Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 19743

1 Friday, 7 December 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bakrac.

7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] While we're waiting for the witness

8 to enter the court, I wanted to inform you and to request that if Witness

9 Stojanovic does not complete his testimony today -- well, we'll complete

10 the examination-in-chief, but there's always the possibility that the

11 cross-examination will not be completed today. In that case, I want like

12 to ask that in Monday we interrupt his examination, because we have the

13 next witness coming in, who is Dikovic, Ljubisa Dikovic, and from the

14 Ministry of Defence he has been authorised to be absent from work just for

15 two days, because he is otherwise engaged at his job. If you agree. Now,

16 we wanted to bring him in earlier on, and the Prosecution complained they

17 didn't have enough time to prepare, and since he was on our notification

18 list from October saying he would testify in December, we're bringing him

19 in, in the last week to avoid any complaints from the Prosecution, but as

20 I say, he cannot be here after Monday and Tuesday because he has to get

21 back to his job.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: It should be to possible to accommodate that, but

23 I'd be surprised if we did not complete Mr. Stojanovic today, if your

24 estimate of the time likely to be taken is accurate.

25 So let's crack on and see if we can't solve the problem the simple

Page 19744

1 way.

2 [The witness entered court]

3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honour. Thank you.

4 Yesterday we were going to show the video clip. So if you agree,

5 we'll carry on with that straight away. And we disclosed it to the

6 Prosecution yesterday. I hope they have no objection. So perhaps we

7 could deal with that first and then continue on as planned, thank you.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stojanovic, the examination by Mr. Bakrac will

9 continue in a moment. Please bear in mind that the solemn declaration to

10 speak the truth, which you gave at the beginning of your evidence will

11 continue to apply to your evidence throughout.

12 Mr. Bakrac.


14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 Examination by Mr. Bakrac: [Continued]

16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please look at

17 Exhibit 5D1376. That is an exhibit that was not on the 65 ter list. We

18 announced it yesterday, and it is up to you to decide whether to admit it

19 or not.

20 Q. General --

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stamp does not seem to object now, so please

22 continue.

23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. General, look at this video footage and tell us when we finish if

25 that is what you told us about yesterday concerning the visit to Batusa

Page 19745

1 village.

2 MR. STAMP: While we are waiting, could I just indicate that while

3 I didn't object to the video, I -- I would have objected, but it's

4 probably too late now, to counsel telling the witness what is on the

5 video, instead of asking the witness if he could tell us what the witness

6 depicts -- what the video depicts.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Your comment is noted, Mr. Stamp.

8 Mr. Bakrac, 1376 is the correct number, is it?

9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. That is how I --

10 1376.

11 [Videotape played]

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Have we seen enough, Mr. Bakrac? Because we're not

13 hearing anything, and if there's anything else to see, then --

14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in a few seconds it

15 will be over.

16 MR. STAMP: Now, before proceeding, Your Honour did indicate that

17 you're not hearing anything, and there now arises some difficulties. One

18 of the problems of trying to be agreeable when things are done in haste is

19 that sometimes we're cross -- at cross-wires because the type I got late

20 last night did not have sound. I'm hearing sound now, but it appears that

21 the Bench is not hearing any sound. And I don't know if the exhibit

22 proposed is the video with sound, as I'm hearing it now, which is not what

23 I got last night.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, if you'd allowed me to clarify the position,

25 we have heard nothing. This is simply pictures, as far as the Bench is

Page 19746

1 concerned. No doubt Mr. Bakrac is going to ask the witness to explain

2 what it was.

3 We'll get to that in a moment, because 5D1376, according to the

4 records, is a report dated the 19th of January, 1999 and is not a video

5 clip. It's a report by Colonel Jelic to the Pristina Corps Command.

6 Now, you can sort that out later and you can deal with it at the

7 break and -- and clarify the position with everyone and for the record.

8 Let's now proceed with what question you wish to ask based on this video.

9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. General, my learned friend Mr. Stamp objected that I led you as to

11 what this is about. Is it mentioned anywhere in the text which village

12 this was going on in, the name of the village?

13 A. On the video-clip you've just seen, you could see the final talks

14 with the locals in Batusa village in Djakovica municipality that took

15 place in a local schoolhouse close to a brook. And in this video footage

16 you could see the man I talked about yesterday, Zejnil Batusa, the most

17 influential and senior man of that village, who was sitting next to

18 General Pavkovic. And you could see the most prominent people there, the

19 seniors.

20 Let me just say about this footage it might seem odd to an

21 uninformed viewer that the villagers are sitting on the floor, that is,

22 according to their ancient custom; whereas, the representatives of the

23 army are sitting on chairs. I and General Pavkovic and the others wanted

24 to sit down on the floor with them, but the Albanians would not agree to

25 that. They brought some chairs instead.

Page 19747

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Remind us of the date of this, please. Let's

2 concentrate on what really matters here. We know that Albanians sit on

3 the floor. What -- when did this happen?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe it was sometime in May

5 1998.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Now, we've got to finish your evidence

7 today, so let's concentrate on the questions that are being asked.

8 Mr. Bakrac.

9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'd like to move on

10 now. I think what we have seen is enough.

11 Q. General --

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, just tell us what happened. I mean, what

13 were you discussing at the meeting? This point -- we did not get a

14 translation of what was being said, so tell us what -- you may have heard

15 it, although the sound was very dim, but we need to know what you were

16 talking about.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the locals of the

18 said village were complaining to the members of the army that every night

19 they were being disturbed by terrorists from the neighbouring village of

20 Junik, who came to their village threatening them unless they accepted

21 weapons, to join staff, that they are taking away some certain -- some

22 young men to join their staffs. And on the road that goes from their

23 village to Kosare border post, they felt unsafe and they wanted the

24 protection of the army. These were talks, negotiations between the

25 villagers and the members of the army, and it was agreed that the army

Page 19748

1 would give protection to that village, and in exchange the locals of that

2 village would not join the terrorist staffs of the KLA.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: This was in May 1998?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

6 Mr. Bakrac.

7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. General, let us go on now. In practical terms, were there any

9 restricting factors in the work of security organs and the military police

10 after the beginning of the NATO aggression? And during that aggression?

11 A. Yes. War is certainly not something natural and the security

12 organs and the military police faced numerous problems from the very

13 outset. I said yesterday the greatest problem was the beginning of

14 massive migration of the Albanian population. And as for the work of

15 security organs of the Pristina Corps itself, I want to emphasise that

16 under very complex security conditions, they had to discharge their

17 prescribed functions and act according to regulations, and in doing their

18 duty, they often risked their lives. I also want to stress that part of

19 my security organs got killed while performing their duties, such as chief

20 of security of the 549th Brigade, Vlado Mikicevic, head of the Tactical

21 Group 252, Albanian terrorists in the area of Bajgora, to the north-east

22 of Kosovska Mitrovica, kidnapped one whole vehicle holding one commanding

23 officer and four other officers who were on their way to perform an

24 on-site investigation. After month-long negotiations with the help of the

25 OSCE mission,, we managed to free some of them.

Page 19749

1 One part of our department for combatting crime were wounded on

2 duty. A great problem was frequent relocation of units, problems with

3 communications, bombing day and night, difficult access to witnesses that

4 we had to contact on instructions of the prosecutor, primarily witnesses

5 of Albanian ethnicity. When I say this, I mean first and foremost

6 witnesses and injured parties in rape crimes, where we did not manage to

7 elicit their cooperation, that was made difficult by their ancient customs

8 of Albanians and their beliefs.

9 Within the unit itself, we had difficulties because of the

10 reluctance to report on colleagues. All this made the work of security

11 organs in 1998 [as interpreted] and 1999 very difficult.

12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe "1998" should

13 not be in the transcript. The witness only said "1999" and my question

14 only had to do with 1999.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. General, did security organs and the military police in 1999 have

18 any information that certain members of the corps committed various

19 criminal offences, especially serious crimes, such as murder, rape,

20 inhumane treatment?

21 A. Certainly. The organs of military security of the Pristina Corps

22 had such information in 1999. For all such crimes, security organs took

23 the prescribed legal steps and all the crimes that we were informed of

24 were prosecuted before the competent authorities; that is to say, we filed

25 criminal reports to the competent prosecutors.

Page 19750

1 Q. When you say that, would you clarify something and tell us what

2 the duties of the security organs are and the military police when they

3 receive information that a crime had taken place.

4 A. Well, those duties are prescribed by law, the Law on Criminal

5 Procedure. And I said yesterday that the security organs of the military

6 police have the right and duty and authorisation from the authorised

7 organs within the internal affairs organs, and those tasks relate first

8 and foremost to the following: That upon learning that a crime had taken

9 place, they must inform the senior officer, and all measures must be taken

10 to secure the site, not to destroy or hide any traces of the crime, and to

11 uncover the perpetrator or prevent the perpetrator from escaping, to

12 collect the necessary evidence, and then to inform the investigative

13 organs and the organs of the military police, who would then carry out an

14 investigation.

15 And I wish to stress here that whenever a crime is committed, a

16 serious crime, the crime of murder or a crime which results in death that,

17 the investigating judge of the military court in question would go out on

18 the scene of the crime to investigate and inspect it. Thank you.

19 Q. When you perform all those duties, is that where the duty of the

20 organs, military police organs and everyone else ends in documenting the

21 case?

22 A. No. The military police security organs continue to investigate.

23 They investigate the circumstances and collect the necessary information,

24 proof, and evidence that the crime had been committed, and also act

25 pursuant to the orders issued and guide-lines issued by the prosecutor;

Page 19751

1 that is to say, to take witnesses, take statements from witnesses, and

2 everything that will throw light on the crime that was committed.

3 Q. Now, when the perpetrator of a criminal crime hands himself up or

4 comes into the hands of the organs, does your -- do your duties stop

5 there?

6 A. Yes. All further work is just executed pursuant to instructions

7 given by the prosecutor in question.

8 Q. General, at the material time when the NATO bombings started and

9 when the war started, indeed, in the territory of Kosovo and Metohija, did

10 you have information according to which certain commanders on the ground

11 failed to report to the corps command about crimes committed by members of

12 their units or that crime -- they tried to cover up crimes like that?

13 A. No. Individual commanders did -- didn't -- did not have -- we did

14 not have any information like that; that is to say, that the commanders

15 would cover up crimes committed, cover them up from their superior

16 commands, but we did have knowledge and information that individual

17 commanders of the units in question were not informed that in their units

18 there were people who had committed criminal -- crimes or offences. And

19 the information came from the security organs of the military police. But

20 on a regular basis, they would then inform the commanders in question of

21 what had happened.

22 Q. General, your service, did it have information to the effect that

23 certain corps members committed mass crimes? Was anything like that

24 reported?

25 A. The security organs of the Pristina Corps did not have information

Page 19752

1 according to which certain units committed any mass crimes, but they

2 did -- information did reach them that in certain locations when the army

3 units arrived, that either individually or in groups there were bodies

4 found, dead bodies.

5 Now, for all such cases, the corps command, up the chain of

6 command, and indeed the security organs of the military police and

7 investigating judge, would go on the spot, on site, to investigate any

8 such cases and the circumstances thereof.

9 Now, if dead bodies were found in certain locations, the security

10 organs would then take measures to collect the necessary information and

11 evidence, and then this would help the crime to be prosecuted, the

12 perpetrators to be prosecuted. I'm speaking about the locations where it

13 was established that army units had been in place.

14 Now, about the other localities, localities where we were not able

15 to establish that there were any members of units or where there were no

16 combat activities going on, then we would inform the competent organs of

17 the Ministry of the Interior about such locations and such crimes and the

18 military prosecutor, which by virtue of his duty would then go on to

19 inform the territorially -- the territorial military prosecutors in

20 charge.

21 Now, for localities where we were not able to establish whether

22 there were or were not any army units present or whether there was or was

23 not combat in those localities, we would take all the necessary

24 investigative steps, on-site investigation, filing criminal reports

25 against perpetrators, and then the activities would carry on to collect

Page 19753

1 the evidence, as is normal in any such case.

2 Q. General, I don't think we have it on record -- or rather, I think

3 you said -- or rather, would you repeat. If you didn't know who the

4 perpetrator was, what criminal reports would you file? Against whom?

5 A. For the localities where we did not know for sure, where we were

6 not able to establish with certainty whether in those locations there had

7 been any combat conducted by army units, in such cases we would take all

8 the necessary investigative measures, or on-site investigations, and then

9 criminal reports would be filed against person or persons unknown.

10 Q. On the basis of your operative work and collection of evidence,

11 later on were any cases taken to court? Were they prosecuted, that had

12 been -- criminal reports filed against person or persons unknown, after

13 the end of the war, when the war was over?

14 A. Yes, certainly. For example, the case was resolved of the killing

15 of six civilians in the village of Gornja Klina, in the municipality of

16 Srbica, where it was established -- criminal responsibility was

17 established against Lieutenant-Colonel Slobodan Stocic, and then criminal

18 responsibility once again for a group of volunteers was established in the

19 175th Motorised Brigade in the village of Zegra, in -- on the territory of

20 the municipality of Gnjilane, with Vlado Zmajevic, a volunteer at the

21 head, and he was also prosecuted. And we were able to throw light on the

22 crime that had taken place in the municipality of Slovinje, the

23 municipality of Lipljan, actually, those proceedings are underway; but the

24 perpetrators of that crime are in custody and court proceedings are

25 underway. And there are numerous other examples that I could quote as

Page 19754

1 well.

2 Q. General, how can you from this distance of time appraise the

3 efficiency of the security organs that you led or the military police

4 during the war in Kosovo and Metohija in 1999?

5 A. Under existing conditions -- or rather, the conditions that

6 existed as I described them a moment ago, and in a relatively short period

7 of time -- because I wish to stress that we are dealing with a period -- a

8 three-month period, which is how long the state of war went on. With all

9 the necessary limitations, my assessment is that the security organs of

10 the military police were highly efficacious. They did their job very

11 professionally in documenting and prosecuting all illegal acts and all

12 perpetrators.

13 I would like to stress on this occasion that just during the war

14 the security organs, the military police received 250 criminal reports for

15 serious crimes that were committed, including the crimes of violating the

16 provisions of international humanitarian law and war law. Of those 250

17 cases, as far as I can remember, some 20 or 22 cases were crimes, and

18 after the war, the military courts received another 100 criminal reports

19 for various crimes and offences.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bakrac, in English a number of times the

21 expression "the security organs of the military police" has been used. Is

22 that, in fact, the expression that's being used?

23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. Security organs and

24 the military police.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

Page 19755

1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] And --

2 Q. General, you said that 20 to 22 cases -- ah, right. It

3 says "crimes." You said "crimes." What did you mean when you

4 said "crimes"?

5 A. I meant the crime of murder.

6 Q. Thank you, General. What was the cooperation between the military

7 security service and the MUP and state security during 1999 in Kosovo and

8 Metohija?

9 A. Well, cooperation between the security organs of the Pristina

10 Corps and the military police, with the organs of the Ministry of the

11 Interior of the Republic of Serbia and the State Security Service, was

12 very proper and correct and was based on regular exchanges of information,

13 both orally and in written form.

14 Q. The organs and units of the Ministry of the Interior of Serbia in

15 Kosovo and Metohija during 1999, were they subordinated to the Army of

16 Yugoslavia -- or rather, the Pristina Corps?

17 A. The organs of the Ministry of the Interior of the Republic of

18 Serbia during 1999 were not subordinated to the command of the Pristina

19 Corps. I do know that sometime in mid-April - I think it was on the 20th

20 of April - an order reached me from the command of the 3rd Army which

21 referred to a Supreme Command Staff order, by which the organs and units

22 of the Ministry of the Interior in the territory of Kosovo and Metohija be

23 re-subordinated to the command of the Pristina Corps. I also know of

24 another instance, that the commander of the Pristina Corps,

25 General Lazarevic, was informed in writing from the subordinated

Page 19756

1 commander -- the commanders of subordinated units that the organs of the

2 Ministry of the Interior refused to be re-subordinated to army units,

3 claiming that that order, which was signed by the Chief of Staff of the

4 Supreme Command, General Ojdanic, was not binding upon them but that it --

5 it was the order that they would receive down the vertical chain of

6 command that would be binding, from their own chain of command.

7 Q. General, was there any information about any bad cooperation or

8 poor cooperation and work between individual units and MUP organs at lower

9 levels? Any poor examples?

10 A. Well, there were during the wartime conditions, well, not any

11 drastic examples or drastic problems, but the -- the major problem was, as

12 far as I can remember, this: Cooperation between the command of the 37th

13 Motorised Brigade, for example, and the chief of the internal affairs

14 department in Glogovac, and those complaints related to mutual duties and

15 responsibilities and taking measures to sanitize the -- the terrain after

16 combat and fighting against the Siptar terrorists.

17 Q. And what was done in such cases? What did the corps command do

18 when faced with a problem like that?

19 A. Well, in all cases, as indeed in this one, the corps command on a

20 regular basis was interested in promoting cooperation; that is to say,

21 between the Ministry of the Interior and the army; that it should be kept

22 at a proper level, because the situation was otherwise highly complex. So

23 if there were any problems that cropped up at a local level, lower level

24 down the chain of command, both in the army and in MUP, with respect to

25 coordination and collaboration, it would send command organs in the

Page 19757

1 specific case -- if you're asking me about that, I know, for instance,

2 that the corps command sent Colonel Paprica and

3 Colonel Radojko Stefanovic, the chief of the department for operations in

4 the corps command, to see what was going on, what was happening with this

5 operation between the 37th Motorised Brigade and the Glogovac MUP

6 representative. And then the corps commander sent me down there with a

7 team, and on the 7th of May I also went down there to investigate these

8 allegations. And when we talked to the commander of the 37th Motorised

9 Brigade and with the chief of the department of interior -- of the

10 interior of the MUP of Serbia in Glogovac, and when we pointed out to them

11 their responsibilities and tasks with respect to sanitizing the terrain

12 and mutual cooperation -- well, that's what we did. We pointed that out

13 to them.

14 And I think that in the second half of May, once again, pursuant

15 to an order from the commander I went down on the ground to deal with

16 those problems and resolve them.

17 Q. General, what were the duties of the members of the Army of

18 Yugoslavia with respect to regulating and controlling the security regime

19 in the territory?

20 A. The security regime and the duties of the members of the Army of

21 Yugoslavia in that respect -- well, the Army of Yugoslavia had no duties

22 to regulate the security regime on the territory of Kosovo and Metohija;

23 however, it did have duties and responsibilities to regulate the security

24 regime in the area of deployment of its units. And to regulate the

25 security regime on the territory of Kosovo and Metohija, it was our organs

Page 19758

1 who were in charge.

2 First and foremost, the organs of the Ministry of the Interior,

3 the State Security Service, the local self-government authorities, and as

4 I say, they were different organs who were in charge of that.

5 Q. General, let's take a look at -- now at Exhibit -- Defence Exhibit

6 5D382, please. And we'd like to hear your comments, briefly.

7 Or would you, rather, look at para 3 on page 1. Tell us, why did

8 the army have its own check-point in that village when you said the army

9 was not in charge of enforcing security in that territory?

10 A. The army had its check-point in Klokote village, Vitina

11 municipality, on the road from Vitina to Gnjilane, because 30 metres away

12 from that check-point there was the command post of 175th Infantry

13 Brigade. Such check-points were set up by other units as well in their

14 areas of deployment, or in the immediate vicinity of their areas of

15 deployment, with a view to preventing uncontrolled entry or exit from

16 areas of deployment of units.

17 Let me give you one of the practical reasons. Uncontrolled

18 movement of soldiers or conscripts could not be allowed lest they go

19 absent without official leave. These check-points were manned by military

20 police, and each of these check-points covered the area of deployment of

21 the respective unit.

22 Q. Let us now look at para 4. Look carefully and tell us, did

23 military police overstep their authority in this case? Then I'll have a

24 follow-up question.

25 A. No, I don't think they overstepped their authority in this

Page 19759

1 specific case. They simply assisted the Ministry of Interior organs,

2 because the crime took place in the immediate vicinity of their

3 check-point.

4 Q. In the second paragraph of this para 4, we see that two recruits,

5 Vladica Djurasevic and Dejan Stojkovic entered the house of two old women

6 of Serb ethnicity in Klokote village, and at gunpoint robbed them of 1300

7 Swiss francs. Were there other such cases where military conscripts

8 committed crimes not only against Albanian civilians but also at Serb

9 civilians?

10 A. Would you repeat is that?

11 Q. We see from this document that two recruits robbed at gunpoint two

12 Serb old women. Do you know, were there any other examples where members

13 of the army perpetrated offences and crimes against Serb civilians as

14 well?

15 A. Of course, speaking of crimes such as robbery, theft, or looting,

16 members of the army committed them against Albanian and Serb civilians

17 alike.

18 Q. Now, look at the last paragraph of this para 4. Tell us, was

19 there an attempted rape -- and from the name of the injured party, would

20 it be a Serb woman?

21 A. You mean para 5?

22 Q. No, the last paragraph of para 4.

23 A. My answer is "yes."

24 Q. General, would you tell you something about para 5 as well. Why

25 did military police intervene in this case?

Page 19760

1 A. In this case, the military police acted appropriately, because as

2 we can see, these perpetrators of extortion were wearing camouflage

3 uniforms, so that at the time they intervened, the military police could

4 not know whether they were army members or policemen. So after taking

5 them into custody and processing them duly, they turned them over to the

6 competent authorities.

7 As soon as the perpetrators were wearing camouflage uniform, it

8 falls within the jurisdiction of the military police, and in this case

9 military police were right to react the way they did. In this specific

10 case, the perpetrators turned out to be civilians, and they were therefore

11 turned over to the competent authorities.

12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Could we look at another document,

13 5D991.

14 Q. Look at the last paragraph.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Just before you deal with that document, you --

16 you've been talking about the responsibility of the military security

17 organs for security in the area of deployment of VJ units. We've had some

18 evidence earlier in the case, in fact, this week, about the technical

19 definition of what's called "the area of responsibility" and also "the

20 area of defence." Is that something -- are these concepts different

21 from "the area of deployment" that you've been referring to?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The area of responsibility is a

23 broader concept than "the area of deployment." The area of responsibility

24 is a territory delimited by four points within which the unit performs

25 certain activities or actions; whereas, the area of deployment is the area

Page 19761

1 in which the elements of the battle order are positioned. And in that

2 area the unit does not perform any activities. That's the command post,

3 communications centre, command organs, et cetera. It's a narrower field.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

5 Mr. Bakrac.

6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Look in the last paragraph and tell us, as before, whether they

8 were right to do what they did. The last paragraph.

9 A. Yes, certainly. Members of 180th Military Territorial Detachment

10 acted appropriately and -- according to the law, and later over -- later

11 turned over the persons concerned to the MUP.

12 Q. So this citizen who set fire to houses, and he was caught doing

13 that.

14 A. Yes, yes.

15 Q. I just wanted to make sure that it's clear that it's one person

16 who is concerned.

17 Now, I'd like to know: Did you hear about the term "Joint Command

18 for Kosovo and Metohija" while you were in Kosovo?

19 A. Yes, I did.

20 Q. When did you hear and in which context?

21 A. I heard of the term "Joint Command," to the best of my

22 recollection, sometime in mid-June 1998 from the chief of operations of

23 the command of the Pristina Corps, Colonel Milan Djakovic.

24 Q. What did he say to you on that occasion? How did you come to

25 learn of this term?

Page 19762

1 A. Well, I remember that -- let me just give you a brief context. On

2 orders of the corps commander, I had to keep a working map in the security

3 organ of the Pristina Corps where we drew all the information about the

4 plans and intentions and locations and positions of Albanian terrorists.

5 And it was my duty to submit this information to the chief of operations,

6 Colonel Djakovic, every day. I said yesterday that after the OSCE mission

7 arrived I also had the obligation to submit this information regularly to

8 the head of the liaison team for the OSCE mission.

9 When sharing this information with Colonel Djakovic, I heard from

10 him this term, "Joint Command." I asked him what it meant. And as he

11 explained to me then, that term referred to the joint meetings of

12 representatives of the Pristina Corps Command and the Ministry of the

13 Interior to exchange information and to coordinate cooperation and

14 coordinated actions between the army and the MUP behind the lines. He

15 often stressed that it was a problem that the information that the corps

16 command receives down the vertical chain of command - that is to say,

17 orders - and the orders that the MUP receive down their own chain of

18 command consistently failed to deal with the problem on the ground of

19 properly coordinating the actions of the army, on one side, and the MUP,

20 on the other side in a specific operation.

21 Q. Did you ever attend such a meeting or briefing?

22 A. You mean a meeting of that Joint Command? No, I never, never

23 attended any meetings that somebody termed "the Joint Command."

24 Q. Did Colonel Djakovic tell you where those meetings took place?

25 A. No, Colonel Djakovic did not tell me where those meetings took

Page 19763

1 place, but from what I was able to learn from persons who worked on the

2 security detail of the corps commander, those coordination meetings were

3 sometimes held in the building of the Ministry of the Interior and, at

4 other times, in the building of the Executive Council of Kosovo.

5 Q. To the best of your knowledge, did these meetings of the Joint

6 Command take any decisions as to how to use the units of the corps?

7 A. No, no way. In view of my position and duties, I would have had

8 to know about that. Decisions were taken down the prescribed chain of

9 command in the army, as far as army units are concerned, and I believe it

10 worked the same way in the Ministry of the Interior; although, I don't

11 know about them. However, the corps command received all orders on how to

12 use its units from the forward command post of the 3rd Army that was

13 located in the Kosovo Heroes Barracks in Pristina. And I know that at

14 that command post there was either the Chief of Staff or the commander of

15 the 3rd Army.

16 Q. Tell me, now when you are telling us this, what year are you

17 talking about?

18 A. 1998.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stojanovic, you're a -- a very experienced army

20 officer and had served by 1999 for six years in Kosovo? During the period

21 prior to 1998, were you familiar with the concept of coordinating action

22 between the VJ and the MUP to deal with problems?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. From March 1998 onwards, March,

24 April, and May, numerous problems manifested themselves, because in that

25 period MUP units suffered significant losses at their check-points on

Page 19764

1 roads.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: I understand -- I understand all that, but my

3 question's a different one. Prior to 1998, just in the ordinary course of

4 your service as an army officer, were you aware of situations in which

5 there was coordinated action between the VJ and the MUP?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, before 1998 the

7 security situation in Kosovo was much more peaceful. But even then there

8 was coordination and cooperation between members of the army and the MUP,

9 and this cooperation consisted in an exchange of information, resulting

10 from the monitoring of the overall security situation, and at that time

11 there was no need for any anti-terrorist operations.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Mr. Bakrac.

13 JUDGE CHOWHAN: I'm sorry. What type of cooperation was then

14 required when things were peaceful in this area between VJ and between the

15 MUP? What -- can you kindly elucidate what kind of cooperation you had?

16 I mean, more than living together, what sort?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Before 1998, if I understood your

18 question correctly, the cooperation consisted mainly of informing each

19 other and exchanging information about the overall security situation in

20 Kosovo.

21 Second, it had to deal with specific issues of cooperation between

22 competent Secretariats of Internal Affairs and specific commands on the

23 same level, be it in Djakovica or elsewhere.

24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] May I go on, Your Honour?

25 Q. General, did it seem odd to you when you heard from

Page 19765

1 Colonel Djakovic about that term, "Joint Command," did you ask him what it

2 meant?

3 A. It did not appear odd to me at all, because from what I had seen

4 and the information that I was providing to him about the activities of

5 Albanian terrorists, which I suppose he shared with MUP organs and the

6 State Security Service, and I also suppose they shared their information

7 with him about the plans and activities of Albanian terrorists, I knew

8 that there were certain problems concerning coordination, cooperation, and

9 coordinated actions between MUP and army at lower levels, as to a soldier

10 and member of the collegium of the corps command, it was quite clear to me

11 that that command did not have any prerogatives of a proper command, in

12 terms of decision-making or issuing orders. I knew that in practice

13 that's not the way it worked.

14 Q. General, do you have any knowledge to the effect that such

15 meetings were held in 1999?

16 A. No, I have no such knowledge.

17 Q. In view of the position you occupied, would you have had to have

18 known, had meetings taken place in 1999? Must you have known about them?

19 A. Well, certainly I would have to have known about them, had there

20 been such meetings in 1999, but I would have had to know in 1998 as well

21 that there was some sort of command.

22 Q. No, General, what I'm asking you is this: You say, no, there were

23 no such meetings?

24 A. No, not in 1999 there, weren't.

25 Q. Is it true and correct that you would have had to have known, in

Page 19766

1 view of the function you performed, about those meetings, had they taken

2 place?

3 A. Well, quite simply, I must have known, since I was the assistant

4 commander. So I would have had to have known. I would have had certain

5 duties and responsibilities for the commander's security, in order to

6 undertake other measures. It was a state of war, after all. And in a

7 war, faced with a situation of war, all the movements of the commander,

8 the military police security organs always have duties, and this is

9 defined in the regulations of the job.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Going back to 1998, I -- I have formed the

11 impression that the only source of your knowledge of the Joint Command was

12 Djakovic. Are you saying that you had other knowledge of it and its

13 meetings?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

15 THE WITNESS: Mr. President, as the chief of the security organ, I

16 certainly had several -- lots of information and knowledge, and I would

17 certainly have known about that, had something like that existed, in the

18 figurative sense, Djakovic or -- I don't know who referred to this

19 as "Joint Command."

20 JUDGE BONOMY: I don't know -- I don't know if it's translation,

21 but you're not -- you're not dealing with the question I've proposed in

22 English. I want to know if you have another source of information about

23 the Joint Command in 1998 other than Djakovic.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I had -- well, from the immediate

25 security of the commander, security detail of the commander, the

Page 19767

1 corporals, where they go, some other information, sergeants or something

2 like that, telling me where they were going, but not other information. I

3 just was told where the commander was going, what his movements were. So

4 after going to the forward command post, for example, in the Kosovski

5 Junaci barracks, the forward command post of the 3rd Army at about 1800

6 hour, he would report on his proposals and the 3rd Army command would

7 verify a decision of his or he would go to the Ministry of the Interior,

8 for instance, or to the executive council building. So I would just ask

9 where he was going, what his movements were, and I was explained that he

10 was going to dovetail the orders received with the MUP organs.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, but that doesn't -- that doesn't suggest that

12 there is either a -- a body or a concept known as "the Joint Command."

13 And I hope I'm not misrepresenting the evidence from earlier in the case,

14 but -- but Mr. Lazarevic, in giving evidence, certainly, I think, gave us

15 the impression that it would not be unusual for him not to know where his

16 commander, General Pavkovic, was going on any particular day. He was not

17 his brother's keeper.

18 [Defence counsel confer]

19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we're talking about

20 1998. Lazarevic was at the forward command post, and he testified about

21 that throughout.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Indeed. But there were occasions when he might

23 have been expected to know where his commander was, and -- and I think

24 it's an accurate recollection of the evidence that he was not able to --

25 it was -- it was not unusual for -- for him not to be aware of -- of that.

Page 19768

1 Now, what I'm trying to understand is why you say in 1999, if

2 there was any meeting that was termed, a Joint Command meeting, you were

3 bound to know about it. I'm not understanding that point at the moment.

4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, let's try and clarify

5 that.

6 Q. General, what did you mean to say when you said that? Perhaps at

7 the very outset we passed this over too quickly. But in 1999, in view of

8 the position you held, did you engage some members of the military police

9 to provide security for the commander attending those meetings or for

10 going to those meetings?

11 A. Mr. President, I understood you to say the following: Well, it is

12 not the corps commander who has to know. He need not know where the

13 commander of the army is, but the chief of security must know where his --

14 JUDGE BONOMY: You've misunderstood me. I was talking about the

15 situation when Mr. Lazarevic was Chief of Staff and Mr. Pavkovic was head

16 of the Pristina Corps and there were occasions when he would go to --

17 General Pavkovic would go to meetings and Mr. Lazarevic would not

18 necessarily know where he was.

19 Now, what I'm trying to understand is why you should know where

20 General Pavkovic or General Lazarevic were at any given time in 1999.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, yes, I understand

22 your question. I wouldn't need to know at each point in time where my

23 commander is. There was no need for that. It is the people providing

24 security for him that needed to know that. But my answer was this: In

25 1999, had there been any meetings which would be termed here "Joint

Page 19769

1 Command meetings," then I would have had to have some assignment for

2 additional security or other responsibilities towards the corps commander.

3 That was my answer.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: But in 1998 that wasn't the case, so why should it

5 be different in 1999?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, simply, Mr. President, because

7 in 1999 there was a war on and the corps commanders -- the corps commander

8 was especially in jeopardy. We looked into the possibility of him being

9 kidnapped, captured, and things like that.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well. Mr. Bakrac.

11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. You've clarified that now. Just a brief question. During the

13 war, the corps commander, did he go to attend any meetings in Belgrade?

14 Do you know anything about that?

15 A. The commander of the Pristina Corps, you mean? Is that what you

16 meant?

17 Q. Yes.

18 A. No, never. He never went to attend any meetings in -- to Belgrade

19 in the course of 1999.

20 Q. General, let's move on to another area now. And tell me this:

21 You -- or rather, your security organ - that is to say, of the Pristina

22 Corps- during 1999, were you controlled or toured by representatives of

23 the security administration of the Supreme Command Staff?

24 A. Yes. During 1999, on two occasions the security department of the

25 Pristina Corps was inspected and controlled by the top-level leaders from

Page 19770

1 the security administration of the Supreme Command Staff. The first time

2 an inspection of the work of the security organs of the Pristina Corps,

3 was done at the end of April, when the chief of the security department,

4 General Geza Farkas came on tour to inspect. The second time the Pristina

5 Corps security organs were toured by the deputy chief of the security

6 administration, General Aleksandar Vasiljevic, the assistant chief of the

7 security administration, General Branko Gajic, and the chief of the

8 department of security of the 3rd Army, Colonel Stojadin Antic. And I

9 think this was from the 1st to the 6th or the 1st to the 7th of June,

10 1999.

11 Q. General, tell me, please, the work of the security service, your

12 security service, when the first inspection was conducted, how did

13 General Farkas assess the work of your security service after his first

14 inspection?

15 A. As the chief myself - and the meeting was attended by all

16 subordinate chiefs of the security organs units as well - I briefed

17 General Farkas on the overall situation in the territory of Kosovo and

18 Metohija and the measures and steps taken by the security organs of the

19 military police and also the results achieved, the results of their work

20 to document and put a stop to unlawful activities. General Farkas, for

21 his part, on that occasion assessed highly the work of the security organs

22 of the Pristina Corps and military police. He used the term -- or he said

23 that they were the -- sowing the seeds of new cadres and young people for

24 the security service. And when we briefed him and when he spoke to us, he

25 said that the organs of the military security service, 95 per cent of the

Page 19771

1 time, had documented and prevented any unlawful activities. And that was

2 high recognition indeed for us.

3 After General Farkas did his tour and inspection, on the 13th of

4 May, which is otherwise celebrated or once was celebrated as the day of

5 the military service, or Military Service Day, the corps commander, when

6 he heard this, promoted a number of officers from the security service

7 ahead of time.

8 Q. General, tell me, please -- or rather, you've already said this.

9 You've already told us, when General Vasiljevic arrived for an inspection

10 with his team. On that occasion, did General Vasiljevic tell you the

11 reasons for his visit and his inspection, him and his team, of course?

12 A. General Vasiljevic told me that he had come on a regular tour to

13 tour the organs of security of the Pristina Corps on a regular basis.

14 Q. Tell me, what units on that occasion did they visit?

15 A. At my proposal - and General Vasiljevic accepted my proposal. And

16 together with him there was General Gajic and Colonel Antic. We toured

17 the units up at the front line, the front lines of defence facing the

18 Republic of Albania. We also inspected the security organs of the 37th

19 Motorised Brigade in Glogovac, the security organs of the 125th Motorised

20 Brigade not at their command post but the security organ was in a village

21 called Vitomirica near Pec. Then we inspected the security organs in the

22 Djakovica barracks and the security organs of the 549th Motorised Brigade

23 at the Prizren garrison.

24 Q. The chiefs of the security organs of those particular units, did

25 they brief them? Did they report to them?

Page 19772

1 A. Yes, certainly. The security organs of the units mentioned did

2 brief the representatives of the Supreme Command -- of the security

3 administration of the situation in the field, in the units, the measures

4 they had taken, and they raised some of the problems they had encountered

5 during their work.

6 Q. General, how did General Vasiljevic and his team appraise the

7 work, if they did, of the units after having heard briefings and touring

8 and inspecting these units? How did they assess the work of your security

9 service?

10 A. General Vasiljevic, with his team, spent five or six days in the

11 field. He had an opportunity of learning about the work of the security

12 organs in detail. And when he finished his tour, he expressed his

13 satisfaction with everything he'd seen and with everything that the

14 military police organs did. And when we travelled around and toured these

15 units, a NATO plane chased us and we had to get away from that. I don't

16 want to tire the Court with the problems. But he said, "How can you

17 survive at all under such conditions, let alone achieving the results

18 you've achieved?" That was his comment and observation.

19 Q. General, during the time of General Vasiljevic's visit, can you

20 remember whether you attended with him any meeting at which there were

21 representatives of the MUP present and some other state functionaries,

22 state officials?

23 A. General Vasiljevic was in the area of deployment of the security

24 section of the Pristina Corps all the time with his associates. He stayed

25 there. He reported there. He lived there. He ate there. And with

Page 19773

1 General Vasiljevic, I attended one meeting, and I think that was in the

2 afternoon sometime, when I was called by the corps commander to come to

3 the information centre of the Pristina Corps Command to attend a meeting

4 there, and I said that General Vasiljevic was in the area, and so he told

5 me to bring General Vasiljevic along too. So we went together to this

6 meeting at the Hotel Grand in Pristina.

7 Q. General, who invited you to attend the meeting at the Grand Hotel?

8 A. General Pavkovic invited us.

9 Q. When you say "the Grand Hotel," the information centre there, was

10 the Pristina Corps Command put up there too?

11 A. No, never. And I stressed yesterday that the Pristina Corps

12 Command was dispersed in the broader area around Pristina and that the

13 locations were changed frequently. If you wanted -- if you want to give

14 me the locations. But in the Grand Hotel, the informations centre was

15 located there, where persons were exchanged for subordinate units, and the

16 information centre was the -- dealt with the care and attention of

17 soldiers informing their families about the fate of their soldiers where

18 their soldiers where and what had happened to them. And sometimes parents

19 would come there too trying to find their children who were soldiers in

20 the area, to talk to them, and so on.

21 Q. Thank you, General. Now, tell me, if you can remember, and to the

22 best of your recollections, who attended that meeting?

23 A. You mean the meeting at the Grand Hotel?

24 Q. Yes.

25 A. When General Pavkovic -- no, I mean General Vasiljevic and I

Page 19774

1 arrived there, we entered into the premises of the information centre. We

2 found sitting there General Pavkovic and General Lazarevic. They were

3 already there. And then also present was the chief of the state security

4 sector for Kosovo and Metohija, Mr. Misa Vilotic, and also present was

5 Mr. -- or rather, the representative of MUP, General Lukic. And later

6 on - he was a little late - General Kovacevic arrived. He was the chief

7 of the armoured mechanised units in the Supreme Command Staff

8 headquarters.

9 Q. Were there any state officials?

10 A. Yes. When we were sitting down, Mr. Sainovic came in and

11 Mr. Andjelkovic, president of the Executive Council of the Autonomous

12 Province of Kosovo and Metohija, and they sat down at the same table as

13 General Pavkovic and Lazarevic. It was a small area. We were sitting

14 next to them.

15 Q. Can you remember, what was the talk about at that meeting?

16 A. The whole meeting was very short. I think 10 to 15 minutes. My

17 general impression from that meeting was that the atmosphere was troubled,

18 unpleasant. But General Pavkovic addressed us and said that Mr. Sainovic

19 had arrived from Belgrade wishing to inform us of the long-standing

20 negotiations between the president of Yugoslavia and the intermediaries,

21 the Troika, headed by Mr. Ate Sare [phoen].

22 After that, Mr. Sainovic addressed us, sharing with us that the

23 agreement between the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the international

24 community would be signed very soon, that that agreement envisages a

25 cease-fire and a withdrawal of the army and the MUP from Kosovo and

Page 19775

1 Metohija, and that very, very soon withdrawal would start so that all

2 activities should be terminated as soon as possible. It was a very

3 troubled situation. Everybody was taken by surprise and taken aback. And

4 I believe General Lazarevic said on that occasion, "What am I supposed to

5 do now when I have already started some activities against terrorist

6 strongholds in certain locations?" I believe he mentioned Jablanica.

7 Then General Lukic said that he had some ongoing activities too.

8 And to that Mr. Sainovic replied, "I don't know. You see, all that has to

9 be finalised, brought to an end. The agreement is about to be signed, and

10 it envisages a withdrawal of the army and the police from Kosovo."

11 Q. What Mr. Sainovic said, was it an order or --

12 A. No, no order. It was a statement of fact or a suggestion. He

13 said, once again, "It may have been signed already, as I'm speaking. If

14 it's not, it will be signed soon, and withdrawal is forthcoming, very

15 soon. You have to see what you are going to do about your activities that

16 are still underway."

17 Q. Could we now look together at 5D236.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stojanovic, that -- that night, did you have

19 dinner at the Grand Hotel?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bakrac.

22 JUDGE CHOWHAN: Sorry, I have also to ask: When these two

23 generals were talking in that meeting, explaining that they have started

24 some activities against, what they call as, terrorists, and Mr. Stojanovic

25 said, Now they have to put an end to that in view of the treaty which is

Page 19776

1 to come about. Did they elaborate? Did they speak more about what

2 activities they have started? I mean, did they mention about those

3 activities to tell Mr. Sainovic that they were ahead with those activities

4 and will it now be proper to stop those? Did they elaborate? Did they

5 speak more about those activities?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, they said no more. They

7 just said that they had some activities that were ongoing. They did not

8 speak at length to Mr. Sainovic about them. I believe Mr. Lazarevic

9 mentioned Jablanica and General Lukic also said that there were some

10 activities going on in another location. They did not elaborate.

11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. General, let us now look at this exhibit. It's also about the

13 meeting.

14 Can we see page 4 in B/C/S, para 4, "State of morale." And could

15 you please look at the last-but-one sentence in this combat report. It

16 begins with the words "over the past 24 hours." Is that the place where

17 you said you attended a meeting?

18 A. Yes, this document shows what I said earlier: "Over the past 24

19 hours, the information centre received 197 calls from parents and family

20 of the members of our units."

21 This shows the great interest parents had in the safety of their

22 children in that very difficult situation.

23 Q. But that information centre is the room you mentioned.

24 A. Yes, yes.

25 Q. Now, please look at the next page, para 6, "Commanding and

Page 19777

1 communications." So this is a combat report of the Pristina Corps Command

2 of 5th June. That's two or three days after the meeting was held.

3 Could you please read 6.1, second sentence.

4 A. "The corps commander and his team are at Djeneral Jankovic in

5 connection with settling issues related to the agreement on the resolution

6 of the Kos Met crisis."

7 I know. I am aware that the commander had visited the village of

8 Djeneral Jankovic, something to do with negotiations leading to that

9 agreement, because I provided security together with the police.

10 Q. And that was three days after Mr. Sainovic informed you that

11 the -- the agreement was about to be signed and that the police and the

12 army were about to withdraw.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Thank you, General. One more thing about this visit by

15 General Vasiljevic. At that time, when he was visiting, on your way to

16 the meeting or on your way back, did anyone say it was a meeting of the

17 Joint Command?

18 A. No, I didn't speak to General Vasiljevic about the Joint Command

19 at all, nor did he ask me on our way back from the information centre. We

20 didn't discuss it at all.

21 Q. We'll now move to a different subject. We have to try to move on

22 more quickly and finish before the break.

23 What do you know about the group of volunteers allegedly

24 called "Pauk", Spider?

25 A. That group of volunteers did not come to the Pristina Corps units

Page 19778

1 bearing that name, "Pauk," Spider. I learned about that group of

2 volunteers when they, on orders of the security administration of the

3 General Staff, were withdrawn from Kosovo and Metohija. As far as I

4 remember, they arrived around the 15th of April, 1999 through regular

5 admissions centres. They were on the regular lists of volunteers, the way

6 volunteers are usually admitted. And they were assigned to units of 125th

7 Motorised Brigade. I believe that was a group of about 30 volunteers.

8 And later, when we sent them away from Kosovo on orders of the security

9 administration of the General Staff, we learned that five of them had left

10 within days.

11 This group was assigned to 125th Motorised Brigade for the simple

12 reason that the chief of security of the 3rd Army asked me which of the

13 subordinate units is suffering the greatest losses, and knowing that the

14 125th Motorised Brigade had sustained great losses in the area of Kosare

15 border post, where they were constantly under terrorist attack non-stop,

16 and especially badly affected was the 125th Detachment of the military

17 police, I suggested that they be used to replenish and reinforce the 125th

18 Motorised Brigade.

19 Q. If I understood you correctly, they were placed in a couple of

20 units within the 125th Motorised Brigade. Where were they engaged?

21 A. In keeping with the general principle of the command that

22 volunteers should not stay as a group, they were individually assigned to

23 various units of the 125th Brigade. And I asked that a few of them be

24 assigned to the 125th Company of the military police, because on a

25 previous occasion some soldiers and the commander of that company were

Page 19779

1 killed and wounded in fighting in Kosare and the company was decimated.

2 Q. Did you know that their name was "Pauk"?

3 A. No.

4 Q. When did you learn?

5 A. I learned when the chief of the security administration called me.

6 Let me just say that this group was there from the 15th of April until the

7 5th of May.

8 Just after the 5th of May, the chief called me and asked me, "Do

9 you know that you have a volunteer group somewhere among your units with

10 that name?" I said, "Of course, I don't know. We have no such

11 information." And then the security administration ordered me -- in fact,

12 they sent a fax listing some of the volunteers that they knew as the

13 Spider Group, and he instructed me to find a way urgently to send those

14 people back.

15 Q. When they were sent back, were they tried? Were they prosecuted?

16 And for what?

17 A. Yes. After they were sent back from Kosovo and Metohija, they

18 were immediately arrested by the MUP, by the police, and charged and

19 prosecuted on charges of preparing an attempt on the life of the president

20 of the country, Mr. Milosevic. The allegation was that they had been

21 infiltrated by foreign countries with a mission to attempt to kill the

22 president, Milosevic.

23 Q. Did you have any information whether they were responsible for any

24 crimes over the duration of their stay in Kosovo and Metohija?

25 A. No. That group was only engaged in fighting for two or three days

Page 19780

1 in the area of Kosare border post, and they were not engaged in any other

2 assignment and they did not commit any crimes or offences for the duration

3 of their stay in Kosovo and Metohija.

4 Q. My last question about this: What kind of uniforms did they wear

5 while they were engaged in Kosovo those 15 days?

6 A. I did not tour and inspect other members of the group who were not

7 in the military police company, but I did inspect the military police

8 company. It was my duty. And I always saw them wearing the regular

9 uniforms of the Army of Yugoslavia.

10 Q. Thank you, General. We have heard a Prosecution witness here,

11 K73, and in his evidence he stated that part of the 72nd Specialised

12 Brigade was under your command, that they received orders from you to

13 stage attacks on civilians in order to blame them later on the KLA. Are

14 these allegations correct?

15 A. What the witness said is a blatant lie. Never, not before and not

16 during the war, did I have command over the 72nd Specialised Brigade or

17 any part thereof or any other special or specialised unit. On orders of

18 the corps commander, I had the obligation to take one battalion of the

19 72nd Specialised Brigade and drive them to Nasec village in the area of

20 Prizren. That village is on the river-bank of the Beli Drim River. I was

21 to put them up in an abandoned vacation home for children.

22 I later learned that that part of the 72nd Specialised Brigade was

23 assigned to enforce in-depth security in that area, because it's on the

24 border.

25 Q. Did you or any other officer ever order that attacks on civilians

Page 19781

1 be staged, orchestrated?

2 A. I never heard this allegation before, and it -- it is terribly

3 odd. The military security service of the Pristina Corps had all sorts of

4 information about all sorts of things, but we never ever had any

5 intelligence that would indicate that any member of the army ordered any

6 other members of the army to stage manage an attack on civilians in order

7 to blame that attack on the terrorist organisation of the KLA.

8 Q. General, I have just one more set of questions, brief questions,

9 and not many of them, that has to do with the evidence of another witness,

10 who was not protected, whom we heard before. Did you know Captain First

11 Class Nike Peraj from the 52nd artillery rocket Brigade of the

12 anti-aircraft defence?

13 A. Yes, I knew him very well.

14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we briefly move

15 into private session? I would like to ask a question that might identify

16 somebody.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Identify somebody who needs protection, you mean?

18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes. I -- I don't know if I should

19 say it in open session. Maybe that itself could point a finger at the

20 person who needs it.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well. We'll hear the evidence in private

22 session.

23 [Private session]

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 19782











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10 (redacted)

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19 [Open session]

20 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stojanovic, we need a break at this stage.

22 Could you please leave the courtroom with the usher. That break will be

23 for half an hour.

24 [The witness stands down]

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic, my information from the Detention Unit

Page 19785

1 is that you haven't made a -- a request for a special arrangement to be

2 made tomorrow.

3 MR. LUKIC: It's a strange --

4 JUDGE BONOMY: And if you do so --

5 MR. LUKIC: -- Information, because we did, really. Mr. Ivetic

6 spoke directly with Mr. Tim McFadden.


8 MR. LUKIC: First we spoke with Maja Marinovic, and she directed

9 us to speak with Mr. McFadden.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, perhaps something more formal was expected.

11 However, you should now make a formal request and let's see what

12 happens as a result of that.

13 MR. LUKIC: Okay. Thank you, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: And that -- I mean now -- by saying "now," I mean

15 now.

16 We shall -- we'll resume at 11.15, since we're going to make as

17 big an effort as we can to complete this witness's evidence.

18 --- Recess taken at 10.48 a.m.

19 --- On resuming at 11.19 a.m.

20 [The accused Milutinovic not present].

21 JUDGE BONOMY: I note that Mr. Milutinovic is unwell and is not in

22 court at this stage but has consented to the continuation of the

23 proceedings in his absence.

24 Mr. Lukic.

25 MR. LUKIC: Yes. Your Honour, just one sentence. We sent a

Page 19786

1 formal request to the -- to Mr. McFadden to the Detention Unit regarding

2 our visit tomorrow to Mr. Lukic.

3 [The witness takes the stand]

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well. I hope you will get an early reply, and

5 if there remains a problem, let me know.

6 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.

7 MR. STAMP: As we are discussing matters involving Mr. Lukic, I

8 was wondering if I could inquire through the Court whether there is an

9 intention to comply with the Court's order of the 5th of October and when.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stamp, that is being dealt with.

11 MR. STAMP: Very well.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: I am specifically dealing with it at the break

13 along with many other things.

14 MR. STAMP: Very well, I'm sorry.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: It is being treated as a matter of urgency.

16 MR. STAMP: Thank you.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Please continue, Mr. Bakrac.

18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. General, tell me, Captain Nike Peraj, what duty did he have in the

20 unit of the 52nd arbr PVO?

21 A. In the course of the war, Captain Peraj Nike, in the command of

22 the 52nd artillery rocket Brigade of the anti-aircraft defence performed

23 the duty of assistant commander for the garrison.

24 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch the last word of

25 the reply.

Page 19787

1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. And was he --

3 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel repeat the question, please.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, he was one of the desk officers.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: We've lost the interpretation at this stage.

6 The last word of your last answer was not picked up. You said

7 that he was assistant commander for the garrison; is that correct?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I said that Captain

9 Peraj Nike was the assistant commander of the brigade for garrison

10 affairs.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

12 Mr. Bakrac.

13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. And in the nature of this duty, was he a member of the collegium

15 of the brigade commander?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Could he attend collegium meetings?

18 A. No.

19 Q. General, Witness Peraj stated here that he attended a meeting

20 between you; the chief of the Djakovica SUP, Kovacevic; the chief of the

21 Djakovica SDB, Cakcamovic [as interpreted]; and a certain man,

22 Major Micunovic, in a house in Djakovica when you allegedly on the

23 occasion of the death of your relative Prascevic said that an action had

24 to be carried out in the Caragoj Valley and that at least 100 people

25 killed and that you would get approved for this from Pavkovic. Is this

Page 19788

1 claim by Witness Peraj correct?

2 A. This is a completely incorrect allegation. I never attended a

3 single meeting like that. And some of the persons mentioned by Mr. Peraj

4 here are persons whom I do not know. For example, Mr. Kovacevic, as you

5 said; nor did I ever say anything like that.

6 Q. Did you attend the funeral of your brother-in-law Prascevic?

7 A. No, I did not attend the funeral of my brother-in-law Prascevic,

8 but a day before the funeral I went to express my condolences to the

9 family. Mr. Peraj Nike was present at the time. He also came to offer

10 his condolences, and he was a member of the late Prascevic -- a friend -

11 the interpreter's correction - of the late Prascevic.

12 Q. When you were there to express your condolences to the family, did

13 you say something like that when you were there to condole with the

14 family?

15 A. No. The condolences were being offered in the courtyard of the

16 family house. Mr. Peraj was sitting on a bench with several other people.

17 There were about 100 people present. I approached him, and he also

18 expressed his condolences to me. We didn't talk. We just drank a glass

19 of brandy, and then I had to leave because of my duties.

20 Q. The same witness in his testimony stated that the commander of the

21 Pristina Corps, Lazarevic, in the course of 1999 spent some time in

22 Djakovica and that every day, either in the SUP building or in the

23 building of the Municipal Assembly of Djakovica, meetings were held of the

24 leading people in the army, the MUP, and the municipal authorities, and

25 that at these meetings General Lazarevic was occasionally present. Do you

Page 19789

1 have any information to that effect?

2 A. General Lazarevic, in the course of 1999, to the best of my

3 recollection, spent time in the Djakovica garrison in early April, when

4 there were major problems concerning the Kosare border post, and there was

5 a major offensive going on by Albanian terrorists from the territory of

6 Albania. To the best of my recollection, there was another time when he

7 spent time in the Djakovica garrison in the course of the war, and that

8 would be in the second half of May.

9 As regards the meetings you mentioned here that were allegedly

10 held in the municipal building, to the best of my knowledge, according to

11 the report by the organ of security of that unit, the 52nd Rocket Brigade,

12 I knew that the brigade commander, as the garrison commander,

13 Colonel Djorsan [phoen], occasionally went to see the chief of the SUP and

14 the president of the municipality in order to regulate certain matters

15 concerning the garrison, and that was part of his job description as

16 garrison commander.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: That hasn't answered your question, I don't think.

18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Are you aware -- you said that General Lazarevic was in the -- he

20 was in Djakovica on -- only on two occasions, once in April and once in

21 May.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. In view of this, could he have attended those meetings?

24 A. Certainly not.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Can I just go back a little, Mr. Bakrac, to page

Page 19790

1 47, lines 5 and 6.

2 What are the correct names that should be there, the name of the

3 relative and then -- I think it was the Caragoj Valley. So that we get

4 this accurately reflected in the record.

5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that was the question

6 before this, and well, the interpretation was relative. It wasn't

7 relative. It was that Witness Peraj said that this witness, Stojanovic,

8 attended a meeting with the chief of the Djakovica SUP, Kovacevic; the

9 chief of the Djakovica SDB, Camovic; and a certain Major Micunovic in a

10 house in Djakovica.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: On the occasion of the death of whom?

12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] On the occasion of the death of MUP

13 member Prascevic and that allegedly this witness said that in the Caragoj

14 Valley, because of Prascevic's death, at least 100 people should be

15 killed. The Caragoj Valley, your witness -- Your Honour, is what the

16 witness has already testified about.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. That clarifies it.

18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. General, in 1999, was the forward command post in Pristina taken

20 up? In Djakovica, excuse me. My mistake.

21 A. In Djakovica, up to the beginning of April, I think, the command

22 group was operating. And as of early April, there was a forward command

23 post of the Pristina Corps at which the chief -- Chief of Staff of the

24 corps, Colonel Veroljub Zivkovic was constantly present with a group of

25 officers.

Page 19791

1 Q. General, tell me, let's just take a look at another exhibit. I

2 have two more questions. Let's look at 5D995.

3 General, in item 3 it says -- this is a report --

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Before you go on, I'm trying to understand the last

5 answer. And it's perhaps some confusion caused by the question.

6 The question was: Was the forward command post in -- in Djakovica

7 taken up? It possibly was differently expressed in Serbian. I don't

8 know. But your answer is not clear. Can you deal with that again,

9 please.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the Djakovica garrison as of

11 March and throughout March, from the beginning of the NATO air-strikes,

12 until early April, there was a command group of the Pristina Corps. And

13 then as of the beginning of April, there was a permanent forward command

14 post of the Pristina Corps, headed by the Chief of Staff of the corps,

15 Colonel Veroljub Zivkovic.

16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. General, do you know the following persons: Captain

18 Zoran Ristovski, Stefanovic Aleksandar, and Nebojsa Jovanovic, and those

19 two were sergeants first class [as interpreted].

20 A. I am familiar with only two of those, Ristovski and Stefanovic.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Staff sergeant. Interpreter's correction.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were members of the military

23 security service tasked with the airport of Slatina, near Pristina. And

24 professionally and -- they were not subordinated to the security organs of

25 the Pristina Corps but, rather, as regards their military occupational

Page 19792

1 specialty, they were subordinated to the security organs of the command of

2 the air force and anti-aircraft defence.

3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Were they arrested in the course of 1999, somewhere in late May?

5 A. Yes. And you can see that from this document.

6 Q. Did you personally or your -- or Nesic, in the security organ,

7 exert any pressure on the prosecutor, Djorovic Lakic, to drop the charges

8 against these two?

9 A. The security organs of the Pristina Corps and the military police

10 organs never. And - and that include the period of the war - exerted any

11 kind of pressure on the military investigating organs. And in this

12 particular case that you're asking me about specifically, it's not clear

13 why we would exert pressure on the competent judicial organs when it was

14 we, ourselves, who arrested those persons and handed them over to the

15 court.

16 Q. Thank you, General. I have only one more question. Let's look at

17 Exhibit 6D142. And I'll tell you right away why I'm showing you this

18 exhibit. Prosecution witness Merovci in his testimony before this Court

19 stated that from the wife of Fehmi Agani he heard that this man had been

20 killed by the army. Do you know anything? And if so, what do you know

21 about the murder of Fehmi Agami?

22 A. I can't see the document on my screen, but I can answer your

23 question. The Army of the FRY has nothing to do with the murder of

24 Mr. Fehmi Agani, nor did any other organ send to representatives of the

25 army any request to collect information or evidence that might indicate

Page 19793

1 that the army had participated in the murder.

2 Q. Thank you, General.

3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, there seems to be a

4 problem with this exhibit, but we have referred to it and it already has

5 an exhibit number, so we can see from it that the proper procedure was

6 undertaken and a criminal report filed against persons unknown.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Bakrac,

8 the exhibit is under seal, but it is there.

9 Can you tell me the number of the previous exhibit that was

10 referred to by the witness, but I have no recollection of a number being

11 called up.

12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] 5D995.

13 Your Honour, these were all my questions, unless -- because at the

14 end of yesterday's session, Your Honours asked the witness to try to

15 recall certain officers. Would you like me to probe this further?

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, please.

17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. General, I have no further questions. But yesterday, at the end

19 of the day, His Honour Judge Bonomy asked you if you can recall any other

20 officers who were prosecuted or any commander.

21 A. Yes, certainly. I did my best to recollect. A lot of time has

22 elapsed, but I will mention a few cases. The following was arrested and

23 prosecuted: Lieutenant-Colonel Stosic from the 37th Motorised Brigade,

24 because he ordered two men from his unit to murder six civilians in the

25 village of Gornja Klina in Srbica municipality. Also, the following was

Page 19794

1 arrested and prosecuted: Captain First Class Dragisa, company commander

2 in the 202nd Rear Base, because in the village of Susica near Pristina he

3 ordered his subordinates, a sergeant and a conscript, to kill two Albanian

4 villagers who were elderly.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat this name.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Further --

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Could you repeat the name of that offender, Captain

8 First Class ...?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Dragica Petrovic.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Also, Captain First Class Vujadin

12 Stekovic was arrested and prosecuted. He was from the 549th Motorised

13 Brigade. Because in the village of Zagradska Hoca in Prizren

14 municipality, using his own weapon, he killed four Albanian villagers.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Were any of the -- is that it?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, there were more. I

17 can give you some more names.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Please continue.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A military disciplinary court saw

20 Vojnova Ratkovic [phoen], the commander of the 7th Detachment of the -- of

21 the -- the 7th Infantry Brigade was brought to court and prosecuted for

22 the looting carried out by members of his unit, and the Chief of Staff --

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Again, the name has not been picked up. What was

24 the name?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The commander of the 7th Detachment

Page 19795

1 of the 7th Infantry Brigade, whose name was Ratkovic,

2 Lieutenant-Colonel Ratkovic. I can't remember his first name.

3 Somebody else who was replaced from duty as Chief of Staff of the

4 7th Light Infantry Brigade was Lieutenant-Colonel Lazovic, for reasons of

5 desertion -- or rather, because a large -- many members of his unit

6 deserted.

7 And yesterday I said that the other place -- person who was

8 replaced was the commander of the 175th Infantry Brigade,

9 Colonel Petkovic, as well as his Chief of Staff. He was replaced too;

10 Lieutenant-Colonel Zoran Djurasovic was his name. And the chief of the

11 security organ in that place was also replaced. And that was Major Panic,

12 Miroslav Panic. All three men were replaced because they had failed to

13 take the necessary steps and in the area of their responsibility members

14 of their units had perpetrated crimes. They had not taken steps to

15 prevent that.

16 And yesterday I mentioned the example of the arrest of a

17 volunteer, Vlado Zmajevic, along with seven [Realtime transcript read in

18 error "several"] other volunteers for the crimes they had committed in

19 Zegra.

20 And today, I'd like to add to that the following: The arrest of a

21 volunteer by the name of Subotic, who introduced himself as

22 Colonel Subotic, and a group of volunteers from the same brigade who had

23 committed crimes in the village of Prilepnica, Gnjilane municipality.

24 We learnt of their crimes after the corps commander, who was angry

25 because of what had happened in the village of Zegra, had expelled about

Page 19796

1 40 volunteers from the area, from the territory of Kosovo. And then we,

2 at the level of the security sector of the Pristina Corps Command

3 established -- set up a whole team to take stock of the situation on the

4 ground, and then we received information that that group of volunteers,

5 with Mr. Subotic, had committed crimes in the village of Prilepnica too,

6 the ones I mentioned a moment ago.

7 An order was issued straight away to uncover the -- the volunteers

8 via the security sector of the 3rd Army, and they were all arrested in the

9 Valjevo area and prosecuted.

10 Furthermore --

11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] When you say "in the area of

12 Valjevo," tell us where Valjevo is located. In what territory?

13 A. So, it is west of Belgrade.

14 Q. What I mean is, is Valjevo on the territory of Serbia or in Kosovo

15 and Metohija?

16 A. Well, Kosovo and Metohija is part of Serbian territory too.

17 Q. I'm just asking you for the purposes of these proceedings to be

18 more specific.

19 A. It is in the territory of Serbia proper.

20 Q. That's what I wanted to hear. Thank you.

21 A. And then somebody else who was replaced and prosecuted was a

22 security organ official of the 2nd Battalion of the 549th Motorised

23 Brigade, and that was Major Zlatan Mancic, because he had ordered two

24 soldiers to shoot and kill two local villagers in the village of Kusljin

25 in the municipality of Djakovica.

Page 19797

1 Mr. President, there are many others, many other officers who were

2 prosecuted for having failed to take the necessary measures to protect the

3 units. And because of their omissions in exercising command for the crime

4 of theft and for crimes of looting and also for crimes of seizing vehicles

5 belonging to other people. All this information and much more data is to

6 be found in the records of the military courts of the set districts.

7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I don't know whether that is

8 sufficient, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bakrac, which of your documents reflects this

10 information?

11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that during the

12 testimony of General Lazarevic we showed one document, one particular

13 document. I don't know if it contained all this information, but I do

14 know for certain that we did produce the document in the 5D documents, the

15 report of the Pristina Corps Command of the 15th of May, if I remember

16 correctly, informing the units about the measures and steps taken against

17 the officers of the Pristina Corps. And 5D -- the number of the 5D

18 document is -- well, I can provide you with that 5D number a little later

19 on, after I've checked it out, but it is an exhibit.

20 And we also have the testimony of General Gojovic, who testified

21 in the defence of General Ojdanic, who also gave us information about

22 crimes that were prosecuted. And my colleague, Mr. Cepic, will be dealing

23 with the questioning of judges -- or rather, one judge and one prosecutor

24 of the military court attached to the Pristina Corps and the Pristina

25 military district.

Page 19798

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] That will be all, Your Honour.

3 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honour, if I just may be of assistance. One

4 intervention. In transcript 55, 3 and 4, the witness, I believe, said

5 when he was talking about Vlado Zmajevic, a volunteer, he said along with

6 seven other volunteers.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: He did indeed. That's what I've noted.

8 MR. ZECEVIC: And the -- and the crimes that were committed in the

9 village of Zegra.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah. Thank you.

11 I understand you have questions, Mr. Fila?

12 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

13 Cross-examination by Mr. Fila:

14 Q. [Interpretation] A general question to start off with. General,

15 the Trial Chamber and Defence counsel, Bakrac, dealt with your knowledge

16 of a possible meeting of the Joint Command in 1999 where General Lazarevic

17 would have to be present, and so on. Now, you were in charge of his

18 security, as far as I understand it, the command of the Pristina Corps,

19 and your people, people subordinate to you, provided security for the

20 command of the Pristina Corps. Is that right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. We also learnt during the testimony of General Lazarevic that the

23 forward command post of the 3rd Army was in the command post of the

24 Pristina Corps and that General Pavkovic, as commander of the 3rd Army,

25 was present there. Is that right? During the war, of course.

Page 19799

1 A. During the war, it was in the area of deployment of the command

2 post of the Pristina Corps, but not physically in the same place.

3 Q. All right. Now, who provided security for General Pavkovic at the

4 time when he was there? Who was the security detail in the region where

5 General Lazarevic was too? Who was responsible for his security? You or

6 somebody else?

7 A. According to the rules and regulations that were in force

8 regulating security for high-level military personnages state that if any

9 high-ranking military leader from the superior command was in the area of

10 responsibility of a lower command, then responsibility for his security

11 was borne by the command on whose territory the person was located, and

12 therefore it was my duty during General Pavkovic's stay - of course, in

13 addition to one or two security details - to provide security for

14 General Pavkovic.

15 THE INTERPRETER: A little slower, please. Would the speakers

16 kindly slow down, thank you.

17 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Now, if General Pavkovic were to attend those meet, for instance,

19 in addition to General Lazarevic -- and you've explained that to us

20 already - would you have to provide security or your people would have to

21 provide security for him too, or not? Yes or no?

22 A. Certainly if there were meetings of the command.

23 Q. It is logical to assume that General Lazarevic would not have a

24 meeting with himself, nor would General Pavkovic have a meeting with

25 himself. Then in this Joint Command they would have had to have met with

Page 19800

1 someone else, apart from themselves.

2 Now, by virtue of the Prosecution's position and in the

3 indictment, those people who were -- those peoples that would have

4 meetings would be Nikola Sainovic and at least three to four policemen:

5 General Sreten Lukic, Rodja Djordjevic, Obrad Stevanovic, or somebody like

6 that. So that would be a serious set of people.

7 Now, how would you provide security for them to be there together

8 to support the indictment?

9 A. Well, certainly if a meeting of that level with such distinguished

10 people were to be held, then, of course, I, as the chief of security of

11 the military police would have certain responsibilities and authority in

12 the sense of providing broader security for the area and more detailed

13 forms of security.

14 Q. Would there be police security and would there be security for

15 Nikola Sainovic too? Would they be present too, the security details for

16 them?

17 A. Of course. I'm sure that their security -- that it was the MUP

18 who were in charge of their security on the basis of the rules and

19 regulations.

20 Q. Thank you. I think that's clear now. I won't ask you about that.

21 I'll move on.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Before you move on, are you saying that there was

23 no point in time when General Pavkovic and General Lazarevic would be

24 together in the one building or place at the centre of both their command

25 posts; that they were physically -- always physically in separate places?

Page 19801

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the forward command

2 post of the 3rd Army, and the command post of the Pristina Corps were not

3 in the same location. And according to the rules, they cannot be in the

4 same location. However, the command of the 3rd Army, General Pavkovic,

5 and the commander of the Pristina Corps, General Lazarevic, could

6 physically be at the same place together, but on the basis of the

7 regulations you can't have the commander of one and the same unit and his

8 Chief of Staff. They can't be physically in the same place or transported

9 physically in the same vehicle, because if anything were to happen to

10 them, the command wouldn't be able to function without them.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

12 Mr. Fila.

13 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Let's go back for a moment to the 1st of June meeting, 1st of

15 June, 1999. And I want to ask you first, General: When you described

16 those present, of the police force you just mentioned

17 General Sreten Lukic. So I'd ask you ask you now whether Obrad -- or

18 rather, Stevanovic and Obrad Djordjevic may have been present as well?

19 A. No. As far as I remember, I'm quite sure about the persons that I

20 said attended. I'm sure about those. But possibly there was another MUP

21 representative, but I'm quite certain that General Djordjevic was not

22 present or the other man you mentioned.

23 Q. Obrad Stevanovic.

24 A. No, he wasn't there.

25 Q. All right. Thank you, General.

Page 19802

1 Now I'm going to ask you briefly about something else, not to use

2 up our valuable court time.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah. Well, I'm sorry about that again, but two

4 names you gave just now were -- I'm confused now. Now, I'm sure

5 Djordjevic's first name is not Obrad. We've got Obrad Stevanovic now

6 but --

7 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] General Obrad Stevanovic and

8 General Vlastimir Djordjevic is his proper name. Rodja is a nickname. So

9 Vlastimir is his first name.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

11 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

12 Q. I'm going to go through these questions very quickly. Just "yes"

13 or "no" answers, please. The meetings that you attended, was it a meeting

14 of the Joint Command at all, in your opinion, knowledge, awareness, or

15 anything else?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Did you gain the impression that at that meeting a report was

18 being tabled or that any orders were being issued at all? Yes or no?

19 A. No, I did not gain that impression.

20 Q. Now, in a word, would you tell me the following -- or in a

21 sentence, because you can't say "yes" or "no." How did you understand the

22 reason for Sainovic's attendance at that meeting? Why was he there?

23 A. Well, I think that I share the opinion of all those present. At

24 the meeting I understood the presence of Mr. Sainovic at that meeting as

25 his presence there in his capacity of a high-ranking state official who

Page 19803

1 had come to inform us that there would be the signing of an agreement in

2 the future. And that was the condition for NATO to stop its bombing and

3 that the army and MUP would be withdrawing from Kosovo on the basis of

4 that.

5 Q. Thank you. Now, Sainovic, did he issue any orders to anyone at

6 that meeting, any type of order whatsoever? Yes or no?

7 A. Oh, please. I've said a number of times. The meeting lasted for

8 just 10 to 15 minutes, and nobody issued anybody else any order

9 whatsoever.

10 Q. We're now going to deal with Vasiljevic's testimony, who was heard

11 in this court of law, General Aleksandar Vasiljevic testified here. And

12 he said --

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Sorry, Mr. -- Mr. Fila. Just to be clear about

14 this, the impression you gave earlier in your evidence was that

15 Mr. Sainovic and Andjelkovic came in and just sat down as if that was

16 routine. Would it be wrong to get that impression?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President. Your impression

18 is wrong. When we were sitting down, they came into the room afterwards.

19 And out of respect, we got to our feet. We stood up. And then there was

20 a short briefing of 10 to 15 minutes.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Well your answer earlier was, "When we were

22 sitting -- when we were sitting down, Mr. Sainovic came in and Mr.

23 Andjelkovic and they sat down at the same table as General Pavkovic and

24 Lazarevic. We were sitting next to them." And the whole impression of

25 that answer was this is just a routine arrival. But you say not?

Page 19804

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it's a standard

2 behaviour in the army that when somebody senior comes in, out of respect,

3 out of good manners -- they sat in front of us. Everyone else was sitting

4 down. But we got up when they came in. It was a round table. Nobody

5 wrote anything down. They just listened to what was being said. I don't

6 really know what else I can say.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

8 Mr. Fila.

9 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Did anybody chair that meeting? Did Sainovic chair it, for

11 instance?

12 A. No, nobody was the chairman. I just said that General Pavkovic

13 introduced Mr. Sainovic, saying he had come to inform us.

14 Q. You said that you left the meeting, you and General Vasiljevic.

15 So you didn't stay for dinner. Is my understanding correct?

16 A. I'm not aware of any dinner after the meeting.

17 Q. Earlier on, responding to a question from the Bench and from

18 Defence counsel, you said that General Vasiljevic stayed for a few days on

19 his visit to Kosovo and Metohija. At any point during his visit did you

20 speak, did you tell General Vasiljevic anything about a Joint Command?

21 A. No, we never discussed it.

22 Q. I will now read to you exactly what General Vasiljevic said in his

23 evidence. If somebody is very curious, I'll give a reference. So

24 Vasiljevic says that he received information from you. Page 8802. When

25 you were going back from that meeting at the Pristina Corps -- you said

Page 19805

1 you never went to the Pristina Corps at all. Anyway, on your way to the

2 building where security offices were - that's Exhibit P2594, paragraph

3 83 - to the effect that the Joint Command is a mini Supreme Command in

4 Kosovo and Metohija that, it's a dislocated command post - Exhibit 2594,

5 paragraph 7 - that the Joint Command was set up in 1998; that

6 General Dimitrijevic asked from you that you should report on the work of

7 that command, because there was no need for you to participate in it,

8 since high-ranking officials from Belgrade were present, Minic, Matkovic,

9 Sainovic - P2594, paragraph 84 - any of these things I've just said? Is

10 anything correct?

11 A. Everything you've said is completely inaccurate.

12 Q. I'll ask you something else now. That 10 to 15-minute meeting

13 that you spoke about, did anybody keep notes? Did anybody make a record?

14 A. Let me repeat. Nobody kept minutes or a record. Nobody even took

15 notes.

16 Q. Did General Vasiljevic note anything down in a notepad or a

17 notebook that you could see?

18 A. I can't recall, but it seems to me that neither he or I had a

19 notebook or a notebook -- notepad. I don't recall that anybody opened any

20 kind of notepad or notebook or took any notes at all.

21 Q. General Vasiljevic, in his interview to the OTP on the 22nd

22 November 2001, Exhibit 6D158, page 33 - in the English version, it's page

23 43 - I can call it up on the screen, and perhaps it's even better for you

24 to see it.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: That number is accurate, 6D158?

Page 19806

1 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] 6D158. Page 33 in B/C/S -- in Serbian,

2 rather; and 43 in English.

3 Could we zoom in. I can give you a hard copy, but still we need

4 to zoom in.

5 Q. This passage begins -- read from line 20 in Serbian.

6 [Defence counsel confer]

7 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Will you please read from the words "I did not." Do you see it?

9 Somewhere in the middle.

10 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Can I ask you, Mr. Fila, what your purpose is in

12 referring to this document?

13 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Well, the purpose is that

14 General Vasiljevic says here that he had not even taken a notebook with

15 him and he didn't have it there. The purpose is to establish what

16 General Vasiljevic said in his interview, and then I'll come to what he

17 testified before you.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: But did you put this to General Vasiljevic as

19 contradicting his evidence? I doubt it, because --

20 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Mr. Ivetic did that.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Well --

22 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Because that's when the notebook

23 appeared. Why should I show it when Ivetic was doing that?

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, well --

25 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I am keeping --

Page 19807

1 JUDGE BONOMY: As long as someone has done it, that's enough. But

2 my information is that this document has not been exhibited. And this is

3 the first -- this is its first introduction.

4 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Well, I announced it to the Prosecution

5 and said that I will tender it.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: It's not part of the case at the moment. And are

7 you -- are you -- are you seriously intending to -- to introduce it?

8 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] This passage, I want to use. Only that

9 passage. Only that one page.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that can very well lead to extensive other

11 parts of it being used by the Prosecution. But if you're happy with that.

12 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Let him use whatever. It is of no

13 consequence to me what the Prosecutor will use. I never objected to

14 anything of the sort, because I'm sure that what is there is what I think

15 and cannot say.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: There's an issue -- there's an issue here that we

17 have to resolve. I'm -- I'm not understanding at the moment what it is

18 you're trying to do.

19 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I am trying to have read a

20 part of the exhibit used by Mr. Ivetic. In that sentence, it reads

21 that --

22 JUDGE BONOMY: He did not use that exhibit, Mr. Fila.

23 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] He put it in the system and gave it the

24 number 6D158. Now I want to use that passage.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: For what --

Page 19808

1 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I'm seeking leave to -- to show that in

2 the interview he said what is written there and in the next piece of

3 evidence, you will see what that same man, Vasiljevic, said sitting before

4 you. I want to establish which of the two is true. Because there is a

5 difference between what he said in the interview and what he said sitting

6 before you, in his testimony, and, again, what this witness is saying.

7 And General Vasiljevic is a very important witness for 1999, and it's very

8 important to me.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

10 Mr. Stamp, your submissions on this, please.

11 MR. STAMP: Thank you. Now that Mr. Fila has indicated what he

12 proposes to do with that document, this is not something for this witness

13 to comment upon. The witness has said quite -- has said more than

14 once, "I cannot recall if anyone had any notebook or if -- or took notes."

15 And therefore if there is something that Vasiljevic might have said in one

16 place or in another place, then this witness is not in a position to

17 comment on that, having regard to his evidence.

18 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] The witness can tell us what exactly

19 happened. The witness, Your Honours, will tell us what really happened

20 according to him. And I'm showing him what General Vasiljevic said and

21 that pertains directly to this witness. And after testifying before you,

22 after Vasiljevic testifying before you, this workbook, this notebook

23 appeared, and it became a piece of evidence. That's why it's important,

24 because we don't know --

25 JUDGE BONOMY: That's enough, I think. We don't want to undermine

Page 19809

1 the witness's evidence by discussing what -- what you may be about to ask

2 him.

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Fila, we do not consider that presenting this

5 statement to the witness is the way to go about this exercise. This is

6 not something that's part of the evidence in this case at this moment. It

7 may yet become part of the evidence in some way or other, but it can't be

8 introduced as evidence through the questions you're asking this witness.

9 On the other hand, you can put the meat of what's in the

10 statement, the -- the propositions that are in the statement, and ask the

11 witness whether he agrees or disagrees with them. But they should not be

12 put as specific quotations from Vasiljevic in an interview that he had

13 with the Office of the Prosecution.

14 Thank you.

15 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you. Even that will be quite

16 sufficient.

17 Q. Well, then, you see, I told you General Vasiljevic first said he

18 did not have a notebook, that he didn't keep notes, and you confirmed

19 that. Is that consistent with your recollection? That's how it happened?

20 A. Yes.

21 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Is this appropriate?

22 JUDGE BONOMY: So you've been listening into the evidence in the

23 case. Is that what you're saying?

24 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] No, no, I asked only about notes. Is

25 that consistent with his recollection that on that occasion --

Page 19810

1 JUDGE BONOMY: This is what you mustn't do, Mr. Fila. If there's

2 something in there, you -- it's not appropriate to attribute it to

3 Vasiljevic in putting your question. You can put the hypothetical

4 position that if something was said, is that consistent with your

5 recollection of what actually happened on the occasion? Just get to the

6 heart of the matter. You're -- you're actually using this as a speech, as

7 a submission, and that's not appropriate either.

8 This witness is here to give us his recollection, not to comment

9 on -- on any discrepancies there may be between different versions given

10 by Vasiljevic or whether the versions are -- are consistent with each

11 other, or whatever. That's not his job. His job is to tell us what he

12 knows.

13 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, his job is to answer what

14 he remembers, and I'm asking him does he remember that General Vasiljevic

15 took notes or not on the occasion when they were at a meeting together?

16 That's quite simple. That's what I asked him.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Ask him.

18 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Did he take notes or not?

20 A. Neither General Vasiljevic or anyone else kept any notes.

21 Q. Now, let's make an assumption. If - if - General Vasiljevic were

22 to hand over a notebook to us with some notes in it that he allegedly had

23 taken on that occasion, would that be true or not?

24 A. There are rules in the Army of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia

25 that govern treatment of documents --

Page 19811

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Please -- please listen to the question. You're

2 not answering the question you've been asked. It's a matter of fact

3 you're being asked about. Whether it breaks the rules or is consistent

4 with the rules is neither here nor there. Just tell us if whether

5 General Vasiljevic handed over a notebook here, could that possibly be

6 notes taken on the occasion of that meeting. I know it's a silly

7 question, because you've already answered it, but never mind. You're

8 being asked it. So please try and answer.

9 In fact, what we should do, since there's confusion here. Mr. --

10 Mr. Fila, that question -- the answer to that question adds nothing to

11 what you've already heard from the witness. So let's go to another

12 question.

13 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] All right. We'll move on.

14 I would like Exhibit 2D391 to be shown. We did not see it before.

15 It's a letter from the government of Serbia to the National Committee, I

16 believe. And it's written there --

17 Page 1, please. In fact, page 2. Page 2, and then I'll tell you

18 briefly -- it's on the screen now.

19 Q. You will see it says in one passage that General Djakovic had

20 turned in his notebook from the said period; whereas, General Vasiljevic

21 did not.

22 I would like to know: Is there an obligation on the part of army

23 officers to turn in their workbooks once they are completed?

24 A. It is the duty of every professional member of the Army of the

25 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia to register duly every service notebook in

Page 19812

1 the register, and once a notebook is used up, he has to turn it in, in

2 order to be issued with another. Service notebooks constitute official

3 documents and correspondence according to the Rules of Yugoslavia and the

4 Rules of Treatment of Documentation prescribed for how long they are kept.

5 Q. If that had been done, then we would have been able to obtain a

6 copy of that blue notebook. We would know that it is the real one and how

7 it was kept, et cetera.

8 A. Yes.

9 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you. That was all.

10 [Trial Chamber confers]

11 JUDGE BONOMY: We note that the exhibit that's just been referred

12 to has not previously been exhibited in the case and that the witness has

13 no knowledge of the contents. He was simply telling us what the rules in

14 relation to notebooks are.

15 MR. FILA: [Microphone not activated]

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Mr. --

17 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] That's why I used it, only so that he

18 could answer the question.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Visnjic.

20 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21 Cross-examination by Mr. Visnjic:

22 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, General. My name is

23 Tomislav Visnjic, and I appear for General Ojdanic here. I'll put a few

24 questions to you.

25 During your examination-in-chief, you mentioned inter alia when

Page 19813

1 enumerating the organs active on the territory of Kosovo in 1998 and 1998

2 [as interpreted] counter-intelligence groups. General, am I correct in

3 saying that the domain that these counter-intelligence groups dealt with

4 was the protection of the Army of Yugoslavia from external threats to the

5 security of the units?

6 A. Well, yes, in a manner of speaking. But could you allow me to

7 clarify?

8 Q. Go ahead.

9 A. Counter-intelligence groups are expert teams composed of organs of

10 the military security service, and their main purpose is to monitor the

11 influence of the security situation on the territory on the security of

12 army personnel and facilities.

13 Q. Thank you. So these were not organs whose main task was to

14 detect, discover, and prosecute persons suspected of crimes which are

15 relevant for this Tribunal, crimes against humanity, the laws of war, and

16 so on.

17 A. Yes, I agree with that.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

20 Exhibit 3D721, page 2 in both B/C/S and English.

21 Q. General, we have before us a document which are minutes from the

22 evening briefing in the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia, and we

23 won't dwell on it for long. I'm only interested in one line in this

24 document. And in order to avoid going back to the previous page, it

25 begins with General Gajic's taking the floor. And what I'm interested in

Page 19814

1 is in the middle of this text, where he says: "A group of 32 volunteers

2 was sent back from Kosovo and Metohija (seven looted)," and so on.

3 General, this is a piece of information which was discussed at the

4 evening briefing in the Supreme Command Staff. Is this information you

5 are aware of and was it sent by the corps up the chain of command? The

6 date is the 3rd of April, 1999.

7 A. Yes, I think that this piece of information refers to something

8 I've just mentioned, concerning the problem of volunteers in the area of

9 Gnjilane and Zegra.

10 Q. Thank you, General. I don't need the details. I just wanted to

11 confirm that this information was sent on by the corps, that it was

12 forwarded by the corps.

13 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

14 Exhibit 3D589, page 1 in English and in B/C/S.

15 Q. General, this is another evening briefing in the Supreme Command

16 Staff, dated the 18th of April, 1999. And in item 1, the last three

17 lines -- or in item 2 it says: "I draw attention -- I would like to

18 mention the drastic case." That's in item 2, last paragraph -- "from the

19 52nd arbr PVO, regarding rape and looting," and so on.

20 And my question is the same as in the previous case. Is this

21 information that you are aware of and was it forwarded up the chain of

22 command?

23 A. Yes. These persons were prosecuted. This was a crime committed

24 in the village of Crnjani in the municipal assembly of Djakovica.

25 Q. Thank you. General, several witnesses testified about something I

Page 19815

1 would like to confirm with you now. Is it correct that every combat

2 report contains a special section, a separate section concerning security?

3 We have witnesses who even said that this was usually item 5 of a combat

4 report. Is that correct?

5 A. I don't know what the item number was in the combat report, the

6 one dealing with security, but I know that every combat report did contain

7 a section about security.

8 Q. And the security organ participated in this by delivering

9 information or drawing up the content, the text; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Thank you. We'll now move on to a new topic.

12 General, did you ever report -- when I say "you," I mean your

13 organ or the corps command - the following: Acting independently on the

14 ground, a member -- a number of members of the MUP and entire small units

15 are perpetrating grievous crimes against the Siptar civilian population in

16 villages or in refugee camps: Murders, rapes, looting, robbery,

17 aggravated theft, and so on, and they are deliberately ascribing these

18 crimes or preparing to ascribe them to units and individuals from the Army

19 of Yugoslavia?

20 A. I never said anything to this effect.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown Exhibit

23 3D493.

24 Q. General, we are moving on now to another topic. This is the

25 evening briefing in the Supreme Command Staff of the 8th of June, 1999.

Page 19816

1 And it's what General Geza Farkas said. I think that in e-court we have a

2 printed version of the same document, and it might be easier for the

3 witness to see the typed-out version. Thank you.

4 Could we turn to page 2 in B/C/S. Thank you. And also page 2 in

5 English.

6 General, you testified about the inspections which the security

7 organs of the General Staff conducted in the course of the war operations

8 and war activities. And this is a report -- or rather, it's what

9 General Farkas said at the briefing on the return of the second

10 inspection -- the completion of the second inspection by

11 General Vasiljevic and General Gajic.

12 I'll start with the part where he says:

13 "There are problems, humanitarian crime, an analysis -- a complete

14 analysis has been carried out under the leadership of the deputy chief of

15 the security administration. Most of the crimes have been documented and

16 are before the military judicial organs. There are serious crimes ranging

17 from looting or robbery to rape. There are all sorts of things. How far

18 have they got with the investigations if 95 per cent have been arrested

19 and are under investigation. There are some from our active units."

20 I would like to stop here. And my question, General, is the

21 following: Is this a summary of Generals -- of what Generals Gajic and

22 Vasiljevic established when visiting your units? And I am especially

23 referring to the very high percentage of crimes that had been processed.

24 A. Certainly. This is the gist of what they observed during their

25 tour, and they also mentioned the number I mentioned, of 95 per cent of

Page 19817

1 those prosecuted.

2 Q. Thank you, General. Let's now move on to another topic.

3 When testifying about a certain meeting which was held in Hotel

4 Grand, you said that the meeting was attended also by General Kovacevic.

5 I can't find the reference now, but it's in today's record. You said that

6 he was late for the meeting.

7 As far as I could understand, you said that the meeting lasted 10

8 to 15 minutes. General, do you allow for the possibility that

9 General Kovacevic turned up after the meeting was already over and that

10 you saw him there?

11 A. He came midway through the meeting. He was late for the

12 beginning. He had been on the ground, and he came back halfway through

13 the meeting.

14 Q. General, as far as I could understand, you do not have a notebook

15 and you are testifying relying on your memory. Is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

18 questions. For this witness.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Aleksic.

20 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

21 Cross-examination by Mr. Aleksic:

22 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, General.

23 A. Good afternoon.

24 Q. First I would like to ask you something about today's transcript

25 which is still not clear. On page 38, lines 14 to 18, when answering to a

Page 19818

1 question put by Mr. Bakrac about the "Pauk" or Spider Group, and you said:

2 "After the 1st of May I was called by the chief and then soon

3 after that I received a fax with the names of those persons".

4 Could you just clarify: Who called you up on the phone and from

5 whom you received this fax.

6 A. The chief of the security administration called me up. As for the

7 fax, I don't know who from the administration.

8 Q. Excuse me. Where did you get the fax from?

9 A. From the security administration of the Supreme Command Staff.

10 Q. Thank you, General. Yesterday during the examination-in-chief by

11 my colleague Mr. Bakrac, and also today, you said that the Military Police

12 Battalion of the Pristina Corps in the professional line of duty was

13 subordinated to you. I would like to ask you whether you are aware that

14 General Pavkovic before the war, before the war started, held a speech to

15 the members of the Military Police Battalion of the Pristina Corps.

16 A. Yes. General Pavkovic addressed -- well, he visited almost all

17 the units, including the 52nd Battalion of the military police.

18 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I need some guidance.

19 I would like to show the witness a video-clip, a brief one, but it's under

20 seal, because it was shown to a protected witness. I don't know whether

21 we should move into private session briefly, or maybe we can do that after

22 the break. Whatever Your Honours decide.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Does it show something that needs to be protected?

24 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] I don't think so.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, let's proceed with the video-clip, then.

Page 19819

1 MR. STAMP: No, no, I think it does. I think it -- if I -- you

2 see, I don't know where my friend is going with it. But if it is the same

3 clip I am thinking of, he may be asking him to identify someone who might

4 be protected. I ...

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Is that correct, Mr. Aleksic?

6 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] No, I won't be asking that. No, I

7 won't put that question.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, it sounds as though there's uncertainty, so

9 let's have it in private session.

10 [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by later order of the Chamber]

11 THE REGISTRAR: We're in private session, Your Honours.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: What's the number?

13 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it's 4D18, and we have

14 a transcript of General Pavkovic's speech accompanying the image, all in

15 the same exhibit.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: It looks as though you're going to have to proceed

17 without it, Mr. Aleksic. Can you ask your question without the exhibit?

18 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] I can try, Your Honour.

19 Q. General, do you know --

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. But may what is on my

21 screen be zoomed into. I can't see it properly.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: There shouldn't be anything on your screen.

23 Well, we'll adjourn just now and have a break. But you need to

24 think whether it's necessary to show videos like this to establish

25 anything in particular. We'll see that after lunchtime, when hopefully

Page 19820

1 there will be no technical glitches.

2 Again, please, Mr. Stojanovic, could you leave the courtroom with

3 the usher, and we will see you again at quarter to 2.00.

4 [The witness stands down]

5 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.47 p.m.

6 --- On resuming at 1.48 p.m.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: While the witness is coming in -- no. In fact,

8 I'll deal with it later when we're in open session. At the moment, we're

9 in private session.

10 [The witness takes the stand]

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Aleksic.

12 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I don't

13 think there are any more technical glitches, so perhaps we could see the

14 next exhibit.

15 4D18.

16 [Videotape played]

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Please -- please stop it. Are you wanting us to

18 hear what's being said? Because you did refer to a transcript.

19 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, yes. The transcript is

20 attached to what General Pavkovic says in English and Serbian.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: I hope, then, that the interpreters will translate

22 this as he speaks.

23 So let's go back and start it again.

24 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters do not have the transcript.

25 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

Page 19821

1 JUDGE BONOMY: The problem for all of us is we can't see the

2 transcript, and it's the same for the interpreters, without hard copy. So

3 how do you propose dealing with that?

4 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have the B/C/S in

5 hard copy, so perhaps we could put it on the ELMO and facilitate the

6 interpreters that way. Otherwise, technically I don't know how we can do

7 this. I understand that we can't see the image and for you to hear what

8 General Pavkovic said.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Just a second, I can actually get it on the other

10 screen here. Is that not possible for the interpreters?

11 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

12 JUDGE BONOMY: We can get it on the screen, so we can now view it

13 without the -- we don't need the interpretation. We can read it on the

14 other screen as it goes, so please continue with the film.

15 MR. STAMP: Your Honour, I just make the observation that we have

16 no information as to the provenance or -- well, it seems to be a record,

17 but we don't know where this is from. And I make the observation because

18 on the last time a video was played, it was played and then the witness

19 was told where it came from and what it's all about. So I'd ask that if

20 we're going to go through the same procedure, then the witness, not

21 counsel, be able to testify about it.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: You take that point, Mr. Aleksic, that once you've

23 shown it, you should ask the witness what he can tell us to identify what

24 this is, rather than put to him what you say it is. Okay?

25 So proceed.

Page 19822

1 [Videotape played]

2 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] Well, as far as terrorism is

3 concerned, that is, terrorist forces, we must deal with them very quickly

4 and efficiently, and there's no dilemma there. And then if we do have

5 such a strong opponent, then let him remain alone. However, we have to

6 bear in mind here that all other local traitors have to be dealt with,

7 those who have lately been arguing that we cannot oppose the entire world

8 and that we cannot fight against the entire world.

9 I don't know who it is that we are preparing to fight against, who

10 this whole world is. We are only preparing to defend our country,

11 regardless of the opponent who attacks it. Others are trying to argue

12 that certain Generals are --

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Please stop it. There's no need for us to go

14 through all of this.

15 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I agree, Your Honour.

16 Q. General, do you recognize this footage and were you present on

17 that occasion?

18 A. Yes, I do recognize the footage, the video. It was taken in the

19 barracks -- the Kosovski Junaci barracks in Pristina, just prior to the

20 NATO aggression, when the commander of the army, the commander of 3rd

21 Army, that is, General Pavkovic, and the commander of the Pristina Corps,

22 General Lazarevic, attended an exercise performed by members of the 52nd

23 Battalion of the military police on the training ground which was close

24 by. And you can see it on this footage. And afterwards, General Pavkovic

25 informed the composition of the 52nd Military Police Battalion, after the

Page 19823

1 exercise and training had been completed, he reported to -- informed them.

2 And I was present there too, although I can't see myself on the picture.

3 But he informed them about the current situation just before the NATO

4 bombing started.

5 Q. Thank you, General. Can you tell us, to the best of your

6 recollections, whether that was the only time that General Pavkovic

7 addressed the members of the Military Police Battalion from the beginning

8 of 1999, when he took over that duty as commander of the 3rd Army and up

9 to the war.

10 A. Yes. That was the only time he addressed them.

11 Q. Thank you, General.

12 I'd now like to move on to another area. Yesterday, during

13 Mr. Bakrac's examination, and today again, when Mr. Visnjic asked you, you

14 talked about the 14th Counter-Intelligence Group. And yesterday you said,

15 in response to a question from Mr. Bakrac, on page 57, that the 14th

16 Counter-Intelligence Group was --

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you now tell me why that was in private

18 session?

19 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I said there was no

20 need, and then my learned friend Mr. Stamp said we might run a risk, and

21 then you said that since we weren't sure and there were some doubts, we'd

22 go ahead with it that way.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stamp, why were we in private session?

24 MR. STAMP: The last time, I think, the Defence of Pavkovic used

25 this video with a witness or attempted to use this video, I think, they

Page 19824

1 wanted the witness to identify somebody on it.


3 MR. STAMP: And that person would have been a protected witness.

4 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Then we order that the private session that we've

6 just -- has just concluded will be made public, and we'll now return to

7 open session.

8 [Open session]

9 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: I will repeat that. The private session we've just

11 had that will be made public.

12 Mr. Aleksic, please.

13 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Q. General, let me repeat my question. Yesterday and today you said

15 something about the 14th Counter-Intelligence Group, and yesterday you

16 told Mr. Bakrac when he asked you that the 14th Counter-Intelligence Group

17 was directly subordinated to the security sector of the Supreme Command

18 Staff.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Does it emerge from that that the 14th Counter-Intelligence Group

21 was duty-bound to report back directly to its superior command?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Now on e-court may we have Exhibit

25 3D246, please.

Page 19825

1 Q. General, when the document comes up on our screens, take a look at

2 it and tell us if you recognize it; and if so, can you give us your

3 comments on paragraph 3, please. 3D246, please. It's not the right

4 document. 1046, not 246. 1046, please.

5 Shall we zoom in, General?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Can you tell us who is sending this, who it is addressed to, and

8 to give us your comments on paragraph 3.

9 A. This is a telegram of the 14th Counter-Intelligence Group from the

10 group, addressed to the security administration of the General Staff, to

11 the security organ of the 3rd Army, and to the security organ of the

12 Pristina Corps. And paragraph 3 deals with the following. It says that:

13 "A terrorist group from the area of Drenica ordered all the

14 Albanians from the village of Brusnik, Vucitrn municipality, to leave the

15 village because in the coming days they plan to conduct combat operations

16 there."

17 Q. Let me interrupt you there, General. As the security organ in the

18 corps, were you aware of this information, this report, at that time?

19 A. We exchanged -- we did exchange information with the security

20 organs of the 14th Counter-Intelligence Group, and I did know about them

21 on the basis of this kind of information that was sent out.

22 Q. Thank you, General.

23 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Now we may have on e-court Exhibit

24 4D511. 511.

25 Q. And while we're waiting for the document to appear on our screens,

Page 19826

1 General, once again, I'd like to ask you -- the number of the exhibit

2 again is 4D511. I don't think we have the right English translation on the

3 screen.

4 That's fine now.

5 General, may we have your comments, please, on this document.

6 Just looking at the first two paragraphs. I'm interested in the first two

7 paragraphs and your knowledge about that.

8 A. Yes. This is information from the security organ of the 14th

9 Counter-Intelligence Group, and it relates to the fact that in certain

10 settlements of Kosovska Mitrovica there were several thousand refugees and

11 that amongst those refugees there were several hundred members of the

12 Kosovo Liberation Army. That means that they had camouflaged themselves.

13 Well, we knew about this from other pieces of information that

14 after launching terrorist activities, they used the population to mask

15 themselves or to join the refugees and mask themselves that way so as to

16 prevent them coming into contact with the security forces.

17 Q. Thank you. And now the second paragraph.

18 A. I don't know what paragraph you mean.

19 Q. It says: "In the territory of Vucitrn municipality." That

20 paragraph. Did you receive the information contained in that paragraph?

21 A. Yes. And this was sent to the security organ of the Pristina

22 Corps, as we can see, and I did indeed receive this piece of information.

23 Q. Can you give us the date when this document was issued? Can we

24 see the date? Can you zoom out so we can see the whole document? The

25 B/C/S version, please.

Page 19827

1 A. Yes. This is -- this document is dated the 15th of April, 1999.

2 And in view of the location of the 14th Counter-Intelligence Group, I

3 received it the same day.

4 Q. Thank you, General.

5 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Now on e-court, please, the next

6 document P -- 5D1310. 5D1310, which was used yesterday -- or, rather,

7 mentioned yesterday by my learned friend, Mr. Bakrac, but he didn't dwell

8 on it. He just mentioned it in passing and it is linked to 5D1311.

9 Q. Would you please just comment on item 1, which is on page 1, and

10 paragraph 5, which is on page 2 of both the B/C/S and English versions.

11 A. This document refers to another document by which the security

12 section of the command of the 3rd Army is informing the security

13 administration of the Supreme Command Staff about the results of

14 information interviews with terrorists Aslan Sopi and another terrorist

15 who had been captured.

16 If you return the first page, I'll know who they are, their names.

17 And also, of the results of the operative activity of the security organ

18 and the consequences to the units of NATO air-strikes.

19 Q. General, is this information -- or rather, this report, is it

20 based on information delivered by you to the security organ of the

21 Pristina Corps?

22 A. Part of this information relates to information I sent to the

23 security section of the 3rd Army and the part concerning the results of

24 the information interviews with the two terrorists who had been arrested

25 is information which the security organs of the 3rd Army obtained

Page 19828

1 themselves in those interviews.

2 After the arrest of those two, I handed them over, together with a

3 criminal report, to the security organ of the 3rd Army, the security

4 section, that is.

5 Q. And with reference to item 5, did you have this information? Did

6 you know about this event? And was it you who reported about this to the

7 superior command?

8 A. Yes. Yesterday I spoke about the problems faced by the security

9 organs and the military police of the Pristina Corps in implementing their

10 prescribed duties. This item speaks of the escorting of two conscripts

11 from the Prizren Military Territorial Detachment to the Prizren detention,

12 where the military court had its seat, and these two conscripts and

13 members of the military police escorting them were kidnapped and their

14 fate is unknown to this day.

15 Q. Thank you, General. That's enough.

16 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Could we now have in e-court Exhibit

17 4D512. Let's look at page 1 first.

18 Q. Could you comment on who is sending this document, to whom.

19 A. This is a document sent by the security department of the 3rd Army

20 command. It's addressed to the security administration of the Supreme

21 Command Staff, and it refers to information --

22 Q. What's the date, General, please? Can you tell us the date?

23 A. The date is the 2nd of May, 1995 [as interpreted].

24 Q. Thank you.

25 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think there's a

Page 19829

1 misinterpretation. 89, line 10, it's May 1999, not 1995. In the

2 original, one can see it's the 2nd of May, the fifth month of 1999.

3 Could we see page 2 in both English and B/C/S. I'm interested in

4 item 8, General. If you can take a look and tell us whether you had

5 information to this effect?

6 A. Yes. Item 8 refers to some information that in Dren village,

7 Zubin Potok municipality, there was a massacre of civilians. We verified

8 this, we checked it, and sent a written report saying that we had not

9 found any information or any traces of this.

10 Q. Thank you, General.

11 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at item 12. It's on the

12 last page in B/C/S and on page 5 in English.

13 A. I understood you to ask me to comment on item 12. It refers to

14 the results of the work of the security organs of the army military police

15 of the 3rd Army. The number of criminal reports filed, and categories of

16 persons who had committed crimes.

17 Q. Thank you, General.

18 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Can we have in e-court 4D513,

19 please.

20 Q. I would like to know who sent this, to whom, and when. And if you

21 can comment on item 1. I think you've already referred to this, but I

22 would like you to confirm this information.

23 A. Yes. This is a document from the security organ of the 3rd Army,

24 addressed, again, to the security administration of the Supreme Command

25 Staff. And item 1 refers to something we've already mentioned here more

Page 19830

1 than once. It's the inadmissible conduct of certain individual soldiers

2 from the 52nd Artillery Brigade of the anti-aircraft defence in the

3 Djakovica municipality who were dealt with. They were prosecuted.

4 Q. What was the crime?

5 A. Rape.

6 Q. Thank you, General. There's one more point I'd like to ask you

7 about. There's no need to go into private session. But Witness K73

8 testified before this Tribunal. I don't have the exact page reference,

9 but I don't think this will be in dispute. And this witness said that

10 General Pavkovic, when addressing the members of the Military Police

11 Battalion of the Pristina Corps, said more or less the following: That

12 when the first NATO bomb landed, the soldiers of the Army of Yugoslavia

13 had to get the Albanians off their backs. And in a statement which is in

14 evidence, K73 said that he thought this referred to Albanian civilians.

15 In view of the post you held, do you know whether General Pavkovic

16 ever said anything like that to anyone -- anybody?

17 A. I said just a while ago that I attended a meeting in the Kosovski

18 Junaci barracks and that neither then nor on any other occasion did I hear

19 General Pavkovic give any such order.

20 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, General.

21 Your Honours, I have no further questions.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

23 Mr. Lukic.

24 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour, thank you.

25 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

Page 19831

1 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, General. My name is

2 Branko Lukic. I appear for the Defence of General Sreten Lukic before

3 this Tribunal today.

4 You gave us a broad picture, which is quite normal, in view of the

5 tasks you performed. I will have only a few questions for you,

6 pinpointing the police and the information you had at that period of time.

7 First, I wish to ask you: Did you know of the existence of

8 formations under the abbreviated name of OPG, operative -- did you know

9 about these OPGs in Kosovo at the time?

10 A. I heard about this when General Vasiljevic, whom we have already

11 mentioned, was there. And he said that at the Djakovica SUP there was

12 some sort of operative search group, or something like that, OPG, and he

13 said that he had heard of this from Captain Perovic. A pursuit or search

14 group.

15 I knew of the existence of intervention units in 1998, which were

16 to intervene if a MUP check-point on a road was attacked. I didn't know

17 about the existence of any other groups.

18 Q. Did you know at the time that they were part of the PJP units

19 within the MUP of the Republic of Serbia?

20 A. No, I wasn't aware of that. No.

21 Q. Did you hear of a crime that happened in Podujevo when a group was

22 brought there by buses?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Were you aware at the time that this group which committed that

25 crime were the SAG [as interpreted] reserve forces?

Page 19832

1 A. No, I was not aware of that. But if you want me to explain --

2 Q. Well, all I wanted to know was whether you knew they were SAJ

3 reserves?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Do you know whether the perpetrators were prosecuted and

6 sentenced, convicted?

7 A. Yes. I was the first to obtain such information personally. They

8 were prosecuted and tried.

9 Q. Thank you. Now I wish to ask you about the parapolice formations

10 in Kosovo and Metohija. Various witnesses in this trial mentioned

11 different formations which in 1999 were in Kosovo and Metohija. Some of

12 these formations were described as paramilitary or parapolice units by

13 witnesses. So I would like to ask you about some of these.

14 Are you aware that in Kosovo and Metohija there were parapolice or

15 paramilitary units called the Wolves of the Drina [Realtime transcript

16 read in error "Wolves of Drenica], led by Nedeljko Karisik? Also known as

17 "Legenda," who was the former commander of a special MUP unit, and that

18 they were stationed in Kosovo Polje? Was anything like that disclosed to

19 you in the course of your work?

20 A. No, there was no such unit on the territory of Kosovo and

21 Metohija. In view of the job I did, I'm sure I would have known about it,

22 had there been such a unit.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Just a transcript correction. It should be Wolves

24 of the Drina.

25 MR. LUKIC: That's right, Your Honour. Not Wolves of Drenica but

Page 19833

1 Wolves of Drina.

2 Another correction, Your Honour. My question was that this

3 commander of special MUP unit of -- of Republika Srpska. So it's from

4 Bosnia-Herzegovina, not MUP of Republic of Serbia. But I think that the

5 witness answered. If you want me to clarify it further --

6 JUDGE BONOMY: I don't think it's necessary now.

7 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. [Interpretation] General, in the course of your work, did you

9 obtain information that in Kosovo and Metohija there was active a

10 parapolice formation called Arkan's Tigers and that they were located in

11 Kosovo Polje?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Thank you. As you have not heard of that, I assume we may

14 conclude that you never obtained information that Goran Radosavljevic,

15 "Gurij," was in commander of that unit, Arkan's Tigers. There was a

16 witness who said that, so I have to ask you about it.

17 A. In Kosovo Polje, to the best of my knowledge, there was no such

18 unit. And Goran Radosavljevic, "Gurij," as far as I know, was one of the

19 clerks in the MUP staff for Kosovo and Metohija.

20 Q. Thank you. My next question is the following: Did you obtain

21 information that in Djakovica there was a group called Legija commanded by

22 Colonel Kovacevic?

23 A. No. That was not the information I had. But when I visited

24 General -- or rather, when General Vasiljevic visited the units of the

25 Pristina Corps - and I accompanied him personally - in the Djakovica

Page 19834

1 garrison the chief of the 52nd Artillery Brigade of the PVO,

2 Sergej Perovic, Captain First Class, reported to him and said that there

3 was some such group, but he didn't say who was in command of that group.

4 At that meeting, he was given the task by General Vasiljevic of

5 checking whether any such unit existed and to report to me. After a few

6 days, because Major Perovic then said that this was unverified

7 information -- after a few days, he reported to me that he had not

8 obtained any information indicating the existence of such a group.

9 Q. Very well. Thank you. So when something is reported on the basis

10 of data that has not been checked out, then you have to investigate it,

11 right, and check it out?

12 A. Always and at all times.

13 Q. Thank you. Do you know someone called Milan Jolovic, nicknamed

14 "Legija," from the 52nd Special Brigade, which up to the first six months

15 of that same year was the commander of the Special Brigade?

16 A. No.

17 Q. That completes what I had to ask you about the paramilitary units.

18 Now I have a few questions -- well, I'd like to pick your brains and talk

19 about the authorisations of the security organs compared to authorised

20 services and persons from the MUP of the Republic of Serbia.

21 You commented on Article 30 of the law governing the army and the

22 powers that officials had from the security organs, and you said that they

23 were identical, of course, in relation to the army, as were the powers and

24 authorities of officials of the Ministry of the Interior of the Republic

25 of Serbia.

Page 19835

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Is it true that the officials of the security organs and of the

3 military police base their work, in addition to the Law Governing the

4 Army, also on the Law on Criminal Procedure?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. It's the same Law on Criminal Procedure which the members of the

7 MUP rely on for their powers and authorisations; right?

8 A. Well, I assume that that is the case, yes.

9 Q. Do you agree with me, General, that authorised personnel of the

10 security organs and of the military police can take into custody military

11 or other persons whom they come across engaged in crimes?

12 A. Did you say "military personnel"?

13 Q. Military personnel or civilians or members of the MUP or SUP, to

14 take into custody, if they belong to the army, and to arrest civilians and

15 hand them over to the MUP, if they are civilians?

16 A. Let me explain this. If a member of the Army of Yugoslavia is

17 caught in the act of committing a crime or they come across the

18 perpetrators of critical -- of crimes for military protection -- doing

19 acts against military protection, then they are duty-bound to take them

20 into custody.

21 Q. What about civilians or a policeman engaged in a criminal act?

22 What are they powers and duties there?

23 A. They are duty-bound to inform the superior officer about it.

24 Q. Thank you. I'd like to ask you something now about uniforms, the

25 uniforms of certain categories or branches of the army. Can you tell us

Page 19836

1 what kind of uniforms the members of the military police wore? What caps

2 they had on their heads, what colour they were, and what side-arms they

3 had, and any other equipment they possessed.

4 A. Members of the military police had one of several types of

5 prescribed uniforms in the Army of Yugoslavia, and they were the M93-type

6 uniform, and they had black berets on their heads.

7 Q. And side-arms and equipment? When I say "equipment," did they

8 have -- carry handcuffs, batons, or anything like that?

9 A. They had the necessary equipment on them that they needed to take

10 anybody into custody.

11 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us what uniforms the members of the 72nd

12 Special Brigade wore. Caps, weapons, and all the rest of it.

13 A. The members of the 72nd Special Brigade also wore the M93-type

14 uniform, but they had red berets on their heads and they had none of the

15 other equipment that other people had to take persons into custody when

16 the need arose.

17 Q. And what about the 63 -- 63rd Parachute Unit?

18 A. The members of the 63rd Parachute Unit also had the M93-type

19 uniform, with a red beret on their heads, but with the visible sign and

20 insignia denoting their -- them as being members of the brigade.

21 Q. You told us today on page 17, line 2 about the army check-points

22 in order to control the entrance and exit of soldiers from the area. But

23 do you know that at the critical time there were mixed check-points set up

24 by the army and the police? And if you knew about them, tell us what

25 their purpose was.

Page 19837

1 A. Yes, I do know about the fact that there were mixed check-points

2 manned by the police and the army jointly, pursuant to order from the

3 corps commander of the 4th of April, 1999; however, only a set number of

4 mixed check-points along the main roads and approach roads to certain

5 towns, such as Pristina, for example.

6 Q. Thank you. Now, yesterday you mentioned something, but I have to

7 ask you about it again. The military districts, did they have units of

8 the military police? And to whom were they responsible, if they did?

9 A. Military districts, regions, or sectors. The military sectors did

10 not have police units, but the military districts did have units of the

11 military police of platoon level.

12 Q. And they were responsible to whom?

13 A. To the commander of the military district.

14 Q. We heard when the military courts were established. Now, do you

15 know when they actually started functioning? When did you first hear of a

16 military investigating judge going out on a location, or something like

17 that?

18 A. The military courts attached to the Pristina Corps Command and

19 attached to the command of the military district of Pristina started

20 functioning on the 26th of March, 1999.

21 Q. So they became functional on the same day they were established;

22 is that right?

23 A. Well, they were established several days before that, but they

24 actually --

25 Q. Well, all right. Thank you for that answer. They were

Page 19838

1 established on the 24th.

2 Now, you were asked today something about the killing of Fehmi

3 Agani. I don't know why the document wasn't shown you. I don't know that

4 we asked that the document should be under seal, but I'll ask you without

5 the document: Do you know, during the course of your work, did you learn

6 or receive information that the proceedings linked to investigating who

7 had -- who committed the murder was done by the investigating judge, that

8 is, the judge in charge of the investigation, the prosecutor, and the

9 police, pursuant to the law? Do you have any knowledge about any of that?

10 Was everything done according to the Law on Criminal Procedure, by the

11 book?

12 A. As far as I know, everything was done by the book or according to

13 the Law on Criminal Procedure.

14 Q. Thank you, General. That's all my team had. These are all the

15 questions we had to ask you.

16 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

18 Mr. Stojanovic, you will now be cross-examined by Mr. Stamp for

19 the Prosecutor.

20 Mr. Stamp.

21 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Your Honours.

22 Cross-examination by Mr. Stamp:

23 Q. Good afternoon, General.

24 A. Good afternoon.

25 Q. Let me ask you first, do you know of any reasons, any concrete

Page 19839

1 reasons, why Witness Nike Peraj would tell -- would make statements about

2 you that are untrue? And if you want to go into private session to

3 answer, you could ask.

4 A. There's no need. I'm not going to mention any names. But I will

5 say that the reasons -- well, as far as I know, he made several statements

6 to this Court and they were different.

7 Q. No, no, I --

8 A. And the reasons for that --

9 Q. I'm not asking you about different statements. I'm asking you

10 simply: Do you know of any concrete reason why he would state matters

11 about you that were not true?

12 A. As to the person whose name is contained in your question, I was

13 friends for many years. There's not a single reason except to say that

14 after he remained living where he was, the KLA blackmailed him into giving

15 false statements. He was afraid for his family and himself, because until

16 the end of the war, he was an active member of the Army of Yugoslavia.

17 Q. And do you know of any concrete reason why General Vasiljevic

18 would make untrue statements about you when he said that you told him

19 about the Joint Command meeting on the 1st of June?

20 A. I see no reason. And in my statement and testimony, I told the

21 truth. Otherwise, if you're interested, my relations with

22 General Vasiljevic are very proper and correct.

23 Q. Very well. You -- you would have -- well, you did say that you

24 participated in the collegium meetings of the Pristina Corps on a daily

25 basis. Would you, in your capacity as chief of security for the corps,

Page 19840

1 participate in the preparation of plans for combat or tactical manoeuvres

2 of the various units of the Pristina Corps?

3 A. I would take part in the work of the command in making decisions

4 commensurate to my powers and authorities as chief of the security organ

5 of the corps command.

6 Q. I would ask you to listen to the questions. You know, did you

7 hear the last question I asked you?

8 A. Could you repeat it.

9 Q. And I'd like you to answer it this time: Did you participate in

10 the preparation of plans for combat actions or manoeuvres of the various

11 units of the Pristina Corps?

12 A. I participated in the part which related to giving over

13 information and providing knowledge about the locations, plans,

14 intentions, strength of the Albanian terrorists, and that information I

15 sent to the chief of the department for operations of the corps command.

16 Q. Did you participate in that capacity in the planning and

17 preparation of the army deployment in Meja on the 26th, 27th, and 28th of

18 April?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Did your unit provide any information for the preparation of the

21 plans for that army operation on those dates?

22 A. The security organs constantly provided information on the

23 presence of terrorists in all localities throughout Kosovo and Metohija,

24 including the presence of terrorists in that particular area.

25 Q. Well, did you know that there was a major combined army-MUP

Page 19841

1 offensive down the Caragoj Valley to Meja and Korenica on the 26th, 27th,

2 and 28th of April, 1999? Do you know that there was such an exercise?

3 A. As for that exercise, I learnt about it later, not in whole but on

4 a need-to-know basis, as prescribed by my position. And in each unit, I

5 have a security organ who has his responsibility and function vis-a-vis

6 the units. And if you're mentioning the units in the action in Caragoj

7 Valley, then each unit had its own security organ.

8 Q. How long after that operation did you hear about it?

9 A. The competent security organs were duty-bound after every

10 operation to report to me, as the chief.

11 Q. I'm asking about a specific operation, the operation in Meja and

12 the Caragoj Valley of 27th and 28th of April, 1999. When did you find out

13 about it? What date?

14 A. I found out about it in the evening hours through the report from

15 the chief of security of the 52nd Artillery Battalion of air defence,

16 Captain First Class Perovic.

17 Q. That is the evening hours of the 27th or 28th of April?

18 A. I can't remember. I think it was the 28th of April.

19 Q. Weren't military police units, in particular the 52nd -- all

20 right. I'll give you the precise -- the 52nd Battalion of the military

21 police involved as participants in that operation?

22 A. In that operation, to the best of my knowledge, two platoons of

23 the military police took part from the 52nd Battalion of the military

24 police.

25 Q. Were you not informed about an operation, a major operation, in

Page 19842

1 the neighbourhood that you came from at any of the collegium meetings that

2 you said you attended on a daily basis? Did you hear about this being

3 planned at any collegium meetings?

4 A. At the time when the operation took place, I myself was elsewhere.

5 I can't remember which location now. And I do believe that the corps

6 commander was certainly on some other assignment; so that we did not hold

7 a collegium at that time.

8 At the forward command post, as I said, you had the Chief of Staff

9 of the corps, and he was Colonel Veroljub Zivkovic, who was responsible

10 for all activities of the units in the area.

11 Q. Well, do you know where General Lazarevic was on the 27th of

12 April?

13 A. General Lazarevic on the 27th of April was in the Pristina

14 garrison.

15 Q. Do you know where he was on the 28th of April?

16 A. On the 28th of April, he was also at the Pristina garrison.

17 Q. Do you know of him visiting any units on any of those dates?

18 A. All I know is that on the 27th of April he attended some ceremony

19 with respect to State Day. And on the 28th, I think he visited the

20 command of the Pristina garrison. And in the morning on the 28th, I think

21 we moved the command post to another location.

22 Q. You said that when there's some information received by the

23 military security organs that crimes had been committed in operations that

24 the military was involved in, there would be some investigation. Now, did

25 you conduct any investigation as to any crime that might have occurred at

Page 19843

1 Meja on the 27th or the 28th of April?

2 A. The duties of the security organs are such that from the aspect of

3 provided duties, they should view and monitor all the units' activities,

4 so that the activities of the units in the area of Caragoj Valley was also

5 followed by the security organs, and I was informed about the course of

6 the -- that operation from the aspects of security, not, of course, the

7 details of the action, because in view of my function, I did not need to

8 know that.

9 Q. You know, you didn't answer the question I asked you now, but you

10 have said in your response that you were informed about the course of that

11 operation from the aspect of security. How were you informed about the

12 course of that operation?

13 A. I was informed only of the basics of that action, because my duty

14 does not require me to know the tactics or the way a unit is used, but my

15 duty does require me to know whether any legal conduct or criminal conduct

16 took place on the part of members of the unit or against them perhaps.

17 Q. No, no, the question is: How? What was the means, in what way

18 were you informed about the course of that operation?

19 A. I was informed by the competent security organ of the units.

20 Q. And was this by telegram, by phone? And was this going on in the

21 course of the operation?

22 A. I was regularly informed by phone, by security organs.

23 Q. You're telling me just now that you found out about it first on

24 the evening probably of the 28th? If there are two military police

25 battalions or platoons involved in a combat capacity in an operation,

Page 19844

1 would you not be informed about that beforehand, sir?

2 A. I would not have to be informed, because as I stressed, there's

3 not a single unit under the command of the chief of security, and that

4 includes those two battalions -- not battalions, platoons of the military

5 police.

6 Q. Anyway, just clarify this for me so I could move on to the

7 question I asked you before we got into this. Were you informed about the

8 course of the operation regularly by phone, or were you informed about it

9 for the first time on the evening of the -- of the 28th, when the

10 operation was ended?

11 A. Every night and every morning I received reports from the

12 subordinate security offices. From those reports. I learned about every

13 action, including that one.

14 Q. I take it that you're now saying that you would have heard about

15 that operation at 6.00 in the -- well, you would have heard about that

16 operation on the morning when it began, wouldn't you?

17 A. I'm telling you again, nobody had the duty or the obligation to

18 inform me as security chief about the gist of the action or the tactics on

19 the ground. All they were obliged to do, the subordinate security

20 organs --

21 Q. You're not answering my question.

22 A. Which action --

23 Q. You are not --

24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I object. Before we

25 continue, I have an objection. The witness is in the process of answering

Page 19845

1 Mr. Stamp's question. Mr. Stamp was asking about the action, and the

2 witness is trying to say for the second time what it is exactly that his

3 subordinates were duty-bound to report, and Mr. Stamp is asking whether he

4 received reports on the action, and the witness is saying for the second

5 time that he does not receive -- he did not receive information about

6 tactic, about the use of forces, and such.

7 MR. STAMP: But, Your Honours, that's not what I asked him. I

8 asked him if he'd have heard about the operation on the morning when it

9 began and not when it ended on the 28th, in the night.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. And he was trying to answer that, I think,

11 Mr. Stamp. I mean, your question was not you did receive but you would

12 have heard about, and he's explaining why he would not have heard about,

13 as I read the answer. So I think he should complete it.

14 MR. STAMP: Very well.

15 Q. You're invited to complete your answer.

16 A. I do want to answer, and I'm saying again, in view of my position

17 and jurisdiction, I was not the officer in the Pristina Corps Command who

18 would have all actions, orders, and activities that units engaged in on

19 the ground reported to him.

20 Q. Did you receive information about that particular action on the

21 morning of the -- of the -- of the 27th, when it began?

22 A. I received information that an action is being carried out to

23 search for terrorists in that area, and I knew, because that area,

24 especially the area of Smonica, was a location where hundreds of our

25 soldiers were killed, especially on roads on the way to the border posts.

Page 19846

1 I knew that much.

2 Other details of the action, which routes the troops were going

3 along and the tactics, et cetera, are something I didn't know. The

4 subordinate security officer tells me usually that such-and-such an action

5 was carried out, losses were such-and-such, illegal conduct took place or

6 didn't take place, so many terrorists were or were not arrested, et

7 cetera.

8 Q. You keep telling me that you did not have to hear about tactics

9 and this and that, and we could have moved on very quickly. All I was

10 asking you about was when did it come to your attention that there was an

11 operation on the 27th and the 28th of April in Meja.

12 And now I come back to the question I asked you later. Do you

13 know of the military security organ being involved in any investigations

14 of crimes that were committed by units involved in the operation in Meja

15 area on the 27th or the 28th of April?

16 A. Security organs would at all times - that's in their job

17 description - inquire or investigate into criminal acts committed by

18 members of the army or against members of the army. That is true of that

19 particular action as well. The security officer informed me that from the

20 viewpoint of engagement of the army, the action was carried out properly,

21 without any problems.

22 Q. So your answer is that there were no investigations, or whatever

23 investigations there were of that operation revealed no crimes committed

24 in the course of that operation.

25 A. Security organs investigate based on clues, evidence, or reports,

Page 19847

1 or intelligence that a specific crime was committed. In that specific

2 case, we had neither evidence or reports or intelligence that a criminal

3 act had been committed by a member of the Army of Yugoslavia.

4 Q. Well, Meja and that general area is an area that your family is

5 from, where you are from. That's correct?

6 A. No, I come from the other end of town.

7 Q. But you have relatives there. You even had a family house there.

8 And I think you testified that in gathering intelligence you even spoke to

9 elders in the Albanian community. You had access to elders in the

10 Albanian community. Is that correct?

11 A. I have to say this again. What I said is this: In discharging my

12 contacts and duties, I had contacts and I had operative sources among the

13 Albanian citizenry. Mainly its separatist and terrorist segment, not

14 among regular citizens. I also had contacts with prominent citizens, and

15 I still have them today - and I have many Albanian friends, because that's

16 the community I grew up in.

17 Q. Did you -- do you have any idea, based on your intelligence, based

18 on your contacts with prominent citizens, based on the information from

19 your security organs, based on the fact that you are from that area and

20 you visited the area from time to time, including a few days before the

21 Meja exercise by the army and the police, do you know how many people, how

22 many Kosovo Albanians were killed in Meja area during that operation?

23 Didn't you get any information about that?

24 A. No. No --

25 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

Page 19848

1 A. What I'm saying is that the first I learned of the existence --

2 are you going to allow me to answer?

3 Q. If you'll answer my questions. The second question is: You have

4 heard about people being killed in Meja during the operation to this day?

5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours --

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Please let the witness answer that question,

7 Mr. Bakrac.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will answer. And I repeat: The

9 first I heard that allegedly in that operation some people were killed was

10 when following this trial, especially the evidence whom we did not name

11 here, except in private session.


13 Q. Okay. Were you -- and this is an -- a question that might sound

14 rhetorical, but it needs a yes-or-no answer. Were you really serious in

15 investigating possible crimes committed by Serbian security forces against

16 Kosovar Albanians? Were you serious about that?

17 A. Yes, always.

18 Q. We have information before this Court that well over 300 people,

19 in the vicinity of 350 people reported to the Red Cross and various other

20 organisations as missing from -- from that area at about the time of that

21 operation. You didn't know that? That didn't come to you from your

22 intelligence, from your family members, from your friends, from your

23 contacts, from the prominent citizens you know, the elders you know in the

24 community? You never had an inkling of that?

25 A. My communications with ethnic Albanians after 1999 came to

Page 19849

1 nothing, with a few honourable exceptions. My house was burnt down after

2 1999, and I no longer had any information what, if anything, happened in

3 that area. I heard it -- that it was said that some people were killed in

4 that locality. As I said, only from following this trial, from the

5 evidence of a protected witness.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stojanovic, I hope this has been accurately

7 translated, but a short time ago one of the answers you gave was: "I also

8 had contacts with prominent citizens and I still have them today, and I

9 have many Albanian friends, because that's the community I grew up in."

10 Was that accurately translated?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it was accurately

12 interpreted. There is a number of Albanians who live in Nis, where I live

13 now, and Albanians from other areas with whom I am in contact. But

14 regrettably in the locality where I grew up in, where there were only 1

15 per cent Serbs, I no longer have any contacts with Albanians from

16 Djakovica.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: You know, Mr. Stojanovic, that answer was given in

18 the context of being asked about that being your area where your family

19 were from, and you said: "I come from the other end of town."

20 And you were then asked that: "You have relatives there, you have

21 a family house. I think you testified that you even spoke to elders in

22 the Albanian community. You had access to elders in the Albanian

23 community. Is that correct?"

24 And then you gave that answer. And, you know, no one would have

25 dreamt, I think, until you told us just now that you were talking about

Page 19850

1 Albanians living far, far away from Meja.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm not sorry -- I'm

3 not sure I understood your question, but I'll try to answer. I was born

4 in Djakovica but not in a place that belongs to that area but on the other

5 end of Djakovica, close to the bus station. I said I had contacts with

6 prominent Albanians while I served in Kosovo and Metohija and I had quite

7 a few friends among Albanians, and I said that to date I have contacts

8 with individual ethnic Albanians in Kosovo and Metohija. That was my

9 answer.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stamp.


12 Q. Sir, I can't even -- well, let me ask you this: Where were you?

13 What was your job in 2001?

14 A. 2000 or 2001?

15 Q. 2001.

16 A. In 2001 I was commander of one brigade in the Nis garrison.

17 Q. 2002, what was your job?

18 A. In 2002 I was chief of operations at the command of the Pristina

19 Corps, based in Leskovac garrison.

20 Q. So you were still in the army at that time. Did you not hear even

21 a rumour circulating that hundreds of bodies were located at a place

22 called Batajnica in Serbia? Did you hear that?

23 A. I heard that from media reports, like any other citizen of Serbia.

24 Q. Did you hear even a rumour or shall I ask you two more questions.

25 Where were you in 2003 and 2004? What was your job in those years?

Page 19851

1 A. [No interpretation].

2 JUDGE BONOMY: We have a problem with the interpretation, I'm

3 afraid. There's --

4 THE INTERPRETER: It's my fault. Sorry. The microphone was not

5 on.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm afraid you'll have to start that answer again,

7 Mr. Stojanovic. The interpretation did not come through to us.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From 24 March 2003 until May 2005, I

9 occupied the post of director of the military security agency of the army

10 of Serbia and Montenegro.


12 Q. Okay. In that period of time, this case hadn't started yet. And

13 in that period of time, did you hear even a rumour that many of those

14 bodies that were found at Batajnica were the bodies of Kosovar Albanians

15 who had been reported missing to the ICRC from Meja on the 26th -- sorry,

16 the 27th and the 28th of April, 1999? Did you hear that in that period of

17 time?

18 A. That some bodies were found in Batajnica, I repeat, I heard

19 through the media that exist in Serbia. I didn't hear from those media

20 reports that the bodies originated in Meja or any other location. I

21 simply heard that those graves were found and the press reported it in

22 Serbia.

23 Q. But wasn't there a -- a debate in the media that included

24 statements from former senior members of the VJ, including

25 General Pavkovic and General Lazarevic, seeking to deny the army's

Page 19852

1 involvement in the location of the bodies? Didn't -- didn't you know --

2 seeking to deny the army's involvement in these bodies that were found at

3 Batajnica. Did you know about that, that the army and the police were

4 being blamed for it?

5 A. The military security service neither at the time when I was chief

6 in the Pristina Corps nor in the whole time I served in the army and the

7 military security service had any intelligence or information that the

8 execution or transportation of these bodies or any part thereof included

9 the involvement of -- of members of the army. Why would we investigate it

10 further if we knew well the situation in our units? And I am saying to

11 you with full responsibility that the Army of Yugoslavia, at least on the

12 basis of what I know from media reports and from what I know from my job

13 as security chief in the Pristina Corps Command, the Army of Yugoslavia

14 had no information even about the existence of bodies in that location.

15 Q. Very well.

16 A. I learned about it like any other regular citizen from -- media

17 reports.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: I don't think that was the question. The question

19 was: Did you know that there was a debate in the press about denial of

20 responsibility of the army for these bodies?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I read in the press. There were

22 many headlines about this. But I never read in any one of those reports

23 that the army is responsible in any way.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stamp.


Page 19853

1 Q. Did you read of -- did you read, sorry, of General Pavkovic and

2 General Lazarevic making statements about it?

3 A. I can't remember reading any statement by General Lazarevic and

4 General Pavkovic about it. I may be at fault for not being informed well

5 enough, but I really haven't read.

6 Q. It subsequently turned out -- or scratch that.

7 I take it that you're -- you're also saying that until this trial

8 started, you did not know that well over 300 of those bodies found at

9 Batajnica were positively identified to have come from Meja? You didn't

10 know that?

11 A. I said that from media reports I learned much earlier than this

12 trial that there were some bodies in that location, and I said that I

13 learned more about it from this trial and the evidence of the witness I

14 mentioned.

15 Q. Okay. Now, I don't --

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Why can't -- why can't you just answer the

17 question? The question was: Are you actually saying that until this

18 trial started, you did not know that well over 300 of these bodies were

19 positively identified as coming from Meja?

20 Now, that requires a "yes" or a "no" answer.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I knew about the bodies found, but I

22 didn't know that they were identified as coming from Meja.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

24 Mr. Stamp.


Page 19854

1 Q. I don't like asking "how" questions, but I'm going to ask you:

2 How is it -- how is it that two of your platoons could have participated

3 in an operation in Meja, 350 people - and I must confess that I think

4 that's a large amount of people to be coming from -- to be killed in

5 fairly rural areas over a two-day period - could have been killed, could

6 have been buried somewhere, disinterred, transported to Serbia without

7 you, your security organs, your intelligence, your contacts, your friends,

8 your Kosovar Albanian elders not even knowing a thing about it until this

9 trial started? What was your security organ doing? Are you serious?

10 These are many questions, but how is it that your security organ did not

11 know about what happened in these villages in 1999?

12 A. My security organs knew very well about all the activities of the

13 army, and I am telling you again that we had no intelligence and no

14 reports about the existence, the alleged existence of bodies or executions

15 that allegedly took place in that area.

16 Q. I suggest to you, sir, that the reason why you can't share with us

17 how you don't know is because you very well know that there were massacres

18 committed in those two days by forces of the -- of -- by Yugoslav -- by

19 forces of Serb, by both the army and the police during the operation.

20 A. That is what you say, and I do not accept it in the part that

21 involves the army. I know about that, because that was my job.

22 Q. Do you know about crimes of that magnitude being committed by the

23 police?

24 A. No, I heard no such information.

25 Q. You still haven't answered the question how it escaped you, but I

Page 19855

1 have to move on.

2 Do you have amongst the personnel in the military police

3 Commander Kopanja? And that's in 1999. Was there a Commander Kopanja in

4 the 52nd Military Police Battalion?

5 A. Yes. Major Stevo Kopanja.

6 Q. K73 said that in April 1999, when we're in Junik -- and as you

7 well know, Junik is the northern part of the Caragoj Valley -- "we

8 received Commander Kopanja, and he gathered the officers and gave the

9 instruction that from now on we have to clean the area from the Albanians.

10 Commander Kopanja clearly said that we had to send all the Albanian

11 civilians towards Korenica, because there they were waited by MUP with a

12 list of names of terrorists." And he said:

13 "It was clear to me at the time that this was just a cover-up

14 story and that the only purpose for this operation was to cleanse the

15 village, because he could not imagine any KLA willingly going into

16 Korenica and not fleeing the advance of our forces."

17 Evidence of K73 is that the commanders on the ground in the

18 military police unit, your subordinates, ordered them to expel Albanians

19 and burn their houses. You do not know of that?

20 A. I know that commanders of the military police -- and that is

21 something I should really know about, and I have no information about them

22 or any other units having a task to drive out Albanians and burn their

23 houses, and I find the statement of that witness very questionable indeed.

24 Q. You --

25 JUDGE CHOWHAN: I'm sorry, I'm going to interrupt here.

Page 19856

1 Sorry, General, to interrupt and to ask you this question. Now,

2 it's once -- one thing saying you had no information or it didn't come,

3 but you -- you had no information. But you see, you got the information

4 through the media, through the press, as you admit yourself. And these

5 were big incidents and occurrences, nothing small. And somebody is

6 accusing your officers that way. I mean, you were in a position to hold

7 some sort of investigation about it. Why was there so much inaptitude

8 shown in this respect? I mean, this is something which I'm not able to

9 understand. How do you -- how do you clear this position, please? Why

10 weren't you bothered, I mean? Why didn't you go further to inquire, find

11 the trails. All this is happening.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The document that the Prosecutor is

13 invoking is not something I'm aware of, and I don't know about the

14 substance of that document.

15 JUDGE CHOWHAN: [Previous translation continues] ... No, I would

16 confine you to something very specific. I apologise for that. But the

17 question is: You have admitted that you read things in the press. Now,

18 leave this document aside and leave the questions of the learned

19 Prosecutor for a while. It is for -- it is between you and him later --

20 for later on.

21 Please answer this: I mean, there were the newspapers, which you

22 did read, and there's no denying this fact. Why weren't you disturbed on

23 that? Why didn't you go ahead investigating? Why didn't you find out? I

24 mean, it was nothing so small happening, if at all happened.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Certainly every normal person would

Page 19857

1 be upset, and I was upset, and I would try to get informed about the

2 further course of the action and contact all my colleagues and connections

3 throughout Kosovo and Metohija if I had known about it then. But what I'm

4 saying to Mr. Stamp is that at that time we had not a single piece of

5 information or indication that the members of the army had committed a

6 murder of even one person, let alone such a large group.

7 JUDGE CHOWHAN: So you would not have investigated, even though

8 there was, let's say, no blame, according to you, on everyone to find out

9 what really happened. That was your territorial limits. And you did

10 admit that you read it in the papers. So how did you react to that? I

11 mean, in terms of action.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, at that time, when that story

13 appeared in the papers, I occupied one of the command posts. I was

14 commander of the brigade and operations chief. But every normal person

15 would take steps to get more information about what happened. However,

16 Your Honour, I did not obtain any information that would make matters

17 clearer to me except the information I had from media reports and from

18 this trial.

19 JUDGE CHOWHAN: So you wouldn't even like to -- you wouldn't even

20 have liked to go and visit the place with all that background and your

21 belonging to that area and all that? You wouldn't even like to go and see

22 if -- if it was true or if it was not?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would if I could like to go and

24 visit my hometown, but I have not been able for ten years to visit the

25 graves of my relatives and my house that was burnt down and destroyed by

Page 19858

1 the terrorists, and I really can't imagine what would have to happen to

2 make it possible for a member of the army to go to Kosovo and Metohija

3 nowadays.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: In case there's any misunderstanding, we should

5 make it clear we understand your answer to be that what you read about was

6 the discovery of the bodies of Batajnica, and what you are saying is that

7 you were not aware of any link at all between those bodies and the events

8 in Meja.

9 Now, Mr. Stamp, what else?

10 MR. STAMP: Thank you.

11 Q. I was asking you about the evidence of K-89 in respect to the Meja

12 offensive on the 27th and the 28th of April, and he said that your

13 subordinate ordered them to expel the Albanians and burn the houses. He

14 also testified or said that you gave orders directly to your military --

15 to your military police units to engage in combat activities. Is that

16 correct? Did you do that?

17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could Mr. Stamp give us

18 a reference first where this was said, this exact wording. Where did the

19 witness say that?

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stamp, can you help?

21 MR. STAMP: I'm not sure if P2307 is sealed, P2307 in the

22 statement of K-89 ... but he said that at paragraph 33 and thereafter.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: P2 -- is that 44 --

24 MR. STAMP: 307.

25 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

Page 19859

1 JUDGE BONOMY: The -- the redacted version of that is P2440.

2 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Your Honours. P2440.

3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, for the record, on page

4 119, line 22 the question reads, if I understand English well: "[In

5 English] [Previous translation continues] ... And you said that your

6 subordinate ordered them to expel the Albanians."

7 [Interpretation] I don't think this witness said that.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, we now noticed K-73 and not K-89.

9 Now, can you -- which paragraph is it, Mr. Stamp?

10 MR. STAMP: It's paragraph 33. And he was asked about paragraph

11 33 in the transcript, and it's closed session, so I'm being very careful,

12 at page 3313. And basically he said - and I don't think I'm breaching

13 anything in respect to the closed session testimony - that, to be

14 specific, my unit, this being the entire Military Police Battalion, was

15 subordinated directly to him. And the -- if you look at it, the question

16 was about this witness.

17 I think also, Your Honour, that one of the questions asked by my

18 learned friend, Bakrac, incorporated that aspect of evidence.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you identify where this passage is that he says

20 that orders were given?

21 MR. STAMP: Well, it -- the passage in which he says orders were

22 given is paragraph 33 of the statement.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I can't see that in the statement I'm reading

24 at the moment, so can we go -- it must be over the page.

25 He -- this was raised in -- in the examination-in-chief, but it

Page 19860

1 wasn't about expelling Albanians. It was about stage managing events to

2 make them look as if the KLA were responsible.

3 MR. STAMP: Correct.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, that's different from the question you've

5 asked.

6 MR. STAMP: The question I'm -- I'm asking is simply whether or

7 not the witness gave orders to his military police units to engage in

8 combat activities. K-33 [sic] said so, if you look at the two bits and

9 pieces of evidence. Mr. Bakrac incorporated that question in a question

10 that he asked. And I am just asking the witness whether he did, as really

11 just laying the foundation --

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Just look at -- look at line 18 -- 19 of page 119,

13 which is to do with an order to expel Albanians and burn the houses.

14 Where's -- where is the evidence for that? That's the question you're

15 being asked.

16 MR. STAMP: The evidence for that is page 31 -- sorry, paragraph

17 31 of Exhibit 2307.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, back to paragraph 31, please.

19 MR. STAMP: Sorry, I beg your pardon, it's paragraph 42.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Forward to paragraph 42.

21 MR. STAMP: I will read it. I will read it, if that could assist

22 my friend. "We expelled hundreds of Albanian civilians on the first day.

23 After the civilians left, we set fire to their houses, as this was the

24 order."

25 And in the context of the whole thing, you could see this was the

Page 19861

1 order of Commander Kopanja, the subordinate of Major Stojanovic. And that

2 is why I cannot understand the objection. This --

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, you've now satisfied us that the question is

4 proper. So you better formulate it again, and let's hear the witness's

5 answer.


7 Q. Did you give orders to your units to conduct combat operations?

8 A. Sir, Mr. Prosecutor --

9 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Perhaps we are reading something else,

10 Your Honour, but I don't see the name Stojanovic in paragraph 42, or the

11 name of Kopanja, Your Honour. I don't know what he's been reading.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: The question, in my view, is -- is perfectly

13 appropriate.

14 So please answer that question, Mr. Stojanovic.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if the Prosecutor has

16 listened to my statements carefully yesterday and today and to my

17 testimony, I said that I was never in commander of any unit of the army

18 but that in the professional sense I proposed the use of units of the

19 military police. If the Prosecutor's question is whether I ordered part

20 of the units of the 52nd Military Police Battalion to do what the

21 Prosecutor mentioned, my answer to that is "no."

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stamp.


24 Q. That was not the question. The question is: Did you order them

25 at any time? Did you order them into combat activity, your units?

Page 19862

1 A. I never ordered them, because that was exclusively the right of

2 the commander.

3 MR. STAMP: Could we look quickly --

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, we're now a little past our deadline. Is

5 this -- but if you want to finish a chapter and it's going to be brief,

6 then please do so.

7 MR. STAMP: Yes. Perhaps I could just get the translation from

8 him and --



11 Q. Could you look quickly at P2297, and at page 6 in e-court.

12 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]


14 Q. This is the war log of the 57th Military Police Battalion.

15 At page 6 in English, which is page 9 in B/C/S, on the B/C/S

16 version in e-court there's an entry for the 13th of April, 1999.

17 Now, do you see an entry there that says: "Upon an arrival at the

18 Morina border post"? Do you see that?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can you just read that so we can confirm the translation.

21 A. "Upon arrival in the area of the Morina border post, we were

22 tasked by the chief of the OB PrK to capture the border post in the

23 village of Kamenica. The task was carried out and our troops suffered no

24 consequences."

25 Should I go on reading?

Page 19863

1 Q. No. Thank you. The record here is that the chief of the security

2 sector Pristina Corps, which is you, made the order. Is that what it

3 says?

4 A. Yes, that's what it says here.

5 Q. Very well.

6 A. But I did not issue -- please allow me to explain. I only

7 conveyed the order issued by the corps commander.

8 Q. I see. Do you know who made this record?

9 A. It looks like a war diary to me. It looks like the diary of a

10 unit.

11 Q. Now, I'd like you to note the date, that this is about two weeks

12 before the incident at Meja, or the offensive at Meja. And you are saying

13 this doesn't truly reflect what you did. Can I ask you: Do you know any

14 reason why your subordinate, your direct subordinate, K --

15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, one cannot impute to

16 the witness what he did not say, and we all heard very clearly what he did

17 say. My learned friend says "you said," and then he quotes something that

18 the witness did not say, as we can all hear and see.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Did he not say it doesn't truly reflect what he

20 did? I thought he did say that.

21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness explained

22 that he conveyed that it does not --

23 JUDGE BONOMY: It's an accurate reflection of that.

24 Please continue very quickly, Mr. Stamp, because the tape's

25 running out.

Page 19864

1 MR. STAMP: Oh, very well.

2 Q. The last question for today: Do you know of any reason why K-83

3 [sic] - and you know who he is - would want --

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Is it not 73?

5 MR. STAMP: K -- I beg your pardon. It's K-73.

6 Q. Would make untrue statements about you, his commander?

7 A. It is the right of every person to make a statement and abide by

8 it. I answered your questions truthfully. I cannot comment on why

9 another witness made a statement before this Court.

10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Again, Your Honours, I didn't want to

11 interrupt, but the question is again incorrect. It says here: Why would

12 this witness say something about his commander, but this witness never

13 said that Stojanovic was his immediate commander. And the witness

14 explained who the commander was.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: The witness has already told us that he actually

16 conveyed this order. The interpretation that Mr. Stamp is suggesting is

17 one that is open to him to suggest. What we accept about all this will

18 depend on our judgement on the evidence. There's nothing wrong with the

19 way in which that cross-examination was conducted.

20 We'll have to interrupt here, Mr. Stamp.

21 MR. STAMP: Yes, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm afraid there's a couple of things to be dealt

23 with.

24 Mr. Fila, the exhibit you referred to latterly in your

25 cross-examination, 2D391, where -- which related to Vasiljevic and the

Page 19865

1 notebook, we refused the admission of that exhibit recently in an order.

2 The witness here has no knowledge of it, so for the avoidance of any doubt

3 on the matter, that document is not admitted in any -- to any extent at

4 all.

5 Mr. Lukic, Mr. Stamp mentioned it and I -- earlier this morning,

6 and I told you that -- or I said then that -- that the matter was being

7 dealt with urgently, that is the notification of further details of your

8 witnesses in terms of the order we made in October. There is still no

9 response to that, unfortunately.

10 MR. LUKIC: It is in the system, Your Honour. It should be

11 available today, during the day. It's filed today.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: I see. Thank you very much.

13 And I take it the other matter you raised with us has been

14 resolved.

15 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. We got, with your help the

16 permission to visit our client tomorrow, although it's not working day.

17 Thank you.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Now there's also outstanding - if the tape runs

19 out, too bad. These are administrative matters and not essential to the

20 evidence in the case.

21 There is an issue over the interposition of a witness on Monday.

22 Mr. Stamp, what's your position on that?

23 MR. STAMP: I have no objection to that. If the Defence could

24 find a way that we could proceed in the normal way, I think it would be

25 better, but --

Page 19866


2 MR. STAMP: -- if there are restraints that they have to abide

3 by, I accede to it.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: We -- we agree with that, Mr. Bakrac, that it would

5 be far more suitable on this occasion to complete Mr. Stojanovic before

6 moving to another witness.

7 I think the timing of your next witness is such that he would not

8 occupy the whole of two days. Now, whether you can work out a scheme

9 with -- with the Prosecutor to try to avoid interposing the next witness

10 is -- is something we would ask you to explore. If you can't, then

11 there's no objection to you interposing him, but we would prefer you to

12 try to get round it in some other way.

13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I must know from the

14 Prosecutor exactly how much time he still has for his cross-examination

15 and then --

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, you -- but you can deal with that after we've

17 risen.

18 Mr. Stojanovic, you -- you would normally be told to be back here

19 on Monday morning at 9.00; however, there's a possibility that a different

20 arrangement will be made. That will -- if it changes, you'll be told.

21 But unless you hear something to the contrary, you should be back here at

22 9.00 on Monday morning and you should be very careful over the weekend to

23 ensure that you avoid discussion of the case or any of the evidence in the

24 case with anyone. You must confine yourself to other subjects and discuss

25 in no way the evidence in this case or any part of it.

Page 19867

1 We'll rise now and sit at 9.00 on Monday.

2 [The witness stands down]

3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.46 p.m.,

4 to be reconvened on Monday, the 10th day of

5 December, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.