1 Wednesday, 17 December 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 8.53 a.m.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Dieckmann, I understand you have a
6 preliminary mater to raise.
7 MR. DIECKMANN: Your Honours, good morning. Thank you. First of
8 all, it's relating to the document 2D48. 2D48 was tendered through
9 witness Branimir Bugarski on the 2nd December, 2008, and because of
10 incorrect CLSS translation, 2D48 is marked for identification pending a
11 correct translation. The correct translation was received on the 5th
12 December and uploaded into the e-court system under the number 2D05-0312.
13 Immediately, all parties were informed, and on 10th December, 2008, the
14 Prosecution informed us that they accept the new translation. Therefore,
15 the Defence asks for the admission of this exhibit now.
16 MR. GROOME: I have no objection, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's admitted.
18 MR. DIECKMANN: Thank you.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit 2D45 [sic] will become --
20 admitted into evidence.
21 MR. DIECKMANN: Secondly, I would like to ask if we can go in
22 private session.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Private session.
24 [Private session]
8 [Open session]
9 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.
10 MR. DIECKMANN: I've just seen on page 1, line 19, I think the
11 exhibit number is 2D48, not 45.
12 THE REGISTRAR: That is correct, Your Honour. Apologies.
13 MR. DIECKMANN: That's all. Thank you very much.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Mr. Alarid, please call your first
16 MR. ALARID: Your Honour, Mr. Ivetic will be handling the first
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well.
19 MR. IVETIC: Good morning, Your Honours. I would call Mr. Zeljko
20 Markovic to the stand.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: What's the time estimate, Mr. Ivetic?
22 MR. IVETIC: I think I should be between one hour and one and a
23 half hours, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.
25 [The witness entered court]
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
3 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may begin, Mr. Ivetic.
5 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 WITNESS: ZELJKO MARKOVIC
7 [Witness answered through interpreter]
8 Examination by Mr. Ivetic:
9 Q. Good day, sir. As you know, I'm Dan Ivetic, one of the attorneys
10 for Milan Lukic, and for purposes of the record, I would ask you to
11 please introduce yourself briefly.
12 A. Good morning, Your Honours. My name is Zeljko Markovic. I was
13 born on the 15th of January, 1967, in Pljevlja in Republic of Montenegro
14 I'm married, father of 2. I graduated from a faculty in Belgrade and I
15 worked for 20 years as a police officer in the Republic of Serbia MUP
16 until I was invalided out. I worked in Belgrade.
17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The witness is kindly
18 asked to slow down.
19 MR. IVETIC:
20 Q. Thank you, sir, and again, if you could stay close to the
21 microphone, the translators are asking for that. You've already told us
22 about some of the factors from your background. Could you please give us
23 some background as to your educational history?
24 A. After I completed the secondary school in Bijela Polje in
1 faculty of mathematics and natural science. I graduated in geography,
2 and then I specialized at the same faculty. I specialized in maritime
4 Q. Thank you. And you mentioned that you have 20 years experience
5 as a police officer in the Republic of Serbia MUP. I would ask you in
6 this regard if you could enlighten us as to whether or not the MUP in
7 Republic of Serbia
8 educational faculty or college in Obrenovac.
9 A. The MUP of the Republic of Serbia
10 have any faculty, not only in Obrenovac but in the Republic of Serbia
11 There was no faculty. There was just the post-secondary college in
12 Saradusna [phoen] Street. That's where it is now, and after a while in
13 1992 or maybe even 2000, I'm not quite sure, a faculty of -- the security
14 faculty was set up by the institute of security in Banica [phoen], so
15 that was the only faculty of the MUP of the Republic of Serbia
16 exists, and the higher school, the post-secondary school in Zemun. There
17 is also the secondary school in Kamenica near Novi Sad which is a MUP
18 facility, and there is a small boarding school for police trainees in
19 Klis near Novi Sad
21 Obrenovac. There are other secondary schools, I'm sure about that.
22 Q. Thank you, sir, and I'm waiting to allow the English translation
23 and the transcript to catch up with us, so if I have a pause, that's why
24 it is.
25 Now, one more question on that topic. What precise job position
1 did you have in the year 1992 within the Serbian MUP?
2 A. I held several jobs. I first started out as a police officer, as
3 a beat policeman in the MUP of Republic of Serbia until I graduated, so
4 my posts changed as time went by. In 1992, I worked in the unit
5 providing security to the republican organs of the Republic of Serbia
7 Q. Thank you, sir, and again, I'm just waiting for the transcript.
8 And for the complete picture, you mentioned you were subjected to an
9 invalid pension from the MUP. Could you -- retirement or pensia. If you
10 could tell us, are you currently employed in any other field or position?
11 A. No. No. I'm not willing, I'm not able to work because I have an
12 injury in my leg, the right hip, to be more specific, because I was in a
13 traffic accident. It was a serious accident. It happened in 2003, and
14 since 2005, the 21st of June, I have been retired and I am not able to
15 engage in any kind of work.
16 Q. Thank you, sir, and if you could just tell us where you resided
17 in the year 1992 and if you resided alone or if anyone resided with you.
18 A. Well, from the time that I arrived in Belgrade when I got the job
19 after I left the campus where I had been staying during my studies, I
20 changed apartments several times. I rented apartments. In 1992, I lived
21 in Zemun, in Banjicka [phoen] Street. The number is 35. I lived with my
22 wife's grandmother, Angelina Klincov. That's the grandmother's name. My
23 wife's name is Natasa. It was a small outhouse in the yard, and I lived
24 there with my wife, Natasa. We've lived together since the 7th of June,
1 Q. Thank you, sir. And now I'd ask you to tell us, please, if you
2 know Milan Lukic, that is to say the gentleman sitting right behind me.
3 A. I know Mr. Milan Lukic very well. We met in 1987 in Studenski
4 Grad, the halls of residence in Belgrade
5 lived there. Mr. Milan Lukic often came to visit the Studenski Grad
6 facility. He didn't live there in the halls of residence, but he came to
7 see his brother Novica, who lived in the same building where I did. And
8 since Novica socialized with my friends from Bijela Polje and since he
9 often came to their room, room number 38, in this building in Studenski
10 Grad, that's how I met Milan
11 Q. Thank you. And with respect to Mr. Milan Lukic, did you have
12 occasion to socialize with him on those occasions when he came to visit
13 his brother Novica, and if, so how frequently and what types of
15 A. Well, Milan
16 soon started socializing quite extensively, not only I but also some
17 other friends of mine, colleagues, students from Bijelo Polje who studied
18 with me at the time, and since Milan
19 athlete, in other words - and I used to play football, too, back in
20 Bijelo Polje, it was easy for us to find common ground as a basis for our
21 friendship. He was very communicative. He always had a smile on his
22 face, and I liked it. So I socialized with him more than I did with his
23 brother Novica. I merely knew his brother. We were acquainted.
24 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, if I could ask you, from the time period
25 between 1987 until 1992, did Milan Lukic remain, remain in Belgrade that
1 entire time period or not?
2 A. Well, I stayed in Studenski Grad until 1989. That's when I got a
3 job, in September, and that's when I left, but up until 1989, about a
4 year, a year and a half, Milan
5 after that, as far as I know, he went to Germany - at least, that's what
6 he told me - and then to Switzerland
7 Studenski Grad. I was not there as often as I was before, but I remember
8 that once or twice, I saw him there in Studenski Grad.
9 Q. And did you -- if you could clarify for us -- waiting for the
10 translation to catch up, but if you could clarify for us, did you see
11 Milan Lukic after he left Yugoslavia
12 doing in Europe
13 A. Well, I saw him. I don't know what year that was, perhaps 1989
14 or 1990 or thereabouts, while he was in Germany, and he told me that he
15 played football in some league in Germany and that he was a waiter, a
16 barman. And then our next meeting was in 1992, the one that I really
17 remember. So ...
18 Q. Okay. We'll get to that. Now, if you could describe the Milan
19 Lukic that you knew from the days in the student city, the Milan Lukic
20 that went to Europe
21 him as a person and in his interactions with other people?
22 A. As a person in context with other people, I would describe him as
23 a paragon of gentleman-like behavior, if I could use those terms. All
24 the friends, all the students who met him were astonished and
25 enthusiastic about him. He was -- on the one hand, he was always quiet
1 and not pushy, but on the other hand he was friendly. He was always a
2 modest person. He lived with modest means, and he used to sell bottles
3 of juice for food vouchers and then he would take those to the bus
4 station and sell them there in order to get by. But he would always
5 invite us for a drink, although he was a student himself.
6 Q. Thank you, sir. Again, we're just waiting for the transcript to
7 catch up. I apologize. It's one of the nuances of this courtroom.
8 How would you describe how Milan Lukic acted towards persons of
9 different ethnic groups? That is to say, did he treat people differently
10 based on what ethnic group they belonged to?
11 A. Let me give you a specific example. I was in room 42 in
12 Studenski Grad. There were three roommates. There were four of us, all
13 told. One of them was a Montenegrin, the same ethnic background as I
14 was, and the other two were Muslims from Bijelo Polje. I can even give
15 you the names. He knew them and he socialized them in the same way in
16 which he did with me. I never saw any traces of intolerance in him
17 towards any people of other ethnic backgrounds, religion, or race.
18 Q. And --
19 A. And I can even give you the names of those students. Mersud
20 Lakic, my roommate; he got a master's degree in molecular biology in
22 lives in the United States of America. Also, Saladin Udzevic [phoen],
23 also from Bijelo Polje. We would all hang out together, we would play
24 various card games and we had -- we would have a drink.
25 Q. Thank you. Now, you mentioned earlier that you recalled an
1 occasion in 1992 when you had contact with Milan Lukic who had returned
2 from Europe
3 in 1992 that you have a recollection of?
4 A. It was in late April or early May when he came back from
6 because his mother was sick. He told me that he had to take his mother
7 from Visegrad there. I don't know how he planned to do that because it
8 was wartime at that time there, and he didn't have any means of
9 transportation. That was in late April, early May. I know well that I
10 saw him in Studenski Grad on the 5th of May. I went to the photocopy
11 office there to photocopy some books because my wife and I were students
12 at the time and there was a photocopy office there which was cheaper, and
13 all students used this facility.
14 We met there, and we went to a cafe called Index, which is in the
15 immediate vicinity of Studenski Grad. That was our custom from our
16 student days to go there, to the Index cafe. It was nothing special, but
17 it did have an advantage for students because all students who got the
18 best mark in any subjects at their university would get a free hamburger
19 and Coke, for him or her and their friends. And that's why we went
20 there. It was just a habit. I think that there was an Albanian who was
21 the owner of the cafe. I don't know the name. I just knew this man by
22 sight. This cafe still exists.
23 We sat down. It was the 5th of May in the afternoon, and he
24 says, I don't know what to do, can you help me, can you find some vehicle
25 that I could use to go to Visegrad and fetch my mother. And I told him,
1 I don't have a car. In fact, I did have a car, but I crashed it. It was
2 in Montenegro
3 have -- I said I didn't have anyone else to ask because nobody wanted to
4 lend their car for such a long-distance trip. And he said -- and I said,
5 the only thing I can do was to go to a car rental shop. I knew an owner
6 of one of the car rental shops. It was called Tref, in Sava Centre, and
7 I suggested to him that he should wait for me a couple of minutes in
8 Index because I should go to my house, change into my uniform because the
9 owner would not remember me if I didn't -- if I wasn't in uniform. He
10 knew me because he knew that I provided security in Sava Centre where the
11 third channel of Belgrade TV was. That was the main reason, and that's
12 how I got to know the owner.
13 I took a taxi. I lived close by. I went home. I put on my
14 police uniform. I didn't even go to Index. He got out immediately. We
15 went down to Sava Centre, to this car rental shop.
16 Q. If we could just back up for a second to get a full picture. You
17 indicated this was the 5th of May. Is there a reason that this date
18 relating to this particular instance is clear in your mind?
19 A. I was about to say that. It was easy for me to remember the 5th
20 of May because the 6th of May in Serbia
21 families with the name of Markovic is St. George's Day, the Markovic
22 family patron saint's day. Every 6th of May, unless something
23 extraordinary happens to prevent me, I go to my native Vodno near
24 Pljevlja, where my entire family celebrates St. George's Day at my
25 uncle's house. The custom is to celebrate in the house of the eldest
1 brother, and since my uncle was the eldest brother in the family, we did
2 it there. So I remember the 5th of May well because on the 6th of May I
3 was unable to attend this celebration because I had to go elsewhere, and
4 I'll explain that later.
5 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, could you go back to telling us how it was
6 that you and Mr. Milan Lukic went about obtaining an automobile for this
7 trip to Visegrad to fetch his mother.
8 A. Well, I started to explain. I took that taxi, put on my uniform,
9 and when we reached students' town, he got out of that Cafe Index, and we
10 continued towards the congress centre called Sava Centre.
11 Q. And what happened when you reached the rental car company?
12 A. When we got to the congress centre, we found a girl working at
13 the agency, a girl I didn't know particularly. We said we needed a car
14 for a day or two to go to Visegrad, how much that would be, et cetera.
15 She answered that she did not dare to give us a car. The owner forbade
16 it because she had heard it was a war zone there in Bosnia, because they
17 feared that the car would be damaged or never be returned to the owner.
18 I asked her if she could fetch the owner, named Vlada, to talk to me.
19 She dialed the phone. He must have been somewhere around in the congress
20 centre, and he showed up 20 minutes later.
21 So when the owner came, I told him the whole story. I said my
22 friend came back from Switzerland
23 Visegrad, get his mother, drive back. There will be no problem. He'll
24 come back with the car. He's a nice guy. The owner was not really
25 thrilled, but at one point, Milan
1 Swiss francs, and then the owner changed his mind. He said, pointing to
2 me, I'll give you the car for his sake. He's the guarantor. He knew me
3 because I worked as a security guard there, and of course he knew I was
4 employed with the police.
5 So he issued the car in my name, and I was the one who eventually
6 returned it.
7 Q. Okay. Now, if I could ask you, you indicated you were in your
8 official police uniform. How was Milan Lukic dressed that day while you
9 were in Belgrade
10 A. Milan Lukic was always in casual, sporty clothes. On that day,
11 he was wearing a suede jacket and jeans. That suede jacket was more like
12 a dress jacket, but it was in fact an ordinary, casual jacket.
13 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, could you describe for us what type of
14 vehicle you ended up renting?
15 A. Of course. It was a Volkswagen Golf 2, white with a Belgrade
16 license plate, but I can't tell you the number. I really can't tell you
17 the number because I don't remember even my own license plate, because
18 every time I have to pay the parking metre, I have to look again at my
19 own license plate in order to type it into my mobile phone for the
20 parking fee SMS message.
21 Q. Now, if I can ask you, when was it that you agreed to set out
22 with Milan
23 for Visegrad, and did you tell your family where you were going, that you
24 were in fact going to Visegrad?
25 A. Well, that day when we took the car, it became clear that I had
1 to go with the car because it was my responsibility. The owner released
2 the car in my name, and Milan Lukic could not drive alone with papers in
3 my name. And I told my family when I came back, that is, I told my wife
4 when I came back from the congress centre that I was going, but I didn't
5 tell her I was going to Visegrad. I told her I took the car because I
6 was going to attend that patron saint's celebration because, because as I
7 told her, no other transport was available. There were no other bus
8 tickets, et cetera, so I had to take a car. Anyway, I did that to
9 alleviate her fears because otherwise, she would be afraid if I had told
10 her where exactly I was going.
11 Q. When you set out -- first of all, what was the route that you
12 took and the precise date and approximate time when you set out?
13 A. Well, we set out in the morning at 7 a.m., meeting outside the
14 students' town. He was waiting for me by the traffic lights, since I
15 didn't know exactly where he lived in the neighborhood of Bezanijska
16 Kosa, which was very new at the time. I wasn't familiar with the layout,
17 with the streets. It was easier to meet outside students' town.
18 We set out at 7 a.m.
19 Street in Belgrade
20 Uzice. On the way, we made a short stop at Ovcar-Kablar Gorge, a few
21 kilometers after Cacak in the direction of Uzicka Pozega. We stopped
22 there for 30 minutes at a restaurant called Njegos.
23 Q. Okay.
24 A. We had breakfast and as I remember clearly, the restaurant is
25 call Njegos because it serves some Montenegrin delicacies. Among them,
1 njegusi steak, which I had for breakfast, and Milan had a light
2 breakfast, like an omelette. He wasn't very hungry.
3 Q. Could you tell us, did you have an occasion to encounter any
4 check points or roadblocks on the way from Belgrade to the administrative
5 border with Bosnia-Herzegovina?
6 A. On the territory of Serbia
7 roadblocks at least, so we had a free passage. There were routine
8 traffic controls, and we were stopped somewhere by Sevojno at one of
9 them, but it was just to check the papers for the car and the driver's
10 license, no other questions asked.
11 Q. All right. If I can back up a bit, you had mentioned that Milan
12 had offered some 1.000 Swiss francs for this vehicle. What was the
13 economic situation in 1992 in the Republic of Serbia
14 could relate that to your own personal experiences or knowledge relating
15 to your police salary, et cetera.
16 A. Of course I can explain, because that time remains etched in my
17 memory. The 1.000 Swiss francs were made as a deposit, not a payment, by
19 real catastrophe. There was a galloping inflation, and I can give you an
20 example because life was very hard for me at that time, so I remember it
21 well. When I received my monthly salary, by the end of the day that
22 entire salary could buy only one German mark, and that's what we did. I
23 was a tenant in my apartment. My rent was 40 Deutschmark, and I could
24 buy only one Deutschmark on payday from street dealers. The very next
25 morning, that salary couldn't buy you a loaf of bread. That's how bad
1 the inflation was. So 1.000 Swiss francs was a treasure, great wealth.
2 Q. Thank you, sir. Again, I'm just waiting for the transcript to
3 catch up with us. Now, if we could turn to your recitation of the trip
4 with Milan
5 anything happened at the administrative border between Bosnia-Herzegovina
6 and the Republic of Serbia
7 A. At the administrative border between Serbia and
8 Bosnia-Herzegovina, nothing special happened. There was a routine
9 traffic control by Serbian policeman. There were only policemen at the
10 check point. Of course, they checked our papers, good morning, good
11 morning, where are you going, can we see your papers. From me, since I
12 was in uniform, they asked also the police ID card because anybody can
13 put on a uniform and impersonate a policeman.
14 Q. All right. Thank you. Again waiting for the transcript. After
15 crossing the administrative border, did you at that point in time
16 encounter -- encounter any check points or roadblocks on the way from the
17 Serbian border towards the municipality of Visegrad
18 A. After we crossed the border, there were two or, rather, three
19 check points, one just after the border at a place called Vardiste where
20 there was an army barracks, and I noticed a lot of army personnel and
21 policemen around there. That was the first time we were stopped. They
22 asked where we were going, look at our documents. They also checked the
23 boot of the car. We answered all these questions and continued.
24 The next stop was in Dobrun where the road forks towards Lima
25 Visegrad. There was another check point manned by army personnel and a
1 few policemen, the same story as in Vardiste, the same procedure, and
2 then we continued on the way to Visegrad.
3 The next stop was a check point, if you can call it a check
4 point, manned only by the police, no army. I remember it very well
5 because there's a petrol station on the left side, and the policemen were
6 on the right side of the road. We were stopped there. We were asked
7 where we were going. They looked at Milan's documents. I think it was a
8 passport that he offered, and I remember one of the policemen said, you,
9 sir, have to go to the duty service of the police station to register.
10 When Milan
11 service of SUP
12 Q. And could you explain for us where the police station or SUP of
13 Visegrad was located and where you had to travel to get to it, what route
14 you took?
15 A. Well, we continued straight on, downhill, then the road takes you
16 a bit to the left, and across a small bridge leading to the centre of
17 Visegrad. When you take a slight left turn, there was a police station,
18 and across the road there was a small green market, so we stopped on that
19 road leading to the centre. I parked outside the police station. There
20 were some policemen there carrying rifles, I noticed. Milan got out. I
21 didn't want to get out because I was wearing a different uniform, and he
22 got into the police station. The entrance was on the upper side of the
23 building. It was a two-storey, old building.
24 Q. If I could back up a bit. Where precisely did you park? Where
25 exactly did you park? Could you describe the location where you parked?
1 A. Well, when you take the turn towards the police station going
2 towards the centre, if you take it further left, there was a small green
3 market where I parked. I could not park exactly outside the police
4 station because it's to the left of the road.
5 Q. And what happened then? Did you both go into the police station?
6 A. No. I stayed in the car. Milan
7 alone. I waited.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ... to what
9 incidents in the indictment is this evidence related?
10 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, this is the arrival of Milan Lukic to
11 Visegrad, which is an element that's been alleged by the Prosecution.
12 It's not an indictment charge, as this witness was presented under Rule
13 65 ter for explaining how it was that Milan Lukic came to Visegrad, when
14 he came to Visegrad, and we're getting up to the critical part now. I
15 don't want to taint the witness, but we're getting to the critical part
16 of why he remained in Visegrad and what he was doing there at the
17 beginning of the war. So it's not a crime yet. The witness is also an
18 alibi witness to a specific time period later that we'll be getting to
19 that will be of interest to two of the counts in the indictment against
20 him. At this point in time, we're still explaining, presenting for the
21 first time the true and accurate picture of how Milan Lukic came to
22 Visegrad, which has been so often the subject of the Prosecution's
23 various witnesses who claim to have seen him there earlier or claim to
24 see him there under different circumstances, so it's of critical
25 importance, and this is the only witness we are presenting for -- for
1 that time period.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well. Continue.
3 MR. IVETIC:
4 Q. Thank you. Mr. Markovic, you have indicated that Milan
5 the police station alone and you waited. What happened then? How long
6 was Mr. Lukic in the police station?
7 A. Well, he stayed quite a while, 45 minutes or so. I got tired of
8 waiting, I remember, and I was wondering why he was taking so long. And
9 then he showed up, dressed in a police uniform, with a belt on him but no
10 weapons. I remember that because I started laughing when I saw him
11 wearing a police uniform because he was wearing pants that ended 20
12 centimetres above his shoes. They must have been out of larger sizes.
13 He got out together with three other policemen. I got out of the car to
14 see what it was all about, and I said, laughing, what is this story? And
15 he answered, I have to stay. They mobilized me into the reserve force of
16 the police. And I said, how come? What are you going to do about your
17 mother? And he said, I have to stay. It not going to be that bad. I'll
18 be in the escort of -- in the security detail of Commander Tomic.
19 I don't know this Tomic, but there are many Tomices in my native
20 place of Vrulja, and I remember thinking that it's strange that there is
21 a Tomic in Visegrad as well.
22 Q. And what -- what, if anything, happened at that time? What did
23 you do at that point in time?
24 A. I didn't know what to do, and I asked him, what are we going to
25 do now? Shall I go fetch your mother? Where does she live? And he
1 said, well, you can't go, you don't know where she lives. And although
2 we were laughing about those short trousers, I could see that he was
3 rather upset, and he said, I'm very sorry about this, brother, you just
4 go on your way. And the other policemen told me, get into the car, sir.
5 We'll escort you up to Vardiste. You go on your way, and he has to say.
6 Q. And did you then at that point in time return from whence you had
7 came, and did you have occasion to return the rental vehicle?
8 A. Yes. Two policemen got into a Lada Niva vehicle with the police
9 registration plates. Milan
10 policeman, so two policemen drove ahead of me. I followed in my Golf,
11 and nobody checked me anymore at the check points because the policeman
12 ahead explained obviously something to the crew at the check points.
13 They took me up to Vardiste, and from then on I returned to Belgrade. I
14 drove back the vehicle the next day to the owner, Vlada Tref.
15 Q. Thank you. Now, when is the next time that you have a clear
16 recollection of being in contact with Milan Lukic after this incident?
17 A. So he stayed in Bosnia
18 much later. It was the 7th of June, and I was astonished to get his
19 call. He called me at my home, 613506. Now they added another 3 in
20 front of the 6, my flat in Zemun. I was dining with my very close
21 friends from Novi Sad
22 lived together with my wife since the 7th of June, 1988, and we always
23 celebrate our own anniversary either at home or at a restaurant or with
24 my best men in Novi Sad
25 he called me that evening, and I didn't go to see him because, as I said,
1 it was this anniversary dinner.
2 Q. And you indicated that it was -- to clear up the transcript, I
3 think in the translation it came through that it was a good friend that
4 was with you and your wife for this anniversary dinner. Who exactly was
5 this friend, and what was his precise relationship with you?
6 A. It's a good friend, but in fact he's what we call my kum, my best
7 man at my wedding, and his wife from Novi Sad. His name is Darko
9 Q. Okay. So he's your kum or godbrother. Now, did Milan Lukic
10 indicate where he was calling from, and did you make any plans with Milan
11 Lukic at that point in time?
12 A. He called me. I don't know from which number. Those are very
13 old exchanges, and to this day you cannot get call identification. It
14 took a while to get through because the call first comes to the main
15 house where the grandma lives and then to my outhouse. Anyway, he said
16 he came on a short visit because of his mother and that I should see him
17 in that cafe called 10 where we usually met, Index 10. But I couldn't
18 go, unfortunately, because I had this anniversary dinner with my best man
19 and his wife.
20 Q. And did you make arrangements with Mr. Lukic to meet him at some
21 other time, and if so, when?
22 A. Yes. I even invited him to join us. He actually was reluctant
23 to call on me at my house because he didn't want to be in the way. I do
24 that myself. I prefer to meet with my friends in cafes and restaurants.
25 I said, anyway, that I couldn't see him at all on the 7th, and I said
1 that instead, the next morning on the 8th I would come to the students'
2 town at 10.00 in the morning. And anyway, I had to go there to the
3 library to return some books. So we set a date for the next day at 10.00
4 in the morning.
5 Q. And the location where you agreed or arranged to meet Mr. Lukic,
6 what was that?
7 A. That cafe was Index in students' town, because that was the
8 shortest way, and it was our usual meeting place.
9 Q. And did you have any other appointments that day?
10 A. After Milan
11 I suggested to Milan
12 I got a call from my uncle, Sava Lekovic, who lived in Mustanica. It's a
13 suburb, some 20 or 30 kilometers away from Belgrade itself. He was
14 supposed to come to Belgrade
15 for a rental apartment in Belgrade
16 to meet at half past 10
17 Q. And did you actually go ahead and have the meeting with Milan
18 Lukic at 10.00 on the 8th of June, 1992, in the Cafe Index in Belgrade?
19 A. Yes. Yes. When I arrived, Milan was already there in Cafe Index
20 and he was drinking a Coke. We met but very briefly. He was in a big
21 hurry, and I asked him how he was, what he was doing, and the only answer
22 I got was, leave me be, I'm very tense. If it hadn't been for my mother,
23 I would never have returned. I could have stayed in Switzerland
24 very tense, and he explained to me that he was in a hurry because he had
25 brought his mother to Belgrade
1 one of the questions -- one of the reasons why he actually called me was
2 this: He says, I have some Muslims in my apartment, some friends of mine
3 from Visegrad or from wherever, I don't know that, and I'm supposed to
4 take them to Novi Pazar. What's the situation en route to Novi Pazar?
5 Is it safe?
6 Q. And what was your response to this inquiry by Mr. Lukic?
7 A. Well, it was a strange question. I told him that there were no
8 problems for people in the Republic of Serbia
9 religious affiliation. They would have no problems going to Novi Pazar.
10 Nobody would ask them any questions. There could be some routine traffic
11 stops by the police, but if -- and I said, if you need me, I'll accompany
12 you, but there's no need, really.
13 Q. How long did this encounter with Milan Lukic last at the Cafe
14 Index in the students' city in Belgrade
15 A. Very briefly. When my uncle arrived, Milan was not there. It
16 was less than half an hour, just ten minutes or so. He was in a hurry,
17 probably because of his mother. He had to go to the hospital, so it was
18 about 15, 20 minutes. By the time my uncle arrived at half past 10, he
19 was already gone.
20 Q. Tell us, did you have occasion to speak with Milan Lukic in the
21 days following this meeting or encounter with him?
22 A. Please repeat your question. I didn't hear you.
23 Q. After this meeting with Mr. Lukic on the 8th of June, 1992, did
24 you have occasion to speak with him again in the following days?
25 A. Yes. The next day, that was the 9th - on the 8th we met. On the
1 9th, he did not call, and I found it strange. I wanted to know what was
2 happening, so he called me on the 10th. The day after our meeting, he
3 didn't call. He called on the day after that, which was the 10th, and he
4 told me that he would wrap up himself and that he would go to Novi Pazar.
5 Thank you, we'll see each other. And I said to him, have a safe trip,
6 and that was just a brief conversation. I didn't want to speak to him
7 long over the phone because I had this courtesy phone. There were other
8 tenants there. I didn't want to keep the line occupied for a long time,
9 so I always spoke to people very briefly. They didn't -- people actually
10 avoid calling me because my grandmother was old and it was a big hassle
11 for her to switch the phone over to my phone.
12 Q. And sir, after that point in time, did you have any further
13 contact with Mr. Milan Lukic during the duration of the Bosnian civil
14 war, that is to say, the civil war in Bosnia-Herzegovina?
15 A. During the civil war in Bosnia-Herzegovina, I did not have any
16 encounters with him, no phone calls. I don't know where he was, what was
17 happening. The first meeting with Milan Lukic that I had after the end
18 of the war was in late 1996 or 1997, something like that, and this is how
19 it happened.
20 At that time, in the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina,
21 vehicles were imported from western Europe. So all citizens of Serbia
22 and Montenegro
23 were the only ones that could be transferred to Belgrade plates and other
24 plates issued in the Republic of Serbia
25 other citizens, went to Visegrad, it was a free territory, to buy a car,
1 and I saw Milan
2 friends, acquaintances, and he showed me several cars, and I did buy one
3 of those cars. That was the first time that I saw him in the town of
4 Visegrad, which looked like there never was a war. I never saw any
5 damage to any houses.
6 Q. Apart from that, did you have any other contact with Mr. Lukic
7 during that time period, during the 1990s, after the war?
8 A. After the war, apart from what I've just told you, this contact
9 that I had with him about the purchase of the car, I didn't have any
10 other contacts.
11 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I pass the witness to the Prosecution.
12 Cross-examination by Mr. Groome:
13 Q. Sir, my name is Dermot Groome. I represent the Prosecution, and
14 I'll be asking you some questions here this morning.
15 A. Pleased to meet you. Please go ahead.
16 Q. Just a few questions to begin with respect to your background.
17 You said that you studied maritime tourism and that you also attended the
18 faculty of math and sciences. Did you ever receive a degree from the
20 A. Let me correct you. At the faculty of math and sciences, I
21 graduated in geography, and geography includes a course in maritime or
22 coastal tourism. This is what I studied as a post-graduate student, and
23 this is what I specialized. It is a post-graduate degree, which is lower
24 than the master's degree. Of course, I graduated from the faculty, and
25 then I further specialized, and my average mark was 9 out of 10.
1 Q. Now I'd like to ask you a few questions about your service as a
2 police officer, and if I could begin with 1992. Your testimony here
3 today was that when you received your monthly salary that it could only
4 be converted to 1 Deutschmark, and it was insufficient to buy a loaf of
5 bread the following day, and it also seems that it was insufficient to
6 pay your rent of 40 Deutschmarks. Is that correct?
7 A. Well, it was very difficult. It was very difficult to pay the
8 rent. I had to do some work privately, to chop wood, to do some painting
9 jobs, as much as I could to make ends meet for my family. I also got
10 some assistance from my father who lived in the countryside, meat, dairy
11 products, things like that.
12 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, you've told us what you'd done up until
13 1992. What year did you retire from the police?
14 A. On the 21st of June, 2005.
15 Q. And I believe you said that you retired because of an injury you
16 received in a car accident. Is that correct?
17 A. That's correct, yes.
18 Q. And when was that car accident?
19 A. The accident was on the 28th of December, 2003, at the corner of
20 Mokroluska and Vojaslavalica [phoen] Street in the morning hours, 6.10
22 Q. Now, can I ask you just to summarize briefly, what types of
23 positions did you have in the police between 1992 and your retirement in
25 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I don't know if counsel's got
1 something specific, but I would object to relevance at this point, and
2 it's beyond the scope of the direct.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome, what's the relevance of this?
4 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, surely his professional career and
5 educational background would be matters that would be relevant to his
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Go ahead.
8 MR. GROOME:
9 Q. Sir, again just briefly, if you could tell us the different
10 positions that you held and the type of work you did as a police officer
11 between 1992 and 2005 when you retired.
12 A. It's not a problem. I changed a number of posts and let me take
13 them one by one. I started in the Novi Belgrade, New Belgrade police
14 station as a beat policeman where I covered various sectors, depending on
15 the requirements of the service. I provided security at the Stari
16 Merkator, the Sava Centre, congress centre, the students' town, and I
17 also performed other duties. It's sectoral work. It's similar to
18 patrols where you patrol the whole of New Belgrade. That's how it was at
19 the time.
20 In 1991, I was transferred from the New Belgrade police station
21 to the Ministry of the Interior. This is the republican SUP of the
22 Republic of Serbia
23 security to republican organs and persons.
24 Q. It's not so important that we have the specific places that you
25 provided security, but it seems that for most of your police career, you
1 were engaged in providing security for -- to whomever you were assigned
2 to protect. Is that correct?
3 A. No, that's not correct. I merely started telling you all this in
4 detail, but I can cut to the chase. So from a beat officer in New
6 Assembly in Belgrade
7 studies, I move to the city Secretariat of the Interior where I worked as
8 a plain-clothes inspector in the sector for public law and order.
9 Q. And as a plain-clothes officer, did you have any particular type
10 of crime that you were engaged in investigating?
11 A. Well, I did not investigate crimes. We dealt with public law and
12 order, and in our sector, in the Belgrade
13 violent conduct, gambling, and prostitution. So these were the tasks
14 that we were dealing with.
15 Q. Now, since your retirement, we've heard that you receive a
16 disability pension. Aside from that disability pension, do you do
17 anything presently to earn income?
18 A. No, and I couldn't do any work physically, and I also don't have
19 the right to work. My wife works. She also has a university degree, and
20 we are able to live a normal life.
21 Q. Do you know a cafe by the name of Cafe Bellissimo?
22 A. Yes. I know Belgrade
23 Q. And is that a cafe that have you any ownership interest in?
24 A. No, absolutely not. I don't know why you're asking me this
1 Q. Now, I want to speak to you a bit about your relationship with
3 approximately 20 years?
4 A. I've told you, I've known him since 1987, October 1987, in fact.
5 We came to students' town in end October, and I've known him all the time
6 since, but we didn't see each other every day. We each had our own
7 lives. We did see each other often while he was in Belgrade over a year,
8 a year and a half.
9 Q. So that would make it 21 years that you've known Milan Lukic,
10 correct? 1987 to 2008?
11 A. Something like that.
12 Q. Would you consider yourself a very close friend of Milan Lukic?
13 A. Well, at the time when we met at students' town, we were good
14 friends. I was not his only friend. He had other friends, but we were
15 good friends as students. However, in time our meetings became rarer.
16 After he left students' town, you can count on the fingers of one hand
17 the times we met. You cannot consider somebody a very close friend if
18 you don't see them for 15 years. You can't call a close friend anyone
19 whom you don't see and visit at home fairly regularly.
20 Q. And sir, you said that you cannot consider someone a close friend
21 if you don't see them for 15 years. Is there a 15-year period in your
22 relationship with Mr. Milan Lukic that you did not see him? Yes or no,
23 if you can answer it with yes or no.
24 A. I don't think I understood that question.
25 Q. Well, the statement -- the transcript records you as saying: "You
1 cannot consider somebody a very close friend if you don't see them for 15
2 years." So what I'm asking you, when you said that, was that a reference
3 to Milan
4 15 years?
5 A. Well, I told you when I saw him last. Now I would have to
6 count -- well, you can read in my statement when I saw him last.
7 Q. I'm not asking you to do any mathematics in your head. When is
8 the most recent time that you have seen Milan Lukic? When have you most
9 recently seen him?
10 A. The last time, it was in Visegrad when I bought the car. That
11 was the last time.
12 Q. And what year was that again, please?
13 A. Well, 1996 or early 1997 when it was possible to import cars from
14 Bosnia and Herzegovina to Serbia.
15 Q. So between that time and the time that you looked across the
16 courtroom and saw him here today, you had not seen Milan Lukic?
17 A. I did not see him from that time until today, so from the time
18 when I bought the car in 1996 or 1997, I had not seen him at all.
19 Q. Did you speak with him during that time period?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Did you have any difficulty recognizing him here in the
23 A. Well, he's changed. He's put on quite a lot of weight, and his
24 hair is shorter. His hair used to be much longer, but the face remained
25 the same. I was able to recognize him, although he's now much heavier.
1 As a student, he had longer hair, especially in the back.
2 Q. Now, at transcript 10, line 19, when speaking about Djurdjevdan
3 day, which seems to be why you remember this early May encounter, you
4 said that you remember that Djurdjevdan day, it's expected that you would
5 spend it with your family unless something extraordinary happens. Is
6 that correct?
7 A. Yes, that's what I said, and I also stressed that I mostly went
8 to Pljevlja for St. George's Day to attend the feast which was at that
9 time organised by my uncle as the eldest brother in the family, unless
10 something else happened. It's a long way away.
11 Q. Sir --
12 A. And I sometimes prefer not to go because there were some other
13 events, but I would always have at least a mini-feast in my own home.
14 Q. Well, can I take it as an indication of the depth of the
15 relationship you had with Milan Lukic in 1992 that you did not attend
16 this important family celebration but instead made a decision to help
17 Milan Lukic that day?
18 A. Well, it doesn't mean that it was a deep relationship, but if a
19 man, if a friend, your neighbor, your relative, tells you that they had
20 some health problems, it's a humanitarian reason and it's a much stronger
21 reason than some feast because I was not the only family member there.
22 Somebody did come to represent my family in my uncle's house, my father,
23 my sister. But since his mother was sick, I agreed, and I would not have
24 gone there had it been possible for him to get a car on his own. There
25 would have been no need for me to go there, but I had to bring the
1 vehicle back.
2 Q. Okay. Now, going first now to -- well, let me ask you this.
3 Mr. Ivetic said in explaining the purpose of your testimony, one of the
4 purposes of your testimony, said, and this is transcript page 17, line
5 15: "We're still explaining -- presenting for the first time the true
6 and accurate picture of how Milan Lukic came to Visegrad, which has been
7 so often the subject of Prosecution's various witnesses who claim to have
8 seen him there earlier."
9 Is it your evidence that when you went with Mr. Lukic, Milan
10 Lukic, to Visegrad on the 6th of May, that this was the first time that
11 he was returning to Visegrad after his time in Germany and Switzerland
12 A. Whether Milan
13 that. I only can say that he went there with me on that day and that he
14 remained in the territory of Visegrad
15 whether he had been to the territory of Visegrad
16 you. He may have, but I can't tell you. He had just got back from
18 hard-pressed to do so. I don't know that, at any rate. I do know that
19 he remained there on that day when he went with me, and I can't tell you
20 things I don't know.
21 Q. Well, you describe having numerous conversations can him. At
22 this -- during this period of time, did he ever say to you, hey, I've
23 been in Bosnia
24 having been in Bosnia
25 he returned from Europe
1 A. He didn't discuss that with me when he came. I told you that I
2 saw him only briefly after he moved abroad. I remained in the students'
3 town, and in that period I only saw him very seldom. We didn't talked
4 about the war in Bosnia
5 mostly football. I love football. I can talk about football all day
6 long, and he liked the topic himself.
7 Q. But the fact is, you have no recollection of him saying to you,
8 I've been in Bosnia
9 the time he asked you for assistance in finding a car?
10 A. He didn't tell me that. We didn't talk about that. I don't
11 think that he was because he had just come back from Switzerland. He
12 didn't tell me about having gone to Bosnia
13 topic at all. The only topic that related to his departure for Bosnia
14 had to do with his mother's illness. We did not talk about this. We
15 talked about some casual private affairs of ours.
16 Q. So it's your belief that the time that you traveled with him to
18 been in Europe
19 A. I don't know when the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina broke out. I
20 really don't know the exact date. When he went abroad, that was a year
21 and a half while we were in the students' hall, he didn't go to Bosnia
22 I met him once. I don't know whether he went to Bosnia or not. I don't
23 know when the war started. As regards the war in Bosnia, we didn't talk
24 about that at all. I didn't ask him any questions. He didn't tell me
25 anything. I don't know that. I think he didn't, but I don't know that.
1 Q. Sir, the breakout of war in Bosnia
2 that was covered in the international media, not simply, I would imagine,
3 the Yugoslav media. Are you able to say when the war in Bosnia started?
4 A. I really don't know. As far as I can recall, the war first broke
5 out in Slovenia
6 There were so many of those events, and I really don't know. I can't
7 recall. I don't want to remember. I don't like war. I like it when
8 people are able to live normally, so I really don't know when the war
9 broke out in the territory of the former Yugoslavia and most of its
10 parts. I don't know where -- when the war broke out. I had my own
11 tasks, my own jobs, I had my private problems, and so on. I had other
12 stuff to think about.
13 Q. Could you tell me a year?
14 A. I don't know when it began. I don't know when it ended. I think
15 it ended about 1995, 1996, something like that. I don't remember those
17 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I'm about to embark on an entirely new
18 area. I'm not sure when the Chamber was planning on taking a break.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We'll break now.
20 --- Recess taken at 10.19 a.m.
21 --- On resuming at 10.53 a.m.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Groome.
23 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Q. Sir, just before the break, you testified that you did not recall
25 the year the war started, and I must put it to you plainly: The
1 implausibility of you recalling that Milan Lukic had a glass of Coke and
2 was wearing a suede jacket on the 8th of June 16 years ago and yet be
3 unable to recall when war broke out in your country. Do you not agree
4 that this is rather implausible, that you have such detailed memory about
5 a fact that most of us would forget but have no recollection about the
6 year in which the war broke out in your country?
7 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I would object. Asked and answered.
8 Sorry. Waiting for the translation. I would object, asked and answered,
9 and I believe at this point counsel is making arguments, not --
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, I believe the question is perfectly proper,
11 Mr. Ivetic. Perfectly proper. I see nothing wrong with it.
12 MR. GROOME:
13 Q. Sir, do you understand what question I'm putting to you?
14 A. I understand very well. I remember the jacket he wore because he
15 used to wear it when he was a student at the students' town, this suede
16 jacket, and as for the beginning of the war in the then-Yugoslavia, how
17 can I know the date? I lived in Serbia where there was no war. The war
18 broke out in the territory of Slovenia
19 remember the war. I just don't know the date. After the Zvezda-Dinamo
20 match in Zagreb
21 alive, of course I remember there was a war on. And then soon
22 afterwards, the war in Bosnia
23 didn't lead the army to remember the date. I was engaged in different
24 work. I worked in MUP as a security man. The war in the territory of a
25 country outside of Serbia
1 Q. Sir, you seem to have a very specific memory about this very
2 infamous football match that took place in Zagreb. What was the date of
4 A. I don't know the date. I know that it was at the Dinamo stadium
5 in Zagreb
6 sometimes on TV still today. I told you, I played football in the
7 veterans' club.
8 Q. I don't challenge your memory about what happened. What I'm ask
9 you is, as you sit here today, you do not know the date of that football
10 match, do you?
11 A. I don't know the date. I know it was in 1991.
12 Q. And when you refer to the war taking place in Slovenia and what
13 are now different countries, at the time the war broke out, it was one
14 country, Yugoslavia
15 A. Well, the war began in Slovenia
16 still existed. It was still one country.
17 Q. And you were a police officer in that country in which a war
18 broke out, and you are unable to even tell me the year that the war broke
20 A. Yes, I was a police officer, but of the territory of the Republic
21 of Serbia
22 can't remember all that. The army was involved in the war, or whoever.
23 I can't answer these questions. I was not in the army, and I was not in
24 those regions. Perhaps I went through Slovenia once in passing. I can't
25 tell you things I don't know.
1 Q. Sir, you've explained to us why you remember the suede jacket.
2 What was so memorable about the can of Coca-Cola that Mr. Lukic had that
3 now 16 years on you have a specific memory of that?
4 A. It was not a can of Coca-Cola, but he was always drinking Coke.
5 He arrived to that establishment before I did, and he had already ordered
6 a drink and he always drank Coke. That was something I remember.
7 Sometimes he went to McDonald's in Belgrade where he sometimes had a
8 hamburger, but he always had a Coke, inevitably.
9 Q. Now, in your statement on page 2, you state: "We met briefly for
10 a drink the following morning. We could not stay long because Milan
11 in a hurry. He told me he had some Muslim friends in his flat in
13 remember saying that in your statement?
14 A. I do, I do.
15 Q. So you recall that he told you that he had some Muslims who were
16 his friends living in his apartment in Belgrade. Is that correct?
17 A. Correct, and I understood that's the reason why he called me, to
18 ask me about taking those Muslims to Novi Pazar. I don't know whether
19 they were from Visegrad or some other town in Bosnia. In fact, he asked
20 me if they would be safe going to Novi Pazar.
21 Q. So your recollection is that he was describing Muslim friends
22 from Bosnia
23 place in Bosnia
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. They must have been good friends if he was allowing them to stay
1 at his apartment with him not there, with him being with you, correct?
2 A. Well, they probably knew one another well. He came to Belgrade
3 for his mother, and he asked me about taking them to Novi Pazar. They
4 must have been good friends if they lived in his apartment, but you have
5 to ask him. I cannot tell you whether they were friends or not or how
6 good friends because I never saw these people. I don't know who they
8 Q. All I'm interested from you, sir, is what you know from your
9 personal knowledge or what he may have said to you. So if you don't
10 know, please just explain that, and I'll ask you another question.
11 Now, you've testified that he wanted to bring his mother to get
12 some medical check-ups. Did he tell you where his mother was having
13 these medical check-ups?
14 A. No, he did not tell me that. He just told me he was in a hurry
15 because he had to make it to the medical appointment. I didn't ask him
16 which hospital. I thought it was superfluous to ask. He took her to the
17 doctor. Where, I don't know.
18 Q. So from what you're saying now, it seems the medical appointment
19 was on the 8th of June. Is that correct?
20 A. Well, I don't know. You see, what things are like in the health
21 system of the Republic of Serbia
22 would get a referral where they live and would travel to Belgrade with
23 that referral. I don't know what it says, but the referral doesn't say,
24 see the doctor on such and such a date. I don't know if his mother had a
25 referral or which hospital she was supposed to go to.
1 Q. Sir, you met him the morning of the 8th of June, correct?
2 A. Correct. Around 10.00.
3 Q. And you just testified that - I'm quoting you - "He just told me
4 that he was in a hurry because he had to make it to the medical
5 appointment." That suggests to me that on the day he was meeting you,
6 his mother had an appointment scheduled and he need to leave you quickly
7 to bring her there. Is that not correct?
8 A. Well, he told me he was taking his mother there, that he was in a
9 rush, and that some Muslims were living in his apartment. I asked him,
10 what are you doing? He said, nothing much, I'm in a hurry, and I
11 understood the reason he wanted to see me was to ask me about the safety
12 of those Muslims in his apartment.
13 Q. Now, being a good friend, did you say to him, what's wrong with
14 your mother, is there anything I can do to help? Did you inquire about
15 his mother's health?
16 A. Well, I asked what it was about. He said, she's in a bad way.
17 He found some acquaintance of an acquaintance who is a doctor. He was
18 taking her there. I didn't ask anymore because I'm not a medical man
19 myself. I had no acquaintances in hospitals, and I assumed he already
20 knew who he was going to see. I asked her what condition she's in. She
21 said -- he said, not good, she's ill, she's old, et cetera.
22 Q. Did he say specifically what illness she had or what her ailment
24 A. No, we didn't talk about that.
25 Q. Did he tell you the nature of the check-up she was scheduled to
2 A. No, we didn't talk about details. The entire conversation about
3 his mother was that he brought his mother there, that that's why he was
4 there, he was in a hurry because of her, and that --
5 Q. No need to repeat. If you could answer my question in a yes or
6 no, I would appreciate that. Did his parents ever come to live in
8 A. I don't know that.
9 Q. Did he ever tell you that his parents had moved in with him and
10 were living with him in his apartment?
11 A. I don't know that either. We did not visit each other at home.
12 We usually met outside, in town, at Cafe Index 10, in students' town
13 while he was there, sometimes at McDonald's, we played football together,
14 and that's all.
15 Q. Now, sir, on page 1, paragraph 6, of your statement, you say:
16 "He," meaning Milan Lukic, "he told me that he had to go to Visegrad to
17 take his parents out of the war zone."
18 Is that an accurate reflection or statement of what you told the
19 Defence team that was recorded in your statement?
20 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, if I can -- it's more of a way of a
21 suggestion rather than an objection, but if you're going to quote
22 something, it'd be good to quote the original Serbian rather than the
23 translation of the English which gets retranslated into Serbian and it
24 will perhaps provide the witness with a copy of the Serbian original
25 document which you're referring, to Your Honours.
1 MR. GROOME: I'm not speaking Serbian.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: What do you want him to do? He doesn't speak
4 MR. IVETIC: We have an original document in Serbian. He's using
5 the English translation. If he's going to use an exhibit, present it to
6 the witness. It's the witness's own statement. He's doing something --
7 put it on the screen, put it on e-court.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Put it on the screen or on the ELMO.
9 MR. GROOME: I'm happy to do that, Your Honour. It seems to me
10 the more appropriate course would be if the witness says he needs it,
11 then certainly, but it seems that if he says I remember I said that, then
12 what's the point of putting up a statement? So I'd ask that he be
13 allowed to answer whether he remembers saying that, and if he doesn't,
14 then I'll make attempts to get the statement before him.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let's have the statement before him in this
17 MR. GROOME: Could I ask that 1D 220094 be called up on the
18 screen for the witness.
19 Q. Sir, there's a screen in front of you. I believe it's going to
20 be the screen on your right-hand side. There will be a copy of the
21 statement that you gave to the Defence. I'm going to ask -- that's also
22 65 ter number 26. If you need to refer to that, if your recollection is
23 not clear about your statement, then by all means, please look at that.
24 Now, sir, let me ask my question again. On page 1, the sixth
25 paragraph, you state: "He told me that he had to go to Visegrad to take
1 his parents out of the war zone." Is that correct?
2 A. Correct.
3 Q. To your knowledge, did he ever do that? Did he ever bring his
4 parents out of the war zone into Belgrade
5 A. That day when I went with him, he did not do that because he
6 stayed in Visegrad. As for the date mentioned, the 9th or the 8th of
7 June when I saw him in Cafe Index 10, he told me he had brought his
8 mother. I didn't see her. I don't know whether he managed to bring his
9 parents over, but he told me on that date that he had brought his mother
10 for a medical check-up and that he was in a hurry for that medical
12 Q. Sir, the trip that you made down there that you did not go to
13 your family celebration, you rented a car, you drove it down there, the
14 purpose of that trip was for him to bring his parents back out of the war
15 zone, correct?
16 A. The purpose of that journey was for him to bring back his mother
17 who was ill or his parents, both, and I traveled with him because he was
18 unable to rent a car himself. I had to rent it for him, and I had to
19 bring the car back. Otherwise, he would have gone alone. But since I
20 was the guarantor for the car, I traveled with him.
21 Q. And now you've testified that he wasn't allowed to return. So my
22 question to you is, why didn't you just bring his parents back? You're
23 there. You're with a car. You're driving back to Belgrade. Why didn't
24 you bring his parents back to Belgrade
25 A. Here is the answer to your question. When he emerged from the
1 police station in uniform, I asked him, should I go fetch your mother?
2 He said no. I didn't know where that village was. The war was already
3 going on. I didn't know which parts. I didn't know whether the army was
4 present or not, and I couldn't go to his village if I didn't know where
5 it was. I would have gone if he could have arranged it. However, the
6 policemen told me immediately to get back into my car and that they would
7 escort me out, and they took him away. I don't know what for and where,
8 and they took me back to the border.
9 Q. And now you've said that one of the purposes of the trip was to
10 bring his mother up to Belgrade
11 May. It's also your evidence that he did not bring his mother up because
12 of medical reasons until the beginning of June, about a month later,
14 A. He was going to bring her, and that's why we rented a car, and he
15 told me in June that he had brought his mother on the 8th. On the 8th, I
16 didn't see her, but he told me he had brought his mother the evening
17 before when he gave me a call.
18 Q. Now, I want to ask you about something you said in direct
19 examination. The transcript at page 16, line 15, records you as saying,
20 and this is the point in time where you're describing what happens when
21 you arrive at the police station in Visegrad. Now, the transcript
22 records you as saying: "I didn't want to get out because I was wearing a
23 different uniform."
24 Can you explain what you meant by that?
25 A. Well, there was no need for me to go into the police station. I
1 was wearing the uniform of the Republic of Serbia
2 me to go into the police station because only he was summoned, not I. I
3 was waiting in the car.
4 Q. But you appreciate that it's different to say there was no need
5 to go into the police station. From what you said earlier here today, "I
6 didn't want to get out..." meaning get out of your car "... because I was
7 wearing a different uniform." What might have happened had you gotten
8 out of the car wearing a police uniform from the Republic of Serbia
9 A. Well, nothing special would have happened, but I was wearing the
10 uniform of the Republic of Serbia
11 Nothing bad would have happened. They have would have asked me who I
12 was, where I was going. In fact, as it turned out they were rather kind
13 and decent to me. They even gave me an escort back, and he was the only
14 one who was summoned to the duty service of the SUP, not I.
15 Q. Sir, Milan Lukic has previously stated in statements that he
16 received training prior to returning to Visegrad. Do you know anything
17 about this?
18 A. I know nothing about that.
19 Q. With respect to the 7th of June, you say that you had dinner with
20 your kum. For those of us non-Serbs, am I correct in saying that the kum
21 relationship is one of the strongest bonds that can exist between two
22 Serbian men?
23 A. Well, the kum relationship is a good, fair relationship in
25 Q. If your kum were called to testify before this Tribunal about
1 that dinner that you had on the 7th of June, is there any possibility in
2 your mind that he might be mistaken about who he had dinner with that
4 A. I don't think he would be mistaken for a moment because he
5 remembers the date. Every year he brings a present to me and my wife.
6 It's the best friend I have of all times. I went to primary and
7 secondary school with him, and he lives in Novi Sad. It's a really deep,
8 good relationship.
9 Q. I want to ask you about the conversation you had with Milan Lukic
10 when he's asking your advice about how safe it might be to bring his
11 Muslim friends to Novi Pazar. And the question that I have for you --
12 well, first let me ask you, is there an area in Serbia that actually has
13 a significant Muslim population?
14 A. Well, in the territory of the Republic of Serbia
15 Muslims in Visegrad, and otherwise, there are Muslims in the Raska
16 district in Tutin and Sjenica and Novi Pazar.
17 Q. How about Sandzak area?
18 A. Right, right. I omitted that. Part of Sandzak encompasses
19 Tutin. Sandzak also covers a part of Montenegro, Pljevlja, Sjenica,
20 Visegrad, and Gorazde, as well, as well as some towns in Serbia like
21 Tutin and Sjenica.
22 Q. So am I correct in saying that the Sandzak area, the part that is
23 in Serbia
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Where is Novi Pazar in relation to Sandzak, the Sandzak area?
1 Would it be considered part of the Sandzak area?
2 A. I don't think so.
3 Q. How far away --
4 A. The Raska district, yes. From Belgrade, it's 300 kilometers.
5 Q. How far from the Sandzak area is Novi Pazar?
6 A. Well, I really couldn't tell you precisely. I don't have a map
7 before me. I was never really that interested to measure how far Sandzak
8 stretches in the territory of Serbia
9 Backa, like Banat
10 Sandzak and measure it.
11 Q. And when you received your geography degree, did you study the
12 geography of your own country, or was it of other lands?
13 A. The entire world geography.
14 Q. Now, it's your evidence that once Milan Lukic arrived in
16 Muslims down to Novi Pazar in Serbia
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. And he never called you from Visegrad to ask you, is it safe to
19 transport Muslims through Serbia
21 A. No. That night after he remained in the Visegrad police station,
22 he did not contact me. The first time that he contacted me, well, I
23 don't know where it was from because I don't have caller ID. He asked me
24 if we could meet at the students' town. I did not accept that because I
25 had other obligations.
1 Q. But it's your understanding that he called you after he arrived
2 in Belgrade
3 A. Not on the 27th. It was on the 7th in the evening for us to
4 meet. We didn't meet then. I don't know when he had arrived in
6 me from. He called me at my home phone, asking me if we could meet there
7 in Belgrade
8 Q. But sir, my next question to you is, am I not correct in saying
9 that the distance from the Bosnian border -- if a person was traveling
10 from Visegrad to Belgrade
13 A. Approximately, yes. Something like that. I never measure the
14 mileage. I only know how long it takes me to get to Pljevlja because I
15 go there to visit my father, 367 kilometers. Now, as to Novi Pazar, I
16 really can't tell you. I went there twice.
17 Q. Sir, how many hours did it take you to drive from Belgrade to the
18 Bosnian border when you were driving to Visegrad?
19 A. Well, the drive to Visegrad when we went there, it took us about
20 five hours.
21 Q. And yet, he didn't ask you your advice on that 5-hour trip with
22 Muslims through Serbia
23 trip between Belgrade
24 MR. IVETIC: Objection, Your Honour. Misstates the testimony.
25 He said five hours from Belgrade
1 MR. GROOME: If I have, I apologize.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I may just add, you asked me
3 about our drive to Visegrad. That's five hours, but we stopped at the
4 Ovcar-Kablar Gorge. It depends on the car and the driver. You can take
5 less. If I drive alone, it's a great road, and you can drive there in
6 three and a half hours. It's a 300-kilometer trip. It depends on the
7 car and on the driver and on the way you drive, so --
8 MR. GROOME:
9 Q. Sir, is it your evidence that the shortest amount of time it
10 would take to get from Belgrade
11 A. Three and a half, four hours, if you have a good car, I think you
12 can do it. But if you take breaks, then it's a different story. I
13 sometimes take seven hours instead of four hours to do a drive if I stop,
14 if I'm not in a hurry, things like that.
15 Q. But going back to my original question to you, Milan Lukic didn't
16 call you about whether it was safe to bring Muslims from Visegrad to
18 A. He told me that Muslims were in the apartment, and he asked me
19 whether it was safe to take them to Novi Pazar. He didn't ask me
20 anything of the sort. He merely said that they were in his apartment and
21 that -- and asked me whether it was safe to go there to Novi Pazar, and I
22 said that it was absolutely safe for them in the territory of the
23 Republic of Serbia
24 Q. Sir, I want to ask you how it was you came to testify in this
25 case. Who first contacted you about testifying in this case?
1 A. Let me give you an answer right away. From the Defence team of
2 Milan Lukic, it was Mr. Mihailo Lakcevic, an attorney at law. He asked
3 me whether I would be prepared to make a statement about some
4 circumstances that I recall that involve Milan Lukic from the student
5 days and about our encounters. And I said it was not a problem, but I
6 did not know much about that. I did not know much about him because it
7 was a brief period of time and we hadn't met since, and I really don't
8 know anything about him apart from what -- apart from what I told you.
9 Q. Who first mentioned the dates, June 7th, June 8th, June 10th?
10 Who first mentioned those dates, you or Mr. Lakcevic?
11 A. Mr. Lakcevic did not mention any dates in the course of our
12 conversation. He asked me, do you know him, how do you know him, from
13 what area, and I told him, I knew him from when he came back from
15 George's Day, because it's a big feast. And I remember that other day
16 when he called me, and I found it peculiar that he managed to take his
17 mother away from the war zone. I was happy about that. Lakcevic did not
18 ask me anything. He did not mention any dates. He merely asked me what
19 I knew.
20 Q. If he didn't mention any dates, what was said that made you
21 realize, oh, June 7th, I got the call, June 8th, we met, June 9th, I know
22 what I did, I know what he did, June 10th. What did Mr. Lakcevic say
23 that made you realize that you remembered something that happened on the
24 7th of June, 1992?
25 A. Well, those were the dates when I saw him, up until the end of
1 the war, up until the time when I went there to get the car, I didn't
2 know what was going on with him. I remember this because those dates are
3 very striking, and they stuck in my mind. I knew that I went to Bosnia
4 to take the car and I know that it was the 7th when I had this
5 celebration with my wife, and I didn't want to see him, although I felt
6 sorry for him because he had come there.
7 Q. Sir, is it your evidence that you were simply asked, when did you
8 see Milan Lukic in 1992, and it was you that said, well, I saw him on the
9 6th of May and I saw him on the 8th of June. It was you that volunteered
10 the dates.
11 A. Lakcevic asked me. He told me that he was a lawyer on the
12 Defence team, and he asked me what I knew about him: Did you socialize
13 with him, to what extent? And the only thing I recall was this: This
14 was a striking thing. He went there, and I felt sorry for him for having
15 to stay there, and he was in a bad way, and --
16 Q. Sir, we'll move quicker if you don't repeat evidence you've
17 already given. I'm just interested in, who's the first person who
18 mentioned a date? And it seems that your evidence is that you are the
19 first person to mention a date. Is that correct?
20 A. I mentioned the dates because I knew them. Lakcevic didn't know
21 when it was that I saw them. Of course it was those dates. That's how
22 it was.
23 Q. Now, I want to move to a different area. You have testified as
24 to Milan Lukic's good character, correct?
25 A. Yes, to the best of my knowledge of him from our student days.
1 Q. And you've stated on direct examination, pages 7 and 8, that he's
2 a paragon of gentlemanly behavior and that you never saw any trace of
3 intolerance in him. Am I correctly summarizing your evidence?
4 A. Yes, yes.
5 Q. Is it your evidence that he is not the type of person who is
6 capable of committing the crimes for which he's charged?
7 A. Looking at him from the student days, from what I knew about him
8 from Studenski Grad, I could not imagine that he did that. I only know
9 that he is indicted from the news media. I really don't know anything
10 about the charges, but from based on what I know about him from our
11 student days, he did not look like a person who could do that. I have no
12 internet, no computer, although it may sound strange to you.
13 Q. I want to challenge your assessment of his character, and I want
14 to do it first with an exhibit that is now in evidence as P 148, and it
15 is notes taken by a Serbian official during an interview of Milan Lukic
16 on the 26th of October, 1992. Those notes record Milan Lukic as
17 stating: "I personally liquidated many Muslims."
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute. Mr. Ivetic.
19 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honour. The witness -- this is an
20 improper question. Where's the foundation for this witness knowing about
21 the statements that are alleged to have been made to the police
22 individual? It relates to a time period he says he doesn't know Milan
23 Lukic. I don't understand what the Prosecution thinks they can obtain
24 from this witness by presenting what they claim to be Milan Lukic's words
25 to him. It's a matter that we have objected to in the past and we'll
1 continue to object to as to that alleged statement.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: But you have put his character in issue, and I
3 understand the Prosecutor to be putting this statement to the witness in
4 that regard.
5 Proceed, Mr. Groome.
6 MR. GROOME:
7 Q. Sir, I'm not suggesting that you knew what he said to the Serbian
8 official. What I am suggesting to you that -- is had you known, had you
9 been aware that he said this in October 1992, you would not be sitting
10 here today attesting to his character. Is that correct, or would you
11 still maintain that he has -- a man of good character?
12 A. I've told you that I'm speaking about his character up to 1989.
13 That was the time when I knew him, at the time when we were at the
14 students' town. When he left for Germany, when he left for Bosnia
15 didn't socialize, so I didn't know what kind of a person he was at that
16 time. If he had been such a person, I would never have come here to
17 testify, and I have to say that it is my honour and my obligation to
18 provide you with some dates that I'm aware of. I'm just telling you
19 about his character, his honour.
20 Q. Sir, I just want to put one more excerpt before you, and this
21 is an excerpt that appeared in a popular Serbian magazine named Duga
22 during this time period in which Milan Lukic gave an interview. Are you
23 familiar with --
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ivetic.
25 MR. IVETIC: [Microphone not activated].
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: You're on your feet, so I'm asking you to --
2 MR. IVETIC: I'm was going to wait for the question to be
3 answered. I just want to make sure that I have an opportunity to object
4 to it.
5 MR. GROOME:
6 Q. Are you familiar with the news magazine, Duga, a popular magazine
7 in Serbia
8 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, if I may object. We're bringing up the
9 Duga article again. We've objected to this in the past. It is a -- if
10 they're going to be relying on this document, which I think they are
11 since it's listed as a document they want to use for cross-examine with
12 this witness, I think I have to object. The purported interview, we
13 don't know what date it was published, we don't have an official
14 publication of it. We have the article that shifts from first person to
15 third person, et cetera. It's a document that even the Prosecution as
16 recently as a few weeks ago brought some question about when we raised it
17 in relation to something else, so I think it's an improper document.
18 This particular questions by itself is innocuous, but if it goes towards
19 establishing some basis for trying to bring in the Duga article as an
20 exhibit in this case from which the truth of the matter asserted therein
21 is supposed to be determined, I would strenuously object.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: We haven't heard the question yet. What's the
23 question in relation to the Duga?
24 MR. GROOME: I want to show the witness the article. I have both
25 the original B/C/S as well as the translation, and I want to draw his
1 attention to a quote -- a purported quote of Milan Lukic and then ask him
2 whether this affects his assessment of Mr. Lukic's character.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
4 MR. GROOME: Could I ask that ERN 06357586, 0635790.
5 Q. Sir, you will see on the screen in front of you an article
6 published in Duga magazine. I'm going to ask that the English -- the
7 excerpt that I want to refer to is from page 9 of the English
8 translation, and on the B/C/S original, I would ask that we go to the
9 page that has page 77 at the bottom right-hand corner.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome, who is the article by?
11 MR. GROOME: Just a second, Your Honour. Let me just see.
12 MR. IVETIC: On that point, Your Honour, I would also add to the
13 objection that this is essentially having the Prosecution do what we were
14 not allowed to, which is to use statements authored by third parties,
15 presenting them to witnesses and having them testify as to it. That's
16 precisely what we were told not to do with signed sworn statements, not
17 newspapers articles, so I would object as to fair play and equity of arms
18 and the manner in which we had to proceed in our case, that the same
19 rules ought to be applied to the Prosecution as a way of trying to go
20 around the Court's prior rules.
21 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, we're really mixing apples and oranges
22 here. This is not attempting to introduce a statement of a third party.
23 It's putting to the witness a published media article which challenges
24 his assessment that Mr. Milan Lukic is the person of a type of character
25 that is incapable of committing the crimes with which he's charged. It's
1 perfectly proper for me to test the accuracy of his knowledge of his
2 general reputation in the community and with respect to that, this is an
3 article, we don't know the exact date. We are investigating that, but it
4 was published contemporaneously with these events, and it has quotes of
5 Milan Lukic that were widely distributed among the public in Serbia
6 I'm sorry, Your Honour, it was written by a person by the name of
7 Radislav Matic.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: And published in what?
9 MR. GROOME: The name of that magazine is Duga. It's an
10 equivalent to Time magazine or Newsweek magazine.
11 MR. DIECKMANN: Your Honours, just for the record, we completely
12 join the objections of Defence for the co-accused.
13 MR. IVETIC: And again, Your Honours, I don't know how they can
14 claim it was done contemporaneously when they don't know the date.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let me see the statement this is attributed to
17 Mr. Lukic.
18 MR. GROOME: Could I ask that with respect to the B/C/S, it's the
19 third column, the right-hand column, and it's in the bottom section
20 there, and with respect to the English, it's on page 9 of the English
21 translation, and it is -- if you see where it says "You see the first
22 thing ...", that paragraph, there is a sentence that is underlined. It
23 begins with "There is no way ..."
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 MR. IVETIC: I would ask that he put to the witness the entire
1 quotation because they're taking it halfway out of context, which I
2 believe is inappropriate.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ivetic, formulate your objection again with
5 greater precision.
6 MR. IVETIC: I will try, Your Honours. We have this alleged
7 article, for which we don't have the publication date. Essentially, it
8 is a written statement by this -- they've now identified Mr. Matkovic,
9 who is out of court, is not here. They're presenting the document which
10 has not been admitted into evidence up until today's date. They are
11 presenting this to present this as a statement of Milan Lukic as this
12 witness, this Matkovic has said, he said X, Y, and Z.
13 During the Prosecution's case in chief, we presented signed,
14 sworn statements under oath and under penalty of perjury produced by this
15 Office of the Prosecutor, produced by witnesses who were Prosecution
16 witnesses, evidence by Prosecution investigators who were Prosecution
17 witnesses. When we tried to present those documents that were quite
18 explicit in terms of doing the exact same thing Mr. Groome is trying to
19 do with this article, putting it to the witness to challenge their
20 testimony as to Milan Lukic's acts, deeds, and character, we were told by
21 the Trial Chamber we could not. In fact, on the objection of Mr. Groome,
22 we were denied that opportunity. And therefore now we have a certain
23 number of the Prosecution's witnesses on our witness list that we have
24 had to call as --
25 THE INTERPRETER: Counsel, please slow down for the interpreters.
1 MR. IVETIC: [Previous translation continues] ... the written
2 statement, just to have them verify the written statement that go against
3 our 45-witness quota. I believe --
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is this in the form of a statement, the article?
5 MR. IVETIC: It is not, but I believe it amounts to the same
6 thing. It's even weaker than a statement. It's not under oath, it's not
7 delineated as to who is saying what, and they're trying to introduce it
8 now without knowing when it was published, without having the author here
9 to say when it was published, how it was undertaken, and they're trying
10 to present it in the same manner that we tried to use sworn statements,
11 and I think if that manner is not good enough for a sworn statement, it
12 definitely ought not to be good enough for this, and I take issue with
13 Mr. Groome testifying as a witness as he is so apt to do in this case
14 about what Duga magazine is. Let's bring someone in, let's find out what
15 the magazine is, what its reputation is, who its publishers are, et
16 cetera, if we really want to go down that road. Thank you.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome.
18 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. I think the problem here is that
19 we're talking about a very narrow, a very specific exception to hearsay,
20 to the hearsay rule. If this was an unpublished notes or statement or
21 any other document by this journalist, of course I would not be allowed
22 to put it to this witness, but it's not. It's something that is
23 published, and this witness has testified as to Mr. Lukic's good
24 character. I brought with me what's considered a -- I think my American
25 colleagues will recognize it as a very authoritative source on evidence,
1 and it's McCormick's on Evidence. If I might, if the Chamber -- I don't
2 want to insult the Chamber, but if the Chamber would find it helpful, I'd
3 be willing to read the paragraph that deals precisely with this type of
5 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, again, they don't have a date of
6 publication. They cannot prove it was published. They don't have a
7 certificate of publication. They don't have the author to say it was
8 published. They have a document that they are presenting, a document out
9 of context. They don't have the original newspaper, et cetera.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's authenticity you are questioning?
11 MR. IVETIC: Authenticity and relevance and admissibility, yes.
12 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I would submit with respect to the
13 authenticity argument, the Chamber's able to look at the copy of the
14 document and assess for itself. It has pictures. It has -- with respect
15 to the context, if you'll read the context, it gives some sense of the
16 time period. It's my belief that it was published in November of 1992.
17 Again, it is a matter that I'm still investigating, but I believe there's
18 nothing improper with putting the newspaper article to this witness to
19 test or to challenge his assessment of Mr. Lukic's credibility or
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Dieckmann?
22 MR. DIECKMANN: Just to clarify our objection, we join the
23 objection of the Milan Lukic team regarding authenticity, the relevance,
24 and the admissibility of this document.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: What is it you wanted to read from McCormick?
1 MR. GROOME: It's McCormick on Evidence. Again, Your Honour, I
2 don't mean to insult the Chamber. It's a paragraph, if the Chamber
3 would -- I refreshed my memory about the law in this area before today,
4 so I'm happy to read it if the Chamber finds --
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: I want to hear it.
6 MR. GROOME: This is page 348 of McCormick's, it's also section
7 191 for people with other editions.
8 "Ordinarily if the defendant choses to -- "
9 THE INTERPRETER: Counsel is kindly asked to slow down when
10 reading for interpretation. Thank you.
11 MR. GROOME: Yes.
12 "Ordinarily, if the defendant chooses to inject his character
13 into the trial in this sense, he does so by producing witnesses to
14 testify to his good character. By relating a personal history supportive
15 of good character, however, the defendant may achieve the same result.
16 Whatever the method, once the defendant gives evidence of pertinent
17 character traits to show that he is not guilty, his claim of possession
18 of these traits and only these traits is open to rebuttal by
19 cross-examination or direct testimony of Prosecution witnesses.
20 "The Prosecution may cross-examine a witness who has testified to
21 the accused's reputation in order to probe the witness's knowledge of the
22 community opinion, not only generally, but specifically as to whether the
23 witness has heard that the defendant has committed particular prior
24 criminal acts that conflict with the reputation vouched for on direct
25 examination. Likewise, if a witness gives his opinion of defendant's
1 character, then the Prosecution can allude to pertinent bad acts by
2 asking whether the witness knew of these matters in forming his opinion."
3 Your Honour, the 65 ter summary of this witness clearly
4 identifies the witness as a character witness. I believe evidence has
5 been led that clearly --
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's not in issue. I mean, if he puts the
7 character of the accused in issue, then clearly, you can rebut it.
8 That's not the question here. The question is whether this particular
9 piece of evidence that you are seeking to use to rebut it is admissible.
10 Of course you're entitled to rebut it, but the question is whether this
11 particular piece of evidence is admissible.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: The Chamber has decided not to allow the
14 particular question.
15 MR. GROOME:
16 Q. Sir, I want to then move on to another area. You have a number
17 of criminal cases before the courts of Serbia. Is that not correct?
18 MR. IVETIC: Objection, Your Honour. If we're going to be doing
19 the same thing that Mr. Groome is doing with the witnesses for Mr. Cepic
20 for the defence of Sredoje Lukic, if he has some --
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: What are you objecting to now? I mean, he's
22 asking him about cases that he has before the courts.
23 MR. IVETIC: He's asking about a specific type of cases, Your
24 Honour, if he says criminal.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, you have to wait and see.
1 MR. IVETIC: Okay. Okay.
2 MR. GROOME:
3 Q. Mr. Markovic, do you want me to repeat the question, or did you
4 hear it?
5 A. I heard the question. In the territory of Serbia
6 court cases that I had was the one involving the traffic accident. I was
7 defended by Mr. Cepic, attorney at law. The other two cases are still at
8 the stage of trial or examination, and it doesn't mean that the
9 allegations are proven. Any criminal to meet me in the street, well, I'm
10 retired now. It doesn't mean that these cases have been proven, but at
11 any rate, this is all in Serbia
12 Q. Sir, I fully agree with you that until a judgement is entered
13 against you, you are presumed to be innocent. Nevertheless, I do want to
14 ask you some questions. Now, I want to respect your right not to
15 incriminate yourself with respect to any pending case here, so I'm going
16 to ask you a few precisely focussed questions that will not require you
17 to say anything that can be used against you in any of the pending
18 matters, okay? And I'd ask you if I talk about a matter that is still
19 pending, please let me know that it is pending because it is not
20 completely clear to me which cases are closed and which cases are still
22 The first case I want to talk about is an indictment that you
23 have against you that was issued in 20th of March, this year. Do you
24 know the indictment that I'm speaking about?
25 MR. IVETIC: What's the question?
1 MR. GROOME:
2 Q. Do you know the indictment that I am speaking about?
3 A. I don't know. You have to tell me.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ivetic.
11 MR. IVETIC: We are now embarking on an area of questioning that
12 I must strenuously object to. We've now heard that it's an indictment,
13 that it's not any type of judgement. We've heard that it's for assault.
14 Under the rules of every other legal jurisdiction that I've ever been
15 licensed to practice in front of, the only types of crimes that can be
16 raised or any types of criminal that can be raised against a witness to
17 test their credibility are those going towards crimes of dishonesty.
18 This is not the type of proceeding that can be brought to judge and
19 assess the credibility of a witness, and therefore it is improper.
20 Mr. Groome knows that. He's from the same national jurisdiction I'm
21 from. He knows that.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Never mind the national jurisdiction.
23 Mr. Groome, what are you hoping to achieve by eliciting this kind of
24 evidence if the case has not yet reached the stage of a decision on guilt
25 or innocence? What is it that you are hoping the Trial Chamber will draw
1 from this? What can we properly draw from this kind of evidence?
2 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, under 90(H) I'm required to put these
3 allegations or any allegations I want to seek to have the Chamber rely on
4 to the witness. The pending cases, as far as I can tell, are in their
5 last stages of resolution. It is quite possible that before you conclude
6 the evidence in this case that the Prosecution in his rebuttal case will
7 be introducing certificates of conviction. It seems to me that it's --
8 what I'm -- I should be doing at this stage is simply put the allegation,
9 allow this man to either say, that is me, that is not my case, and then
10 if it comes to pass that before the evidence in this case is concluded
11 that in the rebuttal I'm able to produce a certificate of conviction,
12 then I will have fulfilled my obligation under 90 (H) to actually put it
13 to the man what it is that he had -- the crime. It's not my intention to
14 ask him to make any denial, to make any statement about that but simply
15 confirm the case that is pending against him.
16 And Your Honour, I would also just say, Mr. Markovic has
17 expressed his desire not to do this in public. I have no objection to,
18 at least with respect to the pending cases, handling the matter in closed
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: So if I understand you, then, you don't have
21 specific definite information now as to whether these cases have reached
22 a verdict, but you may have that later.
23 MR. GROOME: I have information that there is a judgement in one
24 of them, Your Honour. The other two are pending and are in the courts
25 now, and are -- it is quite possible that they could be resolved prior to
1 the conclusion of this case.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: You have information that there's a judgement in
4 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, you can put that one.
6 MR. GROOME: Yes, I was going to put that one as well as the
7 other ones, as well, Your Honour.
8 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I would only add --
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, there is one other relevant piece of
11 information I'd like to provide the Chamber, but I think we can do it in
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ivetic.
15 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I'll try to be brief. I find it wholly
16 inconsistent for Mr. Groome on the one hand to wave McCormick's and then
17 not five minutes later to seek for material to be brought into this case
18 that is explicitly prohibited by McCormick's in the same rules that he
19 has so valiantly tried to push for.
20 Again, I submit that this type of act which is a -- if I read --
21 reading the indictment, it appears to be a misdemeanor, a misdemeanor
22 that does not relate to any acts of dishonesty, cannot even, if there is
23 a conviction, be used to try to impeach a witness. It goes against the
24 very nature of due process.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: That is not relevant. Here it is a matter of
1 the weight that we attach to it. We are not governed --
2 MR. IVETIC: If you cannot consider it, it does matter. That --
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: No. There is nothing prohibiting us from not
4 considering it. It goes to weight. Stop citing national rules of
6 MR. IVETIC: I apologize, Your Honour, but it's been my
7 experience in this very same Tribunal that that type of evidence is not
8 available, but if you rule, you rule.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: In my view, he can put to the witness the case
10 in which there is a conviction and should not put the others.
11 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, may I say just one other thing in
12 private session.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
14 MR. GROOME: If that's Your Honour's ruling.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Private session.
16 [Private session]
11 Pages 3902-3906 redacted. Private session.
18 [Open session]
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
20 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours, for the opportunity.
21 Mr. Groome has proffered this document that is -- it's a two-part
22 document. It's an official not of an interview of the witness conducted
23 by the MUP of Serbia and an interview of another party to those
24 proceedings that are not subject to a conviction.
25 Mr. Groome stated to Your Honours and represented to Your Honours
1 that this was being presented for the purposes of confronting the witness
2 with a contradiction as to his ownership in a cafe. Albeit hastily, I
3 have looked through the transcript and Mr. Groome's cross-examination,
4 and the only reference I see is at page 27, lines 11 through 15, talking
5 about a cafe. That cafe that Mr. Groome asked about is not to be found
6 anywhere in either the B/C/S original nor the English translation of the
7 statement that Mr. Groome is now presenting to be used with this witness
8 for that purpose. I would therefore object because it cannot be used for
9 that way if he hasn't asked him anything about it.
10 Secondly, I have a problem with the translation which Mr. Groome
11 is relying upon. It states it is a draft translation. It won't read who
12 it's done by, but it appears to be done by the Office of the Prosecutor
13 and the problem that I have --
14 THE INTERPRETER: Would counsel kindly slow down, please, for the
15 interpreters and enunciate.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Slow down, Mr. Ivetic.
17 MR. IVETIC: I will, Your Honour. The problem that I have with
18 the statement is that on page 1 of the English which appears at, I
19 believe, page 2 of the B/C/S, we have the last full paragraph where it
20 indicates another location, not this cafe that Mr. Groome has asked
21 about, but another location and in parentheses it says Markovic's place
22 in Bulic. The problem I have with this, Your Honour, that phrase,
23 Markovic's place in Bulic, is not to be found anywhere in the B/C/S
24 original. So I submit to you either Mr. Groome is presenting faulty
25 evidence to you or we need to call the Prosecutor as a witness to
1 determine what this information is based upon because again it's not in
2 the B/C/S original at all. So that would be another grounds for
3 objecting to the use and presentation of this statement. Thank you.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ivetic, since you're appearing before us and
5 will quite frequently be making submissions, please note what the
6 interpreter said. It's on the transcript. Would counsel kindly slow
7 down for the interpreters and enunciate. So it's not just the speed.
8 It's the enunciation of the words. You tend to, I think, bite up your
9 words or to chew them, and they get lost.
10 MR. IVETIC: And I apologize to Your Honours and the translators.
11 I tried very hard during the direct examination to speak slowly and
12 enunciate and it's sometimes easier when I have a game plan as opposed to
13 when I'm speaking off the cuff, as it were, based upon documents I'm just
14 reviewing for the first time in open court. Thank you.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome.
16 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I must first say before I deal with the
17 substance that it is very unfortunate that this Court now is being used
18 regularly as a venue on unsubstantiated slander. I've just being accused
19 of falsifying evidence and possibly becoming a witness. I assure --
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: I didn't understand Mr. Ivetic to be saying
21 that, Mr. Groome.
22 MR. GROOME: Well, Your Honour, if you would give me a moment,
23 because I think I've tolerated this about as much as any advocate should
24 have to tolerate it.
25 "So I submit to you that either Mr. Groome is presenting faulty
1 evidence to you or we need to call the Prosecutor as a witness to
2 determine what this information is based upon." That's at 70, line 11.
3 MR. IVETIC: Finish the quotation.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Faulty evidence there I take to mean evidence
5 that is subject to objection. I don't think it means that --
6 MR. IVETIC: Yeah, and Your Honours, if you finish the sentence,
7 I'm specifically talking about what's not in the B/C/S original. That's
8 what I'm limiting myself, to and show me where it is in the B/C/S
9 original and I'll withdraw the objection, but it's not there.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, let's proceed. Since we have it
11 clarified, Mr. Groome, there's no suggestion that you were presenting
12 false evidence.
13 MR. GROOME: Just for an explanation of -- we still are not in
14 possession of a 65 ter witness list of the Defence. We learned these
15 names last Thursday. We attempted to get information, and we had
16 translators working over the weekend, so if they are not up to the
17 standard that Mr. Ivetic would require, there are two things that can be
18 done. Please give us a list of the witnesses so that we can begin our
19 preparations; and secondly, I am happy any time there's a dispute over
20 translation to sit down with Defence counsel and attempt to resolve it.
21 But I suspect that as long as we're being given such short notice about
22 the schedule for which the witnesses are called, there will be a
23 reoccurring problem of having draft translations that are not as precise
24 and accurate as CLSS translations.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid, your 65 ter list has still not been
3 MR. ALARID: We filed our 65 ter list -- what date? -- 19th of
4 November, Your Honour, and Mr. Markovic was tendered as part of the alibi
5 submissions and his ID number was on the original statement presented to
6 the Prosecution, so we would assume they knew exactly who he was. And
7 he's had it since the 7th of July, 2008, regarding this witness,
8 according to the e-mail that we have with the English and B/C/S
9 translations attached in PDF format.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome, are you speaking of wider list that
11 was presented by the Defence or another list?
12 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. The 65 ter list that was
13 submitted, I forget the exact date, was rejected by the Chamber.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
15 MR. GROOME: And it stands with over 90 witnesses, Your Honour.
16 The Chamber -- I was going to raise it with the Chamber tomorrow, but if
17 it's convenient I'll raiser it now, is that --
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: We don't want to digress too much from the
19 point, but we come back to that because the Chamber rejected it and
20 ordered you to present a more abbreviated list, and that is what has not
21 been presented.
22 MR. ALARID: And the thing is, just with this witness, Your
23 Honour, not to be too far afield, we would submit that this witness was
24 notified well in advance of this. Like I said, we believe the statement
25 with the personal ID number was back in July, so the particular
1 allegation with regards to the OTP, I don't think would be relevant to
2 this witness anyway. We are attempting to pare it down, and that's what
3 we've been doing, and Your Honour, that's why we traveled to the region
4 even trying to do that further because we think the original list was
5 submitted for notice purposes as much as anything because we know we have
6 to get everything in at the front side. So we would consider it
7 overinclusive from that standpoint, but you know, we are taking to heart
8 the Court's requirements because we think the case should be pared down
9 as well. We're just doing some of our due diligence as we're moving
10 along, Your Honour.
11 Yeah, and the Thursday deadline, we believe we complied with.
12 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the problem for the Prosecutor is that
13 over the recess the Prosecution has to prepare for 45 witness that
14 they're not required until the 5th of January to come and tell you that
15 they're not calling. I believe that's prejudicial to the Prosecution.
16 It also is at a tremendous waste of resources. I believe they should be
17 required to prior to the recess to at least let us know who are the 45
18 witnesses on their witness list so we can begin adequate preparations and
19 not waste --
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: I agree.
21 MR. IVETIC: How does this affect this witness?
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: We have digressed. We'll come back and deal
23 with that matter tomorrow. Now, where are we on this point? Mr. Groome,
24 did you reply to the point made by Mr. Ivetic?
25 MR. GROOME: I'm not sure which point, Your Honour. Perhaps I
1 got lost in the digression.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Remember you had wanted to submit a statement
3 and he objected to the statement of the witness.
4 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. I believe the Chamber has
5 indicated that it will rule on that. Mr. Ivetic is correct that I used
6 the name of a cafe which may be different from this, so I would seek
7 to -- that's an inadvertent error. Let me put to the gentleman, does he
8 have an ownership in any bar. I put a specific reference to it. If he
9 says he has no ownership interest in any bar, then I believe the
10 statement is very relevant. If he says I do and I have a -- then I
11 believe my introduction of the statement is no longer relevant, and I'll
12 withdraw my attempt to work with it.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we'll proceed that way.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, please call the witness.
16 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, just while we're waiting for the
17 witness to be brought in, I just want to say what I intend to do with
18 respect to the marked for identification is simply show that to the
19 witness and ask him, does he recognize that as the indictment that's
20 pending against him. It seems to me without doing that, the whole
21 purpose of having it marked for identification seems to be lost. I'll
22 ask no additional questions other than --
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: It would remain marked for identification?
24 MR. GROOME: It would remain marked for identification.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
1 [The witness takes the stand]
2 MR. GROOME:
3 Q. Sir, I'm going to ask that you now be shown what's been marked
4 for identification as P 206. I'm not going to ask you any other
5 questions about it other than to ask you, is this the indictment that's
6 pending against you.
7 MR. GROOME: In respect of Mr. Markovic's wishes, I'd ask that we
8 go into private session for this point unless the Chamber feels that it
9 should be done in public.
10 [Private session]
11 Pages 3915-3918 redacted. Private session.
19 [Open session]
20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
21 MR. GROOME:
22 Q. Sir, you've mentioned that you were in an accident in 2003. Have
23 you been convicted of a crime arising out of what you call an accident?
24 MR. IVETIC: And for the record, Your Honour, we still object
25 that the type of the crime that is at issue would not be one that would
1 rise to a level of attacking the credibility of the witness.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yeah, but, it's a matter of weight that we
3 attach to it. Please answer the question.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was merely convicted of that
5 crime which was -- which had to do with traffic safety because of the
6 crash in which I was involved in December 2007, and that was brought to
7 completion before the 5th Municipal Court in Belgrade. I have no other
8 convictions as far as I'm concerned.
9 MR. GROOME:
10 Q. But sir, the underlying conduct that you were convicted of is
11 that you were driving while drunk and you drove into a fuel tanker. Is
12 that not correct?
13 A. I was very tired that evening, and I fell asleep at the wheel. I
14 had passengers in the car. As far as alcohol is concerned, I had two
15 glasses. I don't know what the percentage was because I was unconscious
16 for several hours in hospital, and I don't recall the crash itself.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome, you have now exceeded the time used
18 in examination-in-chief, and you must bring your cross-examination to a
20 MR. GROOME: I'd ask that the witness be shown 06454752,
22 Q. Sir, while that is being brought up so you can take a look at it.
23 You recognize that the judge who heard the case found that your blood
24 alcohol content was three times above the legal limit. You realize that,
25 do you?
1 A. Well, 0.5 is the legal limit, unless you're a professional
2 driver, in which case there's zero tolerance.
3 MR. IVETIC: [Microphone not activated].
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: I've said it's a matter of weight in relation to
5 this kind of evidence. And I particularly, speaking for myself, am not
6 going to attach any great weight to that kind of evidence in terms of the
7 character of the witness. I would advise you to move on to a different
8 area. In any event, you are now about 20 minutes beyond the time used by
9 Mr. Ivetic, and I'll give you another 10 minutes.
10 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 I'd ask, then, that the indictment be -- the judgement be
12 tendered, so I formally tender 06454752 into evidence. I don't have
13 enough time to ask the questions.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
15 THE REGISTRAR: It is admitted as Exhibit P 208, Your Honours.
16 MR. GROOME:
17 Q. Just a couple of questions. In that case, you testified before
18 the investigating judge and the trial judge that you had one glass of
19 brandy, one drink. You've now said you had two drinks. Was it one drink
20 or two drinks?
21 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, have you not asked him to move on to
22 another topic?
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: I have. Please move on to another topic,
24 Mr. Groome.
25 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
1 Q. Sir, the final couple of questions I have for you have to do with
2 whether or not you're accurate in your recollection of dates. You seem
3 to be somewhat equivocal on whether Milan Lukic first returned to
4 Visegrad on the 6th of May, and you seem to leave open the possibility
5 that it may have been earlier. But at page 32 of the transcript on line
6 2, you said: "I don't think that he was" -- meaning he was in Bosnia
7 before -- "because he had just come back from Switzerland." Do you
8 remember saying that?
9 A. I said that he had come from Switzerland and that on the 6th of
10 May we went to Bosnia
11 whether he had gone there before. We did not discuss that, so I can't
12 give you any other answer but the one that I gave you, that he went there
13 with me.
14 Q. When did he return from Switzerland
15 A. Well, it was in late April, early May. I had seen him a couple
16 of days before the 5th when he told me that his wife [as interpreted] was
17 sick and he had to go down and fetch her. He told me he had returned a
18 couple of days before that.
19 Q. And your evidence is that when you went to Visegrad, he was
20 forcibly inducted into the police reserves. Is that correct?
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute. Mr. Ivetic.
22 MR. IVETIC: I'm sorry, I was going to wait for the answer.
23 There's a transcript issue at line 17. It's not his wife, his mother.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: If that is so, then we'll take note of that, and
25 please answer the question.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Once again, I got a little bit
2 confused listening to what the Defence was saying. Could you please
3 repeat your question?
4 MR. GROOME:
5 Q. It's your evidence that when you went to Visegrad with him, he
6 was forced to remain there to serve on the reserve police force or the
7 police force. Is that correct?
8 A. Well, I can't tell you whether he was forced, whether he had to.
9 I will tell you this. Every citizen of Bosnia and Herzegovina and of
11 army or in the police. He was told at the check point to report there
12 and he went to the duty officer. I really don't know what his obligation
13 was, whether this was some kind of compulsory service in the reserves. I
14 really don't know that.
15 Q. Is it your evidence that you are sure that it was the police and
16 not the army that he was required to serve in?
17 A. Well, I don't know what the war assignment was, as it is called,
18 because in the territory of the Republic of Serbia
19 this. Those who do their military service in the police then go to the
20 reserve force in the police.
21 Q. Sir, I just have time for a couple of specific questions. I
22 really don't have time to ask you about the general state of affairs. I
23 want to ask you to take a look at a document from the Sredoje Lukic --
24 that was brought to this court by the Sredoje Lukic team, and it is
25 2D040413, and I'd ask that that document be placed on the screen, and if
1 we could go straight to a page that is Y 0268242 and bears that number on
2 the upper right-hand corner.
3 Sir, while this is being called up, this title of this document
4 is list of military personnel of the 2nd and 5th Podrinje Light Infantry
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ivetic, you have an objection.
7 MR. IVETIC: Yes, I do, Your Honour. First of all, this witness
8 has not shown any personal knowledge. There's no foundation for this
9 document being brought up. Thirdly, and I find no other way to bring
10 this up except to just state it. Mr. Groome is showing a lack of
11 understanding of how the system works. Maybe it's because they didn't
12 call an expert as to how the reserve system works over there, but this
13 document is irrelevant as to what this witness testified about in these
14 proceedings in the time period that he specified.
15 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, certainly that's a matter for redirect
16 and argument.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let's hear the question.
18 MR. GROOME: I'd ask that we go to the B/C/S original with
19 Y 0268242 at the top page, the top right-hand corner.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome, please ensure that if a foundation
21 is necessary for the witness's answer that you lay it.
22 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I'm not seeking to introduce this. I'm
23 just seeking to test whether his -- to challenge the accuracy of his
24 assertion that Milan Lukic was a member of the police. Is it possible
25 to -- Your Honour, there seems to be some technical difficulty.
1 Q. Sir, if I could put this to you and when the technical difficulty
2 is resolved. According to this document which, again, it's the Defence
3 of Sredoje Lukic that have brought this to the Court, according to this
4 document, Milan Lukic was a member of this Brigade of the Bosnian Serb
5 Army from the 16th of April, 1992, and until the 1st of July, 1994
6 my question to you, sir, if this document is accurate, do you admit,
7 then, that you are wrong when you assert that Milan Lukic was a member of
8 the police force as of the 6th of May --
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome, how can he speak to its accuracy?
10 You haven't asked him any questions to let us know whether he's able to
11 speak to the accuracy of the document.
12 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. I know that he's not able to.
13 What I'm putting to him, Your Honour, is that if this document were found
14 to be an accurate document, again, it was brought by the Defence, I don't
15 know much about his providence, I believe it was obtained through an RFA,
16 but I'm asking him whether he's still certain in light of this
17 information whether Milan Lukic was a member of the police force, as he
18 has testified.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome, I don't find that approach helpful
20 at all. Please ask another question.
21 MR. GROOME: I'd ask that the witness be shown P 150. This is
22 Milan Lukic's statement to the police on the 27th of October, 1992, and
23 I'd ask that we go to the last page of the original.
24 Q. Sir, being a friend of Milan
25 signature there on the bottom of that page?
1 MR. IVETIC: Objection, Your Honour. If we can have -- the
2 Prosecution has already raised for purposes of other things in these
3 proceedings the need to have an expert handwriting analysis to testify as
4 to documents. They can't have it both ways, Your Honours. Either one
5 way or the other.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm not with you on that. If he knows his
7 signature, he can say it.
8 MR. IVETIC: So then can my witnesses testify about Risto
9 Perisic's signature, Your Honour?
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: I don't see why not. He can say whether he
11 knows his signature.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Prosecutor, sir, I don't even know
13 how my wife signs her name, let alone Milan Lukic. We never wrote to
14 each other in all these years. I'm really sorry, I don't know his
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let's move on. Mr. Groome, go ahead.
17 MR. GROOME:
18 Q. Is it really your evidence that you would not be able to
19 recognize your wife's signature?
20 A. Well, I know she writes in Cyrillic, but I don't really pay
21 attention to it. I don't know how my wife writes or even my children.
22 There are lots of similar handwritings.
23 Q. I want to read you a quote. This document is in evidence. I
24 want to read you a quote of what Milan Lukic said about when he arrived
25 in Visegrad and then ask you whether it changes your view about what you
1 believe to be the case.
2 MR. ALARID: Your Honour, we would object as to lack of
3 foundation, and I don't believe Witness 142 testified as to this was what
4 Milan Lukic said. I don't think this was actually anything like that,
5 and in particular, I don't think it was an official statement and it was
6 denied by the Defence.
7 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, it is in evidence and it records his
8 statement in the first person.
9 MR. ALARID: But the fact of the matter is this witness has no
10 ability, and this would again go against the Court's earlier rulings of
11 using one witness's statement against another.
12 MR. GROOME: I don't know how to respond to that, Your Honour. I
13 don't quite understand it. This is a statement of the accused that has
14 now been admitted into evidence. I'm seeking -- it contradicts the
15 evidence of a witness before the Court. I'm simply seeking to put the
16 statement that's in evidence before a witness who's before the Court and
17 to question him about whether that contradiction makes him reconsider his
18 testimony here today.
19 MR. ALARID: And it also represents a summary and notes of a
20 9-hour interview, not an actual statement as we would traditionally
21 understand it. This was the one that went overnight into the wee hours
22 of the morning.
23 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, this is actually not that statement.
24 This is the one taken by the police. If you recall, that witness took a
25 long interview and we had his notes. What we're talking about here is
1 the police statement taken by the Uzice police at the time of his arrest.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome, tell us exactly what is it that you
5 are seeking to achieve?
6 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I believe the witness is mistaken when
7 he gives his account about what happened when he returned with Milan
8 Lukic on the 6th of May. I think he's incorrect about the date. I think
9 he's incorrect about what happened. Here, we have a statement by
10 Mr. Milan Lukic giving another date and giving another organization that
11 he was part of in Visegrad, not the police. I believe it's entirely
12 proper to put it to the witness, either to refresh his recollection that
13 he's made some mistake in his testimony or to put it to him that he is in
14 fact wrong, that he did not appreciate the reality of when Mr. Lukic
15 returned or for whom he worked when he returned. I believe it's an
16 entirely proper line of questioning with the witness.
17 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, if I can be heard, this is a very
18 serious matter, then, because what Mr. Groome is now asking to do is
19 precisely what Mr. Groome's office prevented us from doing. Witness
20 VG-64, trans -- page 2902, when we tried to present the sworn statement
21 taken by the Office of the Prosecutor of the husband of the protected
22 witness, Ms. Maxine Marcus, and objected precisely to us using it to
23 either refresh the recollection of the witness or to confront them with
24 contradictory testimony. So we were not permitted the opportunity to use
25 that statement. Mr. Groome is now trying to have the backside of it, to
1 enjoy the fruits that he prevented us from having in his case in chief.
2 I believe it's wholly improper and goes against the rule of the case.
3 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the fundamental difference, though, and
4 the critical difference is is that the evidence is between the two people
5 that are here. It's not taking one witness and then presenting it to a
6 witness who's not here. Here it is. He's saying that he had a
7 conversation. He had dealings with the man here in court. The man here
8 in court has said on a prior occasion what he was, what he was doing, and
9 it completely contradicts this witness.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Do you accept that distinction, Mr. Ivetic?
11 MR. IVETIC: I do not, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Why?
13 MR. IVETIC: We have a sworn statement. By the way this is a
14 statement that was taken -- if it's the one I'm thinking about, the
15 witness testified that this statement is illegal in Serbian law.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: The statement here is a statement of the
17 accused, who's a party to the proceedings.
18 MR. IVETIC: Okay. He is entitled to his right not to testify if
19 he so chooses.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: That makes a distinction.
21 MR. IVETIC: They can't force him to testify, can they?
22 MR. GROOME: I'm not seeking to force him to testify. It's a
23 prior statement that's in evidence. It's a piece of evidence that's in
24 the trial.
25 MR. IVETIC: And it's a piece of evidence that's -- the statement
1 that we had from the Office of the Prosecutor was a sworn statement taken
2 by the Office of the Prosecutor that directly contradicted the witness at
3 that time about the identity of Milan Lukic.
4 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, certainly if I was somehow able to have
5 the uniform that Milan Lukic wore in those days and it was a military
6 uniform, I'd be entitled to put it before Mr. Markovic and say, this
7 isn't a police uniform, is it? That would be entirely proper. And it's
8 analogous to what I'm trying to do here except it's the statement of
9 Mr. Lukic.
10 MR. IVETIC: It's irrelevant because again Mr. Groome is not
11 paying attention to the nuances of reserve service in the former
13 uniform, he could not do it. But I suppose he could ask the question of
14 the witness without the document, but I really think what we're doing is
15 basically saying that the Prosecution can do it one way and the Defence
16 has to do it another way, and that is -- I'm finding it patently unfair
17 that throughout this case we try to use statements of nonparties
18 including persons -- if you might recall --
19 MR. GROOME: Statements of non-parties. Mr. Lukic is a party to
20 these proceedings.
21 MR. IVETIC: And I don't think that that distinction makes a
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll allow the question.
24 MR. GROOME:
25 Q. Sir, I'm going to read you what Milan Lukic said about when he
1 returned to Visegrad and what he did, and my question to you is going to
2 be, does this change your testimony about what you have said about this
4 "I have been on the front in Visegrad and its surroundings since
5 the 10th of April, 1992. I am the commander of a group called the
6 Avengers, initially known as the Obrenovac Detachment. The group has
7 between 20 and 50 men and is under the command of the Visegrad
8 Territorial Defence, and I am directly subordinate to Vinko Pandurevic."
9 Sir, now that I have put that to you, does that change your
10 testimony about what occurred on the 6th of May?
11 A. It does not. I am absolutely sure I'm telling the real truth.
14 whether he had returned there earlier, I don't know.
15 Q. Sir, let's not repeat anything. If the words of your good friend
16 don't persuade you that you might be mistaken, is there any piece of
17 evidence that you would look at and possibly acknowledge that you night
18 be mistaken about the date the 6th of May?
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm not allowing that question, Mr. Groome.
20 That's comment.
21 Q. Sir, transcript page 1321 records you as telling us that Milan
22 Lukic had a light breakfast on the morning of May 6th, 16th years ago.
23 Do you really recall, as you sit here today, recall what Milan Lukic had
24 for breakfast 16 years ago?
25 A. An omelette, an omelette, a cheese omelette, whereas I had an
1 njegus steak. I offered to treat him to this delicacy which I know he
2 had not had any for a long time, but he was an athlete. He had his own
3 strict diet.
4 Q. Sir, I put it to you that your evidence in this regard and the
5 dates that you've testified to is not only improbable, it's unreliable,
6 that your evidence cannot be relied on with respect to the dates that you
7 have given us, beginning of May and June 7th, 8th, 9th, and 10th. Do you
8 understand what I am putting to you?
9 A. I understand what you're putting to me. I can only repeat that
10 my testimony on these dates is truthful, and that's what I know about
12 cannot confirm anything with regard to events that transpired later, but
13 what I said is completely true.
14 MR. GROOME: I have no further questions.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Re-examination, Mr. Ivetic?
16 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours. Mr. Markovic --
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Dieckmann.
18 MR. DIECKMANN: Sorry. No questions from the Defence of Sredoje
19 Lukic. Thank you.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Mr. Ivetic.
21 MR. IVETIC: I apologize, Your Honours. Mr. Markovic, on behalf
22 of the Defence of Milan Lukic and Milan Lukic himself, I thank you for
23 coming today. I have no questions for redirect. Thank you, sir.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like to thank all counsel
25 and the Trial Chamber.
1 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome, when was this indictment laid, the
4 MR. GROOME: The indictment that was marked for identification,
5 Your Honour?
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: No. The indictment against Milan, Milan Lukic.
7 MR. GROOME: I personally am bad with dates. I'd prefer to
8 check, if I could have a moment.
9 Questioned by the Court:
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Markovic, I wanted to ask you, when did you
11 first learn of these charges against your friend Milan Lukic?
12 A. When an international all-points alert was issued and the
13 indictment was raised by this Tribunal.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: So when was that? How long ago?
15 A. A couple of years ago. I don't know. I know that there was an
16 indictment not only against him but against several people.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: What I wanted to find out, if you had all this
18 information that would be beneficial to your friend, why did you keep it
19 to yourself? Did you go to the authorities to provide them with this
20 information which could exculpate Milan Lukic?
21 A. Your Honour, from 1997 I had no further contact with Milan Lukic,
22 especially when he was no longer in Visegrad, and at the time when this
23 international indictment was brought against him, I had nothing -- no
24 useful information on him to help the authorities with. I knew nothing.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: But you knew about the charges against him.
1 Were you not aware of the charges that had been laid against him in the
2 indictment, the allegations that he was at a particular place on a
3 particular date doing these very bad things that were alleged, and you
4 would have had information that he was somewhere else, and so I'm asking,
5 why didn't you go to the authorities with that information?
6 A. The authorities knew everything about the international search
7 for him. At that time, I wasn't working. In 2003, I was on a prolonged
8 sick leave in various spas and sanitoria, hospitals. I spent a long time
9 in hospital. At any rate, I had no information to give. If as a police
10 officer I had such information, I would have helped the authorities and I
11 would have even arrested him as a police officer. I would have done
12 whatever my duty was to do. I had the occasion in my life to arrest a
13 person with whom I was on very good terms with. I took that former
14 minister, actually, in a former government to the police station to give
15 a statement. So whoever it is --
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let's not digress. The first time that you
17 spoke about Milan
18 charges, is that when you would have been approached by the lawyers for
20 A. I really don't understand this question.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let me rephrase it. What I'm trying to find out
22 is, when was the first time that you made any statement to anybody
23 concerning Milan
24 A. I spoke for the first time about it to Lawyer Lakcevic from his
25 Defence team, and I told him only the things I know. I knew nothing
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: But that information you'd have had all along
3 from 1992.
4 A. Well, Milan
5 Visegrad. Nothing was being concealed there. There were S4 units there
6 at the time. If there had been something, I suppose they would have
7 arrested him. What information did I have? I had no information about
8 him after my last contact with him. At the time when this international
9 search started, I had nothing on him. I couldn't even call him.
10 MR. ALARID: Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
12 MR. ALARID: Your Honour, I can tell what you're trying to get
13 at, and what concerns me is is that what had not been established either
14 on direct, cross, or I even think with your query is that this witness
15 had actually read the indictment. It's one thing to get news reports
16 that there is an indictment and even some general allegations as to what
17 those indictment might have consisted about, but actually have read the
18 indictment and see the relevant dates and periods, I think you're asking
19 is why didn't he come forward with exculpatory, and he keeps responding
20 as if it should have been information to arrest him. And I think that
21 from the time period involved, that's what he keeps responding to.
22 MR. IVETIC: In B/C/S, he keeps using the word "potjernica,"
23 which is the arrest warrant.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Markovic, that concludes your --
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Did you have any re-examination?
2 MR. ALARID: No, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. So that concludes your evidence. We thank
4 you for coming to the Tribunal to give it and you may now leave. In any
5 event, we are going to adjourn for the day, so you will leave with us.
6 ---Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.
7 To be reconvened on Thursday, the 18th day of
8 December, 2008, at 8.50 a.m.