Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2766

1 Tuesday, 5 September 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 3.33 p.m.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, let me first of all apologise to everyone

7 for the late start this afternoon caused by the cancellation of my flight

8 back here, which I regret was unavoidable. We will, as a result, sit from

9 now until 5.00, and then from 5.30 until 7.00.

10 Good afternoon, Mr. Shaqiri.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Would you now make the solemn declaration, please,

13 by reading aloud the document which will be placed before you.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I solemnly declare that I

15 will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Please be seated.

17 Just one thing I'd like to say to you before your evidence

18 starts, Mr. Shaqiri. We've been experiencing some difficulty in the

19 presentation of evidence here because witnesses often want to give an

20 account of things that are not necessarily the things that the Tribunal and

21 the lawyers here are most interested in. So it's very important if your

22 evidence is to have its maximum impact that you pay very close attention to

23 the questions that are asked and confine the answer you give to the point

24 that the question deals with. I hope you understand what I'm saying, that

25 we want to concentrate on -- we want to concentrate on the issues that the

Page 2767

1 parties here consider to be the important ones. And to enable us to cover

2 as many of these as possible, it's vital that the answers given are

3 directed to the point that's asked about.

4 So with that introduction we'll move straight to the questions,

5 and the first counsel to ask questions of you will be for the Prosecution,

6 Mr. Hannis.

7 Mr. Hannis.

8 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour. I would indicate for the

9 record that this is a viva voce witness, that his testimony, Your Honour,

10 relates to paragraphs 72(i) and 73 of the indictment relating to

11 deportation and forced transfers, relating to Gnjilane or Gjilan

12 municipality.

13 WITNESS: ABDYLHAQIM SHAQIRI

14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 Examination by Mr. Hannis:

16 Q. Sir, could you state our first and last name and spell it for the

17 court reporter?

18 A. My name is Abdylhaqim Shaqiri.

19 Q. Thank you. And, sir, I just want to recite some biographical

20 data and will you advise me whether or not this is correct. You are a

21 Kosovo Albanian, born in Prilepnica village in Gjilan municipality in

22 Kosovo in 1949?

23 A. 1949.

24 Q. Thank you. And, sir, I understand you've lived there most all

25 your life up until 1999; is that correct?

Page 2768

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. I understand further that you're married with four children, two

3 sons and two daughters?

4 A. Yes, yes.

5 Q. And could you tell the Court what your current job or occupation

6 is.

7 A. I am an imam in Prilepnica mosque.

8 Q. And how long have you been the imam there?

9 A. From 1996.

10 Q. And I understand that that's somewhat of a family tradition in

11 your family; is that correct?

12 A. Yes, we have this for generations.

13 Q. Your father and grandfather were both imams in that area?

14 A. Yes, they've been imams from the time of Turkey.

15 Q. Sir, what area did you cover as imam? Was it just the village of

16 Prilepnica?

17 A. Part of the village of Prilepnica there is Kmetofc, Verbica

18 village covered by this mosque, another village Kosaca, and the people who

19 live in Poropotova, part of Prilepnica.

20 Q. Briefly could you describe what are your duties as imam in that

21 area?

22 A. We carry out religious duties as imams. We perform our duty in

23 the mosque during the prayer, and then when someone dies we escort the

24 coffin to the cemetery. We teach students who come to the mosque. We

25 perform the marriage ritual and baptise the newly born and other religious

Page 2769

1 rites as we are asked for by the population.

2 Q. Thank you. Now, when you were a young man in Kosovo, did you

3 have to perform military duty, mandatory military service?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. When did you do that?

6 A. I went to the army in 1968.

7 Q. And what branch or what type of military work did you do in 1968?

8 A. I was in the unit called the First War Echelon or the 20th Regiment,

9 that is the 20th Gardijski puk or Prvi eselon rata, thatís what it was called.

10 I was in the artillery branch in Valeve, specialized in 76 mm cannons.

11 I was in Titoís Guard at the time, one of Titoís soldiers.

12 Q. And how long did you serve?

13 A. For 18 months.

14 Q. After that, did you continue to serve in the reserve of the JNA?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. For how long?

17 A. Until 1985 or 1986, for some 15 years.

18 Q. And what rank did you achieve?

19 A. A surgeon [as interpreted] -- first class.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Correction.

21 MR. HANNIS: Sorry, the transcript says "surgeon" --

22 JUDGE BONOMY: I think it was an interpreter's correction to first class.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, private first class I was.

24 MR. HANNIS:

25 Q. Thank you, thank you. Now, could you tell the Court, please, how

Page 2770

1 big was your village at Prilepnica, approximately how many houses and how

2 many people?

3 A. Our village has around 350, 360 households and about 3.000

4 inhabitants.

5 Q. And what was the ethnicity of the people who lived in your

6 village?

7 A. Before the war there were these 350, 360 Albanian families that I

8 mentioned. There were also about 30 Roma families and some five or six

9 Serbian families.

10 MR. HANNIS: Now, could we show the witness a map, Exhibit P36.

11 Q. While that's coming up on your screen, Mr. Shaqiri, I would like

12 to ask you: Were you aware of when the NATO bombing began in 1999?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. From the time that bombing started until you left, sometime in

15 April of 1999, was there any NATO bombing in your village?

16 A. No, there wasn't.

17 MR. HANNIS: Now, if we could enlarge that map a bit on the area

18 slightly north of Gjilan. One more, please, thank you.

19 Q. Now, sir, on the monitor can you see your village on that map?

20 And there's a pen there I'll have the usher hand you.

21 A. This is where it is.

22 Q. You can actually draw on the screen. If you draw a circle around

23 your village of Prilepnica.

24 A. [Marks].

25 Q. And could you draw a circle around the other villages that you

Page 2771

1 covered as the imam. You mentioned them before.

2 A. Yes, Kmetofc, bordering Ropotove. This is where the Albanian

3 Muslim families lived, and then there is Verbica and Kosaca.

4 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

5 Could we take a screen shot of that and give it the next IC

6 number, please?

7 THE REGISTRAR: That will be marked IC28, Your Honours.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

9 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

10 Q. Now, Mr. Shaqiri, before -- before the NATO bombing started, had

11 you had any problems or violence in your village?

12 A. No.

13 Q. And before the 6th of April, 1999, had there been any significant

14 presence of either the VJ or Serbian police in your village?

15 A. No, there wasn't any.

16 Q. I then would like to direct your attention to the 6th of April,

17 1999. Did you hear or see anything unusual on that day?

18 A. That day I was at my mother's visiting my younger brother. This

19 is where the mosque is. It is about 1 kilometre away from my house. I

20 dined there and at 8.10 I heard gun-fire from all sides in Prilepnica. It

21 struck a lot of fear among us because the village is situated in a canyon.

22 And people started to flee their homes and take to the mountainsides.

23 Q. What did you do when you heard the gun-fire?

24 A. For the moment I was stunned, and after talking with some of my

25 relatives I decided to go in the direction of the southern part of the

Page 2772

1 village from where the gun-shot was heard. I put on my imam uniform and I

2 was walking on the main road, and after 5 or 600 metres I ran into a

3 soldier who was holding two hostages, Nazim Xhelil, now retiree, and Shelik

4 Shaqiri who was a teacher of physical training. Both of them were being

5 held in the middle of the road. I approached them. That soldier asked --

6 stopped me and asked me who I was. I introduced myself to him, and then I

7 asked him why do we hear gun-shots? He replied in this way: We have

8 received information that there is KLA presence in the village and that the

9 village has to be emptied in order for us to fight the KLA soldiers. I

10 assured them that there was no KLA presence in the village, but

11 nevertheless he ordered me to tell the population to leave their homes. I

12 went back to the mosque and used the loudspeakers of the minaret.

13 Q. Let me stop you for a minute and ask you a few questions to go

14 through this. You say you put on your imam uniform before you went in the

15 direction of the shooting. What -- what does your imam uniform look like?

16 A. It is a similar uniform like the one you are wearing, a long

17 robe, dark robe, and I put on a hat, not the imam's hat, but a white cap.

18 Q. Okay.

19 A. Usually worn by those who go to Haxh.

20 Q. And you say when you approached the area where you heard the

21 shooting, you saw a soldier who had two men you described by name as

22 hostages at gun-point there. Was it just one soldier?

23 A. There was only this person who was holding the two hostages. A

24 little bit further away where the centre of the village is, there was a

25 group of 10 or 15, 12 or 15 people who fired now and again in the air just

Page 2773

1 to strike fear among the population.

2 Q. Were this other group soldiers as well?

3 A. Yes, yes, they were soldiers.

4 Q. How were they dressed? What kind of uniforms did they have?

5 A. Most of them had similar -- the same uniform, one colour uniform

6 SMB olive-green-grey uniform. There were one or two who were wearing

7 camouflage uniform, green and blue uniform, camouflage.

8 Q. Is that green and blue mixed together or some green and some

9 blue?

10 A. Green and yellow, lemon yellow. That was prevalent. There were

11 other colours, but these were most striking.

12 Q. Did you see any kind of insignia or badges or markings of rank on

13 any of these uniforms?

14 A. No, no, they didn't have any rankings that I saw. The soldier --

15 this soldier who was holding the two people ransom in a way had a cap -

16 bandanna --

17 THE INTERPRETER: Correction.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- on his head.

19 MR. HANNIS:

20 Q. And can you tell us anything about the weapons that these men

21 had?

22 A. Usually they carried automatic rifles, Kalashnikovs as they

23 called them. There were other weapons, but most of the weapons that I

24 could see were automatic rifles.

25 Q. You told us before when you were describing this that you spoke

Page 2774

1 with the soldier who was holding the two men hostage. What language did he

2 speak to you in and you speak to him in?

3 A. In Serbo-Croatian.

4 Q. You speak and understand that language?

5 A. Yes, I do.

6 Q. In addition to Serbo-Croat and Albanian, do you speak or

7 understand any other languages?

8 A. I understand some Arabic, but I have forgotten a lot.

9 Q. And when and how did you learn Serbo-Croatian?

10 A. All my life.

11 Q. Now, you mentioned you spoke to the man who was holding those two

12 prisoners and he indicated that they were looking for KLA in the village.

13 Is that correct?

14 A. That's correct.

15 Q. Is he the only one you spoke with?

16 A. Yes, for the moment he was the only one.

17 Q. And I'm sorry, when I stopped you before, I think you had said

18 that you went to make an announcement to the village. Why did you do that?

19 A. He ordered me to do that, to tell the people to leave the village

20 for them, as they told me, to be able to fight the KLA, as they alleged,

21 which in fact did not exist in the village. So in the midst of fire when I

22 started to tell the people: Attention please, attention please, in the

23 microphone, the Hoxha or the imam of the village is talking to you, all the

24 fire stopped. For them to leave the village and to take to the streets. I

25 repeated this message seven or eight times maybe. The people heard me

Page 2775

1 attentively and left their houses and gathered on both roads of the

2 village, one on the east and one on the western part of the village,

3 because the village is divided in two by the river. On the western part of

4 the village, I went there, too. I was heading the crowd of people going in

5 that direction, in the direction of the west. And then I went back to the

6 same soldier, the one who was holding the two people hostage.

7 Q. And what -- did you speak to him again?

8 A. Yes, I did. I asked him to talk to the officers who had given

9 this order.

10 Q. What officers would those be?

11 A. For the moment I didn't know who they were or who he was, but we

12 walked together with this soldier for some 200 metres and we arrived at the

13 end of the village. And there I met three officers. They were dressed in

14 camouflage uniform like the one I described earlier, and they were carrying

15 only pistols. And their caps, they were carrying them on their shoulder.

16 Q. Did you speak with them?

17 A. Yes. The first -- the first words we exchanged were -- the

18 soldier was the one who addressed the officers and I am quoting his words.

19 Q. And Mr. Shaqiri, I see now you appear to have some notes in your

20 hand. Can you tell us what those are?

21 A. It's nothing much to speak of. It's just the order of events as

22 you are asking me, just some points, that is the contact with three

23 officers is one of the note. And then I realised that they were holding

24 100, 150 citizens hostages. This is something which I learned later.

25 Q. Let me ask you --

Page 2776

1 A. I can leave them aside if you want.

2 Q. Yes, that's fine. If at some point in time you think it would be

3 helpful to refer to your notes, that's fine, if you'll just let us know

4 when you're referring to your notes. Okay?

5 A. No problem. I don't need them anyway.

6 Q. But if at some point in time there comes a need, just let us know

7 and you can have a look and we'll know when you're using those.

8 Now, the three men that you spoke to that you understood were

9 officers, did they have any kind of rank or insignia on their uniforms?

10 A. No. They didn't have ranks. They only had the military belt

11 worn by regular police --

12 THE INTERPRETER: Correction.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- soldiers and the pistol. Their

14 uniform was camouflage one, as I described earlier, green and yellow

15 camouflage uniform.

16 MR. HANNIS:

17 Q. And in what language did you converse with them?

18 A. In Serbo-Croatian.

19 Q. Of the three, was there one who seemed to be in charge?

20 A. Yes, the one in the middle.

21 Q. Had you ever seen any of these men before?

22 A. No.

23 Q. What did they tell you they were there for, if they did?

24 A. Initially they threatened me and said that they were going to

25 kill me first -- or rather, they were going to execute me first. And they

Page 2777

1 were trying for the firing coming from the eastern, northern, and western

2 part of the village to claim as if it was coming from the KLA, that the KLA

3 was firing.

4 Q. And were you aware of any KLA in your village or in the -- the

5 immediate area around your village?

6 A. There was never a KLA presence in Anamorave.

7 Q. And that name that you've just given, it appears on the

8 transcript, I don't recognise. Could you say it again and describe what

9 region it refers to?

10 A. It is the east-southern part of Kosovo. It includes Vitir

11 Gjilan, Kamenica, up to Serbia, namely Bujanovc, Presheve. This is what we

12 call Anamorave. In B/C/S it would be ...

13 Q. Thank you. Now, you said the commander threatened to kill you.

14 Did he say how you could avoid that happening?

15 A. While the firing was going on, firing from different weapons,

16 they were trying to convince me that this was firing from Skorpion or

17 Chinese-make rifles. And I explained to them in this way. I told them:

18 Look, I'm not an expert in equipment or weapons. There is no KLA presence

19 in our village. And I tried, actually, to warn them not to shoot in that

20 direction because about 500 metres further was the village of Kmetofc where

21 Serbs lived. We were surrounded on all sides by Serb-populated villages.

22 The entire northern part and north-eastern part is covered by Musgova,

23 village on the west is Kuvca, again a Serbian village. In south-west,

24 again another Serbian village, so we are surrounded by seven Serbian

25 villages. This is what I told them: If you continue to shoot in this

Page 2778

1 manner, you will even cause harm to your own population, the Serbian

2 population.

3 Q. And how far was your village from the border with Serbia?

4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note --

5 MR. HANNIS: [Previous translation continues]...

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Bujanovc is 30 kilometres far from

7 Gjilan and from my village 35 kilometres.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, the last part of the

9 previous answer given by the witness was: "And blame it on the Albanians."

10 MR. HANNIS: Okay. Thank you.

11 Q. So obviously they didn't execute you because you're here with us

12 today. What happened after that discussion?

13 A. Later on one of the officers, about 42 or 43 years old, he took

14 me aside and we spoke, only the two of us.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Just before you proceed further, Mr. Shaqiri, I'm

16 confused about a reference here in the transcript to Bujanovc. Can you

17 clarify that for me, Mr. Hannis, how that fits?

18 MR. HANNIS: We can.

19 Q. Can you tell us where the town of village of Bujanovc is located?

20 A. [No interpretation].

21 Q. Is that in Kosovo?

22 A. No, Bujanovc is on the border. It's the first town in Serbia.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: I now understand. Thank you. And I'm sorry to

24 have interrupted you, Mr. Shaqiri. If you can take up where you left off

25 there, and you were telling us about speaking to this one officer who was

Page 2779

1 42 or 43 years old.

2 MR. HANNIS:

3 Q. What did the two of you talk about?

4 A. His nickname was Russ. I heard the other officers call him Russ.

5 He was not Russian by origin, but this was just his nickname. So I asked

6 him not to make us move from the village because the population was mainly

7 unemployed and they were tied to their homes. I told him that we had never

8 experienced any problems in the past, so this is what he told me: "I see

9 you're an honourable man. An order has come from Belgrade. People must be

10 moved out of Prilepnica. If you have any wits about you, you should flee

11 to one of the neighbouring villages."

12 So he took me inside his military vehicle, in the Pinzgauer.

13 There was his driver as well. And from there we went together to the place

14 where the population was gathered. With us this officer nicknamed Russ

15 also came. The western part of the village had been plundered. Some

16 people were even beaten. Their documents were seized from them, and one of

17 the co-habitants from the village told me what had happened. The officer

18 asked me: What is this person saying? So I told him what the villager

19 said. The officer then ordered for the documents to be given back to the

20 citizens.

21 Q. And did the soldiers do that?

22 A. They just threw them near a wall. That's where they threw these

23 documents. I went to the place where the population was, and this officer

24 and the soldiers were also there present.

25 Q. About how many soldiers were with the officer and you when you

Page 2780

1 went to where the people were gathered?

2 A. It was me, the officer, and the driver in the Pinzgauer, while

3 there -- there was a group of 20 to 30 soldiers. They were scattered into

4 groups, because the population was not moved out from the village entirely,

5 it was stopped on the road.

6 Q. Were the people stopped on the road, were they in cars? Were

7 they on foot? What were they doing?

8 A. They were in cars and also on foot.

9 Q. When you had earlier, pursuant to the order you'd been given,

10 gone to the mosque and made an announcement to the people, had you told

11 them where they should go?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What did you tell them?

14 A. I just told the people to come out on the roads, to go together

15 to the southern part of the village on a field because the army was in the

16 village. But the army actually stopped the population on the road inside

17 the village.

18 Q. What happened next?

19 A. While I was there present, they took a vehicle from a villager

20 and also another four vehicles from other villagers. I was surprised and

21 looked at the officer because that's how they introduced, they said they

22 were regular army.

23 Q. Now, who said they were regular army and when did they tell you

24 that?

25 A. When I spoke to these three officers in the beginning, they

Page 2781

1 introduced themselves as follows: Listen, Hoxha, we are a regular army.

2 The bombing has started and we will defend our country at any cost.

3 Q. Now, before -- well, now when you're gathered on the road where

4 the soldiers have stopped the people, what happened next? Did anyone stay

5 in the village, return to the village, go somewhere else? What happened?

6 A. While we were on the road, there was the Albanian population and

7 the Roma population. We were all there.

8 Q. How about the -- you mentioned I think a few Serb families in

9 your village. Were they present?

10 A. No. The Serb families were in the beginning of the village, on

11 the western part of the village. A platoon had penetrated the village from

12 that side without even knowing that what population lived there. They

13 nearly killed a Serbian woman who was in her courtyard. She then

14 introduced herself, told them that she was a Serb. They didn't believe her

15 right away. The road coming from the west of the village is about 50

16 metres away from the place that I was speaking about. After they had taken

17 these vehicles, they were firing in the air and they were actually happy

18 that the vehicles were filled up. So while they were firing in the air,

19 the part of the soldiers that were just near the place where I was started

20 firing, too. Somebody could have just gotten killed, but fortunately or

21 unfortunately there was an iron gate nearby. And while they were firing

22 from an automatic rifle, a Serbian soldier got injured. They administered

23 first aid to him. I was just 2 metres away. I asked the soldier: Who

24 inflicted this injury on you? How come you're wounded? And he just simply

25 answered: By ricochet. So the officer nicknamed Russ and some others took

Page 2782

1 this soldier in the same Pinzgauer and told the other soldiers to withdraw.

2 They set off in the direction of Gjilan and we remained in the village. It

3 was necessary for us to report this to the police or other authority

4 because we didn't want to move Rexhep Medeti and Mr. Bajrami --

5 Q. Let me stop you there for a minute. You said it was necessary to

6 report because you didn't want to move. Before the soldiers left, had the

7 officers or any of the soldiers given you further instructions on what you

8 were supposed to do after they left?

9 A. I think I mentioned it earlier that the order was for the entire

10 village to move out in the direction of Ferizaj in two hours.

11 Q. And you say -- you said just before I asked you that question

12 that you didn't want to move. So you sought help or permission from some

13 other authority to not have to do that?

14 A. We tried to establish contact with the police in the town, with

15 the chief of the police, and we also tried to contact a local Serb, Vlado

16 Denic, who was the deputy director of the hospital. And with his mediation

17 we hoped to get somewhere else.

18 Q. Let me ask you a couple questions about that. Do you know who

19 the chief of police was in -- well, in Gjilan, I guess, at that time?

20 A. Dragan was the chief of police of the police. He is from

21 Ranilluga, Dragan Peric, namely, who was a very good man and an honourable

22 citizen.

23 Q. He was a Serb?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And the other name you mentioned, the deputy director of the

Page 2783

1 hospital, Vlado Denic, he was a Serb?

2 A. Yes, he was a Serb, too, but he was from my village.

3 Q. And why did you think he might be able to help you? Was there

4 something about his position as deputy director of the hospital?

5 A. Yes. It was because of his position and we thought that by

6 contacting him we might not move from the village. And even if we didn't

7 manage to contact the chief of the police, we wanted to contact his

8 brother, Bora Denic.

9 Q. How far was Gjilan from your village?

10 A. 6 kilometres.

11 Q. When you were given the direction to leave within two hours, were

12 you told anything about what would happen at the end of the deadline if you

13 had not complied?

14 A. They said that the following day at 12.00 they were going to lay

15 mines in the village, that that was their order, and that they were going

16 to mine the dam as well because there is a dam in the village. The order

17 came from above and that it was necessary for them to carry it out. They

18 did not threaten to kill us, no, they didn't do this.

19 Q. Who went to town to try and talk to the chief of police or Vlado

20 Denic?

21 A. Demush Bajrami and Rexhep Mehmeti, Korolube Deniqi [phoen], his

22 pseudonym was Goxhe [phone]. He was wearing a military uniform, a

23 camouflage one, and carrying a Kalashnikov.

24 Q. I'm sorry, who was wearing this uniform?

25 A. Gorulub Denic, a.k.a. Goce, he was a Serb from my village, who

Page 2784

1 was part of the army that had had began the shooting at 8.00 a.m.

2 Q. Okay. And he had not left with the other -- with the rest of the

3 soldiers?

4 A. When the other soldiers withdrew, he went to his house.

5 Q. Were there any other Serbs from your village who had on the same

6 uniform as these soldiers and participated with them during that day, or

7 was he the only one?

8 A. It was only him on that day.

9 Q. Was he related to the Vlado Denic who was the deputy director of

10 the hospital?

11 A. Yes, they are part of the same family.

12 Q. So he was part of the delegation that went to -- to Gjilan to see

13 if you could get some relief from this deadline at --

14 A. Yes, yes.

15 Q. How long were they gone, approximately?

16 A. The hospital you mean?

17 Q. No, how long were the men who went to town that -- I think you

18 named three men that went to town to try and get some relief. How long

19 were they gone?

20 A. For half an hour, 20 minutes, half an hour maximum.

21 Q. And did all three of them come back?

22 A. I was with them, too.

23 Q. Okay. So four of you went to town?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And what happened when you got there?

Page 2785

1 A. The military guards who were standing guard duty in front of the

2 hospital did not allow us to go in, but with Goce's help, he told them that

3 we were with him. We managed to go in. We met with Vlado. Vlada was also

4 surprised to hear what had happened, and we actually did not allow him to

5 go back to his office. We took him with us, to help us, and to come with

6 us either to Peric, the chief of the police, or to Bora, his brother.

7 Q. Now, Bora is whose brother?

8 A. Vlado's brother.

9 Q. Okay. And what position did he hold?

10 A. Vlada was a member of the military staff in Gjilan.

11 Q. Vlada was or Bora?

12 A. Vlada was in the hospital, deputy director, while his brother,

13 Bora, was a member of the military staff in Gjilan.

14 Q. And by "military staff," are you referring to the VJ or something

15 else?

16

17 A. Yes, the Yugoslav army was there in our country. There were no

18 other formations at that time.

19 Q. Okay. Did you manage to see the chief of police?

20 A. One of the officers who were in my village, he had seen us while

21 we were in the vehicle on the way to the hospital, and he had followed us.

22 Before we left the hospital yard, this officer with his soldiers encircled

23 us. They had their guns pointed at us. He addressed the -- these persons

24 and said ...

25 Q. And said what?

Page 2786

1 A. "Where are you taking this man?"

2 They meant where were they taking me, why they were holding me.

3 Q. Who answered and what did --

4 A. And to this Redzep replied: We wanted to go to the police to

5 report what had happened -- what has happened in our village. The officer

6 then said: There is no police here, no army. I am everything here.

7 Q. Now, which officer was this? Was this the one that was nicknamed

8 Russ or one of the other three?

9 A. No, it was another officer, not the Russ.

10 Q. Was he one of the three who had been in your village earlier in

11 the day?

12 A. Yes, exactly, one of the three officers who had been in my

13 village. He had a moustache. He was about 50 years old, approximately

14 1.75 metres tall. Then the officer turned to me and said: Have you got

15 your orders? And I replied: Yes. And he asked: What was the order? And

16 I said to him that we have to move in two hours, at least those who are in

17 the village, while those who are out to their works, they have to leave the

18 village by 12.00 the next day. Then he addressed the other persons and

19 said to them: Do you hear this? Do you hear what he is saying? And then

20 he asked Vlado: Who are you? Vlado introduced himself; he said he was the

21 deputy director of the hospital. And -- I'll execute you on the spot.

22 Vlada is a civilised person and he turned to me and said: Shaqiri, you

23 have to obey the order. We went back to the village --

24 MR. ACKERMAN: [Previous translation continues]...

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ackerman.

Page 2787

1 MR. ACKERMAN: I -- I don't know what happened. I don't know if

2 it's a mistake or whatever. The witness is going along talking and the

3 translation is going along and if you start looking at 22, line 5, where

4 are you. Vlado introduced himself. He said he was the deputy director of

5 the hospital. And then a different voice, translation comes in and says:

6 I'll execute you on the spot. And then it goes to the other voice and

7 says: Vlada is a civilised person and he turned to me and said. I don't

8 know how it got in the middle there but I don't think it belongs there.

9 I'm not sure the witness even said that.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, the witness interjected

11 that in Serbo-Croat.

12 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you.

13 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

14 Q. Mr. Shaqiri, then Vlado told you that you needed to obey the

15 order and you went back to the village. That was you and your original

16 group of three that were with you?

17 A. Yes, the four of us.

18 Q. What happened when you got back to the village?

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, before you do that I thought perhaps we

20 should clarify this point.

21 Mr. Shaqiri, did you say at one stage just now that someone made

22 the comment: I'll execute you on the spot?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it was the officer who

24 threatened Vlado, the Serbian officer, the one who threatened Vlado in

25 Serbian.

Page 2788

1 JUDGE BONOMY: All right, thank you.

2 Does that clarify it, Mr. Ackerman?

3 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, it does, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

5 MR. ACKERMAN: I thought there was a mistake there, there wasn't.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis.

7 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

8 Q. What happened when you got back to the village?

9 A. Again, through the loud-speakers, we announced that we must leave

10 the village by all means, and after we set out to meet on the main road

11 Gjilan-Bujanovc, the place is called Bunar, maybe it will come up again

12 later on. I was heading the column. I didn't go in the direction of

13 Gjilan and Ferizaj, but took the eastern direction, the opposite side, in

14 the direction of Dobercan village and this road passes -- goes to Kamenice

15 and Bujanovc.

16 Q. Okay. About how many people were in your group or your convoy

17 that left that day?

18 A. At least 3.000 inhabitants, over 400 vehicles.

19 Q. And where was your destination? Where were you leading the group

20 to?

21 A. Initially I wanted to go to Kmetofc, past that village. The

22 Albanian and Serb families in Kmetofc are divided by the road. Among the

23 Serbian families living close by to the road there was a regular Serb army,

24 this is where they were deployed in Kmetofc. We had passed there several

25 times and nothing had happened to us, but that day they had planted mines

Page 2789

1 on part of the road and there was a police first and then military guard in

2 that place. The police looked at the convoy of people and didn't do

3 anything, but soldiers, army soldiers, stopped us.

4 Q. What happened when they stopped you, did you speak with them?

5 A. Yes. They asked us: Why are you leaving, where we were going.

6 And I replied that we have orders from the army to leave the village. And

7 this convoy of people had fled on the orders of the army. The same person,

8 the same military man, showed surprise and he told me: One hears

9 everything these days. He didn't stop me because -- and ask because I said

10 to him that we had orders. And then we continued our way in Dobercan, that

11 is the last village before you go to Gjilan.

12 Q. At this first point where you stopped, you described police and

13 military. What kind of uniforms were the men you described as police

14 wearing?

15 A. They were the road -- traffic police, wearing the usual uniform,

16 blue uniform. And they had white ...

17 Q. They had white -- you were indicating something on your arm --

18 A. White parts on their arm.

19 Q. And the military --

20 A. It's a white cloth with a ribbon -- with elastic that they wear

21 on the arms.

22 Q. Thank you. And you described the military that were there. What

23 kind of uniforms were they wearing?

24 A. The soldiers had olive-green-grey uniforms.

25 Q. Now, from -- from that point, that check-point I guess, where did

Page 2790

1 you go next?

2 A. We stopped at Dobercan village. They had heard what happened in

3 Prilepnica. I talked with my colleague there, with the Hoxha of the

4 village, Muslim priest of the village, who unfortunately on the 15th of

5 June was killed, by some people in uniforms while they were withdrawing

6 from the place, at a very early age of 38.

7 Q. How long did you stay in Dobercan?

8 A. I did my best to distribute -- to spread out the population in

9 the village. I wanted them to go wherever they could to find shelter at

10 this difficult time, but people didn't want us to break and so we wanted to

11 go together everywhere. But 3.000 people was hard to find shelter for in

12 one place. But I had a strong confidence in me to enter the Serbian

13 territory. In the Albanian-inhabited villages I thought to go to Trnovc.

14 Q. And where is Trnovc located?

15 A. It is next to Bujanovc.

16 Q. Is that in Kosovo?

17 A. No, no. It is in Serbia.

18 Q. And did your entire group of 3.000 from your village follow you

19 onward from Dobercan?

20 A. For some 12 or 15, 17 kilometres until we reached the

21 administrative boundary when we entered the Koncul village, but before

22 arriving there at Dhen I Bardhe, the Kamenica police took care of us.

23 Q. How did they --

24 THE INTERPRETER: Correction.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They didn't care of us but they

Page 2791

1 looked after that place that I mentioned. They did the usual -- the

2 routine patrols, stopped cars, tractors, and searched them, the usual

3 police searches.

4 MR. HANNIS:

5 Q. Where did that happen?

6 A. At the triangle of the road that goes from Gjilan to Bujanovc,

7 and then it turns to Fogosh.

8 Q. Is there a village at that location?

9 A. No. Koromjan village inhabited by Serbs is the closest village

10 to that place.

11 MR. HANNIS: If we could put up an exhibit now, it would be 615,

12 which is the Kosovo atlas, and it would be I believe page number 25.

13 Q. Mr. Shaqiri, I want to show you a map that I hope will show some

14 of the places you've just been telling us about that you went to when you

15 left your village of the 6th of April. And from this place where the

16 Kamenica police searched you, where did you go?

17 A. We were stopped there, they stopped us. They asked us, and I

18 answered, as I did to the soldiers in Kmetofc, since in Anamorave in the

19 direction of Dumarovc that was the first convoy of people that was being

20 displaced.

21 MR. HANNIS: If we could enlarge the upper half of that map.

22 Okay. Thank you.

23 Q. Mr. Shaqiri, can you see your village on this map, Prilepnica? I

24 don't know what you have on your monitor --

25 A. I can't see very well. Maybe you should move it a little bit on

Page 2792

1 the right side where Gjilan is. I can see Kmetofc. Here is Prilepnica --

2 Q. [Previous translation continues]... could you put a 1 --

3 A. Yes, if you can enlarge it, it would be better.

4 MR. HANNIS: Can we enlarge it one more time -- oh, I'm sorry --

5 yes, can we enlarge it one more time and I'll have him draw again. I

6 realise that we have to start over. And if we can have Prilepnica sort of

7 in the upper left of the enlargement, I think everything else will be on

8 there that we want.

9 Q. Mr. Shaqiri, we're going to try and enlarge our map one more

10 time. And now if you can start again, and if you could draw a circle

11 around your village and put the number 1 in --

12 A. Yes, now it's clear.

13 Q. The usher will help you.

14 A. Prilepnica is here, number 1.

15 Q. Could you draw a circle around that for me.

16 A. Number 2 is Kmetofc, here.

17 Q. And then show us the second village you went to or the next

18 village you went to?

19 A. Kmetofc, number 2.

20 Q. And from there, you said Dobercan?

21 A. Dobercan.

22 Q. Can you draw a circle around that and put a 3 inside it?

23 A. [Marks].

24 Q. And from Dobercan, where did you go next?

25 A. We went -- we continued our way in the direction of Ranilluga,

Page 2793

1 it's a Serbian village, far from the road, in the direction of Dumarovc [as

2 interpreted]. I can't see it here. Here is Koncul. We came approximately

3 here before going to Bujanovc. We walked some 17 kilometres until here,

4 the place where the road divides to go to Dumarovc, that triangle that I

5 mentioned is not shown here. This is where Dhen I Bardhe is. This is

6 where the regular police was deployed. It used to be there all the time.

7 Q. Let me ask you a couple more questions. From Dobercan did you go

8 past the village of Ranilluga?

9 A. Yes, we passed that and Koromjan.

10 Q. Can you draw a circle around that?

11 A. [Marks].

12 Q. Could you put the number 4 there?

13 A. [Marks].

14 Q. And when you got there, which direction did you go?

15 A. We went in the direction of Koncul to come to Bujanovac.

16 Q. Now, what municipality are Ranilluga and Koromjan in? I see a

17 border there?

18 A. They are in Kamenica.

19 Q. And from Koromjan, you went in the direction of Bujanovc?

20 A. The last village of Gjilan commune is Dobercan and then starts

21 Kamenica.

22 Q. Okay and how far did you get? Did you get all the way to

23 Bujanovac?

24 A. No. Before arriving in Kocul some 4 or 5 kilometres away, here,

25 the police, the local police came and went before the convoy and stopped

Page 2794

1 us.

2 Q. Before we go on, can you write a number 5 and write a circle

3 around that location where you say you were stopped and contacted by the

4 police.

5 A. [Marks].

6 Q. All right.

7 MR. HANNIS: Now could we take a screen shot of that and save

8 that as the next IC exhibit, please.

9 THE REGISTRAR: That would be IC29, Your Honours.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

11 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

12 Q. Now where were these police from?

13 A. The local police of Kamenica.

14 Q. And on this map it looks like the number 5 inside the circle

15 there is on the right side or the east side of another border. Have you

16 left Kamenica municipality at this point?

17 A. Yes, and we had left the border of Kosova altogether and entered

18 the Serbian territory.

19 Q. So what did the Kamenica police tell you when they stopped you at

20 this location?

21 A. I introduced myself to them, telling them that I was imam of the

22 mosque. Three policemen came up front. One of them approached my car and

23 said: We have taken orders from Gjilan from the chief of the police for us

24 to go back to our own homes, because no harm will come to you.

25 Q. So what did you and your group of villagers from Prilepnica do

Page 2795

1 then?

2 A. I felt good to hear such words, and I informed my people, telling

3 them to pass the news to all the convoy and return to our homes.

4 Q. How long did it take you to get back?

5 A. A very small number of people returned to the village that night.

6 The police in Gjilan and Kamenica had taken positions at crossroads,

7 whereas I stayed in Dobercan.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Hannis, are you saying that this place

9 called Kamenica is number 5?

10 MR. HANNIS: No, Your Honour. Kamenica is a municipality. The

11 police from Kamenica municipality --

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Oh yeah.

13 MR. HANNIS: -- reached them at this location inside Serbia

14 proper and told them that they had orders for them to return.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: So -- I've got a mark in front of -- on the plan

16 here that's got a 4 inside it, and then it would appear to be changed to a

17 5. Is that where we are at the moment?

18 MR. HANNIS: That's where we are. That's the place where he's

19 indicated they were stopped on their way to Bujanovac and told to turn

20 around. I understood 4 to be in the circle near the name Kormojan. Does

21 that assist Your Honour?

22 JUDGE BONOMY: So you're saying the account is --

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Koromjan is a Serbian village but

24 is not close to the road.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: This account is that the police from the

Page 2796

1 municipality of Kamenica have entered Serbia and told them to turn back?

2 MR. HANNIS: That's what his testimony is.

3 Q. Is that correct, Mr. Shaqiri?

4 A. Yes, that's correct.

5 Q. Thank you. Now, you said you stayed the night where?

6 A. In Dobercan village.

7 Q. Was it just you alone or others from your village?

8 A. People went to many villages because people went to their

9 relatives, acquaintances they had. I went to a friend of mine with some 15

10 members of my family. That friend of mine is of Turkish nationality.

11 Q. Did you return to Prilepnica?

12 A. I did in the evening of the 7th of April, it was a Wednesday,

13 around 6.00 in the afternoon, 1800.

14 Q. Okay. Was it just you and your family or others from the

15 village?

16 A. About 70, 80 per cent of its inhabitants had already returned;

17 the remainder had not yet returned.

18 Q. When you got back on the 7th of April, did you notice anything

19 different about the village from when you had left on the 6th?

20 A. Our houses had been looted and raided, especially in the western

21 part of the village. Not the entire village was looted. The eastern

22 partly was left intact.

23 Q. Did you have occasion to talk with any of the villagers who had

24 stayed behind on the 6th?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2797

1 Q. Were they able to tell you anything about how this had happened,

2 about how the looting had occurred or about who had done it?

3 A. It had occurred on that day, and in the evening many families had

4 rallied together and they spent the night together. Some houses,

5 especially at the end of the village or in my house was -- and where those

6 150 people were kept prisoners, were destroyed more or were looted more.

7 Q. And did they tell you who had done it?

8 A. We all knew who did it.

9 Q. Well, you were on the road in the convoy several kilometres away.

10 What did they tell you about who had done it? Had they seen it happen

11 themselves, the people who remained in your village?

12 A. Just an explanation. The entire population left the village.

13 The village was completely deserted. There was not a single Albanian left

14 in it. When some families first returned in the evening of the 6th of

15 April, they found the damage that I mentioned.

16 Q. Okay. So they didn't actually see who had done the damage; it

17 had already occurred by the time they got back. Is that correct?

18 A. No, they didn't see it. You are -- that's correct.

19 Q. Okay. Thank you.

20 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, perhaps this would be a good time for

21 the break.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, it would be, Mr. Hannis. We have a long way

23 to go yet with this witness, have we?

24 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I have estimated two and a half hours

25 with his testimony. I've done an hour and a half. I think I'll be two and

Page 2798

1 a half hours total.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Very good. We'll resume at 5.30.

3 --- Recess taken at 5.00 p.m.

4 --- On resuming at 5.32 p.m.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis.

6 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. Mr. Shaqiri, we finished talking about the trip you and your

8 fellow villagers made on the 6th of April, and you told us how you returned

9 on the 7th. Did there come a second time when you and the other villagers

10 had to leave Prilepnica?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. When was that, what day was that?

13 A. This was on the 14th of April, 1999.

14 Q. Okay. Before I ask you the details about that second trip, can

15 you tell us what -- what did you do in your village during that week after

16 you returned? Was it the normal life you had before the 6th of April?

17 A. No, the life was no longer normal. Every citizen tried his or

18 her best to contact people with authority who were of Serb nationality to

19 avoid moving out from the village because there was no reason for us to

20 move. Subsequently, on the 9th and 10th of April, we stood guard duty

21 together with the police from the town. But this did not last long, and on

22 the 13th of April, while I was getting ready to go to the mosque, around

23 12.00, 12.30 in the yard of my mother's house, two officers came. They

24 were wearing uniforms, military uniforms, and my brother's wife, my sister-

25 in-law, she got scared and she immediately came back to the house and said

Page 2799

1 to us that there was some soldiers in the yard. I went out in the yard. I

2 met with these soldiers. I knew very well who they were.

3 Q. How did you know who they were?

4 A. I knew them from earlier, from before. Ljuba Palamarevic, he

5 worked for a long time in Anamorave region, and not only me but hundreds of

6 other people from my area know him, while Djilas Mladenovic who at that

7 time worked as a director at the radiator factory, I and other citizens

8 knew him as well because we worked in that factory.

9 Q. Where is the radiator factory located?

10 A. In Gjilan.

11 Q. And where did Ljuba Palamarevic work?

12 A. He used to be a lawyer in Binacka Morava and just recently he had

13 taken up the position of a judge at the local court in Gjilan. And that's

14 why the contacts that I and other villagers had with him were very

15 frequent. We were friends.

16 Q. What kind of uniforms were these two men wearing on this day, the

17 13th of April?

18 A. Those who came in the yard on the 13th of April were wearing

19 camouflage uniforms, yellow-green camouflage uniforms. I did not notice

20 any military ranks on their uniforms, and they were not armed. They

21 conveyed the order to me and said -- of course they greeted me first, and I

22 will quote now.

23 "Good afternoon, sir."

24 I said: Good afternoon. I asked him: What do you want? And

25 they said that they were looking for the Hoxha, for the imam. Despite the

Page 2800

1 fact that they knew me very well and that I knew them, too, they just

2 wanted to verify my identity. I smiled and said to them: Well, you know

3 that I am the Hoxha here. You could see kind of a happiness on their

4 faces, and they said: It's good for us that we found you. We apologise,

5 but an order has come from the supreme staff in Belgrade, Prilepnica must

6 be evacuated.

7 Q. Did he tell you why?

8 A. Of course. And I asked him: Why? And he said: We are an army.

9 We have to carry out our orders and we do carry out our orders and we don't

10 know the reasons for those orders. They wanted to leave, but I insisted on

11 them staying for a while because I wanted other people from the village to

12 hear of this. I explained to them that it wasn't easy for someone to tell

13 his people to leave. My youngest son was there in the yard, my nephew,

14 too, my brother's son. So I ordered them to go outside in the road, and

15 whoever they see there, they should invite them in the yard of my house so

16 that they could be informed about the order that was conveyed to me by

17 these officers. Rexhep Mehmeti came, Demush Bajrami followed, and in the

18 meantime Ramadan Mehmeti came there as well. The last who arrived there

19 was a driver at this radiator factory, Reshat Rahmani and when he saw his

20 director he said to him and I'll quote: "Hello director."

21 And the director replied: Hello Reshi. And Reshi said to him:

22 What is this all about? And the director replied: We don't know Reshi.

23 We received the order for Prilepnica to move out. And then Reshi asked

24 him: Where is this taking us then?

25 Q. What did he say?

Page 2801

1 A. An army is an army, an order is an order. We respect orders, we

2 obey orders, and Prilepnica should be emptied by 9.00 tomorrow.

3 Q. Now, Mr. Shaqiri, did you tell them that you had been ordered to

4 leave and had actually left a week before?

5 A. Yes, of course. This is why other villagers, for example,

6 Ramadan, told him: Well, you made us move out from the village once. Why

7 did you make us come back? And Djilas replied: On 6th of April, you were

8 moved out by the paramilitary army. This is what Djilas said. And now he

9 continued: We are dealing with the regular army. And it is Hoxha's

10 mistake because he did not set off in the direction pursuant to the order

11 that was issued to him; he went to an opposite direction. And my reply to

12 this was that I went towards this direction because I knew that road and I

13 cannot go somewhere where I don't feel safe. So there we were told that we

14 should set off in the direction of Ferizaj --

15 Q. Okay. Let me stop you there for a minute. So when he was

16 talking about that Hoxha had made a mistake before, that meant you;

17 correct?

18 A. Yes, that meant me because on the 6th of April I set off with my

19 people in the direction of Bujanovc because it was a free zone, and it was

20 easier for us to walk in this direction because there was no danger

21 involved.

22 Q. So on the 6th you had taken your people and gone toward Serbia

23 proper, correct?

24 A. Correct.

25 Q. And on the 6th where had you been told you were supposed to go,

Page 2802

1 what direction?

2 A. In the direction of Ferizaj.

3 Q. Now, on this day you were also told that this was the regular

4 army doing it, as opposed to the paramilitary army that had ordered you out

5 on the 6th. What did you understand the term "regular army" to mean in

6 this context?

7 A. I always have respected the regular army. As every other country

8 in the world who respects its own army, we as well did not have any

9 problems whatsoever with the army --

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Just hold on there, Mr. Shaqiri. You've obviously

11 misunderstood that question. I think Mr. Hannis should explain it again.

12 MR. HANNIS: I will.

13 Q. What did you understand the difference to be between the regular

14 army and the paramilitary army that had been there the week before?

15 A. For me there was no difference. They were wearing the same

16 uniform. It didn't even occur to me to call them paramilitary army. This

17 is what Djilas called them, this formation of the 6th of April.

18 Q. Let me ask you a question about Djilas and Ljuba Palmarevic, you

19 indicated one was a director at the factory?

20 A. Ljuba --

21 Q. And one was a lawyer who became a judge?

22 A. Djilas was the director of the radiator factory, while Ljuba, he

23 had worked in another cooperative in Binicka Morave and he had become a

24 judge, he was a judge then.

25 Q. So I take it these two men are not professional soldiers or

Page 2803

1 career soldiers of the VJ?

2 A. No.

3 Q. So when they're in uniform there that day, what army are they a

4 part of, if you know?

5 A. Serbian army.

6 Q. But not -- not the regular full-time army?

7 A. No, no. Reserve officers.

8 Q. Were there any other soldiers with them when they came to the

9 village on the 13th?

10 A. As villagers were coming in to my yard, the third soldier came in

11 as well and he brought three weapons with him, three Kalashnikovs. He

12 distributed one to each, one to Ljuba, one to Palamarevic. We sat down and

13 we had a conversation. It was a heated conversation because we refused to

14 leave.

15 Q. And what was their response to your refusal to leave?

16 A. In order for me to be able to obey their order, I requested an

17 escort, and one of them then asked me what kind of escort I wanted, a

18 police or a military escort. And I said to him: It's all the same for me.

19 I just don't want to take all the responsibility. It doesn't matter

20 whether it will be the police or the army who will escort us. So I will

21 now quote what I actually said to them.

22 My regards to your staff. I demand an escort. If you promise an

23 escort, then I will organise the move out; and if you don't, then I will

24 not organise the moving out of the villagers.

25 Q. Did they agree to provide an escort?

Page 2804

1 A. They agreed to convey my demand to the staff, and they said that

2 they will -- they would inform me of their answer. They left then, the

3 three of them. Shortly after, three villagers, Demush, Rexhep, and another

4 person, Ramadan Rrama, respectively, they went to the police.

5 Q. Where?

6 A. In Gjilan. And they informed me that they had spoken with the

7 police. They had given me even a name of the policeman, but I don't

8 remember it. And the police had asked them who had issued that order. And

9 they told them that it was Ljuba and Djilas. This is what they said to me.

10 These are their words. They actually said that the policemen told them

11 that the army had taken the situation into their hands and that the police

12 could no longer do anything about it.

13

14 Q. So that's what Demush, Rexhep, and Ramadan reported to you when

15 they returned?

16 A. Yes, Ramadan, too.

17 Q. Okay. So when -- when -- when Ljuba and Djilas had told you that

18 you were going to have to leave again, did they tell you -- did they give

19 you a deadline?

20 A. The deadline was for us to go out at 9.00 to the point, to -- on

21 the main road, and within an hour, Ljuba and Djilas, they both returned to

22 Prelepnica. They didn't meet me when they returned. They simply left a

23 message for me, and it contained just a small change, to be at the well at

24 8.00 and that an escort was approved.

25 Q. So after you had learned of what the police had to say about this

Page 2805

1 and you got this message from Ljuba and Djilas changing the time from 9.00

2 to 8.00, what did you do?

3 A. Well, we prepared ourselves that night. People were crying.

4 They were crying more than it rained. And the following day at 7.30, the

5 whole population of the village was on the road, in tractors, motor

6 cultivators, cars.

7 Q. And how many people in your convoy this time, the same as the

8 week before?

9 A. The same as the first time.

10 Q. Was there an escort waiting for you that morning?

11 A. On the 13th of April, the army encircled the village because some

12 villagers began to fled -- to flee.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Correction.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And now that they came, nobody

15 could leave the village any longer. In the end of the village an APC,

16 almost the same one as the one on the 6th of April manned by the three

17 officers, was positioned at 2 kilometres from the main road, at the end

18 part of our village. I approached them. I greeted them, and they asked

19 me, I quote: "Hoxha, have you got it all in place? Do you need a bus or

20 some fuel?"

21 And I said to them: No, I don't need anything. I just need the

22 escort that you promised. So then they said to me: You can go now and the

23 escort is waiting for you at the well. On the way to the well, there is

24 the village of Kosac, and people from this village were also ordered to

25 leave. And I was actually surprised to see them there and to see them

Page 2806

1 joining our convoy -- Q. Approximately how many people were in that group

2 from that village?

3 A. I don't know how many there were. Maybe 300, 400, up to 600. I

4 would say 3 to 400.

5 Q. Did they all join you?

6 A. They joined the convoy from my village.

7 Q. I need to back up just a second. I forgot to ask you. You

8 mentioned seeing the three officers, and I take it that's Ljuba Palamarevic

9 and Djilas from the battery factory. Who was the third one?

10 A. Their driver. I don't know his name.

11 Q. Is he the same man that you referred to earlier as having brought

12 the weapons that had been given to them on the day before?

13 A. Yes, yes, the same. He worked in the people's defence in Gjilan.

14 Q. After the villagers from Kosac joined your convoy, where did you

15 go?

16 A. We walked for another 50 or 60 metres to the main road. There we

17 stopped. A reservist offended me, said to me: Why did you stop here? And

18 I said to him: I have to wait for the escort. And he said: Wow, you want

19 an escort? He threatened me, but I was determined to wait there. It was

20 ten past 8.00.

21 I want to mention a small detail here. A black Mercedes came

22 there. It belonged to high-ranking officers. There were four persons in

23 that Mercedes. I would say all of them were generals. They stopped the

24 Mercedes. I was 5 or 6 metres far from this vehicle speaking to this

25 reservist, military person. They continued towards Gjilan, and the

Page 2807

1 military person contacted the military staff in Gjilan via radio. The same

2 question that was put to me by Ljuba at the turn, whether I needed a bus or

3 not or whether I needed some fuel, the same question was put by the people

4 from the staff. And I gave the same answer. I said I didn't need any.

5 And then they just replied: Let them wait there. The escort will be there

6 in five minutes.

7 Q. Mr. Shaqiri, when you left that morning on the 14th, what was

8 your ultimate destination? Had you been told to go to a particular

9 location?

10 A. I didn't know. They just told us to go in the direction of

11 Ferizaj.

12 Q. And the Serbian name for Ferizaj is Urosevac?

13 A. Yes.

14

15 Q. And you mentioned this reservist who offended you at this first

16 crossroads. When you say "reservist," what -- what organisation are you

17 talking about? He was a reservist in what?

18 A. He was a reservist in the police force. He was wearing a dark

19 blue uniform, a winter uniform, that is heavy clothes.

20 Q. And how did you know he was a reservist as opposed to a regular

21 policeman?

22 A. Because I used to wear the same uniform for 15 years.

23 Q. Okay. When you were in the army reserve or the police reserve?

24 A. In the army reserve.

25 Q. Is there any other factor that helped you distinguish what you

Page 2808

1 sometimes refer to as the regular army and army reserve or regular

2 policeman and police reserve, as far as the appearance of those

3 individuals?

4 A. I want to make an explanation. During the time I was a reservist

5 - and I have seen other people doing the same - we kept the uniforms at

6 home to be ready when they might call us for some exercises. At the time

7 there were both uniforms, military police and the usual army. They used

8 the same uniforms, that is, the military police. My brother had the same

9 police uniform; he was a reservist.

10 Q. Any differences, generally speaking, in physical appearance

11 between reservist and full-time police or army personnel in terms of

12 conditioning or age?

13 A. I may distinguish two aspects. The regular army soldiers always

14 obeyed military commands. They went in large formations, not in small

15 formations of one or two, whereas people of various ages above 35 or 40,

16 they always acted in groups without having any kind of certain command, at

17 least this is what I thought, this is my impression.

18 Q. Mr. Shaqiri, I want to --

19 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm -- sorry, Mr. Hannis, to interrupt.

20 MR. HANNIS: Yes.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: I have to say I don't understand the comparison of

22 the uniforms at all.

23 Mr. Shaqiri, why did you mention military police uniforms?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For many years on end, we used to

25 keep a uniform at home at a reservist. And now and again when there was

Page 2809

1 some mobilisations for military exercises or drilling, we reservists

2 participated in these exercises organised by the regular army. And the

3 army always supplied us with uniform -- with SMB uniform, that is green

4 uniform, one plain uniform, and dark green uniform to other units, but we

5 acted together in military barracks. That was in the context of a unified

6 military command.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: What do you mean by military police?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] By this I mean a unit belonging to

9 the regular army or unit belonging to the reserve army. It was a military

10 unit.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: And did it have any particular duties?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Depending on the orders we were

13 given by the army, whatever exercises were organised we abided by the

14 orders given to us, but nothing specific.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: I've simply managed to increase my confusion, Mr.

16 Hannis. I don't understand what's being said about -- it may be me alone.

17 I don't understand what's being said about uniforms. If you want to

18 clarify, please do, if you don't feel it's necessary, then carry on.

19 MR. HANNIS: Thank you. I'm going to try one other question.

20 Q. Mr. Shaqiri, were there any differences between the uniforms of

21 the regular army, regular full-time VJ, and the uniforms that the army

22 reservist wore, any difference in terms of colour, quality of uniforms,

23 texture, anything like that that you could tell by looking at a uniform and

24 saying: That's a reservist uniform, that's a regular army uniform?

25 A. Someone at the age of 40 or 50 that wears a winter uniform in

Page 2810

1 summer, because this is what we kept at home, and the young man of 20 --

2 you can tell between those two categories of people. I said earlier that

3 the soldiers didn't come to our homes. I don't -- I can't speak for other

4 places because the soldiers went in columns under commands, whereas these

5 people acted in groups of two or three using private cars. The regular

6 soldier didn't have any private car, whereas these people had and they

7 looted and raided our homes and took away the goods from our homes in their

8 cars. This is the difference.

9 Q. Okay. I'll --

10 JUDGE BONOMY: This arose, Mr. Shaqiri, because you said that you

11 recognised a police reservist uniform because you had worn one for 15

12 years. And we understood that you were an army reservist, and therefore

13 we're confused - at least I am - about the relationship between an army

14 reservists uniform and a police reservist uniform.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The blue uniforms were worn also

16 by the aviation army -- Yugoslav air force --

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, do without anymore complications. Just

18 confine yourself to the two examples I've given you. So tell us if they

19 are -- if there is a difference between a police reservist uniform and an

20 army reservist uniform.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The military uniform had a green,

22 olive-green-grey colour, dark green, whereas the military police uniform

23 usually wore light blue uniform or blue uniform, at least this is how it

24 was in my time.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: So why would you then say that you recognised the

Page 2811

1 uniform of a police reservist, which is blue, because you had for 15 years

2 been wearing the same uniform, but as an army reservist we would expect you

3 to have a green one?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, mine was green, that is true.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. It's obviously me.

6 I'll go back to you, Mr. Hannis.

7 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

8 Q. Mr. Shaqiri, I want to move on to your journey on that day.

9 Where did you eventually end up at the end of -- of your travels after you

10 left your village on the 14th?

11 A. It is true that after five minutes, Mila came. A road traffic --

12 normal road traffic policeman. He said that: I am the one who will escort

13 you by a police car.

14 Q. Let me stop you there for a second. I want to work -- I want to

15 jump forward and then come backwards and we'll go through your journey step

16 by step. But what was your ultimate destination? Where was the final

17 place you had ended after you left your village on that day?

18 A. We ended in Macedonia.

19 Q. Okay. And what town in Macedonia?

20 A. I was in Senakos of Gostivar with 925 inhabitants.

21 Q. Okay. And approximately how long did it take you to make the

22 journey from your village to Macedonia in number of hours or days?

23 A. It took us one day.

24 Q. And during that --

25 A. Until the border.

Page 2812

1 Q. Okay. During that journey to the border with Macedonia, did you

2 go through a number of check-points?

3 A. Yes, we did.

4 Q. And we'll talk about each one in a minute, but in general who was

5 manning the check-points that you went through, was it civilians, army,

6 police, paramilitaries?

7 A. At Kllokot check-point, I saw people wearing the same uniform as

8 the policeman I mentioned, that is blue uniform.

9 Q. Let me ask you from your village, did you go to -- did you go to

10 Gjilan this time, to the town of Gjilan?

11 A. Yes. Mila escort us up to Livos.

12 Q. And Mila was the local policeman from where?

13 A. He is from Ranilluga, a regular police, road -- traffic police.

14 Q. Was he the only person in your escort or were there other

15 policemen?

16 A. He was the only one up to Livos. There -- we stopped there and

17 we saw a bus in front of us and we saw the last inhabitants of Livos

18 getting on that bus. In the meantime, another bus from Zhegra came and

19 until Partizani road as we call it, which goes in the direction of Tetova,

20 the buses came with us.

21 Q. Let me stop you there.

22 MR. HANNIS: And if we could put up a map, this again will be the

23 Kosovo atlas 615, at page 24 in the e-court version.

24 Q. I want to take you from Gjilan to Macedonia, Mr. Shaqiri, and

25 you'll have a map on your screen in a moment that I hope shows most of the

Page 2813

1 route that you went on and we'll see if it's big enough. From Gjilan, what

2 was the next village or town you went through?

3 A. Parteshi --

4 MR. HANNIS: Can we enlarge that a couple of steps -- or can we

5 reduce it one or two steps? Okay. Let's try that.

6 Q. From Gjilan you went to Parteshi?

7 A. First lower Livos, then Partesh.

8 Q. Okay. Can you use the pen. Again I'll have the usher hand it to

9 you.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And can you draw a circle and put a number 1 around Partesh.

12 A. [Marks].

13 Q. From Partesh, where did you go next?

14 A. Here, Radivojce.

15 Q. And after that what was the next village?

16 A. Kllokot.

17 Q. I see the road divides there and it appears that one road goes

18 south towards Vitia or Vitina --

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And one goes west to Ferizaj. Could you draw a circle around it

21 and put 2?

22 A. We went to the village of Viti.

23 Q. Can you draw a circle around Kllokot and put a 2 there.

24 A. [Marks].

25 Q. And why did you decide to go to Viti instead of Ferizaj?

Page 2814

1 A. At Livos the escort was changed. Now we have a white Zastava

2 car, 101, Jovak, also a traffic police officer in Gjilan, with three other

3 policemen.

4 Q. So a total of four policemen are escorting you now?

5 A. Yes. Now we have a total of four policemen, and we followed them

6 wherever they went.

7 Q. Okay. And they took you in the direction of Viti at that

8 crossroads?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Where did you go after Kllokot?

11 A. We passed through Viti.

12 Q. And from Viti, where did you go?

13 A. We went to the main road that goes to Ferizaj and Skopije, the

14 main road.

15 Q. Can you draw a circle with the number 3 in it around Viti.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And from there, where did you go next? .

18 A. There is a village here, maybe I need to consult my notes about

19 the name.

20 Q. Yes, if you -- if you want.

21 A. Yes, we went to Duganaj, this is the name of the village we went

22 to.

23 Q. And where is that located, approximately, if you don't see it on

24 the map?

25 A. Duganaj is situated some 15 kilometres before you enter the

Page 2815

1 Macedonian border. I can't read it here in this map. I can't see it very

2 well.

3 Q. I -- if you look directly south of Ferizaj, toward the bottom of

4 the map, I see something that appears to have a name like the one you're

5 describing to me. It looks like Duganovic or Duganaj.

6 A. Yes, yes. It must be this, it reads Duganaj. It's along the

7 main road where it divides with Partizani road, it goes towards Tutova.

8 Yes, that's it, Duganaj, now I see it. It goes in the direction of Tutova

9 or Prizren, it divides here.

10 Q. Can you draw a circle around it and put the number 4 if you see

11 it now.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And from there where did you go?

14 A. The road continues towards Gllobocika or Macedonia, Jazhince is

15 the first village in the border.

16 Q. And that would be south of what you can see on the map here?

17 A. Yes, it is at the border.

18 Q. Okay.

19 MR. HANNIS: If we could take a screen shot of that and give it

20 the next IC number, please.

21 THE REGISTRAR: That would be IC30, Your Honours.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

23 MR. HANNIS: And then to complete the journey, if we could put up

24 another page from the Kosovo atlas and I think that would be page 28.

25 Q. Mr. Shaqiri, were you familiar with this route that you were

Page 2816

1 taking, had you ever been along that route before?

2 A. I passed quite rarely.

3 MR. HANNIS: And if on this map we could enlarge the upper half.

4 One more time, please.

5 Q. In the upper left-hand corner, I don't know if you can see the

6 name, it's the village that you just told me about before called --

7 MR. HANNIS: Could we enlarge it one more time. I'm sorry.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Gllobocika is where we went

9 here.

10 MR. HANNIS:

11 Q. And is that where you crossed the border into Macedonia?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Had you been in this part of Kosovo before?

14 A. I don't think I have used this road because usually I went

15 through Skopije.

16 Q. During your journey on the 14th of April from Gjilan to the

17 Macedonian border, did you notice anything about the villages you were

18 passing through on the way?

19 A. The Albanian villages like Livos was vacated of its people.

20 Budrika didn't have a single inhabitant. In Radivojce, which I encircled,

21 there was only an old man and an old woman crying. I didn't see other

22 people. There we saw Serbian army vehicles that were covered with hay

23 between two houses, camouflaged. We saw barbed wire on the road, we had to

24 come around it. And they insulted us, and -- but we never stopped. For

25 some -- after some 5 or 6 kilometre at a water tap, there was a check-point

Page 2817

1 and it was an army check-point. They were wearing olive-green uniforms.

2 In Duganaj we waited for three hours in the road.

3 Q. Let me ask you: When were you across the border into Macedonia,

4 were there any check-points or border guards or police or army?

5 A. Before we arrived at the border, it was some 5 or 6 kilometres

6 away from the border, that was a military check-point. The officer stopped

7 us.

8 Q. What happened when he stopped you, did you talk with him?

9 A. Yes. I introduced myself to him and informed him where our

10 convoy was heading to and that we were being escorted by police. He asked

11 me where the police was, and I told him that they went back to make sure

12 that the convoy was all in order because we were approaching the border.

13 He ordered me to go and line up people in their cars, 50 by 50, for us to

14 go to the border. But initially he said that he would search them to see

15 if they were carrying any weapons.

16 Q. Okay. And this person, was he a soldier or a policeman?

17 A. He was an army is officer.

18 Q. What kind of uniform was he wearing?

19 A. The green uniform, olive-green.

20 Q. Camouflage or solid colour?

21 A. Solid green-grey uniform.

22 Q. Did he have any rank or insignia that you recall?

23 A. I didn't recall seeing any.

24 Q. What did -- what, if anything, did you say to him when he said

25 they were going to search your convoy?

Page 2818

1 A. I assured him that nobody was carrying any weapons, but of course

2 it was his right to check, to make sure, and that I obeyed the order he

3 gave me. I left my car and walked, informing everyone in the convoy that

4 they would be searching them for weapons. I couldn't make all -- I

5 couldn't make it up to the end of the convoy. After informing 50 or 60

6 cars, vehicles, I gave order for them to pass the news to everyone. By the

7 time I returned to the head of the column Jova arrived, and he asked me in

8 Albanian because he speaks Albanian very well like me: Why did you stop,

9 he said?

10 Q. And Jova is the policeman with the other three escorting you?

11 A. Yes. And I told him that the military check-point stopped us and

12 that they wanted to search us for weapons.

13 Q. What happened then?

14 A. He laughed and said that nobody has weapons, but I think we -- he

15 said: Maybe you want to -- they want you to go back to Kacanik because it

16 is not allowed at this place to cross the border. It's not allowed to

17 cross the border at this check-point. If you want to cross the border at

18 this place and if you agree, then maybe you have to pay them money. I

19 agreed. I didn't care how much it would cost us because there was no way

20 we could go back. And I walked for some 10 or 15 metres; before my car

21 there was a soldier. When I approached him he asked me, and I am quoting:

22 "Is this your car?" I said: Yes. Without any reason, he hit me with his

23 weapon on my stomach. I bent a little. For the second time he hit me on

24 my leg and I was suffering from my leg for a long time. Then he started to

25 slap me until I kind of woke up because for some moments I kind of lost

Page 2819

1 consciousness. My mother was sitting on the front seat and near the place

2 where the soldier was hitting me was my younger son and then my wife. And

3 on the back seat was my sister-in-law with her younger son. And then my

4 people was following behind.

5 Q. What happened then after this soldier hit you?

6 A. Someone informed Jova that: The Hoxha is being beaten, and he

7 intervened.

8 Q. What happened after Jova intervened, what happened to the soldier

9 who had hit you?

10 A. To tell you the truth, I -- at that moment I was unable to hear

11 well. I had a noise on my -- in my ear, but other people told me that Jova

12 shouted - and I'm quoting - "Don't hit the man." And the officer and Jova

13 pulled that soldier away from me. Jova stayed with the soldier while the

14 policeman returned to me and apologised, and I am quoting --

15 Q. Let me stop you. You said Jova stayed with the soldier and the

16 policeman returned. Did you mean the policeman or the officer?

17 A. Not the policeman, but the officer who had issued the order to

18 line up the vehicles 50 by 50 while the traffic policeman, he remained

19 there with the soldier.

20 Q. And this officer is the first one you had talked to when you

21 stopped there, the same one?

22 A. Yes, the one I had spoken to shortly before.

23 Q. He apologised to you, and then what happened?

24 A. Yes. Then he was trying to convince me that he was innocent, and

25 I quote: "Please believe me, Hoxha, that it's not my fault."

Page 2820

1 I lost control for a moment, and in a strict voice I told him:

2 You are not innocent. It is your fault because this is your soldier, and

3 it's not a civilised thing to beat up a Hoxha in the presence of his own

4 family and in the presence of his own people. But the officer then in

5 return just promised that he will let my column and my people go through

6 the border without being searched. I said to him that I will pray to God

7 for his sins in case he lets all the villagers from my village pass the

8 border safely. He kept his word and I kept mine.

9 Q. Okay. And once you got across the border, where did you and your

10 group go to stay that first night?

11 A. Before we crossed the border, this soldier, this officer, handed

12 us over to the border police. There is a border station there, so he

13 handed us over to the person in charge of the border station. He ordered

14 us to leave all our vehicles in a field nearby and to leave the car keys

15 inside as well as the licenses of our vehicles.

16 All of you leave your keys and your licenses.

17 Maybe you will find them when you come back. This is what

18 happened. After that, we crossed the border on foot, all of us.

19 Q. Did you ever get to go back and get your vehicles and your

20 licenses?

21 A. The -- we spent the first night in the zone between the two

22 borders and the next day in the evening, sometime after 7.00 p.m., buses

23 from Macedonia took us to different camps. As I mentioned earlier, I was

24 in Senakov village together with 925 villagers from my village. Others

25 went to the camp called Stenkovac 1. Some went to other camps, and

Page 2821

1 according to some statistics we were all scattered in 24 states throughout

2 the world. When we returned, some earlier and some later, we didn't find

3 anything. We didn't find our vehicles. Those that had remained had been

4 burned and looted.

5 Q. When did you --

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Can I be clear who it was who told you to leave

7 the vehicles in the field?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The chief of the customs police. I

9 think he was from Viti. He was about 60 years old.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

11 MR. HANNIS:

12 Q. Mr. Shaqiri, when you -- when did you return to your village

13 after the war then?

14 A. I returned on the 25th of June.

15 MR. HANNIS: Could we show you Exhibit P1798, 1798, which is a

16 photograph.

17 Q. Did you notice any damage in your village that was not there when

18 you left on the 13th or 14th of April?

19 A. We found the village completely burnt, destroyed, looted.

20 The mosque burnt.

21 Q. Do you recognise that photograph that's on your screen now?

22 A. This is another photograph. This is not the mosque in my

23 village. It must be a mosque from another village.

24 Q. You don't recognise this particular one?

25 A. No.

Page 2822

1 Q. Thank you. Now, when --

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Sorry to interrupt you again, Mr. Hannis, just to

3 be clear. Mr. Shaqiri, did you mean to say it was the chief of the

4 customs police who told you to leave the vehicles?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: And is that something distinct from the border

7 police?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The border police and the chief of

9 the police, they were one thing. I could not add anything to this. He was

10 wearing a police uniform, a blue uniform. He introduced himself, and he

11 ordered us to leave the vehicles in the field.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you.

13 Mr. Hannis.

14 MR. HANNIS:

15 Q. Did you notice any difference between his police uniform and what

16 you recognised as a regular police uniform? Was it a solid colour or

17 camouflage?

18 A. It was a solid colour.

19 MR. HANNIS: Could we show the witness Exhibit P24, please.Q.

20 Mr. Shaqiri, why did you and your fellow villagers leave Kosovo on the 14th

21 of April, 1999?A. Simply because of the order and the fact that our village

22 was encircled by the army at that time, on the 13th of April. There was no

23 other way out for us except to fulfil -- to obey these orders or to fight.

24 Since we were not able to fight, we just obeyed their orders as calmly as

25 possible.Q. Were you afraid of NATO bombing? A. No.Q. Were there any

Page 2823

1 significant battles or fighting between the KLA and Serbian police or VJ in

2 your village or the immediate area that you know of?A. Nowhere, not in my

3 village or in Anamorava.Q. Could you have a look at the map that's on your

4 screen now and tell us, can you recognise or can you point out to the

5 Judges the general route you took from your village to Macedonia? A.

6 From Prilepnica, we went to Gjilan. We passed by Cernice, Gladove,

7 Zhegra, Kllokot, and we returned through the road from Sllatine to Viti,

8 then we came on this road leading to Dubrava. And finally to Gllobocika.

9 MR. HANNIS: Thank you. Could we take a screen shot of that and

10 give it the next IC number.

11 THE REGISTRAR: That will be IC31, Your Honours.

12 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

14 [Prosecution counsel confer]

15 MR. HANNIS:

16 Q. Mr. Shaqiri, when you were in Macedonia, do you recall, were you

17 interviewed by any representatives of the OSCE or some other human rights

18 organisation about how you came to leave Kosovo?

19 A. Yes.

20 MR. HANNIS: Could we put Exhibit 2288 on the screen, please.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: That last exhibit, Mr. Hannis, the witness seemed

22 to have marked in part. Is that right?

23 MR. HANNIS: Yes.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: As he went along.

25 MR. HANNIS: Yes.

Page 2824

1 JUDGE BONOMY: And it would really be absolutely impossible to

2 tell what he marked on it because it already has markings in the same

3 colour.

4 MR. HANNIS: Well, Your Honour, I think if you use the exhibit in

5 conjunction of the transcript where he said we went from here to here to

6 here you could follow on the exhibit.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, I --

8 MR. HANNIS: I take your point it's not --

9 JUDGE BONOMY: I just wondered if it's even necessary since we've

10 had the route actually drawn for us already. But anyway, the point is --

11 MR. HANNIS: I was trying to identify his particular route.

12 Thank you.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.

14 MR. HANNIS:

15 Q. Mr. Shaqiri, what's your date of birth?

16 A. 6th March 1949.

17 Q. And are you the only imam from Prilepnica?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Is there -- do you know any other Shaqiri who has a first name

20 Abylthaqin A-b-y-l-t-h-a-q-i-n?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Does this document refer to you? I know it's in English -- oh,

23 maybe it's not on your screen yet?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. That appears to refer to you, even though the first name is

Page 2825

1 misspelled?

2 A. Yes. My name is misspelled. There is a letter missing, a D, A-

3 b-d and it's not T, it should be H, Haqim. So it's A-b-y-d --

4 Q. Okay. Thank you. After the interview, did anybody read back the

5 information they'd taken from you or did you sign anything?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. I'm sorry. I asked you multiple questions, so now I don't know

8 which one you're answering yes. Did they read it back to you?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did you sign it?

11 A. Yes, I signed it.

12 MR. HANNIS: Thank you. I don't have any more questions about

13 that document, and I don't have any more questions for you at this time. I

14 think Defence counsel may have some questions.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you help me, is the document signed?

16 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, this is not. This is from our

17 database. This is not the raw form that would have been used with the

18 witness.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you.

20 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. O'Sullivan.

22 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, we'll proceed in this order:

23 General Pavkovic, General Lazarevic, Mr. Sainovic, Mr. Milutinovic, General

24 Lukic, and General Ojdanic.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ackerman.

Page 2826

1 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, there's very little I can do with ten

2 minutes that I might not have to almost repeat tomorrow in terms of a set

3 up, but if you would like me to go ahead, I certainly will.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, I would like you to, please, Mr. Ackerman.

5 MR. ACKERMAN: All right.

6 Cross-examination by Mr. Ackerman:

7 Q. Mr. Shaqiri, my name is John Ackerman. I represent General

8 Pavkovic, along with Aleksander Aleksic and our case manager Aleksander

9 Vujic. I'm going to have quite a few questions to ask you, as it turns

10 out, and I'm going to try to make those questions as -- as easy to

11 understand as I possibly can. If you don't understand a question that I

12 ask you, please let me know that you don't understand it and I will

13 rephrase it so that you understand exactly what I'm asking. Would that be

14 a fair thing to do?

15 A. Everything is all right.

16 Q. Just as a kind of preliminary, basic question, would I be safe in

17 assuming that you're like most of us, that your memory tends to fade with

18 the passage of time?

19 A. Some things do fade; that's correct.

20 Q. I notice that you've even brought some notes here with you today

21 just in case you had some difficulty remembering something; correct?

22 A. [No interpretation].

23 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter could not hear the witness.

24 MR. ACKERMAN: I think he said "po," Your Honour.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

Page 2827

1 MR. ACKERMAN:

2 Q. And you have given your account of these events, either

3 completely or incompletely, on a number of occasions, haven't you?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And for instance, you just saw on the screen one of the occasions

6 where you gave an account of what happened, and I think -- I think this

7 occasion when you were interviewed in Macedonia, that was like on the 19th

8 of April as I recall, just basically right after you had arrived there. Is

9 that true?

10 A. That's true.

11 Q. And of course that would have been a time when your memory

12 probably would have been extremely clear about the things that had happened

13 to you over the last couple, three days?

14 A. That's correct.

15 Q. All right. Now -- then the next time that I'm aware of that you

16 talked about these events was about six days later on the 25th of April,

17 1999, when you talked to Kathrine Driguet [phoen], do you remember that?

18 A. Yes, in French.

19 Q. Yes, that was in French, and of course there was an interpreter

20 there interpreting into your language, into Albanian, wasn't there?

21 A. It was very difficult because the interpreter was not a good one.

22 Q. After this interview had been completed, the interpreter

23 certainly read to you the statement and gave you a chance to make any

24 corrections that you would want to make. Isn't that true?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2828

1 Q. And it was read to you in a way where you can understand what

2 that interpreter was telling you. Isn't that true? It wasn't read

3 hastily, it was read carefully, wasn't it?

4 A. At normal speed.

5 Q. And after it had been read to you and you had heard what the

6 interpreter told you that was in the statement, you then signed at the end

7 what's called a witness acknowledgement; correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And that acknowledgement has this language, which is a little

10 different from normal, it says: "I declare upon my honour and conscience

11 that the information contained in this statement, which has been read over

12 to me in my language, accurately reflects the interview held on 25 April

13 1999."

14 Do you remember signing that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did you ever read the certification that was signed by the

17 interpreter?

18 A. I don't know. I don't remember.

19 Q. All right. And you understood that when you signed this and

20 acknowledged this, that what you were saying was the things you had said in

21 this statement were true to the best of your recollection; correct?

22 A. Correct.

23 Q. The next time then that -- that I know that you gave a statement

24 was in 2001, in June of 2001, on the 19th and the 22nd, to Annette Murtagh

25 an interviewer from this Tribunal. Do you remember that statement?

Page 2829

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And again, once you had finished giving that statement, it was

3 typed up into English and read to you by the interpreter, and you were

4 given an opportunity to make any additions or corrections that you believed

5 necessary, weren't you?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And just to underscore that, you were asked to sign the bottom of

8 each page after it was read to you, weren't you?

9 A. Yes, I signed, I know I signed, but I don't know if it is on

10 every page.

11 Q. Would you take my word for it or do you want me to have it shown

12 to you?

13 A. I take your word for it.

14 Q. Thank you. The witness acknowledgement on that one says: "This

15 statement consisting of eight pages has been read over to me in the

16 Albanian language and is true to the best of my knowledge and

17 recollection."

18 And you signed that, didn't you?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And that was about two years after the events that you've

21 testified about today - correct - 2001?

22 A. 2001, yes.

23 Q. The next time that you were asked to make any kind of a statement

24 about this matter was on the 5th of February, 2002. You gave a statement

25 to a Jan Pfundheller. Do you remember giving that statement?

Page 2830

1 A. I know that I have corrected some technical mistakes.

2 Q. Yes, that's the one I'm referring to. And again, you signed that

3 one, didn't you?

4 A. Having corrected it, yes, I signed it.

5 Q. Yes, and what -- what you said there was also true to the best of

6 your knowledge and belief; correct?

7 A. These were just mistakes like the date, my birth date, the name

8 of my father, and some other mistakes. So those that I noticed, I

9 corrected them and I underlined them and then initialled them. So I

10 corrected technical mistakes.

11 Q. Yes, I understand that, and we'll get into those in a little more

12 detail when we talk tomorrow. One more quick question: You then provided

13 some information to the Prosecutor's office after you arrived here on 28

14 August when you talked to attorneys Keith Scully and Irina Dragulev and

15 gave some supplemental information about these events, didn't you?

16 A. Yes, photographs and --

17 Q. Yes, and you were also telling them the truth when you -- when

18 you told them those things. Is that correct?

19 A. I told them the other part after I returned to Kosova. The

20 filming and the photographs that I had taken of the burnt mosques and the

21 house and some other photographs of my house.

22 Q. My question was: You were telling them the truth when you told

23 them the things you told them on the 28th, weren't you?

24 A. Of course.

25 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I think that's a good place to stop.

Page 2831

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that's very helpful, Mr. Ackerman. Just one

2 thing perhaps you could clarify. The interview you mentioned with

3 Pfundheller, what organisation or group --

4 MR. ACKERMAN: ICTY, Your Honour, OTP.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: That's another OTP?

6 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

8 Well, Mr. Shaqiri, we need to adjourn there for today and resume

9 your evidence tomorrow; that will be at 2.15. You need to be back here in

10 place to continue giving evidence at 2.15 tomorrow. Meanwhile, it is

11 extremely important that you do not discuss any part of your evidence with

12 anyone, and by that I mean either the evidence you've already given or the

13 evidence you may yet give in the case. You can talk about anything else

14 you wish with anyone you see, but you must not, with anyone, discuss any

15 aspect of your evidence.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you for your advice, Your

17 Honour, and I will respect it.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

19 And we'll resume tomorrow at 2.15.

20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.04 p.m.,

21 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 6th day of

22 September, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.

23

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