1 Tuesday, 7 April 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.59 a.m.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome.
6 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. Just a preliminary matter.
7 Your Honours, Friday I made an oral motion to remove VG-145 from the
8 Prosecution witness list for its rebuttal case. The events are recent,
9 and I will not recount them other than to say I took this step when the
10 witness, just before testifying, demanded that he and his family be
11 relocated to a different country. The Chamber granted my application, I
12 was informed last evening that VG-145 initiated contact with our Sarajevo
13 field office late yesterday to express his regret about his conduct and
14 to express his willingness to come before the Chamber and testify
15 honestly and without any preconditions about what he knows about this
17 Given these recent events, I think I would be remiss if I did not
18 did anything other than to suggest to the Chamber that it must approach
19 his evidence with caution. He is someone who has sought personal gain
20 and advantage from these proceedings.
21 It is for these very qualities that I submit he was first
22 approached with a proposal to give purgered testimony. Having said that
23 I would also be remiss if I did not do everything within my power to
24 bring all reliable evidence before the Chamber to place it in the best
25 position to fairly and justly adjudicate this case.
1 Despite the despicable conduct of VG-145 there is evidence that
2 he has to give which is reliable. The map he says was drawn by
3 Milan Lukic has been examined by a handwriting expert who says that it
4 probably was, in fact, drawn by Milan Lukic. He also provided a blank
5 pro forma statement weeks before a completed version of that statement
6 was passed to the Prosecution within the full view of the Bench. A
7 meeting he had with MLD1 is corroborated with footage from a security
8 camera. VG-145's change of mind and willingness to now come before the
9 Chamber and subject him stove rigorous examination and cross-examination
10 ensures that the Chamber will be placed in a position to make its own
11 careful assessment of him, and it ensures that the rights of Milan Lukic
12 to confront him and test the serious allegations he makes.
13 For reasons that will be fully set forth in the final trial
14 brief, the different alibis of Milan Lukic are actually interconnected.
15 It is my view that if the Chamber credits his evidence related to the map
16 and the pro forma statement, which I believe it can do because the
17 reliability of that evidence does not wholly depend on the credibility.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome, I don't think there's any need to
19 address us on how his evidence is to be treated.
20 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. So Your Honour, I'm asking leave
21 to re-add VG-1 45 to the Prosecution list in its rebuttal case. I have
22 asked a member of my staff to be in contact with VWS to make a
23 preliminary plans so that to avoid any delay should the Chamber grant
24 this application. Of course, I will not -- I've asked him to allow him
25 to board any plane until the Chamber makes a decision on my request. So
1 I ask the Chamber to give serious consideration to re-adding VG-145.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ivetic.
3 MR. IVETIC: One very major objection we would is to that is as
4 Your Honours know, I'm here solo. Mr. Alarid who had prepared for VG-145
5 when he was initially scheduled to testify is not here, will not be here
6 this week at all as Your Honours already know from the filings we've
7 already done. Due to the history of the case, obviously we decided that
8 it would be improper for me to cross-examine this witness based upon the
9 allegations this witness has made. Therefore, we are in a position that
10 if he is to be brought -- if the Trial Chamber is going to consider this
11 application, by the Prosecution, we have no one here available to
12 cross-examine him. And that would be very unfair and unjust to the
13 Defence particularly in light of the evidence that has been led as to
14 this individual and how we have shed light on his -- on the nature of his
15 allegations to the point that Your Honours have seen --
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, we'll give our decision within an
17 hour or two.
18 Please call the next witness, I think it's a Court witness.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cole.
20 [The witness entered court]
21 MR. COLE: I wonder if I could be heard as a preliminary matter,
22 Your Honours, while the witness is being brought in. Now, this witness,
23 Mr. Kurspahic has been recalled to be asked questions about the victims
24 of the Pionirska fire. Just in the event that it might be suggested by
25 the Defence in the event, Your Honours, that it might be suggested by the
1 Defence that the information provided by Mr. Kurspahic in a recent phone
2 call is all new material, I should just like to point out the following:
3 He testified in the Mitar Vasiljevic trial in 2001, and much of the
4 information --
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cole, I have developed the practice that
6 interventions of the kind that you are making now should be made during
7 the course of the evidence and not before, when it arises, and I'd prefer
8 if you would wait until it comes up in during cross-examination.
9 MR. COLE: Your Honour, the reason that I was raising it now, it
10 was effectively a prelude to asking that there be no leading questions
11 from counsel because of the situation of the information that they have
12 available. Just to save time in due course me standing up and objecting.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, well, I will make that clear. In any
14 event, that's the rule.
15 MR. IVETIC: But, Your Honour, he is being recalled for the
16 cross-examination by the Defence, so I'm entitled to lead him. He was a
17 Prosecution witness. When new information developed, we asked to recall
18 him, so he is still essentially being recalled for cross-examination.
19 That is the only reason we brought him here. We've already had him
20 testify once. We have want to ask him about this new information that he
21 has since he testified here.
22 MR. COLE: Your Honour, that is the reason that I started out on
23 this brief introduction. The Defence have had --
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: He is a Chamber witness. He is a Chamber
25 witness, yes.
1 MR. COLE: Well, what I'm trying to say, sir --
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think either party may put any questions to
3 him. Either party. He is a witness of the Court, and I will allow
4 either party to put any questions to him whether it is seen as
5 examination-in-chief or as leading. He is properly a Chamber witness and
6 therefore liable to be questioned by either party.
7 Let the witness make the declaration.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
9 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
10 WITNESS: HUSO KURSPAHIC.
11 [Witness answered through interpreter]
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit. I think it's appropriate for the
13 Defence to begin.
14 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour. And for purposes of the
15 protection of other witnesses who have been subjected to protective
16 measures, one moment, I forgot one, I would like to have a pseudonym
17 sheet before the witness so he can know which witness I'm referring to
18 when I use the pseudonyms as these proceedings are being led in open
20 Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic:
21 Q. Sir, first of all, let me introduce myself. My name is
22 Dan Ivetic, and I'm one of the attorneys for the Defence of Milan Lukic,
23 and certain revelations have happened since the last time you were here
24 which we were trying to make sense of and that's why we are here to help
25 us understand that new evidence. Now, while we are waiting for the sheet
1 to reach you, sir, first of all, am I correct that you are not seeking
2 protective measures, and I can refer to you by name?
3 A. Yes, you can.
4 Q. Thank you, sir. And I understand we can take a copy of the
5 pseudonym sheet, so I will ask you my preliminary questions; first of
6 all, sir, has anyone met with you to prepare or proof you for your
7 testimony prior to today for this testimony?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Thank you. And, sir, did you, in fact, have a telephone
10 discussion with the Office of the Prosecution within the last several
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And could you tell us about each and every telephone conversation
14 you've had with staff from the Office of the Prosecution of this Tribunal
15 in the past several months?
16 A. It only happened once and it was a brief conversation. I cannot
17 recall the exact date.
18 Q. Sir, we've been provided with information from the Office of the
19 Prosecution that, in fact, on March -- on or about March the 4th of 2009,
20 they had a telephonic discussion with you. Does that refresh your
21 recollection as to when the conversation would have been had between you
22 and the Prosecution?
23 A. Most probably it was on that day. I really don't know.
24 Q. All right. Sir, I see that the pseudonym sheet has made its way
25 to you. You see there pseudonyms for several, I believe it is maybe,
1 five or six named persons, I believe all those persons are known to you.
2 I would ask for their protection that we honour their protective measures
3 and we use their pseudonyms there instead of their names. So, sir, you
4 can keep that sheet in front of you so that you can refer to it if need
6 Now, if we can return to this telephone call with the Office of
7 the Prosecutor. Do you recall or was it represented to you who from the
8 Office of the Prosecutor was on the phone with you?
9 A. I don't know who the interpreter was, although they introduced
10 themselves. I think there was a Mr. Steven [phoen]who was there, and a
11 female interpreter interpreting his words. I wasn't very interested in
12 who was representing whom.
13 Q. That's fair enough, sir. Now, when they called you, did they
14 tell you the subject matter or reason for which they were calling?
15 A. I didn't understand it fully well. I think they said that there
16 might be a need for me to appear before the Court again and that some
17 things may need clarification. I said that if need be, I'm prepared to
18 appear again.
19 Q. In the course of that telephone conversation with the Office of
20 the Prosecutor was it made known to you that there had been a recent
21 filing made by the Defence of Milan Lukic alleging problems with the list
22 of victims, and that certain victims were alleged to be alive?
23 A. It was precisely about the list and the names of individuals.
24 That's why I'm here today.
25 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, let me take a step backwards first. Are
1 you familiar with the indictment handed down by this Tribunal against
2 Milan Lukic, including the Annex A, which would be the annex of alleged
3 victims from the Pionirska Street alleged incident?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And did you have an opportunity to review that Annex A list of
6 victims prior to the time that you testified in this Tribunal last time?
7 A. I have that list from a previous hearing in the case of
8 Mitar Vasiljevic. I think some of the names have been corrected. I
9 don't know where the mistake occurred though. When it took place, people
10 were uncertain who survived, who did not. Later on some people
11 resurfaced alive. I have a list, and I can go name by name here before
12 the Court with all the names and the houses where people lived. I have
13 it all with me, and if necessary, I can inform the Bench. Also I can
14 show you the whole list, and I believe it to be authentic and precise.
15 Q. Thank you, sir, I appreciate your comments.
16 Now, before we get to all that, I'd look to ask you, since you
17 have testified, I believe, you've testified in this case, did you also
18 testify previously in one of the other cases of the Tribunal about the
19 alleged incident at Pionirska?
20 A. Yes, I did. In the case of Mitar Vasiljevic. During the
21 critical period, he was near the building, and I provided a statement
22 against Mitar Vasiljevic basically; and I also, I think, on the 8th of
23 August last year, I gave a statement against Milan and Sredoje. This
24 would be my third time.
25 Q. Thank you, sir. And you would agree with me that on the two
1 prior occasion that is you testified before this Tribunal, you had an
2 opportunity to correct any information on that list of victims from the
3 Annex A of the indictment if you had known that such information was
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, private session.
5 [Private session]
7 [Open session]
8 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
9 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
10 Q. And, sir, just to finish up on that point that we started on
11 before the digression. In fact, I believe when you testified here the
12 last time you had, in fact, made some corrections or clarifications by
13 way of a proofing statement with Mr. Stevan Cole, the Office of the
14 Prosecution done just before you testified here that day; isn't that
16 A. Yes. Go ahead.
17 Q. Now, the problem that we have or the question that we have I
18 guess is related to you, I should say, is that with respect to the
19 victims, the named victims in Annex A of the indictment, we'd like to
20 know how it is possible that between 1992, and for instance when you
21 testified last here at the Tribunal, you did not know of the corrections
22 that you've now given most recently on or about March the 4th of 2009,
23 that were only -- it would seem to an outside observer those corrections
24 were only made after the filing by the Milan Lukic Defence bringing into
25 question the list, so I would like to know when you --
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute. Mr. Cole.
2 MR. COLE: My learned friend is doing this in a global way, in
3 other words suggesting that they are all in the same category, and they
4 are not. And in fairness to the witness, they should be put individually
5 rather than the global fashion because the witness made a number of
6 corrections, for example, in his testimony during the Vasiljevic trial
7 and it's not all new. So my objection is that this should be done in an
8 individual fashion rather than a global fashion, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, put them individually.
10 MR. IVETIC: I will do that, Your Honours.
11 If we can call up then 1D22-900.
12 Q. Sir, what is coming up on a screen is a document that was
13 disclosed to the Defence by the Prosecution that purports to record or
14 chronicle the clarifications resulting from your March 4th, 2009
15 telephonic discussion of a member of the Office of the Prosecution
16 although this document does not identify with whom you had the
18 MR. IVETIC: And to allay the fears of the Prosecution, this
19 ought to be the redacted version, I believe. Let me just double-check,
21 So we should probably not publish it until the full page comes
22 up, so I can see whether it is the redacted or the unredacted. If you
23 just scroll down, I'll find out right away. This is the unredacted, so
24 this actually should not be published, but it will help us to have the
25 witness have the full information before him.
1 Q. Now, sir, looking at this list, I'd first like to go through
2 Jasmina Delija. When is the first time that you remembered she is
3 actually the same person as Jasmina or Mina Kurspahic as she is placed in
4 the annex of victims?
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
6 MR. COLE: Yes, Your Honour, you can see from the note before the
7 witness that counsel is misrepresenting the information that's there.
8 And I don't know whether the witness can read English, but perhaps the
9 contents of the -- in fairness, the contents of the actual notes should
10 be put to him rather than paraphrasing the way counsel is at the moment,
11 which seems to be misrepresenting what is there. You can see,
12 Your Honour, that that note, in fact, just gives a maiden name, not as
13 the way counsel has described it.
14 MR. IVETIC: Let me try a different question.
15 Q. Sir, perhaps you and I can understand ourselves better if I say
16 it this way, Jasmina Kurspahic was also known as Mina Kurspahic; isn't
17 that correct, sir?
18 A. May I say something? Yes, yes.
19 Q. And Jasmina Kurspahic known as Mina Kurspahic became married and
20 her name was then Jasmina Delija; isn't that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. So would you agree with me that when you say, and I'll put to you
23 what the notes from your telephonic discussions say: The maiden name of
24 Jasmina Delija was Kurspahic; am I correct in understanding that to mean
25 that Jasmina Delija and Mina Kurspahic are the same person, sir?
1 A. Yes. What is there to be disputed?
2 Q. In the --
3 A. There's no other Jasmina on the list. No other
4 Jasmina Kurspahic. I came before the Tribunal with this document
5 specifying the names and families from A to Z. I can stay here for five
6 days, if we need to clarify each and every fact. Ask me whatever you
8 Q. I would like to ask you everything, and I will hopefully get to
9 do that. But you have to cooperate with me. I will present you
10 everything, you can answer and the other side will have an opportunity to
11 ask if I've forgotten anything. Now, the question I have for you, sir,
12 is with respect to the individual we have just mentioned, you've
13 indicated there is no other; but, sir, the same person appears as number
14 43 on the list and as number 4 on the list, Jasmina Delija,
15 Mina Kurspahic. Now, I'd like to ask you: Did you know of this error on
16 the list prior to your testimony last time before this Tribunal?
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cole.
18 MR. COLE: Yes, my learned friends is misrepresenting what is in
19 the indictment, what is in the note, and is with respect, I think the
20 witness is being misled. What counsel is trying to do is to get this
21 witness to confirm that it's the same person under two different names on
22 the Annex A; but it hasn't been made clear to the witness with respect by
23 the nature of the questions. Now, I think the first thing that needs to
24 be made clear to the witness is that counsel is referring to names on the
25 annex to the indictment, and the --
1 MR. IVETIC: I've stated at least five times, Your Honour, and
2 Mr. Cole had adequate opportunity to do his examination --
3 MR. COLE: I'm objecting to counsel.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute, let me hear Mr. Cole.
5 MR. COLE: Yes, I've lost my train of thought now, sir.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Don't allow Mr. Ivetic to have that effect on
7 you, Mr. Cole.
8 MR. COLE: In fairness to the witness if counsel is suggesting
9 that two persons in Annex A are the same person, he should put that to
10 the witness without beating around so the witness can address that
11 particularly, sir, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
13 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour, I'll have to back up to see
14 the question that was posed.
15 Q. Sir, on the list, that is to say on Annex A from the second
16 amended indictment against Milan Lukic, at position number 4 we have a
17 Jasmina Delija, and at position number 43 we have a Mina Kurspahic; and
18 I'd like to ask you given your knowledge of the names and the
19 individuals, would you agree with me that this is the same person listed
21 A. Yes. Now, is that important at all, whether one person was
22 burnt, 20 people burnt, 50 people burnt. Mr. President, may I be allowed
23 to say this, you are tying me to a detail here. The fact of the matter
24 is that the young girl married, changed her surname, her nickname is Mina
25 and her real name is Jasmina, so where is the problem.
1 Q. The problem is when witnesses come here and testify under oath we
2 expect that the information is true and correct, sir, and that is what we
3 are trying to ascertain with respect to the evidence that has been led by
4 the Prosecution what evidence is true and correct and what is not. And
5 that's what we are here to help us with your knowledge, sir, and I would
6 beg your indulgence and your patience because we will go through all of
7 your clarifications, and I will give you an ample opportunity to explain
8 all of them.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Ivetic, he has answered, please
10 proceed, remember you have half an hour, no more. The same applies to
11 Mr. --
12 MR. IVETIC: But --
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: The same applies to Mr. Cole unless I give you
14 more time.
15 MR. IVETIC: But, Your Honour, he is not a rebuttal witness. All
16 right. I will try and proceed through it, Your Honours. As you can see
17 it's difficult though with the objections.
18 Q. Now, okay, we've done that one. Did you know about this error on
19 Annex A of the indictment prior to your testimony last time?
20 A. I didn't know. Had I known, I would have put it right, so what
21 is the problem now? I didn't add to the list those 22 names that I could
22 have, I'm here to clear things up, to tell you what the facts were so
23 that we can establish the truth, the real truth. That is why I am here
24 today, sir. Now I allow you to ask me precisely the questions you want
25 me to answer. I've been engaged in matters like this. I've done jobs
1 like this for 20 years, so I know what all this is about but go ahead,
2 ask me precisely.
3 Q. With all due respect, I've been asking you precisely. And let's
4 move along precisely. Now, if we look at item D on your list, you
5 state -- pardon me, the Prosecution represents as to your statement: "He
6 believes that Aner Kurspahic, son of Latifa Kurspahic is alive and in
7 Austria." Now --
8 A. Yes, and he is not on the list. He is not on the list.
9 Q. Sir, he is number 15 on the list. He is on the list. Let me
10 finish my questions, and we'll get through this much easier. Now, you
11 identify this as the son of Latifa Kurspahic, are we to assume from this
12 information that you know Latifa Kurspahic is alive?
13 A. Yes, she is alive, living in Austria, has two daughters. She is
14 living in Austria with her two daughters in Austria. What more do you
15 want to know?
16 Q. And now with respect to Meva Kurspahic, at H on your list; isn't
17 it correct that this is the wife of Hasan, the mother Omer, and the
18 grandmother of Aner?
19 A. I haven't got that list, what list are you look at, sir, because
20 I don't have a list like that, and I never did.
21 Q. The one in front of you.
22 A. You are asking me some things that are aren't linked to this
23 trial. You can't do that.
24 Q. Sir, let me read to you what the Office of the Prosecution says
25 what you told them, and we'll see whether it's a left thing or not. And
1 I quote, "He," meaning you, "is aware of Meva Kurspahic, mother of Omer
2 and Fikret, who is now dead, but whom he believes was not killed in the
3 Pionirska fire."
4 Now do we understand each other about which Meva we are talking
5 about, sir?
6 A. Yes, and she wasn't burnt in the fire. She died in Sarajevo and
7 was buried after that. So where is this Meva on the list? Show me.
8 I've never seen that list.
9 Q. Sir, sir, she is number 42 on the list. Now, sir, given what
10 you've testified about here today now as to these individuals, would you
11 agree with me that we can take off of the list of victims Meva, Latifa --
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. -- her daughters. Wait until I finish, sir.
14 A. Yes.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Can you give us the numbers, Mr. Ivetic.
16 MR. IVETIC: Actually, no, I can't, Your Honours, because of the
17 duplication of names on the list there is a submission we've filed
18 pursuant to the sworn testimony of CW1, protected witness CW1, which
19 clarifies her testimony; so I would refer to that submission as to the
20 names of persons who follow --
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well, proceed.
22 MR. IVETIC:
23 Q. Now, you would agree with me that that entire family did not
24 perish in Pionirska; is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And did you happen to be at Meva Kurspahic's funeral that
2 occurred in the past five years in Sarajevo?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Now, when or how long have you known that the direct family of
5 Omer Kurspahic did not perish in Pionirska? Was it before either of the
6 two times you testified here previously?
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Cole.
8 MR. COLE: Yes. I wonder, Your Honour, if we could just be clear
9 when we talk about a whole family, it's a rather indistinct expression.
10 If we could know exactly which members he is referring to, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Ivetic, that's a fair question.
12 MR. IVETIC: It is.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Why don't you just name the persons in the
14 family that you have in mind.
15 MR. IVETIC:
16 Q. Sir, for those persons who are not familiar with the names of the
17 various Kurspahic family, I will have to go through all of them, would
18 you agree with me that the family of Omer Kurspahic, that is to say his
19 wife, Lejla; his two daughters; his son, Aner; his mother, Meva; his
20 father, Hasan were not at Koritnik at the time of the alleged Pionirska
21 fire and, therefore, did not perish in the fire as is alleged in the
22 indictment and in the list of victims?
23 A. That's right, they weren't, but I haven't got the list, may I
24 take a look at the list on the screen and see who compiled the list? The
25 Prosecution's here. Could I have the list, could they show me the list
1 or the Trial Chamber, so that I can see the list because you keep asking
2 me the number based on the list and I don't have it in front of me.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So you are trying --
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute, just a minute, please. You will
6 be shown the list as it appears in the annex.
7 MR. IVETIC: Unfortunately I only have a clean English version of
8 the same, but I believe the names should be able to be read, they are the
9 same in B/C/S, in English, the names.
10 Q. Now, sir, the question I had for you was with respect to this
11 family --
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just let him look at the list for a minute or
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Okay. Now, tell me what number
15 Aner is under and Meva? I'm asking the Defence.
16 MR. IVETIC:
17 Q. Aner is number 15 on the list.
18 THE INTERPRETER: Would the counsel please speak into the
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ivetic, you are being asked to speak into
21 the microphone.
22 MR. IVETIC: I apologise.
23 Q. Aner is number 15 on the list.
24 A. Aner, I have never seen this list before. It's not something I
25 had, and I certainly didn't write it. And the truth is, that he wasn't
1 there, but Milan Lukic took him out of the car with his father and uncle
2 and Milan took him away, straightaway. Yes, go ahead.
3 Q. Before we begin, before we began I asked you if you were familiar
4 with the indictment and Annex A the list of victims in the indictment and
5 whether you had reviewed the same prior to testifying, sir. And you had
6 answered in the affirmative. That is a public document. It's a document
7 that was published. It is a document that we are defending in this case.
8 This is what the Prosecution provided us as to the victims of the alleged
9 incident, and I'd like to go through with you, sir.
10 A. This is a mistake that the Prosecution made and failed to put
11 right on time. But I stand by everything I've said here. It is correct
12 and truthful, and I'm here to establish the truth and I have absolutely
13 no reason to add anything or take anything away, add a name or subtract a
14 name. That's in nobody's interest. It's not in the interests of this
15 Tribunal or the Defence or anybody else.
16 Q. With all deference to you I'm trying not to interrupt you, sir,
17 but we have a limited time. And we have a long way to go. And I would
18 ask you to look at the list that has now been provided for you, and you
19 ask me to identify where persons are listed. I already told you about
20 Aner. We have Latifa at 36; Lejla at 37; we have 42, Meva; we've had
21 some evidence that 38, Majda, might be the other daughter of Latifa; we
22 have Hasan at number 26. We have --
23 A. Hasan disappeared. Hasan went missing. There are two Hasans:
24 Hasan Kurspahic, Hajra's son, and this is Alija's son, Fikret Alija.
25 Q. Sir --
1 A. Yes, go ahead.
2 Q. Before we --
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ivetic, let's get some order into it. Let's
4 start with what you are going to put to him those names on the list that
5 you say should not be there, you are starting first with 15, Aner.
6 MR. IVETIC: I'm starting by the categories of his
7 clarifications, Your Honour, that are in the document on the screen right
8 now. I don't know necessarily that they were all be on the list to take
9 off, that's why I'm asking the gentleman what he knew. What I'm more
10 concerned about is when did he find out this information because again
11 we've had witnesses come here and testify and affirm the very same annex
12 on multiple occasions. And now after we do some investigations, we find
13 out that they have known that persons shouldn't be on the list. That is
14 what the real crux of our submission is to find out when they knew this
15 information, and whether, therefore, the testimony that they gave at this
16 Tribunal is --
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: You have already asked him that, haven't you?
18 MR. IVETIC: With respect to this particular family, I have asked
19 and he has not answered. I've asked about the Jasmina Delija, and he has
20 answered. So I'm going through all his clarifications to find out
21 exactly --
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: But go through them one by one, and let's
23 proceed that way.
24 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Where are you now?
1 MR. IVETIC: I'm right now going to I'm at D on his list, which
2 is where we started talking about Aner Kurspahic, the family, the direct
3 family of Omer Kurspahic.
4 Q. And, sir, when did you know that that family was not a family
5 that had been in Koritnik at the time of the alleged Pionirska incident
6 and, therefore, could not have been alleged at the alleged Pionirska
7 incident? When did you know that, sir?
8 A. Afterwards when Hasan and Meva returned from Austria was it in
9 1997 thereabouts when I met Hasan, and he has died since. I didn't know
10 before that.
11 Q. So sometime in 1997. Now, if I can ask you about the
12 individuals --
13 A. I don't know exactly, so don't insist on that.
14 Q. Let me clarify to you. Was it before you testified here, sir?
15 A. Afterwards. After the first time. I don't know, I really don't
16 know, and this is the first time that I'm looking at this list here.
17 Q. Let me ask you another question. You say that Meva and Hasan
18 returned from Austria, am I correct that they resided in Sarajevo?
19 A. Yes, afterwards, 1997 or 1998 when they returned. They lived in
20 Sarajevo. They died in Sarajevo, both of them, and were buried in
22 Q. With respect to the names on the pseudonym sheet now, sir, that
23 is VG-18, VG-78, VG-84, and VG-13, do you know if any of those other
24 relatives or persons of yours had contact with and knew of the fact that
25 this family had not been in Koritnik and had not been at the Pionirska
2 A. I don't know whether they know that. I really couldn't say
3 because I don't know.
4 Q. Fair enough. Did you attend any funerals for either Meva or
6 A. I've already said where I was, yes, at both funerals. They are
7 relatives of mine, yes, I did attend.
8 Q. Thank you, sir. What about VG-18, VG-78, VG-84, and VG-13, were
9 they at either of those funerals, sir?
10 A. I don't know.
11 Q. Thank you. We can move along. Now, with respect to these
12 clarifications that you gave to the Office of the Prosecution on the
13 4th of March, 2009, have you talked with VG-18, VG-78, VG-84, or VG-31
14 [sic] about those clarifications and corrections?
15 A. No, no, I didn't do anything. They are separate, I don't know
16 when they came, when they were here. I don't know that. I know when I
17 was here and what I said, and I'm here to confirm everything that I've
18 already said. You can ask me everything from A to Z, one by one, name
19 and surname and that's how you'll get the exact names, the first and last
20 names, and I'll state them before this Trial Chamber. One by one from A
21 to Z from 1 the first number to whatever the last number is.
22 Q. Staying with VG-18, VG-78, VG-84 and VG-31 [sic] did you have
23 occasion to see them at a protest organised by Bakira Hasecic in the
24 village of Koritnik on or about March the 9th, 2009?
25 A. What date did you say?
1 Q. On or about March 9th?
2 MR. COLE: Your Honour. I understand the purpose this witness is
3 here is to discuss the victims and the list of names on the schedule.
4 Now, the Defence had ample opportunity when Mr. Kurspahic was here last
5 time in September to cross-examine, and they did cross-examine; but they
6 didn't ask anything about victims. I'm going to suggest, Your Honour,
7 that we don't have a lot of time, that they confine their
8 cross-examination now to the matters that Your Honours have pointed to,
9 the matters that have been raised in the note that's before the witness,
10 rather than digressing on to other witnesses. We'll be here all day,
12 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I thought that truth finding was the
13 main job of this Tribunal, and I, for one, am appalled by the Office of
14 the Prosecution tactics in this case with respect to the major element of
15 this indictment that the list of victims is finding out to have persons
16 that did not perish, or are alive. That is an affront to this system,
17 and I don't know what the Prosecution is afraid of, but I want to find
18 out the truth of all of this and --
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, thank you.
20 MR. IVETIC: -- ask my questions.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ivetic, you may continue.
22 MR. IVETIC:
23 Q. And you said there were two -- first of all, question I wanted to
24 ask you before, with respect to VG-18, VG-78, VG-84, and/or VG-31 [sic],
25 did you have contact with any of them at a protest, organised by
1 Bakira Hasecic of the associating of women victims of war held in the
2 village of Koritnik, in the municipality of Visegrad on or about the 9th
3 of March, 2009, less than one month ago?
4 A. I was in Koritnik, sir. I was in my village Koritnik from where
5 these victims were from on the 8th of April, and we had all survived, all
6 those who had survived were there; and all the locals of Koritnik were in
7 the village and we commemorated that day at each individual house. And
8 I'd like to ask the President of this Tribunal to take a look at this
9 piece of paper where we were: Every house is marked here, the family,
10 the individuals, the first and last names, and the number of people who
11 died in the house; so if you need this I'll help you there.
12 Q. I really must insist that you answer my question. Did you have
13 contact with VG-18, VG-78, VG-84, and/or VG-13 when you were in Koritnik?
14 A. Yes. Yes. I'm not hiding anything. They are my relatives.
15 Yes, I have contact with them all the time.
16 Q. Did you at that time talk with them about clarifications that
17 needed to be made, correction that needed to be made, persons that were
18 wrongfully on the list of victims, sir? Did you have conversations with
19 them at that time, sir?
20 A. No, and I don't think they know about it either. I can guarantee
21 with my life, they don't know about this list. I know that I've never
22 seen this list before.
23 Q. Sir, they were present, at least some of them were presented,
24 with this list and affirmed it on behalf of the Prosecution; and I have
25 evidence from another witness that, in fact, they were present at some of
1 the funerals and, therefore, know precisely what the persons we've
2 already talked about that they are alive and not on the list, sir; so I
3 take umbrance [sic] with that assertion that is contrary to the evidence.
4 But let me please focus us --
5 A. What, which?
6 MR. COLE: My learned friend is giving evidence from where he
7 stands at the bar, and I would just ask that he put proper questions to
8 the witness and treat the witness with respect, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Ivetic. No comments, just proceed with
10 the questions and we'll get on more quicker.
11 MR. IVETIC: I apologise. It's very clear I've been trying to
12 treat the witness with the utmost of respect and not trying to interrupt
13 him, but that is very serious matter and very serious consequences.
14 Q. Now, sir, you mentioned that Hasan disappeared and went missing
15 and we are talking now about Alija's son.
16 A. Never said that. That's not what it says. Hasan Kurspahic,
17 Hajra's son, he was the one. All right.
18 Q. He wasn't at Pionirska either, is that your testimony?
19 A. He was, and he disappeared. He was burnt, Hajra's son.
20 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... item number C on your list,
21 sir. I'm going to read it to you, it says one of his sisters who
22 perished in the Pionirska fire was known by the name of Hana Kurspahic
23 and also Hasiba Kurspahic. Is that a correction you made with the
24 Prosecution on or about the 4th of March, 2009?
25 MR. COLE: Your Honour, that mis-characterizes what is on the
1 document. I heard my learned friends say correction, now, that's hardly
2 a correction giving another name that a person is known by, so I would
3 object to it being characterized that way, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Hana Kurspahic, they call her Hana;
6 but her real name is Hasiba, it's the same person, and it's my sister.
7 MR. IVETIC:
8 Q. And would VG-18, VG-78, VG-13, VG-84, would they all know about
9 this same name being applied to the same person?
10 A. Well, I don't know whether they know her real name. Hasiba is
11 her real name, Hana is what we called her, everybody called her Hana.
12 But Hasiba is her real name, her full name, and she was always called
14 Q. Sir, sir, I really must insist, we don't have all the time in the
15 world. I need to have answers to my very precise questions. I've been
16 trying very hard to be very precise. To the extent that Hana and Hasiba
17 are both listed as separate persons on the index in the indictment at
18 numbers 25 and 27, I believe, would you agree with me that that is an
19 error on the list in the indictment and therefore one of those names is a
21 MR. COLE: Of course, Your Honours, there may be many persons
22 with the same name as in the case of Hana, and I think in fairness that
23 should be part of the proposition put to him. This witness is --
24 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, it's amazing I have to do the work of
25 the Prosecution to investigate this case. This is --
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute, please. We want to move ahead as
2 quickly as possible. What was the last question?
3 MR. IVETIC: The last question was if numbers 25 and 27 on the
4 list are both Hana and Hasiba reflected as separate individuals would you
5 agree with me they are the same person and one is a duplicate of the
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: What is the answer to that.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it's one person. One in the
9 same person.
10 MR. IVETIC: Okay.
11 Q. If we look at item number F on your sheet that the Prosecution
12 gave to me it says, and I'll read it for you so you can have it in your
13 language: Hasnija Kurspahic is possibly the same person as Pasana or
14 Pasija Kurspahic.
15 A. Pasija is the real name. She is Hasnija's mother. I don't know
16 what people are called, but I know that Pasija is her real name.
17 Q. To the extent that number 28 on the list in the indictment is
18 Hasnija and number 50 on the list is Pasana or Pasija would you agree
19 with me then that that is the same person and duplicate and an error on
20 the list of alleged victims from Pionirska?
21 A. Yes. Yes, it's just Pasija. That's it. So it's one person here
23 Q. Thank you, sir. Would that be something that would be commonly
24 known so that VG-18, VG-78, VG-84, and VG-13 ought to also know that
25 Hasnija is the same person as Pasija?
1 A. Well, I don't know what you are actually asking me, why you are
2 asking me about them. You had an opportunity of asking them so don't ask
3 me about them otherwise I'm not going to say anything. You had your
4 chance if they were here in court then you could have talked to them
5 about that.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, please listen to me. Please listen to
7 me carefully.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, go ahead.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: I want you to answer the questions that counsel
10 puts to you. If any question is out of order, I will stop him. That's
11 my job. Now, let's go ahead. And let's -- how much longer do you have,
12 Mr. Ivetic?
13 MR. IVETIC: At this point Your Honour, I don't even know I've
14 been thrown off with simple questions that take long to answer, and
15 there's objections, I would hope to finish within the first session is my
16 original estimate; but I see now that we are already one hour and ten
17 minutes into it, and I'm approximately halfway through my list of
18 questions, so -- list of areas, I should say.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cole.
21 MR. COLE: Yes, Your Honour, we can shorten this, if this witness
22 isn't asked what other people know, it's not a proper area of
23 cross-examination, the witness, what other people know or might know and
24 it can shorten things in any event. And it seems that my learned friend
25 is going back to that issue time and again.
1 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, if I can make a representation on that
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: I don't wants to hear you on it. Just proceed
4 with the questioning. Let's end this examination-in-chief.
5 MR. IVETIC: Well then I would ask you to reconsider your order
6 denying us to bring back the other VG-18, VG-78, VG-84, VG-13, Your
7 Honours. This is the only witness that we represent --
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Go ahead with the questioning.
9 MR. IVETIC: Okay.
10 Q. Would that be something that would be commonly known that VG-18,
11 VG-78, VG-8,4 and VG-13 also should know that Hasnija is the same person
12 as Pasija?
13 A. Well, I guess they should know, they lived in the same village.
14 Pasija had a daughter by the name of Hasnija. She did not die in the
15 fire. That's not the same person. Hasnija is Pasija's daughter.
16 Hasnija got killed and Pasija was not killed.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, next question.
18 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
19 Q. Item G on your list of clarifications as represented by the
20 Office of the Prosecution says:
21 "He is aware of another Ismeta Kurspahic, but he believes she
22 lives in Bihac, and has always lived there."
23 The question I have for you is would you agree with me to your
24 knowledge there are only two Ismeta Kurspahic's: One who has always
25 lived in Bihac, and, therefore, was not in Visegrad in 1992; and the one
1 who was in Visegrad and is listed as an alleged victim in Annex A of the
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Now, sir, insofar as we have had -- so far as we have had a
5 document in this case, the Visegrad Health Centre's log-books for the
6 record that would be ERN 0545-2135, the second page of that would be
7 0545-2136. We have an entry for the 18th of June for a Ismeta Kurspahic.
8 If that document is accurate, sir, would you then agree with me that the
9 Ismeta Kurspahic listed as having perished in the Pionirska fire may well
10 have not perished in that alleged incident?
11 A. She was killed. That is correct. It is incorrect that she
12 reported down there in Visegrad.
13 Q. Sir, we have a document that states that is a person by the name
14 of Ismeta Kurspahic was treated at the Visegrad health --
15 MR. IVETIC: I see Mr. Cole on his feet.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
17 MR. COLE: Sir, counsel has his answer. He is repeating the
18 question, it seems, to the witness.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
20 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
21 Q. And if I may complete my question since I was not repeating the
22 answer. Now, we have a document that states that a person by the name of
23 Ismeta Kurspahic was treated at the Visegrad Health Centre, June 18th of
24 1992; would you agree with me that apart from the Ismeta Kurspahic that
25 you say was killed in the fire on the 14th of June, there are no other
1 persons with that name in Visegrad who could have applied to the Visegrad
2 Health Centre?
3 And I'm told the document is 1D22-0898 if it is something that is
4 required to be shown on the screen.
5 A. There is no other Ismeta. The one in Bihac was not there. She
6 was not in the census of 1991 in Visegrad because she resided in Bihac.
7 MR. IVETIC: Okay. Now -- well, we have the document coming up
8 but he has answered the question so I don't think we need it, although --
9 well, I guess at this time I would tender this as the next available 1D
10 exhibit to get that out of the way, the selected pages from the log-book
11 of the Visegrad Health Centre. I don't know whether we have a
12 translation so perhaps it should be MFI'd.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Marked for identity.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 1D225, marked for identification,
15 Your Honours.
16 MR. IVETIC: Thank you. If we can go back to the last document
17 which was the 1D --
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I ask a question?
19 MR. IVETIC: [Previous translation continues] ... sir, I'm asking
20 questions here and, we'll get through this.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's correct, that's correct. What is it that
22 you wish to say.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There's only a first and last name.
24 There's no date of birth, no father's name or anything else on the list.
25 This is a fictitious list that I can draw up or you. In the former
1 Yugoslavia especially in the area of Visegrad, you can get any documents
2 in exchange for money, and I stand by what I said.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.
4 MR. IVETIC: The Prosecution's Annex A listing the alleged
5 victims for the Pionirska Street incident also does not have father's
6 last name.
7 Q. Sir, I have a question for you, you've just told us some very
8 interesting evidence. Sir, sir, listen to me, please.
9 A. Do you want me to help you or not?
10 Q. You've given us some very important evidence. The Prosecution's
11 Annex A to the indictment also does not have JMBG numbers, does not have
12 father's name, does not have date of birth; are you testifying now that
13 the Prosecution's list was procured by payments and is a false document?
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, I'm not allowing that. Don't answer that
15 question. Just proceed -- do not answer that question. Do not answer
16 it: Proceed to the next question.
17 MR. IVETIC: I will, Your Honours. If we could scroll down or
18 have the whole page on the screen, it would appreciate me [sic]. There
19 it is, J.
20 Q. Sir, at J, the Prosecution in their telephonic discussion with
21 you recorded you as saying: He is aware of a Saha Kurspahic, an old lady
22 he believes she was left behind by the group on the day of fire and was
23 picked up by the bus, and was, therefore, not killed in the fire. And
24 the question that I have for you, sir, do you agree with me now that
25 Saha Kurspahic listed as victim number 53 approximately 70 years old in
1 1992 on the Prosecution's list is incorrect and should be taken off the
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Sorry, Mr. Cole. Just a minute. Witness,
4 Witness. Please listen to me. Counsel is on his feet. When counsel is
5 on his feet, you stop. What do you have to say, Mr. Cole.
6 MR. COLE: Yes, the question is assuming evidence -- matters that
7 are not in evidence putting together the name and a person on the
8 schedule in the indictment. Now, that is an improper way to deal with
9 the witness. If I can just have a moment, yes, counsel in his question
10 is assuming that the information on the exhibit before the witness is
11 necessarily tied into the name on the annex, and I think it's unfair to
12 the witness to frame the question in that way.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: I agree. Don't put the questions in that way,
14 Mr. Ivetic.
15 MR. IVETIC: How else am I going to do that, Your Honour, we are
16 going to be here all day.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just ask him whether --
18 MR. IVETIC: If there's another Saha Kurspahic perhaps.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, or whether he has knowledge as to whether
20 that person was alive or dead on the relevant date. But I think Mr. Cole
21 does have a point. It's not for the witness to say whether a name should
22 or should not be on the list. We will decide that ultimately.
23 MR. IVETIC:
24 Q. Sir, with respect to Saha Kurspahic, is there anyone else by that
25 name or is there just the one person that we've been talking about that
1 would have been in Visegrad in June of 1992?
2 A. There was no other. She was not burnt in the fire. It's an old
3 woman who was left behind the column. I stated at the last hearing that
4 she survived the fire, but I attended her funeral later on. There were
5 no two Saha's. Maybe it's just the same person twice. She was not
6 killed in the fire. She survived it.
7 Q. Is this common knowledge that you believe ought to be known to
8 VG-18, VG-78, VG-84, and VG-13 and were they at the funeral?
9 A. I don't know. With us Bosniaks, Muslims --
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. He has answered the question. Next
12 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
13 Q. If we look at your item K and it says:
14 "He is aware of" -- we shouldn't go down further. We shouldn't
15 go down further because that's the part that should be redacted.
16 It says: "He is aware of a Hajraga [phoen] Sehic, who was not
17 filled in the fire." And the question I have to is ask you is this: In
18 Annex A of the indictment, we have -- we have at item number 66 a
19 Haraga Sehic, have you ever heard of a Haraga Sehic existing in Koritnik
20 in June of 1992?
21 A. I knew Hajro Sehic, a man who lived in Mala Gostilje, which is
22 close to Koritnik; however, I was not at Koritnik at the time. I cannot
23 tell you anything about it. He was an elderly person. I don't know if
24 he is still alive or not. I do know, however, that my father told me
25 this man was not at Pionirska Street when the fire took place. I don't
1 know what happened with that person, and he was not an inhabitant of my
2 village in Koritnik where I was.
3 MR. IVETIC: Thank you. I would ask that we now go into private
4 session to discuss the remainder of his clarifications to protect the
5 identity of other individuals.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
7 [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Chamber]
11 Pages 6894-6907 redacted. Private session.
12 Cross-examination by Mr. Cole:
13 Q. Yes, good afternoon, Mr. Kurspahic.
14 A. Good afternoon.
15 Q. Can you just confirm, please, sir that you and I haven't spoken
16 today before your testimony?
17 A. No, we haven't.
18 Q. And can I say at the outset that I'm sorry that you've had to
19 come here again and at such short notice too.
20 I just want to go through some preliminary matters to put your
21 testimony into perspective, and if you would, if you could try just to
22 keep your answers as short as you can for me unless there is a necessary
23 explanation as part of your answer.
24 You were a policeman in Visegrad in 1992, early 1992.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. You left Visegrad in April 1992 to go to Medjedja?
2 A. Yes, well, September 1991, the 21st of September, mobilisation of
3 the reserve police station, reserve force of the police station and I
4 went home two or three times to have a bath and so on, but otherwise I
5 was in Medjedja, yes.
6 Q. Now, your address in Visegrad, did you live in Pionirska Street?
7 A. Pionirska number 11, Visegrad.
8 Q. How far is that house from the house where your relatives and
9 friends were burned to death in June?
10 A. About a 100 to 110 metres. Not more.
11 Q. Now, when you finally abandoned your house in 1992, are you aware
12 of who moved into the house?
13 A. Milan Lukic and his Lukics were in my house, and they kept a goat
14 on the upper story.
15 Q. Now, I'm sorry, sir, to reminds you again, but can you confirm,
16 please, for us, that you lost some close members of your family in the
17 Pionirska fire, your mother, Hata; your sister, Hasiba, known as Hana;
18 your sister, Kada Sehic; and your nephew, Faruk Sehic, son of Kada; can
19 you confirm that is correct?
20 A. Well, yes.
21 Q. And you also lost many other relatives and acquaintances in that
23 A. All of them are relatives, except this man, Redzo Memisevic, all
24 the others were relations of mine.
25 Q. And your father Hasib was one of the few persons who escaped from
1 the burning house?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And he was interviewed shortly after his escape from that house
4 on video, and you can confirm that video interview is an exhibit in this
6 A. Well, yes, that's the first time he gave a statement.
7 Q. Yes.
8 MR. COLE: I think, Your Honour that I've been advised that we
9 are in private session and there's no need to be.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Public session.
11 [Open session]
12 MR. COLE:
13 Q. Yes, Mr. Kurspahic --
14 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
15 MR. COLE:
16 Q. We were talking about your father who escaped from the burning
17 Pionirska house in 1992. Your father subsequently passed away in 1996?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Now, you testified for the first time in the Mitar Vasiljevic
20 trial in 2001?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And during that trial, the list of 51 names produced as Exhibit
23 P39 was produced during that trial, wasn't it?
24 MR. COLE: And I ask that that be shown to you now, both the
25 English and the B/C/S versions. Yes. Does the Court have the B/C/S
1 version? Yes.
2 Q. It's in two pages, I think.
3 A. I can see it, but it's very small print.
4 Q. On the right-hand side we have the English, can you see on the
5 left-hand side the B/C/S version?
6 A. Yes, yes.
7 Q. All right. So you recall that was produced at the first trial in
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And you didn't compile that list yourself. That was compiled by
11 somebody else, wasn't it?
12 A. I did not compile it.
13 Q. And you were called to testify again in this trial and you
14 testified on the 1st of September last year?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And at the first trial and just prior to testifying in September
17 last year, you advised the Court on the first occasion, and the
18 Prosecution on the second occasion, that you believed that the names of
19 Jasarevic should have been Halilovic?
20 A. Yes, it is then that I said it. There was a mistake made by
22 Q. Right. As early as the first trial in 2001, you believed that
23 the name Jasarevic should have been Halilovic; isn't that correct?
24 A. Yes, and I asked for that to be corrected. I wasn't the one
25 making the corrections.
1 Q. Now, perhaps we can just deal with P39 which is in front of you
2 at the moment. I just want to ask you about some of the names in it.
3 And this list as we see it was subsequently corrected on a couple of
4 occasions by you, as you've just indicated, wasn't it?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. So try and do it in an orderly fashion, we won't go through all
7 the names but this is the list that was prepared by somebody else and
8 featured in the Mitar Vasiljevic trial in 2001. The first name, number
9 1, Medo Kurspahic, aged about 50 years; do you believe that that person
10 at item number 1 perished in the Pionirska fire or not?
11 A. He was killed.
12 Q. I am sorry, in English that doesn't completely answer the
13 question. Did he perish in the Pionirska fire in your belief?
14 A. 100 percent. He, his wife, Mustafa and their daughter, Medina.
15 Q. If we move down to item number 9 -- sorry, number 10. It reads
16 Kurspahic a surname only, daughter of Mujesira aged 10 year?
17 A. Mujesira.
18 Q. Sorry, Mujesira. Are you able to give us the name of the girl
19 aged about 10 years. The first name of number 10?
20 A. Yes, I can. If you allow me a moment. In that family of
21 Mujesira there were two children. The wife was Mujesira, daughter Anesa
22 and daughter Halida, one born in 1979, the other one in 1982, and their
23 grandmother Sumbula.
24 Q. If we can just try and concentrate on the question, please,
25 Mr. Kurspahic. Are you able to give us the name of the first name of the
1 10-year-old daughter of Mujesira who perished in the fire in Pionirska?
2 A. One was Anesa the other one was Halida. One was born in 1979,
3 the other one in 1982. They were two girls.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ivetic.
5 MR. IVETIC: If we could know what was before him -- there's a
6 folded piece of paper, if we could have a copy of that and know what that
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, what are you looking at? Witness, just
9 tell us, don't listen to Mr. Ivetic right now. Just tell us, what is it
10 you are looking at?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this is no document
12 of sorts. This is a list with first and last names and years of birth
13 per family. People are listed per family and per household and those are
14 the same people that are on your list. I can leave this with you if you
15 wish, Mr. President, for your perusal.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Did you prepare that list?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Where does it come from?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From the census, and we went by the
20 last names and households. They are disputing that Aisa appeared at the
21 health clinic, where she was burnt; and then for Medo who supposedly
22 launched an application, whereas he was killed. So you have people there
23 by family name. I can give it to the Tribunal.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much. Do you want it.
25 MR. COLE: Yes, Your Honour, can I indicate I haven't seen the
1 list. I'm unaware of what is in it, I would suggest it's appropriate if
2 it's a list compiled by this witness that it be admitted.
3 MR. IVETIC: I'd like to see it first before it's admitted, Your
4 Honours. I might have submissions on it.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, let it be passed to counsel and then to
6 the --
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There's nothing to hide here. Give
8 it to the Defence.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: First to us.
10 MR. IVETIC: And, Your Honours, if it is submitted by the
11 Prosecution for admission at this late stage I believe the Prosecution's
12 case had rested and this is rejoinder evidence; or I don't know what it
13 is, actually, what stage we are in, but causes some technical problem, I
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's a list by families stating who
16 came from which family or household.
17 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, to the extent the list has no names
18 that were not even on the original annex of victim, so to the extent the
19 Prosecution so seeking to amend their charges at this late stage
20 [Overlapping speakers] ...
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: The Prosecution is not seeking to do anything.
22 Just show them the list.
23 MR. IVETIC: [Overlapping speakers]
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's not correct. No one was added
25 to the list.
1 MR. IVETIC: And, Your Honours, the last page says in Serbian,
2 the word is [B/C/S/spoken], which in English -- let me see how it's
3 coming up, I don't see how it was translated which to me indicates that
4 this is a list prepared by someone else giving suggestions and reminders
5 to the witnesses as to how he should testify. I think we need him to
6 clarify that.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please pass the list to counsel and let us get
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You can keep it. I don't need it.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Cole.
11 MR. COLE: I've had the opportunity, Your Honour, to have a look
12 at it. It's obviously a list and the writing --
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can tell what you it says.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Don't speak until you are asked to answer a
15 question. Let's hear from Mr. Cole first.
16 MR. COLE: Of course I understand what it says in addition to the
17 list of names, but I can lay some foundation, find out a bit more about
18 it from the witness and ask for it to be admitted at that stage.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, go ahead.
20 MR. COLE:
21 Q. Witness, the list in front of you, who was the person that
22 physically compiled that list and put it together?
23 A. We organised this in terms of families. For example, I couldn't
24 remember the name of a child who was three years old, and now when the
25 Prosecutor asked me what the name of the child was, that's why I did
1 this. For no other reason.
2 Q. What I would like to find out from you, just briefly, is how many
3 people firstly collaborated in gathering that information that is in the
4 list before you?
5 A. We did, from the different families and households. Every person
6 stated their father's, mother's last name, people did this by families.
7 No institution or organisation was involved. We gave up on this Tribunal
8 or anything else. We were unable to get by any information of the
9 deceased and loved ones for a number of years now. We gave up on seeking
11 Q. Can we do it this way, the list is material that's been gathered
12 from all the interested parties, those that have lost family members in
13 the fire, the information has been gathered together, and a list of that
14 material has been put together. Does that sum it up?
15 A. Yes, yes. And it is correct.
16 Q. Okay. That was the next thing I was going to ask you. You are
17 referring to that list now, do you believe that list to be correct and
18 authentic in the information that is contained therein?
19 A. 99 percent.
20 Q. All right. So 99 percent, are you able to point to anything in
21 it that isn't correct or can you just tell us why you say 99 rather than
23 A. Well, I can tell you that it's 2.000 percent accurate, but I'm
24 trying to say that it is authentic, correct.
25 Q. All right.
1 MR. COLE: Your Honour, on that basis he has testified here I
2 would ask that the list of names be entered into evidence and be given an
3 exhibit number, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Did he also participate in gathering this
6 MR. COLE: Yes.
7 Q. Witness, did you contribute to the information that is contained
8 in the list yourself?
9 A. Well, yes, yes, my mother disappeared as well as two of my
10 cousins, uncles, friends, neighbours. We all got together from each of
11 the households, if any family member survived, then they provided me with
12 years of birth and names. I could not have known each and every child if
13 I didn't live with that child.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll admit it.
15 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, it should be marked for identification
16 since we don't have a copy in the official language of the Tribunal in
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is it in B/C/S in its entirely.
19 MR. IVETIC: It's in B/C/S, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, then, yes, marked for identification.
21 MR. COLE: I was going to suggest, Your Honour, that it can be
22 admitted now. The witness can sign it with today's date and time. There
23 can be copies made thereafter. It can immediately then become an
24 exhibit. Probably no reason to be marked for identification can be taken
25 from him at the conclusion of his testimony and copied, translated at
1 that time, sir.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ivetic.
3 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, the practice I've followed in the last
4 ten years of this Tribunal unless it's an official language it's marked
5 for identification until translation is provided and can be verified, and
6 the document can be -- know of -- right now the lead counsel for the
7 Defence doesn't even know this document and cannot read it so I don't
8 know what kind of submissions we can make on it.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll maintain the ruling that it's marked for
10 identification pending translation.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P333, marked for identification,
12 Your Honours.
13 MR. COLE: Yes.
14 Q. Witness, we were going through, I think, the list of in front of
15 you on the screen, P39, dealing with some of the names on the list, and
16 we are not going to do all of them. And I think you had given us the
17 name of two daughters of Mujesira who perished in the Pionirska fire?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. I'm now going to move down to item 14, the name at number 14, the
20 Ismeta. It shows Ismeta Kurspahic, daughter-in-law of Osman and Ajka
21 about 26 years old. Is that a correct reference of a person who perished
22 in the Pionirska fire?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And you were asked about this earlier, do you know --
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Besides the lady who died in the fire, do you know any other
2 Ismeta Kurspahics that are alive or were alive after the date of the
4 A. There is one, a cousin of mine in Bihac. She is a permanent
5 resident there. She only comes to visit once or twice a year.
6 Q. And you know of no others?
7 A. There are no others in the village of Koritnik, in my village.
8 Q. Right. Now, let's just make clear once and for all the situation
9 in relation to Aisa Kurspahic. If you'll have a look at the list, you'll
10 see there are two Aisa Kurspahics, one at number 22 and one at number 24.
11 You see those? Yes, you've got too many documents in front of you. It
12 was a list of 51 names that were used during the --
13 A. 24, Aisa, yes.
14 Q. 22, Aisa. Now, you subsequently made a correction to this
15 list --
16 A. The one under 22, that one survived. The Aisa under 24 was
17 killed. The one under 22 is the person who survived who at the time was
18 about 22 years old.
19 Q. Thank you. So the lady listed at number 24 perished in the
20 Pionirska fire?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Now, please have a look -- I'm trying to do this as expeditiously
23 as we can, have a look at number 23, Ramiza Kurspahic, and then have a
24 look at number 41, the same name.
25 A. Ramiza under 23, she did not take part in the incident. She
1 survived. The other one is Becar Kurspahic's wife, and she perished in
2 Pionirska Street.
3 Q. So the lady at number 41 perished in the fire?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And you corrected the references to the two other ladies at 22
6 and 23, you corrected that and indicated that they should not have been
7 on the list previously, didn't you?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Now, let's go through to number 37 [sic] on the list,
10 Hasiba Kurspahic.
11 A. It is my father. He was involved and survived. After the blast,
12 a door opened and he fell out. He survived. This is my father.
13 Q. Yes. And that he was incorrectly listed in this list in the
14 Vasiljevic trial, and you subsequently corrected that entry to show that
15 he should no longer have been amongst the list of the dead, didn't you?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Now, if we go down to number 39, Hana Kurspahic, about 30 years
18 old, daughter of Hata and Hasib, does that appear to you to be reference
19 to your sister Hasiba, whose real name is Hasiba, who actually perished
20 in the Pionirska fire?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Because you told us before that she was sometimes known as Hana,
23 didn't you?
24 A. Most of the people in the village knew her as Hana; however in
25 the register, her name is listed as Hasiba.
1 Q. Okay. Moving on, at number 44, we see Kada Sehic, about 39 years
2 old. Do you believe that that refers to your sister, maiden name
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. She perished in the Pionirska fire, didn't she?
6 A. Yes, she did as well as her son Faruk.
7 Q. And Faruk is listed under her name at number 45?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And we'll just for completeness, numbers 48, 49 and 50, people
10 with the name Jasarevic, you've been asked a number of times about these
11 people -- just a moment, please, Mr. Kurspahic.
12 Can we just -- can you go through them -- let's deal with 48
13 first. Do you say that Mujo Jasarevic perished in the fire, or should it
14 be Mujo Halilovic?
15 A. Yes, Mujo perished in the fire. As well as Meho and Meho's wife,
16 Tima, their last name was Halilovic. I told the Defence there was two
17 Mujos. There was a Halilovic and Jasarevic, Mujo; one perished, the
18 little or small Mujo. There was a separate hamlet of Halilovici there.
19 Q. All right. Now, number 50 is Hajra, are you saying it was
20 Hajra Halilovic who perished in the fire?
21 A. Yes, Meho's wife.
22 Q. Now, have you heard the name Mujo Jasarevic before?
23 A. I knew the man. I knew both Mujo's, Jasarevic and Halilovic, I
24 knew both of them.
25 Q. Is the surname Jasarevic a very common name?
1 A. In one parts of the Sase village, you have the Jasarevics and in
2 the other part of the hamlet, you have the Halilovics. They are both the
3 Jasarevic and the Halilovic families there.
4 Q. I'm asking you is Jasarevic a very common name for a person to
6 A. Yes, it is.
7 Q. For example, do you know how many Mujo Jasarevics do you know?
8 A. I know one person by the last name of Jasarevic, and another
9 under the name of Halilovic.
10 Q. Is it your belief that nobody by the name of Jasarevic perished
11 in the Pionirska fire?
12 A. No, those were the Halilovics. Meho and Mujo were next door
13 neighbours. I know that Meho's last name was Halilovic, as well as that
14 of his wife, Hajra. And as I've said, I wasn't sure whether Mujo
15 Halilovic or Jasarevic was killed. His wife's name was Mujesira and you
16 can check that if need be.
17 Q. All right. I want you just to put aside the three Jasarevics
18 we've just been talking about there. Wasn't there, in fact, one other
19 Jasarevic who in fact did perish in the Pionirska fire in June 1992?
20 A. No, all of these were Halilovics: Meho, and Tima. Their last
21 name certainly is Halilovic. I am not sure of Mujo, whether he was a
22 Halilovic or a Jasarevic. I don't know whether any other Jasarevics were
24 Q. All right. Well, what about Tima Jasarevic, is that person one
25 of the victims of the fire?
1 A. This needs to be revised. Their last name is Halilovic. It
2 should be done here before the Bench. Halilovic, I told that to the
3 Defence as well. Meho and Hajra Halilovic.
4 Q. Okay. Let's just see if we can deal with that now. How many
5 people then by the name of Halilovic do you say -- just a moment. How
6 many people by the surname of Halilovic do you say perished in the
7 Pionirska fire?
8 A. Meho and Hajra, their last name was Halilovic. I'm not certain
9 about Mujo, he was either a Jasarevic or a Halilovic, and he perished.
10 Q. All right. Well, what I'll do now is just go through some of the
11 names in the Annex A, which is the list of names attached to the
12 indictment. I'm not sure, have you been given that list of names?
13 A. I only have the old original version with 70 plus names, and then
14 there's the list of 51 names, I have that one as well.
15 Q. What was the list that was given to you by counsel earlier, I
16 just want to be clear what that is that you have? Could I have a look at
17 that, please.
18 A. I don't know. I have never seen that before, as I said at the
19 outset. I've never seen this list before.
20 MR. COLE: Thank you.
21 Q. Yes, Witness, the document that I've just had a look at that you
22 were given before, you say you've never seen it before, I'm not sure if
23 it was explained to you precisely what it was, but that is a copy of the
24 indictment in this trial alleging serious crimes against Milan Lukic and
25 Sredoje Lukic. And at the back of that indictment, it has two annexes:
1 Annex A which is a list of those killed in the burning house at Pionirska
2 Street, there are 70 names there; and Annex B, a list of 16 known persons
3 that were among those killed in the burning house at Bikavac nearly two
4 weeks later.
5 So that was the document you were looking at before. I see
6 counsel has taken it back now, but I'm going to go through just some of
7 the names of those that are noted in Annex A to the indictment as being
8 killed in that burning house in Pionirska. Do you understand that?
9 A. Yes.
10 MR. COLE: Could I just ask Your Honours, are we taking a break
11 at 1:15.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, we are going to go to 1.45. It's a
14 MR. COLE: Thank you, sir. Very well.
15 Q. Mr. Kurspahic, the first one I'm going to ask you about is number
16 4, you don't have the list in front of you before, but number 4 says
17 Jasmina Delija, approximately 24 years old. And the age -- just a
18 moment. Wait a moment -- the age that I'm going to give you now is the
19 age at the time that these -- it is said these persons were killed in
20 Pionirska Street. So that's back in 1992. Do you understand that?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. All right. With Jasmina Delija, approximately 24 years old in
23 1992, do you believe that a person by that name was burned to death in
24 the Pionirska house?
25 A. Yes, she burnt to death, yes, that's true.
1 Q. And what was her maiden name?
2 A. Kurspahic. She is a relative of mine. Close relative.
3 Q. All right. Now, listed in the Annex A four Jasarevics, I think
4 in terms of completeness I've got to put this to you once again. We have
5 listed as, perhaps I can just do it by way of leading. We have at
6 number 6, Tima Jasarevic, age unknown - and if you can do it in a yes or
7 no fashion - do you believe that a person by the name of Tima Jasarevic
8 perished in the Pionirska fire?
9 A. Tima Jasarevic, it's Tima Velic and her mother, they were
10 mentioned as having been in that house at the critical time, their
11 surname is Velic, Ima and Nurka, mother and daughter. And at that
12 critical time, they were in the vicinity of the house.
13 Q. I am he not going to ask you about those persons, but is
14 Tima Jasarevic a person who you say should, in fact, be Tima Halilovic?
15 A. Yes, Halilovic. I've already said that, that it's Halilovic.
16 Q. Okay. Now, the next one we have is Hajra, H-a-j-r-a, Jasarevic,
17 approximately 35 years old, do you believe that person should be
18 Hajra Halilovic?
19 A. Hajra Halilovic, Meho Halilovic's wife.
20 Q. So that is you are saying yes, that should be Hajra?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Okay. Number 8 is Meho Jasarevic, approximately 42 years old.
23 Do you say that name should be Meho Halilovic?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And the next one Mujo Jasarevic, approximately 47 years old, do
1 you say that person should be, in fact, Mujo Halilovic?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. All right. The Aisa Kurspahic at number 10, A-i-s-a,
4 approximately 49 years old, that person you've told us previously was
5 burned to death at Pionirska?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. If we go down, you don't have the list, but it's number 15,
8 listen to this carefully, the first name is Aner, A-n-e-r, Kurspahic,
9 approximately 6 years old. Just hold it for a moment, please. So that
10 person is listed there. Do you believe that a person called
11 Aner Kurspahic, approximately 6 years old, was burned to death in the
12 Pionirska fire or not?
13 A. Aida is the right name. Her real name is Aida. A-i-d-a.
14 Q. I think something might have gone wrong with it --
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, you are asking about the 6-year-old boy,
17 MR. COLE: And I spelled it.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: He is asking about the 6-year-old boy Aner not
19 Aida, not the lady whose name is Aida. You can help --
20 MR. IVETIC: I can help, Your Honours, I believe the witness is
21 talking about number 11 because the question before Mr. Cole was number
22 10 on the list, so I think the witness is referring to number 11 on the
23 list which is the name he mentioned so --
24 THE INTERPRETER: Would the counsel please slow down.
25 MR. COLE:
1 Q. Yes, witness, we'll just clarify this, I've moved down to number
2 15, just a moment, I've moved down to number 15 we are not going to go
3 through all of the names, and I'm asking you about Aner, A-n-e-r,
4 Kurspahic at number 15 who it says is approximately six years old.
5 A. It says here on my list under number 15, Aida Kurspahic, maybe
6 that's a mistake in the order.
7 Q. I'm sorry, witness, you have before you the previous exhibit, I
8 think probably the best idea is for that to be removed from the screen
9 now. I'll just repeat it. What I'm asking you about now is a list that
10 you don't have in front of you which is an annex to the indictment that
11 contains a list of 70 names. It was the list that counsel had provided
12 to you before but which he has now taken back, so you don't have it
13 before you. So I'm just going to give the number on the list, what the
14 name is, and the age and ask you about the person.
15 So I'm asking you now about number 15 Aner Kurspahic,
16 approximately six years old. Do you believe that that person -- a person
17 of that name and that approximate age was burned to death in the
18 Pionirska fire in 1992?
19 A. Yes. It's Hidajet's son.
20 Q. About what age was the Aner Kurspahic, do you believe, the one
21 that perished in the fire?
22 A. Five or six, I'm not quite sure. It says Almir, and there were
23 three children and they all perished together, the brother, sister, and
24 this one.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ivetic.
1 MR. IVETIC: I'd ask Mr. Cole where is that contained in the
2 clarification and the proofing session that was provided to us or
3 otherwise notice to the Defence. This is new evidence. I've never heard
4 it before.
5 MR. COLE: I don't know what counsel was saying it was so fast.
6 MR. IVETIC: Let me slow down then. I'd ask Mr. Cole where is
7 this contained in the proofing statement, the clarifications by this
8 witness that were provided by the Prosecution after Mr. Cole's telephone
9 discussion with him as notice for this new evidence that is being led.
10 MR. COLE: Well, Your Honour.
11 MR. IVETIC: I would object to new evidence being led at this
12 late stage.
13 MR. COLE: Your Honour, I'm conducting a cross-examination here.
14 I'm not here to answer.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's a Chamber witness, Mr. Ivetic.
16 MR. COLE: Yes.
17 MR. IVETIC: But, Your Honours, Mr. Cole gave us a clarification
18 identifying Aner Kurspahic and giving us totally different information.
19 Now we are finding out for the first time that he intends to prove it's
20 different person. If the Prosecution is going to reply upon it in their
21 case, Your Honour, it's new evidence, needs to be noticed. I have a
22 right to challenge it and confront it.
23 MR. COLE: Your Honour, you'll recall that the witness indicated
24 he hasn't been spoken to anyone since that phone call in March. We might
25 find out when I ask him in a moment where this information has come from
1 and why it's new. But now he is here, now he is a court witness. We are
2 entitled to hear anything he has to say about anyone who is victim or
3 alleged to be a victim. I'd like to find out more about it.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, go ahead.
5 MR. COLE:
6 Q. Now, Mr. Kurspahic, you've heard the exchange here, you've just
7 given some evidence about an Aner Kurspahic, approximately six years old.
8 Have you ever -- I think you've given the name of the -- have you given
9 the name of the parent? What was the name of the parent of this
10 Aner Kurspahic?
11 A. Hidajet. There's Aner Kurspahic, Omer's son, he did not perish.
12 He is in Austria. He was taken away. He and his father and his uncle
13 took them out of a car and were disposed of by Milan Lukic.
14 Q. So you are telling the Court now about this Aner Kurspahic whose
15 son of Halida who perished in the Pionirska fire. Do you recall having
16 mentioned that to anyone on a previous occasion, or its the first time
17 that you are telling that information to the Court?
18 A. Well, I talked about this on the basis of the list. I revised
19 the list for all the people who hadn't perished, and we did that earlier
20 on. We crossed out the names of people who were not there. Now, what
21 the critical people are, well, I'd like to help you to clarify whether
22 they did perish or didn't. So tell me who you mean specifically, who you
23 want to know about specifically?
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Cole.
2 MR. COLE: Yes.
3 Q. Witness, we just need to clarify this situation with
4 Aner Kurspahic and how many of them there are and who their parents are.
5 Yes. So Mr. Kurspahic, can we just concentrate on Aner Kurspahic, the
6 one who is in the indictment at number 15, the boy about six, and the
7 mother is Halida, are you able to give us any further details about this
8 Aner Kurspahic before I ask you about another one?
9 A. There was Hidajet. Omer's boy was ten or 12 and this other one
10 was five or six years old, and that was Hidajet's son.
11 Q. Aner Kurspahic, daughter of Halida, what was the father's name,
12 the father of the boy who died in the fire?
13 A. Hidajet.
14 Q. Hidajet was the father, was it Halida the mother?
15 A. Ismeta, the mother's name was Ismeta. She is Hidajet's wife.
16 MR. IVETIC: This is not contained in the Ewa Tabeau's list of
17 possible persons, so this is completely new evidence that is now being
18 led out of thin air.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cole, can you clarify for me is the
20 examination to the effect that there are two persons with the name
21 Aner Kurspahic.
22 MR. COLE: I was just going to ask him about the other one
23 because it's certainly -- it's in the disclosed material from the phone
24 call on the 4th of March. I was trying to separate them and get his
25 explanation for that, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, go ahead.
2 MR. COLE:
3 Q. Now, Mr. Kurspahic, I'm just going to draw your attention to a
4 document which was produced as a result of the telephone call that you
5 had on the 4th of March, and I'm going to read out what this document
6 records was said between you and counsel on that occasion, if you just
7 listen carefully, please. This document says that during the phone call
8 you said that you believed that a person called Aner Kurspahic, son of
9 Latifa Kurspahic, is alive and in Austria.
10 Now, just hold it for a moment. First I'm going to ask you, did
11 you say that during the telephone call on the 1st of March, or do you
12 recall saying that? That's the first thing, there are other questions to
14 A. I don't remember. Possibly but I don't remember saying that. I
15 know for sure that Aner is Latifa's son and that he was killed with his
16 father and uncle Fikret. I'm here to explain.
17 Q. So you are aware of Aner Kurspahic who is the son of a Latifa
18 Kurspahic, and your evidence today is that that that Aner Kurspahic is no
19 longer alive?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And when do you believe that he lost his life?
22 A. Before what happened in Pionirska Street, they set off for
23 Belgrade. His mother, Latifa; his father, Hasan; his grandfather, Omer;
24 and uncle, Fikret, who was a military person. He came to take them to
25 Belgrade and from a private vehicle, Milan Lukic pursuant to Latifa's
1 statement --
2 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness kindly be asked to slow down
3 and tell us the story one by one, thank you.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, you were speak too fast. You are going
5 too fast. Now, I am going to ask you to repeat it, but Mr. Ivetic has
6 something to say.
7 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honours. This individual is now
8 testifying about something unrelated but which is interesting to me
9 because to my knowledge I see no statements of Latifa Kurspahic anywhere,
10 so I don't know where this witness's knowledge of Latifa Kurspahic comes
11 from, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, he can tell us. Witness, would you repeat
13 more slowly what you just said.
14 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness be asked to make pauses.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I talked to his grandfather, Hasan,
16 who survived and then died later, so Hasan's son, Fikret, came by from
17 Belgrade and he was an army officer. He came to take his father, his
18 mother, his brother, the family away; and when they left Visegrad, in a
19 passenger vehicle, privately owned, driven by Omer, there was his son
20 there, Aner, who was ten or 12 years old, and his brother; and in the bus
21 there was Hasan, Meva, their daughter-in-law, Latifa, and her small
22 daughter, and then Milan took Hasan out. He took all three of them out
23 of the car and another person from the bus, and I don't know what the
24 name of that person was.
25 MR. COLE: Yes. I note the time, could I just finish up on this
1 subject. It will only take a moment, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
3 MR. COLE:
4 Q. I'm just going to give you an opportunity to tell the Court or
5 give an explanation or whether you remember, you actually said this
6 comment during the telephone conversation with counsel on the 4th of
7 March. This is what is written and this is what was supplied to the
8 Defence, that you believed that Aner Kurspahic -- this is what is written
9 here, that you believed that Aner Kurspahic, son of Latifa Kurspahic, is
10 alive and in Austria. Now, just hold it there a moment. I'm going to
11 ask you a question. Do you believe that you said that, or that it's a
12 mistake, or how would you explain that that comment has been written down
13 following the conversation that you had with counsel?
14 A. I'm not sure that that is what I said. I really don't remember.
15 And if even if I did say that, then I withdraw it. I don't remember ever
16 having said that. I don't know, I'm not sure. Now, I couldn't say what
17 actually did not happen, that's not something I do, but I'm here to
18 explain things.
19 MR. COLE: Your Honour, is that an appropriate time or are we
20 going through 1.45, I've got it wrong.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: To 1.45.
22 MR. COLE: Yes, I'm sorry, you did indicate that, Your Honour.
23 Q. All right. I'm going to move on now to in this list of 70 names
24 that has been attached to the indictment, I think you've been given that
25 back now, have a look at number 25 on the list, that shows
1 Hana Kurspahic, approximately 30 years old. It's probably in English,
2 but it says 25, Hana Kurspahic, approximately 30 years old. That's what
3 is written here. You can see the name Hana, can you?
4 A. Yes, that's my sister. But there are two names. She also comes
5 under number 27, and Hasiba is her real name, so you should delete the
6 other number.
7 Q. Just a moment. There is a Hana Kurspahic approximately 30 years
8 old. How many Hana Kurspahics do you know?
9 A. Her nickname is Hana, but her real name is Hasiba. It's the same
10 person under number 25 and 27. 25 and 27 are the same person.
11 Q. Well, I'm just going to suggest to you, Mr. Kurspahic, that they
12 are two separate people. That a Hana, just a moment, that a
13 Hana Kurspahic and also a Hasiba Kurspahic both perished in the Pionirska
14 fire, one of them being your sister, and one of them being another woman.
15 Just would you think about that for a moment and tell us whether you
16 agree with that?
17 A. No, no, that's not true. The truth is that it's one and the same
18 person. There was just one person.
19 Q. So just to be clear then, your sister's name was Hasiba. She
20 perished in the fire; correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And on the list that you've produced and that you've brought with
23 you and which will now be an exhibit, is there also a separate person --
24 separate victim with the first name of Hana Kurspahic in addition to
1 A. No, no. Listen to me. There might be a mistake. I don't know
2 about my list, but the list I have in front of me were 70 names, that's a
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: His evidence is that Hana Kurspahic at number 25
5 and Hasiba Kurspahic at 27 are one and the same person.
6 MR. COLE: He has made that clear.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. And his sister.
8 MR. COLE: Yes, he believes that Hasiba Kurspahic and Hana, it's
9 the same person, his sister goes under the name of Hana.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
11 MR. COLE:
12 Q. All right.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: How much longer do you have, Mr. Cole?
14 MR. COLE: In fairness, I'm not sure, Your Honour; but I don't
15 know -- I'm certainly not going through all the names, maybe half an
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Continue, please.
18 MR. COLE: Yes.
19 Q. The next name I'm going to ask you about is number 28, and that
20 reads Hasnija, H-a-s-n-i-j-a, Kurspahic approximately 62 years old.
21 A. This is a mistake. Hasnija, no, there's Pasija, so it's the same
22 person. Pasija has a daughter and her name is Hasnija, but she didn't
23 perish in the fire. She wasn't there at all.
24 Q. Let's just do it precisely if we can. Concentrating on Hasnija
25 approximately 62 years old, was there a person of that name who perished
1 in the Pionirska fire?
2 A. No.
3 Q. And are you saying that name doesn't appear on the list that you
4 brought with you?
5 A. No, it's not on the list.
6 Q. And is it your evidence that Hasnija, that I have just referred
7 to at number 28, is the same person as the Pasana or Pasija in item 50?
8 A. Yes, they are mother and daughter. They are two different
9 people, mother and daughter.
10 Q. Who were mother and daughter?
11 A. Pasija is Hasnija's mother, and Hasnija wasn't there in Pionirska
12 Street in Visegrad when the house was set on fire, but Pasija was.
13 Q. Did you say Pasana Kurspahic was the mother of Hasnija Kurspahic?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Well, if you see the age for Pasana Kurspahic, that's age 56, and
16 the age of Hasnija Kurspahic is approximately 62 years old?
17 A. No, Hasnija might be about 30 roughly. This is not correct here.
18 Somebody wrote that but it's not correct. I don't know. Hasnija might
19 have been 30, whereas Pasnija is her mother, about 60. 58, 60.
20 Q. Was this 30-year-old Hasnija killed in the fire?
21 A. No.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Was her mother killed in the fire?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: And she was about 60, you say?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 58, 60. An elderly woman. She has
1 children older than Hasnija too.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: And her name was?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Pasija.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cole, this is -- and Mr. Groome, this is
5 getting a little confusing. What I'm going to do is at the end of the
6 examination, I'm going to ask each party to make submissions as to the
7 names that should be taken off the list as a result of the evidence that
8 we have heard.
9 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, it occurs to me that, and I apologise
10 that there is this confusion --
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Don't give any evidence.
12 MR. GROOME: No. I would like an opportunity to just -- after
13 Mr. Kurspahic finishes his testimony to sit down with him and go through
14 this list, who put it together. It seems to be, from what I can gather
15 here, if it was done with the different family members --
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: He is giving evidence. He in the middle --
18 MR. GROOME: No, I am saying when he has concluded his evidence.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Oh, when he has concluded.
20 MR. GROOME: Before he returns, I'm going to ask for an
21 opportunity just to sit down with him and go through this other list that
22 it seems has been compiled with the assistance of all the family members
23 who really are the people in the best position. We have tried to provide
24 the Chamber with data sources and recollections of different people. It
25 seems that Mr. Kurspahic has invested quite a bit of time and gathered
1 the help that he needed to come up with a rather reliable list, so I am
2 going to ask to be able to explore that with him later on.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm having another idea, it's something
4 equivalent to yours.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome, what are you going to do with the
7 information that you will gather when you have spoken with the witness
8 after he has completed his evidence?
9 MR. GROOME: I was actually going to ask Mr. Cole to sit down
10 with an investigator and really get down to the bottom of this once and
11 for all. I would ask that we do that tonight, disclose it to Mr. Ivetic,
12 and if Mr. Ivetic wants to be present, I would have no objection to that.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
14 MR. GROOME: And then if necessary, to have Mr. Kurspahic -- if
15 it was necessary for him to spend a few minutes just describing any of
16 the source of the material, that he could do that tomorrow morning and
17 perhaps this list that he has worked on would be considered the
18 authoritative list.
19 I think, Your Honours, it would still also be important, though,
20 to verify it against what we do know from data sources, so I think
21 prudence would require just to check it against what information we know
22 from the census and the other data sources.
23 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: [Microphone not activated]
24 MR. IVETIC: 17 years ago. Microphone. Microphone, Your Honour.
25 MR. GROOME: I agree, Your Honour, it should have been done.
1 MR. IVETIC: And now it's --
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Why don't we just do it in court and take the
3 witness through the list one by one?
4 MR. GROOME: I have no objection to that, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Because he apparently has the information. We
6 have 70 names and we could ask him to comment on each name.
7 Mr. Ivetic.
8 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, that's, I believe, what we did with CW1
9 to a certain extent so I can't object to it being done. We will make
10 submissions based upon that because there are certain other elements as
11 to reliability, credibility, et cetera, but I have no problem doing that
12 if its' --
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: I see Mr. Sredoje Lukic has had a toilet break,
14 so we are going to adjourn now and we'll resume at 2.15. Please consider
15 the proposal that I've made, Mr. Cole and Mr. Ivetic.
16 --- Recess taken at 1.33 p.m.
17 --- On resuming at 2.16 p.m.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: In the break, the Chamber considered the matter,
19 and in the result we'll just have Mr. Cole conclude his examination.
20 MR. COLE: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour. What I would indicate
21 is that I think there's been a problem, a little bit of confusion, so I
22 would like to go through each name in the Annex A with the witness.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: You're going to do the task that I said I would
24 undertake. All right. Well, let's proceed very quickly, then, if that's
25 what you're going to do.
1 MR. IVETIC: If I could just briefly, for the record, Your
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
4 MR. IVETIC: Mr. Cole, and of course Your Honours, can put to the
5 witness anything they want in terms of the manner of questioning.
6 However, we would want to reaffirm the statements that Mr. Alarid made
7 during the testimony or after the testimony of CW1 as to what effect that
8 is, and that we cannot just merely treat this as a manner of curing the
9 Prosecution's case and whether they've met the burden of proof at this
10 late stage of the game by simply taking persons incorrectly on the list,
11 taking them off.
12 The effect of that is much more widespread and goes toward the
13 credibility and the truthfulness of the entire Prosecution case on this
14 count and the witnesses that have come during the Prosecution case to
15 testify, and I would just, again, reiterate that all the statements that
16 Mr. Alarid made, I can read through them but I don't think it's
17 necessary, they're in the transcript during CW1, continue to apply and
18 continue to be the Defence's position and objection to merely curing the
19 Prosecution's indictment at this stage, given the testimony that has been
20 there because obviously I would reopen Pandora's box and the case would
21 have to be recalled and it would violate that double jeopardy and we
22 would put to witnesses of the Prosecution different questions if we had a
23 different list to work with. The indictment is the instrument by which
24 the accused is put on notice --
25 THE INTERPRETER: Counsel, slow down, please, for the
1 interpreters. Please slow down.
2 MR. IVETIC. ... Respond to that indictment. This is not the
3 time and place to be making any new indictments with any new witnesses.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Ivetic. We note the submissions
5 that you have made.
6 Yes, Mr. Cole. Now let us move quickly.
7 MR. COLE: Yes.
8 Q. Mr. Kurspahic, you have brought along today a list which contains
9 a list of those persons whom you believe were killed in the Pionirska
10 fire in Visegrad in 1992; correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. That list is the result of input from yourself and relatives of
13 the deceased victims; correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Could I just ask you briefly what resources you consulted other
16 than relatives in compiling the list. I just want to go through, if you
17 could say yes or no to these resources.
18 Did you consult the International Committee of the Red Cross,
19 their resources?
20 A. They have everything about these missing people. They are on
21 record as missing, but nothing has been lately done. We in the family
22 compiled the list because of those children whose ages we were not
23 certain about.
24 Q. Mr. Kurspahic, could you just please concentrate on the question
25 so we can move through this promptly. I want to ask you about some
1 resources, whether you consulted them in arriving at your list. Did you
2 consult the resources of the International Committee of the Red Cross,
3 their resources; yes or no?
4 A. No.
5 Q. This is not a criticism, sir. Did you consult any of the
6 censuses from 1991 or onwards? Once again, it's not a criticism. Did
7 you consult any census records in compiling the list?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Which ones?
10 A. The 1991 census. I have that census, which is authentic,
11 reliable, and you can get that census too. It's available to the
13 Q. Did you consult voters' records?
14 A. I have the complete material from the municipality of Visegrad,
15 all the lists of the population and the census.
16 Q. Did you consult the voters' records?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Did you consult the resources of the International Committee For
19 Missing Persons?
20 A. No.
21 Q. All right. Now, how many people in total, Mr. Kurspahic, do you
22 believe lost their lives in the Pionirska fire in June 1992? The total
23 number is what?
24 A. There's nothing to think about; exactly 53 people were killed in
25 the -- in the torching of that house. I made the complete list.
1 Q. So what's the total number?
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: He said 53.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
4 MR. COLE:
5 Q. Does the list you brought with you have 53 names or some other
7 A. 53. There's no other number. It's the one and only list.
8 Q. All right. Now, I'm going to go through the names in the
9 indictment Annex A very briefly and quickly, and if you need to consult
10 your list, please do so. And if you could just tell us whether you
11 believe each person as I read the name to you perished in the Pionirska
12 fire or not. Do you understand that?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Before answering, please feel free to check the list that you
15 brought with you. Do you understand?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Number 1 -- and do you have a copy of the list before you where
18 it says "Annex A" and then 70 names?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. That's the list I'm going to go through. You consult your list
21 if you need to. Number 1: Mula Ajanovic, approximately 75 years old.
22 Did she perish in the Pionirska fire?
23 A. Yes. Yes.
24 Q. Number 2, Adis Delija, approximately 2 years old. Did that child
25 perish in the Pionirska fire?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Number 3, Ajnija Delija, approximately 53 years old. And please
3 forgive me if I'm not aware if it's masculine or feminine. Did that
4 person perish in the Pionirska fire?
5 A. Yes, it's a female, Ajnija.
6 Q. And if the name needs to be corrected, the spelling needs to be
7 corrected, can you indicate that please. The next one, you've testified
8 previously, number 4, Jasmina Delija, approximately 24 years old. That
9 person -- that woman did perish in the Pionirska fire.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Number 5, it doesn't give a family name, just a first name:
12 Hasena, age unknown. Are you able to say whether someone of that name
13 perished in the Pionirska fire?
14 A. I can't say anything for certain. I don't know.
15 Q. The next one is Tima Jasarevic, age unknown, number 6. Do you
16 believe that person perished in the Pionirska fire?
17 A. Her last name is not Jasarevic. I told you before. You have the
18 new list. Let's work with that list, please. I have that list, and the
19 Defence has it too.
20 Q. All right. So what you say for number 6, the person who perished
21 was Tima Halilovic?
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: So we'll change Jasarevic to Halilovic?
23 MR. COLE: Sorry. Tima Jasarevic was Halilovic.
24 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, he actually testified it was Tima Velic
25 earlier, as well, so I don't know what we'd put on it. We need
1 clarification of that.
2 MR. COLE: I'm going to go through each --
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's Velic, Velic.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is it Tima Velic?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Tima Velic, right.
6 MR. COLE: So --
7 MR. IVETIC: Which, for the record, Your Honours, is number 69 on
8 the list.
9 MR. COLE: All right. We'll deal with it that way. What --
11 Q. We're going to go through in chronological order. We're at
12 number 6, and just to clarify that, was there a person called Tima
13 Jasarevic who perished in the Pionirska fire?
14 A. No.
15 Q. And was there a person called Tima Halilovic who perished in the
16 Pionirska fire? If you don't know, please say so.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: He's checking his notes.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.
19 MR. COLE:
20 Q. Number 7, Hajra Jasarevic, approximately 35 years old. Did a
21 person by that name perish in the Pionirska fire, or was it another
22 surname, Halilovic?
23 A. The last name is Halilovic, and she was killed; right.
24 Q. The next one is Meho Jasarevic, approximately 42 years old. Did
25 a person by that name perish in the Pionirska fire, or was the surname,
1 in fact, Halilovic?
2 A. Halilovic is the last name; right.
3 Q. And the next one, number 9. In relation to Meho Halilovic, did
4 that person perish in the Pionirska fire?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Next one, number 9, Mujo Jasarevic, approximately 47 years old.
7 Is that, in fact, Mujo Halilovic who perished in the --
8 A. Halilovic. Halilovic.
9 Q. Yes. So Mujo Halilovic, approximately 47, perished in the
10 Pionirska fire. Is that what you're saying?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Number 10, Aisa Kurspahic, approximately 47 years old. Did that
13 person perish in the Pionirska fire?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Number 11, Aida Kurspahic, approximately 12 years old. Did that
16 person perish in the Pionirska fire?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Number 12, Ajka, A-j-k-a, Kurspahic, approximately 62 years old.
19 Did that person perish in the Pionirska fire?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Number 13, Alija Kurspahic, approximately 55 years old. Did that
22 person perish in the Pionirska fire?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Number 14, Almir, A-l-m-i-r, Kurspahic, approximately 10 years
25 old. Did that person perish in the Pionirska fire?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And you've told us previously Aner Kurspahic, approximately 6
3 years old, did perish in the Pionirska fire. Do you confirm that?
4 A. It could be a mistake here. It could be Vahid instead of Almir.
5 We need to correct that. The right first name is Vahid, son of Idajit
6 [phoen], not Almir.
7 Q. So was it Aner? Do you believe there was an Aner Kurspahic who
8 perished in the Pionirska fire or not?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Number 16, Becar, B-e-c-a-r, Kurspahic, approximately 52 years
11 old. Do you believe that person perished in the Pionirska fire?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Number 17, Bisera Kurspahic, approximately 50 years old. Do you
14 know --
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. I have to ask the question. Do you believe that person perished
17 in the Pionirska fire. Your answer's yes?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Bula Kurspahic, did that person -- aged approximately 58 years.
20 Did that person perish in the Pionirska fire?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Number 19, Dzheva, D-z-h-e-v-a, Kurspahic, approximately 22 years
23 old. Did that person perish in the Pionirska fire?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Number 20, Enesa Kurspahic, approximately 2 years old, E-n-e-s-a.
1 Did that person perish in the Pionirska fie?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Number 21, surname Kurspahic, first name unknown, approximately 2
4 days old. Do you know the name of that person, that baby?
5 A. No. It's an infant who hadn't even got a name.
6 Q. And was there such an infant without a name that perished in the
7 Pionirska fire age about 2 days old?
8 A. Yes. It was exactly 2 days old. The woman gave birth two days
9 prior to the fire in the woods.
10 Q. What was the name of the mother of that baby? Was it Sadeta,
11 S-a-d-e --
12 A. Yes, Sadeta, daughter of Muhamed.
13 Q. Okay. Number 22, Hasa, H-a-s-a, Kurspahic, approximately 18
14 years old. Do you believe that person perished in the Pionirska fire?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Number 23, Hajrija Kurspahic, H-a-j-r-i-j-a, Kurspahic,
17 approximately 60 years old. Did that person perish in the Pionirska
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Number 24, Halida Kurspahic, H-a-l-i-d-a, approximately 10 years
21 old. Did that person perish in the Pionirska fire?
22 A. Yes.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cole, I think he explained already, but I
24 just want to have it in the evidence at this stage. Number 6, 7, 8, and
25 9, Jasarevic, which he says is Halilovic, what was the explanation,
1 Witness, as to why that was a mistake?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I did not write this
3 list with Jasarevic in it. The right, correct family name is Halilovic.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.
5 Yes, Mr. Cole.
6 MR. COLE: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.
7 Q. Now, I'm just going to ask you about items 25 and 27, and you
8 testified about these items before: 25, Hana Kurspahic, approximately 30
9 years old; and Hasiba Kurspahic, number 27, age unknown. Was it your
10 testimony before that those two entries are in relation to the same
11 person, your sister?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Now, your sister, how old was she at the time of the fire in
14 1992? What was her age then?
15 A. Born 1952, the 13th of May, 1952, so her age was exactly 30.
16 Q. And was it your testimony before that you are unaware of any
17 other person by the name of Hana Kurspahic or Hasiba Kurspahic?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Could you just give us your sister Hasiba's date of birth again.
20 A. I don't know. I think it's the 13th, but I'm no longer sure of
22 Q. What year? Was she your older or younger sister?
23 A. Younger.
24 Q. Okay.
25 A. I was born in 1950; she was born in 1952.
1 Q. So that means if she was born in 1952, that in 1992 she was 40.
2 Wouldn't that be correct?
3 A. A slip of the tongue. She was 40, right. 40.
4 Q. Okay. So you'll see that the entries we've got here, one is aged
5 approximately 30, the other age unknown; but your sister, you confirm,
6 was age 40 in 1992?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. All right. I'm going to ask you about -- and your sister
9 perished in the Pionirska fire, didn't she?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Number 26, Hasan Kurspahic, H-a-s-a-n, approximately 50 years
12 old, and I'll remind you that these are the ages in 1992. Did a person
13 by that name, do you believe, perished in the Pionirska fire?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Number 28, Hasnija, H-a-s-n-i-j-a, Kurspahic, approximately 62
16 years old. Did a person by that name perish, in your belief, in the
17 Pionirska fire?
18 A. No. Her mother is Pasnija, and she is not Hasnija. She was not
19 Hasnija. She was around 35, and she wasn't killed. She did not perish.
20 Q. Do you know a Hasnija Kurspahic, approximately 62 years old in
22 A. I don't know. I know the younger woman Hasnija who was the
23 daughter of Pasnija, 30ish or so.
24 Q. So have you ever met a Hasnija Kurspahic who was 62 in 1992 or
25 heard anything about a person of that age?
1 A. It's a mistake. It's Pasija, 62 years old, Pasija, the mother of
2 this Hasnija woman. I said that previously for the record.
3 Q. No, I just need to finally deal with this name here, so do you --
4 do you know now or have you ever known a Hasnija Kurspahic who was 62
5 years of age in 1992?
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Ivetic.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
8 MR. IVETIC: [Previous translation continues] ... in this
9 exchange alone, Your Honours. The witness has been very adamant, very
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr ...
12 MR. COLE: Yes, I'm finished there. Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Q. Mr. Kurspahic, number 29, Hata, H-a-t-a, Kurspahic, approximately
14 68 years old. Do you believe a person by that name perished in the
15 Pionirska fire?
16 A. Yes, that's my mother.
17 Q. Number 30, Ifeta Kurspahic, approximately 17 years old. Do you
18 believe a person by that name perished in the Pionirska fire?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Number 31, Igabala Kurspahic, approximately 58 years old. Do you
21 believe a person by that name perished in the Pionirska fire?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Number 32, Ismet Kurspahic, approximately 3 years old. Do you
24 believe a person by that name, a child by that name perished in the
25 Pionirska fire?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Number 33, Ismeta Kurspahic, approximately 26 years old. Do you
3 believe a person by that name perished in the Pionirska fire?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Number 34, Izeta Kurspahic, approximately 24 years old. Do you
6 believe a person by that name perished in the Pionirska fire?
7 A. I don't know. This name Izeta is unfamiliar to me. Maybe it's
8 under another name. Maybe that person is under another name. We'll see
9 as we go along the list.
10 Q. Very well. Number 35, Kada Kurspahic, approximately 40 years
11 old. Do you believe a person by this name perished in the Pionirska
13 A. The first name is right, but the last name is Sehic. It's only
14 the maiden name that's Kurspahic. That's my sister.
15 Q. So your sister is referred to later at number 67, isn't she,
16 under the name Kada Sehic.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. I just want to ask you specifically about the name Kada Kurspahic
19 at number 35, approximately 40 years old. Do you or have you - think
20 about it, please - have you ever known a Kada Kurspahic other than your
21 sister, her maiden name?
22 A. No.
23 Q. All right. So do you believe that a person called
24 Kada Kurspahic, of that surname perished in the Pionirska fire?
25 A. No.
1 Q. And number 36 is Latifa Kurspahic, approximately 23 years old.
2 Do you believe a person by that name perished in the Pionirska fire?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Number 37, Lejla, L-a-j-l-a [sic], Kurspahic, approximately 4
5 years old. Do you believe she perished in the Pionirska fire?
6 A. I don't know. Let me check on my list. Maybe it's Latifa's
7 daughter or Enis's daughter. Let me check, if you can give me a second.
8 I don't have the name. This is Latifa's daughter, most probably.
9 Q. All right. So is your answer that you don't believe this person
10 perished in the Pionirska fire?
11 A. She didn't.
12 Q. Number 38, Maida, M-a-i-d-a, Kurspahic, age is unknown. She was
13 a little girl. Do you believe a little girl by this name perished in the
14 Pionirska fire? And if you don't know at any stage, please say so.
15 A. I don't know.
16 Q. Number 39, Medina, M-e-d-i-n-a, Kurspahic, approximately 28 years
17 old. Do you believe a person by this name perished in the Pionirska
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Just going back briefly to Maida Kurspahic. If she was the -- if
21 she was the daughter of Dzehva, D-z-e-h-v-a, who's now deceased, would
22 that assist you with your answer to that entry?
23 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, that sounds like counsel testifying to
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Are you able to assist?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not sure. I don't know.
2 MR. COLE:
3 Q. Very well. Number 40, Medo Kurspahic, approximately 50 years
4 old. Do you believe that person perished in the Pionirska fire?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Number 41, Mejra, M-e-j-r-a, Kurspahic, approximately 47 years
7 old. Do you believe that person perished in the Pionirska fire?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Number 42, Meva, M-e-v-a, Kurspahic, approximately 45 years old.
10 Do you believe that person perished in the Pionirska fire?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Did you see a person called Meva Kurspahic at any time since the
13 Pionirska fire in 1992?
14 A. Yes. She died after the war in Sarajevo. She spent a period of
15 time in Austria as a refugee.
16 Q. And when did you last see her?
17 A. Roughly three years ago. I don't know. I was supposed to visit
18 her when she was taken ill, and she was with her daughter in Sarajevo,
19 and I was -- I attended the funeral. I think it was three years ago.
20 Q. What year would this Meva have been born?
21 A. Between 45 and 50 years of age.
22 Q. 45 or 50 years of age when? Do you mean at the time of the
23 Pionirska fire?
24 A. Yes, yes.
25 Q. And is this the same spelling of the person that you saw three
1 years ago or who died three years ago, M-e-v-a?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. With Meva, are you able to give us her parents' names?
4 A. I know that her father's name is Bego and that she was born in
5 the village of Zlijeb, Visegrad municipality. I don't know anything
6 else. It was a long time ago.
7 Q. Number 43, Mina Kurspahic, approximately 20 years old. Do you
8 believe that she perished in the Pionirska fire?
9 A. I don't know.
10 Q. Number 44, Mirela, M-i-r-e-l-a, approximately 3 years old in
11 1992. Do you believe that she perished in the Pionirska fire?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Number 45, Mujesira, M-u-j-e-s-i-r-a, Kurspahic, approximately 35
14 years old. Do you believe she perished in the Pionirska fire?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Number 46, Munevera, M-u-n-e-v-e-r-a, Kurspahic, approximately 20
17 years old. Do you believe that she perished in the Pionirska fire?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Number 47, Munira, M-u-n-i-r-a, Kurspahic, approximately 12 years
20 old. Do you believe she perished in the Pionirska fire?
21 A. Munira is 15. She could not have been 12. That's an error, and
22 she perished, yes.
23 Q. So you're saying Munira Kurspahic who perished in the fire was,
24 in fact, 15 years old.
25 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter said 50.
1 MR. IVETIC: [Previous translation continues] ... something, 52,
2 I believe he said, but I believe that's the next one on the list.
3 There's two Muniras. Counsel has to clarify.
4 MR. COLE: Yes. Thank you for that.
5 Q. Witness, there were two Muniras Kurspahics. One listed as 12 and
6 one listed as 55 on the list. I'm going to ask you again about number
7 47, Munira Kurspahic. What was the age of the Munira Kurspahic, the
8 young girl who perished in the Pionirska fire?
9 A. I don't know about Munira. I can see Munira appearing twice.
10 The one under 48 did perish.
11 Q. All right. Munira Kurspahic, number 48, approximately 55 years
12 old. You say she did perish in your belief in the Pionirska fire.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. All right. I need go back to 47 just to clarify that, please.
15 Number 47 is Munira Kurspahic, which says approximately 12 years old.
16 Was there a young Munira Kurspahic, a girl, who perished in the Pionirska
17 fire and --
18 A. I don't know.
19 Q. Does it assist if the -- all right.
20 All right. I'm moving on to number 49, Osman Kurspahic,
21 approximately 67 years old. Do you believe a person by that name
22 perished in the Pionirska fire?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Number 50, Kurspahic - and please forgive me if you've been asked
25 before, but I'm going through the list, so we have to ask again -
1 Kurspahic, it gives alternative first names, Pasana or Pasija,
2 approximately 56 years old. Was a person by that name or one of those
3 names, is it your belief that person perished in the Pionirska fire?
4 A. Yes, and her name is Pasija, not Pasana.
5 Q. Could you please spell that.
6 A. P-a-s-i-j-a, Pasija.
7 Q. Number 51 is Ramiza Kurspahic, approximately 57 years old. Do
8 you believe a person by that name perished in the Pionirska fire?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. 52, Sabiha, S-a-b-i-h-a, Kurspahic, approximately 14 years old.
11 Do you believe a person by that name perished in the Pionirska fire?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Number 53, Sadeta, S-a-d-e-t-a, Kurspahic, approximately 18 years
14 old. Do you believe a person by that name perished in the Pionirska
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Number 54, Safa, S-a-f-a, Kurspahic, approximately 50 years old.
18 Do you believe a person by this name perished in the Pionirska fire?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Number 55, Saha or Saha, S-a-h-a, Kurspahic, approximately 70
21 years old. Do you believe a person by this name perished in the
22 Pionirska fire?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Did you -- have you ever seen a Saha Kurspahic since the date of
25 the Pionirska fire?
1 A. Yes. She survived and lived in Sarajevo. She died in Sarajevo
2 and is buried at the city cemetery. I attended her funeral.
3 Q. Okay. Are you able to give us any of her relatives, the lady you
4 saw alive, her parents, brothers and sisters, or children.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Parents' names?
7 A. I don't know. She was native of Klasnik, the village next to
8 Lukic where Milan and Sredoje hail from. I don't know the name of her
9 parents. She was an elderly lady.
10 Q. Do you know the names of any of her siblings?
11 A. I do. One of her brothers is Sulejman, and the other, Imzo. The
12 third one lived in Visegrad, and he, too, died. I don't remember his
13 name. She had a son, Safet, and four daughters. She lived next-door to
14 my mother's house where I was born and lived.
15 Q. And other than the lady you're describing now, do you know any
16 other women, or have you ever known any other women with the first name
17 of Saha or Saha?
18 A. No.
19 Q. And finally on that, the spelling, is it S-a-h-a, as you see
20 before, or is it a capital S with the small accent on the top?
21 A. S with a diacritic, S-a-h-a, Saha.
22 Q. Yes, thank you. Number 56, Sajma, S-a-j-m-a, Kurspahic,
23 approximately 20 years old. Do you believe a person by this name
24 perished in the Pionirska fire?
25 A. Yes. But Sajmija, S-a-j-m-i-j-a, is her full name, whereas Sajma
1 is her nickname.
2 Q. Yes. Thank you. Now, if you need to correct any of the others
3 as we move to the end of the list in terms of spelling, please indicate
4 that. Number 57, Seila, S-e-i-l-a, Kurspahic, approximately 2 years old.
5 Do you believe this young child perished in the Pionirska fire?
6 A. Yes, but her name is Sejla, S with a diacritic, not an S, but a
7 Sh, Seila.
8 Q. Yes, thank you. Number 58, and this is possibly Seniha,
9 S-e-n-i-h-a, approximately 9 years old. Do you believe a person -- a
10 child by that name perished in the Pionirska fire?
11 A. Yes, but her name is Seniha.
12 Q. Okay. Number 59, Sumbula, S-u-m-b-u-l-a, Kurspahic,
13 approximately 62 years old. Did a person by this name in your belief
14 perish in the Pionirska fire?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Number 60, Vahid Kurspahic, V-a-h-i-d, approximately 8 years old.
17 Do you believe a person by this name perished in the Pionirska fire?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Number 61, Fazila Memisevic, F-a-z-i-l-a, Memisevic,
20 approximately 54 years old. Do you believe a person by this name
21 perished in the Pionirska fire?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Number 62, Redzo, R-e-d-z-o, Memisevic, approximately 57 years
24 old. Do you believe a person by this name perished in the Pionirska
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Number 63, Rabija Sadikovic, R-a-b-i-j-a, Sadikovic,
3 approximately 52 years old. Do you believe a person by this name
4 perished in the Pionirska fire?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, number 64 is Enver Sehic, approximately 13 years old. Do
7 you believe a person by this name perished in the Pionirska fire?
8 A. No. Lukic took his father and him together with others out of
9 the house. He did not perish in Pionirska. He was taken away and
10 disappeared without trace.
11 Q. And did that occur before the Pionirska fire incident or after
13 A. Before.
14 Q. Now, are you aware of any other persons by name of Enver Sehic,
15 other than your nephew?
16 A. I don't know. He's my sister's -- my sister Kada's son. I don't
17 know any other Emir [as interpreted].
18 Q. You don't know any other Enver, E-n-v-e-r, Sehics, other than
19 your nephew.
20 A. No, I don't.
21 Q. Now, number 65, Faruk Sehic, approximately 12 years old. Is that
22 your nephew?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And do you believe that he perished in the Pionirska fire?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Number 66, Haraga, H-a-r-a-g-a, Haraga Sehic, age unknown. First
2 I need to ask you, do you recognise the name Haraga as being male or
4 A. Haraga should be a male; Hajrija should be a female. But I don't
5 know this person. I don't know.
6 Q. So you don't know any Haraga Sehic -- you don't believe that
7 number 66, Haraga Sehic, perished in the Pionirska fire?
8 A. No.
9 Q. And was it your testimony that you don't know anyone by this name
10 as it's spelt here?
11 A. I knew a man by that name, Haraga Sehic from the village of
12 Mala Gostilje, who died before the war, and he's the only one by that
13 name I know.
14 Q. Number 67, Kada Sehic, approximately 39 years old. That is your
15 sister who perished in the Pionirska fire.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Number 68, Nurka Velic, N-u-r-k-a, approximately 70 years old.
18 Do you believe this person perished in the Pionirska fire?
19 A. Yes, but it's not an N, Nurka. It's an M, M-u-r-k-a. Murka.
20 Q. Thank you. Number 69, Tima Velic, T-i-m-a, approximately 35
21 years old. Do you believe a person by this name perished in the
22 Pionirska fire?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Number 70, Jasmina Vila, approximately 20 years old. Do you
25 believe a person by this name perished in the Pionirska fire?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Mr. Kurspahic, we've been through the 70 names on this list, one
3 by one. Now, in addition to those 70 names, what other names, what other
4 victims' names, and if you need to consult your list, please do so, what
5 other names of persons who have not been referred to on the list I've put
6 to you, what other names do you believe are victims of the Pionirska fire
7 in June of 1992?
8 MR. IVETIC: And, Your Honours, we would object, for unscheduled
9 victims now being brought in by the backdoor at the very eleventh hour of
10 these proceedings. This is a case without precedent, to have that kind
11 of attempt by the Prosecution.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cole, what do you have to say to that?
13 MR. COLE: In fairness to the witness, sir, he's brought along a
14 list today. He's testified to the Court that -- as to the source of the
15 information in his list. He's referred to that list with that
16 information as he -- we've gone through each of the victims in the
17 indictment; and it would be unfair to the witness who's compiled this
18 list if he's only able to give half his testimony effectively, the ones
19 that we've asked him about, when he has a rich source, it seems, of
20 information not only on the victims we have here but on some others.
21 Counsel's entitled to cross-examine him in due course, but in fairness, I
22 think, sir, he should -- Your Honour, should be able to relate those
23 other names to the Court now.
24 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I would add that the Court needs to be
25 concerned about the fairness of the proceedings and the fairness of my
1 client in the Rules of Procedure and Evidence and the statute of the
2 Tribunal and what they require for notice of elements that needs to be
3 proven by the Prosecution and the case he needs to -- or that he would
4 need to rebut and address.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Are you seeking to amend the indictment to
6 include any names that the witness might add?
7 MR. COLE: I just had my instruction that we're not intending to
8 do that, to add any further names. It's come up --
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have any other names to
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: This is a matter for the Chamber, Witness, not
12 for you.
13 MR. COLE: Well, in fact, sir, he just indicated he didn't have
14 any further names to --
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: I see. I didn't hear. Yes.
16 MR. COLE: He's obviously put that time to good use, Your Honour.
17 Q. So the answer to that last question just confirming that, there
18 are no names on your list that I haven't asked you about.
19 A. No.
20 MR. COLE: If I could just have a moment, Your Honour. Oh, yes,
21 there was one matter.
22 Q. Earlier in your testimony, Mr. Kurspahic, you had a -- maybe a
23 newspaper clipping or something else similar to that that you held up
24 when you were being asked questions by counsel.
25 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I seriously object to this. This is an
1 article based upon the video-tape that you did not permit me to introduce
2 into evidence, so I would strenuously object on that ground.
3 MR. COLE: Counsel knows more than I do, Your Honour. I haven't
4 seen it, and I don't know what it is. If it's a newspaper item, perhaps
5 I can just ask the witness what it is and we can take it from there.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, find out what it is.
7 MR. COLE:
8 Q. Please don't read from it, Mr. Kurspahic, but what is that copy
9 of a newspaper article that you brought with you?
10 A. The last time we went up to our village where our people were
11 driven out from, the lad whose wife and small infant were burned gave a
12 statement, and I'm sure that the gentlemen can read this quite well, and
13 I can give it to them. I think they hail from the region and know the
14 language, and none of what I brought along is a secret.
15 Q. Yes.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, proceed, Mr. Cole.
17 MR. COLE:
18 Q. Yes, I have one matter here. Do you recall during your earlier
19 testimony, Mr. Kurspahic, you were shown a document about
20 Mr. Redzo Memisevic requesting, I think, some property to be returned?
21 A. This document is not accurate, and I state this upon my full
22 responsibility. The man is not alive.
23 Q. So I think the gist of your response to counsel was that members
24 of a deceased person's family can make a request on the name of the
25 deceased person. Does that summarise your answer?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And that's your understanding. It was the family of
3 Redzo Memisevic making the request on his name.
4 A. His son. His son must have done it, Ibrahim, or actually his
5 real name is Asim. To tell you the truth, back where I come from we all
6 had two names or nicknames.
7 Q. And you confirm your earlier testimony that Redzo Memisevic
8 perished in the Pionirska fire.
9 A. Yes. We've already written that down.
10 Q. Yes.
11 MR. COLE: Yes, thank you, Your Honours. I have no further
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.
14 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. ... did you have something to say?
17 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honour. I would apply -- there was a
18 portion of the trip that was in closed session by error. That would be
19 page 41, line 7 through transcript page 53, line 7. I would ask that
20 that should be reclassified as public as there is no sensitive
21 information contained therein, and the right to a public trial is of
22 paramount concern, especially given the critical matters that were
23 discussed, the very important matters that were discussed in that portion
24 of today's transcript, and I was told that I need to make an application,
25 so I do so now while it's still fresh in everyone's mind.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: You want to have that in public session?
2 MR. IVETIC: That's correct, Your Honour. It was inadvertently
3 left in private session, and then I believe at some point in time while
4 Mr. Cole was doing his examination, it was realised and it was then in
6 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Okay. We'll have the Registrar confirm what you
8 have said, Mr. Ivetic, and give the ruling later.
9 Witness, that concludes your evidence. We thank you for coming
10 to the Tribunal to give it, and you may now leave.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't need that.
12 MR. COLE: Your Honour, can I just make sure that we have that --
13 the list that he brought with him, is it in the custody of the Court now?
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: The list -- just a minute, Witness. Do we have
15 the list -- please return to your seat. May we have the list that you
16 had prepared along with members of your family?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I have left a copy, and I can
18 leave this with you. I don't need it. The list is identical. I also
19 gave a copy to the Defence, and it's one and the same list that allowed
20 me to go through all the names.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much.
22 MR. IVETIC: For the record, we are shown one by the usher, and I
23 believe it was taken, so I do not have a copy. I don't know whether
24 that's -- I believe that it had already been tendered by Mr. Cole into --
25 as a potential exhibit, and he'd marked it for identification, so it
1 should also be in the pile, I would imagine.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we had marked it for identification, did
4 MR. COLE: [Microphone not activated]... it appears to be the
5 one -- that I have --
6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Prosecution.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. You can check. It's
8 the same.
9 MR. COLE: [Microphone not activated] ... previous from this
10 witness. I don't know what the other document was.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. I remember now. We did mark the list for
13 MR. COLE: Yes, very well.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Pending translation.
15 MR. COLE: [Overlapping speakers] ... if that is in the custody
16 of the Court, then we don't need a second list from him, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please return what you just got from the
18 witness. Please return it to him because we already have one marked for
20 MR. COLE: Your Honour, I just want to make sure that he has not
21 taken the wrong one away. Perhaps it's an abundance of caution. Does
22 Your Honour mind if I just see that document that he ...
23 Ah, it seems to be a copy as we have here. It's a copy. Okay.
24 Yes, thank you.
25 [The witness withdrew]
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: I have two decisions to give. On the 3rd of
2 November, 2008, the Trial Chamber determined that Dr. Wil Fagel's
3 testimony will only become relevant if and when certain documents here
4 referred to as the Defence documents are introduced by the Defence of
5 Milan Lukic in support of its Defence of alibi.
6 On the 25th of March, 2009, the Trial Chamber affirmed that
7 Dr. Fagel could testify as an alibi rebuttal witness and limited his
8 testimony to the Defence documents and a particular hand-drawn map, but
9 only to the extent that such documents are admitted into evidence.
10 Dr. Fagel is scheduled to testify on Wednesday. That's tomorrow. One of
11 the Defence documents was introduced by the Milan Lukic Defence on the
12 1st of September, 2008. And it is Exhibit 1D25.
13 MR. IVETIC: That's correct, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: On the 3rd of April, the Prosecution rebuttal
15 witness, Stoja Vujicic, was specifically asked questions concerning the
16 authenticity of the Defence documents. Upon the Prosecution's request,
17 four of the documents were admitted as P320, 321, 322, and 323. The
18 hand-drawn map has not been tendered into evidence by any party.
19 At the time the Prosecution tendered the four documents into
20 evidence, the Milan Lukic Defence noted for the record that in line with
21 the Trial Chamber's 3rd November, 2008, decision, these documents could
22 not be the basis for calling Dr. Fagel. The Prosecution did not comment
23 on the submissions.
24 All but one of the Defence documents have been introduced into
25 evidence by the Prosecution. In the Trial Chamber's opinion, therefore,
1 Dr. Fagel could only testify about Exhibit 1D25, the one document which
2 is properly tendered by the Defence of Milan Lukic in support of the
3 Defence of alibi.
4 The Chamber, therefore, holds that it is not in the interest of
5 judicial economy at this point in the proceedings to have Dr. Fagel
6 testify. However, the Prosecution may tender into evidence the relevant
7 part of Dr. Fagel's report, which concerns 1D25.
8 I proceed to the next decision:
9 On the 3rd of April, the Chamber granted the Prosecution's
10 request to remove VG-145 from its list of rebuttal witnesses. Today, the
11 Prosecution requested once more to add VG-145 as a rebuttal witness. The
12 Defence of Milan Lukic stated in response that Mr. Alarid had prepared to
13 cross-examine VG-145 and that he's out of the country.
14 In the Defence view, it would be improper for Mr. Ivetic to
15 examine VG-145 in light of the serious allegations the Prosecution
17 The Chamber notes that it has heard one of the three witnesses
18 whom the Prosecution sought to bring following the Chamber's oral
19 decision on 13th March, 2009; that is VG-146. In that decision, the
20 Chamber stated that the allegations made by the Prosecution in its motion
21 for contempt raised, and here I quote, "a question as to whether the
22 evidence that the Chamber has heard from MLD1 and might hear from VG-145
23 and others is reliable, and its impact if any on the Chamber's assessment
24 on the evidence in the proceedings as a whole."
25 For these reasons and considering the stage of the proceedings,
1 the evidence on the record which is potentially affected and that the
2 Prosecution has called VG-146, the Chamber is not persuaded that it is
3 necessary to hear VG-145, and the Prosecution's request is therefore
5 That's the end of the second decision.
6 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 [Private session]
7 [Open session]
8 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Next decision. On the 2nd of April, the Defence
10 of Milan Lukic filed a motion requesting that the deadline for the final
11 briefs be moved to Monday, the 11th of May, and that closing arguments be
12 held in the week of 18th of May. It also requested each party be
13 allotted 180 to 240 minutes for closing arguments.
14 The Prosecution responded on the 3rd of April, disputing the
15 allegations made by the Defence motion, and requests that the Chamber
16 order that all final trial briefs are to be submitted simultaneously.
17 The Prosecution states that it defers to the Chamber regarding matters of
19 The Chamber has considered the submissions and notes that several
20 of the Defence arguments have been raised in past extension requests,
21 several of which the Chamber has granted. But the Chamber is sensitive
22 to the Defence situation, particularly in light of the fact that
23 Mr. Alarid as lead counsel is absent.
24 The Chamber, therefore, orders that all parties are to file their
25 final briefs by Wednesday, 22nd April, 4.00 p.m., and closing arguments
1 are to be presented Monday, 27th April, at a time and in a courtroom to
2 be announced. But the Chamber does not see any reason at this point to
3 vary the time previously allotted to each party for presenting the final
5 The Chamber considers that this also disposes of the request of
6 the Defence in its third notice, filed on 2nd April, for a pause in the
7 proceedings to permit further verification of the indictment's list of
8 victims of the Pionirska Street incident.
9 End of that decision.
10 Next one:
11 On the 2nd of April, the Defence of Milan Lukic filed a motion
12 with several requests in relation to Witness CW1, whose testimony claims
13 calls into question the list of alleged victims of the Pionirska Street
14 incident. The Defence has presented evidence to the effect that three
15 persons listed as deceased in Annex A of the indictment are alive and by
16 which it seeks to cast doubt on the status of several other persons
17 listed in Annex A.
18 However, the fact that three persons may have been confirmed
19 alive does not warrant the automatic dismissal of counts in the
20 indictment. Any issues raised by such evidence are more properly
21 considered during the Chamber's deliberations. The Defence request in
22 this regard is therefore denied.
23 Also denied is the request that the trial be declared a mistrial.
24 Finally, the Defence requests that all of the Prosecution's
25 witnesses for the Pionirska Street incident be recalled to testify. Such
1 a course of action would, however, be contrary to the interests of
2 judicial economy at this advanced stage of the proceedings. The Chamber
3 has accommodated the Defence by permitting Huso Kurspahic to be called as
4 a Chamber witness in light of new information provided by him concerning
5 victims of the Pionirska Street incident.
6 Without any similar information from other Prosecution witnesses,
7 the Chamber cannot see the merit in the Defence request, which is
8 consequently denied.
9 The Chamber considers that this decision also disposes of the
10 remaining requests from the third notice as to named murder victims in
11 the indictment for whom evidence exists that they're alive, filed on the
12 2nd of April, 2009. End of decision.
13 Mr. Groome.
14 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I want to address the Chamber on its
15 first decision and just remind the Chamber of the procedural history, and
16 perhaps the Chamber would reconsider its decision.
17 With respect to Dr. Fagel's report, if the Chamber recalls, the
18 reason -- well, the documents were given to the Prosecution in support of
19 the alibi. It was because the Chamber had required us to submit or
20 present our rebuttal case in our case in chief that we were required to
21 disclose his findings with respect to those documents prior to them being
22 tendered. One was tendered prior to that report, and then the report was
23 disclosed, and then the other documents weren't tendered. I submit,
24 Your Honour, that since they were provided to the Prosecution by an
25 officer of the Court with the representation that they were going -- they
1 supported the alibi that the Prosecution shouldn't be denied the ability
2 to introduce evidence in light -- in view -- in the form of Dr. Fagel
3 showing that they are, in fact, forged documents.
4 They're also, Your Honour, the one document that was introduced
5 is inextricably linked to the other documents in that Dr. Fagel's opinion
6 is based on the fact that all of the signatures on the documents are
7 carbon copies or digital copies. They're exactly the same. He's unable
8 to say that if it's just talking about the single isolated document.
9 And then with respect to the map, Your Honour, except your
10 decision with respect to VG-145, the person that we intended to introduce
11 that, but discussing it with some colleagues last evening, I think
12 there's an alternative theory upon which the map could be introduced
13 through Dr. Fagel. Someone reminded me yesterday evening that the
14 conviction in the Charles Lindbergh case was based on an handwriting
15 expert saying that the ransom note was -- the hand was written by the
16 hand of the particular accused in that case.
17 I believe that we could establish the foundation of the map and
18 its attribution to Mr. Milan Lukic through Dr. Fagel. It does contain
19 information about what happened at the Drina that only a person, I
20 believe, who was present at the Drina could provide, so it would be my
21 submission, Your Honour, that if the Chamber credits Dr. Fagel's evidence
22 with respect to who drafted the map that the Chamber would be entitled to
23 admit the exhibit into evidence.
24 And Your Honour, just one other -- sorry, and then I'm finished
25 for the day. One other thing. If we're not permitted to call Dr. Fagel,
1 I would just ask if we get a later start for VG-94. She arrives late
2 this evening, and we'll not be able to speak with her this evening. If
3 we could just have an hour in the morning just to see what her state of
4 mind is like and prepare her for her testimony tomorrow. I'd appreciate
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: The first mart is essentially a request for
7 reconsideration, so I wanted to hear from Mr. Ivetic.
8 MR. IVETIC: Well, Your Honour, with respect to Dr. Fagel, the
9 parties have been operating based upon the Trial Chamber's ruling of -- I
10 forget if it was 8th or 4th November, stating that if the Defence
11 introduced documents, Mr. Fagel would be permitted to testify. We did
12 not introduce those documents. The Prosecution cannot introduce its own
13 controversy into the case then ask its own expert to opine on the
15 There's one very simple explanation for the document that
16 apparently counsel nor Dr. Fagel have considered, and we would be making
17 that in our submissions, since it appears he is not appearing, so we will
18 not be cross-examining on the topic. Your Honours have ruled, rightly
19 so, I think, with respect to the history of the case and the manner on
20 which those documents came in. We brought live witnesses who testified
21 as to the alibis, and Your Honours can consider those live witnesses and
22 make the appropriate findings, and I think that -- I would strongly
23 oppose reconsideration, and I think that the order should stand. It's in
24 line with the Court's prior decision and the course of practice of how
25 the parties operated was under that prior order. So if we're now
1 changing the prior order, then obviously persons might have done things a
2 little differently. Thank you.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: In the Chamber's view, it hasn't heard anything
5 from the Prosecutor that would warrant reconsideration in the interests
6 of justice, and we haven't heard any new material being presented, so the
7 Chamber will not grant the request for reconsideration.
8 We'll start at 10.00 tomorrow morning.
9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.40 p.m.,
10 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 8th day of
11 April, 2009, at 10.00 a.m.