1 Monday, 17 March 2008

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.15 p.m.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Good afternoon, everyone. There is a procedural

6 issue outstanding from the end of last week which we would like to deal

7 with at the outset today; that requires to be done in private session, so

8 initially we shall briefly go into private session.

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21 [Open session]

22 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic, your next witness?

24 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours. Our next witness is

25 Mr. Vladimir Ilic.

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

2 [The witness entered court]

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Good afternoon, Mr. Ilic.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Would you please make the solemn declaration to

6 speak the truth by reading aloud the document which will now be shown to

7 you.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

9 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Please be seated.

11 You will now be examined by Mr. Ivetic on behalf of Mr. Lukic.

12 Mr. Ivetic.

13 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 WITNESS: VLADIMIR ILIC

15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 Examination by Mr. Ivetic:

17 Q. Good day, Mr. Ilic.

18 A. Good day.

19 Q. For purposes of the record, could you please introduce yourself

20 by giving your full name.

21 A. Vladimir Ilic.

22 Q. And could you also give us a brief overview of your biography and

23 educational background.

24 A. I was born on the 12th of June, 1965, in Rijeka. I completed the

25 secondary school of the interior and I worked as a policeman in Belgrade

1 for two years; after that, I was sent to the military academy of the land

2 forces that I completed in 1991 in Belgrade.

3 Q. Before we focus a bit more on your training, could you briefly

4 tell us about your employment history, including the -- any current

5 position you hold within the Serbian Ministry of Internal Affairs.

6 A. Upon completing the military academy in 1991 I worked as an

7 assistant commander, "komandir," then as a station commander, that is to

8 say the commander of a police station, as an officer in the police

9 administration, as a commander of the gendarmerie detachment in Belgrade,

10 and now I work as a head of the department for training within the

11 gendarmerie.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: What is the gendarmerie?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The gendarmerie is one of the

14 organizational units of the Ministry of the Interior. It was established

15 in 2001.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well. It's of no importance for our

17 purposes.

18 Please continue, Mr. Ivetic.

19 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

20 Q. Mr. Ilic, you mentioned the fact that you were -- as a SUP

21 scholar sent to the military academy. Do you know when that practice

22 started from Serbia and the other republics in the Yugoslav Federation at

23 that point in time, when it was that that practice started that the

24 republican SUPs sent their candidates for military academy and what

25 number of such students that was approximately, if you know?

1 A. I don't know the exact year, but approximately in the early 1970s

2 this practice started and the republican Ministries of the Interior, that

3 is to say from the former republics of the former Socialist Federal

4 Republic of Yugoslavia sent a few representatives respectively from their

5 ministries to the military academy. This practice stopped when the

6 police academy was established. I think it was established in 1993.

7 Since then the ministry has no longer been sending its own people to be

8 trained at the military academy.

9 Q. When you say "Republican Ministries of the Interior," was the

10 Serbian Republican Ministry of the Interior the only ministry that sent

11 its scholars to the military academy during that time-period?

12 A. No. The Ministries of the Interior from all the republics did

13 that, that is to say from Slovenia to Macedonia. At that time I was

14 involved in my education together with them.

15 Q. Thank you, sir. You've told us of your employment positions

16 within the MUP. As part of those positions, were you also engaged as a

17 member of the PJP?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Could you tell us a little bit about when it was that you were

20 engaged in the PJP?

21 A. I've been engaged in the PJP since their establishment, since

22 1993.

23 Q. And could you tell us what type of tasks the PJP were normally

24 engaged in when called on?

25 A. The usual tasks of the PJP once a PJP is engaged. Are you asking

1 me about the tasks of the PJP when they are actually engaged or are you

2 asking me about regular work, regular tasks when the policemen involved

3 are not within the PJP?

4 Q. I'm asking about the tasks when a policeman is engaged in the

5 PJP.

6 A. According to the rules on the use of special police units, I

7 don't know the exact title of this document, the tasks of the PJPs are

8 defined; namely, anti-terrorist actions, arrests of dangerous criminals,

9 providing security at public gathering including sports games of high

10 risk, and providing assistance to citizens in cases of natural disaster.

11 Q. Thank you. And can you tell us now the other question that you

12 had presented, when policemen who are part -- who are on the PJP list are

13 not engaged as PJP, what kinds of duties do they perform when not so

14 engaged?

15 A. Their regular tasks in their home police stations, sectoral work,

16 patrols, and duty service.

17 Q. Could you tell us something briefly about the formation and

18 structure of the specific PJP unit that you were a part of and its

19 specific circumstances?

20 A. It was the 122nd Detachment of the PJP. The detachment was

21 headed by Colonel Dragan Zivaljevic; his deputy was major or

22 lieutenant-colonel at the time, his name was Bosko Buha. I was one of

23 the assistants. The unit, as far as I can remember, had some seven

24 units -- seven companies.

25 Q. And from which source or mother secretariats was this detachment

1 formed?

2 A. That detachment was formed out of the workers of the secretariat

3 of internal affairs in Belgrade.

4 Q. Can you --

5 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, before we go any further, I would like

6 to pose an objection. The 65 ter indicated this member as being -- this

7 witness as being a member of the 121st Brigade. Now he's saying the

8 122nd Detachment. If that's the case, I may need some additional time to

9 review documents for cross-examination.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic.

11 MR. IVETIC: I could perhaps clarify that with the witness.

12 Q. Mr. Ilic, you have heard what Mr. Hannis has indicated. Could

13 you perhaps clarify for us the specific circumstances of the 122nd

14 Detachment, as you said, how did it come to be and did it change its name

15 at some point in time?

16 A. Yes, the name did change. It used to be the 121st Detachment,

17 and there was a 122nd Detachment; however, the two were merged and at

18 that point the 121st Intervention Brigade was created. I misspoke

19 before, a minute ago I said "detachment"; however, when 121 and 122

20 Detachments merged what was created was the 121st Intervention Brigade.

21 Q. The 121st or the 122nd Intervention Brigade? What was the final

22 designation of this formation?

23 A. I apologise again, 122nd.

24 Q. Can you tell us during the NATO bombing campaign where your

25 brigade of the PJP was located in Kosovo and Metohija?

1 A. The 122nd Intervention Brigade was in Kosovo. It was split in

2 two parts and in two different areas. The first part was in the area of

3 the Pristina SUP. Most of our forces were concentrated around Podujevo

4 and were commanded by Colonel Dragan Zivaljevic. The second part was in

5 the area of Metohija, mostly around Pec. That part was commanded by

6 Major or Colonel Bosko Buha. I cannot remember exactly his rank at the

7 time.

8 Q. Thank you. And could you tell us about the numerical strength of

9 this intervention brigade of the PJP approximately during that time,

10 because I know it may have changed?

11 A. More or less around 700[as interpreted] policemen in both

12 detachments, 400 per detachment.

13 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I don't know how the English

14 translation came through on the headphones, but in the transcript it

15 shows 700, the witness said 800. I believe if I need to ask him to

16 clarify that I will.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: You should do.

18 MR. IVETIC:

19 Q. Mr. Ilic, the transcript reflects 700 policemen, was that the

20 number that you gave?

21 A. I said approximately 800, 400 per detachment, but the number

22 reduced towards the end of the war due to a great number of wounded,

23 killed and other members of the force who were hors de combat, in total

24 some 300. Therefore, the figure did not stay the same throughout the

25 war, it was reduced.

1 Q. Thank you. And when you say 400 per detachment, does that

2 mean -- or how many would be in -- how many would have been in the part

3 of the brigade sent to assist the SUP Pristina and how many were sent to

4 assist the SUP Pec?

5 A. To assist the Pristina SUP some 400 men, policemen, were sent;

6 and as for the Pec SUP the same figure.

7 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us, if you know, how members of the PJP

8 were selected?

9 A. There were no volunteers. Selection was made based on the age of

10 members, predominantly younger men were chosen; that was, I would say,

11 the basic principle.

12 Q. Could you describe for us the uniforms that you wore during your

13 assignments to Kosovo and Metohija both in 1998 and 1999 as part of the

14 122nd Intervention Brigade in the PJP?

15 A. Until August or early September 1998, we used to wear blue

16 camouflage uniforms. During that particular period we received green

17 camouflage uniforms; from that point onwards, we wore those.

18 Q. From that point onwards, that is to say focusing on the

19 time-period of 1999, did other PJP units that you participated with in

20 actions in 1999 wear the same uniforms as you?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Now, these uniforms, how were they marked to identify the persons

23 as belonging to the police during the course of the war in 1999?

24 A. On the right or the left shoulder, I cannot remember exactly, we

25 wore the coat of arms of the PJP; on the opposing shoulder, the other

1 shoulder, we wore the flag of Serbia; on the cap we had insignia of the

2 police, it was a coat of arms of sorts without the word "police"; on the

3 tactical flak jacket on the right-hand side in small letters it read

4 "police"; on the back there were large letters across the back also

5 saying "police."

6 Q. What colour were --

7 A. White, white.

8 Q. Was there anything special about the colour of the letters that

9 marked "police" on the tactical jackets that were worn?

10 A. The letters were white and I believe they were phosphorescent.

11 Q. In addition to the standard markings and emblems on the uniforms,

12 did you have occasion to wear any additional markings to distinguish

13 yourselves during combat in either 1998 or 1999?

14 A. We wore identifying ribbons. We used three colours: Red --

15 Q. Let me go through it with you by periods, first of all. First of

16 all, do you recall when in 1998 such ribbons were worn along with the

17 regular uniform?

18 A. I don't remember.

19 MR. IVETIC: If I can have Exhibit 6D667 shown to the witness.

20 Q. Looking at this document, sir, does this document refresh your

21 recollection as to the markings or ribbons that you wore during your

22 engagement in 1998 and when that was?

23 A. I remember wearing them, but I don't remember any dates. I see

24 some dates here but it doesn't ring a bell.

25 Q. Fair enough. With respect to 1999, do you recall when you

1 started wearing ribbons in 1999?

2 A. I think we began wearing them in mid-April or so.

3 MR. IVETIC: If I can show Exhibit 6D237, and we could turn to

4 the second page of the same in both the English and the Serbian?

5 Q. Sir, looking at this document does it accurately reflect the --

6 your recollection of the ribbons that were to be worn in the second half

7 of April 1999?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 MR. IVETIC: And if we could just have one more exhibit on the

11 screen, 6D1529 -- I apologise, 6D579, which -- I believe it's the same

12 document but this one has an English translation so it will be of much

13 more use to us in these proceedings and make less work for translation

14 services.

15 Q. Sir, looking at this document does it reflect your recollection

16 of the colours of ribbons that were worn in the period of May 1999 in

17 addition to your uniform that you've described?

18 A. I think it was red, blue, and yellow.

19 MR. IVETIC: And just for the sake of completeness, if we can

20 have the next page of this exhibit.

21 Q. And I'll have the same question for you, if this comports with

22 your recollection of the ribbons that were worn in June of 1999 as part

23 of the uniform?

24 A. Yes, those are the same colours.

25 Q. Thank you. Were there any occasions where PJP members wore

1 non-standard uniforms or items of clothing in the course of activities in

2 Kosovo and Metohija, either in 1998 or 1999?

3 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I object to the form of the question

4 without some further foundation to indicate this witness knows about what

5 all PJP members in Kosovo and 1998 and 1999 were wearing.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic.

7 MR. IVETIC: I can rephrase the question and relate it to PJP

8 members within his brigade or any other detachments that operated

9 alongside his brigade if that assists Mr. Hannis with his objection.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, so that we know that he's talking from

11 personal experience. Thank you.

12 MR. IVETIC:

13 Q. Let me repeat the question then for you, sir. Were there any

14 occasions where either PJP members in your brigade or in any other PJP

15 formations that operated alongside you in the field, were there any

16 occasions where non-standard uniforms or items of clothing were worn in

17 Kosovo and Metohija?

18 A. Such cases were prohibited, on top of that it was dangerous to

19 wear a uniform which differed from the uniforms of your unit since that

20 could cause confusion. However, there were instances in July and August

21 when the temperature was high, it was over 30 degrees centigrade, and

22 then people started wearing bandannas so that sweat wouldn't be dripping

23 down since we always had to keep our eyes wide open. We tried to prevent

24 people from doing that; however, that practice didn't last long, it was

25 only during the heat wave in August.

1 Q. What year in July and August, just for the record?

2 A. 1998.

3 Q. Thank you. Did the 122nd Intervention Brigade have any combat

4 vehicles such as tanks or artillery?

5 A. It didn't have any tanks. It had infantry armoured vehicles,

6 BVP, M-90s, then BOVs or B-O-V, Pragas, and I think that's it.

7 Q. Did you hear about the OPG and what do you know about them?

8 A. I did hear of that. Sometime in early 1999 a dispatch arrived in

9 my home unit at the SUP in Belgrade, it was an order, to organize

10 training of policemen to be engaged in operative pursuit groups. Based

11 on the principle of volunteers, lists should have been compiled of those

12 who wished to attend that training. Those people had to meet certain

13 special conditions, namely, to be fit mentally and physically to undergo

14 such training.

15 Q. Now, you mentioned this in passing before, but I'd like to focus

16 on it and get a full answer. Were there any volunteers, that is to say

17 volunteers outside, or outwith, the MUP in your unit and do you know of

18 any volunteer units in the police formations that participated with you

19 in actions in Kosovo?

20 A. No, there were no volunteers in my unit and I didn't hear of any

21 volunteers in other units.

22 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us in which manner you and other PJP

23 commanders ensured that members adhered to the laws and Rules of Service

24 applicable at the time while out in the field?

25 A. I can split those measures into two groups: Preventive and --

1 preventive measures and punitive measures. Preventive measures are

2 undertaken before any action or task. Each unit commander needed to warn

3 the members of his force of the importance of acting within the limits of

4 the law irrespective of how many times they would have to repeat that.

5 They would have to prepare them for the task morally, physically, as well

6 as to instruct them on their conduct. Punitive measures were taken

7 against such policemen who ignored that warning.

8 Q. Were there officers who were in charge of enforcing discipline

9 and did you or other officers within the brigade have occasion in 1998

10 and 1999 to enforce disciplinary measures against PJP members of your

11 brigade?

12 A. In our brigade there were officers at the rank of assistants to

13 the commander for legal conduct and operation. They were sent from the

14 Ministry of Internal Affairs in Belgrade. Their home unit in Belgrade

15 was called the department for the control of lawful work conduct. Those

16 officers had the task to control the work at the level of the brigade in

17 terms of lawful conduct. They were also charged with taking measures in

18 cases when there were violations of the law. I can also say that those

19 officers were not directly subordinated to the detachment commander.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Resubordinated to

21 the detachment commander.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were subordinated to their

23 home unit officer and the secretariat in Belgrade, meaning that they

24 could take measures against any particular member of the detachment

25 including the commander if there was such a need.

1 MR. IVETIC:

2 Q. And during the course of 1998 and 1999, did -- were there

3 occasions where disciplinary measures were enacted against members of

4 your PJP brigade in Kosovo and Metohija?

5 A. Yes. Between 50 and 70 policemen from our detachment faced

6 disciplinary proceedings as well as criminal proceedings. Not all of

7 them, or rather, criminal reports were not submitted against all of them

8 but only against those who had committed crimes. However, they all

9 underwent disciplinary proceedings for serious breaches in the line of

10 work.

11 Q. And for those that had committed crimes, do you know what crimes

12 they had been charged with committing?

13 A. Those were the crimes from the domain of the property-related

14 crime, mainly theft, but there was also smuggling of cattle to Serbia.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: You've given us a figure of between 50 and 70 and

16 you said "from our detachment." Is that 50 to 70 out of 400?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Out of a total of 800, that is to

18 say that I'm referring to the entire brigade, both parts.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

20 Mr. Ivetic.

21 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. Do you recall any specific instances, either in 1998 or 1999,

23 when you were out in the field in Kosovo and Metohija and when your

24 brigade encountered civilians, and if you could give us some concrete

25 examples illustrating those encounters with civilians that you remember.

1 A. I remember there were several such cases, one of them was near

2 Klina in the area of the village of Volujak. I may get one of the

3 village names wrong, but I'm saying that it's in the area of that

4 village. There are quite a few Mahalas or neighbourhoods there, so it's

5 possible that that particular neighbourhood has a different name. In

6 1998 an anti-terrorist action was carried out in the area of the village

7 of the Volujak. I personally did not take part in it, but since I had

8 been away for the weekend I arrived on that very day and I was an

9 eye-witness, when a group of local villagers went out into the road. In

10 front of them was the body of a killed terrorist in uniform with KLA

11 insignia on the shoulder. The body was covered with weapons. One of the

12 officers from the detachment that took part in this action walked up to

13 the villagers. I did not hear the conversation in detail, but later on

14 he said that one of the villagers had said to him that this terrorist had

15 come to the village just before the police arrived in the village and he

16 asked the villagers to fire at the police. They refused to do that, some

17 kind of a problem cropped up, and they killed him. They said that they

18 had killed him in self-defence.

19 Later on the officers from this detachment that took part in this

20 action organized the provision of aid to this village. I think it was

21 food and blankets that were on a truck that arrived in that village and

22 the police went on towards the heights. There was no need for the police

23 to enter, no one had fired at them.

24 Q. Do you know of any other instances that you recall where your

25 brigade encountered civilians and the relations that you had with

1 civilians?

2 A. We did encounter civilians and in some actions in the area of

3 Ovcarevo they were frightened. They had left the village. In order to

4 pacify them we gave them our own food from our own jeeps. In the village

5 of Glodjane, the Catholic Glodjane -- we actually passed through that

6 village twice and every time the local population would meet us all of

7 them together in front of the church. We would exchange greetings with

8 them there, we would ask whether they had any problems, they indeed did

9 have problems with the Albanians from the village of Jablanica who were

10 mistreating them because they were refusing to participate in terrorism.

11 Q. And these Catholic civilians in Glodjane, what ethnicity were

12 they?

13 A. They were Albanians, Catholics.

14 Q. And can you tell us of any other instances that come to mind of

15 encounters with civilians and of interactions with civilians between --

16 with your PJP brigade?

17 A. Sometime in July or August 1998 in Istinic, that's a village in

18 the area of Decani, we visited civilians in their homes and told them

19 that there was no need for them to flee from their village because of the

20 police; they accepted that and they stayed in the village. Our

21 information was that they would flee, that they would leave the village

22 because they were scared of us even before we got there. So only a few

23 of us went in. There was no danger really, no one was firing at us, so

24 only a few of us went into the village and we went from house to house.

25 We talked to the villagers, and that is how we managed to calm the

1 situation down. They stayed in the village, we passed through, and there

2 was no problem whatsoever.

3 Right this moment I cannot remember other instances.

4 Q. Was there any occasion where you saw the KLA intermixed with

5 civilians; and if so, how did your brigade react at that point in time?

6 A. We did see that often after terrorist actions. We saw that there

7 were youngish people who had been injured that were with the civilians.

8 I cannot say that they were terrorists because I have no proof now as I

9 didn't have then. At any rate, when there were suspicions to the effect

10 that they had something to do with crimes, then in accordance with the

11 Law on The Ministry of the Interior such a person can be detained in

12 order to establish that person's identity. Usually it was the paraffin

13 test that was applied and the person would be interviewed at the closest

14 secretariat there; this was done by the regular police or rather, their

15 own crime service. As far as I know, if no link is established with the

16 crime involved, or rather, terrorism in this particular case such persons

17 would have to be released within 24 hours.

18 Q. And do you recall any incidents in the municipality of Klina near

19 the village of Kpuz in 1999 regarding civilians?

20 A. Yes, I've remembered just now. In 1999, I think it was the month

21 of April, the second half of April, we were deployed in the area of the

22 village of Kpuz, in actual fact we were hiding there from NATO aircraft.

23 One day we noticed a column of civilians moving towards the village,

24 these were Albanian civilians. We went out. They passed by us silently.

25 We, to the best of our ability, tried to persuade them that there was no

1 need for them to flee. We talked to those who spoke Serbian and then

2 they would transmit that further, and then these people would stay in the

3 village. These were the most tired people, the weakest people, women,

4 children, the elderly, and they stayed together with us in these houses

5 where we were hiding. I gave an assignment to Captain Loncar or

6 Lieutenant Loncar, perhaps at that time he was still lieutenant. I told

7 him that he would be personally responsible to me for their safety. That

8 is to say that if the terrorists were to attack, the unit would have to

9 engage in anti-terrorist action but he would have to stay behind with

10 part of the anti-terrorist unit to guard these people, to protect them.

11 They lived in those houses together during those few days while we were

12 there, I think it was 10 or 15 days. They prepared food. I often went

13 to them for dinner because these women cooked better than my policemen.

14 So that's what happened there.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic, can you check the location of that for

16 us.

17 MR. IVETIC: Yes, I can, Your Honours, it's K-p-u-z is the name

18 of the village, Kpuz, K-p-u-z.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

20 MR. IVETIC:

21 Q. During the course of anti-terrorist actions in both 1998 and 1999

22 in Kosovo and Metohija, did your unit or your brigade have any casualties

23 from battles with the terrorist forces?

24 A. We had 22 dead, around 70 were seriously wounded, I think it was

25 73. I don't know the exact number of persons who sustained lighter

1 wounds or who simply fell ill, but on the whole about 300 policemen from

2 our brigade were hors de combat.

3 Q. During the course of anti-terrorist action did you have occasion

4 to come across wounded or killed terrorists?

5 A. Not any wounded ones. Killed ones, very seldom, in a few cases,

6 yes.

7 Q. Did you have any information or know or hear of any paramilitary

8 group in Kosovo Polje during the war allegedly wearing uniforms of the

9 police SAJ called the Wolves of the Drina, a group from Bosnia under the

10 command of Karasek Nedeljko, allegedly the former commander of the

11 special brigade of the police of the Republika Srpska from Bosnia with

12 the nickname Legenda?

13 A. I do not have any information of them having been in Kosovo. I

14 happen to know who the commander of the Wolves from the Drina was in

15 Bosnia because he was a classmate of mine at the military academy, it was

16 Milan Jolovic. As for this name, the one that you mentioned just now,

17 Nedeljko Karasek, I don't know about that man.

18 Q. Do you know if Milan Jolovic, your classmate from the military

19 academy, had a nickname?

20 A. Yes, they called him Legenda.

21 Q. Thank you. And was he -- was Milan Jolovic a police cadet like

22 yourself or otherwise?

23 A. Yes, yes, we were in the same room.

24 Q. But was he a member of the police or the army in Bosnia?

25 A. No, he came to the academy as a member of the army too, so after

1 the academy he stayed on in the army and I assume that in Bosnia he was a

2 member of the army as well.

3 Q. Did you ever hear about, have any information, or know about the

4 alleged presence of Arkan's men in Kosovo Polje, also allegedly wearing

5 police uniforms commanded allegedly by Goran Radosavljevic, known as

6 Guri?

7 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry, Your Honour, can we have a page reference

8 to where there's a claim that Goran Radosavljevic was commanding Arkan's

9 men in Kosovo Polje? I may have missed that day.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Is there a foundation for that, Mr. Ivetic?

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted). If we want I could skip this question since I

13 don't have a page reference from the transcript right now for this

14 allegation, and I could return to that after the break since I --

15 JUDGE BONOMY: You could -- well, you can -- yes, return to it

16 after the break. The alternative is to break it into more than one

17 question, but you can try to approach it differently later.

18 MR. IVETIC: Well, I could -- I mean, let me do it -- let me do

19 it as two questions then. Hold on.

20 [Defence counsel confer]

21 MR. IVETIC: I'll break it up into two questions.

22 Q. Did you hear or have any knowledge about the alleged presence of

23 Arkan's men in Kosovo Polje wearing police uniforms as part of the SAJ?

24 A. No.

25 Q. And did you have any information about -- or knowledge about

1 Goran Radosavljevic, known as Guri, allegedly leading Arkan's men or any

2 paramilitary unit?

3 A. I know him, but I don't know of him leading Arkan's men or any

4 other paramilitary unit.

5 Q. Can you tell us if during any anti-terrorist actions that you

6 were a part of you had occasion to witness the involvement of RPOs,

7 reserve police squads, or village security or any other such formation?

8 A. No, I had no contacts whatsoever with them, or rather, my unit

9 didn't.

10 Q. Did you ever send any regular reports to the MUP staff or

11 Sreten Lukic in Pristina regarding your participation in anti-terrorist

12 actions?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Did you as the deputy to Commander Bosko Buha or as the deputy to

15 Commander Zivaljevic who were in charge of the portions of the 122nd

16 Intervention Brigade ever write written reports and forward them to the

17 MUP staff in Pristina in the course of or shortly after anti-terrorist

18 actions?

19 A. No, I never wrote a report, not a single one. Just a moment,

20 please. One report I did write after the Klecka action to my commander,

21 to my own commander, my own brigade commander that is.

22 Q. All right. Now, I would like to move on -- first of all, did

23 there come a time when you took over command from Bosko Buha in the

24 course of an anti-terrorist action that was at that point in time

25 ongoing?

1 A. Yes. That was in 1999 in June. Bosko Buha was wounded I think

2 in the beginning of June, and he was transferred to the hospital in Pec

3 and I took over command.

4 MR. IVETIC: With that I'd like to move to a particular joint

5 anti-terrorist action in 1999, and I would call up Exhibit P2011. And

6 with the help of the usher, I have a hard copy for the witness that might

7 be easier to use since it is multiple pages.

8 Q. And, sir, the first question that I have for you is if you could

9 tell us what kind of document this is.

10 A. Order to crush Siptar terrorist forces in the area of

11 Radonjicko Jezero, Operation Sekac or Action Sekac.

12 Q. If I could direct your attention to section 5 of the assignments

13 to units, that's on the second page of the Serbian and I believe the --

14 it would be the bottom of the second or third page in the English

15 translation -- fourth page of the English translation and ask you to

16 focus and read aloud the first sentence of section 5.1.

17 A. "The 122nd Detachment of the Ministry of the Interior, three PJP

18 companies strong, shall in the first phase from the deployment line of

19 Reka Decanska Bistrica tt 483 and further on to the south-west -- 400

20 metres to the south-west up to the forest-path shall launch an attack

21 along the Maja Kobasit tt 451 axis. The task: By an all-embracing

22 attack from the left and right, crush the enemy forces along the axis of

23 attack and reach tt 451 where conditions shall be created for bringing in

24 2/73."

25 These are actually two companies of the 73rd Detachment, "with a

1 view to maintaining a stable blockade."

2 Q. If we could stop there for the moment. First of all, do you know

3 or can you recognise looking at the document the source of the document,

4 whose document this is?

5 A. On the basis of the heading and the signature, I assume that it's

6 a military document because it says "command of the Pristina Corps" and

7 the signature is Colonel Milan Kotur.

8 Q. Do you recognise which unit is referenced here as the 122nd

9 Detachment of the MUP with three companies in the section and do you

10 recognise the locations and the assignment referenced in section 5.1

11 which you have just read for us?

12 A. Yes, it's my unit.

13 Q. Do you recall participating in this anti-terrorist action?

14 A. I do recall, I did take part.

15 Q. If you could briefly just look, not read out loud, sections 5.2,

16 5.3, 5.4, 5.5, 5.6, 5.7, and 5.8, could you tell us if you recognise

17 precisely which units are identified therein.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: You've given the witness a hard copy of this

19 document?

20 MR. IVETIC: Yes, I have, Your Honours.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, what we'll do is we'll break at this stage,

22 I think.

23 MR. IVETIC: Okay.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: And let him have a read at it during the break and

25 return to it afterwards.

1 Mr. Ilic, we have to have a break at this stage for 20 minutes.

2 While we have the break, could you leave the courtroom with the usher,

3 but take that document with you and read through it so that you can

4 answer counsel's question when you return. So please leave the courtroom

5 now.

6 [The witness stands down]

7 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

8 JUDGE BONOMY: And we shall resume at five past 4.00.

9 --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.

10 --- On resuming at 4.07 p.m.

11 [The witness takes the stand]

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic.

13 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

14 Q. Mr. Ilic, before the break I asked you to look at several

15 paragraphs within the -- within this document and to -- and asked you if

16 you recognised the units identified therein. And the question I wanted

17 to ask you with respect to those paragraphs is: Does this document in

18 those paragraphs give precise and direct instructions and assignments not

19 only for your unit but for VJ and other MUP units as well?

20 A. Yes, this order provides detailed instructions for all

21 participants of this action.

22 Q. Did you have occasion to see this order in the course of

23 preparations or carrying out of this action?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Were you on the terrain the entire time during the course of the

1 undertaking of this action and did your unit participate precisely in the

2 manner as set forth in section 5.1 of the same?

3 A. Yes, although in one part of the action there were some changes.

4 The 63rd Air-borne Brigade, as far as I recall, did not participate in

5 the action. I don't know why. Instead, we have to manoeuvre our forces

6 in order to fill in the gaps. We used the men of my unit, we moved to

7 the right by some 600 metres.

8 Q. And do you know approximately how many days this action lasted?

9 A. 17.

10 Q. On the basis of what written document did you undertake the tasks

11 set forth in section 5.1 of this order?

12 A. Based on the excerpt of the decision on the map.

13 Q. Did this excerpt of the map decision also contain drawn-in

14 assignments of VJ units?

15 A. On that part of the map, or rather, on that excerpt, as far as I

16 recall, the units that were to my right and to my left were drawn in. I

17 cannot remember exactly the map, what it looked like, but more or less it

18 was so. Each time I had to know who was to my left and to my right.

19 Q. And were one of those entities indicated VJ units in addition to

20 MUP units?

21 A. Yes, to be specific item 5.5 there is a unit mentioned there,

22 this being the military police battalion.

23 Q. Do you know personally or were you ever told who drafted this

24 excerpt of a map decision, or gave it to you, when I say "you," I mean

25 the PJP?

1 A. I didn't see this order during the action. I worked on the basis

2 of the excerpt from the map decision; however, I don't know, I don't

3 remember, anymore whether it had a title, a heading, and a signature

4 block.

5 Q. Were you ever told where this excerpt from the map came from?

6 A. My commander, Bosko Buha, told me that he had received it during

7 the briefing session when he was issued tasks to be executed, although I

8 cannot recall right now who he said he had received it from.

9 Q. Do you recall who led, managed, or in Serbian "rukovodio", the

10 whole action?

11 A. Our unit, I have my detachment in mind, was commanded by

12 Bosko Buha. He told me that the whole action was led by Colonel Kotur.

13 Q. And did you understand who Pukovnik Kotur was, what formation was

14 he from?

15 A. Yes, I knew that he was with the army.

16 Q. Could you tell us how the action was undertaken and if there were

17 any specific problems that were encountered in the course of its

18 execution?

19 A. The action lasted 17 days and it was one of the most difficult

20 operations in Kosovo. We were fired at by the terrorists and there were

21 air-strikes simultaneously. Any movement was dangerous due to the

22 bombardment. There were problems within the chain of command, namely,

23 between my commander, Bosko Buha, and Colonel Kotur; my commander,

24 Bosko Buha, told me about that. Because of that issue, a few days after

25 Bosko Buha had been wounded General Obrad Stevanovic arrived to deal with

1 it.

2 Q. And you say that General Obrad Stevanovic arrived to deal with

3 this problem. Do you recall what his specific role or function within

4 the Ministry of the Interior was at that time, and I'm talking about

5 General Obrad Stevanovic?

6 A. I knew at the time that he was the commander of the PJP.

7 Q. Do you recall whom or who was present for this meeting or

8 gathering with General Obrad Stevanovic to deal with the problem that had

9 arisen?

10 A. At the meeting, I attended as Bosko Buha's deputy. He had been

11 wounded just one or two days before that. In addition to

12 General Stevanovic, there were other attendees, including the commanders

13 of the police stations participating in the action as well as commanders

14 of the SAJ, commander of the 23rd Detachment of the PJP by the name of

15 Borisa Josipovic and several army colonels. I cannot remember whether

16 Colonel Kotur was there.

17 Q. Okay. Do you recall who created a plan of communications for the

18 Sekac action as regards your unit?

19 A. As regards our unit, we had assistant commander for

20 communication, and it would have been logical that he had created it

21 although I cannot remember whether it was indeed so.

22 Q. During the course of any action undertaken by your PJP unit in

23 1998 or 1999, did you within any plan for communications have code terms

24 such as match, Sibica, or Gumica, eraser, indicating commands to either

25 liquidate civilians or set houses on fire?

1 A. No, there were codes in the communications plan, but never for

2 such things.

3 Q. Now, if we compare this action, Sekac, of which we've been

4 speaking to actions in 1998, do you recall if there were any occasions in

5 1998 when you acted in the capacity of a company commander for your PJP

6 unit?

7 A. Yes, there were.

8 Q. Do you specifically recall any joint actions from 1998 with the

9 VJ and how they were undertaken?

10 A. I do recall that. On the 28th of August, 1998, so in late August

11 give or take a day or two, my commander, Zivaljevic, ordered to me to

12 take one of our brigade companies and that I shall be resubordinated to

13 Colonel Kotur in the area of Prizren. One day prior to the action I went

14 there and met with Colonel Kotur. We went to our initial positions in

15 the area of Blace village. The area was that of Dulje and the village

16 was Blace. He issued me the tasks orally and he gave me the excerpt of

17 the map decision --

18 Q. If I could just interrupt you there for a second. If I could

19 just interfere for a second. You said your commander, Zivaljevic. Was

20 your commander at that time Zivaljevic or was there another individual at

21 that point in time who commanded the brigade?

22 A. At that moment it may have been Ivan Maksimovic, but he was there

23 until mid-September 1998, he was commander. After that, Zivaljevic was

24 appointed commander.

25 Q. Now if you can continue, first of all, you said you were given an

1 excerpt of a map decision. Did this excerpt of a map decision given to

2 you by Colonel Kotur have both clearly and precisely depicted assignments

3 of army and MUP units for this action in 1998 in the area of Dulje?

4 A. Yes, our tasks were drawn in concerning the police and the army

5 and the map was coded, it had digits.

6 Q. Do you know who drew this map?

7 A. No, I don't remember whether it was signed.

8 Q. Was this action actually executed; and if so, who led or managed

9 or, in Serbian, "rukovodio", the forces involved in that action?

10 A. The action was executed. I received my orders directly from

11 Colonel Kotur. Some army forces participated, although I don't know

12 which exactly, there were some armoured mechanised units there as well as

13 the special anti-terrorist unit of the Ministry of the Interior of the

14 Republic of Serbia; however, they moved along a different axis and we

15 were independent, on our own.

16 Q. Just waiting for the transcript to catch up with us. Now, can

17 you tell us about the resistance encountered from the KLA on the ground

18 during the course of this action?

19 A. The first day one of our men was killed and we had three wounded;

20 the next day we went through a forest and we went in depth into enemy

21 territory. We managed to reach their stronghold, however, around 30 army

22 reservists who were keeping our back simply abandoned their positions for

23 reasons unbeknown to me and we had to revert to circular defence. We

24 fought them in that formation for three days and two nights. During that

25 time they used the same communication lines, the same frequencies, as we

1 did. When I say "they," I mean the terrorists. By using the radio

2 communication they threatened that they would set us on fire. I remember

3 that because later when we reached Klecka we found a place where some

4 Serbs had been burned, it was a crematorium.

5 Q. Thank you. Did you have occasion to see the KLA fleeing from the

6 region at any point in time during the battle -- during this battle?

7 A. Yes, on the third day when they realized they won't be able to

8 breakthrough our positions, they probably decided to pull back towards

9 the mountains. During the withdrawal from the village of Klecka, I

10 believe, which was approximately 5 kilometres from where we were, they

11 collected all of the civilians there, women, the elderly, and children.

12 When I saw that through my binoculars, I ordered that the firing on the

13 terrorists should cease and they pulled back towards the mountains

14 together with the civilians. What I could see was that the terrorists

15 were wearing black uniforms.

16 Q. Thank you. Now to move onto some other points. Did you ever

17 have occasion in the course of your activities in Kosovo and Metohija to

18 undertake any action based upon a written order or map entitled "Joint

19 Command for Kosovo and Metohija"?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Did you ever have occasion to see or operate on the basis of any

22 written order or map decision signed or entitled by the MUP staff in

23 Pristina?

24 A. No.

25 Q. During the course of the war did you have occasion to undertake

1 any anti-terrorist operations per the orders of any chief of any

2 secretariat of the interior?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Did you during the course of the war undertake any anti-terrorist

5 action based upon any written maps drafted by yourself?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Did you have occasion to accept any orders from any MUP superior

8 officer to forcibly evict ethnic Albanian civilians from their homes on

9 the territory of Kosovo and Metohija?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Did you ever on your own initiative give orders to your policemen

12 to forcibly evict and deport ethnic Albanians from their homes in

13 Kosovo-Metohija?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Did you ever receive orders from any MUP superiors or on your own

16 initiative order your own policemen to take and/or destroy identity

17 documents from ethnic Albanian civilians?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Did you ever receive orders from any MUP superior or on your own

20 initiative order your own policemen to take away money and other

21 valuables from ethnic Albanian civilians?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Did you ever hear from any of your superiors orders that you

24 should tolerate the killing of Albanian civilians by any members of the

25 police?

1 A. No.

2 Q. Did you during the course of the war in 1999 hear or otherwise

3 find out about massacres of Albanian civilians on the part of the police

4 specifically in places such as Meja, Izbica, Djakovica, Mala Krusa,

5 Bela Crkva, Suva Reka, or Kotlina?

6 A. Excuse me, did you ask me during the war?

7 Q. Yes.

8 A. No.

9 Q. Did you ever have occasion to hear during the war any information

10 that the police at joint VJ and police check-points was tolerating crimes

11 such as murder, rape, theft, et cetera?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Did you ever receive orders or give orders on your own for houses

14 of ethnic Albanians to be burned or looted?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Mr. Ilic, thank you for your answers to my questions.

17 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I have no more direct examination for

18 this witness.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.

20 Mr. Ilic, could you clarify one thing for me at this stage. When

21 did the two detachments, the 121st and 122nd, merge to form the 122nd

22 Intervention Brigade?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it was sometime in October

24 1998.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: After that date were they still separately known

1 as the 121st and 122nd Detachments of that brigade?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After that date, the unit was

3 called the 122nd Intervention Brigade. It comprised the units from the

4 regional secretariat, one of them being the police brigade; however, I

5 didn't go into that so as not to confuse you because the names are almost

6 identical. There was the police brigade and the 122nd Intervention

7 Brigade; however, these were not the same units.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: On the screen we still have P2011, I think. Can

9 we go to the beginning of that.

10 Now, you'll see that's dated the 20th of May.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Now can we go to -- let's go to paragraph --

13 beginning of paragraph 5.

14 MR. IVETIC: Page 4 of the English, I believe; page 2 of the

15 B/C/S.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, you'll see in 5.1 a clear reference to the

17 122nd MUP Detachment. Can you explain that in light of what you've just

18 said to me?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is a possibility that I mixed

20 up the numbers. The 122nd MUP Detachment, if I said the 121st, I made a

21 mistake. I cannot recall exactly now whether it's the 121st or the 122nd

22 because --

23 JUDGE BONOMY: That's not what I'm asking you. You told me that

24 it became known as the intervention brigade and not as separate

25 detachments. Now, here we are in May, several months after you say that

1 the two were merged to form the 122nd Intervention Brigade and there's a

2 clear reference to a detachment rather than a -- the intervention

3 brigade. Can you explain that?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand your question, it was

5 called the 122nd Intervention Brigade of the MUP but from time to time

6 the term "detachment" was used. It's a synonym. The same unit was meant

7 by it, or rather, part of that same unit.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: And when the two were merged into the intervention

9 brigade, do I understand correctly that the commander of your detachment

10 became the commander of the intervention brigade and the deputy commander

11 of your detachment became the deputy commander of the intervention

12 brigade?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When the unit was established, I'm

14 referring to the 122nd Intervention Brigade, so this was roughly in the

15 month of October, Colonel Zivaljevic was appointed commander of that

16 brigade; his deputy was Bosko Buha. I do not know exactly whether in the

17 month of August he was assistant commander to Ivan Maksimovic. I cannot

18 exactly recall his post, but from October onwards the top echelon was as

19 I told you, Zivaljevic and Bosko Buha.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

21 Now, is there cross-examination by any other Defence counsel?

22 Mr. Pavkovic -- Mr. Ackerman.

23 Cross-examination by Mr. Ackerman:

24 MR. ACKERMAN: I may be confused, Mr. Witness. My name is

25 John Ackerman, I represent General Pavkovic by the way. Maybe you can

1 help me understand.

2 Q. Did you tell us during your testimony that you were at one point

3 actually subordinated to the VJ?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And who gave you the order? Where'd that order come from?

6 A. My commander, Colonel Zivaljevic, or even Maksimovic. I can't

7 remember exactly now who it was exactly, but it was one of the two who

8 told me that.

9 Q. So once you received the order from one of those two, then you

10 came under the command of an army officer; and who was that?

11 A. Colonel Kotur.

12 Q. And tell me the orders you received from him.

13 A. He gave me an assignment within an assignment. The axis of

14 action, the zone of responsibility, the objective, and the way in which

15 the objective would be attained. From then onwards I had radio

16 communication with him and I reported to him on the implementation of

17 that task. While I was under siege, I was also communicating with him

18 via radio, but on a separate channel not the channel that the terrorists

19 were listening in to but a separate, protected channel.

20 Q. How many people did you have under your command?

21 A. Less than a full company, about 70 or 80 policemen.

22 Q. And within the course of that action or thereafter, was there

23 ever an occasion when any of them were arrested for committing any kind

24 of a crime and tried by the military court, turned over to military

25 authorities since they were subordinated?

1 A. No. I'll state this very clearly. In this process of

2 resubordination absolutely all responsibility for the behaviour of my

3 policemen was borne by me personally, that is to say that Colonel Kotur

4 had nothing to do with it whatsoever.

5 Q. Well, what chain of command were you operating in then, were you

6 operating in a police chain of command or a military chain of command?

7 A. At that moment I was receiving orders from Colonel Kotur, he is a

8 military officer. As for the further chain of command, I don't know

9 about that. I only communicated with him.

10 Q. If you had gotten orders from one of these other superiors that

11 you mentioned earlier from the police that conflicted with your orders

12 from Kotur, who would you have obeyed?

13 A. I could not have received such orders until the officers who gave

14 me the order to be resubordinated withdrew that basic order which was

15 related to all the other orders I received from Colonel Kotur. That is

16 to say, in order for me to carry out orders given by the police, the

17 officer who gave me that order to be resubordinated to Colonel Kotur

18 would have to withdraw that order first and foremost; in case such an

19 order was not withdrawn, I would be carrying out Colonel Kotur's orders.

20 Q. Well, let me see if I can put it a different way. You're in the

21 midst of the action; Colonel Kotur says, Attack down this hill; and the

22 police person who told you you were subordinated at the same time tells

23 you to withdraw your forces which one are you going to do?

24 A. I would ask that policeman, that officer, to define for me first

25 and foremost whether the resubordination was still in force. If it was

1 still in force, then I could carry out only the orders issued by

2 Colonel Kotur; if it is no longer in force, then I can carry out that

3 policeman's orders. These two contrary orders cannot be put together.

4 Q. Did you ever see any kind of an order in writing subordinating

5 your organization to the VJ or any MUP organization to the VJ or PJP to

6 the VJ, a written order? Did you ever see one?

7 A. Are you referring to a specific action or do you mean in general?

8 Q. Well, let's talk about in general first and then specific second.

9 Did you have such a written order in general that you ever saw, and did

10 you have such a written order in specific that you ever saw?

11 A. No, no. I did not see a general order and the specific order is

12 this order here, "zapovest."

13 Q. And did the people operating under your command in that

14 particular action commit any war crimes that you're aware of?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Were you in a position to know that, could you observe what they

17 were doing at all times?

18 A. Not of each and every individual, but for most of them, yes,

19 because it was in a forested area. However, I'm sure that they did not

20 commit any crimes.

21 Q. Did you have squad commanders or something like that under you

22 whose duty it would have been to report to you if they had?

23 A. Yes, I had squad commanders or platoon commanders and it was

24 their duty to lead their platoons and to be responsible for their

25 functioning during this action.

1 Q. And I take it you received no reports of any crimes committed by

2 any people within that command or under the command of any of your

3 platoon or squad commanders; true?

4 A. That's right.

5 Q. That's all I have. Thank you.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bakrac.

7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Cross-examination by Mr. Bakrac:

9 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Ilic, I'm Mihajlo Bakrac and

10 I'm Defence counsel for General Vladimir Lazarevic.

11 A. Good afternoon.

12 Q. I'd like to add something to my colleague's questions because

13 there were some things that were not quite clear to me. Please clarify

14 this for me, we're talking about August 1998 and this alleged

15 resubordination to Colonel Kotur then, so I'm talking about that action.

16 Did you receive orders orally or in writing that you would be

17 resubordinated?

18 A. Orally.

19 Q. So there was no written order, it was your superior, Zivaljevic,

20 who told you that you would be resubordinated?

21 A. Yes, exactly, except that I'm not sure whether it was Zivaljevic

22 or Ivan Maksimovic. I cannot recall, that is.

23 Q. Thank you. Now, my question is related to 1999, the Sekac

24 action. My colleague Mr. Ivetic asked you about that. Were you

25 resubordinated to the Army of Yugoslavia then and to Colonel Kotur?

1 A. Then I was carrying out the orders of my commander, Bosko Buha.

2 I don't know whether I was resubordinated to them. So it is according to

3 that logic that I got orders exclusively from my commander, Bosko Buha.

4 Q. You have a hard copy and I think it's still on our screens.

5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Could we please have a look at

6 P2011.

7 Q. My colleague Mr. Ivetic showed you points 4, 5 -- since you are a

8 graduate of the military academy and you say that you're not sure and

9 that you don't know by the very logic of this you were not

10 resubordinated, let us have a look at paragraph 3 together. Do you see

11 it in front of you? And you also have it in hard copy, if I'm not

12 mistaken. Please look at the first page. Do you have the document in

13 front of you?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. The first page, paragraph 3. You will agree with me, since you

16 are a graduate of the military academy, that what is written here is

17 4/124 Brigade, 23rd, 73rd, and 122nd Detachment of the MUP of Serbia in

18 concerted action with the units of the PRK, the Pristina Corps. You will

19 agree with me that you -- that had you been resubordinated, it wouldn't

20 have said in concerted action or in coordination action. You have

21 graduated from the military academy, right --

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Just a moment.

23 Mr. Ivetic.

24 MR. IVETIC: Multiple objections. First of all, as far as I can

25 tell there's multiple questions in here. He's going to have to break

1 them up if he's going to ask them, and the one I have the most concern

2 with appears to be asking him to make a legal conclusion based upon the

3 drafting of this document which I believe he said he did not draft. So I

4 would say that that's an improper question on that grounds, but again

5 there's multiple questions here. If he answers one is he answering one

6 or all of them I don't know. So I think he needs to break --

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Once you remove "you have graduated from the

8 military academy," --

9 MR. IVETIC: Correct.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: -- which we all know, is there not just one

11 question?

12 MR. IVETIC: Correct, correct.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that's the question, and that question on

14 the face of it appears perfectly proper.

15 So let's proceed, Mr. Bakrac, you may ask that question.

16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Witness, my question is the following: Had you been

18 resubordinated to the Army of Yugoslavia, would it have said here, In

19 concerted action or in coordinated action, the MUP units with the units

20 of the Pristina Corps?

21 A. I don't know what would have been written in that case, but I do

22 know that coordinated action and resubordination are not one and the same

23 institution.

24 Q. Thank you. You said that this specific action of Sekac was led

25 by Colonel Kotur.

1 A. I did not say that.

2 Q. So who led this action?

3 A. What I said was that my commander, Bosko Buha, told me that he

4 was receiving orders from Colonel Kotur and that he had had some kind of

5 a clash with him.

6 Q. Who did you receive your orders from?

7 A. My commander, Bosko Buha.

8 Q. Did you see or hear via radio communication or in some other way,

9 did you have any knowledge of Colonel Kotur issuing orders to your

10 commander, Bosko Buha?

11 A. No.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: You told us that Buha was wounded and that you

13 took over for him. Now, who did you get your orders from after you had

14 taken over?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I took over I received orders

16 from the commander of the 23rd Detachment of the PJP, Borisa Josipovic,

17 and that is what Bosko Buha had ordered me to do. He told me that I

18 would be receiving my further orders from this officer.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bakrac.

20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Yet again, you did not hear that Josipovic was receiving his

22 orders from Kotur, right?

23 A. No, I personally did not hear that.

24 Q. And he personally did not say that to you, right?

25 A. No, he did not talk to me about that at all.

1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Could we please have a look at

2 5D1382 now.

3 Q. Sir, before we have a look at this document, do you know who the

4 chief of the SUP in Djakovica was?

5 A. I think -- I think his name is Kovacevic, but I cannot say that

6 with any degree of certainty.

7 Q. Do you know Suka Vogelj?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Please have a look at page 2. This is a combat order of the

10 forward command post of the Pristina Corps dated the 22nd May, 1999.

11 Have a look at the first paragraph. Following the readiness on the 23rd

12 at 0500 hours, please read out the sentence beginning with: "The action

13 will be led by ..."

14 A. This document?

15 Q. No, the one on the screen.

16 A. Can you please repeat your question.

17 Q. You see the first paragraph on the second page, the second

18 sentence mentions combat-readiness on the 25th and then there is another

19 sentence.

20 A. "The leadership of the action, Colonel Milan Kotur, with the

21 chief of SUP Djakovica, an observation point at the Suka Vogelj feature."

22 Q. Can we see from the document that the action was led also by the

23 Djakovica SUP chief in terms of police units?

24 A. Yes, that's what it says.

25 Q. Do you have any reason to believe that on the 22nd of May, 1999,

1 the person who drafted this combat order, or rather, report falsely

2 portrayed the facts and wrote an untruth --

3 MR. IVETIC: Objection, Your Honour. It calls for speculation.

4 The witness has already given his knowledge.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Seems a pretty pointless question, Mr. Bakrac.

6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm not asking him to

7 speculate, I'm asking him whether he has reason to believe that someone

8 maybe wrote down something which was untrue.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Move onto something else.

10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Did you issue an order, I'm talking about this action, to your

12 subordinate units?

13 A. Yes, orally, to my companies.

14 Q. You, personally?

15 A. I did that in three cases.

16 Q. Since you didn't see this order on the Sekac operation at the

17 time, what did you issue your orders, or rather, on the basis of what did

18 you issue your orders?

19 A. Based on the excerpt of the map decision.

20 Q. The excerpt of the map decision envisaged movements and the

21 dynamics of the action throughout the 17 days; is that what you're

22 saying?

23 A. The excerpts envisaged tasks for those 17 days. In the excerpt

24 it doesn't say 17 days, you will not find that, because no one knew how

25 long it would take. An excerpt from the map decision shows you a task

1 completely laid out, and as to how long it will take, well, no one knows

2 that.

3 Q. If I understood correctly, you received several excerpts?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. In a single day or in the course of several days?

6 A. I cannot recall at this moment. I had three different axes of

7 attack and I should have received an excerpt for each one of them.

8 Q. Who did you receive those excerpts from?

9 A. From my commander Bosko Buha.

10 Q. Is your commander, Bosko Buha, a graduate of the military

11 academy?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Is Mr. Zivaljevic a graduate of the military academy?

14 A. No.

15 Q. The commander of the PJP, Obrad Stevanovic, was he a graduate?

16 A. Yes.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ilic, is Mr. Buha still alive?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

20 Mr. Bakrac.

21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. At the military academy is there such a course - excuse me if I'm

23 being imprecise - but a course concerning planning?

24 A. Yes, up to the company level.

25 Q. At the military academy are there any courses concerning the

1 drawing-up and interpreting of maps?

2 A. We have to define what you mean by drawing-up, this is usually

3 done by surveyors; however, to draw a decision on a map, to portray it on

4 that layout, yes, that is studied up to the level of company.

5 Q. You as a military academy graduate as well as General Stevanovic

6 and Assistant Staff Commander Mijatovic, he's also a graduate, is he not?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. All of you were trained by virtue of that you were the alumni of

9 the military academy to make maps?

10 A. Yes, up to the level of company. Can I explain?

11 Q. Please do.

12 A. At the centre of military schools of Marsal Tito, when I

13 attended, including many people who participated in military and police

14 actions in Kosovo, there were three schools in total, the first one was

15 the military academy. Providing education for military commanding

16 personnel up to the level of company. Second, command staff academy up

17 to the level of battalion commander. And the third one is the School of

18 National Defence, providing education for commanders at the level of

19 brigade and up, these being division, corps, and the army. Those of us

20 who completed the military academy and who came from the ministry only

21 attended courses at that academy and not at the other two.

22 Q. What about General Stevanovic, commander of the PJP, was he

23 educated at any of the others?

24 A. No, neither of them.

25 Q. You know that for a fact?

1 A. I think it's a fact.

2 Q. Do you know a MUP member by the name of Radoslav Djinovic?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Please explain what his post was in 1998 and 1999 in Kosovo?

5 A. I don't know whether he was in Kosovo in 1998 and 1999.

6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Let's have a look at Exhibit P1505,

7 please.

8 Q. Under Roman numeral I, just below David Gajic it says, Assistant

9 head of staff for interventions and operative planning

10 Colonel Radoslav Djinovic. Does this refresh your memory?

11 A. No, it does not. Does it say up until what time he was in

12 Kosovo?

13 Q. That's what I'm asking you, whether you know if he was in Kosovo

14 or not?

15 A. I stand by my previous answer, I don't know whether he was in

16 Kosovo in 1998 or 1999 since I came there in June 1998.

17 Q. Another witness here who was the chief of the Prizren SUP knows

18 that Djinovic was in Kosovo in those two years.

19 A. I was there as of June 1998 and I did not see Djinovic in Kosovo.

20 Q. Tell me, since you completed the academy maybe you can assist us,

21 what does it mean head of staff -- assistant to the head of staff for

22 interventions and operational planning, what does it mean?

23 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I have to object. There's no

24 foundation that this witness has any knowledge of this document that he

25 assisted in the drafting of it or --

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

2 Mr. Bakrac, what is your basis for asking this question of this

3 witness?

4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness completed

5 the military academy. Now he's an instructor at the school -- well, the

6 gendarme instructor and he's a highly positioned official within the

7 police. I'm interested in the staff for K and M. He says he's not

8 familiar with the document; however, my question is simple: He should

9 offer his interpretation given his educational background and given his

10 current post to tell us what it means, assistant head for intervention

11 and operational planning. What is operational planning?

12 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I maintain my objection.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Just a moment, please.

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 JUDGE BONOMY: We'll sustain the objection to this question.

16 There is no basis so far established for this witness to have knowledge

17 on which he could say on -- say anything that would assist us in relation

18 to the nature of the position referred to as assistant head for

19 interventions and operational planning of the MUP staff. If you want to

20 pursue the matter further, you'll need to establish some foundation for

21 doing so, Mr. Bakrac. There's nothing to suggest that this is a military

22 document.

23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it is not a military

24 document, it's a police document.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: We've adjudicated the matter. Please proceed with

1 your next question.

2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honour.

3 Let us have a look at Exhibit 5D476 now, please.

4 Q. Sir, this is a document of the Pristina Corps command dated the

5 9th of April, 1999. Please read the second paragraph.

6 A. "The staff of the Serbian MUP for Kosovo and Metohija has issued

7 an order to all secretariats of the interior to commence planning actions

8 to crush the terrorist groups that remain in their respective zones of

9 responsibility."

10 Q. Mr. Ilic, do you know whether the MUP staff for KiM issued any

11 orders to the secretariats to commence with such planning?

12 A. I don't.

13 Q. Very well.

14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Let us have a look at Exhibit P1993.

15 Q. Sir, this is minutes of a meeting held in Pristina at the staff

16 for K and M. It seems that among those present your commander,

17 Bosko Buha, was there as well. We can see that on the first page. Do

18 you agree with that?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Let us go to --

21 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, if I could just take the break to

22 indicate an apparent error in translation in the English. At line 6 it

23 says the 122nd International Brigade where as in the Serbian it just says

24 "INT" period.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Line 6 of what?

1 MR. IVETIC: Of this document, Your Honour, P1993. It's on the

2 screen right now, item 6 or paragraph 6 says 122 International Brigade,

3 whereas in the Serbian it says 122 INT period in the Cyrillic.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ilic, looking at number 6 on that page, would

5 you read that line to us, please.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Item 6: "Deputy commander of the

7 122nd Intervention Brigade, Lieutenant-Colonel Dragan Nikolic."

8 MR. HANNIS: And, Your Honour, I would note that at page 2 of

9 both the English and B/C/S, item number 2 has INT period with a

10 parenthetical as intervention.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: What -- my curiosity, Mr. Ilic, but what is the

12 relationship in the command structure between Nikolic and Buha?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Dragan Nikolic was

14 Colonel Zivaljevic's deputy in the part of the 122nd Intervention Brigade

15 that was located in the area of Podujevo.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: So --

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Therefore, he had no direct

18 dealings with Bosko, Commander Bosko.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

20 Mr. Bakrac.

21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. Mr. Ilic, let us have a look at page 6 of the document next, it's

23 the penultimate page. Please read out -- we can see here that the

24 assistant minister of the interior, and as you said he was also commander

25 of the PJP, took part in a discussion. In item 1 it says:

1 "Anti-terrorist actions." I'm interested in the next paragraph beginning

2 with: "Now it should be organized ..."

3 Could you please read it out.

4 A. "Smaller actions should be organized or sporadic local actions

5 should be organized in many minor positions (places). Each SUP and

6 OPJP," I don't know what it stands for exactly, "will establish a list of

7 priorities in anti-terrorist actions with a detailed plan to be approved

8 by the staff."

9 Q. You don't know what OPJP stands for?

10 A. OPJP, I cannot recall. PJP is special police units, but I'm

11 confused by the O. The O probably stands for "odred," detachment,

12 detachment of the special police units.

13 Q. You will agree with me that in this record, in these minutes,

14 from the MUP staff meeting dated the 11th of May the assistant minister

15 and commander of the PJP clearly states, points out that every SUP and

16 every PJP detachment shall set their own order of priorities, so they do

17 it on their own of the anti-terrorist actions with a detailed plan that

18 would be approved by the MUP -- by the MUP staff?

19 A. Yes, I agree.

20 Q. So the planning of anti-terrorist actions for the MUPs for

21 compositions is carried out in the SUP and the PJPs on the order issued

22 by the assistant minister and commander of the PJP and the staff approves

23 these plans; is that not evident?

24 MR. IVETIC: I object, Your Honour. That's calling for

25 speculation beyond --

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic, sorry?

2 MR. IVETIC: That's calling for speculation beyond the scope of

3 the document, beyond the scope of the knowledge that the witness has thus

4 far given us as to any foundation for this question.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bakrac, what's your basis for saying that the

6 witness would know what was happening beyond his own direct experience of

7 his involvement in what he's already told us about?

8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it is possible that

9 Bosko Buha, the commander, or Dragan Nikolic, I don't know now who the

10 original commander of the witness's was, conveyed his impressions of the

11 meeting that was held at the MUP staff, or rather, not his impressions

12 but what General Obrad Stevanovic said.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, if that's what you want to ask him, please

14 ask him that; but don't ask him to interpret a document and speculate

15 about what might have happened in relation to the document.

16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Did your commander, whoever it was, convey to you that

18 Obrad Stevanovic at the meeting that was held at the MUP staff ordered

19 that detailed, precise plans would be established by the SUPs and the PJP

20 detachments in the fight against terrorists along with precise plans that

21 would be approved by the staff? Was this information conveyed to you?

22 A. I do not recall.

23 Q. Thank you, Witness.

24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

25 questions for this witness.

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Bakrac.

2 Mr. Ilic, you'll now be cross-examined by the Prosecutor,

3 Mr. Stamp.

4 Mr. Stamp.

5 MR. IVETIC: Mr. Hannis.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: I apologise, Mr. Hannis. Obviously my

7 recollection of identity is deserting me today.

8 Mr. Hannis.

9 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour. No problem.

10 Cross-examination by Mr. Hannis:

11 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Ilic. You told us --

12 A. Good afternoon.

13 Q. -- in your background that after you completed the academy you

14 worked as an assistant commander and then as a station commander, that is

15 to say the commander of a police station. What police station were you a

16 commander of?

17 A. The Grocka police station, it is a police station of the

18 secretariat of the interior of Belgrade.

19 Q. And how big a station is that? How many men did you command?

20 A. It's a second-class police station, as far as I can recall, and

21 it had about 120 employees.

22 Q. And from when to when did you do that?

23 A. From 1993 until 1996.

24 JUDGE CHOWHAN: Sorry, what would be a second-class police

25 station? I mean, were they classified as first-class and second-class

1 police stations?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A first-class police station is a

3 bigger police station with a larger number of employees and they

4 probably -- and they most often belonged to cities. Belgrade has a total

5 of 16 municipalities, ten of them are big ones, urban ones, and six are

6 smaller ones in the rural part surrounding metropolitan Belgrade. So the

7 smaller ones are those that have a smaller number of employees and

8 they're called second-class police stations.

9 MR. HANNIS:

10 Q. Thank you. You told us that you have been engaged in the PJP

11 since their establishment in 1993. Does the PJP still exist today?

12 A. Special police units were disbanded when the gendarmerie was

13 established, that is to say in 2000 or in 2001. I think it was 2001.

14 Q. Thank you. You told us that according to the rules on the use of

15 special police units, and you said that you didn't know the exact title

16 of the document, the tasks of the PJPs are defined, included

17 anti-terrorist actions. Now, what do you know about who gets to decide

18 whether, when, where, and how the PJP will be used? What can you tell us

19 about that?

20 A. I knew then as platoon commander and deputy commander of a

21 company and ultimately commander of a company that PJPs in the

22 secretariat of the interior in Belgrade are engaged by the chief of the

23 police administration upon approval of the commander of the PJPs. Ex

24 officio he always has to know about the engagement of special police

25 units and he should approve that officially.

1 Q. And in 1998 and 1999, who was that person?

2 A. I don't know exactly.

3 Q. Now --

4 JUDGE BONOMY: There are two people there, Mr. Hannis, are there

5 not?

6 MR. HANNIS: Well --

7 JUDGE BONOMY: One's the chief of the police administration and

8 the other is the commander of the PJP. Do you know the identity of

9 either of these in 1998 and 1999?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know the commander of the special

11 police units in 1998 and 1999 was General Obrad Stevanovic.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

13 Mr. Hannis.

14 MR. HANNIS:

15 Q. Thank you. And you didn't know who the chief of the police

16 administration was; is that right?

17 A. In 1998 and in 1999 I think that the chief of the police

18 administration was the same person, General Obrad Stevanovic.

19 Q. Thank you. In the PJP in 1998 and 1999, did you hold a rank; and

20 if so, what was that?

21 A. In 1998 I was a major and in 1999 I was a lieutenant-colonel.

22 Q. When did you get promoted?

23 A. In February 1999.

24 Q. I think you said earlier in your testimony that you came to

25 Kosovo in June of 1998. Did you stay there the whole time or did you go

1 back to Belgrade for a while and then return again later? Can you tell

2 us about that.

3 A. No, I was not there all the time. I came in the beginning of

4 June 1998, that's when I came to Kosovo. On the 25th of June I returned

5 to Belgrade. In the beginning of July of the same year I went back to

6 Kosovo and I stayed there sometime until the beginning of September.

7 However, a few times I would be off during the weekend. These were long

8 weekends, five or six days that I would be off, but I don't know exactly

9 when that was. When the agreement was signed on the reduction of forces,

10 security forces in Kosovo - I don't know the exact name of this

11 agreement - with half of the unit of the Belgrade detachment - at that

12 time it was still called the detachment - but I'm talking about the unit

13 that is the counterpart of the 122nd Brigade. So half of that unit was

14 withdrawn from Kosovo to Belgrade to carry out their regular duties and

15 tasks, and I went to Belgrade along with them. Sometime in the month of

16 November, I think, I came to Kosovo yet again with a part of that unit, I

17 think it was three or four companies. The commander of that part -- or

18 perhaps it would be better for me to say the leader of that shift was

19 Bosko Buha and I was his deputy, and we were stationed in Pec. In

20 February 1999 -- well, I'm trying to say that after that shift I returned

21 to Belgrade. And in February 1999, yet again I came to Kosovo with

22 approximately the same forces, that is to say four companies. I was

23 stationed in Pec and that is when I was the leader of that particular

24 shift.

25 I don't know exactly when it was that I returned to Belgrade, I

1 think it was the beginning of March; and in Belgrade I carried out my

2 regular tasks up until a day or two before the bombing started, so that

3 would be the 22nd or 23rd of March, that's when I came to Kosovo. I came

4 on my own and I joined Colonel Zivaljevic in part of the 122nd

5 Intervention Brigade, in that part that was in Podujevo. I was sent

6 there on the orders of the commanding officer of my home unit in Belgrade

7 because our company commander got killed. So this company had a very low

8 morale because that was a very popular commander, the one who got killed.

9 My task was to deal with the psychological situation and the morale of

10 the unit and to take part in action with them as company commander.

11 During those days this action was being carried out in the area of

12 Podujevo. I cannot remember exactly what the names of the villages were.

13 If we were to have a map here I would remember, but it was the area of

14 Podujevo. This action went on for about seven or eight days

15 approximately, and after that action, at the request of Bosko Buha, that

16 is to say the commander of that part of the detachment that was in Pec,

17 and with the approval of Commander Zivaljevic, I was moved to Pec, or

18 rather, the part of the detachment that was commanded by Bosko Buha.

19 Q. Let me interrupt you there because it's almost time for our break

20 and we'll pick up afterwards if that's all right with Your Honours.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Hannis.

22 Mr. Ilic, we need a break again at this stage for half an hour.

23 Could you again please leave the courtroom with the usher and we will see

24 you again at 6.00.

25 [The witness stands down]

1 --- Recess taken at 5.32 p.m.

2 --- On resuming at 6.01 p.m.

3 [The witness takes the stand]

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis.

5 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Q. Mr. Ilic, I think you before the break told us that you had come

7 back to Kosovo a day or two before the bombing started. After that, did

8 you remain in Kosovo until the middle of June when the agreement was

9 signed and the Serbian forces withdrew from Kosovo?

10 A. Yes, and on a couple of occasions I had extended weekends of five

11 to six days each.

12 Q. Thank you. I understand. You told us before that the -- you

13 think the 121st and the 122nd Detachments merged in October 1998; is that

14 right?

15 A. Yes, approximately at that time although I cannot be precise.

16 Q. Do you know approximately when each of those were independently

17 first formed, when was the 121st formed and when was the 122nd formed?

18 And I'm talking about the detachments right now.

19 A. The 122nd Detachment, I believe, was formed when the 121st and

20 122nd were merged, or rather, 122nd Brigade was created when the two

21 detachments merged sometime in October 1998. As for the exact dates when

22 the two brigades -- I mean detachments were formed, I don't know.

23 Q. Okay. But in June 1998 when you first went to Kosovo, what unit

24 were you a part of?

25 A. It was an ad hoc unit that was formed out of four PJP companies

1 and the secretariat in Belgrade. The commander at the time was

2 Dragan Nikolic. That shift lasted for 25 days.

3 Q. When did it end?

4 A. That tour of duty was concluded towards the end of June 1998 and

5 the unit left Kosovo.

6 Q. And then I think you told us you returned in July of 1998.

7 Approximately when did you come back?

8 A. In early July.

9 Q. As part of what unit?

10 A. Again, another ad hoc unit was formed out of some other PJP

11 companies and the secretariat in Belgrade. The head of that shift was

12 Colonel Dragan Zivaljevic.

13 Q. It's been very difficult for me to understand or follow how this

14 works. That ad hoc group that you were in in June 1998, did it not have

15 a name or a number?

16 A. It is complicated. It is even difficult for me to try and

17 remember how those shifts were formed, but that's how things went. At

18 that time, being in Kosovo, the only way to go about it we believed was

19 to make those short shifts rotating the various units from Belgrade. In

20 other words, one shift was in Kosovo and the other one was, so to say,

21 resting, performing their regular tasks at the secretariat in Belgrade.

22 Q. But I'm not sure you've answered my question yet. Did you have a

23 name or a number for that ad hoc group you were in when you were in

24 Kosovo in June of 1998?

25 A. In June 1998 I believe we did not have a number that would

1 designate the title of the unit.

2 Q. And how about in July 1998 when you came back, did that ad hoc

3 group have a name or a number?

4 A. I don't think it had a number.

5 Q. And how were orders, written orders, directed to that ad hoc

6 group? There must have been some way to identify you.

7 A. I don't know exactly how written orders were being sent; however,

8 I know that we were identified as the Belgrade detachment of the PJP as

9 opposed to other units. I truly cannot recall whether we had a number at

10 that time.

11 Q. Do you recall if you had any kind of a radio call-sign or

12 code-name in July of 1998?

13 A. I remember that call-signs changed. I remember one, though,

14 Lazar used during the Klecka action; I, myself, was Lazar 2.

15 Q. And do you recall now approximately when the Klecka action was?

16 A. It began in late August. It lasted for four or five days.

17 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, I wanted to ask you a question about your

18 unit designators in 1999, and I'd like you to look at an exhibit, that's

19 the -- it's from April of 1999 and it's Exhibit Number P1989. I may have

20 a hard copy here I can hand you. I don't know if you've ever seen this

21 before, you may not have, it's from a meeting of the 4th of April 1999 of

22 senior officials in Kosovo and Metohija. And it mentions that PJP

23 detachment commanders attended, but I don't see your name here. Have you

24 seen this document before?

25 A. No.

1 Q. If you could go to -- I think we have to go to page 2 of the

2 B/C/S and scroll to the bottom, and in the English same place. Did you

3 know of a detachment commander named Radoslav Mitrovic, apparently he was

4 commander of the 37th Detachment?

5 A. Yes, I know him personally; however, at that time I had only

6 heard of him.

7 Q. And on the bottom of this page we see a reference to

8 Borislav Josipovic as detachment commander for the 23rd Detachment. Did

9 you know him?

10 A. Yes, I received orders from him after Bosko was injured --

11 wounded after the Jablanica action.

12 Q. Approximately when was that that Buha got wounded and was

13 replaced by Josipovic?

14 A. Bosko was wounded in early June; however, Josipovic did not

15 replace him at the post of the Belgrade part of the detachment, I did.

16 However, in that action -- may I go on?

17 Q. Yes.

18 A. But it was only in that action that I received orders from

19 Borislav Josipovic. Once it was over the practice stopped.

20 Q. Okay. Thank you.

21 MR. HANNIS: If we could go to the next page of both the English

22 and the B/C/S.

23 Q. We see listed here on this page Bosko Buha as detachment

24 commander for the 21st Detachment and Dragan Zivaljevic detachment

25 commander for the 22nd. Can you tell us in April of 1999 what was the

1 connection or the nexus between these three PJP detachments, the 21st,

2 the 22nd, and the 23rd, are all three of those members of some larger

3 brigade; and if so, which one?

4 A. The 21st and the 22nd Detachment, as stated here, is actually the

5 122nd Intervention Brigade; as for the 23rd Detachment, it was a separate

6 detachment comprising personnel from various secretariats in Vojvodina.

7 Q. Apart from the 21st and 22nd Detachments then in April 1999, were

8 there any other detachments that made up the 122nd Intervention Brigade

9 or was that the totality of that brigade in April 1999?

10 A. In April 1999 and generally speaking, both 1998 and 1999 the

11 122nd Detachment, or rather, intervention brigade included only the

12 workers of the Belgrade secretariat.

13 Q. And is that just the 21st and 22nd Detachments then or was there

14 some other subunit of that brigade?

15 A. I think there was also a territorial detachment. I cannot

16 remember what their number was and I don't know whether they were a part

17 of the 122nd Intervention Brigade. I think they were a separate

18 detachment since territorial detachments were separate from manoeuvring

19 detachments and I've been referring to manoeuvring detachments all along.

20 Q. Okay. I understand. During 1998, all the time that you were in

21 Kosovo after July, were you a member of this Belgrade detachment or did

22 you ever become a member of some other numbered detachment or did the

23 Belgrade detachment take on a number sometime in 1998, if you follow me?

24 A. Could you please be more precise.

25 Q. Okay. If, for example, I were trying to find you in October or

1 November 1998, how would I ask for you, say, I'm looking for Mr. Ilic,

2 colonel -- well, Major Ilic or Vladimir Ilic and he's with one of the PJP

3 groups but I don't know which one, where would I look to find you if I

4 wanted to mail you a note or something? What number would I write on it

5 or what address? Was it still the Belgrade detachment for the whole time

6 in 1998 or did you ever have another unit designator?

7 A. If you mean October and November specifically, at that time I was

8 in Belgrade at the secretariat in Belgrade performing regular tasks.

9 That's where you would have found me.

10 Q. How about August, September, October?

11 A. In August I was in Kosovo, in September I don't know whether I

12 was there the whole month. Maybe I'm uncertain about the dates, but if I

13 may assist when the agreement was signed on the reduction of the number

14 of police forces in Kosovo, a few days later together with one half of

15 that unit and Commander Bosko Buha I left for Belgrade. I don't know

16 what exact date it was, but I relate that to the agreement.

17 Q. Okay. And we know from other evidence that that agreement was

18 around the 25th of October, 1998, so we'll say late October 1998 you

19 left. Between July 1998 and the end of October 1998 was the unit that

20 you were with ever known by any other designator or name than the

21 Belgrade detachment of the PJP? Did you ever have another name or a

22 number, if you know?

23 A. As far as I know, we did not. The unit was known as the Belgrade

24 detachment.

25 Q. Okay. You told us how during -- until August or early September

1 1998 you used to wear the blue camouflage uniforms, but then you got your

2 green ones and you wore those from then onwards. And you told us that

3 the other PJP units that you participated with in 1999 wore those same

4 uniforms. But you don't know, do you, if some of the other PJP units in

5 Kosovo took even longer to receive their green uniforms, that is, that

6 they may not have gotten green uniforms until sometime after September

7 1998, right?

8 A. I don't know that. I think the uniforms were delivered

9 successively and I don't know what unit got their new uniforms when. I

10 cannot recall exactly from my unit's unit, let alone other units.

11 Q. Thank you. You described the insignia that you wore on your

12 uniforms, you talked about the coat of arms of the PJP and the flag of

13 Serbia. How were those patches attached to the uniforms? Were they sewn

14 on or did you have Velcro fasteners or what, if you recall?

15 A. I think we had fasteners, Velcro fasteners.

16 Q. Thank you. And you mentioned wearing the ribbons in 1998 and you

17 mentioned how hot it was in July and August that year. Could I show you

18 a photo, it's Exhibit P3111. You explained how it was very hot and some

19 people actually did wear bandannas. Can you see that photograph on your

20 screen?

21 A. Yes, I can.

22 Q. Do you recognise any of the people in that photograph?

23 A. Yes, I do.

24 Q. Can you tell us which one or ones, where they're standing, and

25 who they are.

1 A. I can recognise the people standing, going from the left,

2 Mile Novakovic; in the middle, I cannot make his face out clearly, but I

3 think it is policeman Salipur; and the in the row below I see

4 Goran Radosavljevic, Guri, going from the right-hand side he's the second

5 person in the green uniform.

6 Q. And you see the guy on the left wearing a headband, you don't

7 know who he is?

8 A. I don't recognise him.

9 Q. And on the back row the guy on the left doesn't appear to be

10 wearing a PJP uniform shirt, he's just wearing a T-shirt; correct?

11 A. You mean the person on the left -- the first person on the left

12 standing?

13 Q. Yes.

14 A. That is correct, there is no PJP uniform. If this is from the

15 period when we already got the green uniforms, but until that time we

16 wore those blue camouflage uniforms.

17 Q. I would tell you from other evidence we've had indications that

18 based on the one red ribbon on the left shoulder this -- that's

19 consistent with the order for, I think, the 28th or 29th of July, 1998.

20 Do you know why Salipur would have a green camouflage uniform that early?

21 A. As far as I can see, the uniform worn by Salipur is not a PJP

22 uniform.

23 Q. And the man on the front row on the left with the headband, can

24 you tell what kind of uniform he's wearing?

25 A. I cannot see his pants and their colour on the picture before me.

1 The upper part is no uniform, I think it's a civilian T-shirt and a

2 tactical vest of sorts.

3 Q. Okay. You told us that you tried to prevent people from wearing

4 non-standard uniforms, but because it was so hot it was difficult. Was

5 there any discipline for people not wearing the standard uniforms in July

6 1998?

7 A. It would be a minor or a serious violation of work duty. I don't

8 know whether anyone was processed for that since I don't think there were

9 any flagrant violations of that order and people wearing completely

10 different uniforms. However, there were occasions such as this when

11 people would take photographs after actions while resting and waiting for

12 the trucks that were supposed to take the policemen to the base. Because

13 it was so hot, people were allowed to take off items of clothing and

14 moments like those they were usually taking photographs.

15 Q. Did you personally and your unit, your Belgrade detachment, take

16 part in any anti-terrorist actions in July and August of 1998? I think

17 you've told us about one at least.

18 A. Yes, I did.

19 Q. Did you see Goran Radosavljevic in the field during that time?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Do you know what his job was in July through October of 1998?

22 A. I will try to be precise. During the anti-terrorist actions,

23 that is when I did not see him; however, I did see him several times in

24 Kosovo in informal situations. I don't know what he was doing there.

25 However, I did not see him during the anti-terrorist actions. I'm sorry,

1 I forgot what your question was.

2 Q. No, if you had seen him in the field in 1998, and I think you've

3 answered it.

4 You were asked a question about whether or not the 122nd

5 Intervention Brigade had any combat vehicles like tanks or artillery, and

6 you said it didn't have any tanks but it had armoured vehicles what you

7 mentioned. In 1998 or in 1999 were you aware of the MUP or the PJP

8 having tanks at all?

9 A. I knew that the MUP or the PJP did not have tanks.

10 Q. Did -- were there occasions where a tank and a tank team,

11 personnel, were in essence loaned to a MUP unit and travelled around with

12 them during these operations? Were you ever aware of that happening?

13 A. I didn't know that tanks were ever loaned to the police since we

14 didn't know how to operate them.

15 Q. Okay. Let me show you an exhibit that I think you were shown

16 earlier by one of the other Defence lawyers, it's Exhibit P1993. I can

17 hand you a hard copy with help from the usher. This is a meeting dated

18 the 11th of May, 1999, in Pristina at the MUP staff headquarters, and we

19 see several PJP detachment commanders or brigade company commanders that

20 attended. We don't see your name, but if you could turn to page 2 of the

21 B/C/S we'll see Colonel Buha attended this meeting and he's listed as the

22 commander of the 22nd PJP Detachment. You see that?

23 A. I see that.

24 Q. In May of 1999, what unit were you a part of?

25 A. In May 1999 I was in the Pec part of the detachment under the

1 command of Bosko Buha, but in one period of time I -- but in one period

2 of time I -- well, now was this in May, I was resubordinated with two

3 companies to the Podujevo part of the Belgrade detachment during one

4 action, that is to say under Colonel Zivaljevic.

5 Q. And what unit designator did that group have? That was just --

6 that was also part of the 22nd PJP Detachment; is that correct?

7 A. That is part of the 122nd Intervention Brigade, that is the part

8 under paragraph 2 when the deputy commander of the 122nd Brigade,

9 Lieutenant-Colonel Dragan Nikolic, attended the meeting. So it's that

10 part of the unit.

11 Q. Okay. That's where I got confused, I guess. I think

12 Judge Bonomy asked you about that earlier today. So Buha is the

13 commander of the 22nd Detachment and the 22nd Detachment is a part of the

14 122nd Brigade, is that right, in May of 1999?

15 A. That's right, as is written here, the 22nd Detachment of the PJP,

16 the part under the command of Colonel Bosko Buha is one part or the Pec

17 part, if I can call it that, of the 122nd Intervention Brigade.

18 Q. And was there a name for the Podujevo part of the 122nd?

19 A. I cannot remember whether there was a numerical designator, but

20 we identified it as the Podujevo part of the Belgrade detachment, or of

21 the 122nd Intervention Brigade, and as the Pec part of that same unit.

22 Q. Now, it lists Colonel Dragan Nikolic as the deputy commander of

23 the 122nd Intervention Brigade. Who was the overall commander of the

24 122nd on 11 May 1999?

25 A. Colonel Zivaljevic. At the same time he was the commander of

1 that part, that is to say the Pec part of that brigade, and the commander

2 of the entire brigade.

3 Q. And so he would have been Buha's boss, Buha's superior, correct?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. And the next one on your page in B/C/S is the commander of the

6 23rd PJP Detachment, Colonel Josipovic. Did -- was the 23rd any part of

7 the 122nd Intervention Brigade?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Okay. Okay. Thank you.

10 I want you to go to page 4 of the B/C/S --

11 JUDGE BONOMY: I don't know whether this is important to you,

12 Mr. Hannis, and whether the problem is translation, but if you go to page

13 75, line 17, you would, I think, be excused for thinking that Buha was

14 the commander of the 22nd Detachment, which is the Pec part; and then if

15 you go to 76, 2, you might be excused for thinking that Zivaljevic was

16 the commander of the Pec part. So if you want it to be clear, I can tell

17 you that as far as I can see at the moment it's not clear.

18 MR. HANNIS: Okay. I may have misheard.

19 Q. Mr. Ilic, you told us that Colonel Zivaljevic was the overall

20 commander of the 122nd, but I think you told us he was also the commander

21 of another part of the brigade, which part was that? Was that the

22 Podujevo part?

23 A. I will be very specific. There is a problem because in this

24 document they didn't state these details very precisely. The commander

25 of the 122nd Intervention Brigade was Colonel Zivaljevic, Dragan. The

1 deputy commander of the 122nd Intervention Brigade was Major or

2 Lieutenant-Colonel Bosko Buha. I was one of the assistant commanders.

3 Due to the breadth of the territory that we held in 1999, this detachment

4 was subdivided into two parts, or rather, this brigade was subdivided

5 into two parts: The Pec part and the Podujevo part. I do not know

6 whether in this subdivision every one of these two parts of the

7 detachment got a particular numerical designator. We would recognise

8 each other as the Podujevo and the Pec parts respectively. At the same

9 time the Podujevo part was taken over by the commander of the entire

10 brigade, Colonel Zivaljevic that is; and the Pec part was taken over by

11 his deputy, Bosko Buha, and he was in command there.

12 Q. Okay. But there was one part of that answer that confused

13 something for me. You're translated as having said that Buha was deputy

14 commander of the brigade, and here it lists Nikolic as the deputy

15 commander of the brigade. Can you explain that for me? I see Buha is

16 listed as a full colonel and Nikolic is listed as a lieutenant-colonel,

17 but I don't know if that makes a difference or not. Can you help us?

18 A. I'll try. In the Podujevo part of that unit where

19 Colonel Zivaljevic was, he appointed as his deputy Lieutenant-Colonel

20 Dragan Nikolic. This appointment does not mean that he gets a decision

21 of appointment. Decisions of appointment were not distributed in special

22 police units. He was just told so, it was stated to him orally, whereas

23 in the Pec part Bosko Buha appointed orally me as his own deputy. Now,

24 there really is quite a confusion there. I understand you. We are

25 either assistant commanders or deputy commanders, but I think that it's

1 easiest to understand it in the following way. At the moment when these

2 two detachments split up, in the Pec part Commander Zivaljevic, deputy

3 Nikolic, or rather, in the Podujevo part, Commander Zivaljevic, deputy

4 Nikolic; and in the Pec part, Bosko Buha and deputy Vladimir Ilic, or

5 rather, I.

6 Q. But between Nikolic and Buha, who was superior? Is Nikolic

7 deputy of the whole brigade or is he only deputy of the Podujevo part?

8 A. No. He is deputy only for the Podujevo part, and I am deputy

9 only for the Pec part, and Bosko is only the commander of the Pec part.

10 If it would happen that, say, the brigade would get together, then we'd

11 go back to the old system. The commander of the entire brigade is

12 Zivaljevic again, the deputy is Bosko Buha, and we are assistant

13 commanders.

14 Q. Thank you. Let's move onto page 4 in the B/C/S and it's page 5

15 in the English part I want. Mr. Ilic, you'll see there under item number

16 8 we have the commander of the 35th PJP Detachment, Colonel Prljevic

17 speaking. And the fourth bullet point under him it says: "In the final

18 operations around Cicavica and Bajgora, we worked without technical

19 equipment and support; we had no problems, therefore I can return Srdjan

20 Grekulovic's two tanks, as we do not need them ..."

21 And we see earlier in this document that Srdjan Grekulovic is the

22 commander of the 36th PJP Detachment. What tanks would those be that the

23 35th PJP Detachment commander has which he can return to

24 Colonel Grekulovic, do you know anything about that?

25 A. As far as I know, they didn't have tanks. I think it's

1 impossible.

2 Q. Okay. Further down under him, I think -- yeah, it's the big

3 bullet point, the next-to-the-last one under his name. He's talking

4 about: "In final operations, particularly when my unit was being

5 introduced on Jezerce, I had some problems ..."

6 And the next one says: "We had to work on some points again with

7 Sigma and Jastreb ..."

8 Do you know what those are, aren't those some kind of aircraft?

9 A. I can't find that part, but I know what it is. Sigma is the

10 call-sign for the 23rd Detachment and Jastreb, those are the sniper

11 shooters.

12 Q. Okay. Thank you. And then if we could go -- if you could go to

13 page 5 in the B/C/S, and you'll see it's Colonel Mitrovic from the 37th

14 PJP Detachment speaking. And we'll have to go to the top of page 6 in

15 the English, please. I think you told us you knew Colonel Mitrovic, he

16 was head of the 37th Detachment. I think we had evidence that's from

17 Nis; is that correct?

18 A. Yes, I personally met him after 2001 when he was transferred to

19 work in the gendarmerie. During the course of the war I had heard of

20 him.

21 Q. Okay.

22 A. We did not know each other personally.

23 Q. If you could go down to the fifth bullet point under his name,

24 he's talking about relations between the SUP and the OUP and actions

25 around Budakovo and Jezerce. You see that?

1 A. I see that.

2 Q. And the very next one says: "The leadership of Legija in the

3 final operations was felt, particularly when some equipment was used,

4 which helped us a lot."

5 Do you know what he's referring to there?

6 A. I don't know exactly what it was that he meant there. If this is

7 supposed to be a reference to Legija, the commander of the JSO, well, I

8 don't know.

9 Q. Were you aware of the JSO being involved in any actions in Kosovo

10 in 1998 or in 1999?

11 A. In 1998 in June when I was in Decani, we acted in coordination

12 with the JSO in the area of Decani, in an anti-terrorist action in Decani

13 and in the area of Decani.

14 Q. What about in 1999, do you know about them being involved in any

15 anti-terrorist or KLA actions in Kosovo?

16 A. I think they took part in 1999 as well, but I cannot remember

17 exactly in which actions.

18 Q. Okay. If you could go to page 6 in your B/C/S copy, and it's on

19 page 8 of the English. And I will tell you that this is

20 General Stevanovic speaking, and actually I'll need to go to near the

21 bottom of the page for you. All the way to the bottom, thank you. It's

22 point number 5 and he's talking about tasks. The first bullet point

23 there says: "Police units are subordinate to the chief of the SUP and

24 PJP detachment and police heads must attend every SUP collegium."

25 Now, did you as deputy to Buha ever attend a SUP collegium in

1 1999?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Do you know whether Buha attended any of those SUP collegium

4 meetings?

5 A. Yes, I know.

6 Q. Did he?

7 A. Yes, he did.

8 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, further on at the very bottom of the page

9 the last two points, one says the PJP Detachment must be staffed with

10 officers in exact accordance with establishment. And then it says: "It

11 particularly pertains to the 122nd Intervention Brigade which ought to

12 submit its establishment list with a completely formed PJP detachment by

13 30 May 1999; nobody is allowed to make changes to this without this

14 detachment commander's approval. At the same time the 121st and 72nd

15 OPJP, PJP detachments, are to be set apart."

16 Can you explain for us what that's about. Do you know what

17 they're talking -- what Stevanovic is talking about there?

18 A. I can assume --

19 Q. Well, if it's an assumption based on some reason or something you

20 personally knew about at the time, then go ahead; if you're just

21 guessing, please don't guess, but if you've got a reasoned basis for it,

22 please continue.

23 MR. IVETIC: If it's speculation I would object, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: We can only determine that when we hear what the

25 witness has to tell us and the basis of his information.

1 Please continue, Mr. Ilic.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] During the course of 1998 and 1999

3 we had frequent shifts of policemen who were sent to Belgrade -- from

4 Belgrade to us. Some were on furlough and others were in Kosovo.

5 Towards the end the situation was that officers from Belgrade would send

6 policemen to the detachment who were not from the PJP because of the

7 security situation in Belgrade. They kept there in order to provide

8 security at places of high risk, like sports games, et cetera, and we

9 were provided with policemen who were not on our lists. What I'm saying

10 I'm saying on the basis of my recollection, and I cannot remember exactly

11 the names of the policemen involved but I think that that problem was the

12 problem on account of which General Stevanovic said this, what is written

13 here, that is to say that policemen cannot be sent who are not within the

14 detachment originally and without the approval of the detachment

15 commander.

16 Q. [Microphone not activated]

17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Hannis, please.

18 MR. HANNIS:

19 Q. If I understand correctly, Mr. Ilic, does that mean that the

20 policemen who were not PJP were being sent to your detachment, they had

21 not been qualified or approved; is that what was happening?

22 A. Yes. As far as I can remember, that was no longer taken into

23 consideration. Those in charge in Belgrade were simply trying to have

24 the right numerical requirements met.

25 Q. I understand. How far back did that problem go, do you know when

1 it first started?

2 A. I don't know exactly, but for instance as the war was becoming

3 ever more imminent that happened ever more frequently, say from the month

4 of April.

5 Q. Okay. You told us about officers who were assistants to the

6 commander for legal conduct and operation who were sent from the ministry

7 in Belgrade to help dealing with the problems of discipline in connection

8 with violations. Who was the officer sent from Belgrade that dealt with

9 your unit, do you recall his name?

10 A. I recall the deputy head of the department for the control of

11 legality in work, Galovic is his last name, I cannot remember his first

12 name; he's retired now. And in addition to himself he had a few of his

13 own officers but I cannot remember their names because they also came in

14 shifts.

15 Q. Okay. Thank you. You mentioned that there were between 50 and

16 70 policemen from your detachment - or I think later on you explained it

17 was from the whole brigade - who faced disciplinary proceedings as well

18 as criminal proceedings. How do you know about that number, 50 to 70?

19 Did you have a report about it or some document about it or did people

20 talk about it? How do you know that was the number?

21 A. Colonel Zivaljevic told me about that, but the exact figure is in

22 the department for the control of lawfulness in work in -- of the former

23 secretariat of the interior in Belgrade. I think that all these records

24 still exist.

25 Q. Okay. You mentioned that those were crimes from the domain of

1 property-related crime, mainly theft, also smuggling of cattle. How many

2 of those 50 to 70 were for something more serious than a disciplinary

3 matter or a property-related crime? Were there any for crimes against

4 life and limb out of those 50 to 70?

5 A. For us theft was a serious matter too because that did not befit

6 a policeman. That is why disciplinary and criminal reports were filed;

7 however, I do not think that we had any cases pertaining to maltreatment.

8 As far as I know, we did not have such cases.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: You referred to smuggling cattle, which is a

10 concept I'm not understanding I don't think. Do you mean rustling or

11 something else?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's the crime of smuggling cattle

13 from Kosovo to Serbia. I don't know what the exact wording is for that

14 particular crime, but at any rate it is an incrimination, it is a crime

15 and criminal reports were filed against them. I know that for sure and

16 they were dealt with before a disciplinary court and before a regular

17 court, that is to say a criminal court.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: That doesn't really help me. Are you saying that

19 policemen were taking their own cattle from Kosovo to Serbia and they

20 weren't allowed to or were they stealing cattle?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it wasn't their cattle. It was

22 the cattle that they found in Kosovo, cattle roaming about.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: So what's smuggling got to do with it? Smuggling

24 means you're breaking the rules about crossing the border. Were you not

25 allowed to take cattle from Kosovo to other parts of Serbia?

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They could not do that because it

2 wasn't their cattle. They were not the owners of that cattle.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Stealing cattle, then. Mr. Hannis.

4 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

5 Your Honour, there was one brief procedural matter I wanted to

6 raise about a witness coming later in the week. I wonder if we could

7 break for the day because I have about 30 minutes more to go.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, we can break at this stage.

9 Mr. Ilic, your evidence is not quite complete and you will have

10 to come back tomorrow to finish it because we have to finish our

11 proceedings for the day at this stage. Between now and resuming your

12 evidence, it's vital that you have no discussion, no communication, with

13 anyone else about any aspect of your evidence or any of the evidence in

14 this case. You can talk about other subjects with whoever you like, but

15 you must not discuss any aspect of the evidence in this case.

16 Now could you please leave the courtroom with the usher and

17 return to resume evidence at 9.00 tomorrow morning in this courtroom.

18 [The witness stands down]

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis.

20 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour. This relates to the third

21 and last witness noticed for this week, Mr. Paponjak. I'm told that we

22 just -- we just received his statement. I had meant to bring this up

23 earlier. We had not yet received his statement. We had a concern about

24 the 48-hour rule. We also had a concern about the vast number of

25 exhibits that were listed with him in the attachment, it's about four or

1 five pages' worth. I don't have the exact count. Earlier in the day the

2 notice -- the information I had was that about 45 of those were

3 untranslated. The explanation we saw in the related motion to add

4 exhibits to the 65 ter list were that the witness had brought these

5 documents with him, but I note that he testified in the Milosevic case

6 and it's my understanding from Ms. Kravetz, who will be handling this

7 witness, that the overwhelming majority of those documents were, indeed,

8 exhibits in the Milosevic case in which he testified in 2005. So we have

9 a concern about that sort of late notice and it puts Ms. Kravetz in a

10 difficult spot to be able to organize all those, and that's what I wanted

11 to bring to your attention. We now have the statement, so that's

12 resolved. I didn't know if it was going to be a new statement or if it

13 was going to be the five days of transcript from Milosevic, but I see we

14 now have a specific statement. But we do have that ongoing concern about

15 the untranslated documents and which of those may be referred to in the

16 statement. That's what it's about, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: And has Mr. Ivetic not told you which ones will be

18 referred to?

19 MR. HANNIS: I don't know, Your Honour, because I just now saw

20 the statement on the screen. I don't know.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: I mean --

22 MR. HANNIS: I think it was just released.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: We intervene when necessary and don't intervene

24 when unnecessary, Mr. Hannis. So what is it you're saying we should be

25 doing, apart from worrying?

1 MR. HANNIS: Well, Your Honour, I don't know if they're going to

2 use the five pages worth of exhibits, but our complaint is when it's that

3 substantial amount of material -- and the justification for adding it to

4 the 65 ter list was that this witness just brought them. My position is

5 these are materials they've had for years because the exact same

6 documents were used as exhibits in the Milosevic case.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Are you saying there's an outstanding application

8 in relation to this witness to amend this Rule 65 ter list?

9 MR. HANNIS: Yes.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Okay. And have you responded to it?

11 MR. HANNIS: No, we haven't because we've been trying to sort out

12 during the day which of those indeed are new and which may have been

13 available for some time. And as I said, when I first raised the issue to

14 the court officer this morning we didn't have a statement and so I was

15 concerned about that as well.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: It sounds as though your position needs to be

17 firmed up, Mr. Hannis, before we can do anything about it. No doubt that

18 can be done for tomorrow morning by Ms. Kravetz.

19 MR. HANNIS: We will, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: And hopefully she'll have a discussion with

21 Mr. Ivetic to clarify anything that's not clear, and then if there's

22 something that we need to adjudicate upon you can raise it with us

23 tomorrow.

24 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour, I will.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you very much.

1 So we shall adjourn now and resume at 9.00 tomorrow.

2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.01 p.m.,

3 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 18th day of

4 March, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.

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