1 Thursday, 23 August 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.
5 [The witness entered court]
6 WITNESS: MILAN JOVANOVIC [Resumed]
7 [Witness answered through interpreter]
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Good morning, Mr. Jovanovic.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Cross-examination by Mr. Stamp will now continue.
11 Please bear in mind that the solemn declaration you made at the beginning
12 of your evidence to tell the truth continues to apply to that evidence
14 Mr. Stamp.
15 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Your Honour. Could we show or have on the
16 e-court P2 -- sorry, P425.
17 Cross-examination by Mr. Stamp: [Continued]
18 Q. This, Mr. Jovanovic, is a document entitled"Proposals of Measures
19 Such as Current Problems in Kosovo and Metohija." It's a photocopy of a
20 booklet in our possession. Do you -- have you ever seen this document
21 before, a document of this nature before from the Provincial Board of the
22 SPS of Kosovo?
23 A. No, I've never seen this document before.
24 Q. Would the Provincial Board publish documents of this nature with
25 this recommendations for solutions to the problems in Kosovo and Metohija?
1 A. You mean would it publish such documents in public?
2 Q. Well, let's start with circulating among members of the party
3 itself; would it do that?
4 A. Yes. It's quite usual for Provincial Boards to have their own
5 documents and to distribute those in a written form to members of their
7 Q. Do you see some handwriting on the top?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Can you recognise it?
10 A. No, I can't.
11 MR. STAMP: Can we move to page 2 of this document.
12 Q. Can you recognise the handwriting on the top there?
13 A. No, I can't.
14 Q. But I take it that you are familiar with documents like this,
15 documents of this nature?
16 A. I don't know what you mean by "this nature."
17 Q. By proposals from, for example, the Provincial Board of the party
18 in Kosovo in this format.
19 A. I'm unable to confirm about the format. I don't remember the form
20 and the appearance of those documents. I worked in the Main Board of the
21 SPS. I can't confirm whether this was the form used at the time.
22 MR. STAMP: Can we move to P810. This is -- these are some clips
23 from a video. Sorry. The exhibit is P2909, and these are clips from a
24 video which is P810, which I don't think is in evidence. What the clip
25 which I propose to tender is P2909.
1 [Videotape played]
2 MR. STAMP: This -- sorry. Before we proceed, may I just indicate
3 to the Court, it's a video or clips from a speech of Mr. Seselj made in
4 1989, and the -- it will be translated as it goes on, as it is played.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Are you saying it's already part of the process?
6 MR. STAMP: Part of the evidence?
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.
8 MR. STAMP: No. I don't think P810 has been tendered because it
9 is a long video, but I think bits and pieces of it might have been. What
10 we propose to do is to tender P2909, which are three small clips from what
11 is in fact a long video.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, proceed, please. Sorry, don't proceed.
13 Mr. Fila.
14 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I don't oppose this as a matter of
15 principle. As usual, I am not inclined to oppose any moves by the OTP in
16 an effort to prove something, but what I do oppose is bits of a document
17 being tendered separately as a separate document.
18 I think Mr. Stamp should tender the entire video, long as it may
19 be, for us to see it. My fear is that some of these bits and excerpts
20 might be taken out of context and might mislead us in some way. So that
21 is the only remark that I would like to place on the record.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stamp.
23 MR. STAMP: Your Honours, I think it will be our responsibility to
24 put before the Court the relevant part insofar as it is relevant to the
25 issues before the Court. The Defence has the entire thing, and like any
1 document they could use or proffer to the Court any part of that entire
2 thing or, indeed, the whole thing, if they think it would benefit the
3 Court from reviewing the whole thing.
4 But I don't think we had a responsibility to -- to just throw, as
5 it were, at the Court huge documents without trying to -- to extract the
6 relevant parts for the Court.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
8 Mr. O'Sullivan.
9 MR. O'SULLIVAN: There's one point. I believe Mr. Stamp said that
10 P810 is in evidence. I don't believe it is.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: He said it is not in evidence. If it says
12 otherwise on the transcript, it's different from what he actually told us.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stamp, what you propose is exactly what we've
15 invited the parties to do so far as possible in the case, and you should
16 proceed that way. It's for Mr. Fila, if he wishes, to explore other parts
17 of the video or, indeed, even invite us to view the whole video, but we
18 can deal with that in his re-examination.
19 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 [Videotape played]
21 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "And finally, that which is our most
22 vulnerable point: The Kosovo-Metohija issue, the issue of the Albanian
23 separatist insurgency. The current military and police action in Kosovo
24 and Metohija succeeded in eliminating the most extreme aspects of Albanian
25 separatism and the repression of the Serbian population that lives there.
1 "But I'm convinced that a lasting solution cannot be achieved in
2 this way. In order to achieve the solution of Kosovo and Metohija issue,
3 I propose a new colonisation of Kosovo and Metohija."
5 MR. STAMP: Could we stop there. What I'm not sure of is if the
6 witness hearing the video in the original Serb language? Is the witness
7 hearing the video?
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Please ask him.
9 MR. STAMP:
10 Q. Did you hear that, sir, in Serbian?
11 A. Yes.
12 MR. STAMP: Could we move on to clip 2, please. Oh, could we
13 continue clip 1. I'm told that clip 1 is not finished yet.
14 [Videotape played]
15 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "One should have no illusions about
16 the possibility of returning those Serbs who have left Kosovo and
17 Metohija, who have learned what it means to live with Albanians, a
18 primitive and uncivilised people, as their next-door neighbours, who made
19 it Belgrade and Serbia proper, found jobs there, built houses there, sent
20 their children to school there, about the possibility of returning them to
21 the nightmare of Kosovo and Metohija."
22 MR. STAMP: Could we now proceed to clip 2, please.
23 [Videotape played]
24 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "... Whether it is moved to
25 Pristina, Prizren, or some other place is not so important. What is
1 important is that by moving the capital, the state institutions would be
2 moved, all the state bodies and institutions, several hundred thousand
3 government employees and members of their families would be moved.
4 "In this way, the overall ethnic composition of the population of
5 Kosovo and Metohija would change in a significant way, and it would mean a
6 fresh financial injection, and the economic development of this depressed
7 region would accelerate."
8 MR. STAMP: Could we continue, please, to clip 3.
9 [Videotape played]
10 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "What I think the most important of
11 all is this: I propose that all 360.000 Albanian immigrants who crossed
12 over into Serbia and Yugoslavia from Albania after the 6th of April, 1941
13 urgently be sent back to Albania and be delivered to the UN High
14 Commissioner for Refugees."
15 MR. STAMP: Thank you.
16 Q. You're a political scientist and a scholar. You told me earlier
17 that you were not aware that Mr. Seselj was proposing the deportation of
18 Albanians from Kosovo. Can I just ask you that a second time? As a
19 professional scholar in your field, and as somebody who participated in
20 the political life of your country for many years, were you not aware that
21 Mr. Seselj was proposing the deportation of Albanians from Kosovo as the
22 solution to the problems in Kosovo?
23 MR. LUKIC: May I object, Your Honour. I'm sorry. This is not my
24 witness, but this is not correct representation of the evidence.
25 Mr. Seselj was proposing to deport Albania Albanians from Kosovo
1 who does not have proper papers to live in this country, and he continued
2 the next --
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic, I don't think that that sort of
4 information in an objection is appropriate with the witness present in
6 MR. LUKIC: But we heard it on that video.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, he will be able to deal with that himself,
8 but the question is quite clear: "Were you not aware that Mr. Seselj was
9 proposing the deportation of Albanians from Kosovo as the solution to the
10 problems in Kosovo?" And that's perfectly consistent with what you've
11 just said, and if the witness wants to explain more, that's for him.
12 MR. LUKIC: We have to divide Albanians from Albania and Albanians
13 from Kosovo. He mentioned Albanians from Albania, not from Kosovo.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Indeed.
15 MR. LUKIC: But the question should be composed in that way. Not
16 just Albanians. We have to --
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, the whole matter's been so disrupted. This
18 has been a quite inappropriate intervention without the witness being
19 asked to leave the court. The whole point is now defeated in this piece
20 of cross-examination.
21 MR. LUKIC: But the question --
22 JUDGE BONOMY: But the question in English, it may be different in
23 Serbia, but in English, it is not suggested that these are Kosovo
25 MR. LUKIC: But not either suggested that they were Albania
2 JUDGE BONOMY: It just says "Albanians."
3 MR. LUKIC: Exactly. That should be specified --
4 JUDGE BONOMY: What's wrong with --
5 MR. LUKIC: It should be --
6 JUDGE BONOMY: There is nothing --
7 MR LUKIC: Because the question talked --
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Please sit down. Your objection is repelled.
9 Please continue, Mr. Stamp.
10 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 Q. Mr. Jovanovic, I think I will not go down that road any further.
12 Can I just ask you this: You told us earlier that you agreed with
13 Mr. Seselj that a lot of the Albanians in Kosovo were not Kosovo
14 Albanians; they were migrants. Can I ask you this: Do you agree with
15 Mr. Seselj that these --
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Allow --
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you please --
18 JUDGE BONOMY: -- him to finish the question.
19 MR. STAMP:
20 Q. -- that these so-called Albania Albanians should be sent back to
22 A. First of all, in your question, there is a statement that is
23 factually untrue. I don't remember ever agreeing with that position you
24 mentioned while I was answering your questions yesterday. So may that
25 please be checked first of all.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: I don't understand what it is you say you don't
2 ever remember agreeing. What is it you say --
3 MR. STAMP: My recollection is that he -- when I put to him that
4 Mr. Seselj had said that many of the Albanians in Albania were migrants --
5 sorry, many of the Albanians in Kosovo were migrants from Albania and were
6 not in fact Kosovar, he agreed that Mr. Seselj was correct on that.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: And do you have a reference for that?
8 MR. STAMP: At 14223, line 14, 15, from line 15, question: "Are
9 you not aware that Mr. Seselj claimed that there were hundreds of
10 thousands of Albanians living in Kosovo who were not from Kosovo?
11 Answer: "I am aware of that claim and that is a true fact."
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, does that help you, Mr. Jovanovic?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that definitely helps.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you now deal with the question that's been
15 asked, please.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's a well-known fact that, over
17 several decades, people were crossing into Kosmet from Albania in a bid to
18 flee from the horrifying conditions under Enver Hodja's regime, and that
19 is how many Albanians from Albania arrived in Kosovo and Metohija. They
20 were never properly registered. If I may --
21 JUDGE BONOMY: If you would just deal with the question. I mean,
22 do you agree with Mr. Seselj that those who were not Kosovo Albanians but
23 migrants should be sent back?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course I do not agree that this
25 should be done by force; but as any other country, I believe we should
1 protect our position by dealing with those citizens who don't have proper
2 papers, regular papers, as any country would through a regular procedure
3 and send them back to their own home countries.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Were you aware of Mr. Seselj advocating this
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm aware of this position.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: And, yesterday, you weren't aware of it; is that
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've just seen the footage, Your
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Had you forgotten about it or was this new to you
12 or what?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's new to me. I've just seen the
14 recording, and I don't remember that statement originally being made or
15 taped like this. And could I please have the year for this recording? I
16 would really find that very helpful.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Counsel said "1989."
18 Mr. Stamp.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.
20 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] My apologies, Your Honour. Just a
21 minute. I think that yesterday the witness said that he was aware of
22 Seselj making those statements. I will go back through the transcript
23 myself to check.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you help us on the transcript, Mr. Stamp.
25 MR. STAMP: Yes. My recollection is that he said that he did
1 not -- was not aware, and it's at 14223.
2 Question: "Are you aware that for" -- sorry, I beg your pardon.
3 "Are you aware that Mr. Seselj had proposed expulsion of some Albanians
4 from Kosovo." And he answered: "I'm not I wear of that."
5 JUDGE BONOMY: It seems to be clear enough, Mr. Fila.
6 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] No, no. I'll check, Your Honour, but I
7 think he said he knew about Seselj requesting that those people be
9 MR. STAMP:
10 Q. That position that you just took, Witness, shall we say the status
11 of these people that moved across the border and were living in Kosovo for
12 decades should be regularised, you're saying not by force, but that
13 position which you are saying is your position, was that a position which
14 by the latter half of 1998 many senior persons in your party had begun to
15 adopt, undertake? The same position that you just advocated here?
16 A. I don't remember an official position by the SPS confirming that
17 the Albanians who had crossed over into Kosmet illegally from Albania
18 should be expelled, should be sent back by force, nor was that a subject
19 that was ever discussed by the party, at least not as far as my knowledge
21 Q. I take it that your employment by the SPS as an expert was based
22 not only on your political skills and training but also your world view,
23 your political philosophy, then, could I say?
24 A. One's own world view is one thing. The other thing is what your
25 employer may or may not choose to adopt and include in their official
2 Q. Well, that is precisely the point. Some things were in official
3 documents and some things were not. Well, I guess that's a statement.
4 MR. STAMP: I have no further questions, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Just before you re-examine.
6 Mr. Lukic, is there anything arising out of this that you think
7 needs to be clarified from your point of view?
8 MR. LUKIC: No, Your Honour. I just wanted to point out the
9 differences in between the question and what Mr. Seselj said.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, I --
11 MR. LUKIC: I have nothing further. Thank you.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: I simply invite you in future to do it in a more
13 subtle way. As it turns out, no damage was done in this instance, but it
14 can be done because the result of the objection can be to alert the
15 witness to a point that perhaps would not otherwise have occurred to him;
16 and, therefore, if there's a risk of that, you should invite us to ask the
17 witness to leave the courtroom.
18 MR. LUKIC: I apologise. Thank you, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
20 Mr. Fila.
21 Re-examination by Mr. Fila:
22 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Can we please first have P425. This is
23 an OTP document that was just shown a minute ago. Can we please have page
24 1 back on our screens.
25 Q. You see what the Prosecutor warned you about? It says: "Crime at
1 Pec, the 14th of December, 1998." Do you remember anything like this in
2 Pec in the Panda Cafe, six Serbs being murdered there on that day?
3 Teenagers, young Serbs.
4 A. Yes. I remember that a bomb was thrown into that cafe and six
5 young people were killed?
6 Q. Could be this be in reference to that crime, unless of course the
7 claim is being made that the Serbs were simply killing themselves, because
8 that was also something we heard?
9 A. It's entirely possible that this note is in reference to that
10 crime and the date is quite specific.
11 Q. Thank you. Let's move on. Are you aware at all of the fact that
12 Seselj gave all sorts of statements from the moment he became the
13 president of the Radical Party? What sort of statements being made by him
14 do you remember?
15 A. Well, look, this is a very long period and there were different
16 statements. Some were very inflammatory. Of course, that does not mean
17 that we, as a political party, accepted that what Mr. Seselj as the
18 president of the Serb Radical Party said, especially when we were in
19 coalition. As is well known, politicians say all sorts of things in
20 public. So the Socialist Party of Serbia called Mr. Seselj and the Serb
21 Radical Party "fascists," and Mr. Seselj and his party called our party
22 "traitors." Nevertheless, we formed a coalition government in the
23 interest of defending state and national interests.
24 In the official positions of the government, and in terms of what
25 the official authorities did, there is not a single act or a political
1 position that would mean violently resolving the problem in Kosovo or
2 taking any kind of forceful or illegal action against the overall
3 population in this province of ours.
4 Q. Thank you. You saw the footage, and the Prosecutor says that is
5 in 1989. That's about ten years before the things for which we are
6 sitting in this courtroom happened. If you saw this footage, well, is
7 this some kind of a political party manifestation? Is it in the United
8 Nations? What does this look like to you? Or should we play the footage
9 for you again?
10 A. It is very thankless to comment on something that is taken out of
11 context. That is the first matter I wish to refer to.
12 Secondly, I did see the video clip but it's very blurred.
13 Thirdly, on the basis of what is seen on the video clip, it is
14 possible that he's speaking in front of a small number of people in a
15 small office, and, obviously, this is a gathering of his political party
16 or for promotion purposes. In terms of the setting, as far as we can see
17 from the video clip, it is by no means official premises or public
19 Q. Will you remember that, in his public statements, Seselj insulted
20 President Milosevic, his wife, his children, you, all of you? What were
21 all the things he said? Don't hesitate. We have to see how serious
22 statements made by such a specimen of the human race are.
23 A. Mr. Seselj used very ugly and insulting expressions for our
24 president, Slobodan Milosevic, and for his wife, calling her the "Red
25 Witch," insulting his children. As for the arsenal of insults thrown at
1 the Socialist Party of Serbia, it was wide-ranging. Most serious were
2 these words about betraying state and national interests.
3 Q. How did you betray state and national interests?
4 A. Specifically, it was said when the Dayton peace agreement was
5 signed, he and his party opposed that, and they were in fierce opposition
6 to that, to the Socialist Party of Serbia in that period. This was
7 uttered not at some party gatherings but in an Official Note in parliament
8 when the Serb Radical Party initiated proceedings to have the government
10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The interpreter did not
11 hear Mr. Fila's question.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Dayton Accords have to do with
13 peace in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
14 May I answer? It is well-known that we practically accepted and
15 supported all peace agreements that were being offered for
17 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]
18 Q. And he called that treason?
19 A. He called that treason.
20 Q. What was his characterisation of the Kumanovo agreement?
21 A. The Serb Radical Party and Mr. Seselj were against the Kumanovo
22 agreement, and, practically, they boycotted the work of the Assembly then
23 and they did not vote to support the Kumanovo agreement.
24 Q. Thank you. Let me ask you something now, Mr. Jovanovic, because
25 you got all these fabulous compliments from the Prosecutor that you were a
1 political scientist, a scholar, that you were involved in the field of
2 scholarly studies.
3 When you said all of this what Seselj said about the Socialist
4 Party of Serbia, that your president was insulted, his wife, the party,
5 does that mean coalition when you -- do you accept all of that that is
6 said by your coalition partners?
7 A. We absolutely did not accept such positions. But when -- if
8 political parties were to look at what they were saying about one another,
9 then it would be very hard to form a coalition government in any country.
10 Q. Did you accept his extremist views in relation to Kosovo or
11 anything else, as the Prosecutor says, either in the documents or de facto
12 or both?
13 A. We did not accept extremist views, not only of the Serb Radical
14 Party but of any other party. We had a clearly defined policy based on a
15 political solution by peaceful means with the full equality of all ethnic
16 communities. We insisted on that to the very end, and this is contained
17 in state documents. It is clear that in this way we suppressed the
18 extremist views that did exist in the public.
19 Q. Now I would like to ask you to -- do you still have that? Oh,
20 yes. Tab 12.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Before you move to a different subject, there are a
22 couple of issues to be clarified.
23 Can you give me an example of Mr. Seselj's extremist views on
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is hard for me to remember now
1 and to interpret some statements without being complete. In part of this
2 video footage, we saw that he advocated a fast resolution of the Kosovo
3 problem by radical means, but this was more rhetorical rather than being
4 translated into any kind of concrete action.
5 If I may, I would like to explain. We had formed a government
6 with the Serb Radical Party; but at the same time, as regards Kosmet, we
7 talked to those who attacked our country, killed our citizens, and carried
8 out terrorist actions; that is to say, that the fact that we talked to the
9 extremists does not mean that we accepted their positions and their
11 JUDGE BONOMY: I wonder if you would answer my question, please,
12 and give me an example of an extremist position taken by Mr. Seselj in
13 relation to Kosovo.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Right now I cannot remember a
15 specific example and take it out of context.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you give us an example of an extremist position
17 he took when you were in coalition that your party did not accept, on any
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I've already mentioned the
20 non-acceptance of the Kumanovo agreement. He had rejected that document,
21 and they did not support it in parliament.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: And remind us of the date of the Kumanovo
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was sometime in March. It was
25 sometime around the 75th day of the bombing if you start counting from the
1 24th of March. I do not recall the exact date.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: And what did that do to the coalition?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, Mr. Seselj left the coalition.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: So let's look at a situation where in the currency
5 of the coalition Mr. Seselj adopted an extremist position which your party
6 would not accept. Give me an example of him doing that on any subject at
7 all. Take the world as your oyster.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not understand the question.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: I'll repeat it. Let's look at a situation where
10 during the coalition Mr. Seselj adopted an extremist position which your
11 party would not accept on any subject at all. It doesn't need to be
12 confined to Kosovo.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, there were different examples
14 related to legislation from the field of employment, the taxation system,
15 the budget, but it is only natural that in a coalition one partner may
16 propose something but the other partner doesn't have to support it
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Jovanovic, this is about extremist positions,
19 not about normal political disagreement. Please confine your answer to an
20 extremist position that Mr. Seselj has taken, something that is
21 universally unacceptable.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot recall any such statement
24 JUDGE BONOMY: So, in his political life, Mr. Seselj's activities
25 and his positions were, in your opinion, all reasonable.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is not what I said. I said
2 that I cannot remember any extremist positions.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Fila.
4 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]
5 Q. I'm trying to be helpful. Did Mr. Seselj mention Mount
6 Prokletija, and that you did not accept something in relation to that?
7 A. Yes. There was a statement of that nature, that the Siptars
8 should be sent to the other side of Mount Prokletija. Of course, we did
9 not accept that or any other such positions, but it is hard for me to
10 remember them now and to locate them in a time that would be relevant to a
11 narrower area because there are many events and many things that were
12 referred to.
13 Q. Was a border mentioned that would not be in keeping with Dayton,
14 Karlovac, Karlobag?
15 A. Yes. Mr. Seselj's standard statement that the western boundary
16 should be along that line that you referred to.
17 Q. Did you accept that position?
18 A. Of course, we did not. We supported peace agreements for Croatia
19 and for Bosnia-Herzegovina.
20 Q. In your view, would these be examples of extremist views, what was
21 referred to just now?
22 A. Yes. These are examples of extremist views that we did not
24 Q. Thank you.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Are you actually saying that after Dayton, during
1 the coalition, the Serb Radical Party position was that the border had
2 been wrongly defined and should be changed?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, there is such a position.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: And you were able to remain in coalition with a
5 party that thought that the border should be changed?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We managed to, because we did not
7 accept such a position, and it was not official state policy.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
9 Mr. Fila.
10 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]
11 Q. I can go on until tomorrow morning listing all of these positions,
12 but these two will do. Now I would like to move on to something else.
13 Please look at tab 12, 1D91. Please look at item 3. It says
14 there that "competent state authorities will organise as soon as
15 possible." Could you read it out now?
16 A. Give me the page.
17 Q. Well, we'll have a look. It's hard for me to do everything at the
18 same time. So tab 12.
19 MR. STAMP: I think that if counsel proposes to ask questions
20 about a document that I didn't ask questions about, then perhaps he should
21 preface what he's doing by indicating how it arises in re-examination.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: How does that arise, Mr. Fila?
23 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]
24 Q. It says there that the "competent state authorities ..." --
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Fila, there's been an intervention asking you
1 to explain how this document can be explored on a matter that arises out
2 of cross-examination. What is it that Mr. Stamp raised that you are
3 dealing with by referring to this document?
4 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I am now going to resolve that straight
5 away. Sorry. I was dealing with something else. I didn't hear you. It
6 has to do with the census, the population census. Look at what I'm
7 talking about. Mr. Stamp raised the question of the Albanian population,
8 the census, and so on. So that's it. I simply didn't hear you.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: That's all he wanted, an indication of the subject.
10 Please continue.
11 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]
12 Q. It is stated there that the state organs would carry out a census
13 under the supervision of the OSCE. Why was a census needed, and was it
14 supposed to be carried out before the elections? That is why you need to
15 look at item 4 as well, and to explain all of that to us.
16 A. The census was needed because in Kosmet, in all the censuses that
17 were carried out from 1948 and then 1953 and then 1961 and then 1971, and
18 especially 1981, there were serious objections raised in terms of forging
19 the results of these censuses. That is why we advocated having the census
20 carried out under the auspices of the OSCE, so that, once and for all,
21 there would be the most precise information possible about population
22 numbers and the representation of different ethnic communities in Kosovo.
23 In the very last document that the Prosecution showed me, in the
24 English language, there is a reference to Albanians constituting 81 per
25 cent of the population. The federal statistics office in the officially
1 published study related to the census, in the methodological notes, it
2 explicitly states that they tried to prevent a boycott of the census, that
3 they contacted the Academy of Sciences of Kosovo and Metohija, that they
4 contacted political parties in Kosovo and Metohija, and that they made
5 certain reservations and set certain pre-conditions for their support of
6 the census.
7 Their conditions related to the following: "Mixed composition of
8 the census teams that would visit households." That was accepted.
9 "Bilingual census materials," which was also accepted. "Control and
10 verification when processing the data," which was also accept. However,
11 in spite of the fact that these positions were accepted, they boycotted
12 the 1991 census.
13 Now look at this. This is what statistics officially say: "We
14 made an estimate on the basis of the data from 1981, and there is a
15 serious suspicion that the data in 1981 were forged in the following way:
16 The census was carried out without any kind of control by the provincial
17 statistics office, and, abruptly, there was a disappearance of Roma and
18 then the Turks from the statistics data; then Muslims, then Egyptians."
19 You now have information from 1991 and --
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Do you need all this information?
21 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, please control the witness --
23 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] No.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: It is difficult for me to judge what is necessary
25 for your case, so please exercise control over his answers.
1 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 Q. It was my wish to establish why in that agreement you asked for
3 the census to be carried out under OSCE supervision. Could you give a
4 shorter answer? What was the reason?
5 A. The first reason was to establish as objectively as possible facts
6 related to population numbers and their ethnic composition. The second
7 one was to prepare voting lists because elections were supposed to be
9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Interpreters did not hear
10 Mr. Fila.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Within nine months' time, free and
12 fair elections would be held for all organs in Kosovo and Metohija, and
13 this document envisages that the government of the Federal Republic of
14 Yugoslavia called upon the OSCE to supervise these elections.
15 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]
16 Q. During the census, would only those who have proof of citizenship
17 of the province of Serbia and Yugoslavia and so on be registered?
18 A. Absolutely. What would be established would be the exact number
19 of inhabitants according to these documents.
20 Q. Please look at tab 13 now. The same subject like the previous.
21 This is an agreement dated the 15th of March, 1999. It's a
22 Defence exhibit, 2D384. Please look at chapter 3. Does this envisage a
23 census done jointly with the OSCE?
24 A. Yes. Here, there are three points stating that: "The competent
25 state organs together with the OSCE will," it says here "as soon as
1 possible, make it possible to contact an objective and free census which
2 will ..." --
3 JUDGE BONOMY: You've answered the question. If Mr. Fila wants
4 more information, he'll ask you for it.
5 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Does that mean that the institutions in Kosovo and Metohija would
7 be established in the manner proposed in this agreement, regardless of
8 whether someone thought there were so many of those and so many of the
9 other ones?
10 A. Absolutely. The institutions would be set up according to the
11 results of the census which would be conducted.
12 Q. And would then all these claims about the numbers of Albanians,
13 Serbs, and other groups then be superfluous if a census were carried out
14 under the supervision and with the monitoring of the OSCE?
15 A. I'm convinced the answer is yes.
16 Q. And would then, in your view, this topic be forever closed about
17 the number of citizens of this or that ethnicity or religion?
18 A. I don't think it would be closed for good, because passions are
19 involved mere, but the results would be questions would be objective and
20 acceptable to all sides.
21 Q. Did our side ask for that?
22 A. Yes. Our side asked for that then, and our government is still
23 insisting on it today because a census has not been conducted yet
24 according to these criteria.
25 Q. And, finally, the Prosecutor and also His Honour the Presiding
1 Judge dealt with the issue of confidence. The co-presidents, Mr. Vedrine
2 and Cook, did they hand that document over to the Albanians? And you then
3 said that you had no reason not to believe he did, because they gave you
4 documents from the Albanians.
5 I would like to delve a little deeper into this. How did you find
6 out whether the other side, which was sending you these documents through
7 Messrs. Vedrine and Cook, was receiving the documents? How did you come
8 by this information?
9 A. Their replies were conveyed by the negotiating troika.
10 Ambassadors Hill, Mayorski, and the Albanian delegation stated publicly
11 their attitude to the documents they received, and that's how we learned
12 about it.
13 Q. Can you assert with certainty that the Albanian side was familiar
14 with all the attempts being made by our side?
15 A. I'm absolutely sure that the Albanian side was acquainted with the
16 contents of our document in full.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] That concludes my -- my examination.
19 Thank you --
20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Re-examination.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Fila.
22 Mr. Jovanovic, that completes your evidence. Thank you for coming
23 to the Tribunal to give it. You're now free to leave the courtroom.
24 [The witness withdrew]
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Before proceeding to the next witness, let me raise
1 one administrative matter. There is a motion before the Trial Chamber, at
2 the instance of the accused Lukic, to bar the Prosecution from
3 interviewing any of the Defence witnesses. The Chamber propose having a
4 hearing on this to explore certain issues with the parties, but also to
5 hear any further submissions that they wish to make.
6 I'm giving you notice of this, at the moment, so that you can be
7 prepared for it, because it may be fixed at very short notice. What we'll
8 try to do is not intrude upon the sitting times for taking evidence, and
9 there may be a measure of flexibility about the available time next week.
10 So please be prepared for that at short notice.
11 Your next witness now, Mr. Fila.
12 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my next witness is Andreja
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
15 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I would like to take this opportunity
16 to thank Mr. Hannis for his great assistance in having Mr. Vasiljevic
17 appear on videolink on the 29th. As you saw, I was right when I thought
18 the right man had to be asked.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
20 [The witness entered court]
21 WITNESS: ANDREJA MILOSAVLJEVIC
22 [Witness answered through interpreter]
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Good morning Mr. Milosavljevic.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Would you please make the solemn declaration to
1 speak the truth by reading aloud the document which will now be shown to
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
4 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Please be seated. You will now be
6 examined by Mr. Fila on behalf of Mr. Sainovic.
7 Mr. Fila.
8 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you. I would like the witness to
9 be given and bundle of exhibits, and for the Prosecutor, please.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Give praise to the Prosecutor with one hand,
11 Mr. Fila, and take the legs away from him with the other.
12 Very well. Please proceed.
13 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Well, but I have given him a copy.
14 Very Christian on my part.
15 Examination by Mr. Fila:
16 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Milosavljevic, are you all right?
17 A. Yes, relatively.
18 Q. You are the oldest witness who has been here to date, so we will
19 understand that.
20 A. Well, 71, that's quite a lot.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm now asking myself whether you're the oldest in
22 the courtroom though. We have never found out the answer to that
24 Please continue.
25 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Well, the Defence is stronger there.
1 Mr. Sep -- is quite old.
2 Q. Will you please give us your full name, and then tell us about
3 your career.
4 A. My name is Andreja Milosavljevic. I was born in October 1936 in
5 the municipality of Zagubica, Serbia. I completed primary school in my
6 native Krpoljin, the secondary school in Petrovac Na Mlavi, and the
7 Faculty of Law in Belgrade. I retired as a misdemeanors judge. I was
8 also deputy president of a municipality. I was --
9 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please slow down.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Milosavljevic, it is quite important to perhaps
11 speak a little more slowly than you would normally do because everything
12 has to be translated, and the interpreter has to have an opportunity of
13 picking it all up.
14 It's also helpful if you can just pause after the questions asked
15 to allow that to be translated before you answer, so that we can develop a
16 routine here which will ensure that everything is properly translated.
17 Mr. Fila.
18 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]
19 Q. It's not on the record, Mr. Milosavljevic, so we will repeat. You
20 say you graduated from the Faculty of Law. You were a misdemeanors judge.
21 That's how far we've got. Then you were a secretary?
22 A. The secretary of the Municipal Assembly of Zagubica, the president
23 of Zagubica municipality in several terms of office, director of the
24 Jasenovac coal mine in Krpoljin, managing director of the cast factory in
25 Zagubica, minister in the government of the Republic of Serbia, and
1 president of the Committee for Establishing Damage from Natural Disasters.
2 Q. At the level of the Republic of Serbia?
3 A. Yes, at republican level.
4 Q. In what period of time were you a minister in the government of
5 the Republic of Serbia?
6 A. I was a minister in the government of the Republic of Serbia
7 tasked with development and reconstruction and promoting local
8 self-management in the period from March 1994 to March 1998, throughout
9 this term of office. I was also Minister of Religions in the period of
10 September 1997 to the end of March 1998.
11 Q. And, in that period, did the government appoint you president of
12 the Committee for Establishing Damage caused by Natural Disasters?
13 A. When the government was appointed, I was -- from that time, I was
14 president of the Commission for Establishing Damage Caused by Natural
15 Disasters, and I was re-elected president of the commission in -- at the
16 end of April 1998.
17 Q. Mr. Milosavljevic, did you go to Kosovo and Metohija before 1998?
18 A. Yes. As the director of the cast factory in Zagubica, in the
19 1980s, I would go to Janjevo, which is close to Pristina, to visit the
20 Metalac factory, because we had similar programmes and similar production
21 lines. I would go there to obtain raw materials, tools, and semi-finished
23 Q. Mr. Milosavljevic, you've been -- you've lived for quite a long
24 time, so if we were to go through your entire CV, it would take a long
25 time. So as minister?
1 A. As minister in charge of local self-administration, I often had
2 occasion to go to Kosovo and Metohija in order to deal with important
3 issues falling under the competence of the republic. These were issues of
4 functioning, funding, the work of the administrative organs, and so on and
5 so forth. I was especially tasked with establishing the reasons for the
6 setting up of municipal councils in the municipalities where elections had
7 not been held or had been held but were irregular, and then the government
8 of the Republic of Serbia established municipal councils whose task was to
9 replace the work of the Municipal Assembly and its Executive Committee.
10 In these municipalities, the citizens did not turn up to vote, and
11 that's why the organs were not elected. The government of the republic,
12 in compliance with the Law on the Territorial Organisation of the Republic
13 of Serbia and local self-administration and the provisions contained in
14 Article 45 and 64(A) of this law, was duty-bound to set up these municipal
15 councils so that the municipalities could continue to function.
16 I can enumerate some municipalities, such as Glogovac, Decani,
17 Stimlje, and so on.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Is this information we need to have?
19 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] No, but it's hard to stop him.
20 Q. And when you were president of the Commission for Repairing Damage
21 from Natural Disasters, did you visit Kosovo?
22 A. Yes, on several occasions.
23 Q. Did you hold any positions such as president of a management board
24 at that time?
25 A. In 1997, I was appointed president of the management board of one
1 of the largest companies in Kosovo and Metohija, Feronikel from Glogovac,
2 which employed 1.800 personnel, 85 per cent of whom were Albanians.
3 Q. And did this complex have any difficulties in doing business?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Please, when I put my question, look at your screen; and when you
6 see the writing stopping, that's the time to start answering. I do the
8 So did the Feronikel company, of which you were the president of
9 the management board, run into difficulties, and how did it solve these?
10 A. Well, precisely. Because it had great difficulties, there were
11 frequent meetings of the management board with a view to finding adequate
12 solutions. Tasks were handed out, new decisions had to be reached, debts
13 had to be rescheduled. Production had to go on because the state was very
14 interested in these products as almost a hundred per cent of our products
15 were exported.
16 Q. And how was this solved?
17 A. Well, attempts were made to solve of it. All decisions were is
18 made on time, funds were found, and the company continued working;
19 although, there were problems there, averages and so on.
20 Q. Did you become involved in solving the problems of other
22 A. Yes, Trepca and so on.
23 Q. All right. Can we, therefore, conclude that the conditions and
24 problems in Kosovo and Metohija were something you were familiar with,
25 quite well, in fact?
1 A. Quite well. Yes, I'd put it that way.
2 Q. Fine. During your time in Kosovo, did you take part in any
3 negotiations about Kosovo and Metohija as a member of the negotiating team
4 led by Ratko Markovic?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Please, before you answer, look at 1D78.
7 A. Yes. This is --
8 Q. Can I ask my question first, please. 1D78. Can you tell us what
9 this is about, sir?
10 A. This is a statement made by the Information of Ministry of the
11 government of the Republic of Serbia, saying that at its session, dated
12 the 10th of March, 1998, the government appointed its representatives for
13 talks with the leaders of the Albanian parties and associations.
14 Q. Who were the members of this negotiating team?
15 A. On behalf of the government, heading the delegation was Professor
16 Ratko Markovic, and the delegation also comprised three of the government
17 ministers: Minister Vico, Mr. Sedlak, and myself.
18 Q. What was the reason for the cabinet deciding to send you there.
19 A. We wanted to have a dialogue. The cabinet was in favour of that.
20 It was in favour of using political means to deal with problems, because
21 what depended on this were the human civil rights of all of those in
22 Kosovo, as well as issues connected with the economic --
23 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note; could the speakers please
24 not overlap. Thank you.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- the constitution of Serbia was
1 used as a framework for these talks, as well as international and European
2 standards; the UN charter; the Paris charter of the OSCE; there was the
3 Helsinki final act; and the framework convention of the Council of Europe
4 on ethnic issues -- or rather, ethnic minorities, the protection of ethnic
6 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Did you go there a number of times, and did any representatives of
8 Albanian majority parties ever turn up at these meetings?
9 A. Yes. I did go a number of times with this delegation. I went to
10 these talks, and as far as I remember, seven or eight times. Once the new
11 cabinet had been set up, the new negotiating team was established and I
12 was no longer a member.
13 Q. And the new cabinet was elected when?
14 A. Late March 1998. Albanian majority parties did not go to those
15 meetings. Some other ethnic groups were represented: The Roma, the
16 Gorani, and so on and so forth. We talked several times. We talked to
17 whoever was there, but we went no further than that.
18 Q. What do you mean by that; "we went no further than that"?
19 A. What I mean is the majority parties of the Albanians would not
20 turn up for these talks. We would just go there and then we would leave.
21 Q. To what position were you appointed in June 1998?
22 A. Early in June 1998, I was appointed coordinator of the state
23 bodies in Kosovo and Metohija.
24 Q. Which state?
25 A. The Republic of Serbia.
1 Q. And your task was to do what?
2 A. To coordinate the work of all state organs, state bodies, and to
3 implement measures and any policies pursued by the government of the
4 Republic of Serbia based on any enactments adopted, and so on and so
5 forth. Already decrees adopted.
6 Q. To coordinate the work of all state bodies in Kosovo and Metohija,
7 you say, and to work in line with which legal enactments?
8 A. The constitution and all the positive laws and any decrees adopted
9 by the government of the Republic of Serbia.
10 Q. The objective being what?
11 A. The objective was for all of the state bodies to work smoothly
12 with no interruptions or irregularities and to have a normal life in
13 Kosovo and Metohija, for life to go on as usual.
14 Q. Could you now please go to exhibit -- or rather, a proposed
15 Defence Exhibit, 2D136. Have you found it, sir?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Can you look at it carefully and slowly -- go through it slowly
18 and tell me when I can start asking my questions.
19 A. Fire away.
20 Q. Can you have a look, please, first?
21 A. No need. I know this.
22 Q. The first document --
23 A. The first document.
24 Q. The first document is a different document; right?
25 A. No, no, no, no. What I have is the deputy Secretary-General, Mira
2 Q. Take it easy, please. Whose document is this?
3 A. The government of the Republic of Serbia.
4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The interpreters didn't
5 hear the question.
6 Q. And this deputy General-Secretary, Mira Djurekovic, is informing
7 you about what?
8 A. About the fact that I was appointed coordinator of the work of
9 state bodies in Kosovo and Metohija --
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Can we have that --
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] - adopted by the prime minister of
12 the Republic of Serbia.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: -- on the screen because it doesn't appear to be in
14 the bundle.
15 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] This is 2D356.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: That is in the bundle. Thank you.
17 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Mr. Milosavljevic, please, can you wait until after I have
19 finished asking my question, and then there's the interpretation, and then
20 please steadily. We're in no hurry at all. This is not a sprinting
21 competition, sir.
22 Could you now please look at the next document. What does this
23 document say?
24 A. This document tells me that I am hereby appointed coordinator of
25 the work of state organs or bodies of the Republic of Serbia in Kosovo and
1 Metohija. It specifies my tasks. It says here that: "Andreja
2 Milosavljevic shall coordinate the work of all state organs in Kosovo and
3 Metohija, proceeding from their rights and duties as laid down in the
4 constitution and the law. He shall be required to report directly to me
5 on the work of these organs at least once a week."
6 Q. Who adopted this decision, and who is the person that you are
7 supposed to be reporting to at least once a week?
8 Can you please wait for the interpretation. Can you follow the
9 interpretation on the transcript. Once the letters stop appearing, please
10 start with your answer.
11 A. This decision was adopted by the prime minister of the Republic of
12 Serbia, Mr. Mirko Marjanovic, in June, more specifically, the 3rd of June,
14 Q. He so who are you supposed to be reporting to?
15 A. To him. That's what it says.
16 Q. Can you go to our third document now. It reads "Republic of
17 Serbia." So what's this about?
18 A. This is --
19 Q. Slowly, please.
20 A. This is a copy of a document that I received from most of the
21 ministries, informing me about the responsibilities of the certain
22 officials, certain persons, who it says would be in touch with me in
23 situations where the minister himself was to remain in contact.
24 In this specific case, there's the Ministry of Finance nominating
25 three persons, or rather, the deputy Minister of Finance, Mr. Golic, and
1 two assistants, one in charge of funding local self-administration and one
2 in charge of matters regarding to the entire system.
3 Q. You said that this was some sort of a pattern, a copy, a model, if
4 you like, a model document. It is a model document, in a manner of
5 speaking, but what exactly do you mean by that? Can you explain that?
6 A. What I mean is: I would receive information and reports from
7 other ministries that were just like this. I mean, the substance was very
8 much like this.
9 Q. Does this mean that all of the ministries were represented and all
10 of the ministries were helping you along? Most of the ministries at
12 A. Precisely. I wasn't in touch with all of them, really, just those
13 that were helpful in my work.
14 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] This might be a convenient time for our
15 break now that I've finished with this particular topic.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Fila.
17 Mr. Milosavljevic, we have to break at this point for 20 minutes
18 or so. The usher will show you where to go while we're out of court, so
19 could you please accompany the usher from the court.
20 [The witness stands down]
21 JUDGE BONOMY: I've been advised in the intervening time, there is
22 a prospect that we will be sitting on Tuesday, and that will be a Tuesday
23 afternoon sitting if it takes place.
24 We will resume at 10 minutes to 11.00.
25 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.
1 --- On resuming at 10.51 a.m.
2 [The witness takes the stand]
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Fila.
4 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Before the break, Mr. Milosavljevic, we spoke about your
6 responsibility to report to Prime Minister Marjanovic at least once a
7 week. Did you do that?
8 A. Yes, I did.
9 Q. All right. Let us talk about how long your responsibilities went
10 on for. Until what time did you remain in your position of coordinator
11 for the government of the Republic of Serbia in Kosovo and Metohija?
12 A. I arrived in Kosovo and Metohija early in June 1998. I left the
13 area on the 28th of September, 1998, on account of my illness. I attended
14 the second extraordinary session of the national assembly of the Republic
15 of Serbia, which considered the current situation, as well as the security
16 and economic situation in Kosovo and Metohija. There was the report of
17 the government of the Republic of Serbia on the measures taken to
18 normalise the conditions in Kosovo and Metohija.
19 I sat in the session until 1300 hours. I suddenly became very
20 ill, and I had to be taken urgently to the hospital of Bezanijska Kosa,
21 where after three or four days early in October I underwent surgery. I
22 stayed in hospital for quite some time; therefore, as of the 28th of
23 September, I had no further activities.
24 Q. All right. It is based on this that we shall be limiting
25 ourselves in our following set of questions. June, on the one hand, and
1 the 28th of September, on the other, this is the period that we'll be
2 discussing, sir.
3 Can you now please look at a Defence document, 2D372. Please look
4 at it slowly, gradually, and then I'll be asking you some questions about
6 A. All right.
7 Q. You've looked at the letter; right? I'll ask you something about
8 it. You have the document in front of you, don't you? I'll be pressing
9 on now.
10 We determined the period that you spent working hours as a
11 coordinator. Now we want to know about the scope of your work, what your
12 specific responsibilities were, what your work as coordinator of the
13 government of the Republic of Serbia for Kosovo and Metohija really
14 comprised. Slowly, please. These are complex words.
15 A. My work as coordinator in Kosovo and Metohija meant this: I was
16 coordinating the work of the ministries of the Republic of Serbia, the
17 head of district and the president -- the presidents of the
18 municipalities, and also goes without saying worked with the special
19 organs, such as the cadaster office, the revenue office, and so on and so
21 Q. Let me stop you there. How many districts were there? How many
22 heads of districts? How many municipalities and how many presidents of
23 the municipalities?
24 A. There's a total of five districts and five heads of districts in
25 Kosovo and Metohija. Those were appointed by the government of the
1 Republic of Serbia. There are a total of 29 municipalities with 29
2 presidents who were elected in keeping with legal regulations.
3 They were elected by municipal assemblies or whenever there were
4 municipal councils, and this applied to areas in which no elections were
5 held, or perhaps incomplete elections. In those cases, a Municipal
6 Council would step in, which was a council appointed by the government.
7 Q. Do you know the names of the heads of districts, and what were the
8 districts, specifically?
9 A. Yes. Of course, I know. I did work with those people, didn't I?
10 There was the Kosovo district in Pristina, Veljko Odalovic was head; the
11 Pec district, headed by Jovo Popovic; the Kosovska Mitrovica district,
12 headed by a number of different people. They took turns; Prizren
13 district, headed by Brankica Furijanovic; and then the Gnjilane district,
14 headed by Mr. Kovacevic.
15 As for the municipalities, I know the names of most of their
16 representatives, especially those with whom I was in close contact.
17 Q. Give us five or six.
18 A. Pec, Jovo Ivanovic; Pristina, Dusan Simic; and so on and so forth.
19 Q. During your activities on the ground, you talked about the
20 operation concerning the implementation of the regulations and policies of
21 the government of the Republic of Serbia. You were in touch with most of
22 the ministries; right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Which ministries, specifically, and why?
25 A. Well, specifically, the Ministry of Finance funding the work of
1 the municipalities, a shortage of funds which was particularly prominent
2 in some of the municipalities because of their special needs, needs that
3 had not been envisioned in the municipal budget, that had not been
4 provided for. There were interventions in certain companies in such
5 municipalities where this was needed. The Ministry of Agriculture --
6 Q. One thing at a time, please. What about some of the ministers and
7 deputy ministers, did they not travel to Pristina every once in awhile and
8 then fly back? And were some of them there all the time, and who were
9 those ministers and deputy ministers?
10 A. Most often, the Minister of Agriculture was in Kosovo,
11 Mr. Babovic; then the federal Minister for Internal Trade, Mr. Miskovic;
12 then the Minister of Justice would come, Mr. Jankovic.
13 Q. Serbia?
14 A. Yes, of Serbia. It was only that one. Well, then the Minister of
15 Health, Mrs. Leposava Milicevic, came. As for those who were permanently
16 stationed and were in my headquarters, or rather, in my team, that was the
17 assistant Minister for Labour and Social Matters, Mr. Tomislav Kujundzic;
18 and the assistant Minister for Agriculture, Mr. Slobodan Ilic.
19 Q. What about Health?
20 A. For Health, yes, he was there, too. Well, he was also operational
21 in the field. All of us who were down there were most often in the
22 municipalities where there were problems that had been manifested.
23 Q. When you were sent down there, you established this headquarters,
24 this outpost. What do we call it?
25 A. I was staying at the provincial authority's premises with these
1 three men who had been assigned to me, and I operated from there.
2 Q. You said that you went to municipalities often and that you had
3 contacts with all the five heads of districts and 29 municipalities, and
4 you said a few moments ago that you particularly went to the
5 municipalities where there were problems.
6 A. Yes, that's right.
7 Q. You established an outpost of the government of the Republic of
8 Serbia, if I understood you correctly. You were appointed coordinator.
9 A. It cannot be said that this was a special outpost.
10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The interpreters cannot
11 hear Mr. Fila.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These were people who helped me in
13 carrying out my work. I sent them, of course, to different municipalities
14 so that certain problems would be eliminated, problems that had cropped up
16 My method of work was to have meetings held from time to time with
17 all the presidents and heads, and especially sometimes in the districts.
18 Q. What were the special problems that you resolved on the ground;
19 that is to say, in these districts, municipalities, and so on? Try to
20 remember a few of them, a few types.
21 A. The problems were different. They varied from one municipality to
22 another. Somewhere it was the health services that functioned poorly,
23 then problems in education, problems in the work of the courts. There
24 were many cases and so on.
25 Q. Unresolved?
1 A. Yes, unresolved. What cases should be given priority, and so on;
2 then the functioning of local self-government, lack of water in individual
3 municipalities, settlements. There were other issues, too, related to the
4 functioning of the economy because we were making an effort to have
5 everything work in the conditions that were as they were.
6 I can say that most companies -- or rather, all companies, except
7 for a smaller number, did work while I was down there in Kosovo and
9 Q. All right. I think that we do get the picture in terms of what
10 your tasks were in Kosovo and Metohija as coordinator of the government of
11 the state of Serbia.
12 So would you agree with me that you were simply in charge of
13 making life happen as normally as possible?
14 A. I was in charge of making it possible for all institutions to
15 function and to have a normal life set up there.
16 Q. Now let us go back to why we are actually meeting here. Were
17 there problems in your work in relation to the situation that prevailed in
18 Kosovo in these complications? I shouldn't say the whole thing my,
19 because the situation was not quite normal, was it?
20 A. Indeed. There was a special state of fear among people. Many
21 roads had been closed down; for example, just to give you a few examples,
22 Orahovac-Pristina via Malisevo; then Decani-Djakovica; in the Kosovska
23 Mitrovica district, it was Srbica-Glogovac; and so on. People, the
24 presidents of the municipalities and other people out on the ground, were
25 stating that there were these difficulties, and people were afraid,
2 They were in a situation in which they were looking for a solution
3 in order to normalise the situation, to ensure unhindered movement, life,
4 and work, not to have any fear present. And there was fear, no doubt
5 about that. That was what the situation was. Even while I was there,
6 killings had started here and there; then the open-face mine that was the
7 artery for providing coal to the coal-fired power plants; then - what was
8 the name? - Bilacevac, yes, near Pristina. And it is only natural that
9 people made these demands. I conveyed this to the prime minister; that is
10 to say, an impression.
11 Q. Sorry, we'll get to that. Are you aware of the existence of the
12 KLA in the period while you were there; that is, June-September 1998?
13 What can you tell us about the activities of this organisation and the
14 consequences of their activity?
15 A. Well, you see, I did not deal with that particular subject
16 matter. But since I was there, I have eyes and ears, so I heard things
17 and I even saw some things. They, the KLA, carried out attacks here and
18 there in different places. They kidnapped and even killed people. No
19 doubt about that. I was informed about that, among other things, when I
20 talked to presidents of municipalities and people and citizens in villages
21 and towns where I went. So I can say --
22 Q. We'll get to that. Could you please now look at the letter that
23 is right in front of you, and tell us what this is, what you have before
24 you. Who kind this, and what is this all about?
25 A. This is a letter, a warning, whatever you wish to call it,
1 addressed by the president of the municipality of Orahovac, Mr. Andjelko
2 Kolasinac, in which he warns that every day the terrorists are moving the
3 lines closer and closer to Orahovac, Velika Hoca, Zociste, and Opterusa;
4 and, in fact, they encircled these settlements.
5 He is saying that the civilian population is running out of
6 patients because of day-to-day provocations by Albanian terrorists by
7 firearms. In this document, he appeals and hopes that the security forces
8 will resolve this problem, but, obviously, we can see in the text of the
9 letter that even he is losing hope. And he says here that there may even
10 be some self-organisation. Because if that would not happen, there would
11 be an exodus of the Serb people from that area or occupation by the KLA.
12 He --
13 Q. In that paragraph where he says, "in order to prevent the worst --
14 "In view of this, and in order to avoid the worst," does Mr. Kolasinac
15 think it is a bad solution if the population were to organise themselves?
16 What does he mean?
17 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I object.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis.
19 MR. HANNIS: I think that calls for speculation on the part of
20 this witness as phrased.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: I think that's right, Mr. Fila. I think that can
22 be asked possibly of the witness and his own concern, but it's really not
23 for him to interpret these words. This letter wasn't addressed to him,
24 for example. It was addressed to other people.
25 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] If you look at this down here, it says:
1 "To the government of the Republic of Serbia." He's the Republic of
2 Serbia. He's the government. It was submitted to him.
3 MR. HANNIS: Well, I'd like to hear that from the witness rather
4 than Mr. Fila.
5 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] It doesn't matter.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Milosavljevic, did you receive this letter in
7 your capacity as coordinator?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I received this letter, and I
9 personally talked to Mr. Kolasinac, the president of the municipality of
10 Orahovac, because right after that he came to see me in Pristina, and he
11 presented the whole problem to me.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Unfortunately --
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Well, in that case it is -- in that
15 case, it is open to you to ask, to expand upon the comment in the letter,
16 if you can, by asking appropriate questions.
17 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Mr. Milosavljevic, please carefully read the paragraph - one, two,
19 three, four - five. It says: "In view of this, and in order to avoid the
20 worst, people organising on their own initiative ..." What does that
22 A. That means that the Serb people would oppose such things
23 happening. Of course, that did not happen, because the position of the
24 state was that things could not be done that way but, rather, only through
25 appropriate organs that were established for that in accordance with the
1 law and constitution.
2 Q. Did Kolasinac personally present this position to you, that he
3 believed that this was the worst solution?
4 A. Yes, that's what he said. That is the settlement that is there.
5 And, indeed, from all sides, nearby, there were terrorist centres
6 according to what people said; and then Suva Reka, Malisevo, Ostrozub,
7 Dragobilje were nearby and so on.
8 Q. In that same sentence, Mr. Kolasinac says the following: "We
9 appeal for organised protection by our state, the Republic of Serbia."
10 What does that mean?
11 A. He's asking to be protected, Orahovac and the other settlements,
12 in regular ways.
13 Q. And, finally, in the last paragraph, he says: "We hope that we
14 will speedily receive assistance in the form of certain protection forces
15 before it is too late."
16 A. That is correct. However --
17 Q. In that letter, he expresses his fear of an exodus by the
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now, a few moments ago we were saying that it was your obligation
21 to inform Prime Minister Marjanovic about what you found out about as you
22 were travelling and carrying out your coordinating duties. On the basis
23 of this letter and other letters, if there were other letters as well, did
24 you inform Mr. Marjanovic about that, and perhaps someone else as well?
25 A. About this letter, I informed Mr. Marjanovic; however, he told me
1 that he had received the letter and that all measures would be taken, and
2 that I should convey that to Kolasinac.
3 Q. All right.
4 A. I only informed Marjanovic.
5 Q. Mr. Jovanovic, it is generally known - and I hope there will be no
6 objections that I'm leading you - that at that time there was a large
7 group of foreign diplomats present in Kosovo and Metohija, representatives
8 of states and governments, international organisations, humanitarian
9 organisations, and so on and so forth; is that correct?
10 A. It is absolutely correct.
11 Q. What I'm interested in now is the following: Did you meet with
12 any of them?
13 A. Mr. Marjanovic, the prime minister, instructed me subsequently, in
14 terms of Kosovo and Metohija -- or rather, Pristina, to talk to diplomats
15 there, to representatives of humanitarian and non-governmental
16 organisations, and that started from as early as mid-June.
17 I can say --
18 Q. Can you tell us, before we move on to specific persons, what kind
19 of organisations were there, from what countries, that you came across?
20 We'll deal with them individually later.
21 A. In Kosovo and Metohija, there were numerous humanitarian
22 organisations. I can only enumerate the most influential ones. These
23 were the International Committee of the Red Cross, the UNHCR, various
24 other humanitarian organisations which were active there providing aid to
25 the population all over Kosovo and Metohija.
1 Q. Apart from these humanitarian and other organisations, apart from
2 the ones you enumerated, did you have meetings with diplomats and
3 ambassadors of foreign countries who were not involved in humanitarian
5 A. Yes. I had numerous meetings. Let me mention but a few. I
6 talked to Mr. Satak, the deputy Secretary of State of the USA. There was
7 a ten-member team; on two occasions with the deputy Foreign Minister of
8 Russia, Mr. Afasanijevski.
9 Q. Afasanijevski, yes.
10 A. Then I spoke to representatives of the OSCE; to representatives of
11 the European Union; to the ambassadors of England, Germany, France, Italy;
12 numerous representatives stationed there; and then --
13 Q. Does the name of Mr. Dinsberg, Mr. Petritsch, Mr. Pedersen mean
14 anything to you? Did you have meetings with them?
15 A. Yes. I met Mr. Petritsch as many as three times.
16 Q. Go on.
17 A. There were high-ranking representatives of humanitarian
18 organisations, human rights representatives: Margaret O'Keefe, Sadako
19 Ogata, Beatrice Weber, and so on.
20 Q. Ms. Sadako Ogata was from the UN Committee for Human Rights?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. There were three or four delegations a day. What was
23 Mrs. Elizabeth Rehn?
24 A. She was representing the UN on human rights issues.
25 Q. We will have some questions about what they were interested in.
1 First of all, what were they interested in, in connection with the
2 measures concerning citizens when they spoke to you?
3 A. They were all interested in how the Moscow declaration was being
4 implemented. The two presidents, Mr. Yeltsin and Mr. Milosevic, had
5 signed it, and they weren't just interested in as it relates to my sphere
6 of activity; that is, whether displaced persons were returning to their
7 hearths and homes, whether --
8 Q. You'll have to slow down.
9 A. -- whether foodstuffs and other necessities were being provided,
10 medicines and other necessities, what activities were being carried out to
11 repair houses which had been damaged or destroyed, what measures had been
12 adopted or were being planned by the government of the Republic of Serbia
13 with a view to resolving these issues; and other issues as well, for
14 example, something that was not within my competence but it was mentioned
15 by other diplomats.
16 Q. Did they ask for freedom of movement of diplomatic representatives
17 and representatives of humanitarian organisations?
18 A. Yes. They never failed to mention that.
19 Q. And that was within the scope of the Moscow declaration?
20 A. Yes, it was. It may be interesting to say what I said to them.
21 Q. Well, we'll come to that. But to all those questions that were
22 being put, do you know that apart from the Moscow declarations there were
23 certain demands being made by the OSCE, the European Union, the Contact
24 Group, and others? Did they mention those in their talks with you?
25 A. Yes. These demands were of a similar nature, that necessary aid
1 should be provided to people, that humanitarian organisations should be
2 allowed free movement, as should diplomatic representatives.
3 Q. Very well. We have heard what they asked. Now will you tell us
4 what you told them?
5 A. I informed them in detail of the measures being taken by the
6 government of the Republic of Serbia in order to provide for the normal
7 life and work of the population in Kosovo and Metohija.
8 Q. Did you tell them anything about humanitarian aid and who it was
9 being provided to?
10 A. Yes. It was being sent especially to the areas that were at risk
11 and to Kosovo and Metohija. In high-risk areas, we delivered food,
12 supplies for personal hygiene, materials for the repair of damaged houses.
13 I told them that we were making it possible for refugees to return to
14 their homes. We were providing them with free transportation.
15 And the government of the Republic of Serbia more than once
16 publicly expressed its standpoint that people should go back to their
17 hearths and homes, and this was being done, in fact.
18 Q. There was any discrimination when humanitarian aid was being
19 distributed? Was it, for example, given to members of the SPS or to Serbs
21 A. No. There was no discrimination at all. I visited those areas,
22 and I did not see any discrimination. Had I seen it, I would have
23 protested vehemently. Those were my instructions, and I would also have
24 done it because I'm human, but those were my instructions.
25 Q. Were you a member of the SPS?
1 A. No. I was not a member of any party.
2 Q. You became a member of the government as a non-party person?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did you tell them that the government of Serbia was providing free
6 A. Yes, I did, especially in the case of humanitarian organisations.
7 They were the ones who spoke to me more. The diplomats only did so in
8 formal talks. But we invested enormous efforts to make sure that the
9 humanitarian aid that arrived from any organisation should reach its
10 destined goal. Sometimes there were hitches, sometimes it would be held
11 up for a few hours, but we always managed to remove any obstacles through
12 the competent authorities.
13 Q. Did you acquaint the foreign diplomats and representatives of the
14 humanitarian organisations with the problems you spoke about earlier, in
15 connection with the letter by Mr. Kolasinac, about persons who were
16 kidnapped or imprisoned?
17 A. That was not my task. As regards the security situation, that was
18 not my task; but, in my conversations, of course, I did mention terrorist
19 activities in general. But as regards the persons who had been kidnapped
20 or abducted, I regularly mentioned that even if they didn't ask me about
21 it, because that was a very problem.
22 I did not think when I went to visit Kosovo and Metohija that that
23 would be a major preoccupation of mine; however, it became that as a
24 result of the onslaught, so to speak, of the parents and relatives of
25 persons who had been kidnapped or abducted. There were 2 or 300 such
1 cases while I was there; and in various places, I had over ten meetings.
2 These were very unpleasant conversations, because those relatives
3 went so far as to issue threats. They said, "If they can kidnap my
4 father, my brother, my son, why don't you let us do the same?" And I told
5 them that the official organs were doing their job, that I was telling all
6 this to the foreign diplomats and humanitarian representatives who were
7 there, and that they were all promising that the problem would be solved.
8 However, it always came to nothing, their promises.
9 Q. Thank you. So the result of all your talks was meager. Nothing
11 A. Well, there were no results because none of these people ever came
12 back, and only now has it come to light or is it coming to light that they
13 were killed.
14 Q. We'll now talk about humanitarian aid, because that's an issue
15 here. You said more than once that you were involved in creating the
16 conditions for humanitarian aid to reach its goal. How was this done?
17 What did this look like?
18 A. Well, the humanitarian organisations brought aid in large
19 quantities. I think a lot of effort was invested by them, but we also, as
20 the government of the Republic of Serbia, and others, for example,
21 companies and others, brought in aid. It was our wish that all areas
22 where aid was needed be covered, and the humanitarian organisations also
23 were concerned about that, especially the ICRC and the UNHCR. We
24 harmonised our work with them.
25 When distributing aid, if there were temporarily displaced
1 persons, especially in inaccessible places, the problems were more
2 serious. There were places where we couldn't go, and then the
3 humanitarian organisations took aid to those places. They took the most
4 necessary things there.
5 Q. I didn't understand. When you were unable to act, they did. What
6 does that mean? Can you explain that?
7 A. Well, there were certain areas where objectively, because of the
8 terrorists, we could not go; for example, Djeravica towards the border
9 with Albania. It's up in the mountains above Junik. At the end of June,
10 there was a group there. It was established that there were 2 or 3.000
11 people there, but there were about 300 in fact. And for three days, we
12 negotiated with the UNHCR and Mr. Vargas who persistently wanted aid to be
13 taken there.
14 Well, we wanted that also. It was our proposal, for reasons of
15 security, that it should go via Decani, but he insisted it should go via
16 Junik for reasons of his own. And in the end, simply to make sure that
17 those people received aid, we said, "All right, go via Junik." But we
18 could not guarantee freedom of movement there because at that time that
19 area was, so to say, occupied by the terrorists. It was under their
20 control, to put it quite simply.
21 There were other areas as well. At a later stage, we set up
22 humanitarian centres in the areas most at risk, in the municipalities.
23 And we even agreed with some of the humanitarian organisations that they
24 should inject part of their goods into these humanitarian centres, and
25 this was very good for the restoration of confidence and for bringing
1 people closer together, because in those centres it everybody received
2 aid, Serbs, Albanians, Turks, Roma.
3 And the humanitarian centre in Orahovac was especially successful.
4 It was visited more than once by foreign diplomatic representatives and
5 delegations. I visited it two or three times, and I can say that it
6 worked really well. They provided glass for windows that had been
7 shattered in the terrorist and anti-terrorist activities, building
8 materials for the repair of houses, and so on.
9 Q. Did you inform those organisations of the fact that we were having
10 problems with kidnapped persons? And were only Serbs kidnapped or were
11 there others as well?
12 A. Of course, I informed everybody. That was what I was supposed to
13 do, and I believed it necessary to do just that, to talk to everyone and
14 tell them about these problems and to try to do something about the
15 problems, in the hope of bringing someone back at least, so that hope
16 might be given to others, too. Unfortunately, everybody agreed that the
17 problem was there, that it was quite a pronounced problem and a painful
18 one in purely human terms.
19 We even went as far as to offer an exchange to be organised
20 through the mediation of diplomats who would have been in a position to
21 deal with the other side; however, we weren't successful in this.
22 Q. Everything that you've been telling us about, all these things,
23 who was it that you informed about these things?
24 A. My line of reporting went straight to the prime minister of the
25 Republic of Serbia and him alone. As for humanitarian issues, I would
1 sometimes inform our commission, the republican Commission for Refugees,
2 which existed at the time and operated.
3 In Kosovo and Metohija, there were refugees from the Krajina
4 region and Bosnia, about 13.000 of those, if I remember correctly, and
5 some of those were facing great hardship, too.
6 Q. In view of the situation as you have described it for us, was a
7 body set up to assist those citizens of Kosovo who were at risk, whose
8 situation was precarious at the time, in terms of providing them with
10 A. In view of the fact how complex the distribution of supplies was
11 to people in Kosovo and Metohija, at the level of the Republic of Serbia,
12 headquarters were set up for distributing supplies to the people in Kosovo
13 and Metohija.
14 In parallel, a provincial centre was set up as well as supply
15 centres throughout the districts and municipalities. As for the
16 republican headquarters, there was the Minister for Domestic Trade of
17 Yugoslavia, Mr. Miskovic; the Minister of Agriculture of the Republic of
18 Serbia, Mr. Babovic; some deputy ministers; and from Kosovo, we had Ratko
19 Jocic, who was president of the supply centre in Kosovo and Metohija. The
20 presidents throughout the districts were the head of districts; and in
21 municipalities, the presidents of the respective municipalities.
22 The headquarters had the task of making sure that there would be
23 sufficient supplies to distribute throughout Kosovo and Metohija. I, too,
24 was involved in the work of the headquarters, the central office, so to
25 speak, and we had three different aspects.
1 Q. What about the headquarters? Were there people there involved
2 with health, with construction, that sort of thing?
3 A. Yes, of course. Deputies or assistants.
4 Q. Deputy or assistant ministers, you mean?
5 A. Yes, that's right.
6 Q. You were involved in the work of the headquarters; right?
7 A. Yes, the central office. But whenever I could, I also went to
8 meetings of the provincial headquarters.
9 Q. Where were the meetings held?
10 A. In Pristina, those of the central office. Sometimes two or three
11 times there were meetings in Belgrade, and sometimes in the various
12 districts depending on the problems that arose.
13 Q. What was the principal objective of the headquarters at the
14 central office?
15 A. To make sure there were sufficient supplies for a normal life and
16 to keep everything operational.
17 Q. Which supplies, specifically?
18 A. Foodstuffs above all; specifically, flour, oil, sugar, meat. The
19 basic necessities; potatoes, beans, that sort of thing. The basic
20 necessities to feed people. Also --
21 Q. Thank you. And these were distributed, too, to everyone alike?
22 A. Yes. It was for the entire population. Humanitarian aid was
23 distributed free of charge. These were human rights supplies as they
24 called them, and special funds were set apart for that, and special
25 supplies within the headquarters.
1 Q. What types of supplies were there?
2 A. We had three different types: Humanitarian supplies, free of
3 charge, and this sort was dispatched to areas that were at risk and
4 distributed to refugees, people who were without their homes
5 provisionally, and also to those who were socially disenfranchised.
6 There were the so-called intervention shipments, and these dealt
7 with supplies that did not abound at the time. That's what everybody
8 needed: Oil, beans, flour, meat, that sort of thing.
9 Q. So who did that go to?
10 A. These shipments used the normal routes used by goods for the
11 purposes of trade, but these commodities were sometimes taken from the
12 state reserves. So there had to be an intervention, in a manner of
13 speaking, by the state to supplement these supplies.
14 Q. And the third type?
15 A. And the third type was commercial supplies, commercial supplies
16 following the mechanisms of the market. However, the important thing here
17 was the whole thing was organised. The state took matters into its own
18 hands in order to avoid shady situations which sometimes occur in this
19 sort context.
20 There were companies that were in charge of this, and these
21 companies were closely watched. There were inspection teams monitoring
22 the whole process. There was an agriculture inspection team, there was a
23 health inspection team, and a trade inspection team; the health
24 inspection, because they were dealing with medications, too.
25 Q. If I understand you correctly, there were three aspects to this:
1 The first being humanitarian aid shipments, free for all, right?
2 A. Yes, free for all, everyone alike. All those who were in need:
3 Displaced persons; people in a socially inferior position, and those who
4 had simply run out of food. Food has sometimes gone stale -- gone stale
5 and rotten in people's homes which they had to leave behind because of the
6 operations of the terrorists. That's how it worked.
7 Humanitarian aid shipments were dispatched through these
8 humanitarian aid centres later on, but our Yugoslav Red Cross also was
9 concerned with this, where the state was concerned; then also
10 international humanitarian organisations who had a lot of influence on
11 bringing the supply situation in Kosovo and Metohija back to normal.
12 Q. So you can confirm that it was distributed to everyone with no
13 discrimination whatsoever?
14 A. Yes. No question about that. All those who were in need.
15 Q. The other two aspects of supplies, the commercial type, for
16 example, how was that secured? How did you make sure that people got it
17 at the right price, at a fair price?
18 A. The whole procedure was closely watched by inspection teams. Very
19 often, the supplies came from the state's commodity reserves, and there
20 were organisations that were authorised to deal with the flow of goods.
21 Payments were made based on these commodity reserves and also to other
22 companies, and this worked smoothly.
23 The danger was looming that the market might be unsettled. Some
24 people, for example, could have taken more of the goods in order to resell
25 them the next day. We stood in the way of this sort of practice, and this
1 greatly enhanced the entire process.
2 Q. Based on your own assessment on the functioning of these various
3 headquarters from the central office to the ground level, the municipal
4 ones, what would that assessment be?
5 A. Everything worked smoothly given the circumstances that prevailed.
6 I'm quite happy with their work. They met their objectives. They met all
7 the goals that they had been established for.
8 Q. Sir, let us dwell on this for a minute. Let us try to zoom in on
9 a detail that we have not discussed so far. We talked about the
10 objections being raised by various diplomats and about how you worked in
11 order to make sure that the state administration worked properly and that
12 humanitarian aid reached its destination.
13 You would agree with me, though, wouldn't you that there was
14 shooting in Kosovo throughout; right? There were all sorts of problems.
15 That's why I'm asking you this.
16 What about these foreign diplomats? When they came to speak to
17 you, and you told us about that, did they ever underline any concerns they
18 might have had about possible crimes in Kosovo? Could you tell us
19 anything about that, sir, regarding any of the sides, not just this side.
20 Not just the KLA.
21 A. It is true that these problems, the problems of looting, on all
22 sides, were mentioned. And this was happening throughout Kosovo and
23 Metohija, and this is one of the concerns that were being underlined.
24 Q. To all practical intents, what did they tell you?
25 A. That there was a lot of looting all over the place --
1 Q. Now, now --
2 A. -- that crime was rife throughout the area: Looting, threats
3 being made, incidents, punch-ups, that sort of thing.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Sorry. To be clear about this, you're being asked
5 about things that foreign diplomats told you. You would surely be aware
6 of these things without a diplomat having to tell you about them, local
7 crime and looting. I don't think that's what Mr. Fila's asking about.
8 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] No, no, no. We have been speaking
9 about the fact that diplomats were asking questions about humanitarian aid
10 and everything else, safe passage, how the agreement was being
11 implemented. So did they tell him anything about what they themselves had
12 learned on the ground in terms of various crimes being committed, such as
13 murder, robbery, looting. Did they ask him to provide information on that
14 sort of thing. That's what I'm asking.
15 Q. Did they at any point tell you about this, and did they seek
16 information from you?
17 JUDGE BONOMY: That's a particularly leading question you've
18 asked, and it must inevitably affect the value of the answer, but let's
19 hear what the witness can tell us about it.
20 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I'm trying to hurry things along.
21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The interpreter did not
22 understand Mr. Fila.
23 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I said my apologies for this leading
24 question. However, the way the trial has been going so far, it was clear
25 that this would happen. All I'm trying to do is to economise in terms of
2 Let's try again.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: I can't let that go without commenting. There is
4 no reason why the way in which the trial has been going should lead to
5 unnecessary leading questions.
6 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Fair enough. My apologies then.
7 Q. During those talks, in addition to safe passage, unrestricted
8 access, and humanitarian aid, were there any other subjects being raised
9 by these diplomats in terms of what was happening in Kosovo throughout
10 your time there, the period between June and September?
11 A. They wanted to know about a whole lot of different things. I was
12 in charge of certain things and I knew about certain things, and those
13 were the subjects that I discussed with them, and I provided specific
15 There were questions raised sometimes in relation to which I was
16 unable to provide complete answers. Specifically, when talking about
17 displaced persons, humanitarian aid, unrestricted movement, distribution
18 of humanitarian aid, kidnappings, abductions, there were permanent answers
19 being provided and requests by me for them to help us deal with that.
20 Q. What about beyond all of this? Did they notice anything else?
21 Did they enjoy unrestricted movement throughout Kosovo and Metohija,
22 humanitarian organisations and diplomats alike?
23 A. Yes. Unrestricted movement was guaranteed and security to
24 diplomats and humanitarian organisations. On the whole I think I can say
25 that I think this worked well. There were sporadic problems, needless to
1 say, but my general assessment would be that things worked smoothly in
2 that respect.
3 Q. All right. Did they warn you at any point? Did they inform you?
4 Did they tell you that anything was happening that wasn't good, that
5 anything was happening that would run counter to the normal functioning of
6 a country?
7 A. My talks with them went in all sorts of directions. They asked
8 their own questions. What they wanted to know, I answered. We discussed
9 all sorts of issues. Of course, that's the sort of talks that we had.
10 And given the sort of problems that were there, there were different kinds
11 of questions being raised. Some asked questions about this and some about
12 that. I talked about matters of general interest, and this is the sort of
13 thing that I normally told them about.
14 Q. Did they ever mention the fact that, as they were moving about,
15 they actually noticed specific crimes being committed, such as, for
16 example, looting, murder, perhaps? Did they tell you anything about that?
17 Did they seek information from you about any of these things?
18 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I object. He's hinted about murders
19 three times now, and he hasn't got the answer yet. I think anything he
20 gets now is not going to helpful.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I think, in view of the way he has approached
22 it so far, he's entitled to be more specific, Mr. Hannis. So let's hear
23 the answer is to that question.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were such questions; namely,
25 that looting should be prevented, improper conduct. That was absolutely
1 the case.
2 Q. Was that the question?
3 A. It was the answer, too.
4 Q. Just slow down. Sir, could you just wait a second. Wait for the
5 letters to stop appearing on the screen, and then start answering.
6 You told us that there were such questions. Right. Now, my
7 question is as follows - wait for it to come out and then this answer -
8 what did you do, if anything, in order to check such claims? Was that
9 really going on, these things that they were telling you about?
10 A. I expressed my interest. I expressed my interest through my own
11 lines of communication; that is to say, through presidents of
12 municipalities and others. And I can say that there were various gangs
13 that were involved in stealing, looting, also some more serious things in
14 terms of jeopardising the property, safety of citizens. Usually, it was
15 village gangs that were at each other's throats, and that was dealt with
16 judiciously. I was telling people, I was saying, "People, see to this,
17 see that it is eliminated, that this goes away."
18 Q. Did you ask the five district heads?
19 A. Of course, I did. I asked them, too. I can also say that I
20 talked to --
21 Q. Slowly, slowly answer my questions. You -- your answer was that
22 you asked them, too, then?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Sir, what was their reply to you when you asked them? Did this
25 kind of thing happen in their districts, the things that we've been
1 talking about -- or rather, that foreign representatives talked about?
2 A. Their reply was that there were such individual cases but that
3 these were people from the sphere of crime who tried to take advantage of
4 this difficult situation for their own objectives; that is to say, for
5 attaining their own dishonourable objectives, but that they were held
6 responsible and that they were handed over to relevant prosecution
7 authorities; most of them, that is, as many as possible.
8 Q. The building where you stayed in Pristina, was the army there or
9 the police or who was in that building? The building where those
10 headquarters of yours were.
11 A. I lived in the corps building.
12 Q. What corps?
13 A. Well, the corps of the army of Yugoslavia; the 3rd Corps, the
14 Pristina Corps.
15 Q. Just take it slowly. While you stayed there, did you come across
16 military men, and who was it at that, if you saw them at all.
17 A. Of course. Since I lived, there I encountered officers,
18 commissioned and non-commissioned; and in the immediate vicinity, there
19 was internal affairs, too, so I saw them.
20 Q. Slowly. I'm asking you about officers.
21 A. Yes, I saw that.
22 Q. Did you know who the commander of the 3rd Army was at the time?
23 A. When I was there, General Samardzic was commander of the 3rd Army.
24 Q. Did you see him, too?
25 A. I encountered him two or three times.
1 Q. Mr. Milosavljevic, as for General Samardzic, did you ask him about
2 this information that you were receiving from diplomats, what we've been
3 discussing so far? Now, slowly. So I mean about what was going on in the
4 field, things that run counter to criminal codes. And if you asked him
5 about these things, can you tell us what it was that he answered?
6 A. He expressed his interest by the way in the work that I was
7 dealing with, and then we discussed broader subjects as well, including
8 these issues even. We had similar assessments, almost identical
9 assessments; namely, that such things were happening and that this should
10 be prevented energetically, which was indeed being done within the scope
11 of the possibilities that existed at the time.
12 Q. Mr. Milosavljevic, the building that you lived in, was that
13 perhaps the military hotel?
14 A. Well, yes, I lived at the corps. Well, yes, other officers lived
15 there, too.
16 Q. So is this building the corps building or the military hotel
18 A. Well, there's a military hotel, and then the corps was nearby,
19 staying right there, nearby.
20 Q. At this hotel?
21 A. It's not a hotel. It's the corps building, a big building. I
22 lived there.
23 Q. In that building?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And others?
1 A. Other officers lived there, too. And the commander of the corps
2 lived there in that building as well.
3 Q. That was?
4 A. General Pavkovic.
5 Q. And near you, near your building, near this building where you
6 lived, regardless of whether it's a hotel or the corps or whatever, was
7 there a police headquarters there? Let me put it that way.
8 A. In the immediate vicinity, there was the MUP building. I don't
9 know exactly how many metres away, but it wasn't far away.
10 Q. All right. Did you encounter members of the MUP of Serbia?
11 A. I did.
12 Q. Now, did you ask them, too -- or rather, did you talk to them,
13 too, in order to obtain information or to check what the foreign diplomats
14 were telling you about?
15 A. I talked to them as well. I also had policemen from the area
16 where I was born. So I asked them about the situation there, and they
17 were telling me that such things were happening, but they didn't have any
18 special information because everybody there was doing their own work. And
19 it is only natural that these crimes had been registered, and they were
20 reported in order for proceedings to take place.
21 Q. Thank you. As for these objection raised by diplomats and
22 foreigners, and as for the results of your own investigations, if I can
23 call it that way, your talks with the heads of districts and the
24 presidents of municipalities, did you inform Prime Minister Marjanovic
25 about that, and someone else perhaps?
1 A. As for this, as well as other matters, I informed the prime
2 minister, Mirko Marjanovic, only, because that is what has been agreed
3 upon; although, I should say quite only, that this was not my own line of
4 work, and this was not the subject matter that I dealt with. But I
5 thought it was serious problem, and I thought I should inform the prime
6 minister in order for appropriate measures to be tank. I did not talk to
7 others, and it was not my own like of work, but I assume -- well,
8 everybody has their own work and is in charge of the work he does.
9 Q. What did Mr. Marjanovic say to you, if anything, when you reported
10 about these things and the results that you had reached, if you remember.
11 A. Prime Minister Marjanovic said to me that I should particularly
12 pay attention to the work that I was in charge of; and in addition to
13 that, if I have any other information, it would be well come because it
14 can assist the work of other organs.
15 Q. All right. Now, let us go back to your own work now. Could you
16 describe to us what this humanitarian situation in Kosovo and Metohija was
17 like? But before you start answering, could you please look at 2D3382.
18 Study it slowly, and then we'll discuss it. 2D382 is the number,
19 actually. It's the last document.
20 A. May I?
21 Q. Well, I'm going to ask you. Can you -- what is this? What
22 document is this?
23 A. This is --
24 Q. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. All right. In the upper
25 right-hand corner.
1 A. This is a press statement of the Secretary for Information of the
2 autonomous province of Kosovo and Metohija, dated the 27th of August,
3 1999. After talks were conducted by Mr. Veljko Odalovic, the chief of the
4 Kosovo district, and myself, with the assistant of the Secretary of State
5 to the United States of America, Mrs. Taft, and the chief of the American
6 mission in Belgrade --
7 Q. Richard Miles?
8 A. -- Mr. Richard Miles, who were visiting Kosovo and Metohija with
9 their associates, on that day.
10 Q. And what does paragraph 2 indicate?
11 A. Paragraph 2 indicates --
12 Q. Slowly, slowly.
13 A. Paragraph 2 indicates that: "As per the resolution of
14 humanitarian questions, what is expected is the full engagement of
15 international humanitarian organisations ..." --
16 Q. Slowly.
17 A. -- "... and that with the help of the Yugoslav Red Cross and state
18 organs, they need to support all the efforts made by the Republic of
19 Serbia in this area."
20 Q. What was the assessment of the work done to date?
21 A. It was emphasised that cooperation to date had been good.
22 Q. I see --
23 MR. HANNIS: I see in the transcript, the answer refers it as
24 being a document the 27th of August, 1999. I know the English translation
25 says 1999, but my B/C/S version says 1998, and I think we need to clear up
1 which year we're talking about.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: I was assuming the B/C/S was the accurate document.
3 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Eight. 1998.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, it is 1998. It's fairly obvious it couldn't
5 be 1999.
6 MR. HANNIS: I wouldn't have spoken except the answer got
7 translated as 1999.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. Please continue, Mr. Fila.
9 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]
10 Q. How was the cooperation to date assessed? Wait. Wait.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: That question has already been answered, and you --
12 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Oh, all right, is sorry.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: -- were proceeding to another question.
14 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Now, what is it that you emphasised there?
16 A. On that occasion, I pointed out that, in accordance with the
17 Moscow declaration by Presidents Milosevic and Yeltsin, free movement was
18 made possible for all diplomatic and humanitarian missions in all
19 directions in Kosovo and Metohija, and that all problems that might arise
20 were being eliminated through intervention.
21 Q. And what did you express then?
22 A. I also informed the American diplomats about the establishment of
23 11 humanitarian posts in the territory of the province up until then.
24 Q. Did you stress the problem of the abducted?
25 A. You're asking me -- yes. I stressed the problem of citizens who
1 had been abducted by terrorists, and I expressed great dissatisfaction
2 with the resolving of those problems, and I asked for a new assistance and
3 cooperation of all, including international humanitarian organisations.
4 Q. What about Mr. Odalovic, Chief Odalovic?
5 A. He talked about activities and measures that the Republic of
6 Serbia and the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia were taking so that the
7 civilian population, which had, due to terrorist activity as well as
8 various separatist groups and gangs, been forced to leave their homes.
9 Q. And what was asked for? What was explained? What were the state
10 organs doing?
11 A. State organs were doing -- were taking all measures in order to
12 take care of the population, to provide construction material, food
13 supplies, and so on.
14 Q. All right. Last question from this set of questions is whether
15 these diplomats had any objections in respect of any of the things you
16 asserted, or did they accept it that way at that meeting?
17 A. As far as I can remember, there weren't any objections.
18 Q. Thank you very much.
19 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I think that this would be an
20 appropriate moment in view of the time.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Milosavljevic, we have to break again at this
22 stage. This time for half an hour. Would you please go with the usher.
23 [The witness stands down].
24 JUDGE BONOMY: We shall resume at 10 to 1.00.
25 --- Recess taken at 12.20 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 12.50 p.m.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Fila.
3 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we were told that the
4 system is down. That's why I was not dressed on time, and my colleagues
5 are telling me I cannot work, but I don't understand anything about these
7 JUDGE BONOMY: I think you and I together will be good enough to
8 take them on, Mr. Fila. The question is whether we need it at any stage,
9 and that will depend on how the exhibits are to be dealt with.
10 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I don't.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: I think you've dealt with your exhibits now.
12 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I have.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Then please proceed.
14 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Excellent. Thank you.
15 Q. You have looked at that exhibit. We won't need it any more. Now
16 I will ask you, based on what you have read and everything you have said
17 so far, to give us an overview of the humanitarian situation in Kosovo and
18 Metohija throughout the period of your stay there, June 1998 to September
19 1998, an overview by municipality.
20 A. The humanitarian situation in Kosovo and Metohija existed from the
21 first to the last day. These problems were solved successfully in spite
22 of certain difficulties; however, a general assessment might be that the
23 problems were solved successfully. They were so successful owing to the
24 concern of the government of Serbia, the municipal organs, and other
25 organs as well as companies, which provided necessities, staple foods,
1 building materials.
2 And let me point out that a vast amount of help arrived from
3 international humanitarian organisations, which, as far as I could tell -
4 and I did participate in those talks and in all the work that went on -
5 made a huge contribution to solving these problems.
6 We managed to improve the situation in terms of organisation
7 also. Because at a certain stage, we established humanitarian centres in
8 the municipalities and villages which were most at risk. Up to September,
9 14, these had been established, and I visited these humanitarian centres;
10 that is, the ones in Orahovac, Decani, Klina, Djakovica, and also in some
11 villages. There was one in Junik, one in Istinic, and so on, and I've
12 already mentioned Orahovac.
13 In my view, these were very good places, because goods,
14 foodstuffs, building materials, glass for windows was received there by
15 all citizens. I visited the one in Orahovac, and there was one person
16 from the Red Cross, one from the centre for social work. And we did our
17 best to have people from the local self-administration there, both Serbs
18 and Albanians wherever possible; for example, in Orahovac, it worked
19 really well. I was there one day when humanitarian aid was being
20 distributed to all citizens, including Roma, Albanians, Serbs, and others.
21 They took glass panes for glazing their houses. They took foodstuffs,
22 everything they needed.
23 Q. Was the humanitarian situation the same in municipalities where
24 there was no KLA activity as in those where there was such activity?
25 A. The humanitarian situation in the municipalities where there were
1 no terrorist activities practically did not exist. Aid was distributed to
2 those citizens who had arrived there, moved there on a temporary basis
3 because they were displaced; otherwise, part of Kosovo functioned
4 normally. In places where, there were many displaced persons
5 accommodated, and they were mostly concentrated in towns. There was some
6 in Montenegro, and a small number in Albania. That's the displaced
7 persons who had been driven away from their hearth and home because of
8 terrorist activity. And I can even say that in areas under KLA control,
9 even there humanitarian aid was delivered.
10 For the most part, most of these international humanitarian
11 organisations did that; and here and there, it was our Red Cross working
12 on that task. There were enough goods. The commodity reserves always
13 intervened when it was impossible to get goods from other sources. And
14 it's also interesting to mention, with respect to these humanitarian
15 centres, that international humanitarian organisations participated in
16 those with some of their goods.
17 And this was very good for confidence building, helping people
18 understand that things were changing for the better. And I have to say
19 that, in September, the situation was consolidated to a great extent.
20 Q. Thank you. That would be a summary of your stay there as regards
21 humanitarian issues while you were in Kosovo; is that correct?
22 A. Yes, of course. One can't go into every detail. There would be a
23 lot of that.
24 Q. Well, maybe you could write your memoirs. Every general before
25 this Court has written at least one book?
1 MR. HANNIS: I object, Your Honour, that's not true. General
2 Naumann has not written a book.
3 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] That's right.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Not on this subject.
5 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Well, now let's move on, and we will talk about Mr. Sainovic.
7 That will be our last topic. Do you know Mr. Sainovic? Since when have
8 you known him, and what do you know about him?
9 A. I have known Mr. Sainovic since the 1980s. He worked in the
10 mining and foundry complex in Bor, and he was one of the leaders there,
11 one of the head people. He was also the president of Bor municipality,
12 and I was president of a neighbouring municipality, Zagubica. We
13 cooperated very often because many people from my municipality, which was
14 very poor, worked in the Bor basin.
15 Also, I knew Mr. Sainovic and continued cooperating with him after
16 he went to Belgrade, where he became Minister of Mining and Energy. And
17 in the 1990s, he was also the prime minister of the Republic of Serbia.
18 Later on, he was deputy prime minister of the federal government, and I
19 knew him then also because we worked together on certain tasks of common
20 interest for our native area.
21 Q. Mr. Sainovic -- in Kosovo and Metohija in the course of the 1980s,
22 when you were there, did you see Mr. Sainovic there?
23 A. Yes. I would see Mr. Sainovic in Kosovo in the period from July,
24 early July, approximately, to the end of September when I left Kosovo and
1 Q. Did you meet him there? Did you know what he was doing there?
2 How did you find that out?
3 A. I met him in Pristina in early July 1998, and I was told that he
4 was coming to Kosovo and Metohija by the prime minister. Several days
5 before his arrival, the prime minister told me that Mr. Sainovic was
6 coming to Kosovo, and that I should apply to him whenever I was dealing
7 with the foreign affairs or talks with diplomats, because he had been
8 delegated to be in charge of those tasks by the cabinet.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Which --
10 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] There is an error in the transcript.
11 There's an error in the transcript. It says 1980; it should say 1998.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: That's been corrected.
13 Which prime minister told you this?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The prime minister of Serbia. My
15 prime minister who delegated me. He told me that on the phone.
16 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]
17 Q. What do you know about Nikola Sainovic's tasks while he was in
18 Kosovo and Metohija?
19 A. He told me this himself, and I also learned it from the prime
20 minister of the Republic of Serbia. He was in charge of foreign policy,
21 of talks with foreign diplomatic representatives in Kosovo and Metohija.
22 He was in charge of coordinating all that, because I have to say, and I've
23 already pointed this out, at that time there were numerous diplomats in
24 Kosovo and Metohija.
25 The place was teeming with various ambassadors, ministers,
1 diplomats, lower-ranking diplomats, various missions from the European
2 Union. There was the European troika.
3 Q. And you who were there and the local authorities, were you able to
4 deal with foreign policy affairs independently?
5 A. Before going to Kosovo and Metohija, as a municipal president, I
6 had had the opportunity of meeting several ambassadors, but I didn't have
7 much experience with foreign diplomats. So, when in Kosovo and Metohija,
8 I was tasked with talking to foreign diplomats on various issues. This
9 was quite difficult for me, so I welcomed the arrival of Mr. Sainovic, as
10 we were acquaintances.
11 I found this very useful, and I took the liberty of asking him to
12 tell me about his experiences in that area, and I can tell you that I
13 welcomed his assistance in my work.
14 Q. Could one say that you exchanged information?
15 A. Yes, we did. I told him about the work I was doing, so that he
16 could make use of what I told him in his talks that he held. I asked him
17 to help me concerning certain issues. I was insufficiently familiar with,
18 I didn't understand sufficiently, and this helped me in those
20 Q. During your stay in Kosovo, June, July, August, and September, did
21 you hear any mention of a body called a "Joint Command"?
22 A. No. While I was in Kosovo and Metohija, I never heard the term.
23 Later on, when the trial of Milosevic began, I read that somewhere in the
24 papers, in the press, and I heard it in various conversations. People
25 asked me what it was, and I would say, "Well, I don't know." I'd never
1 heard of it before.
2 Q. Do you know that in Kosovo and Metohija, in the summer of 1998,
3 there were also some representatives of the Socialist Party of Serbia,
4 that there were various state and political structures there, and that
5 they had joint meetings?
6 A. Yes, I know about that. On behalf of the Socialist Party of
7 Serbia - I am not sure precisely when, but I think around mid-July - a
8 three-member team arrived: Milomir Minic, Dusan Matkovic, and
9 Andjelovic --
10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Zoran Andjelkovic.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were in the SPS building, but
12 they also used the premises of the regional organs for certain talks they
13 had with various structures and with citizens.
14 I know that Dusan Matkovic was tasked with helping the economy by
15 making suggestion and so on, because he was the managing director of
16 Sartid in Smederevo, and he had a lot of experience in that area. And in
17 view of some work I had done on the economy in Kosovo and Metohija, I
18 worked in coordination with him. We discussed certain issues of
19 personnel, especially when there were companies that were in difficulties
20 of any kind, whether financial difficulties or difficulties in production.
21 I know that Zoran Andjelkovic was a party activist who travelled a
22 lot on the ground, and he also received certain parties for talks.
23 As for Milomir Minic, he dealt with party work. He held meetings,
24 attended meetings, consultations and so on, and he was there, too.
25 They worked both in the SPS building and in the regional premises
1 where they received people who came to see them. I also saw other
2 representatives at meetings held now and then in these buildings. There
3 were also individual representatives of the state organs such as --
4 Q. Did you attend any such meetings?
5 A. I did not attend such meetings, because my method of work was
6 mostly visiting on the ground. I had my own methods and my own ways of
7 getting information, so I felt no need of attending such meetings.
8 Q. Did Mr. Sainovic have any influence on your work as the
9 coordinator of the work of state organs, or did you influence his work?
10 A. No. Neither did he influence my work, nor did I influence his.
11 We cooperated as colleagues. We consulted one another. We had coffee
12 together. We had drinks together. We may even have had lunch once or
14 Q. You told us that back in 1998 you saw certain military and police
15 officers there. Do you know what it looked like back in 1998? How was
16 the army being commanded, and what about the police, and who was in charge
17 of what?
18 A. I'm not privy to any detail, but I happen to be a reserve officer
19 myself, and I know that the command in the army of Yugoslavia was strictly
20 in keeping with the chain of command. There was strict observance of
21 orders from superiors at their respective levels, and the same things
22 applies to the police force.
23 As it happens, the Minister of the Interior, Zlatko [as
24 interpreted] Stojiljkovic, happens to be from my native area. We hail
25 from the same area, and we talked about things sometimes, and once he told
1 me that they were making sure in the police force that there was strict
2 observance of the chain of command from him on down.
3 Q. My last question to you, Mr. Milosavljevic. You may be -- you
4 might as well start speaking very fast now, this being the last question.
5 I won't be getting at you for that.
6 Can you tell us something about Sainovic as a politician and an
7 economist, since you've known him for quite a long time?
8 A. This sort of thing is difficult to put in words, but I think he's
9 an excellent businessman, an excellent economist. As for him as a
10 politician, I find it difficult to say anything about that, but I think he
11 did a good job on the whole.
12 Sainovic is a person who throughout his career, throughout his
13 life, made intense efforts in all sorts of things. He wanted to create
14 new companies, to employ people, to create new jobs because there was
15 always a need for something like that to be done. He was highly regarded
16 in his native area and anywhere he worked, and any elections would show
17 that. He would always -- his name was always on the list. He was always
18 nominated. And wherever he happened to be, the results were always
20 The mining and foundry complex of Bor was a huge enterprise, and
21 he earned the respect of everyone, simple workers and leaders alike. He
22 was a man of principle, hard working, honourable. In my view, the kind of
23 person you would like to keep as a friend and you would like to be near.
24 Q. What were his views on a solution for Kosovo and Metohija?
25 A. I talked to him on a number of occasions in Bor and Zagubica, and
1 in Belgrade, too. I know that when he came to Kosovo and Metohija, he
2 advocated a solution by political means. He also advocated the use of the
3 best international and world standards. He said anything should be done
4 to keep the future solution within those perimeters.
5 Q. Thank you very much. I'm sorry for slowing you down all the time.
6 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I will now give the floor to my
7 colleagues and the OTP. Thank you.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Zecevic?
9 MR. ZECEVIC: Line 3, the Minister of Interior, it's not "Zlatko"
10 but "Vlajko." I believe the witness said "Vlajko."
11 Cross-examination by Mr. Zecevic:
12 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Milosavljevic, good afternoon.
13 A. I did say "Vlajko." I may have misspoken. I don't know.
14 Q. No, that's fine. That's fine, sir.
15 I said good afternoon.
16 A. Good afternoon to you. I didn't get it. I'm sorry.
17 Q. Mr. Milosavljevic, you say that you were a minister in the
18 government of the Republic of Serbia between 1994 and 1998; is that right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. The government of the Republic of Serbia, can you tell me this:
21 There were sessions every Sunday, weren't there?
22 A. Normally, once a week. Sometimes, whenever the need arose, there
23 were more sessions than just one.
24 Q. These were on Thursdays for the most part?
25 A. Yes, one a week. But as a rule, it would be a Thursday.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: If you're concerned about the transcript, it's been
2 clarified now that the meetings are on Thursday.
3 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you very much, Your Honour.
4 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Milosavljevic, there was a stenographic
5 record drawn up of each of the government sessions, wasn't there?
6 A. I never wondered about that. I'm not into these technical
7 aspects, but I know that there was always a stenographic record, and there
8 should be one on each and every one of these government meetings.
9 Q. Mr. Milosavljevic, in March 1998 - and we looked at 2D356. This
10 is a document appointing you as coordinator in Kosovo and Metohija - the
11 decision was adopted by Prime Minister Marjanovic. According to that
12 document, if I remember correctly - I'm not sure if we could maybe bring
13 this up in e-court - it was your responsibility to report back to the
14 prime minister, and this is something that you told us about, didn't you?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. So your contacts with the government continued even after March
17 1998, didn't they?
18 A. Yes, of course. I was coordinator for the work of state organs
19 and also the president of the Committee for Establishing Damage Caused by
20 Natural Disasters. Until the very end of my term, which was in the year
21 of 2000, I remained president of that committee.
22 Q. You often travelled back to Belgrade to attend government sessions
23 throughout your time as coordinator back in 1998, while you were in Kosovo
24 and Metohija, did you not?
25 A. I didn't travel back that often, but I did go several times, yes.
1 Q. Were you in touch with the prime minister and the government
2 throughout your time in Kosovo and Metohija?
3 A. Absolutely. At least once a week, at least. At the very least
4 once a week, I would report back to Prime Minister Mirko Marjanovic;
5 sometimes even more frequently by phone. I would give him a ring whenever
6 there was a problem that I needed help one.
7 Q. Mr. Milosavljevic, do you know that the president of Serbia,
8 Milutinovic, in October 1998, informed the government of the Republic of
9 is Serbia about the contents of the Holbrooke-Milosevic agreement? Are
10 you aware of that?
11 A. I read about that in the news papers. I had undergone surgery
12 already at that time.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: He was flat on his back at that time, Mr. Zecevic.
14 Can we get to the point of something that he might have some personal
15 experience of?
16 MR. ZECEVIC: Of course, Your Honours.
17 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Milosavljevic, did you ever see President
18 Milutinovic? Did President Milutinovic attend any of the government
19 sessions that you also attended?
20 A. During my time as a member of the cabinet, Mr. Milutinovic never
21 once attended a government session.
22 Q. Did another member of the cabinet, at any time, perhaps tell you
23 that President Milutinovic had attended any of the government sessions,
24 apart from the one that I specified in October 1998?
25 A. No. I never heard anything like that; and to be perfectly honest,
1 I didn't ask.
2 MR. ZECEVIC: No further questions for this witness.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Mr. Bakrac.
4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I do have
5 several questions about this witness's personal experience.
6 Cross-examination by Mr. Bakrac:
7 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, I'm Mihajlo Bakrac, Attorney at
8 Law. I will ask you questions on behalf of Mr. Lazarevic.
9 First of all, I will have several questions to ask. But before we
10 start, it would be a good idea for us to look at a short video clip.
11 Please, there is no need for you to pay special attention to the comments
12 made by the journalist. Pay attention to the image itself and what's
13 going on.
14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is Defence Exhibit
16 [Videotape played]
17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. That was it, Mr. Milosavljevic. Based on this footage, I would
19 like to ask you a couple of questions now.
20 Did you notice yourself in this recording, among other people?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Do you remember the location of this visit?
23 A. This was in the town of Malisevo.
24 Q. Do you remember when this visit occurred?
25 A. It occurred in mid-August 1998.
1 Q. Can you tell us what the purpose was for this visit to Malisevo in
2 mid-August 1998?
3 A. The purpose of my visit, in the presence of the district of the
4 Prizren -- of the president of the Prizren district, Ms. Furjanovic, the
5 mayor of Pristina, and my assistant Toma Kujundzic, whom you can also see
6 in the footage, was to see what the situation was in humanitarian terms in
7 the town of Malisevo.
8 Complaints had been made about the work of the health unit, in
9 terms of the preparations that were being made and in terms of the
10 operations of the health unit. I went to see for myself what the matter
11 was on that day, and I could reassure myself that things were working
12 relatively smoothly. When I say "smoothly," I mean there was humanitarian
13 aid there. It was stationed there in some warehouses and was in the
14 process of being distributed to its users.
15 The health unit at the time had but a single doctor and a nurse
16 had who would travel there occasionally, and yet preparations were being
17 made to set up an entire health station.
18 Q. Mr. Milosavljevic, one of the OTP's witnesses, Colonel Crosland,
19 in this trial - the transcript reference is 9807, lines 22 and 23 - stated
20 that in July 1998 Malisevo was razed to the ground.
21 So I'm asking you now. You were in Malisevo in August, and we saw
22 that for ourselves. Is it true what Colonel Crosland suggested? Can it
23 be true?
24 A. It is certainly not true. What they say where I come from is:
25 Lies or short-lived. You can see in the footage that some minor damage
1 had occurred, but nothing like that.
2 I personally passed through the centre of town. I crossed.
3 Mirusa River. I drank not a single beer. I actually had two beers. It
4 was a particularly hot day, and everybody who was with me felt the same
5 way about the heat.
6 Q. Mr. Milosavljevic, let me ask you this: Are you aware of the
7 ethnic make-up of the town of Malisevo?
8 A. It was 100 per cent Albanian, which means that the population was
9 100 per cent Albanian. The town numbers about 10.000 inhabitants. It's a
10 lovely place.
11 Q. And my last question for you: Who was this humanitarian aid for
13 A. Our citizens. And in this case, they were Albanians, our Albanian
14 population; some of them in Crni Lug. They took advantage of this
15 humanitarian aid as well.
16 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Milosavljevic. I have no further
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Bakrac.
19 Mr. Hannis.
20 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour. Sorry, I'm having troubles
21 with my microphone. Let me use this one.
22 Cross-examination by Mr. Hannis:
23 Q. Good afternoon, sir. You'll forgive me if I don't pronounce your
24 name correctly. I'm having difficulty with it, Mr. Milosavljevic. In one
25 of the questions earlier by Mr. Fila, he asked you if you were a member of
1 the SPS. And your answer was that no, you were not a member of any party.
2 What time period were you talking about when you answered that
4 A. I was talking about when I was chosen to be a minister in the
5 government of the Republic of Serbia.
6 Q. Were you ever a member of any political party?
7 A. I was a member of the League of Communists of Yugoslavia, and I
8 was expelled from the party, and then I filed a complaint. When the
9 Socialist Party was formed, then this matter was transferred to the
10 archives. So that's it.
11 Q. And from when to when were you a member of the League of
13 A. Until October 1989.
14 Q. And since then you've not been a member of any political party;
15 is that your testimony?
16 MR. HANNIS: Maybe the Defence is back on line, Your Honour, I'm
17 not sure.
18 Q. I'm sorry, sir, I had a little explosion of sound in my
20 Did you hear my question?
21 A. Please repeat it. I didn't hear it because I certainly heard the
22 sound in my headphones, too.
23 Q. My question was: So, since October 1989, you've not been a member
24 of any political party?
25 A. In 1995, I became a member of the Yugoslav Left.
1 Q. And that is a party that's associated with Slobodan Milosevic's
2 wife, Mrs. Markovic, correct, Mira Markovic?
3 A. She was a member of that party, too. That is a fact.
4 Q. Were you one of the founding members of JUL?
5 A. I was one of the members. I did not have any high positions in
6 that party. I was a member of the Main Board.
7 Q. And when did you cease to be a member of JUL?
8 A. I ceased to be a member of JUL in 2000, in the year 2000, towards
9 the end.
10 Q. Have you heard of an organisation, some sort of honourary
11 commission called "Remembrance and Hope"?
12 A. No.
13 Q. I'll have to check the translation. Maybe my English is not good.
14 So, during the time that you were serving as the coordinator in
15 Kosovo you, were a member of JUL; correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Now, you first became a minister in 1995; is that right?
18 A. That is not right. I became a minister on the 21st of March,
20 Q. And what were you minister of at that time?
21 A. I was a minister without portfolio in charge of development,
22 reconstruction, and promoting local self-government.
23 Q. Who selected you or appointed you to that position?
24 A. I was proposed by the prime minister designate, Mirko Marjanovic,
25 and I was selected by the national assembly of the Republic of Serbia.
1 Q. How long did you serve in that position?
2 A. I've already said that. I served a full term from the elections
3 until being relieved from office, for as long as the term of the Serbian
4 Assembly was valid.
5 Q. Could you give me a date for that?
6 A. Date? I may make a mistake in day or two. The 21st of March,
7 1994, the 24th of March, 1998.
8 Q. I also understood that you sort of served as a Minister for
9 Refugees; is that not correct?
10 A. I was not Minister for Refugees. I was Minister for Religious
11 Affairs from September 1997 until the 24th of March, 1998, because the
12 previous minister had joined the ranks of ambassadors, and then I was
13 supposed to replace him until the term expired.
14 Q. And what does the -- what does the Minister for Religious Affairs
16 A. The Minister for Religious Affairs maintains relations with church
17 organs; carries out administrative work in relation to churches, all
18 denominations; maintains contacts with the representatives of all
19 religious communities; channels from an administrative point various
20 activities in terms of legislative activity, laws, and so on.
21 In order for that to be able to function, I also dealt with issues
22 pertaining to the return of property that had been taken away from the
23 churches in 1945 and after that. Of course, I had these contacts. And
24 during this period of time, I saw the patriarch three times, and several
25 times I met with bishops; mostly with the Bishop of Kragujevac, then the
1 Bishop of Sabac, the Bishop of Pozarevac, the Bishop of Zica, the Bishop
2 of Nis, and so on.
3 Q. When you took up those duties, what happened to the work you'd
4 been doing regarding development reconstruction and promoting local
5 self-government. Did you continue to do that job, or did someone take
6 over your old job?
7 A. I did both; but in the meantime, a minister for local
8 self-government was established, and I had less work in that area. So I
9 was disburdened, and I could do my work as far as religious affairs was
10 concerned in a more comfortable way.
11 Q. Well, let me show you now a document. This is Exhibit P2877.
12 Sir, if you could have a look at this. This relates to a question I asked
13 you earlier, and maybe we can sort out whether it's a translation issue or
14 something else.
15 This is from the Official Gazette of the Republic of Serbia, and
16 it's from 2000, from the year 2000, and it's a decision on organising the
17 event "Remembrance and Hope."
18 MR. HANNIS: I think we may have to go to the bottom of the
19 left-hand column. Yes.
20 Q. Can you see that, Mr. Milosavljevic?
21 A. Yes, I see that.
22 MR. HANNIS: And then if we could go to the top of the right-hand
24 Q. Does that refresh your recollection about that particular
1 A. Yes, yes, absolutely. Absolutely.
2 Q. Okay. Can you tell us what that was about?
3 A. This was a particular event marking a particular anniversary.
4 This honourary committee never held a single meeting. I was appointed, I
5 guess, as one of the people who had helped Aleksinac in some matters, and
6 I did not even attend the event itself.
7 In my view, this is more of a -- well, there was some committee
8 that prepared this and people who were doing that. I was on the honourary
9 committee. Of course, I had been appointed, but not a single session of
10 this committee was held; at least, I did not take part in a single
12 Q. And on the persons who are members with you, it also included
13 General Pavkovic; correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And Mrs. Markovic?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And you're listed as being a member of JUL; correct?
18 A. Yes. Yes, I'm not denying that. General Pavkovic hails from
19 Aleksinac, and that was one of the criteria.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 MR. HANNIS: I'm finished with that document.
22 Q. Now, when you became appointed to this position for coordinating
23 things in Kosovo, how did it first -- how did that first come about? Were
24 you approached and asked if you were willing to do this job, or were you
25 nominated? Did you volunteer? How did you get that job?
1 A. The job of coordinator of state organs is one I got in the
2 following way: The prime minister, Mirjanovic, invited me to his office
3 and asked me whether I would wish to work in Kosovo and Metohija as
4 coordinator of the state organs.
5 The reason for my particular engagement, as he explained it to me
6 then, lie in the fact that he had enormous trust in me. That was the
7 result of my previous work in the government, and also due to the fact
8 that I had vast experience in conducting affairs as far as municipalities
9 and districts are concerned, because I have already pointed out that I was
10 president of a municipality for 12 years, that is to say, I served three
11 terms of office; that is to say, that I was very well-versed in economic
12 matters, financial, and so on.
13 I had exceptional energy for travel, work. I never kept strict
14 working hours. In the government, I would start working at 7.00 in the
15 morning and working hours started from 9.00 a.m., and that was a
16 recommendation in his eyes when he suggested that I be coordinator. I
17 thought about it briefly, and I accepted to go knowing what the problems
18 were, and I knew that quite simply there was work to be done there.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis, can you find a suitable place to
21 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour I can.
22 Q. And I can certainly see that, sir. You certainly seem to have a
23 lot of energy and more than me.
24 MR. HANNIS: I think this would be a good time for us to break for
25 the day.
1 JUDGE CHOWHAN: Just a little question. What was the status of
2 the coordinator, please? Could you, sir, answer this: What was the
3 status in terms of government hierarchy? What was your status? Were you
4 equal to a minister or equal to a mayor or what would be the status? And
5 were you paid for this job?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My earnings came in my capacity as
7 president of the Committee for Dealing with Natural Disasters. That is a
8 government organ; and to be quite honest, I didn't put any questions
9 because that's the way I worked during my life. It was important for me
10 to work. I spent most of my time getting things done for my own area, but
11 I accepted this in view of the fact that it was necessary to work down
13 JUDGE BONOMY: We're short of time at this stage. Could you deal
14 with the specific question, please, about where you stood so far as status
15 is concerned.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My status was coordinator of the
17 work of the state organs. It did not have a particular rank, but it was
18 held in high regard, if I can put it that way, briefly.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Milosavljevic, this courtroom, regrettably, is
20 required by another case this afternoon, so we have to end our proceedings
21 at this stage. That means that you will have to return tomorrow to
22 continue your evidence. Tomorrow, we have what's commonly known as the
23 graveyard slot. We are sitting in the afternoon on tomorrow, Friday, so
24 your evidence will continue at 2.15 p.m. tomorrow.
25 Meanwhile, it's vital that you do not discuss the evidence in the
1 case with anyone. You can discuss whatever else you like with whoever you
2 like, but no discussion whatsoever of the evidence. Please now leave the
3 courtroom with the usher and return here to recommence at 2.15 tomorrow.
4 [The witness stands down]
5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,
6 to be reconvened on Friday, the 24th day of
7 August, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.