Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 20071

1 Wednesday, 12 December 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The accused Milutinovic not present]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.16 p.m.

6 [The witness entered court]

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Good afternoon, Mr. Stojanovic.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stamp will now continue his cross-examination.

10 Mr. Stamp.

11 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Your Honour.


13 [Witness answered through interpreter]

14 Cross-examination by Mr. Stamp: [Continued]

15 Q. Good afternoon, sir.

16 A. Good afternoon.

17 Q. You said earlier that the Albanian newspaper Koha Ditore refused

18 to publish an appeal from the Serbian government to Kosovar Albanians to

19 remain and not to leave. When was this?

20 A. This was sometime in March 1999.

21 Q. Well, was it before or after the conflict started, before the NATO

22 bombing started?

23 A. It was before -- if you mean before the aggression, it was before

24 the aggression, yes.

25 Q. Are you aware that at the start of the aggression the printery of

Page 20072

1 that newspaper was burned down and the MUP entered the premises and a

2 guard was killed?

3 A. I'm not aware of that, no; but to the best of my knowledge at the

4 beginning of the NATO aggression the printing works were not burnt down.

5 Q. Very well. I'd like to move on to ask you about some of the

6 forces that were present in Kosovo at the time when you were security

7 chief of the Pristina Corps.

8 MR. STAMP: Can we look at P1415, please.

9 Q. And while it is coming up, can I ask you some -- ask you whether

10 or not you have heard or seen in Pristina Corps orders the term "armed

11 non-Siptar population"?

12 A. In the orders of the Pristina Corps, I did see this, yes.

13 Q. Do you know what, if any, was their role in operations or actions

14 during the war after March 24, 1999?

15 A. I'll answer your question. In mid-1998 the situation in Kosovo

16 and Metohija was exceptionally difficult. Many settlements inhabited by

17 Serbs sent representatives to the corps command, who asked the corps

18 commander that the army protect them or that they be issued with weapons

19 so that they can protect themselves, in view of the fact that many small

20 Serb enclaves had been burnt down and looted. I attended meetings held by

21 General Pavkovic, the commander of the Pristina Corps at the time, when

22 the villagers of the village Priluzje in Obilic municipality came to see

23 him and asked him to distributed weapons to him. The corps commander

24 forwarded all such requests to the Ministry of Defence because that was

25 the competent organ able to issue such a decision. After June 1998, I am

Page 20073

1 aware that following an order from the Pristina Corps commander to his

2 subordinate units, they were ordered to arm their military conscripts in

3 smaller ethnic communities where Serbs lived. I'm also aware that these

4 conscripts remained in their villages to defend their villages, and I have

5 no information that the inhabitants of those villages participated in any

6 kind of combat against the terrorists outside their own villages. They

7 were simply protecting and guarding their own villages.

8 Q. Do you as -- or did you as chief of security of the Pristina Corps

9 know how many such persons were armed?

10 A. I don't have any precise information about that. I don't know,

11 but there are records with the units that did it.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Could you tell us roughly how many this would

13 amount to?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, maybe some 40.000 let's

15 say.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

17 Mr. Stamp.


19 Q. And I don't think we need to go through the document which I just

20 called up, which I think is in front of you. They were commanded by the

21 VJ, were they?

22 A. No, they were not commanded by the VJ.

23 MR. STAMP: Let's go to page 2 of this document, P1415. It's page

24 2 in the English, I'm sorry, it's page -- still remains page 1 in the

25 B/C/S. I should have indicated that earlier.

Page 20074

1 Q. There you can see in the last three paragraphs or in the -- in

2 paragraph 6 it indicates they are formed: "In each village according to

3 the military structure in squads, platoons, and companies. Appoint a

4 commander, deputy, and assistant for each unit. Organize the defence of

5 settlements so that each settlement has sentries, patrols, ambushes, duty

6 units, an intervention unit and an evacuation unit."

7 And then the last paragraph in 6: "Place an active superior

8 officer in charge of each settlement to directly control the preparation

9 of units and remain there until the organization of defence is fully

10 completed and the unit is trained."

11 Didn't the VJ retain control over these armed units even after

12 that period?

13 A. Mr. Prosecutor, first let's comment on this document, which I see

14 before me.

15 Q. Yes, answer and then comment.

16 A. The document dates from June 1998 when the military territorial

17 organs, through the command of the military district, were subordinated to

18 the command of the 3rd Army and not the Pristina Corps. If you look at

19 the document carefully it says that the military departments are

20 responsible for organizing the defence of those villages. This means that

21 they were to prepare and organize the population, to protect their own

22 villages if attacked by terrorists.

23 Q. Yes, but this is an order signed by the corps commander at the

24 time, Major-General Pavkovic, and it provides that these villagers should

25 be trained by the VJ and that the VJ should make plans for the maintenance

Page 20075

1 and storage of the weapons that they were given. And you can see there

2 that they were given assault rifles, sniper rifles, and weapons of this

3 nature. Isn't it true, General, that the VJ did retain control of these

4 village units in 1999?

5 A. Mr. Prosecutor, from this document which I see before me, I can

6 say that the representatives of the subordinate units on whose territory

7 there were villages inhabited by Serbs which were completely surrounded

8 and under threat were duty-bound, according to the appropriate military

9 occupational specialties, to arm men liable for military service in those

10 villages and train them how to defend those villages through patrols,

11 guards, sentry duty in their own villages. That's my interpretation of

12 this document, but I don't know what your question is.

13 Q. Yes. The question is simple. This document speaks to the

14 formation of these units in the middle of 1998 and it tells you that the

15 VJ trained them, armed them, and was responsible to secure and maintain

16 the arms, and these are combat arms, assault rifles and sniper rifles

17 included. And the question is, having regard to all of that: Didn't the

18 VJ retain control over these units in 1999?

19 A. In these armed villages and the units in those villages which were

20 armed, never left their own villages. I say that with full

21 responsibility. Throughout the war they remained in their villages

22 defending their villages from any terrorist attacks. If you're asking me

23 whether they were used beyond the boundaries of their villages and their

24 homes, my answer is no.

25 Q. Where they were used, whether in defence of their villages or

Page 20076

1 outside the villages, wherever, the question is simple: Did the VJ retain

2 control over these units?

3 A. The military territorial organs retained control, the ones that

4 were competent, to make sure that the weapons were not abused, were not

5 misused. I have to correct you. They did not have snipers; they had

6 semi-automatic rifles.

7 Q. Well, if we could look at page 1 in English, maybe I was mistaken

8 there. And when we are looking at page 1 you will agree with me that the

9 military territorial organs were under the command of the 3rd Army?

10 A. No, no. They were under the command of the Pristina Military

11 District, and the command of the Pristina Military District was under the

12 command of the 3rd Army, all the way until April 1999.

13 Q. Okay. Thanks. Thanks, sir. It might be a minor thing, but

14 doesn't paragraph 2 indicate the weapons that were distributed to them.

15 It says: "Distribute automatic rifles, semi-automatic rifles, light

16 machine-guns, sniper rifles, necessary communications equipment," et

17 cetera.

18 A. Yes, yes, sir, I'll explain. That's what it says here, but I know

19 that the Pristina Corps did not have enough sniper rifles for the military

20 police or the special units, let alone to distribute to villagers, to

21 inhabitants, of Serb villages in Kosovo and Metohija.

22 Q. Very well. The part of the order that I read earlier at paragraph

23 6, it said that there were -- within these units they were to form an

24 intervention unit. We have heard some evidence in the court about what

25 intervention units were in the VJ, but can you tell us what an

Page 20077

1 intervention unit was in these village units?

2 A. Certainly. Security for the villages threatened by terrorists,

3 primarily non-Albanian villages, was organized as follows: Night guards

4 were organized, check-points at entrances to the villages, and if a sentry

5 post or a check-point was attacked there was a unit inside the village

6 ready to intervene on the axis from which the village was being attacked.

7 These were not intervention units which would leave the village and chase

8 the enemy; they would simply close off certain axes to prevent the

9 terrorists from entering the village.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you explain why it would be the Pristina Corps

11 commander that was ordering his various commanders to carry out this

12 exercise of arming these people?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Probably those were his orders from

14 the superior command, the command of the 3rd Army.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Why would that be the case if the appropriate way

16 of dealing with this is through the Pristina Military District?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't really answer that.

18 Probably this was done in coordination with the command of the military

19 district. This was in June 1998 when the military district was quite

20 separate from the command of the Pristina Corps with reference to the

21 chain of command.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Precisely. So that's why I'm asking you, why

23 should the Pristina Corps be involved? Can you help or do you just not

24 know or as a security chief was it not something you were likely to know

25 about or what?

Page 20078

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if you look at the

2 preamble to this document, the first paragraph, it says: "Pursuant to

3 orders from the command of the 3rd Army, strictly confidential order

4 number," such and such, "and the aggravated political and security

5 situation ..." He's ordering the commander of the Pristina Corps to order

6 his subordinate commanders to --

7 JUDGE BONOMY: I've got all that, Mr. Stojanovic. My question is:

8 Why would the Pristina Corps get such an order when the right way to deal

9 with this is through the Pristina Military District, according to you?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, probably because the Pristina

11 Corps had better officers among their personnel, more expert personnel,

12 able to do this, because in the military territorial detachments, I don't

13 know if you want me to tell you this, but these were just a few officers,

14 just some officers who in peacetime sat in those offices in Kosovo.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Were you aware of this order at the time?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: But you can't remember the circumstances? You can

18 only speculate about why this might have been done. Is that the position?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. Quite simply,

20 physically -- well, I'll explain. On the territory of Prizren

21 municipality there are four or five villages. Only five officers were

22 working in the military department. So in physical terms and

23 organizational terms, they would not have been able to carry out this

24 task.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: It's taken a long while to get to that answer.

Page 20079

1 Earlier you told me that you thought they probably had been ordered to do

2 it in conjunction with the military district. It doesn't sound as though

3 you really know anything about this.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm convinced I do know, Your

5 Honour. It says here that the military departments are duty-bound only to

6 organize once weapons had been issued, to organize the villagers for the

7 defence of the village.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

9 Mr. Stamp.

10 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Q. If I could discuss briefly another topic. Many of the reports

12 that you discussed when the counsel for Mr. Lazarevic was asking you

13 questions, that is, reports from your sector, telegram that you sent, used

14 or referred to the sources of information including the RDB, that is, the

15 state security department. And I believe after the war or later on you

16 did say in an interview that much of the information from this source that

17 you relied upon during the war turned out to be wrong, turned out to be

18 unreliable.

19 A. Correct, when it refers to the situation on the state border with

20 the Republic of Albania.

21 Q. And you -- are you aware also that General Dimitrijevic complained

22 about the unreliability of some of the reports that was coming up to the

23 security headquarters in Belgrade from the security section in the

24 Pristina Corps?

25 A. As the chief, General Dimitrijevic never made any remarks about my

Page 20080

1 reports; on the contrary, he was very satisfied with my reports. And

2 there are many records from his visits, his tours, and my reports, and he

3 was very satisfied.

4 Q. Well, we do have a couple documents, one of them being for the

5 record P928, but I just represent to you now that we do have a couple

6 documents of General Dimitrijevic at collegium meetings of the Chief of

7 Staff of the VJ complained to General Ojdanic about the reliability of

8 some of the reports that were coming up. Now never heard of that? You

9 never heard of these complaints?

10 A. I don't know what period General Dimitrijevic's complaints refer

11 to. I told you that in the course of the war I reported to the security

12 department of the 3rd Army, and throughout 1998 also directly to

13 General Dimitrijevic through telegrams, and there was not a single

14 complaint. I repeat, not a single one.

15 Q. Very well. Thank you very much, General.

16 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much, Your Honours. I have nothing

17 further in cross-examination.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Stamp.

19 Mr. Bakrac.

20 Re-examination by Mr. Bakrac:

21 Q. [Interpretation] General, I have some additional questions for

22 you. We can first go back to the document shown to you just a minute ago,

23 P1415. If we can -- yes, we see it on the screen.

24 General, in this document, does this refer to military conscripts

25 or men liable for military service?

Page 20081

1 A. Yes, certainly.

2 Q. Secondly, can we look at item 5 and can you tell me whether it

3 also provides for the storage of these weapons?

4 A. Yes, it describes in detail how the weapons are to be stored which

5 are to be distributed to these conscripts and how they're to be kept under

6 control.

7 Q. And they are military conscripts who have their wartime

8 deployment, right?

9 A. Yes.

10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Can we look at the end of the page,

11 the end of page 1.

12 Q. General, could you interpret what it says in the last sentence

13 there. It says that an active officer should be placed in charge who will

14 be responsible for preparing the units and will stay until the entire

15 defence is set up and the unit trained.

16 Can you explain to us what that means "remain there until the

17 organization of defence is fully completed and the unit trained"?

18 A. Well, that's what I said a moment ago. There was an active

19 officer in charge for each post who was in charge of preparing the units,

20 and it was his duty to remain until everything was set up, the whole

21 organization of defence and until the unit had been trained to handle the

22 weapons they had been issued, so the whole concept of the village's

23 defence should the village come under terrorist attack.

24 Q. But if it says "remain until the unit is trained," does he have

25 any responsibility afterwards?

Page 20082

1 A. No, no authorisations afterwards, just until they are trained, and

2 then he goes back to his own unit.

3 Q. Thank you, General. I'm now going to start off with the

4 cross-examination that my learned colleague Mr. Stamp conducted with you

5 on Friday.

6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] May we take a look at Exhibit P2297,

7 please, and it is -- [No interpretation]

8 JUDGE BONOMY: We have lost interpretation I think.

9 THE INTERPRETER: Can you hear the English? Can you hear the

10 English?

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, we can now.

12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. General, let's take a look at the date, which is the 17th of

14 April, 1999. And my question is this: First of all, the military police

15 battalion, was it an independent battalion?

16 A. Certainly. It was one of the independent battalions linked to the

17 Pristina Corps command.

18 Q. The military police battalion, did it have it commander; and if

19 so, what was the commander's name?

20 A. Just like any other battalion, the 52nd Battalion of the military

21 police had its commander and his name was Major Stevo Kopanja.

22 Q. Part of that battalion and to what extent, was it on the 17th of

23 April resubordinated to the 125th Motorised Brigade?

24 A. Not part of it, no, not to the 125th Motorised Brigade because of

25 the very serious situation along the border towards Albania in the area of

Page 20083

1 responsibility of that brigade, and especially in the Kosare border post

2 where the brigade lost 63 of its members who were killed by the terrorists

3 which were carrying out an all-out offensive from the territory of

4 Albania. It was reinforced, or rather, it was -- a military police

5 company was resubordinated to the 125th Motorised Brigade.

6 Q. Now, we have here the war diary or the war log on our screens.

7 Now, under the 17th of April, can you find that piece of information in

8 the entry there? Does it correspond to what you're testifying about now

9 if we look at the entry for the 17th of April and it's under number

10 2, "our forces," the "cVP," is that the military police company which was

11 attached to the 125th Motorised Brigade?

12 A. Yes, that's right, and it was engaged in fighting against the

13 terrorists in Rasa e Kosare which is around the Kosare border post.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Try to confine yourself to answering the questions

15 and we'll make a lot more progress. We don't need the extra; if

16 Mr. Bakrac wants it, he'll ask for it.

17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. When the military police company was resubordinated to the 125th,

19 who commanded it?

20 A. The commander of the 125th Motorised Brigade.

21 Q. Do you know whether part of that company was replaced at any point

22 in time during April?

23 A. Yes, the company engaged in heavy fighting, and I think that

24 around the 20th of April the deputy battalion commander visited the

25 company and replaced part of the men that were -- and they were pulled out

Page 20084

1 from the fighting in the Kosare border post area.

2 Q. That company, did it in part participate in the action Reka?

3 A. Yes, I said that two platoons from that company took part in the

4 Reka action.

5 Q. General, on Friday, His Honour Judge Chowhan asked you: Why

6 didn't you go to Kosovo and Metohija to conduct an investigation. Now,

7 within the frameworks of the set of questions asked to you by Mr. Stamp

8 yesterday I would like to ask you some questions too. So tell me this,

9 please: When did you leave Kosovo and Metohija?

10 A. I left Kosovo and Metohija on the 16th of June, 1999.

11 Q. The Army of Yugoslavia at the time and the MUP all left Kosovo

12 completely?

13 A. The withdrawal of the army and MUP from Kosovo lasted from the

14 10th to the 20th of June.

15 Q. After that did any state organ or anybody else, were they able to

16 conduct any kind of investigation on the territory of Kosovo and Metohija?

17 A. Well, no, no state organ could enter Kosovo and Metohija at all,

18 let alone conduct any investigations.

19 Q. And can they do that today, to this day?

20 A. No, because the civilian administration of the international

21 community has been set up in Kosovo and Metohija.

22 Q. Yesterday my learned friend Mr. Stamp asked you something about

23 the indictment published at the end of May. Now, I would like to ask you

24 this: Do you know against whom the indictment was raised in May 1999?

25 A. Against the former president of the Federal Republic of

Page 20085

1 Yugoslavia, Mr. Slobodan Milosevic.

2 Q. At the end of May or the beginning of June, apart from that piece

3 of information, did you have any knowledge about the contents of that

4 indictment?

5 A. No, I did not have any information about the contents of the

6 indictment.

7 Q. Did you have any information at that time that in the indictment

8 there was a member of the Pristina Corps perhaps?

9 A. As far as I remember, there was not a single member of the

10 Pristina Corps there in the indictment.

11 Q. The military prosecutor attached to the Pristina Corps command or

12 the military district of Pristina, did you receive any assignment to

13 gather information and data linked to that indictment?

14 A. No, never, not from any organ.

15 Q. Did you receive instructions from the 3rd Army superior security

16 officer to undertake an investigation of any kind?

17 A. No, no instructions at all.

18 Q. General, you testified here and said that between the 1st of June

19 and the 7th of June, 1999, there was a team from the security

20 administration of the Main Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia, so that was

21 after the indictment was published. Did they perhaps give you -- make

22 some demands or give you instructions or did they comment on the

23 indictment and give you certain tasks with respect to investigating

24 anything?

25 A. The team from the security administration who was in the Pristina

Page 20086

1 Corps at the period of time you mentioned made no mention of the

2 indictment at all, nor did they issue any tasks or give me any

3 instructions with regard to the indictment or any security organ, and we

4 toured them together.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Are you saying, Mr. Stojanovic, that when you

6 learned of the indictment you did not know it related to ethnic cleansing,

7 you did not know that it made accusations of Serb forces committing

8 murder? Is that your position?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I learned about the

10 indictment through the information media, and as to the contents of the

11 indictment it was many months later that I had an opportunity of getting

12 to know the specific contents of that indictment.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: My question is simpler than that. Are you saying

14 that the information media did not tell the public that this indictment

15 related to allegations of ethnic cleansing in Kosovo, including murder,

16 committed by Serb forces?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I remember, the indictment

18 referred to all the territories, or rather, the territory of

19 Bosnia-Herzegovina, Croatia, and Kosovo and Metohija, and in it, it said

20 if -- for persecution, killing, the killing of Albanians, civilians, and

21 some other details. So as I say, those are the contents that I knew

22 about, but it was many months later that I learnt about that, far after it

23 had been published.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: This may explain your confusion yesterday about

25 dates because in May 2000 -- in May 1999 there was no indictment relating

Page 20087

1 to Croatia or Bosnia. The only indictment that was issued at that time

2 related to Kosovo. Now, think back and tell us again when it was you

3 first became aware of the indictment against Milosevic and others relating

4 to Kosovo.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I've already said

6 when it was disclosed in the information media in my country.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: So now that we're clear on that, can you remember

8 the date when it was disclosed or roughly how long after the indictment

9 was issued it became public to you?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really can't say. I can't

11 remember, and I don't want to hazard a guess.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: And when you first heard of it were you aware that

13 it related to allegations of ethnic cleansing carried out by Serb forces?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you mean Kosovo, then yes.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: And were you aware also that the allegations

16 included murder on a large scale?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: And it's against that background that you're being

19 asked: Was this not something you felt ought not to be investigated,

20 bearing in mind that apparently the publication was prior to the end of

21 hostilities?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, and I'll give

23 you three reasons. The first is the following, and I said that yesterday:

24 I am quite certain of the work of -- of my work and the police security

25 organs with respect to documenting and prosecuting crimes committed by

Page 20088

1 members of the army. The other reason, the second reason, is this. As of

2 August I was outside the military security service, and I had no authority

3 under the law to undertake any measures to investigate the crimes

4 mentioned on the territory of Kosovo and Metohija. And the third reason,

5 as I've already stressed, no legal court organ issued instructions to me

6 to undertake such measures.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

8 Mr. Bakrac.

9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. Now, General, you've just said you didn't have the authority to do

11 that. Now, as of June until August, while you were in the service, did

12 you have authorisation to act upon the indictment against Milosevic

13 without instructions from the prosecutor or the security administration?

14 A. Certainly not.

15 Q. And immediately after the war, after June, when you returned and

16 when the authority was passed to the prosecution office of the court in

17 Nis and up till August when you were in the security organ from the

18 prosecutor, were you given any assignment in the sense of conducting an

19 investigation?

20 A. No, not a single act in that respect.

21 Q. General, do you know, or rather, you testified and told us that

22 the security organ, the investigating judge, and a team for exhumation

23 conducted an investigation on the -- in the Slovinje locality during the

24 war in 1999. Now, do you know that the UNMIK police in Kosovo launched

25 proceedings against certain civilians on the basis of the findings that,

Page 20089

1 among other things, on the basis of the exhumation results conducted by

2 the Army of Yugoslavia or its professional organs, the investigating

3 judge, the security organ, and the pathologist?

4 A. Yes, on the basis of our criminal report, the one we filed, and

5 our knowledge, the knowledge we gathered, I know that sometime in 2005 I

6 believe, five individuals from the Lipljan area, which is where Slovinje

7 is located, were taken into custody and were prosecuted for the crimes

8 stipulated that took place in the locality and this was based on our data

9 and information, and it was seen that they were not members of the Army of

10 Yugoslavia.

11 Q. General, my learned friend Mr. Stamp asked you something about the

12 corpses found in Batajnica. Now, do you have any knowledge and

13 information to the effect that the Army of Yugoslavia took part anywhere

14 in digging up the bodily remains in any area in Kosovo and Metohija and

15 transporting them to Serbia? Do you have any knowledge of that, and then

16 burying them in some other locations in Serbia?

17 A. The members of the Army of Yugoslavia on the territory of Kosovo

18 and Metohija never took part in digging up any dead bodies or transporting

19 any dead bodies to other localities outside the territory of Kosovo and

20 Metohija.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: What's the basis for your confidence in that?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm certain of this on

23 the basis of the counter-intelligence operation situation which I

24 monitored daily in my units through my organs, and if something like that

25 had happened, I would certainly have had to know about it.

Page 20090

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Are you saying only if it was something that

2 happened at the instance of the army, or are you saying that if any group

3 exhumed a number of bodies and transported them out of Kosovo that you

4 would know about it?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would know only if that happened

6 in the presence of the army or with the participation of the army.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bakrac.

8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. General, yesterday you told us -- tell me this: Mr. Djakovic came

10 to the position of the operations officer in the Pristina Corps, and after

11 that who replaced him? You say that in 1999 Mr. Radojko Stefanovic

12 arrived. Up to that point in time, up to the arrival of

13 Radojko Stefanovic, was somebody else the operations officer after

14 Djakovic, can you remember?

15 A. After Colonel Djakovic left his duty in January 1999, I think,

16 there was a period of time when there was no chief of the operative

17 affairs department. This was rather the first desk officer,

18 Colonel Ratko Tesovic, who was the acting officer.

19 Q. Did Colonel Radojko Stefanovic, when he took over the duty of the

20 operations organ of the Pristina Corps, did he attend meetings of the

21 Joint Command?

22 A. Colonel Radojko Stefanovic, as I said, went to see the MUP

23 operations officer occasionally for them to coordinate actions that had to

24 be carried out, but there was nothing like a Joint Command. Are you

25 asking me about 1999? I don't know of the existence of any Joint Command

Page 20091

1 at that time.

2 Q. General, yesterday my learned friend Mr. Stamp showed you a

3 document signed by Djindjic, and you explained what post he held. Are you

4 aware whether your colleague from the 3rd Army, who was your superior in

5 the professional sense, do you know whether he ever attended meetings of

6 the Joint Command in 1999 [as interpreted] --

7 THE INTERPRETER: 1998, interpreter's correction.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 1998 I think once or twice, but I

9 think it was only once actually.

10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Do you allow for the possibility that he might have learned some

12 operative information at such a meeting?

13 A. Well, I've already told you, those were meetings where information

14 was exchanged between the MUP, the state security, and the army concerning

15 the current security situation. I assume he carefully listened to what

16 the colleagues from the other domains said about the situation, and they

17 listened to what he said.

18 Q. General, my learned friend Mr. Stamp also asked you something

19 about security for the meeting held on the 1st of June, 1999, and he asked

20 you whether you knew about that meeting. My question is: The plan of

21 providing security for the commander, to the best of your knowledge, is it

22 made for each individual visit of his or trip or is it a long-term plan,

23 created for a longer period of time?

24 A. In the security department there was my assistant for staff

25 security affairs, and it was his task to guide the work of the military

Page 20092

1 police, to provide security for the facilities and persons who are

2 entitled to security by law. The security plans are drawn up monthly and

3 they are delivered to the battalion commander of the military police, who

4 is to implement those plans.

5 Q. We heard from many witnesses here, and you confirmed that in the

6 Grand Hotel there was an information centre and a place where post was

7 exchanged. Did this information centre and centre for the exchange of

8 post, where strictly confidential documents also arrived, was it

9 constantly guarded by the military police?

10 A. Yes. I said that in the course of the war the command of the

11 Pristina Corps was dispersed in several locations outside Pristina. The

12 only element that remained in the town itself, for a thousand reasons, was

13 that information centre. And as there was a constant danger because

14 terrorists entered the town itself dressed in civilian clothes, so there

15 was a military police unit that was constantly guarding that information

16 centre because we had to protect it from terrorist attacks. There were

17 also two policemen there inspecting the mail to ensure there was no

18 sabotage. This is also done in peacetime today at every point where post

19 is received and sent out. There are always two policemen there to inspect

20 the mail for possible sabotage.

21 Q. General, I wanted a shorter reply, so please try to be brief

22 because our time is running out. So you were not at the meeting on the

23 1st of June, or rather, you said you were but had you not attended that

24 meeting would you have learned later on that the meeting had been held, in

25 view of the fact that the security plans are drawn up monthly?

Page 20093

1 A. Yes.

2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Could we now have P2945, please.

3 Q. It's a newspaper article and my learned friend Mr. Stamp showed

4 you a document --

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Before moving on, so I understand this last point

6 fully.

7 How is it you would learn later that the meeting had been held?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I said that a security

9 plan for security for the commander is drawn up, and the -- then this is

10 reported and the reports came to me every morning concerning the problems

11 of providing security for the commander.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Reporting on the day before or on the plans for the

13 day ahead?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He reports on the previous day and

15 on the plans for the following day.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Does that mean there's a good chance you knew about

17 the meeting before it took place?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you're asking about the meeting

19 in the Grand Hotel, it was held without previous notice because, as I

20 learned, Mr. Sainovic arrived from Belgrade to inform us about the

21 negotiations and how they were proceeding.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

23 Mr. Bakrac.

24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Could we now see page 2 of this text. Could we zoom in on

Page 20094

1 document number 2.

2 Q. General, before we look at this document in detail, you're an

3 officer with one of the highest ranks in the army and I'm sure you can

4 tell us this. Whenever a document is sent to a subordinate command or to

5 a superior command, the addressee, where according to the Rules of

6 Service, on what part of the page, is the addressee mentioned?

7 A. According to the Rules for Official Correspondence in the Army of

8 Yugoslavia, the address to which an official army document is being sent

9 is in the upper right-hand corner.

10 Q. We've seen some documents where the addressee's also on the

11 left-hand side.

12 A. Only telegrams sent to units have the addressee on the left-hand

13 side.

14 Q. Did it ever happen that the address of any command where the

15 superior or subordinate is placed in the middle of the page?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Why then is this title "to the Joint Command for Kosovo and

18 Metohija" in the middle?

19 A. Well, this document was not sent to any institution or any

20 command. It's a document given to an operations officer and it contains

21 information on terrorist activities. It's not addressed to any

22 institution or command, otherwise according to the rules it would have had

23 to be placed in the upper right-hand corner.

24 Q. Thank you, General. And I will have only one more question.

25 Yesterday my learned friend Mr. Stamp asked you more than once whether

Page 20095

1 there was any commander who was held responsible for the crimes committed

2 by his subordinates. As you were in the security organ, are you aware

3 that the Yugoslav Criminal Code in 1999 contained the institute of command

4 responsibility?

5 A. No, this was not provided for in the law at that time.

6 Q. Thank you, General.

7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, those were all my

8 questions.

9 [Trial Chamber confers]

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stojanovic, that completes your evidence.

11 Thank you for coming to give evidence. You're now free to leave the

12 courtroom.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 [The witness withdrew]

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bakrac, who is your next witness?

16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, our next witness is

17 Novica Stamenkovic.

18 [The witness entered court]

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Good afternoon, Mr. Stamenkovic.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Would you please make the solemn declaration to

22 speak the truth by reading aloud the document which will now be shown to

23 you.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

25 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Page 20096

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Please be seated.

2 You'll now be examined by Mr. Bakrac on behalf of Mr. Lazarevic.

3 Mr. Bakrac.

4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.


6 [Witness answered through interpreter]

7 Examination by Mr. Bakrac:

8 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Stamenkovic.

9 A. Good afternoon.

10 Q. Please be so kind to introduce yourself for the record. Tell us

11 your first and last name and your place and date of birth.

12 A. My name is Novica Stamenkovic, I was born on the 2nd of September,

13 1949.

14 Q. Can you give us some basic information about your military career.

15 A. I completed the military academy for the ground forces, the

16 traffic service, in 1972. The command staff school for tactics, I

17 graduated from that in 1985, and then I went to the School of National

18 Defence which I completed in 1996.

19 Q. Please be kind enough to tell us what was your last duty in the

20 Army of Yugoslavia and when your service in the army terminated.

21 A. My last duty was assistant commander of the 3rd Army for the rear,

22 and it ceased on the 1st of January, 2003.

23 Q. And what is your status now?

24 A. I am now a military pensioner, I'm retired.

25 Q. And your rank?

Page 20097

1 A. Colonel.

2 Q. Colonel, what duties did you perform in the course of 1998 and

3 1999?

4 A. In 1998 and 1999, I was the chief of the organ for operations and

5 rear affairs in the organ for the rear of the command of the 3rd Army.

6 Q. Can you tell us what were the duties of the organ at whose head

7 you were at that time?

8 A. The main competencies of that organ in 1998 and 1999 were the

9 following: Operative and planning work in the organs for the rear, then

10 monitoring and proposing of measures for the building up of

11 combat-readiness of the rear units which by establishment were

12 subordinated to the commander for the rear, this was the 549th Automobile

13 Battalion, 186th technical centre, the Nis military medical centre, and

14 units which by special orders were placed within the competence of the

15 commander for the rear, the 201st and 202nd rear base and the Nis military

16 hospital. And there was also another important competency, and that was

17 coordinating the work of the organs in the rear and coordinating the rear

18 organs with the other organs in the command of the army, and there were

19 other tasks as well.

20 Q. I don't need the details, but just explain what rear security

21 entailed.

22 A. Security of the rear was defined by the rules, two, in peacetime

23 and in wartime, two rules, but the essence of all of them are is that

24 there were measures and steps that the command staffs, administrations,

25 and units of the army are engaged in, in order to in peacetime create

Page 20098

1 conditions conducive to combat training and preparation for wartime, and

2 in wartime to create conditions for the combat units to be as successful

3 as possible in waging a national war of defence.

4 Q. Colonel, I'm going to ask you for less theory and more specifics

5 and practical facts, and tell us what the rear did.

6 A. It was to supply the combat and non-combat units with food, to

7 maintain vehicles and technical equipment in working order, health care

8 and protection, veterinary care and protection, protection against fires,

9 and any other special tasks needed.

10 Q. Can you explain to us briefly how the rear security was organized

11 of the 3rd Army in wartime?

12 A. The General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia and the 3rd Army

13 command -- the 3rd Army command was the protagonist of security for the

14 rear in its area of responsibility for all army units and also for the

15 units of the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia and the command of

16 the air force and anti-air defence in its own area. And in implementing

17 the tasks, it relied on the central rear base of the General Staff of the

18 Army of Yugoslavia, the medical military academy, and so on and so forth.

19 Q. Did you also rely on the capacities in the territory?

20 A. In carrying out our tasks for rear security, we relied in part on

21 the capacities of the territory or society, that is to say the railroads,

22 the traffic and transport companies, the food producers, pharmaceutical

23 producers, clothing manufacturers, and so on and so forth.

24 Q. Because you needed to use the capacities that the state provided,

25 was it necessary for the rear organs to cooperate with anyone in that

Page 20099

1 respect?

2 A. For the rear security to function successfully, it was

3 indispensable to cooperate with all the organs of power and authority and

4 the leaders of the companies I mentioned, companies that provided services

5 or provided supplies for the Army of Yugoslavia.

6 Q. Now, these competencies and authorisations of the organs for rear

7 security, were they regulated by law?

8 A. The Law on Defence regulated the competencies and authorisations

9 of the units of the Army of Yugoslavia, and similarly the rights and

10 duties of the organs of power and authority, the work organizations, and

11 indeed individuals in offering services, providing services, and creating

12 material conditions for the functioning of the army.

13 Q. Were there any separate legal provisions or orders for situations

14 to proclaim a state of war on the territory?

15 A. Of course. The Law on Defence defined the rights and duties of

16 all the factors involved in the proclamation of a state of war and during

17 a war itself, and we all adhered to those provisions, when the war

18 started, or rather, the aggression against the Federal Republic of

19 Yugoslavia started. But the commanders of the units at the different

20 levels of command from the army, the corps, via the brigades also issued

21 their own orders and instructions regulating in greater detail the

22 implementation of certain activities, rights, and duties in wartime.

23 Q. Now, these orders, were they dovetailed with the Law on Defence?

24 A. All orders were based on the Law on Defence, which was in force at

25 the time.

Page 20100

1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Law on Defence is

2 Exhibit P985, and the special orders that were issued on the basis of that

3 law of the 3rd Army and the Pristina Corps are Exhibit 5D378 and 5D353.

4 For us to move more speedily along, just for the record, I draw the Trial

5 Chamber's attention to those documents without needing to pull them up.

6 Q. Now, Colonel, what was the organization of the rear security of

7 the Yugoslav Army units in the area of the Pristina Corps?

8 A. The army command, through its orders and chart for rear security,

9 determined the protagonist of security in the Pristina Corps zone and the

10 competence of those organs applied to establishment units of the Pristina

11 Corps and the reinforce units sent to the Pristina Corps for the units of

12 the anti-aircraft defence as well deployed in the Pristina Corps area, and

13 for army units of the General Staff in that same zone.

14 Q. Can you tell us which sources of supply for the Yugoslav Army

15 units in Kosovo and Metohija existed during the war?

16 A. The sources of supply for the Yugoslav Army units in Kosovo and

17 Metohija during the war were first and foremost their own reserves, the

18 units' reserves, that is to say what we called wartime reserves; then

19 transitory reserves in the garrisons and reserves of the superior commands

20 and the reserves which were located on the territory, or rather,

21 contracted quantities of produces which the producers sent to the rear

22 security organs and also there was a commission for procurement and this

23 was placed -- this was paid for at a lower level, or rather, at a local

24 level on the market.

25 Q. Now, what was the cooperation with MUP like in Kosovo and Metohija

Page 20101

1 with respect to realizing the tasks of rear security?

2 A. As for the organs of the Ministry of the Interior in Kosovo and

3 Metohija, the rear organs had to cooperate constantly and continuously.

4 In the barracks in Kosovo and Metohija, there was separate premises for

5 putting up MUP units, so it was logical for the rear security to act

6 together. That is to say their food, water, washing of clothes, and so

7 on, that's what it applied to. Now --

8 Q. When you say that MUP facilities were built, whose facilities were

9 they, military facilities or MUP?

10 A. They were MUP buildings but within the barracks compounds, that

11 means they weren't military facilities in actual fact.

12 Q. I interrupted you. You wanted to say something?

13 A. Yes. As for the organs of the rear, one of the main forms of

14 cooperation with the MUP was to ensure the safety of movement and passage

15 of vehicles, that was a joint task to ensure that the roads were open and

16 traffic -- but traffic control came exclusively under the MUP organs.

17 Q. Yes, could you please slow down, Witness.

18 A. Yes. It was necessary to provide security for the military

19 columns and supply columns.

20 Q. What measures were taken to ensure the successful functioning of

21 security of the rear in Kosovo and Metohija during the war?

22 A. When the competent authorities assessed that the attack on the

23 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was imminent, then the rear organs

24 undertook a series of measures to ensure that it functioned properly

25 during the war, and I'm going to mention some of those measures. First of

Page 20102

1 all, accelerated maintenance and repair of all combat systems; second,

2 replenishment with the proper cadres in all the units of the corps; next,

3 all the combat devices were brought up to standard as well as the

4 non-combat means, so that in the units, brigades, regiments, and so on,

5 that we had a food reserve for 30 days and for separate units for a

6 different period of time, tins and so on, which means that they could be

7 independent if the food-chain were to be cut. Then we took another

8 important measure, it was the dispersion and resettlement -- or relocation

9 of material resources of the unit to avoid their destruction.

10 Q. Colonel, you're a traffic officer, an officer of the traffic

11 service, and I'm interested in now to hear about the principles and ways

12 in which motor vehicles and fuel supplies were regulated.

13 A. Can I say something about fuel supplies first. We had logistical

14 bases to supply the units from their own warehouses which were in

15 Prokuplje and Velika Grabovica, those two towns.

16 Q. Now, your supplies, did they come from the fuel depot in Pristina,

17 in Obilic, for example?

18 A. The Jugopetrol and Beopetrol fuel depots in Pristina and Obilic

19 were civilian depots, and the army did not have direct cooperation with

20 them because the logistics basis would get their fuel from the oil

21 refinery in Pancevo, directly from the producers, that is.

22 Q. Tell us, please, Colonel, something about the motor vehicles and

23 how you had the necessary supply of motor vehicles and ensured it for the

24 Pristina Corps?

25 A. Pursuant to the Law on Defence, supplies for the army,

Page 20103

1 replenishment of supplies, came from the army fund, 50 per cent, and 50

2 per cent were vehicles taken from the capacities of the territory, that is

3 to say from work organizations and individuals. And that was how the

4 Pristina Corps received its supplies and replenishment. The situation was

5 more favourable with regard to some vehicles. From the army fund there

6 was the heavy-duty vehicles mostly and trucks that did not exist on the

7 territory, whereas the majority of heavy-duty and -- trucks and passenger

8 vehicles were supplied by the defence ministry and their local branches,

9 my mobilising the vehicles and replenishment to make the fund up to

10 scratch.

11 Q. So the law provided for a mobilisation plan for motor vehicles to

12 be devised, taking them from companies and civilians alike?

13 A. Yes. The overall mobilisation plan meant replenishment of

14 vehicles, and this was done in all the units.

15 Q. In such cases, was compensation envisaged?

16 A. For every vehicle that was recruited and used for the needs of the

17 army or suffered damage, compensation was paid to the owner according to

18 the regulations. There was a piece of legislation in place governing

19 this.

20 Q. What was the replenishment of vehicles in the Pristina Corps at

21 the beginning of the war?

22 A. In early 1999 the Pristina Corps had about 50 per cent of the

23 vehicles it needed from the -- from one fund and 50 per cent from another.

24 The army fund -- the corps was missing about 2.000 vehicles, rather, it

25 was 232.000.

Page 20104

1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- And 33 vehicles of various kinds.

3 In the Pristina Corps the 201st rear base --

4 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please slow down.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A number of institutions needed

6 another 2.000 units so that the units in that area would have the required

7 number of vehicles.

8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Could you please slow down a little bit because we will have

10 errors in the transcript. We already have.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: These figures need to be clarified.

12 Can you deal with that, Mr. Bakrac?

13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

14 Q. Could you please speak a little slower so that we don't have to go

15 back again because then we waste a lot more time. I asked you what was

16 the number of vehicles in the Pristina Corps at the beginning of the war.

17 Could you please answer slowly.

18 A. In early 1999, in the Pristina Corps, there were about 50 per cent

19 vehicles from the army per cent and 50 per cent from the list fund. For a

20 completely replenishment the Pristina Corps lacked about 2.000 vehicles,

21 or more precisely, 2.033 vehicles, and about 2.000 vehicles were lacking

22 for the units of the army and the air force and anti-aircraft defence on

23 the territory of the Pristina Corps, which is a further 2.000 vehicles.

24 May I continue?

25 Q. Yes, those were the needs, but what vehicles did they have?

Page 20105

1 A. The possibility of obtaining all this did not exist in Kosovo and

2 Metohija, so the Pristina Corps from the list fund on the territory of

3 Kosovo and Metohija secured only about 30 per cent of its own needs, and

4 the remainder was on the so-called ex-territorial principle.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: What is the list fund?

6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I was trying to ask the

7 witness to explain this, as we will move on to another topic after the

8 break.

9 Q. Can you please explain what the list fund is?

10 A. Well, the list fund in military terminology means motor vehicles

11 which under the Law on Defence working on organizations and individuals

12 under the plan of the regional organs of the Ministry of Defence give to

13 the army for the army's needs so the vehicles are used by the army.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: You see, an earlier answer said there were 50 per

15 cent vehicles from the army per cent and 50 per cent from the list fund,

16 and now we hear that the list fund is what the army actually provide. It

17 might have helped if you would get an answer to your original question

18 which was: How many vehicles did the Pristina Corps have.

19 Can you answer that in relation to early 1999?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Pristina Corps in its

21 composition had about 50 per cent of its establishment needs with

22 military vehicles.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: No, no, the number of vehicles, please. We don't

24 know the establishment need. Just tell us the numbers.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The needs were 4.600-odd vehicles,

Page 20106

1 whereas they had 2.100 vehicles.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

3 Well, we'll break there for 20 minutes. Mr. Stamenkovic, we have

4 to have a break at this stage. While we have that break, could you please

5 leave the courtroom with the usher.

6 [The witness stands down]

7 JUDGE BONOMY: We shall resume at five minutes past 4.00.

8 --- Recess taken at 3.46 p.m.

9 --- On resuming at 4.07 p.m.

10 [The witness takes the stand]

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bakrac.

12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. Mr. Stamenkovic, before the break we started talking about motor

14 vehicles. Some witnesses of the Prosecution spoke before this Tribunal

15 about the theft and confiscation of civilian vehicles in Kosovo and

16 Metohija by the army. What do you know about that?

17 A. I assert that as for organized theft, confiscation, looting,

18 robbery, and so on of vehicles by the army, there was none of that. The

19 army had its regular methods of obtaining vehicles. There may have been

20 thefts of vehicles by individuals, but the competent organs always acted

21 to prevent that and to prosecute the perpetrators. And such vehicles were

22 always kept by the organs that were competent to do that.

23 Q. And what happened to persons who were found to be in possession of

24 such vehicles and who were members of the Army of Yugoslavia?

25 A. Members of the Army of Yugoslavia who unlawfully took a vehicle

Page 20107

1 from someone were arrested and prosecuted before the competent military

2 courts, and the vehicles were confiscated from them and pursuant to

3 decisions issued by the courts returned to their owners or otherwise

4 disposed of as the court decided.

5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Could we now look at Exhibit 5D189.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Just before moving, is this an exhibit that relates

7 to this subject, Mr. Bakrac?

8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the exhibit I have

9 called up is an order issued by the corps commander for the use --

10 engagement and use of military vehicles.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Before we do that.

12 Mr. Stamenkovic, can you tell us how often orders were made

13 returning vehicles that had been wrongly confiscated to their owners?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, with the occurrence of

15 unlawful confiscation, commands at all levels including the corps command

16 and the brigade command issued their own orders to prevent theft and --

17 JUDGE BONOMY: That's not my question. Please, just answer the

18 question I've asked you. How many orders do you know of that were made

19 returning vehicles to owners where these vehicles had been confiscated

20 from them? We haven't seen any yet in this court, and I would like you to

21 tell me about them.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the commands of units

23 cannot restore a wrong fully confiscated vehicle to its owner without a

24 judicial decision --

25 JUDGE BONOMY: That's what I'm asking you about. You told us

Page 20108

1 there were decisions made by the courts returning vehicles to their

2 owners. I want you to tell me about some of these. Let's put meat on the

3 skeleton.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, to the best of my

5 knowledge, up to the time of my retirement, about 70 per cent of all the

6 vehicles that were found or confiscated were restored to their owners

7 through decisions handed down by courts, but I cannot give you the exact

8 number.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Do you actually know anything about this?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I know of some examples. For

11 example, a bus was restored to a privately owned company in Prizren which

12 proved that it was the owner of the bus and the command of the 160th

13 technical training centre was where the handover took place and the

14 vehicle was restored to its owner.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: And when was that?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was in the year 2000.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: And when was it confiscated?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 1999, during the war.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: And you said 70 per cent of all that had been

20 confiscated were restored. How many does that amount to?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] About 600-odd vehicles.

22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the type of

23 confiscation, how he learned about it, I don't want to interrupt you but I

24 was planning to ask about those.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: We have actually seen documents which give figures

Page 20109

1 for confiscated vehicles I think, but I was concerned about this question

2 of court orders which I don't think we've seen, but I may be wrong about

3 that. If I am, please tell me.

4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. We did not see the

5 court orders. I asked through the National Council to give us an overview

6 of how many vehicles were restored by the courts, but I'm still waiting

7 for that. We did apply to the National Council in October to get that

8 information through the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia, but this

9 witness will testify to the best of his knowledge. I'll ask him about the

10 types of vehicles.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well.

12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation].

13 Q. Colonel, this is an order of the corps commander dated the 12th of

14 April. Can you explain to us what this refers to?

15 A. Yes. This order was issued pursuant to a similar order delivered

16 to the corps command from the army command, and it refers to the

17 following: In order to properly use motor vehicles from the list, as they

18 are no different from civilian vehicles, they have to be used according to

19 certain rules, they have to be marked, they have to be used according to

20 establishment, and those which are outside the system have to be deployed,

21 secured, and guarded according to our military regulations.

22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Can we look at the next page.

23 Q. And can you briefly comment on items 6 and 8?

24 A. In item 6 there is an order that all the motor vehicles recruited

25 for the use of the Army of Yugoslavia have to have documents in good

Page 20110

1 order, both for the vehicle and for the driver. And the organs of the

2 military traffic police on all public roads and other areas where vehicles

3 move would check this, and if there are individuals without the proper

4 documents, they will be held responsible, and this would include criminal

5 responsibility, arrest, and so on and so forth. Also, the commanders of

6 units where officers and individuals use such vehicles would also be held

7 responsible, certain command measures would be taken against them.

8 Q. You said in item 4 that all the vehicles had to be marked, the

9 civilian licence plates were not to be removed, and they had to be

10 specially marked.

11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Let's now look at 5D1274.

12 Q. And can you tell us what this represents and what is usually

13 entered into a form of this kind.

14 A. As we can see on the screen, this is a sign which, according to

15 the rules regulating the marking of motor vehicles in the army, was used

16 to mark motor vehicles from the list which were used in the Army of

17 Yugoslavia. And on that sign, along with the number of the military post

18 or the unit to which it belonged, there also had to be a signature and a

19 stamp of the unit commander so that this would be the only valid form.

20 Because a sign is not a sign of belonging unless it is verified by a

21 stamp.

22 Q. The -- are these the orders of the corps commander and the

23 subordinate commander, did they --

24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Let's look at 5D663.

25 Q. -- And I would like to know whether these orders were implemented

Page 20111

1 in practice.

2 A. Yes. The commanders of subordinate units issued their own orders.

3 Here we see an order of the command of the 243rd Mechanised Brigade

4 regulating the procedure when motor vehicles are confiscated, and he says

5 specifically that all motor vehicles which are illegally obtained or were

6 used by military persons but were the object of a crime have to be

7 specially located and secured with guards from the unit. And for all such

8 units records were kept and the superior command was informed, whereas

9 only a military court at the Pristina Corps command could issue decisions

10 on the use of these vehicles. Vehicles which were found on the roads also

11 had to be specially marked and could not be used without special approval.

12 Q. We'll come to that and we'll see what happened to motor vehicles

13 which were found as opposed to those obtained through a criminal act. But

14 was this order really implemented? Were special locations established

15 where motor vehicles obtained through criminal actions were kept along

16 with all the appropriate records?

17 A. Yes. When inspecting the units of the Pristina Corps, I noticed

18 those parking lots, they really existed, there were various vehicles on

19 them, they were guarded, and I'm aware of that.

20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Can we look at Exhibit 5D487, please.

21 Q. Can you comment briefly on item 3(b). There seems to be a rather

22 vigorous warning here for those who obtained vehicles through crimes. Can

23 we see here any cases provided for under item 3 and why was this order

24 issued?

25 A. The commander of the 354th Brigade ordered in item 3, under (b),

Page 20112

1 that motor vehicles and drivers without the proper documents should be

2 detained and brought in, and that the most stringent measures should be

3 taken against such drivers. This was done so that you could not find

4 military vehicles that were improperly marked on the roads, especially not

5 those obtained through criminal offences such as theft.

6 Q. Colonel, I'll ask you now to look at 5D188, and using the example

7 of this order let's try to have you explain what was understood by "found"

8 and "confiscated" motor vehicles. Look at this order issued by the

9 Pristina Corps command dated the 12th of April, 1999, and comment on item

10 4, please. Does this refer to vehicles which were obtained through a

11 criminal offence?

12 A. Item 4 of this order says that all motor vehicles which were

13 illegally obtained and used by military personnel and which constitute

14 objects of a crime should be placed in a special parking area which shall

15 be established and that this parking area shall be guarded by members of

16 the military police units, and prescribed criminal documentation and

17 records shall be kept for each vehicle, a copy of the documents shall be

18 kept in the vehicle, these vehicles shall only be used pursuant to a

19 decision of the Pristina military court.

20 Q. Item 5 refers to found vehicles. Can you explain what found

21 vehicles were?

22 A. Well, to clarify this, I have to explain first what in our

23 terminology was meant by "found vehicles." Found vehicles were all

24 vehicles found on public roads or other areas of which the owner was

25 unknown, the owner was not present, and they were obstructing traffic.

Page 20113

1 These were found vehicles. Such vehicles were removed from the roads and

2 a special parking area was established, also under guard, and these

3 vehicles could be used only if they were needed by the unit to carry out

4 its tasks, but by no means could they be used for private purposes. They

5 were marked and they were used because -- to make up for the numbers

6 missing of vehicles from the list.

7 Q. His Honour Judge Bonomy asked you: Can you tell me what was done

8 with these vehicles after the war?

9 A. After the end of the war, all mobilised motor vehicles, mobilised

10 according to plan, were restored to their owners, who had been issued with

11 the documents when the vehicles were handed over. So they were able to

12 use these documents to retrieve their vehicles; if the vehicles had been

13 damaged or destroyed, they were compensated. Those vehicles which were

14 confiscated were kept in the units until the competent courts, whether

15 civil or military, handed down the proper decisions on what should be done

16 with those vehicles.

17 Q. Why, Colonel, were these vehicles not left in Kosovo and Metohija

18 when the army and the police retreated from Kosovo, when they withdrew?

19 A. Well, when the army and MUP withdrew from the area of Kosovo and

20 Metohija, the vehicles could not be left behind because the civilian

21 authorities were not functioning and there were no organs, even the UNMIK

22 police was not functioning then, so there was nobody to whom the

23 documentation should -- could be left and units would then have a proper

24 way of relieving themselves of that responsibility. So they took the

25 vehicles with them. Some of those vehicles were restored to their owners

Page 20114

1 from the new locations if the owners were able to prove that they were the

2 owners or if the courts handed down the appropriate decision. For

3 example, there was a work organization Binacka Morava from Gnjilane and

4 their vehicles were restored in the Vranje garrison where the units that

5 had those had been relocated.

6 Q. I have already said here that the Defence applied to the General

7 Staff level to get this data through the cooperation council, but what I

8 want to know is how you know this information you're giving us now.

9 A. Well, I told you, until the 1st of January, 2003, I was assistant

10 commander for the rear, the traffic service as part of the rear organ was

11 subordinated to me, they kept these records, so I know that from their

12 reports, and that's why I have this information. When the army command

13 started to be disbanded, the problem of the restoration of vehicles were

14 handed over to the traffic administration of the General Staff of the Army

15 of Yugoslavia, so I don't have the final numbers.

16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I apologise for interrupting, but my

17 colleague Mr. Petrovic has just arrived from Belgrade and has joined us

18 here in the courtroom, and we were told that quite soon we would have

19 through the National Council this exhibit, and I'll then put it on the bar

20 table and ask that it be introduced through the bar table. Thank you.

21 Q. Colonel, as assistant commander for the 3rd Army of the rear, did

22 you know the rear organs for the Pristina Corps?

23 A. As an officer of the traffic service, for many years I was in the

24 rear organs, especially as assistant for the rear, and I knew almost all

25 the officers in the rear who occupied leading posts. For example, in the

Page 20115

1 Pristina Corps the assistant for the rear, he was Colonel Petrovic, I knew

2 him, and the chief of the technical service, Colonel Brankovic the medical

3 corps, Rankovic. Well, I knew them for 15 or 16 years and as far as the

4 chief of the traffic service is concerned, Colonel Simunovic, I have known

5 him for 25 or 26 years, so I knew people who occupied leadership

6 positions.

7 Q. Did you cooperate with these people during the war?

8 A. I did cooperate with these people, both before the war and during

9 the war so that cooperation was on a continuous basis.

10 Q. Did you know an officer from the procurement department of the

11 Pristina Corps command?

12 A. The procurement department in the organs for the rear of the

13 Pristina Corps -- that doesn't exist. A long time ago in 1985 or 1986,

14 these procurement departments in the army were abolished and were never

15 established anymore. The only thing that existed was the administration

16 for procurement and military equipment and were attached to the Ministry

17 of Defence and nowhere else.

18 Q. Colonel, we have heard witness Lakic Djorovic testify here, and in

19 his testimony and statement to the Prosecution he mentioned an officer by

20 the name of Tijanic from the procurement department of the Pristina Corps.

21 Did you know somebody with that name?

22 A. Tijanic, and being in a procurement department which does not

23 exist of the Pristina Corps and it never existed, ever since the Pristina

24 Corps was under the 3rd Army command, and that is since 1988, so never.

25 Q. Colonel, can you tell us, or rather, explain to us more precisely

Page 20116

1 the way in which donations were used, gifts, and other things of that

2 nature, and were there any cases of that?

3 A. There were donations, there were gifts from the territory, and

4 upon the arrival of those resources to the units, this is what was done.

5 A commission could take them on, then they would be checked to see that

6 they were in proper order, and then they were recorded and placed in

7 depots and warehouses and used like any other devices for the

8 replenishment of units.

9 Q. The Army of Yugoslavia, did it apply confiscation or

10 requisitioning of resources in 1999?

11 A. No. Although those methods are provided for in the Law on

12 Defence, the Yugoslav Army did not use that; it used capacities from the

13 territory exclusively through the competent organs in Kosovo and Metohija,

14 this was the provincial executive -- Temporary Executive Council so that

15 there was no need to resort to that, although it was provided for by the

16 law.

17 Q. Colonel, can you explain to us the notion and concept of war

18 booty.

19 A. The term war booty implies resources which arrived in army units

20 through combat. At the end of combat, when the battle-field was checked

21 and investigated, different things were found, weapons, medicines,

22 clothing, weapons, and whole depots and warehouses of the terrorists in

23 Kosovo, so that was considered war booty.

24 Q. Colonel, let's look at 5D186 together now, please, and then you

25 can tell us whether this is an example of the corps command --

Page 20117

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bakrac.

2 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: One moment, please, Mr. Bakrac. I'd like to go

3 back to page 46, lines 23 to 25 -- I'm sorry, page 45, lines 23 to 25,

4 when you asked about the witness Lakic Djorovic and what he testified

5 concerning an officer by the name of Tijanic from the procurement

6 department of the Pristina Corps. Did you know somebody with that name?

7 I'm not certain that the answer given appropriately addresses the question

8 which you had posed of the witness, so I would not mind if you could get a

9 more precise answer from him for my understanding. Thank you.

10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Yes, I'll do

11 my best to get a more precise answer.

12 Q. Colonel, I don't want to repeat all this, but a witness said here

13 in court something. Now, in the Pristina Corps was there a procurement

14 department, did that ever exist?

15 A. No.

16 Q. In the Pristina Corps was there any individual in charge of

17 procurement of any type and whose name was -- or whose surname was

18 Tijanic?

19 A. No.

20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know whether

21 that suffices?

22 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Thank you, yes.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: That doesn't I think really complete the answer.

24 Did you know someone in the corps called Tijanic?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

Page 20118

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

2 Mr. Bakrac.

3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. I wanted us to look at 5D186 now, and I'd like to have your

5 comments to item 1 and tell me whether the corps command regulated the way

6 in which war booty was dealt with.

7 A. The corps command and all the units in depth regulated the way in

8 which war booty was collected and in item 1 it says: "Every unit the size

9 of a brigade regiment form a commission for collecting war booty, which

10 will conduct inspection and identification and make an inventory and

11 record of the assets seized."

12 Q. And was that what was done?

13 A. Yes, exclusively, that was precisely what was done with war booty.

14 Q. Colonel, now sanitization of the terrain, "asanacija," does that

15 come within the remit of the rear security?

16 A. When I spoke about the organs which I headed, I spoke about

17 special activities and the sanitization of the terrain is comprised there

18 because the law -- the regulation which determines sanitization was

19 compiled by the administration of the General Staff, so yes, that does

20 come within its competency.

21 Q. Can you explain to us what sanitization of the terrain actually

22 means, its importance and significance?

23 A. The sanitization of the terrain implies and incorporates giving

24 assistance to any wounded persons left in the terrain; then to uncover,

25 identify, bodies, the bodies of those killed in order that they be buried;

Page 20119

1 then doing away with anything that is -- presents a danger to humans and

2 animals to ensure that the terrain is sanitary and that life can evolve in

3 the terrain. So the object of sanitization is to find any people who

4 might be wounded and give assistance; then to find dead bodies in order to

5 be able to bury them and identify them; and to protect the living

6 environment, that is to say to protect the units, the people, the

7 population, and the general environment to keep it healthy.

8 Q. In the 3rd Army and in the Pristina Corps, how was sanitization

9 regulated, matters of sanitization?

10 A. The 3rd Army command in the Pristina Corps, sanitization was

11 regulated on a basis of a number of orders. Orders and instructions were

12 issued for sanitization to take place on the basis of the guide-lines and

13 instructions that I just explained to you in my earlier answer, and it

14 specifies the duties and obligations in conducting sanitization. The

15 order was that sanitization in the border belt, for example, should be

16 conducted exclusively by the units of the Yugoslav Army as well as in

17 their areas of deployment, that sanitization in the rest of the terrain

18 should be conducted by the powers of authority and the MUP in Kosovo.

19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the exhibits that relate

20 to regulating this are 5D346, it is an order from the 3rd Army command;

21 5D347; 5D352, orders by the Pristina Corps; 52633 [as interpreted]; and

22 5D179, also from the Pristina Corps command.

23 Q. Now, how did the Pristina Corps command gain an insight into the

24 orders given for sanitization and whether they were carried out?

25 A. The Pristina Corps formed a very professional team to exercise

Page 20120

1 control and give assistance to units in carrying out sanitization so that

2 the commission in question sent regular reports to the corps command about

3 how sanitization was going on in Kosovo and Metohija.

4 Q. Colonel, let us now take a look together at Exhibit 5D203, and may

5 we have your comments -- well, it's an order from the command of the

6 Pristina Corps dated the 20th of April, 1999. Is it an order which sets

7 out the people making up the commission -- so may we have comments on item

8 1 and 2?

9 A. As I said the corps commander issued an order by which he set up a

10 team to control the sanitization of the battle-field, and from the team

11 composition we can see that there was an investigating judge there; there

12 was a professional man, a pathologist; there was the crime technician

13 whose name is not mentioned here because they were the people who were on

14 duty; and there was a veterinary technician because of the livestock in

15 the battle-field, so they were in charge of implementing the work.

16 Now, item 2, paragraph 2, says exactly what I said earlier on,

17 that the units were in charge of sanitization in the border belt after

18 combat operations and the zone of combat operations in fact.

19 Q. Colonel, you said that within the frameworks of sanitization all

20 types of weapons and lethal objects and anything that presented a danger

21 to life in the environment was seen to. Now, the Pristina Corps, did it

22 take any measures to protect the environment?

23 A. Yes, not linked to sanitization orders were issued radioactive --

24 radioactivity was measured through Kosovo and Metohija, things like that,

25 regardless of who the facilities belonged to that were attacked by NATO's

Page 20121

1 air force in order to protect the units and also to protect the civilian

2 population.

3 Q. So were these measurements taken on civilian facilities as well?

4 A. Yes, an example being private houses, bridges, refugee camps, and

5 so on.

6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, P -- 5D402 is an exhibit

7 relating to that, the radiological measurements that were undertaken, and

8 in that sense I'd like us to look at the following exhibit, it's a Defence

9 Exhibit 5D1152, and this is a document from the command of the 52nd

10 artillery and rocket --

11 JUDGE BONOMY: [Previous translation continues]...

12 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer].

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Earlier you gave us a list of numbers to which you

14 were referring. It was 5D347, 5D352, orders by the Pristina Corps; and

15 then you referred to 5D633. What is that?

16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] P2633, P2633.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: P2633 is it?

18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Please continue.

20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21 Q. Colonel, let us take a look at 5D1152 now, please. It's a

22 document of the 52nd Artillery Rocket Brigade. Tell me if you know what

23 this is about; and if you do, please may we have your comments to the

24 document.

25 A. Yes, this document is familiar. It is a report of the commander

Page 20122

1 of the 52nd anti-aircraft defence artillery brigade of the 23rd of April,

2 1999, in which he informs that during regular sanitization and control of

3 the terrain his team for measuring radioactivity established that the --

4 in 10 tonnes of flour found in the basement of a house in Osek Hilja some

5 3 kilometres from Djakovica flour was found with higher of radiation with

6 between 1 and 3 milligray per hour and for that type of food stuff, 2

7 milligray per hour is the permissible limit. And that the food was

8 transported by the Mother Teresa humanitarian organization for feeding the

9 local population, which was predominantly Albanian population.

10 Measurement was taken for the 3 tonnes of flour which had already been

11 issued to bakeries for private bread production that bread baking should

12 be stopped and the flour was taken away and the necessary documents

13 compiled and the situation was, if I can say, sanitized or dealt with.

14 Q. Tell me who -- what ethnicity the baker was and what population

15 did they cater to.

16 A. It was a local baker, Albanian, and there were no Serbs in that

17 village, it was all local Albanian inhabitants.

18 Q. Colonel, you told us that the medical corps was something that was

19 dealt with by the rear. Now, do you know whether the medical battalion,

20 medical battalion of the Pristina Corps, whether it provided assistance to

21 the civilian population?

22 A. Yes. I know that it did so in a number of cases, I know of a case

23 where there was a surgical intervention, surgery performed on two

24 Albanians and assistance given for eight babies and treated a number of

25 other people, and I do know that. And I happen to know that because I as

Page 20123

1 the assistant, or rather, the chief of the organ for operative rear

2 affairs with the Supreme Command, I toured the battalion and Colonel Visic

3 reported to us about those cases.

4 Q. When did you tour the battalion?

5 A. We toured the battalion towards the end of May 1999 around

6 Podujevo.

7 Q. Your rear organs, did they provide other forms of assistance to

8 the civilian population as well; and if so, could you give us an example?

9 A. Yes. Pursuant to orders from the superior command, all possible

10 assistance was to be given to refugees, and I know the example of the 37th

11 Motorised Brigade, who in its area of responsibility, the Srbica area,

12 gave the population assistance in food, it provided flour to bake bread

13 for the refugees. I also know of another case when the 549th Brigade in

14 the village of Ljubizda near Prizren helped the civilian population by

15 handing out food to them and giving medical assistance as well to anybody

16 who was sick in the village.

17 Q. Colonel, in view of the fact that you led the rear organ, as an

18 organ of the rear do you know that the Army of Yugoslavia gave over some

19 of its resources to the Ministry of the Interior; and if so, which?

20 A. Yes, I do know about that. The Army of Yugoslavia -- I know that

21 the Army of Yugoslavia, or rather, the 3rd Army gave to the MUP organs 35

22 non-combat vehicles of the TAM type, T-A-M type. The order was received

23 from the General Staff and those vehicles were handed over from the army

24 units outside the Pristina Corps, because the Pristina Corps was in the

25 focus of our attention so that the Pristina Corps command was not informed

Page 20124

1 of that. Anyway, these vehicles we handed over, as provided for by the

2 rules and regulations. We took off the military licence plates, and then

3 the MUP would put their own on and use it for their own purposes.

4 Q. And do you know whether any combat resources were handed over?

5 A. The procedure was properly similar via the General Staff for the

6 combat systems and resources, but since that didn't come under the rear

7 organs, it was the administration of the branches and services in the Army

8 of Yugoslavia, so I don't know about that myself.

9 Q. The command of the 3rd Army during the war, did it compile a

10 schematic for rear security, and what did this chart refer to?

11 A. Yes. At the beginning of the war, I think it was the 4th of

12 April, when a new schematic was compiled for rear security and for all the

13 army units, and it was sent to the Pristina Corps, and I personally

14 compiled that chart, and it referred exclusively to the Pristina Corps

15 units.

16 Q. Did you include reinforcements for the Pristina Corps in that

17 chart?

18 A. Yes. The reinforcements were entered in and then the kind of

19 reinforcements and number of men, and this was updated regularly.

20 Q. In that chart of rear security, were structures outside the Army

21 of Yugoslavia included?

22 A. No, no structures outside the army were included in that chart.

23 Q. Are you aware that at one point in April an order arrived on the

24 resubordination of the MUP to the Army of Yugoslavia?

25 A. Yes.

Page 20125

1 Q. As you were the author of that chart, that chart of the rear

2 security, the numbers and the materiel resources that had to be delivered,

3 was it updated after the order on resubordination?

4 A. No, there was no need because as far as I know the MUP units were

5 not resubordinated to the army at all, and I would have to know that

6 precisely in order to obtain both combat and non-combat needs for those

7 units, for all resubordinated units that is.

8 Q. Would somebody else do that or would you have had to do that?

9 A. Well, it would have had to be me because I was the author or my

10 organs, but with my knowledge and under my supervision.

11 Q. Colonel, thank you for your testimony.

12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, those were all my

13 questions for this witness.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Bakrac.

15 Any other cross-examination by Defence counsel? None.

16 Mr. Stamp.

17 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Your Honours.

18 Cross-examination by Mr. Stamp:

19 Q. Good afternoon, Colonel. Where were you based during the war in

20 1999 from March to June 1999?

21 A. From the beginning of the war from March I was in the command of

22 the 3rd Army, but very often I spent time on the territory of the Pristina

23 Corps at the army forward command post or in the corps units.

24 Q. So where was the command of the 3rd Army?

25 A. The command of the 3rd Army was in Nis and the surrounding area.

Page 20126

1 Q. So -- and how often would you go to the territory of the Pristina

2 Corps?

3 A. On the average, once a week.

4 Q. Now, did you participate in any of the operations or activities to

5 clean up territory after combat or after army manoeuvres?

6 A. No. That was done by organs from my services, but not I

7 personally.

8 Q. You went and you conducted inspections at various army posts; is

9 that it?

10 A. Yes, and to provide assistance, inspections and providing

11 assistance.

12 Q. When -- or if the army located bodies of persons appearing to be

13 civilians that are unidentified, would the army be involved in the burial

14 of these bodies?

15 A. That would depend on the area where they were. If the bodies were

16 in the border belt, then the army investigating organs and the teams for

17 sanitization would participate in that, and then civilian authorities

18 would also be involved in that. But if it was outside the border belt,

19 all that would be done by the civilian authorities and the army would not

20 participate, it would simply inform the civilian authorities that the

21 bodies had been found.

22 Q. Did the army maintain a log of unidentified persons that it had

23 buried or records, not necessarily a log, but records; and if so, where

24 would those records be kept?

25 A. Yes, yes, that was done. I can give you an example. The village

Page 20127

1 of Slomine [phoen] in Glogovac municipality, for example, when a team, the

2 military investigating judge, pathologists, military police, forensic

3 technicians, and so on found a grave with 16 corpses. They processed

4 them, identified them, handed them over to the authorities for burial and

5 instituted criminal proceedings against unknown perpetrators before the

6 criminal court in Pristina and there are quite a few other examples of the

7 same kind.

8 Q. Where were the records in respect to these corpses kept?

9 A. They were in sometimes, or rather, in the former military courts

10 previously, but now in the military parts of courts, whatever it's called

11 now, but anyway the competent part of courts.

12 Q. We've heard evidence about some 800 corpses that General Pavkovic,

13 the 3rd Army commander, claimed -- I'm sorry, is there a problem?

14 A. Yes, I can hear.

15 Q. Very well. Yes.

16 Were you asked at any time to send out teams to do investigations

17 in respect to corpses numbering around 800 by the 3rd Army commander or by

18 the 3rd Army commander or organs of the 3rd Army?

19 A. Well, first, this number, the number 800, is not familiar to me,

20 it's not what I know. And there were requests by the commander of the

21 Pristina Corps and the army command teams were sent to carry out

22 sanitization, as far as I know, in seven locations, for a total number of

23 about 208 bodies that had been found. I know that from the reports of the

24 teams who did that.

25 Q. Very well. Did you know one Lakic Djorovic? He was an officer in

Page 20128

1 the Pristina Corps command, a prosecutor?

2 A. Personally, no. I didn't know him personally.

3 Q. Did you attend a meeting on the 24th of November, 1999, the topic

4 of which was dealing with vehicles or -- I withdraw the question.

5 Did you attend a meeting in respect to vehicles that had been

6 seized in Nis on the 24th of November, 1999?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Was there another Colonel Stamenkovic?

9 A. There is a Stamenkovic, but he's not a colonel, he's a

10 lieutenant-colonel in Nis in the traffic service.

11 Q. Okay. You said that there were -- there was no procurement

12 department in the Pristina Corps command. I would like you to look at a

13 document, and maybe you could assist us.

14 MR. STAMP: Could P2762 be placed on the -- on e-court.

15 And I would respectfully request the leave of the Court just to

16 show him one small part of that document. It was not listed, Defence is

17 not objecting, so I suppose I could proceed.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, proceed, please.

19 MR. STAMP: If we could look at that, please, and also look -- if

20 you could go to the last page of the English, please.

21 Q. This is a record of information provided to us by the Ministry of

22 Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Serbia on the 28th of November, 2006,

23 in which it says that: "A person other than Tijanic served as a technical

24 procurement reserve officer for the Pristina Corps command ..."

25 If you look at that, would you agree it's possible that even if

Page 20129

1 there was not a department labelled the technical procurement department,

2 there was an organ responsible for procurement in the Pristina Corps

3 command?

4 A. No. In the organs for the rear, in the rear services, there was

5 never a single person dealing with procurement. For example, in the

6 technical service the person who has to procure reserve parts is the one

7 who has to maintain vehicles, he's the one who gets reserve parts. The

8 person dealing with weapons obtains spare parts for weapons, but that was

9 not within the competence of the Pristina Corps; it was within the

10 competence of the army and the General Staff. The Pristina Corps could

11 only ask, it could not procure. This was done by the rear bases, the army

12 command, but it was not done by the Pristina Corps because the Pristina

13 Corps was not authorised by establishment to do that.

14 Q. Well, was there such an officer, such a position as technical

15 procurement reserve officer for the Pristina Corps command?

16 A. No. There was the chief of the technical service, the clerk for

17 weapons, the clerk for motor vehicles, the clerk for communications, and

18 another one, and those were all the organs in the Pristina Corps. Not a

19 single one was for procurement.

20 Q. Do you know what the one VTK log-book is?

21 A. That's the military territorial command, according to the

22 abbreviation given here, but I'm not aware where it was located.

23 Q. It says here also that there are numerous individuals listed in

24 the records with the last name Tijanic. Is it possible that there was a

25 reserve officer in the Pristina Corps command by that name that you do not

Page 20130

1 know?

2 A. It's possible there is someone I didn't know, but he was not in

3 the organs for the rear, and the organs for the rear were competent to

4 procure materiel for the corps. I should have known about him or at least

5 heard about him.

6 [Prosecution counsel confer]

7 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much, Your Honours. I have nothing

8 further for this witness.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bakrac.

10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, now we're dealing with

11 this document, just one question.

12 Re-examination by Mr. Bakrac:

13 Q. [Interpretation] Colonel, you were shown VTK. Is that a log-book

14 of the corps or of the Ministry of Defence?

15 A. Of the Ministry of Defence, not the corps.

16 Q. Thank you, Colonel.

17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I have no

18 further questions.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Bakrac.

20 Questioned by the Court:

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stamenkovic, you told us that in 1998 and 1999

22 you were chief of the organ for operations and rear affairs and the organ

23 for the rear of the command of the 3rd Army. And then when you retired in

24 2003, you were assistant commander of the 3rd Army for the rear. Which of

25 these is the most -- which of these is the most senior position?

Page 20131

1 A. The most senior position in the hierarchy is assistant commander

2 of the 3rd Army for the rear. In 1998 and 1999 I was the deputy assistant

3 commander for the rear, and then in 2001, I was appointed to that

4 position.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

6 [Trial Chamber confers]

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stamenkovic, that completes your evidence.

8 Thank you for coming here to give evidence. You can now leave the

9 courtroom.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 [The witness withdrew]

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bakrac, who is next?

13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, suddenly things have

14 speeded up. Our next witness is Dragisa Marinkovic.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] While we are waiting for the witness

17 to come in, Your Honours, we have changed the manner of testifying. This

18 witness will be 92 ter and a live witness.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: I've said before that I certainly find difficulty

20 with the concept of a 92 ter witness. What you have here is a witness,

21 part of whose evidence is going to be presented in writing in terms of

22 Rule 92 ter, but he's no more dead than any other witness who comes in and

23 speaks to us. So we're grateful to you for making use of the provisions

24 of Rule 92 ter to expedite the present of his evidence.

25 [The witness entered court]

Page 20132

1 JUDGE BONOMY: What is the e-court number for the statement,

2 Mr. Bakrac?

3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] 1379, Your Honour, 5D1379. I think

4 the English version has the same number.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Good evening, Mr. Marinkovic.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good evening, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Would you now make the solemn declaration to speak

8 the truth by reading aloud the document which will be shown to you.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

10 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Please be seated.

12 You will now be examined by Mr. Bakrac on behalf of Mr. Lazarevic.


14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 Examination by Mr. Bakrac:

16 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Marinkovic, good evening.

17 A. Good evening.

18 Q. For the purposes of the transcript, please introduce yourself,

19 tell us your first and last name, and your date, year, and place of birth.

20 A. My name is Dragisa Marinkovic. I was born on the 23rd of April,

21 1947, in the village of Vrbovo in Vladicin Han municipality in Serbia.

22 Q. Mr. Marinkovic, on the 6th of December of this year, did you give

23 to the Defence of General Lazarevic a statement?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you have an opportunity of perusing that statement in detail?

Page 20133

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did you sign the statement?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Does the statement express everything you told the Defence?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. If I were to ask you today those same questions, would your

7 answers be the same?

8 A. Yes, I would give the same answers.

9 Q. Would you please make pauses between my question and your answer,

10 although they're brief answers, but please remember to do that, pauses

11 between my question and your answer to facilitate the work of the

12 interpreters. Thank you.

13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to tender

14 into evidence the statement of this witness, 5D1379.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

16 MS. CARTER: No objection.

17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Colonel, since you gave the statement, we have it on e-court, all

19 of us can read it, it's accessible to one and all and we can interpret

20 what it says there. I'm just going to ask you a few additional questions.

21 So there's no need for us to repeat all the things that are contained in

22 the statement.

23 What I'm interested in is to deal with one more topic, and that is

24 the question of cooperation with the OSCE mission and the Pristina Corps

25 command. Now, Colonel, is it true and correct that after you -- the OSCE

Page 20134

1 mission arrived in Kosovo and Metohija you were in the team of the

2 Pristina Corps for liaising with the mission?

3 A. Yes, I was. I was in the Pristina Corps team and I was the deputy

4 leader of the team, Colonel Milan Kotur was deputy.

5 Q. Can you tell us briefly the ways in which this cooperation

6 evolved, that is to say between the Pristina Corps and the OSCE mission

7 and cooperation with the verifiers as well?

8 A. Yes, I can. That cooperation was based on an agreement which our

9 government had signed as well as on orders from the superior commands of

10 the 3rd Army and the General Staff of the army. And almost on a daily

11 basis meetings were held between the liaison team and the liaison officer

12 with the verifiers of the OSCE mission to discuss certain issues, first

13 and foremost troop movements, border issues, exercise and training,

14 verifying the terrorist attacks, touring Albanian villages, and all other

15 matters and issues that needed to be discussed at the request of one or at

16 the other side.

17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I've been told that

18 there's an error in the transcript, but we'll solve it more simply in

19 asking the question.

20 Q. Were you Milan Kotur's deputy or was he your deputy?

21 A. I was Milan Kotur's deputy. He was the leader of the team of the

22 Pristina Corps for liaising with the OSCE mission.

23 Q. Now, in all the units of the Pristina Corps was there a liaison

24 officer with the verifiers?

25 A. Yes, pursuant to an order of the Pristina Corps, who was

Page 20135

1 General Pavkovic at the time, according to the garrison principle there

2 were liaison officers appointed for liaising with the OSCE mission; and in

3 addition to that, all three border battalions had their own liaison

4 officers.

5 Q. Now, the verifiers of the OSCE mission, could they enter the

6 border belt?

7 A. Yes, they could, certainly. They could enter but respecting

8 certain provisions, that is to say that they had to announce their arrival

9 24 hours ahead of time, and this is a provision which always -- was always

10 in force for the border belt regime. So if they announced their arrival

11 on time, that would be fine. There are many other things that took place.

12 There were ambushes, because there was a special regime that applied to

13 the border belt to prevent anything untoward from happening. So the rules

14 had to be respected.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bakrac, is there a document about that?

16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm going to call up on

17 e-court a document, it is 5D1227, which speaks of -- well, before I do

18 that I'm going to ask a question and then we can look at the document

19 together.

20 Q. Were the verifiers allowed to visit Albanian villages in the

21 border belt?

22 A. Yes, certainly, they were given permission to do that if they

23 respected the rules and announced it in advance. There were no problems

24 in their visiting the border villages, or rather, villages in the border

25 belt.

Page 20136

1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Now may we have 5D1227, please.

2 Q. Colonel, this is a document from the command of the 57th Border

3 Battalion. Can you give us your comments on point 8.5, item 8.5.

4 A. Well, item 8.5 says that on the 14th of March, 1999, in the

5 Globocica sector, three members of the OSCE with a vehicle registration

6 number, et cetera, manned by the following individuals requested

7 permission to visit the villages of Gorance, Globocica, Kotlina,

8 Dragomance, and Straza, and they were granted permission to visit, so

9 there were no problems there.

10 Q. We see that it is a document from the border battalion, and these

11 are villages unless I'm mistaken which are located in the border belt; is

12 that right?

13 A. Yes, that's right.

14 Q. Now let's take a look at another exhibit, 5D1228, and it would

15 appear that in this document your name is mentioned. It's a document from

16 a border battalion once again I believe -- yes, the 57th Border Battalion

17 again, dated the 18th of March. Are you familiar with this document, or

18 rather, do you know what it's about?

19 A. Yes, yes. It -- I am familiar with this document, and it says

20 here that I gave permission for entry to an International Red Cross team

21 which was supposed to control and see how humanitarian aid was being

22 handed out and distributed. But there wasn't time to do that. I wanted

23 to be cooperative, I gave permission, although they didn't announce it

24 sufficiently in advance. They finished the job, but the commander of the

25 border battalion reacted to this. I was remiss because I wanted to show

Page 20137

1 goodwill to cooperate. Now, luckily nothing happened. It was a little

2 unpleasant, the vehicles were not announced, anything could have happened,

3 but luckily it didn't. I was told off, but the whole matter passed, and

4 I'm happy to have helped the people out not to let them wait another day.

5 Q. You said something could have happened. Why do you say that?

6 A. Because the border belt regime is a specific regime. There are

7 ambushes, things can happen, and there's certain rules that must be

8 respected in order to provide safety for everyone. So you must be given

9 enough time to prevent anything, you must meet the team, escort them,

10 provide for their security and safety, that kind of thing, which requires

11 advance notice.

12 Q. If vehicles have not been announced, can they move around the

13 border belt?

14 A. No, it would be dangerous. So the vehicles and people must be

15 identified. Nobody wants anything to happen, but if it is night-time or

16 if there is a fog, and you can't identify the vehicles it can be very

17 dangerous.

18 Q. We saw that the verifiers visited Albanian villages. The locals

19 in these Albanian villages, did they complain to the verifiers about the

20 conduct of the Army of Yugoslavia and its members?

21 A. Judging by the reports from the border battalions, and in talking

22 to the verifiers, they did not have any complaints about the behaviour and

23 conduct of the army and soldiers in that border belt, quite the contrary.

24 Those soldiers had lived there with those people for many years, and they

25 gained their trust and confidence, and this was spread and so there

Page 20138

1 wasn't -- there weren't any problems. And even the people from the OSCE

2 missions occupying higher posts, they gave recognition to the army for its

3 behaviour and conduct, they commended it.

4 Q. Did you attend those meetings?

5 A. Yes, I did, whenever I was able to I did attend those meetings,

6 and I know first-hand that that's how things stood. Those meetings were

7 mostly led by Colonel Kotur, but in his absence I would stand in and chair

8 the meetings. So whenever possible, I did attend the meetings.

9 Q. You mentioned Colonel Kotur. Was Colonel Kotur replaced from that

10 post or was there some reorganization that took place?

11 A. As far as I know, Colonel Kotur was not replaced. We were in a

12 specific situation and the team, both the verifiers -- well, mostly we

13 didn't know English, none of us knew English, and that was a handicap for

14 the team so that there was the need of having officers come in who knew

15 English; and so that happened I think sometime at the beginning of March,

16 thereabouts. So it wasn't any question of replacement or anything like

17 that. Colonel Kotur performed his duty in a very proper manner.

18 Q. Thank you, Colonel.

19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, perhaps this is a good

20 time for a break.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Have you still some more questions for the witness?

22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, two more documents and a few

23 more questions, 10 to 15 minutes perhaps.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

25 Mr. Marinkovic, we need to have a break at this stage; while we

Page 20139

1 have it, would you leave the courtroom, please, with the usher.

2 [The witness stands down]

3 JUDGE BONOMY: And we shall resume at 6.00.

4 --- Recess taken at 5.29 p.m.

5 --- On resuming at 6.00 p.m.

6 [The witness takes the stand]

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bakrac.

8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. Colonel, I just have a few more questions and two exhibits to look

10 at. Tell me this, please, General Lazarevic, when he became commander of

11 the Pristina Corps in January 1999, did he - and when I say "you," I mean

12 your team - did he make suggestions with respect to the cooperation with

13 the OSCE mission and the verifiers?

14 A. Yes, not only did he make suggestions but the he asked that we

15 inform him about our work. He was often in a situation whereby he was

16 able to follow our work, and sometime in the second half of February he

17 scheduled a preparation for the team with the verifiers, preparation

18 session; and he personally chaired that. So he felt the need personally

19 to indicate how the team could work in future, and he required a certain

20 amount of flexibility in the work too. The verifiers' team -- he asked

21 that the verifiers be allowed everything that they requested.

22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Now let's look at 5D651, please, on

23 e-court, and let's take a look at page 6, item 3 of that document.

24 Q. Item 3, second paragraph in item 3. Is that what you were

25 testifying about? It says on the 25th, in the Pristina Corps command a

Page 20140

1 meeting was held with the liaison officers of all the garrisons except the

2 Pec garrison and border battalions. The meeting was chaired by the

3 command of the Pristina Corps, et cetera?

4 A. Yes, I can see that that is what I was talking about, so it was

5 incorporated into the report.

6 Q. Did you take part or were personally present during those

7 preparations?

8 A. Yes, I remember I was there, and I remember two particular things

9 that the commander insisted upon. One was a spirit of cooperation, and he

10 asked at the meeting and before that, that care and attention be paid to

11 protecting the lives of the verifiers because they were, after all, in a

12 situation in which they had to go to danger zones and the state provided

13 guarantees, and it would be a very bad thing if anything untoward were to

14 happen.

15 Q. Colonel, let's now take a look at 5D1226. And while we're waiting

16 for that exhibit, please tell us whether after this meeting and the

17 suggestions made by the corps commander, whether cooperation with the

18 mission was promoted.

19 A. Yes, quite obviously it was promoted, that was evident, and it was

20 felt not only in our work but at the meetings also that took place with

21 the verifiers of the OSCE mission, where they expressed their satisfaction

22 at the fact that the cooperation was better with more participation and

23 understanding all-round.

24 Q. We see the composition of the team here. Look at paragraph 1,

25 read out the first sentence there, please.

Page 20141

1 A. It said: "The OSCE representatives expressed their satisfaction

2 with the cooperation and the changes in the approach to the mission by the

3 organs and units of the Army of Yugoslavia. They noted that the problem

4 of access to the border crossings had been resolved and that communication

5 had been established between the mission and the liaison officers, which

6 guaranteed cooperation. They requested a map with a 5-metre [as

7 interpreted] border zone marked in" --

8 Q. That will do. Thank you. So those were the results?

9 A. Yes, and those results set in very quickly when all the liaison

10 officers -- well, the order was received rapidly and everything evolved

11 according to the instructions given by the corps commander.

12 Q. Colonel, the OSCE mission, did it control armaments in the units?

13 A. Yes. The mission did control weapons, effect weapons controls

14 according to an agreement, and we hardly had any problems there at all,

15 that is to say weapons control was 100 per cent without any objections

16 made or any complaints. I remember some figures, some statistics.

17 Perhaps I won't be precise enough, but there were over 30 verifications of

18 weapons conducted by the mission, although I'm not quite sure of the

19 figures. I might have got them wrong.

20 Q. Thank you, Colonel.

21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, that completes my

22 additional questioning. What I meant to say when I said "additional," I

23 said questions outside the 92 ter statement. That's what I meant to say,

24 not as additional examination or re-examination. Thank you.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Bakrac.

Page 20142

1 It appears no Defence counsel wish to cross-examine.

2 You will now be cross-examined on behalf of the Prosecutor by

3 Ms. Carter.

4 Ms. Carter.

5 Cross-examination by Ms. Carter:

6 Q. Good afternoon, sir.

7 A. Good afternoon.

8 Q. As the Court indicated, my name is April Carter, and I'm here to

9 ask you questions on behalf of the Prosecution. I have a few topics that

10 I would like to discuss with you, the first of which is the criminal

11 activity that was alleged by the VJ. Specifically in a number of the

12 documents that were presented in your package, there are notations of MUP

13 committing crimes and the concerns that the VJ had against that. What I

14 would like to discuss is actually the reverse.

15 Sir, when war began, how often were the units being inspected by

16 the Pristina Corps?

17 A. At the beginning of the war, the units of the Pristina Corps took

18 up their wartime positions in the deployment areas and principally with

19 the aim of protecting themselves and the population. In that sense, right

20 at the beginning, the Pristina Corps command exercised control or

21 inspected, as you say here, the command officers carried out inspections

22 and reported back on the state of affairs, they reported back about the

23 situation they had found in the units. And this inspection did not only

24 take place when the war began. I remember very well an order from the

25 command of the Pristina Corps, General Lazarevic, which, or rather,

Page 20143

1 several orders that are easily remembered. He said, Not two days must go

2 by without the unit being inspected.

3 We had assistance there from the command of the 3rd Army. We were

4 helped out in that. They also conducted inspection and control.

5 Representatives of the General Staff, the General Staff team, and also the

6 forward command post of the 3rd Army was in Pristina and it was very

7 valuable, because faced with that kind of situation they behaved -- well,

8 they helped the corps command.

9 Q. Okay. So you say --

10 A. -- That was very good.

11 Q. Thank you. You said initially that the commanders were to inspect

12 at least every other day and then there was some additional oversight.

13 What I want to specifically focus on is either at the Pristina Corps level

14 or at the 3rd Army level. When and how often did either the Pristina

15 Corps or 3rd Army review or inspect the individual units?

16 A. The collegium of commanders that were held, they were held on a

17 daily basis, but not in its full composition because the corps command was

18 never able to be in one place, but the succus [phoen] was there and the

19 commander would call in others. But tasks were issued on the basis of a

20 report from the unit and controls and inspections of certain units were

21 decided upon, where the situation was urgent and most difficult and most

22 necessary. So all the units, there were units where there were no

23 terrorist activities in the Kosovsko Pomoravlje area, whereas the units in

24 Metohija hardest hit, and that's where inspection was necessary, not only

25 inspection but assistance as well. There were units who had come in from

Page 20144

1 other parts to a terrain they weren't well-acquainted with and they had --

2 well, it was wartime and they had to gain our trust.

3 Q. And the reason I'm asking is because we have seen a document in

4 this case, P1996, which purports to be minutes from the MUP on 7 May of

5 1997 -- excuse me, 1999, and in it, it indicates rampant criminal activity

6 by the VJ. And in fact, there was a meeting that was held between the top

7 VJ officials and agreement of measures were to be taken. Specifically I

8 want to know how the corps addressed the fact that reports were being sent

9 in saying that in Pristina the military is not taking sufficient measures

10 and most crimes are being perpetrated by the VJ, indicated problems with

11 your volunteers, so that the VJ is driving around in civilian vehicles,

12 the VJ refuses to stop at check-points and is threatening the MUP with

13 weapons, military investigative judges are refusing to do on-site

14 investigations. This is all being reported --

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Carter, could you just slow down a bit, please.

16 It's very difficult for the interpreters.

17 MS. CARTER: Certainly.

18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to object

19 because my colleague Ms. Carter says reports sent to the army. This is

20 the minutes of the meeting at the MUP staff, and this witness had nothing

21 to do -- has nothing to do with that. It's no report that was sent out.

22 It's just a meeting held at the MUP staff, MUP headquarters, where there

23 were no army representatives present.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Carter.

25 MS. CARTER: Respectfully --

Page 20145

1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour, might I

2 just be allowed to add this. When Lazarevic, the accused Lazarevic,

3 testified, he wasn't given permission to comment on these minutes

4 precisely because it had nothing to do with the army, and he wasn't

5 present there.

6 MS. CARTER: I would respectfully direct counsel's attention to

7 page 10 in the English, page 8 in the B/C/S, that indicates that there was

8 a meeting held with top VJ officials, agreeing on the measures to be

9 applied, but that they were not sufficient at the moment, so there appears

10 to be a communication between the VJ and the MUP and that's the basis of

11 my question.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Where is this on the page?

13 MS. CARTER: On page 10, the very first line: "A meeting was held

14 with VJ top officials at which it was agreed that measures" --

15 THE INTERPRETER: A little slower, please, thank you.

16 MS. CARTER: I do apologise.

17 "... But that they were not sufficient at the moment."

18 And in Vasiljevic's own statement it discuses meetings happening

19 thereafter.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Let's first establish from the witness what he

21 knows about reports from the MUP about VJ criminal activity.

22 MS. CARTER: Certainly.

23 Q. Sir, were you aware -- I listed out a number of accusations that

24 were being placed at the feet of the MUP in Pristina by the Pristina

25 secretariat. Did you receive any information about any of these

Page 20146

1 allegations?

2 A. No. I'm afraid that I won't be of much use to you because it was

3 my duty to mention that with regard to my functional duties as assistant

4 commander for information and morale -- well, that's a specific sphere of

5 activity, and never -- I never looked at a single document which related

6 to meetings either with the MUP or anything in connection to the MUP, nor

7 did I ever go to a single MUP unit. So my preoccupations were as follows:

8 Information; the corps compositions, internally and externally; informing

9 the public; monitoring and keeping morale at a high level in the units and

10 commands; then cultural issues and entertainment; and the nurturing of

11 traditions and tradition values, that was my remit. And pursuant to

12 requests from the commander I would tour our units if the commander

13 thought that I would be useful there so that I could provide him with the

14 proper information to see how far the unit had come --

15 JUDGE BONOMY: I think we understand what your job was.

16 Ms. Carter, please try to confine the witness to answering

17 questions that are going to advance our knowledge on this matter.

18 MS. CARTER: Certainly.

19 Q. And you indicated that you were dealing with the monitoring and

20 the morale. There was a number of documents that were submitted with your

21 package that indicate that you were concerned about the appearance of the

22 troops, about some of the criminal activity that was noted in those

23 documents. So was it part of your job to address what was happening in

24 the specific units?

25 A. First and foremost, information and morale. Now, pursuant to a

Page 20147

1 task issued by the commander --

2 JUDGE BONOMY: No, I'm sorry, I can't allow you to do this. I

3 want you to answer the question.


5 Q. Sir, can you just tell me that as part of your duties with regards

6 to the morale, the monitoring in the morale, was it part of your job to

7 address the problems within the individual VJ units?

8 A. With regard to what issues?

9 Q. In many of the documents that are attached to your 92 ter there's

10 concerns of lack of appearance, of them going off without permission, of

11 criminal activity, of any number of things. Was that part of your job, to

12 oversee and to deal with the inspections of those issues?

13 A. No. In the description of my work post and my functional

14 duties --

15 Q. [Previous translation continues]...

16 A. -- but pursuant to a task issued by the commander, yes, so in this

17 specific case, yes, and on a specific topic, yes.

18 Q. So when you were reviewing the units, while there are concerns

19 that are noted from external sources, that did not fall under your job

20 description; is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Thank you. We'll move to another topic, specifically the

23 inspections that do appear to be part of your concerns. A number of

24 documents that were provided with your package with regards to the 175th,

25 specifically that the soldiers were leaving sectors, they were firing for

Page 20148

1 no reason, and actually disciplinary actions had to be taken against that

2 unit. Is that correct?

3 A. As far as the 175th Motorised Brigade is concerned, sometime in

4 the second half of April, there was several complaints with respect to the

5 conduct of that unit; and the corps commander sent me with a team to

6 size-up the situation.

7 Q. And when you arrived at that unit, what did you see?

8 A. What every officer needs to see is order and discipline, whether

9 that exists, which also boosts morale and combat-readiness of the unit and

10 the appearance of the unit in general --

11 Q. Yes, sir, and what did you see?

12 A. I see. Well, what I saw is this, under the Mucibaba pass, I saw

13 part of the unit and there was one soldier that was bordering on the

14 positive, and part of the unit of volunteers who did not come up to

15 standard, did not fulfil the norm with respect to their appearance and

16 conduct.

17 Q. All right. That leads me to two questions. First, you used the

18 term "a unit of volunteers." Are you telling me that there -- that entire

19 unit was made up of volunteers?

20 A. It was a group which was not deployed at the time in the various

21 localities, formation-wise. Most of the volunteers in the wartime units

22 were placed in localities, whether the signalsman was in the signals

23 position, the artillery man in the artillery position, but with this group

24 that was not the case --

25 Q. Sir, if you can please just confine your answers to the questions

Page 20149

1 I asked. I want to know about this group, so you said it was a not a

2 group that was deployed at the time in various localities. I'm not

3 certain I understand that. The group that you came upon that was being

4 identified as the 175th. Are you saying that that entire group was made

5 up of volunteers?

6 A. Yes. It was a group of some 30-odd fighters.

7 Q. And when you say that they appeared -- they had bad appearance,

8 can you please describe for us what you were seeing. And the reason I'm

9 asking is many of our crime base witnesses have indicated that they saw

10 soldiers in varying uniforms, beards, looking very shabby, that type of

11 thing. And so I want to know from your perspective when you came across

12 the soldiers what did you see?

13 A. First of all, when an officer arrives, he looks to see whether it

14 was a well-ordered unit, whether there was order in it and security; and

15 at that point in time, this unit was not secured. And what characterizes

16 every unit if it is in defence, it must have security so that it cannot be

17 taken by surprise and killed, that's the first point --

18 Q. Sir --

19 JUDGE BONOMY: I wonder if you could help us by speaking in simple

20 language that lay people would understand about what you observed there

21 about the state of these people. Just tell us about it. In your

22 statement you already said that this led to the commander and the Chief of

23 Staff losing their jobs, based on your observations. Now, what did you

24 actually see?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I'm afraid that what was in

Page 20150

1 the statement was not properly understood. On the basis of my report and

2 the previous reports about that unit, what happened was that the corps

3 commander inspected it and the army commander inspected it so that they

4 could confirm whether reports that had been sent out about that unit were

5 correct; and this led to the fact that they replaced on the spot the

6 commander of that brigade, the Chief of Staff, and 15 officers.


8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So we just helped out.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: But please -- you understand what I'm asking. Just

10 tell us what the condition of these men was, what it was they were either

11 doing or what their appearance was like that led you to report back and

12 caused the corps commander and 3rd Army commander to carry out their own

13 inspection. And don't complicate it with technical army language; just

14 give us the facts.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Their appearance was not soldierly,

16 Your Honour, they didn't look like soldiers. They weren't --

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, what did they look like --

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- well-kept, neat.

19 A soldier has to be wearing prescribed uniforms from head to toe.

20 If they don't have the proper uniform, if they're shabby, if they have

21 bits and pieces of clothing, this will not meet the inspecting officer's

22 requirements. So if -- and if there's nobody in command, then you can

23 expect bad things to happen. So I could not do otherwise but to report

24 back about the appearance of this unit.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, if you refuse to answer our questions and make

Page 20151

1 a real effort to do so we shall just ignore all your evidence. You've

2 told me nothing in answer to that question. I want you to tell us what

3 they actually were doing that was wrong. I don't want you to tell me that

4 if they aren't wearing the right uniform they will not meet the inspecting

5 officer's requirements. I want to know what they were wearing and what

6 they were doing that was offensive.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I was there, they were not

8 doing anything, that's the thing, the unit --

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Let's move on then.

10 Ask another question, Ms. Carter.


12 Q. You said they weren't doing anything, but can you confirm to me,

13 when you saw them were they wearing bits of uniforms, were they looking

14 shabby, were they -- the issues that you had, is that what they looked

15 like? And that's a yes or no.

16 A. The basic thing is when you come into an area --

17 Q. Sir --

18 A. -- occupied by a unit --

19 Q. Sir, I just need to know yes or no: When you came across the

20 175th as a volunteer unit, were they in bits of random uniforms, were they

21 looking shabby, were they not meeting the protocol that was set out by the

22 VJ?

23 A. Precisely so, precisely so.

24 Q. All right. Thank you. And then there is a document 5D1359, which

25 indicates the 252nd was inspected as well. Did you take part in any sort

Page 20152

1 of inspection of the 252nd?

2 A. I don't recall that I mentioned the 252nd in my report. I

3 mentioned the 58th there.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Which paragraph is that, Ms. Carter?

5 MS. CARTER: Actually, Your Honour, it's -- the reason I'm asking

6 the question is that was part of the series of documents that was listed

7 by the Defence in regards to this witness, so I believe that he would have

8 had something to say on them otherwise they would not have been listed,

9 but it appears not.

10 Q. Now, you were discussing the 175th in the middle of April. There

11 is in another document at 5D563 that is now dated the 19th of May, almost

12 a full month after that, that's also indicating yet again, and this is

13 after the time that you've removed those commanding officers, at number 4

14 that they're still being shown to have unauthorised leave, sloppy

15 uniforms, theft continues --

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bakrac.

17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, for the sake of

18 precision, we did put the broader list in our notification, but when we

19 were taking the statement from this witness we only used documents he was

20 familiar with and we informed the Prosecution of this and said we would be

21 using an abbreviated set of documents. I believe that the Prosecution

22 received that notification from us.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, nothing's being made of it, Mr. Bakrac.

24 Ms. Carter's moved on to something else, so let's concentrate on the

25 evidence.

Page 20153


2 Q. Sir, on 19 May 1999, another inspection is done that's indicating

3 all of the concerns that were raised with the 175th back in April are

4 still present after the removal of those officers. What was done to the

5 unit after 19 May, given the fact that the circumstances had not changed,

6 if anything?

7 A. As regards the 19th of May, I can't remember whether I was there

8 at all. I don't think I was, so I cannot comment on the situation in that

9 unit. I was not able to be aware of every single inspection.

10 Q. When in -- when units were being inspected, if members of the

11 Pristina Corps came back and saw that the same issues were still present,

12 what was the normal operating procedure in order to rectify that situation

13 after the command has already been removed?

14 A. The procedure was as follows: After touring and visiting the

15 units, a report on the situation in the unit is submitted to the command,

16 and it's up to the commander to decide whether there would be another

17 inspection or whether certain measures should be taken.

18 Q. And in this case you can't speak to what happened to the 175th; is

19 that correct?

20 A. No. I don't know what happened next. I know up to the point in

21 time when the Chief of Staff and 15 officers were replaced.

22 Q. Thank you. Were you aware of the inspection of the 354th?

23 A. 354th Brigade, I visited it, but I don't know why because that was

24 a two-month period. It wasn't just one visit and one team. There may

25 have been more than one team, and I may have visited that unit once or

Page 20154

1 twice. If it's not a report I compiled, I cannot comment on it.

2 Q. Tell me if based on your experience there is a Supreme Command

3 Staff inspection report at 5D436 discussing the 354th. In it, it notes

4 that there is a lack of training amongst these soldiers; they're being

5 brought in but they're not being trained properly. Was that your

6 experience when you were reviewing the 354th?

7 A. I don't have that information that soldiers from that unit were

8 not well-dressed. What I saw met the appropriate criteria. I don't know

9 on what matters the unit was inspected.

10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I waited for the

11 witness to finish answering, although I didn't wait for the interpretation

12 to finish. But I think it would be fair to the witness when he's being

13 asked a question to be shown the document on which the question is based

14 so that we can all see what my learned friend is asking about and for the

15 witness to see it.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: In view of his answer, you might regret that.

17 But what do you want to do?

18 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, I want to show the witness 5D436 at page

19 3 in the English and page 3 in the B/C/S noting paragraph 1 -- or number 1

20 in subsection 3.

21 Q. I would direct you to number 1 that indicates: "After the

22 mobilisation a big part of the brigade did not undergo the necessary

23 training and consolidation before being engaged."

24 Are you telling me that as an officer inspecting this unit, you

25 did not notice this but yet the Supreme Command Staff did?

Page 20155

1 A. I don't have the -- I didn't hear the interpretation.

2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there was no

3 interpretation.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you ask that question again, please,

5 Ms. Carter.

6 MS. CARTER: Certainly.

7 Q. I would direct you to number 1 that indicates: "After the

8 mobilisation, a big part of the brigade did not undergo the necessary

9 training and consolidation before being engaged."

10 Are you telling me that as an officer inspecting this unit, you

11 did not notice this but yet the Supreme Command Staff did?

12 A. The assumption is that military conscripts or men liable for

13 military service have done their military service, that they have gone

14 through training, and on arrival in the units - and the corps commander

15 insisted on this - that they should also be trained in war, perhaps at

16 that point in time --

17 Q. Clearly based on the Supreme Command Staff they didn't believe

18 that that occurred. But now let's move on to subsection 5, it's the same

19 page for you -- no, I'm sorry, it's page 4 in the English, page 3 in the

20 B/C/S at paragraph 5. There it indicates: "There are many bearded

21 soldiers and officers in scruffy clothes and there is alcohol consumption.

22 This is particularly characteristic of the 3rd."

23 Will you please tell me, was that your experience with the 354th?

24 A. No, but I know about orders from the corps commander concerning

25 the drinking of alcohol. He banned it --

Page 20156

1 Q. Thank you, sir --

2 A. -- and they insisted on order --

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Carter, why are you asking that sort of

4 question? You get an answer: Yes, it doesn't add anything; you get the

5 answer: No --

6 MS. CARTER: Respectfully, Your Honour--

7 JUDGE BONOMY: -- it doesn't add anything.

8 MS. CARTER: Respectfully, Your Honour, as we are dealing with a

9 JCE 3 case, one of the concerns is the unit is acting up. If there are

10 problems or issues within the unit, we have to determine whether

11 reasonable efforts were made to rectify that situation. In this case it

12 appears that the people who were actually inspecting these units and

13 addressing these issues either were turning a blind eye to it and doing

14 nothing, which is a problem; or they are seeing exactly what is happening

15 and are misreporting up the chain. But in this case we see a superior

16 unit is quite aware of it, but the people who can actually remove these

17 people from position are doing nothing; so that's why I'm asking the

18 questions.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: But he's not in a position to remove them.

20 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, the inspection teams, based on the

21 inspection team's reports would go back to the Pristina Corps level, and

22 that is the level at which they could actually be removed.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, but -- so let's assume that this witness does

24 know -- or this is his experience, what difference does that make?

25 MS. CARTER: The difference would be what did they do about it.

Page 20157

1 What did the Pristina Corps do if they saw all of this, what remedial

2 measures did they take. In the 175th, they indicated they removed all

3 commanders, but yet when coming back a month later did nothing when the

4 same issues were taking place. In the 354th it appears we have a similar

5 circumstance --

6 JUDGE BONOMY: I understand that, but how does this witness assist

7 you either way? It's the question I'm not following the purpose of.

8 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, this -- as he was a member of the

9 inspection teams, and he would be the one advising superior command, his

10 impressions of the unit or his lack of reporting on it would become

11 relevant. However, if the Court is not assisted I will --

12 JUDGE BONOMY: How would it add, though, if we've got here a clear

13 statement of indiscipline, how does whether he agrees with it or disagrees

14 with it improve the case?

15 MS. CARTER: Because the follow-up question would be at the end of

16 what was done, if anything, to the 354th.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. I understand that, but --

18 MS. CARTER: So then I can jump through that to the last question

19 then.

20 Q. Sir, it has been indicated by Supreme Command Staff that there are

21 a number of issues between training, the lack of appearance, that briefing

22 is not being done -- you indicated before that one of the things that

23 needs to happen is that there has to be some sort of every-other-day

24 inspection by the commander that appears not to be done. What, if

25 anything, did the Pristina Corps do to rectify this problem?

Page 20158

1 A. I know that the corps commander constantly insisted, ordered,

2 called upon the brigade commanders and the commanders of the independent

3 battalions --

4 Q. Sir --

5 A. -- to take all these measures --

6 Q. I don't want to speak in hypotheticals. What I want to know is

7 clearly a superior command has indicated major problems with the 354th. I

8 want to know at the Pristina Corps level what was done in order to rectify

9 these problems, if anything?

10 A. Certain command orders followed to solve these problems --

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. -- I'm sorry --

12 MS. CARTER: Marinkovic --

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Marinkovic, orders don't solve any problems, it's

14 action. Ms. Carter's asking you what was actually done. We know what the

15 orders say.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know what was

17 specifically done in this unit.


19 Q. We'll move on to treatment of civilians. Do you have indication

20 that -- or can you speak on the topic about how the civilian population

21 was treated by the VJ units that were in the field?

22 A. The civilians were treated in the spirit of orders by the

23 commander and respect for international humanitarian law --

24 Q. Excuse me, any answer you're going to give is going to come back

25 to you submitted orders; is that correct?

Page 20159

1 A. I, no, nor do I have the right to issue orders nor was it my

2 command duty.

3 Q. The question becomes: Is your knowledge of what occurred in order

4 to rectify any problems, is your knowledge going to be the Pristina Corps

5 issued orders to follow humanitarian law and to do as they were told to

6 do? Is that going to be the entirety of your answer?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. All right.

9 A. Yes. Starting from 1998 all the way to the end of the war, orders

10 were constantly issued some special --

11 Q. Thank you, sir. Thank you, sir.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Do you have any experience what was done to

13 implement these orders?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Every order binds the commander to

15 carry it out decisively to implement it. There is a deadline in every

16 order and the commander has to be notified, he has to report back to the

17 corps commander.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: I think I ask quite simple questions, but obviously

19 there is some sort of communication problem with you -- between you and

20 me. My question was whether you have any actual experience of what was

21 actually done to implement these orders, yes or no; and then depending on

22 that answer, I'll ask another question.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Give us an example.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, for example, an order issued

Page 20160

1 by the corps commander where he separates out a special element of

2 combat-readiness, he thereby weakened the unit, but its duty was to look

3 after the civilian population in its area. You can't see that anywhere

4 else. The principle of humaneness is put above the principle of military

5 efficiency. That's a precedent in the history of warfare.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm afraid I give up, Ms. Carter; you try.

7 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, I don't believe on this topic I'll get

8 anything better.

9 Q. You also testified today at page 68, line 8, that you were

10 indicating that the OSCE mission, when they were reviewing villagers, that

11 they always indicated that the civilian population was being treated quite

12 well. I'd like to direct your attention to document 5D650 at page 2 in

13 the English and page 3 in the B/C/S. And I would hold out to you that the

14 OSCE mission when looking at minimum the village of Obrandza found that

15 the villagers were moving out of that village for fear of VJ patrols.

16 A. It's necessary to establish fear of the patrol and presence. If

17 the army has to be present there and it's not doing anything, that's

18 something quite different. Inhumane actions are one thing and presence is

19 another thing; fear is yet a third thing, fear of bombing, fear of ground

20 invasions --

21 Q. Thank you, sir, that answers the question. Now, moving on to your

22 involvement with the OSCE in the same document, looking at page 4 in the

23 English, you were discussing how well the OSCE mission was treated, and

24 your fall-back answer appears to be that orders were given from above,

25 thus they were carried out in the field. You said that Lazarevic had met

Page 20161

1 with a number of people and that he said that cooperation was tantamount

2 with the OSCE mission. Are you aware of those types of orders or those

3 directives being sent down the chain of command?

4 A. The team members and the liaison officers from the garrison,

5 except for the Pec garrison, and the battalion commanders, they were all

6 there at the preparation carried out by the corps commander, and these

7 liaison officers informed their own commanders --

8 Q. Thank you, sir --

9 A. -- whenever they had an opportunity, they received the verifiers.

10 Q. All right. And actually I did misspeak in regards to the page

11 number, it's page 3 in the English and page 4 in the B/C/S. In the spirit

12 of this cooperation they were told apparently the members of the OSCE were

13 trying to observe the training of soldiers. Following a warning by

14 patrol, the VJ members bordered their vehicle -- I'm sorry, first off the

15 549th trained their weapons on them and warned them away.

16 Do you believe that is in the spirit of cooperation; and if not,

17 what was done about it?

18 A. I don't see here what paragraph. Just a moment. Can you assist

19 me, please?

20 Q. It will begin saying: "Between 1130 and 1140 hours ..."

21 It appears to be page --

22 A. Yes, I found it. I found it.

23 Q. And actually part of this is based on this document and the other

24 part is on General -- excuse me, Colonel Delic's testimony, in which he

25 indicated how they turn away OSCE members was by training a gun on them

Page 20162

1 and forcing them to leave. Do you believe that this type of activity is

2 in the spirit of General Lazarevic's orders; and if not, what was done?

3 A. I don't know where and in what place, but am duty-bound to say

4 that every unit, every facility or feature was secured with guards. If no

5 liaison officer was present, we had examples which I didn't put forward,

6 where the verifiers wanted to enter by force. They even --

7 Q. Sir --

8 A. -- lifted up the check-point barrier where the guards were

9 standing.

10 Q. You've been directed to a specific paragraph that indicates that

11 the observers were merely standing on the Prizren-Suva Reka road just

12 trying to observe these activities, yet they were turned away. How is

13 that in the spirit of Lazarevic's orders; and if it's not, what was done?

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Visnjic.

15 Just one moment, please.

16 Mr. Visnjic.

17 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, here we seem to have a

18 combination of two documents, two parts. One part is what my learned

19 friend said, that they were standing on the road, and the next part is

20 where weapons were trained on them. I don't see in this document where

21 weapons were trained on them, so could she give me a reference for that,

22 please.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: She has done, the evidence of General Delic or

24 Colonel Delic as he was then, line 18 on page 92.

25 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Is -- that relates to that incident,

Page 20163

1 that's why I'm asking for the reference.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: That's what she says. Is that wrong?

3 MS. CARTER: It appears -- in the following document, again, it's

4 referring to the 549th and using gunpoints in order to search vehicles, so

5 it appears that a standard operating procedure for the 549th and when

6 Delic was asked --

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Carter, please don't you also complicate this

8 any further. Just -- if your question has a proper foundation, then you

9 should ask it. Mr. Visnjic is questioning whether the two are the same

10 incident. Are you telling us for sure that these are the same, what Delic

11 said related to what happened between 1130 and 1140 in this report?

12 MS. CARTER: I cannot say that; it just appears to be standard

13 operating procedure based on his testimony and based on the document I

14 will show next, 5D651, thus I felt that I had a good basis for the

15 question. If the Court does not believe so, then I will redact that and

16 merely ask --

17 Q. Sir, if the --

18 JUDGE BONOMY: No, no, just hold on.

19 Mr. Visnjic, the question that's being asked is if the OSCE

20 monitors are on the road, is it acceptable practice for them to be chased

21 away from observing training exercises by the muzzle of a gun. Nothing

22 wrong with that question --

23 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the question is not

24 improper but the reference is improper because I'm sure that Delic didn't

25 say or couldn't have said that they were driven off with weapons from the

Page 20164

1 Prizren-Suva Reka road. That referred only to the border belt, so this

2 other detail that my learned friend mentioned does not fit into this

3 proposition. And secondly, not to go into this any further why this

4 particular incident took place, but that's quite a different story, a

5 separate story.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, please formulate your question, Ms. Carter,

7 on the basis of observations from the road and having a gun pointed at

8 them. It's hypothetical, it appears to me at the moment, and will only be

9 of any real significance if there's evidence to support the idea that that

10 was the standard operating practice, but you should ask the witness the

11 question on that basis, and that question will be whether that behaviour

12 is consistent with General Lazarevic's order.


14 Q. Sir, is it consistent with General Lazarevic's order to chase away

15 members of the OSCE from the Suva Reka-Prizren road by gunpoint?

16 A. If we're talking about this time between 1130 and 1140 hours --

17 JUDGE BONOMY: No, we're not, we're just talking in general terms.

18 If something of that nature happened, if OSCE monitors were on a road

19 observing training, would it be consistent with General Lazarevic's order

20 about how to conduct themselves?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, that wasn't Lazarevic's

22 order -- General Lazarevic's order. There's a warning of the patrol here,

23 because if they're not announced, members of the OSCE mission cannot

24 gather at the exercise because there are shots coming from the terrorists

25 all over the place. And if one of them was hit we would have been accused

Page 20165

1 and we were only exercising.

2 MS. CARTER: Did the terrorists --

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] orders --

4 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat what he said, it was

5 unclear.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: It's clear enough to me. His answer is: Yes, this

7 would be consistent with the -- General Lazarevic's order. If Mr. Bakrac

8 wants to re-examine on it, he can, he can in due course.

9 Continued, Ms. Carter and move on to something else.


11 Q. I will to 5D651, and page 7 in the English and page 8 in the B/C/S

12 and it's indicating issues with the VJ in the participation with the OSCE.

13 On this page there are reports that the commander of the 125th mixed

14 company rammed an OSCE vehicle with an APC. Is that consistent with

15 General Lazarevic's order; and if not, what has been done, as this has

16 clearly been noted to the Pristina Corps?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Are you aware of any disciplinary measures against the 125th mixed

19 company commander in regards to this incident?

20 A. I don't know about the measures that were taken. I wasn't aware

21 of that, but the superior commander is always --

22 Q. Thank you, sir.

23 A. -- asked to take measures and this commander did not act in the

24 proper manner.

25 Q. Moving on. Are you aware of any disciplinary measures that

Page 20166

1 occurred from the 243rd commander when he turned a rifle on the OSCE and

2 threatened to shoot after an audience was requested by him?

3 A. No, I'm not aware of any measures, nor did it come within the

4 remit of my work that I monitor the taking of measures, just to report

5 that something happened and that measures be taken, and that's down to the

6 lower levels of command.

7 Q. Thank you, and going back --

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Carter --

9 MS. CARTER: Yes --

10 JUDGE BONOMY: -- You'll need to find a suitable place to

11 interrupt if you're intending to proceed further.

12 MS. CARTER: Certainly. I can very quickly end and just ask one

13 more question.

14 Q. Sir, there's also indication that the 549th while training with

15 the MUP stopped a verifier's vehicle, and forced them to get out at gun

16 point and search the vehicle. There was also a 549th's member ordering

17 the OSCE mission office members to leave their own office, as well as the

18 52nd stopping the OSCE mission patrol and asking them to hand over their

19 topographic math and notebooks; are any of these activities consistent

20 with General Lazarevic's orders; and if not, are you aware of any

21 disciplinary measures that were taken against these units?

22 A. No, I'm not aware of any of that. I'm not aware of any measures

23 taken.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, what's your answer to the question whether

25 the conduct described is consistent with General Lazarevic --

Page 20167

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no, not consistent, no.

2 MS. CARTER: And that would be an appropriate time to break, Your

3 Honour, and actually I believe that will finish my examination. The other

4 topic I don't think he can speak on.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

6 Do you have much re-examination, Mr. Bakrac?

7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, I do not have much

8 re-examination. Just one question and one exhibit on our screens, please;

9 but I'd like to ask Your Honour for you to look at the transcript, page

10 95, line 15 and 16. I think that the answer was contrary to what was --

11 to what you said with all due respect, the answer given by the witness was

12 different, whether such conduct was in keeping with orders. You said that

13 the witness said yes, but I think -- well, do you want me to re-examine on

14 that point?

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, if you -- what the witness said was this was

16 a situation where they came unannounced and they had to be warned in their

17 own interests, in the interests of their own safety, and therefore it was

18 consistent with the order. Is that not the answer?

19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] At the beginning it says: No, that

20 was not in conformity with Lazarevic's order. Then he goes on to say --

21 JUDGE BONOMY: No, he says that wasn't his order, and then he goes

22 on to explain -- but, yes, please ask the question to clarify it if you

23 don't accept that.

24 Re-examination by Mr. Bakrac:

25 Q. [Interpretation] This kind of conduct, was it in keeping with

Page 20168

1 Lazarevic's, General Lazarevic's orders -- order?

2 A. Not at any point of time were we allowed to risk the verifiers'

3 lives whenever they were endangered. If a training was going on and

4 somebody's observing it from nearby, there could be an accident; and in

5 that case, a rifle wasn't used, it was a caution that was issued and the

6 people left, if that's what you mean.

7 Q. That's what I wanted to say. We're going to differentiate between

8 training a rifle on a verifier and a caution. Is that in keeping with --

9 A. No, training a rifle, no, it isn't.

10 Q. Thank you.


12 Now 5D563, may we look at it quickly and I'll wind up, Your

13 Honour, but I think that my colleague Ms. Carter wrongly interpreted this.

14 It's a combat report of the 175th Motorised Brigade, 5D563 is the number

15 of the exhibit.

16 Q. Ms. Carter showed you this and she asked you what measures were

17 taken because from the combat report it is obvious that the situation was

18 the same. Now, I'd like to ask you to take a look at item 4, the state of

19 morale, and read out the second paragraph.

20 A. "Morale in general good order and discipline have improved. There

21 are still isolated incidents of unauthorised leave from the units, attempt

22 at theft, sloppy uniforms, et cetera, which are detrimental to the unit's

23 image."

24 Q. Thank you, Colonel.

25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, that completes my

Page 20169

1 examination.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Bakrac.

3 Mr. Marinkovic, that completes your evidence. Thank you for

4 coming to give evidence. You're now free to leave us.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

6 [The witness withdrew]

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Two matters I mention before we complete. First of

8 all, that Mr. Milutinovic was absent throughout today's hearing; and

9 secondly, that on Friday we will sit only in the morning, so we will sit

10 in the usual morning schedule until 1.45.

11 Now adjourn until tomorrow at 2.15.

12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.07 p.m.,

13 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 13th day of

14 December, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.