1 Tuesday, 17 March 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 8.59 a.m.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: You would have observed that the chief of the
6 victims and witnesses unit -- may I ask for private session.
7 [Private session]
11 Pages 5523-5535 redacted. Private session.
3 [Open session]
4 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please make the declaration.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
7 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
8 WITNESS: WITNESS CW1
9 [Witness answered through interpreter]
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute, please.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Now, Witness, you just made a declaration to
13 speak the truth and nothing but the truth, but prior to that you had
14 answered many questions from me and from Mr. Alarid, and I want to find
15 out from you whether when you gave those answers you were also speaking
16 the truth and nothing but the truth.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The truth, the truth, and nothing
18 but the truth.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: For the purposes of the record, we'll treat her
20 prior testimony as having been made subject to the declaration.
21 Mr. Alarid, you may put certain questions to the witness now.
22 MR. ALARID: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Q. Ma'am, we're -- as you signed that pseudonym sheet, your -- I'm
24 going to speak to you, and when I speak to you I may call you CW1 instead
25 of your name to protect your identity. Do you understand that?
1 A. I do.
2 Q. And I'm going to take my time because the interpreters need to
3 finish interpreting to you, and then they need to finish interpreting to
4 the Court, and so it goes a little slower. Is that okay?
5 A. Very well.
6 Q. And I will further go slow because I'm going to turn my
7 microphone on and off, so please wait after I speak so I can turn it off
8 because then your voice will not go out over my channel, and that way it
9 can remain protected.
10 A. Okay.
11 Q. And then because this is a recorded transcript, and I know you're
12 speaking very softly, but you'll need to speak loud enough and into the
13 microphone so the interpreters can hear you.
14 A. Okay.
15 Q. And before we get started, I really deeply want to apologise to
16 you for bringing you here and opening wounds that you don't deserve to
17 have opened at this late date, but I think you have some important
18 evidence to say, but I'm very sorry for the pain this has caused you and
19 the pain that you've carried with you all these years, and I will try and
20 be sensitive to that at all times. And if I am not sensitive to that,
21 you tell me, and I will correct myself.
22 A. Thank you very much for that.
23 MR. ALARID: Your Honour, may we go into private session, please.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
25 [Private session]
11 Pages 5538-5557 redacted. Private session.
17 [Open session]
18 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
19 MR. ALARID:
20 Q. Now, ma'am, looking at the list of alleged victims for the
21 Pionirska Street fire as attached to the second amended indictment in
22 this case, the first name is Mula Ajanovic. Do you know a Miss Mula
24 A. I do.
25 Q. And how do you know her?
1 A. I know her as a neighbor. I would see her. We would be visiting
2 one another. I know her. Of course I know her.
3 Q. And as far as you know, was she in Koritnik before you left on
4 the 29th of May, 1992?
5 A. They were in Koritnik when I was in Visegrad. I don't know
6 anything more. I mean, after -- other than for me -- or, I mean, about
7 me, I don't know what else happened.
8 Q. I only want you to know if you knew that they were, let's say,
9 home in Koritnik but not necessarily -- I don't expect you to know
10 anything after you left.
11 A. I really don't know. I'm sorry. I don't know. I wasn't there.
12 I was in Visegrad.
13 Q. And who is Adis Delija?
14 A. Adis Delija is from Pionirska, from Visegrad.
15 Q. And do you know who his mother is?
16 A. Jasmina Delija.
17 Q. And number 3, Ajnija Delija.
18 A. Ajnija Delija. That is Adis's grandmother.
19 Q. And did she live in Koritnik or Visegrad?
20 A. In Visegrad, in Pionirska.
21 Q. And number 4, Jasmina Delija, is that the Jasmina you just
22 mentioned as number 2's mother?
23 A. I think so, yes.
24 Q. And what is Jasmina's maiden name?
25 A. Kurspahic.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid, what are you hoping to get from
2 this? I would have thought that what was important was whether the
3 witness was in a position to say whether any of these persons whom she
4 knew before she left is alive now. Are you coming to that?
5 MR. ALARID: Well, Your Honour, I think in going through the list
6 as you'll note one of the issues we've raised are deferentials between
7 what we've discovered from Bosnia
8 other lists in the case . And I think what you have here is you have a
9 witness from the family that can explain the interrelationships, also
10 assist the Court in understanding P119, which has a significant amount of
11 data. It also goes to whether or not some of these people are actually
12 people that should be on the list or did they ever exist. And that is
13 important, as you have to weigh the evidence of her knowledge of the
14 family as a whole as well as the people that are on the list that exist.
15 And some of them, it would be my position that they're improperly
16 referenced on the list by virtue of lack of supporting evidence given her
18 MR. GROOME: If that's Mr. Alarid's case, then it seems there are
19 two questions he can put to the witness. Are there any people that she
20 has seen on this list that she knows never to have existed, that she does
21 not know. And, two, does she see any names on this list that she has
22 seen them since the 14th of June, 1992. I think we can save quite a bit
23 of time by doing it in that fashion.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: I agree. I agree. I don't think you really
25 need to use that roundabout method, Mr. Alarid.
1 MR. ALARID: It's not roundabout. It's actually pointed and
2 specific in relation to the individual victims listed, and, Your Honour,
3 it's my position that the state -- or the OTP has not met its burden with
4 regards to the list given the totality of the circumstances, and this is
5 my evidence, Your Honour. I'd like leeway to present my Defence, and I
6 think that although it's going to take a while, it's not going to take
7 too long going name by name as we've seen right now by the first three.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, let's move as quickly as possible.
10 MR. ALARID: Yes, sir. Thank you.
11 Q. Now, number 5 on the list -- excuse me, number 4, Jasmina Delija,
12 do you know who her mother is of the Kurspahic side?
13 A. Besira Kurspahic.
14 Q. And let's just -- moving to number 5, there was simply a Hasena,
15 family name unknown, at this time. Did you know any Hasenas, either of
16 Kurspahic family from Koritnik or other last names that might have been
17 with the group from Koritnik?
18 A. Hasan Kurspahic had a daughter, Hasena, but she's alive in Bosnia
19 somewhere. There was Edhem Kurspahic who had a daughter, Hasa. I don't
20 know if her name is Hasa or Hasena. The name is quite unclear. I don't
21 know. I don't know. I mean, I know one Hasena, Hasan's daughter. She's
22 alive. I don't know if that is this Hasena or some other woman. I don't
24 Q. Thank you. And the next, number 6, is Tima Jasarevic. Did you
25 know her as someone who would have been from Koritnik or in the group
1 from Koritnik?
2 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I don't believe this witness can
3 say who is in the group.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I really don't
6 MR. GROOME: All she can testify to whether she knows this
7 person. She wasn't there at the time the Koritnik group was brought down
8 to Visegrad.
9 MR. ALARID: I'll rephrase, Your Honour, just for the
10 Prosecution's point.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
12 MR. ALARID:
13 Q. Did you know a Tima Jasarevic from Koritnik?
14 A. No, I didn't.
15 Q. Did you know a Hajra Jasarevic from Koritnik?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Did you know a Meho Jasarevic from Koritnik?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Did you know a Mujo Jasarevic from Koritnik?
20 A. No.
21 MR. ALARID: The next sheet, please. Can we have the next nine
22 names from the list.
23 Q. And looking at number 10 from the list, Aisa Kurspahic.
24 A. Aisa Kurspahic. There was a woman of that name, I know her, yes.
25 I knew Aisa.
1 Q. And who was her father, and who was her husband?
2 A. I don't know about the father. I don't know where she was born,
3 but I know that her husband was Dzemail Kurspahic.
4 Q. Do you know number 11, Aida Kurspahic, approximately 12 years
6 A. Yes, I do.
7 Q. How do you know her?
8 A. I know her as a child.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Can you say whether she's alive now?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I was there, she was alive.
11 MR. ALARID:
12 Q. Who is her mother?
13 A. Ismeta Kurspahic.
14 Q. And who was her father?
15 A. Hidajit Kurspahic.
16 Q. Number 12, Ajka Kurspahic.
17 A. I know Kurspahic Ajka. She's Aida's grandmother.
18 Q. And that would also be Ismeta's mother?
19 A. No, mother-in-law.
20 Q. Thank you. And as far as you know, was she in Koritnik the 29th
21 of May, 1992?
22 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I'm not even sure that we've
23 established that CW1 -- the evidence that I've heard is she was in
24 Visegrad. So can we please clarify on what basis she would know who was
25 in Koritnik on the 29th of May?
1 MR. ALARID: And, Your Honour, I think that's a fair statement of
2 the evidence before the Court. The witness, I believe, said she hadn't
3 been up to Koritnik for the week before, so that would be probably an
4 improper question for me to ask considering it would cause for some
5 speculation. So I won't ask that question anymore.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.
7 MR. ALARID:
8 Q. Now, number 13 is Alija Kurspahic, approximately 55 years old.
9 Do you know that person?
10 A. Alija Kurspahic. That's a man. I know this person, and he
11 stayed in Koritnik after I left. That's it.
12 Q. And number 14, Almir Kurspahic, approximately 10 years old. Do
13 you know this child?
14 A. Almir Kurspahic, the son of Ismeta Kurspahic.
15 Q. Did he also have a brother?
16 A. Yes. His brother was Vahid.
19 MR. ALARID: Redaction, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
21 MR. ALARID:
22 Q. And when did -- was Aner Kurspahic alive on the 29th of May,
24 A. It's hard to say. I don't know. Up until 4.00, he was alive.
25 Q. Thank you. Number 16.
1 A. Kurspahic, Becar. I know him. He stayed after I left. He
2 stayed in Koritnik after I left.
3 Q. And number 17, Bisera Kurspahic.
4 A. Bisera Kurspahic is the mother of Jasmina Delija.
5 Q. Thank you. Number 18, Bula Kurspahic.
6 A. I know Bula Kurspahic. She stayed in Koritnik after I left.
7 Q. Number 19, Dzheva Kurspahic, approximately 22.
8 A. Dzheva Kurspahic is the daughter-in-law of Bula.
9 Q. Do you know who Dzheva's daughter and son are?
10 A. The daughter was Mirela, and the son was Ismet Kurspahic.
11 Q. Thank you. And number 20, Enesa Kurspahic, approximately 2 years
13 A. I know her. It's the daughter of Mujesira Kurspahic. I know her
14 as a small child.
15 Q. And does she have a sister?
16 A. Yes. Her sister was Halida.
17 Q. Number 21, a Kurspahic whose first name was unknown but was a
18 2-day-old baby. Would there be someone that you might believe was this
20 A. I think that this was the grandchild of Aisa Kurspahic, the child
21 of Sadeta Kurspahic.
22 Q. Thank you. And number 22, Hasa Kurspahic, approximately 18 years
24 A. Yes, I know her. She remained in Koritnik after I left.
25 Q. Thank you. Number 23, Kurspahic Hajrija, approximately 60 years
1 old but reported as a birth date in the Prosecution as 1914, date of
3 A. I don't know. It could be a mistake. It could be Hajro
4 Kurspahic, a man. I don't know of any Hajrija Kurspahic. I know of
5 Hajro Kurspahic, and he had died of natural causes.
6 Q. When did he die of natural causes?
7 A. I don't know. I wasn't there. I hadn't even gotten married
8 then. I don't know.
9 Q. So you're saying he died before you got married?
10 A. Yes. Yes. He wasn't in the village when I came, but I believe
11 it's Hajra. It's not Hajrija. I believe there's a mistake in the name.
12 Q. Thank you. Number 24, Kurspahic Halida, approximately 10 years
14 A. Yes, Halida Kurspahic, daughter of Mujesira Kurspahic.
15 Q. Number 25, Hana Kurspahic.
16 A. Yes, I know her.
17 Q. Who is she related to?
18 A. She's -- her mother is on the list, too, Hata Kurspahic.
19 Q. Is she related to Huso Kurspahic?
20 A. Yes, she's Huso's sister.
21 Q. Number 26, Hasan Kurspahic.
2 (redacted) We need a redaction at page 14 and line --
3 excuse me, 15, lines 1 through 3. Can we move --
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, yes.
5 MR. ALARID: And can we move into private session for a couple
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
8 MR. ALARID:
9 Q. Now, the Hasan Kurspahic --
10 [Private session]
14 [Open session]
15 MR. ALARID:
16 Q. Okay. Could you please comment on whether you know number 27,
17 Hasiba Kurspahic, and whether she is alive?
18 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
6 MR. ALARID:
7 Q. Okay. Let's touch on number 28: Hasnija Kurspahic,
8 approximately 62 years old.
9 A. I don't know her. I really don't know.
10 Q. Has there ever been a Hasnija Kurspahic as far as you knew from
11 Koritnik or the area where you were married?
12 A. There was a Hasnija Kurspahic, but she got married somewhere in
13 Zepa, but she wasn't that old. I really don't know.
14 Q. And number 29, Hata Kurspahic, approximately 68 years old.
15 A. Hata Kurspahic is Hana's mother.
16 Q. And number 30, Ifeta Kurspahic, approximately 17 years old.
17 A. Yes. She had just gotten married into Koritnik. She has been in
18 Koritnik for just a few months. I know her.
19 Q. And number 31, Igabala Kurspahic, approximately 58 years old.
20 A. Yes. She was there. I know her.
21 Q. And number 32, Ismet Kurspahic, approximately 3 years old.
22 A. Ismet Kurspahic is Dzehva's son.
23 Q. And number 33: Ismeta Kurspahic, approximately 26 years old.
24 A. Ismeta Kurspahic is mother of Aida, Almir, and Vahid. They were
25 all still in Koritnik when I left.
1 Q. Thank you. Number 34, Izeta Kurspahic, approximately 24 years
3 A. Izeta? I don't know anyone by the name of Izeta Kurspahic.
4 Q. Number 35, Kada Kurspahic, approximately 40 years old.
5 A. Kada Kurspahic. Do you mean Kada Sehic. She was married Sehic.
6 She lived in Koritnik, Hana's sister and daughter of --
7 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat. Whose daughter?
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Daughter of whom, Witness? Would you repeat
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Hata's daughter.
11 MR. ALARID:
12 Q. And so Kada's maiden name was Sehic?
13 A. No. Her maiden name was Kurspahic, and her married name was
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
15 MR. ALARID:
16 Q. Number 39, Medena Kurspahic.
17 A. Yes, I know her. She was in Koritnik when I left,
18 Medo Kurspahic's daughter.
19 Q. So that's number 40, Medo Kurspahic?
20 A. Yes.
14 MR. ALARID:
15 Q. And so we're going on to number 43, Mina Kurspahic.
16 A. Mina Kurspahic, I don't know who that could be. There was only
17 Jasmina Kurspahic, married name Delija.
18 Q. So do you believe that Mina Kurspahic is a duplicate of
19 Jasmina Delija?
20 A. I don't know. I just didn't know anyone by the name of
21 Mina Kurspahic. There was a Jasmina. I don't know if that's the same
23 Q. Is it common for Jasminas to be called Mina?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Number 44, Mirela Kurspahic, approximately 3 years old.
1 A. Mirela Kurspahic was the daughter of Dzehva Kurspahic.
2 Q. And number 45, Mujesira Kurspahic, approximately 35 years old.
3 A. Mujesira Kurspahic, mother of Enisa Kurspahic. She stayed in
4 Koritnik when I left.
5 Q. And number 46, Munevera Kurspahic?
6 A. Yes, I know her, Alija Kurspahic's daughter. She stayed in
8 Q. Number 47, Munira Kurspahic, approximately 12 years old.
9 A. Well, I don't know. I don't know anyone named Munira, 12 years
11 Q. Number 48, Munira Kurspahic, approximately 55 years old.
12 A. That's the mother of Munevera Kurspahic.
13 Q. Number 49, Osman Kurspahic.
14 A. That's the father-in-law of Ismeta Kurspahic. He stayed behind
15 me in Koritnik.
16 Q. And number 50, Pasana or Pasija Kurspahic, approximately 56 years
18 A. Yes. Pasija Kurspahic was Edhem's wife, wife of Edhem Kurspahic.
19 Q. And do you believe that number 28, Hasnija Kurspahic, is a
20 duplicate of Pasija or Pasana Kurspahic?
21 A. No. No. It could only be Pasija's daughter.
22 Q. Number 51, Ramiza Kurspahic.
23 A. Ramiza Kurspahic is wife of Becar Kurspahic.
24 Q. Do you know if she was alive or in Koritnik when you departed?
25 A. Yes, she was.
1 Q. Number 52, Sabiha Kurspahic, approximately 14 years old.
2 A. Sabiha is Hasan Kurspahic's daughter. She stayed in Koritnik.
3 Q. Number 53, Sadeta Kurspahic, approximately 18.
4 A. Yes. She had a 2-year -- 2-day-old baby. She stayed in
5 Koritnik. She was pregnant when I left, but you could see she was
6 with-child as I was leaving.
7 Q. Number 54, Safa Kurspahic.
8 A. Safa Kurspahic, wife of Medo Kurspahic. She stayed behind me in
10 Q. Number 55, Saha Kurspahic, approximately 70 years old.
11 A. Saha Kurspahic, it could only be Hasa if she were younger. I
12 don't know Saha or Saha.
13 Q. Thank you. Number 56, Sajma Kurspahic.
14 A. Sajma was Hasan Kurspahic's daughter. She stayed in Koritnik
15 when I left.
20 A. Of course it could be, but the age does not correspond.
21 Q. But you didn't know any other child with that name approximately
22 2 years old?
23 A. I did not know, no.
3 Q. Thank you. Number 59, Sumbula Kurspahic, approximately 62 years
5 A. Yes, I know her. She was in Koritnik as I left.
6 Q. Number 60, Vahid Kurspahic, approximately 8 years old.
7 A. I know Vahid Kurspahic. He's Ismet Kurspahic's son.
8 Q. Number 61, Fazila Memisevic.
9 A. Memisevic. I know her. She stayed behind me in Koritnik.
10 Q. And Redzo Memisevic.
11 A. Redzo Memisevic, Fazila's husband. He also stayed in Koritnik as
12 I left.
13 Q. Thank you. Number 63, Rabija Sadikovic.
14 A. Rabija Sadikovic, I know her. She lived in Pionirska Street.
15 That's a neighbour of Jasmina Delija. Jasmina lived in Rabija's house.
16 Q. Number 64, Enver Sehic.
17 A. Enver Sehic, I know him. He's a son of Kada Sehic.
18 Q. Number 65, Faruk Sehic.
19 A. Faruk Sehic is Enver's brother.
20 MR. ALARID: And, Your Honour, we need a redaction at page 52,
21 line 19.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
23 MR. ALARID:
24 Q. And number 66, Haraga Sehic.
25 A. I don't know him.
1 Q. Now, where were the Sehics living at that time?
2 A. They were at Musici, this family.
3 Q. Number 67, Kada Sehic.
4 A. Kada Sehic is Faruk and Enver's mother.
5 Q. And you believe that this is a duplicate of number 35,
6 Kada Kurspahic?
7 A. Yeah.
8 Q. Number 68, Nurka Velic.
9 A. I really don't know that woman.
10 Q. Do you know a Tima Velic?
11 A. I don't know Tima Velic either.
12 Q. Do you know Jasmina Vila?
13 A. I don't know her, but I heard of her as being from Musici. I
14 heard of such a girl, but I'd never met her.
15 MR. ALARID: Thank you, ma'am, for coming to court and taking
16 this stress on your life, I apologise again, really, for your troubles,
17 and go well with your life, ma'am. Thank you.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome.
20 Cross-examination by Mr. Groome:
21 Q. Ma'am, my name is Dermot Groome, and I'm one of the Prosecutors
22 on the case. I will refer to you by CW1, as well, to protect your
23 identity. My first question to you is, you've gone through a list of
24 names, and you've mentioned quite a few of them that you know. Aside
25 from the ones that we've discussed in closed session, the ones with an
1 immediate relationship to you, how many have you seen since June of 1992?
2 A. As far as I know, I've seen all the Kurspahics in Koritnik. When
3 I left they were all alive.
4 Q. What I'm asking you now is, just looking at your passport when it
5 was passed around to me, it seemed that there were a number of
6 endorsements showing that you had returned to Bosnia, so my question is,
7 on your visits back to Bosnia
8 anyone on that list ever come to visit you in Austria?
9 A. Yes, I did go. Of course, I went to Visegrad and to Sarajevo
10 However, I never met any one of them.
11 Q. Now, the Defence has claimed that some of these people are in
12 fact still living, and we are continuing to investigate those claims, and
13 it would be helpful if you were able to provide a bit of additional
14 information on the people that you know. And the first person I want to
15 ask you about is the person who's number 4, Jasmina Delija. Do you know
16 the name of her father and her mother?
17 A. I know. I know. I'll tell you gladly. Safet Kurspahic is her
18 father. Bisera Kurspahic is her mother.
19 Q. And do you happen to know the year of birth of Jasmina Delija?
20 A. I'm not sure, but she's the generation of 1967, but you have to
21 check that.
22 Q. Now, there is a group of people on the list all having the family
23 name of Jasarevic that you said you did not know. Recognising that you
24 did not recognise -- or you did not know the names of these people, were
25 you familiar with any other villages in Visegrad where there were people
1 of the name Jasarevic?
2 A. No, really. I couldn't. I had no contact with anyone named
3 Jasarevic. I don't know anyone from that family.
4 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, could I ask that we go into private
5 session, please.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
7 [Private session]
19 [Open session]
20 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
21 MR. GROOME:
22 Q. Madam, on number 22 on the list was a person by the name of
23 Hasa Kurspahic, who you said that you knew her. Could I ask her, do you
24 know her mother and her father's name?
25 A. Hasan Kurspahic was her father, and her mother's name was Mejra.
1 I believe the woman's name is Hasa, with a diacritic on the S.
2 Q. Thank you. Now, number 32 on the list was a person you said you
3 knew, Ismet Kurspahic. Again, could I ask you if you know the father and
4 the mother of Ismet Kurspahic.
5 A. Yes. Kurspahic, Dzheva, and the father was Fehret Kurspahic.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: On that, Mr. Groome, if you go to number 60,
7 Vahid Kurspahic, approximately 8 years old, and the witness told
8 Mr. Alarid, I believe, that he was the son of Ismet Kurspahic. Was that
9 right or wrong?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] His mother is Ismeta, and his
11 father is Hidajit.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: All right. Thank you.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.
14 MR. GROOME: I apologise. Could we go back into private session
15 for a moment?
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
17 [Private session]
11 Pages 5581-5583 redacted. Private session.
22 [Open session]
23 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
24 MR. GROOME:
25 Q. Madam, I want to ask you about the Pionirska Street area, and
1 you've already told us where you live, so please don't make any reference
2 to where you live in open session. Did you know a couple by the name of
3 Sevko and Rasima Kurspahic?
4 A. No.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
15 MR. GROOME:
16 Q. Madam, can I ask you, all of these people that you mentioned, do
17 they all hail from the same extended Kurspahic family from Koritnik?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Were there any other areas in the town centre that people from
20 Koritnik -- that Kurspahics from Koritnik went and lived? Or were they
21 all kind of in the particular area of town?
22 A. There was a family in Srnice, Ramo Kurspahic with his family, and
23 there weren't any more of us there.
24 Q. So aside from Ramo Kurspahic, all the Kurspahics that moved to
25 town from Koritnik all lived in the Pionirska Street area; is that
2 A. The first ones that I mentioned, yes; Ramo, though, was in Srnice
3 across the Drina River
4 Q. Now, madam, while we're talking about some of the people from the
5 Kurspahic family that you know, I had asked that you be shown Prosecution
6 Exhibit 61. It is all of the photographs that we were able to gather
7 about the family. Did you have an opportunity to look through them
8 while -- over the break?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And did you recognise some of the people in those photographs?
11 A. Mostly, yes.
12 Q. I'm going to ask that you be handed back that stack of
13 photographs. I think probably the most efficient way for us to do this
14 is if we could use the ELMO, and could I ask you to place the photo of
15 the people that you recognise on the ELMO so that all of us can see it
16 with the assistance of the usher. And if you could tell us who you
17 recognise in this photograph from P61.
18 A. Ifeta Kurspahic, who is married to Dzevad Kurspahic, is on this
19 photograph, and she's the daughter-in-law of Becar Kurspahic.
20 Q. Is there any photograph -- the photograph on the reverse of that
21 page, do you recognise that person?
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid.
23 MR. ALARID: No, I'm sorry, Your Honour.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't.
25 MR. ALARID: [Microphone not activated]
1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Microphone for the
2 counsel, please.
3 MR. GROOME:
4 Q. Could you tell us which people you recognise here?
5 A. I know only Jesira Kurspahic.
6 Q. And is she one of the people that you gave evidence of earlier
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Could I ask that you hand the usher the next photo, if there are
10 any, that you recognise the people in the photograph as being people that
11 you've testified -- and you've already testified about today.
12 A. I didn't understand.
13 Q. In the stack of photographs, if you would indicate to the usher
14 which of the photographs you do recognise, and then she'll place it on
15 the ELMO, on the projector next to you.
16 A. All right.
17 Q. Okay. Again, this is a photograph from P61. Who is it that you
18 recognise on this photograph?
19 A. I recognise Osman Kurspahic and his grandson Vahid Kurspahic.
20 MR. ALARID: And just -- I apologise for interrupting, but to
21 clarify the record, could we indicate which number the photograph is as
22 we're going through? I know -- because you're saying just a photograph
23 from P61, but it might help clean up the record if we refer to the number
24 of the photograph.
25 MR. GROOME: Okay. This is photograph number 4 from P61.
1 Q. And you've given your evidence about that. Could I ask whether
2 you recognise any of the people on the reverse of this photograph, the
3 reverse of this page, and that is picture number 5. Did you know this
5 A. No, I do not recognise the person.
6 Q. Could I ask you to hand the usher the next photograph that
7 contains a picture of a person that you recognise and have testified
8 about here today. If it could be brought down just for a second so I
9 could see the number at the top. Okay, this is number 12. Can I ask you
10 who you recognise in this photograph.
11 A. Kada Kurspahic is shown on the photograph. Her married name is
13 Q. Thank you. Did you recognise any of the people depicted on the
14 back of that photograph? That's photograph 11.
15 A. Yes. Bula Kurspahic. Just one moment. Not Bula but Hata.
16 Hata Kurspahic; Ramiza Kurspahic, Becar's wife; this grandmother here is
17 the mother of Hasan Kurspahic, but I don't know her name. I recognise
18 her, though. As for the others, I don't know who they are.
19 Q. Thank you. Can I ask you to hand the next photograph that
20 contains someone that you recognise and have testified about here today.
21 Again, if I could just see -- this is photograph number 3. Who do you
22 recognise in photograph 3 from P61?
23 A. Osman Kurspahic, Aida Kurspahic, Almir Kurspahic, Ajka Kurspahic,
24 and Ismeta Kurspahic.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 MR. GROOME: I'd ask the usher maybe to flip it over.
2 Q. Do you recognise the people on the reverse of the photo, and if I
3 could just see the top corner for just a second. It's number 2 in P61.
4 A. Rabija Sadikovic and the children, Haris and Mirsada.
5 Q. Thank you. Are there any more of the photographs that I asked
6 you to look at over the break that you know the people depicted in them?
7 A. Kada Kurspahic again. Her married name is Sehic; and Kada's
8 father, Asim Kurspahic.
9 Q. And how about the reverse of that sheet? Do you recognise anyone
11 A. I don't know the person.
12 Q. Okay. Just so the record is complete, you did not recognise the
13 person depicted on photograph 1 of P61. Do you recognise anyone in the
14 remaining photographs that you have on the desk before you?
15 A. On this photograph as well.
16 Q. And that's photograph 8.
17 A. Bula Kurspahic.
18 MR. GROOME: And if I could ask the usher to please turn the
19 photograph over. This is 9.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Dzheva Kurspahic, Mirela, and
21 Mirela's -- Dzheva's husband, Fehret.
22 MR. GROOME: Thank you. And finally, could ask that photograph
23 number 11 be placed back up on the ELMO.
8 MR. ALARID: Could we have a redaction, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
10 MR. GROOME:
11 Q. There are a few questions that I want to ask you with respect to
12 your efforts to get a permit to leave. You mentioned that you went to
13 the police station several times in order to try to secure a permit to
14 leave. How many times altogether did you go to the Visegrad police
15 station to try to get that permit?
16 A. I was there on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday, and I
17 received it on Friday.
18 Q. And the days that you were unsuccessful in getting that permit,
19 were you told why you could not get it on those days?
20 A. There were many of us all the time. We were all waiting for
21 documents, and then we were told the time has run out and you need to go
22 home and come back tomorrow.
23 Q. And can you explain to the Chamber, what was the procedure and
24 what was the purpose of needing some kind of paper to actually leave the
1 A. Well, what do I know? Wherever we wanted to go at the border
2 crossing, they would ask us for this pass, whether we had received a
3 permit from the SUP
4 permit, and on Friday I got it.
5 Q. And what was the procedure? Were you asked questions? Did you
6 have to produce documents? What was the procedure that was involved in
7 securing such a permit?
8 A. Of course there was a procedure. They asked me where I wanted to
9 go. I said my husband's family is in Belgrade. I wanted to go there.
10 How long do you want to stay? I said, About two months, until everything
11 blows over. And that was it. They would write down my name and surname,
12 my ID card number, and that was it.
13 Q. Now, you mentioned at least on one of these days you saw a person
14 you knew as Milan Lukic. Which of the days in the week was it that you
15 saw Milan Lukic?
16 A. Well, I can't remember exactly whether it was the Monday or the
17 Tuesday, but one of those two days.
18 Q. And was it only on the one day of the week that you saw him
19 there, or did you see him on other days?
20 A. I didn't see him other times, just that day, that one day.
21 Q. Now, you said in your direct examination that he was there with a
22 group. Could I ask you, how many people were in -- how many people were
23 among the people you thought were in a group with him?
24 A. I don't know the exact number. I just turned around and saw them
25 walking, and then he started yelling at us immediately. There were three
1 or four or five men with him. I looked down like we all did, and that
2 was all.
3 Q. Can I ask you, what made you think that they were together?
4 A. Well, I saw them walking together. I don't know whether they
5 were really together, but they had come together in front of the police
7 Q. You've described how he was dressed when you saw him. Was there
8 anything notable about the other people that you saw with him with
9 respect to how they were dressed?
10 A. No. I did not notice anything.
11 Q. Did you recognise any of the other people in his group at that
13 A. No, I didn't really because I didn't dare look them over. As
14 soon as he came up and started yelling, I sort of shrank and looked down
15 and hid my face.
16 Q. Now, at some point you relayed to us a conversation you had with
17 him. Could I ask you to tell us as precisely as you're able what it was
18 you said to him and what it was he said to you.
19 A. As we were standing in that queue, me must have recognised me.
20 He took me by the arm and said, What's your business here? He called me
21 schoolmate or neighbor or something. I said I came for a pass out of
22 Visegrad. And he said, Where do you want to go? (redacted)
6 MR. ALARID: Objection, calls for speculation.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Don't answer it. Don't answer the
8 question. Next question, Mr. Groome.
9 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I'm just simply asking what she
10 believed it meant. I'm not asking her to speculate what he meant but
11 simply what she believed given all the circumstances. She's talked about
12 the aggressive nature, the angry way he presented himself to her. I
13 believe I'm entitled to ask her how she perceived what he meant when he
14 said not leave an ear standing.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well. Yes, answer the question.
16 MR. GROOME:
17 Q. Ma'am, in the context of the circumstances surrounding the events
18 of those days and this conversation with Mr. Milan Lukic, what did you
19 understand him to mean when he said he had orders not to leave an ear of
20 the Kurspahic family standing?
21 A. How else could I understand it? The worst, that we are not going
22 to be anymore. I was seized by fear that he would kill me.
23 Q. Did you believe him to mean that he intended or had orders to
24 kill the entire Kurspahic family?
25 MR. ALARID: Objection, calls for speculation.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. I'm not allowing that. She has already
2 told -- given you an answer. I think you have to take it.
3 MR. GROOME:
4 Q. When he made his statement any ear of a Kurspahic, did you
5 understand that to mean not only men but of women, children, and elderly
6 people from the Kurspahic family?
7 MR. ALARID: Objection, calls for speculation.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome, I don't think you can take it any
9 further. I think the answer is very clear. We'll have to make up our
10 minds on the basis of the answer that she has given as to what was meant
11 by Mr. Lukic.
12 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
13 Q. Did he say who it was that gave him orders to do this to the
14 Kurspahic family?
15 A. I didn't ask him, and he didn't tell me.
16 Q. Now, you've described him wearing a police uniform. Did you
17 believe him to be working for the police at the time he made this
18 statement to you?
19 A. No, I didn't think anything of the kind. I didn't even know what
20 were police uniforms as opposed to army uniforms. All I knew was what I
21 could see, that he had a dark blue uniform; but what it represented, I
22 didn't know.
23 Q. When he said "we," what did you understand him to mean when he
24 was saying "we"? Who were the people that you believe he was referring
25 to when he said "we"?
1 MR. ALARID: Objection, calls for speculation.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, she can answer that.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Would you please repeat.
4 MR. GROOME:
5 Q. You said that he said we have orders not to leave an ear of the
6 Kurspahic family standing. When you say "we," who did you understand him
7 to mean when he said "we"? Obviously he's talking about more than simply
9 A. Of course. He knows what he meant. I don't know. All I could
10 think was that's the end of us Kurspahics. I don't know what he meant.
11 Q. Prior to seeing him on this day, did you know him before this
13 A. No, I did not, except for those times at school when we ran into
14 each other, but he was younger than me. But we hailed from neighboring
15 villages, and somehow we recognised each other.
16 Q. That's the point I'm getting at. When you had a conversation
17 with him on this day, you recognised him as being Milan Lukic, someone
18 you knew before; correct?
19 A. Naturally. Clearly.
20 Q. Aside from knowing him from school and from the villages, was
21 there any other context in which you knew Milan Lukic?
22 A. No, no. I really didn't.
23 Q. Do you feel you would be able to recognise him today?
24 A. Absolutely.
25 Q. Can I ask you to take a look around the courtroom and tell us
1 whether you recognise the person you've been referring to as the
2 Milan Lukic in your testimony.
3 A. Shall I stand up?
4 MR. ALARID: And simply, Your Honour, usual objection as to
5 in-court ID.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Noted.
7 MR. GROOME:
8 Q. Ma'am, if you feel -- I'd like you to look at everyone in the
9 courtroom carefully. If you feel you need to stand up to do that, please
10 let me know, and I'll ask Judge Robinson if he'll allow you to stand up.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. If you wish to stand, you may.
12 [The witness stands]
13 [The witness sits down]
14 MR. GROOME:
15 Q. Madam, you've made a gesture. We have to be very clear on the
16 record what everything means. What did you mean with that gesture?
17 [The witness stands]
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just wanted to show you with my
19 hand who I meant. Is that all right?
20 MR. GROOME:
21 Q. Yes, that's perfectly fine. Could I ask you to, perhaps so the
22 record is clear, you're looking to the left of the courtroom. There are
23 three rows in the left-hand side of the courtroom. Can you tell us which
24 row the person you recognise as Milan Lukic is sitting?
25 A. The last row. There are two men on his right-hand side and one
1 man on the left-hand side.
2 Q. Now --
3 A. Is that all right?
4 Q. Well, I want to ask you, is it your right-hand side or his
5 right-hand side? Perhaps if you do it from your --
6 A. On his, on Milan
7 Q. Okay. Could I ask you -- I'm still not clear. Maybe if you
8 count from the -- there's four people in that last row. Counting from
9 the left, including all four people on the last row, which is the person
10 that you're referring to? If I'd ask you to look at the last row so
11 there is no mistaking which person you're referring to. Counting from
12 the left, your left, which of the four people in that row is the person
13 you're referring to?
14 A. To my left there is a policeman, if I can put it that way, then
16 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, may the record reflect that CW1 has
17 identified Mr. Milan Lukic in court.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
19 [The witness sits down]
20 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, that's all the questions that I had
21 prepared for today. We were provided just not too long ago with a tape
22 recording of some three hours. It was discoverable material. I've asked
23 someone to be listening to it while I was here in court. They've gotten
24 through about the first 50 minutes, but already I know that there's
25 important questions that will be generated from that. The most important
1 that I've heard so far is that there is -- part of the interview that was
2 conducted with this woman, there's a discussion about another person with
3 the exact same first and family name as this person, so I'm asking to
4 have an opportunity this evening to listen to the tape, and I would ask
5 that CW1, if we could impose upon her to just to take a few more
6 questions from me tomorrow morning that would arise out of me listening
7 to the tape.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: It would be in the afternoon. I believe we have
9 changed to the afternoon.
10 MR. GROOME: I was unaware of that, Your Honour, but I think I
11 could deal with it in 10 or 15 minutes.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we'll allow that.
13 MR. GROOME: So, Your Honour, I won't -- I rest my
14 cross-examination now, but those are the questions that I have for the
15 moment. Thank you.
24 MR. ALARID: And Your Honour, could we have this discussion
25 outside the witness, since she's still under oath and obviously being
1 excused for the day?
2 [Private session]
11 Pages 5600-5604 redacted. Private session.
3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.28 p.m.
4 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 18th day of
5 March, 2009, at 2.15 p.m.