Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 20756

1 Tuesday, 22 January 2008

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.16 p.m.

5 [The witness entered court]


7 [Witness answered through interpreter]

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Good afternoon, Mr. Kotur.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: The cross-examination by Mr. Hannis will now

11 continue. Mr. Hannis.

12 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Cross-examination by Mr. Hannis: [Continued]

14 Q. Good afternoon, Colonel. I wanted to resume. I got side-tracked

15 but I wanted to finish talking about the Reka action, and I'd like to show

16 you Exhibit P2026. And, Colonel, I'll tell you this is from the 125th

17 Motorised Brigade. It's a regular combat report. It's dated the 29th of

18 April. And if you could go to item number 2 for me, and in the second

19 paragraph, the second sentence in my English translation says: "Operation

20 or action Reka was completed on 28 April." Do you find that?

21 A. No. You mean item 2?

22 Q. Yes, under item number 2 and then it's the second paragraph.

23 Could you read for us what follows there after the reference to completion

24 of the Reka action?

25 A. The remaining units of the brigade continue with fortifying

Page 20757

1 setting up obstacles, making mock combat positions, clearing the roads and

2 the front line. On 28th of April, Operation Reka was completed. The 1st

3 Company of the 1st Battalion and the volunteer company were those of our

4 units that were involved. A volunteer was slightly wounded. The

5 operation was both successful and completed."

6 Q. Okay.

7 A. "During --"

8 Q. When we spoke yesterday, I believe you had indicated to us that

9 your recollection was that the units that were participating in the --

10 assisting the MUP in mopping up that an area were elements of the 63rd

11 Parachute Brigade and 52nd Military Police Battalion. Do you recall

12 telling us that?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Were -- and we have had evidence in this case, at least about the

15 63rd Parachute Brigade. So does this refresh your memory as to additional

16 elements of the VJ that were engaged in the Reka action?

17 A. What I see here are units of the 125th Motorised Brigade. These

18 units were doing no more than protecting their own combat disposition and

19 their own elements of combat disposition. As far as I know, they were

20 sometime between Smonica to the south towards Junik and somewhere around

21 Dobros, but as far as I know, these units were certainly not involved in

22 searching and clearing the terrain.

23 Q. You will see in the next paragraph the statement that says: "The

24 commander and the chief of staff of the Pristina Corps were in the brigade

25 from 0900 to 1200 hours today," which was the 29th of April.

Page 20758

1 A. I'm having trouble hearing the interpretation. I'm straining to

2 actually listen to it. Now it's a little better.

3 Q. Should I repeat the question for you then?

4 A. Please, if you can.

5 Q. You see the next paragraph says that: "The commander and the

6 chief of staff of the Pristina Corps were in the brigade from 0900 to 1200

7 hours today." Do you see that?

8 A. That is the last paragraph before item 3. That's what you mean.

9 The brigade command team. Is that the one you're referring to or --

10 Q. Yes. My translation says "The commander and the chief of staff."

11 And that would be General Lazarevic; correct?

12 A. Can you just tell me the paragraph? I'm looking for it and I

13 can't seem to find it.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: It may be --

15 THE WITNESS: Oh, that one.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: -- The one you were reading. Could you just go

17 one sentence earlier and read that?

18 THE WITNESS: Yes. [Interpretation] It's been indicated to me. I

19 see it now. From 0900 to 1200 hours today the commander and chief of

20 staff of the Pristina Corps were in the brigade.


22 Q. And do you recall General Lazarevic during the 125th on the 29th

23 of April?

24 A. I heard something like that but I wasn't there. And I'm not privy

25 to any details.

Page 20759

1 Q. Where were you, Colonel, on the 29th of April?

2 A. I was in the units of the 125th Motorised Brigade. We were either

3 in the 3rd Battalion, the 2nd, or one of the other units. That's where we

4 were spending all of our time. You have reports to show that. There were

5 reports sent by the forward command post command to the Pristina Corps

6 command. They say that we were providing assistance each day to the 125th

7 Motorised Brigade with the objective of consolidating our defence lines.

8 This was an ongoing task, all the way up until the brigade withdrew --

9 Q. Yes.

10 A. -- from Kosovo and Metohija altogether. You will find that in all

11 of the daily reports.

12 Q. Yes but you understand, Colonel, that doesn't give me enough

13 detail to know whether or not the fact that you're with the 125th Brigade

14 on the 29th of April and General Lazarevic is shown as being in the 125th

15 Brigade on the 29th. I don't know whether you two saw each other on that

16 day. Can you tell me specifically where you were on the 29th of April?

17 A. We certainly didn't see each other. I don't remember that. I

18 don't remember us meeting.

19 Q. Okay. You told us yesterday at page 40, line 1, you were asked by

20 Mr. Bakrac whether General Lazarevic was in Djakovica on the 27th or 28th

21 of April, and your answer was, no, he was not in Djakovica. You were then

22 asked had he been in Djakovica would you have known, and your answer

23 was, "Yes, I would have known that, certainly." How was it you would have

24 known where General Lazarevic was on the 27th and 28th of April?

25 A. I said I would have known whether General Lazarevic had been in

Page 20760

1 Djakovica or not on the 27th and 28th. I meant the forward command post,

2 whether he was there, not in the 125th or 549th or 252nd Armoured Brigade.

3 That's not what I had in mind. There were a great many units across

4 Kosovo-Metohija and near Djakovica, but when I said I would have known

5 that he'd been in Djakovica, I meant the forward command post, which is

6 where we were staying at the time, because the operations officer would

7 have written that down. We would have certainly know when a commander was

8 around or something like that. If I had not been there at the time

9 perhaps I would have been notified in the course of the day as for any

10 other units, I really don't know: When he was there, where he was, and

11 whether he was anywhere. Maybe on the 29th he was in the 125th, but I

12 certainly didn't meet him there.

13 Q. I think you probably have to slow down a bit again.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: I was going to say, Mr. Hannis, before we get into

15 the warnings from the interpreters, Mr. Kotur, please remember what

16 happened yesterday and do your best to slow down.

17 Mr. Hannis.

18 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Judge.

19 Q. And is it correct, Colonel, that the -- the war diary of the

20 forward command post and/or the war diary of the Pristina Corps command in

21 April 1999 would reflect where the commander was on any particular day?

22 Is that information that normally would have been entered into the war

23 diary?

24 A. I think that sort of information should have been entered into the

25 war log if the commander was away from the command post during the day.

Page 20761

1 That's what I mean.

2 Q. Okay. Have you seen the -- the war diary or the war log for the

3 forward command post of the Pristina Corps or for the Pristina Corps

4 command since the war?

5 A. Let me just tell you one thing. The forward command post is not

6 the one keeping the war log. They will are under no obligation to keep a

7 war log. The war log is only keep at the Pristina Corps command. At its

8 forward command post this document is just not kept. After the war I

9 didn't see the war log of the Pristina Corps command.

10 Q. Have you ever heard anything about where it went, because we have

11 not been able to find it.

12 A. After a year I left the Pristina Corps and I left for the Novi Sad

13 Corps, and I know nothing about their documents, about the situation in

14 the Pristina Corps or anything else for that matter.

15 Q. Okay. Could we look at a map now, Exhibit P615, at page 22 in

16 e-court.

17 Colonel, you mentioned a location called Osek Hilja. I hope I'm

18 pronouncing that approximately right.

19 And if we could enlarge the upper left two quadrants. I hope that

20 will show what I want the colonel to look at. Maybe one more time. Thank

21 you.

22 Colonel, can you see that map on your monitor?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And I see on the road leading sort of north, north-west out of

25 Djakovica what appears to be that -- that name or that village,

Page 20762

1 Osek Hilja. Is that the one you were telling us about yesterday?

2 A. Yes, that's the one.

3 Q. And that looks like that's just a kilometre or so outside of

4 Djakovica; is that right?

5 A. Just a minute, please. I see Osek Pasa but I don't see

6 Osek Hilja. A while ago when I said that I saw it, I was wrong. It says

7 Osek Pasa, and Osek Hilja, I can't see it.

8 Q. Would you move directly to the left of Osek Pasa and tell us if

9 you don't see Osek Hilja there?

10 A. I do now. Yes, I apologise.

11 Q. Unfortunately this is right on the page dividing line in our map,

12 but do you recall approximately what distance is that from Djakovica? It

13 looks very -- very near.

14 A. I don't know. Probably over a kilometre. I don't know what the

15 scale is.

16 Q. All right. If we could go to page 21 of this exhibit. Colonel,

17 I'm going to show you the course -- the next page adjacent to this one

18 where Osek Hilja is also shown, but you can't see Djakovica on this other

19 page.

20 MR. HANNIS: And if we could zoom in on the upper right two

21 quadrants. Yes. And scroll down just a little bit for me, please. Thank

22 you.

23 Q. Colonel, are you able to see Osek Hilja on this map? It's near

24 the right edge, about two-thirds of the way down. Do you find it?

25 A. Yes.

Page 20763

1 Q. I think you told us yesterday that from Osek Hilja you could see

2 part of the -- the Reka area or the -- the Caragoj Valley; is that

3 correct?

4 A. When I said that from Osek Hilja you could see part of the Reka

5 area, I didn't mean from the village itself, the village of Osek Hilja. I

6 meant the Cabrat ridge above the village itself. If you go there, you can

7 actually see it. From the village itself, you can see nothing at all.

8 There's a road there you take through Osek Hilja and it leads up

9 to the Cabrat ridge.

10 Q. And when you left Osek Hilja on that day where did you go?

11 A. We went up to the Cabrat ridge above Osek Hilja.

12 Q. You were asked in connection with around this time of the 27th and

13 28th of April about what Nike Peraj had said. Mr. Peraj had said that

14 General Lazarevic spent most of his time in Djakovica, and at page 44,

15 line 5, you said -- this is what it says in the transcript, and maybe you

16 can help -- help me with this. You're quoting as saying:

17 "General Lazarevic was in Djakovica on the 10th or -- or, rather,

18 he -- when he was in the 122nd Motorised Brigade because of Kosare, I

19 think he maybe just passed through once or twice but that's all. He did

20 not, definitely did not, spend most of his time in Djakovica."

21 Now, I think -- I think there's an error there. It wouldn't be

22 the 122nd Motorised Brigade. You would have been referring to the 125th;

23 right?

24 A. There is no 122nd Brigade.

25 Q. And so you must have been referring to the 125th; correct?

Page 20764

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And what about this part where it says: "Lazarevic was in

3 Djakovica on the 10th"? Do you know what you're referring to there?

4 You're talking about the 10th of April or 10th of May, 10th of March?

5 A. If you looked at my statement, if you looked through my statement

6 all the way to the end, I believe that I said that on the 10th of April

7 I'd been called to the command post of the Pristina Corps through the

8 command of the 243rd Mechanised Brigade. I didn't know the reason for

9 that until I got to the command post. When I came there, I found

10 General Pavkovic, who told me that General Lazarevic was in Djakovica, or

11 more precisely at Kosare because of the fall of Kosare rather because of

12 the incursion of terrorist forces from Albanian territory.

13 Q. We do have that. You told us before. I was just trying to clear

14 up that this 10th meant the 10th of April. And you say maybe he passed

15 through once or twice. Do you know if he passed through sometime around

16 the 29th of April when he was in the 125th Brigade as reflected in this

17 combat report?

18 A. I don't know. I don't know whether he passed through Djakovica on

19 the 29th. I don't know which road he took to get there. I really don't

20 know.

21 Q. All right.

22 A. He could have taken the only road that was clear.

23 Q. And you mentioned that Nike Peraj had -- well, we talked about the

24 evidence about Nike Peraj receiving permission to visit his village. To

25 your knowledge was the -- was the combat action in that area completed so

Page 20765

1 that it would have been safe for Captain Peraj to travel to his home in

2 that area?

3 A. I don't know which date you have in mind.

4 Q. The 28th of April.

5 A. As for the 28th of April, up until the end of that day or by the

6 end of that day the operation had been completed.

7 Q. All right.

8 A. That's how it was planned, to go on for two days, the 27th and the

9 28th. It was completed that -- sometime like 1700, 1800, 1900 hours that

10 afternoon. I'm not sure when exactly.

11 Q. All right. Thank you. I want to turn to another topic now, and

12 first I want to direct your attention to your testimony in Milosevic at

13 page 47487. And this has to do with the KVM mission and verification, and

14 in answer to a question from Mr. Nice, you said at line 24:

15 "Not a single unit was brought to Kosovo without notification to

16 the KVM. There was not a single movement, not a single entry or exit from

17 the territory of Kosovo and Metohija. Nothing was done without notifying

18 the KVM."

19 Is that still your position today?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Let me ask you if you were aware of elements of the 37th Motorised

22 Brigade from the 2nd Army being brought into Kosovo in early March 1999.

23 A. I know that a combat group belonging to the 37th Motorised Brigade

24 was brought to Kosovo and Metohija in March.

25 Q. And the KVM was not notified about that, were they?

Page 20766

1 A. Yes, they were.

2 Q. When and how?

3 A. Each day we exchanged information about the movements of vehicles

4 in Kosovo and Metohija in case there were more than five vehicles moving

5 about regardless of whether the unit in question was moving just in the

6 Kosovo area, whether it left Kosovo or whether it entered Kosovo and

7 Metohija. Suppose there was a single unit entering, a somewhat larger

8 unit, more than five vehicles. We knew immediately that members of the

9 verification mission would notice --

10 Q. I would just like to know when did you notify the KVM about the

11 37th Motorised Brigade coming into Kosovo, and how did you do that? Who

12 did you tell?

13 A. I can't explain right now whether I was the one who did that or

14 whether it was the new team that started working as of the 10th of March.

15 I can't remember the exact date when the combat group arrived in Kosovo

16 and Metohija. In principle they arrived in March. I know that much. I

17 was there up until the 10th of March. I was in charge of those meetings.

18 But after that date I was no longer the one who chaired those meetings.

19 Q. Well, we -- we have evidence I could show you from the 37th itself

20 indicating they came to Kosovo Mitrovica on the 7th of March, 1999. Does

21 that refresh your recollection?

22 A. If they arrived on the 7th of March then Ciaglinski knew it, and I

23 knew it; and I'm sure he was told at one of the meetings he had with me,

24 or someone from my team would have told him anyway.

25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The witness answered, but I wish to

Page 20767

1 raise a matter of principle here. If Mr. Hannis wants to show the witness

2 a document, let him tell us which document it is to see if he knows that

3 particular document, and the witness can see but all right the witness

4 provided an answer before Mr. Hannis gave us the number, so fine.

5 MR. HANNIS: For the record, Your Honour, I would indicate Exhibit

6 P2039, the daily combat report from the 37th Brigade as my source for that

7 information.

8 Q. Colonel, I would direct your attention then to your testimony in

9 Milosevic at page 47534, and you were being asked about a notebook that

10 apparently you had with you when you testified in Milosevic. Do you

11 recall that -- do you recall that notebook?

12 A. Yes, I do.

13 Q. And you read some of the entries in that notebook, and do you

14 recall that the last entry in that notebook as you testified at page

15 47535, was on the 9th of March, 1999?

16 A. I said that the last date I entered something into that notebook

17 was the 9th of March. As of that date onwards, there are no further

18 entries in that notebook.

19 Q. And at page 47535, you read one of the entries from -- I believe

20 it's the 9th of March that said: "37th group brought in." So according

21 to that it appears on the 9th of March you had an entry in your notebook

22 that the 37th had come in, and I assume that means come into Kosovo;

23 right?

24 A. Yes, that's what it means.

25 Q. Okay. And that 37th Motorised Brigade was -- was a VJ unit that

Page 20768

1 was outside barracks, and that was not one of the three groups that was

2 permitted under the agreement, was it?

3 A. As we interpreted the agreement, it allowed us, if we assessed our

4 security to be under threat, to take everything in our power, all measures

5 in our power, to defend ourselves and to reduce the threat to the greatest

6 possible extent. In March, in view of the assessments we had carried out,

7 we were already taking measures against the expected aggression, and one

8 such measure was what you saw in the notebook, that is, bringing in this

9 unit to the territory of Kosovo and Metohija. This unit arrived pursuant

10 to an order from the Chief of the General Staff or some other army

11 commander. They certainly did not come on their own initiative.

12 According to the agreement, we had a right to this. That's why I

13 said we never broke the agreement or violated it.

14 Q. Well, I think you're overstating it, Colonel, if you say you never

15 violated the agreement. Let me show you Exhibit 3D484. This is -- these

16 are the minutes of the VJ collegium from the 10th of December, 1998, and

17 maybe it will make it easier if I hand you a hard copy, because it's

18 several pages. Thank you.

19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just a moment, please.

20 I'm checking, but it seems that this document was not announced. I do

21 apologise to my learned friend if that is not the case, but it seems to be

22 unannounced.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis.

24 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I believe it's on my list. My case

25 manager is checking for me.

Page 20769

1 I'm told I have 584 and not 384, Your Honour.

2 Q. So, Colonel, is it your position --

3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] It's 486 in the transcript. What

4 document is this? What's the number of the document? In the transcript

5 it's 484.

6 MR. HANNIS: That's what I have, 484. And I think what is on my

7 list as 584.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis is claiming it's a typographical error.

9 Do you oppose this?

10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I do because this is

11 the second document already. Yesterday, we had another document that was

12 not announced but was used. Now we have this document, and in that case

13 we won't need the lists any longer unless we follow instructions and

14 announce the precise documents to be used.

15 MR. HANNIS: Your Honours, I'm okay to move on.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Okay. Carry on, Mr. Hannis, as you wish.

18 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

19 Q. Okay, Colonel, we'll skip that one. I'll show you a different

20 one, and when I get the hard copy I'll trade with you.

21 Let me go to another VJ collegium minute, and I'll hand you the

22 hand copy of this one. This is from the 25th of February, 1999, and this

23 is Exhibit Number P941.

24 Colonel, if you could in your hard copy go to page -- I think it's

25 page number 15, and in e-court the B/C/S is page number 16 because the

Page 20770

1 cover page doesn't have a number.

2 Actually, if you'll look at page 14. If we could go back one

3 page. In the e-court to page 15 in B/C/S, and it's page 15 in English.

4 Let me start with the part that says "Conclusion." Do you find that?

5 It's right above where there's a reference to General Ojdanic speaking.

6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may assist. Both

7 pages are in English, but now we do have the B/C/S.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've found the passage.


10 Q. Thank you. And I will tell you this is General Curcin speaking,

11 and in conclusion he says: "The week behind us was characterised by the

12 upgrading the 3rd Army and part of the VJ units planned to be used in

13 Kosovo and Metohija to full combat readiness."

14 Then we go to Colonel Dimitrijevic who says: "With respect to the

15 departure of an anti-terrorist battalion from the 72nd Special Brigade for

16 Kosovo and Metohija, I found it inappropriate that nobody had ever

17 consulted me about it."

18 Were you aware that prior to the 25th February, 1999, elements of

19 the 72nd Special Brigade had come into Kosovo?

20 A. I'm not sure I knew this, but I know that part of this unit, and

21 it says so here, was in part of Kacanik fighting against the terrorist

22 units closing off that road.

23 Q. The thing I want to know is did you know that they'd gone in

24 Kosovo? You didn't, did you?

25 A. No.

Page 20771

1 Q. So as far as you know, it was not reported to KVM, was it?

2 A. As far as I know, it was not reported by me. Perhaps something

3 was done at the level of the General Staff with their team. Maybe it was

4 done at that level. It's possible, but I was not informed. Although I

5 don't really recall this detail. To be more precise, I don't remember.

6 Q. Okay. And if you'll go to the next page in the B/C/S.

7 General Curcin is speaking, and he says at the proposal of the 3rd Army

8 command and after the assistant Chief for Operations, the staff sector of

9 the chief of General Staff made a decision and issued an order which was

10 implemented. And then he goes on and says you're ordered, General, not to

11 split the units that are being sent down there but to use them as a whole

12 has not been obeyed. Ojdanic says and not to bring them to Kosovo.

13 That's the essence of the matter.

14 Would you agree with me from what we've just looked at that even

15 General Dimitrijevic and General Ojdanic may not have been fully informed

16 about the 72nd Special Brigade being brought into Kosovo?

17 A. I don't know about that. I'm not aware of what relations there

18 were between them, why Dimitrijevic would speak in at that way or somebody

19 else. All I know in general is that we had a legitimate right, in view of

20 the forthcoming aggression to prepare our defence against the aggression

21 to the best of our ability.

22 Q. That's not the point, and that's not my question. The question

23 has to do with whether or not you were informed and whether or not the KVM

24 was being informed as they were supposed to be under the agreement; and

25 you didn't know about it. Is looks like some of the guys on the General

Page 20772

1 Staff didn't know about it. So how can -- how can the KVM be informed

2 under those circumstances?

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bakrac.

4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my learned friend is

5 providing an answer and making the witness speculate. The witness has

6 said that he didn't know whether the team at the level of the General

7 Staff had informed the mission or not. He said that quite clearly. Now

8 my learned friend is making him speculate and putting a different response

9 into his mouth.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Visnjic.

11 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] May I, Your Honour, very briefly?

12 Whenever Mr. Hannis puts a question he speaks as if the entire 72nd

13 Brigade went there or the other -- entire. He always refers to entire

14 brigades, and it was only parts of brigades. I would like that to be made

15 clear.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: I think, Mr. Hannis, you're essentially asking the

17 witness questions that are for us to answer.

18 MR. HANNIS: All right, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: So let's move on.

20 MR. HANNIS: All right.

21 Q. General, before we leave this document could you go to page 18 in

22 your hard copy. This is page 19 in the e-court. And if you find -- it's

23 page 19 of the English in e-court as well. If you could find where

24 General Obradovic is speaking. Do you see that?

25 A. Yes. Yes, I see that.

Page 20773

1 Q. And the second paragraph under his remarks says in my translation:

2 "Secondly, I support the idea that we must not send even the

3 smallest number of troops to Kosovo because I'm afraid it might be

4 purposely construed as a breach of certain provisions in the agreement and

5 because a minor issue can become a very complicated one. Therefore, I

6 would suggest that not even the smallest of units be sent to Kosovo and

7 Metohija in the next ten days because we are bound by the current

8 agreement to inform them of everything going into or out of Kosovo, et

9 cetera."

10 And that's consistent with your understanding, isn't it, that you

11 were bound to inform KVM about all of the troop movements in and out of

12 Kosovo; right?

13 A. It was our obligation to do that.

14 Q. Thank you. If you just give me a moment, Colonel. Related to

15 this early in your testimony on Friday last week, you were shown an

16 exhibit by Mr. Bakrac which had a schematic map of Kosovo diagramming

17 various groups that the OSCE observed to be out of barracks in their view;

18 and in your answer one thing you talked about was at page 108 on Friday,

19 page 108, line 7, under the agreement the Pristina Corps was allowed to

20 have three groups across the area, and these groups were in Stimlje, in

21 Dulje. That was one group in two different locations. The other group

22 was in Volujak area, and the third group was in the Lapusnik area, or,

23 rather, the rear of that group was in Komorane. It was also one in the

24 same group in two different locations.

25 Let me stop you there and ask you this: So as I understand that,

Page 20774

1 you say these three groups were in five locations; right?

2 A. Yes, that's correct.

3 Q. And Colonel Ciaglinski told us that in his conversations with

4 members of the commission on cooperation, I don't remember now if he said

5 he heard it from you or from Loncar that the VJ took the view that the

6 entirety of the province of Kosovo was considered by the VJ to be a

7 training ground. Are you aware that Colonel Ciaglinski testified to that

8 or that's in his statement?

9 A. What Ciaglinski said is a total falsehood.

10 Q. Okay. So it's not your view that the entirety of Kosovo is a

11 training ground?

12 A. It's not just my view. It's the truth. Mr. Ciaglinski received a

13 map with all the training grounds entered in where the Pristina Corps was

14 conducting training for the military on the territory of Kosovo and

15 Metohija. These were permanent shooting ranges and training grounds. And

16 he received that map. That's why I'm saying that Mr. Ciaglinski is not

17 telling the truth. It was not all of Kosovo, not the entire territory,

18 only those places that had been designated for the purpose for decades.

19 Q. Well, one of the things that I -- I'm sorry, did you want to

20 say --

21 A. I wanted to say for years. I may have been exaggerated when I

22 said for decades. I didn't use the most precise term.

23 Q. In -- in one of your answers earlier when you were talking about

24 alleged incidents with the KVM, I think you described for us there were

25 occasions where the KVM was driving down a road and they came to a village

Page 20775

1 where elements of the VJ were deployed, and then they had to either stop

2 and call and get permission or they had to go around. Is that accurate?

3 Do you recall incidents like that?

4 A. Yes, I recall that.

5 Q. And -- and we've heard other evidence that I think indicated that

6 it appears that the VJ considered some inhabited areas, villages, to be

7 within their training area. Is that right?

8 A. No. No, that's not right.

9 Q. Are you aware of an incident in Podujevo in late December 1998

10 where VJ elements were purportedly engaged in an exercise and then were

11 fired upon and responded, and there was some -- some controversy about

12 that with the -- with the OSCE mission? Did you know about that incident?

13 A. I'd have to see the document mentioning this to jog my memory.

14 After a lapse of ten years, it's difficult to recall the specific events.

15 Q. That's fair. Let me -- let me read you something and I'll ask you

16 if this refreshes your memory or if you heard anything about this. This

17 is from a VJ collegium session on the 30th of December, 1998, and it's

18 General Dimitrijevic speaking. It's Exhibit number P928 [Realtime

19 transcript read in error "P9208"]. I'll just read it to you now to try

20 and save a little time.

21 He says: "In addition, the current situation in the vicinity of

22 Podujevo, I think we must be completely consistent here and completely

23 open towards each other, so to speak. This situation in Podujevo and the

24 surroundings, it was complex before, but when did it suddenly become even

25 more complicated? After the so-called pretend or real planned exercises

Page 20776

1 in which this company took part in the field, General, these sorts of

2 moves will lead us to disaster. The explanation that this was a planned

3 exercise, that is not true. It was planned that the unit would provoke

4 the terrorists so that the MUP would then have to do whatever it had to

5 do."

6 Hearing that, does that refresh your memory about an incident in

7 Podujevo in late December 1998?

8 A. Listening to this I realised that General Dimitrijevic had no idea

9 what the situation in Podujevo was. If Ciaglinski made a statement, I

10 think he could have said -- well, he told me there were 3.000 terrorists

11 there already. They were digging trenches along the roads. Before the

12 verification mission arrived, they hadn't been there at all, and we hadn't

13 had any problems as regards the passability of roads. The road from Nis

14 via Podujevo to Pristina. We didn't have any problems there until

15 December.

16 This statement by Dimitrijevic really surprises me, that he said

17 that at the collegium. I find that really surprising. I think it's

18 nonsense.

19 Q. You know what General Dimitrijevic's position was in the army?

20 A. I know very well what his position was, and I know him very well.

21 Q. And are you saying that he was not well-informed?

22 A. Either he was not well-informed or he said those things

23 intentionally. Those are the only two options I see.

24 Q. You don't allow for the possibility that he was well-informed and

25 he was correct?

Page 20777

1 A. No. He was not correct. I think Ciaglinski said he even got a

2 medal because of the situation in Podujevo when he went to Britain.

3 Q. Well --

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Kotur, what do you mean by either he was

5 well-informed -- sorry, either he was not well-informed or he was saying

6 these things intentionally? What do you mean by the second of these?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I meant to say by this was that

8 Dimitrijevic was opposed to the command. I knew that, and that's why I

9 said what I did.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Mr. Hannis the number for this exhibit

11 is it P928?

12 MR. HANNIS: Yes. I'll check, Your Honour, but --

13 JUDGE BONOMY: It's just been recorded as 9208.

14 MR. HANNIS: It should be 928, 928.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.


17 Q. Colonel, when you say Dimitrijevic was opposed to the command,

18 what exactly do you mean? Who are you referring to?

19 A. When I said that, I meant to say that the security service was

20 beyond the command. It was -- it didn't want to obey the command, and

21 Dimitrijevic was at the head of that service.

22 Q. And what's the source of your information for that?

23 A. My personal experience with his service.

24 Q. And what was the nature of your personal experience? Did you have

25 personal dealings with him?

Page 20778

1 A. Yes, with his organs.

2 Q. Well, did you have personal experience with General Dimitrijevic?

3 A. I only saw him once, but I had experience with his organs and

4 assistants.

5 Q. Was there anything about your one personal experience with

6 General Dimitrijevic that would support your view that he was opposed to

7 the command? I'm just talking about that one personal experience with

8 him.

9 A. I'm about to tell you something but I'm not sure that will be

10 sufficient for you to fathom the situation, and you might -- you might not

11 find my answer satisfactory, but I'm going to tell you this: At the corps

12 command level and at the brigade command level, if one discusses

13 something, maybe a person to be sent for further training or education,

14 maybe an appointment, anything at all, and a commander considers this as

15 something that should be done, and then one of the security organs takes

16 the floor and says, "Well, you know, we have something there, so don't."

17 That's as good as a done thing. No explanation. No further information

18 provided or anything like that. What is most frequently the case is that

19 there is no negative work or poor situation with those people behind it,

20 rather some sort of a clash of personalities. And this would be most

21 efficiently dealt with through the security service, with their officers.

22 I mean, I don't want to go into any details. That is of no relevance for

23 this trial. This is my position, my opinion. That's all I'm saying. I

24 have a firm position on these issues, and that's what I believe them to be

25 like.

Page 20779

1 Q. All right. Let me ask you a question about the 37th Brigade that

2 came in -- parts of it came in and, I believe, the 7th of March, 1999. Is

3 it your position that they came in to defend the territory, or were they

4 coming in to engage in training?

5 A. The 37th was not there for training. It was there to fight the

6 terrorist forces, the terrorist forces that by that time had already

7 significantly gained in strength in Kosovo and Metohija. They were also

8 there to perform day-to-day activities. They jeopardised the entire

9 territory and any movements throughout the territory. Something similar

10 to what actually was the case in June and July 1998.

11 Q. Can we have a look at Exhibit P2039. Colonel, this is a daily

12 operational report from the 37th Motorised Brigade, dated the 20th of

13 March. I -- oh.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: The problem seems to be resolved. Can you -- no.

15 No, no.

16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it's not about the

17 document. I think my learned friend has exceeded his time. I stood up

18 before the document was brought up, but then he started asking the

19 question. I just sat down, but now that my learned friend Mr. Hannis has

20 stopped, I think that I am allocated for my re-examination and the

21 examination granted to Mr. Ivetic has already been exceeded by at least

22 half an hour according to my calculations.

23 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I don't have the math in front of me,

24 but that sounds about right. I think I have another 15 minutes I would

25 like to -- to go. I have this document and then some matters related to

Page 20780

1 Ciaglinski and credibility.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: The situation here is are fairly exceptional,

3 Mr. Bakrac. We have a fairly lengthy transcript, as you know, initially

4 tendered as the evidence of this witness and departed from and then a

5 number of obvious lines to be followed in cross-examination based on the

6 extent of the information available to the Prosecution. Mr. Hannis again

7 is being fairly focused in his cross-examination. There have been

8 occasions when the Prosecution have not exceeded the time, in fact have

9 been significantly under the time that could have been used if you take it

10 on an individual witness basis; and as you know, we've always viewed the

11 time in the end of the day as global and have been prepared to extend the

12 time available in individual cases if it's not going to exceed the global

13 figure and it can be justified in the individual case, and here that does

14 appear to us to be the situation. And bearing in mind that there are only

15 two issues to be pursued, we shall allow Mr. Hannis that extra 15 minutes.

16 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. Colonel, as I said, this is 20 March 1999, the daily operational

18 report from the 37th. You'll see under 5.3 it says: "On 7 March 1999,

19 the 37th mtbr stand-by forces departed to the general area of Kosovska

20 Mitrovica with the aim of carrying out exercises ..." I will tell you also

21 that in this case at transcript page 19926, line 23, Colonel Djikovic

22 [sic] himself, or General Dikovic now told us that they were coming for

23 training. Are you willing to agree that your previous answer about that

24 is mistaken?

25 A. I believe what General Zivanovic said they were there for training

Page 20781

1 and that's true. Our units don't have professional soldiers. They're not

2 well-trained soldiers. In the Kosovska Mitrovica area or sector, there is

3 Zimusa [phoen], which is a training ground, and I'm sure that --

4 Q. You've answered my questions?

5 A. -- these units were trained there and prepared for combat.

6 Q. Now, you know there's in the evidence in this case and -- well, in

7 the Milosevic case there was a dispute between the evidence of

8 Colonel Ciaglinski and your evidence about certain events. You know about

9 that; right?

10 A. Yes.

11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise. Just a

12 minute, please, before we go too far. By that time it will be too late.

13 Mr. Hannis talked about Djikovic. That's what the transcript reflects,

14 and in my earphones I heard Zivkovic, and then the witness said Zivanovic.

15 Can we please ascertain who this person was, because I think the

16 interpretation was wrong. It was Zivkovic instead of Djikovic. I think

17 my learned friend Mr. Hannis had Dikovic in mind.

18 MR. HANNIS: I'm not sure of my pronunciation but I'm referring to

19 the one who is the commander of the 37th Motorised Brigade.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: I think we all know that but can you help us

21 further with the name? I remember the evidence, but I don't remember who

22 gave it by name. Are you satisfied with that explanation, Mr. Bakrac,

23 that it's the commander of the group of the 37th that came to Kosovo?

24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, Your Honour. Dikovic.

25 It's just that the witness was told through his headset that it was

Page 20782

1 Zivkovic, and then he said Zivanovic as commander, and he doesn't know who

2 said what, so I thought that might lead to some confusion in the record.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you for clarifying that.

4 Mr. Hannis.

5 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

6 Q. And this -- this dispute in the evidence actually started when

7 Colonel Ciaglinski testified in closed session in Milosevic case, and part

8 of his evidence was that he had met with you on a particular occasion and

9 you had given him a map and purportedly told him about a plan to expel the

10 KLA and the civilian Albanian population from Kosovo; right? That's the

11 gist of how this whole thing started; right?

12 A. Mr. Ciaglinski, there was this closed session that was open but it

13 was closed when Ciaglinski testified. He said that I disclosed to him a

14 plan to expel the Siptar population from Kosovo and Metohija.

15 Q. Let me ask you this. It's my understanding from his testimony and

16 your testimony that during the time that you worked together in Kosovo in

17 1998 and 1999 it seems that you -- you each respected the other and viewed

18 the other as professional and honest in your work. Would you agree with

19 that?

20 A. I agree that I was acting in a professional, responsible, and

21 conscientious manner, and I thought that Ciaglinski was doing the same.

22 Q. Okay.

23 A. In view of the statements that he made to me at various meetings.

24 Q. Okay. And when you told us in the Milosevic case at page 47469

25 that you became aware of this closed-session testimony "in Belgrade from

Page 20783

1 my colleagues," and you were asked which colleagues. You said: "The

2 colleagues who worked with me." Mr. Nice asked you for names and then you

3 said you couldn't say. And then you said: "And I really am not going to

4 name any names, because I'm not quite sure who said it. So I really -- I

5 don't really want to give anybody any trouble."

6 We can go into closed session right now, Colonel, if that would

7 help, but I would like to know the names of the colleague or colleagues

8 who told you about what Ciaglinski had said in closed session. If we go

9 into closed session will you do that?

10 A. No need for closed session. I simply don't know what to say. I

11 don't know who it was. That said it. I can't remember. There were a

12 number of people, and I don't want to name a single name, which perhaps

13 would not be accurate.

14 Q. Could --

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis, just before you proceed further, I take

16 it what was heard in closed session before is now public.

17 MR. HANNIS: Yes, it is, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: We don't need to be concerned about that.

19 MR. HANNIS: No, we don't. It became public in Milosevic, and

20 then it's been public in our earlier proceedings.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well. Please continue.


23 Q. Well, it seems to me it's likely to be a fairly small number of

24 individuals who could have told you about that. How many -- how many are

25 you talking about? Is it one of six or one of ten?

Page 20784

1 A. I might as well say 50. There were four or five of us in that

2 office when I was told. I don't know who it was that said it. Therefore,

3 I will not go any further. They were all people in positions of

4 authority.

5 Q. Well, you understand if we knew the names of one of those four or

6 five that might help us follow up on how that information came to you.

7 Can you name in closed session for us any of those four or five persons,

8 or is it simply that you refuse to?

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bakrac.

10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I really don't see that

11 this is something that is at stake in this trial. I really don't see the

12 need to further investigate this, whether some information was shared from

13 the Milosevic case and waste time like this and use this witness for this

14 purpose. I think the Prosecutor is free to perhaps call this witness at a

15 later date and investigate the matter. I just don't see how it's relevant

16 to our trial.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: I disagree entirely, Mr. Bakrac. This is an

18 extremely relevant issues because the credibility of both this witness and

19 Ciaglinski, who are two very important witnesses, is at stake, and the

20 question's a very simple one, and the witness clearly can give more

21 information than he is giving without necessarily committing himself to

22 the identity of the person from whom he got the particular piece of

23 information that mattered. So the inquiry being conducted by Mr. Hannis

24 is a legitimate exercise of his cross-examination time.

25 So please continue, Mr. Hannis.

Page 20785

1 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Q. Colonel, can you name any of those four or five persons? And if

3 you like, we can go into closed session.

4 A. I can't.

5 Q. You can't or you won't?

6 A. Can't.

7 Q. Okay. Because you don't remember?

8 A. I don't. Not by name.

9 Q. This was a fairly significant and probably startling event for

10 you, was it not, to be told that Ciaglinski had testified in the Milosevic

11 trial and said you gave him a map and told him about VJ plans, and you're

12 hearing this from your VJ colleagues. That must have been a pretty

13 exciting event. Wasn't it? Just yes or no for now.

14 A. Not exciting because it's not true. That's one thing. And the

15 other is --

16 Q. Let me stop you there. Untrue events can be just as exciting or

17 more exciting than true ones, can't they? We get angry and we get

18 outraged when somebody says something untrue about us; right?

19 A. Mr. Prosecutor, sir, I saw on TV when Ciaglinski testified in open

20 session at least. What he said in open session, when he used a felt pen

21 to draw a plan on a map. It was all perfectly clear to officers at the

22 corps command who knew me, immediately it was clear to them that

23 Ciaglinski had me in mind. That's what he said in open session. He

24 nearly drew my picture without saying the name. Why? Every day I had a

25 meeting with him at 10.00. It was a compulsory meeting. There were many

Page 20786

1 such meetings. And I -- in closed session he drops the name. I didn't

2 know some of the things that he said in open session that I was a patriot,

3 a Serb, military officer, and everything else that he said about me, my

4 authority that even the higher ranking officers were afraid of me and all

5 those impressions that he shared I heard that when I came here; but about

6 the expulsion plan, this is something that he drew on the map and that's

7 what matter to you. And we all knew that, and what did it matter if

8 somebody said well, Kotur, that's you. Well we all knew that so I don't

9 think I was particularly excited, so that much is true.

10 Q. Well, your wife at some point in time was excited about it, wasn't

11 she?

12 A. No.

13 Q. She called Colonel Ciaglinski and told him that he had ruined your

14 lives. You knew Ciaglinski testified about that. Is it -- is it correct

15 that she called him? Just, first of all, did she call him?

16 A. She called him because I wanted her to, and she did. She didn't

17 call without me knowing about it, but I explained why we had called him.

18 Q. Okay. And, yeah, I want to ask you about that. He testified, I

19 think, in April 2002, and his testimony here in this trial was that he got

20 the call from your wife about a year after that.

21 Do you recall when she made the phone call, approximately?

22 A. I can't remember exactly, but I know it was over a year after

23 that. I had left the Pristina Corps by this time and was now at Novi Sad.

24 Maybe he has a call identification number, and if he does he could tell

25 that it was from Novi Sad and not from Nis or from Leskovac.

Page 20787

1 Q. Well, his evidence is it was about a year later so we'll say

2 sometime in 2003, and your evidence in Milosevic was that she called him

3 because she wanted to check on your apartment; is that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Which -- which apartment was that?

6 A. My wife's apartment at Belgrade Street 52. The same street where

7 the verification mission was stationed, and that's where

8 Mr. Drewienkiewicz lived. The flat was never returned to me. Right now

9 there is Agim Ceku's brother staying there. We sued them, and although we

10 won the case we still haven't managed to have our flat returned to us.

11 Q. So -- in Pristina?

12 A. Yes, in Pristina.

13 Q. So 2003, almost four years after you had left Kosovo, your wife

14 suddenly out of the blue calls Ciaglinski to ask about your apartment. Is

15 that your testimony?

16 A. No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm telling you this: I was

17 renting at the time. I had nowhere to live, no flat of my own, because my

18 flat had been taken by someone else. I was thinking maybe about the

19 possibility of renting this flat to one of the people down there from the

20 verification mission. I knew that Ciaglinski had been training this unit

21 in Germany, and I know that he came with Jackson, he and

22 Mr. Drewienkiewicz were the first to enter Kosovo and Metohija on day one,

23 and he told me he knew many officers from that unit. It was only logical,

24 since I was in trouble, and I still don't own a flat, that I should go and

25 speak to someone who I believe could be of some assistance, and that was

Page 20788

1 the reason. And I said that Ciaglinski called us, and he informed us, and

2 you talk to him you've probably heard that, too, that a young married

3 couple from Pec were now living in that flat. And I think my wife wished

4 him a merry Christmas and that was the extent of Ciaglinski's conversation

5 with my wife. I never called him because I don't speak English. My wife

6 speaks perfect English and that's why she was the one to call because she

7 was the better person to speak to him since I wasn't able to.

8 Q. Colonel, you gave Mr. Ciaglinski a map during that meeting, didn't

9 you?

10 A. What meeting?

11 Q. The meeting Ciaglinski testified about receiving a map from you

12 and being told about the plan.

13 A. Ciaglinski, I didn't -- Ciaglinski, all he got from us was a blank

14 map at his own request, no plan to speak of.

15 Q. Did you --

16 A. Mr. Ciaglinski has two statements about this.

17 Q. Did you give him a map?

18 A. Yes. He got a blank map, 1:100.000 Kosovo and Metohija. That was

19 the scale, I mean.

20 Q. Colonel, I suggest what really happened is that you and Ciaglinski

21 worked together. You got along well. You respected even other

22 professionally and you may have gone maybe little bit further than you

23 should have. You gave him that map and you told him a little bit about

24 what the plan was. When he testified, and that came to light, you found

25 yourself between a rock and a very hard place; and you had to deny

Page 20789

1 Ciaglinski's evidence and your story about why your wife called him

2 doesn't make sense. Isn't that the truth? Yes or no?

3 A. I wish you could call Ciaglinski again. I don't think he could

4 possibly confirm what you just said. He would confirm my story as to why

5 my wife had called him. That's what the conversation was about. It was

6 in passing that she asked him why he had said that. He said he had just

7 praised me and saying things that had nothing to do with anything at all.

8 And then I heard later what I heard and saw the transcript from here so

9 there.

10 You know one thing -- what I want to know is did Ciaglinski ever

11 say that to any of his superior officers?

12 Q. Are you just trying to tell me no in a long way?

13 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I'll take that as a no and stop now.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Mr. Hannis, there's a number of

15 references been made to the Milosevic transcript. How are we going to

16 deal with these?

17 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, it has an exhibit number, a 5D exhibit

18 number.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: But only a small part of it has been referred to in

20 the course of the cross-examination.

21 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I'm in your hands. If you'd like us to

22 prepare extracts regarding the sections that I've referred to and submit

23 that as a separate exhibit number I'd be happy to do that.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: As far as I can tell the parts referred to are

25 47482 and 83, 518, 523 and 24 and 25, 47487, 47534 and 35, and then

Page 20790

1 passages in relation to the exchange over the map and over the telephone

2 call which have not been specified in the course of the cross-examination.

3 MR. HANNIS: I would indicate those are 47469 through 473. And

4 then briefly again at 47530, I believe.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: We will consider how that should be dealt with

6 during the break. We will have our break now, I think.

7 Mr. Kotur, we have to break for 20 minutes at this stage. Could

8 you again leave the courtroom with the usher. We'll resume at five

9 minutes past 4.00.

10 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

11 [The witness stands down]

12 --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.

13 --- On resuming at 4.06 p.m.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bakrac, if these various pages are admitted,

15 are there other parts of the transcript which you would seek to have

16 admitted?

17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. That was why I

18 wanted live testimony. There's nothing else we wish to tender.

19 [The witness takes the stand]

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis, you should compile a filing which

21 extracts the parts which you have referred to, including the larger

22 section you've just referred to towards the end and submit that and these

23 parts will be admitted in the absence of any objection being stated to

24 them within the seven days of the filing being filed.

25 MR. HANNIS: I'll do that, Your Honour. Thank you.

Page 20791

1 Questioned by the Court:

2 JUDGE BONOMY: You mentioned, Mr. Kotur, that you wish that

3 Mr. Ciaglinski had been asked again about the conversation with your wife.

4 He was, of course, asked here in this trial about communication with your

5 wife, and he referred to two communications that there were, one about the

6 flat but one quite separately about the events that Mr. Hannis was raising

7 with you.

8 Were you aware that she had contacted Ciaglinski on two occasions?

9 A. Yes, I was, and I said so at Mr. Milosevic's trial.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: The circumstances in which you came to learn of the

11 account Ciaglinski gave in the Milosevic trial about the map are not

12 entirely clear to me. You say that the fact that you had been mentioned

13 specifically in that context in the trial was drawn to your attention by a

14 colleague. Is that correct?

15 A. Yes, that's correct.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: You do not know wish colleague now, you can't

17 remember, but am I also right in understanding you to say that it was one

18 of a number of people who were together at the time it was mentioned?

19 A. That's correct, yes, if I understood the question correctly.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: So what Mr. Hannis was asking you was simply to

21 give us the names of even one of these, and that would enable him to carry

22 out inquiries which may indeed confirm what you're saying. Now, why won't

23 you do that?

24 A. Mr. Bonomy, anyone who followed the trial on television and it was

25 broadcast every day in our part of the world when the Milosevic trial was

Page 20792

1 on, what Mr. Ciaglinski said, well, everybody knew he was talking about

2 me. So did I. When he drew the map and so on, everybody could tell who

3 he was referring to because there was nobody else he had contacts with on

4 behalf of the army of Yugoslavia. It was neither the Judge nor anyone

5 from the Tribunal or any of Milosevic's advisors who told me this. It was

6 my colleagues who said to me, "It was you. You are the one he was talking

7 about." And I said, "Well, yes. Yes, I was." Everybody could tell. My

8 colleagues could tell when they saw the Milosevic trial. That's the

9 problem, not something else. There were five or six of us in the office.

10 I can't recall which of us precisely said, "It was you he was talking

11 about."

12 That's the gist of it. It's not that I'm trying to conceal

13 anything. Everything was clear. He didn't mention my name, but it was

14 all clear.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Was that an explanation you gave in the Milosevic

16 trial?

17 A. Well, not in such detail, but I did say that it was quite clear he

18 was referring to me and that everybody could guess that, and that's what I

19 said in the Milosevic trial. What Ciaglinski said at the trial, everybody

20 could tell it was about me, people from my team, from the corps command,

21 all the colleagues who knew me. They all knew I had cooperated with

22 Ciaglinski. That's the problem. There's no other problem, and that's why

23 I'm unable to tell you who told me, "Ciaglinski was referring to you,

24 wasn't he?" As I said, I didn't know the details until I came here. I

25 asked for the session to be open, and I explained that the reason was

Page 20793

1 everybody knew it was about me, so there was no reason for me to testify

2 in closed session. That's why I agreed to an open session, and it was

3 only then that I heard the details of what he said about me, that I was

4 two metres tall, 180 kilogrammes in weight, an imposing figure, and so on

5 and so forth. You all heard it. But neither my height nor my weight is

6 as he described it, but that's what he said.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bakrac, the passage in the Milosevic trial that

8 the witness is referring to where he has given what appears to be the same

9 explanation, we would welcome that being identified by you and submitted

10 in a filing to the -- to the Chamber as well, rather than us go through an

11 appropriate material that is not before us. If you find the passage that

12 you think records what he said on these terms, then we would welcome

13 seeing that.

14 Now, Mr. Kotur, please be clear in your mind that what the

15 Prosecutor wanted was the names of one of the five or six people you say

16 were present in the office when specifically your being mentioned in the

17 trial was discussed; and I'm finding it difficult, I for one, why you

18 won't tell us the name of even one of these people.

19 A. Well, you see, gentlemen, Mr. Bonomy, if I said it was

20 Colonel Ceda Nikolic or Ljubomir Pesic or Krsman Jelic or another of the

21 colleagues that was there, I really don't know which one of them

22 said, "Kotur, that was about you in closed session." And I said, "Yeah, I

23 know that too." And somebody could go to that person and ask him, "Did

24 you say that?" And -- well, a lot of people don't want to have any

25 dealings with the Tribunal at all or with courts for no special reason.

Page 20794

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Kotur, I've made it clear several times that

2 the question is simply designed to get the identity of someone who was

3 there, not the person who said it, because you've told us you can't

4 remember that, but what I'm having difficulty understanding is why you

5 won't even assist the Prosecutor with the inquiry to find out who it was

6 who could support your account of this.

7 In any event, that -- that matter is behind us now.

8 These are the matters that -- these are the matters that I wished

9 to raise with you.

10 Now, Mr. Fila, what is it that you wish to raise?

11 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Prosecutor mentioned

12 Sainovic once, and I want to put one question to him. Had he mentioned

13 him twice, I would have put two questions.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: There's no logic to that approach. Tell me what

15 the question is that you wish to put. It may be that it's to be put

16 through the Court in this instance.

17 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you. The question, Your Honour,

18 is the following: When questioned about the conversation between

19 Colonel Djakovic and Witness Kotur, when Colonel Djakovic talked about the

20 meeting he had attended with Perisic and how the name "Joint Command" came

21 into existence, later on it was mentioned that Sainovic and Andjelkovic

22 arrived in Kosovo as civilians -- I mean Djakovic.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: We've got Djakovic but into the meeting Perisic

24 surely.

25 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Pavkovic. Yes, yes Pavkovic. I

Page 20795

1 apologise.

2 My only question that I wanted to put was the following: When did

3 these civilians turn up? How long did they stay there in relation to the

4 time when Colonel Djakovic told him he had attended that meeting in order

5 to establish whether the arrival of Sainovic and Djakovic had anything to

6 do with the meeting, and that would be all.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Any objection, Mr. Hannis?

8 MR. HANNIS: No, Your Honour.

9 [Trial Chamber confers]

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Please proceed, Mr. Fila.

11 Further cross-examination by Mr. Fila:

12 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Kotur, you mentioned a conversation between

13 Colonel Djakovic and yourself and how the name "Joint Command" came into

14 being. Then in response to a question from the Prosecutor, you said that

15 at one point politicians arrived in Kosovo and you mentioned Sainovic and

16 Andjelkovic. The question I want to put to you is the following: In

17 relation to the conversation between you and Djakovic, the only one there

18 was in June --

19 A. I said June or July.

20 Q. Well, in relation to that conversation, when did these politicians

21 turn up? How long did they stay in Kosovo and -- well, that's it.

22 A. Andjelkovic turned up in the role of president of the temporary

23 Executive Council, and my wife worked in his cabinet. The other gentlemen

24 arrived from time to time to visit Andjelkovic in the Executive Council,

25 and so I got this information from my wife. They would arrive to get

Page 20796

1 information on the situation in Kosovo and Metohija and the terrorist

2 groups.

3 Q. But my question was when did they start arriving and until when?

4 A. I think it was in August or September, in August and September,

5 and they went to have a talk about that abduction.

6 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel and witness refrain from

7 overlapping.

8 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Could you please repeat your answer, what you said your wife told

10 you and that --

11 A. Mr. Sainovic came later as president of the federal commission for

12 relations with the verification mission. He was the president of that

13 commission.

14 Q. When Colonel Djakovic told you that he had gone with

15 General Pavkovic to attend a meeting at the MUP in June or July as you

16 said, 1998, did he tell you who was there at that meeting, who attended

17 it?

18 A. There were no civilians there.

19 MR. HANNIS: Objection, Your Honour. I didn't object to Mr. Fila

20 asking the one question he was going to ask on the 4th and it's something

21 different.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Fila --

23 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] The same question.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: We feel yet again that this is something that if

25 you thought it important ought to have been dealt with much earlier in the

Page 20797

1 examination. We all knew that the relationship between Djakovic and

2 Pavkovic would be of significance and -- anyway.

3 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] But Mr. Bakrac said he would use the

4 transcripts, and he didn't use them; and the Prosecutor didn't say he

5 would use them, but he did. How can I foresee who is going to ask what?

6 I do apologise. I don't know --

7 JUDGE BONOMY: If you have a specific question about Mr. Sainovic,

8 then please ask it.

9 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I did. I did, and that was all I

10 wanted to ask. Thank you.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Were you wanting to ask another one. That --

12 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] No, no. I don't want to ask anything

13 else. I don't know why the objection.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Life is full of surprises.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understood the question to be

16 whether there were any civilians at that coordination. If that's what he

17 meant I don't have any such information that civilians attended the

18 coordination meeting, Pavkovic -- meetings Pavkovic held in the MUP if

19 that's the question.

20 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bakrac, re-examination?

22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.

23 Re-examination by Mr. Bakrac:

24 Q. [Interpretation] Colonel, I have several questions to clarify

25 certain points, and first let's start from what is freshest in our memory,

Page 20798

1 the last few questions put by my learned friend.

2 For how long did you know Mr. Ciaglinski?

3 A. I met Mr. Ciaglinski when he arrived in Kosovo and Metohija. I

4 think on the 5th of December, 1998.

5 Q. Apart from your official contacts did you have any other contacts

6 with him?

7 A. There were no other contacts with him apart from official ones

8 while he was in Kosovo and Metohija.

9 Q. And when you had these official contacts with him, how did you

10 communicate, because I understood you to say you didn't speak English.

11 A. We communicated through an interpreter, and there was always

12 somebody there taking minutes, and very often that person would also speak

13 English because they were from the Mip point, the Federal Ministry of

14 Foreign Affairs.

15 Q. Did the members of the Verification Commission use Albanians as

16 interpreters?

17 A. Not when they came to see us, but they did when they went

18 elsewhere. However, according to our agreement, when he came to my office

19 he didn't use Albanian interpreters.

20 Q. Well, who were their interpreters then?

21 A. Well, he had Serbs when communicating with us and Albanians when

22 communicating with Albanians.

23 Q. Mr. Kotur, you knew Ciaglinski from the 5th of December for about

24 two months only officially and you communicated through interpreters. I

25 have a very simple question. If you met someone only two months ago and

Page 20799

1 if you communicate with someone only through interpreters, are you the

2 kind of man who would be so open and disclose such a plan? Is that how

3 you normally behave?

4 MR. HANNIS: Objection, Your Honour. That's -- that calls for

5 speculation, and it's -- I don't know what else, but it strikes me as

6 improper and not helpful to the Tribunal.

7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm not asking him to

8 speculate. I'm just asking him whether he is a man so open that after

9 having known someone for only two months he would disclose to that person

10 a plan of that kind. It's not speculation. I'm asking him if he's that

11 sort of man.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: It's a leading question, Mr. Bakrac. It's quite

13 inappropriate at this stage in the proceedings, so we'll move on to

14 something else. Before we do, I would like CLSS to provide a translation

15 of the tape from page 43, 19 to 23. The transcript doesn't record what

16 was actually said in English and it would be interesting to see a proper

17 translation -- a full translation, rather, of the B/C/S answer.

18 Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. I'll put my question in a different way. I'll rephrase it. What

21 did Mr. Ciaglinski know about him and what did you know about

22 Mr. Ciaglinski? Just be brief and we'll move on.

23 A. Ciaglinski only knew my first and last name and that I was an

24 infantry officer, that I had a wife and child, because he knew my wife

25 since she worked in the Executive Council; and that's where we had offices

Page 20800

1 and held our meetings. I knew about him, that he was an English

2 intelligence officer, that he had worked in Germany, that he had a wife

3 there, that he didn't have any children, that after the mission in Kosovo

4 and Metohija he was going to be a military attache in Bulgaria, that he

5 had served in Poland before that and that he was Polish by origin and had

6 served in England. And I won't go on to list what else I knew about him.

7 Q. Mr. Kotur, let's take a look at an exhibit now. It's also from

8 near the end of Mr. Hannis's cross-examination. He showed you the minutes

9 of ever a collegium. It's 3D1033. It's from December, and the question

10 was whether Mr. Dimitrijevic had some information, whether he thought he

11 had been misinformed --

12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Could we have this up on the screen,

13 please.

14 Q. -- concerning the events in Podujevo in December.

15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Could we have page 2 -- or, rather,

16 the last page.

17 Q. This is an intelligence report. It appears to be dated the 19th,

18 of the security organ of the Pristina Corps dated 19th December.

19 Please -- you don't need to go back to page 1. It was sent to the

20 General Staff of the army of Yugoslavia, and it was signed by chief

21 Lieutenant-Colonel Momir Stojanovic. Do you know who that person was?

22 A. Yes, I do know who Momir Stojanovic was. He was chief of the

23 security organ of the Pristina Corps.

24 Q. Was he subordinate to General Dimitrijevic?

25 A. Yes.

Page 20801

1 Q. Can you please read 3.1, the last paragraph.

2 A. "In the morning of the 19 December 1998, combat group 1 of the

3 15th Armoured Brigade which was deployed to Batlavsko Jezero for regular

4 company drills was observed and filmed, photographed on two occasions at

5 11 hours and 1515 hours by OSCE members. They retreated after a warning."

6 Q. It appears a report on this drill was sent to the General Staff?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. To General Dimitrijevic?

9 A. Yes, yes, you can tell by looking at this that it was.

10 Q. It also appears that the mission was informed of this drill. Tell

11 me one thing. Were they authorised to film the drill itself?

12 A. They did not have the right to film or make any sketches, but they

13 did have access to a room in the camp, and this is something that we had

14 agreed at a meeting which took place in my office.

15 Q. We see both based on this document and based on your memory, but

16 was the mission informed about the fact that this drill would take place?

17 A. The mission was informed about the fact that this drill would take

18 place, and whenever I knew that there was any movement in Kosovo inside or

19 outside, I would always inform the mission. If there was an occasion

20 where I didn't inform them about something then I probably didn't know. I

21 knew about this, therefore I informed them.

22 Q. Thank you very much, Colonel, sir. Let's move on, please. You

23 were asked a question about the 29th of April, 1999, and the visit of

24 General Lazarevic to the command of the 125th Motorised Brigade. My

25 question to you is: On the 29th of April, where was the command of the

Page 20802

1 125th Motorised Brigade? Do you know that, sir?

2 A. The command of the 125th Motorised Brigade was in Junik, or,

3 rather, Decani, Decani. My apologies. My mistake.

4 Q. Decani. Near which major town in Kosovo?

5 A. Pec, near Pec. I think Pec is closer than Djakovica.

6 Q. How do you get to Decani from Pristina? Did you not take the

7 Pristina-Pec road? Isn't that the quickest route?

8 A. That is the quickest route that one could take, and the safest at

9 the time too.

10 Q. Colonel, sir, the Prosecutor showed you a combat report of the

11 125th Motorised Brigade. We had General Zivanovic testify just before you

12 appeared in court, and he stated that in the Reka valley operation on the

13 27th and 28th one company from his 1st Motorised Battalion was in its own

14 sector, the Smonica village sector and there was a volunteer company which

15 was set up by using manpower from several different units was in the

16 Stuble; and then General Hannis here asked you here about this, and you

17 said they were protecting their own combat disposition between Smonica and

18 Junik. Okay my question what about all these places? Are all these place

19 the not outside the Caragoj Valley, the Reka valley?

20 A. These places, the locations are not outside the valley, the Reka

21 valley.

22 Q. Are they in the Reka valley or are they on the outskirts facing

23 the border? Smonica, Stuble.

24 A. I was just -- I learned my lesson yesterday, so I was just

25 waiting.

Page 20803

1 Smonica and all this, that's on the border of the valley just next

2 to the road, the Junik-Korenica-Djakovica road.

3 Q. On the border of the valley. Is that the one facing the Republic

4 of Albania?

5 A. That's right, facing the border to the Republic of Albania.

6 Q. Thank you. Colonel, sir, let us first have Exhibit -- or just to

7 speed things up, you were shown an order dated the 15th of April, were you

8 not? It said in the header "Joint Command action at Rugova." Can we now

9 please go to Exhibit 5D194, also dated the 15th of April, 1999.

10 Have a look at paragraph 2, sir. It says -- or, rather, this is a

11 document by the Pristina Corps command. It was sent to the 3rd Army

12 command, and it says that on the 18th at 0800 hours the Pristina Corps

13 command in coordination with the forces of the Serbian MUP shall launch an

14 operation too break up and destroy Siptar terrorist forces in the

15 above-mentioned sector. Now can you please go to the second to last

16 paragraph. And tell me this: Does this not envisage, or rather it says

17 the Podgorica corps command please point a responsible person to establish

18 contact. Which army does the Podgorica corps belong to?

19 A. The Podgorica corps belongs to the 2nd Army, the Montenegrin one.

20 Q. What about the command of the Pristina Corps? Did they have to

21 ask the 3rd Army to get involved in the blockade, a corps actually

22 belonging to another army, not the 3rd Army?

23 A. This is the normal procedure. If you're asking for something, you

24 do that through your superior command.

25 Q. Fine. But the question was: Why on the 15th the forward command

Page 20804

1 post issued no order to the 125th? Rather, it went through the Pristina

2 Corps command for this action at Rugova. My question is what about the

3 forward command post outside the Pristina Corps command, the 3rd Army?

4 Could they actually request coordinated action from a different army in

5 this case the Podgorica corps belonging to the 2nd Army?

6 A. No, they couldn't.

7 Q. Thank you very much, Colonel. My next question it's about a

8 document that was not announced but it was still used. Can we please have

9 P1487.

10 You were shown a suggestion for you to comment on. Now, can we

11 please look at this carefully. This suggestion, that's what it says in

12 the header, who is it being sent to? Who is the addressee?

13 A. The suggestion is being sent to the 3rd Army commander personally.

14 Q. Just above that it says the command of the 3rd Army, not the Joint

15 Command.

16 A. Yes, yes. The command of the 3rd Army in brackets too the

17 commander personally so it's to the commander of the 3rd Army personally.

18 Q. When in your documents you refer to a document when you say

19 liaison. Is there normally a header?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. So the addressee here is the 3rd Army command. Have a look at the

22 last paragraph. We believe that it would be appropriate to consider our

23 suggestions, to review your decision, and to redeploy your forces.

24 When we look at all these details, who was this being suggested

25 to? Who was this suggestion being made to?

Page 20805

1 A. The 3rd Army commander, because that's who the document was

2 eventually sent to, and the suggestion is made that he should do this.

3 Q. Colonel, in relation to this document, can we please look at

4 another document, document Exhibit 6D1130. Page 54 in e-court, please.

5 While we're waiting, let me just remind you. The document we were

6 looking at a while ago was dated the 17th of April, 1999.

7 All right. Now, this is a table. Can we please spin it around

8 and zoom in on page 54. And in item 112, can you read what it says?

9 A. Which item?

10 Q. 112. It reads: "Suggestion. Supreme Command Staff. Strictly

11 confidential." The number. Do you see that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Please read it.

14 A. "Suggestion of the Supreme Command Staff. Strictly confidential.

15 01/4849-1. The 20th of May, 1999. "Suggestion to commander of the 3rd

16 Army to take measures in order to consolidate this 7th Infantry Brigade (a

17 total of six specific proposals)."

18 Q. This suggestion, is it being sent to some sort of Joint Command or

19 to the 3rd Army command specifically?

20 A. To the army commander. We looked at that document, and it said to

21 the commander personally.

22 Q. Thank you very much, Colonel.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Does that look, therefore, Mr. Kotur, to be a very

24 similar document to the one that we looked at a moment ago?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This document, I see the exit [as

Page 20806

1 interpreted], 112, I see what it says, is that -- but I don't know where

2 this is from.

3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we don't have that

4 document. This is Exhibit 6D. It's a Defence exhibit, and if you look at

5 it, you can tell that certain proposals were made to the 3rd Army, a total

6 of six proposals. Therefore, that was no exception.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: All I was asking was whether on the face of it

8 appears to be more or less the same document as the one we looked at, or

9 is it something else. It's from the Supreme Command Staff. It's to the

10 3rd Army. It makes suggestions. Or is it something apparently different,

11 Mr. Kotur, from the previous one? Because without something along these

12 lines the evidence is no use to us, if we don't have the document.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Bonomy, if I look at 112, I see

14 what we've just read. This is a suggestion, the same as in the previous

15 document that I was shown the first time around, and then the confidential

16 number 01/4849-1, the 20th of May, 1999. I think this was transformed

17 into a table. Proposals were sent. I see the army commander orders the

18 proposal, the 3rd Army, the forward command post, and an order to the 3rd

19 Army and then information and then this is the complex nature of the

20 documents, and this is something that stems from every -- I mean every

21 number 110, 111 it talks about a document that was sent sometime before

22 and this was just put together and organised into a table so they had an

23 overview of what was going on, and that's how I see the document before

24 me.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Are you relating 112 to the two before, 110 and

Page 20807

1 111? Because they appear to have different reference numbers.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. This is a suggestion

3 being made to the 3rd Army commander to take measures considering

4 consultations with the Infantry Brigade and there the 3rd Army commander

5 was told to take care of the problems at Rugova, and that is what my -- as

6 far as I'm not sure if I --

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- see.

9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. Mr. Kotur, can we please go to an exhibit that the Prosecutor

11 showed you, P2113.

12 The Prosecutor asked you to read the first paragraph. I would

13 like you to read paragraph 2 as well and interpret it for us. This is a

14 document by the 125th Motorised Brigade. In paragraph 1 it says: "Order,"

15 and then the commander prohibits the execution of any actions by units and

16 formations without the approval of the joint command for KiM and my own

17 approval?

18 And did you please go on read paragraph 2 for our benefit, sir?

19 A. "Prepare and plan every action by the unit beforehand, clearly

20 defining the objective, tasks and duration of the action. Actions

21 performed bit units of the MUP and the Yugoslav Army by the command of the

22 MUP and the command of the Yugoslav Army, these being responsible for the

23 safe execution of tasks.

24 "For every action --"

25 Q. No, no. No need to go any further. Can you just comment on

Page 20808

1 paragraph 2?

2 MR. HANNIS: Well, Your Honour, I object. The document speaks for

3 itself. If he has a specific question he should ask it, but just to form

4 it like that I think is inappropriate.

5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I withdraw the question,

6 by I'll be showing my next document, and then I'll ask the question.

7 P1427, please. My apologies.

8 Q. You've been shown P1427. It's the decision with your initials on

9 it, decision on joint involvement of the MUP and the VJ along the

10 Glodjane-Crvnika-Grznic [phoen] axis. I don't think we should be wasting

11 any time without -- you've been shown this by the Prosecutor therefore can

12 you please now instead look at P4D141, page 2.

13 A. We don't have page 2.

14 Q. It's about to come up. Page 2. This is document produced by the

15 forward command post of the 3rd Army dated the 9th of August 1998. 4D141.

16 Look at this, Mr. Kotur look at page 1 is it true that this is a

17 report produced by the 3rd Army forward command post dated the 9th of

18 August, 1998 and it was sent to the General Staff of the General Staff of

19 the Yugoslav Army?

20 A. Yes. It's true that this is a report produced by the forward

21 command post of the 3rd Army and it was sent to General Staff of the

22 Yugoslav Army.

23 Q. Can we please now go to page 2. Rather, page 3. Next one,

24 please. You see item 5. "I hereby decide". Can you please read for our

25 benefit paragraph 3 of item 5. If we could just zoom out a little.

Page 20809

1 A. "Support the MUP forces in their attempt to crush the sabotage and

2 terrorist forces in the following sectors Gramocelj village, Prilep

3 village, and Glodjane village. The objective being to repel these

4 sabotage and terrorist forces as far as possible from the

5 Djakovica-Decani-Pec main road."

6 Q. And now look at the last page of this document, please. Next one,

7 please. Was this document not signed by the Chief of Staff of the 3rd

8 Army following the approval by the 3rd Army commander?

9 A. Yes, that's true.

10 Q. Mr. Kotur, we saw that report dated the 9th of August, the 3rd

11 Army report, which says that he decided about this action that we read

12 about. Is this something that is in relation to the action from that

13 decision, P1427 on the joint involvement of forces, and you were involved

14 in the drafting of that; right? I am referring to the one dated the 10th

15 of August, 1998.

16 A. Yes. You can see here that the army commander took that decision.

17 And he approved it. If I understand your question, that is.

18 Q. So you went to a coordination meeting with the MUP, and the action

19 had been approved by that time by that 3rd Army command; right?

20 A. Had we not obtained that approval we would not have been able to

21 carry out this action or indeed to plan this action. That's how it was.

22 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Kotur.

23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

24 questions.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Kotur, that completes your evidence. Thank you

Page 20810

1 for coming once again to the Tribunal to give evidence. You're now free

2 to leave the courtroom. Thank you.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.

4 [The witness withdrew]

5 Mr. Cepic, is the next witness SD3?

6 MR. CEPIC: Yes, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: In that case we have to take a break because of the

8 special measures that have to be taken for the evidence of that witness.

9 So we'll take our half-hour break early and resume at 5.30.

10 --- Recess taken at 4.58 p.m.

11 --- On resuming at 5.29 p.m.

12 [The witness entered court]


14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, I'm sorry, before we start I have one

16 rather late intervention in the transcript but I'm afraid. I noticed it

17 at the time but I wasn't sure. Actually, it's page 48, lines 7 and 9. My

18 learned -- my learned friend Mr. Bakrac was posing a question to the

19 witness and the witness answered, and both the question and the answer had

20 the Serbian word "prema," P-R-E-M-A, which I believe should be translated

21 as towards and not facing. It is concerning some -- some of the villages.

22 It's not a big thing, but just to be on the safe side because it's a

23 geographical, and it might -- it might be --

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Actually, I think facing would be the correct

25 English translation of that, Mr. Zecevic, but I -- is.

Page 20811

1 MR. ZECEVIC: I was told that it should be towards. I had my

2 doubts as well, Your Honours, but I thought -- I brought it up.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: We note what you say and we'll take account of it

4 in due course.

5 MR. ZECEVIC: Sorry for the --


7 Good afternoon, sir.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: You will be known to us as SD3 to protect your

10 identity and your security. Would you please make the solemn declaration

11 to speak the truth by reading aloud the document now being shown to you.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

13 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Please be seated.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: You will now be examined by Mr. Cepic on behalf of

17 Mr. Lazarevic.

18 Mr. Cepic.

19 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I would like to call

20 Mr. Usher just to pass this document to the witness. The first document

21 is in relation to the identity and the second one is the witness

22 statement. Thank you.

23 Examination by Mr. Cepic:

24 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. SD3, good day.

25 A. Good day.

Page 20812

1 Q. The usher will now show you a piece of paper with some information

2 on it. Do you recognise your personal details on that piece of paper?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Are these details correct?

5 A. Yes, they are.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 MR. CEPIC: I would like to have an IC number for this document.

8 THE REGISTRAR: That would be IC 168 under seal, Your Honours.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

10 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic, you should make an effort to switch off

12 the microphone when you yourself have stopped speaking. It's unfortunate

13 you're on your own, and therefore you won't necessarily always remember,

14 but please do your best, and please continue.

15 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. SD3, do you have your statement before you?

17 A. Yes, I do.

18 Q. Did you give this statement which is now before you to the Defence

19 team of General Lazarevic?

20 A. Yes, I did.

21 Q. Did you sign it on every page?

22 A. Yes. Yes, I did.

23 Q. If the same questions were put to you today that you answered as

24 recorded in the statement, would you answer them the same way?

25 A. Yes, certainly I would.

Page 20813

1 MR. CEPIC: Your Honour, this is the statement Exhibit Number

2 5D1393, and I would like to request to be under the seal, please.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: What is the reason for that?

4 MR. CEPIC: In many paragraphs he mentioned family names and the

5 names of his neighbours, so I'm afraid for his security. So if I redact

6 it, if I have redacted version, it would be many, many paragraphs

7 redacted.

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Sachdeva, is there any comment you want to make

10 on that.

11 MR. SACHDEVA: No, Mr. President. There's no objection.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well. It shall be under seal.

13 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic, it's not immediately obvious that --

15 that you could not reasonably file a redacted version of this in due

16 course, so in -- or by the end -- the 8th of February you should file a

17 redacted version that will be available to the public.

18 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour. May I continue, please?

19 Thank you.

20 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. SD3, what are you by ethnicity?

21 A. I'm an Albanian.

22 Q. If I were to tell you that you were a Siptar, would I offend you?

23 A. No. It's a commonly used term. Siptar and Albanians mean the

24 same.

25 Q. In 1999, where were you employed?

Page 20814

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. It was an unnecessary question, though, was

5 it not?

6 MR. CEPIC: Thank you.

7 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. SD3, just tell us what institution you were

8 employed in and what institution you're employed in today without going

9 into details.

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 Q. Please don't go into detail.

13 A. I apologise.

14 Q. Just tell us the institution.

15 MR. CEPIC: May we have a redaction on the previous details in the

16 previous answer, please.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: What are you trying to ask that's not already in

18 the statement? Is paragraph 4 not what you want?

19 MR. CEPIC: Quite clear.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm sorry?

21 MR. CEPIC: We have quite clear answer in paragraph 4, Your

22 Honour.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. So this is all unnecessary.

24 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: So we will redact it to --

Page 20815

1 MR. CEPIC: Mm-hmm. Thank you.

2 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. SD3, will you tell me in a nutshell what was

3 life like for citizens of Pristina during the bombing. We have many

4 details in your statement. I just need a brief sentence about this.

5 A. During the bombing, life in town was normal. The citizens walked

6 about as usual except at those times when there was an air raid alert. So

7 all of us in the residential building and the neighbourhood would go to

8 the bomb shelter in the building where we lived.

9 Q. [No interpretation]

10 A. During the airstrikes my family and I personally, I received many

11 phone calls, anonymous phone calls with death threats to me, my children,

12 and my entire family. They said they would impale us on a stake, and this

13 happened more than once.

14 Q. Thank you, Mr. SD3.

15 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour. No further questions for this

16 witness.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

18 Witness, just before we proceed further, you said that you weren't

19 offended by the use of the expression "Siptar." Are you aware of people

20 who were offended when referred to by Serbs as Siptars?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The term "Siptar," calling one a

22 Siptar, well, that's been going on for a long time. People would call you

23 either an Albanian or a Siptar, but it means and the same thing.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Could you deal with my question, though, which is

25 were you aware of people who were offended, rightly or wrongly, but were

Page 20816

1 offended by the use of that expression?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not have occasion to hear

3 anyone say they were offended by being called Siptar.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: We have even had a Serb witness say that he would

5 never use the expression because he knew it offended Albanians, but that

6 was not your experience?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was not my personal experience.

8 Even my friends, if they refer to me as a Siptar, I'm not offended by

9 it.

10 [Trial Chamber confers]

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Sachdeva.

12 MR. SACHDEVA: Thank you, Mr. President.

13 Cross-examination by Mr. Sachdeva:

14 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. SD3. I shan't be very long. I just wanted to

15 ask you one question on this issue: I appreciate what you say about the

16 term "Siptar," but you accept the possibility that it could be considered

17 a derogatory term for Albanian, don't you?

18 A. Well, it's possible, although the term is not a new one. It's

19 been used from before. It's a term that's well-established.

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic.

24 MR. CEPIC: I'm sorry for interrupting. Just if we may have

25 redaction of the names. Thank you.

Page 20817

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Sachdeva, are we going to be dealing with

2 specifics in your cross-examination?

3 MR. SACHDEVA: On occasion, Mr. President. I just wasn't -- I

4 wasn't aware that they were in the same -- very well. We can move into

5 closed session if it's helpful.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, again we shall have to redact the reference,

7 and we shall go into private session until it's not necessary to be

8 specific.

9 [Private session]

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 20818











11 Pages 20818-20819 redacted. Private session















Page 20820

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 [Open session]

18 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.


20 Q. SD3, you -- you told the Court today that -- that life in Pristina

21 went on as normal during -- during the bombing, that is, from the 24th of

22 March, I take it, until the end of the -- end of the bombing. However, in

23 your statement -- as you say in your statement, you did see columns of

24 refugees leaving Pristina, didn't you?

25 A. Yes, that's correct.

Page 20821

1 Q. And I take it that you saw these refugees or these civilians

2 leaving Pristina in the first period of the -- of the bombing, the end of

3 March, beginning of April; is that right?

4 A. I saw that in the second half of April. There were the greatest

5 number of refugees after the post office was bombed.

6 Q. Now, you spent -- you spent the -- apart from when you had to

7 leave Pristina for a couple of days, but you spent most of the time in

8 Pristina during the war, didn't you?

9 A. Yes, yes, I did.

10 Q. And as you have given details in your statement, you are familiar

11 with the -- the atmosphere and what was taking place in Pristina at that

12 time, weren't you?

13 A. Only in a certain period of time. I was limited by my work. When

14 I was at home, then I was able to see what was going on.

15 Q. You said with respect to the -- to the refugees, you said in your

16 statement that you did not know if anybody -- if anyone had forced these

17 people to leave their homes, and I speak about the Albanian civilians.

18 SD3, you accept, don't you, the possibility that these Albanian civilians

19 were indeed forced to leave Pristina by members of the VJ and indeed the

20 MUP in Pristina? You accept that, don't you?

21 A. I can't accept that, the reason being the following: The column

22 was moving on its own. No one was driving them. They travelled down that

23 road and no one was mistreating them or anything like that.

24 Q. Well, as someone who was in Pristina during the war, you must have

25 been aware of civilians being forced from their houses in the town by the

Page 20822

1 military and by the MUP. You must have heard that, or you must have been

2 aware of that.

3 A. Believe me, I never heard anything like that, and I certainly

4 didn't see anything like that in terms of someone driving someone else out

5 of town.

6 Q. You must have been aware that civilians, Albanian civilians, were

7 leaving in their hundreds to the train station, being forced by the VJ and

8 by the MUP at the train station in Pristina and going towards the

9 Macedonian border. You knew that, didn't you?

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic?

11 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to hear

12 some sort of a foundation for this question. Thank you.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: You say there's no basis in the evidence for that

14 question? We --

15 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] It was put in a very specific way.

16 Therefore, no, I don't think so.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Which part do you say there's no evidence for?

18 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] That the VJ, too, were driving

19 civilians towards the railway station with the MUP and towards the

20 Macedonian border. Perhaps I'm missing out on something, but --

21 JUDGE BONOMY: What is your foundation for saying that the VJ were

22 involved in this activity in Pristina?

23 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, firstly I didn't use the

24 word "driving." I said they were being forced by the VJ and the MUP, and

25 maybe that's where the confusion lies. But secondly, the foundation is

Page 20823

1 from the evidence of Bala and also P1331, if I recall correctly, which is

2 the train timetable logs.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: But does any of that evidence implicate the VJ is

4 the issue.

5 MR. SACHDEVA: Yes, in my submission it does.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, in the situation where there is doubt in the

7 recollection that we have at the moment, would you please rephrase the

8 question so that it is not specific to who is actually doing it other than

9 forces of the FRY or Serbia.

10 MR. SACHDEVA: Very well, Mr. President.

11 Q. SD3, we have -- we have heard evidence in this trial from Albanian

12 civilians who -- who like yourself lived in Pristina, and they gave

13 detailed evidence that Albanian civilians were forced and deported from

14 the town by members of the Serb forces, by the VJ and by the MUP. Now,

15 are you telling the Court that none of that is true, that you didn't --

16 JUDGE BONOMY: See, you've just asked the same question. I asked

17 you to be non-specific, and the same objection. You'll need to -- you'll

18 need to quote to us evidence that the VJ were actively involved in

19 Pristina in forcing people from their homes. There maybe evidence. I

20 can't recollect it at the moment. There is an objection saying there's no

21 such evidence. So where is it?

22 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President --

23 JUDGE BONOMY: If you insist on asking the question this way and

24 not following the guidance I've given you.

25 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I'm happy to do that. I understood

Page 20824

1 that the objection was related to the train station, but --

2 JUDGE BONOMY: No. The objections related to the involvement of

3 the VJ.

4 MR. SACHDEVA: Well, on Exhibit P2260 -- 2262 page 3, Ms. Bala

5 states that: "The VJ and the MUP and the civilians were working together

6 in Pristina along the streets, the VJ and the MUP line one side, armed

7 civilians the other. On the 29th of March, 1999, the VJ, MUP, Serb

8 civilians, and gypsies wearing police uniforms went to Kosovo Albanian

9 houses and forced residents to leave." That's page 4.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, Mr. Cepic, what do you say to that?

11 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, unfortunately our

12 e-court is not operating right now. My assistant has been doing his best

13 to find that particular portion of the evidence.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: We are capable of resolving any difficulties that

15 arise from this. We will allow you to ask the question the way you wish

16 to ask it, Mr. Sachdeva because the essence of the question is not so much

17 who did it as what -- or the exactly identity of who did it, but what was

18 happening and whether that was at the instance of Serb forces. So please

19 proceed.


21 Q. SD3, if you remember the question -- I'll just repeat it. So we

22 have had evidence in this court that deportations and Albanian civilians

23 were forced to flee their houses in Pristina. Are you maintaining your

24 evidence that that didn't happen or that you didn't know about that

25 happening?

Page 20825

1 A. I personally saw a column in what is now Emperor Dusan Street next

2 to the student dorms, but that was the single -- the own column that I

3 saw. I did not see any other ones.

4 Q. And quite apart from what you saw as -- as someone who was living

5 in Pristina, as an Albanian living in Pristina, did you through other

6 information, through your neighbours, through your friends, through other

7 people that you may have come into contact, did you not hear about

8 these -- these deportations and expulsions from Pristina? You must have

9 heard of those.

10 A. Believe me, I didn't. I lived in the centre of Pristina. I moved

11 as far as Ljubljana or maybe the centre itself, the post office. I didn't

12 go any further than that, and none of my neighbours knew about this.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm now confused, I'm afraid.

14 Witness, your statement says that you saw some columns, plural, of

15 refugees leaving Pristina and heading for Skopje.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My apologies. There was a single

17 one, a long, single column, not columns.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you.

19 Please continue, Mr. Sachdeva.


21 Q. SD3 I'm going to ask you one more question on this issue. Are you

22 aware of someone called Miodrag Simic?

23 A. I'm not sure. I'm not sure if it's the same person. (redacted)

24 (redacted). So it

25 would appear that I didn't know this one.

Page 20826

1 Q. In any case, I don't think it's disputed, but Mr. Miodrag Simic

2 was from the General Staff and was typically stationed in Belgrade, and he

3 testified in this case, and I just want to read to you a question that was

4 asked by question by another member of the Prosecution team, and I want

5 to --

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Just before you do that Mr. Cepic is concerned --

7 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, again just because of

8 the names. Pre-emptively I would ask that we move into private session

9 and for the names to be redacted.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Miodrag Simic is -- that name is not going to lead

11 to any identification of the witness.

12 (redacted)

13 Well, it's down to you to assess that, I suppose. Thank you.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Are you going to be dealing with -- you are

15 obviously dealing with names, so let's go back into private session and

16 redact that part.

17 If we're going to be specific in a situation like this, there's

18 always a danger of -- of something happening that reveals identity, so I

19 think we'll just stay in private session for the rest of this evidence and

20 avoid any difficulty. I wish parties would sort these things out in

21 advance, be clear in their minds when the problems are going to arise and

22 not embarrass the Court, which this does.

23 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I apologise entirely. It's simply

24 that this person is in the General Staff in Belgrade. I did not

25 anticipate it would lead to any measures in respect of the protection.

Page 20827

1 [Private session]

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 20828











11 Pages 20828-20832 redacted. Private session















Page 20833

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 [Closed session]

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 [Open session]

20 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic, your next witness.

22 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, our next witness is

23 Mr. Tomislav Mitic, Mitic.

24 [The witness entered court]


Page 20834

1 [Witness answered through interpreter]

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Good evening, Mr. Mitic. Would you please make the

3 solemn declaration to speak the truth by reading aloud the document being

4 shown to you.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

6 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Please be seated. You will now be

8 examined by Mr. Cepic on behalf of Mr. Lazarevic.

9 Mr. Cepic.

10 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Examination by Mr. Cepic:

12 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Mitic, or, rather, Colonel Mitic, good

13 evening to you.

14 A. Good evening.

15 Q. Did you make a statement to the Defence team of General Lazarevic?

16 A. Yes.

17 MR. CEPIC: If you could pass this statement to the witness,

18 please. Thank you.

19 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Mitic, do you see this statement before you?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did you sign every page of the statement?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Thank you. Colonel, if we were to put to you the same questions

24 you responded to as recorded in this statement, would you answer them the

25 same way today?

Page 20835

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Thank you?

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic, the number for the statement?

4 MR. CEPIC: Oh, yes. The number is 5D1390, and I would like to

5 request admission of that statement.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

7 MR. CEPIC: Thank you.

8 Q. [Interpretation] Colonel, in your statement you spoke about arming

9 in the year 1998, but I wish to ask you about something that is not

10 mentioned in the statement. Are you perhaps aware that the organs of the

11 Ministry of Defence in the year 1998 distributed weapons? Do you have

12 such information?

13 A. Yes. In my area of responsibility I do have knowledge that

14 weapons were distributed.

15 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 24 of your statement, you mention RPO.

16 Could you please tell me what this abbreviation stands for?

17 A. It's an abbreviation for reserve police detachments.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Or, rather, "squads," interpreter's correction.

19 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Colonel, could you please tell me where in the Prizren district

21 these squads were located.

22 A. On the territory of Pristina, Orahovac, and Suva Reka there were

23 such squads in the village of Ljubiste, Novake, Smac, Velika Hoca,

24 Orahovac, Recani, and elsewhere.

25 Q. What was the task of these units?

Page 20836

1 MR. IVETIC: I would object to this question insofar as the

2 witness who thus far in his statement and in his oral statement has not

3 shown that he was a member of the police or in a position to -- to testify

4 about what in fact the task of these units were or how they were

5 organised. So I would object without having some foundation laid for this

6 question which asks this witness, who is a member of the military

7 territorial department to comment on the tasks that were carried out by a

8 formation that in his statement he claims were not under his command.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic.

10 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in view of the fact that

11 the colonel spent quite a long period of time on that territory and that

12 the military district at the head of which the colonel was also provided

13 reservists for the police units, I believe he is competent to answer that

14 question.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What was the question?

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE BONOMY: In view of the responsibility someone in the

18 witness's position has in the military territorial department, then we

19 consider that he is competent to deal with the question of the tasks of

20 the reserve police. However, if you wish us to put any particular weight

21 on this evidence, you will have to establish the basis of his actual

22 knowledge of that particular area, namely the tasks that they undertook.

23 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Q. Colonel, did the military department offer help to the reserve

25 police squads or the MUP units?

Page 20837

1 A. The military department did not assist reserve police squads, but

2 it did provide assistance to the MUP in finding the conscripts who were

3 duty-bound to enter the MUP units. It was the MUP, however, who issued

4 them their tasks.

5 Q. Colonel, in paragraph 8 of your statement you mention equipment

6 and weapons not returned, and you give specific details for the Prizren

7 district. You said that 1.600 barrels had not been returned, about 5.000

8 sets of uniforms. And I would like us to view a brief video clip that's

9 P4. I need only a very short part from the 4th minute, 12th second, until

10 4 minutes, 19 seconds.

11 Could we have the clip, please.

12 [Videotape played]

13 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Can we stop it now. Thank you.

14 Q. Colonel, do you see this uniformed person on the screen before

15 you?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Are you familiar with this type of uniform?

18 A. Well, the picture is rather dark, but I think it's an M-77 type

19 uniform. Yes, yes. It's a military M-77 uniform. We distributed such

20 uniforms to former members of the Territorial Defence once, and to the

21 armed people before the law was enacted when the recruitment office and

22 the regional organs of the Ministry of Defence and the MUP units were

23 established.

24 As for the weapons, both persons we see are holding rifles, 7, 9

25 M-48, and the other one has a semi-automatic rifle, the other escort.

Page 20838

1 Evidently these are not members of the army or of the MUP or of the

2 regional organs.

3 Q. Thank you, Colonel. The types of weapons you have mentioned and

4 the type of uniform you have mentioned, are these the ones that were not

5 brought back?

6 A. Precisely so. As you said, 1.600 and 5.000 are the numbers that

7 remained with the mostly Albanian population which did not want to return

8 the equipment they were issued with. And this holds good for the entire

9 Prizren district.

10 Q. Colonel, thank you very much. I have no further questions for

11 you.

12 A. Thank you.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic.

14 MR. STAMP: May I make inquiry before Mr. Ivetic proceeds. I

15 received from counsel for Mr. -- for General Lazarevic a document entitled

16 a supplemental information sheet which they indicated that there were

17 inaccuracies in the statement that my friend put into evidence. I don't

18 know if they are intending to proceed with the statement at this -- or if

19 they intend to do something about that. I just want to be clear about

20 that.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic.

22 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I overlooked this and I

23 would like to thank my learned friend Mr. Stamp. Could these corrections

24 be and integral part of the statement, please. By your leave, if I may

25 just put one question to the witness to establish this. Thank you.

Page 20839

1 JUDGE BONOMY: I think the way to do it is to ask him to confirm

2 these changes, because they are few and simple.

3 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

4 Further examination by Mr. Cepic:

5 Q. [Interpretation] Colonel, please take the statement you have

6 before you. We spoke on the 27th of January. Do you remember the

7 interview when you asked to make some corrections in the statement to make

8 it more precise?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did you ask me in paragraph 6 instead of the word "razred"

11 or "class" to put the word "razrez"?

12 A. Yes. Yes. And we commented on the fact that "razred" means one

13 thing and "razrez" means an overview, and it refers to numbers, weapons,

14 and everything else.

15 Q. Thank you, Colonel. Did you ask me in paragraph 7 to correct an

16 error concerning Exhibit P1415 which you were explaining, and you said

17 that the statement should read as follows:

18 "I was shown an order issued by the command of the Pristina Corps

19 of the 26th of June, 1998, bearing the number P1415, and I can say that we

20 received a similar -- a similar order from the military district of

21 Pristina in --"

22 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is not sure June or July 1998.

23 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. And weapons were distributed to military conscripts according to

25 the rules of the VJ. Did you agree to have these changes entered into the

Page 20840

1 statement, yes or no?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And in paragraph 9, instead of the words "voluntarily handed over

4 once," you asked the words the continuous form to be used.

5 A. Yes.

6 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could this additional

7 information be held to be an integral part of the witness's statement.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. Just clarify one thing. You'll see at line

9 25 and line 1, rather, of page 85, there's a month. Is it June or July

10 that should go in there?

11 MR. CEPIC: June.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: June. You should upload that as a supplement to

13 5D1930 so that the supplementary information and the statement are all

14 part of the one exhibit.

15 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Mr. Ivetic.

17 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic

19 Q. Colonel Mitic, my name is Dan Ivetic and as one of the attorneys

20 for Sreten Lukic, I will have some questions for you to try to clarify

21 some issues. So please bear with me and if any of my questions are

22 unclear, ask me to clarify them for you.

23 Now, in your sworn statement that we have, 5D1930 at paragraph 25

24 you state that mobilisation of your military territorial detachment units

25 was completed on 25 March and further in your statement at paragraphs 27,

Page 20841

1 29, 30, and 31 you talk about various assignments of these units.

2 Now, in that regard do you remember that the commandant of the

3 military district in Pristina, Colonel Pesic, issued a decision for use of

4 military territorial units? And for ease and for clarity I would ask for

5 6D1470 to be called up to permit you to refresh your recollection in this

6 regard.

7 Sir, we're still waiting. The question I had for was do you

8 recall Colonel Pesic issuing a decision, which now we have a copy in front

9 of us, for use of military territorial units?

10 MR. IVETIC: I'm told it's not up on every screen, so I don't know

11 what the problem is in this regards, Your Honour.

12 Q. That's the document, sir. It looks like we now have it in front

13 of everyone. And if you need me to repeat the question, sir, just let me

14 know.

15 A. It's a question for me, is that right? The command of the -- its

16 it's not the military district but -- it's not Okrug. It's Okrug in fact.

17 And from this order one can clearly see the use of the units of the

18 Pristina Military District for all five military districts subordinated to

19 that command. It's true that the mobilisation lasted from the 25th

20 onwards, and as each unit completed mobilisation, it was prepared for

21 military action. The mobilisation went on for longer than usual because

22 of the absence of some conscripts who were away. They were employed

23 outside their territory or they were sick or they were on holiday or in

24 detention and so on.

25 Q. And just so there's no confusion, Your Honours, at transcript page

Page 20842

1 86, line 20, the Serbian word Okrug is used. Okrug is translated by CLSS

2 in our documents and has been in this case translated previously as

3 meaning "district" with "odeljenje" meaning department -- pardon me,

4 with "otsek" meaning department. So I hope that clears things up. I

5 think the -- I think that the answer does go into enough detail to allow

6 someone to be able to follow it and not be confused.

7 And my colleagues are -- oh, I see we're at the time limit, Your

8 Honour. Should we stop before I go any further?

9 JUDGE BONOMY: No. How much examination do you have?

10 MR. IVETIC: I have about half an hour examination worth, Your

11 Honour. Or I did before I started. I have somewhat less now, obviously.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Mr. Mitic, we have to bring the

13 proceedings for the day to an end at this stage and resume tomorrow, so

14 I'm afraid you have to come back tomorrow to complete your evidence. That

15 will be at 2.15 tomorrow in this courtroom. Meanwhile, it is vital that

16 you have no discussion or communication of any kind with any person at all

17 about the evidence in this case. That's evidence that's past or evidence

18 that's yet to come. You can talk to whoever you like about whatever you

19 like except the evidence in the case.

20 Now, would you please leave the courtroom with the usher and

21 return ready to resume at 2.15 tomorrow.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand, Mr. President. I

23 understand.

24 [The witness stands down]

25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m.,

Page 20843

1 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 23rd day

2 of January, 2008, at 2.15 p.m.