you to answer more.  It's simply me waiting to hear, so

 9     again, if I could ask you to please try to keep your answers brief and

10     allow me to ask follow-up questions.  Thank you, sir.

11             I want to now ask you about where Sredoje Lukic lived in

12     Obrenovac when he moved his family.  Can you tell us where he lived when

13     he first came to Obrenovac in 1992?

14        A.   Well, in the month of March, he brought his family, that's to say

15     his wife and children, and his brother.  I saw him then when he arrived

16     in the end March, bringing his wife and children.

17        Q.   And he first lived in the house of Mr. Popadic; is that correct?

18        A.   Popadic, yes.

19        Q.   Subsequently, he moved to an apartment that you owned that used

20     to be your parents' home or apartment, correct?

21        A.   [In English] Yeah.

22        Q.   What's your best memory as to when he moved from the Popadic

23     house to the apartment that you owned?

24        A.   [Interpretation] Towards the end of April, 1992.

25        Q.   Was he paying you rent?

Page 3733

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   Am I correct in thinking that at that time there were a number of

 3     Serb families living in Eastern Bosnia that were moving to the Belgrade

 4     area and it would have been possible for you to have allowed a -- it

 5     would have been possible for you to have rented out that apartment for

 6     some money?  Is that correct?

 7        A.   Yes, but at that time it was the beginning of the war, and the

 8     circumstances were straight.  It's not really well seen in our parts to

 9     make a profit on somebody who is in a bad situation.

10        Q.   Sir --

11        A.   So --

12        Q.   How long did he remain in your apartment altogether?

13        A.   From the end of April, he stayed perhaps until the end of

14     October, I'd say, if I'm not mistaken.  I know that his daughter Bojana

15     started the second year of school while living our village, and then

16     after that they left.

17        Q.   So he stayed in your apartment until October 1992.  Is that

18     correct?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Now, you just said, and I see it in your statement, that

21     Sredoje's brother also moved to Obrenovac.  Which brother was that?  What

22     was the name of that brother?

23        A.   Not that I know of.  I don't know that his brother moved to

24     Obrenovac.  Instead --

25        Q.   Well, sir, let me read what you have -- what you have in

Page 3734

 1     paragraph 3 of the statement which is in evidence.  It says:  "In March

 2     1992, Sredoje Lukic's family came to Obrenovac, as did his brother's

 3     family."  Do you remember saying that in your statement?

 4        A.   That's true, but they only came together for an hour or two.  I

 5     don't know if they spent the night at Milojko Popadic's house.  All I

 6     know is that when I went to visit, they were no longer there.  Only

 7     Sredoje's family was there.  They could have moved on to Belgrade,

 8     perhaps.  I don't know.

 9        Q.   Okay, that clears that.  I wanted to talk to you now about the

10     feast of the Holy Trinity.  What day -- the Holy Trinity occurs on a

11     different date each year.  Is that not correct?

12        A.   Not really.  The Holy Trinity's always on a Sunday, always on a

13     Sunday.  Only the dates are different, 50 days from Easter.

14        Q.   Okay.  So some years it might be the 12th of June, the 16th of

15     June.  It could even be in May depending upon if Easter comes early in a

16     particular year.  Is that correct?

17        A.   I'm not sure about May, but perhaps.

18        Q.   What day was the feast of the Holy Trinity on in the year 2000?

19     Do you know what date, what date in June?

20        A.   Which day?

21        Q.   Did you know the date, the numerical date?

22        A.   No, no.  I would have to look up a calendar.

23        Q.   Would you be able to tell me what date it fell on in 1995, or am

24     I correct in assuming that you'd have difficulty doing that as well?

25        A.   No, I can't do that.  You can see it in the church calendar.

Page 3735

 1        Q.   Sir, who told you that in 1992 the feast of the Holy Trinity fell

 2     on the 14th of June?

 3             MR. CEPIC:  Excuse me.  Objection.

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes?

 5             MR. CEPIC:  This question is misleading because this witness

 6     never mentioned 14th of June in his statement.  He just mentioned Holy

 7     Trinity celebration.

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Where is that from, Mr. Groome?

 9             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, if I may have a minute to check the

10     statement.

11        Q.   So, sir, is it your evidence that you do not know the date of the

12     Holy Trinity in 1992?

13        A.   Well, now I know.

14        Q.   Okay.  Now, my question to you is, now that you know, who told

15     you?

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  How did he find out?

17             MR. GROOME:

18        Q.   How did you find out?

19        A.   Well, I found out from a calendar provided by - I don't know who

20     it was provided by, and you can look it up at my parents' calendar - they

21     keep all this stuff.  And I saw it here.  It's somewhere -- lawyer Cepic

22     has it, and he told me that.

23        Q.   So it was Mr. Cepic that informed you that the feast of the

24     Holy Trinity fell on the 14th of June in 1992?

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

Page 3736

 1             MR. CEPIC:  This is misleading of witness.  Witness clearly

 2     stated in his statement, he never mentioned 14th of June, and now

 3     Mr. Groome putting his word to him.  The statement is clear.

 4             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, the lawyer [sic] has just said:

 5     "Lawyer Cepic has it, and he told me that."  I'm simply confirming what

 6     the witness has said.  I'm not confined to what has been placed in this

 7     statement.

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  That's quite so.  The question is based on the

 9     answer provided by the witness, Mr. Cepic, so it's not objectionable.

10             MR. CEPIC:  Your Honour, with your leave, but in a moment of --

11     in a moment of when he gave the statement, he didn't know that.

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, it's true.  It's not in the statement.  I

13     don't see it in the statement, 14th of June, but the evidence that has

14     been led in cross-examination provides a foundation for the question.

15             MR. CEPIC:  Yes, but he said that on preparation he saw the

16     church calendar.

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, but he just told Mr. Cepic [sic] that a

18     lawyer told him.

19             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  So that is why Mr. Groome is asking the

21     question.  It's based on his answer, the witness's answer.

22             Yes, Mr. Groome.

23             MR. GROOME:

24        Q.   Sir, when did Mr. Cepic tell you that it was the 14th of June?

25     Was it the first time you met him or some subsequent time?

Page 3737

 1        A.   Well, what date was it -- practically yesterday.

 2        Q.   Practically yesterday.  So yesterday, Mr. Cepic told you that it

 3     was --

 4        A.   I saw it, also, on this calendar, a photocopy of the calendar.

 5        Q.   Which calendar are you referring to?  Who showed you a calendar?

 6        A.   There's a copy here, I don't know if you can show it on the

 7     screen, a copy of an Orthodox church calendar for the month of June 1992.

 8        Q.   I believe we have seen that.  It's in evidence.  So my question

 9     to you is, who showed you that calendar?

10        A.   Well, Mr. Cepic showed me.

11        Q.   Okay.  Sir, now, I want to talk to you about celebrations in the

12     Serb Orthodox church in general.  Would I be correct in saying that Serbs

13     are a people who enjoy their friends, their families, and enjoy many

14     celebrations throughout the year?

15        A.   Right.

16        Q.   I need for the record to record --

17        A.   Yes, yes.

18        Q.   And there are some holidays that everyone who is Serb Orthodox

19     celebrates, there are holidays that families celebrate, and there are

20     holidays that villages celebrate, correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Would you be able to estimate approximately how many different

23     celebrations you, your family, would celebrate over the course of a year?

24        A.   My family, my household has one family patron saint's day.

25     That's St. Stephen of Decani, and we have the celebration of the

Page 3738

 1     Holy Trinity with the whole village, and we take several non-working days

 2     in a year.  There is a difference between a celebration and a day off.

 3        Q.   So, sir, my question to you is, is the -- we have your statement

 4     about what happened in 1992.  Why are you so sure that it happened on the

 5     feast of the Holy Trinity and not one of the other many celebrations or

 6     feasts that are celebrated by Serbs?

 7        A.   Well, if you could clarify a little what happened.  If you could

 8     be more precise.  I don't know what you mean.

 9        Q.   Well, we have your statement which records how Sredoje Lukic and

10     Mr. Popadic came to your house one evening after an argument at the

11     store.  My question to you is, why are you so sure 15 years later that it

12     was the feast of the Holy Trinity and not one of the other feasts that

13     are celebrated by Serbs?

14        A.   Well, I can remember that year because in my household, in my

15     broader family, some difficult things happened.  I was in mourning for my

16     dead brother, my brother who had died the previous year in November; and

17     in March 1992, the son of my wife's brother died.  He had been wounded,

18     and he could not be transported to Sarajevo and on to Uzice and he died

19     from his wounds, so both my wife and I were in mourning.  This incident

20     had happened in Sokolac.  It was Zjelko Popadic who died.  So, that year

21     was really hard for me.

22        Q.   Sir, just let me ask you a quick question about this nephew who

23     died.  Was he killed during the conflict?

24        A.   He is the nephew of my wife.  He is the son of her brother.

25        Q.   I understand.  Now, was he killed in the conflict?

Page 3739

 1        A.   Not in the conflict.  If you want to be precise, he was a

 2     receptionist in a hotel, and what exactly happened, I don't know.  All we

 3     know is that he was wounded, and he was driven away towards Sarajevo.

 4     There was some roadblocks.  He was turned back towards Uzice.  They ran

 5     into another roadblock.  He died, and he was buried there.

 6        Q.   Was that a natural death, or was he killed by someone?

 7        A.   Well, I know he was wounded, but how exactly that happened,

 8     whether it was some sort of clash or a conflict, I don't know.

 9        Q.   Do you know if the people that wounded him were Muslims?

10        A.   I wouldn't know.  Some people said that it was a self-inflicted

11     wound.  Other people said he was wounded in a skirmish.  There were

12     contradicting stories.

13        Q.   And the roadblocks that prevented him from getting to Sarajevo

14     for treatment, were they roadblocks that were set up by Muslim forces?

15        A.   You know, I really can't tell you now.  I don't know if they were

16     Muslims or the other ones.  What I don't know, I really don't know.

17        Q.   And if you don't know, just please, let me know, and I'll ask you

18     another question.  Now, the argument that occurred between Sredoje Lukic

19     and the shopkeeper on what you say is Holy Trinity Day, I want to be

20     clear.  You were not present in the grocery store when there was this

21     argument over a deposit for some beer bottles, were you?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   Now, Mr. Zivkovic, the only witness to personally witness it,

24     does not characterize it as a very serious dispute.  Am I correct that

25     your only connection with this incident is that sometime later in the

Page 3740

 1     evening Sredoje Lukic and Milojko Popadic came to your home and mentioned

 2     it to you?  Is that correct?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Who told you?  Sredoje or Milojko?

 5        A.   Milojko told me.

 6        Q.   Did Milojko say that he was present during the dispute?

 7        A.   He didn't tell me he had been present.  Do you want a longer

 8     explanation, or do you want a yes or no answer?

 9        Q.   A yes or no will suffice.  How long did it take them to tell you

10     what happened?

11        A.   Well, we stayed together for about ten minutes.

12        Q.   Was that the only thing that you spoke about during that ten

13     minutes?

14        A.   Yes.  We talked only about that.

15        Q.   It seems that the whole exchange only took a few minutes, the

16     dispute over the bottles, so are you saying that it took ten minutes for

17     them to tell you about this dispute over the beer bottles?

18        A.   They were not telling me about beer bottles.  If you want me to

19     be precise, outside my yard a red Aleko vehicle stopped, and it was

20     driven by Milojko Popadic.  I was sitting outside on the terrace with my

21     guests, and I looked outside, and it seemed strange to me that

22     Milojko Popadic was driving Sredoje's car.  So they stopped outside my

23     gate.  Milojko, Sredoje, and Sredoje's -- and Milojko's son came out.

24     They greet my children, and I motioned with my hand for Milojko to come

25     up.  It's strange to me that he's not coming out.  I -- and he shows me

Page 3741

 1     with his hand I'm not coming.

 2        Q.   Sir, what time did they arrive at your house?

 3        A.   It's hard to say what time it was.  It was summer time.  The

 4     first dusk.  It was already getting dark.  I can't tell you how -- I

 5     can't tell you the hour, but it was already getting dark.

 6        Q.   Did you offer them a drink?

 7        A.   I didn't have time because he wouldn't come out of the car,

 8     although I was motioning him to get out, and he was saying, Let go, I

 9     don't want to drink, I have problems.  I asked, With whom?  And he said,

10     With Sredoje up there at Mladost.  He went into a shop to get some drink,

11     and it turns out he had a quarrel with a shopkeeper about some packaging.

12     He wouldn't give him the beer without the packaging, and so he wouldn't

13     come out.  He was supposed to drive Sredoje to the house where he lived.

14        Q.   We have that in your statement.  Sredoje did get out of the car,

15     correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Did it appear that he had been drinking?

18        A.   Well, he was a bit -- not much, but as he was coming out, my son

19     grabbed him by the upper arm.  Sredoje was always a cheerful man.  I

20     wouldn't say he was drunk, but he was -- he had had a few drinks,

21     perhaps.

22        Q.   And Milojko Popadic, he the same, he had had a few drinks?

23        A.   No, no.  He was only angry, but I wouldn't say he had been

24     drinking.

25        Q.   And how about yourself?  Did you have any drink to celebrate

Page 3742

 1     Holy Trinity feast?

 2        A.   That year, I didn't really feel like drinking.

 3        Q.   So, sir, is it your testimony that this brief conversation of

 4     about ten minutes about this dispute over a deposit for a crate of beer

 5     bottles left such an impression upon you that you have a clear and vivid

 6     memory of it 16 years later?

 7        A.   Well, you know, what struck me was that somebody came up to my

 8     door and didn't come in and didn't want to join us for that celebration.

 9     We spent more time arguing about why he wouldn't come out than about the

10     incident itself.

11        Q.   So what's more memorable to you is not what they said about the

12     dispute at the store but the fact that you offered them a drink and they

13     did not come into your house, they just kept going.  Is that your

14     testimony?

15        A.   Yes.  They were standing there, but they didn't really come into

16     the house, and I remember the reason why they didn't come in.

17        Q.   Sir, I must put it to you plainly.  I submit that something like

18     offering hospitality to guests who arrive at our homes and it's politely

19     refused is a rather common occurrence, and I submit to you that it's

20     implausible that you could have such a vivid memory of this event 16

21     years after the fact.

22        A.   Well, I remember it because there are several things there during

23     that holiday that moved me, and I remember that year.  That year for us

24     was --

25        Q.   Sir, what was the weather that evening?

Page 3743

 1        A.   Well, maybe it's silly to talk about it.  I didn't think about

 2     that.  June is always shifty.  Holy Trinity is in June.  In June, there's

 3     usually a development of clouds in the afternoons --

 4        Q.   Sir, it seems that you don't have a vivid or clear memory about

 5     the weather that day, and what you're advising me now is how the weather

 6     in June is generally, correct?

 7        A.   As I said, the weather was changing.  There was some clouds.

 8     There was probably some rain, light rain, but I really cannot remember,

 9     but I do believe that there was some cloud.

10        Q.   Okay.  Sir, do you know a name [sic] by a name of

11     Dragoljub Stakic?

12        A.   From my village or my parts?

13        Q.   Yes, sir.

14        A.   Also known as Lalika, if that's him?

15        Q.   Yes.  Do you know this person?

16        A.   Yes, I know him.

17        Q.   Where does he live?

18        A.   He lives currently in Obrenovac, but he has a house in Krtinska.

19     His mother's house is there, and he has a brother there.  His street is

20     adjacent to my street.

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Groome, unless you're going to finish

22     shortly, we'll take the break now.

23             MR. GROOME:  No, Your Honour.  Yes.

24                           --- Recess taken at 10.23 a.m.

25                           --- On resuming at 10.49 a.m.

Page 3744

 1             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Groome.

 2             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, the court officer has asked for just a

 3     moment to take care of some administrative things.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you, Mr. Groome.  Your Honour, just to have

 5     it reflected in the transcript, the Defence certificate is admitted as

 6     2D48, marked for identification.

 7             MR. GROOME:

 8        Q.   Sir, before the break, we were talking about a person by the name

 9     of Dragoljub Stakic.  My question for you is, did he live in Krtinska in

10     1992?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Did you see him this night?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   When did you last see him?

15        A.   You mean in recent days?

16        Q.   Yes.

17        A.   Well, I saw him driving some machinery into the base.  That's

18     that last thing.

19        Q.   How long ago was the last time you saw him?

20        A.   Some five or six days ago.

21        Q.   Now, just returning for a second to Serb holidays, another Serb

22     holiday that's celebrated very close to Holy Trinity is the feast of

23     St. George, which is celebrated on the 6th of May every year.  Is that

24     not correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 3745

 1        Q.   Now, earlier in your testimony, you were describing this relative

 2     Zjelko Popadic who died prior to this feast of the Holy Trinity.  What

 3     relationship is Zjelko Popadic to Milojko Popadic?

 4        A.   You mean as a cousin or relative?

 5        Q.   Yes.  What is the relationship between the two?

 6        A.   That is a nephew, his cousin's son.

 7        Q.   So Zjelko Popadic is Milojko Popadic's nephew?

 8        A.   Yes.  Yes.

 9        Q.   Now, earlier today at transcript page 40, lines 7 to 8, you said:

10     "I was sitting outside on the terrace" of your house with guests.  Can I

11     ask you to list for us, who were the guests that were sitting on your

12     terrace that evening when Sredoje Lukic and Milojko Popadic arrived?  If

13     you remember.

14        A.   Well, since it was already dusk, the kums had left.  Who remained

15     was my sister with her family, waiting for the bus for Obrenovac.

16        Q.   And what's your sister's name?

17        A.   Liposava Kuturovic [phoen] and Kuturovic Dragan.

18        Q.   And any other guests there at that time?

19        A.   And her husband Kuturovic Zivota, but unfortunately he is no

20     longer with us.  These were the inner circle of guests.  Whoever had a

21     car had already left, and they were still waiting for the bus.

22        Q.   Sir, you in part remember which Holy Trinity this was because of

23     its relationship to the start of the war.  Is that not correct?

24        A.   [No interpretation]

25        Q.   Again, we need to have an audible answer that we can record on

Page 3746

 1     the transcript, sir.

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Now, the people of the former Yugoslavia have had the misfortune

 4     of suffering through several wars, correct?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Perhaps the closest the people of Krtinska came to feeling the

 7     effects of war was when a NATO bomb landed right in the village of

 8     Krtinska on the 28th of March of 1999.  Do you recall that event?

 9        A.   28th?  Well, could you repeat, please.

10        Q.   Well, I won't -- let's ignore the date for a minute.  Do you

11     remember a NATO bomb landing unexploded in the village of Krtinska, it

12     was meant for the power plant nearby, but do you remember a bomb actually

13     landing in the village in 1999?

14        A.   No, no.  This was later.  That was 1999.

15        Q.   Yes, that's what I'm talking about, in 1999.  Do you recall an

16     incident where a NATO bomb landed in the village of Krtinska?

17        A.   Yes.  It was power transmission, a line.  One NATO bomb fell

18     there, yes.

19        Q.   And do you also recall not too far from Krtinska, a US Stealth

20     Bomber actually crashed on the territory of Serbia?  Do you recall that,

21     around the same time period?

22        A.   Yes, of course.  Near -- close to Sabac, across the Sava River.

23     Yes, I do remember.  There was a village there.

24        Q.   What's your best memory as to the date when the bomb fell in

25     Krtinska?

Page 3747

 1        A.   Well, it didn't fall on Krtinska.  It fell in a line -- in a

 2     field close to a power transmission line.  As for the date, it's very

 3     difficult.

 4        Q.   Would you have any reason to think I'd be incorrect if I said

 5     that it occurred on the 28th of March of 1999?

 6        A.   Which year?

 7        Q.   1999.

 8        A.   It wasn't March.  It only could have been -- well, I know I was

 9     in the field planting paprikas.  It only could have been in May.

10        Q.   And could it have been another year other than 1999?  Might I be

11     wrong about that as well?

12        A.   Well, this happened during NATO's bombardment.  You're not wrong.

13     I know that I was out in the field planting paprikas, together with my

14     wife, when this happened -- well, it was May, the month of May.

15        Q.   Sir, if this verbal dispute did in fact occur on the first

16     celebration of Holy Trinity after the war, isn't this the war that you

17     really mean, the war that really had an effect on the village of

18     Krtinska, the bombardment in 1999?

19        A.   This is not very clear to me.  What did you mean by that, whether

20     we were in jeopardy?  Could you please expound and explain this?

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Groome, I have some sympathy with the

22     witness.

23             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  The question wasn't very clear to me either.

25             MR. GROOME:  I'll rephrase.

Page 3748

 1        Q.   Sir, you say that one of the ways you fix which Holy Trinity

 2     feast day was its relationship to the war, and my suggestion to you is

 3     that the war that you really remember is the war where a bomb fell not

 4     far from your village in 1999, that the Holy Trinity that you're

 5     referring to is really the first Holy Trinity after the NATO bombardment

 6     of your village.  Is that not correct?

 7        A.   I know what you mean and what you want to ask me.  Well, the

 8     beginning of something is the most tragic thing, and then people grow

 9     used to their circumstances, and we did.  Together with the start of the

10     war, I -- my wife lost her brother's son, I had lost my brother, so these

11     stick out in my memory.  I do remember those events that you refer to,

12     but we'd grown accustomed to such events.  I'm not sure whether I've made

13     myself clear.

14        Q.   You have.  Now, in addition to providing Mr. Sredoje Lukic with

15     an alibi for the 14th of June, you also provide one for later in the

16     month on the 27th of June.  In your statement in paragraph 9, you state

17     that two weeks after the Holy Trinity celebration, the day before

18     Vidovdan celebration, Sredoje Lukic and Niko Vujicic stopped by your

19     home.  Is that correct?  Yes or no if you can.

20        A.   You know how it is.  They didn't come on Vidovdan itself.  I had

21     been in contact with Sredoje Lukic before St. Vitus's Day over the phone

22     a couple of days prior to that.  Prior to that, I used to slaughter pigs

23     for him and after that, as well, and this was what we had discussed.

24        Q.   Sir, a lot of those details are in the statement, so I just have

25     very specific questions, and my question to you is, is that the day

Page 3749

 1     before Vidovdan Day, it's your evidence that Sredoje Lukic and

 2     Niko Vujicic came to your home, correct?

 3        A.   Yes.  They didn't come to my home.  We were in the yard.

 4        Q.   Now, the record records you as saying that you spoke with Sredoje

 5     over the phone.  I thought you had testified earlier that you did not

 6     have a phone in 1992.  Could you please explain?

 7        A.   Yes, I can.  It wasn't a frequent occurrence for people to have

 8     phones in the village.  There were no mobile phones.  There were maybe

 9     one or two or three people in the village who had phones.  But in my

10     company, the oil plant, I had a phone.  The phone number was at the time

11     8721567, and this is the only telephone that I used at the time.

12        Q.   Where was Sredoje Lukic when he was calling you or you called

13     him?  Where was he located at the time you had this conversation by

14     phone?

15        A.   I think that he was in Visegrad.  I don't know, but I think that

16     he was there.

17        Q.   And when did you have this telephone conversation?

18        A.   Some two or three days, so if this -- the dates he was supposed

19     to fetch the meat was 27th, then it was on the 23rd or 24th that we had

20     spoken.  He had asked me whether I could prepare one suckling pig for the

21     freezer, and he said that he would take it to bring home to Visegrad when

22     he would next be coming to Belgrade and this area.

23        Q.   But it's your evidence that on the 23rd or 24th, Sredoje Lukic

24     called you from Visegrad and asked you to prepare a suckling pig for the

25     Vidovdan feast, yes or no?

Page 3750

 1        A.   I don't know whether it was meant for St. Vitus's day, but the

 2     purpose was for him to take it with him over there.

 3        Q.   So he was going to come, collect this suckling pig, and bring it

 4     back to Visegrad and cook it and eat it in Visegrad?  That was your

 5     understanding?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   What time did Sredoje Lukic and Niko Vujicic arrive?

 8        A.   Well, towards the evening in the afternoon, in the afternoon

 9     hours.

10        Q.   What is your best estimate about the time?

11        A.   It was summer time, late afternoon, 6, 7, maybe 6.  I cannot be

12     precise.

13        Q.   Sir, just clarifying something you just said, you said at 49,

14     line 7, that Sredoje Lukic -- I'll quote what the record says:  "He said

15     that he would take it to bring home to Visegrad when he would next be

16     coming to Belgrade and this area."  Do I take from that that it was your

17     understanding that Sredoje Lukic considered Visegrad still his home?  Did

18     he use those words, I'm bringing it home to Visegrad?

19        A.   Most probably, yes.

20        Q.   Okay.  Who else was home at the time that he came for the pig

21     which you had prepared?

22        A.   At my home?

23        Q.   Yes.

24        A.   My wife and me.  Wife and the children, but my wife and I

25     prepared the meat.

Page 3751

 1        Q.   Now, you also say in your statement which is in evidence that

 2     Niko Vujicic also had his family in Obrenovac.  Is that correct?

 3        A.   Well, I do know that they were there.  I'm not close to that

 4     person, Niko.  I knew him through Sredoje.  Maybe I saw him once or twice

 5     very briefly.  On that occasion, he was sitting in the car.  They did not

 6     go out of the car, and I had heard that he had family in a different

 7     street in Obrenovac, in the town.

 8        Q.   Did it appear to you that Sredoje Lukic and Niko Vujicic had a

 9     close relationship?

10        A.   Most probably.  They were driving around together.

11        Q.   Did you know that Niko Vujicic was also a police officer in

12     Visegrad?

13        A.   I heard about that.  I heard that.

14        Q.   Did you also know that Niko Vujicic was also held captive at the

15     same time Sredoje Lukic was?

16        A.   Yes.  Yes.

17        Q.   Sir, now, the Chamber is in possession of a report alleging that

18     both Sredoje Lukic and Niko Vujicic formed a paramilitary group after

19     they were released from captivity.  My question to you is, other than

20     being held captive by Muslims and being tortured and everything,

21     mistreatment, is there anything else that you're aware of that occurred

22     to both of those men?

23             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I'll just let him answer, and then you can ...

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, this was a long question.

25     Happened to them or what they did?  Your question was rather long, too

Page 3752

 1     long for me.

 2             MR. GROOME:

 3        Q.   I'm sorry.  My question to you is, are you aware of anything else

 4     that happened to Niko Vujicic and Sredoje Lukic together, something

 5     similar to being held captive in Visegrad?

 6        A.   I know that they were policemen, but after that, I don't know.  I

 7     can't say.  There's some 200 kilometers between our two respective

 8     cities.

 9        Q.   So your evidence is you're not aware of any other event other

10     than them being held captive that occurred to both Vujicic and

11     Sredoje Lukic?

12        A.   I don't know.  Maybe later.  What I heard was that Niko was

13     wounded, but I can't tell you when.  I can't specify the year.  I really

14     don't know.

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Groome, just a minute.  Mr. Cepic had had a

16     point.  I don't know whether he still wants to make it.

17             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you, Your Honour, but I think the witness

18     clarified that -- I could object.  Thank you.

19             MR. GROOME:

20        Q.   So, sir, again on page 51 at line 18 -- I'll read you your

21     answer.  It's beginning on line 17:  "I know that they were policemen,

22     but after that, I don't know.  I can't say.  There's some 200 kilometers

23     between our two respective cities."

24             Again, this seems to suggest that you see Sredoje Lukic as not

25     living in Krtinska but living in Visegrad.  Am I correct in concluding

Page 3753

 1     that from what you've said here?

 2        A.   Well, he was for a long period at home after he'd been held

 3     captive and came home, thinking that he would not be returning.  I can

 4     explain that.  In that time, he used to go to Belgrade frequently.  His

 5     plans were to find employment there, but as I understood it, since he

 6     could not find a job in Belgrade, he returned most probably to his job in

 7     Visegrad.  I don't know whether that's correct.  Later on, we would see

 8     each other over weekends when he would come.  I don't know when he had

 9     the time to come.

10        Q.   Okay.  So back to the preparation of the meat for Sredoje Lukic,

11     you state that the purpose of Sredoje Lukic stopping by was to tell you

12     that he would be unable to take some meat that you had in your freezer

13     and he had arranged to carry to Visegrad, correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And you say in paragraph 9 of your statement that's now in

16     evidence:  "We had agreed earlier that I would prepare food for them,

17     pork, to be precise, so they could put it in a freezer and bring it to

18     their family in Visegrad."  Correct?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Well, if Niko Vujicic has his family in Obrenovac, if

21     Sredoje Lukic has his family in Krtinska, who is the family they are

22     bringing what sounds to be quite a substantial amount of meat to in

23     Visegrad?

24        A.   Well, I think that Sredoje Lukic had a brother, father, mother

25     over there.  Family also includes parents, not just the wife and the

Page 3754

 1     kids.

 2        Q.   Now, a suckling pig, am I right in thinking that it's something

 3     that can fit into a car?  Is that correct?

 4        A.   Well, it was 120 kilograms reduced to 70, 80 when it was cut up.

 5        Q.   But it is something that would fit on either the backseat of a

 6     car or in the trunk of a car.  Is that not correct?

 7        A.   I couldn't really say.  They did not stop for long, and this was

 8     the point of the whole thing.  I was miffed.  They came and explained,

 9     Brane, sorry, have you to make do with this meat because we cannot

10     transport it.  Now, I have some obligations.  I have some people,

11     passengers to drive.  Sorry, he said.  And then I was upset, thinking,

12     What am I going to do with all that meat?  And he put me in a fait

13     accompli situation.

14        Q.   A suckling pig, how old is the pig?  How many months before a pig

15     is no longer considered a suckling pig?

16        A.   120 kilos, that is a 7- or 8-month up to one-year-old pig, 120

17     kilograms.

18        Q.   And that would fit into the trunk of a car; am I not correct?

19        A.   Well, he can fit.

20        Q.   It can fit into the trunk of a car.  Is that correct?  Again, we

21     need --

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Now --

24        A.   Yes, it can.

25        Q.   Now, you've said that Sredoje Lukic said he could not take the

Page 3755

 1     suckling pig back to Visegrad because he had some passengers in his car,

 2     correct?

 3        A.   Yes.  Supposed to take that over, but I did not see at the time

 4     whether there were or not, or he was supposed to pick somebody up.

 5        Q.   I believe you say in your statement that he took -- there were

 6     two acquaintances that were supposed to also go back to Visegrad with

 7     him, correct?

 8        A.   Well, he said that he was supposed to pick some people up.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Now -- and he told you that he was leaving for Visegrad

10     early the next morning on Vidovdan Day, correct?

11        A.   Well, whether he left immediately or on the next morning, I

12     cannot really say.  They just started the engine and left.  Whether they

13     went to this apartment in the street adjacent to mine, I don't know.  I

14     cannot tell you -- [No interpretation]

15        Q.   The interpretation stopped.  Let me just wait a moment to see.

16     Is there a difficulty --

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  May I ask the interpreter whether he or she

18     wishes to have the witness conclude the sentence so we can get the end of

19     it.

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Yes, please.

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  Witness, would you please just repeat the

22     end of what you are saying.  Yes, you, witness.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was saying -- I was saying I was

24     in an awkward position, not knowing what to do with the meat that he was

25     supposed to collect.  I didn't know where they were going.  He was

Page 3756

 1     supposed to pay me for the meat and collect it.

 2        Q.   Did he ever actually then come back and pick up this meat?

 3        A.   Yes.  Yes.

 4        Q.   When did he do that?

 5        A.   The next weekend he came, I cannot remember exactly now, but I

 6     know the meat was placed in the freezer.  We crammed it in there somehow,

 7     and the next time he came to visit his family, he collected it.

 8        Q.   Well, sir, then my question to you is, if the meat wasn't for

 9     Vidovdan, and you're not sure when it was that he came back to collect

10     the meat, how are you so sure that he first came to tell you he could not

11     take the meat the day before Vidovdan?  Why are you so sure about that?

12        A.   Well, he couldn't come the next day after St. Vitus Day because I

13     wouldn't be working.  I wouldn't be open on St. Vitus Day.  Nobody works.

14     It's a big holiday.  That's how I remember.  I remember it also because

15     he created problems for me.

16        Q.   Now, sir, did you see his wife or children either this day or the

17     next day, Vidovdan Day?

18        A.   The next day.

19        Q.   You did see his wife.  Where did you see his wife?

20        A.   Around where she lives, my second house.  My wife or I would

21     regularly go there once or twice a day because we had some animals there,

22     a small farm that I kept up.  I sold animals to complement my salary.

23     The salaries were very low at that time.

24        Q.   Now, when he came to your house to tell you that he was not

25     taking the meat, did he mention to you where he was earlier in the day?

Page 3757

 1        A.   He didn't tell me anything then, not where he had been or where

 2     he was going, but when we talked on the phone, he told me he was supposed

 3     to come to Belgrade, to come our way.

 4        Q.   How was he dressed when he came?

 5        A.   You mean in civilian clothes or in -- he was in civilian clothes.

 6     Summer clothes.

 7        Q.   Now, sir, we made a request of your government for your criminal

 8     record, and we were provided with the information about two prior

 9     convictions that you have.  They are some years ago, so I don't want to

10     spend too much time on them, but I do want to ask you a question about --

11     a very brief question about them.  The first is an offense entitled,

12     "Serious criminal offenses against public safety causing the death of one

13     or more persons and damaging of safety equipment at working sites out of

14     negligence," in violation of Article 194, paragraph 4, and Article 189,

15     paragraph 3, of the Criminal Code of the Republic of Serbia.  Your

16     conviction was on the 4th of April, 1984.

17             Am I correct in concluding from the title of the conviction that

18     a person died as a result of your conduct?  Yes.

19        A.   It is difficult to talk about, but it was not a fatality that was

20     involved.  I was responsible just as manager in that factory.  The man

21     stepped on a conveyor belt that was not properly installed.  The

22     maintenance service did not install it properly, and it ripped his leg

23     off.  I was given a two-year suspended sentence.  That man is not dead.

24     He's still alive.  He works as a receptionist in my company.  That's the

25     real truth.

Page 3758

 1        Q.   Okay.  I accept that.  Sir, you -- the record also says that you

 2     served a sentence of five months' imprisonment and then were placed on

 3     two years of parole.  Is that true?

 4        A.   Correct.  I said suspended sentence.  I did not serve the

 5     sentence, but if something had happened on top of it, then I would have.

 6     I was really convicted, although I had nothing to do with the incident,

 7     but still I --

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cepic, do you have something?

 9             MR. CEPIC:  Sometimes I have a feeling that my learned friend

10     Mr. Groome doesn't know the system of sanctions in my country.  Witness

11     already clarified that.  But witness already clarified that.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Why don't you educate him privately?

13             MR. CEPIC:  I'll try that.  I'll try that.

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Groome, you're coming to an end now?

15             MR. GROOME:  I'm not too -- just one and a half more pages,

16     Your Honour.

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  One and a half more pages.  Now, I neglected to

18     say at the outset that in the last session, if there is one, my two

19     colleagues will be sitting under 15 bis to allow me to carry out other

20     duties.  And in fact, I was hoping to finish at 12 to give myself some

21     time for preparation.

22             MR. GROOME:  I certainly will be finished with this witness

23     before that time, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

25             MR. GROOME:

Page 3759

 1        Q.   Sir, the second conviction is from the 18th of November, 1993,

 2     during the war, and the conviction was for a violation of Article 161,

 3     paragraph 2, entitled, "Forest theft with the aim of selling the timber

 4     cut."  In this case, the information we were provided indicated that you

 5     were sentenced to three months with a two-year period of parole.  Is it

 6     correct that this conviction arises from illegal logging activities that

 7     you were engaged in?

 8        A.   There is some truth in that.  I cut my own trees, which were not

 9     registered.  Those were my trees.  When the ranger came, he seized the

10     timber and I was punished because I had not registered it.  It was my

11     wood up to the Sava River, and I was punished because I had not

12     registered it.  It was safe to log, but ...

13        Q.   Okay.  I'm finished with that line of inquiry.  And I want to ask

14     you, your first meeting with Mr. Cepic was arranged by Mr. Popadic.  Is

15     that not correct?

16        A.   Well, I don't know whether he arranged it.  I saw Cepic in that

17     yard, the yard of my parents where Sredoje used to live.  Now I'm

18     building a small workshop there.  Popadic was coming up, and there was a

19     man with him.  That man said, I am the Defence counsel of Sredoje Lukic,

20     could I talk to you please, and that's how we met.  And in the

21     conversation, it came up that he asked me, Did Sredoje used to live here?

22     I said yes, and so on.

23        Q.   And that was in the summer of 2007, correct?

24        A.   Yes.  August, I think.

25        Q.   And they met you in front of your home?

Page 3760

 1        A.   In the yard of the house where Sredoje used to live, my second

 2     house.

 3        Q.   Now, once Mr. Popadic introduced Mr. Cepic to you, he didn't

 4     leave.  He remained there when you spoke with Mr. Cepic.  Is that not

 5     correct?

 6        A.   Well, I cannot tell you exactly.  I think Popadic went to see my

 7     son and the workers who were busy a bit further down setting up some nets

 8     and I don't know what.  I think Cepic and I were talking on our own.

 9        Q.   The statement that is now in evidence is dated the 5th of

10     January, 2008.  Do you remember giving it?

11        A.   This year, yes.  Yes, the 5th, between Christmas and New Year.

12        Q.   The other witness statements are dated in November 2007.  Was

13     there a reason that you were unavailable to, well, give a statement until

14     January 2008?

15             MR. CEPIC:  Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

17             MR. CEPIC:  How could this witness know where other witnesses

18     gave the statement?

19             MR. GROOME:  I'm asking him whether he was unavailable.

20             MR. CEPIC: [Overlapping speakers] ... base for this question.

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  The question that was asked was, was there a

22     reason that you were unavailable to give a statement in January 2008.  Is

23     that the question you're --

24             MR. GROOME:  The question is, Your Honour, whether he was

25     unavailable prior to January of 2008 to give a statement.

Page 3761

 1             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, so what's the problem with that?

 2             MR. CEPIC:  Yes, but Mr. Groome also quoted that other witnesses

 3     gave the statements in November, why you did not give the statement in

 4     November?  This is ...

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, but the question is, was there a reason why

 6     you were unavailable to give a statement until January 2008.  Can you

 7     answer that, Witness?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can.  I have huge obligations,

 9     the farming, the work, the shop, caring for my child, health concerns, et

10     cetera.  When you put all that together, he - that's true - called and

11     tried several times to make an appointment, but I couldn't make it, and

12     then on the 5th of January, I went to see him.  He did -- he had called

13     me in November or December, I don't know, asking me to come over, and I

14     couldn't make it then.  But when the season, the working season had

15     already passed, that's when I could make it.

16             MR. GROOME:

17        Q.   Do you -- who was present when you gave your statement in January

18     2008?

19        A.   The lawyer, Mr. Cepic, in his office.

20        Q.   Now, on the 5th of June, 2008, my investigator had made an

21     appointment to interview you.  Do you remember that appointment being

22     made?

23        A.   I do.

24        Q.   And after they interviewed the person just before you, I believe

25     it was Mr. Popadic, we were informed that you would not be coming to the

Page 3762

 1     interview.  Why did you not come to the interview that had been arranged?

 2        A.   Well, a moment ago I tried to explain that I have a great

 3     workload.  It was the season where I had a lot of work, and I was not in

 4     the greatest of health at that time.  The doctor had sent me to make an

 5     EKG, and I took a long time, and when I came back home, my children told

 6     me that somebody had asked for me on the phone.  I thought they would

 7     call back the next day or the day after, but they did not.

 8        Q.   So is the reason that you did not come for that scheduled

 9     interview because you had too much work or because you were ill?

10        A.   Well, I was a bit ill, and perhaps it's my fault I didn't

11     understand it that seriously.  I thought, Who would ever want me,

12     Branko Bugarski, to come to The Hague?  I don't know if you understand

13     me.  I did not really understand the matter.  It's entirely my fault.

14        Q.   Okay.  We were told that you were experiencing a heart problem

15     along with high blood pressure and that you would be unavailable for a

16     period of days to be interviewed.  That's what we were told.  Is that

17     accurate?

18        A.   Most probably, yes, and even now if you took my blood pressure,

19     it would be 120, 115 at least.

20        Q.   Sir, at the beginning of my examination of you I asked you about

21     your health, and you said aside from the high blood pressure, you were in

22     good health.  So was this the first time you had a problem with your

23     heart, the day of this interview?

24        A.   No.  I hadn't properly understood you.  I thought you meant

25     whether I'm feeling fine now.  Maybe I misunderstood, but there are

Page 3763

 1     enough documents as far as that is concerned.

 2        Q.   Sir, the last line of questioning that I have for you has to do

 3     with the media coverage that surrounded this case, and what I want to

 4     explore with you is, why -- if you knew this information and you were

 5     good friends with Sredoje Lukic, why did it take so long for you to come

 6     forward with information that could have helped exonerate an innocent

 7     man?

 8        A.   Well, I do feel guilty about that.  I hadn't really understood it

 9     properly.

10        Q.   So you were aware of the many media articles and television shows

11     that covered not only this case because the Vasiljevic case which deals

12     with some similar events.  You were aware of the media coverage and that

13     Sredoje Lukic was accused of some very serious crimes?

14        A.   Well, the media are the media.

15        Q.   But you were aware from the media that Sredoje Lukic was charged

16     with crimes, that he had been arrested, that there was some consideration

17     of sending the case to Bosnia.  You were aware of all of that from the

18     media, were you not?

19        A.   Well, yes, but I hadn't understood that it was really the way it

20     was and that I can be of any help.  But later, I understood.

21        Q.   And who was the first person to make you understand that what you

22     had information about could help Sredoje Lukic?

23        A.   Well, as Cepic came and made inquiries, from that time on I

24     started thinking that it's a serious matter -- I mean, at first I --

25     that's the first time I understood it, really.  Until then, I was too

Page 3764

 1     involved in my work.

 2        Q.   How many times did you speak with Mr. Popadic about this case?

 3        A.   With Popadic about this case?  He is a haulier.  He often travels

 4     chasing income.  I am trying to make ends meet in another way.

 5        Q.   Sir, my question is very specific.  How many times have you

 6     spoken to Mr. Popadic about this case?

 7        A.   Well, from time to time when we were in contact sometimes, I

 8     can't tell you now how many times.

 9        Q.   Once a week?  Once a month?

10        A.   Perhaps we saw each other once a month.  My wife went to see them

11     more often.  In winter, possibly we could see each other more often than

12     in the summer.

13        Q.   And would you discuss with him your account of these events from

14     June of 1992?

15        A.   Maybe -- I don't know.  Maybe we talked.  I asked him if he

16     remembered that Sredoje had come.  I mean, it was recently, and he

17     said -- I don't know.  Who can remember all these things?

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Groome, you must be bringing the

19     cross-examination to an end now.

20             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.  Just a couple of more questions.

21        Q.   When you asked him if he remembered that Sredoje had come, what

22     did he say?

23        A.   He wasn't able to tell me.  He couldn't answer me because he

24     wasn't at home.  He's always on the road; he's a haulier.  And why would

25     I have to ask him when I know myself that it was on the eve of a great

Page 3765

 1     holiday, Vidovdan, St. Vitus Day?  It's a big deal for us.

 2        Q.   Did you travel here to The Hague with Mr. Popadic?

 3        A.   By plane, yes.  We did.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  I have no further questions.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cepic.

 6             MR. CEPIC:  Maybe just a few questions, Your Honour, with your

 7     leave.

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Just before you ask the questions.  Witness, I'm

 9     not sure whether you understood the line of questioning from the

10     Prosecutor, but let me make it plain to you that what the Prosecutor is

11     saying is that your whole evidence is nothing but a tissue of lies and

12     that you are lying because Sredoje Lukic is your friend.  What do you say

13     to that?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What can I answer to that?  It's

15     not true that it's a tissue of lies.

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Have you come here to lie to protect your

17     friend?  Because remember, you took an oath.  You made a declaration to

18     speak the truth.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And nothing but the truth.  In a

20     few days, I'll turn 60.  I would not have come here to tell lies.  I know

21     this man as a good man, a sociable man, always ready to share a good

22     joke.  I never knew him as a criminal.  It's only for that reason that I

23     made this long journey.  I have many things to do in my life.  I don't

24     want to lie.  I have my family.  I have children.  I have grandchildren.

25     That's a hard thing to say.

Page 3766

 1             JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues]

 2             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you, Your Honour, no questions.

 3             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Witness, that concludes your evidence.  Let me

 4     just explain that I'm not saying that you're lying.  I haven't reached

 5     the stage in the proceedings where I have to make a decision on that.

 6     I'm explaining to you what the Prosecutor was trying to say.  I'm putting

 7     it to you very bluntly and squarely that what he was saying is that the

 8     whole thing, your whole evidence is nothing but a concoction, a

 9     fabrication, and you have said, No, it is not.  Is that right?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what to say.  You told

11     me that I'm lying.

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  No, no.  I didn't tell you that you are lying.

13     What I told you is that the effect of the cross-examination is a

14     suggestion that you're lying.  I am not yet at the stage of the

15     proceedings where I have to make a decision as to whether you're a

16     witness of truth or whether you're telling lies.  But what the

17     cross-examiner, what the Prosecutor was in effect saying to you, although

18     he didn't put it as bluntly as I have, is that your whole evidence is

19     fabricated in order to protect your friend, and you have said no.

20             So we'll leave it at that, and I thank you on behalf of the

21     Chamber for coming to the Tribunal.  You have come from far.  I thank you

22     for coming to give evidence.  It is now over, and you may now leave.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I just say one thing?  It's the

24     first time in my life that somebody's telling me in my face I'm lying.

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  You did not understand me, but let us leave it

Page 3767

 1     at that.  You may now leave.

 2                           [The witness withdrew]

 3             MR. CEPIC:  If I may add, Your Honour, about the word "lying," in

 4     our law system, I had very long discussion with Honourable Judge Bonomy

 5     in a previous case about that matter.  Because in our country, if you say

 6     to someone -- if you say to someone that he's lying, of course, the

 7     witness did not understand in the proper way, maybe, maybe, but in our

 8     system it's completely different.  So I can speak about that hours and

 9     hours, and as I said, I had discussion about that issue in the previous

10     case.

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Why is it different?  Explain to me.

12             MR. CEPIC:  In a court is not allowed to say to someone that he's

13     lying, firstly, in procedure.  It is strictly forbidden.

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  And that's part of your -- that's part of the

15     legal system in Yugoslavia?

16             MR. CEPIC:  Yes, precisely and very strictly.  And one of the

17     worst word if you're going to say to someone is that he is a liar or she

18     is a liar, and even if you find that in a judgement, you know, you're

19     using the word --

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Well, it's precisely opposite in the adversarial

21     system.  It's common practice at the end of a cross-examination, such as

22     that which was conducted very vigorously by Mr. Groome, to put to the

23     witness that your whole evidence is nothing but a tissue of lies.  That's

24     Mr. Groome's case, and so I was putting it to him, that that is what

25     Mr. Groome was in fact saying, that he's not a witness of truth, but

Page 3768

 1     perhaps that is a more sanitized way of putting it.

 2             MR. CEPIC:  Your Honour, I'm familiar with that.

 3             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  You're familiar with it now.

 4             MR. CEPIC:  No, I'm completely confident that my witness speaks

 5     the truth --

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Mr. Cepic, please speak into the mic.

 7             MR. CEPIC:  I'm sorry.  I'm sorry.  I'm completely confident

 8     about my witness.  Hundred per cent confident.

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Of course.  Of course you are.

10             MR. CEPIC:  But in relation to that issue, I just tried to give

11     some clarification --

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  No, I heard that before that in many civil law

13     countries, it's not proper to put to the witness that he's lying.  I

14     won't comment on that.

15             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Our next -- could we go to

16     private session, please?

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Private session, yes.

18                           [Private session]

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

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11  Pages 3769-3770 redacted. Private session.















Page 3771

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 11.54 a.m.,

 4                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 9th day of

 5                           December, 2008, at 8.50 a.m.