1 Wednesday, 29 November 2006
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Carter, who is your next witness?
6 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, our next witness is protected witness
7 K58 via videolink.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: And this is a witness whose evidence will be
9 delivered by video conference link?
10 MS. CARTER: Yes, Your Honour. She's being submitted under
11 paragraphs 25 through 32, 72(l), 76, and 77.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well. Can we have the witness now, please.
13 Good morning, Madam, can you hear me? Would you please make the
14 solemn declaration to speak the truth by reading aloud the document now
15 being placed before you.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
17 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
18 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The witness cannot be heard
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Two things arise. Thank you for taking the solemn
21 declaration. Please be seated. The interpreter had some difficulty
22 hearing what was said there, so I would be grateful if the registrar would
23 adjust the microphone. And I assume that the witness is wearing
24 headphones, which were not obvious on the photograph we have.
25 TECHNICIAN: [Pristina] Your Honour, the witness is listening on
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Witness K58, can you hear me clearly?
3 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Could the interpreter hear that?
5 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter couldn't hear that.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now, yes, I can hear you very well.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm afraid we'll have to try to adjust that
8 microphone, Mr. Haider, to make it a bit easier so the witness doesn't
9 have to keep bending down to speak. Even if a book was placed under it,
10 it would make a difference. Thank you very much.
11 We can now continue, Witness K58, with your evidence and the first
12 person to ask you some questions will be on behalf of the Prosecution and
13 that will be Ms. Carter.
14 Ms. Carter.
15 MS. CARTER: Thank you, Your Honour. I would like to direct the
16 witness to P2477, which is the witness identification sheet, and I also
17 have a hard copy for the Court's use. This is not to be displayed on
18 e-court because it will be tendered under seal.
19 WITNESS: WITNESS K58
20 [Witness answered through interpreter]
21 [Witness appeared via videolink]
22 Examination by Ms. Carter:
23 Q. Ms. K58, I'm showing you the witness identification sheet. Can
24 you please review it and confirm that that is, in fact, your name and
25 place of birth; however, it is my understanding that the date of birth is
1 inaccurate. And it should be the date of birth that is reflected on your
2 92 bis presiding officer attestation. Can you review that information and
3 confirm that it is in fact correct without reading it out before to the
5 A. The first time, the date of birth was not correct, because my date
6 of birth was incorrect. The second time, everything is correct.
7 MS. CARTER: Thank you, Your Honour. At this time I would tender
8 P2477 under seal with the caveat that the date of birth is inaccurate and
9 that the date of birth reflected in the attestation should be the one for
10 the witness.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
12 MS. CARTER:
13 Q. Ms. K58, as we discussed during proofing, the Court already has
14 your statement, and I'm just going to ask you a few questions in regards
15 to clarifications within the statement. I first want to direct you to
16 when you were driven out of your village and you indicate you were driven
17 out for six months. Is this six months prior to March 26th, 1999, or are
18 you referring to a deportation on March 26th, 1999?
19 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I'll object to the use of the word
20 "deportation." She's trying to get this witness to give legal
21 conclusions, which I think is improper.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Carter, you should, I think, rephrase that
24 MS. CARTER:
25 Q. Ma'am, you indicate in your statement that you were driven out of
1 your village and were forced to stay in Drenoc for six months. Was this
2 six-month period prior to 26 March of 1999, or are you referring to being
3 driven out and forced to stay in Drenoc on the 26th of March, 1999?
4 A. The war started six months ago, and we were forced to go from our
5 village to Drenoc village.
6 Q. When you say the war started six months ago, are you referring to
7 1998 or are you stating in the beginning in 1999?
8 A. It started at the beginning of 1999. I can't remember very well,
9 but I know that I left my village and stayed in Drenoc for six months.
10 Q. In paragraph 9 of your statement, beginning on page 3 of the
11 English and page 2 of the B/C/S, you indicate that some police officers
12 entered Naim's house. Can you please describe those police officers.
13 A. Yes. We were staying at the house of Naim Vishaj. The policemen
14 came there and entered the house. They were dressed in police uniforms
15 and asked us to leave the house by killing people and my maltreating
16 people. They killed Daut Alickaj on the spot and Nezir Vishaj; and then
17 they took Naim to a stable, I don't know, but we heard the shots being
18 fired at him.
19 Q. Ma'am, I need to stop you for just a moment, and I need you to
20 back up. I need an answer to my original question. Can you please
21 describe what the police looked like when they entered Naim's home.
22 A. They were wearing police uniform. The first time they entered at
23 9.00 and called the landlord, the owner of the house, and asked him who it
24 was inside.
25 Q. When you said they were wearing police uniforms, what colour were
1 those uniforms, and did they have a pattern or were they solid?
2 A. When they entered that day, they had on police clothes; then
3 afterwards, there were forces dressed in two kinds of uniforms, police and
4 camouflage uniforms.
5 Q. What did the police uniforms look like?
6 A. The police uniforms were one solid colour, like greyish colour.
7 The usual uniforms police wore. They had written on their arms "police"
8 in Serbian, in Cyrillic letters.
9 Q. I want you to look around yourself there in the videolink room.
10 Is there anything that is approximately the colour that you saw the police
12 A. It is the greyish police uniform; the one that police used to wear
13 in the past. How can I explain to you?
14 Q. Outside of the uniforms, what kind of arms were they carrying, if
16 A. They had arms. They had rifles and machine-guns. I don't know
17 what name it has.
18 Q. You indicated that later - and I believe you're referencing pages
19 3 and 4 in the English statement, as well as page 3 in the B/C/S
20 statement - that an additional group entered some time later. What were
21 these what you describe as paramilitaries, what did they look like?
22 A. Yes. The people of the other group had caps on, and they had
23 camouflage-like green, grass green uniform.
24 Q. Okay. Did these paramilitaries have the same types of guns as the
25 police, or did they have different types?
1 A. They had other weapons. They had tanks. The tank was there when
2 they forced us to leave.
3 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter couldn't hear the last part.
4 MS. CARTER:
5 Q. Ma'am --
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Could you repeat, please, the last part of that
7 answer. You said they had a tank, and then we could not hear what you
8 said after that.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. They were dressed in green
10 uniform. They had the tank. They were on the tank, and we were
11 surrounded -- we were around the tank. The tank was standing in the
12 middle, and they were carrying long weapons on their shoulders, different
13 kind of weapons.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Carter, before you move on or move off that
15 page, that and the previous page have a number of redactions in the copy
16 of the statement I have. All the place names have been deleted. I take
17 it there is a copy with all the place names in it?
18 MS. CARTER: Yes, Your Honour. The copy that I'm looking at has
19 no redactions to it. It does appear in the -- I can tender my copy --
20 well, no, it's actually highlighted --
21 JUDGE BONOMY: It can be remedied later, but it is just to be sure
22 that this isn't a gap you intend to fill in by oral question and answer.
23 It can be dealt with later.
24 MS. CARTER: Certainly, Your Honour. When that correction is
25 made, it will come in at K0482420, which is an unredacted copy of this
1 witness's statement.
2 Q. Ma'am, on page 4 of the English statement and page 4 of the
3 Albanian statement and page 3 of the B/C/S, you indicated that when these
4 people were forcing you from the home, they began beating the people who
5 could not walk. What do you mean by that?
6 A. When they drove us out of Naim's house, there were about 40, 50 of
7 us; men, women, children, elderly people, paralyzed people. They didn't
8 give us time even to wear our shoes. When a paralyzed woman of Nezir
9 Vishaj, she could not walk. She could only drag herself. Her daughters
10 were helping her, and the police were kicking at her, telling her to walk
11 on. Her daughters told the policemen that she cannot walk, and they were
12 just prodding her to walk on.
13 Q. You later describe a removal of some --
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that leaves me now wondering what -- is that
15 what beaten up means, as you understand that answer, just prodding her to
16 make her walk?
17 MS. CARTER: No, Your Honour.
18 Q. When you indicate that she was being -- the paralyzed woman was
19 being prodded to walk, can you please describe exactly what was happening
20 to her at that time.
21 A. She couldn't walk. They rallied us in one place. The policemen
22 were behind us. But that woman was an elderly and paralyzed woman, and
23 she wouldn't keep pace with us. So her daughters carried her, and that
24 was a reason why the policemen beat her, because she couldn't walk.
25 Q. When you said they beat her, were they using their hands? Were
1 they using any sort of weapon? What were they doing when they were
2 beating this woman?
3 A. They had a stick, and they beat her with a stick on her back,
4 telling her to walk on, walk on; and the daughters told, "She's paralyzed,
5 she cannot."
6 Q. Later on at some point you indicate that some of the young girls
7 were being removed in the middle of the night, and you had suspected some
8 of them had been raped. Can you please describe for me what those young
9 girls looked like when they came back in the room after being taken out by
10 the paramilitaries.
11 A. This is a fact. I saw it with my own eyes. We were all in a
12 room, 50, 60 people, and the policemen came in around midnight. I cannot
13 tell you the exact time because there was no electricity, and we didn't
14 even dare look at them. And they used the torch light and they said,
15 "You, you, you come with us to clean," and they took them away.
16 Q. You just indicated it was policemen who were coming in to take the
17 girls out of the room. Was it the police who were describing in regular
18 police uniforms, or was it the paramilitaries who you described to be in
19 green camouflage uniforms?
20 A. They were regular police; those who took away the girls.
21 THE INTERPRETER: Earlier on the witness said: It was darkness;
22 there was no light. We couldn't see well.
23 MS. CARTER:
24 Q. You indicated when these young girls came back -- excuse me, can
25 you describe for me when they came back, did it appear that they were
1 cleaning something, or did it seem that something else had happened to
2 these young girls?
3 A. No. They looked as if something had happened to them. They came
4 crying with their hair disheveled, and one of the girls was behind me. I
5 heard her talking with her mother. The mother asked her, "What did they
6 do to you?" And she answered, "Mom, they raped us." This is what
7 happened to us. I -- this I heard with my own ears, because she was
8 standing behind my back.
9 Q. The next morning you indicate within your statement that some
10 policemen had come in and given back some jewellery. Were these the same
11 people who'd come in and taken the girls from the night before, or were
12 these different people?
13 A. To tell you the truth, we were afraid. I couldn't look at their
14 faces. The only thing I knew it is that they were policemen, but I can't
15 say to you whether they were the same policemen. I was afraid. I had my
16 seven children, and I was very much scared. But I can't ascertain that
17 they were the same policemen.
18 Q. In your statement you list your husband, in addition to many other
19 men, as being missing at the time that this statement was taken. Have you
20 ever learned the fate of your husband or of those other men?
21 A. From the day they took them away, when we were kept hostage all
22 day and night, and when they sent us to Albania around 9.00 or 10.00, to
23 this day I know nothing of my husband and of the 64 other disappeared men.
24 Q. You said after the time --
25 A. And that day, all night they maltreated them, tortured them. And
1 they send -- they gave back to us and they sent back to us some elderly
2 people with broken ribs, who recounted to us everything that had happened
3 to them during the night.
4 Q. You had indicated also that after the men were moved from you,
5 that the next day you were taken out of that village and followed a
6 certain path to Kukes. On that path, were you escorted, or were you going
7 on your own volition?
8 A. We were escorted by them.
9 Q. Who were you escorted by?
10 A. The police.
11 Q. Within your statement, you indicate that paramilitaries were
12 involved over this time-period. What were the paramilitaries doing from
13 the 26th of March through the 29th of March?
14 A. From the 26th of March to the 29th of March, in cooperation with
15 the police, the paramilitaries took us, beat us, maltreated us, killed us,
16 plundered us of our possessions.
17 Q. You indicate "in cooperation with the police." At the time the
18 police were doing these actions, were the paramilitaries working in the
19 same groups, or were they acting in two separate groups; the police doing
20 things at one time and the paramilitaries doing the same things at another
22 A. They acted together; someone did one thing, the other did another
23 thing. But I know that they cooperated together.
24 Q. Ma'am, you have before you your witness statement, as well as the
25 92 bis attestation. This is the same document in which you reviewed
1 during the proofing session. Outside of your date of birth, are you
2 confirming that the information within that statement is true and correct?
3 A. Everything is correct, with the exception of my birth date, which
4 was wrong.
5 Q. Are you asking this Court to adopt this statement as your true and
6 correct testimony; and that if you were asked all of these questions here
7 in open court, you would give the same answers?
8 A. Yes, that's correct. Whatever I told you happened to me, and I
9 don't know anything else other than what I have told you.
10 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, at this time I would tender P2473, the
11 92 bis package of Witness K58; and for the record, apparently the
12 e-courted statement is a full statement and does not contain the
13 redactions that the Court was indicating previously.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
15 MS. CARTER: And at this time I would pass the witness.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
17 Witness K78 [sic]. I have a number of questions for you, and I
18 should be grateful if you will do your best to answer them as clearly as
19 possible. In describing the events between the 26th and 29th of March,
20 you say that on the 28th of March, the village of Beleg and the
21 surrounding villages were shelled continuously. What do you mean by that?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct. The village was
23 shelled non-stop, and we went to take shelter at Naim Vishaj's house,
24 where we stayed about two or three days until the police --
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Just stop there, please. You've said it was
1 shelled non-stop. That I understand as a concept. Can you say over what
2 length of time that took place?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It went on all the time during the
4 day and during the night. They didn't stop for one hour or even half an
5 hour, so much so that we couldn't leave the house because we were afraid
6 some shells might hit us.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: What damage did this do?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The shells fell everywhere. They
9 destroyed houses. They might have even killed people, who knows? I know
10 that they shelled all the time.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you tell us the identity of any house that was
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To tell you the truth, we didn't
14 dare leave the houses, go even up to the yard. So I cannot tell you which
15 house was hit. We only stayed there in the stonehouse, in Naim's house.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Now, you say that men were separated
17 from women and children, and you also --
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's true.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: And you also describe the men as being taken in
20 small groups and coming back in -- some in their underwear; and you then
21 say that Mehmet Mazrekaj was separated from the men and beaten up. Now,
22 was he one of the -- was he --
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is true.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Just let me finish the question, please.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were returned, stripped of
1 their clothes.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Was he one of the 66 men who were taken away and
3 have not been seen again?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. Mehmet was lucky to have his
5 tractor with him, and he managed to escape. Those persons who had with
6 them their tractors managed to leave, go to Albania.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: On page 3 in the English version of your statement
8 you say that the policemen -- or the police ordered Naim Vishaj to take
9 all men out. They lined them up. The door was opened, and then you
10 say: "After the policemen let all the men in, they left Naim's house."
11 Can you explain what happened there?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can. The policemen entered
13 and told us -- Naim, "Who is inside?" Naim told them that, "I have
14 refugees from Beleg and Drenoc." Then the policemen asked him to bring
15 out all the men. Naim went into the room and asked all the men to go out
16 into the yard. I ran because I heard what Naim was talking with the
17 police, and I told my husband to tell Naim that he was from Drenoc for
18 Naim not to have problems with the police.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: How many men were there?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Approximately 15 men.
21 Approximately, I would say ten, 15. To tell you the truth, I couldn't
22 count them, but I would say about 15.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Later when you describe what happened to women,
24 including yourself, and what happened to the young girls, you say that
25 they were taken to the basement to be checked. And then you say later --
1 you refer later to the policemen or paramilitaries who checked us. What
2 do you mean by "who checked us?"
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They -- all the population that was
4 in the village was asked to go to large meadow and gather there. After
5 that, they -- all the women -- first they lined -- checked the males, then
6 the females. They took us in that -- to that basement and checked us one
7 by one.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Can -- well, that's what I'd like you to explain.
9 What do you mean by "checked us?"
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They searched us bodily. Some of us
11 they even asked to take off the clothes because they wanted to see if we
12 had money on us, because some of us did have money on the bodies; and when
13 they found some money on some women or men, they beat them up.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you very much.
15 Mr. O'Sullivan -- oh, sorry, just one moment. There is something
16 we wish to discuss briefly, if you give us a moment.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. O'Sullivan.
19 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, the order will be: General Lukic,
20 General Pavkovic, Mr. Sainovic, Mr. Milutinovic, General Lazarevic, and
21 General Ojdanic.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, witness K58, a number of other counsel
23 representing the accused in the dock here will ask some questions; and the
24 first counsel to question you will be on behalf of Mr. Lukic, and that is
25 Mr. Ivetic.
1 Mr. Ivetic.
2 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic:
4 Q. Good morning, ma'am. My name is Dan Ivetic, as you've heard, and
5 I'm going to be asking you some questions. So please pay close attention
6 to what I ask you and try to limit your responses to answers to those
8 Now, first of all, do you speak or read the Serbian language?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Okay. Now, with respect to the events in Beleg, you've just told
11 us that it was actually the police that came to get the groups of girls
12 and take them out of where you were in the meadow. Now, in your statement
13 at page 6 of the English, you specifically identify that it was Mushk
14 Jakupi's son who would come and pick up the girls. And you've mentioned
15 two paramilitaries who came with a torch. Now, are you changing your
16 testimony, or is it still your testimony that Mushk Jakupi came to pick
17 out young girls from your room in Beleg?
18 A. I do not change. The truth is that the police came with two
19 paramilitaries. They took the girls away. I saw it with my own eyes.
20 Q. So how many total people came to take the girls away in Beleg?
21 A. How many people came? That is what you asked?
22 Q. Yes.
23 A. One or two.
24 Q. Okay. Well, you had just --
25 A. They came with a torch, and they looked at the girls with a torch.
1 Q. Okay. I understand that. I'm trying to understand the testimony
2 that you just gave when you said at line 21 of the transcript and 22 of
3 the transcript,"The truth is the police came with two paramilitaries."
4 Now, in your statement you have identified two paramilitaries who came
5 with the torch and took four young girls first; and then you later
6 identified that Mushk Jakupi's son was the one who would come and pick up
7 the young girls in our room.
8 Now, I'm trying to figure out how is it that the police figure
9 into your testimony, since they are not referenced in your statement.
10 A. No, this is not true. It is not true that I mentioned Mushk
11 Jakupi. I didn't recognise Jakupi. I saw police with paramilitaries. We
12 couldn't recognise them,, we couldn't look to see who they were. I
13 haven't mentioned Jakupi or his son. It was very dark. We could not see
14 them. We were simply very, very scared.
15 Q. I understand that the situation was that it was very dark, but
16 what I'm trying to make --
17 A. I've mentioned only the police in my declaration.
18 Q. Well, I would actually have to question you then on that. You
19 testified that you reviewed this statement given to the Office of the
20 Prosecutor, and that it was accurate and correct in every regard. Now,
21 I'm reading for you what your statement says.
22 And it says at page 6, the middle of the page: "Mushk Jakupi's
23 son was the one who would come and pick up young girls in our room." And
24 previously you had identified Mushk Jakupi as being short, black hair,
25 round face, normal build, around 30 years old. He was wearing green
1 camouflage uniform.
2 So I would ask you then: Is it correct that in addition to the
3 two paramilitaries with the torch, Mushk Jakupi in a green uniform were
4 the ones coming to pick up the girls?
5 A. It was very dark.
6 Q. Okay. Do you recall having a proofing session with the Office of
7 the Prosecutor on the 10th of October, 2006?
8 A. I remember it very well.
9 Q. Okay. And at the proofing session, wherein Ms. Carter asked you
10 questions, you stated - and now I'm quoting - "while the paramilitaries
11 were the ones soliciting the girls, the following day the police were
12 still in the village."
13 Why is it that your statement and the notes from your proofing
14 session identify paramilitaries as being the ones who took the girls, and
15 today you have changed your testimony to say it was the police?
16 A. Both sides were cooperating. Police, they were cooperating. I
17 couldn't see them. I couldn't see them. I saw seven children who were
18 surrounded. I couldn't see them in the eye. I couldn't see who were
19 they. They came in and took the girls away; I saw this with my own eyes.
20 Q. And, again, I'm trying to find out how many persons came to take
21 the girls. You earlier said one or two, and now you said that they were
22 working together. I can't see how there can be a gentleman in a green
23 uniform, one or two other people, and for it to cover as many
24 organisations as you claim it covers, for there to be police involved as
1 How many men with torches or without torches came to pick up the
2 girls from your room?
3 A. One was standing at the front door. The other one went in with a
4 torch and was looking at the girls who were beaten, and they took the
5 girls away by the arms. We could not raise our eyes to see who they were;
6 we were very afraid. However, I know that they entered, they came in, and
7 they took the girls away.
8 Q. Okay. Now, with respect to these two individuals, did they have
9 on the same uniform?
10 A. It was very dark. It was very dark, the middle of the night. We
11 could not raise our eyes to see them. We could not see what uniform, how
12 they were dressed. They were dressed -- this is what I know. I don't
13 know who they were. It was very dark. I've forgotten also. At the
14 moment, I would have been able to tell you, but now since then ...
15 Q. Okay. And I -- according to the transcript you just: "We could
16 not see what uniform, how they were dressed." Is it your testimony you do
17 not really know what uniform these men were wearing who came to take the
18 young girls?
19 A. No. They were police. They were wearing police uniforms. They
20 were policemen. They had police uniform. They had the Serbian Croatian
21 word on the arm that they were police.
22 Q. Ma'am, you previously testified in my first question that you
23 neither speak nor read Serbian, so how is it you knew they had the Serbian
24 Croatian word on the arm for police?
25 A. I have eight-year education. We know some Serbian language. I
1 know some Cyrillic words. I can discern them. I cannot understand, and I
2 cannot speak.
3 Q. All right. Now, I'd like to ask you a couple of other things
4 before we get to Beleg. I'd like to try and do things in a chronological
5 order. Now, in your statement you mention that in your home town of
6 Glodjane, there was an UCK headquarters. Now, what I need to know is with
7 respect to your husband or any of his relatives in Glodjane or the
8 surrounding area, were any of them members of the UCK in any manner?
9 A. No. My husband had seven children; he could not join UCK. We
10 had -- our children were all little, from six months to 12 years old.
11 Q. Okay. What about any relatives of your husband, were they UCK?
12 A. There were some from the village; however, I don't know on the
13 whole village.
14 Q. Okay. Were your husband's relatives who were members of the UCK,
15 were they from Glodjane or from Rastovice?
16 A. They were some from the village, but I don't know. There were no
17 relative of my husband who were UCK.
18 Q. Well, again I'm going to have to ask you to clear something up for
19 me then. The supplemental information sheet I received from the
20 Prosecutor's office, arising from your 10 October 2006 interview with
21 them, says in paragraph 1: "Some of her husband's relatives were members
22 of the KLA, but he was not, as he was the father of seven."
23 Which is correct? Were members of your husband's family, his
24 relatives, members of the UCK or not?
25 A. My husband was not. I have seven children. Probably from the
1 village or from the -- relatives -- who they were or who they were not, I
2 don't know. I was simply staying at the house.
3 Q. Sorry, I still have to clarify. Were there relatives of your
4 husband that you knew to be UCK?
5 A. Not very close relatives, distant relatives; very, very close
6 relatives, no.
7 Q. Okay.
8 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, if we could just briefly go into closed
9 session so that I can check one name, and then we can go -- return back to
10 open session. I intend to ask one name of someone who may or may not be a
11 relative, and I don't want to reveal this witness's identity in doing so
12 because the name is the same last name as the witness.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: So it's private session that's sufficient?
14 MR. IVETIC: Private session should be sufficient, yeah.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
16 [Private session]
6 [Open session]
7 MR. IVETIC:
8 Q. All right, ma'am, I'd like to move on now just to finish up with
9 Glodjane. I'd like to ask you about this -- about the UCK presence in
10 Glodjane. Do you know, if you know, approximately how many UCK members or
11 fighters were in Glodjane, during the time you were there, obviously?
12 A. I did not have anything to do with that. I'm sorry. I am not
13 informed. I am a housewife, and our custom is to stay at home, not to
14 deal with men's work.
15 Q. Okay. Did you hear or know about an individual named Ramush
16 Haradinaj in Glodjane?
17 A. I have heard this name. He lives at the other end of the village.
18 Q. Do you know whether he was the head of the UCK in Glodjane?
19 A. Chairman of the UCK in Gllojgan? I've heard about it, but I don't
20 know anything more about it.
21 Q. Okay. That's fair enough. Thank you. Now, in tending to your
22 daily affairs in Glodjane, did you have occasion to see any of the UCK
23 members; and if so, did they always wear military clothes, or did they
24 also wear civilian clothes?
25 A. We have not seen them. I am housewife. I never come out of the
1 house. It's not in our tradition to come out of the house.
2 Q. Okay. Fair enough. Now, you say in your statement that you left
3 Glodjane because the Serb forces were positioning themselves in the
4 village. Now, am I correct that at the time you left Glodjane, the Serb
5 forces were actually engaged in armed combat with the UCK that were in and
6 around the village?
7 A. It was a fight. Due to the dangers, we left the place together
8 with my husband and my children.
9 Q. Okay. Now I'd like to focus just briefly on your stay in
10 Drenovac, the six months that you were there. During that six-month
11 time-period, did you come to be familiar with the UCK base in that
12 village, headed by Dukaj Halil?
13 A. No. I'm sorry, no. We had no opportunity to get some
14 information. We were with little children. We did not know who UCK were
15 fighting, why were UCK fighting and where were Serbia fighting. We were
16 simply looking after our children.
17 Q. Okay?
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic, please clarify something for me. It's
19 page 2 of 8 of the witness's English statement, the second-last line.
20 What is the village referred to in the second-last line.
21 MR. IVETIC: I can ask the witness or I can tell you that --
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Just tell me what it says in your statement.
23 MR. IVETIC: Mine says Drenoc.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: I've got a blank --
25 MR. IVETIC: It's Drenoc, which I believe is one of the of
1 spellings Drenovac. It's also spelled as Drenofc with an fc. I believe
2 it is the same is the village that our other witness, Mr. Mazrekaj, was
4 JUDGE BONOMY: If you go up one paragraph, what is the village
5 referred to in the previous paragraph?
6 MR. IVETIC: It says, "We fled the village of Drenoc;" again, the
7 same village.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: So when you asked a question about leaving
9 Glodjane, you're talking about 1998, are you?
10 MR. IVETIC: I believe so, yes, if we take the six months and
11 extrapolate backwards.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
14 MR. IVETIC:
15 Q. Now --
16 MR. IVETIC: Okay. I think the witness has just helped us clarify
18 Q. Now, during your stay in Drenoc or Drenovac, did you become
19 familiar with any Serb civilians living there who also fled in March of
20 1999, particularly in the adjacent hamlet of Locane?
21 A. I'm sorry, but I really don't know anything about this.
22 Q. Okay. That's fair enough. I'm just --
23 A. Because Drenoc is quite far from Lloqan.
24 Q. And now you say that the Serb forces came into Drenovac on March
25 the 26th, 1999. Are you positive about that date?
1 A. They came to the village, and they told the men from the village
2 to leave; then the entire village gathered, women, children, everyone, and
3 we left the village.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: It would be helpful if you try and deal with the
5 question that's being asked. The question is about a date. You've given
6 a date for the police forces entering the village. Are you sure of that
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I'm certain about the date.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: What was the date?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think, it is written 26th. I
11 could have even forgotten. I don't know. I mean, it's been eight years
12 now, and we've been through a lot.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
14 Mr. Ivetic.
15 MR. IVETIC: Okay.
16 Q. Now, am I correct that when the Serb forces came to Drenovac, that
17 they were engaged in combat with the UCK in the surrounding area. Is that
19 A. I know that the police entered Drenoc, and they told the men - I
20 don't know who exactly from the village - but they told the men to leave
21 Drenoc. The whole village then left. When we left and arrived in Beleg
22 village, some houses from Drenoc were on fire.
23 Q. Now, you say -- thank you. You say that the whole village then
24 left. Do you know how many persons there were in Drenovac that left on
25 that day?
1 A. I don't know exactly, but there were many of us, about 100. I
2 know that we -- there were many of us, and we left the village, some on
3 tractors and some on whatever they had, just to leave as soon as possible.
4 Q. Okay. Now, in your statement you describe that when you came to
5 Beleg, there was what you called heavy shooting - described at page 3 -
6 that lasted all day long. Now, is it your understanding that there was a
7 battle going on between the Serb forces and the UCK at that time?
8 A. I don't know that. We didn't see the battles between the Serbs
9 and the KLA, but I can tell you that there was heavy shooting,
10 uninterrupted shooting.
11 Q. Now, when you went from Drenoc to Beleg, did you go through Prilep
12 and the surrounding areas?
13 A. We passed through Prilep and then we took a road, which I was not
14 familiar with, and that road took us to Beleg.
15 Q. Did you pass by any police or UCK positions in the region that you
16 passed through, between Drenoc and Beleg?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Okay. Now, again, during the time-period you were in Beleg, first
19 of all, are you familiar with the village of Pozar?
20 A. I've heard of this village, but I don't know much about it.
21 Q. During the time-period when you were in Beleg, which I believe is
22 between the 26th and the 28th or 29th of March, 1999, did you hear or come
23 to know about any fierce fighting in the village of Pozar, specifically on
24 the 27th, 28th, and 29th of March, between the UCK and the Serbs that
25 resulted in two killed policemen and 15 wounded policemen?
1 A. I'm sorry, but I really had no way how to get this information.
2 We were in a house. We couldn't even dare go outside in the courtyard.
3 There was no way I could learn about this.
4 Q. Okay. And would it be a fact then that you would --
5 A. And there was no one to inform us either. We could only hear the
7 Q. Okay. Now, am I correct --
8 A. The entire population was civilian, unarmed. They were defending
9 themselves, protecting their own families, children, the elderly.
10 Q. Okay. Well, now I'm confused. You said you didn't have anyone to
11 inform you as to what was happening in Pozar, but now you tell me that the
12 entire population was civilian, unarmed; that they were defending
13 themselves. Did you in fact have information on what was going on in
14 Pozar at the time, with respect to any armed struggles in that village or
16 A. No, because we were blocked. We were there in Naim Vishaj's
17 house. We were all civilians. We were protecting our own families, and
18 there was no way we could get any information about what was going on. We
19 were children, women, elderly there.
20 Q. Okay. So when you said the entire population was civilian,
21 unarmed, you're talking about yourselves, not the persons in Pozar?
22 A. For myself personally and for those who were in Naim Vishaj's
23 house in Beleg.
24 Q. Okay. Now, in Beleg did you see any other persons shooting at the
25 various Serb forces you have described being in Beleg?
1 A. No. No, I didn't see any.
2 Q. Okay. Now, were all the persons -- strike that.
3 First of all, let's finish up one more question relating to the
4 time-period when you were in the house of Naim. First of all, you said
5 that the policemen told Naim to bring out all the men. Did the policemen
6 speak in Serbian or some other language?
7 A. Serbian. He spoke Serbian.
8 Q. And, again, were you able to understand him?
9 A. I saw Naim when he said to the men, "Come outside." I heard Naim
10 telling the men, "They want you to go all outside." I was in the
12 Q. I understand that. What I'm asking you is: Did you in fact
13 understand any of the Serbian that the police officer spoke?
14 A. I understood Naim when he addressed the men and told them that the
15 police wanted them to go out. I didn't understand the Serbian.
16 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, you mentioned a paralyzed lady that could
17 not walk out of the house. Do you remember how that -- what that lady's
18 name was or who she was, if not the name?
19 A. I really don't remember her, but I know that she is the wife of
20 Nezir Vishaj. I happened to spend time with her there, and I could see
21 that she was really ill.
22 Q. Okay. Now, you have described paramilitaries, and you've
23 described that they had on some sort of a green camouflage uniform. Now,
24 did all of the paramilitaries that you've described wear the same uniform?
25 A. Both camouflage uniforms and police uniforms, these two uniforms.
1 Q. I'd like you to focus on the camouflage uniforms, since you've
2 already described the police uniforms. With respect to the camouflage
3 uniforms, did you see any insignia, badges, markings, or other identifying
4 features of those green camouflage uniforms?
5 A. I had no opportunity to look at these insignia; that was not on
6 our minds at that time. We couldn't even look at them because we were
8 Q. Okay. Now, you told us, at least in the statement, you identify
9 that Mehmet Mazrekaj told you about his encounters with Zoran Djurisic and
10 what Zoran Djurisic told him. Now, am I correct that you yourself did not
11 have any personal contact or conversation with this individual he called
12 Zoran Djurisic while at Beleg?
13 A. I never had any contacts with him. I happened to see him while
14 travelling on the bus during the war. He would get on the bus and ask us
15 for identification papers; and while in Beleg, Zoran took Mehmet and
16 placed him amidst us, and he beat him up as hard as he could. The
17 children were screaming at this sight. Mehmet told the children, "Don't
18 cry. You see, he used to be my pupil. I was his teacher in the past; and
19 look at him now, he's beating me."
20 Q. Okay. Now, am I correct that you did not know this individual's
21 name prior to Mehmet Mazrekaj telling you this individual's name? That is
22 to say, before this incident you had seen him asking for IDs on the road
23 and letting -- and manning a check-point, but you had not known his
24 identity, his name?
25 A. You mean Zoran?
1 Q. Yes.
2 A. As I said, only while on the bus during the war, he would get on
3 and ask for identification papers. I heard people say that his name was
4 Zoran. I had no other information about him.
5 Q. Okay. Thank you. That is enough. Now, with respect --
6 A. And Mehmet also told us who he was when he was beating him.
7 Q. All right. Now, with respect to what you told us here today, you
8 said that the persons were checking people in the basement, and you
9 indicated that they made people take off your clothes, that they were
10 looking for money, et cetera. Were they -- did they also appear to be
11 looking for anyone who had any weapons?
12 A. There was no way they were looking for weapons. We were all
13 civilians; children, women, young, elderly. They were not looking for
14 weapons. They only wanted to take their valuables and money. When it was
15 my turn to be searched, when I entered that area, they didn't even have to
16 take off my clothes to search me, because I already prepared whatever I
17 had on me, the money, the valuables, the jewellery, and took the rings out
18 of my fingers, and gave them everything. I didn't wait for them to search
19 me. I surrendered everything beforehand.
20 Q. That's actually what I wanted to ask you. Am I correct that in
21 fact the persons in the basement with you did not even tell you to put
22 your valuables anywhere, that they did not have any communication with
23 you? You did this all of your own accord?
24 A. No, no, no. They said, "Give us what you have from money and
25 jewels -- jewellery." I didn't wait for them to come any near me. As
1 soon as I entered the area, I took off every jewellery that I had on and
2 the money, and I gave them everything.
3 Q. Okay. Well, that's something that's not in your statement, so let
4 me ask you: Who is it who told you to give them all your money and
6 A. The policemen who were there; those who were searching us. They
7 were searching us one at a time, and they wanted to tell -- to take
8 everything that we had. And this didn't happen only to me; it happened to
9 everyone who was there.
10 Q. And what language were these people speaking? Was it Serbian?
11 A. Serbian, Serbian.
12 Q. And, again, you -- although you don't speak or read Serbian, you
13 happened to understand what these policemen were saying?
14 A. I understood that, because when my turn came I saw that they had
15 laid a sheet, and everyone who had been searched previously had put there
16 everything from their jewellery and money. So I understood what was that
18 Q. Now, in your statement at page 5, the fifth complete paragraph on
19 that page, you say - and now I'm going to read that to you - talking about
20 this incident where you put your 850 Deutschemarks and some jewellery on
21 this white cloth, in reference to the two individuals who were there you
22 say: "They did not say anything to me, and I was allowed to go out."
23 So, again, I'm going to ask you: Why is it that now you say they
24 told you in Serbian, "Give us all your belongings," when your signed and
25 affirmed statement says they did not say anything to you? Which is the
2 A. The truth is the following. My turn came later, and we asked the
3 women that had been searched previously what happened to them and what
4 they told them. And their reply was that they asked them for their money
5 and jewellery. So when my turn came, I was so scared that I didn't wait
6 for them to say anything; I just gave them everything I had, the money and
7 jewellery, and left the room.
8 Q. So a few minutes ago when you told me that they told you in
9 Serbian to do that, you were not telling the truth, were you?
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Carter.
11 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, at this point it's become --
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Please don't answer.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I'm telling you the truth.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Please hold on for a moment.
15 Ms. Carter.
16 MS. CARTER: Your Honour. At this point it's becoming
17 argumentative. This witness has been very clear that she heard statements
18 made in Serbia. She's following what everyone else was doing. Unless
19 this is being held out she was being kind and giving a gift to the
20 paramilitaries or the police who had her down in the basement and everyone
21 else is giving their jewellery, this is becoming argumentative.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I disagree with that. If you read the
23 statement where the sentence just referred to is set out, "They did not
24 say anything to me," that's open to interpretation, so far as the order of
25 events is concerned. But if you read the next sentence, you can't
1 possibly claim that the matter is so clear that further cross-examination
2 is inappropriate. Now, I don't want you to read that sentence out. And
3 no doubt there are questions yet to come about that.
4 MR. IVETIC: There are.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: So you may continue -- you've had an answer to the
6 question anyway, so you can pose your next question, Mr. Ivetic.
7 MR. IVETIC: Okay.
8 Q. Now, ma'am, a couple of moments ago, you also told me that there
9 was a white piece of cloth where other persons, who went before you, had
10 placed their valuables. Now, in your sworn statement in the same
11 paragraph that we've been discussing at page 5, it says, and I quote: "I
12 was the first one to hand over my money and gold."
13 How do you reconcile this difference in what you say in your
14 statement and what you have told us under oath today?
15 A. Listen, when my turn came, then I didn't wait for them to ask me
16 to give away my jewellery or my money. And I saw the white cloth and then
17 I put my money and the jewellery on that sheet, because I didn't know -- I
18 didn't want them to harass me or to do anything to me.
19 And eight years have passed since then, and I have been under
20 trauma. So don't ask me to tell you exactly word for word what happened
21 at that time to now. I'm just telling you what happened, what occurred
23 Q. Ma'am, are you telling us we cannot rely upon the sworn testimony
24 that you have given today orally, that it may not be correct?
25 A. No, sir. What I'm telling you is correct and true. It's
1 something which happened to me, something which I witnessed, and I came
2 here to testify to what I saw and what happened. I don't know and I don't
3 want to tell lies.
4 Q. Okay. In that case then, at the time that you put your belongings
5 on the white sheet that was on the floor, there were no other belongings
6 of no one else on that sheet at that time, were there? You were the
8 A. I don't think I was the first. There were others before me, but
9 what my point is that I gave my money and my jewellery myself before them
10 asking me. But there were other women before me who were searched and who
11 were asked to give away their money. When my turn came, I gave them my
12 jewellery and my money. I didn't want them to search me bodily and ask me
13 for them, because we were very scared. We didn't know what to do. We
14 were lost.
15 Q. Well, I don't think I'm going to get an answer to my question, so
16 I'll just move on. Now, with respect to the individuals that you said
17 were still missing along with your husband, you have provided a list of, I
18 don't know, perhaps a dozen individuals in your statement. Did you know
19 all of these individuals personally? And I would caution you, don't tell
20 us how you know them so as -- so that we can protect your identity.
21 A. These persons whose names are there, I knew them. They all
22 disappeared along with my husband.
23 Q. Now, you've already told us that your husband was not a member of
24 the UCK. Do you know if any of the persons, I believe you identified -- I
25 believe you stated that there were 60 such persons that are missing along
1 with your husband, do you know if any of them were ever members of the UCK
2 or assisted the UCK in any fashion?
3 A. The persons I knew, none of them was a member, none of them was.
4 All of them were civilian.
5 Q. Did you know all 60, or did you only know these that are
6 identified in your statement?
7 A. No. I -- you see the names; Arif Mazrekaj, Jetmir Mazrekaj, Sahit
8 Mazrekaj, Sundim Mazrekaj, Sahit Mazrekaj, Hajdar Mazrekaj. The names are
9 there because I want to make sure I remember them, because eight years
10 have passed since that time and I might forget.
11 Q. Okay. My question acknowledged that you had identified these
12 individuals in your statement. My question was: Did you personally know
13 all 60, because all 60 are not on this list; and with respect to all 60
14 did you personally know that they had never assisted the UCK in any
15 fashion, or can you only say that about these that you have listed out
16 that you actually know?
17 A. The ones whose names I have written on my statement I know; the
18 others, no. I only know that they were taken away and are missing ever
20 Q. Okay. Now, am I correct -- pardon me.
21 Is your statement correct, when at page 7 you say: "The next
22 morning at 9.00, two paramilitaries came and told us to get out. They
23 said, 'Go to Albania. You have asked for NATO.'" .
24 Is it correct that it was the paramilitaries who told you to leave
25 Beleg, and not the police?
1 A. Because of my fright, I wasn't even looking at them to tell you
2 who they were. I only know that they came at about 9.00 and told us to
3 leave, to go to Albania, because we asked for NATO. And I said to them
4 that I had my seven children, whom I had to take care of. Those were my
5 primary concern. So I can't tell you for sure what they were. When I
6 wrote the statement, maybe I thought that they were paramilitaries and I
7 believed so. But at this moment, I cannot ascertain that.
8 Q. Okay. Would it be safe to say then that during your entire stay
9 in Beleg, the situation was such that due to your fright and due to your
10 obligations to your family, you did not pay close attention and
11 differentiate between the various uniformed individuals walking around or
12 in the village?
13 A. We couldn't distinguish between them, because we couldn't look up
14 to them and see who they were, what they were wearing. I told you, I had
15 my kids. The youngest was six months old, another was 3 years old, so I
16 had to take care of them. There was no way we could look at them.
17 Q. Okay. I understand that.
18 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] I only have about one more question,
19 Your Honour. If I can finish that up, then I can finish this witness up
20 before the break.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: The break won't be until quarter to.
22 MR. IVETIC: That's right. I apologise. I forgot that.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: It wouldn't be licence for another series of
25 MR. IVETIC: It won't be, Your Honour. I only have the one area
2 Q. To finish up, ma'am, when we were talking about this individual,
3 Zoran, earlier, you indicated that when you were riding the bus during the
4 time of the war, is this in 1998 or 1999, first of all?
5 A. In 1998, sometimes we went to Peje. In 1999 -- I don't remember
6 the year, the exact year. But I only know that he came into the bus and
7 asked us for our permission, and I heard the man saying that his name was
9 Q. And that was a -- this was a regular bus on the road, a passenger
11 A. The regular -- the regular bus in Kosova town. What do I know? I
12 know that we used this bus for personal needs to go to the city.
13 Q. And how often did you see this individual Zoran get on the bus and
14 examine persons' documents before letting the bus continue?
15 A. I remember to have seen him twice. This is what I remember.
16 Maybe one time, two times. I am not very sure, because that was not a
17 matter of great interest to me. But, approximately, I think twice.
18 Q. And these two times that you saw him, was that before or during
19 the time when the OSCE mission was in Kosovo?
20 A. During the time the OSCE was in Kosovo.
21 Q. Okay. So it could be any time from October 1998 to March of 1999,
22 you can't be -- can you be any more specific an that; if not, then please
23 just tell me?
24 A. I cannot be more specific than that. I didn't pay any attention
25 with the war going on, with the war we had, with my kids, and everything
1 we were experiencing, I cannot tell you for sure.
2 Q. Okay. Thank you, ma'am, for your testimony. I have no further
3 questions. Thank you, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Aleksic.
5 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, we have no
6 questions of this witness.
7 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you, I have no questions.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. O'Sullivan.
9 MR. O'SULLIVAN: No questions.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bakrac.
11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No questions.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Visnjic.
13 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do have a few.
14 Cross-examination by Mr. Visnjic:
15 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mrs. K58.
16 A. Good morning.
17 Q. Today, one of my colleagues asked you about your stay in Drenovac
18 village. It's on page 21 in the transcript, lines 18 to 23. The question
19 was whether you were aware that some Serb civilians from Locane had also
20 escaped to Drenovac in March 1999. You answered that you knew nothing
21 about that, because Drenovac is pretty far away from Locane. Is that
22 correct? Did I understand you well?
23 A. Yes, that's true that Drenoc is far from Lloqan. I don't know
24 Lloqan very well to ...
25 Q. Am I right if I say that Locane is a village next door to
1 Drenovac, and the first houses are no further away than 500 metres?
2 A. I don't know. Drenoc is a big village. My house is at the
3 entrance to Drenoc, so I can't tell you for sure.
4 Q. What is the closest village to your home, if your house is the
5 first as you enter the village? Is it the first when you are coming from
7 A. Prilep is the first; Prilep, then comes Drenoc, then my house is
8 closer to that area. And there is a road --
9 Q. That would mean is that your home is closer to Locane village. Is
10 that correct?
11 A. No, no. My house is at the entrance to Drenoc.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Sorry, Ms. Carter.
13 MS. CARTER: Given that identification is supposed to be concealed
14 for this witness, we're identifying exactly where she lives at this point.
15 If we're going to continue on this, I mean the damage is already done in
16 the first question. If we're going to continue this, I would ask that we
17 do it in private session.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: You say in the first question?
19 MS. CARTER: Well, I'm sorry the first question of this series in,
20 regards to where the villages were and asking for specification of where
21 she resides. When she answered the question, she's giving a pretty clear
22 answer as to where she lives, which is in violation of concealment of her
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Visnjic.
25 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't mind, but I
1 understood that she was there in 1999 in March. It's not where she lives
2 now. I don't even where she lives now.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Does that resolve the matter, Ms. Carter.
4 MS. CARTER: To respond to the question would --
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Please carry on, Mr. Visnjic --
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I live in the village of my husband.
7 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't intend to
8 pursue the matter further. The answer was quite clear. I would like to
9 ask the witness something different.
10 Q. Do you know, in the period while you stayed in Drenovac, whether
11 there were any KLA in Drenovac?
12 A. There was no KLA in Drenoc. When I was there, there was no one in
13 the KLA.
14 Q. Do you know if in the same period, rather, do you know that in the
15 same period the KLA -- if the KLA attacked either Serbs or Albanians or
16 OSCE representatives on the territory of the village, of one of these
17 villages, Donji Streoc, Dasinovac, Bagas [phoen], Rznic, Bandera, Gornja
18 Luka, Istinic, Lumbarda, and Prilep. Do you know whether the KLA mounted
19 any attacks in any of these places against Albanians, Serbs, or OSCE
21 A. No, no. This is the first time for me to hear that. I didn't
22 know that before.
23 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I have no
24 further questions --
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I had my seven children to take
1 care, and my concern was to feed them, to raise them, and so I didn't pay
2 attention to these things.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Carter, any re-examination?
4 MS. CARTER: Briefly, Your Honour.
5 Re-examination by Ms. Carter:
6 Q. Ms. K58, can you approximate how many women were being checked
7 when the valuables were being laid on the white sheet?
8 A. There were many, but I cannot give you an exact number. If you
9 asked me how many kids I had at that moment, I wouldn't be able to answer
10 you, indeed.
11 Q. Is it fair to say that there was a large group of women in the
12 meadow, and they were being brought in in smaller groups, such as four
13 persons at a time?
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, Ms. Carter --
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, there were many.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: I note no --
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]-- about 100 or more.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: I note no objection to that question, but I have to
19 say it's pretty useless to the Chamber to receive evidence in
20 re-examination through such leading questions.
21 MS. CARTER:
22 Q. Ma'am, you indicated that you were the first person to lay -- to
23 give over your valuables. Are you indicating that you are the first
24 person in the entire group of women of the hundred that you're
25 approximating, or were you the first person within the group of four in
1 which you were brought into the basement?
2 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I think that is --
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my group.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, Mr. Ivetic, I --
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was the first of my group, but
6 there were other groups.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: The question's been answered. Because I'd been
8 looking for response and got none, I thought I had done well enough by
9 intervening the last time. I agree it's not a as valuable an answer as it
10 might have been if the question had been put another way.
11 MS. CARTER:
12 Q. Ma'am, how many people were brought -- how many people, if any,
13 were brought ahead of you to be checked in the basement.
14 A. We went there in groups, each group having four or five persons.
15 Among my group, I was the first. And once I was there, I said I handed
16 over my things and I left my friends, the friends of my group being
17 checked at handing over their things. But in my group, once I heard, I
18 submitted everything I had, and they beckoned me to leave.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Madam, was yours the first group to be checked?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. There were other groups before
21 our group, before me and my group.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
23 MS. CARTER:
24 Q. When you arrived at the checking place, can you please describe --
25 describe the white sheet.
1 A. When I entered there with my group, I was the first of my group.
2 And I submitted everything I had, and then I left. I left behind --
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Madam, Madam --
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- the others.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Please stop -- please listen to the question.
6 You've told us a number of things about this. The question was very
7 specific. Now, listen again to it, and please answer the particular
8 question you're being asked.
9 MS. CARTER:
10 Q. When you arrived in the place in which you were checked, can you
11 please describe the white sheet.
12 A. Yes. There was a normal-sized sheet. It was laid on the floor.
13 And once we entered the basement, we surrendered what we had on us on the
14 sheet. Because before we went there -- when my turn came, I saw the sheet
15 other valuables being handed over by other women before us. So I didn't
16 wait for them to ask me, then I gave them the gold coin I had and the
17 valuables and surrendered them, put them on the white sheet.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Ms. Carter, we'll have to --
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I left behind the friends of my
21 JUDGE BONOMY: We'll have to take the break there, and you can
22 resume when we return.
23 MS. CARTER: Actually, Your Honour, outside of indicating that the
24 statement itself needs to be placed under seal and the Prosecution will
25 provide a public redacted copy at an early time, I have no more questions
1 for the witness.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: More precise on that by the end of the week?
3 MS. CARTER: Yes, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: By Friday?
5 MS. CARTER: Absolutely.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Madam Witness K58, that completes your evidence.
8 Thank you for coming before the Tribunal to give this evidence. When we
9 adjourn in a moment, you will be free to leave. The Trial Chamber will
10 now adjourn and resume at 20 minutes past 11.00.
11 MR. FILA: Your Honour --
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 MR. FILA: After.
14 --- Recess taken at 10.49 a.m.
15 [The witness withdrew]
16 --- On resuming at 11.21 a.m.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Mrs. Neema, your next witness.
18 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry, Your Honour, I see Mr. Fila on his feet.
19 I think he wanted to raise something.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm sorry, Mr. Fila.
21 MR. FILA: [No interpretation]
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Hold on, Mr. Fila, there's no interpretation coming
24 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters apologise. They were on the
25 wrong channel.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Could you start again, please.
2 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I do apologise. I will start again.
3 The Defence counsel have conferred, and we have spoken to Mr. Hannis to
4 inform him of our standpoint. On Friday, we have a problem with Dusan
5 Loncar. The health problem is no longer there, but there is a problem of
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Do we need to deal with this -- can we not leave
8 this until we finish with our evidence today and then deal with it at that
9 stage? No. Okay. Carry on.
10 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] We need Your Honour's authority. And
11 it may take time; that's why I'm raising it now. All sides have agreed
12 that Dusan Loncar can be heard tomorrow, tomorrow in the afternoon, say,
13 and then we would have the entire time we need. We believe it is only
14 Your Honour's authority that can bring this about. We have done all we
15 could. Thank you. That's why I interrupted. Thank you very much.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, my understanding was that the videolink could
17 not be set up for tomorrow afternoon. That's the problem. This is a
18 videolink witness in Belgrade, and the arrangements were made for Friday.
19 Now, if that can be changed, I'm sure the Bench would happily agree to
20 that, but I doubt if it can be.
21 Mr. Hannis.
22 MR. HANNIS: That's my understanding, Your Honour. We had some
23 conversation with the registry last week, while the application was still
24 pending, in light of the potential time problems we faced; and at that
25 time I believe Mr. Haider advised me that there was a shortage of registry
1 officers and technical people who could be in Belgrade on that date. And
2 Friday seemed to be the date that we have. I'm willing to do it. I don't
3 know if the witness is available or not to do it, if there was some change
4 in the technical capability.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I will make such inquiries as I can, but at
6 this moment I'm not terribly optimistic about the outcome.
7 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Ms. Neema, the next witness.
9 MS. NEEMA: Good morning, Your Honours. The next witness will be
10 K74. This witness will be a Rule 92 ter witness/live witness. The
11 Prosecution would like to make an application for more than 30 minutes of
12 leading this witness, but we believe we won't be going more than one hour.
13 And this witness's testimony is relevant to paragraphs 72(h), (i), and
14 75(g) of the indictment.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Just give us a moment.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE BONOMY: That's agreeable, Mrs. Neema, on the understanding
18 that you'll obviously be doing your best to confine it, as far as
20 MS. NEEMA: Thank you, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well.
22 We shall have the witness now.
23 Good morning, Witness K74, can you hear me?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Would you please make the solemn declaration to
1 speak the truth by reading aloud the document which is now before you.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
3 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Please be seated.
5 And perhaps the registrar would adjust that microphone again so
6 that we make sure that it conveys the sound adequately to this end. That
7 looks better.
8 You will now be asked questions by a number of counsel here, and
9 the first to question you will be on behalf of the Prosecution, and that
10 is Mrs. Neema. Mrs. Neema.
11 WITNESS: WITNESS K74
12 [Witness answered through interpreter]
13 [Witness appeared via videolink]
14 Examination by Ms. Neema:
15 Q. Good morning, Witness.
16 A. Good morning.
17 Q. Witness, before we proceed, I would like to remind you that you
18 are giving testimony under a pseudonym; so throughout your testimony, you
19 will be referred to as K74. Is that okay?
20 A. Yes.
21 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness be asked to speak into the
22 microphone. We can't hear him very well.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Haider, there is a problem with sound again.
24 Is there anything you can do with the microphone?
25 Thank you very much.
1 Mrs. Neema.
2 MS. NEEMA: Can we have identification sheet Exhibit P02513 in
3 front of the witness, please.
4 Q. Witness, could you please have a look at the document given to you
5 and see if the information contained in there relates to you and is
7 A. It is correct.
8 MS. NEEMA: Your Honour, the Prosecution would like to tender
9 this --
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
11 MS. NEEMA: -- this exhibit under seal.
12 Q. Witness, did you provide any statement to the Office of the
13 Prosecutor on the 23rd of April, 1999, concerning events you witnessed in
14 Djakovica, and specifically in Millosh Giliq, in 1999?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did you have an opportunity to review your statement, recently?
17 A. Yes. We've read -- I have read it.
18 Q. From the review you made, were you able or did you have any
20 A. There is a minor correction here.
21 MS. NEEMA: Can the witness please be given a document with ERN
22 number K053.
23 [Prosecution counsel confer]
24 JUDGE BONOMY: I take it you're abandoning that document?
25 MS. NEEMA: I'm sorry. The witness doesn't have it in front of
1 him, so I will take him quickly through the document to see the
2 corrections he made.
3 Q. Witness, on the 24th of November, 2006, during the proofing
4 session, do you remember making changes to the first sentence in paragraph
5 1, from the top of page 2 of the English version; instead of the word "in
6 the evening," we should read "after midnight?"
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Haider, we're told that the witness doesn't
8 have the document. I don't know what that document is that you've given
9 him, but unless it's -- it's okay, if it's his statement.
10 THE REGISTRAR: [Pristina] He has been given, Your Honour, the
11 declaration --
12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.
13 THE REGISTRAR: [Pristina] He has been given the statement -- the
14 translation in Albanian, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. That clarifies the position. Thank
16 you. And can you turn the microphone again towards the witness or we'll
17 not hear him. Thanks.
18 MS. NEEMA:
19 Q. Can I have an answer for the first question that I asked regarding
20 your first sentence in paragraph 1 of the page 2, in both your English
21 version and Albanian version. Instead of the word "evening," it should
22 read "after midnight?"
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Witness, it's the very first sentence of the
24 statement. It really doesn't matter, you know. It's clearly 12.25 a.m..
25 The only thing I wonder, now that you've raised the matter, is whether
1 it's the 1st or the 2nd of April, which may be important.
2 MS. NEEMA: No, actually. I'm sorry, Your Honour. Maybe I was
3 misunderstood. I meant the first sentence, and not the 2nd of April.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: The first sentence says about 12.25 a.m., which is
5 just after midnight; and then it says the 1st of April. Now, is it in
6 fact the 1st of April, or is there confusion about what the date is
7 because there's a reference to evening?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was between the 1st and the 2nd.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: So it's the 2nd of April. Thank you.
10 MS. NEEMA:
11 Q. Witness, the fourth paragraph in your Albanian version, the third
12 sentence, instead of "my mother," you wanted the statement to read "stop
13 mothers and asked questions about where their sons were and what were they
14 doing." That is what you intended, instead of "stop my mother and ask her
15 questions where I was and what I was doing." Is that correct?
16 A. No. I wanted to say "mothers," in general; women.
17 Q. Moving to paragraph 9, which will be on the third -- will be on
18 the second page of your Albanian version. The second sentence from the
19 top "only those mentioned in the statement were killed and not all
20 residents of that home." Is that correction correct?
21 A. Can you ask the question once again, please.
22 Q. On page 2 of the Albanian version, paragraph 9 from the top, you
23 would like to change your sentence from "those mentioned in the statement
24 were killed and not all residents of that home." That's the correction
25 you wanted to make?
1 A. Yes, yes.
2 Q. Moving to page 3 of the English version, which is also page 3 of
3 the Albanian version, the second sentence in paragraph 5 from the top,
4 "people were staying in the basement of this house." That is what you
5 wanted to say, instead of "people staying in this house." Is that
7 A. Can you repeat it, please.
8 Q. The second sentence in paragraph 5 from the top, "people were
9 staying in the basement of this house." That is what you wanted to say,
10 and not "people staying in this house"?
11 A. People were staying in the basements, that is correct.
12 Q. The next sentence is the second sentence in paragraph 7 from the
13 top, "in our neighbourhood." That is what you intended to say, instead of
14 "within this town." Is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. The last sentence in paragraph 8 from the top of page 3 English
17 version and page 3 Albanian version, "to ask mothers about their sons and
18 where they were," instead of "my mother about me and where I was." Is
19 that the correction you intended to make?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Page 4 of the English version, page 4 Albanian version, last
22 sentence in paragraph 1 from the top, "mostly Albanian," instead of "like
23 rabbits." Is that the correction you wanted to make?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Page 5 English version, page 5 Albanian version, under number 11
1 when you started to mention the names of perpetrators; number 11, "Popadic
2 Nenad worked with electricity state company in Djakovica, instead of"the
3 director with electricity state company." Is that correct?
4 A. Yes, yes.
5 Q. Under number 12, "Stanimir Aksic," instead of last name unknown.
6 Is that the correct change you wanted to make?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Under number 13, "Laza Nedeljkovic," instead of last name unknown.
9 Is that the correction you wanted to make?
10 A. It's Nedeljkovic.
11 Q. Is that the correction you wanted to make?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Under number 14, "Novica Nedeljkovic," instead of last name
14 unknown. Is that the correction you wanted to make?
15 A. Yes. Nedeljkovic is the last name.
16 Q. Under number 15, "Miomir Nedeljkovic," instead of last name
17 unknown. Is that the correction you wanted to make?
18 A. Yes, Nedeljkovic.
19 Q. The last correction is on page 5 to page 6 of English version --
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Before you go to that, have I rightly understood
21 that two of these names were changed to Nedeljkovic and one was changed to
23 MS. NEEMA: No. All three of them were changed --
24 JUDGE BONOMY: No. No, let's -- can I ask you --
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nedeljkovic is the second one.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: If you look at number 13 again, please, Witness,
2 and tell me what the name of Laza, what is his second name?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Laza Nedeljkovic.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. That clarifies a mistake in the
5 transcript earlier. Thank you.
6 MS. NEEMA:
7 Q. The last correction, second sentence in the last paragraph from
8 the top of page 5 to the last sentence on top of page 6, "I saw -- hang"
9 should be taken out. Do you intend to take those sentences out?
10 A. Yes, yes.
11 Q. At the bottom of page 5, the last sentence up to page 6.
12 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I gather that the picture going from here to
14 Pristina has been lost and that we probably need to break. But it would
15 be helpful to me, certainly, when we come back if you were to ask some
16 questions to explain how on earth that sort of information gets into this
17 statement, and now has to be withdrawn from it, bearing in mind the
18 extremely sensitive nature of that information.
19 So we'll adjourn until this technical hitch has been resolved.
20 I'm told roughly ten minutes.
21 --- Break taken at 11.47 a.m.
22 --- On resuming at 12.00 p.m.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: I gather the problem has been resolved and we can
24 now be seen again, so please continue with your examination, Mrs. Neema.
25 MS. NEEMA:
1 Q. Witness, I would like you to have a look at your statement, the
2 Albanian version, page 5, the second paragraph after the names. Are you
4 JUDGE BONOMY: You haven't asked a question.
5 MS. NEEMA: No, no. I just wanted him to get to the page and the
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Sorry.
8 Do you have a question for him?
9 MS. NEEMA: Yes, I do.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, could we please pose the question.
11 MS. NEEMA:
12 Q. Witness, during the proofing --
13 A. I didn't hear the question.
14 Q. During the proofing on the 24th of November, 2006, you indicated
15 that you would like the third sentence up to the last sentence in that
16 paragraph to be taken out. Would you explain to the Court as to why you
17 want that statement to be taken out.
18 A. Which part?
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Witness, could you listen to me, please. What
20 you're being asked is why you wish to remove from your statement the
21 following words:
22 "I saw blood at the door of the Cana house, where Shpresa Cana had
23 been shot. The body had been removed. I went to the Deda home, where I
24 saw the body of the 5 year old, Argjend Ylber Demjaha, who had been
1 Now, why do you want to remove that from your statement?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because it's not accurate.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Mrs. Neema.
4 [Prosecution counsel confer]
5 MS. NEEMA:
6 Q. Witness, have you heard what the Judge has just read to you? Why
7 do you want that piece of information taken out of your statement? Is
8 there any reason?
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that question has been answered; he said it
10 is not accurate.
11 MS. NEEMA:
12 Q. What is not accurate in that statement?
13 A. It is not accurate. I don't remember to have said this. I know
14 that I have said that they killed them.
15 Q. Apart from the corrections you made, you have gone through your
16 statement, are there any other corrections you want to make?
17 A. Yes. When it says Mentor Deda was hanged, I didn't say this. I
18 said that he was killed in the yard.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that takes us back to page 2 in the English,
20 the last paragraph.
21 MS. NEEMA:
22 Q. But did you see him when he was killed, or you heard it from other
24 A. No. Mentor Deda -- I heard that Mentor Deda is dead.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Did you also hear how he died?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mentor went to take his family in
2 his home, when from the window -- from the wall he saw that they were
3 killed. And then he said, "Argjend has been killed."
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Who told you this?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mentor Deda, the uncle of the dead
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
8 Mrs. Neema, I can tell you I am deleting the words "who was
9 hanged" from my statement on page 2. It doesn't seem to be something the
10 witness can support.
11 MS. NEEMA: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour. Your Honour, the
12 Prosecution wish to -- this statement which was taken on the 23rd of
13 April, 1999, which is Exhibit P02517 to be admitted as an exhibit.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
15 MS. NEEMA: And we pray this to be admitted under seal, and we
16 will file a redacted version for the public use.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Again by Friday. Thank you.
18 MS. NEEMA: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Q. Witness, were you born and raised in Djakovica along Rruga Millosh
20 Giliq street?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. When you were growing up, did you as well grow up with Serb
23 children in your neighbourhood?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. By April 1999, were these Serbs still living in your
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. What was the relationship like between the Serbs and Kosovo
5 A. We had good relations.
6 Q. Was there any time when this relationship changed?
7 A. Talking about my neighbourhood, I may say that we never had any
9 Q. In your statement, you gave us an account of what took place after
10 midnight on the 1st -- on the 2nd of April, 1999. You also gave us the
11 name of Serb perpetrators whom you allege committed crimes. When did this
12 start or how did this start, if the relationship was good all along?
13 A. The crimes occurred between the 1st and the 2nd of April at 12.25.
14 Q. Was that the only time these Serbs committed those crimes or any
15 crimes which occurred in your street?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You also stated in your statement that your property was burned.
18 Was your property burned the very night you were talking about in your
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Did you see who committed that crime, who burned your property?
22 A. No.
23 Q. And also in your statement, you talked about other properties
24 which were burned, including that of Lulezim Vejsa. Do you know who
25 burned those properties?
1 A. According to what all the people in our neighbourhood knew, they
2 were burned by the Serbs, from our neighbourhood.
3 Q. Who are those people in your neighbourhood? Does that include
5 A. Yes. I'm one of the people in my neighbourhood.
6 Q. Now I would like to take you to the names you mentioned in your
7 statement. The names mentioned in your statement include Pitulic Novak,
8 Milos Scepanovic, Gajo Scepanovic, Milan Scepanovic, Mile Scepanovic,
9 Tihomir Raicevic, Ljubisa Raicevic, Misko Raicevic, Sasa Raicevic, Nenad
10 Raicevic, Popadic Nenad, Stanimir Nedeljkovic, Laza Nedeljkovic --
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Stanimir Aksic is absent, I think..
12 MS. NEEMA: Sorry, Your Honour.
13 Q. Stanimir Aksic, Laza Nedeljkovic, Novica Nedeljkovic, and Miomir
14 Nedeljkovic. Are these among those Serbs who burned down property that
15 belongs to Kosovo Albanians in your street or in your neighbourhood?
16 A. Yes. The entire neighbourhood testifies to these persons; I am
17 one of them.
18 Q. Now, specifically focusing on you, did you see any of these people
19 you mentioned burning any of the property on Millosh Giliq or in your
20 neighbourhood? Not necessarily your property, any property in that
22 A. No.
23 Q. What made you say or what made you mention them? Personal
24 experience, you.
25 A. These persons searched our neighbourhood until the moment when it
1 was set on fire.
2 Q. When you say they searched your neighbourhood, what do you mean?
3 Can you explain to the Court.
4 A. I said they had the neighbourhood under control.
5 Q. Can you explain to the Court what you mean by, "they had the
6 neighbourhood under control."
7 A. We didn't see any other Serbs other than those who lived in our
8 neighbourhood. We constantly saw the Serbs living in our neighbourhood,
9 and all the neighbourhood knows that.
10 Q. Were these the only Serbs living in your neighbourhood?
11 A. There were other Serbs, but they lived in another part. I am
12 talking of my neighbourhood where they lived.
13 Q. In your statement -- I'm taking you back to your statement. In
14 your statement, you allege that the Serbs who committed these crimes were
15 wearing a uniform. Can you explain to the Court what kind of uniform
16 these people who committed these crimes were wearing.
17 A. They were wearing police uniforms.
18 Q. Can you describe those police uniforms. What do you mean by
19 police uniforms?
20 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic.
22 MR. IVETIC: I'm perplexed, and so I don't know whether it's
23 really an objection or whether I'm missing something here. My
24 understanding of what the witness has testified to here today is that he
25 did not see any crimes being committed, and now he's being asked to
1 describe the uniforms of the persons who committed crimes. I'm --
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, yes. I think we have to read the statement
3 and what he's now saying, which clearly qualifies much of page 4,
4 together --
5 MR. IVETIC: I agree. But I'm confused now by the sworn testimony
6 he's given in court that he didn't see any crimes being committed.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Indeed. What we're now moving to is something I
8 think that is perfectly capable of cross-examination.
9 MR. IVETIC: Okay.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: The question, though, I think, Mrs. Neema, would be
11 better formulated as referring to the people who had the neighbourhood
12 under control, and then there won't be any doubt about the situation.
13 So, Witness, you're being asked to explain -- sorry, describe the
14 police uniforms that you referred to being worn by the people you say were
15 in control of your neighbourhood. Could you do that, please.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were blue.
17 MS. NEEMA:
18 Q. What kind of blue?
19 A. Dark blue.
20 Q. Is there any other group which you know that wore that kind of
21 uniform or that kind of blue you are referring to?
22 A. No. I'm talking of the uniform we saw them wearing at the time,
23 and usually this is uniform worn by the reservists.
24 Q. What do you mean by "reservists?"
25 A. They were not regular police.
1 Q. Do you want to tell that the uniform they were -- the reservists
2 were wearing was different from what the police was wearing? What made
3 you believe these were reservists?
4 A. They worked elsewhere. They worked in other places. They didn't
5 go to school to become policemen.
6 Q. And among those you saw had control of your neighbourhood and
7 wearing these reservists uniform, were those you mentioned in your
8 statement among those?
9 A. Yes.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Mrs. Neema, I may be speaking for myself when I ask
11 you how this fits with what's actually in the statement about what they
12 were wearing. The Prosecution has surely got to present some sort of
13 consistent account from a witness before we can be expected to get down to
14 the job of analysing just how much of it we accept or reject.
15 But if we're going to get entirely inconsistent versions in
16 writing and orally, there's got to be some attempt made to bring them into
17 line or abandon the point. As it stands, these two versions are not
18 consistent with each other. I'm very cautious not to say that where
19 there's some means of reconciling them obvious in what's before us, but at
20 the moment we could not conceivably reconcile these two versions, at least
21 that's my opinion. I don't know if the other Judges agree, but I would be
22 in enormous difficulty trying to do that.
23 MS. NEEMA: Your Honour, I'm trying to bring the witness, I mean,
24 in line so that I can get out of him what I'm -- the Prosecution intends.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I don't think it's quite -- that that's quite
1 the right approach. The Prosecution has obviously to elicit from the
2 witness his evidence, but there may come a point when you have to say a
3 witness is so inconsistent that we just do not wish to rely on him.
4 You may not be at that stage yet; and if you're not you're, then
5 going to have to do something to give us a picture that we could possibly
6 rely on, which at the moment doesn't exist.
7 MS. NEEMA: I'll try one more time, Your Honour. Your Honour, can
8 I consult my colleagues for five minutes?
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Just give us a moment to consider that.
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 [Prosecution counsel confer]
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Are you wishing us to adjourn to enable you to do
13 this, or are you wishing just simply to do it in the courtroom?
14 MS. NEEMA: Your Honour, I would like a short adjournment if
15 that's possible.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I don't think a short adjournment is possible
17 now, we're going to have to have a lunch break. If I could have the
18 indulgence of the interpreters, we could resume at half past 1.00. It may
19 not be possible. I need to find out if they can accommodate that or not.
20 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm told that they can. So what we'll do now is
22 adjourn until half past 1.00.
23 Witness, there is going to be an interruption now in your
24 evidence. We will also use the interruption to have our lunch break, so
25 we will be breaking for an hour. Meanwhile, it is very important that you
1 have no discussion with anybody at all about your evidence. You can
2 discuss with other people anything else you want, but not the evidence you
3 are giving or will give in this courtroom. Do you understand that?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you very much.
6 We'll resume at 1.30.
7 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.30 p.m.
8 --- On resuming at 1.29 p.m.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Shall we resume the evidence now?
10 MS. NEEMA: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.
12 Witness K74, we will now continue with your evidence, and Mrs.
13 Neema will continue her examination.
14 Mrs. Neema.
15 MS. NEEMA:
16 Q. Witness, I would like to take you a little bit back in your
17 testimony. On the night of 1st of April, 1999, what was your
18 neighbourhood like?
19 A. On the 1st of April, until 12.25, we didn't have electricity,
20 darkness prevailed all over; and at 12.25, we started hearing shots and
21 then the burning and the killings and these things started.
22 Q. And when that started, where were you?
23 A. I was at the basement of a neighbour; Gezim Nagafci is his name.
24 Q. While in that basement, could you hear anything; and if yes, what?
25 A. Yes, because our houses are along the road; all the houses that
1 were burned. We heard noises. We heard also Albanian being spoken, but
2 at that time we were there behind because fire was spreading all over.
3 Q. Was there -- during that night, was there any time you came out of
4 the basement?
5 A. You are asking me if I went out of the basement?
6 Q. Yes, that night.
7 A. In the basement, there were the children and the women; whereas,
8 us, the adults, we were standing. They were lying down. We were standing
9 around the yard.
10 Q. While standing around the yard, were you able to see people moving
11 up and down the street, or was it quiet?
12 A. No. You couldn't see anyone because there are houses that prevent
13 the view, and it was total darkness, as I said.
14 Q. In your statement you talked about people you believe committed
15 the crime. When did you hear or feel their presence on the streets?
16 A. When they started setting fire at 12.25, we were sheltered, about
17 200, 300 people there; then we heard Albanian being spoken. They called
18 out every house owner in Albanian in a loud voice.
19 Q. Was there any time when you came out of the basement and see
20 these people who were burning the houses which you allege were burned?
21 A. No. I didn't see the houses burning, but the entire neighbourhood
22 saw those people roaming the streets of the neighbourhood some days ago.
23 Q. And after that event of houses being burned, whether it was on the
24 1st of April -- particularly, the 1st of April to the 2nd of April, was
25 there any time you saw these people or anybody you believe committed this
2 A. No, no. I'm saying I didn't see them. We were behind the place
3 where the fire was set. And we ran to save ourselves and the children,
4 and we gathered at a garden behind the house. We stayed there in the
5 basement until around 6.00 in the morning.
6 Q. Let me take you a little bit back again. When you are talking
7 about these people you allege burned your houses or houses on Millosh
8 Giliq, and you say when they came to the street they started calling and
9 speaking in Albanian, were you able to hear what were they saying?
10 A. We heard in Albanian, because we were there for 45 years, living
11 together, and we knew each other very well. And they called on every one
12 by name and asked them to open the door, and they wanted to commit
13 provocations. But we fled and, as I said, we were gathered about 200, 300
14 people in that place, in garden.
15 Q. This morning, I asked you about the names you mentioned in your
16 statement. Apart from you mentioning the names, you said everybody else
17 in the neighbourhood knew that these people were the ones who committed
18 those crimes. How did you or your neighbours came to that conclusion?
19 A. I said so because after we went to Albania, even before we went to
20 Albania, each of us was saying, "God, what our neighbours, our Serbian
21 neighbours did to us. They killed us. They destroyed us."
22 Q. How did you know that they killed you or destroyed you? What made
23 you believe that?
24 A. We came to this conclusion because before the occurrence of the
25 1st and 2nd April happened, they were committing acts of thefts in towns
1 and villages, bringing home television sets and other appliances in that
2 place of Lubisha Raicevic.
3 And the entire neighbourhood saw this happening because they
4 couldn't sleep all night out of here and kept watch, seeing what was going
5 on in the neighbourhood.
6 Q. Apart from those you mentioned -- people you mentioned in your
7 statement, were there any other people who were knew to that neighbourhood
8 or whom, before the 1st of April, you saw in that neighbourhood?
9 A. We saw them all the time, these people.
10 Q. And what were they doing?
11 A. Nothing. They came back from work, carrying automatic rifles,
12 coming in, going out of the house.
13 MS. NEEMA: Your Honour, I have no further questions.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. O'Sullivan.
16 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, first will be counsel for General
17 Lukic, and thereafter we'll follow the indictment.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic.
19 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic:
21 Q. Good day, sir. My name is Dan Ivetic, and I am one of the
22 attorneys for Mr. Sreten Lukic. And I would beg your indulgence to pay
23 close attention to the questions that I have for you, so you can provide
24 me with the answers that are most accurate. And we can move through this
25 as efficiently as possible, but now I have to focus on some things in your
1 statement and in your testimony today to try and clear up some things.
2 Now, first of all, am I correct that you did not personally
3 eye-witness any of the acts of arson or killing that you identify in your
4 statement; that is to say, you did not personally see the perpetrators of
5 these events?
6 A. No.
7 Q. So I take it then the pages in your statement - it's in the
8 English the bottom of page 3, the bottom of page 4, the middle of page 5.
9 Sir, the transcript shows that your answer is "no" to my question. Is it
10 no, that you did not see the perpetrators or no, I am not correct? Let's
11 clear that up first.
12 A. No. I didn't see the perpetrators of the crimes.
13 Q. Okay. Now, on page 3, let's go through these each one at a time.
14 On page 3 of your statement it says, at the bottom the last paragraph in
15 the English.
16 "I had been staying in the basement of the neighbour of mine. For
17 short periods, I would go to my property and look to see what was
18 happening. The people doing this burning and killing were Serbs from the
20 So am I to take it then, sir, that this part of your sworn
21 statement is actually incorrect? Sir, can we have a response?
22 A. Is it possible for you to repeat the question, please?
23 Q. Sure. I'm trying to see if there's other corrections that need to
24 be made to your sworn statement that is being introduced into evidence.
25 At page 3, the bottom of page 3, the statement says:
1 "I had been staying in the basement of the neighbour of mine. For
2 short periods, I would go to my property and look to see what was
3 happening. The people doing this burning and killing were Serbs from the
5 And I'm asking you, sir, are we to understand that this part of
6 your statement needs to be corrected, that you did not actually see the
7 people doing the burning and killing were Serbs from the neighbourhood?
8 A. According to the information from the neighbourhood -- of the
9 people from the neighbourhood, everybody was saying that these Serbs
10 killed us, burned us.
11 Q. Okay. Now, let me ask you then for the basis of another one of
12 your statements at page 4, the paragraph before you start listing the
13 names of some 16 individuals. In there, your sworn statement that you
14 signed says:
15 "Since the very first night of NATO bombing, they were patrolling
16 the streets, holding hand-held lamps, and sending signals to each other.
17 Some of the men who did the burning had painted faces, blackened. They
18 were wearing bullet-proof vests and camouflage green uniforms. The men
19 that I saw do this burning and killing include the following men that I
20 know and recognise. I saw them drinking at the pool hall owned by Luli,
21 near Luli's compound. They were in uniform at that time."
22 Sir, is it your testimony here today that you did not in fact see
23 these 18 individuals that you have named wearing camouflage green uniforms
24 and participating in the burning and killing of that night? Is this part
25 of your statement incorrect as well? Or is any part of it correct? I
1 mean -- if there is part of it that you do know and you did see, please
2 let me know. I'm just trying to figure out what I have to work with here
3 in terms of material.
4 A. I saw them holding flash-lights for several nights before. I saw
5 them giving signals to each other and surveying the neighbourhood. That
6 night, too, we -- often they made signs with these flash-lights. They set
7 fire to the buildings of the neighbourhood.
8 Q. Did you actually see them set these fires, these 18 individuals
9 that are now named at page 4 and 5 of your statement?
10 A. I told you no.
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. I told you we saw them and I saw them some days ago, some nights
13 ago making signals to each other with these flash-lights.
14 Q. Can I --
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Did -- just one moment.
16 MR. IVETIC: Sure.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Did you, on the night of the 1st and 2nd of April,
18 see these individuals with flash-lights making signs?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That night, no. But we could see
20 the lights of the flash-lights at the doors of our yards, and it was about
21 10.00, 10.30; and at 12.25, they set fire to the houses.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Did the light that they cast and the way that the
23 lights were used look any different on the night of the 1st and 2nd of
24 April from the earlier nights?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the previous nights they used
1 hand-held flash-lights. The Serbs -- the Serbian houses were across each
2 other, 40, 50 metres from one another, and they made signals to each
3 other; whereas, the night I'm talking about the light cast was huge light,
4 directed at our houses, and it was 10.30 in the evening. And at 12.25,
5 they started.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
7 Mr. Ivetic.
8 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Q. Sir, I'd like to focus on the two remaining points there in this
10 section that we had just read. First of all, in this section you refer to
11 these men as wearing bullet-proof vests and camouflage green uniforms.
12 Later in your statement at page 6, you identify another person, Milos
13 Scepanovic, and you say he was also in the same green camouflage uniform
14 worn by the Serbs described above. Is that correct? Did these
15 individuals when you saw them on the night in question, around 10.30 in
16 the evening or before, wear camouflage green uniforms?
17 A. I said that they had green police --
18 THE INTERPRETER: Correction.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- blue police uniform every time we
20 saw them. Even before they set fire to the houses, we saw them wearing
21 this kind of uniform. Milos Scepanovic was active in the police ranks.
22 The others were reservists from the neighbourhood.
23 MR. IVETIC:
24 Q. Now, sir, the question I have for you then is: Why is it that
25 your entire statement, which you earlier today verified you had read, gone
1 over, and were confirming to be true and accurate, only states that the
2 persons who did all this were wearing green camouflage uniforms. Why has
3 your testimony here changed today?
4 A. I don't think this is in my statement.
5 Q. Well, sir, I'm reading from the statement, Exhibit P2517. I don't
6 know if you have that there in front of you, but the paragraph starts:
7 "Since the very first night of NATO bombing," it's on page 4
8 exactly in the middle of the page, "they were wearing bullet-proof vests
9 and camouflage green uniforms."
10 The statement in question was taken on the 23rd of April, 1999,
11 less than a month after the event in question. Was your recollection of
12 the event better a few weeks after the event or today?
13 A. This I don't remember.
14 Q. Okay. Do you think that your recollection of the events was
15 better in April of 1999 than it is today?
16 A. Of course, in 1999 my recollection was better, but we were also
17 under trauma. We were traumatised at that moment.
18 Q. Okay. Now, if I can ask you about the next part of that same
19 paragraph, since hopefully you're on that same page still.
20 It says there: "I saw them drinking at the pool hall owned by
21 Luli, near Luli's compound."
22 Is this referring to the night in question? Did you see these 18
23 or so individuals drinking at the pool hall owned by Luli?
24 A. I didn't say about that night, and I didn't say that every night
25 they drank and they went to this pool.
1 Q. Now, sir, when did you see them drinking, if not that night?
2 A. They went there regularly. I told you they kept the neighbourhood
3 under their thumb. They went to shops, they drank. They did everything
4 they wanted in the neighbourhood.
5 Q. All right, sir. I'd like to ask you about the page prior to this
6 on page 3 of your statement that you gave to the Office of the Prosecutor
7 in 1999. And, again, at about the middle of the page in the English, it
8 should be around there in the Albanian as well, the paragraphs are not
9 numbered, it says:
10 "About one or two hours prior to the burning of the houses, they
11 lit the area with spotlights. A number of Serbs from the neighbourhood
12 were standing in front of Lulezim Vejsa's pool hall, which is adjacent to
13 his compound. The Serbs were standing in uniform drinking. They also had
14 men in a high building at the end of the street maintaining a lookout on
15 the street. Children could hear what these men were saying as they were
17 Now, how does this -- how do you reconcile this testimony from
18 your sworn written statement that seems to contradict what you just told
19 me a moment ago? Do you have an answer for me, sir?
20 A. Can you please repeat your question and tell me where to find it.
21 Q. It is page 3 of the English. I'm trying to find the exact
22 reference in Albanian, as we speak. It is right after the paragraph where
23 you talk about the 50 to 60 people staying at the house of Njazi
24 Parashuti, that you told them to leave.
25 It is the next paragraph that starts: "About one or two hours
1 prior to the burning of the houses, they lit the area with spotlights. A
2 number of Serbs from the neighbourhood were standing in front of sitting
3 Lulezim Vejsa's pool hall, which is adjacent to his compound. The Serbs
4 were standing in uniform drinking. They also had men in a high building
5 at the end of the street maintaining a lookout on the street. Children
6 could hear what these men were saying as they were drinking."
7 This part of your statement indicates that you saw these Serbs
8 from your neighbourhood drinking in front of Lulezim Vejsa's pool high
9 school, specifically on the night in question one or two hours prior to
10 the burning of the houses, which is something you just told me is not
11 correct. So please help me understand which is the true account of what
12 you know. What can I rely upon to be the truth?
13 A. I told you some days ago; I didn't say that night. I told you
14 some days before, I saw them regularly walking around the neighbourhoods,
15 going where they wanted, drinking. They could do what they wanted; we
16 couldn't because we were shut in our houses. And I'm not talking about
17 the night of the event when the burning and the killing started.
18 Q. Then, sir, how do you explain the fact that this statement, which
19 you took great pains to correct for the Prosecution, listing some ten to
20 12 corrections, explicitly states that this event that you saw of the
21 drinking was one or two hours prior to the burning of the houses?
22 Especially, if you read the next paragraph which says: "They were
23 using a minivan/wagon-type vehicle to ram the gates of the properties and
24 to break into the courtyards. The people involved in these attacks were
25 Serbs we had grown up with in this neighbourhood."
1 You specifically corrected this for the Prosecution to say
2 "neighbourhood" instead of "town." So you read this with the Prosecutor
3 and corrected it, and it still says that you saw people on the night in
4 question and that these people were the local Serbs who were drinking in
5 front of Lulezim Vejsa's pool hall. Please explain for me how this can
6 be, if you are now telling me that you never saw it?
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Where does it say he saw it?
8 MR. IVETIC: In the statement page 3, it's the two middle
9 paragraphs in the statement, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Where does it say he saw that, and he's not giving
11 a hearsay account?
12 MR. IVETIC: I guess that is a possible explanation if this entire
13 statement is hearsay, then obviously we'll have another matter to discuss.
14 But this is a section that he corrected for the Prosecution, so I would
15 have expected if he didn't see it he would have changed it like the other
16 things that he didn't see that were taken out.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: It seems to me, Mr. Ivetic, you're not making
18 allowances for the witness's understanding of the process that we're
19 engaged in and his capacity to take in the sort of question that you seem
20 intent upon addressing to him. I think far simpler questions might
21 clarify the position for you.
22 MR. IVETIC: I will try to simplify them.
23 Q. Sir, this part of your statement that says: "A number of Serbs
24 from the neighbourhood were standing in front of Lulezim Vejsa's pool
25 hall." Why did you put that in your statement? How do you know that?
1 JUDGE BONOMY: That's not going to -- don't answer that, please.
2 That's not going to help us because he's already told us -- just a
3 minute, please. He's already told us that on previous nights he's seen
4 people in uniform outside the pool hall. He said they were in control of
5 the neighbourhood and so on. Your concern is about something else, as I
6 understand it, which is what happened on the night of the burning.
7 MR. IVETIC: Which is in his statement.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Indeed. But your question doesn't make that clear.
9 Your question could be easily answered on the basis that it was on
10 previous nights. It's the earlier bit that you're really concerned about,
11 in fact, the first four or five words of the [indiscernible] part, which I
12 think needs to be built into your question.
13 MR. IVETIC: I will do that, Your Honour.
14 Q. Sir, your statement says: "About one or two hours prior to the
15 burning of the houses, they lit the area with spotlights. A number of
16 Serbs from the neighbourhood were standing in front of Lulezim Vejsa's
17 pool hall, which is adjacent to his compound." What is the basis of your
18 including this in your sworn statement to the Office of the Prosecutor?
19 A. These are the same people who the neighbours and the neighbourhood
20 saw walking around the streets regularly controlling it; that is not only
21 me who says this, the entire people of the neighbourhood say this.
22 Q. But what is your basis for saying it in your sworn statement?
23 A. Could you please repeat the question.
24 Q. What is your basis for making these statements? I'm not yet
25 concerned about what other people's basis are; I'm concerned about why you
1 put this in your statement. Based upon what, did you have this knowledge?
2 A. I'm saying this on the basis of the fact that several days before
3 when there were electricity cuts, these people were regularly seen with
4 torch-lights, these that I've already mentioned.
5 Q. Now, if we turn to page 5, after the list of 18 individuals that
6 you identify as being somehow involved in these events, your statement
8 "I heard the locks of the gates of Lulezim Vejsa's house being
9 shot by these men. I saw and heard this procedure many times. It almost
10 became routine, as they conducted this action in our neighbourhood on the
11 properties described above. I heard the minivan hitting the gates of
12 Luli's compound. I heard the noise of the gates being rammed; and then
13 later after they entered, I saw Luli's house bursting in flames."
14 Is any of this based upon what you really saw with your own eyes?
15 A. In the first sentence, you can read "I heard," not "I saw." We
16 were in one house because our houses had been burnt. We were sheltering
17 in that house. We were sheltering our children, while we, the adults,
18 were following what was going on. We couldn't see what was going on, but
19 we could hear shootings. We could hear them breaking down the doors. I
20 don't know if they used cars to break these doors, but we could hear the
21 noise of the vehicles.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Witness K74, your statement says,"I saw Luli's
23 house bursting in flames." Did you actually see that?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We saw every house that was burned.
25 We were sheltering behind our houses, and we could see each and every
1 house as it was set in flames. We were only 150 metres or 200 metres far.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic.
3 MR. IVETIC:
4 Q. Well, first of all, sir, please let -- please give us information.
5 Were you in the yard of the house where you were sheltering at, or were
6 you in the basement? Because you've said both things today, and I'd like
7 to find out which is accurate.
8 A. In the basement. We were there sheltering up to the moment when
9 the houses started to burn. From that moment, we left with our families,
10 the entire neighbourhood, and sheltered behind our houses. And there we
11 stayed until 6.00 in the morning.
12 Q. Am I correct that there was no electricity that night, that it was
13 dark around midnight, between April the 1st and April the 2nd, 1999?
14 A. On a regular basis, the electricity cuts were made at 7.00 in the
16 Q. Was that true for this night as well?
17 A. As I said, we didn't have electricity after 7.00 p.m. for months.
18 They would cut the power at 7.00, and we would no longer have electricity.
19 Q. Okay. This list of 18 people, did you prepare this list, or did
20 other people help you to prepare this list of 18 persons who you say are
21 responsible for the crimes that you didn't see but heard?
22 A. Everyone in my neighbourhood saw something and knows something
23 that happened to another person, and the entire neighbourhood compiled
24 this list.
25 Q. So this written statement that you have provided is actually not
1 your testimony, is it?
2 A. This is our statement from every person from my neighbourhood,
3 because we all suffered in that neighbourhood.
4 Q. Thank you for your responses.
5 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I have no further questions for this
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. O'Sullivan.
8 MR. O'SULLIVAN: No questions.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Petrovic.
10 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] No questions.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Visnjic.
12 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] No questions, Your Honour.
13 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] No questions.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bakrac.
15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No questions.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Mrs. Neema, do you have any re-examination?
17 MS. NEEMA: [Microphone not activated]
18 Re-examination by Ms. Neema:
19 Q. Witness, when you were asked about the houses being burned in the
20 area, you stated that you and your family and other people went and hide
21 behind the building. From where you were hiding, could you still see the
22 flames going up of those houses which were being burnt?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You were also asked whether you were hiding in the basement all
25 the time, because in your statement you indicated that there were a time
1 you were also going out and specifically to your property and seeing what
2 has happened to your property. Is that the correct version that there
3 were times you were in the basement, and there were times you were going
4 to see -- to your property?
5 A. My house was quite close. I could see it even from the basement.
6 It was only two metres away.
7 Q. Last question: While you were in the basement, and you were
8 saying your house was very close to where other incidents were taking
9 place, were you in a position to hear any sounds or any voices of people
10 talking or exchanging words?
11 A. Could you please repeat the question.
12 Q. While you were in the hiding in the basement, was it possible for
13 you to hear what was going on on the outside or hear voices or people
15 A. It was very calm, and I could hear everything.
16 MS. NEEMA: Your Honour, I have no further questions.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE BONOMY: K74, that completes your evidence. Thank you very
19 much for coming to give evidence to the Tribunal. You are now free to
20 page 79 leave, and we will disconnect the videolink.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
22 [The witness withdrew]
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis, does that complete your evidence for
24 today, or are we ready to start the next witness?
25 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, we are ready to start the next witness.
1 Ms. Dragulev will lead that witness, if you would like to begin. I don't
2 know if in light of the unanticipated break we had earlier when and where
3 you were going to have another break.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I think we probably can't have one. We're
5 limited to finishing at 3.00 because of the way the things have gone.
6 Perhaps I could have an indication from the interpreters of the position,
7 but I assume starting at half past 1.00 that we would finish at 3.00. Is
8 that the interpreters' understanding also?
9 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.
11 We can, however, try to make some progress on what's to happen for
12 the rest of the week. When we had the break, it was difficult to make
13 plans not knowing how this last witness would progress. It now appears
14 that Dusan Loncar would be available tomorrow, but I think the real
15 difficulty is that it's not possible to set up a link for tomorrow.
16 To try to accommodate the situation, the suggestion has been
17 made - and I simply repeat the suggestion, which for once wasn't my idea -
18 that we start at 7.30 on Friday because we have certain limitations. But
19 I suspect that that could be difficult, even the attendance of the accused
20 on time might be a problem. It's difficult for many people, I suspect, to
21 make it for then.
22 MR. HANNIS: I don't know what the witness's availability is at
23 that time either.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that must be a possibility because there is
25 an hour's time difference, isn't there? Oh, no, it is the same time.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Is the time the same, Mr. O'Sullivan? Yes.
3 And the indications are that the examination of that witness could
4 take more than a day, in any event.
5 MR. HANNIS: Well, Your Honour, I've seen those indications, but I
6 would raise a point that I think you addressed president witness Zyrapi to
7 some extent. If that cross-examination goes into the point of presenting
8 the Defence case as going merely beyond cross-examination, then I would
9 say let's limit it to cross-examination of what's produced on direct. And
10 if they want to call him as a witness in their case, there will certainly
11 be an opportunity to do that later on.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, from what I've read, a large amount of it is
13 the Defence case anyway.
14 MR. HANNIS: Well, Your Honour, I'd like to think it's both, but
15 I --
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, but what I'm saying is a part of it is clearly
17 helpful to the Defence case. If the Defence sought to build on that, I
18 would have thought that there was quite a strong argument for hearing that
19 evidence at this point in time, bearing in mind the witness's health and
20 bearing in mind that it is open to us to assign the time to the
21 presentation of the positive Defence case. So...
22 MR. HANNIS: I understand that point, Your Honour, but I also
23 understand the Defence had quite a concern about his health, which is
24 legitimate. I know he told me he is scheduled to go to the spa, or
25 whatever it is, for his rehabilitation next week. Perhaps it would be
1 better if we didn't spend eight hours with him and only spent four or
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. Well, perhaps we should all go to the spa and
4 take the evidence there.
5 Yes. In any event, that's a matter we, no doubt, can address
6 shortly after we conclude today, because it may be that -- well, let me
7 just ascertain one thing.
8 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, the efforts will be made to see -- again to
10 see if tomorrow or any part of tomorrow is a possibility. Then we'll
11 address the question if the evidence is confined to Friday, how long that
12 evidence is to be. And we shall now take the next witness.
13 Ms. Dragulev. Who is the next witness so that we can get matters
15 MS. DRAGULEV: Your Honour, the next witness is Hysni Kryeziu and
16 his evidence relates to paragraphs 72(b) and 77.
17 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer].
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, the efforts will be made to see -- again, to
19 see if tomorrow or any part of tomorrow is a possibility; then we'll
20 address the question if the evidence is confined to Friday, how long that
21 evidence is to be. And we shall now take the next witness.
22 Ms. Dragulev. Who is the next witness so that we can get matters
24 MS. DRAGULEV: Your Honour, the next witness is Hysni Kryeziu and
25 his evidence relates to paragraphs 72(b) and 77.
1 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
2 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, just for the information of the Court
3 page 82 we have one of our interns sitting in with us and that's Caroline
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Hannis.
6 [The witness entered court]
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Good afternoon, Mr. Kryeziu. Would you please make
8 the solemn declaration to speak the truth by reading aloud the card which
9 will now be placed before you.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I read it in Albanian, may I?
11 I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,
12 and nothing but the truth.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, sir. Please be seated.
14 Ms. Dragulev.
15 MS. DRAGULEV: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 WITNESS: HYSNI KRYEZIU
17 [Witness answered through interpreter]
18 Examination by Ms. Dragulev:
19 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Kryeziu. Could you please state your first
20 and last name for the record.
21 A. My name is Hysni Kryeziu.
22 Q. Did you provide a statement to the Office of the Prosecutor dated
23 the 14th of May, 1999?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And did you make a correction to that statement on the 19th of
1 September, 2004?
2 A. Yes, I did. May I speak in Albanian?
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Certainly. You may have the wrong channel, I
4 think, on the earphones.
5 MS. DRAGULEV:
6 Q. And have you had an opportunity to review these statements during
7 our proofing session?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Is the translation in Albanian now, Mr. Kryeziu?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And during our proofing session, after you had reviewed these
12 statements, did you make some minor corrections or discover some
13 translation errors?
14 A. Yes.
15 MS. DRAGULEV: May I please ask the usher to provide the witness
16 with an Albanian copy of his statement that has numbered paragraphs.
17 Your Honours, we also made copies of the English statements that
18 contain numbered paragraphs and the statements in B/C/S with numbered
19 paragraphs so it's easier to follow.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
21 Please continue with your questions.
22 MS. DRAGULEV: Yes. Thank you.
23 Q. The first correction you made, Mr. Kryeziu, was to paragraph 1 of
24 your statement, the place -- your place of birth. Where were you born,
25 Mr. Kryeziu?
1 A. I was born in the village of Reti, Rahovec municipality on the
2 12th of April, 1949.
3 Q. Thank you. You also clarified that Dusanovo is a neighbourhood of
4 the city of Prizren. Is that correct?
5 A. Yes. It is like a neighbourhood of Prizren town.
6 Q. Thank you. You then made a correction to paragraph 2 of the
7 statement where it says that your younger son Agron Kryeziu was
8 exercising -- training with the KLA just for a few days later, for a few
9 days last year. You explained to us that he actually went to a KLA
10 training camp in order to register with the KLA, but that he was rejected
11 by the KLA. So he was never actually a member of the KLA and never wore a
12 KLA uniform. Is that correct?
13 A. Yes. He never wore a uniform.
14 Q. Thank you. The next correction was to paragraph 7, where you talk
15 about Haki Cuni. In this paragraph, you mention that you learned that he
16 had been killed; but in fact later on, you learned that he was not killed,
17 that he was tortured and maltreated, but that he was still alive. Is that
19 A. That's correct.
20 Q. In paragraph 9 in the middle of the paragraph, you mention that
21 Scekic wore a black nylon stocking in his head, and you corrected the
22 colour of the nylon stocking to light brown, sort of skin colour. Is that
24 A. Excuse me, did you say paragraph number 9?
25 Q. Yes, paragraph 9, in the middle of the paragraph.
1 A. It was possibly a mistranslation. The stocking he had on his head
2 was not black but was brown. Others had black stockings on their heads.
3 Q. Thank you. In the same paragraph you refer to your brother, and
4 you explained to us that he was physically disabled.
5 A. Yes. He was handicapped. He had lost one of his legs. When the
6 Serb forces entered with tanks, APCs, and soldiers, there were people
7 killed. We were beaten up and tortured; and about 500 metres far from my
8 house near the house of Milan Scekic, who was chief of police, I don't
9 know to which sector, he was in a Golf 2 make vehicle with his family. We
10 had two women who were refugees from Bellacerka village staying with us.
11 Scekic stopped us. He was in the company of others, as well.
12 I asked him, "Commander, I ask you to leave one of the vehicles to
13 me. You see that this person is handicapped." And he answered, "Don't
14 talk too much. You will be executed in a second." At that moment, some
15 soldiers came. They were wearing Chetnik caps, as we called them. They
16 took out a knife, a big knife, and threatened us. They told me to leave
17 the car.
18 Q. Thank you, Mr. Kryeziu. I will just ask you to stop here for a
19 moment. We just have one more correction to go through in the statement,
20 and then we'll get back to your statement in a short while. Thank you.
21 I believe the last correction you made was actually only a
22 correction in the Albanian statement. In paragraph 12 of the statement,
23 you refer to your neighbour Nebi Bucaj, his two sons. And it should state
24 his brother-in-law had been executed by the Serb police. Is that correct?
25 A. Yes. But on the way I heard from a woman - she was not neighbour
1 of Nebi. I was Nebi's neighbour. Our houses are adjacent to one
2 another - I could see from my house when he was stopped. I could hear
3 the shootings coming from all sides. I heard that Nebi Bucaj, with his
4 two sons and someone who was visiting in his house were killed, but not
5 the brother. I don't remember saying that the brother was killed.
6 Q. But it was -- do you remember saying that it was the
7 brother-in-law, that his two sons and the brother-in-law? Is that a
8 correction you made?
9 A. No. I said a visitor. I don't know who he was. I know that he
10 was from Randobrava village. This is what I heard later, actually,
11 because I never knew that person.
12 Q. Thank you. Thank you, very much, sir. It was a visitor, not his
13 brother-in-law. Now, taking those corrections into account, are your
14 statements true and accurate to the best of your knowledge and
16 A. The statement is true.
17 Q. And can you confirm to this Court that that evidence is what you
18 would give under oath today if you were asked the same questions?
19 A. I will testify to everything that I've seen with my own eyes and
20 everything is true.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 MS. DRAGULEV: Your Honours, we would like to tender Exhibit 2514,
23 the first one dated 14th May 1999, and the one dated 19 September 2004.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: 19 September 2004.
25 MS. DRAGULEV: It is a correction to the Albanian statement.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Which we now know is an inaccurate correction. Is
2 that the one? Or is the yet another -- I only have the 1999 statement.
3 MS. DRAGULEV: Your Honour, I can provide you another --
4 JUDGE BONOMY: I think that is all the witness has spoken to, has
5 he not?
6 MS. DRAGULEV: No, Your Honour. I asked him if he gave another
7 statement. I have a copy here, if you would like to see that. It's one
8 correction to the number of houses in Dusanovo.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, sorry. I was aware of that. Thank you.
10 MS. DRAGULEV: Thank you.
11 Q. Mr. Kryeziu, you refer to policemen and to soldiers in your
12 statement. Can you please explain to the Court how you were able to
13 distinguish between the two.
14 A. Yes. The policemen had blue uniforms, dark blue; solid colour and
15 camouflage pattern. The soldiers, on the other hand, had also
16 plain-colour uniform, the SMB uniform as we call it, and some others had
17 camouflage uniforms.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 MS. DRAGULEV: Could I please have Exhibit P1325 up on the screen.
20 Q. Mr. Kryeziu, in your statement you mention that on the 20th of
21 March, 1999, great numbers of police and Serb military surrounded the
22 village with tanks and armoured vehicles. Please take a look at the
23 photographs on the screen, that are displayed on the screen, and please
24 tell us whether you recognise any of the vehicles that you refer to in
25 your statement.
1 Please note that there is more than one page, so please wait with
2 your answer until you've seen all of the photographs.
3 A. The police APCs were these on photograph 2. They had smaller
4 tanks, while the soldiers' tanks were bigger.
5 Q. Mr. Kryeziu, may I please ask you to look at the photographs
6 first, before you give your answer.
7 MS. DRAGULEV: Can I have the next page, please. Thank you.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Number 6, these are the tanks that
9 they had.
10 MS. DRAGULEV: And I think, yes, can we have photograph number
11 3 -- page 3.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were vehicles as those in
13 number 10.
14 MS. DRAGULEV: Yes, the last page.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And number 14, and many others. And
16 I cannot describe every type of vehicles because many years have passed,
17 and there have been really many types of vehicles and APCs.
18 MS. DRAGULEV:
19 Q. Thank you, Mr. Kryeziu. I have no further questions for you at
20 this point.
21 MS. DRAGULEV: Thank you, Your Honours no further questions at
22 this point.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
24 Mr. O'Sullivan.
25 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour it will be General Lukic, General
1 Lazarevic, General Pavkovic, General Ojdanic, Mr. Sainovic, and Mr.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic. Page 89.
4 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:
6 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Kryeziu. My name is Lukic,
7 and I appear here for General Lukic. I would like briefly to come back to
8 your statement. On page 85, line 11, in your testimony you described the
9 caps worn by the people you saw, and you call them Chetnik-style caps.
10 Could you tell us, what did they look like?
11 A. They are black caps. We call them "Shajkaca." They have the
12 Chetnik sign on them, and I remembered Draza Mihajlovic as soon as I saw
13 these types of head-gear. They all were masked.
14 Q. And you say they also had Chetnik emblems on those caps. Did you
15 mean cockades?
16 A. [No interpretation]
17 Q. So they did not wear regular caps with regular emblems on their
18 heads, the kind worn by ordinary policemen -- [In English] and military
19 personnel, not only policemen?
20 A. No. There were no regular caps, but these were the Chetnik caps
21 with cockades. These were the caps, and they were wearing those on top of
22 the nylon stockings, some of them.
23 Q. [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 A. And I also saw some who had the sign Beli Orlovi, White Eagles,
1 Q. You saw the emblems of White Eagles around on the uniforms or on
2 the caps?
3 A. On the uniforms of the army, on the left upper arm.
4 Q. And you also saw the writing "White Eagles"?
5 A. Yes, because when he approached me with his big knife, which had
6 blood on it, and when he threatened to slaughter me. However, my late
7 wife, who died on the 15th of June, she tried to get something from my
8 car. We had 3.800 Deutschemarks and some jewelleries from my wife and my
9 daughter-in-law. Someone hit her on the head. We had some water. We
10 threw some water until she regained consciousness, and then we proceeded
11 towards the border.
12 Q. Thank you, Mr. Kryeziu, but I'm afraid we'll have to continue at a
13 faster pace, and you'll have to give me shorter answers because we are
14 under time restrictions. I'd now like to ask you in relation to other
15 testimony we've heard before this Tribunal, if you had seen people in
16 black uniforms in your village?
17 A. Yes, there were, but I can't say about that day. But until that
18 day, yes.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now see on e-court Defence
21 exhibit 6D126.
22 Q. While we're waiting for it, I'd like to ask you something related
23 to paragraph 2 of your statement and regarding your younger son Agron
24 Kryeziu. That's the part of your statement that you corrected, or at
25 least we received corrections. Here we have a statement by Ardijan
1 Kumnova, who was a member of the KLA in Glodjane which had an admission
2 centre of the KLA.
3 And on page 3 of the B/C/S version and page 3 in English, of the
4 draft translation in English, he mentions the men who were members of his
5 group. And you will see on the screen in line 5 from the top, the name of
6 Agron Kryeziu. The statement was given in 1998.
7 A. May I answer that?
8 Q. Right. Can you tell us, please, is this true, that your son was a
9 member of the KLA?
10 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness please be asked not to speak at
11 the same time as counsel.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This person should know that my son
13 does not know where Gllogjan is.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. So this person on the list is not your son, in your opinion?
16 A. No, no.
17 THE INTERPRETER: And please, could the witness be asked to wait
18 for the translation of the answer before answering.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Kryeziu, the interpreters are asking me to ask
20 you to pause until Mr. Lukic completes his question, and then leave a
21 little time before you answer so that they can interpret the answer for
22 the other languages listening.
23 Mr. Lukic.
24 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 [Interpretation] Can the witness now be shown 6D127, and --
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Is this another exhibit?
2 MR. LUKIC: This is one document. It's actually a diary or a war
3 diary for Nazmi Brahimaj.
4 [Interpretation] Can we please have on e-court page 7 of 6D127.
5 Q. Mr. Kryeziu --
6 MR. LUKIC: I'm afraid we don't have the right page, the next one,
7 if it could scroll down, please. That's it.
8 Q. [Interpretation] Unlike the statement we saw previously, which
9 covered year 1998 --
10 MR. LUKIC: On this page. Sorry, can we scroll up a bit on this
11 page. Thanks. That's fine.
12 Q. [Interpretation] We see that the date is 22nd February 1999. And
13 if you can see from the top, line 20 from the top, is the beginning of the
14 sentence that reads:
15 "There are certain problems with the administrative service
16 because the soldiers were not issued with IDs," and the next sentence
17 goes, "I suggest that Agron Kryeziu be assigned to positions in Lumbarda
18 and that Brigade 131 should cover Dusanovo."
19 A. It's not true.
20 Q. So it is your testimony that even this is not correct?
21 A. No, no.
22 Q. Very well. Thank you.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, Mr. Lukic, I think we'll need to interrupt
24 you if that's a convenient time to do so.
25 MR. LUKIC: Any time is good for break, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: But that will be until tomorrow.
2 MR. LUKIC: I know.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Kryeziu, we have to break now for the day and
4 resume your evidence tomorrow; that will be at 9.00 in this courtroom. So
5 you need to be back, ready to continue at that time. Meanwhile, it's very
6 important that you have no discussion with anyone at all about your
7 evidence, either the evidence you've given so far or the evidence you may
8 get give in the case.
9 Talk to whoever you like about whatever you like, but keep off the
10 subject of the evidence. So could you please now leave the courtroom with
11 the usher, and we shall see you tomorrow at 9.00.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 [The witness stands down]
14 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, the extent of tomorrow's business remains
16 unclear at the moment. Once it is clear, you'll be notified. That may
17 lead to some further discussions about Friday's arrangements behind the
18 scenes, rather than waiting to discuss them in court tomorrow, but I can't
19 tell you exactly how these arrangements will work out. So for the moment
20 all I can do is adjourn until tomorrow at 9.00.
21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.03 p.m.,
22 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 30th day of
23 November, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.