1 Monday, 10 March 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 8.59 a.m.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Good morning, everyone. You may have noticed
6 towards the end of last week that Judge Nosworthy was not very well.
7 Well, she has succumbed, I'm afraid, this morning, and will not be with
8 us today. We have considered the position and decided that it's in the
9 interests of justice that we should continue in her absence meanwhile,
10 and we continue with the evidence of Mr. Filic.
11 [The witness entered court]
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Good morning, Mr. Filic.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: The examination by Mr. Lukic will continue in a
15 moment. Please bear in mind that the solemn declaration to speak the
16 truth which you made at the beginning of your evidence continues to apply
17 to that evidence today.
18 Mr. Lukic.
19 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
20 WITNESS: BOZIDAR FILIC [Resumed]
21 [Witness answered through interpreter]
22 Examination by Mr. Lukic: [Continued]
23 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Filic.
24 A. Good morning.
25 Q. There was something I forgot to ask you previously, hence I will
1 go back to that topic. Do you know of the cases - and please state it
2 briefly - of clashes among Albanians themselves?
3 A. There were some mutual clashes between Albanians, in particular
4 Albanians which were doing some sort of business in terms of debts. They
5 seldom reported that to the secretariat. There was a specific case,
6 though, which also had to do with Bozidar Spasic, who was the chief of
7 OUP. He ended up as a victim of kidnapping simply because he lived in
8 the same building with someone who owed some money and resembled that
9 person. A certain entrepreneur from Skopje ordered the kidnapping of a
10 certain Saqir who owed him a few hundred thousand German marks due to
11 certain business transactions. The group that was supposed to kidnap him
12 and transfer him over the Macedonian border, illegally, of course, so
13 that the person who ordered it could retrieve his debts kidnapped Bozidar
14 Spasic, chief of OUP, by mistake. They took him to the area of Kacanik,
15 which is at the border of Macedonia, and they tried to transfer him
16 illegally to Macedonia overnight. They failed because at that time the
17 border was secured more tightly, and in the morning when they realized
18 they had made a mistake they released him.
19 Q. Thank you. Let us move on. Briefly again, what regulation did
20 you use based on which you reported to your superiors?
21 A. That was done according to the regulation on reporting which
22 prescribed the reporting process in detail.
23 Q. What type of reporting was there?
24 A. The instruction envisaged urgent, daily, and periodical
25 reporting. There are cases enumerated in which cases the ministry needs
1 to be advised of certain things urgently by dispatch or phone, and it
2 also prescribes the regular situations as well as monthly and annual
3 reporting circumstances.
4 Q. The transcript states instructions. Was it instructions to
5 report, to submit reports?
6 A. Yes, guide-lines.
7 Q. Were you reporting to the MUP staff and what procedure did you
9 A. We reported to them parallelly, daily, as part of daily
11 Q. In what way were you reporting to the MUP staff during the war?
12 A. During the war, after the Pristina SUP building had been bombed,
13 all special types of communication used by the service was -- were
14 interrupted since the switchboard had been destroyed. It was on the 29th
15 of March. After the 7th of April, when the postal building had been
16 bombed as well, the regular telephone communication was also cut off.
17 All reporting subsequently was done by couriers between the secretariat,
18 then the regional SUP in Pristina, and the ministry.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have P1092 in
21 Q. The fourth document from the end in your binder.
22 Can you tell us what this notification is about, this dispatch.
23 A. This dispatch was sent by the department of the police of the SUP
24 in Pristina to all OUPs within its area, deputy chief of the police,
25 Major Vesko Petrovic, signed this. They are asking for more urgent
1 reporting to the chief of the service when circumstances require that. I
2 believe there were some delayed reports sent during the course of the
3 previous period, and this dispatch was urging people to report more
5 Q. Was this something that could be considered regular or something
6 that would be not -- that wouldn't be so ordinary?
7 A. This would be a regular way of communicating with the SUP and the
9 Q. Thank you. In the secretariats you worked for, were there any
10 RDB employees working there as well?
11 A. No.
12 Q. A thing or two about uniforms, please. Can you tell us what sort
13 of uniforms were worn by the police in 1998 and 1999?
14 A. The active-duty and reserve policemen during that time used
15 exclusively camouflage blue uniforms, which they wore in their regular
16 tasks. PJP members had additional green camouflage uniforms with a
17 different hue of the military camouflage green uniform.
18 Q. In the SUPs you worked, were there any volunteers?
19 A. In the secretariats I worked for were no volunteers. The units
20 were strictly comprised of active-duty and reserve police officers.
21 Q. A word or two about the PJP. Within the SUP of Pristina, was
22 there a PJP company?
23 A. There were two PJP companies, and I think in B formation there
24 were two as well as in the A formation.
25 Q. Who commanded those units?
1 A. The companies were commanded by company commanders, and the
2 commander of the 124th Intervention Brigade commanded all PJP members.
3 Q. In case that one or two PJP companies of the SUP of Pristina are
4 engaged in combat, what would you be reported on, what sort of reports
5 would you receive?
6 A. The commander of the 124th who was also the chief of the police
7 would advise the chief of the secretariat on the engagement of the PJP in
8 terms of certain tasks. He would also require logistical support, and
9 that would be it.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Are you saying the commander of the 124th was the
11 chief of the police department in SUP Pristina?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. His standing appointment was
13 that one according to the establishment. He was the chief of the police
14 department. In addition to that, he commanded the 124th Intervention
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
17 Mr. Lukic.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. The chief of SUP or you as his deputy, would you be reported on
20 any combat activities or actions the PJP participated in?
21 A. The chief of SUP wouldn't have direct contact with a commander
22 during combat, but if there were any casualties, people killed or
23 wounded, PJP members, then he would be notified.
24 Q. Did you ever plan any actions together with the military, with
25 the Army of Yugoslavia?
1 A. Personally, no, never.
2 Q. Do you know whether your predecessor at the SUP of Urosevac
3 participated in the action planning together with the VJ?
4 A. I don't know about that.
5 Q. Did you ever receive any maps or orders to carry out
6 anti-terrorist actions?
7 A. No.
8 Q. What was the relationship between the SAJ and the secretariat of
9 the interior?
10 A. The SAJ was a separate organizational unit of the ministry. They
11 were located in the area of Pristina. For a number of years they had
12 been subordinated directly to the SAJ command in Belgrade, they had their
13 own commander, it was Zivko Trajkovic.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have Exhibit 6D618 --
15 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: 681.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] -- put up in e-court.
17 Q. Concerning this document, I wanted to ask you whether you knew
18 that there was an engagement of MUP units, or rather, of the PJP outside
19 Kosovo and Metohija?
20 A. Yes, I know of that.
21 Q. Do you know who decided on the engagement of those units?
22 A. It was decided upon by the ministry or the public security
23 sector, as can be seen from the dispatch.
24 Q. Who sent the dispatch?
25 A. It was sent by the public security sector of the Ministry of the
1 Interior to all SUPs from which PJP members are to be taken for this
3 Q. Let us go to the last page, that is, the second page. Is
4 General Djordjevic's name in the signature block?
5 A. Yes, the chief of sector, General Djordjevic.
6 Q. The dispatches of the 28th of July, 1998, so as not to go through
7 all of the documents but similar documents are 6D682 to 6D687.
8 Mr. Filic, did you hear of the spring offensive of the KLA that
9 was supposed to take place in 1999?
10 A. There was information in circulation about that. I have no
11 proof, though. Such information existed in the previous years as well
12 throughout the 1990s. Often they had leaflets distributed about the
13 so-called bloody Fridays that were supposed to follow in the following
14 period, but they were just trying to intimidate the population of the
15 province so that the people would start moving out. The same applied to
16 the upcoming spring offensive on the part of the KLA.
17 Q. We are talking about 1999 this last part of your answer refers to
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did you know that members of the KVM left Kosovo and Metohija;
21 and if so, can you tell us when?
22 A. Members of the KVM left Kosovo and Metohija on the 19th of March,
23 in the evening.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have Exhibit 6D614
25 put up in e-court, page 690, item 539. Page 690.
1 We announced -- we notified the Prosecutor of the particular
2 item; however, it was not translated.
3 Q. Can you tell us what was the KLA's reaction to the KVM's
5 A. In those days when the KVM left, on the same day and the
6 following few days the KLA transferred its terrorist activities to urban
7 areas. There were terrorist attacks on policemen, police patrols, some
8 bridges were demolished, and so on.
9 Q. Item 539, what date does it mention and who was killed?
10 A. The 20th of March and it describes the fact that near Luzane in
11 the area of Podujevo a terrorist attack was carried out and policeman
12 Goran Milutinovic was killed, he was from the secretariat of the interior
13 in Belgrade.
14 Q. Where was he killed?
15 A. On the main road, he was ambushed.
16 Q. Item 540, date, place, who was killed?
17 A. 540 on the 20th of March, 1999, there was an attack on a police
18 patrol --
19 Q. And what happened?
20 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness read more slowly, please.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was an attack, a policeman
22 Goran Milicevic was wounded.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now we need page 691, the last item
24 on page --
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Just before you move on to that. Where was
1 Goran Milicevic attacked?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the village of Drenovac,
3 municipality of Pristina, in a place called Mahala.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm just curious to know that I've understood you
5 correctly. You've said that what happened as the result of KVM
6 withdrawal was that KLA activity transferred to urban areas, but these
7 are not examples of that. Have I heard correctly what you said was the
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These cases are being put before me
10 now, but I can tell you cases that occurred in the town of Pristina. On
11 the 21st of March in the town itself in Miladin Popovic Street --
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Just a moment.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we have page 691, item 547.
15 Q. And, Witness, please continue.
16 A. In Miladin Popovica Street in the town there was a terrorist
17 attack on a reinforced police patrol of six policemen, and on that
18 occasion four policemen were killed and two were seriously wounded. In
19 the area of Dragodan neighbourhood there was another attack on a police
20 patrol. The patrol responded to the attack, if you open that I'll see
21 the name of the Albanian, I've forgotten his name, he was seriously
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page, the first
24 paragraph at the top of the page, please.
25 Q. This incident with four policemen, you'd already gone to
1 Dragodan? I don't have Dragodan here among my documents, but if we can
2 look at page 693, item 552. Does this describe an attack in the town and
4 A. On the 22nd it was reported that a terrorist attack had been
5 carried out in the Medzik cafe in Pristina, Lejonora Jutuli [phoen] was
6 killed and several persons were injured.
7 Q. Very well.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now have P1100.
9 Q. Mr. Filic, can you see what sort of document this is?
10 A. This is a combined daily report of the ministry staff addressed
11 to the Ministry of the Interior of the Republic of Serbia. It's dated
12 the 27th of March, 1999.
13 Q. And had the air-strikes already begun?
14 A. Yes, three days before that date.
15 Q. In item 2, do you see what the consequences of the terrorist
16 attacks were?
17 A. Item 2, if we can move the paper up a bit, if we can scroll down.
18 MR. LUKIC: The first page, only scroll it up, please.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you can see in item 2 that --
20 MR. LUKIC: Point 2, please.
21 Q. [Interpretation] You have it in your file. Could you find it,
22 please, in the binder.
23 A. Well, I see now, 24 people were killed in the terrorist attacks
24 and 31 wounded.
25 Q. And what period does this summary refer to?
1 A. 24 hours, it's a daily report.
2 Q. And did the Pristina SUP deliver such information to the Pristina
4 A. The Pristina SUP and all the secretariats delivered this
5 information, and then it was compiled at the staff level, put together,
6 for the needs of informing the ministry.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Sorry, the sender of this information is which
8 organizational unit?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The MUP staff in Pristina.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: That's the organization headed by Mr. Lukic?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Now I understand. Thank you.
13 Mr. Lukic.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] A correction, Your Honour.
15 Q. The body headed by Mr. Sreten Lukic, was it an organizational
16 unit? Is the staff an organizational unit of the MUP?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now look at page 2, we need
20 paragraph 4.
21 Q. Tell us what this paragraph describes and whether you're aware of
22 this event or were you aware of it at the time it happened?
23 A. This paragraph describes a NATO attack, a projectile exploded in
24 the village of Gornje Dobrevo, municipality of Kosovo Polje. It was near
25 the main road Pec-Pristina, the main Pec-Pristina road, and six persons
1 were killed including four women. The bodies were found near the missile
3 Q. It says six persons here --
4 A. Yes, six persons.
5 Q. At the time did you know about this event?
6 A. Yes, I did.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now have P1099, please.
8 Q. This overview of security-related events, again it's being sent
9 by the MUP staff on the following day, the next 24 hours, that is. What
10 does it say here, how many people were killed and wounded in terrorist
12 A. It says that 20 people were killed and 16 wounded in terrorist
14 Q. Do you remember who was among the wounded on that day?
15 A. I think that there was a terrorist attack on a police vehicle
16 belonging to the SAJ commander, Zivko Trajkovic, on that day.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at the next page, last
19 Q. Do you see at the bottom of the page that the wounding of
20 Zivko Trajkovic is reported?
21 A. Yes, and his driver Radovan Aleksic was killed, whereas the
22 following received serious injuries: Nikola Padovic and Velimir Popovic.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We now need page 3, paragraph 3.
24 Q. What was reported concerning an event in Kosovo Polje, what
25 happened there and when?
1 A. On the 27th of March, at around 1030, in Cara Dusana Street, near
2 the bakery, the Metohija bakery owned by Idriz Hoxha, there was a
3 terrorist attack on policemen carrying out their regular duties, and
4 policemen Momcilo Simic and Radovan Pasic were seriously injured, both
5 from the OUP in Kosovo Polje.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now we need page 4, paragraph 2.
7 Q. What was reported?
8 A. That on the 28th of March, at around 0800 hours on the main road
9 of Nis, a Toyota car with a Belgrade licence plate was attacked, and in
10 it were Russian journalists Aleksandar Pobrakov Andrejevic, Patnikov,
11 Sergej Evgenovic, and their driver was Nenad Stojkovic from Zemun. On
12 that occasion Stojkovic was killed, the driver was killed. The Russian
13 journalists were not injured.
14 Q. Well, let me ask you the following --
15 MR. STAMP: Perhaps I should have risen earlier, but with this
16 document, document P1100 and 6D614, the witness has really been reading
17 entries from the documents and it hasn't really been indicated whether or
18 not he's speaking about these things from his personal knowledge, having
19 been reminded from the documents. He's just reading entries. So
20 there's -- apart from that, there's no foundation for him to --
21 MR. LUKIC: I'm exactly at the point what I'm intending to show
22 the foundation.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Please continue.
24 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
25 Q. [Interpretation] It says here, Mr. Filic, that it happened on the
1 Pristina-Nis road. Where is that in relation to the town of Pristina?
2 A. It's just as you leave Pristina in the direction of Nis near the
3 Vranjevac neighbourhood.
4 Q. After this terrorist attack where did the terrorists attack
6 A. Well, most probably these terrorists took refuge in the town
7 itself in the Vranjevac neighbourhood.
8 Q. Do you know that after this attack an attempt was made to arrest
9 the terrorists?
10 A. More than once --
11 MR. STAMP: Again, that is just leading.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Leading question, Mr. Lukic.
13 MR. LUKIC: I asked if he knows that somebody is arrested.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: That's a leading question. That's you giving him
15 the answer. That's what a leading question is. It's a classic example.
16 Move on to something else.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. How did the police react after this attack, your police from
20 A. After the attack the police made several attempts to arrest the
21 terrorists who had attacked the Russian journalists in the area of
22 Vranjevac neighbourhood, but they were unsuccessful because of the fierce
23 resistance by the terrorist groups located in Vranjevac.
24 Q. Do you recall how long this went on for?
25 A. Over the next two or three days there were several unsuccessful
1 attempts to arrest the attackers.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: We now have a textbook example of what not to do
3 followed by what ought to have been done. Thank you.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Was there a constant air-raid warning in force in Pristina?
6 A. From the beginning of the air-strikes on the 24th of March there
7 was a constant air-raid alert. Many NATO planes carrying out their
8 combat tasks in other areas flew over Pristina, and whenever the planes
9 flew over from the direction of Macedonia and Albania, an air-raid
10 warning was sounded so that while I was in Pristina we were constantly --
11 were constantly being warned of air-raids.
12 Q. During the night were there any orders to do something in
13 relation to air-raids?
14 A. Well, since most of the air-strikes were during the nights, it
15 was ordered to turn off electricity at 8.00 p.m. until 4.00 a.m. in the
16 morning to make everything dark.
17 Q. Did that have any adverse consequences?
18 A. Of course. These blackouts and the dark had certain adverse
19 consequences because it suited all sorts of criminals, facilitating
20 robberies, and other crimes.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now call up back P1100, page
22 6, item 4.
23 Q. What date is this, what's the event? Item 4.
24 A. It's about the apprehension of perpetrators of an aggravated
25 robbery in the area of SUP Pristina. In most cases in those initial days
1 of the air-strikes.
2 Q. How many people were apprehended?
3 A. 21 persons were caught and arrested for having committed an
4 aggravated robbery or an aggravated theft.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: On the English version there is not an item 4.
6 MR. LUKIC: Yeah, I can see that now.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: And there is confusion clearly about these -- are
8 these identical pages? It doesn't look like it.
9 MR. LUKIC: But number 5 --
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Is --
11 MR. LUKIC: -- in English is actually 4 in Serbian.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Ah, yes. Thank you. There are two number 6s.
13 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Okay. That clarifies it. Thank you.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now have 1099, P1099, page 5.
16 Q. Page 5, look at number 5, the first paragraph, that's the next
17 day for SUP Pristina. How many people were arrested?
18 A. The next day as well, 22 persons were arrested for the crime of
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now call up 6D623, item 7.
21 This is a different document than the one I meant. 6D614, page 142,
22 please. Page 142 --
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Which item?
24 MR. LUKIC: Item 67. Now we have the right page.
25 Q. [Interpretation] What is this item about, Mr. Filic?
1 A. It's about the measures taken against members of the police who
2 committed certain criminal offences during those days.
3 Q. Was it the practice in SUP Pristina to arrest policemen found to
4 have committed a crime?
5 A. Yes, it was the practice to arrest such policemen, and I remember
6 in particular one case when the CO of a police station brought into the
7 building where we were relocated a policeman who had stolen a vehicle
8 from an Albanian, filled it with some goods, and tried to go to his
9 hometown outside Kosovo. We arrested him and turned him over to
10 operative workers for further processing. A case file was compiled and
11 the case was turned over to an investigative judge.
12 Q. What is item 68?
13 A. That a member of the reserve police, a certain Milivoj Niksic,
14 committed the crime of appropriation of various objects, and a criminal
15 report was filed against him to the district public prosecutor's office.
16 Q. Which segment of SUP Pristina dealt with crime?
17 A. In SUP Pristina, in any other secretariats, it was the crime
18 police as an organizational unit of the secretariat.
19 Q. Sometimes it sounds funny when we ask such questions of people of
20 your profession, but what was the main task of that section?
21 A. Well, to suppress and prevent crime, to work on all cases of
22 crimes committed, processing these cases, pending the day when they would
23 be turned over to the public prosecutor's office.
24 Q. In the town of Pristina and on access roads, were there any
25 check-points and whose check-points?
1 A. There were check-points, and according to a certain instruction
2 there should have been a greater number of combined check-points manned
3 by the police and the army. I know about one that worked all the time in
4 Laplje Selo, that is on the Pristina-Urosevac road. I used that road a
5 lot, so I know, and I believe on other access roads to Pristina there
6 existed similar check-points.
7 Q. In addition to the army and the police, who else worked at such
8 check-points seizing various goods?
9 A. The financial police, market inspections, they got involved in
10 certain cases when certain kinds of commodities and goods were
12 MR. LUKIC: Your Honours, I would like to ask this witness
13 something in relation to two protected witnesses previously, Prosecution
14 protected witnesses. So I cannot address their pseudonyms, otherwise
15 they wouldn't know who I am talking about. So I would kindly ask to go
16 to the private session.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: You're saying you need to use the actual names of
18 the witnesses, is that --
19 MR. LUKIC: Otherwise I can address whether they reported
20 something or not, I cannot ...
21 JUDGE BONOMY: We shall go into private session. If it turns out
22 to be unnecessary, then we can undo that.
23 [Private session]
17 [Open session]
18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. If a crime is not reported, can any steps be taken?
22 A. In serious cases like rape, we could act if we got information
23 from other sources, but if the injured party does not turn up and we
24 don't get any information from other sources then it's not possible to
25 take any steps.
1 Q. I'd like to ask you something now about the MUP staff. Are you
2 able to tell us to what extent SUP Pristina depended on the MUP staff in
3 Kosovo and Metohija in its operation?
4 A. SUP Pristina was an organizational unit of the ministry directly
5 linked up the chain of command to the public security sector, and it did
6 not depend in its regular work on the MUP staff which was located in
8 Q. Was the MUP staff able to be any kind of equivalent to the
9 provincial secretariat of internal affairs that you described?
10 A. No, it could not be a counter-part in any way in terms of
11 strength or the function that the provincial secretariat had while it
13 Q. And since when was the MUP staff in Pristina in existence?
14 A. I believe it was first set up sometime in mid-1990 when policemen
15 and employees of the secretariat started leaving the service en masse.
16 Q. Where were they located, the members of the staff, in 1990 and
18 A. In the SUP Pristina building, on the second floor, they occupied
19 a number of offices.
20 Q. Who out of the SUP of Pristina was located close to those
22 A. The office of the chief of SUP Pristina was close to their
24 Q. Did you go to the office of the chief and how often?
25 A. I was in the building very often and I frequently visited the
1 office of the chief because we had regular cooperation in our daily work.
2 Q. Were you a member of the staff in 1998 or 1999?
3 A. I was not.
4 Q. Did you attend any meetings held at the staff?
5 A. I did attend a number of meetings held at the MUP staff, those
6 meetings that were to have an expanded composition where some of the
7 officials of the ministry were visiting.
8 Q. We heard that you were the chief of SUP Urosevac?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. During your tenure as SUP Urosevac chief, were you invited to
11 those meetings of the staff as a member of the staff?
12 A. I was invited to provide analysis and briefing to the staff
14 Q. When you took over as chief of SUP Urosevac, did anyone tell you
15 that you were a member of the expanded MUP staff?
16 A. No, nobody told me any such thing.
17 Q. Did you ever get a written decision to that effect?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Your appointment as the chief of the Urosevac SUP, did it mention
20 any such thing?
21 A. No, that appointment, there was no mention of that.
22 Q. Did you receive a decision on the forming of the staff ever?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Did you know at the time that in the decision on the formation of
25 the staff it's -- it is stated that you as the chief of the SUP are a
1 member of the expanded staff?
2 A. I'm not familiar with that. I just said that I never received
3 it, and in my appointment as the chief there was no mention of it. I was
4 never notified of any such thing.
5 Q. At that time did you have any knowledge that David Gajic was a
6 member of the staff?
7 A. I had no such knowledge.
8 Q. Did you have knowledge that Milos Vilotic was a member of the
10 A. Milos Vilotic enjoyed the same status as Gajic, and I didn't know
11 he was a member of any -- such a staff either.
12 Q. Did you have any knowledge of Milorad Ulemek being a member of
13 the staff?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Did you have any knowledge that Zivko Trajkovic was a member of
16 the staff?
17 A. The same answer stands, no.
18 Q. The people we mentioned for whom you said you didn't know were
19 members of the staff, did you ever see them at the SUP in Pristina?
20 A. I saw my colleagues from the State Security Service, and they
21 would often be at the local mess where they had lunch. I saw Vilotic and
22 others who also worked for the centre -- security centre in Pristina. As
23 for Trajkovic and Lukovic, I don't remember seeing them.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Sorry, just one moment.
25 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Who is Lukovic?
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Could you please tell Their Honours who is Lukovic.
4 A. Milorad Lukovic was the commander of the special operations unit.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Did he go under any other name or nickname?
8 A. His nickname was Legija.
9 Q. What part of the MUP did he belong to?
10 A. To the state security sector.
11 Q. Do you know at what level there was cooperation between the
12 secretariat of the interior and the Army of Yugoslavia in Pristina?
13 A. In Pristina, while I was there until the 15th of April, as far as
14 I know, that cooperation went on at the level of the commander of the
15 124th Intervention Brigade, Mr. Brakovic, and the commander of the
16 Pristina brigade of the VJ, Mr. Mladen Cirkovic. It is possible that the
17 traffic police chief, Mr. Vujosevic, cooperated with them since his men
18 manned the check-points. There may have been some cooperation with
19 certain units there.
20 Q. At what level was there the cooperation of the SUP and the VJ in
22 A. In Urosevac, the PJP commander -- company commander Lecic
23 cooperated with the deputy commander of the brigade, Colonel Kolundzija.
24 Q. While you were in the area of Urosevac, was there a single
25 independent PJP company -- Urosevac company unit executed --
1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Was there a single
2 action carried out by the PJP company of Urosevac?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Did you ever see Arkan's guards at the hotel of --
6 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the name of the
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I never saw them at the hotel.
9 When preparing for my testimony here, I read some statements made by
10 members of the KVM who said that it was so, but I believe it probably
11 wasn't so, it wouldn't have been possible.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic, the interpreter did not hear which
13 hotel you were referring to.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Grand.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Grand.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Did you ever find out whether there were any Arkan's units in
19 Kosovo Polje?
20 A. No. In Kosovo Polje there was a temporary base after their
21 facility had been destroyed of the special anti-terrorist unit in the
22 Masinopromet company in Kosovo Polje. Maybe someone took them for
23 another unit, but only that unit was located there.
24 Q. What is the abbreviation of that unit?
25 A. The SAJ.
1 Q. In 1998 and 1999 or before or later, did you hear of the
2 existence of a plan of organized moving out of Kosovar Albanians from
3 Kosovo and Metohija created by someone in Serbia or Yugoslavia?
4 A. I did not hear of the existence of such a plan.
5 Q. Within your service was there insistence placed on the protection
6 of civilians?
7 A. Within our service we always insisted on protecting civilians at
8 all meetings we held, together with the leadership and officials at the
9 level of Kosovo. We always insisted on the importance of protecting
10 civilians and providing assistance within the ability that we had.
11 Q. Did you have any operational knowledge as to why civilians there
12 were leaving?
13 A. According to our operational information, they were leaving due
14 to the fear of NATO bombardment and mutual clashes of members of KLA and
15 security forces of Yugoslavia. There was also -- there were also orders
16 on the part of the KLA leadership for them to leave. Reading certain
17 documents, preparing myself for the testimony, I came across a document
18 in which Mr. Merovci, who is Ibrahim Rugova's right hand, whereby he says
19 that there were columns of vehicles leaving for Macedonia at
20 Djeneral Jankovic between the 19th and the 20th of that month, right
21 after the KVM had left. People started leaving Kosovo in columns. Then
22 at Vranjevac, there were clashes between KLA members who had set camp
23 there with the security forces trying to apprehend the suspected
24 terrorists who had attacked the vehicle with Russian journalists. That
25 could have been one of the reasons why people were pulling out of the
2 JUDGE BONOMY: What is the document you're referring to?
3 Mr. Filic, what is the document that you're referring to?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is a document concerning the
5 moving out of Albanians from the area. I don't have it -- I don't have a
6 specific document, but the question was whether there was a plan in
7 existence of organized moving out.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: No, the question was whether you had operational
9 knowledge as to why civilians were leaving, and you said that in --
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Why they were leaving, yes.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: And you said that in preparing for your testimony
12 you came across a document in which Merovci --
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is Merovci's statement. He was
14 Ibrahim Rugova's right hand --
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, yeah, but you mean --
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He gave it to the investigators.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: His statement to investigators. How did you read
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I came across that statement when I
20 was preparing myself for this testimony. It was with the other documents
21 I was given.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
23 Mr. Lukic.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. What was hit in Pristina at the outset of the air-strikes?
1 A. During the first night of bombardment, the SAJ facility was
2 targeted as well as the youth settlement buildings which used to house
3 the units of the combined forces of the police. The airport was
4 targeted, the barracks of the VJ, as well as the customs and roads
5 administration. Certain buildings at Belacevac were targeted which used
6 to house certain military units. There were explosions in that area. In
7 the course of the next few days, the following few days, there were other
8 buildings targeted, such as the SUP of Pristina, the postal office
9 building, the VJ facility at Lukare and at Grmija, the Jugopetrol company
10 warehouse was hit on that occasion together with a cemetery nearby. Then
11 the Ina warehouse at Devet Jugovica, the bus station there. When I was
12 still in Pristina our temporary residence was at Ibra Lepensa [phoen]
13 building in the so-called Kicma settlement. A rocket landed killing an
14 Albanian child who was in an apartment. A rocket landed at the outskirts
15 of Pristina whereby a vehicle was killed with four people in it. Many
16 other buildings were targeted as well in the area of Pristina and
17 Pristina SUP.
18 Q. What about the central part of the city?
19 A. I mentioned that part as well. The Kicma settlement, and there
20 was that child that was killed in an apartment block.
21 Q. After the air-strikes began, how did you communicate, how did you
22 receive and send reports?
23 A. Our communication with Pristina and the ministry was done by
24 couriers, between them and the SUP. When the secretariat and postal
25 office were hit, after that there was no possibility for regular
1 communication. We could only communicate by radio devices within smaller
2 units and to a very limited extent because their communication could be
3 detected and locations targeted.
4 MR. LUKIC: Sorry, Your Honour, I have to ask you to go to the
5 private session for another minute or two. Again, the Albanian citizen.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well. We shall go into private session.
7 [Private session]
12 [Open session]
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we just have in e-court
15 Exhibit P1100, page 3, page 3.
16 Q. Can you see this paragraph which begins: "On the 27th of
17 March ..." It's the fourth paragraph on the page.
18 A. In Kosovo Polje?
19 Q. Yes. What is this about?
20 A. It's about a terrorist attack in which Dragan Stankovic, a
21 policeman, was killed and a number of reserve policemen were injured.
22 Q. But what time of day was it?
23 A. At 0030 hours.
24 Q. I don't want to put a leading question. What form of terrorism
25 is this?
1 A. Well, on a freight train as far as I can see. It was an attack
2 on a freight train.
3 Q. Was it in a town?
4 A. Yes, in the town of Kosovo Polje.
5 Q. So it's not really legible. It's a freight vehicle, not a
6 freight train. Thank you, Mr. Filic. Those are all the questions I had
7 for you.
8 A. You're welcome.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stamp, the point that you raised about the
10 absence of evidence of the witness's own personal knowledge of the events
11 in P1099, P1100, and 6D614, Mr. Lukic indicated he was about to address
12 it but he hasn't addressed the point at all. There was at least one
13 event in which it was plain that the witness was speaking from some
14 personal knowledge, but I think we have to bear in mind also that he's
15 the deputy chief of the SUP for that area dealing with these cases. And
16 when we come to evaluate evidence of a hearsay nature such as this, then
17 obviously we will look at the whole circumstances and decide what to make
18 of it. We've also been told by the Lukic Defence that there will be a
19 witness who is going to deal with this -- certainly the Exhibit 6D614. I
20 don't know about the other two, but I wouldn't imagine the other two
21 because they're internal reports coming -- dealing with the affairs in
22 the Pristina area.
23 So I think we would see what you said as a comment and indeed a
24 warning comment to Mr. Lukic about the arguments that might be advanced
25 later in the absence of personal knowledge.
1 MR. STAMP: Yes, indeed. Very well, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Petrovic.
3 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Cross-examination by Mr. Petrovic:
5 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Filic, my name is Vladimir Petrovic, and on
6 behalf of the Defence of Nikola Sainovic I'll be putting only a few
7 questions to you. Today you mentioned that at the time while you were
8 working in Urosevac as a chief of the secretariat you attended some
9 meetings which were held in Pristina in the MUP staff. I would like to
10 know whether you recall attending a meeting held on the 7th of May, 1999.
11 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] And could we have in e-court
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did attend a meeting on the
14 7th of May, 1999.
15 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Mr. Filic, do you recall whether that meeting was also attended
17 by Nikola Sainovic?
18 A. Nikola Sainovic did attend that meeting, the deputy prime
19 minister of the federal government, but he was there only at the
20 beginning of the meeting and he left after the meeting had started.
21 Q. Do you remember what he said on that occasion?
22 A. Well, he spoke about the current situation, the efforts being
23 made by the state organs to regulate matters the way they should be
24 regulated. Then he gave us encouragement. He said we were in a
25 difficult situation, that we should hold on. It was a political sort of
2 Q. Please take a look at a part of this document, P1996.
3 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] In Serbian can we have the bottom
4 of page 3 and the beginning of page 4, the top of page 4.
5 Q. Mr. Filic, it will come up in a minute. The last paragraph on
6 page 3 and the top of page 4. Please take a look. Have you seen page 3?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And the top of page 4, please, in Serbian. What is this about,
9 can you tell us?
10 A. Well, this is about a certain text which was published in the
11 media and which contained state directives for the forthcoming tasks in
12 the province. We received these texts even before Sainovic told us about
13 them at that meeting.
14 Q. Thank you, Mr. Filic.
15 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions,
16 Your Honours. Thank you.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic.
18 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Cross-examination by Mr. Cepic:
20 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Filic, my name is Djuro Cepic. I appear for
21 General Lazarevic. I will dwell a little bit on this same document. In
22 your testimony you described relations with the Army of Yugoslavia.
23 We're still referring to the meeting.
24 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Could we have P1996 on the screen
25 again, the one used by my colleague, and we're still referring to the
1 same meeting. It's page 7 in the B/C/S version. In English I -- I'm not
2 quite sure.
3 Q. Well, here you have a record of what you said and here in the
4 middle -- thank you. And midway through your intervention you say that
5 relations with members of the Army of Yugoslavia are as they are in other
6 SUPs, but when a military person is handed over for theft, do you see
7 that? Do you know whether the persons you mentioned here were prosecuted
8 by the judicial organs of the Army of Yugoslavia.
9 A. From the chief of the police department I learned that some
10 persons who had been members of the reserve units of the army and who had
11 been brought in were later seen again in their own units. And when I
12 discussed this with the commander afterwards, I learned that they had, in
13 fact, been prosecuted and that criminal reports had been filed by the
14 appropriate organs, but that they remained part of their units until the
15 end of the aggression and that then they would be tried subsequently.
16 These were individual cases.
17 Q. Thank you. Mr. Filic, we heard testimony here from both
18 Prosecution and Defence witnesses, and one Prosecution witness stated
19 that when the aggression started at the exits from the town of Pristina
20 there was barbed wire at the check-points and that movement of citizens
21 was limited. Defence witnesses testifying here concerning the town of
22 Pristina denied these allegations. I would like to know whether you can
23 tell us something about this. Were there such measures, was barbed wire
25 A. I never saw barbed wire. I travelled between Pristina and
1 Urosevac very often after the 15th of April, I -- and I never saw any
2 barbed wire.
3 Q. Was movement prohibited for any citizen?
4 A. No, no one was prohibited from moving around.
5 Q. Thank you, Mr. Filic.
6 A. You're welcome.
7 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, I have no
8 further questions for this witness.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
10 Mr. Filic, you will now be cross-examined by the Prosecutor,
11 Mr. Stamp.
12 Mr. Stamp.
13 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Your Honours.
14 Cross-examination by Mr. Stamp:
15 Q. Mr. Filic, while we are on this document, P1996, can I just ask
16 you to look at what you said in respect to the VJ. And this is at page 7
17 of the B/C/S and that is page 9.
18 You said that: "VJ officers were behaving rather
19 incomprehensibly, and when a soldier is handed over to them for looting,
20 they set him free with the excuse that 'these are our men.'"
21 Is that what your investigations or your inquiries had revealed
22 to you as the chief of SUP Urosevac?
23 A. This expression, referring to our people, it refers to a specific
24 case we had. It was a dispute between a policeman and a group of
25 soldiers. It doesn't refer to persons who were brought in for theft. If
1 need be, I can describe briefly what this is about. When the commander
2 told me, Filic, there are men, let them go, we'll see, measures will be
3 taken. Can I explain what this was about?
4 Q. Please, go ahead.
5 A. A policeman from the police station was called by an acquaintance
6 of his, an Albanian who was in Macedonia. He was invited to come and
7 take a look at his house and see what state the house was in. The
8 Albanian asked him to do this. It was a friend of his from Macedonia.
9 When he came to that house he found a group of soldiers in that house who
10 started arguing with him, asking him, What are you doing here. We are
11 here now, and there was an argument, a heated discussion. And on his
12 return the policeman informed his superiors of this. I informed
13 Commander Jelacic, and he said, Well, let it go. They are men, maybe
14 they were drunk. So this expression, our men, refers to that situation,
15 not to situations where the military were brought in and later seen in
16 their units. As their superiors explained, they had had criminal reports
17 filed against them, they were being prosecuted, but they were not being
18 held in detention.
19 Q. So when you told all the chiefs of SUPs and the assistant
20 minister and General Lukic that our relation to the VJ are the same as
21 those of the other SUPs and there were complaints from the other SUPs and
22 that VJ officers behaved rather incomprehensibly when a soldier is handed
23 over to them for looting they set him free with the excuse, these are our
24 men, you were referring to that isolated incident that you just
1 A. Yes.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Aleksic.
3 Could you read the Serb. In English your answer does not make
4 any sense. So could you read the Serb so we can see if there's some
5 problem with the translation. Just read out what's written there on that
6 passage that Mr. Stamp has been quoting to you.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Relations with the Army of
8 Yugoslavia, the same as in the case of other SUPs. The officers of the
9 Army of Yugoslavia are behaving in a rather incomprehensible manner, and
10 when a soldier is handed over to them for looting they set him free with
11 the excuse that 'these are our men'" and so on.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, in the example you gave, there was no person
13 referred to by you as being arrested and handed over. Did that actually
14 happen, that someone was caught for this particular event by the -- the
15 event affecting the Macedonian -- or the Albanian, rather, who had been
16 in Macedonia? Was someone caught and handed over to the army?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no one was arrested. The
18 policeman went to see that Albanian's house to see what the --
19 JUDGE BONOMY: You've answered that. So what does this refer to,
20 when a soldier is handed over to them for looting, who are you referring
21 to in that statement?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Specifically I did not participate
23 in their arrest. I got this information from the superiors in the
24 police, that some persons who had been brought in were later seen in
25 their units. It was the practice to detain those people, if they were
2 JUDGE BONOMY: But a moment ago you told us that's not what this
3 was referring to.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that this expression, "these
5 are our men," does not refer to them. That was the expression my
6 commander used about those soldiers who argued with the policeman when he
7 went to visit that Albanian's house, not referring to the soldiers handed
8 over for looting but the person taking the minutes mixed this up.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stamp.
10 MR. STAMP:
11 Q. You spoke --
12 MR. STAMP: And if I could move on with your leave, Your Honours.
13 Q. You spoke that the media centre was based in the Grand Hotel
14 Pristina -- or you said that.
15 A. Not on the ground floor, it was on the first floor in the
16 Hotel Grand. He was upstairs on the first floor.
17 Q. Are you aware of security-related activities that were carried on
18 in the basement of the Grand Hotel?
19 A. I'm not aware of that. I'm not aware of any activities in the
20 basement of the Grand Hotel.
21 Q. Did you have an office at the media centre?
22 A. No, no. I never had an office there.
23 MR. STAMP: Your Honours, I wonder if this is a convenient time.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Stamp.
25 Mr. Filic, we have to have a break at this stage, that will be
1 for half an hour. Could you meanwhile please leave the courtroom with
2 the usher.
3 [The witness stands down]
4 JUDGE BONOMY: We shall resume at 11.15.
5 --- Recess taken at 10.45 a.m.
6 --- On resuming at 11.15 a.m.
7 [The witness takes the stand]
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stamp.
9 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Q. You spent a significant amount of time during your testimony in
11 chief discussing the MUP staff plan for 1999, the Pristina staff plan of
12 1999, that's P1074. Now, do these yearly plans that are -- that each SUP
13 is obliged to prepare normally cover --
14 MR. LUKIC: Sorry. It's not MUP staff plan.
15 MR. STAMP: I think I corrected myself, didn't I?
16 JUDGE BONOMY: It was corrected to Pristina staff plan. It's the
17 Pristina SUP plan that we're talking about.
18 MR. STAMP:
19 Q. The work-plan for the SUP Pristina of 1999. That plan covered
20 the routine operational matters of the SUP; is that correct?
21 A. The annual work-plan of the secretariat did not cover routine but
22 regular work within the secretariat that had to be done within the year.
23 Q. Very well --
24 A. And that covered work that remained unfinished in the previous
25 year, as we had seen in a number of examples.
1 Q. Thank you. Did it cover major anti-terrorist operations in which
2 large units of the MUP, for example, the PJP, would be engaged?
3 A. No, no, it did not.
4 Q. You also made a point that among other things it covered training
5 of MUP members and that training was within the regular system of
6 training within the MUP. Is it not true that in some areas when it came
7 to complex security-related police work, the MUP staff or members of the
8 MUP staff were involved in training policemen in the various SUPs in
10 A. At the ministry it was long-standing practice that every year
11 from the level of the ministry plans for advanced training and education
12 of policemen and other authorised officers be issued, and that covered
13 certain topics related to regular activities, topics regarding changing
14 legislation, et cetera. That was one segment. And another segment
15 covered, for instance, the training of PJP, the reserve force, et cetera.
16 All that came within regular training, not specifically linked to
17 anti-terrorist actions.
18 Q. Thank you. But was the MUP staff sometimes involved in training,
19 particularly when it was linked to complex security operations or
20 anti-terrorist operations?
21 A. One of the members of the staff was responsible for assisting in
22 the training of PJP. He also participated in organizing and performing
23 the training of operative pursuit groups because he was specialised in
24 that area, he was supposed to help the members of the secretariat in that
1 Q. Who was that?
2 A. To the best of my knowledge, it was Goran Radosavljevic as a
3 member of the staff.
4 MR. STAMP: Could we bring up P3120.
5 Q. Did Mr. Adamovic, I've forgotten his rank just now, but was he
6 also a member of the MUP staff that was involved in training police
8 A. Adamovic was a member of the MUP staff until the bombing of the
9 SUP Pristina building when he was injured, and then he was withdrawn from
10 the staff. His responsibility had been to coordinate regular work of the
11 police within the staff.
12 Q. What do you mean when you say it was to coordinate regular work
13 of the police within the staff?
14 A. I mean to say that along the line that goes towards secretariat
15 he extended all sorts of assistance, logistical, professional,
16 specialised when the secretariats asked for it or when such a need was
18 Q. We have before us the minutes of the MUP staff meeting for July
19 1998, that is P3120. And if we could move to page 2 of the -- of both
20 the English and the B/C/S. We see a description of the meeting, it was
21 held at the premises of the Pristina SUP and it is dealing with the
22 situation on the ground. And if we look at the other page we could see
23 the attendees, and you are one of those attendees, I think you see that.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You attended in what capacity?
1 A. I cannot remember exactly in which capacity, but I was not a
2 member of the staff. It's possible I was invited as a spokesman. I
3 really don't know exactly in what capacity, plus not all the members of
4 the MUP were here. This was some sort of narrow composition. The
5 meeting was led by Mijatovic and it was attended by a few people,
6 probably about some sort of agreement.
7 Q. I think you had said earlier that you were or you only attended
8 meetings of the staff in its expanded composition, but you will agree
9 with me --
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. But this is not such a meeting. This is what you describe as a
12 narrow composition of members.
13 A. Well, if we look further below, the minutes say that I said that
14 Bisercic would be coming early in the morning. They had probably invited
15 me to help them about the engagement of some SUP members to do some work
16 related to the staff. I think I say down below that Miroslav Bisercic
17 would attend, it was an analyst who was supposed to help the staff in
18 aggregating the information because there's Milorad Rajicic,
19 Dobrasin Krdzic, Rasko Milenkovic, all of these are members of SUP
20 Pristina, they were not members of the MUP staff.
21 Q. So it was probably that you were there in order to assist in
22 engaging MUP staff -- sorry, in engaging SUP staff for work on behalf of
23 the ministry staff?
24 A. Engaging certain employees of the secretariat, not the whole
25 staff of the SUP.
1 Q. Would employees of the secretariat frequently be engaged to carry
2 out engagements or carry out work on behalf of the MUP staff?
3 A. Well, some did, like Milorad Rajicic, who was in charge of
4 general affairs; Dobrasin Krdzic, who was a doctor; Rasko Milenkovic, who
5 was chief of the analysis section. All of those being logistical
6 services of the secretariat that catered to the staff in certain
8 Q. If you look at the minutes here we see that Dusko Adamovic is
9 discussing training and he says that training should be carried out in
10 the barracks. Can you read for me just for the translation what he says
11 about training.
12 A. Dusko Adamovic: "It had been planned that Vukovic should" --
13 Q. I'm sorry --
14 A. -- "deliver BRDs today and tomorrow and the training would be in
15 barracks" --
16 Q. What are BRDs?
17 A. Those are armoured vehicles that were received at that time for
18 the requirements of the PJP, they were received from the Army of
19 Yugoslavia. And Vukovic was the commander of that mechanised unit within
20 the PJP. He was the commanding officer of that unit.
21 Q. So this training was organized by the MUP staff?
22 A. This discussion about training, but Adamovic says that it had
23 been planned that Vukovic as the CO of that armoured mechanised unit
24 should perform the training within the perimeter of the barracks.
25 Q. Yes. And now that you see the document the question is this:
1 From your memory did the plan to deliver these vehicles to MUP Pristina
2 and to train PJP members in their use was something that was undertaken
3 by the MUP staff?
4 A. I don't know who decided that.
5 Q. While you were in Pristina SUP, did you meet with General Lukic?
6 A. I saw him at the staff, yes. I used to encounter him. The
7 chief's office was on the same floor as his. Of course I ran into him
8 from time to time.
9 Q. What was his role as commander of the MUP staff as far as you
10 understood it?
11 A. Well, to my understanding he was a leader of a sort of forward
12 working body of the ministry that was supposed to help the SUPs in Kosovo
13 and Metohija in some situations that were complicated security-wise. He
14 was supposed to monitor the situation in the area of the province, to
15 summarize the outcomes of all these events and incidents, and of course
16 it was convenient for the minister to have such a body and to have on his
17 desk every morning aggregated information, summaries of all
18 security-related incidents in that crisis area rather than receiving
19 seven different papers from secretariats in Kosovo.
20 Q. I think you said that you never saw any of the documents that set
21 up the staff or that designated the role of the staff. Is my memory
23 A. I have never seen the decision to set up the staff. Nobody ever
24 informed me of it.
25 Q. Well, you have just described what you thought was
1 General Lukic's role as chief of the staff. How did you arrive at that
2 understanding of his role?
3 A. Well, I had worked for years in SUP Pristina and I know what the
4 role of the staffs was since they started to operate. In hierarchy they
5 were not superior to secretariats, they could not issue them orders, they
6 could not assign employees, appoint them, or recall them or punish them.
7 I think I described this in my prior testimony.
8 Q. Let's look at one of the documents.
9 MR. STAMP: Could we look at P1505.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Before you move onto that can I be clear about one
11 thing, the SUP Pristina, did you report daily direct to the ministry in
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, sir.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: So the reports that you say were coordinated by
15 General Lukic were also being sent directly in any event to the ministry?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The reports that the staff
17 aggregated for all secretariats from Kosovo went up to the minister, in
18 that aggregated form.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: But you've just told me that also SUP Pristina
20 reported directly to the ministry in Belgrade.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, but about the events in the
22 area of SUP Pristina.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: So -- so your report was also sent to
24 General Lukic so that he could combine it, the information in it, with
25 the information in reports from the other six SUPs and submit a combined
1 report to the ministry also; is that correct?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct. The daily report from SUP
3 Pristina went on parallel tracks to the ministry and to the staff. It
4 went to the staff so that it can be combined together with all the other
5 reports from other secretariats, and it went to the MUP as part of
6 regular reporting.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
8 Mr. Stamp.
9 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Your Honours.
10 Q. This is a decision of the minister, Vlajko Stojiljkovic, on the
11 16th of June, 1998. Are you saying that you have not seen this decision
12 before, this document before?
13 A. I have not.
14 Q. Were you not shown this document during preparation for
16 A. No, no, I have not seen this document before.
17 Q. It says at paragraph 2 that: "The staff is tasked with planning,
18 organizing, and managing the activities and use of the organizational
19 units of the ministry, both the sent and the attached units, and
20 suppressing terrorism in Kosovo and Metohija.
21 "Also, the staff is tasked with planning, organizing, directing,
22 and coordinating the activities of the organizational units of the
23 ministry in Kosovo and Metohija in carrying out complex security
25 I understand that you haven't seen this document, but is that,
1 what you see there in paragraph 2, your understanding as to what the role
2 of the staff was?
3 A. Well, I don't know because I have not seen this document before.
4 Why would it plan and organize anti-terrorist actions if such a plan had
5 already been adopted at state level to suppress terrorism and perform
6 anti-terrorist actions. What additional role could be played by the
7 staff in planning anti-terrorist actions?
8 Q. What plan had been adopted at state level that you speak of?
9 A. The plan that I mentioned before in my evidence. I said there
10 was a plan to carry out anti-terrorist actions by the MUP units and units
11 of the Army of Yugoslavia from June or July 1998.
12 Q. You see here immediately before item 2 it says that: "The
13 expanded staff shall also include chiefs of the secretariats for internal
14 affairs ..."
15 You were never told that this body in its expanded composition
16 would include the chiefs of the SUPs?
17 A. I was not told. At that time I was deputy chief, but I don't
18 know about this and I said in my prior evidence that even when I was
19 appointed as chief nobody told me that I would be a member of the staff
20 in its expanded composition.
21 Q. Is that something that is regular or normal in your experience in
22 the MUP, that formal, written orders of the minister would be ignored and
23 not communicated to those who were to carry out the orders? Is that your
25 A. That's not true, that I don't feature in this document and nobody
1 submitted or copied this document to me. I was not in possession of it
2 and according to this document I was not a member of the staff. It was
3 not the practice, generally speaking.
4 Q. Well, let's look at P1811, this one is dated --
5 JUDGE BONOMY: According to the document you became a member of
6 the staff because you became chief of SUP.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I said, that even when I was the
8 head of SUP no one forwarded any such document of that nature advising me
9 that I am being made a member of the expanded staff.
10 MR. STAMP: Let's look at P1811.
11 Q. This is a similar order and this one again is signed by the
12 minister, but this is the 31st of May, 1999, by that time you were chief
13 of SUP Urosevac. And this is effectively a renewal of the last order I
14 just showed you, and here again it says in the first paragraph after the
15 names are listed, so if the -- we could scroll down a little bit on the
16 B/C/S copy and the English copy on e-court.
17 "Chiefs of secretariats of the interior and of the RDB centres
18 and departments in AP Kosovo and Metohija are hereby designated members
19 of the staff in its expanded composition."
20 Now, this is an order of the minister. Are you saying it was
21 never communicated to you that you would be a member of the staff?
22 A. It was never communicated to me. This was towards the end of the
23 war and just before we pulled out. I never received such a document.
24 Q. Well, I'd like to go back to that question I asked you. This
25 again is an order duly made according to the law and the constitution by
1 the minister. Have you in your experience had other situations where
2 orders of this nature of the minister dealing with the -- a serious
3 issue, counter-terrorism, is not communicated to those who were supposed
4 to carry out the order? Have you ever experienced that in any other
6 A. No, I never came across such a situation in my career.
7 Q. You said today that you were invited to meetings of the staff in
8 its expanded composition. We see here in this document that as chief of
9 the secretariat you were designated a member of the staff in its expanded
11 MR. LUKIC: Excuse me, Your Honour, I would like to have the
12 reference for this that the witness said that he was called to the
13 meetings of the staff in its expanded composition.
14 MR. STAMP: At page 21, paragraph 7 of the transcript -- sorry,
15 page 21, paragraph 7 of the transcript:
16 "Q. Did you attend any meetings held at the staff?
17 "A. I did attend a number of meetings held at the MUP staff,
18 those meetings that were to have an expanded composition where some
19 officials of the ministry were visiting."
20 Q. Yes, Witness, when you used the term "expanded composition" in
21 your evidence, weren't you referring to the composition of the staff as
22 designated by the minister in his order?
23 A. It may be a mistranslation. I said that I attended the meetings
24 of the staff when the minister was in attendance and when there was an
25 expanded number of officials attended, chiefs of OUPs attended some
1 meetings, commanders of police stations, and so on and so forth. I
2 didn't say the extended staff per se, but in its extended composition,
3 greater numbers of officials, although they were not members of the
4 staff. The minister simply wanted to have a working meeting with a
5 greater number of officials in order to analysis the situation in the
7 Q. Could I, since I remember now, request a re-translation of that
8 passage, just those lines.
9 THE INTERPRETER: Could someone please read it out in B/C/S and
10 then we can interpret.
11 MR. STAMP: In due course. I don't think --
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, what is required is that we ask CLSS to
13 listen to the B/C/S tape and provide a revised translation of page 21,
14 lines 5 to 8 of the English transcript. Thank you.
15 Mr. Stamp.
16 MR. STAMP:
17 Q. Didn't General Lukic issue tasks to the SUP chiefs?
18 A. I don't understand the question. What tasks?
19 Q. Any task at all having to do with their work. Do you know of
20 General Lukic issuing any tasks to the SUP chiefs?
21 A. During the war when I was the chief of Urosevac SUP, he issued
22 tasks by way of instructional dispatches on how to behave towards
23 civilians and what measures to take in order to protect them against
24 crime perpetrators. There were some instructional dispatches of that
25 nature having to do with coordination of tasks at hand rather than
1 complete sets of tasks.
2 Q. Well, let's look at P1989. This is the minutes of the meeting
3 with senior police officials in Kosovo on the 4th of April, 1999. And if
4 we could look at item 2 which is at page 3 of the B/C/S, also page 3 of
5 the English, we see in the minutes: "Forthcoming tasks." And
6 Sreten Lukic, the head of the ministry, speaks thereafter. Without us
7 going back to the first page I'll just indicate to you that the -- this
8 was a meeting that was attended by all the chiefs of secretariats, PJP
9 departments, SAJ commanders, and the JSO command. And we see
10 General Lukic here issuing tasks, and this goes well beyond dispatches to
11 protect civilians. And the last task he issues, which is at page 4 of
12 the English, is a directive to the secretariat chiefs and unit commanders
13 that they must report to the staff. The document speaks for itself.
14 What I'd like to ask you: Under what authority could
15 General Lukic issue these tasks?
16 A. I wasn't present at this meeting of the 4th of April. I wasn't
17 the chief of SUP at that time. I cannot comment these tasks. We can see
18 from the minutes that certain tasks were issued, though.
19 Q. Very well. I understand you weren't the chief of the SUP, but
20 you did attend some meetings as deputy even from 1998. Very well, may I
21 then move on to ask you about P1996. I think this is one in which you
22 were a member --
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. -- a member -- sorry, a chief of a SUP. P1996, the staff minutes
25 of the 7th of May, 1999. Briefly, if we can confirm the date there on
1 the first page, 7th of May, 1999. This is a meeting that Mr. Sainovic
2 attended, and you see the meeting was chaired by General Lukic.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And I think you will recall that was a meeting that you attended;
5 is that correct?
6 A. That is correct.
7 Q. If we look at page 10 of the English document, which I think is
8 page 9 of the B/C/S -- page 8 to 9 of the B/C/S, where it says: "The
9 head of staff Major-General Sreten Lukic contributed to the discussion as
10 follows ..."
11 And he issues several instructions. Again, the document speaks
12 for itself. The question is this: Weren't you obliged, weren't you
13 obliged to carry out those instructions issued by General Lukic or were
14 you free to disobey them at your will?
15 A. We were obliged, by all means, yes, to carry out all instructions
16 pertaining to regular tasks. It is clearly stated here that all cases
17 with grave circumstances and consequences must be processed legally.
18 General Lukic as the head of the staff had the role of organizing such
19 meetings whereby senior officials would attend as well. He would chair
20 the session and participate in discussions as well as provide conclusions
21 at the end of each meeting.
22 Q. And in addition to that, while we are on this document, is it
23 correct that the SUP plans for anti-terrorist activity in the field had
24 to be approved by the MUP staff Pristina?
25 A. While I was the chief of the SUP, I didn't draft any
1 anti-terrorist plans and I didn't send any to the head of staff for
3 Q. Well, I'm going to show you a passage and ask you the question
4 again. If we look at page 11 of the English, which is page 9 of the
5 B/C/S. Should I indicate before we get to page 11, if one looks at the
6 bottom of page 10 we will see that this is the assistant minister
7 Lieutenant-General Stevanovic, who is recorded as speaking at page 11.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Move on to page 11 now, please.
9 MR. STAMP:
10 Q. And you will see he says: "After the end of some of the larger
11 actions such as the 'Budakovo-Jezerce' one, each SUP will be expected to
12 work independently in organizing anti-terrorist actions in their own
13 areas. The plan must be approved by the staff and will be carried out
14 with manoeuvre detachments."
15 Now, this is at a meeting that you attended. Does that not
16 remind you that the anti-terrorist plans that the individual SUPs might
17 formulate had to be approved by the MUP staff in Pristina?
18 A. Here Assistant Minister Obrad Stevanovic participated in the
19 discussion. He wanted to let the chiefs know that there will be no
20 significant anti-terrorist actions in the future and that smaller-scale
21 actions can be planned at the level of secretariats, that they can
22 execute with their own forces. The assistant minister was in Pristina at
23 the time and he could only address the MUP staff in Pristina, that he
24 could include so that eventually he would be able to receive and review
25 such plans. He was there with some other officials such as
1 Vlastimir Djordjevic and others; however, in the area of Urosevac there
2 was no need for me for any actions of that sort. I didn't plan any and I
3 didn't send any such plans to the staff for approval.
4 Q. Yeah, but we'll get to Urosevac shortly, but if you could return
5 to my question. Don't you now remember that in making plans for
6 anti-terrorist operations the SUP chiefs or the chiefs of the PJP
7 detachments or units would have to submit them to the MUP staff for
8 approval. Don't you recall that?
9 A. I don't. I didn't make such plans.
10 Q. The assistant minister is speaking of the Budakovo-Jezerce
11 action. Where was this action?
12 A. Budakovo territorially speaking fell under Prizren SUP; Jezerce
13 was under Urosevac SUP. It is the area of the mountains around Jezersko
14 which fell under the competence of both SUPs, Urosevac and Prizren.
15 Q. Weren't Urosevac PJP units involved in this action?
16 A. There was a PJP company that participated in the action. There
17 was a company from Urosevac and from Gnjilane. As for the Urosevac area,
18 I am familiar with that and they acted accordingly to the joint plan that
19 they were handed down from the 124th Brigade. We had no part to play in
20 that as a secretariat.
21 Q. This PJP unit from your secretariat participated in the action
22 and the extent of your knowledge is that they participated in the action.
23 You don't know or you didn't see the plan as chief of the secretariat?
24 A. I didn't see the plan of that action. It was a larger-scale
25 action covering a large area, and the commander must have received his
1 task for his axis from the 124th Brigade; however, I didn't see that.
2 Q. However, the role of the PJP units in that large operation, one
3 that covered more than one SUP territory, was it not something that had
4 to be approved by the MUP staff? Withdrawn.
5 I'll put the question this way: Various PJP units from more than
6 one SUP are involved in what you have described as a large action. Which
7 MUP entity in Kosovo was responsible for coordinating and commanding
9 A. Except for the PJP units of the ministry, as far as I know, there
10 were some VJ units participating as well. As to who had drafted this
11 joint plan, I don't know. I suppose this was done in Pristina in
12 coordination between the army and the police.
13 Q. So basically when General Stevanovic says that SUP plans must be
14 approved by the staff, you have no experience of the ministry staff
15 approving these plans?
16 A. I don't. I didn't draft such plans and I didn't send them for
17 approval. I have no knowledge of that nature.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: There are two separate matters here. There are
19 the smaller actions which this document said had to be approved by the
20 staff. There's also reference to the larger actions and as an example
21 Budakovo-Jezerce is given. You say that that involved a unit from
22 Urosevac and you were asked the question: Which MUP entity was
23 responsible for coordinating and commanding the PJP units involved in
24 that? Now, what is the answer to that question?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know exactly what entity,
1 someone from the MUP or the VJ. I wasn't privy to that. I know that in
2 my area there were units from Urosevac and Gnjilane, but I wasn't privy
3 to any action details and who chose the tasks, who planned it, and so on
4 and so forth.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stamp.
6 MR. STAMP: I'd like to show you another document to the same
7 effect, this is P1993, the minutes of the MUP staff for the 11th of May,
9 Q. And again we have the assistant minister addressing a meeting and
10 this is a meeting, if you look at the first page there without reading
11 all the names, you see many of the leaders of the MUP staff as well as
12 the unit commanders, various PJP unit commanders. And at page 13 of the
13 English, which corresponds -- I'm afraid I don't have the reference in
14 B/C/S here. I'll read what Lieutenant-General Stevanovic says at page 13
15 of the English, and this is following on from the previous meeting where
16 he spoke about large operation and small operations. He says: "Now we
17 have to organize smaller actions or plan -- conduct closely actions in
18 minor positions. Every SUP and PJP will establish a priority list of
19 anti-terrorist actions with detailed plans which will be approved by the
21 Now, is what the assistant minister is recorded here as saying
22 meaningless or don't you now recall that the SUPs had to submit their
23 plans to the ministry staff Pristina for approval?
24 A. Probably if secretariats had such activities in their areas they
25 would have to deliver that to the assistant minister for approval, but I
1 did not have such situations in my SUP area.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stamp, this document appears to have only nine
3 pages in English. Can we clarify what you're actually referring to?
4 MR. STAMP: Page 13 in the English and we have P1993.
5 [Prosecution counsel confer]
6 MR. STAMP: I think the problem is that I have a different
7 translation than the one in e-court. It is possible that the translation
8 in e-court was at some point in time substituted.
9 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
10 MR. STAMP: And that is at page 7 in e-court.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Let's have page 7 then on the screen.
12 MR. STAMP: Which is page 6 in B/C/S.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Filic, it's been pointed out to you that this
14 document obliges every SUP to establish a priority list of anti-terrorist
15 actions with detailed plans. You're saying you don't remember this
16 requirement; is that your position?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At this meeting, Mr. President, I
18 did not attend. This was a meeting with the -- with the senior officers
19 of the police units. I did not have a PJP detachment on my territory
20 which was sent from elsewhere.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: That's not what we're looking at, Mr. Filic.
22 We're looking at a provision that says: "Every SUP ... will establish a
23 priority list of anti-terrorist actions with detailed plans which will be
24 approved by the" MUP. Now, you're saying that that requirement was never
25 communicated to you; is that correct?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it was never communicated to me
2 because my superior officer was not at that meeting. I wasn't there.
3 There was not a single detachment on the territory of my secretariat. It
4 was only those in whose areas there were such detachments who attended.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: So that you understand the reason that these
6 questions are asked, this is one of a whole series of documents that
7 we're seeing where your evidence is inconsistent with the document, and
8 it's important that we're clear what is the actual situation in your
9 knowledge when we try to see what these documents amount to and
10 understand them.
11 Mr. Stamp.
12 MR. STAMP:
13 Q. And I refer to these documents also because we have had testimony
14 before the Court that you were actually involved, personally involved, in
15 making these plans and preparations. Do you know brigade Commander Jelic
16 or did you know him in 1999?
17 A. Yes, I did.
18 Q. He was commander of the brigade whose territory corresponded to
19 your SUP, the SUP that you were chief of, Urosevac; is that correct?
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. I think out of fairness that you should have an opportunity to
22 comment on what you [sic] have said, and this is at transcript 19084.
23 "Q. We were speaking about your meetings with the chief of the
24 Urosevac SUP. You told us that the chief of the Urosevac SUP during the
25 war was Mr. Janicevic, is that correct," and he said Janicevic was the
1 chief. And he goes on to say that he was later replaced by
2 Colonel Bozidar Filic, that's you.
3 "Q. And you had interactions and meetings with both of these
5 "A. Yes, in the period when they were chiefs I was in contact
6 with them and attended meetings with them."
7 Is it true that you attended meetings with Colonel Jelic?
8 A. I would see Colonel Jelic at his command post quite often, but as
9 to my participating in developing plans with him that's incorrect. I did
10 not draw up any plans together with him for anti-terrorist actions.
11 Q. Well, seeing him is one thing; meeting him is another. The
12 question is: Did you have meetings with him during the war?
13 A. What sort of meetings? I don't understand. I couldn't hold
14 working meetings on behalf of his command nor could he do so on behalf of
15 the secretariat. I had working meetings with my superiors, he had
16 working meetings with his. We met to exchange information, experiences,
17 discuss problems, and so on.
18 Q. He said at transcript 18958 to 18959 that when he received a
19 decision or an order from the command of the Pristina Corps, he would
20 begin planning for the execution of the task. In the course of his
21 planning he would carry out coordination with the chief of the SUP. Did
22 you meet with him for the purpose of planning? Well, he's saying you met
23 with him for the purpose of planning these operations. Is that not
25 MR. LUKIC: I have to -- I would object --
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
3 MR. LUKIC: I think that it should be precisely put to the
4 witness on which period of time Mr. Jelic referenced this part of his
5 statement, whether it was with Mr. Janicevic or with Mr. Filic.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stamp.
7 MR. STAMP: The evidence of the witness Jelic has to be taken
8 like evidence in general in context. He was asked about meetings with
9 the SUP chiefs, and he said that he met with both of them, first
10 Janicevic and later when he was replaced by Bozidar Filic, he met with
12 MR. LUKIC: Yes, but that page was --
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic, let Mr. Stamp finish, please.
14 MR. LUKIC: That page is approximately --
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Just a moment.
16 Yes, Mr. Stamp.
17 MR. STAMP: So this is a matter of an interpretation of the
18 evidence. The witness is clearly -- the witness Jelic is clearly stating
19 that in coordinating and planning his operations he met with the chief of
20 the SUP Urosevac.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: What day is that evidence?
22 MR. STAMP: This is the 26th of November, 19 -- sorry, 2007.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: No, it can't be the 26th of November if it's
24 18958. 25th -- 23rd perhaps?
25 MR. STAMP: I have the 26th here.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: 18958 is on the 23rd if that's the page you're
2 referring to.
3 MR. STAMP: The 23rd ...
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Filic, do you -- Mr. Filic, do you understand
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. We have an issue to make a decision
8 about here, and you should not hear the discussion. Would you take the
9 earphones off, please.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I'll do that.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
12 Now, Mr. Lukic, what is it you wish to add?
13 MR. LUKIC: Exactly what you added, Your Honour, it's -- it
14 wasn't in the same context, it was the other day. And I think that
15 Mr. Janicevic will come here and testify as well hopefully and --
16 JUDGE BONOMY: But I'm not adding anything. I'm just looking at
17 the page that Mr. --
18 MR. LUKIC: Yeah, it shouldn't be put to this witness that he
19 planned. It should be asked whether he planned or not because there were
20 two SUP chiefs, and this gentleman spent only short period of time in
21 that city or in that SUP.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: I take it what you're saying is that it's not
23 clear with whom Jelic said he was having meetings.
24 MR. LUKIC: Well, he spent more than one year in that area with
25 Janicevic and only a few -- couple of days with this gentleman, so --
1 JUDGE BONOMY: But the position is not clear, is that it?
2 MR. LUKIC: Yes, it is.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.
4 Now, let's go back.
5 MR. LUKIC: And it should be maybe clarified which year not only
6 which ...
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, Mr. Stamp, the question can be put on the
8 basis I think of what you say, that this is the evidence of the witness
9 and then -- of Jelic, and then you can ask this witness did he have any
10 such meetings with Jelic.
11 MR. STAMP: Indeed.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: And I don't see anything wrong with that. So we
13 can resume.
14 Mr. Filic, we've dealt with that matter. We can resume the
15 evidence now.
16 Mr. Stamp.
17 MR. STAMP:
18 Q. Did you have any meetings with Colonel Jelic for the purpose of
19 planning joint military action?
20 A. No, I did not, Mr. Prosecutor.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Can I ask you then what did happen when you met
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We spoke about current issues,
24 about regular activities, others were present, other officers. I usually
25 went to see him together with the chief of the police department or
1 detachment. We never had any such meeting concerning planning.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you give me a concrete example of what you
3 actually discussed?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The situation in the town, the
5 current situation.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: That's meaningless to me, I'm afraid --
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] About controlling the road leading
8 to Skopje, where there were constant terrorist group activities and
9 attacks on both military and civilian vehicles passing along that road.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: What would you discuss about it? You wouldn't
11 presumably simply be exchanging or passing the time of day and saying how
12 dreadful this all was. What would be the reason for you to discuss these
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The general situation,
15 Mr. President, the general situation. We had to meet to exchange
16 information and so on.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Why? For what purpose?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, there were joint
19 activities --
20 JUDGE BONOMY: You've just told us --
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- of the army and the MUP.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: You've just told us you didn't plan joint
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't plan them, but such
25 activities were being carried out in the area of Jezerska Planina, for
1 example, the Jezerce mountains, where his units were there from the
2 direction of Strbac, the military territorial detachment, so there was a
3 necessity for us to meet.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: So you are discussing the joint actions that the
5 MUP and the VJ are involved in; do I understand you correctly?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We discussed how the actions were
7 proceeding, but I didn't participate in the planning of those actions.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: You see, that takes me back to the same question:
9 Why are you discussing how the actions are proceeding?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, because the action was being
11 conducted on the territory of my secretariat, so of course I was
12 interested to learn how the -- how it was coming along. I had to be
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Why? I don't want to put words in your mouth.
15 What -- what were you going to do -- what were you going to do with the
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because I was responsible for the
18 territory of my secretariat, so I had to know what was going on on the
19 territory. I don't know if I'm failing to understand your question,
20 but ...
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Why does a man in charge of the territory want to
22 know what's going on there? He wants to know for a purpose, what is the
23 purpose? It's a simple question.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I had to inform my superiors
25 about all events on my territory.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: So you were a postbox, were you? This is a war
2 that's going on at the time that we're talking about.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: And you're just finding out things so you can
5 report them to somebody else; is that what you're telling us?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Basically, yes.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you.
8 Mr. Stamp.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't participate in the war
11 MR. STAMP:
12 Q. At least one of the PJP units that was subordinated to your SUP
13 was involved in ongoing combat actions with Colonel Jelic's brigade;
14 isn't that correct?
15 A. I don't understand the question. What combat action? What
16 specific action?
17 Q. Anti-terrorist actions.
18 A. During my stay in the territory of Urosevac, my company -- I beg
19 your pardon? My PJP company participated in an anti-terrorist action in
20 the area of Jezerska Planina or Jezerce mountains, which I've just
21 mentioned, and units of the Army of Yugoslavia, the military territorial
22 detachment also participated in that action.
23 Q. And those VJ units were commanded by Colonel Jelic, correct?
24 A. It was the commander of the military territorial detachment to
25 the best of my knowledge from the area, and he contacted the commander of
1 the PJP company.
2 Q. Didn't the military territorial detachment, wasn't it
3 subordinated to the brigade, to Jelic's brigade?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. So when you met with Jelic, didn't you discuss with him what your
6 PJP unit, those men that you were responsible for, were doing? Did you
7 discuss with him what was the plan for your PJP unit in the activity that
8 they were engaged in?
9 A. He didn't give me any details about the plans according to which
10 the terrorist actions were conducted.
11 Q. Could we have a look at P1976, order of the 15th of April, 1999,
12 for routing and destroying the STS in the area of Jezerce.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And you will see it describes in the first paragraph the enemy
15 and it speaks about the forces has increased -- that's: "STS forces have
16 increased in the general area of Mount Jezersko, more precisely the areas
17 of: Budakovo, Jezerce, Nerodimlje, Petrovo, and Plesina."
18 Are all those areas within the area of your SUP?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Which ones are not?
21 A. I don't see the paragraph very well, but Budakovo was not. This
22 document doesn't look all right.
23 Q. Yes, we -- we'll get to that, but Jezerce, Nerodimlje, Petrovo,
24 and Plesina are areas within your SUP zone, aren't they?
25 A. Yes, yes.
1 Q. And if we look at page 2 in the English, it corresponds to page
2 1, I think, in the B/C/S. It says: "The Pristina Corps with
3 reinforcements and armed non-Siptar population of Kosovo and Metohija
4 supports the MUP forces in routing and destroying the STS in the area of
6 "Task: Support MUP forces in blocking, routing, and destroying
7 the STS in the general area of the villages of Jezerce and Budakovo."
8 And on page 2 of the B/C/S, which is page 4 of the English, I
9 just want to remind you, you will see a heading: "Readiness."
10 Readiness, the 23rd of April, 1999, so this was while you were --
11 while you had been installed as chief of the SUP Urosevac for
12 approximately a week. Weren't you aware of this operation? Is this the
13 operation you were discussing earlier?
14 A. Well, that was the operation, yes, I knew it was going to be
15 carried out on the territory of the secretariat, or rather, when the
16 operation began I learned that it was being carried out because it was on
17 the territory of the SUP of Urosevac. That's where it was carried out.
18 Q. So it indicates here that it began sometime around the 23rd of
19 April, 1999, and the document is on the 15th of April, 1999. Weren't you
20 aware of the plan for this operation?
21 A. No, not until the operation had started. When my PJP company was
22 engaged, the chief of the police department informed me that they had
23 been engaged in the action.
24 Q. How many people were in your PJP company that was involved in
25 this action?
1 A. The company had about 130 men.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stamp, can you find a suitable place to
3 interrupt, please.
4 MR. STAMP: Yes, Your Honour. May I just ask one question
5 before --
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.
7 MR. STAMP:
8 Q. The document that I just showed you, had you ever seen this
9 document before, the document that's on the screen there?
10 A. No. No, I hadn't seen it before.
11 MR. STAMP: Perhaps this is a convenient time, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
13 Mr. Filic, we need to break again, this time for an hour. Could
14 you again please leave the courtroom with the usher, and we shall resume
15 at 1.45.
16 [The witness stands down]
17 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.48 p.m.
18 --- On resuming at 1.46 p.m.
19 [The witness takes the stand]
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stamp.
21 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Your Honours.
22 Q. Last you told me that you had never seen this order. This is an
23 order which emanates from the Joint Command. Had you during 1998 or 1999
24 heard of a body called the Joint Command?
25 A. I heard of the term Joint Command much later during a proceedings
1 against Milosevic.
2 Q. Very well. Were the SUPs -- well, I think you said that the SUPs
3 were required to report on a daily basis to the MUP staff.
4 A. That is correct.
5 Q. And these reports would include information about crimes that
6 were committed, that is, serious crimes that were committed within the
7 area of the SUPs?
8 A. The same reports went to the ministry and to the staff in
9 relation to all security events or events important for security which
10 took place during any 24-hour period.
11 Q. Do you recall that General Lukic made a specific order or issued
12 a specific order that you should report in particular about criminal
14 A. I don't remember exactly, but there were instructions in place
15 concerning these new types of crime which began occurring in the wartime
16 conditions, and the request was to inform both the ministry and the
18 Q. Okay. During 1999 General Lukic was the most senior member of
19 the MUP that was posted -- that had his office in Kosovo and Metohija,
20 was he not?
21 A. Yes, as the head of the staff; however, even more senior
22 officials came during the war such as assistant minister, chiefs of
24 Q. Yes, yes. We understand that. If -- or what would his
25 responsibility be, that is, General Lukic's responsibility be should he
1 become aware of police officers committing serious crimes like murder?
2 A. It was under the competence of the secretariat in the field to
3 undertake measures promptly against such policemen and to inform both the
4 ministry and the staff. Mr. Lukic, in my understanding, did not have
5 direct authority to take measures in such cases; it lay with the chiefs
6 of secretariats and regional SUPs.
7 Q. But he didn't have direct authority to take the measures, but did
8 he not have authority to direct that measures be taken and that reports
9 about the measures taken be made to him?
10 A. Certainly. As I said before, there were instructional dispatches
11 on the part of the staff stating that measures should be timely and that
12 both the staff and the ministry need to be advised of the measures taken.
13 Q. If I could move to something else. During the course of 1999 you
14 were both the MUP spokesman and deputy chief for Pristina. Were you in
15 any of those capacities engaged in disarming or collecting weapons from
16 members of the Kosovo Albanian population?
17 A. Towards the end of the anti-terrorist operations in 1998, or
18 rather, towards the end of September that year, some measures were taken
19 in order to collect the weapons that Albanians possessed illegally,
20 specifically I participated in one of such actions in terms of
21 distributing pamphlets that were thrown out of a helicopter. We were
22 trying to invite Albanians to hand-over their illegal weapons and to
23 return to their homes. We were trying to tell them that they can live
24 freely and that should they surrender their weapons no legal measures
25 would be taken against them. That was my particular role.
1 Q. And just about the same time in 1998, were RPOs created or set up
2 and the personnel of those RPOs issued arms by the MUP?
3 A. Reserve police squads, to my knowledge, were created during July
4 1998 when there were large-scale terrorist actions, in particular in the
5 area of Orahovac, whereby many Serbs were kidnapped from their villages
6 around Orahovac. That is when RPOs began being formed.
7 Q. And they were formed, were they not, by an order or as a result
8 of an order issued by General Lukic, do you recall that?
9 A. The decision on the forming of RPOs, I didn't see that, but there
10 was a dispatch in circulation after that sent by the staff to the
11 secretariats with certain instructions on how to form those squads.
12 Q. Well, perhaps you could identify for us.
13 MR. STAMP: Could we look at P2804. The next page in B/C/S,
15 Q. Is that the dispatch issued by General Lukic and the MUP staff
16 Kosovo for the organization of these reserve police units?
17 A. Yes, that is the dispatch pertaining to reserve police squads.
18 Q. Who armed them?
19 A. The reserve police squads were formed out of reserve members of
20 the police and the VJ. The VJ members were armed by the military and the
21 police members by the police.
22 Q. What type of weapons were they given?
23 A. Mostly semi-automatic rifles and the odd automatic rifle here and
24 there, but I don't know how many exactly. Mostly those were
25 semi-automatic rifles.
1 Q. And they remained under the command of the SUPs I take it? At
2 least those armed by the MUP.
3 A. They were organized in every village. Those squads did not have
4 their facilities per se. People stayed at home and they were simply
5 issued with weapons. In case of need or any attack by terrorists on the
6 village, their task was to organize a defence and defend their homes.
7 The most experienced reserve member locally would be designated the
8 commander and he was supposed to take care of their discipline, conduct,
9 et cetera.
10 Q. And they were trained as well by the MUP?
11 A. I don't know. Certain officers within the OUPs of the police
12 were in charge within the SUPs to monitor the conduct of those members.
13 I don't know exactly who trained them, though.
14 Q. But you will agree with me if we look at this document we see
15 that General Lukic or the staff orders that they should carry through the
16 combat training plan in accordance with the plan that has been delivered
17 to them. And if we look at page 2 in the English we see further
18 discussion of the training plan.
19 A. That is correct.
20 Q. And it is --
21 A. It says that there was an obligation to train them.
22 Q. Yes. And there are various plans?
23 A. I don't know about those plans. As I say, I wasn't privy to that
24 since other people were in charge of that.
25 MR. STAMP: Can I call up P2803.
1 Q. And while it is coming up, can you recall how many of them there
2 were in Pristina while you were there, how many members of these RPOs?
3 A. I can't tell you an exact figure, but approximately rather. Did
4 you mean the number of members or squads?
5 Q. How many members -- or perhaps we could look at the document,
6 and -- this is a report of the 16th of February, 1999, by Captain
7 Blagoje Pesic to the MUP staff.
8 MR. STAMP: If we could move to page 2 of both documents.
9 Q. As I was saying, it's a report of the 16th of February, 1999, by
10 Colonel Blagoje Pesic to the MUP staff. Who was Blagoje Pesic in 1999,
11 16th of February, 1999, what was his role? He was --
12 MR. LUKIC: Just one thing, I'm sorry.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic.
14 MR. LUKIC: We don't have, I think, this document notified. That
15 can be checked.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stamp.
17 MR. STAMP: I am in the process of checking. I believe it was --
18 ought to have been notified and I see we have P2804 and P2805. I
19 probably made an error and put P2805 instead of P2803. Very well --
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Just hold on a second.
21 Mr. Lukic, can you cope with the matter or is it causing -- will
22 it cause a particular problem?
23 MR. LUKIC: I just wanted to notify Your Honours. My learned
24 friend was sometimes lenient for our delays, so I wouldn't object
1 JUDGE BONOMY: There you have it, Mr. Stamp. You can continue.
2 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Your Honours.
3 And thank you to learned counsel.
4 Q. Yes. Who was Blagoje Pesic at that time?
5 A. Blagoje Pesic, captain, was an officer with the police department
6 of the SUP in Pristina. He was in charge of police work in the
7 department. In addition, once the squads had been formed, he was in
8 charge of that as well.
9 Q. If we take a look at page 7 -- sorry, page 4 in the English, page
10 4 before page 7, please, which I think corresponds to 3 in the B/C/S --
11 pages 2 to 3 in the B/C/S. We should perhaps go to page 2 in the B/C/S.
12 You see here that he says that there are 255 reserve police
13 stations. Is that -- does that conform to your memory of how many there
14 were in Kosovo at the time?
15 A. Approximately, given the number of Serb villages around Kosovo
16 and those which were ethnically mixed, this figure strikes me as correct.
17 Q. And in Pristina where you were there were, if we look at the
18 table --
19 A. In Pristina --
20 Q. Yes.
21 A. There were 48, according to the table, Pesic's table.
22 Q. There were 48 present -- representatives of 48 were present and
23 seven were absent.
24 A. Yes, seven.
25 Q. And do you see -- if we could go to page -- the next page in the
1 B/C/S, do you see at item 6 it refers to Urosevac. Do you recall that
2 there were approximately 39 of them in Urosevac?
3 A. Approximately, yes. The police officer mentioned processed the
4 data -- well, I suppose.
5 Q. And if we could have a look at page 7 of the English. I think
6 that is page 5 in the B/C/S, he has a breakdown of the weapons issued.
7 Total is 64.080. Do you see that?
8 A. I do, and right-hand table.
9 Q. And just from your memory, you recall that in your -- in Pristina
10 SUP there were 5.313 weapons issued?
11 A. I cannot comment this piece of information. The figure strikes
12 me as too high, but I really can't say. In relation to the number of
13 reserve police squads, this figure is disproportionate.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: How many men were normally in a squad?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Depending on the size of village,
16 there were large villages like Gracanica and Lipljan, the figure there
17 could reach as many as 100, but there were many smaller villages in which
18 there would be 25 to 30 people who were armed by the ministry. According
19 to this figure, each squad should have had at least 100 or more members.
20 MR. STAMP:
21 Q. Well, do you have any recollection as to how many sets were
22 issued in Pristina while you were there, that is, up until the 15th of
24 A. I can't say. The person who drafted the report was in charge of
25 it. This figure is just unrealistic to me.
1 Q. And you see at item 6 in the table the number of RPOs for
2 Urosevac, it's represented here as 36 and there were 1.928 --
3 A. And nine.
4 Q. I'm sorry? I'm afraid I don't understand what you're referring
5 to when you say "nine."
6 A. I didn't understand that.
7 Q. Very well. Do the figures here that you see for Urosevac, 36
8 RPOs and 1.928 weapons sets issued, are they in accordance with your
9 memory of the situation in Urosevac at the time?
10 MR. LUKIC: Just one short intervention. Do you want him to take
11 off his headphones?
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Filic, could you again please remove the
13 earphones briefly while we deal with this issue.
14 Mr. Lukic.
15 MR. LUKIC: At that time he wasn't in Urosevac, so he cannot have
16 any recollection.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stamp.
18 MR. STAMP: The question -- I'm sorry, maybe I didn't phrase the
19 question correctly. I'm just asking if he recollects whether or not
20 while he was in Urosevac those figures reflect the situation there.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: As long as you phrase it that way, it will be
22 satisfactory because this predates his involvement in Urosevac and
23 therefore the situation may or may not have been similar.
24 Thank you for your patience again, Mr. Filic.
25 Mr. Stamp.
1 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 Q. The figures there that you see for Urosevac at row 6, is that the
3 situation that you recall in Urosevac at the time you were there?
4 A. In Urosevac SUP there was an officer by the name of Zivic from
5 the department of the police who was in charge of it. I came there
6 during the war, therefore I cannot be precise as to this is fully
7 credible or not.
8 Q. Okay. But without being precise does it approximate to the
9 numbers in Urosevac during the time you were there in April and May 1999?
10 A. The number of sections is approximately correct. As for the
11 number of weapons, I think it's a bit smaller.
12 Q. Now, the -- these reserve police stations or reserve police
13 units, were they available for engagement by the MUP staff from time to
15 A. I don't know on which tasks the MUP staff could have engaged
16 them. I told you they were at home in their own villages, they were not
17 at all engaged in any assignments until the beginning of air-strikes when
18 they were disbanded because members of the reserve force went to the MUP
19 and members of the reserve army units went to the army. So they were not
20 engaged in specific assignments until they were disbanded.
21 Q. You are saying they were disbanded on the 24th of March?
22 A. The 24th of March when the state of war was proclaimed. The
23 members who had been armed by the MUP went to join the reserve police
24 units. It happened in a similar way with the reserve army units. Maybe
25 one or two units remained in the territory after all.
1 Q. Maybe my understanding of what you are saying is -- or what you
2 have said is not correct. I thought you were explaining to us just now
3 that when you arrived in Urosevac, 15th of April, the number of units
4 were approximately -- reserve police units were approximately the same as
5 in the -- as in the table you were shown, but you are saying the weapons,
6 the amount of weapons, were perhaps smaller?
7 A. Prosecutor, this table was made before the war in February.
8 Q. I know.
9 A. When I went to Urosevac, these RPOs did not exist.
10 Q. So you are not telling us at all that when you went there the
11 number of RPOs that I showed you, 36, was probably correct but your
12 memory was that the number of weapons issued to them was less? That is
13 not what you are saying?
14 A. You asked me whether it was the case, not whether it was the case
15 when I went to Urosevac. Looking at the table and knowing the number of
16 Serbian villages in Urosevac, the area, and the number of Serb
17 population, I said that it was approximately correct but it doesn't mean
18 that I found those RPOs when I came to Urosevac in the form in which they
19 existed before.
20 Q. I see.
21 MR. STAMP: Can we look at P1993. MUP staff minutes for the 11th
22 of May, 1999, and if we could look at the last page, last paragraph,
23 immediately before where we see the meeting concluded.
24 Q. Can you read the last sentence there, please.
25 A. In the last paragraph?
1 Q. Yes, the last sentence. I think this straddles the --
2 A. "Members of RPO may not wear police or army uniforms unless they
3 have been mobilised and engaged in reserve units of the MUP or the VJ."
4 Q. This is General Lukic speaking. So as far as General Lukic was
5 concerned at that time, 11th of May, 1999, the RPOs and their membership
6 still existed?
7 A. I have said that a small number of them probably remained outside
8 the reserve forces of the MUP and the army, so it's probably a reference
9 to that small number that has not been mobilised into any units.
10 Q. How many RPOs remained at the time, at that time, when
11 General Lukic made this statement, 11th of May, 1999?
12 A. I don't know that, Mr. Prosecutor.
13 Q. How many existed in Urosevac?
14 A. I don't know that any remained. Maybe some remained in those
15 Serbian villages that didn't go to join, but I wasn't aware that any RPOs
16 existed in an organized manner.
17 Q. You will agree with me, will you, that those that existed after
18 the 24th of March were available to be engaged by the MUP or by the VJ if
20 A. I didn't quite understand the question.
21 Q. You are agreeing with me now that at least some RPOs existed
22 after the 24th of March, and I'm asking whether or not you will agree
23 with me that those which existed after the 24th of March were available
24 to be used or to be engaged by the MUP if necessary, the MUP staff if
1 A. During the war they could be engaged within the framework of
2 their mobilisational units, the MUP or the VJ. They could not be engaged
3 as RPOs.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you go over the page in English, please, to
5 see page 9. There's no reference anywhere else, is there, Mr. Stamp, to
6 their weapons; the reference is simply to uniforms, is it?
7 MR. STAMP: Indeed.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
9 MR. STAMP:
10 Q. Now, I would like to show you a couple documents quickly, sir.
11 MR. STAMP: Could we look at P3121. Could we go to page 3 in
12 both the English and the B/C/S, I think, just to identify the document.
13 Q. What we have here are the minutes of the meeting of the staff for
14 the 28th of July, 1998. This is one that you attended if we look in the
15 list of attendees at the top of this document. Do you see that?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. I want to ask you about your role as MUP spokesman, but before I
18 do that may I just ask you to look at page 7 in the -- it's page 7 in the
19 English of this document, which corresponds to page 6 in the B/C/S -- I'm
20 sorry, to page 8 in the B/C/S e-court. It's marked page 6 at the top,
21 but in e-court it's page 8.
22 You see where Captain Pesic is speaking, at the bottom of page 7
23 in English, if we could scroll down, please. This is also Captain Pesic
24 confirming the issuing of weapons to citizens. He says that: "Weapons
25 have been issued to 54.60 -- excuse me. Weapons have been issued to
1 54.683 persons. The MUP of the Republic of Serbia issued 12.170 ... the
2 VJ issued 34.716."
3 And in the last line indicates that: "'When all is finished,
4 about 60.000 persons will have been issued with weapons.'"
5 Do you recall Captain Pesic stating that at the meeting?
6 A. Yes, that's what the minutes say, but below that you read about
7 the request to the minister to be supplied with that. He probably found
8 this number questionable because you see the Minister Vlajko Stojiljkovic
9 reading that from a report asks that this report be sent to him.
10 Q. So you are speculating when you say the minister found --
11 probably found it not credible, aren't you? You don't know that?
12 A. I don't know that, but I can see what the minister says and I can
13 read that he asks to be given a copy of that report.
14 Q. Anyway, without going through all of this document, you will
15 recall at that meeting your role as MUP spokesman was discussed, do you?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. If we look at page 6 in the English, which I think corresponds to
18 page 7 in the B/C/S, we have you saying that: "'We have many press
19 statements that are given by various bodies which are not true.'"
20 And the minister says: "'Suppress that and give equal access to
21 the media, to everybody. Doctors and nurses must not provide any
22 information on our dead, injured, or wounded personnel before we do'" --
23 MR. LUKIC: It's page 5 in B/C/S.
24 MR. STAMP: Sorry.
25 It's page 7 in B/C/S --
1 MR. LUKIC: That may be in e-court, sorry, but it's --
2 MR. STAMP: In e-court, but it's marked as page 5.
3 MR. LUKIC: -- marked as page 5.
4 MR. STAMP:
5 Q. When the minister tells you to suppress "that," can you tell us
6 what he meant by that?
7 A. Some civilian agencies like presidents of municipalities, the
8 SPS, Municipal Boards gave certain statements. So where I speak we read
9 in my contribution that with regard to the civilian sector
10 Zoran Andjelkovic, who was part of that civilian structure in the
11 Executive Council and the provincial Executive Council was already being
12 established to be headed by him.
13 MR. STAMP: When he refers to Zoran Andjelkovic, Your Honours,
14 that's on page 7.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: What's that got to do with the question?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, here below I see that
17 Zoran Andjelkovic is to provide such statements and information regarding
18 the situation described before, nurses and unauthorised personnel should
19 not be able to give statements as they please.
20 MR. STAMP:
21 Q. Yes, what I was asking was what did the minister mean when he
22 told you to suppress "that"?
23 MR. LUKIC: Excuse me, Your Honour, maybe it's wrong translation.
24 In B/C/S the minister didn't tell it to Mr. Filic --
25 MR. STAMP: Well, let's ask him.
1 MR. LUKIC: He said --
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Let's ask the witness to read it and then we know
3 what it says.
4 Could you read the first line, first part of the statement
5 attributed to Mr. Stojiljkovic?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Minister Vlajko Stojiljkovic:
7 Things like that should be suppressed and equal access to the media
8 should be given to everyone."
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
10 Mr. Lukic.
11 MR. LUKIC: Exactly, should be.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you.
13 Mr. Stamp.
14 MR. STAMP:
15 Q. Well, when the minister told you that things like that should be
16 suppressed, what did he mean -- what ...
17 A. He probably meant to say that unauthorised people should not be
18 making statements for the public any which way they like and whenever
19 they please.
20 Q. In other words, he wanted to control the flow or he wanted you to
21 control the flow of information to the public; is that what he was
23 A. No, no, Mr. Prosecutor. My role as a spokesman was not to deal
24 with anything but anti-terrorist activities and to take foreign
25 correspondents out in the field where these activities were being carried
1 out. It was not my role as spokesperson to either hand out or suppress
3 Q. Very well. If we could look further on I think you have that
4 page there in front of you in B/C/S, and it's page 7 in the English, next
5 page in the English, we see that the minister says: "'The media centre
6 in Pristina has damaged us a little. We shouldn't write and say 'armed
7 Albanians' but 'terrorists,' that is, not armed Albanians but armed
8 terrorists. Don't write in reports that we killed an Albanian, but a
10 And you said: "'Zoran Andjelkovic mostly gives information about
11 events in Kosovo.'"
12 And the minister said: "'We should give less information on
13 wounded and dead Albanians.'"
14 Was the minister instructing you as to how you should carry out
15 your role as spokesman?
16 A. That was his opinion that he was expressing. I don't
17 particularly remember this, but he didn't generally give me any
18 particular instructions because when representatives of the foreign media
19 go out into the field they're able to see for themselves.
20 Q. He was just -- is that your answer, that he was just expressing
21 an opinion? Is that why he told you that?
22 A. Well, that's probably his opinion since it's on the record.
23 Q. Very well. That is your answer.
24 MR. STAMP: Could we look at another document, P3122.
25 Q. And if we could go to page 3 of both of them to identify what
1 this document is. Minutes of a meeting of the ministry staff of the 2nd
2 of December, 1998. Present were members of the staff, including
3 General Lukic; all chiefs of the SUPs; and commanders of the detachments;
4 as well as yourself, Colonel Bozidar Filic. You see that?
5 A. I can see that.
6 Q. Do you recall that meeting?
7 A. I cannot remember exactly, but I see from the paper that I
8 attended. There were lots of these meetings, so I can't specifically
9 recall this one, but I attended.
10 Q. And incidentally you are saying there were lots of meetings where
11 all the SUP chiefs were required to attend; is that what you mean when
12 you say there were lots of these meetings?
13 A. Not chiefs of SUPs, but -- I was not as a member of the staff, I
14 was there as the chief of SUP, a chief of SUP, but I probably attended in
15 my role as spokesperson.
16 Q. But there were many of these meetings held by the ministry staff
17 with the chiefs of the SUPs; is that your memory?
18 A. Meetings were held, not too many. It's mainly those that you
19 have the minutes of.
20 Q. Major-General Lukic it says here, the comments made at the
21 meeting: "Stated that on the 27th of November, 1998, in Belgrade, a
22 meeting at the Ministry of the Interior was held which was chaired by
23 Minister Vlajko Stojiljkovic and it was attended by chiefs of departments
24 of the public security and the DB, state security, assistant ministers,
25 head of the MUP staff in Pristina, and Nikola Sainovic. The ...
1 security situation in Kosovo was examined in the meeting, in which the
2 duties and further engagement of members of the police in Kosovo were
4 Do you know from what General Lukic told you at that meeting or
5 can you recall from what General Lukic told you at that meeting what was
6 the role of General -- sorry, what was the role of Nikola Sainovic in a
7 meeting with the heads of various police departments?
8 A. I don't remember, Mr. Prosecutor.
9 Q. Do you recall what decisions came out of that meeting that you
10 were told about or you don't recall?
11 A. From this meeting of the 2nd of December you mean?
12 Q. No, the meeting that General Lukic is speaking about in which
13 Mr. Sainovic is present with the heads of the MUP for Serbia.
14 A. I don't recall. I don't know about that.
15 Q. Okay. If we look at page 7 of this document, and page 7 in B/C/S
16 is page 4. E-court page 6 but designated page 4 in B/C/S. Where you see
17 General -- and this is General Lukic speaking, I think you can make that
18 out on the B/C/S copy -- no, it's on the previous page in the B/C/S copy
19 and the previous page in the English copy.
20 I represent to you, sir, that this is General Lukic speaking, and
21 he's recorded here that he issued tasks to the various participants of
22 this meeting. And if we turn the page, if we move to the next page in
23 both English and B/C/S, I'd like you to look at a couple of those tasks.
24 MR. STAMP: We need to move to the next page in B/C/S and the
25 next page in English.
1 Q. The last task that he issues is that by the 7th of December,
2 1998, you are to submit a plan for the prevention of terrorism, which in
3 principle should contain, and he lists eight factors or eight elements.
4 Do you recall General Lukic instructing the persons there to submit to
5 him a plan?
6 A. I don't remember this, Mr. Prosecutor. I don't remember this
8 Q. I think if you look at item 6 one of the elements is the:
9 "Security of facilities (in particular in the OUPs in Glogovac ..."
10 Do you remember who was the chief of the OUP in Glogovac at that
12 A. The chief of the Glogovac OUP was Petar Damjanac at that time.
13 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Filic.
14 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much, Your Honours, I have nothing
15 further for this witness.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
17 Questioned by the Court:
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Filic, you've told us that the PJP's principal
19 commander in Kosovo was the commander of the 124th Intervention Brigade.
20 To whom was he answerable?
21 A. The command of the 124th Brigade was the commander of that
22 brigade. That brigade comprised members of the PJP company and the
23 secretariat from the Kosovo area. So he was not the chief commander of
24 all the PJP, but only of that brigade from the Kosovo area.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: So let me be clear then. The commander of the
1 124th Brigade was the chief commander of the PJP who were operating in
2 Kosovo; is that correct?
3 A. No, not all the PJP who were operating in Kosovo, only of the
4 124th Brigade. That brigade --
5 JUDGE BONOMY: When he was on his PJP duties, to whom was he
7 A. His superior was the commander of all the PJP, all the PJP
9 JUDGE BONOMY: And who was that?
10 A. When I was in the PJP and led the Kosovo PJP, it was
11 General Obrad Stevanovic who was in charge of that and then later on he
12 became the assistant minister, and whether as such he was in charge of
13 the PJP I don't know exactly.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: So your answer is that in 1999 -- 1998 and 1999
15 you do not know who was in charge of the PJP?
16 A. I think it was General Obrad Stevanovic, but I know that
17 officially he was the assistant minister.
20 MR. STAMP: Closed.
21 MR. LUKIC: We were in closed session.
22 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
23 JUDGE BONOMY: We'll go into private session.
24 [Private session]
11 Page 24031 redacted. Private session
8 (redacted) [Part of the confidentiality lifted by later order of the Chamber]
9 JUDGE BONOMY: You gave us a description of the -- a brief
10 description of the role of Adamovic in the work of the MUP staff. Could
11 you tell me again what the role of Adamovic was in the MUP staff?
12 A. In the MUP staff, to the best of my knowledge from my contacts
13 with them, the head of the staff, the chief of the staff, had assistants
14 for police, crime prevention, border, foreign nationals, and traffic
15 affairs, and he was the assistant of the Chief of Staff for police work.
16 He dealt with the work of police stations and probably work on the
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you give me an example of the sort of thing he
19 would do, a concrete example?
20 A. Well, in concrete terms, what could I say? It's possible that he
21 provided assistance where the secretariats asked for it, to the police
22 stations to put the police records in order, to put the files in order
23 because the work was done according to the sector principle and he had
24 quite a lot of experience in -- in organizing such activities. So when
25 asked for assistance he could provide instruction.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: So were the secretariats not good at keeping
3 A. Well, perhaps in some secretariats in some police departments
4 they needed some assistance in that respect. Where you asked me to be
5 specific, concrete, I don't know what else I could say.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Any re-examination, Mr. Lukic?
7 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Sorry, there was no need for private session
9 beyond the reference -- just hold on a second until I give you a page.
10 Yeah, and after 22.18. So, from 22.19 onwards should not have been in
11 private session and we can now return to open session.
12 [Open session]
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
15 Mr. Lukic.
16 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:
18 Q. [Interpretation] His Honour Judge Bonomy put a question to you,
19 and that was to be my first question actually to you. To what line of
20 work did Mr. Adamovic belong, what line of work did he belong to?
21 A. You mean in the ministry?
22 Q. Yes, in the ministry.
23 A. Well, to the police administration in the ministry.
24 Q. Is that the uniformed or the non-uniformed part?
25 A. It's the uniformed part.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now have in e-court P1989.
3 Q. These are minutes of a meeting held with the leading police
4 employees, senior police officials in Kosovo and Metohija. First of all,
5 did you attend this meeting?
6 A. No.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now see page 3.
8 Q. At the bottom of the page under number 2 we see that
9 Sreten Lukic, the chief of the -- the head of the staff took the floor,
10 but we also see that General Obrad Stevanovic also attended. I would
11 like to ask you whether Lieutenant-General Stevanovic could also issue
12 tasks to the MUP units?
13 A. Yes, certainly.
14 Q. In the second bullet point, the first, Sreten Lukic, head of
15 staff of the ministry, and then the second bullet point: "The MUP
16 carries out its tasks in time of war just as in peacetime, the
17 perpetrators of crimes are treated the same as in peacetime ..."
18 Is this something new, a new order, or is it simply updating
19 something that is already a task of the SUP?
20 A. Well, this is nothing new. This is a regular, ongoing task,
21 which is simply being updated, as you put it.
22 Q. Third bullet point: "Functioning of all other services in
23 security matters shall proceed as ordered by the secretariat and the
24 secretariat chiefs are responsible for this."
25 Did Sreten Lukic introduce this duty here for the first time?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Or was it a regular, ongoing task?
3 A. It was a regular task, functioning of the secretariat.
4 Q. And to whom were you responsible as chiefs of the secretariat,
5 were -- you still weren't at that post but to whom were chiefs of the
6 secretariats responsible?
7 A. To the chief of the public security sector in the ministry.
8 Q. The last bullet point was read out to you: "Compulsory reporting
9 of the chiefs of the secretariats and the commanders of the units to the
11 Are you aware that at that time, the 4th of April, 1999, the SUPs
12 and OUPs were a target of NATO aviation --
13 MR. STAMP: That sounds like it's going to be a leading question.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic --
15 MR. LUKIC: If he knows.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: But you've given him the answer. It really -- you
17 know, if he does or doesn't know is neither here nor there now. There's
18 an invitation to answer the question in a particular way. It doesn't
19 remove the nature or change the nature of the question that you put the
20 words "do you know" in front of it.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Was a building hit at that time belonging to the Ministry of the
23 Interior, up to that time?
24 A. The Pristina SUP was targeted, the SUP building in which a
25 brigade was billeted within the barracks. I think that buildings for
1 accommodating people belonging to the secretariat were all targeted, as
2 were the barracks.
3 Q. Did Obrad Stevanovic have an address in Kosovo and Metohija
4 outside the MUP staff?
5 A. I don't think he did. He and Djordjevic stayed in the staff
6 premises when they visited.
7 Q. You were asked today on page 64, line 8, and by His Honour
8 Judge Bonomy about your meetings with Lieutenant-General Jelic, the
9 commander of the brigade that was deployed in your territory. And you
10 were asked about the subject of your conversation with him. Forget
11 planning now. Don't think about planning the action now. Did you send
12 patrols out onto the ground usually?
13 A. What patrols do you mean, police patrols?
14 Q. Yes.
15 A. Yes, certainly.
16 Q. Did you discuss with him -- did you discuss with him anything
17 about patrols?
18 A. We had a joint check-point on the road to Skopje with members of
19 the military police.
20 Q. Were there any movements of civilians?
21 A. When I left for Urosevac, those Albanians who had intended to
22 leave had left already. There were no movements of civilians apart from
23 movements from Gnjilane via Urosevac towards the border.
24 Q. Remember, please, whether you discussed anything else with Jelic,
25 nothing to do with planning.
1 A. I can't remember. I think sometimes you can have a cup of coffee
2 with someone and just talk without discussing anything in particular. I
3 find it hard to remember now after ten years.
4 Q. What did you do after the operation was completed?
5 A. Which operation?
6 Q. Well, you mentioned Jezerce, for instance.
7 A. During the operation and afterwards a certain number of persons
8 suspected of being in the KLA were brought to our premises to be
9 questioned by operative workers, and it continued with the prosecutions
10 of those who were proven to be participants -- participants in armed
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] P2804, please.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: So somewhere there are documents about KLA
14 personnel captured during that operation being prosecuted?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't quite understand your
16 question, Mr. President.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I'm asking you to confirm that there will be
18 documents about the prosecution of KLA personnel who were captured during
19 the operation and afterwards; is that correct?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There are documents, criminal
21 reports, that were filed and I believe one of the witnesses after me will
22 deal with that topic. The chief of the crime police was -- had the main
23 responsibility for that kind of work in the secretariat.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: So how many roughly were involved? How many
25 prisoners were taken in connection with that operation?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From my information between 50 and
2 60 people were brought in during and after the completion of the Jezerce
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
5 Mr. Lukic.
6 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 [Interpretation] We need in e-court the second page. Legibility
8 is poor so I will read it.
9 "Carry out a plan of combat training," paragraph 3, "in all RPOs
10 in keeping with the plan that has been delivered to you."
11 Q. Is it clear --
12 MR. STAMP: Just to be clear, carry out a plan or carry out the
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic.
15 MR. LUKIC: I could ask the witness.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, you can ask him if you wish.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Mr. Filic, is this a particular plan or a plan, what would you
19 say? The plan has been already delivered.
20 A. I don't know. I was not very familiar with these plans. I said
21 as much to the Prosecutor.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you read the sentence, please, referring to
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From this document?
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "For each RPO form dossiers that
2 should contain the level of threat to the RPO, assessments" --
3 JUDGE BONOMY: The sentence before that, please.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Carry out the plan of training in
5 all RPOs in keeping with the plan that has been delivered to you," which
6 means that previously some plan has been delivered.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
8 Mr. Lukic.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now have P1193, please --
10 P1993. [In English] It's my mistake.
11 Q. [Interpretation] Were you present at this meeting at the staff on
12 the 11th of May, 1999?
13 A. No.
14 Q. All right. You have been asked here about RPOs. Was the staff
15 able to engage them. But I want to ask you: Can the MUP engage
16 reservists of the Army of Yugoslavia?
17 A. No, it cannot.
18 Q. Can the Army of Yugoslavia engage reservists of the MUP?
19 A. No, it cannot.
20 Q. Now we need P3121. In English it's page 6, in Serbian it's 7.
21 These are minutes from a staff meeting on the 29th of July, 1998. It was
22 in dispute who was ordering what to whom. Can you read the sentence
23 beginning with the word "doctors."
24 A. I don't --
25 Q. Look at your name and then below that Minister Stojiljkovic
2 A. "'Doctors and nurses must not provide information before we do
3 about our casualties and losses, the same goes for journalists.'"
4 Q. What is the gist of the minister's message?
5 A. Well, his point is that this information cannot be provided by
6 doctors and nurses concerning people who were hospitalised for treatment,
7 the wounded.
8 Q. Did you ever have any problems with the families of men who were
9 killed or wounded, policemen?
10 A. What kind of problems?
11 Q. That they found out things that even you didn't know.
12 A. Yes, things like that happened.
13 Q. Can we now please have P3122, and that's my last document.
14 Page 3. Later on we saw that Sreten Lukic issued certain
15 information in items 1 to 8. You have been shown that, but I want to ask
16 you from this page can you see that you were present? Did General Lukic
17 convey to this meeting what had been ordered in Belgrade?
18 A. I told the Prosecutor a moment ago that I can't remember the
19 details of this.
20 Q. Thank you, Mr. Filic. Thank you for giving evidence. I have no
21 further questions.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.
23 Mr. Filic, that completes your evidence. Thank you for coming
24 here to give evidence and to assist us. You may now leave the courtroom
25 with the usher.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
2 [The witness withdrew]
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stamp, an administrative matter. Are you
4 familiar with an application by Messrs. Ojdanic and Lukic to add a
5 handwriting expert to the witnesses?
6 MR. STAMP: Yes, I am.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: An application has been made by Mr. Pavkovic for
8 more time to answer that. Do you have a problem if he has more time?
9 MR. STAMP: No, no, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Visnjic, do you have a problem if more time is
11 allowed for that?
12 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Bearing in mind the decision that
13 I've just read, it -- your decision, it has to do with us, it concerns
14 our bar table. By tomorrow morning I could give you an answer.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: But does it -- in view of the decision we've made,
16 can you have any difficulty if we were to allow, say, until Monday for
17 the Pavkovic response?
18 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] That's not what I meant,
19 Your Honour. The reasons he stated in his application are gone with this
20 decision today.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Is it you, Mr. Ivetic, who's dealing with this or
22 are you content with what Mr. Visnjic has said and we'll hear from him
24 MR. IVETIC: We'll defer to Mr. Visnjic. On our part we have no
1 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you.
2 Well, we shall adjourn now and resume tomorrow at 2.15.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Here at 2.15 tomorrow.
5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.32 p.m.,
6 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 11th day of
7 March, 2008, at 2.15 p.m.