Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2255

1 Thursday, 24 August 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.15 p.m.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Good afternoon, Witness.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: [Previous translation continues] ... continue.

9 Please be aware that the solemn declaration you gave at the beginning of

10 your evidence to tell the truth continues to apply to your evidence today.

11 And cross-examination will now continue.


13 [Witness answered through interpreter]

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic?

15 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic: [Continued]

17 Q. Now, sir, before we move on to another topic that we did not

18 discuss yesterday I would like to briefly touch upon some things that we

19 did discuss yesterday so that we can be clear in our minds before we

20 proceed today.

21 First of all, the Judge has just reminded you of the solemn

22 declaration that you took yesterday that is still in effect. Do you

23 understand the solemn declaration that you gave yesterday to tell the

24 truth in these proceedings?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2256

1 Q. Okay. And yesterday when you said you had not seen either of the

2 prosecutors prior to giving your testimony and that you did not meet with

3 them to discuss your statement, that was not the entire truth; is that

4 correct?

5 A. It's not true that I met them.

6 Q. Well, sir, did you not hear yesterday when the Prosecutor's Office

7 in fact confirmed that they did meet with you prior to your testimony?

8 Are they not telling the truth?

9 A. I did not meet them.

10 Q. Is it still your testimony that you did not speak with them?

11 A. I only gave a statement and I signed my statement at the place

12 where I gave the statement, and it was a correct statement.

13 Q. And when was that, sir?

14 A. This was in 2003.

15 Q. Now, sir, in fact, I submit that you met with the prosecutors, as

16 they stipulated yesterday, that you met with them on August the 19th,

17 2006, and I submit that, when you met with them, you told them that this

18 Rambo that you described, that his uniform was not the regular police

19 uniform. Isn't that the truth, sir?

20 A. He had the uniform that I described yesterday, with a cap, with a

21 bill. He had an emblem on his cap. On the right arm there was this

22 inscription, policija. He had a badge and the uniform.

23 Q. Now, yesterday, during questions put forth to you by the

24 Trial Chamber, by Judge Bonomy, you said that the police did not have blue

25 uniforms, and that was not the truth either, is it?

Page 2257

1 A. No. That's true.

2 Q. Well, sir, I submit that the employees of the Ministry of the

3 Interior, the police, do have blue uniforms but due to your problem with

4 differentiating colours you have a hard time seeing the difference between

5 blue and green. Is this correct?

6 A. Well, I said what I knew and what I said I'm sure about it.

7 Q. And if I can touch upon yet again the -- the April 3rd, 1999,

8 incident, you had stated that although the police had not expelled you

9 from your home, that another group had done that, you said you saw police

10 on the street. Where were the police on the street? That is to say, how

11 far away were they from your home?

12 A. The police were 200 metres from my home, along the road there were

13 regular policemen, up to the railway station.

14 Q. And could you describe whether these persons you have described as

15 regular police, whether they had any badges, insignia, or other emblems on

16 their uniforms?

17 A. They had the same, the normal badges. On the right arm there was

18 the inscription "policija," and they had on their caps the emblem of

19 Serbia. I said the same uniform.

20 Q. Sir, yesterday you -- yesterday you testified that the regular

21 police of the Ministry of the Interior did not have insignia on their

22 hats. Are you not --

23 MS. MOELLER: Excuse me, could we have a page and line reference,

24 please?

25 MR. IVETIC: Absolutely. Transcript page 76, line 10. And I

Page 2258

1 will -- just so that the --

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I said the same thing

3 yesterday.


5 Q. At line 7 my question to you yesterday was, "You mentioned

6 head-gear. During your time spent in Pristina, what time of head-gear did

7 the normal police have?" Answer at line 9: "The normal police had caps

8 of the same colour as their clothes but they didn't have insignia on the

9 caps."

10 So which is the truth, sir? Did the police, the employees of the

11 Ministry of the Interior, did they have insignia or did they not have

12 insignia on their caps?

13 A. Well, I said the same yesterday. Maybe I forgot but on their caps

14 they had the insignia of Serbia. On the arm -- they had "policija"

15 written on their arms, and on their chest they had badges. They had belts

16 as well.

17 Q. Okay. Now I'd like to move on to another area.

18 In the statement that is being proffered as evidence in these

19 proceedings, the statement that you gave to the Office of the Prosecutor,

20 you state your belief that the man Rambo was one of the people that

21 assaulted your wife. Now, what I want to ask you is, is your belief that

22 Rambo was one of the attackers based upon your speculation due to prior

23 incidents and encounters that you had with Rambo?

24 A. Well, I did not encounter Rambo there. I just suspected that he

25 had been there because, according to my wife's words, they had different

Page 2259

1 uniforms.

2 Q. Does your wife know Rambo?

3 A. No. No, she doesn't.

4 Q. And is it your belief that Rambo had a personal vendetta against

5 you for some reason?

6 A. That's what I thought, but how true that is, I don't know.

7 Q. And isn't it a fact that the person who described the uniforms of

8 the attackers, the person who assaulted your wife, was in fact your

9 neighbour rather than your wife?

10 A. I did not understand the question. Could you repeat it, please?

11 Q. Is the person who described the uniforms of the attackers who

12 assaulted your wife, was that person your neighbour rather than your wife,

13 that told you about the uniforms?

14 A. Not the neighbour but my wife told me about the uniforms.

15 Q. Now I'm going to direct your attention to paragraph 29 of your

16 statement. Do you still have that statement in front of you, sir?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Before I ask my question I'm going to caution you on one thing.

19 You are testifying here under protective measures so I will not use the

20 name of your neighbour so as to preserve your confidentiality. I would

21 also remind you, please, to not use her name, which is listed in this

22 paragraph. And my question to you, sir, would be, if you have time to

23 read this paragraph: Isn't it true that this paragraph of your statement

24 describes that your neighbour actually told you -- is the one that told

25 you that your wife had been assaulted by three police?

Page 2260

1 A. My wife told me about the case. It is true that the neighbour

2 called me, phoned me, and told me to come urgently. But my wife told me

3 about the uniforms and the persons.

4 Q. Now, sir, isn't it a fact that yesterday in your testimony, at

5 page 67, lines 9 through 12, when testifying about this incident and your

6 knowledge of it, you said, and I quote, "At that moment, she said" --

7 strike that.

8 Let me start from line 8 so it's clear. My question to you

9 yesterday -- or, excuse me, I believe it was the Prosecutor's question to

10 you yesterday: "Did your wife describe the men to you who raped her?"

11 Answer, at line 9: "At that moment, she said there were three

12 paramilitaries with -- wearing masks, black masks, camouflage uniforms,

13 and at that moment, in fact, she wasn't sure what the uniform -- what the

14 uniforms were like, just that they had masks on their faces."

15 Does that comport to the testimony that you just gave us today and

16 if not, which is the truth?

17 A. I told you yesterday and I will repeat it today, when I went home,

18 I saw my wife tearing at her face. I told -- I asked her, What has

19 happened? And she told me that she was raped by three policemen,

20 paramilitaries. I don't know how to describe them. And the truth is what

21 she told me. That's the truth.

22 Q. And, sir, you don't know how to describe them because you did not

23 see the uniforms; is that correct?

24 A. Of course I did not see the uniforms because I was not there.

25 Q. And your wife would be the best person to describe those uniforms;

Page 2261

1 is that also correct?

2 A. Of course. She is the one because it happened to her not to me.

3 Q. If we could leave that incident and that date by the side, I would

4 like to just ask a couple more questions relating to April the 3rd and the

5 events that you testified to following your expulsion from your home.

6 Now, is it -- am I correct that you set forth in your statement

7 that there were -- that there was -- that there were Serb civilians

8 expressing animosity towards yourself and others that were -- that were

9 leaving Pristina on that day?

10 A. Yes. In fact, when we left our home, this didn't happen, but on

11 the way, en route, it did.

12 Q. And would it be safe to say that as a result of the NATO bombings,

13 the attitude of civilians of Serb and other ethnicities in Pristina became

14 rather elevated or heightened, emotionally heightened, as a result of the

15 bombings? Would that be a fair appraisal of the environment in Pristina

16 as a result of the NATO bombings?

17 A. It's not true that the NATO bombing caused that, because if that

18 were true, all the Serbs and Albanians would have left but the fact is

19 that only the Albanians were expelled. The Serbs did not leave.

20 Q. Sir, I don't think you understood my question. Let me rephrase

21 it.

22 Did you notice Serb civilians becoming agitated in their

23 interactions towards Albanian, ethnic Albanian civilians, after the

24 commencement of NATO bombings?

25 A. I don't know about that.

Page 2262

1 Q. Okay. Well, on the day in question, April 3rd, 1999, at that

2 point in time, did you witness civilians who were antagonistic towards

3 yourself and others who were leaving Pristina?

4 A. Yes, yes.

5 Q. Okay. And did you see any organs of the state, any forces

6 attempting to keep these angry Serb civilians from getting close to you

7 and the other persons who were leaving Pristina?

8 A. No, I didn't.

9 Q. Okay.

10 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I think I'm done. If I could just have

11 a brief moment to look over my notes to confirm that, and then we can move

12 on.

13 Q. Sir, I thank you for your time. I'm finished with my questions

14 for you.

15 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.

17 Mr. O'Sullivan?

18 MR. O'SULLIVAN: I have no additional questions.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Fila?

20 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, no questions.

21 MR. SEPENUK: No questions, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bakrac?

23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] We have no questions either,

24 Your Honour, thank you.

25 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] As opposed to the rest, I don't have

Page 2263

1 any questions either.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, Ms. Moeller?

3 MS. MOELLER: I have one, hopefully one question for the witness,

4 Your Honour.

5 Re-examination by Ms. Moeller:

6 Q. Witness, could you look at me, please? Do you recall -- and I

7 take off the headphones so you can see me clearly. Do you recall that you

8 met with me and my colleague sitting here to my right on last Saturday and

9 we went over your statement with you?

10 A. Yes. Now that I can see your faces, yes. But I didn't know your

11 names.

12 Q. But you recall now that you indeed meet -- met with us on the 19th

13 of August? Do you?

14 A. Yes.

15 MS. MOELLER: That completes my questioning, Your Honours. Thank

16 you.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Ms. Moeller.

18 [Trial Chamber confers]

19 Questioned by the Court:

20 JUDGE BONOMY: I wonder if you can help me try to understand

21 something about your evidence. You were asked yesterday and also first

22 thing today about meeting two of the prosecutors in the case last

23 Saturday, and both yesterday and today you denied that such had -- such a

24 meeting had taken place. And we now learn that there was such a meeting.

25 Why did you deny that there was a meeting?

Page 2264

1 A. I didn't realise who they were, who the people in the Prosecution

2 were.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: That won't do. The question wasn't about

4 identified people. The question was whether you had met people from the

5 Prosecution. Now, why did you deny that there was ever such a meeting

6 last Saturday?

7 A. I can only say that I didn't realise that they were from the

8 Prosecution.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Again I repeat, that won't do. You have given an

10 undertaking to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

11 Whether or not you're familiar with that in your own experience doesn't

12 matter. The words are very simple: To tell the truth, the whole truth,

13 and nothing but the truth. Now, I want you to give me a reason that I

14 understand for denying that such a meeting took place. Can you do that?

15 A. I did not know that they were from the Prosecution. I don't know

16 what else to tell you.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Who did you think they were?

18 A. I wasn't really aware of who they were because people accompany

19 us, talk to us, bring us into offices for talks.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: I think I'm bound to make it clear to you, I just

21 do not accept -- I, for one, do not accept that you did not know who you

22 were talking to. We are assisted here by responsible people whose duty it

23 is to make it clear to you who they are before they speak to you.

24 Now, I'll give you one final opportunity to tell me why it is that

25 you denied that that meeting took place.

Page 2265

1 A. I did not deny it for any particular -- for any reason. I just

2 didn't know who they were. I've never been here before. I don't know who

3 the prosecutors are, who the Judges are, I don't know who is who. And I

4 don't know what "Prosecutor" means.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, witness, that completes your evidence to the

7 Tribunal. We are grateful to you for coming to give evidence. It is our

8 job, though, to ask any questions that we feel are necessary to clarify

9 the position and that's why additional questions have been asked in this

10 case. But that now completes your evidence and you're free to leave.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12 [The witness withdrew]

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Is Ms. Moeller to deal with the next witness or

14 Mr. Hannis?

15 MR. HANNIS: Ms. Moeller is, Your Honour, but before she does, may

16 I address what matter to you? It is my -- it is our standard practice to

17 usually go out and speak to a witness after they've testified, and that

18 was my intention, to do that now, but in light much your concerns and the

19 questions addressed to him at the end, I don't know if you would rather I

20 not speak with him for a while?

21 JUDGE BONOMY: No, I have no problem with you following your

22 normal practice.

23 MR. HANNIS: Okay. Thank you.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: So thank you, Mr. Hannis.

25 Yes, the next witness, Ms. Moeller?

Page 2266

1 MS. MOELLER: Your Honours, the next witness is Witness K-62, and

2 she's a live witness. Her testimony relates to paragraph 72(G), 77(A) and

3 (C).

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

5 [The witness entered court]

6 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm sorry to keep you waiting there but I didn't

7 want to speak over the noise of the blinds.

8 Could you please take the solemn declaration by reading aloud the

9 document which is now in front of you?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will tell

11 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing -- I solemnly declare that I will

12 tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you very much. Please be seated.

16 Now, I'd like to explain to you at the outset that we already have

17 in front of us a written statement of evidence to be presented by you, and

18 we are aware of the sensitive nature of the events that you will describe.

19 And all of us have experience of people who have had to suffer similar

20 tragedies in their lives and regrettably have had to come and tell others

21 about it and we understand how difficult that exercise can be. So if at

22 any stage you require respite from giving evidence, just tell me, but I

23 can also say to you from experience that it sometimes helps to take a deep

24 breath and do your best to carry on because one way or another we just

25 have to do our best to get through it.

Page 2267

1 So you're now to be asked a number of questions by the counsel

2 representing parties in this case, the Prosecution and the Defence, and

3 some of them may be questions which challenge what you've said in your

4 statement. Don't be surprised by that. That's part of the system that we

5 operate under. You wouldn't be here unless somebody was expected to be

6 challenging something that you said in the statement. That's just part of

7 the normal process. But what we require is the most honest account we can

8 possibly get of the events and the most honest answers we can get to the

9 questions that are asked.

10 The first person to ask questions will be for the Prosecution,

11 Ms. Moeller.

12 Ms. Moeller?

13 Examination by Ms. Moeller:

14 Q. Good afternoon, Madam.

15 A. Good afternoon.

16 MS. MOELLER: [Microphone not activated].

17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.

18 MS. MOELLER: Could the usher take the identification sheet to

19 the witness? This is Exhibit P2265 and it was tendered under seal

20 yesterday.

21 Q. Could you have a look at that sheet and see whether this is your

22 name on there, correctly? And don't say your name.

23 A. Yes, yes. It's all right.

24 MS. MOELLER: I think the sheet has already been shown yesterday

25 to Your Honours and to the Defence. It's in evidence so you can take it

Page 2268

1 away. Thank you.

2 Q. What is your ethnic origin?

3 A. I'm Albanian.

4 Q. Are you married?

5 A. Yes.

6 MS. MOELLER: Could the usher take another sheet, please, to the

7 witness?

8 Q. There is Exhibit P2266 and it was also tendered under seal

9 yesterday, Your Honours.

10 Q. Could you have a look at this sheet and confirm whether this is

11 the name of your husband?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Thank you. Where did you live in 1998 and 1999, Madam?

14 A. In Pristina.

15 Q. And how did you and your husband earn your living at this time in

16 Pristina?

17 A. We worked. Firstly we worked together and then we were expelled

18 from our jobs and then we opened a shop but it didn't go well so we closed

19 it. And then we worked in the private market in a pizzeria, and then we

20 opened a burek shop. And that's what we did until we were expelled from

21 our home.

22 Q. When the NATO bombing started in March 1999, where were you at

23 that time?

24 A. At home.

25 Q. Why were you not at the shop helping your husband?

Page 2269

1 A. I did go from time to time, but I was scared at the time.

2 Q. And what were you scared of?

3 A. I was afraid of the paramilitaries and the police around. There

4 were a lot of police.

5 Q. And what were they doing? What made you afraid of them?

6 A. I was afraid because I saw them in front of the shop I was working

7 and they were beating up the children. There were children selling

8 cigarettes and they would take their cigarettes without paying for them.

9 They were beating people and taking their money away; they wouldn't pay

10 for things. They were bothering people playing Bingo and taking their

11 money.

12 Q. And how was the general situation in Pristina in March 1999? How

13 many people were in the city approximately?

14 A. I can't tell you, but many people came from other places, came

15 into town, and others left. There were too many people in the apartments.

16 It was very difficult for us. We would open up our apartments, some were

17 closed, some opened, people came in from the country-side, from all over

18 the place. We didn't know what was happening.

19 Q. Do you know why these people came into the town from the

20 country-side, as you say?

21 A. They were afraid. They were being thrown out of their homes,

22 expelled from their homes.

23 Q. And how did you know that?

24 A. How I found out? I heard about it.

25 Q. From whom did you hear about that?

Page 2270

1 A. The people themselves, the people who lost their homes.

2 Q. How was your life during these days?

3 A. It was all right up until then but then it became very difficult

4 after April, after the 1st of April.

5 Q. Before the 1st of April, how did you get your food?

6 A. Sometimes we bought food from the neighbours. There were shops

7 around. There was a burek shop there and we would get food and take it

8 home and cook it at home. We took food from our own shop. We cooked when

9 there was electricity but often the electricity was off and there was no

10 telephone either, so we had to stock up food in advance.

11 Q. Around the time the NATO bombing started, and before 1st April,

12 did you meet anyone in Pristina that you knew?

13 A. I lived in town. I met people, all sorts of people.

14 Q. Do you know a person called Baton Haxhiu?

15 A. Yes, I do. He was a neighbour of mine.

16 Q. And did you know his father?

17 A. Very well.

18 Q. Where did you know him from?

19 A. I knew because he came and lived in a neighbouring apartment on

20 the -- I think it was the third floor, with Baton.

21 Q. And when did you last speak to him?

22 A. I can't remember when I last spoke to Baton but I did talk to the

23 father. I met Baton's father in Brigoj e Dilit [phoen] neighbourhood, and

24 he was so beaten up I couldn't even recognise him.

25 Q. Did he say anything to you, why he was so beaten up?

Page 2271

1 A. They beat him up because they were looking for his son. They

2 spread rumours that his son had been killed.

3 Q. And he told you that?

4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: "He spread rumours

5 himself that his son had been killed."

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.


8 Q. Let us now move to the 1st of April 1999. Where were you on that

9 day?

10 A. I was at home on the 1st of April.

11 Q. And where were your husband on that day?

12 A. He was in the shop.

13 Q. How was the situation in your neighbourhood that day?

14 A. I don't know how to explain it. It's difficult for me. I thought

15 that it was my husband knocking at the door. It was about 12.30 in the

16 afternoon, but it was not him. It was three other people. I thought

17 maybe they came to loot, and I would give them everything. I just didn't

18 want them to touch me. One of them was -- the other -- the two of them

19 were searching the rooms while one of them did whatever he wanted with me.

20 Q. Can I stop here, Witness? Could we go into private session here,

21 Your Honours? Please?

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. In view of the nature of the evidence that

23 you are seeking to elicit, we will go into private session. I just invite

24 you to restrict the evidence as far as you possibly can within reason.

25 MS. MOELLER: Yes, Your Honours, I will try my best.

Page 2272

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22 [Open session]

23 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 2277

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Moeller.


3 Q. After the 1st of April, how long did you continue to stay in your

4 apartment?

5 A. Two more nights.

6 Q. And why did you leave then? That was on the 3rd of April; is that

7 correct?

8 A. The 3rd of April, we were expelled from our homes because we

9 didn't want to leave our homes, but it was not possible to stay because

10 otherwise, if we did not leave, they would kill us. These people came in

11 masks and they told us to go to the railway station, all the roads and all

12 the streets were full of people.

13 Q. You just said, "they expelled us." Who were "they"?

14 A. It was the paramilitaries. That's how we called them.

15 Q. How did they look?

16 A. Their clothes were green and black, dark green and brown and

17 black, camouflage. I will never forget them.

18 Q. You just said a minute ago the roads and all the streets were full

19 of people. Who were these people?

20 A. People from town.

21 Q. Of which ethnicity?

22 A. Albanians. Everybody was trying to protect themselves. They were

23 all lining up, going to the station, to the railway station, to take us to

24 Bllaca. We did not know where we were going but that's where they took

25 us, to Bllaca.

Page 2278

1 Q. Did you see any Serbs being in that -- the group of people?

2 A. I didn't hear anybody speak in Serb. I didn't.

3 Q. So you said you were told to go to the railway station. What

4 happened at the railway station, the Pristina railway station, is it?

5 A. I thought I would die. It was -- we were so close to each other,

6 I could not breathe. People came to ask for money. We did not know how

7 much money we had to pay. Everybody gave what they had. Such a crowd,

8 such a crowd.

9 Nobody knew who was the conductor of the train. They came and

10 asked for money and we gave lots of money to them. I think we paid at

11 least 3 times the fare, the normal fare.

12 Q. And you already told the Court that you were taken to Bllaca with

13 this train. How many people do you think were at Bllaca with you? Can

14 you give an estimate?

15 A. I couldn't tell you. The whole of Pristina was there, lying down,

16 sick people, all there. Everybody was sick. The rain was falling. Every

17 three seconds, I had to go. It was cold. The rain was falling on us and

18 we just slept like that outside. We got colds there. The conditions were

19 horrible. I can't tell you how horrible they were.

20 Q. And where did you go from Bllaca?

21 A. From Bllaca, we were taken to tents. I got separated from my

22 husband. You can't imagine how difficult that was for me. Nobody knows

23 that but me. We were taken by bus to some tents. I was taken to a

24 certain tent. And two months after we got separated, the Red Cross helped

25 us to get together. It was so difficult.

Page 2279

1 Q. Madam, how is your health today, after all that happened to you?

2 A. My health, well, if somebody sees me today, after so many years,

3 they wouldn't believe it's me. I have no desire to buy clothes and to

4 maintain myself. My face has changed. My body has changed. I buy

5 children-sized clothes now. I used to take care of myself a lot and I

6 loved clothes and everything. Now I don't. I don't care. As I said, I

7 buy children-sized clothes. I can't eat. I think my stomach has shrunk,

8 and my teeth now are so bad because of all these medicines I take. My

9 God, my God.

10 Q. Thank you, Madam.

11 MS. MOELLER: Your Honours, that would conclude my questions.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Ms. Moeller.

13 Mr. O'Sullivan?

14 MR. O'SULLIVAN: We'll proceed in this order: Counsel for

15 General Lukic, General Pavkovic, and thereafter, the indictment.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

17 Mr. Ivetic?

18 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic:

20 Q. Madam my name is Dan Ivetic, and along with Branko Lukic and Ozren

21 Ogrizovic, I represent Mr. Sreten Lukic.

22 Now, I know it's difficult for you to testify about some of the

23 things you have testified about today. I will try and make this process

24 as smooth as possible so as to minimise any discomfort to you. But please

25 understand that I have to ask questions to try and understand your

Page 2280

1 testimony a bit better and to help in the process of finding out exactly

2 what had happened in Pristina during the relevant time period.

3 Now, first of all, I want to ask you if you recall giving a

4 statement to investigators of the Office of the Prosecutor in 2003, in May

5 of 2003.

6 A. M'hm.

7 Q. I'm sorry, ma'am. Was that a yes? We have to have vocal answers

8 otherwise we can't be certain.

9 A. Yes. Yes, I did.

10 Q. Okay. And at that time, was the statement read back to you in

11 Albanian so that you could understand it and confirm that everything

12 contained therein was accurate, in terms of reflecting the truth of what

13 you had told the investigator?

14 A. No. I will never forget the problems I had.

15 Q. Okay, ma'am. I apologise. Perhaps my question was compound and

16 difficult to answer.

17 The statement that you gave to the Office of the Prosecutor in May

18 of 2003, was that statement read back to you in the Albanian language so

19 that you could understand it?

20 A. You mean did they do it? I have forgotten, I don't know whether I

21 read it again.

22 Q. Okay. Do you recall --

23 A. I gave a -- the statement in 2003. Do you mean is that -- do you

24 mean did I read that one again?

25 Q. I'm asking, ma'am, if -- ma'am, if anyone at that time in 2003

Page 2281

1 read back that statement to you in the Albanian language so that you could

2 understand it.

3 A. Yes. What I said was translated into English because I don't know

4 English. What I said, my words, were translated but that's what I said.

5 Q. Okay, ma'am, thank you. And then you in fact signed the English

6 text of that statement in 2003; is that correct? After it had been

7 translated to you?


9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Let's get to the point you want to make. We know

11 that this is a very circuitous route that doesn't really take our

12 understanding of matters any further.

13 MR. IVETIC: I'm just trying to establish that she did sign the

14 statement and that the statement contains --

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, it's not a jury you're in front of. I've

16 told you this before, Mr. Ivetic. We can see that it's signed. We don't

17 need these things spelled out to us as a foundation in the way that you

18 might deal with them before a jury.

19 MR. IVETIC: Fair enough, Your Honour. But for purposes of the

20 record I believe we do need to have them into the record so as to have a

21 complete record for purposes of these proceedings. I appreciate that

22 the -- that the Trial Chamber is professional and versed in these matters

23 but for the record and -- of these proceedings, I believe that we have

24 to. But I will try to short-circuit some of that as well.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: I mean, what would have helped would have been to

Page 2282

1 have this statement as an exhibit. And it could have been shown to the

2 witness and we could have expedited the process.

3 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, we do not have the statement in Albanian

4 so I could not do that.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: The signature was of an English copy, as I

6 understand it; that's what the questions are about, signing an English

7 copy. And it would have helped to have it, to see her signature, and she

8 could have short-circuited this exercise.

9 MR. IVETIC: True, but the -- I don't think the English statement

10 would have helped refresh her recollection as to what was done with the

11 statement and whether it was read back to her.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: That's when we get to the real issue. I'm talking

13 about these procedural niceties that you seem to be so intent upon

14 pursuing in each case, which I, yet again, suggest to you are unnecessary

15 for our purposes.

16 MR. IVETIC: Okay, Your Honour. I will try to short-circuit those

17 for my examinations.

18 Q. Now, Madam, first of all, I would like to ask you a couple of

19 questions from your -- relative to your husband. Now, during the time

20 that you have known him, have you noticed any visual acuity problems?

21 A. Could you start that again, please?

22 Q. Sure. During the time that you've known your husband, have you

23 noticed any visual acuity problems? That is to say, any difficulties

24 distinguishing between any colours?

25 A. Yes, many. When I send him to buy something, he doesn't

Page 2283

1 understand the colours of the things. He can distinguish white and black

2 but the other colours he gets mixed up. He's very confused in colours.

3 Q. Thank you, ma'am. That clarifies things greatly for me.

4 Now, during the time period that you lived and worked in Pristina,

5 and now I'm talking -- well, during the entire time period that you lived

6 and worked in Pristina, when you saw policemen on the street, that is to

7 say uniformed members of the Ministry of the Interior, what kind of

8 uniforms did they wear?

9 A. The normal uniforms had "police" written on them. They were

10 normal uniforms. For instance, was either black or white, but the

11 policemen always had a badge and we knew they were policemen because it

12 said "policemen." They were normal municipal policemen, normal.

13 Q. And ma'am, now I have to ask you, with respect to these -- what

14 you've described as normal uniforms, what -- was there any pattern on

15 them, with the colours?

16 A. Well, they had a badge and they were policemen. We knew they were

17 policemen. They were the normal police.

18 Q. And as part of the uniforms of the police, was there also any type

19 of hat or head-gear and, if there was, could you describe it?

20 A. Of the policemen earlier, you mean? I can't really tell you

21 whether they wore hats. I wasn't paying attention to things like that,

22 about the policemen at the time. I didn't have any problems or any

23 encounters with the police. I was never paying attention to what -- to

24 whether they were wearing hats or not but I do know that they were all

25 wearing the same uniforms and we could recognise them as policemen.

Page 2284

1 Q. Okay. Thank you. And would it be accurate to state that these

2 uniforms that the policemen wore on a daily basis were not green in

3 colour?

4 A. They had -- the people who expelled us from our homes were not

5 policemen. They had different uniforms. They had masks and had long

6 boots and green uniforms and masks. They were not the same as the police.

7 These people came into my house. I will never forget them.

8 Q. I can understand that, ma'am. Now, if I can draw your attention

9 and I know it's difficult but let's start with March 31st of 1999. I

10 believe that you had an encounter with some people that came to your home

11 on March 31st of 1999. Do you recall that?

12 A. People came to help me but I didn't want them to -- I was afraid.

13 I didn't want too many people around me because they --

14 Q. Let me try and assist you. I understand you've already discussed

15 what happened to you on April the 1st of 1999, when the three men came to

16 your apartment. I don't want to repeat that incident. I'm talking about

17 the day before. Do you recall the day before that event, that some men

18 came to your home, to your apartment, on that day?

19 A. Yes. They came because they wanted a place to spend the night.

20 But it was in the basement but we didn't want them to. We didn't want

21 them. They wanted to bring their whole families with them and there was

22 no room.

23 Q. Can I try to direct you: Specifically, do you remember an

24 encounter with some men in uniforms that came to your home on the night

25 before the instance where you were assaulted by three men?

Page 2285

1 A. They came to loot and to take things. They came to all the houses

2 in the neighbourhood.

3 Q. And ma'am, these men that came in uniforms, did they have the same

4 uniforms as the three men that came on April 1st and assaulted you?

5 A. Yes, the same, the same uniform; not policemen, the uniform was

6 the same as the one I described.

7 Q. And you're very clear that these individuals were not policemen,

8 were not from the Ministry of the Interior?

9 A. No. I'm sure, a hundred per cent, that they weren't.

10 Q. Thank you, ma'am.

11 Now, if you could please direct your attention now to the events

12 of April the 3rd 1999, when you stated that men came and expelled you from

13 your home. At that point in time, when you were expelled from your home,

14 is it accurate to state that none of the men engaged in expelling you from

15 your home and forcing you to the train station, none of them were wearing

16 uniforms that you would describe as being police uniforms of the Ministry

17 of the Interior?

18 A. No, they had the same uniform as the people who came into our

19 house. They were not policemen. There weren't policemen. I mean the

20 ones that expelled us from our homes.

21 Q. And ma'am, at that point in time, you were with your husband; is

22 that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. At all times, up until the point where you said you were separated

25 from him, he was with you; is that accurate?

Page 2286

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And during that period of time, is it accurate to state that there

3 were no police present participating in any of the events between the time

4 that you were expelled from your home and the time that you arrived at the

5 train station?

6 A. No. I did not see a single policeman. I can't say that I did

7 when I didn't.

8 Q. Thank you very much, ma'am.

9 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I think I am finished with this

10 witness.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.

12 Mr. Aleksic.

13 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we don't have

14 questions for this witness. Thank you.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. O'Sullivan?

16 MR. O'SULLIVAN: No questions.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Fila?

18 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] No questions. Thank you.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Sepenuk? And

20 MR. SEPENUK: [No interpretation]

21 JUDGE BONOMY: And Mr. Bakrac?

22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No questions.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Is there any re-examination, Ms. Moeller?

24 MS. MOELLER: No questions, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

Page 2287

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Madam, Judge Chowhan as a question for you.

3 Questioned by the Court:

4 JUDGE CHOWHAN: I just want to ask you, that incident you

5 described very explicitly before us, did you suffer from any medical --

6 any disease of your body, ever since then? Did you have any other disease

7 you suffered from or -- because of consequences and so on?

8 A. Illness? Well, my emotional state is not right. That's the

9 biggest illness I have.

10 JUDGE CHOWHAN: Thank you. Thank you very much.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, thank you, Madam. That completes your

12 evidence. Thank you for coming to the Tribunal to give it. We are going

13 to adjourn now, if you just remain where you are, arrangements will be

14 made to escort you from the courtroom in a moment.

15 And the Chamber will now adjourn and will resume at 10 minutes

16 past 4.00.

17 [The witness withdrew]

18 --- Recess taken at 3.50 p.m.

19 --- On resuming at 4.10 p.m.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: The next witness, Mr. Hannis?

21 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour. I'm not sure the next

22 witness has arrived yet because of how quickly things went this afternoon.

23 I was told right before the break it was going to take 30 minutes for him

24 to get here. I was advised just a minute ago that he -- he is on the way

25 but I'm not sure if he's here yet.

Page 2288

1 In the meantime, there was one matter I wanted to address with

2 Your Honour concerning this municipality. We had an additional witness

3 that we had proposed as a 92 bis(C) witness. This is Anthony Russo

4 [phoen]. He's deceased. In the Court's prior ruling regarding the 92 bis

5 evidence, I'll quote, the Court stated that, quote, "The written statement

6 of Mr. Russo is directly relevant to crimes allegedly committed in

7 Pristina in 1999. It is thus relevant crime base evidence. It is also

8 cumulative and said to be corroborative of the evidence of proposed

9 witnesses Nazlie Bala and Emin Kabashi, who may be cross-examined. The

10 trial court thus considers it appropriate to admit the evidence albeit

11 cross-examination is not possible."

12 The court didn't go on to rule at that time, it indicated that if

13 the evidence is ultimately admitted, the Trial Chamber will have very much

14 in mind the absence of the opportunity to cross-examine him. Because now

15 we've finished with our crime-base witnesses for Pristina I wanted to

16 bring it to your attention at this time and tender it. It is Exhibit

17 P2261. And I ask to you take it into consideration at this time in

18 connection with those other Pristina witnesses.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Hannis. Does any Defence counsel

20 have anything to say on this?

21 Very well. That will be admitted in terms of 92 bis(C).

22 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

23 [Trial chamber and legal officer confer]

24 MR. HANNIS: And, Your Honour, our next witness will be Milazim

25 Thaqi, T-h-a-c-i [sic]. His evidence pertains in particular to events in

Page 2289

1 Izbica village, Skenderaj, or Srbica municipality, and relates in

2 particular to paragraph 72(C) and 75(F) as well as schedule F to the

3 indictment.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Hannis.

5 MR. HANNIS: And he is a witness we are proceeding with under Rule

6 92 bis(D), Your Honour.

7 [The witness entered court]

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Good afternoon, Mr. Thaqi.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Would you please make the solemn declaration by

11 reading aloud the document which will now be placed before you.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

13 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. My name is Milazim

14 Thaqi.


16 [Witness answered through interpreter]

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, please be seated.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 Now, take your time to -- yeah, please adjust these so that they

20 are comfortable.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's a little tight.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Thaqi, we have before us already a copy of

23 a statement that you have made. We also have a written record of the

24 evidence which you gave when you were here before. So we know a great

25 deal already about what you have to say. And the purpose of this

Page 2290

1 afternoon's hearing is to allow the counsel involved in the case to ask

2 you some further questions. And the first counsel to ask questions of you

3 will be for the Prosecution, Mr. Hannis.

4 Mr. Hannis?

5 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Examination by Mr. Hannis:

7 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Thaqi.

8 A. Good afternoon.

9 Q. Would you tell us your name, please, your full name?

10 A. My name is Milazim Thaqi.

11 Q. And Mr. Thaqi, I understand that you were born in 1946, you have

12 always lived in the village of Broja --

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You have always lived --

15 A. Yes, I have.

16 Q. Okay. And that you are a Kosovar Albanian Muslim?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And as the judge indicated, we do have a transcript of your prior

19 testimony in the Milosevic case, and your prior written statements, which

20 are in evidence.

21 MR. HANNIS: And, Your Honour, we would tender those at this time,

22 22 -- P2247 being the transcript and P2246 being his 92 bis package.

23 Q. Mr. Thaqi, did you have a chance --

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Before you go on, Mr. Hannis, apart from his

25 statement, is there anything else in that 92 bis package? I think there

Page 2291

1 may be photographs, are there?

2 MR. HANNIS: There is a photograph that was attached to his

3 statement which has a separate exhibit number and which I will show him

4 later on.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: You'll deal with that. There are actually -- I've

6 got copies of three photographs here and I have two statements; is that

7 correct?

8 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour. I believe there are two

9 statements. One shorter statement that deals with the aerial photograph

10 of the area and there were three photographs of clothing with holes in

11 them, which he relates to in his statement as the clothing he was wearing

12 the day the shootings occurred.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: And these are still attached to a statement as part

14 of this package, are they?

15 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.

17 MR. HANNIS: They are included within that page range, as I

18 understand.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: And the two interviews were in November 1999 and

20 October 2001?

21 MR. HANNIS: Correct.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you very much.

23 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

24 Q. Mr. Thaqi, did you have a chance to go over your statements with

25 me and Ms. Fikirini here yesterday, briefly, to see if there were any

Page 2292

1 corrections?

2 A. Yes, I did.

3 Q. And if I may --

4 A. It was fine. Everything was all right. Everything that I read

5 was all right.

6 Q. If I may direct your attention, I believe there were two -- two

7 places where you indicated that there were -- there were things that

8 needed to be corrected. On page 6 of the English, paragraph 4, you talk

9 about when on April 7th you were reunited with your family, and in the

10 English statement, it says that happened at Tushica, and I believe you

11 told us that that was not the correct name?

12 A. Tushi. It should be Tushile.

13 MR. HANNIS: And, Your Honour, that was part of a supplement --

14 information that we provided to the Defence.

15 Q. Also on page 6 in the second paragraph, you mentioned that, when

16 you went to assist with the burials of the victims that were killed on the

17 28th of March, that it was a Wednesday, the 1st of April 1999, but looking

18 at the calendar we saw that Wednesday was on the 31st. Were you able to

19 determine whether it was the 31st of March, on the Wednesday, or on the

20 1st of April?

21 A. It was a Wednesday, four days after the massacre. It was a

22 Wednesday. That's the day that they were buried.

23 Q. And I recall from our discussions that you indicated the massacre

24 occurred on Sunday, the 28th; is that correct?

25 A. Sunday, yes. It was the day of Bajram, the day of sacrifice.

Page 2293

1 That's when the people were massacred.

2 Q. And in counting four days you included Sunday, the 28th?

3 A. Yes. Yes. That's it. There are four days in all.

4 Q. Thank you. Now I just have a few questions about your statement

5 and I have one photograph I want to show you and ask you about, and also a

6 map.

7 But first of all, in your statement, your first statement from

8 1999, in the last paragraph in the English on page 2, you mentioned that

9 on the 26th of March you and your family left your village of Broja to go

10 to Izbica?

11 A. Yes, that's true.

12 Q. And you say, "I was fearful of what the Serbs would do."

13 What were you fearful of and why?

14 A. Because there had been other massacres in Prekaz, Qires, and other

15 places. And Likoshan.

16 Q. All right. So you travelled to Izbica and we understand from your

17 statement you stayed there on the night of the 26th and the 27th. In your

18 statement, you say that you could hear shooting and shelling going on

19 constantly. Could you tell from where -- from where or from which

20 direction the shelling and shooting was --

21 A. It was from Pelicej [phoen], Junik, from that direction. We were

22 in a valley, we were -- there were hills around us on all sides. We only

23 heard them, we couldn't see them.

24 Q. I want to take to you the morning of the 28th, which you told us

25 was a Sunday in March 1999?

Page 2294

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. On page 3 in the English, the second paragraph up from the bottom,

3 you mention the first thing you saw around 9.30 that morning were three

4 policemen setting fire to a haystack and then coming closer.

5 A. Yes. It was hay, a haystack.

6 Q. And you describe how they came and asked for money?

7 A. Yes, that's true.

8 Q. What can you tell us about these three individuals? What

9 ethnicity were they, if you know?

10 A. I don't know the nationality but I know that they were dressed in

11 black. They were dark-skinned. I approached them and they asked money

12 from me, a thousand marks from us, and I gave them 3 -- 30 marks. The

13 others had 200, 300. People gave whatever they had, in order that they

14 not harm the people and burn the houses.

15 Q. And --

16 A. And the tractors.

17 Q. These people, what language did they speak to you in?

18 A. In Serbian.

19 Q. And I understand from your statement you understand and speak

20 Serbian?

21 A. Yes, I do.

22 Q. And I believe I understand that's from your time in your

23 compulsory military service that you learned the language?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. In the last paragraph on page 3 of the English, you describe that

Page 2295

1 a few minutes later, more - what you described as police - approached.

2 You said there were about 80 of them; is that correct?

3 A. I would think around 80. I can't tell you the exact number.

4 Q. And at the top of page 4, you mention that about 25 of these 80

5 individuals were wearing a blue camouflage uniform. What about the other

6 50 plus? What were they wearing? What did they look like?

7 A. They were dressed like paramilitaries and there were normal

8 soldiers there with some of them had black scarves around their heads.

9 Q. Okay. Whether you say they were dressed like paramilitaries, can

10 you give the Court some more information about that or can you describe

11 their uniforms or their appearance otherwise?

12 A. Yes. May I speak?

13 Q. Yes, please.

14 A. The paramilitaries were like Seselj's Chetniks and they had a

15 head-piece with a visor. I was sure that it was them.

16 Q. Can you describe other than their head-piece with a visor what

17 they were wearing?

18 A. They looked almost like the normal army uniforms.

19 Q. Of what colour, if you know?

20 A. Like grass colour, like green.

21 Q. And was it one solid colour or some kind of design or pattern?

22 A. It was a bit pale.

23 Q. Okay. I still don't understand, though. Was it just one solid

24 colour or did it have any kind of design or stripes, polka dots, checks?

25 A. Some of them had camouflage uniforms but I don't really know what

Page 2296

1 to say.

2 Q. Okay.

3 A. How many of them there were.

4 Q. Okay. Of the 80, then, we had 25 wearing blue camouflage uniforms

5 and some of the others which you've described as paramilitary?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And did you indicate that there was a third group?

8 A. There were paramilitary and then there were soldiers.

9 Q. What did you -- did the ones you describe as normal soldiers

10 wear?

11 A. They were wearing Yugoslav military dress.

12 Q. And you mention the some wearing black head scarves, I believe.

13 Which ones were those?

14 A. Yes. There were some with black head scarves. I don't know who

15 they were.

16 Q. Were they -- the ones with black head scarves, were they wearing

17 the blue camouflage, the green camouflage, or the regular army uniform, if

18 you recall?

19 A. I'm sorry, I don't know. I just remember that they had black head

20 scarves around their heads.

21 Q. That's all right. Thank you. On page 4 of the English, in the

22 third paragraph, you describe how this group of men then separated out the

23 men from the rest of the thousands of people that were in the field that

24 day, and you were in that group of about 150 men. Can you describe for us

25 the --

Page 2297

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. -- I'm sorry. And in your statement you describe the man who

3 appeared to be in charge, giving orders. You said he had some sort of

4 badge or insignia on the sleeve of each arm of his green olive-coloured

5 camouflage uniform. Can you tell us anything else about that insignia or

6 badge?

7 A. Yes. That was what he was wearing. I don't know -- what else do

8 you want me to say about it?

9 Q. Did you -- did you -- can you tell us anything about the badge or

10 the -- or the insignia on his sleeves?

11 A. They had insignia like Yugoslav soldiers. And he was about 165

12 centimetres tall, a bit fat. He had green eyes, I think, and a crooked

13 nose. He was about 27 to 30 years old.

14 Q. In your statement, you tell us about what happened while you were

15 sitting there and the abuse that you underwent before this man you

16 described as the commander spoke in Serbian and told -- and told his men

17 that, "Everyone knows their duty; now do it." When you and -- you were in

18 a group of men that were marched off by one policeman, and I believe you

19 said there were about 30 or 33 of you in your group; is that correct?

20 A. Yes, that's correct.

21 Q. And Mr. Thaqi, you tell in your statement how you were marched

22 some 200, 250 metres away, told to kneel down, and then the shooting

23 started. Was there only one --

24 A. Yes, that's right.

25 Q. Was there only one policeman or one individual with a gun who took

Page 2298

1 the 33 of you to the -- and what kind of machine-gun did he --

2 A. There was only that one person who killed the people.

3 Q. And --

4 A. He had a machine-gun, 100, and we found the cartridges later

5 there.

6 Q. Okay. When you say "a machine-gun, 100," what do you mean?

7 A. It's a 100 machine-gun, it's called. Sorry, I can't really

8 describe it any more. We just called 100 machine-gun and it had a belt

9 with 50 cartridges and they shot -- they fired three times.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: He fired three times.


12 Q. Three times, does that mean three single shots?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Okay. But there were 33 in your group and how many were killed?

15 A. There were 30 who were killed and only three survived. I and two

16 others, Sheqir, Qallapeki.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: The statement says, "he sprayed the bullets up and

18 down the lines three times."

19 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour, I'm going to follow up on that.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Mr. Thaqi --

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. -- in the transcript, it said you -- by three times you meant

24 three single shots. I'm trying to understand how 30 men were killed if he

25 only fired three single shots. Did I misunderstand your earlier answer?

Page 2299

1 A. Well, there were three bursts of fire and about 150 shots, not

2 three bullets. I had four -- I got four bullets in my clothing alone.

3 Q. Thank you. I understand now.

4 A. You're welcome.

5 Q. Now, I would like to show you a photograph. I think you've seen

6 it before. It's Exhibit P244, if we could bring that up on the screen for

7 Mr. Thaqi to look at. This may take a moment, Mr. Thaqi, but I want to

8 ask you if you can help us understand where some of the locations are that

9 are shown on this photograph. And after --

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... group had been shot and you

12 were still alive, what did you do?

13 A. We stayed there for 40 minutes. There were two bodies on me. We

14 lay there for 40 minutes. I shouted in pain and I heard other shouts but

15 there was this other person who moved and he asked me, "Who are you?" I

16 said, "I am Milazim," and he said, "I'm Sheqir." He said, "Don't move,

17 please don't move. Stay calm. Let's get alive from here."

18 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness slow down for the benefit of

19 the interpreters, please.


21 Q. Mr. Thaqi, the witnesses are asking to you slow down a bit so that

22 they can keep up.

23 A. Yes, of course.

24 I -- Demush Asllani, he gave a cry and I gave a cry as well. And

25 Sheqir touched my left leg and he asked me, "Who are you?" And I said,

Page 2300

1 "I'm Milazim from Broja." I asked him his name and he said, "I'm Sheqir

2 from Drenikej [phoen]." Vojinike.

3 So later we got up and went to the mountains, in the direction of

4 the mountains, of the forest, and there was a tractor track there in the

5 mountain. The Serbs were there.

6 Q. Let me stop you there for a moment.

7 While I'm still waiting for the photo to come up on my monitor,

8 and let me ask you another question. While -- while you were lying there

9 with the other survivors in your group as well as the dead men in your

10 group, could you hear anything going on around you?

11 A. You mean when we buried the bodies, the people who died?

12 Q. No. While you were still lying underneath the men who had been

13 shot in your group, before you got up with the other survivors and went

14 away, did you hear anything going on?

15 A. We heard some cracks, cracking noises. The other group, 20 metres

16 away, I heard the shots. That's what I heard, three groups.

17 Q. Let me ask you now, do you have a photograph on the screen in

18 front of you? Do you --

19 A. Yes, yes.

20 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... recognise that?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What's that a picture of?

23 A. The first group was here in the photograph while we were here on

24 top of the photograph.

25 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... I think we can mark on this

Page 2301

1 photograph with the pen he's handing you. Can you see --

2 A. Yes, I'll do that.

3 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... letter A that's already on

4 the photograph?

5 A. Oh, yes, yes.

6 Q. And can you tell us where the letter A, the line is pointing to

7 that comes from the letter of A? What's that location?

8 A. It's Izbica. We were right above the cemetery. There was a ditch

9 there, a canal.

10 Q. And in your statement before I think you've described A as

11 referring to the location where the first group was shot; is that correct?

12 A. Yes, that's correct.

13 Q. And on this photograph, the letter B or almost looks like the

14 number 13, can you tell us what location that is referring to? Who or

15 what was in that location?

16 A. This was the second group in the field at a pear tree. I found

17 there 24 sticks that old people used to walk, and shoes, while the third

18 group is 20 metres above this, in our direction, and nobody survived from

19 that group. One escaped but he was killed later by the Serbs, before he

20 got to that tractor track. They called on him, "Stop." He didn't stop

21 and they killed him.

22 Q. Now --

23 A. While the fourth group was on the right side about 500 metres

24 away, it was at the foot of the mountain; Mustafa Draga was there.

25 Q. Okay. And let me ask you if on this photograph you can use the

Page 2302

1 pen to write the number 2 and draw a circle around what you described in

2 your second statement as the second group of, I think, 27 men?

3 A. This is the first one, here.

4 Q. And if you could --

5 A. The second one was here.

6 Q. Can you write the number 2 and draw a circle around where the

7 second group was?

8 A. The second group is here, at the pear tree, and the third one

9 here.

10 Q. Thank you. Could we take a screen shot of that?

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Just before you do, we've now got how many marks on

12 the screen?

13 MR. HANNIS: Four.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Four.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: You didn't give him time to finish, Mr. Hannis.

16 There are four groups --

17 MR. HANNIS: Yes, I'm sorry, and --

18 JUDGE BONOMY: -- and one of the things I'm rather confused about

19 is the A and B are written but they are directed to other points which are

20 at the end of lines which run from them.

21 MR. HANNIS: Yes, before we mark that --

22 JUDGE BONOMY: This is becoming a rather confusing exercise if it

23 really is vital at all, but ...

24 MR. HANNIS: Let me ask a couple of questions and see if I can

25 clarify, Your Honour.

Page 2303

1 Q. Mr. Thaqi, the letter A where you've drawn a triangle, to the left

2 of it where you've drawn the mark, is that where you were? Is that where

3 the shooting occurred? Or is it at the other end of the line from the

4 letter A?

5 A. Yes. No, no. This is the first group. We were at the mountain,

6 the first group. The second group was in the field. The third one was

7 above us, 20 metres away from us, and the fourth one on this other side.

8 Q. I understand. The question I'm trying to ask, Mr. Thaqi, is where

9 were you actually standing or kneeling at the time you were shot? Are you

10 by the letter A in this photograph or are you farther up above where the

11 line from the letter A is pointing toward what appears to be a ditch?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Well, I'm sorry I asked the question.

14 A. We -- yes. I was lying there and I had two bodies on -- above me,

15 you know, and as I said I was lying there for 40 minutes.

16 Q. I'm sorry, I feel like we are miscommunicating. Where were you?

17 Are you next to the letter A or are you farther north on this photograph,

18 if the top is north? I understand that you were marched off to the

19 woods --

20 A. In that direction. We went in -- in that direction with Sheqir

21 and we followed that tractor track towards Belica and we stopped there.

22 We rested for a little bit, and I saw some Marlboro cigarette packets, and

23 the boots that they had left there, the night of the Saturday, I mean.

24 Okay.

25 Q. Let me stop you there for a second. From your statement I

Page 2304

1 understood you were marched about 200 or 250 metres, you came alongside a

2 water channel or a canal, I guess, used to water fields in the summer.

3 That's where you were ordered to stop and kneel down and that's where you

4 were shot. Does this photograph show where that water canal is?

5 A. Yes. Yes, yes.

6 Q. And can you draw a line tracing that water canal on the photograph

7 for me, please?

8 A. The water canal was here, here.

9 Q. And was it next to the water canal that your group was when you

10 were shot?

11 A. Yes. That's where we were shot.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 MR. HANNIS: I don't have any more questions about that at the

14 moment. I think I'll forgo the screen shot, however. I think the verbal

15 description with what is in his written statement and the photograph are

16 probably more helpful than this particular photograph, and I don't want to

17 start over.

18 Q. Now, Mr. Thaqi, you describe in your statement then what happened

19 after you and the survivors went off, and how you stayed in Vojinik for a

20 couple of days and then how on the 31st of March you went to assist with

21 the burial of the victims.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did you see anyone filming those activities that day?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Who was that?

Page 2305

1 A. He was Dr. Lili Lloshi [phoen], with my cousin Sefa [phoen].

2 Q. And during that process of burying the men who were killed on the

3 28th, did you assist in identifying who some of those people were? Or

4 providing the names?

5 A. Yes. The people that I knew, there were people from Izbica. We

6 wrote the names, and we put a stick, a piece -- a board on each grave and

7 we wrote the name and surname of each person. The name and surname was

8 also written on a notebook.

9 Q. Since that day, have you seen the film or the video that

10 Dr. Lloshi made of the burial of the victims?

11 A. Once only.

12 Q. I want to ask you about something that -- that you told us about

13 when we met yesterday. After you -- you say in your statement you

14 returned home on the 14th of June 1999, and a couple of days after that --

15 A. On the 14th? Did you say the 14th?

16 Q. June the 14th. June the 14th, after the fighting ended, you

17 returned?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Okay. Did you have occasion shortly after that to return to

20 Izbica, to the burial site?

21 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Objection, Your Honour.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. O'Sullivan, yes?

24 MR. O'SULLIVAN: My objection is based on a supplemental

25 information sheet which we received yesterday evening from the Prosecutor.

Page 2306

1 I believe he's about to embark on a line of questioning which the

2 Prosecution informs us did not form a part of its 65 ter summary. And in

3 our submission, it's not permissible short of showing good cause and due

4 diligence for the Prosecution to proceed in this line of questioning given

5 that the witness was interviewed over a two-day period in 1999, a two-day

6 period in 2001, he testified in the Milosevic trial, and the pre-trial

7 brief does not include this evidence in its summary.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis?

9 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I can only indicate to the Court that in

10 speaking with this witness yesterday, we asked some additional questions

11 that apparently no one had asked him before. He gave us some information

12 about the burial site, which we would like to present to the Court. We

13 notified Defence counsel of this in the supplemental information sheet.

14 We indicated that these two new sentences or paragraphs were not part of

15 the 65 ter summary, and that in furnishing this information we intended to

16 lead information about it and wanted this to serve as notice of that fact.

17 I don't know if the Court received a copy of our supplemental information

18 sheet or not. No. I understand you have not.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: I don't have supplemental information. But we had

20 the same issue with a witness - was it yesterday? - and decided that when

21 this situation arises, you should seek leave of the court and justify

22 leading evidence which is on issues not heralded in the 65 ter summary.

23 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour. I understood the Court to say that

24 that could be done in writing or orally.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: It could, yes.

Page 2307

1 MR. HANNIS: And I guess as a matter of timing, perhaps I should

2 have raised it the first moment we started today. I understood also the

3 Court's -- one of the Court's primary concerns was that the Defence

4 receive notice at the earliest possible occasion and to bring it to their

5 attention that this is something that was not in the 65 ter summary.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: In general terms, what does this relate to?

7 MR. HANNIS: It relates to -- well, Your Honour, I don't know if I

8 should speak to this in front of the witness or not. Perhaps we could

9 have him take his headphones off. I don't know if he speaks and

10 understands English.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: I think if -- Mr. O'Sullivan, do you think that

12 this discussion requires to be out with the hearing of the witness?

13 MR. O'SULLIVAN: The practical solution may be the one proposed by

14 Mr. Hannis. If the witness doesn't understand English we can do it in his

15 presence; otherwise we are doing it in his presence and probably

16 shouldn't.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Thaqi, we have a matter of law to resolve here.

18 While we do that, it is necessary for you briefly to leave the courtroom.

19 The usher will take you outside and we'll summon you back as soon as

20 possible.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Fine.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. So please leave the courtroom briefly.

23 [The witness stands down]

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis?

25 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour. The two paragraphs in

Page 2308

1 supplemental information, one is that the witness says that on the -- that

2 he was told by others that on the 28th of May 1999, the bodies that had

3 been buried in Izbica were exhumed by the Serbs who spent, I think, three

4 days or used excavators to remove those bodies.

5 Then the other thing was, shortly after returning to his home in

6 June 1999, a BBC television team asked him to show them where the bodies

7 were buried. The witness accompanied the team to the burial site and they

8 found the area had been ploughed or leveled as if there were no graves or

9 people buried there, that the planks, some of the planks used to mark the

10 graves were thrown all over the place. They also saw some body parts left

11 behind after this apparent excavation.

12 We anticipate you will hear other evidence in this case about that

13 excavation and where some of the bodies ended up. An autopsy of 100 and

14 some -- 101 were performed by a witness listed in this case, who will be

15 called to testify about that. So it's corroborative of other testimony

16 you will hear in the future.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you remind me of the issue that arose in

18 relation to the other witness?

19 MR. HANNIS: Was that Ms. Moeller's witness, Ms. Bala?

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Is that what it was.

21 MR. HANNIS: I believe it --

22 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, it was. It was Ms. Bala and with

23 respect to the methodology used by the OSCE [indiscernible] disclosed.

24 MR. HANNIS: Yes, when she -- when she worked for OSCE, in -- the

25 manner of recording interviews, et cetera, and as I understood at the

Page 2309

1 time, part of the argument was that that was something that was not

2 mentioned in the 65 ter as evidence that she would discuss.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Hannis.

4 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, we consider the situation to be different

7 here from the situation in the previous case that we dealt with on the

8 22nd of August. There is one difference that rather modifies the

9 significance of this, and that is that the witness is dealing or would be

10 dealing in these additional areas with an expansion of an issue that's

11 already identified as an issue in the 65 ter summary, and that is the

12 alleged massacre that we are dealing with. It's simply an expansion of

13 his knowledge of events relating to that.

14 And the other difference here, the one that really matters is that

15 in our opinion, Mr. Hannis has shown good cause why this additional

16 material ought to be admitted, and he's done so by indicating that his

17 investigations were more searching than those made before and elicited

18 this additional information. So in the circumstances, we will grant the

19 application to lead this additional evidence but we will take account of

20 any request that is made by the Defence for essential -- any essential

21 remedy that they require, such as -- as a result of this, such as

22 recalling the witness, but we do feel that if this does give rise to the

23 need for further inquiry, that perhaps it's an inquiry which that can be

24 made quite quickly, and then that recall might not require the return from

25 Kosovo of the witness but might simply require a delay in his departure.

Page 2310

1 So now let's have the witness back and we'll continue with his

2 evidence.

3 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 [The witness entered court]

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Thaqi, we've dealt with that matter of law, and

6 your evidence will now continue.

7 Mr. Hannis?


9 [Witness answered through interpreter]

10 Examination by Mr. Hannis: [Continued]

11 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

12 Q. Mr. Thaqi in June, shortly after the 14th of June 1999, when you

13 had returned home, did you have occasion to visit the burial site in

14 Izbica?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. How did that come about? Why did you go there?

17 A. I was working at home. I didn't really have any where to sleep.

18 And I had a visitor and he gave me his visiting card and we went together

19 there. And I went with him, and we saw whether they were actually there,

20 the bodies.

21 Q. Let me stop you there. Who was the visitor?

22 A. Someone from the BBC. He gave me his visiting card. I have it at

23 home still. He was a journalist.

24 Q. And what happened when you and he went to the burial site?

25 A. There were four of them all together.

Page 2311

1 Q. Four people from BBC, you mean?

2 A. Yes, yes.

3 Q. What happened then when the five of you went to the burial site?

4 A. When we went there, we had a look and they saw that the bodies had

5 been exhumed with a digger, and taken somewhere else. Some of them had

6 been excavated by hand. We could see some of the bones of the legs and

7 the hands. And this is all true. And we wrote down the -- and the stakes

8 where their names were written on were all over the place.

9 Q. Mr. Thaqi, you had been present on the 31st of March 1999, when

10 the victims had been buried. Do you recall how many people were buried on

11 that day?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What was that number, if you recall?

14 A. 147.

15 Q. Now, did you -- did you hear from anyone or did you get any

16 information about what had happened between the 31st of March 1999, when

17 those 147 were buried and the 14th -- sometime shortly after the 14th of

18 June, when you discovered what you discovered?

19 A. [No interpretation].

20 Q. What did you hear and who did you hear it from?

21 A. What who heard? What do you mean?

22 Q. Well, I'm sorry, the transcript said there was no answer from my

23 earlier question. Let me ask it again.

24 Between the 31st of March, 1999, when you were aware of those 140

25 plus buried and the -- shortly after the 14th of June when you went out

Page 2312

1 and saw the condition of the site, did anyone -- did you get any

2 information from anyone about how that change occurred and where the

3 bodies had gone? Yes or no, first of all.

4 A. Yes. The bodies were taken to Mitrovica and to Vushtrri and to

5 Batajnica and Belgrade. 70 bodies were left over. I don't know what

6 happened to the bodies.

7 Q. Who told you about what had happened to the bodies?

8 A. We buried them ourselves, almost all of them.

9 Q. No. I understand that. But who told you that the bodies had

10 been taken away?

11 A. Who told me?

12 Q. Yes.

13 A. There were -- there were -- someone there and there were shelling

14 that day, lots of shelling, and the people fled, and one of those people

15 saw what was going on from the mountain side. I didn't see it myself.

16 Q. Okay. Did you speak personally with this person?

17 A. Yes, I did.

18 Q. And what did he tell you about who removed the bodies?

19 A. Who removed the bodies?

20 Q. Yes.

21 A. Well, it was the police and the army, the Yugoslav police and

22 army.

23 Q. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Thaqi.

24 MR. HANNIS: May I have a moment, Your Honour?

25 Thank you, I have no other questions of the witness at this time.

Page 2313

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Hannis.

2 Mr. O'Sullivan?

3 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, we'll proceed in this order:

4 General Pavkovic, General Lazarevic, Mr. Milutinovic, Mr. Sainovic,

5 General Ojdanic and General Lukic.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Mr. Aleksic?

7 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Cross-examination by Mr. Aleksic:

9 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Thaqi. I am Aleksandar

10 Aleksic. I am attorney-at-law and, together with Mr. John Ackerman, I

11 represent General Nebojsa Pavkovic. I will be putting some questions to

12 you, I will try to be as specific as possible when putting my questions,

13 and I ask that your answers be as brief as possible, preferably a yes or a

14 no. When preparing for this cross-examination, we had a certain line of

15 questions that I will try to adhere to but in view of what you said here

16 today in your evidence-in-chief, there are some modifications that I will

17 have to make to my prepared questions.

18 Mr. Thaqi, you gave several statements. The first one was in late

19 1999 and then there was an additional statement in 2001, if I'm not

20 mistaken. Then you testified in the case against Mr. Milosevic, and then

21 you provided some additional information, if I understood it well,

22 yesterday. You gave these additional details to the OTP. Correct?

23 A. Yes, that's the way it was.

24 Q. I read once again very carefully your first statement, and the

25 transcript from the Milosevic case, when you were cross-examined by

Page 2314

1 Mr. Milosevic, although I read it in B/C/S, I have to admit. But it seems

2 that it is only today, after all this time, that on page 41, line 5, of

3 the transcript, you said that there were regular soldiers there in VJ

4 uniforms, and then when asked by Mr. Hannis on the following page, you

5 described this person, how tall he was, what eyes and what nose he had,

6 and then, in line 5, you said that this person had an insignia resembling

7 those by the Yugoslav soldiers. Are both of these things correct?

8 A. Yes, that's correct.

9 Q. Will you agree with me, then, that during the past seven years you

10 never mentioned these facts, you never provided this information to

11 anyone?

12 A. Of course I did. I said it in my statement.

13 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise. Do I

14 need to put each of these portions to the witness individually? Or,

15 rather, let's take the description of this person that Mr. Hannis insisted

16 upon. I think it was on page 4 of both B/C/S and English versions,

17 paragraph 3. It says there, or rather the witness describes that person

18 and says, "I would describe him as a person of 27 years of age, a medium

19 build, about 165 centimetres tall, dark brown hair that had a reddish

20 nuance to it. His face was narrow and long and his nose was large and

21 crooked. He had a green camouflage uniform and a cap of the same colour.

22 I think that he had some kind of an emblem or an insignia on his sleeve

23 near the shoulder." This is the description that he gave.

24 Q. My question is, can you once again describe to us this insignia or

25 emblem concerning which today you said that it resembled the ones worn by

Page 2315

1 Yugoslav soldiers?

2 A. I would just have to repeat myself. That's what it was like.

3 It's right what I said. I recognised it.

4 Q. Mr. Thaqi, I'm just asking you this: During the past seven years,

5 you never said that this was an emblem resembling the one worn by Yugoslav

6 soldiers. Initially you said that there was just an emblem or insignia.

7 You didn't qualify it. Can you tell us what shape it was, what colour? I

8 don't want to put any leading questions to you but could you help us with

9 this, please?

10 A. The clothing was of Yugoslav army colours.

11 Q. Very well, Mr. Thaqi. Now I have to read several lines preceding

12 that.

13 Before this description, you said that one of the policemen seemed

14 as though he was in charge and so on and then the description follows.

15 Can you tell us this once again, please, then?

16 A. It was him. That's the one I described.

17 Q. Mr. Thaqi, I'm trying to be as specific as possible. Some time

18 ago you said that this person had an emblem of the Yugoslav army and then

19 now I just read out to you what it says in your statement, where you

20 describe him as a policeman. Do you see a difference there or is it all

21 the same to you?

22 A. No, they are not the same. Soldiers are one thing and policemen

23 are a different thing.

24 Q. Mr. Thaqi, I fully agree with you that soldiers are one and

25 policemen are quite different but you describe the same person both as a

Page 2316

1 policeman and as a soldier. That is the gist of my question. You said he

2 was a policeman but he wore an emblem of the Yugoslav army. Did he also

3 have a red bandana, perhaps?

4 A. No. He didn't. He was wearing Yugoslav colours. I didn't see a

5 bandana on him.

6 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm doing my best but

7 I have to insist on this, if you think that --

8 JUDGE BONOMY: [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Aleksic.

9 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Thaqi said that this man had an

10 emblem worn by those by the Yugoslav soldiers. Three lines before that he

11 described him as a policeman.

12 Q. Thus my question is: Can you tell us, was he a policeman or

13 what?

14 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He wasn't a policeman.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: You've got the answer.

17 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Yes, but, Mr. Thaqi, you said that this policeman was doing

19 certain things and then in the following several paragraphs you continue

20 using the word policeman when speaking of that same person.

21 Mr. Thaqi, for the first time after more than seven years, you

22 used the term Yugoslav army and normal soldiers. Perhaps I wasn't clear

23 enough but in your statement you said this is what this policeman looked

24 like, and then you said he had this emblem, and then you continue

25 referring to this person as a policeman, and now in your evidence here,

Page 2317

1 you are telling us that this person was not a policeman. Can you please

2 describe this discrepancy?

3 A. I say that he was not a policeman. Say whatever you want but he

4 wasn't a policeman.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: What do you say that he actually was?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what he was. He spoke

7 Serbian. He must have been a soldier.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I see it's time for our break so we will

9 break now and resume at 6.00.

10 --- Recess taken at 5.30 p.m.

11 --- On resuming at 6.00 p.m.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis?

13 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I'd just like to confirm, I think I have

14 the sense from the Defence that cross-examination is going to take us to

15 the end of the session and I would like to let the next witness go back to

16 the hotel. I think that's safe. Do I see any disagreement?

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Is that likely to be the position?

18 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I am going to finish.

19 I don't know about the rest of my colleagues. They will probably have

20 some questions too.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.

22 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] May I proceed? Thank you.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: You're call, Mr. Hannis, on this one. I have no

24 idea at the moment.

25 MR. HANNIS: Well, Your Honour, I think I'm going to take the risk

Page 2318

1 and let him go.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Carry on, Mr. Aleksic, please.

3 MR. FILA: [Microphone not activated]

4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for Mr. Fila.

5 The interpreters have trouble hearing Mr. Fila. Could he please

6 speak into the microphone? Thank you.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: The interpreter can't hear what you're saying,

8 Mr. Fila. You're not speaking closely enough to -- that's it. The

9 microphone at that height is better.

10 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] What you allowed today -- well, I'm not

11 questioning the fact that you allowed it. You allowed it because you

12 allowed it. But it led to further discussions on our side so we will

13 probably require more time. Do we understand each other now? I mean what

14 Mr. Hannis found out yesterday, last night, and this additional

15 questioning of the witness actually changed our plans so we most certainly

16 will not be able to finish by 7.00.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

18 Well, the position is clear, then, Mr. Hannis.

19 So carry on now, Mr. Aleksic.

20 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Q. Mr. Thaqi, you testified in the Milosevic case on the 14th of June

22 2002, and that is page 7146, the last few minutes. I'm going to read all

23 of this out to you and then please tell me whether it is correct.

24 Mr. Milosevic says: "You survived this execution. That is the

25 substance of your statement. And you say that this group was taken off by

Page 2319

1 one policeman that you were taken off by one policeman, right?"

2 And your answer was: "Yes."

3 After that, Mr. Milosevic asked you the following: "And apart

4 from this one policeman, there was nobody else with you, just this one

5 policeman, right?"

6 And you said: "I didn't see any other policemen. Only that one.

7 The others remained below in the meadow. Is that right?"

8 That is on page 7147, in continuation.

9 A. May I answer?

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, please.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said -- I called him a policeman

12 but he was a paramilitary and he was with our group. I don't know about

13 the other groups, what happened to them, the groups which were executed.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

15 Mr. Aleksic?

16 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. So, Mr. Thaqi, you are claiming now that this man is a member of

18 paramilitary forces; is that right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Thank you. Now I'm going to move on to another topic. That was

21 actually supposed to be the beginning of our line of cross-examination.

22 Mr. Thaqi, in your statement at the very beginning, that is to

23 say -- sorry, I just need a moment.

24 On page 2 of the B/C/S and English versions, it is the one but

25 last or rather the third paragraph from the bottom. You say, "I heard

Page 2320

1 that the police killed three people as they were shelling." Of course,

2 you don't have any personal knowledge of this whether this was true or

3 not, right? You just heard about that?

4 A. What do you mean?

5 Q. Well, I mean that you're not an eyewitness, that you don't have

6 any direct knowledge. You heard about that so you cannot know whether

7 that was the case.

8 A. Who are you talking about, because I don't understand you.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Why do you ask -- why do you ask a question like

10 this when the statement is clear, that he heard about it from someone

11 else? Why do you need to ask this?

12 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honour. I shall

13 move on to my next topic.

14 Q. In your statement, on page 3 of the Serbian version or rather,

15 sorry, the English version. So in English it is page 3, paragraph 5. In

16 B/C/S it's 1, 2, 3, 4. 4, paragraph 4. You say, "Again that night I

17 could hear the sound of constant shelling and shooting coming, I assumed,

18 from the surrounding villages being attacked by the Serbs." You say, "I

19 assumed."

20 A. We just heard it. We were out in the field --

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Just hold on, please.

22 What is the question?

23 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Precisely. That, "I assumed from

24 the surrounding villages being attacked by the Serbs." So I wanted to

25 continue.

Page 2321

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, but what is the question you want to ask?

2 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Well, Your Honour, was it perhaps

3 the case that these sounds that the witness heard, were they maybe coming

4 from fighting between the KLA and the Serb forces? That's what I mean.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, if you want to do that, then you ask that

6 question.

7 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Mr. Thaqi, perhaps the sounds that you heard were the result of

9 fighting between the KLA and the Serb forces, right?

10 A. No. That was not the way it was because there was no KLA. The

11 KLA did not have military vehicles for launching shell -- rockets or

12 shelling.

13 Q. Thank you. Now I would like to go back to the Milosevic

14 transcript. The page is 7146, and you say -- towards the end of the page,

15 you say that at that meadow, you assume there were between 15.000 and

16 16.000 people; is that right?

17 A. Yes, that's right. Approximately.

18 Q. Okay. Thank you. Out of these 15.000 or 16.000, only 157 were

19 men, right? That's what you said in the Milosevic case on the same page.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. I beg your pardon. The rest were women and children.

22 A. They were all old people, women and children and old men.

23 Q. And the rest? I mean, what about working-age men, if we can put

24 it that way? Where were they? Fighting for the KLA?

25 A. No, not at all. They were -- the old men were in the meadow.

Page 2322

1 There were disabled people there. What could they have fought with? They

2 didn't have any arms.

3 Q. I'm sorry, Mr. Thaqi. Perhaps you did not follow this properly.

4 Maybe I didn't put the question properly. I was not referring to old men

5 who were present.

6 You say that out of 16.000 people, there were only 157

7 military-aged men, able-bodied men, if I can put it that way, but there

8 were more inhabitants. Where were these military-aged men, able-bodied

9 men? I was asking about them. Were they fighting on the side of the

10 KLA?

11 A. No. I don't know where they were.

12 Q. Very well. Mr. Thaqi, you're from the village of Brocna, right?

13 If I understood you correctly today?

14 A. Yes, I am.

15 Q. I beg your pardon. Do you know that the special brigade of the

16 KLA had its headquarters in your village?

17 A. Don't know, no, I don't know anything about that.

18 Q. Thank you. And now, just a few more questions. You said that on

19 the 1st of April or rather, later you said on the 31st of March, you

20 returned to Izbica and that there you saw 150 to 200 persons, right?

21 A. 150 to 200. What exactly do you mean by them? You mean when we

22 were burying the bodies?

23 Q. Yes, yes, yes, yes. As I said, on the 31st of March.

24 A. Yes. There were probably even more, and KLA, they were burying,

25 we were burying together.

Page 2323

1 Q. That's precisely what I wanted to ask you, Mr. Thaqi. How many

2 members of the KLA were present?

3 A. I don't know. How could I know how many there were? I didn't

4 know them personally.

5 Q. Well, I don't think that you knew the 150 or 200 people, all of

6 them, personally. I mean, I'm just asking. Well, thank you.

7 I would just like to put one more question or perhaps two more

8 questions. You say that in your statement on page 6, that you were again

9 with your family on the 7th of April in Tushile and that your family said

10 that the rest were moving towards Albania but that the Serbs returned them

11 and that they returned to their homes. Is that right? The Serbs?

12 A. On that day, where the massacre took place in Izbica, all the

13 other people who were there, the families, women and - not the old

14 people - were expelled in the direction of Albania because they were

15 trying to carry out ethnic cleansing of the whole area up to Gjakova.

16 Q. Mr. Thaqi, that was not my question. My question was as follows:

17 On your statement -- in your statement on page 6 of the B/C/S version,

18 that is to say in English it is page 6, paragraph 4, you said my family

19 and I were reunited at Tushile on or about the 7th of April. I learned

20 from them that they and the others had spent six days walking towards

21 Albania only to be turned back by the Serbs. Did you say that? That's

22 all I'm asking. Yes or no.

23 A. 15 days they were walking with their children, all the way there

24 and all the way back, to Tushile.

25 Q. But they returned, they didn't go to Albania. That's my question,

Page 2324

1 or rather that's the point?

2 JUDGE BONOMY: This is completely --

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: This is completely unnecessary questioning. The

5 statement is as clear as day and doesn't need this confusion cast upon

6 it.

7 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I have no

8 further questions.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Aleksic.

10 Mr. Bakrac? Or Mr. Cepic? Sorry.

11 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

12 Cross-examination by Mr. Cepic:

13 Q. [Interpretation] Today you mentioned on transcript page 39, the

14 last lines, or rather line 25, and on page 40, line 1, and at page 41 you

15 described this group of persons who came on the 28th of March 1999 and you

16 said that they were wearing different uniforms, blue, green, camouflage,

17 that some of them had black bandanas around their heads; is that right?

18 A. Yes, that's right.

19 Q. Beards, mustaches; is that right?

20 A. I don't know. There may have been but I didn't see any with my

21 own eyes.

22 Q. Longish hair, some of them?

23 A. I don't know if they had long hair.

24 Q. You could not see very clearly the insignia they had, right?

25 A. I wasn't able to look at them, get a good look at them.

Page 2325

1 Q. Thank you. Actually, you're not quite certain what unit that was

2 and who that unit belonged to, isn't that right?

3 A. I don't know. They were police, paramilitaries, militaries and

4 they had bandanas on their heads. They were there. I don't know the

5 unit.

6 Q. You will agree with me that your best recollection of these

7 events was in 1999, right? When you made this statement. Isn't that

8 right?

9 A. What do you mean? I saw the events with my own eyes. That's what

10 I said in my statement.

11 Q. No, I'm asking you about 1999, November 1999. That's when you

12 made your statement. You will agree with me that that is when you

13 remembered best; isn't that right? Much better than you can recall today,

14 seven years later?

15 A. Yes, of course I was more clear about -- and I was younger.

16 Q. Thank you. And when you made statements earlier, that is to say

17 in 1999, in 2001, in the proceedings against Slobodan Milosevic on the

18 14th of June 2002 and also in yesterday's addendum, you did not mention

19 the army or anyone else except for what you had stated as stated; isn't

20 that correct?

21 A. Well, what I said before is the same as what I'm saying now. It's

22 the same story.

23 Q. Thank you. Did someone perhaps suggest to you what you should say

24 today in this courtroom before this Trial Chamber?

25 A. No. I don't think these things happen here. Maybe in Serbia,

Page 2326

1 yes.

2 MR. CEPIC: I haven't got any further questions. Thank you.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Cepic.

4 MR. O'SULLIVAN: No questions, Your Honour.


6 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will have some

7 questions, only because of the addendum. Otherwise I had not intended to

8 ask any questions.

9 Cross-examination by Mr. Fila:

10 Q. Mr. Thaqi, My name is Toma Fila and, together with my colleague,

11 Mr. Petrovic, I am Defence counsel for Nikola Sainovic. I would ask you

12 kindly to concentrate only on the BBC and what happened afterwards. I'm

13 not going to ask you any of what happened before that.

14 So you said to us that at one point in time when you returned,

15 journalists came and you went to this place where you participated in the

16 burial of the dead and you realised that the corpses were not there. My

17 first question would be, were you surprised due to the fact that the

18 corpses were not there? In other words, up until that moment, did you not

19 know that the corpses had been removed?

20 A. No. I didn't know.

21 Q. Now, when was it that you first found out, when, at what point in

22 time, did you realise that they had been removed? Exhumed, sorry; not

23 removed, exhumed. I stand corrected.

24 A. I can't tell you the exact date but it was two days after we

25 returned home. There were these people from the BBC. But before them,

Page 2327

1 there were 18 people that came. I don't know whether they were

2 journalists or what they were, and they saw the place that had been

3 bulldozed.

4 Q. Well, that's not an answer to my question. When was it that you

5 personally, Mr. Thaqi, you personally, when did you first find out that

6 something had happened there? Because you said a few moments ago that you

7 did not know until you came to the actual spot that the corpses had been

8 exhumed from the places where you had buried them. You personally.

9 A. I personally went there with the people from the BBC the second

10 day after I returned home, and that's when I saw what had happened.

11 Q. If I understood this correctly, you saw that the corpses were not

12 there where you had helped bury them. When was it that you first found

13 out that somebody had exhumed them? Can you please help me with this

14 because I'm asking this question for the third time and it's the same

15 question.

16 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] When did he personally learn of this?

17 Perhaps we are not understanding each other right.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: He has said to you, Mr. Fila, that it was when he

19 went to the burial ground with the BBC journalists, and he says that was

20 two days --

21 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I understood that.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: And he says that was when he first found out.

23 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Yes. That's when he learned that the

24 corpses were not there. He saw that they were not there. But when did

25 they tell him that the Serbs or whoever had exhumed the bodies and when

Page 2328

1 were they taken wherever? If I followed his statement properly he said

2 that he saw with the BBC journalists for the first time that the corpses

3 were not there. Now, who told him, and when, that the bodies had been

4 exhumed? That's what I'm trying to get at. I mean, if you cannot

5 understand what I'm saying then he's going to have even greater

6 difficulty.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Thaqi, you told us that someone told you that

8 the bodies had been removed by the police and the army.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Just listen to me for a moment. The person who

11 told you that, did that person tell you about it before you visited the

12 site with the BBC or after you had visited the site with the BBC?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After, it was after, or maybe it was

14 three weeks or a month later.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Fila, that answers the question because it

16 means that the first time he was aware of this was when he visited the

17 site, which is what I understood he was saying.

18 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Yes, the BBC. That's when he realised

19 that the people who had been buried were not there. But three weeks later

20 he found out why they were not there, if I understood it correctly this

21 time. I hope that we all agree on that.

22 Now, who said this to him? How they had been exhumed? Who came?

23 When? I mean, okay. I'll ask him.

24 Q. Let me ask you. I'm sorry, I put questions my own way so then I

25 put questions through the Court, through the Judges. Sorry about that. I

Page 2329

1 forgot for a moment that that's not the way you put questions here.

2 All right. I'm asking you now. As far as I understand things,

3 you don't know that man's name or perhaps you forgot it. But all right.

4 Never mind.

5 What was it that he said to you exactly? Who came when?

6 A. This person -- I told you that he told me three weeks later that

7 they were on the mountain and they had seen with their own eyes -- he's an

8 elderly man, he's 72 or 73 years old, and he told me that the bodies were

9 exhumed and this happened on the 28th to the 31st of March, for four days.

10 This is all I know.

11 Q. All right. Further on you said in response to a question put by

12 my learned friend Mr. Hannis that these corpses were taken to Sremska

13 Mitrovic, Batajnica, and some third location that you referred to. How

14 come you know about -- oh, was it Kosovska Mitrovica? All right, Kosovska

15 Mitrovica, Batajnica, and I don't know the third place. How come you know

16 that?

17 A. Well, the KFOR are bringing the bodies from Batajnica, from

18 Mitrovica, from Vushtrri, from all these places, these people that I had

19 helped bury. This is a sure thing. I'm not lying here. And I swore here

20 that I would tell the truth. I have got children, you know.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, that's something -- Mr. Fila, that's something

22 that would need to be proved by some other means, by the Prosecution in

23 this case. And that was fairly plain from the answer he gave about the

24 bodies being taken to these four places. That sort of thing will require

25 other evidence here.

Page 2330

1 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] That's right. That's right. I was

2 just trying to learn how he had learned that the bodies had been returned.

3 I just learned it, and this is the end of my questioning. It was

4 important to find out that it was the KFOR who did it. Thank you.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I say something, Your Honour?

6 JUDGE BONOMY: About what?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I only wanted to say why they took

8 the corpses and sent them to Belgrade and because of that 147 families are

9 suffering to this day. I don't know why they did that. Thank you.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Just give me a moment until I check something.

11 Mr. Hannis, the actual shooting here is alleged to be on the specific day,

12 is it the 28th?

13 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

15 Mr. Sepenuk?

16 MR. SEPENUK: No questions, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

18 Mr. Lukic?

19 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour, I do have a few questions for this

20 witness.

21 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

22 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Thaqi. I hope I will be

23 putting a limited number of questions to you, and I would ask you to give

24 us brief answers, as you have been doing so far, so that we can finish

25 before we adjourn today.

Page 2331

1 Did you mention that during the exhumation of these corpses, there

2 was a shelling?

3 A. Yes. That's what I was told. There was a lot of shelling, yes.

4 Q. Do you know who was shelling that area?

5 A. Well, you know who: The Yugoslav army, because we did not have

6 any such weapons.

7 Q. That's precisely what remained unclear to me. If it was the

8 Serbian authorities who were conducting the exhumation, is it your

9 evidence that those same forces also shelled the location where the

10 exhumation was taking place?

11 A. Yes, yes. The Serbs shelled first, and then exhumed the bodies.

12 Q. Did they shell the area where the bodies were or did they shell

13 the surrounding area, the forest?

14 A. No. All around, not -- not there where the bodies were, no.

15 Q. Thank you. I think that it's much clearer now.

16 A. You're welcome.

17 Q. Now I would like to ask you something about the period of time

18 when you left your village of Broja. Did Saban Draga come to your

19 village? He was a KLA officer who ordered that all able-bodied men be

20 removed from the village, or leave the village.

21 A. I did not see Saban Draga. I have not seen him even later. I did

22 not see him. I have heard about him, yes.

23 Q. Did anyone else from the KLA come to your village and order the

24 population to move to Izbica?

25 A. No. We left ourselves because they were shelling. That's what

Page 2332

1 they used to do. They shelled first and the population left.

2 Q. We don't have the relevant document here, how we received a chart

3 from the OTP. It's ERN number is 00763607 to 00763595. This is a

4 statement given by Refki Thaqi, born on the 2nd of May 1961. In his

5 statement he describes the departure from the village of Broja. I will be

6 reading the statement in English to make sure that you receive an accurate

7 translation. "The witness, his brother Thaqi, Lufti, and his uncle Thaqi,

8 Dzafer, went to a hill above Izbica called Kodra e Elezit to observe Serb

9 forces coming from different directions and saw KLA fighting the Serb

10 forces. On 24 March, 1999, Draga Saban, KLA officer, informed the people

11 that the young men should leave Izbica for Tushile."

12 Do you know Mr. Refki Thaqi?

13 A. I know him very well. He was not there present at the Izbica

14 incident. He is young. He is now about 33 or 34 years old. I don't know

15 who he gave the statement to because I don't think it's true.

16 Q. Thank you, Mr. Thaqi.

17 There is another document contained in this chart. It comes from

18 the ICG database, which was discussed here at length. It's marked

19 A/0717. We don't know who provided this statement, but in it, it says as

20 follows: "About 30.000 [Realtime transcript read in error, "3.000"]

21 persons were in that place during heavy fighting went on between KLA and

22 Serb forces."

23 A. Do you mean in Izbica?

24 Q. That's how I understand this document. [Interpretation] Yes,

25 that's how I understand this document?

Page 2333

1 A. No, no, that's not true at all. I don't think this is correct at

2 all.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic, who was the number of persons you read

4 out?

5 MR. LUKIC: 30.000.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: I thought so. The transcript reflects 3.000. It

7 should be 30.000.

8 MR. LUKIC: Yes, thank you, Your Honour. And this statement --

9 this document has a date, 28th of March 1999 and the description says,

10 Izbica in the municipality of Srbica and the village of Azrim [phoen]. So

11 obviously, people who were displaced from Azrim to Izbica, not

12 particularly from Broja. But anyways, thank you.

13 Q. [Interpretation] When you spoke about the reason for leaving your

14 home in 1998 - I apologise, 1999 - you said that it was due to the fact

15 that there were massacres in Qires, Prekaz, and Likoshane and that that

16 happened in early May 1998. Also in Recak [phoen].

17 A. On the 15th in Recak, people were killed.

18 Q. But when giving explanation you said that you were prompted to do

19 that by the conflict in Prekaz, Likoshane, and Qires. That's all you

20 said.

21 A. Look, I will tell you how it was. And that is true. On the 15th

22 of January 1998 -- now I forget, I'm sorry. I -- it was on the 28th in

23 Qires, and Likoshan, on the 5th in Prekaz and Broja and we were attacked

24 immediately and this is all true.

25 Q. Thank you.

Page 2334

1 JUDGE BONOMY: The dates you've given for events in Qires,

2 Likoshan, Prekaz, and Broja, which month are you talking of?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The month was January, January.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: And the year?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A walker [as interpreted] was in

6 1998. 15th of January. 28th. As I said, in Qires and Likoshan on a

7 Saturday and a Sunday but this was on -- this was in February 1998. Then

8 5th of March in Prekaz and Broja. And we left.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Lukic?

10 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.

11 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Thaqi, in your statement given on the 9th of

12 November 1999, English version page 3, paragraph 7, Albanian version page

13 4, paragraph 3, B/C/S version, page 3, paragraph 8, or rather paragraph 6,

14 you describe the people who asked money from you, up to 1.000 German

15 marks, in order to ensure that your homes and tractors were safe. Then

16 you describe them as people wearing green/olive camouflage uniforms and

17 that across their chests and shoulders they had ammunition belts. And

18 then you pointed to a uniform when being questioned by investigator

19 Stewart; however, we didn't see that in the courtroom. Thus I'd like to

20 ask you whether this description, is that of paramilitaries.

21 A. You're confusing me. Well, I think I explained this once already.

22 Q. So this description refers to the paramilitaries as well, right?

23 A. Yes, yes.

24 Q. Thank you. Do you know anything about the strength of the KLA in

25 Drenica region?

Page 2335

1 A. I don't know how many there were, and I did not pay attention to

2 those issues. However, I can say that I would want them to be as many as

3 possible, and have tanks and the weapons that you had because they were

4 fighting an unequal enemy.

5 Q. Even though you do not know about the strength of the KLA units.

6 Tell us, do you know whether these forces were normally deployed

7 either in villages or in the immediate vicinity of villages?

8 A. They moved around everywhere, in the whole of Kosova but they did

9 not have heavy weaponry.

10 MR. LUKIC: Bear with me one moment, Your Honours.

11 Q. [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Thaqi. I have no further

12 questions for you?

13 A. You're welcome.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis?

15 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

16 Re-examination by Mr. Hannis:

17 Q. Mr. Thaqi, with regard to the policeman or the paramilitary who

18 took you and the other 32 men off before shooting you, do you recall what

19 kind of uniform he was wearing? What colour?

20 A. Yes, he was wearing a grass colour, greenish, it was a

21 paramilitary. That's what I said at the time and that's what I say now,

22 it was a paramilitary. He was about 40, 42 years old, a bit fat and

23 short, stubby.

24 Q. Was his uniform the same as or different from the uniform that the

25 man you described as the commander was wearing?

Page 2336

1 A. No. I think it was different.

2 Q. And Mr. Fila asked you a question about the exhumation of the

3 bodies. On page 73 of the transcript, at lines 6 to 7, I believe it says

4 you were told between the 28th and 31st of March is when the bodies why

5 exhumed. Now, we know that can't be correct because you told us that the

6 bodies were buried on the 31st of March. Can you help us with that? What

7 date were you told that the bodies had been exhumed? Sometime between the

8 31st of March and the 14th or 15th of June.

9 A. I was told that on the 28th of May - not March, May - and it was

10 a -- four days, it was a Sunday, Monday, Tuesday. I was quite surprised.

11 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Fila, sorry.

13 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] You noticed me too late. This is an

14 example of impermissible leading question. I asked the witness, he gave

15 me his answer, and now the Prosecutor is putting leading questions to him

16 so that he would give a time frame that suits the Prosecution. That's all

17 I had to say. Thank you.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: And what do you say was the leading question?

19 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] When he said, first the Prosecutor said

20 that it couldn't have been between the 28th and 31st March because this is

21 when they were buried, and that was fine. And then he said it would have

22 to be between this and that date, and that wasn't all right.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: But the answer --

24 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] The question should have been: "When

25 was it?" That should have been the question both in civil law system and

Page 2337

1 in common law system. That's how the question should be phrased. He

2 perhaps could have said that I accept that it couldn't have been on the

3 28th if they were buried on the 31st.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It wasn't March, it was May, the

5 28th of May, four days.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: We have that.

7 Mr. Fila, the parameters that were given to the witness were

8 between the 31st of March and the 14th or 15th of June; now, in our

9 opinion, that is not leading. That's stating the obvious, and the

10 witness's answer, we will have to evaluate whether it was spontaneous or

11 whether it was in any way prompted by the question. That's a matter we'll

12 take particular account of when we come to assess the evidence. Thank

13 you.

14 Mr. Hannis, do you have any other questions.

15 MR. HANNIS: Just one, Your Honour.

16 Q. Mr. Thaqi in some of your documents your name is spelled in

17 English T-h-a-c-i and in some places T-h-a-q-i. Can you help us with

18 which one it should be?

19 A. Thaqi with a Q.

20 MR. HANNIS: Thank you very much. No further questions.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Hannis.

23 Well, Mr. Thaqi, that completes your evidence. Thank you for

24 coming again to the Tribunal to give it. You're now free to leave.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much that you are

Page 2338

1 taking care of justice so that such events will not be repeated.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: And in fact, if you just sit there for a moment

3 while we adjourn the Court then the usher will show you out in a moment or

4 two. We'll now adjourn until -- sorry, Mr. Hannis?

5 MR. HANNIS: May I mention to the Defence counsel one matter

6 concerning scheduling? Because we are at the end of the week, we have

7 three witnesses remaining. Mustafa Draga will be the next witness

8 tomorrow morning. Because of schedules we may -- we are considering

9 reversing the order of the next two witnesses.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, please --

11 MR. HANNIS: And we will advise them by e-mail tonight.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Please grab them before they leave and tell them

13 the position, Mr. Hannis. I suppose it's just possible that we can be

14 slightly more flexible tomorrow. We are sitting in the morning. So we

15 will be adjourning until 9.00 army. Mr. Aleksic?

16 MR. LUKIC: Sorry, Your Honour, for holding you longer but we

17 kindly ask the Prosecutor not to change the order of the witnesses because

18 tomorrow we start in the morning and the whole this week we had the change

19 in the schedule so it's very hard for us to follow because we have very

20 limited resources. In every team we have two people, so we exchange and

21 Mr. Ivetic had three witnesses in a row and now I have three witnesses in

22 a row. So it's very hard for us. So we would kindly ask the Prosecutor

23 to stick with the order he gave us before. Thank you.

24 MR. HANNIS: It's also hard for to us stick it to the order when

25 estimates about how long cross exam will be vary wildly from what actually

Page 2339

1 happens.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could I ask a question?

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. Since I suspect it's going to lighten our

4 evening, yes, please.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just wanted to say something.

6 You've got a lot of people here from Serbia, but you should bring a lot

7 more, all those criminals who committed those crimes.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: That's not something for us to determine or for you

9 to say here, Mr. Thaqi. The platter is in the hands of the Prosecution

10 who direct the proceedings and any comment you wish to make about that

11 should be directed to the Office of the Prosecutor.

12 Mr. Hannis, you've told us who the next witness would be, that's

13 Mustafa Draga. What is the change that you're proposing?

14 MR. HANNIS: We propose to move Fedrije Xhafa to after the other

15 name that I have even more difficult time pronouncing, the witness

16 Gerxhaliu.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: So it becomes 5, 7, and 6 in the order; is that

18 right?

19 MR. HANNIS: Yes. And, Your Honour, I'm willing to keep the order

20 the same but the difficulty I have is in proofing the witness today.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: But that's not a problem for Mr. Lukic because he's

22 up for these three witnesses, I gather.

23 MR. LUKIC: But, Your Honour, we would prefer to have Vucitrn in

24 the next week because we have to do the complete analysis for Vucitrn

25 municipality and we already calculated that it should fall in the next

Page 2340

1 week.

2 MR. HANNIS: The two I'm proposing to swap are both Vucitrn

3 witnesses.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: So there we are. You can discuss this further if

5 you wish after we adjourn and we will resume tomorrow at 9.00.

6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m.,

7 to be reconvened on Friday, the 25th day of August,

8 2006, at 9.00 a.m.