Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 24043

1 Tuesday, 11 March 2008

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The Accused Pavkovic not present]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.15 p.m.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Good afternoon, everyone.

7 Mr. Aleksic, you want to say something.

8 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.

9 Bearing in mind yesterday's ruling of the Trial Chamber, we are hereby

10 withdrawing our yesterday's motion.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: That's the motion for an extension of time?

12 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: [Previous translation continues]... withdraw it.

14 Thank you.

15 Mr. Ivetic, your next witness.

16 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour. Our next witness is

17 Mr. Milivoje Mihajlovic.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

19 [The witness entered court]

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Mihajlovic, good afternoon.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Would you please make the solemn declaration to

23 speak the truth by reading aloud the document which will now be shown to

24 you.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

Page 24044

1 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Please be seated.

3 You will now be examined by Mr. Ivetic on behalf of Mr. Lukic.

4 Mr. Ivetic.

5 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.


7 [Witness answered through interpreter]

8 Examination by Mr. Ivetic:

9 Q. Good day, Mr. Mihajlovic. For the record, could you first

10 introduce yourself to the members of the Trial Chamber, giving your name

11 in full.

12 A. My name is Milivoje Mihajlovic.

13 Q. And during the preparations for your testimony here, did you have

14 occasion to meet with the Sreten Lukic Defence team to prepare a written

15 statement?

16 A. Yes.

17 MR. IVETIC: If I could have the usher's assistance, I would like

18 to have a hard copy of 6D1530 handed to the witness for efficiency of

19 proceeding through this part of the examination.

20 Q. Sir, if I could ask you first to take a look at this document and

21 see if, indeed, you recognise this as being the written statement which

22 you prepared with the members of the Sreten Lukic Defence team for use in

23 these proceedings.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Okay. Did you have occasion to review the statement to ensure

Page 24045

1 its contents accurately and correctly reflected your words and knowledge

2 on the topics reflected therein before signing the same?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, today you're under oath. If I were to ask you today about

5 these same topics and questions, would you still give the same answers

6 and information as reflected herein in this written statement?

7 A. Yes, certainly.

8 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I would move for Exhibit 6D1530 to be

9 admitted into evidence. I don't believe there's any exhibits that are

10 referenced therein, so it's just a free-standing statement at this time.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.


13 Q. Now, Mr. Mihajlovic, I would like to ask you some additional

14 short and concrete questions in addition to your statement. First of

15 all, what can you tell us about whether there existed in 1998 and 1999

16 radio or TV stations in Pristina broadcasting programmes in the Albanian

17 language?

18 A. There was Radio Pristina and TV Pristina, and they all belonged

19 to the Pristina TV media outlet and they had broadcasts in Albanian.

20 Q. Sorry. I was waiting for the transcript. And who sponsored or

21 financed these stations that comprised Radio TV Pristina?

22 A. Radio TV Pristina was financed by the state of Serbia.

23 Q. And how many hours a day did these stations transmit programmes

24 in the Albanian language?

25 A. Radio Pristina had 16 and a half hours of Albanian broadcasts a

Page 24046

1 day, and as for TV Pristina they had three and a half hours of Albanian

2 broadcasts a day.

3 Q. And could you briefly or generally describe for us what time of

4 programming comprised the -- both the TV and the radio broadcast

5 schedules of these two stations.

6 A. Both TV and radio had information programmes, that is to say

7 news; then they had entertainment, cultural programmes on television;

8 they also had films; and on radio they had drama.

9 Q. And in your written statement at paragraph 7, that's page 3 of

10 the Serbian, 3 and 4 of the English translation, you state that there

11 were around 25 different magazines and newspapers in the Albanian

12 language that were -- that were officially known of. Were these

13 available in 1998 and 1999; and if so, where could they be obtained or

14 purchased at that time?

15 A. Yes, they were sold on all newsstands in the province and one

16 could buy them in every town in the province.

17 Q. And were any of these 25 that you have identified magazines and

18 newspapers that were owned or financed by the Serbian or Yugoslav

19 officials or authorities?

20 A. Except for a journal called Buj ku which was published for

21 farmers initially and later on it had serious political articles which

22 was financed privately until 1998; all other publications were state

23 financed.

24 Q. Now, you state that some of these were even KLA mouthpieces.

25 What sorts of things did these Albanian-language newspapers or magazines

Page 24047

1 have to say that led you to believe that they ought to perhaps have been

2 banned even though they were not?

3 A. There were two papers with information content which suited the

4 KLA purposes, one was a weekly called Kombi, which means nation in

5 translation, and there was a biweekly publication called Gazeta

6 shqiptare. These publications mostly brought announcements of the KLA,

7 they also published interviews of KLA commanders from the vicinity of

8 Kosovska Mitrovica and throughout the province. These texts were such

9 that they inspired ethnic hatred and it was strange for me that

10 authorities did nothing to ban them. One could buy these magazines on

11 all newsstands throughout the province in addition to magazines and

12 publications in Serbia and in addition to all other available media.

13 Q. One correction for the record, Your Honour, at page 4, lines 20

14 through 23, I believe that the witness testified that Bujku was published

15 for farmers initially and later on it had serious political articles

16 privately financed probably until 1998 although the publications were

17 privately financed as I believe is what the translation came through. We

18 can ask the witness to verify. All others were privately financed or we

19 can have the witness clarify. I wasn't listening to the English

20 translation, so I don't know if that's what actually came through on the

21 text or not.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you tell us how the original or the journal

23 you referred to as Bujku was published?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Initially it was financed by the

25 state. Later on when they started having serious political content they

Page 24048

1 became private.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: And what did you say was the source of funding for

3 all other publications?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Private.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

6 Mr. Ivetic.

7 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

8 Q. Now, if we could move to a related theme or topic at paragraph 36

9 of your statement, which I believe is the 12th and 13th page of the

10 English and I believe the tenth of the Serbian or thereabouts. You talk

11 of programmes of the Albanian TV Sele [phoen] programme telling people to

12 leave Kosovo. First of all, who operated this TV broadcast?

13 A. That was the state television of Albania, TV Tirana.

14 Q. And if you could tell us as based upon your observations in 1998

15 and 1999 how prevalent were the satellite receiver antennas in Pristina

16 necessary for one to follow or watch this satellite TV programme of the

17 Republic of Albania?

18 A. Almost every household, every apartment, in Pristina had a

19 satellite aerial in order to be able to follow the programme of TV

20 Tirana.

21 Q. And do you have knowledge of -- you have -- you've identified the

22 subject matter of the calls that were put forward on this TV broadcast.

23 Do you have knowledge of why that TV broadcast explained or told people

24 to leave Kosovo-Metohija?

25 A. TV programme constantly informed about the crisis in Kosovo and

Page 24049

1 Metohija, and at the very outset of the bombing and before the bombing

2 started in their media there was information to the effect that there

3 soon would be a war between NATO and Yugoslavia, based upon which they

4 concluded that they needed to leave Kosovo as soon as possible.

5 Q. In addition to the programmes that we have been talking about

6 thus far, do you also have any knowledge of any illegal radio stations

7 that transmitted or operated within the territory of the province -- the

8 Serbian province of Kosovo and Metohija during 1998 and 1999?

9 A. In mid-1998 and in 1999 there were also illegal radio stations.

10 One was called Slobodno Kosovo or free Kosovo, which broadcast in news in

11 Albanian and music, and that station constantly guided the sentiments of

12 the Albanian population in the province. They aired interviews of local

13 KLA commanders, and in some critical moment they called upon the people

14 to leave their villages and to go someplace else. They were known as a

15 mouthpiece of the KLA literally.

16 Q. And you say they aired the interviews of local KLA commanders.

17 Do you know the area where this free Kosovo or Slobodno Kosovo radio

18 station operated or transmitted?

19 A. We didn't know from which place that programme was broadcast, but

20 one could listen to it on radios in the greater part of Kosovo, in

21 Drenica, in Metohija, in the area of Kosovska Mitrovica, one could follow

22 the signal of that radio station, of those radio stations, very well. I

23 guess that there were a number of them.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Just one moment.

25 Is it -- in its name it used Serb language, did it?

Page 24050

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, they used Albanian

2 language.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: It's appearing in our transcript as called

4 Slobodno Kosovo. Is that not Albanian -- Serbian?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In translation in Serbian it's

6 called Slobodno Kosovo. In Albanian it was known as Kosova Elire.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

8 Mr. Ivetic.

9 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.

10 Q. Mr. Mihajlovic, you said at lines 22 and 23 of page 7 you guess

11 there are a number of them. Do you have any actual personal knowledge of

12 any other names of any such private or illegal radio stations

13 transmitting in various regions as mouthpieces for the Kosovo Liberation

14 Army or any other armed Albanian separatist faction?

15 A. That radio was known as Slobodno Kosovo and every broadcast began

16 with the following words: You are following radio Slobodno Kosovo or you

17 are listening to radio Slobodno Kosovo.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm finding this difficult in the interpretation

19 that we're constantly in English getting the name Slobodna Kosovo. Can

20 the interpreter help us and explain why that is the translation into

21 English.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honour, sometimes it's a custom to keep

23 the names in the original. The literal translation into English would

24 be: Free Kosovo.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.

Page 24051

1 Please continue, Mr. Ivetic.

2 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.

3 Q. Now, Mr. Mihajlovic, if we could turn to your media centre in

4 Pristina itself. Could you please tell us how and by whom it was decided

5 to form this media centre.

6 A. The media centre was established by an association of journalists

7 in Serbia which was the only association of journalists in the republic

8 at the time.

9 Q. And were you a part of this association that decided to form this

10 media centre or I should say are you one of the driving forces of the

11 efforts to have the media centre established?

12 A. Yes, I was one of those who gave the initiative to establish the

13 media centre.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Were there Albanian journalists who were members

15 of the association?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean the association of

17 journalists of Serbia?


19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, there were Albanian

20 journalists, not many but there were some.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic.

22 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.

23 Q. And I guess -- I believe it's in his statement, but just if you

24 could clarify the media centre in Pristina that you ran included Albanian

25 staff in addition to Serbs; is that correct?

Page 24052

1 A. Yes, in the Pristina media centre about 20 people were employed,

2 the majority of them were Serbs but there was several Albanians and there

3 was even a woman from Syria.

4 Q. And how were the directors and other officers of the media centre

5 selected?

6 A. The Association of Journalists of Serbia established a programme

7 board of the media centre that elected director and editor-in-chief and

8 we selected other employees of the centre.

9 Q. How was media centre financed? How did you obtain funding for

10 the same?

11 A. The media centre organized press conferences, and those who held

12 press conferences had to pay and that was the main source of funding for

13 the media centre. And the journalists who were employed in the media

14 centres also worked occasionally as stringers or freelancers, and they

15 would earn thereby money, 15 per cent of which was due to the media

16 centre and that was sufficient to fund the work of the centre.

17 Q. Did you also have to seek out any donations from private firms?

18 A. I didn't have to look for donations, but about ten private

19 companies gave donations to the media centres in the following form. We

20 received a Xerox machine, we received curtains and some other equipment

21 and the premises remained there in the media centre, original premises.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Mihajlovic, you say that those who held press

23 conferences had to pay. What do you mean by those who held the press

24 conferences? Can you give us examples so that we can see the

25 relationship?

Page 24053

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Conferences were held by leaders of

2 oppositional and other parties in Serbia, all of them had to pay 500

3 marks for each press conference at the time.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

5 Mr. Ivetic.


7 Q. And were there also foreign entities that would also rent the

8 press centre facilities for use for press conferences?

9 A. Yes, there were. There were foreign organizations that rented

10 out the premises, they were mostly NGOs who wanted some publicity because

11 at the media centre at any time there were at least 100 to 150

12 journalists present.

13 Q. I believe in your statement you describe the accommodations with

14 the Hotel Grand for the use of the media centre at -- I think that's at

15 paragraph 10 at page 4 of the English. Now, did you -- how did you

16 obtain the necessary equipment, gear, and other technical details for the

17 media centre, apart from the premises, since you've already had that

18 detailed?

19 A. Yes, I have already said that we received a printer as a donation

20 from a company in Valjevo. We received several TV sets as a donation

21 from some private companies, either in Serbia or in Kosovo. We bought

22 our own telephones. We did not have much in terms of equipment. We only

23 had three computers.

24 Q. Now all inclusive including all the salaries and expenses for the

25 various personnel there, what was the monthly cost of operations for the

Page 24054

1 media centre?

2 A. Salaries amounted to about $1.000 a month for all employees. As

3 for retirement contributions and other costs, that did not go over $2.000

4 a month. So the entire operation cost about $3.000 a month.

5 Q. Did you ever send any reports relating to the work of the media

6 centre to anyone; and if so, who?

7 A. Yes. Every month we would send reports on the work of the media

8 centre to the Association of Journalists of Serbia who was our founder,

9 and then we also sent to them an annual report at the end of each year.

10 Q. Now, did you have contacts with the OSCE-KVM and what kind of

11 cooperation did you provide to them?

12 A. We had good cooperation with the OSCE and with the KVM because

13 they spent quite a lot of time in the Grand Hotel and they communicated

14 both with us and with the journalists who were staying or who were in

15 that hotel.

16 Q. Now, at paragraph 28 of your statement, that's in the

17 Serbian page 9, in the English I'm showing, page 4 -- that can't possibly

18 be right. I believe in the English it should be approximately page 10 if

19 I'm not mistaken, you mentioned that you had dinners with the America

20 KDOM chief Shaun Byrnes. With respect to those dinner meetings did

21 Mr. Byrnes at any time ever voice to you any concerns about the level of

22 cooperation from the Serbian MUP and particularly from Sreten Lukic of

23 the MUP staff in Pristina?

24 A. No, he did not complain about the cooperation with the Serbian

25 police. Most often we talked about the two journalists from Radio

Page 24055

1 Pristina who had been kidnapped, Perenic and Slavuj. Mr. Byrnes insisted

2 on meeting their families. These journalists have not been traced to

3 this day, but Mr. Byrnes never said about having bad cooperation with the

4 police. To the contrary, I think that he mentioned that he had good

5 cooperation on several occasions.

6 Q. And just one last question with respect to Mr. Byrnes. During

7 these same dinner meetings did he ever voice complaints to you that the

8 Serbian police were committing widespread violence and/or crimes against

9 the Albanian citizens of Kosovo and Metohija?

10 A. No, he didn't mention that. It was my impression, at least

11 that's what he used to say, that his job was to place local KLA

12 commanders under control.

13 Q. Thank you. If we could move on now. Who was your main contact

14 person within the Serbian Ministry of the Interior and from what

15 organized unit or structure of the Serbian MUP did that person hail?

16 A. My main contact was the spokesperson of MUP, Bozidar Filic, who

17 worked in the Pristina SUP.

18 Q. Were there any incidents when you took either domestic or

19 international reporters out into the field when you were attacked by the

20 KLA or other armed Albanian separatists or criminal movements?

21 A. Yes, there was an incident in late July, that's the one I

22 remember, in late July of 1998. As we were returning from Orahovac there

23 was a column of some 40 vehicles comprising mostly representatives of the

24 foreign media outlets. We were on our way back from Orahovac and we came

25 under attack. Part of the column was severed and they turned back,

Page 24056

1 whereas two vehicles in one of which I was continued to Pristina. The

2 third vehicle was a jeep with BBC personnel was hit by a round. In

3 addition to that I told you that KLA members kidnapped journalists of TV

4 Pristina, Slavuj and Perenic. These two people have not been found to

5 this day, and also a journalist from Tanjug, Nebojsa Radosevic and his

6 cameraman who were released after 25 days in captivity.

7 Q. Did you have occasion to spend time in or reside in Kosovo Polje;

8 and if so, for how long and when?

9 A. I lived in Kosovo Polje from the age of 5 and then all the way up

10 to the end of June 1999.

11 Q. Can you describe for us in terms of its geographic size or layout

12 how large a town Kosovo Polje is?

13 A. Kosovo Polje is a municipality that had a population of 12.000.

14 It has one main street that goes towards Pristina from that neighbourhood

15 and a few smaller streets. The railway station of Kosovo Polje is the

16 main building there -- rather, it is the railway hub of Kosovo and

17 Metohija.

18 Q. Now, we've had some witnesses here, specifically Generals

19 Vasiljevic and Gajic, who have claimed that the paramilitary groups,

20 first the Wolves of the Drina and then also Arkan's Tigers, were based in

21 Kosovo Polje. First, as someone who hails from the region and lived

22 there during the relevant time-period and as someone who professionally

23 was a news journalist covering events in the region, could you comment on

24 your opinion of the feasibility of these assertions?

25 A. I think that that is not realistic. Kosovo Polje is only 6

Page 24057

1 kilometres away from Pristina. In Pristina there were 2.000 foreign

2 journalists in that period, 1998/1999. That could not have been

3 concealed. I never heard of such information and I lived in Kosovo

4 Polje.

5 Q. Now, at paragraph 15 of your statement, that's page 5 of the

6 English, you describe terrorist attacks that were carried out "according

7 to the same model."

8 How often or frequent were these types of attacks that you said

9 were carried out according to a particular model?

10 A. Well, these attacks usually took place in mid-1998 and in the

11 second half of 1998 practically every day between Djakovica and Pec, Pec

12 and Klina, Pec and Prizren and Orahovac.

13 Q. Just to clarify one matter, you mentioned at page 14, lines 12

14 through 16, that the municipality of Kosovo Polje had a population of

15 12.000. Would I be correct that the actual town itself has a much

16 smaller population?

17 A. No, the town itself had a population of 12.000.

18 Q. Okay. And do you have any -- strike that.

19 We've had some evidence here about the death -- or actually the

20 murder of an individual by the name of Kelmendi, Bajram Kelmendi, a noted

21 attorney from Kosovo and Metohija. Do you have any personal knowledge or

22 information into this incident; and if so, from whom and what is that

23 information?

24 A. I knew Bajram Kelmendi. I know that he was killed in Pristina in

25 his very own apartment. We carried that piece of news at the media

Page 24058

1 centre. Later on we heard in town that Bajram Kelmendi had been killed

2 by criminals, a mixed Serbian and Albanian gang. I have no proof, but

3 that is what people were saying in town and also a lot of money was taken

4 from his safe.

5 Q. Did you ever have occasion to speak with any members of his

6 family regarding this?

7 A. I talked to his wife after his death; she was terribly shaken.

8 Q. And was she able to confirm any of the details that you have just

9 mentioned about what was being heard in the town relating to this

10 individual's death?

11 A. Well, this was right after his murder. He was murdered and his

12 son was murdered in the same house. She was terribly shaken. We just

13 exchanged a few sentences about that. She had heard these stories that

14 went around town, but we didn't have any proof.

15 Q. Thank you, Mr. Mihajlovic, for coming to give testimony. I think

16 I told you in proofing we put a lot of your stuff into the written

17 statement.

18 MR. IVETIC: So, Your Honours, that's all I have for direct

19 examination for this witness.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

21 Mr. Mihajlovic, was it only one son that was killed along with

22 Kelmendi?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think so, if I remember correctly

24 it was one son only. I'm not sure, though.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

Page 24059

1 Any Defence counsel have questions? No.

2 You'll now be cross-examined by the Prosecutor, Mr. Hannis.

3 Mr. Hannis.

4 Cross-examination by Mr. Hannis:

5 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Mihajlovic.

6 A. Good afternoon.

7 Q. And in addition to Serbian, what other languages to you speak and

8 understand?

9 A. Albanian and English.

10 Q. In your statement, Exhibit 6D1530, there are a number of things I

11 wanted to ask you about. In paragraph 3 you mentioned that "the KLA

12 appeared in the media with a statement in 1997 in which it accepted

13 responsibility for a terrorist act."

14 And then you say: "The political leaders of the Kosovo

15 Albanians, above all Ibrahim Rugova, the," here it's translated as DSK

16 leader ignored the appearance of the KLA for a long time, claiming that

17 it did not exist and that it was the product of the Serbian secret

18 services."

19 In your statement there where you say "the political leaders,"

20 how many people are you talking about and who exactly are you referring

21 to?

22 A. Primarily Ibrahim Rugova, then the vice chairman of his party

23 Fehmi Agani; then Adem Demaqi, who was a very influential Albanian

24 politician, then a few politicians who were not as influential as Ibrahim

25 Rugova, that was Ljuljeta Pulja Beciri, Kaqusha Jashari, and Jusuf

Page 24060

1 Buxhovi, I think.

2 Q. And you're saying each and every one of those claimed that the

3 KLA did not exist; is that what you're saying?

4 A. Yes, yes.

5 Q. And --

6 A. In 1997, yes.

7 Q. Okay. And then in 1998 did they start to come around and say

8 that the KLA did exist?

9 A. In 1998 Adem Demaqi became the spokesperson for the KLA.

10 Q. And as a matter of fact, didn't the Serbian authorities for just

11 as long a time, if not longer, deny the existence of the KLA; as a matter

12 of fact, for years they used the term "so-called KLA," right?

13 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I'll object to the form of the

14 question. This is a peculiarly I think that the Trial Chamber's raised

15 in certain languages -- and I think it's improper to imply that

16 "so-called" has the same meaning in English --

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, you see, that's a matter the witness can

18 handle, Mr. Ivetic.

19 MR. IVETIC: That's fine.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: A matter of assessment, opinion, judgement, it's

21 not a black-and-white situation where you can say that the question is

22 improper.

23 So, Mr. Hannis, if you consider there's any value left in your

24 question, please proceed with it.

25 MR. HANNIS: No, Your Honour, I'll move on.

Page 24061

1 Q. In paragraph 6 you mention that the press in Albanian which came

2 out in Kosovo supported the KLA. And you say the dailies Bujku and Koha

3 Ditore did not condemn the attacks in the province. Is it your evidence

4 that neither one of those papers ever condemned the attacks carried out

5 by KLA, they never condemned the violence; is that your position?

6 A. In the period from 1997 through 1999 not a single newspaper in

7 Albanian condemned a single terrorist attack that had been committed by

8 the KLA.

9 Q. And are you saying that Koha Ditore never took Mr. Rugova to task

10 for not taking a stronger position against the violence committed by the

11 KLA?

12 A. That's not to say that they condemned violence.

13 Q. All right. According to paragraph 7 you say there were 25

14 newspapers and magazines in Albanian being published in Pristina.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You mention Kombi and Gazeta shqiptare as being literally the

17 mouthpieces of the KLA. So I take it that Bujku and Koha Ditore were not

18 mouthpieces for the KLA, were they?

19 A. No. Bujku and Koha Ditore transmitted KLA statements or press

20 releases, but they did not carry interviews with the leaders and

21 commanders of the KLA and they did not disseminate hatred.

22 Q. In paragraph 7 you say: "It's interesting that in these

23 magazines," and I think you're referring to Kombi and the Gazeta, "they

24 only used the derogatory term to refer to the Serbs." I can't pronounce

25 that word, but I would like to ask you in your reporting, what term did

Page 24062

1 you use to refer to the Kosovar Albanians and the KLA, did you use the

2 word "Albanac" or "Siptar"?

3 A. Albanac only.

4 Q. Okay. And is that because you used -- you viewed the use of the

5 word "Siptar" as derogatory?

6 A. No. The term Siptar is not derogatory. When the Albanians say

7 it themselves that they are Albanian, they say: I'm an Albanian --

8 THE INTERPRETER: The witness spoke in Albanian.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- this is not a derogatory term,

10 but in the Constitution of Serbia, the Albanians were called Albanians,

11 Albanci. I know there were some Albanians who were upset when they were

12 called Siptars, so that's why I called them Albanians.


14 Q. You, in referring to some of these publications in paragraph 7

15 you say: "It was obvious that these newspapers were not able to sustain

16 themselves on the number of copies printed and sold but received

17 assistance from the outside."

18 How was it obvious? Did you take account or do an accounting of

19 those newspapers?

20 A. It was obvious because there were ads in these newspapers, ads

21 that were under the slogan: The homeland is calling.

22 THE INTERPRETER: The witness again spoke in Albanian.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And this was in support of the

24 Albanian cause in Kosovo as they put it.


Page 24063

1 Q. Didn't your media centre receive assistance from the outside as

2 well?

3 A. What do you mean assistance from the outside?

4 Q. Well, you talked about donations and equipment received from

5 private companies; wasn't that from the outside?

6 A. Yes, well, that is from the outside in the form of three TV sets

7 and three computers.

8 Q. That's the total -- that's the sum total of what you received

9 from private companies?

10 A. That's all we received from private companies.

11 Q. You didn't receive any financial donations?

12 A. No, there was no need for financial donations.

13 Q. You say in that paragraph 7 that: "It was assumed that some of

14 them," these Albanian publications, "like Koha Ditore were funded by

15 international organizations."

16 Assumed by whom, by you?

17 A. Assumed by all, Albanian journalists, Serb journalists. There

18 were even texts in the press that was published in the Albanian language

19 in Pristina stating that the Koha Ditore paper was financed from abroad.

20 Zeri i Rinise in particular said that.

21 Q. Did you do anything independently to check that out for yourself?

22 A. No, I didn't try and I really had no way of checking either.

23 Q. In paragraph 10 you explained how on 16 April 1998 you launched

24 the media centre in Pristina. How did you come to do that at that time?

25 Why?

Page 24064

1 A. At that time the number of foreign journalists coming to Pristina

2 was on the rise. Every day there were more and more of them. These

3 people had no place where they could send their reports from and they

4 didn't have a particular centre where they could receive assistance for

5 what they needed. I thought that chaos and misinformation should be

6 prevented and I thought that the opening of this kind of a centre would

7 be justified from a professional point of view, professionally justified.

8 Q. And was that solely your idea?

9 A. Yes, it was my idea and it was a few years old, but before that I

10 did not stand a chance of doing that because I had a lot of work for

11 different media. So in my view that was the last moment when the media

12 centre could have been set up.

13 Q. Was there no discussion about doing this with the Ministry of

14 Information, either at the republic level or in the province if there was

15 one at that time?

16 A. No, there was no discussion. The then-minister of information

17 never visited the media centre in Pristina. In the provincial government

18 there was a secretariat for information, but they either did not have the

19 capacity to do that or the wish to do that.

20 Q. And what individual or individuals are you talking about in the

21 secretariat of information? Can you give us their names?

22 A. Bosko Drobnjak, secretary for information.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: What do you mean, Mr. Mihajlovic, by the

24 provincial government?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The authorities in the province,

Page 24065

1 the Executive Council of Kosovo that existed at that time, in 1998.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: And who in April 1998 was head of that?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In April Veljko Odalovic was head

4 of the district, if I remember correctly.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

6 Mr. Hannis.

7 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

8 Q. In that paragraph 10 you mention: "We had the tacit agreement of

9 people from the government."

10 What do you mean by "tacit agreement"?

11 A. That they wouldn't create any problems for us.

12 Q. Okay. And who exactly were the people in the government you're

13 referring to there, is that the same Bosko Drobnjak or somebody else?

14 A. Well, regardless of whether it's the secretariat for information

15 or someone from the party that was in power, they could have created

16 problems for us if they wanted to. If they wanted to, they could have

17 told the manager of the hotel not to give us premises for this.

18 Q. And who in the party are you referring to then, can you give us

19 some names?

20 A. Well, perhaps the party at the provincial level or the local

21 Pristina level. It depends who'd be bothered by us.

22 Q. Well, you said you had the tacit agreement of people from the

23 government. Who in the party are you referring to by name?

24 A. Vojislav Zivkovic, president of the SPS of Kosovo and Metohija

25 primarily, he was a journalist beforehand.

Page 24066

1 Q. And did he facilitate the arrangements for you in the media

2 centre to have offices at the Grand Hotel?

3 A. No.

4 Q. You said: "We were allotted offices."

5 What exactly allotted those offices to you?

6 A. The manager of the Grand Hotel, his last name was Djorovic, I

7 can't remember his first name now.

8 Q. And did you have to pay for those rooms?

9 A. No. He knew that once the media centre was opened all the

10 journalists would be guests of his hotel, and quite literally once the

11 media centre was opened there was not a single free room at the hotel.

12 Q. And business at the bar probably improved greatly, right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Okay. You say in paragraph 9 -- I'm sorry, at paragraph 10: "My

15 goal was to try to help so that as little blood as possible would be

16 spilled in Kosovo, knowing that the media could calm the situation."

17 In what way did you see the media calming the situation?

18 A. I thought, and I still think, that in calming the situation the

19 most important thing is for the media to tell the truth, not to make

20 comments and not to add oil to the fire in critical times and at

21 flash-points of crisis.

22 Q. Well, you almost took the words out of my mouth. I was going to

23 ask you if in your experience as a professional journalist, wouldn't you

24 agree that often the media calms the situation the way gasoline calms a

25 fire?

Page 24067

1 A. I agree with you.

2 Q. You say in paragraph 11 that: "All operations by the police

3 against terror by Albanian separatists were condemned by the

4 international community."

5 I agree with you that the international community, for example,

6 in the form of United Nations resolutions, two of them in 1998, did

7 condemn police actions. But was it your experience that the entire

8 international community condemned all operations by the police?

9 A. These resolutions obviously show that they pertained to all

10 police actions.

11 Q. Well, in the terms of those resolutions themselves, weren't they

12 limited to what they described as disproportionate use of force against

13 civilians, not all force but disproportionate force against civilians,

14 right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 17 you talked about an event in the

17 village of Opterusa and you mention a German reporter Renata Flotau

18 talking to the victim of that crime. Do you know, did she write a report

19 on that?

20 A. I don't know if she wrote a report on that. I just know that she

21 found the victim and talked to her.

22 Q. Okay. In connection with her, in paragraph 26 you talk about

23 foreign journalists behaving in different ways, "there were those who

24 came to Kosovo with a set task, constantly searching for stories on how

25 Serbian police were killing Albanian children and true professionals who

Page 24068

1 wanted arguments and proof for everything."

2 How would you classify Renata Flotau, was she a true professional

3 or was she one of those others that you describe?

4 A. On the basis of what I managed to read in terms of what Renata

5 Flotau wrote, I think that she was a rather objective journalist. I say

6 rather objective.

7 Q. Did you find her rather reliable in terms of what she wrote?

8 A. Well, I've already said that there was 2.000 or 2.500 journalists

9 there during that one year, and I did not really have much time to check

10 each and every one's reliability.

11 Q. Okay. Did you see the story she wrote in Der Spiegel in April

12 1999 about what she described as Mr. Rugova's house arrest?

13 A. Yes, I think I did see that at the time.

14 Q. Did you do anything to try and check out whether that story was

15 accurate?

16 A. Yes, I was in Ibrahim Rugova's house. I took a group of several

17 foreign journalists there when the Russian ambassador went to see Rugova,

18 I think his last name was Kotov and I think his first name was Yuri, he

19 was the Russian ambassador to Belgrade.

20 Q. And if you recall the story that Renata Flotau wrote about that,

21 that was the very occasion when she managed to escape from the house

22 during that occasion when journalists were brought with the Russian

23 ambassador, right?

24 A. No. I found her in Ibrahim Rugova's house, and we exchanged a

25 few words while the journalists were filming Ibrahim Rugova and the

Page 24069

1 Russian ambassador. She wanted to know whether her car was still parked

2 in front of the Grand Hotel. I don't think she felt the need to escape

3 with the journalists because a day or two previously another group of

4 journalists had visited the house.

5 Q. You weren't aware that she had been in the house with Mr. Rugova

6 for several days before that occasion? You didn't know that, did you?

7 A. No.

8 Q. You in paragraph 18 say: "The conduct of the media in Albanian

9 at this time was strange."

10 I have a little trouble with the English in that sentence. It's

11 not clear to me, do you mean the conduct of the media in the Albanian

12 language; is that what you're referring to?

13 A. Yes, yes, that's what I was referring to. I thought and I still

14 think that it's very strange when the media failed to condemn violence.

15 Q. And you say: "There was no condemnation of crimes and only

16 crimes against Albanians were constantly emphasised," right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. So they are condemning crimes but only the ones in which they say

19 Albanians were victims, correct?

20 A. That's correct, yes.

21 Q. And wouldn't you agree with me at this time that couldn't some

22 Kosovo Albanian journalists say a similar thing about the Serbian media,

23 that is, that they were reporting only crimes by Albanians against

24 Serbians?

25 A. No, there were Serbian media who condemned only crimes against

Page 24070

1 Serbs, but there were other media which also condemned crimes against

2 Albanians, very seriously, very sharply.

3 Q. And which Serb media were those?

4 A. Vreme, Nin, Danas, Blic and probably some others in Belgrade.

5 Q. And in Kosovo were there any Serbian media that was condemning

6 crimes allegedly committed by Serbs against Albanians?

7 A. Yes, Radio Pristina condemned crimes against both Albanians and

8 Serbs.

9 Q. Okay. You say in paragraph 20 that: "While the media centre was

10 in operation from 18 April 1998 to 28 June 1999, all the news was written

11 solely by me."

12 A. That's correct.

13 Q. So how many people worked at the media centre? I think you said

14 before something like 20 people; is that right?

15 A. That's correct.

16 Q. And you were the only one that was writing any reports that went

17 out from the media centre?

18 A. That's correct.

19 Q. How many articles or reports did you issue from 18 April 1998 to

20 28 June 1999?

21 A. I don't know precisely, but on the average five to eight news

22 items per day on events in Kosovo.

23 Q. And this is on top of all the travelling you told us about, how

24 you were out in the field often, correct?

25 A. That's correct.

Page 24071

1 Q. Now, I have a question. You say to 28 June 1999. You stayed

2 another ten days or so after the Serbian forces left?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You say: "No one ever issued a denial for a single news item."

5 What do you mean exactly, that no one ever --

6 A. That's correct, yes.

7 Q. No individual ever complained about a story you wrote?

8 A. We didn't write stories. We only did news items, and no one ever

9 denied or challenged any single fact from those news items, either in the

10 domestic or the foreign media. And when I refer to domestic media I'm

11 referring to media both in the Albanian and the Serbian language.

12 JUDGE CHOWHAN: I just have a question here. I apologise.

13 MR. HANNIS: Yes.

14 JUDGE CHOWHAN: What were your sources for all this news that you

15 got because you were all the time in the Grand Hotel?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wasn't in the Grand Hotel all the

17 time. I was also on the field and my sources were my colleagues,

18 journalists, all over Kosovo, also the directors of clinics and hospitals

19 in the region, the chiefs of the districts, the heads of districts, the

20 presidents of local communes or municipalities, my colleagues, Albanians

21 from the area. When I got information from one source, I had to check it

22 with another source, verify it, and that's how I obtained my information.

23 JUDGE CHOWHAN: Thank you.


25 Q. Would you agree with me that between sometime in March 1999 until

Page 24072

1 June 1999 there wasn't really any Albanian media up and working in

2 Kosovo, right? All those publications had been shut down and most of

3 those reporters and writers had left or were in hiding, right?

4 A. There were no other media apart from the radio stations, the

5 radio Free Kosovo. Other media were not published because there was no

6 freedom of movement in the province due to the NATO air-strikes.

7 Q. And Free Kosovo radio never disputed any of the news items you

8 wrote during that time?

9 A. Well, I didn't have time always to listen to their news, but I

10 didn't deal with that. They mostly issued KLA communiques.

11 Q. You told us earlier when you were talking about the media that

12 was available in Kosovo, you talked about TV Tirana constantly

13 broadcasting a message for the Albanians to leave before the war. How

14 often, how frequently, were you listening to TV Tirana during that

15 time-period?

16 A. I couldn't do that very often, maybe once or twice a week;

17 however, the broadcasts of TV Tirana were spread around very quickly so

18 that all my colleagues, both Serbs and Albanians, would tell me what

19 Tirana had said on that day.

20 Q. Regarding your sources in addition to the answer you gave Judge

21 Chowhan a little while ago, did you not have sources in the MUP that

22 sometimes provided you information?

23 A. Yes, I did.

24 Q. And those sources in the MUP included some sources from the DB,

25 the state security, side of the Ministry of Interior, right?

Page 24073

1 A. No, my source was Bozidar Filic, and he confirmed information or

2 denied information I had received from the ground.

3 Q. Okay. Well, my question was in the plural, sources. So are you

4 saying your only source from the Ministry of the Interior was Bozidar

5 Filic and no one else?

6 A. Well, when it came to Pristina and large-scale clashes, there was

7 also a certain Colonel Sipka from Prizren who gave me information as to

8 what happened in Orahovac when there were big clashes in Orahovac; or

9 also people from the municipal police units on the ground when we were

10 there with our journalists.

11 Q. How about from the VJ, did you have any sources in the VJ in 1998

12 and 1999?

13 A. In 1998 in the VJ communication with the media was dealt with by

14 a man whose last name was Zirojevic, I don't know what his first name

15 was, but from time to time he communicated with journalists, he did so

16 very infrequently though.

17 Q. And you had no other source of information from the VJ other than

18 him; is that right?

19 A. I think that's right, yes.

20 Q. In paragraph 21 you talked about doctors from the hospitals in

21 Kosovo being a reliable source.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You mentioned --

24 A. Maybe the most reliable source.

25 Q. But you would agree their information is limited due to the fact

Page 24074

1 that they would only know about the people they actually saw and treated,

2 correct? They couldn't tell you about wounded or killed who were not in

3 their hospitals, not in their offices, right?

4 A. That's right, yes.

5 Q. And would you agree in 1998 and 1999 that there were a number of

6 Kosovo Albanians who might be reluctant to turn themselves in to the

7 hospital for fear of being suspected, maybe correctly or incorrectly, as

8 terrorists?

9 A. I think your statement is only partly true. The wounded had to

10 go to a hospital, otherwise they would die afterwards. There were no

11 illegal or local hospitals in that area that we knew about. Most of the

12 wounded were in the regular hospitals where they could get the best

13 medical assistance.

14 Q. And from all your sources including the MUP and the VJ you never

15 heard anything about field hospitals or independent doctors who were

16 treating terrorists and Kosovo Albanian civilians outside of the normal

17 hospitals?

18 A. I did hear there were such hospitals, but they treated mainly KLA

19 members. I don't think they treated civilians.

20 Q. And what's your basis for saying that, that they didn't treat

21 civilians? Who's your source?

22 A. My sources about this are my Albanian colleagues, journalists,

23 and also foreign journalists who had frequent contacts with KLA members

24 and commanders.

25 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, is this the time for the break?

Page 24075

1 JUDGE BONOMY: No, you have another 15 minutes.

2 MR. HANNIS: Okay. I can't keep track of our schedules when we

3 move around.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

5 MR. HANNIS: Sorry.

6 Q. You mentioned in that paragraph that you had requests from the

7 police not to publish names about killed or wounded until they had a

8 chance to inform the families. That makes sense. You say they also

9 requested that you delay publication so the families could be officially

10 notified. Did you report the names of Kosovo Albanians killed during

11 these anti-terrorist operations?

12 A. Whenever I was able to obtain the names I published them.

13 Q. I'd like to show you an exhibit now, it's Exhibit P3121. Well,

14 I'm sorry, let me withdraw that and move on to something else. I need to

15 come to that later.

16 You say in paragraph 22 that: "Generally everyone gave positive

17 assessments of the centre's work."

18 I assume from that that not everyone did. Who didn't give

19 positive assessments?

20 A. It was only the information centre of Ibrahim Rugova who didn't

21 and on only one occasion.

22 Q. Okay. You mention a particular German reporter named Erich

23 Rathfelder?

24 A. Rathfelder.

25 Q. Yes, I think this your statement it's spelled Ratfelder,

Page 24076

1 R-a-t-f-e-l-d-e-r, but from news stories on the internet it appears his

2 name may be spelled R-a-t-h-f-e-l-d-e-r. And you talk about him in

3 connection with a story about Orahovac. Do you remember that?

4 A. Yes, of course I do.

5 Q. And is it true that you personally spoke to him after that story

6 came out by him and told him that it might be better if he left because

7 his safety couldn't be guaranteed?

8 A. That's correct.

9 Q. And from whom was he endangered?

10 A. At that point I thought the greatest threat to him was the fact

11 that he had published false information which had no basis in fact and

12 that this information had in a way been ordered. And I felt that the

13 greatest threat to that journalist came from the people who had convinced

14 him to write that text in the way he did. I thought it had been

15 commissioned from him.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Is this in the statement, Mr. Hannis?

17 MR. HANNIS: Yes -- well, Your Honour, I think I'm looking now at

18 paragraph 22, but I think the first reference to this is in paragraph 18.

19 The witness says: "I remember an example when journalist Erich

20 Rathfelder who reported for several German papers wrote an article on the

21 alleged existence of a mass grave in Orahovac."

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, thank you.


24 Q. Are you aware, sir, that after the war in I think July 1999 there

25 was a German forensic team who went out to interview an individual who

Page 24077

1 had reported that information to Mr. Rathfelder?

2 A. No, I don't know that.

3 Q. And to actually do some digging in the area of Orahovac?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Are you aware of a story that Mr. Rathfelder wrote after he left

6 Serbia shortly after this incident in July or August of 1998?

7 A. No, I'm not aware of it.

8 Q. So you didn't tell him that he might be in danger from angry

9 Serbs because of the story he had written about Orahovac?

10 A. I didn't tell him that.

11 Q. You say in paragraph 27 that: "Members of international

12 organizations, the OSCE, KVM, and others, bombarded the public with news

13 of the abuse of Albanians. It was as if Serbian civilians did not

14 exist."

15 In addition to the OSCE and the KVM, what other international

16 organizations are you talking about there? Do you include the

17 International Red Cross?

18 A. Yes, the ICRC was there too.

19 Q. And do you include Human Rights Watch?

20 A. That's right, yes.

21 Q. Did you follow the Kosovo portion of the trial of Mr. Milosevic's

22 case?

23 A. No.

24 Q. How about this trial, have you followed this trial at all on TV

25 or in the media?

Page 24078

1 A. No.

2 Q. You are not familiar with the testimony of a Human Rights Watch

3 employee named Fred Abrahams?

4 A. No, no.

5 Q. And you weren't aware of a report he wrote about Serb victims in

6 Kosovo in 1998/1999?

7 A. I don't know about that report, I'm not aware of it.

8 Q. So you have not reviewed all the KVM reports or all the reports

9 of those international organizations, have you?

10 A. No, I haven't reviewed them. It was my job to take the

11 journalists where they said there was a mass grave for them to see

12 whether there was or wasn't a mass grave there. I myself did not know

13 whether there was or was not a mass grave at that particular place.

14 Q. Let me stop you. I'm not talking about Orahovac right now. I'm

15 talking about your statement in paragraph 27 when you say: "It was as if

16 Serbian civilians did not exist" and how members of all these

17 international organizations bombarded the public with news of abuse of

18 Albanians. And I'm just trying to get at the basis of your opinion for

19 stating that. The fact is you have not reviewed all those materials

20 because if you had, you would have seen that some of those organizations

21 were writing about Serb civilians as victims.

22 A. I didn't see anywhere the information that about a dozen villages

23 in Metohija had been emptied of Serbs, that there were no longer any

24 Serbs in those villages.

25 Q. Okay. In paragraph 36 you talk about when the NATO bombing

Page 24079

1 started and that there was fear of the bombs, fear of the KLA, among the

2 Albanians there was fear of the police and the army fighting against the

3 KLA. That was a problem for many of the Albanian civilians, wasn't it,

4 the fighting between the army, the police against the KLA because

5 civilians sometimes got caught in the middle, got injured or killed,

6 right?

7 A. Yes, you could never distinguish on the ground civilians from the

8 KLA to a large extent. There were people who wore civilian clothes but

9 carried weapons. You could see that from the cars even when we were

10 driving along the roads towards the villages.

11 Q. In paragraph 37 you mention that you published news on BBC that

12 the police arrested over 700 people who had committed crimes. When did

13 you publish that report approximately if you can recall?

14 A. I don't recall the exact date, but I think it was in May 1999. I

15 received this information from the chief of the Kosovo district, and this

16 information was heard at the session of the interim Executive Council

17 which was held on that day or the day before and this was a rather

18 reliable source of information regardless of the chaos prevailing in

19 Pristina at the time.

20 Q. So from the chief of the Kosovo district, would that be

21 Mr. Odalovic or are you talking about Mr. Andjelkovic? I'm not clear on

22 the --

23 A. Mr. Odalovic.

24 Q. Thank you. And did that information have a breakdown of the

25 types of crimes for which those 700 people were arrested?

Page 24080

1 A. No.

2 Q. So you don't know if any of those 700 crimes were war crimes

3 against civilians, right?

4 A. No, I don't know. I think they were different kinds of crimes.

5 Q. Do you know that -- whether the majority of them were for theft

6 and property-related crimes?

7 A. No, no, I don't know.

8 Q. You say in paragraph 38 that on the day that the Kumanovo

9 Agreement was signed, the streets of Pristina were suddenly full of

10 Albanians, which convinced me that only a small number had left

11 Pristina."

12 Were you not in Pristina every day basically in March and April

13 of 1999?

14 A. Not all day, but mostly in the evening I would be in Pristina.

15 Q. And in your travels from the field and from home to and from the

16 media centre during that time-period, you didn't notice hundreds or

17 thousands of civilians being directed toward the train station?

18 A. I didn't observe them being directed. I did, however, see groups

19 of people going in the direction of the railway station.

20 Q. Huge groups of people, right?

21 A. Well, let's say dozens of people in a group, just as I saw groups

22 of people moving towards the railway station in Kosovo Polje and towards

23 the bus station in Pristina.

24 Q. Did Mr. Filic share information with you from the MUP about the

25 number of Siptars or Albanian -- Kosovar Albanian civilians who had left

Page 24081

1 the country in the first four or five weeks of the war?

2 A. I don't think he did. We received information of that type from

3 the foreign media, who reported larger and larger numbers every day.

4 Q. And did you accept their reports as credible?

5 A. I had no possibility of transmitting those -- that information.

6 I could only see that CNN and other stations were broadcasting this

7 information, but I did not have any opportunity to go and see for myself

8 in Macedonia those camps.

9 Q. And you didn't make any inquiry of your sources from the VJ or

10 the MUP about the number of civilians that had left or were leaving?

11 A. No, I didn't have many contacts with Mr. Filic at the time. I

12 saw him very rarely.

13 MR. HANNIS: Your Honours, could we take the break now?

14 JUDGE BONOMY: In a moment, yes, Mr. Hannis.

15 Was there no reporting from the border or the area near the

16 border by Serb media?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I can explain why.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, I'd be interested to know.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Serbian media from Pristina

20 found it very difficult to move to the borders with Albania and Macedonia

21 because parts of the road were cut off and they couldn't move. There

22 were check-points held by the police in some places, by the KLA in

23 others, so you couldn't pass through.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

25 We need a break at this stage, Mr. Mihajlovic, so while we have

Page 24082

1 that could you please leave the courtroom with the usher and we shall see

2 you in 20 minutes.

3 We shall resume at five minutes past 4.00.

4 [The witness stands down]

5 --- Recess taken at 3.46 p.m.

6 --- On resuming at 4.06 p.m.

7 [The witness takes the stand]

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis.

9 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. Mr. Mihajlovic, would it surprise you to learn that in a MUP

11 report of the 1st of May, 1999, it was being reported by the MUP staff in

12 Pristina to the Ministry of the Interior in Belgrade that approximately

13 715.000 Siptars had left the country by April 30th of 1999? You were

14 aware that those kind of numbers of people were leaving, weren't you?

15 A. I knew that a number of people were leaving the province, but

16 that figure would surprise me because at that point I thought the number

17 was just too high.

18 Q. But you have no reason based on your personal experience to

19 disagree with what's in the MUP reports, do you?

20 A. If that is an accurate information, then I have no reason to

21 disagree.

22 Q. I'd like to show you an exhibit, it's P3111, this is a

23 photograph, and I want to ask you if you can identify any of the people

24 in this particular photo.

25 A. Yes, I can recognise the guy who I guess is sitting in blue

Page 24083

1 T-shirt.

2 Q. Second from the left on the front row?

3 A. Correct, yes.

4 Q. Who is he, what's his name?

5 A. I think this is the cameraman of Associated Press. I think his

6 name is Srdjan.

7 Q. Do you know his last name?

8 A. I think it's Nedeljkovic, but I'm not sure.

9 Q. And the Associated Press from where? Do you know what office he

10 was from?

11 A. I think it's Associated Press from Belgrade.

12 Q. Do you not recognise any of the other people in the photograph?

13 A. Not as far as I can see.

14 Q. Okay. I want to ask you about where your offices were in the

15 Grand Hotel, what floor were you on?

16 A. My offices were on the first floor of the Grand Hotel.

17 Q. And from April 1998 until June 1999?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Were you aware of in the summer of 1998 a number of politicians

20 coming down from Belgrade, specifically Mr. Minic, Mr. Andjelkovic,

21 Mr. Matkovic, and Mr. Sainovic? Did you know about that?

22 A. Yes, it wasn't only them. Numerous ministers from the Government

23 of Serbia used to come as well as vice-deputy prime minister Vuk

24 Draskovic, all of them would come occasionally to Pristina and I would

25 normally see them either at the Grand Hotel or at some public functions

Page 24084

1 that they attended. Naturally Milutinovic, president of Serbia, came to

2 have talks with Albanians a bit prior to that.

3 Q. Were you aware of a creation of a body known as the temporary or

4 provisional Executive Council for Kosovo?

5 A. Yes, yes.

6 Q. And who was a member of that as far as you knew or who was the

7 head of that?

8 A. Zoran Andjelkovic headed the provisional Executive Council, and

9 as for members there was Bosko Drobnjak for information. For information

10 of minorities the name of the member -- he was a journalist from the Roma

11 desk of Radio Pristina. I can't -- I will remember his name a bit later,

12 it will come to me. And I think that they were split up in various

13 fields, agriculture, economics. I remember the name of the person for

14 agriculture and then there were various other fields that people were in

15 charge of.

16 Q. Were you aware or did you ever hear of a body called the Joint

17 Command for Kosovo and Metohija? Have you ever heard that term?

18 A. In 1998 and in 1999 I never heard of that term and I didn't know

19 that there existed some sort of a Joint Command.

20 Q. My question is: Did you ever hear of the term before today?

21 A. I think that I read in some Belgrade papers recently, in recent

22 months, about that term; prior to that, I didn't know about it.

23 Q. Did you -- how often did you see Mr. Minic, Mr. Andjelkovic, and

24 Mr. Matkovic, and Mr. Sainovic in Kosovo in 1998, let's say between July

25 20th and the end of October 1998, just during that time-period, how often

Page 24085

1 would you see them?

2 A. Perhaps five or six times.


4 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have nothing against

5 these questions, but if somebody poses a question relating to a group:

6 How many times did you see four people, then that insinuates something

7 because previously the witness spoke about there being more politicians.

8 Well, why doesn't he ask about five persons rather than four. Did you

9 understand what I meant.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: I think, Mr. Hannis, that this has to be put in a

11 different way.

12 MR. HANNIS: I understand, Your Honour. I was trying to save

13 time, but I think I lost it.

14 Q. How often during that time-period did you see Mr. Sainovic

15 between mid-July 1998 and the end of October 1998 in Pristina?

16 A. Perhaps three or four times.

17 Q. And during that time were you in Pristina every day?

18 A. Almost every day.

19 Q. And I think you told us before, especially in the evenings,

20 right, because you might be out in the field during the day?

21 A. Correct.

22 Q. Thank you. I want to ask you about an incident that occurred in

23 the area of Donje and Gornje Obrinje at the end of September 1998. Do

24 you know what I'm referring to?

25 A. I don't know which one you have in mind.

Page 24086

1 Q. You're not aware of an event in which it was alleged that a

2 number of civilians had been massacred by Serbian forces in the area of

3 those villages around the 26th of September, 1998?

4 A. Could you help me with this, how was this done?

5 Q. Well, there was a lot of international press about this event.

6 You don't recall it?

7 A. Just tell me how that event came about and then it will come to

8 me.

9 Q. Well, it's alleged that several members of a family called

10 Delilaj, D-e-l-i-l-a-j I think is one of the spellings, including a few

11 small children under the age of 10 were killed during the anti-terrorist

12 actions in that area. And you don't know about that?

13 A. If this involves a group of people who were killed on a

14 trailer -- on a tractor-trailer, then yes, I remember that event.

15 Q. No, it's not on a tractor-trailer, it's in their homes and in the

16 forest where they were running and hiding around their home. That still

17 doesn't ring a bell for you?

18 A. No, not at all.

19 Q. Well, let me show you Exhibit P2827, if I could. This is a memo

20 to President Milutinovic from the deputy minister of information. That's

21 the cover sheet, and if we could go to the next page in both English and

22 B/C/S. You see this is dated I think the 1st of October, 1998, and the

23 deputy minister is advising President Milutinovic that: "Reports in the

24 western media and in the Albanian press about an alleged massacre of

25 Albanian civilians by Serbian police in Gornje Obrinje village in Kosovo

Page 24087

1 has assumed the proportions of a campaign in the international media."

2 And the second paragraph says: "It's obvious that the publicity

3 about the alleged massacre is media manipulation."

4 And near the third paragraph starts: "Officials of the Ministry

5 of the Interior deny that its members conducted operations against

6 civilians, adding that an investigation would be launched."

7 If we could go to the third page of the English.

8 "An investigation would be launched into the alleged crime which

9 they learned about from the Western media."

10 So the MUP knew about it, the deputy minister of information knew

11 about it and was reporting it to President Milutinovic. You didn't know

12 about it?

13 A. I don't remember. Most likely I had a news report on this, but I

14 don't remember this particular event. There were quite a lot of them.

15 Q. Quite a lot of them that reached the level of the president of

16 the republic?

17 MR. IVETIC: Objection, calls for speculation.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis, I think that may be right.

19 MR. HANNIS: Okay.

20 Q. And, sir, I will advise you that this matter was also discussed

21 in a meeting of the Supreme Defence Council on the 4th of October, 1998,

22 with Mr. Milosevic, but I guess --

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. -- if you didn't hear about it, you didn't hear about it.

25 And none of your Western colleagues who were hanging around the

Page 24088

1 media centre at that time mentioned it to you?

2 A. Most likely they told me, but I truly don't remember that

3 particular detail.

4 Q. But you told us before that it was your practice to check out

5 stories when you heard things. In your statement you told us about how

6 you rushed to the stadium when you heard Western media reports about

7 100.000 civilians locked up in the stadium. Wouldn't you have tried to

8 check this out if you had been told about it, the killing of small

9 children by Serbian police?

10 A. Correct.

11 Q. Was there a procedure for vetting the journalists that were going

12 to be allowed to stay in Kosovo once the NATO bombing started, do you

13 know about that?

14 A. I think that in Belgrade there was a set procedure whereby from

15 military press centre they received some passes. In Pristina all of the

16 foreign and domestic journalists could stay throughout the entire time,

17 before bombing and during the bombing without any formal procedures or

18 passes. They just needed to have a formal ID from their media house.

19 That's all they needed, at least in the media centre.

20 Q. Well, it was not your job in the media centre to make that kind

21 of decision, right, about what foreign journalists were allowed to stay;

22 that wouldn't be for you, would it?

23 A. No, that wasn't my job, I wasn't authorised to make such

24 decisions.

25 Q. And you're not -- do you -- did you know a journalist named

Page 24089

1 Antonio Russo who was in Kosovo in 1999 before the war?

2 A. I can't remember. As I told you, there were 2500 journalists

3 there and I couldn't remember all their names.

4 Q. And you're not aware that there was a contingent of foreign

5 journalists who were told shortly before the bombing that they would have

6 to leave because they weren't considered good journalists or the kind

7 that was wanted?

8 A. That was the decision of the Government of Serbia, or to be more

9 precise, Ministry of Information, we had no dealings with them.

10 Q. If we could look at Exhibit P2900. Mr. Mihajlovic, I have a

11 couple questions for you about that. This is part of a report from Zoran

12 Andjelkovic as president of the Executive Council, and it was sent to

13 President Milutinovic. I would actually like to go to page 13 of the

14 English and I think we need page 9 of the B/C/S.

15 Sir, on the screen can you see the paragraph headed: "The

16 information secretariat"? I think it's the first full paragraph on that

17 page.

18 A. [In English] Mm-hm.

19 Q. Under that the second paragraph reads in my translation: "A week

20 before the criminal aggression, with the involvement of the Ministry of

21 Information, newspapers in the Albanian language which were sowing hate,

22 discord, inviting NATO to come, and which contributed to a great extent

23 to the aggression of the NATO criminals, were abolished."

24 You knew about that, right?

25 A. Just a minute, please, so I can see this. Yes, I knew about

Page 24090

1 that.

2 Q. And the next paragraph says: "On the eve of the bombardment, a

3 meeting was held with the directors and editors of electronic media and

4 newspapers in Kosovo and Metohija, and the heads of the Pristina bureau.

5 Preparations for working in the conditions of war were discussed on that

6 occasion."

7 Did you attend that meeting?

8 A. I don't think I was at the meeting. There was Miladin Jovic

9 there, director of Radio TV Pristina.

10 Q. Okay. And do you know who the heads of the Pristina bureau would

11 be that are referred to in that sentence?

12 A. Yes, I do. Heads of offices Tanjug, Beta, and there was some

13 other media outlets who had their field offices in Pristina, and I guess

14 this pertains to field offices of the Belgrade media outlet.

15 Q. Okay. And you received no information from the information

16 secretariat about any foreign journalists that were being disapproved of

17 and asked to leave at this time?

18 A. No, I received no information from the secretariat of

19 information. I just saw that people packed up their belongings, got into

20 the cars, and left Pristina.

21 Q. And the last thing I want to ask you about is a report attributed

22 to you. This is Exhibit P3123. And I'm sorry, Mr. Mihajlovic, I don't

23 have this in Serbian. We just have it in English. It's a story that was

24 attributed to you as a report that you made in February of 1991 reporting

25 about matters in Kosovo. And I want to go down to the sixth paragraph --

Page 24091

1 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, if I could just intervene at this

2 point. I don't know -- this is the second time we've received something

3 from the OTP that appears to have some sort of redaction at the top that

4 I can't see quite why there would even be a redaction at the top. I'm

5 wondering if this is going to become a practice, I want to have official

6 copies of documents. I don't know why -- what is being redacted here

7 would possibly be redacted for.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis, can you help?

9 MR. HANNIS: It has nothing to do with content, Your Honour, it

10 has to do with a source, received from. And I don't think it's pertinent

11 or necessary for the question I want to ask this witness about something

12 he may or may not have written.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah. Probably you should have indicated that was

14 the basis for it in your intimation of this document to avoid this

15 anxiety in the presentation and also to give the Defence an opportunity

16 to consider the position fully. So please try to do that as far as

17 possible in future.

18 MR. HANNIS: I will, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Proceed with your question.

20 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

21 Q. Actually, I guess I'll start with the sixth paragraph. It says:

22 "A survey by the most popular Albanian-language newspaper," I can't

23 pronounce the name, "Zeri i Rinise, indicated that most Albanians think

24 the solution to Kosovo's problems lies in the province merging with

25 Albania. More than half of the respondents thought that this could

Page 24092

1 happen very quickly with the intervention of a foreign force. Only 7 per

2 cent of the respondents supported dialogue with the Serbs, while 31 per

3 cent were in favour of an armed struggle against Serbia."

4 The next paragraph is where I have a question. You say: "On the

5 ordinary side, the Serbian authorities did not have much choice when it

6 comes to Kosovo and Metohija. They can continue the present policy in

7 which Albanians have to all intents and purposes been eliminated from all

8 leaderships, although it must be admitted that in the political and

9 particularly economic sense, this policy costs a lot and produces few

10 results."

11 Is that correct, that in 1991 most of all the Albanians had been

12 removed from leadership positions both in government and business in

13 Kosovo; that's correct, isn't it?

14 A. That's correct except for the term "removed" as far as I

15 remember, and I remember that period well. All of the Albanians signed a

16 statement to the effect that they did not wish to work for as long as

17 Serbia ruled Kosovo and they left their jobs at the urging of Ibrahim

18 Rugova, leader of the Democratic Alliance.

19 Q. Well, I'm reading an English translation that says "eliminated

20 from all leaderships." So you disagree that that's the term you used in

21 the -- your report?

22 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, again, we do not know this is the

23 report -- I've been told this is the only copy of it, so I don't know how

24 it's now become a translation --

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic, the question is being asked based on

Page 24093

1 this English version of the report.

2 MR. IVETIC: From a source that we don't know.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Let's hear what the man who wrote the article has

4 to say unprompted by you, please.

5 Mr. Hannis.

6 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

7 Q. Well, I guess in fairness, sir, do you remember writing this

8 article?

9 A. No need for that. Somebody can eliminate you or you may

10 eliminate yourself; at any rate, you are eliminated.

11 Q. Do you remember writing this article? You'll have to answer out

12 loud.

13 A. I suppose that I wrote it.

14 Q. And on the second page there's one other thing I want to ask you

15 about, it's the third paragraph up from the bottom. And you mention:

16 "... that the Albanians make up 90 per cent of the population." Did you

17 write that?

18 A. Yes, I wrote that.

19 Q. And that was accurate at that time, wasn't it, in 1999 in Kosovo?

20 A. At that time that was the fact circulated in all Albanian media

21 sources in Pristina, and I as journalist used that fact.

22 Q. And I assume you used it because you believed it was accurate and

23 correct, right?

24 A. Yes, certainly. That was the customary fact circulated by the

25 media.

Page 24094

1 Q. Thank you.

2 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I have no further questions.

3 Q. Thank you, Mr. Mihajlovic.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Hannis.

5 Questioned by the Court:

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Mihajlovic, on the last part of your evidence

7 just now you referred to Albanians signing a statement that they didn't

8 wish to work for as long as Serbia ruled Kosovo and they left their jobs

9 at the urging of Rugova. We've heard some evidence of a requirement that

10 employees had to sign a declaration of loyalty to the Serbian state and

11 that that caused resentment around the time that you're talking about.

12 What's the relationship between that and the statement that you're

13 referring to?

14 A. I saw one such statement at the time. These are individual

15 documents and some heads of some companies demanded that their workers do

16 that, but that wasn't a widespread occurrence throughout Kosovo.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: I have one other question. It may be I've not

18 picked up the answer and should have done. In your outline of your work

19 experience you say that in 1999 and 2000 you were an AFP reporter. What

20 is AFP reporter?

21 A. I was a producer at AFP for the team of journalists that were in

22 northern Kosovo, Agence France-Presse, that's what they are.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: And it goes on also to say that you were an ATPN

24 producer, what is that?

25 A. Associated Press Television News.

Page 24095

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE CHOWHAN: May I request you for some information. Now, you

4 were associated with the BBC?

5 A. Yes.

6 JUDGE CHOWHAN: Did you ever write any story for the BBC

7 pertaining to this crisis and with your suggestions about any solution to

8 this problem? Can you think of, can you give a date about it? Thank

9 you.

10 A. Yes, I can remember. I worked for the Serbian section of the

11 BBC; however, they do not publish commentary or columns. They only carry

12 news reports and interviews of course. So I never really had occasion to

13 present my own opinion.

14 JUDGE CHOWHAN: Were you interviewed by BBC on this crisis, on

15 this problem?

16 A. I was interviewed by the BBC in 2000, when I had already left

17 Kosovo, and it had to do with the crisis.

18 JUDGE CHOWHAN: But that related to the crisis or something else?

19 A. In relation to Kosovo.

20 JUDGE CHOWHAN: Do you remember its date, no?

21 A. No, I don't.

22 JUDGE CHOWHAN: Did you mention about this report that you have

23 given in February 1991, did you refer to this in your interview with the

24 BBC in 2000?

25 A. I don't think so. I don't remember whether I mentioned it.

Page 24096

1 JUDGE CHOWHAN: You were never questioned on this report by the

2 BBC correspondent?

3 A. No, no.

4 JUDGE CHOWHAN: Thank you.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic, re-examination?

7 MR. IVETIC: No, Your Honour.

8 Thank you, Mr. Mihajlovic.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Mihajlovic, that completes your evidence.

10 Thank you for coming here to give evidence. You may now leave the

11 courtroom with the usher. Thank you.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13 [The witness withdrew]

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic, your next witness?

15 MR. IVETIC: Our next is Mr. Aleksandar Kostic.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

17 [The witness entered court]

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Good afternoon, Mr. Kostic.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Would you please make the solemn declaration to

21 speak the truth by reading aloud the document now being shown to you.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

23 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Please be seated.

25 You will now be examined by Mr. Ivetic on behalf of Mr. Lukic.

Page 24097

1 Mr. Ivetic.

2 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.


4 [Witness answered through interpreter]

5 Examination by Mr. Ivetic:

6 Q. Good day, Mr. Kostic.

7 A. Good day.

8 Q. If I could ask you just for purposes of the record if you could

9 please enter your full name, first and last.

10 A. My name is Aleksandar Kostic.

11 Q. And could you also give us a brief overview of your biography,

12 including a synopsis of your educational background.

13 A. I was born on the 25th of March, 1965, in Belgrade. I have a

14 degree in law. I started working in the Ministry of the Interior in

15 1997. My first job was at the department for the border police foreign

16 nationals in the seat or headquarters of the Ministry of the Interior of

17 the Republic of Serbia. From there I was sent to train for working in

18 the crime police, and that took a while. Then I was the disciplinary

19 judge in the Ministry of the Interior from 2000 to 2004, and on 2001 I

20 was assigned to work in the department for combatting organized crime and

21 I work in the division for searching for missing persons. I still work

22 there and now I head this service that is now called the service for

23 revealing war crimes at the crime police department of the MUP of the

24 Republic of Serbia.

25 Q. We'll get back to that specific service or department that you

Page 24098

1 worked for and are now still at later on. First I'd like to ask you,

2 after the conclusion of the war in -- that is to say that -- the war in

3 Kosovo with NATO, when was it that the Serbian MUP began intensifying its

4 efforts to try to conduct investigations into uncovering potential war

5 crimes that may have occurred during the course of that war?

6 A. As far as I know, in May 2001 after mass graves were found in the

7 territory of the Republic of Serbia, the Ministry of the Interior took

8 measures in order to collect information and evidence in relation to

9 these mass graves. With that in mind, a working group was set up by the

10 minister of the interior, to the best of my knowledge, and the then chief

11 of the public security sector, Mr. Sreten Lukic, was the head of that

12 group. This group consisted of professionals from the crime police

13 department, people who were capable of dealing with this subject matter

14 and who had no dilemmas in terms of prosecuting their colleagues and all

15 other people responsible for those crimes. Of course the primary task

16 was to discover whether these mass graves and these bodies were the

17 result of crimes and to establish how it was that they were killed and

18 whether these people were victims.

19 As the proceedings went along, they were based on where the mass

20 graves were found. So for Batajnica, for the mass grave there, it was

21 the district court in Belgrade that was in charge; for the mass grave in

22 Perucac, the district prosecutor's office and the district court in

23 Uzice; and for the Petrovo Selo mass grave it was the prosecutor's office

24 and the court in Negotin that had jurisdiction. What I know is that the

25 material collected by this work group was based on masses of interviews

Page 24099

1 with all the persons who could have some knowledge about the mass graves.

2 All these reports were submitted to the prosecutor's offices that were in

3 charge.

4 After that, on the 1st of October, 2001, a division for

5 investigating war crimes was established, and this is the first

6 organizational unit that was specialised for this in the Republic of

7 Serbia. If we look at all the state authorities that had to do with the

8 investigation of war crimes, I can say that the war crimes prosecutor's

9 office and the chamber for war crimes of the district court in Belgrade

10 were established only two and a half years after that. That is to say

11 that the MUP then expressed its readiness to have the truth uncovered in

12 relation to war crimes in the territory of the former SFRY.

13 Q. And you mentioned that this was at the time when Mr. Sreten Lukic

14 was head of the -- chief of the public security sector. Do you know when

15 Sreten Lukic became chief of the public security sector of the MUP of the

16 Republic of Serbia?

17 A. I can say that after the armed conflict in Kosovo was brought to

18 an end, Sreten Lukic was transferred to become head of the department of

19 the -- the department for border police and foreign nationals at the seat

20 or headquarters of the Ministry of the Interior, and at the same time he

21 was assistant chief of the public security sector. He was in that

22 position until January 2001, the 31st of January, 2001, when he was

23 appointed chief of the public security sector after the democratic

24 changes took place in the Republic of Serbia.

25 Q. Now, if we could take things step by step. You've talked about

Page 24100

1 the various organs within the MUP that were activated to undertake an

2 invigorated investigation into these matters. Irrespective of the

3 precise position that you held, at what point in time did you personally

4 begin to work or were tasked in the MUP with trying to uncover potential

5 war crimes as one of your primary functions?

6 A. On the 1st of October, 2001, a division for investigating war

7 crimes and searching for missing persons was founded in the department

8 for combatting organized crime in the Ministry of the Interior. The head

9 of this division, Dragan Furdulovic, was a member of the work group that

10 had dealt with the uncovering of war crimes on behalf of the ministry.

11 So that shows the continuity and the work involved. I specifically on

12 the 27th of November, 2001, went to work in the division for war crimes

13 and I have been working on the investigation of war crimes since then.

14 Q. After the democratic changes, as you stated, took place in Serbia

15 in the change-over from the previous government of Slobodan Milosevic to

16 the democratic coalition, who within the MUP of the Republic of Serbia

17 were the impulses for this increased intensification upon investigating

18 or uncovering war crimes?

19 A. At that time Dusan Mihajlovic, the minister, and the chief of the

20 sector, Sreten Lukic, gave that impulse to have the perpetrators of war

21 crimes investigated and uncovered and also to deal with the mass graves

22 that were found in the territory of the Republic of Serbia. They gave

23 this initial impulse in the ministry, and as I said this was the first

24 organizational form that dealt with this professionally in the Republic

25 of Serbia, that dealt with war crimes professionally that is.

Page 24101

1 Q. If we could focus a little bit more on some more concrete details

2 beyond this initial impulse given by the minister and Mr. Lukic. Could

3 you tell us, you mentioned, I believe, the working group. What kind of

4 authority did this working group receive from the minister and the chief

5 of the public security sector Sreten Lukic in performing its tasks?

6 A. As far as I know, the work group had the broadest possible

7 authority, that is to say that the members of the work group could

8 conduct interviews with all persons that could lead to knowledge in

9 relation to mass graves, that is to say members of the MUP irrespective

10 of their rank, position, as well as civilians who had some knowledge

11 about that. That is indeed something that the work group did carry

12 through.

13 Q. And you said -- I believe you said at the time that the resulting

14 documentation from this group was handed over to the competent

15 prosecutors in the various regions. I don't think you mentioned when

16 precisely the special prosecutor's office for war crimes was created, if

17 you could just finish that part of the picture.

18 A. Since the first initiative came from the MUP to have war crimes

19 investigated and these crimes were being dealt with by regular courts

20 that did not have the capacity to deal with something like that, and as a

21 rule it was the prosecutor's offices that were in charge of the

22 proceedings, it was believed at the time that there was a need to have a

23 specialised prosecutor's office and a special court. Before the law was

24 passed on what the role of the state organs would be in respect of

25 prosecuting war crimes, and that is when the organs were stated that

Page 24102

1 would be dealt with, it is regular prosecutor's offices and courts that

2 actually dealt with this beforehand with more or less success.

3 As far as I know, this new law was passed in 2003, and that is

4 when the special prosecutor's office was established and the court, or

5 rather, a special chamber in the Belgrade district court. This also

6 established the service that had already existed within the MUP, that is

7 to say that the law only confirmed something that had already existed as

8 an organizational form within the Ministry of the Interior.

9 Q. Now, you discussed the initial impulse relating to the mass

10 graves at Batajnica and two other locations. What else did the MUP do

11 concretely to try to uncover war crimes during the reign of Sreten

12 Lukic's authority as chief of the RJB and as assistant minister of the

13 interior? What other cases were opened and investigated?

14 A. The first case done by the MUP of Serbia at the time when Sreten

15 Lukic was not the chief of the sector was the Podujevo case which is well

16 known. It concerns the murder of 19 civilians during the armed conflict

17 in Kosovo in late March, and that was the first case to be prosecuted in

18 the Republic of Serbia. It was prosecuted, or rather, a criminal report

19 was filed with the prosecutor's office in Prokoplje, and the trial was

20 held by the Court in Prokoplje. The trial could not be completed

21 successfully in Prokoplje, so that it was delegated to the district court

22 in Belgrade. At that time the task of the department for investigating

23 war crimes was to help collect evidence concerning the paramilitary unit

24 of Skorpions, which was practically within the reserve units of the MUP,

25 to identify the perpetrators, to find witnesses, and provide security for

Page 24103

1 them because the witnesses were Albanians travelling to testify from

2 Great Britain and from Kosovo. Also, to help with the protection of a

3 witness testifying in the case, this was Goran Stoparic, who also

4 testified here. MUP conducted all the activities concerning his

5 protection. This was a case which started during the armed conflict in

6 Kosovo and continued later on after the conflicts had ended and the

7 department for the detection of war crimes was in charge of it. As

8 regards war crimes, a working group of the department identified two

9 cases based on evidence collected concerning mass graves. The first of

10 these cases concerned the identity papers of the Berisha family, so that

11 was the Berisha Suva Reka case; the second case was the Bytyqi brothers

12 case, those brothers were found in the mass grave at Petrovo Selo. The

13 first two cases which the department for the investigation of war crimes

14 and search for missing persons dealt with were these two.

15 Immediately after that, the next case was opened, and that was

16 Sjeverin. It concerns the kidnapping and murder of more than 17 persons

17 in 1992 in a place called Mioce. The first criminal report was filed by

18 the department against six persons for which there were grounds to

19 suspect that they had committed this crime, these were Milan Lukic and

20 five others. Milan Lukic was unavailable, the other five were arrested

21 and detained and brought to the investigating judge in the district court

22 in Belgrade. At the time it was the district prosecutor's office in

23 Belgrade in charge, and Vladimir Vukcevic, the deputy prosecutor, was put

24 in charge of the case. He then became the prosecutor for war crimes.

25 These were the first cases we dealt with.

Page 24104

1 What I omitted to say was the following. Sreten Lukic initiated,

2 and the minister of the interior of course, initiated the gathering of

3 documentation concerning all security-related events on the territory of

4 Kosovo and Metohija, all the available documentation, that is, which were

5 to be the basis for the prosecution of all persons responsible. This is

6 called the dossier for Kosovo and Metohija. Also, in the Ministry of the

7 Interior activities were undertaken with a view to collecting information

8 on all kidnapped and missing persons on the territory of Kosovo and

9 Metohija, and a file was created compatible with the files of

10 international organizations. Documentation and information was collected

11 about missing and kidnapped persons, with a view to prosecuting those

12 responsible.

13 At the beginning of the department's work, documentation was also

14 collected on crimes committed by the KLA in Kosovo so that in cooperation

15 with the other security structures work was carried out on collecting and

16 sorting documentation concerning those crimes. These were sorted by

17 place of commission, by person, and the entire documentation was

18 delivered to The Hague Tribunal through the Ministry of Justice. So this

19 was a vast amount of work for a new organizational unit, a newly

20 established one, so to speak.

21 Q. Just so that we can go back and highlight some things you

22 mentioned the one incident Sjeverin. Am I correct that that relates to a

23 time-period even before the Kosovo war? Were there other cases -- and if

24 so, were there other cases that predated the Kosovo conflict for which

25 the new MUP leadership for which Minister Mihajlovic and Assistant

Page 24105

1 Minister Sreten Lukic undertook efforts to investigate and uncover

2 potential war crimes?

3 A. Yes, I can say that these were three cases, the first was Severin

4 which I mentioned, the second was Strpce, it's an event from 1993, a

5 kidnapping of persons of Muslim ethnicity in Bosnia-Herzegovina and that

6 trial was conducted before the high court in Bijelo Polje against Nebojsa

7 Ranisavljevic and the role of the department for investigating war crimes

8 was to identify witnesses, to secure witnesses, and to successfully bring

9 them before the high court in Bijelo Polje. That was a complex task

10 which required cooperation with the Montenegrin police based on an order

11 issued by the president of the high court in Bijelo Polje and all these

12 witnesses came from the territory of two towns in Serbia, Jagodina and

13 Despotovac. All these individuals were provided with security and

14 support. They testified before the high court in Bijelo Polje, and the

15 president of the high court sent a letter to the ministry thanking him

16 for the cooperation of the members of the MUP of Serbia.

17 The third case, one of the best-known cases, was the murder of

18 200 prisoners on the Ovcara farm in November 1991 --

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Kostic, Ovcara is way off beam as far as this

20 trial is concerned. You referred to a case called Sjeverin. Now, is

21 that the name of a place, is that the name of people involved, what is it

22 and has it got anything to do with Kosovo?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It has nothing to do with Kosovo --

24 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Now, that's enough for me for the

25 moment.

Page 24106

1 Please listen to the questions you're being asked. Please --

2 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, he did listen to the question I asked.

3 I specifically asked about items outside of Kosovo to show the new

4 leadership and the route that they were taking. So he's answering

5 exactly the question I asked.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah. Mr. Ivetic, I'm more concerned also with

7 the fact that it's in 1992, and I'm principally concerned that we're

8 losing track of all these -- at least I am losing track, I'm sorry.

9 You're giving answers that are far too long for me to correlate them as

10 you go along. And there you are, there's a good example, I've lost the

11 thread of what the questioning is because of the way in which you're

12 answering these questions. Please listen and just -- obviously I 've

13 made a mistake in thinking you shouldn't have been dealing with that

14 area, but please try to concentrate your answer, give us briefer answers

15 that deal only with the essential facts. And if Mr. Ivetic wants more

16 information, then he can ask you for more information.

17 Mr. Ivetic.

18 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.

19 Q. And you mentioned Ovcara, I think that's enough for that. And

20 are these all cases that had not been -- strike that. I think the

21 point's made with respect to that.

22 Now, these cases are all now pending within the -- within the

23 domestic courts of the Republic of Serbia or the -- in some cases now

24 it's the Republic of Montenegro; is that correct?

25 A. Yes, yes. Your Honour, I just wish to clarify that the

Page 24107

1 department for the investigation of war crimes and the search for missing

2 persons is competent for the territory of the entire former FRY -- SFRY,

3 the former Yugoslavia. So we need not deal with crimes in Kosovo alone

4 but all crimes committed on the territory of the former Socialist

5 Federative Republic of Yugoslavia. That is why I replied as I did.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Kostic, you're much younger than I am and

7 therefore have more time in hand to deal with the issues of the Balkans,

8 but I have more than enough on my plate dealing with issues relating to

9 Kosovo and how they were handled rather than exploring what happened

10 throughout the whole of the former Yugoslavia.

11 Mr. Ivetic.

12 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour, but I would also note it

13 goes to show the type of police officer Sreten Lukic was when he came

14 into a position where he had power to investigate crimes and undertake

15 actions, which I believe is a vital part of these proceedings.

16 Q. Now, Mr. Kostic, we've seen some documentation from some various

17 organs, and you've mentioned several of them. Could you just very

18 briefly take us through the genesis of the original working group up

19 until the -- the -- um -- organization as it is now known so that we

20 could just find out exactly what -- when we were talking about the

21 documents -- talking about the groups we're talking about the same

22 essential structure within the MUP.

23 A. In the course of May 2001 a working group was formed dealing with

24 the investigation of war crimes, and in view of the fact that a need

25 arose to establish a permanent organizational unit to deal with this. On

Page 24108

1 the 1st of October the department was formed within the section for

2 organized crime and Dragan Furdulovic was the first chief --

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Can I ask you a question about that. That's twice

4 you've called it an organizational unit, but you also told us that it was

5 only officially established at the same time as the war crimes

6 prosecutor's office was established two years later. Now, what actually

7 happened in 2001, was there a decision issued, some sort of order that

8 established it, or was it just informally set up?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the entire

10 organization of the MUP is regulated by the rules on the internal

11 organization of the MUP, and these rules envisage the establishing of a

12 new organizational unit, the administration for combatting organized

13 crime, and within that unit the department for dealing with war crimes

14 was established to deal over a prolonged period of time with

15 investigating specific crimes, crimes against humanity and international

16 law. So this was not an ad hoc situation, it was envisaged in the rules

17 on the organization of the MUP.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: So no decision was required? I mean, how was it

19 done? Who -- how did you establish a department?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The department was established

21 based on the rules on the internal organization of the ministry.


23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The rules are an internal document

24 describing all the job descriptions and all the posts and all the

25 organizational units within the ministry. It's an internal organization

Page 24109

1 document regulating the work of the entire ministry.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: What was it then happened in 2003 at the time the

3 war crimes prosecutor's office was established?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 2003 a law was passed on the

5 competency of state organs against perpetrators of war crimes, and the

6 prosecutor's office for war crimes was established by that law as a

7 special organ, a separate organ, separate from other prosecutor's

8 offices --

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, but was something done in relation to your

10 office at that time?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That law envisages what had already

12 been done in 2001. Within the Ministry of the Interior a specialised

13 unit was to be formed to investigate war crimes.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you for trying to help me, but I'm sorry I

15 don't understand it.

16 But if it is important, Mr. Ivetic, you can explore it further.


18 Q. This institution of the -- the rules of the internal organization

19 regulating the work of the entire ministry that made a specific

20 department for investigating war crimes, which administration within the

21 MUP brought this rule book into existence? Who was the minister and the

22 assistant minister at that time?

23 A. At the time of Dusan Mihajlovic, who was the minister of the

24 interior, he was authorised to enact the rules, which is bylaw, and if

25 you wish me to explain, Your Honours, if in the ministry crimes are

Page 24110

1 recognised that somebody should deal with, then an organizational unit is

2 established within the ministry to deal with them and people are trained

3 to deal with such crimes. As in the MUP, it was recognised that war

4 crimes had to be investigated. Such an organizational unit was formed

5 two and a half years before the law was passed, and this was permissible.

6 Q. Thank you, Mr. Kostic. For our purposes, it's important to show

7 which administration brought that --

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, please move on, Mr. Ivetic.

9 MR. IVETIC: I will.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: I suspect that my intervention hasn't helped, so

11 you deal with it your way.

12 MR. IVETIC: Okay.

13 Q. Now, when eventually you became the chief or head of this service

14 for investigating war crimes, when was that?

15 A. That was on the 3rd of April, 2006.

16 Q. And when you became head of this service, was the -- was the

17 chief of the RJB Sreten Lukic or someone else?

18 A. No, it was Miroslav Milosevic, he was the chief; and Dragan Jocic

19 appointed me, he was the minister and Milosevic was chief of the sector.

20 Q. What can you tell us about your knowledge of the type of

21 relationship -- strike that.

22 What can you tell us about your knowledge of the assistance

23 offered by Sreten Lukic to the working group and the other nascent

24 entities for investigating and uncovering war crimes that eventually

25 became the service that you are a head of?

Page 24111

1 A. According to what I know, Mr. Sreten Lukic, who at the time was

2 chief of sector, provided full support to members of the working group in

3 order to gather all information relating to perpetrators as well as

4 evidence. At the time when I started working in the department, there

5 was a large number of documents, meaning consents or approvals, that

6 Sreten Lukic issued and signed that enabled successful work of the

7 department aimed at working on and interviewing all persons who

8 potentially had any knowledge about war crimes. I can mention a document

9 that was done on the 18th of June, 2002, where Sreten Lukic gave his

10 consent to interview Obrad Stevanovic; Goran Radosavljevic, who at the

11 time was commander of gendarmerie; Milovan Vucelic, who at the time was

12 chief of secretariat in Prokuplje; Radomir Djeric, senior officer in the

13 gendarmerie; Ljubomir Aleksic, deputy chief of police administration, so

14 nobody was untouchable. The department was authorised to talk to all of

15 the members of the MUP who could potentially have any knowledge about war

16 crimes. The case that I'm referring to now specifically is the Beti qi

17 brothers case. I can also tell you about Berisha Suva Reka case. We had

18 similar authorisations, that is to say written consents from Sreten

19 Lukic, to conduct interviews with anybody who might potentially know

20 something.

21 I can tell you what that meant to us in practice, that meant that

22 nobody could challenge the authority of Sreten Lukic and failed to show

23 up for such an interview, which meant that our work was made a great deal

24 easier by that.

25 Q. Thank you. Now, in the course of undertaking your official

Page 24112

1 duties, did you have any opportunity to personally come into contact with

2 General Lukic at the time that you were both at the border

3 administration; and if so, could you give us your impressions of him as a

4 professional policeman in that regard, how he ran that administration?

5 A. I've worked in that administration since 1997, that's border

6 police administration and administration for foreigners. After 1999

7 Sreten Lukic became head of that administration or chief of that

8 administration. What I'm aware of is that when Sreten came to that

9 position he looked for all laws that dealt with that administration, all

10 rules, all instructive dispatches that regulate the work of that

11 administration, and he wanted law to be applied consistently. And this

12 is something that is very typical of him. He strictly adheres to law.

13 That was the principle he applied when he was head of that

14 administration.

15 Q. Thank you. Now if we can move on to a concrete incident that was

16 investigated, the initial refrigerated truck case or the transportation

17 of bodies of persons from Kosovo to within mass graves in Serbia. In the

18 course of your work in this -- in that investigation, did you have an

19 occasion to interview or listen to a certain witness by the name of

20 Bozidar Protic?

21 A. Yes. While working on that case I talked several times to

22 Bozidar Protic, and when I say "several times," I mean more than 15

23 times. Minutes were not made after each interview, rather, after four or

24 five interview minutes would be made about interviews with Bozidar

25 Protic.

Page 24113

1 Q. And in the course of your interviews with Mr. Protic on these

2 various times, did his story remain the same or did it change?

3 A. His story frequently changed depending on his mood, mental

4 stability. Sometimes he was confused, sometimes he cried, sometimes he

5 was stable, and he frequently changed his story and did not repeat what

6 he said on a previous occasion.

7 Q. Were there any contradictions in the various statements he gave

8 to your service in investigating the Batajnica and Betiqi matters?

9 A. There were frequent contradictions because he could not remember

10 the events specifically. Some events which took place after the armed

11 conflict in Kosovo were linked by him to events which took place during

12 the armed conflict in Kosovo. He was confused frequently about persons

13 with whom he did certain things related to armed conflicts in Kosovo. So

14 there were frequent contradictions, and we had to verify all of that. We

15 came to conclusion that some of the things that he told us were not true.

16 Q. When is the first time that Mr. Protic ever mentioned Sreten

17 Lukic in regards to the whole affair of the removal of bodies from Kosovo

18 to sites within Serbia?

19 A. He mentioned him for the first time in the spring of 2006 during

20 those interviews.

21 Q. How many -- how many interviews had he undertaken with you prior

22 to that time when he had not mentioned Sreten Lukic's name, if you could

23 give an approximate number?

24 A. More than seven I can say.

25 Q. And you indicated that you tried to verify some of the

Page 24114

1 information he gave you and that you found out that items were not true.

2 Could you give us some examples, if you can, if you're able to, off the

3 top of your head, of some of the things the MUP tried to verify from his

4 interviews that turned out not to be true?

5 JUDGE BONOMY: You've been asked to do this off the top of your

6 head. Are there no records of these interviews?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There are minutes or record -- but

8 I told you that we would talk to him several times and then a record

9 would be drawn up because he was quite confused a lot of the times and he

10 gave contradictory accounts. So we couldn't create a contradictory

11 record before establishing facts. If somebody gives a different story in

12 two days, we can't draw up two different records that are contradictory,

13 no. We would go to establish the truth.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Try to confine yourself to answering my questions.

15 Where are the records that you did compile?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the service for uncovering war

17 crimes.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.

19 Mr. Ivetic.

20 MR. IVETIC: I believe certain of those are in evidence in this

21 case in one form or another or were disclosed to the parties. I could

22 perhaps try and track down and provide the Court with a list of those at

23 the conclusion of this witness's testimony if that would allow the Court

24 to see what is in evidence of that documentation.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, thank you.

Page 24115

1 MR. STAMP: I could just put it on the record now, there's 586,

2 the note of his statement of the 4th of June, 2001, that is P586; there

3 is P2816, the record of his statement to the -- to investigating judge

4 Milan Dilparic; and there's P2817, the record of the statement taken by

5 the Belgrade war crimes prosecutor dated 29th of June, 2006. And --

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Only one of these is potentially a MUP statement?

7 MR. STAMP: There is another MUP statement, Your Honours, that is

8 6D196, an extract of it was produced at some point in time. I've been

9 trying to get a copy of the full statement from the Defence. As a matter

10 of fact, to be quite candid, the Prosecution should have made efforts to

11 obtain a copy of this some time ago, but it is just one of those things

12 that slipped under the crack. The Defence had promised from 2007 that

13 they would furnish a copy to us so that we could have it translated for

14 the Court, but I don't think that has been done.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you help on that, Mr. Ivetic?

16 MR. IVETIC: I am told that Mr. Stamp talked to my colleague

17 Mr. Lukic I guess just in the past day or so about that and we are

18 working on getting that to them. There were also statements from 2006

19 that the Prosecutor's office just gave us a couple months ago. But let

20 me ask --

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

22 MR. IVETIC: Let me ask the witness to clarify some things.

23 Q. Were members of the MUP also present for some of the interviews

24 before the investigative judge or could you explain the role in that

25 circumstance?

Page 24116

1 A. Not before the investigative judge, but deputy prosecutor for war

2 crimes. That is to say after several interviews were conducted with

3 Bozidar Protic in order to confirm all of the facts that he gave, we

4 invited deputy prosecutor for war crimes to the premises of the MUP of

5 Serbia to be present, and in accordance with the law he was present

6 during interview and based on that record of interview was drawn up.

7 That is to say members of the MUP conducted the interview and deputy

8 prosecutor for war crimes was present during the interview, his name was

9 Dragoljub Stankovic. This record was drawn up after several interviews

10 were conducted with Bozidar Protic.

11 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, are we at the break now or do we still

12 have five minutes?

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, it's convenient to do it now, Mr. Ivetic.

14 MR. IVETIC: Okay.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

16 Mr. Kostic, we need to have a break at this stage for half an

17 hour. Could you please leave the courtroom with the usher while we have

18 this break.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20 [The witness stands down]

21 JUDGE BONOMY: And we shall resume at 6.00.

22 --- Recess taken at 5.29 p.m.

23 --- On resuming at 6.02 p.m.

24 [The witness takes the stand]

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic.

Page 24117

1 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

2 Q. Mr. Kostic, we left off talking about Mr. Protic. I'd like to

3 ask you a question specifically with respect to this incident that -- the

4 so-called refrigerated lorry case that Mr. Protic was interviewed about.

5 How many other persons were interviewed with respect to this incident and

6 has any other such person in any way mentioned the involvement of Sreten

7 Lukic?

8 A. I can't remember the exact number of people, but everybody who

9 was in any way involved in the event was interviewed. I think that when

10 it comes to drivers that was less than ten people. Nobody ever mentioned

11 Sreten Lukic as a person they had contact with.

12 Q. Okay. And my last topic with respect to Mr. Protic. Based on

13 the contact that your services had with him and the steps that you have

14 undertaken to try to verify the information given to him, do you consider

15 it his -- his information to be credible for purposes of issuing a

16 criminal --

17 MR. STAMP: That is --

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Don't -- please don't answer that question for the

19 moment.

20 Mr. Stamp.

21 MR. STAMP: I think, Your Honour, he can testify about the facts

22 of his observations, but the judgements which are really the -- reserved

23 for the Court I don't think he's entitled to do that at this stage.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic.

25 MR. IVETIC: Do you want me to respond with the witness in the

Page 24118

1 courtroom?


3 MR. IVETIC: Okay. The question I'm asking is whether the

4 Serbian MUP has information to do a criminal report or criminal

5 denunciation which would be the first step showing that they had

6 justifiable cause to show that someone has committed a crime. So I'm not

7 asking for him to comment on what the outcome this Court has to make, but

8 I'm trying to determine whether in fact the Serbian MUP has made a

9 decision based upon the witness's information whether, in fact, there

10 exists credible evidence to issue a criminal charge or criminal report,

11 we still have that issue on what the proper translation for a "krivicna

12 privaja" would be.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: That's not the question you've asked so far, I

14 note that the question was not completed, but it seems to be confined to

15 the credibility of Protic. Have I understood you wrongly?

16 MR. IVETIC: Well, since no other witness has issued --

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well. Thank you.

18 MR. IVETIC: -- [indiscernible] yeah.

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 JUDGE BONOMY: We will sustain the objection. It is not for one

21 witness to comment on the credibility, in other words, to assess the

22 credibility of another witness, and that is the nature of the question

23 asked here. So please move on to something else, Mr. Ivetic.

24 MR. IVETIC: With the Court's permission can I ask the general

25 question of whether a criminal report has ever been issued for Sreten

Page 24119

1 Lukic arising out of this matter?

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Certainly, but the answer probably is: Yes, it

3 has, by the ICTY.

4 MR. IVETIC: By the Serbian MUP.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, okay, if you make it as specific as that --

6 MR. IVETIC: Yes.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: --then you may do so.

8 MR. IVETIC: That would be my question.

9 Q. Mr. Kostic, based on the investigation that has been undertaken

10 into this matter, has the Serbian MUP ever issued a "krivicna privaja,"

11 which here we've been calling a criminal report or a criminal

12 denunciation for Sreten Lukic?

13 A. No. During the criminal investigation conducted by the MUP, it

14 was not established that Sreten Lukic had participated in it --

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Kostic, you have answered the question.

16 Nothing further in the way of comment is called for.

17 Mr. Ivetic.

18 MR. IVETIC: And I'm moving on to a different topic.

19 Q. Now, we've mentioned a variety of cases that are -- that the MUP

20 has completed investigations on and has submitted to the relevant

21 prosecutors and court systems for processing. I have to move on to a

22 more sensitive topic. Is it my understanding that there are also other

23 ongoing investigations being undertaken by the MUP; is that correct?

24 A. That's correct. Cases that are completed as far as the MUP is

25 concerned is the case Suva Reka, the murder of the Berisha family, that

Page 24120

1 case was commenced in 2002 when Sreten Lukic was chief of sector. The

2 entire documentation, statements, and everything else was sent to the war

3 crimes prosecutor when that office was established, and then in 2005

4 seven members of the MUP, either current or former, were arrested.

5 Q. Okay. Please finish.

6 A. Yes. The other case was the murder of the Bytyqi brothers. The

7 case was opened after the mass graves were found in Petrovo Selo, and

8 currently proceedings are underway against six persons before the war

9 crimes chamber in Belgrade. There are also other cases that were opened

10 and are still ongoing. Criminal reports were submitted, these are

11 complex cases and it is difficult to finalise them.

12 Q. [Previous translation continues]...

13 JUDGE BONOMY: There's an overlap there, Mr. Ivetic.

14 MR. IVETIC: I'm sorry.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: But in any event, something does need to be

16 clarified.

17 The Suva Reka case is ongoing as well, is it not?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The trial is in progress; however,

19 what MUP has done so far was to correct -- collect evidence, to arrest

20 persons, and the case is currently on trial before the war crimes chamber

21 in Belgrade.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: I understood that, but are you saying that in

23 relation to the Bytyqi brothers the MUP investigations are ongoing?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There are proceedings pending

25 before the district court in Belgrade against six persons. MUP, however,

Page 24121

1 has not found direct perpetrators and MUP is currently working on finding

2 direct perpetrators of the crime.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

4 Mr. Ivetic.

5 MR. IVETIC: Okay.

6 Q. Now, the question I have is a far-reaching one. Apart from the

7 one instance that we've already discussed, in all these other interviews

8 that you've had with various persons, witnesses, et cetera, on all these

9 allegations of war crimes from Kosovo and Metohija that are being

10 processed by the MUP and/or the Serbian judiciary, has any one of those

11 other persons interviewed for any of those other cases ever implicated

12 Sreten Lukic's involvement in any way whatsoever in any of those other

13 cases?

14 MR. STAMP: I don't know if the answer would be of any

15 assistance, so perhaps there is no point in objecting, but I don't think

16 this is --

17 JUDGE BONOMY: It is probably --

18 MR. STAMP: -- evidence.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: I think it probably is relevant evidence,

20 Mr. Stamp, and there's certainly no basis for objecting other than on

21 relevance. So we will allow the question to be answered.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Based on the entire documentation

23 that was collected and based on the interviews conducted, it was not

24 established that Sreten Lukic was involved in war crimes in the territory

25 of Kosovo and Metohija.

Page 24122


2 Q. Okay. You've already mentioned the KiM dossier --

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that's not quite the answer to the question,

4 and in fact the answer that you were -- well, the question you were asked

5 was whether anyone had ever implicated him, and it follows I think that

6 the answer is no. But you have answered a question you were not asked.

7 Mr. Ivetic.


9 Q. I think you've already explained the KiM dossier for our

10 purposes.

11 MR. IVETIC: If Your Honours have more questions about the KiM

12 dossier, I would let you know that we do have a witness coming up who

13 exclusively dealt with the KiM dossier personally so he'd probably have

14 more information than Mr. Kostic, but I will not be asking Mr. Kostic any

15 more questions about that --

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well.

17 MR. IVETIC: -- collection.

18 Q. One other area I have to ask you about is we had a witness in

19 this case, a protected witness, who talked about allegations of

20 certain -- of certain events and certain crimes that he alleged were

21 committed. There was a newspaper article that came out in Danas

22 newspaper about it. Rather than go into the details which might cause us

23 to have to go into private session to protect the witness, I can talk

24 about my Defence witness and with the leave of Mr. Stamp, I have one

25 photograph I would like to show just so we all know what case we are

Page 24123

1 talking about, that would be P2629, but it was not on our list for

2 production for this witness. I think it's -- I think it's easier to

3 identify the incident with the picture rather than going into the details

4 which might provide information that is protected.

5 MR. STAMP: I'm not sure what the question is, but I think the

6 photo is in evidence so if the witness has knowledge about this, I

7 suppose he could be asked.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: It's a shorthand way of avoiding going into

9 private session, apparently.

10 MR. IVETIC: Yes.

11 So if we could have 2629 -- P2629 up on the screen.

12 Q. And I'm going to ask you, sir, if you are familiar with the

13 investigations. We have one of my witnesses, Dragan Milenkovic, also

14 known as Sisarka, who was investigated by a judge with respect to this

15 incident. And is this an investigation that you are familiar with in the

16 Serbian system?

17 A. We investigated several photographs, ones that we got from NGOs

18 and those that were published in the media; however, I don't think that

19 we investigated this particular photograph.

20 Q. Thank you. Just one moment then.

21 I think that completes my direct examination. Thank you again

22 for your time, Mr. Kostic.

23 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I have finished my direct examination.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.

25 You will now be cross-examined by the Prosecutor, Mr. Stamp.

Page 24124

1 Mr. Stamp.

2 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much, Your Honour.

3 Cross-examination by Mr. Stamp:

4 Q. Good afternoon.

5 A. Good afternoon.

6 Q. What I'd like to do first is just to clarify the chronology of

7 events. You testified to a variety of things. The indictment in this

8 case charging the several accused or some of the accused with war crimes

9 in Kosovo was proffered -- was issued in March or became public in March

10 1999. Where were you employed then, in March 1999?

11 A. In March 1999 I worked at the border police department that

12 involved foreign nationals as well at the headquarters of the Ministry of

13 the Interior in Belgrade.

14 Q. Mr. Lukic or General Lukic became head of the public security

15 division on the 31st of January, 2001; is that what you said?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Where were you employed then?

18 A. I was still working at the department of the border police for

19 foreign nationals at the same place, the headquarters of the Ministry of

20 the Interior.

21 Q. The working group to investigate the bodies that were found were

22 set up in May 2001. Where were you employed then?

23 A. I held the same job.

24 Q. Now, in May 2001 did you participate in any of the meetings and

25 discussions with the minister or General Lukic in regard to setting up

Page 24125

1 this working group?

2 A. No.

3 Q. You said that General Lukic was the main impetus behind it,

4 behind setting it up. What is the basis of that opinion?

5 A. When I started working in the division for prosecuting war

6 crimes -- investigating war crimes and searching for missing persons, I

7 had documents from the working group and I had information on the

8 establishment because Dragan Furdulovic was my superior and he was a

9 member of that working group. Also, Dragan Karleusa, who was my superior

10 and who was deputy head of the UBPOK was also a member of the working

11 group, and on the basis of what they said in their conversations with me,

12 I have this knowledge.

13 Q. I see. When this working group was set up, was there in the FRY

14 at the time -- how should I put this?

15 Was this something, the fact that bodies had been found in the

16 Danube and taken off and concealed, was that something that was all over

17 the press, so to speak, in Serbia?

18 A. On the basis of the information that was published in the media,

19 particularly in Timocka Revija 92, this information was obtained and that

20 was the initial basis for setting up the work group and investigating

21 these events.

22 Q. In other words, and perhaps we could look at -- have P586 on the

23 screen. This working group was set up as a result of the publication by

24 private media which revealed that bodies had been found in 1999 and were

25 concealed thereafter. And the public prosecutor for Negotin thereafter

Page 24126

1 confirmed that bodies had been found in 1999 and were concealed.

2 A. What's the question?

3 Q. Those were the circumstances in which this working group was set

4 up, it was set up as a result of the national press coverage and the

5 confirmation by the prosecutor from Negotin that, in fact, the bodies had

6 been discovered in 1995 -- 1999 and concealed thereafter.

7 A. It was established in order to check all this information out, or

8 rather, the accuracy of this information.

9 Q. You see before you a record of the interview or interviews of

10 Bozidar Protic on the 4th of June -- it's dated the 4th of June, 2001.

11 Where were you employed on the 4th of June, 2001?

12 A. As I've already said, I was working in the border police

13 department and I did not work on the uncovering of war crimes. I started

14 working on the uncovering of war crimes on the 27th of November, 2001.

15 Q. I see. Now, the office for war crimes, your office for war

16 crimes, was set up when?

17 A. On the 1st of October, 2001, as a follow-up to the working group.

18 Q. So you went there after it was set up -- well, that much is

19 obvious. Let me ask you this: Do you know whether or not there were

20 international initiatives and local initiatives by diplomats and various

21 political figures pressing for a war crimes investigative body in Serbia

22 or in the former FRY to investigate allegations of war crimes? Do you

23 know about that?

24 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I would object to the foundation.

25 We're getting actually to a risky area, so we might actually -- the

Page 24127

1 witness has stated where his knowledge comes from. I don't know if

2 Mr. Stamp -- well, to further discuss this we might need to go into

3 private session to discuss the third party.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm not following you. It seems a perfectly

5 straightforward question. Does he know whether or not there were

6 international initiatives and local initiatives.

7 MR. IVETIC: Okay. Fair enough. If --

8 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Let's --

9 MR. STAMP: Yes.

10 Q. You can -- without going into details, do you know whether or not

11 there were?

12 A. This initiative followed in 2002 and 2003. At the moment when it

13 was established there was no such initiative as far as I know.

14 Q. As far as you know. So you did not participate in any

15 discussions for -- in respect to investigating war crimes in Serbia in

16 that period?

17 A. I participated later in conferences that were organized by NGOs

18 and international organizations when organs were being established and

19 when the law was being passed on the role of state authorities in

20 identifying perpetrators of war crimes. The representatives of

21 international organizations didn't know that a decision for investigating

22 war crimes had already been established in the MUP. I familiarized them

23 with the fact that such a unit already existed in the MUP, and they

24 wanted to have specialised agencies established within the Serbian state

25 and government. I assume that there was no initiative or perhaps the

Page 24128

1 initiative came much later.

2 Q. [Previous translation continues]...

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stamp, the -- there was no pause there and the

4 question that you've just asked was not translated.

5 MR. STAMP: I was merely trying to stop the witness.



8 Q. So I take it in 2001 you personally did not participate in any of

9 the discussions relating to the formation of the working group or the war

10 crimes investigating division?

11 A. That's right, I did not participate.

12 Q. Very well. All your evidence here about what the impulse was and

13 who pressed it, et cetera, is based on what you were told after?

14 A. No. I got some direct knowledge as well, immediate knowledge, in

15 my conversations with the representatives of the international community.

16 At that time they did not know that a division for investigating war

17 crimes had been established at all.

18 Q. Well, did you in 2001 speak with representatives of the ICTY?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Do you know whether or not representatives from the ICTY were

21 visiting Kosovo and making representations?

22 A. I know about that from the media.

23 Q. I see.

24 A. As for direct contacts, I did not have any until I started

25 working in this division.

Page 24129

1 Q. So let's go on with the chronology a little bit. You were not

2 involved in taking the first record of Mr. Protic's statement, but you

3 were involved in taking a record of one on the 2nd of October, 2002;

4 that's correct?

5 A. Correct.

6 Q. Did you participate in recording any other statement from

7 Mr. Protic, that is, when I say "recording," I mean reducing it to

8 writing?

9 A. Yes, in 2006 as well.

10 Q. Now, if we could look at 6D196. This is an excerpt of this

11 statement which we were promised a copy of, but do you recall

12 participating in the taking of this statement -- well, you had just said

13 you did. Did you bring a copy with you when you came here just recently?

14 A. No.

15 Q. You were the recording clerk, I see from the record here. Who

16 were the members of the operative team?

17 A. The members of the operative team were Gvozden Gagic and there

18 was Dusan Lakcevic. Of course I also took direct part in the taking of

19 this statement, but I also physically recorded it. That's why I signed

20 it as the recording official. But I did take part in the actual taking

21 of the statement.

22 Q. What was your rank then?

23 A. I was the lieutenant in terms of rank, and I was an officer who

24 was directly involved in the war crime investigations and the searches

25 for missing persons within that department.

Page 24130

1 Q. Yes, I -- you have said that on a number of occasions before. I

2 just want to know were the persons who were members of the operative team

3 senior to you during this statement?

4 A. Gvozden Gagic was the lieutenant-colonel in terms of rank. Dusan

5 Lakcevic is a retired MUP employee who became a lawyer and who was

6 engaged by the MUP to be a member of the operative team. So officially

7 he was not a member of the MUP, but he was engaged for this particular

8 work by the Ministry of the Interior. He has a doctorate and his

9 profession is that of a lawyer.

10 Q. Have you had an opportunity to read the record of the interview

11 taken -- sorry, the record of the interview of Mr. Protic of the 4th of

12 July, 2001?

13 A. Yes, before we talked --

14 Q. What --

15 A. -- we familiarized ourselves with all the documentation.

16 Q. What are the contradictions between that one and the one that you

17 were involved in a few months after you joined the war crimes unit?

18 A. The contradictions are not evident in the record, but it was

19 noticed during the interview how many trips were made when the corpses

20 were transported, how they were transported, which was the first trip,

21 which was the last trip, was there more or less than four. So there were

22 many contradictions that cropped up that are not reflected in the record

23 because the record is his final statement on what it was that had

24 actually happened.

25 Q. I see. So --

Page 24131

1 JUDGE BONOMY: If you don't keep a record of contradictions, how

2 can you justify the decision you make about whether to rely on that

3 person's evidence or not in deciding to formulate a criminal

4 denunciation?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When a person is interviewed, the

6 said person can say something and then change his statement during the

7 course of the interview, and we do not record all these corrections. We

8 finalise the statement when he says, Yes, this is what I remember, that

9 is what we record. But during the interview we do note certain

10 contradictions in the statement of a witness, that he confuses events,

11 that does not remember things exactly, or quite simply that he doesn't

12 speak with accuracy because there is other knowledge that indicates facts

13 that had been confirmed by other persons. Our job is to collect

14 information in a reliable manner, and we do it.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: So where are these notes?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The finalised notes are the notes

17 that are in front of you right now, this statement.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: You just said that: "During the interview we do

19 note certain contradictions in the statement of a witness that he

20 confuses events, that he does not remember things exactly ..."

21 Now, where are these notes?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you have enough time, that

23 question requires a more thorough answer. I need to explain the

24 methodology of our work to you, then it's going to be clear to you.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: My question's a simple one: Where are these

Page 24132

1 notes?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Notes are made by investigators who

3 conduct the interview, they note down what a person is saying. These

4 notes are not formal. These are in their personal notebooks, and then

5 finally when a person says that this is his personal -- final personal

6 statement, then that is recorded as that person's final statement. All

7 the rest is informal.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Did you bring your personal notebook with you?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course not.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, why'd you say "of course not"? It seems a

11 crazy thing to come here to give evidence about this event, when you have

12 a notebook that records the contradictions, and not bring the notebook

13 with you.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Every document -- well, actually,

15 there is documentation that is official and there is documentation

16 pertaining to the conducting of an interview. The record that is before

17 you now is an official document; all the rest is unofficial and cannot be

18 used. That is why I said "of course not."

19 JUDGE BONOMY: So the official one's rubbish and the unofficial

20 one is what we should be relying on but we don't have access to it; is

21 that what you're saying?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't wish to say that.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.

24 Mr. -- let's go back to Mr. Stamp then. Thank you.


Page 24133

1 Q. Specifically in respect to the one in front of you, did you

2 personally take notes in respect to this interview?

3 A. I wrote down what the witness was saying, and I wrote that down

4 not in a notebook but on an A4 piece of paper.

5 Q. This is your record of it or are there other notes that you made?

6 A. That's right. No, there are no other notes. There are -- there

7 is an outline of what I wrote down, it is what I jotted down while the

8 witness was speaking. And this skeleton outline is used in order to

9 compile this final record that the interviewee is prepared to sign as his

10 own.

11 Q. Very well. So let's move on to the statement that Mr. Protic

12 gave in 2006. You are saying --

13 MR. STAMP: Could we call up P2817 -- before ...

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Sorry, Mr. Stamp. Please continue.


17 Q. You are saying that you also played a role in taking this

18 statement. Now, without going through the statement, the statement does

19 not reflect your role or does it? Does the statement reflect that you

20 played a role in taking this one?

21 A. I took part in the taking of this statement, and that is

22 reflected in the initials that are up here.

23 Q. Very well --

24 A. Underneath the heading of this document. Underneath the heading

25 there is DJ/AK. I can explain why it was written that way, if you wish.

Page 24134

1 Q. Those are your initials, AK?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Very well.

4 A. So I was present when the interview took place, I was present

5 throughout, but I was not present when the record was written. The

6 record was compiled by Dragan Jenic, my colleague, and that is why my

7 name is not on the record because I was away on official business at the

8 moment when the record was being typed out, but my initials are there as

9 proof of the fact that I attended and that I conducted the interview.

10 Q. Well, wasn't the interview conducted by the deputy war crimes

11 prosecutor, Stankovic; is that I think what you said earlier in chief?

12 A. Dragoljub Stankovic was present, he worked together with us, that

13 is to say that this interview was conducted by Dragan Jenic, myself, and

14 Dragoljub Stankovic, the three of us that is to say.

15 Q. Very well. And if we could move on to P2824 -- well, we don't

16 really need to see that or to get into that exhibit. May I just ask you

17 this: Were you involved in the case charging certain police officers or

18 former members of the MUP for participation in concealing bodies in

19 Petrovo Selo? This case I think was heard in 2007.

20 A. What case are you referring to specifically?

21 Q. We have a record, and that is the one in front of you, which is a

22 transcript of the testimony of Bozidar Protic before the war crimes

23 chamber of the Belgrade district court, and this is in respect to the

24 case relating to bodies found at Petrovo Selo. Were you a party to that

25 particular investigation or that case?

Page 24135

1 A. I was a party in two cases concerning Petrovo Selo, the mass

2 grave in Petrovo Selo, and the murder of the Bytyqi brothers. These are

3 two cases linked to Petrovo Selo and this is why I asked you which case

4 you were referring to specifically, whether the Bytyqi brothers or the

5 mass grave in Petrovo Selo case. The two cases are linked, but I can't

6 see from this which of the two this refers to.

7 Q. Not the Bytyqi brothers, the mass grave. Can you look at the

8 reference number and not know if you were involved in that case, it's the

9 top left hand of the document.

10 A. That's the number of the district court, it doesn't mean anything

11 to us.

12 Q. Very well.

13 A. So I can't identify the case by that number.

14 Q. Do you know that Protic testified in the Belgrade district court

15 in respect to Petrovo Selo in 2007?

16 A. That's the -- for the investigating judge, he's competent to do

17 that. He -- I assumed he testified, but now we're talking about

18 proceedings before an investigating judge.

19 Q. No --

20 A. May I clarify.

21 Q. Do you know whether or not Protic testified? Do you know that he

22 testified?

23 A. Protic told me when I talked to him that he had testified more

24 than once before investigating judge Milan Dilparic, so I am aware of

25 that.

Page 24136

1 Q. Is it the Belgrade district court?

2 A. Yes. He is the investigating judge of the court for war crimes

3 in Belgrade, and you can see that in the document.

4 Q. Is the war crimes chamber of the Belgrade district court the same

5 as office of the investigating judge?

6 A. The war crimes chamber is part of the Belgrade district court, it

7 has trial chambers or trial judges and investigating judges. In the

8 chamber there are two investigating judges and several trial judges, the

9 war crimes chamber, that is.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Is this the only page we have?

11 MR. STAMP: No, Your Honours. It's probably -- could we move on

12 to page 2 of the document.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: See if there's a reference there to the status of

14 the judge.


16 Q. Can you tell us from that record whether or not this transcript

17 relates to a trial or the proceedings of an investigating judge?

18 A. This is a transcript before the investigating judge -- in fact, I

19 think so because I haven't seen the judge who signed this. No, excuse

20 me, it says "presiding judge," then it must be the trial. I do

21 apologise, it must be the trial.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: It also says it's a trial.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So it's probably the Bytyqi

24 brothers trial because the mass graves case is still in the investigation

25 stage, whereas the Bytyqi brothers case is in trial now. That's why I

Page 24137

1 asked you what case this was.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Have you spoken to Protic since the 8th of

3 February, 2007?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I spoke to Protic before he came to

5 testify before the Hague Tribunal because the service for the detection

6 of war crimes is authorised to act on requests coming from The Hague

7 Tribunal and the investigating judge and he was to be a witness. My

8 interviews with him in that period were about that because he refused to

9 appear as a Prosecution witness, and I then tried to explain his role to

10 him and to explain to him that he was duty-bound to respond to the

11 summons from the Court.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

13 Mr. Stamp.


15 Q. How many drivers did you interview in respect to the allegations

16 that bodies were transported from Kosovo to Serbia and concealed?

17 A. I can't give you the precise number, but everyone who

18 participated in it, less than ten who had direct or indirect knowledge

19 about this.

20 Q. Protic is one driver.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Do you recall any of the others that you interviewed?

23 A. I may have misspoken. Everyone who participated in the

24 transport, not just the drivers but those who were providing security as

25 well.

Page 24138

1 Q. [Previous translation continues]... drivers three times. I am

2 asking you about drivers. No, I understand that you may have misspoken.

3 Very well. Did you interview any other driver apart from Protic?

4 A. The drivers, no, but the security, yes, the people who sat with

5 them in the vehicles. Somebody was driving the vehicle and he was the

6 driver, if one might put it that way.

7 Q. Yes, I understand that. But Protic said as driver -- well, we

8 won't go into that. I just wanted to know about the drivers. You spoke

9 about two cases that your team investigated, one being the Suva Reka

10 case. You handed over the file in 2002?

11 A. In 2003, that's when we handed over the file to the prosecutor's

12 office for war crimes, that's when that office was established. That's

13 when we completed the police investigation and established precisely what

14 had happened there.

15 Q. Well, the indictments, you know, were issued in that regard in

16 2005 -- sorry, on the 25th of April, 2006. Do you know that?

17 A. Yes, when the prosecutor's office received that material they

18 requested from the investigating judge an investigation, and then from

19 2003 to 2005 the investigating judge conducted an investigation based on

20 the documentation submitted by the MUP. Based on that documentation, it

21 was established that there were grounds to suspect that some people

22 perpetrated a crime and these people were arrested, seven persons were

23 arrested subsequently.

24 Q. You mean you are saying that it took the prosecutor three years,

25 approximately, between the time when you submitted your records to study

Page 24139

1 them and then based upon those records indict, or is it that the

2 prosecutor had to conduct his own investigation?

3 A. No. The prosecutor submitted a request to the investigating

4 judge. It was the investigating judge who conducted an investigation,

5 and it's true that it lasted for two years.

6 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much, Your Honours. I have nothing

7 further for this witness.

8 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Kostic.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Stamp.

10 Just one point that I perhaps should have picked up earlier.

11 Were you personally involved in the investigation of the finding of

12 bodies at Petrovo Selo or is your personal involvement confined to the

13 Suva Reka case and the Bytyqi brothers case of the cases that you've

14 mentioned?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I participated personally in all

16 the cases.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

18 Mr. Zecevic.

19 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, just to correct the transcript, on

20 page 81, 4, 5, 6, it was said that the indictment in this case was issued

21 in March 1999 and became public in March 1999, which is incorrect, it was

22 May. 81, 4, 5, 6, my learned friend Mr. Stamp --

23 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you very much.

24 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you.

25 Mr. Ivetic, re-examination?

Page 24140

1 MR. IVETIC: No, I don't think so, Your Honour. We finished this

2 witness right on time.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

4 Mr. Kostic, that does complete your evidence. Thank you for

5 coming to assist us. You may leave the courtroom with the usher. Thank

6 you.

7 [The witness withdrew]

8 JUDGE BONOMY: We shall resume here at 2.15 tomorrow.

9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.59 p.m.,

10 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 12th day of

11 March, 2008, at 2.15 p.m.