1 Thursday, 2 November 2006
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.22 a.m.
5 [The witness entered court]
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Good morning, Mr. Popaj.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Your evidence will now continue. Please remember
9 that the declaration you made at the beginning to tell the truth continues
10 to apply to everything you say in court today. And counsel, Mr. Ackerman,
11 will continue with his questions.
12 Mr. Ackerman.
13 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Your Honour. Your Honour, I've given a
14 copy of his Albanian statement -- there, it's being handed to him now.
15 WITNESS: SABRI POPAJ [Resumed]
16 [Witness answered through interpreter]
17 Cross-examination by Mr. Ackerman: [Continued]
18 Q. Mr. Popaj, would you open that up to, I think, the second page.
19 You'll find some yellow highlighting in your statement there. Tell me
20 when you've seen the yellow highlighting.
21 A. Two other brothers, Nazmi and Nesim, who live --
22 Q. Excuse me, I have no idea what you're doing. I didn't ask you to
23 read anything. I want you to find a page in that statement where I have
24 highlighted in yellow some material. Maybe the usher could help you find
1 A. This one is highlighted with red.
2 Q. I want one that's in yellow. Maybe the usher can help find it.
3 It's on, I think, the second page of the statement.
4 Now, you see the part that's in yellow. I'd just like you to read
5 it out, please. This is your statement that you gave to the Office of the
6 Prosecutor, so read out what you said there in Albanian.
7 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please provide the reference
8 in English for the interpreters.
9 MR. ACKERMAN: It's on the top of page 3 of the English statement,
10 the last sentence in the first paragraph on page 3.
11 Q. Could you read it out loud, sir.
12 A. The first question?
13 Q. I want you to read the part that's yellow. Can you see the part
14 that's highlighted in yellow?
15 A. Yes.
16 "I returned upstairs and went outside. I saw five tanks which
17 were moving and taking up positions on a hill above Celine. I then told
18 my family that the tanks had left."
19 Q. All right. That's what's in your statement, isn't it?
20 A. Yes, I told my family that the tanks had left the village, those
21 that were near the mosque, that they went in the direction of the hill
22 above Celine.
23 Q. No, that's not what it says. You just read what it says. It
24 says: "I saw the five tanks move off and take up positions on a hill
25 overlooking Celine." You just read that to us; you didn't say you saw the
1 three. Now, what I want to know is: Is what you said in your statement
2 true or is that not true?
3 A. It is true that they left, the tanks that went in the direction of
4 Celine, above Celine.
5 Q. And according --
6 A. And Bellacerka.
7 Q. And, according to your statement, that was five tanks; right?
8 A. Five tanks entered the village.
9 Q. So your statement is wrong. When you say, in your statement, "The
10 five tanks moved off and took up positions on the hill overlooking
11 Celine," that's wrong. Is that your testimony? Is that what you're
12 saying under oath today?
13 A. This is what I said in my statement and I'll repeat it today. The
14 tanks that were near the mosque, they moved off in the direction of the
15 hill above Celine. Those that went to the schoolyard, they remained
16 there. Those that were at the mosque, they moved off in the direction of
17 the hill.
18 Q. Well, I think we'll get no further with that, sir, but the
19 honourable Judges can see that that's not what you said in your statement,
20 and I think that's good enough.
21 Now, these tanks, wherever you want us to believe they were, never
22 fired any weapons, did they?
23 A. They did not fire weapons at our village with tanks.
24 Q. Okay. Now, also in your statement, one of the things you told us
25 is, you said: "I have, in the past, along with most of the village, given
1 money and food to the KLA." What I would like to know is who was it in
2 the KLA that you gave money and food to? Was it one person, several
3 persons? Who was it you gave this stuff to, food and money?
4 A. We gave this in 1998. They were delivered to the KLA by the
5 leader of the village.
6 Q. No, I didn't ask you that. I asked you who you gave money and
7 food to, not "we." Who did you give money and food to? Give me the name.
8 A. We, not only me, my family, and others, we gave this money.
9 Q. Yes, I know that others did and that's not my question. My
10 question is: Who did you - you, Mr. Popaj, Mr. Sabri Popaj - who did you
11 give money and food to? Give me a name.
12 A. Mustafe Gashi was the village leader, and the people who were with
13 him, they took this to the KLA.
14 Q. All right. And that was just one time that you gave food and
16 A. One time. They asked one time, and we gave it one time.
17 Q. You've told us, about a week before the 25th of March, around the
18 18th of March, I guess, you say that some Serb police and soldiers arrived
19 and started digging bunkers on a hill overlooking the village, and they
20 had with them trucks and armoured vehicles. Do you remember that part of
21 your statement?
22 A. Yes. They entered Naim Fetoshi's house and they forced him to
23 leave his house.
24 MR. ACKERMAN: For the registry, I'll be wanting to look at P615,
25 page 22.
1 Q. What steps did these people that came there with trucks and
2 armoured vehicles take to camouflage these vehicles? What did they
3 camouflage them with? What did they cover them with?
4 A. They dug the holes with excavators, they put them inside, and then
5 they covered them with all sorts of things.
6 Q. They put the vehicles in the holes; is that what you're saying?
7 A. One APC went to Naim Fetoshi's courtyard, while the others, they
8 went to the Breg or Brdo area. And they were firing from there.
9 Q. All right.
10 MR. ACKERMAN: Now I would like the registry to zoom in, please,
11 on this map. There's -- you can see a couple of villages below and to the
12 village of Grahovac, almost right in the centre of the map. Now you --
13 now I want to go down. You can see Bela Crkva now and Celina. I want to
14 zoom in, right in between those two villages. That's perfect.
15 Q. All right, sir. You should be able to see on a map, in front of
16 you now, your village of Bela Crkva and the village of Celina. And the
17 first thing I'd like you to show us, by using a red pen or a blue pen or
18 whatever color you want to use, the root that the tanks took, how they
19 came into your village, and then where they went in the vicinity of
21 A. This is the road that goes to Rahovec.
22 Q. Okay. And what road did the tanks use when they entered your
24 A. The road from Xerxe to Rahovec. The tanks were above Bellacerka,
25 and they entered Bellacerka from the left.
1 Q. Okay. Would you just draw a line from where they entered to
2 Celina, where they parked.
3 A. Above the hill, between Bellacerka and -- you see this map is not
4 exactly how it looks in the village. The hill was here, above Bellacerka,
5 and the holes are still there; the positions that they took.
6 Q. No, we're not --
7 A. They have not been covered yet.
8 Q. We're not communicating, and I don't know whether it's a
9 translation problem or what it is. But what I want you to do is with that
10 pen draw a line along the route that the tanks travelled from the time
11 they were -- no, you're not listening to me --
12 A. The positions were above Bellacerka. The tanks -- well, you see,
13 I don't understand this map. And I can't really draw a line because I
14 don't understand it.
15 Q. So this doesn't look like your village to you?
16 A. No. I can only read Bellacerka. I cannot recognise the roads
17 here on the map; I don't understand them.
18 Q. Do you see --
19 A. The positions are still there above Bellacerka.
20 Q. I understand that. Do you see Celina?
21 A. The Celine village is very low here on the map, and in reality
22 it's in line with Bellacerka.
23 Q. So one of two things, I guess, is possible: Either this map is
24 wrong or you don't know anything about Bela Crkva and Celina. Are you
25 actually from there?
1 A. I was born in Bellacerka, raised there, and still live there. The
2 Serb positions are still there, they're still open, they have not been
3 covered. And until I leave, I will not allow anyone to cover them.
4 Q. All right.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Popaj, from Bela Crkva to Celine, how many
6 roads are there.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One and a half kilometre --
8 JUDGE BONOMY: But --
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There's only one road from
10 Bellacerka, but the road here is -- turns like this. But from Bellacerka,
11 it is a straight road. At the exit of Bellacerka, you can actually see
12 Celine; it's in a straight line.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Ackerman, on this map it looks as though
14 there are two roads.
15 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, I think this map was put together by UNMIK or
16 KFOR or somebody like that, probably properly done. I don't know. I
17 think the Prosecution has represented it to us as accurate. I suspect it
18 probably is.
19 Q. Aren't there two roads going from Bela Crkva to Celina, sir?
20 A. There is one road that goes to Celine from Bellacerka. And from
21 Rahovec, there is another road that goes to the place where the tanks were
22 positioned; a road that goes from Rahovec to Celine. And from Bellacerka,
23 there is only one road that goes to Celine.
24 Q. Is there any way you can mark on this map where the tanks were
25 positioned after they left your village?
1 A. The tanks were positioned above Naim Fetoshi's house. I really
2 don't understand this map, because this road to Brestovc, it's not close
3 to Bellacerka. Bernjaqa is only 500 metres away from Bellacerka.
4 Q. All right.
5 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I want a shot taken of this map --
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Bernjaqa is adjacent to Bellacerka,
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Just before we do this, Mr. Popaj, you'll see on
9 the map a railway line. You see the --
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: -- see the railway line. And you can see the --
12 and you can see --
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can see it very well.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: And you can see the Belaje stream which flows under
15 the railway line. Do you see that?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I can see it very well,
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Just above that you can see that there's sort of a
19 yellow -- yellow-orange coloured line that joins Bela Crkva to Celina,
20 which looks like a road, it's meant to be a road. Now --
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But this road from Bellacerka does
22 not take you to Celine, and the railway track are the same distance -- are
23 further from Bellacerka --
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, I understand that --
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- than Celine. Bernjaqa is 500
1 metres far from the house in Bellacerka.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, above that line there is another one with a
3 sort of bend on it which also goes on the map from Bela Crkva to Celine,
4 which looks like another road. Now, is that what you would say was the
5 road to Celine?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This road does not take you to
7 Celine. This road does not exist at all. The road from the village of
8 Bellacerka takes you straight to Celine. This road to Rahovec and to
9 Bernjaqa, above here were the positions, 150 metres far from the
10 positions, while this road here from Bellacerka to Celine is not correct.
11 It should be a straight line.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Ackerman, are there no photographs that
13 you could, perhaps, use that might assist?
14 MR. ACKERMAN: Not that I'm aware of, Your Honour. That one
15 photograph doesn't show all of the area that's necessary to make this
17 Q. You have made, Mr. Witness, some red dots. I don't know. It
18 looks like you made at least three red dots up along that main road. Is
19 that where the Serb positions were, by your testimony?
20 A. This should be the road that goes to Rahovec. Here is Naim
21 Fetoshi's house, and above his house were the positions. It should be
22 somewhere here.
23 Q. Okay. Draw a circle around that area that you have designated as
24 where the positions were.
25 A. Here, on this hill.
1 Q. All right. You made a small circle just north of the road, for
2 the record.
3 MR. ACKERMAN: All right. Now let's do a screen shot of this --
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Above the main road that goes to
6 MR. ACKERMAN: Screen shot, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: That will be IC99, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
9 Ms. Moeller.
10 MS. MOELLER: Your Honours, just in order to maybe assist with the
11 confusion about the roads. We just checked the legend in the Kosovo
12 atlas, and the fine red line is said to be a seasonal road/track, so that
13 may explain some of the confusion, maybe.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I doubt if it does because it's clear that
15 the witness envisages that there is a road from Bela Crkva to Celine, and
16 what it can be other than one of these seasonal tracks is difficult to see
17 here. But you'll have a chance to deal with that in re-examination, if
18 you wish.
19 Mr. Ackerman.
20 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Q. Now, the last question I want to ask you about this map, while
22 it's still on the screen, you told us in your statement that from these
23 bunkers there was automatic fire directed across the top of your village.
24 They were shooting over the tops of the houses as a warning, you believed,
25 that you should leave your houses. Now, from where they were shooting
1 over the top of your village, what is there over there on the other side
2 of your village in the direction they were shooting? What's located over
3 there? Just fields and that stream and things?
4 A. Where the bunkers were, it's only field there. There's no stream.
5 Q. And you didn't see any KLA soldiers leaving your village and
6 heading out that direction, the direction in which those shots were being
7 fired? You didn't see that?
8 A. There was no way I could go there, because this was five or six
9 days before the 25th. There was no way that I could go and check. From
10 the moment the NATO bombing started on the night of the 24th, the bursts
11 of fire did not stop. And, as I said, this map does not represent the
12 real positions of the villages. The road that goes to Celine is a road
13 through fields, not used by animals.
14 Q. All right.
15 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm finished with that exhibit now.
16 Q. Now, over the next several days, after the 25th of March --
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Just one minute.
18 MR. ACKERMAN: All right.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Just before you do, Mr. Ackerman.
20 Mr. Popaj, you say that the road to Celine goes through fields.
21 Now, when you say in your statement, "the tanks moved off," they were not
22 on that road.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. This is a road that goes to
1 Rahovec, that connects to the road to Rahovec and takes you to the hill.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
3 Mr. Ackerman.
4 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, I'm now further confused, Your Honour.
5 Q. Let me ask you again. I know you think this map is totally
6 inaccurate. Is there any way you can give us just a -- an approximation
7 of where the tanks parked, after they went through your village? Can you
8 find a place on that map that's anywhere representative of where you saw
9 those tanks parked on a hill?
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Is that not what the red circle is supposed to be?
11 MR. ACKERMAN: No. The red circle are the holes that were dug by
12 the Serb forces. The tanks went to Celina, he said, parked themselves on
13 a hill over there.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: No, parked on a hill overlooking Celina. That's
15 what you have to interrupt, and I thought that was the witness's
16 interpretation but I may be wrong. You should clarify what the red circle
18 MR. ACKERMAN:
19 Q. Sir, the red circle is where the bunkers were dug, isn't it. And
20 from where the firing was coming?
21 A. Yes. The trenches were above Bellacerka, while the tanks that
22 went in the direction of Celine. If you have a photograph, you can see a
23 cow-shed there where they positioned themselves. It's above Celine and
24 Bellacerka. Here is Bellacerka; here is Celine. They were on a hill
25 between Bellacerka and Celine.
1 Q. Halfway between or what?
2 A. From this hill, you can see Bellacerka and Celine on this side,
3 and you can see Nagavc on the other side. The positions are still there,
4 can be seen there. The stable or the cow-shed where they were positioned
5 can still be seen; it's still there.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: And to get to that position when they left the
7 village, did they go initially in the direction of Orahovac?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. They did not go on a main road
9 to Rahovec, but on the one that took you to the vineyards above Rahovec.
10 It's a small road that takes you to the vineyards. And that road takes a
11 turn and goes to the cow-shed where they took position. It's a bit of a
12 hill with oak trees.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
14 Mr. Ackerman.
15 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, Your Honour, I can't figure out a way to
16 clarify this any further.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: No. It's just possible that the description we've
18 been given is the upper-most of these two farm roads. But it's far from
19 clear, I agree.
20 MR. ACKERMAN:
21 Q. I want to go to another subject now. After the 25th of March, you
22 talk about in your statement - and I don't want to go into any detail at
23 all; this should be a fairly statement for you to answer - you talk about
24 finding and burying a number of bodies at very locations. My only
25 question about that is: Were you able to make a determination when you
1 observed these bodies whether they were killed by fire-arms or otherwise?
2 A. All of them were shot by fire-arms. The casings of the automatic
3 rifles were there, and I showed them to the investigators when we got the
4 bodies out.
5 Q. That's all I wanted to know. After you'd given your statement to
6 the Office of the Prosecutor, do you remember giving a statement to an
7 investigating judge in Prizren in a case against a gentleman by the name
8 of Andjelko Kolasinac from Orahovac? Do you remember doing that?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. According to a document that the OTP provided to us, what you said
11 in that interrogation, in that statement, to this investigating judge with
12 regard to the matters we've just been discussing was this:
13 "On the morning of 25 March 1999, around 3.00, I heard and saw
14 Serbian police and military troops entering the village of Bellacerke.
15 They arrived up to the village mosque and then moved in a direction of the
16 hill above the village. I woke up earlier and asked my family members to
17 prepare leave the village."
18 Now, nowhere that I was able to find in that statement that you
19 gave to this investigating judge did you say anything at all about tanks
20 coming to your village, did you?
21 A. They never asked. I didn't give this statement. It was my wife.
22 My wife was ill on the day, so I went in her stead. She was about to give
23 birth, and so it was me who went to give that statement. Fidaije Popaj,
24 that's the name on the statement.
25 Q. Well, the statement I have says the statement was given by Sabri
1 Popaj. Did you take a statement she'd written and just read it to them;
2 is that what you did?
3 A. My wife had to go to trial in Prizren because they'd taken the son
4 out of our hands, and we didn't have a doctor with us there.
5 Q. Okay. This is a question I ask just out of curiosity. I think
6 you told us there were 2.800 people that lived in your village. On page
7 6685 of the transcript of your testimony in Milosevic, the transcript says
8 there were 5.000 cattle in your village. Is that really true? Were there
9 really 5.000 cattle in a village of 2.800 people?
10 A. Yes, it is true. It was true because I had over 40. I've got 32
11 to this day and I had 180 sheep. I haven't mentioned that in my
12 statement, but even today you've got there over 1.500 sheep.
13 Q. Okay. Who is Muharrem Popaj from Bela Crkva?
14 A. Muharrem Popaj used to be my uncle; he's no longer alive, my
15 father's brother.
16 Q. And his father's name was Hidajet Popaj?
17 A. Hidajet Popaj. The son was Najit Popaj, not Muharrem Popaj.
18 Q. Well, I have information that there was a --
19 A. Najit Popaj is my aunt's son. My mother and his mother are
20 sisters. We live in adjacent houses.
21 Q. Let me tell you some information I have. I have information that
22 Hidaj Popaj, H-i-d-a-j, Popaj, was arrested by the KLA and that his son,
23 Muharrem Popaj, was making efforts in various places to try to get him
24 released. Do you know anything about this Popaj person being arrested by
25 the KLA?
1 A. I said this yesterday. He wasn't arrested by the KLA. He went to
2 see his mother in Pristina, and he was kidnapped by Serbian police and
3 disappeared. We found him last year. His remains were brought to me and
4 then he was buried. And that came from the mortuary at Rahovec. I took
5 his remains and buried it. It's about a year since then. We buried him
6 last December.
7 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I had asked yesterday for a check on
8 page 84, line 16, of the transcript, as to whether the translation was
9 accurate or not. It appears in the transcript and I was hoping I'd have
10 that this morning. Apparently it's not been finished yet.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, it should be. I was assured it would be.
12 Just give us a second to check.
13 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, it's apparently not complete, so you can have
15 a chance later. Hopefully it will be completed before the
16 cross-examination in total is finished.
17 MR. ACKERMAN: Okay. Thank you, Your Honour. I think what I'll
18 do is defer a series of questions that I have then on that issue until
19 that's available, if that's okay with Your Honour.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
21 Mr. Lukic.
22 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:
24 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Popaj. My name is Branko
25 Lukic. I have quite a few questions for you. Could you please focus and
1 give me as brief answers as possible, whenever you can. Let me ask you
2 this first: Do you distinguish colours?
3 A. Yes, I can see.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can I ask the registrar to show us
5 P93, page 6.
6 Q. Mr. Popaj, yesterday, when you spoke about this photograph, on
7 page 38, line 17, the Prosecutor asks you: [In English] "And the
8 camouflage uniform, which colour camouflage was it?"
9 [Interpretation] In lines 18 to 19, you answer:
10 [In English] "It was the colour you see in the photograph but it
11 was lighter than this."
12 [Interpretation] Could you see that colour on police uniforms, and
13 is it the same colour you can see on the drapes behind the Judges?
14 A. A bit lighter and camouflage.
15 Q. So it is the same colour as the colour of the drapes behind the
17 A. It's the same colour, but the clothes themselves, the uniform, was
18 camouflage. It was not uniform like that. Show them to me on the screen
19 here. I can't describe them just like that.
20 Q. Very well. Thank you. On page 45, you spoke of killings near the
21 bridge and say that people were forced to take their jackets off, that the
22 jackets were searched. How long did this search and robbing, thieving,
23 from the jackets last?
24 A. I wasn't there myself; I was hidden. I dared not get up, so I
25 stayed there, near the hole that was filled with water. I don't know how
1 long it lasted. I never checked my watch. And I still -- I still have
2 the jacket of my son which he left there on that bank; I still have it at
4 Q. Were you looking in that direction?
5 A. I was looking in that direction, but I haven't -- I was not able
6 to see them when they put them in the direction of the stream; I saw them
7 on the banks.
8 Q. Can you tell us roughly, since you were looking in that direction,
9 how long the searching of those people lasted.
10 A. I have no idea. I didn't check my watch. I saw them when they
11 put them above the railway tracks, put in a line and made to take off
12 their clothes. Some of the clothes were left behind; some were put on.
13 And I still have the clothes of the people who were killed there.
14 Q. Mr. Popaj, when I ask you how long something lasted, could you
15 just answer me how long it took rather than describe the whole event,
16 because you have already done that in your statement. You said that you
17 were even looking through binoculars. How many people did you see on the
18 bridge and near the bridge at that moment?
19 A. I wasn't able to count them. About half the village was there.
20 They separated the women from the others, and some were left in the last
21 group and taken to the direction of Xerxe. Only the young children were
22 left near Belaje, and the young children and the women were sent in the
23 direction of the tracks. And people were able to tell who they were.
24 Some are still alive, some elderly people still. My mother, my wife, my
25 father, they were all separated. I have no idea how long it took. I know
1 when we were executed because I could hear the volleys of all the bursts
2 of gun-fire.
3 Q. At that moment were you able to see that large group of people at
4 the moment when the people were searched, when their jackets were taken
5 off? Were civilians present there at the same time?
6 A. The civilians who were separated, yes, they were. But they were
7 unable to see them take their clothes off. It was only the mother, the
8 wife, and my father who saw them when they were executed. And I have
9 pointed the sign where they were. There's a sign there, there's a
10 permanent sign. Sometimes they take it off, but I go there and re-insert
11 it, put it back there. It's near the railway track.
12 Q. Now I'll ask you something regarding page 60 of your statement.
13 It concerns the moment when, as you say, all the three mosques were blown
14 up, something that you saw. On page 60, line 19, you say:
15 [In English] "In the field between Celine and Bellacerka."
16 [Interpretation] The next page, 61, line 5, you say:
17 [In English] "We were there at the side of the mountain. That's
18 what we call it."
19 [Interpretation] So my question is: Were you in the field or were
20 you on top of a hill when you were observing this? Which of these is
22 A. It was at Breg; it was near. That is my field. That's the field,
23 three and a half hectares; two are on the hilly bit, and the rest of it is
24 further down.
25 Q. So is it a hill or a field?
1 A. Half of it is a plain field and the rest of it is hilly.
2 MS. MOELLER: Your Honour --
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Listen to the answer, Mr. Lukic. It's a field,
4 part of which is on a hill.
5 MR. LUKIC: I was trying to get from him whether he was in the
6 field or on the hill.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: That's not the question. The question is: Was it
8 a hill or a field? That may a mistranslation, but it's what came through
9 to me.
10 MR. LUKIC: I'll try again, Your Honour, if I may.
11 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Popaj, at that moment were you on a hill or
12 in a field?
13 A. That's my field. It begins on -- and is a plain field, and then
14 the hill begins. And I wasn't up or down; I was at the foot. That's
15 where I was and that's where I could observe from. There were those, me
16 and the others, who did the exhumation in that particular spot.
17 Q. At that moment, is that what you're trying to say, at the moment
18 when these mosques were blown up, you were not alone; there was somebody
19 else there with you?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Thank you. On page 79, you speak of those three members of the
22 KLA from your village who existed, as you were told, but you never learned
23 their names. Because, as you say, you were in the mountains with cattle
24 until 1998. When did you climb down from the mountains together with your
1 A. What I said was that every year I go up to the Bjeshket e Jasharit
2 up on the top of the mountain. I've done that since 1973. I did it this
3 year. I stayed there for about two years. I go there every year on the
4 21st of May and I return on the 20th of October.
5 Q. You said you climbed down from the mountains in 1998. When I'm
6 interested in something that you did in earlier years, I will ask you
7 that. In 1998, when did you come back from the mountain?
8 A. I told you that every year we descend there from the 20th of
9 September to the 20th of October. This year, for instance, we did it on
10 the 20th of October.
11 Q. Thank you. From the 20th of October until the 24th of March when,
12 let's say, the NATO bombing began and the 25th, when this happened in your
13 village, in those six months you did not find out the names of those three
14 men. Is that your evidence today?
15 A. I wasn't interested. In the very morning I take the animals out.
16 I did have sheep then; I don't have them anymore. We were too scared to
17 go to the hills over there, but we went in the direction of Celine.
18 Q. Very well. Thank you. We'll come back to this. You know that
19 there was a book published in Kosovo titled, "Fenikset e Lirise." Is that
21 A. I don't know. I don't read; I'm not a politician. I don't read
23 Q. You followed the trial of now late Slobodan Milosevic, and you
24 listened to the testimony of Bozidar Delic. Is that correct?
25 A. No, I did not. When I came here to testify in the Milosevic
1 trial, I came straight from the top of the mountain. I left the animals
2 there and came here to testify on the 28th of May, 2002, and returned on
3 the 14th of June, 2002.
4 Q. Is it correct that with the investigators of the Office of the
5 Prosecutor on the 29th of June, 2005, you discussed the testimony of
6 Bozidar Delic, including the book titled, "Phoenixes of Freedom,"
7 "Fenikset e Lirise," in Albanian. Do you remember that?
8 A. I've never seen that book.
9 Q. Very well. Is then your evidence today that you did not speak to
10 investigators of the OTP on the 29th of June, 2005?
11 A. I cannot remember speaking to them in 2005.
12 Q. Very well. An investigator of the Office of the Prosecutor,
13 Ljubomir Jozefciak - at least according to the documents we received from
14 the Prosecution and which is entered in the system under 6D105 - it is
15 said that in this report we received from the Prosecution, we have
16 comments made by Mr. Sabri Popaj that he made after being shown the
17 publication "Fenikset e Lirise," published in Pristina in 2002.
18 In this statement, it is said that you discussed the book and the
19 affiliation of certain members of your family to the KLA, as stated in the
20 said book. Do you now remember this conversation with the investigators
21 of the Prosecution, Mr. Popaj?
22 A. I remember seeing someone, but I didn't ask whether he was an
23 investigator. I do remember now. I don't know his name. I don't know
24 who it was, and he asked, "Why have we written somewhere at the graveyards
25 that someone was a Martyr," and in fact they weren't. And that has been
1 taken off the tombstones, and I know what you're referring to. Yes, that
2 one came to see me.
3 Q. That's not what I asked you, not at all what I mean. I'm just
4 asking you if you remember the conversation.
5 A. I understand it now. I do remember it now. I don't know the
6 of that person --
7 Q. Thank you. We'll come back to that later. I'll ask you something
8 different now. In your statement of the 12th June 1999, you say that you
9 gave food and money to the KLA. Did anybody force you to do that, or did
10 you do that of your own will?
11 A. Out of our own free will; the whole of the village did that.
12 Q. Did the villagers from your village help the KLA in the same way?
13 A. Those who had something to give; those who didn't, didn't.
14 Q. Thank you. I will now have to ask a couple of questions that our
15 Chamber designates as the Milosevic-style question, but that will take
16 only a few minutes. Do you know that the attacks against the police in
17 your village started already on the 18th of March, 1998, when a patrol of
18 the traffic police was attacked?
19 A. That is not true.
20 Q. So you claim that on the 18th of March, 1998, there was no such
21 attack in your village?
22 A. No, there wasn't.
23 Q. Very well. And do you know that on the night of the 18th of July,
24 1998, in the village of Bela Crkva, there was several terrorist attacks
25 against the police, using automatic weapons, rocket-launchers, mortars,
1 light machine-guns, and snipers, on which occasion the KLA blocked the
2 road from Zerze to Orahovac. Do you remember that?
3 A. At that particular time I was up in the mountains, and I know that
4 the road to Rahovec had been sealed off.
5 Q. Do you know who sealed off that road?
6 A. I wasn't there; I said that. But I know on that particular day
7 the whole of the village had left. And on that particular day they killed
8 my wife's uncle, Ibrahim Popaj, born in 1916, Hajzizi Popaj, Hamita Popaj,
9 and Ravia Popaj. I was up in the mountains. I say that, and I returned
10 after, in the afternoon.
11 Q. All right. We see that you say that the population of the village
12 moved that day. Also in the Milosevic trial, on page 6683, line 2, you
14 [In English] "Has positions on the 22nd of March and 80 per cent
15 of the people had already left."
16 A. They left on March the 24th.
17 Q. [Interpretation] I haven't yet asked you anything. In which part
18 of the village were the remaining 20 per cent of the inhabitants of your
19 village who, as you say, remained after the 24th of March, 1999, or the 20
20 per cent remaining were scattered all over the village?
21 A. They were on the lower part of the village, not on the side where
22 the bunkers and positions were. It's towards my house where -- as the
23 photograph shows, they were all there, whilst the upper part of the
24 village had all left.
25 Q. Thank you. You say there was no KLA in the village. You also say
1 on page English version 3, paragraph 2; Albanian version page 3, paragraph
2 4, you say that the policemen and soldiers fired above
3 roof-tops, and you understood that as a warning that you should leave the
4 village. Is it the case that in the forests overlooking the village there
5 were members of the KLA?
6 A. There were no members of the KLA. It could be seen when the
7 volleys of gun-fire were fired from there, and you could see from the
8 village of Bellacerka where the first houses started burning. And this
9 was the house of Xhem Gashi and Ymer Gashi. These were the first houses
10 to be burned on that particular morning.
11 Q. It suffices to say you assert that there was no KLA in the forest
12 overlooking your village.
13 A. They were not in the village. There was KLA but not in the
14 village of KLA. They were where the positions were, and they had units in
15 Drenovc and Reti. Drenovc is 14 kilometres, while Reti, 16 kilometres,
16 far from my village.
17 Q. Very well, thank you. In your statement you also say that you
18 were helping the Zhuniqi family as well as the Spahiu family to cross the
19 river -- to cross the river Belaje. Did you do this regularly? Were you
20 tasked with helping people cross the stream?
21 A. No, that was not my task. But as I was there, I heard the cry of
22 this child and went in that direction to see who was there. So I saw the
23 Zhuniqi and Spahiu family there, and I helped them cross. And Xhemail
24 Spahiu did not cross but he remained on this side.
25 Q. I asked you whether you were tasked with that; you said no, and
1 that is the answer to my question. Thank you.
2 How come you were not with your family on that day?
3 A. I didn't want to go. I wanted to stay there because my cattle was
4 at home. When I went to help the Spahiu family, after that I returned
6 Q. And you say that after that you were in the field, close to an
7 electricity pole.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Would you allow for the possibility that the electricity pole is
10 much closer to the river than you have marked it on the map. Electricity
11 poles are basically by the river itself.
12 A. The electricity pylon is still there, where I was hiding. We did
13 not remove it. It's on the field, on my field. And the hole from where
14 we water the field is there.
15 Q. This is precisely what I wanted to ask you. In the field there
16 are some holes, dug-outs. Is that what you're trying to tell us?
17 A. That is an irrigation canal. The pylon has been cut, but it's
18 about 1 metre tall. I did not remove it. It's on my field, and I go to
19 work on that field every day.
20 Q. I'll ask you again: Are there any holes in the field, and did you
21 use them to hide there? Or were you standing out in the open?
22 A. You can find holes at every 50 metres, where the outlets to start
23 the water are. They're about 1 metre or 1 metre and 20 centimetres deep,
24 and we go down there to turn on the outlets for the water.
25 Q. Therefore, in your view, these are not shelters which had been dug
1 to be used by the members of the KLA.
2 A. They were not dug by the KLA. They were dug by the people who
3 built the Radonjic system, the irrigation system. Every field has these
4 holes, the entire plain, up to Vandoviqe [phoen]. I can even tell you, if
5 necessary, who built that system.
6 MR. LUKIC: Would it be a convenient time, Your Honour?
7 JUDGE BONOMY: No. I envisaged, Mr. Lukic, that we would go on
8 until ten to.
9 MR. LUKIC: That's perfectly fine with me. I just wanted to
10 check. Thank you.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: We'll do an hour and a half before the break.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. At page 3 in the English, paragraph 6 - and in the Albanian, this
14 is paragraph 3, page 4, as well as page 3, paragraph 4 of the B/C/S - you
15 talk about the approach of some armed Serbs. This was a group of 14
16 people. These policemen, did they follow the people from the same
17 direction or did they come from another direction?
18 A. I can show you on the map from which direction they came. I can
19 mark it with a pen.
20 Q. You can tell us whether they came from the direction of Bela Crkva
21 or from some other direction?
22 A. From the direction of Bellacerka, and they followed the line of
23 the Belaje stream.
24 Q. Therefore, they did not come from the direction of Rogovo.
25 A. No. They came from Bellacerka village.
1 Q. Thank you. Therefore, if someone were to say that they came from
2 the direction of Rogovo, they would not be telling the truth.
3 A. Nobody came from Rugova. On the main road Prizren-Gjakova, they
4 were there, the police and army, the Serbian police and army, and they
5 were firing from there. But they did not go to the scene, to the spot
7 Q. Thank you. I'm trying to compare your statement to that of Isuf
8 Zhuniqi. Thank you.
9 Next, you describe a group of people by the railway bridge. I'm
10 interested in the following: What was the position of your son Shendet,
11 when he was shot, since you say you saw that moment?
12 MS. MOELLER: Your Honour --
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not see them shoot at him.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Moeller.
15 MS. MOELLER: Yes, I'm actually objecting to that. I think the
16 witness did say explicitly in his testimony that he did not see the moment
17 when the men were shot; he just saw his son when they were searched.
18 MR. LUKIC: But --
19 JUDGE BONOMY: I, if you look at the second-last paragraph on page
20 4, which was changed, I understand that he saw his brother being executed
21 and the position of his son was unclear after that change was made. So is
22 there a reason why he can't explore that?
23 MS. MOELLER: No, I think there is no reason why it can't be
24 explored, but I think it's not correct to put to the witness that he said
25 that he saw his son being shot, because he didn't say that yesterday, to
1 my recollection.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.
3 Well, could you clarify that, please, with the witness, Mr. Lukic.
4 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Popaj, did you see your son being fired at?
6 A. No, not when they fired at him. But when they took the group of
7 people to the position where they executed, that's when I could see them.
8 But when they took them down to the stream itself, I could no longer see
9 that because the bank was steep.
10 Q. You saw your brother being shot at; is that correct?
11 A. They executed all of them at the same time. When I went close to
12 that area, I found my son killed near my brother Nesim, while Agon --
13 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't catch the last name of
14 the person.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation].
16 Q. Thank you. Therefore, you didn't see your brother being shot
18 A. I didn't see any of them when they were shot at, but I could hear
19 the gun-fire.
20 Q. Thank you. You saw policemen with bands around their heads, on
21 their foreheads. Did you used to see any other policemen with the
22 sweat-bands before?
23 A. No, not with scarves. I saw them with scarves on that day.
24 Q. Did you recognise any of them?
25 A. No, I didn't. I could not see them. And when they executed
1 Fetoshi, they were with their faces turned towards Fetoshi. I could only
2 see their backs. There's no way I could recognise them.
3 Q. You saw their backs. Did you see any insignia on their uniforms,
4 before or afterwards?
5 A. No, I did not see their insignia. I could see them talk on the
6 radios because they had radios.
7 Q. Thank you. You also state that you saw policemen wearing white
8 surgical gloves. Did you indeed see policemen wearing white surgical
10 A. We found the gloves there when we exhumed the bodies, and we found
11 syringes there. These gloves were collected by the investigators who were
12 present when the exhumation took place. You can ask them.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: That's not an answer to the question, Mr. Popaj.
14 The question was: Did you actually see policemen wearing white surgical
15 gloves, which is what your statement says.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I found them near the bodies,
17 because as they were leaving, after having executed the group, they threw
18 the gloves. And we also found syringes there and injections, and we gave
19 everything to the investigators involved in the investigation.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Did you actually see them throwing the gloves?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said in my statement that I was
22 told by Sari Zhuniqi, who was hiding a little bit further up. I saw these
23 gloves when the bodies were exhumed, together with the cartridge cases.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic, which paragraph is this?
25 MR. LUKIC: That's paragraph in English version, Your Honour, page
1 3, paragraph 6; in Albanian version, page 4, paragraph 3. It's the last
2 sentence of this paragraph.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, the answer now is that he did not see this,
4 that --
5 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: -- this is what he has subsequently concluded from
7 what was subsequently found.
8 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Q. [Interpretation] In your statement you say that the shooting in
10 village lasted not only all day, all that day, but for an entire month.
11 Is that correct?
12 A. That's correct, until the 4th of May, when they burned the last
13 houses belonging to Muharrem Zhuniqi. And on that day, they forced the
14 people of Xerxe out of their houses.
15 Q. Why did the shooting last all day long, since there were no
16 civilians in the village, there was no KLA presence in the village, in
17 your words? Were Serbs shooting at each other?
18 A. No. They were shooting in case there was someone there. They
19 would come in in a truck who belonged to a Gashi, and they could load that
20 truck with things that they plundered. They took the truck and never
21 returned it.
22 Q. Is it your transcript today that the Serbs who were there opened
23 fire on empty Albanian houses or directed their fire against the nearby
24 forest or at the burned-down houses? What was they shooting at?
25 A. I went back to my burned house on many occasions, and I could
1 recognise Serbs from Rahovec. I have not mentioned their names, but they
2 entered the house and they plundered. And I know exactly by name who
3 stole my truck. And he called me last year and told me that I could go
4 and get my truck in Serbia.
5 Q. [No interpretation] --
6 MR. LUKIC: Sorry.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Popaj, for a period of a month until the 4th of
8 May, what were they shooting at?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were not shooting at anyone.
10 They were shooting in the air; the thought that there might be someone in
11 the village. They would go inside houses and loot them. I could see them
12 looting the house of Muharrem Zhuniqi. They would load the truck with the
13 things they have looted, and they would drive off. And on the last day
14 they also carried the things that they had looted in my vehicle. They
15 stole three vehicles; my truck, Muharrem Gashi's truck, and another
16 person's truck.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic.
18 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Q. [Interpretation] I didn't ask you about the presence of the KLA,
20 since you said that you were in the mountains after March. I think we
21 spoke about the 18th of June, 1998. In this case we intend to show - and
22 this is our Defence's position which I'm putting to you now - that your
23 village and its surrounding area was a stronghold of the KLA. This can be
24 deducted from the Albanian documents that we possess. One of the
25 documents confirming that is the very book we began discussing, the name
1 of which is "Fenikset e Lirise."
2 In that book, among other members of the KLA who were killed,
3 there are also the names of some of your family members. You mentioned
4 that in the statement we received from the OTP, when you spoke to their
5 investigator on the 29th of October, 2006 -- no, I apologise. It was in
6 June 2002. At page 23 of the book - and it bears the ERN number
7 00088083 - there is a person by the name of Alban R. Popaj mentioned
9 In the statement concerning your interview with an OTP
10 investigator dated the 29th of June, 2005, you mentioned this person, and
11 you said he was your brother's son; your brother's name was Remzi. Is
12 that correct? Do you recall that?
13 A. Yes. He asked me that they appeared in the book as KLA members,
14 and I told him they were not. And I also told him I didn't know who wrote
15 that book.
16 Q. This exhibit is number D105. If you wish to see it, I can show
17 you some of the pages of the document, although I don't believe there is
18 any need for it for the time being. For the transcript, the exhibit
19 number is 6D104. Thank you. On the same list in the same book there is a
20 name of Nesim S. Popaj at page 75 of the book. He was from Bela Crkva.
21 You identified him as your brother when you spoke to the OTP
22 investigators. Is that correct?
23 A. Yes. I told him that he was my brother, but they were not KLA
24 soldiers. And this is what I told him.
25 Q. On the same list at page 94, there is a Shendet S. Popaj, and this
1 was your son. Is that correct?
2 A. Yes, he is my son.
3 Q. Among the KLA members from your village, at least according to the
4 book, bearing the last name of Popaj, we also have the following persons:
5 At page 67, Mehmet I. Popaj, you identified him as your neighbour; at page
6 86, Sahit V. Popaj, another neighbour of yours; at page 98, Xhavit S.
7 Popaj, born 1969; and at page 111, Kreshnik Popaj. You know all of these
8 people, and they were all your relatives and neighbours. Is that correct?
9 A. Yes, they are my relatives and neighbours, my first cousins and so
10 on. But this has wrote -- someone has wrote this book and made them look
11 as if they were KLA soldiers, but they were not. How can my son be a
12 member of the KLA when he was only 17? The same can be said for
13 Kreshnik. Even my youngest son was listed in the book. How could he have
14 been a KLA member when he was only 14?
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Lukic, we will take the break.
16 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: You should bear in mind what we've said earlier
18 about the extent to which, in cross-examination, when time is limited,
19 some issues should be explored. I acknowledge, though, that obtaining
20 confirmation of the identity of certain people as related to the witness
21 is important so that they can be tied to the schedule. But on the general
22 proposition about the presence of the KLA in the village, the witness's
23 position is clear; whether it's true is another matter, but it's clear.
24 So we'll resume at 11.15.
25 Mr. Popaj, the usher will show you where to wait while we have our
1 break; it will be a break of about 20 minutes.
2 [The witness stands down]
3 --- Recess taken at 10.52 a.m.
4 --- On resuming at 11.17 a.m.
5 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, before the witness comes in, if I may.
6 Why I'm exploring all these names, among other things, is that you
7 ordered the Prosecution to revise the list and to see whether to leave the
8 list as it is or not or change -- or to change it. So I think that's our
9 last chance, actually, to check with this witness if he knows the identity
10 of some inhabitants of his village enumerated as the KLA fighters.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: I acknowledged that when I spoke at the end of the
12 last session. But it's quite a different thing to invite the Prosecution
13 to amend the list to reflect all who were killed or delete any who were
14 not killed from suggesting amendment because a person killed may have had
15 a particular status or have been doing a certain thing. That will be a
16 matter for us to judge. The schedule is simply a reflection of the people
17 killed, and you're not, I think, disputing that these people were killed.
18 MR. LUKIC: No, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: All I'm suggesting is that sort of detail I
20 understand you pursuing, but the generality is of doubtful value, bearing
21 in mind how often the witness has made his position on that clear.
22 [The witness takes the stand]
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Q. I will try now, Mr. Popaj, to speed things up, and I will only ask
1 you whether the following people are familiar to you, who are also
2 designated in the same book as members of the KLA, and it is stated that
3 they were born and died in Bela Crkva: Agim E. Kelmendi; Fatos Zhuniqi;
4 Kasim S. Zhuniqi; Eshref Zhuniqi; and Ramiz Krasniqi. Do you know these
6 A. I do not know Ramiz Krasniqi. There is no Krasniqi in Bellacerka.
7 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Could I ask for a clarification, please. Is the
8 witness saying that he knows the Zhuniqis?
9 MR. LUKIC: Should I ask the witness or are you asking him, Your
11 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: You can go ahead and ask. Thank you.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Are the other persons whose names I read out to you familiar to
14 you as residents of your village?
15 A. Yes, I do know them. Fatos Zhuniqi was a professor of the English
16 language and he continued teaching until the 24th. He was not a member of
17 the KLA. Eshref Zhuniqi was an elderly man. Kasim Zhuniqi or Kelmendi
18 was not even in the village; he wasn't killed in the village either, Agim
19 Kelmendi. I have no idea where he was killed. And the rest of them, no,
20 they were not members of the KLA. Fatos Zhuniqi was executed alongside
21 his own son, 14 years of age, Labinoti.
22 Q. Very well. In the third category of KLA fighters who have fallen,
23 according to this book, we find names of people who are not from Bela
24 Crkva, but it is stated next to their names that they died in the fighting
25 in Bela Crkva, that they got killed in the fighting. So I'm asking you:
1 Did you have occasion to meet any one of them? Mrs. Afridita S. Bokshin,
2 did you know her?
3 A. No, I do not know her.
4 Q. Saim a-Gashi from Drenovaca?
5 A. No, I do not know him.
6 Q. Hadija M. Spahiu from Rahovec?
7 A. I found Hadija Spahiu at the house of Nurije Kelmendi. She was
8 killed there and I buried her. I did not recognise who she was. I found
9 her. She'd been raped and massacred. And only after the exhumation it
10 was possible to identify her as Hadija Spahiu, from Rahovec.
11 Q. Eparem A. Thaqi?
12 A. He doesn't come from my village. I don't know him.
13 Q. He is from Landovica, but he got killed in your village.
14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Perparem A. Thaqi.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is not true.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Sakip X. Bellaqa from Patacani.
18 A. There is no family with the surname of Bellaqa there. We don't
19 have one.
20 Q. Exactly. That's a man from Pataqane, but according to this book,
21 he got killed in the fighting in your village; that's why I am asking if
22 you had ever met him.
23 A. I never knew him. There are some Bellaqas in the upper Pataqane.
24 There are two Pataqanes. And I did not know this man.
25 Q. Very well. There are several more names but I am not going
1 through them with you.
2 In your statement given to an investigator of the Tribunal on the
3 29th of June, 2005, you state that it is impossible for your son Agon
4 Popaj to be named in that book because he had never been a member of the
5 KLA. He wasn't even 14 at the time. I did not find the name of your son
6 Agon Popaj in this book. I don't know if you did and why you mentioned
7 him, too, when you discussed this book.
8 A. The investigator told me that in that book there are all kinds of
9 names, including your small -- your little child, your little son. And I
10 told him that it wasn't possible for Skender or Agon to be there. And I
11 asked him who had written about it but he didn't tell me.
12 Q. Very well. You said that he put himself on the KLA list as a
13 volunteer, although he wasn't even 14. Is that correct?
14 A. That is not correct. He was at school, and his teacher of English
15 was Fatos Zhuniqi. He taught him in year 7 of the primary school.
16 Q. Very well. When you were burying those people, why did you decide
17 to bury them in a mass grave? Why didn't you bury them in individual
19 A. Because it was impossible for us to take them to the graveyard
20 because of the police, so we had to bury them in the night, on the night
21 of the 27th.
22 Q. That night, when you were burying those people, were there any
23 members of the Serb forces in your village?
24 A. In the middle of the village and up in the hills.
25 Q. You marked some bodies by placing their names in little bottles;
1 however, you marked only 17 bodies in this way. Why not all?
2 A. There weren't enough bottles going around, and that is why we put
3 pieces of paper with their names. Every one of them had a piece of paper.
4 There were only 17 bottles and we used them.
5 Q. On page, English version, 7, paragraph 3; in Albanian, page 9,
6 paragraph, you say the following:
7 "Feim Popaj, the son of my uncle, one of the survivors from the
8 massacre at the stream, told me that he recognised two of the policemen
9 who did the shooting and killing. Those were Zlatko Bozanic and another
10 one who's first name is Dejan."
11 You say, "I know these two policemen or I recognised these two
12 policemen," but then you go on to say, "I didn't recognise them at the
13 time because I was too far away."
14 Did you see those men at that moment or heard from someone else
15 that they were there?
16 A. The statement says that the news came from my uncle's son, Feimi,
17 who was able to recognise them and people were lined up to the to the
18 executed. Zlatko Bozanic was the one.
19 Q. Is Zlatko Bozanic from Opterusa?
20 A. Yes, yes.
21 Q. You know that Serbs from Opterusa were expelled back in 1998?
22 A. I don't know.
23 Q. Do you know that Serbs from Opterusa were kidnapped and killed in
24 1998, and the assaults were led by KLA commander Haxhi Mazreku, who was,
25 by the way, a member of the military police of the KLA?
1 A. I don't know. I didn't know who Haxhi Mazreku was.
2 Q. Do you know that in 1998 Serbs were kidnapped and killed from
3 Opterusa, a place where this Bosko Bozanic comes from?
4 A. You can ask Muzreku to come here and explain about it. I told you
5 that during 1998 I was not there, up until October.
6 Q. Very well. Thank you. So after October you did not hear of
7 anything like that happening, or maybe you know that something happened
8 before October?
9 A. I don't know what you're talking about; it's not clear to me.
10 Q. All right. I'll abandon this area. We'll move on to something
11 different. In your statement on page 7 of the English version, paragraph
12 7; and page 10, paragraph 1 of the Albanian version you say:
13 "Hysni Zhuniqi and his nephews, Mehdi Zhuniqi and Akim Zhuniqi" -
14 and there's one unintelligible part of the translation - "I suppose and
15 believe that those people were killed at the time that I heard that
16 shooting five minutes after the first execution that I'd seen. I left
17 those bodies where they were and went back to Xerxe."
18 Among those names you include Hysni Zhuniqi from Bela Crkva?
19 A. There was six people all in all. Yufan Popaj and Sadet Popaj,
20 first cousins; Hysni Zhuniqi, Delvish; Hajram Labega; Memohmdi Zhuniqi;
21 Negev Zhuniqi. Six people in all. This was on a different day, Muharrem
22 Zhuniqi told me:
23 "I heard the volleys of gun-fire, but I couldn't see them being
24 killed. After the burial, the people killed in the big massacre I
25 returned and saw the bodies of these people. It is not on the same day.
1 I did hear the volleys of gun-fire, but I wasn't aware that they'd been
2 killed. I found them on the day that I buried them, that is on the 27th
3 of March."
4 Q. Very well. Thank you then. Among those people, according to you,
5 there was Hysni Zhuniqi?
6 A. Yes. Hysni Zhuniqi born in 1937 --
7 JUDGE BONOMY: That's twice, Mr. Lukic, you've made that point,
8 and it's a quite unnecessary proposition to put. And it leads to the
9 witness going on at length explaining yet again what is obvious to us all
10 or adding a little bit more. It's better if you put a question, rather
11 than a proposition prior to the question, and incorporate the proposition
12 into your question; then we won't have this time being consumed by
13 unnecessary repetition.
14 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Q. [Interpretation] Do you know that Hysni Zhuniqi from Bela Crkva
16 succumbed to his injuries in the health care centre in Prizren. And he
17 was killed by NATO bombs on the 2nd of April, 1999, together with ten
18 persons, out of whom these were identified: Qazim Krasniqi, his father's
19 name Isa, from Mala Hoca; Makmuud Krasniqi from Mala Hoca; and Elshan
20 Hysni from Nagales village.
21 A. Hysni Juniqi, born in 1971, he was the one who was killed, while
22 Hysni Sulejman Zhuniqi is a different person and he was born in 1937. He
23 was buried in Prizren, but I exhumed the body in Prizren. And I buried
24 him on July the 5th, alongside the group that was exhumed in 1999.
25 Q. I was guided by your observation that there were no two persons
1 with the same name in your village, and I supposed --
2 A. The first name is not the same, though. The first one was called
3 Husen not Hysni. Husen and Hysni are quite different.
4 Q. I have the same spelling of the name for both of them, but never
5 mind. We'll move on.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, which --
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have got it here in these papers,
8 on the original, and I've got every detail recorded of the burial.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, which one is Husen?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Husen was killed in Nagavc. Hysni
11 died in the canal alongside six other people. And the name is Husen Ahmet
12 Zhuniqi; Ahmet being his father's name.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
14 Mr. Lukic.
15 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 The name I have for Nagavc is Hysni, but we can clarify it
17 hopefully in some other way.
18 Q. [Interpretation] At that time you were moving towards Celina,
19 towards Zerze. Is it your testimony today that on the 25th, the 26th, the
20 27th, the 28th, the 29th, and all the way up to the 2nd of April there was
21 no fighting in the area of your village and those other villages between
22 Serb forces and the KLA?
23 A. No, there wasn't. There were no people either in the village,
24 with the exception of the police and the army.
25 Q. Very well. Thank you. I'll just ask you one more thing. In the
1 Milosevic trial, when you spoke about the moment when you saw 12
2 policemen, you say that on the other side of the river you did not see how
3 many policemen there were; however, the fact is they were paramilitaries
4 from Serbia. Did you see paramilitaries, in fact, there?
5 A. Yes, I did, sir. It was the paramilitaries who did the execution
6 of the 74 people from the village; it wasn't me who did the execution.
7 Q. Thank you. Let us just come back to the moment when you were
8 going through the border-crossing. Five of you handed in your documents.
9 Other members of your group did not produce documents. May we conclude
10 that at that moment neither you, nor anyone else in your group were
11 searched for documents. The only documents taken from you were those you
12 handed in yourselves.
13 A. They asked us to surrender our IDs. I didn't have them. There
14 were some five people; most of them are women and children. And there's
15 only five of us.
16 Q. But you were not searched; that's only -- that's the only thing I
17 want to know.
18 A. No, no. They just chucked them away and burned those five IDs
19 that they took from people.
20 Q. Thank you, Mr. Popaj. I have no further questions for you.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
23 Mr. Bakrac -- Mr. Cepic, I'm sorry.
24 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think I will take this
25 witness, but I believe Mr. Ackerman wants to finish his examination before
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well.
3 Mr. Ackerman.
4 MR. CEPIC: Thank you.
5 MR. ACKERMAN: Thanks, Your Honour.
6 Cross-examination by Mr. Ackerman: [Continued]
7 Q. Mr. Popaj, I have just very little more to ask you about, and
8 before I ask you another question, I have to give you information. The
9 way the system works here is there is an audio-recording, or video- and
10 audio-recording, made of your testimony at the time you give it, so we
11 have an audio record of what you said in answer to questions. You might
12 recall yesterday that I asked the Judge to have that audio record checked
13 with regard to what you said about the shell fragments or bomb fragments
14 from Nagavc. Do you remember that?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And so that was done, and what we're told by the translators today
17 is what you said was this: "It is a clear proof that the fragments of the
18 bomb exist, are there. We have them. They were in Nagavc village, where
19 the bombing occurred. We have them, the fragments of the shell. I have
20 them at home." And then you talk about when the bombing happened and you
21 say: "We have the shells there. The investigators themselves have seen
23 Later, in your testimony yesterday, you said, no, you didn't have
24 those fragments at your home, that they were in the home, in Nagavc, of a
25 gentleman named Feim Elshani. My question is: Why did you tell us you
1 had them at your home if you didn't have them there? What was your
2 purpose in telling that untruth?
3 A. I said -- I did not mean me, in person. I said, "We do have
4 them," and "we" means many more people, which means in our houses. But
5 they are being stored at Feim Elshani's house. He's the one who came to
6 testify on that matter.
7 Q. Well --
8 A. I did not mean me, in person; I meant we, in total.
9 Q. Well, you know, the thing you can't do is challenge your own words
10 that we have recorded here in this courtroom, and your own words were, "I
11 have them at home," and then you told us that the investigators had seen
12 them, presumably at your home. That's all not true, is it?
13 A. They took pictures of them, of the bomb fragments that fell
14 there. I should do the same, on my way back, and fax them anew should the
15 need arise.
16 Q. Were you there when they took pictures of them?
17 A. Yes. When we got them, we hid them; and upon our return, we did
18 find them again.
19 Q. And where was it that the pictures were taken? Where were these
20 fragments located when investigators from the Tribunal took pictures of
22 A. In Nagavc.
23 Q. Where in Nagavc?
24 A. At Feim Elshani's house.
25 Q. You went to Mr. Elshani's house shortly after this incident
1 occurred of these bombings and explosions, didn't you?
2 A. Not immediately, but on the following day, in the morning, because
3 when it happened it was 20 to 2.00 in the morning.
4 Q. I understand. Did you see his backyard?
5 A. The whole of the village was there, including the backyard. We
6 did not go inside, though. But on the following day I saw my father's
7 sister, Sajimi Kastrati, there. She had been killed there and I did bury
8 her in the courtyard of --
9 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter couldn't catch that name.
10 MR. ACKERMAN:
11 Q. Did you see any craters from these bombs in Nagavc?
12 A. Of course we did.
13 Q. How many; do you remember? How big were they?
14 A. I never measured the size of the craters. All the houses of
15 Nagavc had no tiles on, no roof tiles on. All had fallen down.
16 Q. Do you have any idea how many craters you saw and about what size
17 they were? That's all I'm asking you about is craters.
18 A. I have no idea how big they were. But, again, not a single house
19 had its roof tiles on in that village as a result of the bombing.
20 Q. In the Milosevic trial, you testified on 11 June 2002, at page
21 6693, and you were asked about this bombing. You said that you had gone
22 there, and then you said this: "But we found pieces of the explosion. We
23 hid them and KFOR took these pieces." That's what you said in Milosevic,
24 that they were taken by KFOR. Today you're telling us they're at this
25 gentleman's house. Which is true?
1 A. My knowledge is that they are at Feim Elshani's house. Maybe KFOR
2 has taken some of it, but you can get further details on this from Feim
3 Elshani, who came here as a witness on Nagavc. I found and buried
4 children who had been killed in Nagavc, but I haven't spoken about them.
5 I found eight children who had been killed there, all under the age of
6 ten --
7 Q. Nobody is asking you about that. You're being asked about these
8 fragments and you know that, don't you? So please answer the questions
9 you're being asked.
10 Now, my question is this: Why did you tell the Judges, under
11 oath, in Milosevic, that KFOR took these pieces and now you're telling us
12 today that you don't really know whether KFOR took them or not? Why did
13 you tell the Judges that in Milosevic?
14 A. KFOR did take some of it, but there are still fragments from these
15 shells in Nagavc even today. And I have -- I have said it all the time,
16 I've been repeating it, and should the need arise, I will go to Nagavc and
17 take those bomb fragments and bring them over here, as well as the cases
18 that came from heavy artillery shelling on the village. I should bring
19 those as well.
20 Q. Mr. Visnjic asked you yesterday what the Cyrillic letters were
21 that you saw on these fragments and you never answered that question.
22 Would you tell us now what Cyrillic letters you observed?
23 A. You have the Cyrillic letters there. You ought to be able to
24 identify them.
25 Q. Where do you think I have them?
1 A. You can read and write, but I can't read and write in Cyrillic.
2 Q. So you don't know what Cyrillic letters were on these shell
3 fragments you're talking about?
4 A. I repeat it: If you need it, I shall bring those bits here and
5 you'll be able to see for yourselves.
6 Q. I'm just asking you if you know what the letters are that are on
7 these fragments. You can say you don't know; that's okay.
8 A. I do know, but I can't see them here on the screen. I've got
9 nothing in Cyrillic here in front of me.
10 Q. No, you don't, because I don't have it to show you. But can you
11 tell us what those letters are, or do you not know? What letters did you
12 see on these fragments? If you don't know, say you don't know or you
13 don't remember or whatever.
14 A. I didn't read that. But I will bring the fragments from these
15 shells here should the need arise, and you will be able to judge
16 yourselves what is written on them.
17 Q. Well, I am quite certain that investigators from this Tribunal
18 will want you to show them these pieces and the Cyrillic that's on them.
19 And I'm sure you will cooperate in that regard. Now, you told us
20 yesterday that these fragments were with Mr. Feim Elshani, who had
21 testified in Milosevic --
22 A. Feim Elshani told you about that. We were all present when he did
23 that, again and again, and I will not deny it. I will be able to bring
24 them over here. Not only that, but everything that was fired from heavy
25 artillery, all the casings, I shall bring them here.
1 Q. Well, Mr. Elshani testified, as you told us, in Milosevic at page
2 868, and with regard to these fragments, he said that parts of the
3 fragments were handed over to members of German KFOR. Do you know
4 anything about that?
5 A. I don't know about that. You can ask him on that.
6 Q. Okay. That's all I have.
7 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
9 Mr. Cepic.
10 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
11 Cross-examination by Mr. Cepic:
12 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Popaj. My name is Djuro Cepic,
13 one of the counsel for General Lazarevic.
14 I would like to go back to your statement from 1999. In paragraph
15 6 on page 2 of the English, you say that a week before the shelling
16 started -- the bombing started Serb forces arrived, as being the Serbian
17 police and soldiers, about 40 of them at your village. And they began
18 digging trenches on a hill overlooking the village.
19 My question is this: Did those forces come together with some
20 bright orange-coloured jeeps?
21 A. No. There wasn't any orange colour.
22 Q. Thank you. The location where the forces were is more or less one
23 kilometre away from your house. Is that correct?
24 A. Not one kilometre, but ...
25 Q. Could you finish your answer, please.
1 A. I did not measure the distance, but I don't think it's one
2 kilometre. It doesn't look far away, but if you want to go to that place
3 then it seems to be far.
4 Q. There is no need for me to go there. I wanted to get an
5 approximate figure of the distance.
6 A. I did not measure the distance. Through the fields it's closer,
7 and if you go there by car it's further.
8 Q. Sir, on the 29th of October you spoke to the OTP representatives.
9 You spoke with our learned friend, Ms. Christina Moeller. Is that
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. On that occasion you said that up to Nahit Fetoshi's house, where
13 the forces were, that that distance is about 900 metres up to one
14 kilometre. Is that correct?
15 A. Yes. This is what I said. As I said, I did not measure the
16 distance. I gave an approximate distance.
17 Q. Very well. Thank you, Mr. Popaj. Let's try and move quickly. I
18 will try to be as clear as possible, and I would kindly ask you for clear
19 answers. You didn't approach those forces; you didn't come close, did
21 A. No. I went up to the schools because the pupils were still
22 attending school. And from there we could observe them because they were
24 Q. Yes. But you didn't see any insignia on them; is that correct?
25 A. I did not see any insignia. As I mentioned, they installed two
1 anti-aircraft cannons, and they expelled Naim Fetoshi with his family
3 Q. We've already heard that, sir. Thank you. I want to move on to
4 another topic.
5 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask the court
6 administration to show us P2445.
7 Q. Mr. Popaj, do you recognise this mosque?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Can you tell me where it is located.
10 A. It used to exist; it does not exist today. It was in Celine.
11 Q. Can you tell me this: On this photograph, it is a bit further
12 away from any other buildings. There are no houses adjacent to it. Is
13 that correct?
14 A. It's in the middle of the village. This is a road that goes
15 inside the village. There are houses on the upper part and on the lower
16 part, on all sides.
17 Q. Yes. But next to the mosque itself, as we can see on the
18 photograph, there are no family houses?
19 A. I don't know who took this photograph, but close to the mosque
20 there are houses. And above this road here, there are houses as well. I
21 don't know who took this photograph.
22 Q. Thank you. How many metres away from the mosque are the nearest
23 houses, or used to be?
24 A. Adjacent to the wall of the yard, and then again on the left and
25 on the right side. Riza is a name of the person whose house is next to
1 the mosque, and Rexhep's house is on the other side here.
2 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see P1800, please.
3 Q. Mr. Popaj, are you familiar with this location?
4 A. Yes. This is Riza's house that was adjacent to the mosque. This
5 is where Rexhep's house was, and this is where the mosque was.
6 Q. And you assert that this is the same location that we saw on the
7 photograph before that?
8 A. Yes, it's the same location.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic, what is the point that's involved in
10 challenge to the damage to this particular mosque? What is the point that
11 Defence are making? Has somebody been doctoring photographs
12 or -- bearing in the mind the evidence we've had from Riedlmayer?
13 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] No, quite the contrary, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: What is the point of taking time on this? There
15 must be a good for it, is there?
16 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] The witness stated he was present at
17 that time in Celine; that's why we wanted to inquire further as to the
18 events on the 28th of March. And for another reason, and with your leave,
19 I wanted to ask the next question concerning the dates mentioned when the
20 mosques were destroyed.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.
22 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 Q. Mr. Popaj, you claim that on the 28th of March the mosques of Bela
24 Crkva, Rogovo, and Celina were destroyed simultaneously; this was your
25 assertion. Before me I have a document, drafted by Mr. Andras Riedlmayer,
1 in which it is stated that the mosque in the village of Rogovo, according
2 to the statements of the villagers, was destroyed on the 3rd of April,
3 1999. Therefore, it wasn't on the 28th of March, as you stated.
4 A. There was not a single person in Rugova village on the 3rd of
5 April; only the animals were still there. You expelled Rugova village on
6 the 27th.
7 Q. Thank you, Mr. Popaj. Thank you.
8 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this concludes my
9 cross-examination of this witness. Thank you.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Cepic.
11 Mr. Zecevic.
12 MR. ZECEVIC: No questions for this witness, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Fila.
14 MR. FILA: [Microphone not activated].
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
16 Ms. Moeller.
17 MS. MOELLER: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Re-examination by Ms. Moeller:
19 Q. Mr. Popaj, my learned colleague Mr. Visnjic made a proposition to
20 you that your brother, Nesim Popaj, actually died at another date and at
21 another location than you testified about. Did you bury your brother
22 Nesim with your own hands?
23 A. Yes, I buried him with my own hands. They were referring to Mesim
24 Vebi Popaj, Vebi being the father's name, who is still alive. Mesim is
25 born in 1965, while the other person still lives. My brother's name was
1 Nesim and the other person's name is Mesim. I buried my brother with my
2 own hands. I put the bottle with his name inside, and when we exhumed
3 him, the bottle was still there.
4 Q. Okay. Thanks. Now, my learned colleague Mr. Ackerman asked you
5 about the number of cattle in your village, being 5.000, as you confirmed.
6 What happened to these cattle after the 24th of March, when your village
7 was -- when Serb forces came to your village?
8 A. After the 24th of March, or rather, after the 25th of March,
9 around the 30th of March, I would say, they were carrying the cattle in
10 trucks in the direction of Prizren. They killed some of the cattle, but
11 most of them they carried in trucks in the direction of Prizren. But now
12 you still have more than 50.000 cattle in the village.
13 Q. And you --
14 THE INTERPRETER: 5.000; interpreter's correction.
15 MS. MOELLER:
16 Q. Yes. And you also responded to a question of my learned colleague
17 Mr. Lukic regarding the situation in the village between the 25th of March
18 and the 4th of May, that there was looting going on in Bela Crkva and that
19 there were some people from Rahovec involved in that whom you recognised.
20 Did these people from Rahovec wear a uniform or did they wear civilian
22 A. They were wearing civilian clothes. They were armed with
23 automatic rifles. They came in tractors. They took one of my tractors,
24 the make, Ferguson 39, and other vehicles that we had. They looted
25 everything and then they burned the houses. The person in question asked
1 me, called me, and told me that I could go and pick up my truck somewhere
2 near Nis, between Leskovc and Nis.
3 Q. When these people did the looting in your village, were there also
4 people in uniforms still present in Bela Crkva?
5 A. Yes. The army was above and the police were stationed in the
7 Q. Now, I think, when you were questioned again about the people who
8 did the shooting along the Belaje river, you referred to this being done
9 by paramilitaries. What do you actually mean by "paramilitaries"? Could
10 you explain that?
11 A. To me, a paramilitary is a person who kills and executes people,
12 innocent people, children. They killed children who were only 2 years
14 Q. Okay. Now I would like to go back to the issue that my learned
15 colleague Mr. Ackerman --
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Do you think that actually helps resolve the
17 difficulty that is created by the use of the expression "paramilitary" in
18 the Milosevic trial?
19 MS. MOELLER: Well, I --
20 JUDGE BONOMY: You're content to leave it at that, are you?
21 MS. MOELLER: No, I'm going back to that.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: I see. Okay.
23 MS. MOELLER: Yes.
24 Q. Well, let's do it right away, then, here. These paramilitaries
25 you saw at the Belaje river, or however you would call them, they wore
1 uniforms, did they? I think you said that yesterday.
2 A. Yes, they were all wearing uniforms, police uniforms. The 12 that
3 were on my side and who I saw, they were all dressed in uniforms, on the
4 right side of the stream.
5 Q. And I think there was some further questioning about the colours
6 involved in these particular uniforms. Could you try to explain once more
7 what colour these uniforms had.
8 A. I already said that the colour was blue camouflage. I call it
9 green. You will not find persons from my village who will use the same
10 word for the colour. But they had this colour of the curtain,
12 Q. And by "the curtains," you mean which curtains?
13 A. Behind the Judges, these curtains.
14 Q. Okay.
15 MS. MOELLER: May the record reflect once more that these curtains
16 are blue.
17 Q. Sir, the --
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Can I just interrupt.
19 Mr. Popaj, in the English language, the word "paramilitary" refers
20 to someone who is not actually in the army or in the police. It's an
21 important distinction. If you call somebody a paramilitary, he's not
22 actually a member of the official army or the official police force. Now,
23 when you use the expression "paramilitary," is that what you mean to say,
24 that these people are not part of the army, the official army, or the
25 official police?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, they were part of the official
2 police. They were brought there in vehicles. They didn't come there on
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
5 Ms. Moeller, that was the sort of clarification I was trying to
7 MS. MOELLER: Yes, Your Honour. I thought it was clear from the
8 first answer he had actually given when he described what paramilitaries
9 meant in his meaning, but that is certainly much clearer now.
10 Q. And just to round this up, is the -- you mentioned some of the
11 people wear bandannas or scarves around their heads. Did they, at the
12 same time, also wear uniforms? And I'm talking about the group of people
13 who shot the villagers at the Belaje stream.
14 A. These wearing uniforms, they had bandannas on their heads.
15 Q. Okay. Now I would like to go back to the questions of the
16 positioning of the tanks in your village on the morning of the 25th of
17 March, which was discussed at length with my learned friend Mr. Ackerman.
18 MS. MOELLER: Could we call up Exhibit P93, page 11, and maybe
19 this photograph may help to sort out some confusion.
20 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
21 MS. MOELLER:
22 Q. Mr. Popaj, there is an aerial photo, I think, of your village and
23 it is taken from further away, and I'm wondering whether you can figure
24 out on this photograph the streets which would go from your village to
25 Celine, if it is depicted on this photograph. You may need a minute to
1 orient yourself.
2 A. Yes, yes, it's here.
3 Q. Can you take the pen and draw along the street that you mean.
4 A. This road leaves the village and goes to Celine. From this point,
5 Celine is 800 metres far, not even 1 kilometre. It goes to fields. And
6 this one here and this one here.
7 Q. Okay. And that is what you meant to describe, when you were
8 discussing it with Mr. Ackerman, as the one road that you are aware of
9 going between your village and the Celine village?
10 A. Yes, this road, while the road that the tanks took to go up to the
11 hill, it's this one. This road takes a turn and then goes to the middle
12 of Celine. The hill is above here, and that's where they positioned
13 themselves. These are the meadows where we took our cattle.
14 Q. Sorry, I'm not entirely clear still. The second road, the lower
15 red line you draw, this is another road which also goes to Celine but via
16 the mountains. Is that what you're saying or --
17 A. This road takes you to Rahovec, Nagavc. There is no road that
18 goes to the hill - they climb that hill through the fields - while this
19 road here takes you to Rahovec. And they went to the hill which is above
20 Celine and Nagavc.
21 Q. So just to be crystal clear, which of the two roads that you've
22 marked did the tanks take, the upper or the lower in the picture?
23 A. The upper, the upper road. They went through this road.
24 Q. By "upper," I mean upper in the photograph. I'm not --
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Is there another --
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, on the photograph, it's the
2 lower one, while in the village, it's the upper one.
3 MS. MOELLER:
4 Q. Okay.
5 A. On this photograph it's the one below.
6 Q. I'm sorry, I wasn't clear in my question at all here.
7 MS. MOELLER: Could we --
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Could I ask just one thing.
9 And that road, you say, goes to Rahovec?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it goes to Rahovec. It's not
11 an asphalt road. It's an off-road usually used by us to carry grapes and
12 other sorts of things. It takes you straight to Rahovec. There is a road
13 of Pojata, as we call it --
14 JUDGE BONOMY: What other place does that road go through?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It takes you to Rahovec, to Brestovc
16 and nowhere else; up to Brestovc village, Rahovec, and up to Hoqe e Madhe.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
18 MS. MOELLER: Can we take a snap-shot of this picture, please.
19 THE REGISTRAR: That will be IC100, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
21 MS. MOELLER:
22 Q. Now, there was also some discussion about --
23 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, excuse me one moment.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.
25 MR. ACKERMAN: Maybe -- I don't know. I'm concerned about page
1 58, line 4 and 5. Does that need to be clarified or not? I mean, we've
2 got two different things now.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, at that stage it was clear to me that he was
4 referring to the road that's the lower one on the map. There was then
5 some confusion following that because of his understanding of what was
6 meant by "lower" and "upper. " And when an attempt was made to clarify
7 that, he said it was the lower road on the photograph. Now that meant to
8 me that he had given two consistent answers.
9 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, Your Honour, I think - and I'm quite certain
10 I'm right - the upper red mark that he made was when he was asked to show
11 us the road that goes to Celine. The lower red mark that he made on the
12 photograph, the longer one, was the mark he made when he was showing us
13 where the tanks went. And he says "this road."
14 While the road that the tanks took go up to the hill, it's this
15 one. And that's the one he drew on the bottom, and said this road takes a
16 turn and goes to the middle of Celine. And that gets us back to what the
17 map shows of two roads going to Celine. So I don't know it. I think it's
18 more confused than it was before.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This road does not take you to
20 Celine --
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Just a moment, Mr. Popaj.
22 Ms. Moeller, I think it would pay dividends to try and clarify the
23 part of the transcript Mr. Ackerman has identified.
24 MS. MOELLER: Yes, if we could -- do we have IC100 -- yes, we
25 still have it on the screen.
1 Q. Mr. Popaj, could I ask you to put a number 1 at the street that
2 you lined, which leads from Bela Crkva to Celine, please.
3 A. [Marks]
4 Q. And could you put a number 2 where you lined the other road.
5 A. [Marks]
6 Q. Now, when the tanks left your village on the morning of 25 March,
7 did they take road number 1 or road number 2, and just tell us the number?
8 A. Number 2.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 MS. MOELLER: Can we take another snap-shot of this, please. I
11 think it's clear now.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.
13 THE REGISTRAR: That will be IC101, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
15 MS. MOELLER: Can we call up from the same exhibit page 5, please.
16 Q. There was some discussion about where the house of Mr. Fetoshi was
17 located in the village, and where the houses were which were burned first
18 on the 25th of March. And I would like you to have a look at the picture,
19 which comes up next, and tell us whether you can see the Fetoshi house and
20 the area where the houses were first burned on this picture or not.
21 A. I cannot see the house of Fehmi Fetoshi because not everything is
22 included in this shot.
23 Q. Are any of the houses which were burned first visible in this
24 picture, or are they also outside of this frame?
25 A. I know which of the houses were burned down first --
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Perhaps the usher would assist the witness; he's
2 looking for the pen.
3 MS. MOELLER: Yes.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the entrance to the village, when
5 they entered here, they burned these houses first.
6 MS. MOELLER:
7 Q. You have to make -- to draw on the screen again to make it
8 visible, please
9 JUDGE BONOMY: He has done so.
10 MS. MOELLER: Oh, sorry. I didn't see. Yes.
11 Q. Okay. And can you also mark the street along which they entered
12 the village; draw a line along it, please.
13 A. [Marks]
14 Q. Okay. Thank you.
15 MS. MOELLER: Can we take another snap-shot, please.
16 THE REGISTRAR: That will be IC102, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
18 MS. MOELLER: Could we now call up page 8, please.
19 Q. Mr. Popaj, would Mr. Fetoshi's house be visible on that picture?
20 A. No -- oh, on this one. Hang on a second. You can see a bit of it
21 on the edge here. You can see it here.
22 Q. Could you indicate the direction where you can see the bit. Only
23 if you can, I mean, if it's outside, don't --
24 A. I cannot see it. It's outside the frame. I don't think the
25 picture shows everything.
1 Q. Okay. Okay. If you cannot do it then --
2 A. The mosque is here.
3 Q. -- I'll leave it here. Now, that's fine, Mr. Popaj. Thank you.
4 My last question would be related to the book Fenikset e Lirise -
5 and excuse my pronunciation, please - in which some of your family members
6 are listed. Did you ever see this book before it was shown to you by an
7 investigator in June 2005?
8 A. No. I saw it first when he came to my house. I heard from other
9 people that it had been written, but I only saw it on that particular day
10 when it was shown to me. And I didn't know on that day that it was an
11 investigator from this Tribunal.
12 Q. And did ever have anyone come to your house and inquire about your
13 son Shendet and your brother and other persons, whether they were actually
14 in the KLA or not, before this book was published or in relation to this
16 A. No. No one asked me, with the exception of that person who came
17 to ask questions of me and who showed me the book, and I don't even know
18 his name.
19 Q. And your youngest son who was not even 14 when he was killed, did
20 he ever talk to you about signing a list of the KLA in school?
21 A. Agon, no.
22 Q. And in 1998, did your son not tell you that he put his name on a
23 list which was circulated in his school?
24 A. I cannot remember.
25 Q. Okay. Well, I have an investigator's notes here that said that he
1 inquired you about Agon - that's the one I'm talking about - and that you
2 told him that your son told you that, in 1998, a list was circulated in
3 his school and that he, among other boys, signed this list, and that you
4 didn't take that serious at the time because he was so young. Do you
5 recall that you said that to the person who came to talk to you about the
6 Fenikset e Lirise book, or not?
7 A. I cannot recall. Maybe he told me that, but I cannot remember
8 just now.
9 Q. Okay.
10 MS. MOELLER: I have no further questions, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
12 In relation to the roads, Mr. Ackerman, is there anything else you
13 want to raise?
14 MR. ACKERMAN: I think it would complicate it further, Your
15 Honour. I think we better leave it where it is.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
17 Mr. Popaj, that completes your evidence. Thank you for coming to
18 the Tribunal again to give evidence. You are now free to leave -- oh, I'm
19 sorry, a moment. Judge Nosworthy does want to ask you a question. Sorry.
20 Questioned by the Court:
21 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Mr. Popaj, you have said that your son Agon, at
22 14, and your other son, respectively, at 17, they were too young, in your
23 consideration, to be members of the KLA/UCK. What I want to know from
24 you: As far as your knowledge goes, at what age would young men have
25 joined or been recruited into the KLA?
1 A. Over 18 years of age.
2 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Thank you. And what about when they,
3 themselves, volunteered, as it was alleged that your younger son did?
4 A. They never left the house. They were there all the time. He went
5 to school every day.
6 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: I understand that that is what you are saying,
7 but does the age of 18 apply equally to when a young man would volunteer
8 for joining the KLA, as it was alleged that your younger son had
10 A. During the time of the former Yugoslavia, I applied to go and
11 serve my military service at 17. It was rejected. I did serve my
12 military service there after 18, after completing 18 years of age.
13 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Thank you very much.
14 No further questions, Judge.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that does now complete your evidence,
17 Mr. Popaj. Thank you for coming. You may now leave the courtroom.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you from all -- everybody from
19 the Trial Chamber.
20 [The witness withdrew]
21 JUDGE BONOMY: There are a number of administrative matters it
22 might be appropriate to deal with in the time we have. We'll be breaking
23 around a quarter to 1.00.
24 Mr. Visnjic, can I ask you, you have a 54 bis application for
25 material from the Government of the United Kingdom. They have applied for
1 an extension of time to respond to that, and in that application, which I
2 hope you've received, they say that there are ongoing discussions about
3 material. I notice that on the Prosecution's latest list of witnesses to
4 the end of the year, Colonel Crosland doesn't appear. Now, the question
5 for me is -- for you, rather, is whether there is any point in delaying
6 taking a decision in this matter, or whether, as far as you're concerned,
7 it's got to the stage where the Trial Chamber has to make a decision?
8 MR. VISNJIC: [No interpretation].
9 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm sorry, I'm getting no interpretation for some
11 MR. VISNJIC: Oh, I'm sorry.
12 [Interpretation] We have already today answered in writing, and I
13 suppose that our filing is somewhere in the pipeline from the Registry
14 towards the Trial Chamber. But I can say briefly that I am not opposed to
15 this extension for the UK on the condition that we get the material before
16 the testimony of Colonel Crosland. And I believe this postponement -- in
17 fact, this new list is precisely intended at finding a convenient time for
18 all parties.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
20 The second matter is an application on behalf of Mr. Lukic to bar
21 certain testimony from the scheduled next witness Mehmet Mazrekaj. Now,
22 in view of the fact that the witness is about -- at least is listed to
23 give evidence next, there's no time, obviously, for a written response to
24 this. The application is confined to the question of rape and sexual
25 assault. Now, what response do the Prosecution wish to make to this?
1 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much, Your Honour. I think the
2 application raises questions of fairness in terms of adequate notice about
3 the allegation made by the witness. That allegation or that statement was
4 made during proofing recently, and it was transmitted to the Defence at
5 the earliest opportunity, or soon thereafter. It was not in a
6 supplemental information sheet, but the information was in the witness
7 notification, an addendum to the witness notification, in which it was
8 indicated that we would seek to lead that evidence.
9 The application, I think, quite rightly raises the issue as to
10 whether or not they should be notified as to his source of information. I
11 think that is the pith of the argument, that they were not notified as to
12 the source of his information. And we have supplied that information to
13 the Defence -- actually, he was told -- the source is that he was told
14 about the rapes by women who were present in the case where these rapes
15 were committed. That information, being what it is, I don't know if -- or
16 the extent to which that would impact on the preparation the Defence would
17 need to make for cross-examination. So I wonder if the application is
18 being pressed now --
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, what you've said suggests that you don't
20 think the information itself is worth very much, because if you do, then
21 you would expect the Defence to want to investigate and challenge it.
22 MR. STAMP: I'm not saying it is not worth very much. The
23 question is whether or not the source of the information, being what it
24 is, it would impact on the challenge in respect of this particular
25 witness. There would be some limitations to what they could do with this
1 particular witness if they wanted to challenge that allegation.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic, it's being suggested that you might not
5 be pressing this application.
6 MR. IVETIC: We are pressing this application, Your Honour. We
7 don't file any application that we feel not to be pressed.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, it's just impossible for us to assess the
9 implications of allowing this evidence to be led. There has been more
10 than ample time for these matters to be fully investigated by the
11 Prosecution before the start of this trial, and to raise this matter at
12 this stage is, in our view, quite inappropriate. It's unfair to the
13 Defence to allow this particular witness to speak on these matters in the
14 way described by Mr. Stamp, and we therefore will grant this application
15 and we will refuse to admit any evidence about sexual assault or rape that
16 the Prosecution seek to lead from this witness.
17 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, there's another matter with regard to
18 this witness that I'd like to raise.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.
20 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, we've received the original 65 ter
21 summary - I don't know how long ago, long ago - along with the statement
22 of the witness, and the statement of the witness says nothing about VJ.
23 Then recently we received a new 65 ter summary of the witness containing a
24 paragraph that says: "The witness will testify to these additional
25 matters," where, for the first time, there is mention of VJ. This is
1 becoming highly regular with regard to these witnesses that have nothing
2 to say about the VJ until they arrive here in The Hague and all of a
3 sudden they remember things about the VJ. There are two things about
5 First of all, as Your Honour has made clear, we're entitled to
6 rely on the 65 ter summaries that were filed early in this case in terms
7 of our preparation and investigation and whether or not we even care about
8 a particular witness.
9 In addition, on at least two occasions, Your Honour, you have
10 instructed the Prosecution, if they want to amend the 65 ter summary, they
11 need to apply for leave of court to do so. We now have this new summary
12 that, all of a sudden, makes this witness of interest to some of us that
13 was of no interest to some of us earlier, without any application to you
14 for the amendment. And so I think the amendment should not be permitted
15 because there has not been a timely application.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, which paragraph -- well, I only have the
17 witness notification for the trial week commencing the 30th of October.
18 Is it included there?
19 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, all I can tell you is I have two of
20 them in my book here. One was the one that I think came with the
21 notification for the 30th of October and one that was given to us by
22 e-mail fairly recently, where this additional paragraph was attached down
23 by the bottom of it.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I'll have a look at that in the break, but I
25 think you face the difficulty in relation to this, Mr. Ackerman, whenever
1 Serb forces are referred to, and that might be seen as enough warning that
2 something may emerge that implicates the VJ. However, I will have a look
3 at the documents in question and indicate the position before the witness
4 starts giving evidence. I want to deal with certain other matters just
6 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, I just want to say that I'm concerned about
7 what is the current status of your order, that if they want to amend the
8 65 ter, they need to apply to you for leave. Is that order no longer
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I don't have an application at the moment so
11 I'm not in a position to make a decision. Let me consider what you've
12 said and obtain the necessary documentation. I want to deal with other
13 matters, because we don't have time to deal with everything at length and
14 there are urgent matters to be dealt with.
15 There's raised with the Trial Chamber the question of the witness
16 Zyrapi and the additional information provided about him and the
17 difficulty that, it's said, will face cross-examiners.
18 Now, who wishes to deal with this for the Prosecution?
19 MR. HANNIS: I will. Mr. Marcussen will be leading this witness,
20 but I can deal with it, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, what do you have to say on this matter?
22 MR. HANNIS: Well, Your Honour, we propose that there's certainly
23 adequate information to start cross-examination, and perhaps we'll reach a
24 point where it would be necessary for the Defence to recess to address the
25 additional information they say they need to cross-examine on.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Let's assume, though, that you have other evidence
2 that exhausts this week, what would you do with this witness? Would you
3 still retain him to start at the beginning of next week?
4 MR. HANNIS: We would like to do that, rather than send him away
5 and have him come back at a later date, because we are having scheduling
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that raises the question of when we hear the
8 cross-examination of the witness who has returned for cross-examination.
9 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Mr. Zogaj, Your Honour, he testified on the 21st
10 and 22nd of September. You'll recall he produced a book, I think it was
11 called "Blood Traces" that the Defence hadn't seen and wanted an
12 opportunity to examine and cross-examine him about. We tentatively
13 scheduled him to return on the 25th of October. I had informal
14 discussions with Defence counsel the week before about him coming that
15 week of the 25th, 26th, and 27th, our short week. They indicated they
16 weren't ready, so we put him off to this week. He arrived on Monday and
17 he's been here this week. I really would like to try and get him on and
18 completed so he doesn't have to stay another week or come back a third
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Are you wanting to take him next?
21 MR. HANNIS: Well, Your Honour, we proposed to do him after
22 Mr. Mazrekaj, because we thought Mazrekaj would be fairly short and we
23 would have time enough to complete Zogaj, and then whatever time we had
24 left, we might start direct examination of Mr. Zyrapi.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, does the cross-examination of Mr. Zogaj
1 present a problem for the Defence this week? No.
2 So that problem is resolved, Mr. Hannis.
3 Just a couple of other matters. On the 13th of October, there
4 arose an issue between, I think, Ms. Moeller, representing the
5 Prosecution, and Mr. Ivetic over a number of exhibits, and the parties
6 were instructed and undertook to discuss the position and report back to
7 the Trial Chamber by the following Thursday, which would have been the
8 19th of October. Nothing's happened on that. There has been an e-mail
9 sent to alert the parties of the failure to do anything about it and still
10 nothing's happened. Now, what is the position?
11 Ms. Moeller.
12 MS. MOELLER: Your Honours, I can report that I had some
13 conversations with Mr. Ivetic, my learned colleague, just, I think, the
14 day before yesterday. The week before, I think he was out of the country
15 and he signaled that he just hadn't had time to look at the exhumation
16 reports and deaths at the time. But he promised to do that this week and
17 I'm confident that we will be able to let you know maybe early next week,
18 or maybe Mr. Ivetic can speak for himself as to the status.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic.
20 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, actually, this morning I had completed
21 looking through the autopsy reports. The situation is as I had expected
22 when the exhibits were tendered: The exhibits tendered are not the
23 complete set of exhibits. The exhibits tendered in particular are
24 photographs that were not led with any witness and do not have any idea --
25 and we do not have any idea of what the photographs show. Their reference
1 was made to remains that were discovered --
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Just tell me the time-scale, Mr. Ivetic.
3 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I can let you know tomorrow what the
4 list of documents that should be tendered if the whole set is tendered.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: That's helpful.
6 Just, finally, on matters at this stage, also in your case, but
7 possibly being dealt with by Mr. Lukic, a number of exhibits were tendered
8 in untranslated form during the cross-examination of Peraj and there was
9 an order made that a written filing should be submitted once all the
10 translated copies were available. Now, what is the position on that?
11 [Defence counsel confer]
12 MR. IVETIC: We have to check on that, Your Honour. As of the
13 other day, I thought we were still waiting on at least one document --
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, again, an e-mail was sent and there's been no
15 response. Now, we expect, at least as a matter of courtesy, if nothing
16 else, that you will respond to these e-mails and tell us the position.
17 It's inappropriate that we should have to take up time here in court to
18 deal with matters which should be capable of being dealt with out of the
20 MR. IVETIC: I apologise, Your Honour. We will try to follow that
21 in the future.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: I would like an answer to this tomorrow as well.
23 It doesn't necessarily need to be done in the courtroom; it can be done
24 directly to Mr. Dawson, who's been communicating with you.
25 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Now --
2 MS. MOELLER: Your Honours, sorry, just before we move on, because
3 Mr. Popaj completed the evidence for the murder site of Bela Crkva and
4 there are two exhibits, and it fits in with --
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, we'll deal with it when we come back, because
6 I think we've already overrun long enough before the interpreters need a
7 break. So I will deal with this afterwards.
8 MS. MOELLER: Okay. I'm sorry.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: We'll resume at quarter past 1.00 and we will sit
10 until about five past 2.00. When we resume, we will be without Judge
11 Nosworthy, who's committed to the other trial, and we wish to make use of
12 such additional time as we can to compensate for what was lost this
13 morning. So we will resume at 1.15.
14 --- Recess taken at 12.53 p.m.
15 --- On resuming at 1.16 p.m.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Moeller, you were going to raise something
17 about the last witness.
18 MS. MOELLER: Yes, Your Honours. With your leave, I would like to
19 tender Exhibits P93 and P97, which are the crime scene photograph report
20 and the exhumation reports from the Metropolitan Police relating to Bela
21 Crkva. Both exhibits have been addressed with Mr. Popaj and earlier also
22 with Mr. Zhuniqi, who testified about Bela Crkva. We have now concluded
23 our evidence on this particular site.
24 The exhibit P97 was discussed in terms of admission also when Mr.
25 Zhuniqi testified on the 27th of September, 2006, and it is transcript
1 page 4137, lines 6 to 17, and at this stage I ask -- I didn't tender
2 Exhibit P97, but you said that, as far as it was related to by Mr.
3 Zhuniqi, that you would want to make use of it in the transcript. I
4 checked it in e-court; it's not yet admitted. But I just wanted to direct
5 you to this passage in the transcript where the admission was discussed.
6 At this point I seek to tender both exhibits in full.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
8 Is there any opposition to that, Mr. Visnjic?
9 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as to the photographs,
10 we have no objection whatsoever; but as for the report regarding Bela
11 Crkva, I think it contains exhumation reports which, as I understood it,
12 the Prosecution intended to introduce through the expert. Since the issue
13 of the expert is still outstanding, my position now is that I object to
14 the introduction of these reports through witnesses, either Popaj or
15 Zhuniqi, because neither of them have much to do with the expert report
17 JUDGE BONOMY: I read this as an application similar to one that's
18 been made before in relation to forensic science material and see the
19 Prosecution as tendering these on their own, in the light of all the other
20 evidence that has been submitted. These ones are being submitted in the
21 context in which it is possible to make sense of them. You have an
22 indication from the Prosecution that they'll be calling the forensic
23 expert Baccard, I think, and I know that you want to cross-examine him on
24 certain aspects of some of the material. In the end of the day, it's
25 going to be a matter of weight, because these ones do fit into the other
1 evidence in a way that we can understand. So the Chamber's attitude to
2 these is to admit them as documents in their entirety.
3 However, this is a suitable opportunity also to deal with an
4 earlier situation. On the 18th of October, at the end of the evidence of
5 the witness Kadriu, the Chamber was invited to admit a number of documents
6 as free-standing documents, as it were, from the bar table. The situation
7 with them is different. This is where the matter you just mentioned
8 originally arose, Mr. Visnjic, the question of cross-examination of an
9 expert. We tend to regard that as a separate issue, albeit an important
10 one. And even if the Prosecution, for some reason, didn't call the
11 expert, you could, of course, call him yourself. And, indeed, it may
12 weaken the Prosecution position in their case in-chief if they haven't
13 called him, I suppose.
14 But this particular set, which was P331 to 334, P206, 210, and
15 P2235, are rather different from the ones we've just been looking at.
16 It's not possible to make proper sense of them in the context of the
17 evidence so far and therefore we do not think that they ought to be
18 admitted as free-standing documents, with one exception. P2235 has
19 already been admitted. It's actually the 92 bis package of Fuad
20 Haxhibeqiri, and it would appear that that -- and it's page 4 of that
21 where there's an issue over identification of policemen, which appears
22 already to have been admitted. But in relation to the others, that's P331
23 to 334 and P206 and P210, we refuse to admit these at this stage. It may
24 be appropriate to renew the application when other evidence would allow
25 the Chamber to make sense of these exhibits, but that remains to be seen.
1 Now, that takes us to the question raised by Mr. Ackerman. I have
2 now seen the supplemental information sheet for the first time. Now, who
3 is dealing with this witness of the Prosecution? Mr. Stamp.
4 MR. STAMP: Yes, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stamp, the reference that seems to be causing
6 concern is, I think, the second paragraph of this, about the presence of
7 VJ vehicles and soldiers of the VJ in Beleg.
8 MR. STAMP: Yes, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, what date does that relate to?
10 MR. STAMP: This relates to the dates the 27th to the 29th of
11 March, 1999.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: And can you clarify for me the date on which it is
13 said that the witness crossed the border?
14 MR. STAMP: The witness crossed the border much later than that.
15 I think the witness crossed the border in April - I'm not sure of the
16 date - 1999.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: So can you tell me on which page of the statement
18 this part would fit in?
19 MR. STAMP: He describes the circumstances that obtained while he
20 and other villagers were refugees in a village by the name of Beleg, and
21 he refers to an APC and military vehicles --
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Where is the current reference to that in the
23 existing -- in the statement?
24 MR. STAMP: That is --
25 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm trying to fit --
1 MR. STAMP: It is --
2 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm trying to fit it into his evidence to see the
3 implications it would have.
4 MR. STAMP: Yes, Your Honour. The references to his time in Beleg
5 is really from page 4 of his statement, onwards, to about page 7. But on
6 page 7, in particular, he refers to an APC in a situation that is not
7 entirely clear whether he is reference to one APC or more than one. He
8 says he recognised one of the policemen who was inside the APCs, but it's
9 "APC" with a "comma S." So the question is really whose APC, and how
10 many APCs there were, APC being an armoured vehicle. And the answer to
11 the question is that they were APCs -- armoured vehicles belonging to the
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, the reference to the 18 soldiers being killed
14 is in the statement at the moment.
15 MR. STAMP: Yes, Your Honour --
16 JUDGE BONOMY: There is, though, the separate matter of how this
17 sort of situation should be handled. If you consider it necessary to
18 amend the 65 ter summary, then that's got to be done formally. But it
19 would appear, in this instance, you haven't considered that necessary.
20 MR. STAMP: Yes, Your Honour, but I was of the view that it was
21 really a matter of notice to the Defence. If the witness notification
22 indicates that the Prosecution would move to lead evidence in respect to
23 additional matters, then the application -- and I think Your Honour did
24 suggest that the application could be made orally when the witness comes
25 to testify, the important thing being that notice is given to the Defence
1 that the Prosecution intends to seek to lead that evidence.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, but do you consider this to alter your 65 ter
4 MR. STAMP: Your Honour, there are references to soldiers and
5 there are references to vehicles, in which the natural question would
6 arises whose vehicle, if it is an armoured vehicle, it is. And therefore,
7 in my estimation, it is not something so entirely new as, for example --
8 well, without giving examples, it is not something so entirely new as to
9 necessitate a change; however, the -- or an application to amend the 65
10 ter summary. However, the -- and I know an abundance of caution is not
11 necessarily a good reason. But I would say, since the matter is not
12 entirely beyond debate, the Prosecution, out of caution, would seek to
13 amend or would move to amend, just to be able to lead this evidence.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
15 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, may I respond briefly?
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.
17 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, you were referred to various pages of
18 this document. The statement of the witness never mentions VJ, except for
19 that one. You might be able to take it out of the 18 Serb soldiers who
20 were killed causing the roads to be blocked, but that has nothing to do
21 with what's been added to the Rule 65 ter --
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, it's in the same context, isn't it?
23 MR. ACKERMAN: No, it's not. What we're talking about is -- we're
24 told, in the new 65 ter, that when they went to Beleg, there were Serb
25 police and VJ personnel and paramilitaries there. When you look at his
1 statement, what it says, they went there on -- about 4.00 p.m., I think,
2 on Saturday; on Sunday, the 28th, then he says some police arrived to
3 check the village. And you've been referred to page 7, that that little
4 statement where he mentions an APC should alert us that that has to do
5 with the VJ, when we know that the police have APCs, and, in fact, the
6 statement is "recognised one of the policemen who was inside the APC." So
7 it's clearly a police APC that's involved. There's nothing there.
8 If you go to the next page, again, it talks about policemen and
9 paramilitary. Never does it say anything about Serb soldiers except that
10 one spot. And then, all of a sudden, at the last minute, we're hit with
11 this thing about VJ personnel being in the village. That's the first time
12 it's ever showed up by implication or otherwise.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE BONOMY: One of the things that guides us -- has guided us
16 in the past also is whether it's realistic to exclude parts of witnesses'
17 evidence. We've made a decision a short time ago to do so because it's
18 clearly separable evidence and it's something that you can do without,
19 putting unrealistic barriers in the way of the witness.
20 This is rather different. We're very sympathetic to
21 Mr. Ackerman's submission that this is the result of inadequate
22 preparation of the Defence case and inadequate efforts by the --
23 inadequate preparation of the Prosecution case and inadequate efforts to
24 give full details of that case to the Defence during the pre-trial phase.
25 But we're also conscious that this is the sort of material that would
1 probably have emerged in the examination of the witness without notice
2 being given to the Defence that it was going to happen.
3 So I know that it's little consolation to have our sympathy,
4 Mr. Ackerman, but this is one where we will grant the application to
5 extend the 65 ter summary and allow this evidence. But when we've done
6 that in the past, we've made it clear that if it does cause any prejudice,
7 then we will be sympathetic to an application for delayed
8 cross-examination or for re-call, if necessary, of the witness.
9 Mr. Stamp, there's going to come a time when pressure will be
10 such - that's the pressure of the clock will be such - that we won't be
11 able to allow this sort of thing. We'll have to do something which we
12 find distasteful, which is take an otherwise unrealistic approach to a
13 witness's evidence and exclude things in fairness because time will not
14 allow us the luxury of re-call or delay of cross-examination. So we urge
15 you again to think about how you are carrying out these proofing exercises
16 and how much time or notice you're giving the Defence as a result of doing
17 so at the very last minute.
18 MR. STAMP: Yes, Your Honour, we have taken serious steps to try
19 to have the proofing done as early as possible, including utilising what
20 is suggested by Your Honour, the facilities of teleconferencing.
21 Sometimes it just proves impossible to do so with some witnesses,
22 especially when we bring forward witnesses who we had intended to call
23 much later. But we do -- I do accept the sentiments expressed by the
24 Court and we will amend our list.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, please bring in Mr. Mazrekaj.
1 [The witness entered court]
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Good afternoon, Mr. Mazrekaj.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Would you please make the solemn declaration to
5 speak the truth by reading aloud the document which will now be placed
6 before you.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
8 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Please be seated.
10 As I hope you're aware, we already have your statement before us,
11 so we have been able to read the evidence you have provided to the Office
12 of the Prosecutor. The purpose of bringing you here was to enable counsel
13 for the parties to ask you additional questions that they feel are
14 important to assist us to reach the right conclusion in this case. It's
15 important, therefore, to concentrate on the particular issues that the
16 parties raise with you and to try to confine your answers to the
17 particular points you are asked about. The first person or the first
18 counsel to ask questions of you will be for the Prosecution, Mr. Stamp.
19 Mr. Stamp.
20 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much, Your Honour.
21 WITNESS: MEHMET MAZREKAJ
22 [Witness answered through interpreter]
23 Examination by Mr. Stamp:
24 Q. Mr. Mazrekaj, good afternoon.
25 A. Good afternoon.
1 Q. Can you state your name, please, for the record.
2 A. My name is Mehmet Mazrekaj, from the village of Drenoc,
3 municipality from Decan.
4 Q. Thank you. And, Mr. Mazrekaj, I understand that on the 4th of
5 February, 2000, you gave a statement to a member of the ICTY Prosecution
6 team in respect to events that occurred in your village of Drenoc in 1998
7 and 1999; is that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And are the contents of that statement true; in other words, would
10 your answers remain the same if you were asked about the same matters
11 again or today?
12 A. Yes, yes.
13 Q. Further, on the 18th of September, 2004, you attended before an
14 attesting officer of this Tribunal in Irzniq, in Kosovo, where you
15 attested to the correctness of this statement; is that correct?
16 A. Yes, it is entirely correct.
17 MR. STAMP: The statement, Your Honour, is P --
18 JUDGE BONOMY: 2374.
19 MR. STAMP: -- 2374.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
21 MR. STAMP:
22 Q. In your statement you refer to events which you call the first
24 MR. STAMP: Your Honour, I'm referring to the fourth full
25 paragraph of page 3 of the English copy, and that is also the fourth full
1 paragraph in the Serb version.
2 MR. ACKERMAN: And, Your Honour, I would object to testimony about
3 the first offensive because it all has to do with 1998.
4 MR. STAMP: I see --
5 MR. ACKERMAN: And I can't see any relevance to it. Maybe
6 Mr. Stamp can advise you of the relevance that would make it relevant to
7 the indictment, but I don't see the relevance and, therefore, I object on
8 that basis.
9 MR. STAMP: Your Honour, I was just going to ask one question
10 because the statement doesn't tell precisely when. It refers to 1998 and
11 the question was when, precisely, did these events occur.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, ask that question.
13 MR. STAMP:
14 Q. The events which you describe as the first offensive in your
15 statement, when did they occur?
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, Mr. Fila.
17 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] No, no -- [Microphone not activated].
18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Your microphone.
20 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I expect Mr. Stamp to tell us whether
21 this is a 92 bis witness or an 89 witness or whether he's a viva voce
22 witness - I haven't heard all this - and what issues in the indictment
23 he's testifying to. It was my fault, I'm sorry.
24 MR. STAMP: Very well. Actually, it's on the witness
25 notification --
1 JUDGE BONOMY: It is, but you better tell us.
2 MR. STAMP: Very well. The witness is 92 ter.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.
4 MR. STAMP: Formerly, it had been applied under 92 bis (B). And
5 he refers to events in Decani, and that is particularly paragraph 72(l) of
6 the indictment.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.
8 MR. STAMP: When I say "Decani," I mean the municipality of
10 May I proceed, Your Honour?
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.
12 MR. STAMP:
13 Q. Yes. The events which you describe as having occurred during the
14 first offensive, when did these events occur?
15 A. On May the 29th, 1998.
16 Q. And you said that as a result of these events you left Albania and
17 thereafter decided to return to Kosovo -- sorry, you said as a result of
18 these events, you left Kosovo --
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. -- sorry, you went to Decani, in Kosovo, from your village, where
21 you spent some months there and then returned to your home in Drenoc
22 eventually. When did you return to your home in Drenoc?
23 A. We returned to Drenoc three months after first leaving it.
24 Q. Very well.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Now could you deal with the objection that's been
1 made, Mr. Stamp?
2 Just a second --
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: -- Mr. Mazrekaj, until I hear from counsel.
5 MR. STAMP: I'm sorry, I'm not sure which objection.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: The objection is that the evidence about 1998 is
7 irrelevant to the indictment, and Mr. Ackerman is asking which part of the
8 indictment you suggest it's relevant to.
9 MR. STAMP: Your Honour, I'm just establishing where the witness
10 was, that he returned to his home at some point and he was living there at
11 a particular point in time. I intend to move on now from that part of the
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, but the evidence is there in the written
14 statement and the objection is being taken to that part of the written
15 statement, so the point that's being made is: Is it relevant to the
17 Mr. Ackerman, is there something else you want to say?
18 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, Your Honour, it looks to me like Mr. Stamp
19 agrees with me, and in that event, I think if we look at page 2, "When the
20 war started ..." and basically go from page 4 down to right after, "Later
21 nothing had happened because the OSCE was here ..." that that would take
22 out the 68 material. And I'd simply ask that the Trial Chamber exclude
23 that material from your consideration of the testimony of this witness. I
24 don't think we need to go through a formal redaction or anything, unless
25 you believe so, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stamp, what do you say about that?
2 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 I, at no point, conceded or suggested that it was not relevant;
4 it's just that I did not intend to go over it or spend time in court to
5 deal with it, except to establish a date. But this is a matter which is
6 part of the -- referred to in the background sections of the indictment,
7 particularly, at paragraph 95 of the indictment, which refers to various
8 operations in 1998, particularly where it says that, "By the end of
9 September, forces of the FRY and Serbia shelled and burned down about half
10 of the villages in Decani municipality." This is what the witness speaks
11 about in that section of his statement.
12 So it is relevant to the indictment, Your Honour, but I did not
13 really want to use time to deal with it.
14 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, in none of the 65 ter notices does
15 paragraph 95 appear as a relevant indictment paragraph.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: What I'm finding difficulty understanding is the
17 part at the foot of page 2, "When the war started ..." Now, that seems to
18 refer to the beginning -- well, the month of March 1999.
19 MR. STAMP: Yes, Your Honour, I would -- it does; that is my
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, but --
22 MR. STAMP: So --
23 JUDGE BONOMY: -- but you then have the paragraph that you
24 directed attention to, which tells us that the first offensive was in May
25 1998. So I find this whole section incomprehensible at the moment.
1 MR. STAMP: That is the problem with the statement. The statement
2 begins by referring to something which occurred, "the movement of the
3 Serbs in the war started," and then it proceeds, in the last line of page
4 2, to speak about Serb forces surrounding the village and details of what
5 happened, and concludes by saying that was the first offensive.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: You know --
7 MR. STAMP: That is why I just wanted to clarify with the witness
8 what period he is speaking about, with the statement as is.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stamp, to leave these statements in this state
10 from the year 2000, six and a half years ago, and present them now in this
11 state, to this Tribunal, runs a very serious risk of a grave injustice
12 being done. It's not fair to the witness to present them in this
13 disorganised state; it is unlikely to give the best presentation of his
14 evidence, and, in accumulation of these statements of a similar nature, it
15 is likely the Prosecution case is not going to be presented in the best
17 If that is the case, if that's what happens here, it is going to
18 be a tragedy for which the Prosecution will bear a very grave
19 responsibility. This sort of evidence should be capable of presentation
20 in a simple form, if adequate steps had been taken to put it in order,
21 before these witnesses were presented to us.
22 Carry on with this evidence. We will make a decision about the
23 objection at the end of the evidence, once we see how it can possibly --
24 we can possibly fit pages 2 to 4 into the overall evidence of the witness.
25 MR. ACKERMAN: May I just, very briefly, Your Honour, call your
1 attention to the last paragraph of the part that I highlighted for you.
2 You'll see that he begins there with, "When the war started ..." and that
3 section I outline ends with, "Later nothing had happened because the OSCE
4 was here..." In other words, he's describing matters that happened before
5 the arrival of OSCE, and then when OSCE arrives, nothing happens after
6 that. And then the next event, we finally go to March of 1999. So that's
7 clearly 1998 material all the way through there.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that's your interpretation which you may
9 present to us in due course, if the passage remains there. If Mr. Stamp
10 wishes to clarify it, that's for him. Or he may tell us he agrees with
11 that. I don't know if he actually knows.
12 MR. STAMP: I think the witness has just indicated that the events
13 which he just described in that part of his statement occurred in March
14 1998 --
15 JUDGE BONOMY: So what war are we talking about?
16 MR. STAMP: He refers to the war on page 2 of his statement, and
17 then -- that is the war in 1999, and then he --
18 JUDGE BONOMY: How do you conclude that that's the war in
19 1999? "Up until then, there were no conflicts between the Serbs and
20 Albanian population in the village," how could that possibly be referring
21 to 1999?
22 MR. STAMP: I beg your pardon, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, if you're about to tell us about the conflict
24 between Serbs and Albanians in 1998, how could a passage that says, "When
25 the war started ..." and then goes on, "Until then, there were no
1 conflicts between Serb and Albanian population in the village," how could
2 that be right?
3 MR. STAMP: The statement, Your Honour, I agree, deals with these
4 issues not in a proper sequential order, which is why all I want from the
5 witness is just to get the dates of when certain things occurred, because
6 it deals with one matter which seems to be 1999, and then it goes back to
7 1998 and then it comes back to 1999, which is really why I just want to
8 ask him when certain things occurred, because it might not be clear from
9 the statement.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, please carry on.
11 MR. STAMP:
12 Q. You said in your statement, sir, that when the war started, all
13 the Serbs left the village and went to the town of Decan. Which period
14 are you speaking about when the Serbs left the village and went to Decan?
15 A. I'm referring to the Serbs who were my neighbours, six families of
16 them. When the offensive started, they left their houses in our village
17 and went and occupied flats in Decan.
18 Q. And is this the period of 1998 when you speak of the first
19 offensive occurring, May 1998, as you said?
20 A. 1998, yes.
21 Q. I see from your statement that you're a teacher. As a teacher in
22 the village of Decani --
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. -- did you -- in the village of Drenoc --
25 A. Yes, yes.
1 Q. -- did the villagers select you to take any role or responsibility
2 in respect to the affairs of the village in 1999?
3 A. Yes, I was the eldest and so I looked after all the inhabitants of
4 that village, which included the elderly, women, children, and so on, and
5 so I looked after their affairs, to the best of my ability.
6 Q. Did they elect you to any position?
7 A. The leaders of all the neighbourhoods elected me and I vowed to
8 work on their behalf.
9 Q. Elected you to what position?
10 A. Some sort of supervisor. Nothing else.
11 Q. Very well. In your statement - this is page 4 of the English
12 statement, the second paragraph from the bottom; also page 4 of the Serb
13 version of the statement; and it's the sixth paragraph - you say that on
14 the 27th of March, 1999, at around 8.30 p.m., "I went out and saw
15 villagers who were gathered in a centre of it."
16 Was it in the evening or in the morning that you went out and saw
17 these villagers gathered there?
18 A. It was in the morning.
19 Q. Now, these were the villagers of Drenoc and you said there were
20 four other -- there were four families from the village of Sllup. Do you
21 know why these villagers gathered there that morning? Did they tell you
22 why they were there?
23 A. It is true that there were four families from the village of Sllup
24 as well, and they gathered there because they told us that was police who
25 came from the village and told them to leave the village automatically,
1 all at once.
2 Q. Very well. And the villagers from your own village, Drenoc, were
3 gathered there. Did they say why they were gathered there, in the centre
4 of the village?
5 A. They converged in the centre because police had forced them to
6 evacuate on account or the pretext that they had to, because NATO was
7 about to bomb them.
8 Q. About how many villagers were gathered there that morning, when
9 you went outside there?
10 A. At this stage there were 520 villagers from my village and 37 that
11 came from the village of Sllup.
12 Q. Did you speak, as a village supervisor, with any of the policemen
13 who were telling people to leave their homes or who were forcing people
14 from their homes, or did any of them speak to you?
15 A. Yes, I did speak to them.
16 Q. What did they tell you?
17 A. "Mr. Teacher," they said, "you should leave the village and go
18 beyond the asphalted road and make your way towards the other villages."
19 Q. What did you understand them to mean when they said "beyond the
20 asphalted road"?
21 A. What they meant was for us to evacuate the village, and I cannot
22 say here what their ultimate intention might have been.
23 Q. Now, did you know these policemen before? Could you say where
24 these policemen were from?
25 A. Yes. One came from Peje. I don't know his name. The other -- of
1 the other two, one was called Ahmet.
2 Q. And where were they from, the other two?
3 A. One of the other two came from Decan, from the police station at
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Can I ask for clarification of one thing. On page
6 4, that very first paragraph dealing with the 27th of March, Mr. Stamp,
7 there's a sentence at the end, "Local Albanian policemen told us not to
8 leave the village because nothing would happen to us."
9 MR. STAMP: Yes, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: That's still part of the evidence, is it?
11 MR. STAMP: Yes, Your Honour, I --
12 Q. So you --
13 JUDGE BONOMY: You what?
14 MR. STAMP: I intend to get to that, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: I see. Thank you.
16 MR. STAMP:
17 Q. So you say the people gathered because they had been instructed to
18 leave by police officers from Pec and Decan, and you said in your
19 statement, as just indicated by His Honour, that "local ... policemen told
20 us not to leave the village because nothing would happen to us." Can you
21 explain this, please.
22 A. Yes. The police who came from that neighbourhood had been chosen
23 by the Decan police; the other two were local policemen, both of them
24 Albanians. And they asked us not to leave the village; however, we
25 disobeyed their advice and left.
1 Q. So I take it from your answer that the police who came from Decani
2 told the villagers to leave, but the local Albanian police in the area
3 asked you not to leave.
4 A. Yes, because they thought they held -- they held a higher
5 position. In fact, what they were was simply my co-villagers.
6 Q. You said in your statement - and I'm looking at the English
7 version, at the bottom of page 4, going on to page 5 - that you set out to
8 Carrabreg in order to ask the police at the check-point at Carrabreg if
9 the villagers could pass through that check-point. I take it from that
10 that you and the villagers had decided to leave the village. Why did you
11 decide to leave the village?
12 A. We decided to leave the village because they forced us to. At
13 that point I went to Carrabreg, where Serbian police had a check-point at
14 the crossroads at Carrabreg. And, on behalf of the village, I went there
15 to request that we be left to move beyond the check-point towards the
16 village of Irzniq.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, Mr. Stamp, we will have to interrupt there,
18 I'm afraid. It's unfortunate, but there are technical reasons why we
19 can't continue this afternoon, albeit the court's available.
20 Well, Mr. Mazrekaj, I'm afraid we have to finish there for the day
21 because we don't have the facility to carry on in this courtroom today.
22 We will have to resume your evidence tomorrow. For that purpose, you will
23 have to be back here at 9.00 to re-commence giving evidence. Overnight,
24 please do not speak to anyone, anyone at all, about anything to do with
25 your evidence, either the evidence you've given or the evidence you will
1 give. You can talk about anything else, but the evidence is absolutely
2 off limits to your discussions.. So could you please leave the courtroom
3 now with the usher and we'll see you back here tomorrow again at 9.00.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
5 [The witness stands down]
6 JUDGE BONOMY: We will resume at 9.00 tomorrow.
7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.06 p.m.,
8 to be reconvened on Friday, the 3rd day of
9 November, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.