Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 24797

1 Thursday, 3 April 2008

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Good morning, everyone. We shall continue with

6 the evidence of Mr. Pantic.

7 [The witness entered court]


9 [Witness answered through interpreter]

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Good morning, Mr. Pantic.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Judge, sir.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Cross-examination by Mr. Oren will continue in a

13 moment. Please bear in mind that the solemn declaration to speak the

14 truth which you made at the beginning of your evidence continues to apply

15 to your evidence today.

16 Mr. Oren.

17 MR. OREN: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Cross-examination by Mr. Oren: [Continued]

19 Q. Good morning, Mr. Pantic.

20 A. Good morning.

21 Q. Now, according to paragraph 59 of your statement, the JSO was

22 stationed in Dubrava prison until October 1998. For how long did they

23 stay there? Do you know that?

24 A. They stayed there for six months.

25 Q. Did you or your OUP have any cooperation with the JSO?

Page 24798

1 A. In 1998 they were in the open part of the prison. That is to say

2 they were put up at the motel. They were not in the confined area in

3 case something was needed in terms of logistics, if there was a breakdown

4 in the waterworks or something like that. If there was the necessity of

5 having some kind of an intervention. I can mention, for example, in 1998

6 when one of the pipes leading to Mokra Gora, the mountain up there, broke

7 down. Then, for example, I intervened in order to have this repaired. I

8 called an Albanian and asked him to have this repaired. We didn't have

9 any other contacts.

10 Q. But did you meet --

11 JUDGE BONOMY: I think just before you continue, I think the

12 answer on page 2, line 1, was that they were not in the open part of the

13 prison.

14 Please continue, Mr. Oren.

15 MR. OREN: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, maybe that's wrong.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do apologise. They were in the

18 open part of the prison. They were not --

19 JUDGE BONOMY: No need to apologise. It was my mistake. Thank

20 you, Mr. Oren.

21 MR. OREN: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. During this time did you meet Milorad Ulemek, also known as

23 Legija?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you have lunch with him?

Page 24799

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What was the purpose of that meeting with Legija?

3 A. My son who was then -- I can't remember now. In 1998 he was four

4 years old. He had some kind of an allergy or something. The prison

5 doctor was a specialist for that kind of thing and that's why I was

6 there. I took my son there, and I stayed for lunch with them.

7 Q. What did you discuss during lunch with Legija?

8 A. Well, it wasn't only Legija. People from the state security were

9 there. I used to work at the state security. There were some people

10 there who I knew and I didn't even communicate with Legija. He sat at

11 the table and he left. He had some kind of a dog, and he [Realtime

12 transcript read in error "I"] went out to walk the dog. However, my

13 colleagues were there, people I used to work with.

14 Q. And the JSO?

15 MR. LUKIC: Sorry because of the transcript. It says I went out

16 to walk the dog.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note that is indeed what the

18 interpretation said.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: That is indeed what was said. Please continue,

20 Mr. Oren.

21 MR. OREN: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. And they stayed in the Dubrava prison also in 1999, didn't they?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Aren't you aware of any allegations about crimes committed by JSO

25 members regarding the Dubrava prison in 1999, in May 1999?

Page 24800

1 A. No. In 1999 they were not staying in the territory of the

2 municipality of Istok as far as I know. In 1998 they left the area of

3 the municipality of Istok. That is to say after they had stayed at the

4 motel. That is to say the open part of the Dubrava prison.

5 Q. Did other members of state security stay in the Dubrava prison in

6 1999?

7 A. No. Not the state security, not the public security, not the

8 military security. There was no one there in 1999. I state that with

9 full responsibility in the area of the Dubrava prison. If you are

10 referring to a longer stay or something like that.

11 Q. Do you know of any short stays by the JSO or state security in

12 Dubrava?

13 A. No.

14 Q. I'd then like to call P1996 up in e-court, and it's page 6 of the

15 English and page 5 of the B/C/S version.

16 On that page -- now, this is -- for your information, it's

17 minutes from a MUP staff meeting May, 7th May 1999, and in the page in

18 front of you, you see that chief of the SUP in Pec, colonel Borislav

19 Vlahovic is referred to. Now, in the English version it goes to item

20 number 13, close at the end on page 6, and it's the penultimate item in

21 the B/C/S version. It states that:

22 "Around 70 terrorists have been transferred from Pec to Dubrava

23 near Istok and state security members are working with them ..."

24 Do you know which state security members that are being referred

25 to here?

Page 24801

1 A. I know that within the prison there were one or two members of

2 the DB, the state security who were seconded there, if I can put it that

3 way, to work in the prison. I don't know about anyone else.

4 Q. But could you exclude the possibility that the state security

5 members that are being referred to here are members of the JSO?

6 A. No. No. They certainly weren't members of the JSO. These were

7 two colleagues that I used to work with. They were seconded from the DB

8 in Pec. It was their job to be there attached to the Dubrava prison.

9 Q. So you're saying these members that are being referred to are

10 only two persons; is that correct?

11 A. As far as I know, yes.

12 Q. But could you exclude the possibility that there were other

13 members as well that were being referred to here than these two persons?

14 A. I cannot rule out that possibility, but I'm telling you I know

15 that these two men had been seconded there. During one period of time I

16 was supposed to be working there as well where the two of them were

17 working.

18 Q. How then can you exclude the possibility of JSO being present in

19 Dubrava prison in May 1999?

20 A. Well, I certainly would have known if there had been anyone in

21 that territory of mine, in that area of mine, particularly at the prison.

22 You can't really hide that.

23 Q. Well, wasn't your chief of the Istok OUP only on paper on this

24 time?

25 A. Regardless of that, I spent many years in both services, so I had

Page 24802

1 friends, acquaintances, contacts. So I certainly would have been aware

2 of that.

3 Q. Now, in paragraph 56 of your statement, you say that you took

4 part in the creation of documents that were produced in connection with

5 the so-called Kosovo and Metohija dossier. Could you explain more

6 specifically how you took part in this, which tasks you performed?

7 A. In February 2002, I had this litigation and I won, and I reported

8 for work in Kragujevac to chief Paponjak, because he told me then that

9 all the documentation that was brought in from Istok was supposed to be

10 arranged and categorised because there was an interest expressed by The

11 Hague Tribunal to have dossiers made out of these documents that we

12 compiled there during the course of the war in 1999.

13 Q. But did you draft or compile any of these documents that you

14 refer to in your statement?

15 A. No. These are all documents that I brought from the area of the

16 municipality of Istok on the 14th of June, 1999. I worked there until

17 March when I was sent to do other work in Bujanovac in 2002.

18 Q. Okay. If you didn't draft or compile any of these documents I

19 think I'll move on to just my last question. I see that I used my 15

20 minutes already.

21 Now, in paragraph 58 of your statement, you say that you read the

22 statement of Sadik Sadiju and you state that there were no police

23 officers from your OUP in the Zablace village on 6 May 1999. However,

24 can you exclude the possibility is that other members of the MUP were

25 present in that village on 6 May 1999?

Page 24803

1 A. I don't know about that. I cannot say anything to you because I

2 don't know.

3 Q. Mr. Pantic, thank you for answering my questions.

4 MR. OREN: Your Honours, I don't have any further questions for

5 this witness.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Oren.

7 Questioned by the Court:

8 JUDGE BONOMY: A moment ago you said that in relation to these

9 documents referred to in paragraph 56 of your statement all you did was

10 lift them and remove them when you left at the end of the war, but your

11 statement says that you took part in the creation of the resulting

12 documents for the KiM dossier. You've now told us you didn't do any work

13 in that regard. What is the -- what is the true position?

14 A. Maybe you didn't understand me right. These documents that are

15 referred to here were all brought in on the 14th of June, 1999. They

16 were all created down there. When something happened, these documents

17 were created. They were not created in Kragujevac. They were created on

18 the spot the same day.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Pantic, that's not possible because they

20 relate in part to dates after you left Kosovo. Just look at your

21 statement and look at the dates to which these documents refer.

22 A. If you mean the crimes that we were not aware of and that we

23 compiled documents on later, this was done by another group. I then

24 worked on collecting documents and information on kidnapped and missing

25 persons. As for all other incidents there was another group.

Page 24804

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Don't move off the subject, please. Just look at

2 your statement and look at paragraph 56 and look at the very first

3 document to which you refer, 6D1534.

4 Now, it's to do with armed clashes between the 1st of January,

5 1998, and the 1st of June, 2001. What had you to do with that document?

6 A. As for the documents I brought from the area of the municipality

7 of Istok, that is to say in this period that you have just referred to, I

8 handed them over to the chief of SUP, Radovan Paponjak. As for the other

9 documents that are referred to here up to 2001, it was this other group

10 that worked on that. There was a team that worked on collecting these

11 documents. For the most part this was done by members of the crime

12 police.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: So your evidence is that you brought the original

14 documents relating to these events and Paponjak then took control of

15 compiling the statistical results from these documents.

16 A. Yes.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Look now, please, at paragraph 22 of your

18 statement. A very minor matter, I think. The very first date referred

19 to in the English translation is the 15th of May, 1999. Is that the

20 correct date?

21 A. This information that was received then concerning the killings

22 and abductions of Serbs who had stayed behind, who were down there in the

23 village of Osojani, and those who stayed on after the military and police

24 forces moved --

25 Q. Just simply the date. Is it the 15th of May or should it be the

Page 24805

1 15th of June?

2 A. I think it should say the 15th of June rather than 15th of May,

3 because I personally worked on collecting information on the persons who

4 had stayed behind and who got killed.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic, re-examination.

6 MR. LUKIC: Very short, Your Honour. Thank you for correction in

7 paragraph 22 of the statement of this witness. We just checked. It is

8 15th of June.

9 Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:

10 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning.

11 A. Good morning.

12 Q. We're getting close to the end. Very often here references are

13 made to investigations. As you worked as a chief of OUP, did you come

14 across the following terms: Investigation and pre-trial proceedings?

15 Could you just tell us what is what?

16 A. This means collecting information about the perpetrators of

17 crimes, and the investigation about that is carried out by the office of

18 the prosecutor and the court.

19 Q. Can the court take part in the pre-indictment proceedings as

20 well?

21 A. They can give us additional instructions to collect information

22 about the commission of a particular crime.

23 Q. Thank you. You were asked whether -- on page 65, 16, yesterday

24 whether the commission could establish whether there were camps in the

25 territory of your municipality. In how many locations was it claimed

Page 24806

1 that there were some camps? Did this have to do with particular points?

2 A. As far as I know, it only had to do with Istok itself, and that

3 is why the commission was established.

4 Q. On page 6621, it was stated yesterday that your policemen

5 arbitrarily entered shops. Did you have instructions to collect goods,

6 material goods, from looted shops?

7 A. Yes. A dispatch came from the ministry stating that such goods

8 should be collected and stored in particular localities.

9 Q. The policemen find a looted store?

10 A. They find that. They report it to their officer, and then the

11 officer sets up a team and they go out together with a market inspector

12 and a financial inspector and an inventory is made of the goods and also

13 the name of the owner is stated and then the goods are stored in a

14 particular place.

15 Q. Yesterday you mentioned that place. Where was that?

16 A. The department store in Istok. It was empty, so it was at the

17 Istok department store.

18 The vehicles that did not have licence plates that we came

19 across, we stored them at the warehouses of the agricultural cooperative

20 in Istok.

21 Q. Did you keep any records about these goods?

22 A. About the goods, about each and every thing, medicine, any kind

23 of goods. Inventories were made and after that these were handed over to

24 the Municipal Staff for their use.

25 As for vehicles, all the ones that we found, there are records on

Page 24807

1 each and every vehicle and who was in charge. Sometimes we would loan

2 these vehicles to members of the military or to the local organs. All of

3 that have was recorded and all of them were given with receipts.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: You're saying that you actually went into shops

5 which had already been looted and took more goods from them. Is that --

6 is that the position? Have I understood that correctly?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If a policeman would report that a

8 store had been broken into and if the owner was not in the store, in the

9 building, then we would take away the goods and store them at a

10 particular area and then hand that over to the Municipal Staff later.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Normally how were these premises broken into?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Usually during the night.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: But by what means?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With crowbars, or they would kick

15 their way in.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: And you didn't have a procedure of re-securing the

17 premises once you had found that it had been broken into? You just left

18 it lying open and took the goods away. Is that the position?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We re-secured the premises and

20 sealed them after the on-site is carried out, once a police team comes in

21 and takes photographers and so on. Then if there is no other possibility

22 of securing the premises in another way, then the goods would be stored

23 at the department store in Istok.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic.

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

Page 24808

1 Q. Mr. Pantic, sometimes one needs to make an extra effort to

2 understand what a state of war is like. How many policemen did you have

3 in Istok who could do that kind of thing like re-securing premises that

4 had been broken into?

5 A. I had a total of 30 policemen and 3 crime policemen and 1 crime

6 technician throughout the state of war, and also there had to be a duty

7 service, and there had to be operative work, and also there had to be

8 sector work and work on the beat, although it was difficult to carry out

9 sector work because we could not send people out on the ground.

10 Q. Realistically, were there possibilities in your assessment to

11 have stores secured by your policemen and to have them since you had

12 these 30 men?

13 A. I told you we had only 30 men, and we often could not re-secure

14 the premises after a crime had been committed. We would record whose

15 shop this was and what was there, and then we'd transfer the goods to

16 premises that we could secure.

17 Q. Is it the duty of the police --

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Sorry. Is this on the same subject?

19 MR. LUKIC: Yes.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Please continue then.

21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Is it the task of the police to secure long-term burglarised

23 businesses?

24 A. I didn't understand you.

25 Q. Is it the job of the police to guard businesses that have been

Page 24809

1 burglarised for a longer time?

2 A. Well, the very fact of a burglary means that we have to invite an

3 on-site investigation team, but if there were no police available, it was

4 not possible to guard the premises. That's why the rule was in the

5 wartime to inventorise and remove the goods and to hand it over to the

6 municipal authorities.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Please continue, Mr. Lukic.

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Earlier today concerning the presence of RDB in Dubrava prison,

10 you explained who was there as far as the RDB was concerned --

11 MR. LUKIC: Your microphone was on.

12 Q. [Interpretation] Who was there at the prison? Which inmates and

13 what did these people from the RDB do?

14 A. I suppose they were interviewing them, because terrorism was

15 within the purview of the members of the state security sector. They had

16 to interview suspects. It was regular procedure.

17 Q. Concerning that commission that inquired into the possible

18 presence of camps in Istok and the findings signed by Djakovic, I should

19 like to ask you -- you told us that you attended your grandfather's

20 funeral. When did you come back?

21 A. Around 1600 hours. The funeral was at 2.00 p.m. Just after the

22 funeral I returned.

23 Q. You said that you were interviewed around 6.00 p.m.

24 A. No. They didn't interview me around 6.00. This talk that I had

25 with Djakovic and the others lasted no more than 30 minutes, but I

Page 24810

1 insisted that it all be put on paper, and later it was given to

2 Blagoje Pesic, but the panel did not spend much time with me, no more

3 than half an hour.

4 Q. When did you finish that conversation with Pesic?

5 A. Around 2200 hours. He was in a hurry, too, because it was not a

6 good idea to go by night to Pristina, and the situation was unsafe.

7 Q. Thank you for having come to testify.

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We have no further questions.

9 [Trial Chamber confers]

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Pantic, that completes your evidence. Thank

11 you for coming here to give evidence. You may now leave the courtroom

12 with the usher.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 [The witness withdrew]

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Fila, you've had a confidential communication

16 with the legal staff here, and I take it you've made other counsel aware

17 of the situation. The matter should certainly be raised with the

18 Prosecution if it has not already been raised with them so that we can

19 get a response from them hopefully more or less immediately, and we will

20 happily deal with this as a matter of extreme urgency.

21 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] You mean the submission related to the

22 right of the accused to lie. Is that the one? Mr. Petrovic must have

23 submitted it.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: I see. So you're not aware of the terms of this

25 communication?

Page 24811

1 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Well, I probably know about it in

2 principle, but I have to ask the details of Mr. Petrovic during the

3 break.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Let's go into private session.

5 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] No need. I know. I know. I'll do as

6 you say. But that submission arrived two minutes ago.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: And the Prosecution should be notified of this. I

8 think it would be best if you were to make a formal application

9 immediately, and on your question of whether additional material should

10 be obtained from the government, obviously you're willing to try so you

11 should try, but let's see what the -- let's see what the result is.

12 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] All right.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: But if you do this more or less immediately, we

14 will attend to it immediately, and I anticipate Mr. Hannis would be

15 willing to cooperate with that, but he obviously --

16 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Will do during the break.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: [Previous translation continues] ... what we're

18 talking about. Okay.

19 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I had a hard time remembering because

20 it was written five minutes ago.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Now I know why you wanted six weeks for the final

22 brief.

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic, are you now on the floor?

25 MR. IVETIC: Yes, I am, Your Honour. And we would call

Page 24812

1 Mr. Dragan Zivaljevic.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

3 [The witness entered court]


5 [Witness answered through interpreter]

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Good morning, Mr. Zivaljevic.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Please make the solemn declaration to speak the

9 truth by reading aloud the document which will now be shown to you.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

11 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Please be seated. You will now be

13 examined by Mr. Ivetic on behalf of Mr. Lukic.

14 Mr. Ivetic.

15 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Examination by Mr. Ivetic:

17 Q. Good morning, Mr. Zivaljevic.

18 A. [No interpretation]

19 Q. Mr. Zivaljevic, did you -- did you have occasion to give a

20 written statement to the Defence team for Mr. Sreten Lukic?

21 A. Yes, and I gave a written statement.

22 Q. May I have the assistance of the usher. I have a hard copy of

23 6D1606 which we can also call up on e-court. And as we wait for the same

24 to appear on e-court, sir, and for the hard copy to reach you, I'll first

25 ask you if you can recognise this document as being this written

Page 24813

1 statement that you gave to the Defence team for Mr. Sreten Lukic.

2 A. Yes. Yes, that's the written statement that I gave.

3 Q. Okay. Sorry. I was just waiting for the transcript and the

4 translation.

5 And did you review the same prior to today to see if there were

6 any corrections that needed to be made to it?

7 A. Yes, I have read it, reviewed it, and I should like to make one

8 little correction.

9 Q. All right. If we can turn to -- do you recall the paragraph that

10 you immediate to make a correction to or ...

11 A. It is an a paragraph describing how we ran onto a mine from

12 Bradas to Podujevo where Minko Trankovic ran over a mine in his vehicle,

13 I believe. Two policemen got killed and he was seriously wounded. I was

14 wrong only about the time when it happened. I was a couple of days off

15 the mark.

16 Q. If we could turn to page 7 of the B/C/S and English page 8. This

17 is in paragraph 32, I believe, sir. If you could look at that. Is that

18 the paragraph that we're talking about for which you have this

19 correction?

20 A. Yes. Yes, that's correct. That's the paragraph. 32, it needs

21 to be corrected. Paragraph 29 describes when this vehicle ran over a

22 mine.

23 Q. And insofar as paragraph 29 describes this incident, would it be

24 fair to say that we can then delete the reference to Mr. Trajkovic in

25 this paragraph, paragraph 32?

Page 24814

1 A. That's correct. I suggest that it should be deleted because I

2 have made the correction, and I withdraw the other part of the statement.

3 The correction goes into 29, and with the correction we have now the

4 correct description, correct in terms of location and time.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: What is the correction, Mr. Ivetic?

6 MR. IVETIC: The -- in paragraph 32 --

7 JUDGE BONOMY: No, what's the correction that's been added to

8 paragraph 29?

9 MR. IVETIC: Nothing's being added to 29. 29 depicts the -- the

10 incident and gives the time period because it's -- it's in the --

11 following paragraph 28 in the time period of March. So the reference to

12 Mr. Trajkovic being in 32 should be deleted as the reference in 29 is

13 the -- is the --

14 JUDGE BONOMY: I am not following this. The witness said that he

15 had made a mistake about a date. He was a couple of days out. But in

16 fact he's made a mistake about the event, is it, in which Trajkovic was

17 injured.

18 MR. IVETIC: I believe the date that -- it did not occur during

19 the action that is depicted in 32, which would be with respect to the

20 date, but we can --

21 JUDGE BONOMY: So it happened in a different action.

22 MR. IVETIC: It may not have -- it happened during a different

23 time period. Looking at this, it's talking about a time period at the

24 beginning of the NATO bombings in paragraphs 28 and 29.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Okay. So can you clarify with the witness in

Page 24815

1 which context Trajkovic was actually injured?

2 MR. IVETIC: Sure, no problem.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: I don't understand what happened to him and who

4 else was there at the time at the moment.

5 MR. IVETIC: No problem, Your Honour.

6 Q. Mr. Zivaljevic, could you please assist us by giving us some

7 further details regarding the incident in which Mr. Trajkovic was -- was

8 injured, to the best of your knowledge?

9 A. All right. On an access road overlooking Podujevo town a vehicle

10 was moving, and inside it was Zivko Trajkovic with another policeman who

11 got killed then, it was Aleksic Radovan -- Radovan Aleksic, sorry. The

12 vehicle ran over a mine that was dug into the ground on that part of the

13 road and it was blown up. So on that stretch of the road near Bradas

14 village Zivko Trajkovic was seriously wounded, and that anti-tank mine

15 killed Radovan Aleksic and wounded two policemen. That is the exact

16 description of this incident.

17 There is an error, however, in passage 32 in that we described

18 the same incident but linked it to our return from a certain action. So

19 32 is not correct.

20 There was a small action in Palatna village, and we thought

21 originally Trajkovic was coming back from that action when he ran over

22 that mine, and that's the only thing we got wrong.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: So what alteration do you propose then,

24 Mr. Ivetic, that we should make to the statement?

25 MR. IVETIC: Pardon me. In paragraph 32, I would delete the

Page 24816

1 sentence relating to Mr. Trajkovic.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well.


4 Q. Now, Mr. Zivaljevic, apart from the aforementioned correction,

5 does the rest of the text of your statement accurately reflect your

6 knowledge and information about the matters referenced therein?

7 A. There are no other corrections to make.

8 Q. And now today while you are under oath, if I were to ask you

9 about the same topics that are in your statement would you give the same

10 information and answers as contained in your written statement?

11 A. Yes, I would give the same answers to the same questions.

12 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I would ask for the written statement

13 denoted as Exhibit 6D1606 to be admitted subject to the one correction.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.


16 Q. Now -- now, Mr. Zivaljevic, some additional areas I would like to

17 question you about and explore in greater detail. First of all, did you

18 ever have occasion to see any order or decision map signed by the MUP

19 staff in Pristina for any anti-terrorist action?

20 A. No, never.

21 Q. Did you ever receive any order or become aware of the existence

22 of any plan on the part of the MUP of the Republic of Serbia for ethnic

23 Albanians in Kosovo and Metohija to be killed, robbed, or forcibly

24 deported from that territory?

25 A. No, never.

Page 24817

1 Q. And, sir, as -- as a PJP commander or as a policeman, did you

2 ever have occasion to complete any kind of military academy or school?

3 A. No, I did not graduate from a military academy, and I'm pretty

4 ignorant about military service.

5 Q. In that regard did you have occasion to complete any school or

6 training of any kind relating to commanding of artillery units?

7 A. No, never.

8 Q. Did you ever have occasion to draft or otherwise prepare any

9 order or decision map for undertaking any anti-terrorist actions in which

10 your forces participated?

11 A. I'm not qualified for this. I'm a crime [as interpreted]

12 policeman, and I don't know much about this sort of thing.

13 Q. Did --

14 MR. IVETIC: I'm told by my colleague that at 21, line 6 of the

15 transcript -- there it is, the word crime policeman was put into the

16 transcript. The witness in Serbian said "kriminolog," which we believe

17 means criminologist in English. I don't know if it makes much of a

18 difference for purposes of the subject matter, but we bring that to the

19 Court's an attention.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: What is a criminologist?

21 MR. IVETIC: A criminologist? We can ask the witness.

22 Q. Sir, when you mentioned -- when you stated that you were in

23 Serbian a "kriminolog," which I believe is either a crime policeman or

24 criminologist, could you describe what that -- what that is, sir?

25 A. I will try to describe it briefly. I am a policeman by

Page 24818

1 profession. I did police work, but I also did studies, investigations,

2 and detection of perpetrators of aggravated threat and beginning

3 perpetrators into custody. So my job was to write criminal reports and

4 not --

5 JUDGE BONOMY: [Previous translation continues] ...

6 MR. IVETIC: That's why I said I don't think it made much

7 difference in the subject matter but --

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Which gives me an opportunity to ask you another

9 question. In your statement you say you're a graduate of the -- in the

10 English Defectology Faculty. What is that?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am a teacher for special needs

12 and a lawyer.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.


15 Q. And, sir, did any of your subordinate officers in your PJP

16 brigade ever draft or prepare either written notes or decision maps

17 deciding the assignments for your forces in anti-terrorist actions with

18 the VJ?

19 JUDGE CHOWHAN: Well, I'm not clear on this and I'd like to ask

20 you a question. What do you mean by teacher for special needs? What is

21 "special needs"? Would you kindly elaborate this "special needs"?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Persons who are asocial, persons of

23 asocial behaviour and who need to be reintegrated into society. That's

24 my segment. But in that area, there are many other fields that deal with

25 psychology and other aspects of it.

Page 24819

1 JUDGE CHOWHAN: Thank you.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic, there is question there to --

3 MR. IVETIC: Yes.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: -- to be repeated.

5 MR. IVETIC: I will repeat it, Your Honours.

6 Q. Sir, did any of your subordinate officers in your PJP brigade

7 ever draft or prepare written orders or decision maps deciding on the

8 assignments of your forces in anti-terrorist actions?

9 A. No. I had no qualified personnel that would deal with that. If

10 necessary, I can elaborate.

11 Q. Now, generally speaking, how did you and your officers cooperate

12 with the command of the army brigade on the terrain in the course of an

13 anti-terrorist action?

14 A. I always took care to cooperate well with the command because

15 they always assisted me generously on the ground, and whenever I needed

16 an opinion or advice or possibly a suggestion, I tried to accept their

17 advice as to how to best integrate as far as the military aspect was

18 concerned.

19 Q. And as far as communication with the VJ commander or commanders

20 during an anti-terrorist action, how was that effectuated by yourself and

21 by your subordinate officers, company, and platoon commanders -- or

22 company commanders, I should say.

23 A. I was appointed commander of detachment. Within the detachment I

24 had assistants and company commanders. Unfortunately, I had at the most

25 one military officer or somebody who graduated from the military academy.

Page 24820

1 Most often the people were not qualified in terms of waging war or

2 anti-combat -- anti-terrorist combat. Therefore, I relied on military

3 commanders as experts in the field, and I, whenever possible, arranged

4 with them to have my commanders work together with military commanders

5 and act together in order to -- to be successful in that field.

6 I hope I've answered your question.

7 Q. Now, at paragraph 30 of your statement, you talk on an

8 anti-terrorist action, I believe, Bajgora, at the end of April 1999. In

9 the course of that action did you personally participate with your unit

10 on the ground?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And with regards to your unit and that particular action, who

13 planned the tasks and who explained the tasks to you regarding your

14 assignments in this action?

15 A. I wasn't able to plan or to draft a competent, in the technical

16 sense, plan. I would always receive a plan that had been prepared both

17 in terms of text and symbols. It indicated directions of movements and

18 the units that were to be involved, and I would rely on that plan and act

19 in accordance with the plan.

20 Q. Now -- now, prior -- now -- now, did you have occasion to meet

21 with VJ commanders before the action, and what was the topic of that

22 meeting?

23 A. Naturally, prior to each action we would meet. The topic would

24 be the planned action, natural. We would agree on the manner to proceed,

25 and we acted in accordance with the plan that I would receive before the

Page 24821

1 action. Even if there were some changes or amendments, they were minor

2 usually, because sometimes the plan did not correspond to the factual

3 situation on the ground, but most often it did correspond.

4 Q. And in the course of that meeting who would take the lead in

5 terms of -- in the course of this meeting who took the lead in terms of

6 explaining the assignments and handing out the assignments for the

7 various VJ and MUP units involved in that action?

8 A. Those were the meetings where participants came, meaning

9 commanders or their deputies who were to participate in the particular

10 action. Since I am not a qualified person, we always had this

11 gentleman's agreement that the military commander was to explain the

12 entire action. I had some difficulties with technical aspects of it when

13 it came to various pieces, weaponry, and so on, so I would always yield

14 to the military commander and have him explain that because he was

15 certainly much more qualified.

16 Q. I would like to take a moment to show you Exhibit 5D1329, which

17 is a map that has been presented here in these proceedings as if from

18 this Bajgora action. And once you have a chance to review the same on

19 the screen when this comes up in e-court, sir, I would ask you to tell me

20 if the depiction of movements on this map accurately comports to your

21 recollection of the assignments and situation on the ground.

22 A. Please allow me to read this. "Decision of the commander of

23 211th Armoured Brigade for blocking, defeating, and destroying Siptar

24 terrorist forces in the Bajgora sector." Yes, that is consistent, and I

25 see here that in the signature it says: "Approved by Commander

Page 24822

1 General Lazarevic." And in the right corner I see

2 Commander Mihajlo Gergar. If I'm reading it correctly. The letters are

3 a bit small.

4 Yes, this map pertains to that action. I recognise the area, but

5 some details are not consistent with what I remember about the factual

6 situation.

7 Q. The lower right quadrant -- the lower right corner of the map

8 where the drawings are located of the troop movements. And I apologise I

9 just lost my transcript for some reason.

10 Sir, looking at this zoomed in portion that allows us to better

11 read the details, does this map comport to your recollection of the

12 situation on the ground and the assignments for the Bajgora action?

13 A. I can't recognise villages, and the vicinity on this map, could

14 you zoom in just a bit more so that I can see better and be able to

15 comment?

16 Q. And maybe just a little bit more. One more.

17 A. I will try again. See, the map has certain directions of

18 movement written in and units. I recognise 211th Armoured and 354th.

19 Those are military brigades. And then I see BG211. I'm looking for PJP

20 units which would be my units.

21 Could you scroll down a bit, please. No, to -- up, please.

22 Two companies of 122nd PJP Brigade are drawn on the map, but that

23 is not consistent with my memory this central part, because these PJP

24 forces are too strong, and I don't think that's how it was. And on the

25 left side I'm not sure whether this town here is Kosovska Mitrovica or

Page 24823

1 some other place. You probably can discern this better. Could you

2 please assist me with this?

3 Q. If -- yes. I believe it is. Mitrovica to the left and Vucitrn

4 down towards the bottom of the map if that helps you any, but -- the

5 computer's acting --

6 A. I can recognise only the right side of the map. I'm not

7 recognising the left side of the map at all. I don't remember seeing

8 such a map, and I'm afraid that I don't know.

9 Q. Fair enough. Now, in the course of this particular action, the

10 Bajgora action, did you ever act in a command capacity over VJ artillery

11 so as to be able to order or direct them to initiate fire?

12 A. No. I could not command artillery, nor am I qualified to do

13 that.

14 Q. And in the course of this action did you ever actually come into

15 contact with any civilians in undertaking your tasks?

16 A. No. Along this axis I did not come across them, but on this

17 Podujevo axis I was not the only unit. My unit and I never came across

18 any civilians.

19 Q. Now, Colonel Gergar in his testimony 1st of February 2009 [sic]

20 at transcript page 21530, line 22, through 21531, line 9 claim that OUP

21 of Podujevo also actively participated in this action toward Bajgora. Do

22 you agree with this recollection? Or do you have a comment?

23 A. According to my recollection, the Podujevo OUP did not have

24 sufficient forces to take part in that, but what I proposed to officers

25 of the Podujevo OUP was to give us guides who knew the area, spoke the

Page 24824

1 language, and could communicate to any civilians that we might encounter.

2 So what I can tell you is that this could only have been a small group,

3 say a company or two of guides, people who were familiar with the area

4 and people living there.

5 Q. You are recorded as saying a company or two of guides. Are you

6 referring -- does that accurately reflect the -- what you said in Serbian

7 or could you describe for us how many -- how many guides would be part of

8 the -- part of your -- of your unit or assigned to your unit and if there

9 were any?

10 A. Well, my recollections are not fully accurate, but given that we

11 did not know the area, those were units from Belgrade that had never been

12 in the area before. So we turned to officers in Podujevo asking them to

13 assist us, to give us a guide or two per company. So, for example, a

14 company would be given one or two guides. Sometimes a company did not

15 have a single guide, sometimes it had two. That's what we asked for and

16 what they were able to provide, because they did not have sufficient

17 personnel to be able to assign more people to us.

18 Q. Thank you. Now, if we could move along to Exhibit 6D709, the --

19 and I do have a hard copy. It might be easier to hand you a hard copy

20 since it is multiple pages long. And -- thank you. And I would ask you,

21 first of all, to identify if this document is a -- is a VJ or MUP

22 document. Once it comes -- there it is.

23 A. The document is clearly that of the army of Yugoslavia.

24 Q. If you could turn to section -- the section in paragraph 5.1 on

25 the assignment of units. And I apologise. I forgot to say the page

Page 24825

1 numbers for both versions. I believe it's the second or third page in

2 B/C/S. I'm about to find it and it ought to be the similar -- it's

3 the -- the second page in B/C/S, and in the English I believe it's the

4 third page. Yes, third page in English.

5 If I could direct you to this paragraph 5.1 and the assignments

6 listed there for the units. Do you recognise your unit in this -- in

7 this list and/or the assigned task and or movement?

8 A. Under item 5, 5.1 it says 211th Armoured Brigade. That's a

9 military unit. Parts of the brigade together with the 95th VTOd, and one

10 company of 122nd Intervention. I can recognise this company as part of

11 my unit. Then it says territorially of MUP, and then in parenthesis

12 minus 3 and then it says OPG and JSO. I don't know what this stands for.

13 I think that this might be a mistake.

14 Q. Can you tell us what you mean by that?

15 A. Well, I think that this order, and I think that this order

16 pertains to destruction -- defeating, destroying Siptar terrorist forces.

17 I think that a JSO unit did not participate in this action if perhaps we

18 could look at another document to confirm this, but I think that another

19 unit took part not the JSO. But I'm recognising here a military unit,

20 another military unit, part of my unit, and territorial segment of

21 another unit.

22 Q. And do you recognise the assignment or the line of movement in

23 this -- in this -- in this section as -- does it comport to your memory

24 of the action from Palatna?

25 A. It is difficult for me to do that without a map since I don't

Page 24826

1 know the area. I don't know these villages. But based on my

2 recollection, I have read before the names of these villages, these

3 peaks. Lukovska Banja, that's at the bottom of the Kopaonik mount

4 towards Podujevo and that should be that direction of movement. I'm

5 recognising that, Lukovska, Banja, Palatna, and Metohija villages. So

6 Lukovska Banja is in the Republic of Serbia. That is the border area. I

7 know this.

8 Q. Okay. And did you plan out these assignments for your unit as

9 set forth herein?

10 A. I realise on the existing task, and based on that task my company

11 commanders and I within the task -- or, rather, I told my company

12 commanders how to act within this task. So I fully relied on this task

13 and acted in accordance with it.

14 Q. Now, if we look at paragraph 14 of this document, that's on the

15 last page in both languages, I believe, or it ought to be on the last

16 page in both languages, and we'll see that it is said that the 211th OKBR

17 or Armoured Brigade I believe is the acronym, is the barer of planning,

18 organisation and implementation of this action. Is that in accord with

19 your recollections from the ground vis-a-vis the pre-action meeting?

20 A. Under item 14 it says reports to be forwarded, if that's what you

21 have in mind. This has to do with the military command. They had the

22 wrong regular and interim, and then below it, it says the 211th Armoured

23 Brigade command which is responsible for planning, organising and

24 conducting activities shall organise combined action between the elements

25 of combat disposition [Realtime transcript read in error

Page 24827

1 "disparamilitary"] during the planning, organisation, preparation, and

2 conduct of combat operations in this sector.

3 Q. According to your recollection on the ground was the 211th the

4 bearer - I don't see how it's been translated here - the one organising

5 the combined action between elements of the combat troops -- I don't

6 know, Your Honours, at page 30 line 17 we have -- we have this word

7 despair military groups. I don't know where that comes from I'm looking

8 at the English text right now and it's not there.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: I think you would have to ask the witness to

10 clarify that whole sentence.

11 MR. IVETIC: Okay. Let me start by reading it back to you, sir,

12 from the -- from the transcript it says and I now quote from line 14:

13 "And then it says the 211th Armoured Brigade command which is

14 responsible for planning, organising, and conducting activities shall

15 organise combined action between elements of combat disparamilitary

16 groups along the planning -- during the planning, organisation, trips and

17 conduct of combat operations in this sector."

18 Is that in fact what you -- what you said? That is did you

19 utilise the term disparamilitary groups?

20 A. No, no. I've never said anything of the sort, paramilitary.

21 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... paragraph 14 which we have

22 in front us and which I think rather than having you read the text back

23 to us we'll go what's on the screen in everyone in a language they

24 understand. Practically speaking what did this mean on the ground in the

25 course of the action what was your role and what was the role of the

Page 24828

1 commander of the 211th Armoured Brigade that was to -- that was to lead

2 the planning -- or that was to organise plan, et cetera, as set forth in

3 paragraph 14?

4 A. My comment is as follows: Command over police forces was my

5 role. As for planning and joint action and cooperation, we did that

6 altogether. I was unable to plan it, but I took part in it. So

7 according -- or, rather, vis-a-vis the police forces, I had the main role

8 but I had to fit in into the existing plan. Is this to your liking, my

9 answer?

10 Q. One moment. And who -- who was it that would plan, direct, and

11 organise the -- the implementation of the action, the overall

12 implementation of the action?

13 A. As you can see from the heading, the plan was adopted by the

14 military commander. He commanded his forces, and I commanded police

15 forces, and we acted in joint action.

16 Q. If you received a -- if you received a written order at the

17 brigade level for this action, this particular action?

18 A. I think I did. But if you have the document, could you perhaps

19 refresh my memory.

20 Q. All right. If we can first of all focus on one other matter. In

21 his testimony, 1st of February, 2008, page 21535, line 22 through to

22 21536, line 1, Colonel Gergar stated that he had absolutely no role in

23 planning anything for your unit. Would you agree 100 per cent with this

24 statement?

25 A. Not hundred per cent. Naturally I would have been unable to

Page 24829

1 function without him.

2 Q. And whose map did you utilise for this action?

3 A. When it comes to this action, I don't know whether Mr. Gergar and

4 his command drew the map or perhaps it was the Pristina Corps command,

5 but at any rate, I had to adapt to that map, and I acted in accordance

6 with it. If you have it, please show it to me.

7 Q. First of all, sir, do you recall what was drawn on the map? That

8 is to say, were positions and assignments for both VJ and MUP units drawn

9 on the map that you utilised for this action?

10 A. Of course. That is serious map. In a serious map the units of

11 the army and the police are marked and the directions in which both move.

12 Q. If we can take a moment to look at 5D1414?

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Is this on the same subject?

14 MR. IVETIC: Yes, it is, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: You want to complete it then or --

16 MR. IVETIC: Oh, are we -- are we -- I thought today was quarter

17 till?

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Oh, I'm sorry. My mistake again. Please

19 continue.

20 MR. IVETIC: I'd be more than happy to --

21 JUDGE BONOMY: No, please continue.

22 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 If we could look at 5D14 -- 1414. And I don't know if -- it's

24 probably best on the screen. The one -- the one I have is not much

25 clearer. There we go. And if we could perhaps zoom in a bit. And this

Page 24830

1 appears to be a map presented as if it relates to the region Palatna.

2 Q. Would this be the type of --

3 MR. IVETIC: And if -- there is a second page to the document

4 that is actually the second half of the map. That's why I thought maybe

5 I could give a hard copy to the witness so he has the full in front of

6 him.

7 Q. And if we could go to the second page for the next question, sir.

8 The bottom right of the document has a name and signature. Are you in a

9 position to recognise that name and signature and can you tell us do you

10 know the person listed as preparing this particular map? The lower right

11 of page 2.

12 A. I cannot see it on the screen, but I can see it on this map. In

13 the lower right-hand corner the head of OOPIO, Colonel Radojko

14 Stefanovic. In my view he should be the person who drew this map.

15 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... a moment. This is the --

16 the exhibit is a map that's cut into two segments. Page 2 ought to be

17 the second segment, the lower half of the map and that's the lower

18 right-hand corner of the second page that we ought to be looking at on

19 the screen. There we go. Would he could zoom in on the lower right of

20 that. I apologise sir if you could continue. You just indicated that in

21 my view he should be the person who drew this map. Could you complete

22 your answer by letting me know if you are familiar with this person that

23 is to say do you know this person that you've identified this person,

24 Colonel Radojko Stefanovic and which organisation he belongs, or what

25 entity he belongs to?

Page 24831

1 A. As far as I know, I think I saw Radojko Stefanovic once when I

2 met him. I could hardly recognise him now. According to this signature,

3 he was the chief, and he was probably in the Pristina Corps of the army.

4 So he's a military officer, right.

5 Q. And you were able to -- are you in a position to recognise his

6 signature?

7 A. Well, perhaps I could recognise his signature because I used to

8 see that signature. I saw it on a few other maps, but of course right

9 now -- I mean, well, I am not doubting the authenticity of this. It's

10 probably ...

11 Q. And if we can look at 5D1070. That should be a combat report of

12 the command of the 211th Armoured Brigade. And if I could direct your

13 attention and ask you just to review paragraphs 2.1 and 4(a). There's no

14 need to read them since we have the text in front of us, but if you could

15 review those two paragraphs and comment upon this assessment of the

16 action.

17 A. Can I start giving my comment? Of course you can see that the

18 report was sent to the command of the Pristina Corps. An explanation is

19 provided that the units are primarily engaged in providing support to the

20 MUP and the SAJ. In the previous map I saw JSO, so that is a mistake.

21 It is the SAJ definitely. This is what the report says.

22 In addition to cooperation along this axis, I think that this

23 combat group also created a local route along which the population could

24 move. Later I think that this was a good thing to do, a humane thing to

25 do, because they had the mechanisation in order to carry this out.

Page 24832

1 I have no other comment.

2 Q. Do you -- do you have any reason to doubt or -- strike that. Do

3 you -- does the report accurately reflect the -- the outcome of the

4 action and the manner in which it was undertaken according to your

5 recollections having been a participant in the same?

6 A. Well, that is small action which did not require combat readiness

7 at too high a level. We went through the terrain together because there

8 was a spill-over of Siptar terrorists into Serbia in that area, and these

9 local roads were being cut off and mined by the Siptar terrorists. The

10 objective was primarily to free this road, to de-mine the area in order

11 to ensure free movement in that area territorially speaking.

12 Q. And this report is signed by a Colonel -- by

13 Colonel Mihajlo Gergar. Where were you in relation to current Gergar in

14 the course of this action? Where were you located?

15 A. Well, I always tried to be near him in order to make it possible

16 for us to be together. Well, I mean not together. Together from a

17 professional point of view. That's what I'm saying. So that we could

18 cooperate better within the command.

19 Q. Now, let me move on to some other matters and I'll try to pick up

20 a few shorter ones as we're getting close to the break, and I don't want

21 to go into a completely new area at that time.

22 Now, if we can look at 5D506 and look at paragraph 3(b) the last

23 two sentences of this document. If I can ask you to review those and

24 tell me what your reaction or commentary is to the matter set forth

25 therein about the PJP and the area of Podujevo.

Page 24833

1 A. Well, I think that this comment, especially the one in the second

2 paragraph is a totally arbitrary one. We had a situation in the town of

3 Podujevo which is an urban area of over 50.000 inhabitants where up to a

4 degree we preserved the stability of the situation. As a matter of fact,

5 two or three times a week we had actions aimed at cooperation. I had a

6 team that would bring milk, cookies, chocolate, and they would take this

7 out into the streets and give it out to young people in order to maintain

8 a good relationship with them, partly for our own safety and partly in

9 order to preserve this urban area. I think that this is unfounded, this

10 comment.

11 I think this is the 354th. I think it is some Radosavljevic

12 person who was not there at all, who was there for a while, but who at

13 that time hardly ever left the premises where he was. I saw him less

14 than Colonel Gergar.

15 I'd like to add another thing in relation to civilians in our

16 humanitarian activities.

17 Q. Well, since you bring it up, at page 18249 through 50 of the

18 transcript, General Lazarevic offered the possible suggestion that the

19 failure of the PJP as far as the Crisis Staff was related to a failure to

20 react in time to efforts undertaken by the army and Crisis Staff to deal

21 with the large number of civilian refugees that were being cared for.

22 What can you add to this -- to this discussion about -- about such a

23 possibility as that and the -- and the insinuation, at least a failure on

24 the part of the PJP failure to act in time.

25 Sir, was there a translation?

Page 24834

1 A. I'm not receiving any interpretation now.

2 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, there's a translation issue, and I

3 don't know, should I go ahead and ask again?

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, you should ask the question again.

5 MR. IVETIC: Okay.

6 Q. At page 18249 through 50 of the transcript General Lazarevic

7 offered the possible suggestion that the failure of the PJP as far as the

8 Crisis Staff was related to a failure to react in time to efforts

9 undertaken by the army and Crisis Staff to deal with the large number of

10 civilian refugees that are being cared for. What can you add to this

11 discussion.

12 Your Honours, I don't know I'm not listening to the Serbian

13 translation, but I'm told it's not -- it's not coming through.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Can the interpreter tell me the problem?

15 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters do not have the original

16 document, so the interpreters are interpreting what Mr. Ivetic is

17 reading, and he's reading fast.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: But we're being told there's no interpretation

19 coming through. Is that wrong?

20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpretation into B/C/S is audible on channel

21 6.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, but -- well, let's have our break now and

23 sort this out and --

24 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: -- after the break.

Page 24835

1 Mr. Zivaljevic, we have to break at this stage for half an hour.

2 While we have that break could you please leave the courtroom with the

3 usher. And we will resume at 11.15.

4 --- Recess taken at 10.45 a.m.

5 --- On resuming at 11.16 a.m.

6 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, sorry. Before the witness comes in. He

7 can come in. We don't have a problem with that. Only one correction for

8 the transcript. On page 31, line 23, the translation was the last

9 sentence: Is this to your liking, my answer. I think that the meaning

10 of that part was completely different. The witness used the word,

11 "zadovoljana." I think that he meant if that answer suffice, not of the

12 likings of somebody.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

14 Now, resume the examination with Mr. Ivetic.

15 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. Hello again, Mr. Zivaljevic. I'm going to try and simplify my

17 question so as to make it easier to relay to you and to have it answered.

18 We've had various matters raised in these proceedings, including the

19 trial transcript at page 18249 to 50 of General Lazarevic, and we've had

20 other suggestions that we'll get to later that the MUP in the area of

21 Podujevo was not reacting to an assist civilian refugees that were being

22 cared for in Podujevo. Do you agree with this assertion, and can you

23 help us with that?

24 A. Well, I do not agree. I think that that assertion is quite

25 wrong. We did a great deal of work concerning care for refugees. If

Page 24836

1 necessary, I can comment on this in greater detail.

2 At one moment in the time -- in the town of Podujevo it was very

3 quiet, and of course everything we did we did outside Podujevo, because

4 Podujevo is a town that is near the border with Serbia. The Siptar

5 terrorist forces had for months been digging communication trenches and

6 trenches near Podujevo parallel to the road between Nis and Pristina. We

7 assumed that one day these roads would be closed as well and that

8 citizens and goods, civilians, would not be able to move along that road.

9 In the town of Podujevo, things were quiet. We took part in the

10 normal life of the town. As a matter of fact, we even helped civilians.

11 We tried, as far as children were concerned, not to appear as an armed

12 force that was there involved in any kind of dangerous activity in

13 respect of them. We tried to talk to them, communicate with them, et

14 cetera.

15 Q. Now, if we could take a moment to look at 5D436, and for our

16 purposes once this document comes up if I can ask for page 4 of the

17 Serbian and page 5 of the English to come up on the screen. And we're --

18 I would focus your attention to paragraph 9, which is the last paragraph

19 on the page in the Serbian original. And if I could ask you, sir, to

20 read this paragraph aloud and tell me whether in fact it -- whether in

21 fact you agree that it accurately depicts the situation on the ground in

22 Podujevo insofar as this is a report of the -- of a visit to the 354th

23 Brigade.

24 A. "In the area of responsibility of the brigade there is no

25 singleness of command. The brigade commander has particularly pointed

Page 24837

1 out dissatisfaction with the conduct of special police units which do not

2 respect the agreed times and axes of the engagement and that the

3 personnel of the PJP is often involved in the looting. Officers and

4 soldiers are very discontented with the MUP units, particularly the PJP

5 as being better equipped with communications equipment and protection

6 equipment than their units, although they perform the same tasks. They

7 point out that the MUP receives their salaries on a more regular basis as

8 well as their daily allowances and that it has ensured periodical

9 rotations of units and rest periods for personnel."

10 May I give my comment with regard to this text?

11 Q. Rather than commenting I would simply ask you do you agree with

12 the text, especially the allegation that the PJP were regularly engaging

13 in theft?

14 A. No, on the contrary. On the contrary. We prosecuted such

15 behaviour many times, and whenever we learned of any such things we took

16 serious measures against perpetrators.

17 Q. I would like to first of all ask you, we've heard testimony --

18 I'll strike that. If we could have P1458 put up on the screen. And --

19 and if I could direct you to the first page on both the Serbian and

20 English, and it's the bottom of the page, the second to last paragraph in

21 the Serbian; and if I can ask to read this paragraph and tell me whether,

22 in fact, based on -- upon your knowledge and experience this accurately

23 reflects the situation as you saw it on the terrain or not.

24 A. Is it the last or the one but last or both paragraphs?

25 Q. The second to last paragraph.

Page 24838

1 A. "The work of mixed check-points of the MUP and the army of

2 Yugoslavia is fraught with numerous problems and unresolved issues since

3 the MUP tolerates criminal activities of its members against the Siptar

4 civilian population - murder, rape, looting, robbery, aggravated theft;

5 particularly conspicuous is the appropriation," probably, "of some goods,

6 technical goods and other moveables."

7 Q. And I believe the one acronym you couldn't read, MV is translated

8 in English as motor vehicles. Do you accept that that could be -- what

9 that acronym MV stands for?

10 A. I accept that.

11 Q. I return to my original question. Having read this paragraph,

12 does it accurately reflect the situation on the ground as you experienced

13 it and had knowledge of it in 1999?

14 A. This is a very serious accusation. In order to clarify this

15 situation, I can only say that we in our command prosecuted over 70 cases

16 of abuse.

17 Q. Do you agree with this assessment or not, sir? That's all.

18 A. No, I certainly do not agree with this assessment. It is

19 pointless, groundless.

20 Q. Now, if we could move along to -- let's see. I've -- I want to

21 go back to the part I skipped before the break. If we could go back to

22 Exhibit 6D709 for a moment. And on the first page -- I believe you still

23 have a hard copy in front of you, sir, of 6D709. That's the Pristina

24 Corps order for the action Palatna.

25 There is some handwriting within a circle on the upper right-hand

Page 24839

1 side -- upper right-hand corner of the first page of this document. Are

2 you able to decipher the same, as I believe it's in Cyrillic. And I --

3 A. I think that what is written here, but I'm not quite sure, I

4 think it says "Mijat," and underneath it sayings "K." Now, is it

5 Lazarevic? I don't know. Perhaps I'm mistaken but --

6 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

7 A. If that's it.

8 MR. IVETIC: If you could zoom in on that portion on the screen.

9 A. Oh, no.


11 Q. Can you read it better now, or if you can't read it, just say you

12 can't read it.

13 A. I see it now. I can read the first word. I think it is "Mijat,"

14 but I'm not sure about the second word, what it is that's written there.

15 I see it well, but I cannot interpret it in detail.

16 Q. Do you -- do you recall what your radio call-sign was in 1999

17 during the time period of the Palatna action?

18 A. I don't see it written that way, but it may be the case.

19 Q. Do you recall what your radio call-sign was in 1999 around the

20 time of the -- of the ...

21 A. I think it was Lazar.

22 Q. Thank you. And if we can -- one moment, please.

23 [Defence counsel confer]


25 Q. All right. Now, if we can move to my last topic. Do you recall

Page 24840

1 an action entitled "Drenica 1"?

2 A. Yes, I do remember.

3 Q. With respect to that action, did you personally participate in

4 the action?

5 A. No, I did not, but as far as I recall, my deputy Nikolic did.

6 Q. And to try and speed things up, did -- yes or no, did -- did this

7 deputy Nikolic report to you after the action was completed?

8 A. Yes, upon return to my location.

9 Q. And did either Nikolic report to you or did anyone from the VJ

10 ever complain to you about the conduct of Nikolic or your unit in the

11 action, particularly that they rejected their assignment or something in

12 that vein? Yes or no?

13 A. No. It wasn't even possible. Communications did not work.

14 Q. And -- and when Nikolic returned and reported to you, did he --

15 did he discuss any problems with the VJ participants in that action?

16 A. Yes, yes. He complained to me about the way he was treated. At

17 one point he was supposed to go there with two companies, however there

18 was a change of plan on the spot. They wanted to assign him to two

19 different axes which was unrealistic. He couldn't do it. And as far as

20 I know, one of the combat groups of the army is simply didn't show up. I

21 believe it was the 37th. If I could -- if I had a document, I could be

22 sure, but I think that could be the reason why this occurred.

23 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... examination for this witness

24 at this time, Your Honours.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.

Page 24841

1 Mr. Fila.

2 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have only two

3 questions.

4 Cross-examination by Mr. Fila:

5 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Zivaljevic.

6 A. Good morning.

7 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Could Exhibit P1989 be shown to the

8 witness, please.

9 Q. As you see, Mr. Zivaljevic, this is a record from a meeting at

10 the ministry staff in Pristina. Did you attend it?

11 A. I attended few meetings. Let me just check. I attended one

12 meeting of this kind, but I would have to check whether this is the one.

13 Could you show me another page, please?

14 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Please show him page 4.

15 Q. Page 4 in Serbian, in the last large paragraph of five lines it

16 says: "The deputy federal Prime Minister took part as well." Do you

17 remember now?

18 A. Yes. I attended one meeting at which we presented certain

19 details and problems, and Mr. Sainovic came to that meeting, but as far

20 as I recall, he came to the end of the meeting in time to catch the final

21 words, and I think he stayed a very short time. That's at least my

22 recollection.

23 Q. Can you recall why he had come, if you remember?

24 A. Well, it was a long time ago, but as far as I remember, he gave a

25 very brief presentation, greeted everyone. But again, as far as I

Page 24842

1 remember, he didn't pay attention to any details. He greeted everyone,

2 wished us luck, and left in a hurry.

3 Q. To conclude, did his participation at that meeting have anything

4 to do with the work of the MUP command activities, et cetera?

5 A. No, nothing of the kind.

6 Q. Let me ask you one other thing. In response to a question from

7 my colleague Mr. Ivetic when he showed you a map concerning Bajgora map

8 and Colonel Gergar, I will ask one question, but I will be using a

9 document for the Court maybe to make it easier to follow, it's document

10 P1975, item 13.

11 In paragraph 41 of your statement you stated that you have never

12 heard of or seen a Joint Command, and you have no knowledge of anything

13 of the kind. However, the position of the Prosecution is different,

14 which is nothing you really need to know, but I want to ask you this:

15 You said you looked at the map with Colonel Gergar, you showed him

16 certain things on the map and then you got involved in the action. We're

17 talking about the moment at which you are engaged. You are in command

18 over your units and you say the army was in command of theirs.

19 Did anybody command you during the action during the broader area

20 of Pristina or some other entity.

21 A. No, we were there. We were doing that alone. As I described, I

22 commanded my own men and we followed the plan made by Gergar.

23 Q. And when the action was over did you write a report to some sort

24 of Joint Command or something?

25 A. No. This communication was impossible. There was no possibility

Page 24843

1 to send a courier something. We just filed a report with our

2 administration later.

3 Q. In that action or any other action in which you were involved,

4 did you notice the presence of some Joint Command or any group of

5 civilians who would be involved in any way, at least be merely present in

6 the area of your command?

7 A. No. I noticed no such thing.

8 MR. IVETIC: Matter, Your Honour, at page 46, lines 14 through

9 15, it says that we just filed a report with our administration later.

10 The witness in Serbian said "uprava policije," which I think is

11 significant. It clarifies to whom --

12 JUDGE BONOMY: And who is that?

13 MR. IVETIC: That should be the police, the -- let's have the --

14 let's have the witness explain who the --

15 JUDGE BONOMY: I'll deal with that, Mr. Ivetic.

16 MR. IVETIC: Okay.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: You were asked when the action was over, did you

18 write a report to the Joint Command or something, and you said, "We just

19 filed a report." Now, where did you file it?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not to the Joint Command. When all

21 activities were completed, I filed a report to the police administration

22 in the MUP Belgrade.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

24 Mr. Bakrac.

25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Before you

Page 24844

1 let me proceed with the cross-examination, I did not object to the

2 question of Mr. Ivetic, one of them, until I was able to check the

3 transcript, and I think on pages of the transcript 18248 to 250 it was

4 misstated to the witness that nothing had been done with the refugees

5 on -- on behalf of General Lazarevic.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: That's and matter to be dealt with now by you if

7 you wish, Mr. Bakrac, by putting an appropriate question to the witness

8 to clarify the situation.

9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Cross-examination by Mr. Bakrac:

11 Q. Mr. Zivaljevic my name is Mihajlo Bakrac attorney-at-law

12 appearing here for General Lazarevic. I would like to ask you a few

13 questions. We'll start from the beginning of your statement where in

14 paragraph 4 you say that PJM units were established. As far as I

15 understand, those are specialised units of the police, and they were set

16 up in 1993.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Apart from the name, which was later changed to PJP, did anything

19 change in the substance of this document that established them?

20 A. The name was changed to police. Those were regular police forces

21 for regular work and assignments with some additional advanced training

22 for some other kind of work for public gatherings, possibly

23 anti-terrorist activities, for apprehending dangerous criminals, et

24 cetera.

25 Q. So one of their tasks was to combat terrorism.

Page 24845

1 A. That's the way it turned out.

2 Q. Could we now look at P1508. That's the document creating the

3 PJM. You have already told us that one of their tasks was to fight

4 terrorism, but could we now look at page 3, please. Page 3, "Control and

5 command over the PJM."

6 Could you kindly read the first paragraph, item (c), control and

7 command.

8 A. "Assembly and engagement of the PJM may be ordered only by the

9 minister of the interior or an official authorised by the minister.

10 Specialised units of the militia shall be commanded by the PJM commander

11 with the mediation of detachment commanders and superior officers of

12 lower establishment units. The PJM commander is answerable for his work,

13 mobility, qualification, and work of the PJM to the minister or the

14 person authorised by the minister, whereas other leaders are answerable

15 directly to the superior officer at the PJM."

16 Q. Did this document continue to be in force when PJM became PJP in

17 1998 and 1999?

18 A. I didn't read this very carefully in detail, but in principle

19 this is the way it was created, and I don't think it changed beyond

20 certain limits, but later that actual state of affairs was considerably

21 changed.

22 Q. What do you mean?

23 A. I don't know if this is a provision of this document or is it a

24 bylaw on their creation. In 1993, it was formulated that way, and I

25 suppose it didn't change.

Page 24846

1 Q. Wait a minute. We are not going to make any assumptions. You

2 were the commander of the PJP. 122nd Detachment of the PJP was one of

3 the largest.

4 A. It existed before 1999.

5 Q. I'm asking you as the commander of the largest PJP detachment

6 whether command and control really operated that way.

7 A. No, not really like that. Until the situation occurred in Kosovo

8 it did, but not later. Those were different conditions of work when we

9 had public gatherings and --

10 Q. What changed in 1999?

11 A. The method of work. There were many new reorganisations of

12 detachments in numerical terms, in the names. It used to be 21 and then

13 it became 22.

14 Q. Those are formal changes. I'm asking you about control and

15 command. What changed? Who commanded over the PJP in 1998 and 1999?

16 A. Until 1997 the commander was Obrad Stevanovic. As far as I

17 remember he became deputy minister -- sorry, assistant minister, and I

18 saw him as the commander but I don't know whether he continued to be

19 commander after that, because the position of assistant minister is

20 several steps higher than PJP commander.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Zivaljevic, Mr. Zivaljevic, are you telling us

22 you don't know who the commander of the PJP was in 1998 and 1999?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw Obrad Stevanovic as the

24 commander, but he was assistant minister, and he came now and then to

25 visit us, but I didn't file reports to him, and I don't know any details.

Page 24847

1 JUDGE BONOMY: You've thrown doubt into the situation by saying,

2 "I don't know whether he continued to be commander after that." Now, are

3 you actually telling us you cannot say who the commander of the PJP was

4 in 1998 and 1999?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know until 1997 who was the

6 commander.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: So the answer is -- the answer is you cannot tell

8 us who the commander was in 1998 and 1999.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I thought that Obrad Stevanovic was

10 still the commander. Whenever I saw him I reported to him what was going

11 on on the ground.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Why are you expressing doubt? Because obviously

13 this is the sort of thing that makes our life very, very difficult when

14 from a common sense point of view you think a command in your position

15 would know precisely who his leader was, and you come in here and you

16 tell us you're doubtful about it. Now, why are you doubtful?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will tell you. When I was sent

18 to carry out tasks in Kosovo and Metohija, I was given a dispatch where

19 it said that Dragan Zivaljevic is being sent to perform the following

20 tasks, and so on. That was stated in the dispatch.

21 I suppose that the minister of the interior made sure that that

22 dispatch was issued, and I think that Rodja Djordjevic as chief of the

23 sector signed the dispatch. I don't have the dispatch in front of me so

24 I can't give you details.

25 So I came to Kosovo and Metohija to perform the tasks pursuant to

Page 24848

1 the task issued to me by the chief the sector. So the minister approved

2 it and chief of sector signed the dispatch. So I suppose that this is

3 the question that should be put to the chief of the sector, not to me.

4 It's not that I don't wish to answer, but now I find myself in this

5 situation that I'm unable to give you a fully accurate, specific answer.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, ought we to conclude that the system was

7 designed to make sure that even senior officers within the PJP didn't

8 know who the leader was? Was it designed to be confusing?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps that's how it appears. The

10 minister is at the top of the pyramid. He's number one. Then the chief

11 of sector is in charge of the police affairs, and then Obrad Stevanovic

12 was assistant minister and in charge of the police -- uniformed police.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bakrac.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is the first echelon.

15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Mr. Zivaljevic, I'm now confused. In your statement, in

17 paragraph 7, you said: "When it comes to the command of PJP formations,

18 they were commanded by Obrad Stevanovic. I know that in 1997 he became

19 assistant minister."

20 A. Correct.

21 Q. I don't understand.

22 A. I didn't say any untruth here.

23 Q. So Obrad Stevanovic was in command.

24 A. Up to 1997, definitely and then he became minister and in the

25 hierarchy that's a few steps above, and I don't know whether he continued

Page 24849

1 to be in command of those units.

2 Q. Okay, Mr. Zivaljevic can we please look at the following page the

3 continuation of this paragraph command and control --

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Just one thing you should bear in mind when

5 dealing with these questions, Mr. Stevanovic may well come here and tell

6 us what his position is, and that's one thing, but perhaps much more

7 important is to know what other people's impression was of his position.

8 So it's important that we get a full account of what your understood his

9 position to be.

10 Mr. Bakrac.

11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

12 Q. Can we now turn to the second page -- or to the other page.

13 Would you please read the first paragraph on the following page?

14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in English that's on

15 the same page, and in the Serbian it moves on to the fourth page. We can

16 keep the same page in the English.

17 A. The paragraph starts with the following words: "When at the same

18 area or on the same task there are several establishment units

19 intervening, in that case command, control, and coordination shall be

20 united and regulated by a special order, in principle by forming a Joint

21 Command."

22 Q. In this case when several units intervene in the same area, is

23 this method of command and control and coordination -- or, rather, was it

24 continued in 1998 and 1999, the same method?

25 A. I've explained just a bit ago that the conditions changed. These

Page 24850

1 documents were passed earlier when we didn't have these anti-terrorist

2 activities. We functioned -- or, rather, it's just the police force that

3 functioned under these circumstances. This is the essential difference.

4 Q. So in 1998 and 1999 the police forces worked on the basis of this

5 principle?

6 A. I said that the conditions had changed. Up until that time, up

7 until 1998, it's just the police forces that operated there whenever

8 there was a disruption in law and order or there was a large gathering or

9 there was some incidents, riots, and so on, but then the conditions

10 changed.

11 Q. What do you mean? In what sense?

12 A. Because after this time we had anti-terrorist combat.

13 Q. So what did that change in the command system in conducting

14 anti-terrorist combat within the police?

15 A. Well, within the police, the police wasn't ready for these tasks

16 because those were just regular policemen that were supposed to ensure

17 just basic security.

18 Q. Let me interrupt you.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Zivaljevic, this is -- this is setting out the

20 procedure, albeit set out in the early 1990s rather than the late 1990s,

21 and the simple question is: Did the paragraph that you read continue to

22 apply as the appropriate guidance in 1998 and 1999? Now, that's

23 different from whether and how it was implemented, but was that the rule

24 that should have been implemented?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Only within the police force, but

Page 24851

1 it wasn't just the police that wasn't involved at this point. It was

2 also the army, and that significantly changed.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Zivaljevic, it doesn't even apply to the

4 police in general. It's more specific than that. It only applies to the

5 special police units and that's clear when you read it. We know that.

6 We know it's got nothing to do with the army. So please answer the

7 questions that are being put to you. On the basis they're being put to

8 you. Was this the way the special police were supposed to operate? Now,

9 what's the answer to that question? Did it apply in 1998 and 1999.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In you're looking for an answer,

11 then I can tell you this: Within my detachment where I worked, I had my

12 parts of the unit, and all parts, I'm referring to commanders of

13 companies and so on, they were all answerable to me in that sense.

14 That's within my purview that I can tell you about.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: I specifically said to you don't deal with what

16 happened in practice. Don't deal with the change in circumstances on the

17 ground. Tell us whether in principle this is the rule that ought to

18 operate in 1998 and 1999. I hope the question is now clear.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If this rule did not change, then

20 it was supposed to be in operation, and I don't know that the rule was

21 changed, but the factual situation on the ground was frequently

22 different.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bakrac.

24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Q. Mr. Zivaljevic, who did you receive orders from?

Page 24852

1 A. I've told you. When I came to Podujevo, in a dispatch that I

2 received from the chief of the sector it was clearly stated what was my

3 destination, where I was supposed to arrive, and what was my objective

4 there and that I was supposed to stay there for a while, and a unit that

5 was supposed to be with me was specified.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm going to have to deal with this,

7 Mr. Zivaljevic. You were asked just now a very simple question, unless

8 there is something peculiar about the translation and no one has drawn

9 that to my attention, and the question was: Who did you receive orders

10 from?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I received the order from the chief

12 of the public security sector.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

14 Mr. Bakrac.

15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. So the order for you to carry out an anti-terrorist action, you

17 would receive such an order from whom?

18 A. I received orders pertaining to a task, and that task was a

19 complex one and it comprised perhaps two or three actions. I acted in

20 accordance with that task.

21 As for orders, I would receive them in advance, and I acted in

22 accordance with them. I had a basic order. I did not receive different

23 orders on a daily basis.

24 Q. All right. You explained to us how you received orders and maps.

25 Did you ever have an independent anti-terrorist action without the

Page 24853

1 participation of the army of Yugoslavia?

2 A. No, I didn't. I normally assisted the secretariat in the

3 territory where I was. So, for example, if the secretariat needed five

4 or six policemen for regular duties to arrest somebody and so on, I would

5 give them a reinforcement, a squad to assist them. So in that sense,

6 only purely police work.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Just a moment, please.

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bakrac, you asked a question at line 4 on page

10 56 of the transcript:

11 "So the order for you to carry out an anti-terrorist action, you

12 would receive such an order from whom?" Now, that questions has not been

13 answered. Do you not want the answer? Because if you don't want the

14 answer, we want it. So it would be helpful for you to pursue that and

15 get an answer to your question, please.

16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I attempted to put a

17 follow-up question. I asked him whether he received an order from

18 assistant chief of sector for a specific action, but let me ask again.

19 Q. For a specific action, be it an independent one or one conducted

20 jointly with the army of Yugoslavia, who would you receive an order from?

21 A. Let me tell you this: The dispatch sending me to perform a task

22 in Podujevo and to take part in anti-terrorist activities specified that

23 I was to go to Podujevo, to stay there, to get involved with the military

24 group operating in that area and to act in accordance with the plan, the

25 plan that I received from the army and to participate in those activities

Page 24854

1 in accordance with that plan.

2 Q. So let me stop you here. So the assistant chief of sector

3 ordered you in that dispatch to act in accordance with the army plans.

4 A. To get involved in those activities.

5 Q. To work in accordance with the army plans. And you are sitting

6 here under oath telling us you received such an order from assistant

7 chief of sector or the minister. Was that in writing?

8 A. Well you're asking me I don't have that dispatch in front of me.

9 Q. I have it in front of me.

10 A. I'm telling you that in the dispatch it was specified exactly

11 what my destination, location stay there was all about, what

12 transportation --

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, Mr. Bakrac is the reference to the assistant

14 chief of the sector? I've obviously missed something.

15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it is possible that I

16 made a mistake. I can't follow the transcript and the answers. Let me

17 ask again just to clarify this.

18 Q. Who signed --

19 JUDGE BONOMY: [Previous translation continues] ... the question

20 who is issuing these instructions.

21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Who issued the order sending you to Kosovo?

23 A. The dispatch was signed by the chief of the public security

24 sector Vlastimir Djordjevic. Now, whether he had received his orders

25 from the minister I don't know about that.

Page 24855

1 Q. And in that order he told you what? When did you first receive

2 that dispatch? When were you sent down there?

3 A. Sometime in the second half of March.

4 Q. Which year?

5 A. 1999. In that dispatch --

6 Q. Just a second. Just answer what I'm asking you. So prior to the

7 second half of March, you were not in Kosovo?

8 A. I was in Kosovo in January.

9 Q. On the same?

10 A. Not on the same on a different task and I can explain that if

11 necessary; and then I had a break I stayed in Belgrade and then I

12 received a dispatch to go there in March.

13 Q. To go to Kosovo?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And to resubordinate yourself to it the army of Yugoslavia?

16 A. I wouldn't put it in those terms.

17 Q. What did you receive as a task and what was your order?

18 A. Well, I'm telling you again I suggest that you take a look at

19 this dispatch. This dispatch says where I was supposed to go to, to what

20 area, with what forces, using what transportation, and what was my

21 objective during my stay there. It was all specified there.

22 Q. Just a second. So it was all specified in detail including the

23 transportation that you were going to use.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And from that moment on nothing on was specified in detail of

Page 24856

1 what you were going to do from there on, on the 24th the 25th the 26th

2 who was supposed to decide on that your participation and action and

3 anti-terrorist activities of your unit?

4 A. Let me explain dispatches normally specify a period of time. For

5 example, they say 30 days or 45 days but all of that is conditional. It

6 was never a firm rule that the stay was going last for 30 days or for 40

7 days.

8 Q. Who is going to specify whether you're going to stay there for 30

9 days or 40 days since it wasn't specified in the dispatch how? Did you

10 know how long you would stay there? Who would send you back?

11 A. The conditions on the ground would send you back.

12 Q. And that's something you decide upon?

13 A. Only within my scope of authority. I have a right to decide only

14 within my scope of authority which is specified by the dispatch.

15 Q. And what was your scope of authority when it came to

16 decision-making?

17 A. Well, it was within what I had. So on the one hand I had a

18 dispatch sending me to perform a task, and then on the other hand there

19 was documents there pertaining to the actions that were supposed to be

20 carried out on the ground.

21 Q. So in March you had documentation pertaining to all the actions

22 all the way until the end of June; right? Is that what you're trying to

23 tell us?

24 A. I want to tell you that I knew about an action which was of a

25 broader spectre, three larger actions pertaining to Malo Kosovo, Drenica,

Page 24857

1 and another action that I can't remember just now. This activity was

2 carried out by the Pristina Corps. They prepared the documentation. I

3 read that documentation.

4 Q. Do you remember you read that documentation of the Pristina Corps

5 and you remember it well?

6 A. Well, not really well. It was eight years ago. I remember

7 reading it. If you have it as evidence, you can put it to me.

8 Q. Did you then issue any orders to your subordinate units?

9 A. Listen, based on that basic order or the maps, the commander --

10 you saw the map drafted by Gergar and the order. Most likely he made

11 minor excerpts of the decision, and I adjusted, I adapted to what was

12 there. I commanded only police units, no other units.

13 Q. And where?

14 A. I told you, and I told Mr. Ivetic. Since I'm not qualified when

15 it comes to military science, I'm quite ignorant there. I always relied

16 on military commanders.

17 Q. All right. Now, let us stay there for a second. You relied on

18 military commanders.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: I would like to go back to the question which I

20 think has still not been answered, which is for specific anti-terrorist

21 actions, from whom did you receive your orders?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was sent out with the general

23 task. When I came to the field, I had an order map waiting for me, which

24 meant a concretisation of what I was supposed to do. The maps said what

25 I was supposed to do, and that was part of the text as well.

Page 24858

1 At the meetings with the military commander who was in that area

2 and with whom I established contact when I arrived, I roughly -- well,

3 not roughly, but I found out in greater detail what it was that we were

4 supposed to do.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bakrac, what is the number of the document

6 which originally sends the witness to Kosovo? And if you don't have it.

7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I don't have it right this moment.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Perhaps Mr. Ivetic can give me a number for it.

9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] 6D291. 6D291.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Please continue.

11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Mr. Zivaljevic, I'm asking you the following: These documents

13 were there waiting for you. I'm asking you whether the military

14 commander Gergar or anyone else commanded you.

15 A. Well, in the first stage I cannot explain it that way, that he

16 commanded. Please. I explained what it was that I could know and what

17 it was that I could not know. He always explained the map, the

18 direction, the axis and so on.

19 Q. Sir, you were commander of a big intervention brigade, the 122nd.

20 I'm asking you whether Gergar, Colonel Gergar, commanded you.

21 A. Well, I wouldn't call that command. I cooperated with Gergar.

22 Q. Thank you. Thank you. Cooperation.

23 A. Please, but there were two stages involved. Do you understand

24 me? Sometime in April, I don't know when this happened, there were

25 documents there that - how should I put this - that pertained to

Page 24859

1 subordination or resubordination actually.

2 Q. At any point in time were you resubordinated to the army of

3 Yugoslavia and Colonel Gergar?

4 A. No, not literally but I cooperated and heard his opinions.

5 Q. Thank you. Thank you. Now, you said that since you did not

6 complete a school for commanding artillery units you were not versed in

7 carrying out this kind of action and reading maps. How did it happen

8 that you were appointed commander of a big PJP detachment?

9 A. Well, I assume that my superior officers could be in a better

10 position to tell, but I will try to explain. I worked in the Belgrade

11 SUP from 1975, so my authority, in view of these policemen from Belgrade,

12 was at quite a high level. I had a great influence over the police, and

13 they listened to me, and I was devoted to them in the sense of taking

14 care of them and not exposing them to danger, and they appreciated that.

15 Q. Thank you. Mr. Zivaljevic, you said a few moments ago and also

16 during the direct examination, I noted that down, that often precisely

17 because of your lack of knowledge in anti-terrorist action conduct you

18 asked the commanders of the army of Yugoslavia. My question is the

19 following: Do you know that the head of the staff of the MUP in Kosovo

20 completed the military academy?

21 A. Yes, I know that.

22 Q. Do you know that the assistant head of staff of the MUP in

23 Kosovo, Mr. Mijatovic, also completed the military academy?

24 A. I know that.

25 Q. Do you know that Dusan Adamovic, an operative or whatever he was

Page 24860

1 on the staff completed the military academy.

2 A. I know that.

3 Q. Do you know that Obrad Stevanovic and you say that you saw him as

4 commander of the PJP, that he graduated from the military academy as

5 well?

6 A. Yes, I know that.

7 Q. Are all these persons -- were all these persons within the same

8 organ that you were in?

9 A. They all worked in the MUP.

10 Q. So why didn't you consult with them with regard to military

11 matters and with regard to your lack of knowledge, et cetera? Why did

12 you consult this military commander, a colonel at that?

13 A. I'll give you a simple explanation. I saw them very seldom.

14 Often I could not even see them, or our communications were interrupted.

15 It was wartime. There was bombing and often communication were

16 interrupted, so I could not establish contact with them. That is one of

17 the reasons.

18 Q. Now I'm going to go back to my previous question, Mr. Zivaljevic.

19 Are you claiming here today to us before this court that you never

20 carried out any independent anti-terrorist action without the

21 participation of the army of Yugoslavia?

22 A. Please, this action as an action I did not carry out, but

23 sometimes I had some returns or exits or movement towards an area or I

24 couldn't pass, but there is this one basic thing that I'm going to tell

25 you right now. It had to do with the following: The police wherever

Page 24861

1 they went they never used weapons until weapons were used against them.

2 I don't know what it is that you have in mind, but I did not plan this.

3 I don't know how to draw a map. Also, this order I don't know, but the

4 police work I had to carry out, I did carry out, and from time to time

5 there was some work there that required perhaps, in relation to crime or

6 some other activity, some activity that was different.

7 Q. You said that you don't know how to draw a map. Do you know how

8 to read a map?

9 A. Well, let me tell you, I practised that through my work. I am

10 not a person who is a slow learner. I managed to fit into this, but I

11 always needed someone who would help me.

12 Q. Well, a few moments ago you said that you had a military

13 assistant or, rather, an assistant from the MUP who was a graduate of the

14 military academy.

15 A. Well, yes, but often we were not together. You know, we were a

16 unit that was separated in two different areas. The fact that this is a

17 big unit did not really affect the part where I was, because the other

18 part was commanded by Bosko Buha in the area of Pec. That is over 100

19 kilometres away from the place where I was. We had small units and then

20 we separated them. In total these two units made up this --

21 Q. Well, yes. Your deputy, was he a military academy graduate?

22 A. Yes, he was, yes.

23 Q. Did he know how to read a map?

24 A. Well, for the most part he did when we were together but very

25 often we were separated.

Page 24862

1 Q. All right. Mr. Zivaljevic, let us look at 5D1418. Could we

2 please have a look at the second page of this document first, and the ERN

3 number is 534130. The next one, please.

4 Mr. Zivaljevic, I -- it seems that this is a telegram of the

5 122nd Intervention Brigade and the signature says Dragan Zivaljevic. Can

6 you have a look at it telegram, and can you tell us whether you recognise

7 it?

8 A. I recognise the telegram. May I give a comment?

9 Q. I am going to put questions to you. So you recognise it?

10 A. Yes, I do.

11 Q. Who is this telegram sent to?

12 A. Just a moment, please. 122nd Intervention Brigade, civilian

13 persons should is be returned to their village --

14 Q. No, no, no. I'm not asking you to read it out. I'm asking who

15 it was sent to this telegram?

16 A. The MUP staff.

17 Q. The number --

18 A. It says to the Chief of Staff of the PJP.

19 Q. No, sorry, sorry. I beg you pardon. I asked for the second page

20 of the 25th. The next one, please. The third one in actual fact. The

21 cover page would be the first page. The next page, please.

22 Do you recognise this document?

23 A. I recognise it, but there are some problems in this document.

24 Q. All right. You're going to explain it to us what kind of

25 problems? First of all, who was this document sent to?

Page 24863

1 A. The MUP of the republic of is Serbia sent -- actually, the

2 122nd Intervention Brigade to the chief of staff of the PJP.

3 Q. Yes. This is your signature, Dragan Zivaljevic?

4 A. Yes, yes, but I have to give an explanation in relation to this.

5 Q. Who is the chief of staff of the PJP?

6 A. It is completely the other way around. The communications person

7 who was supposed to do this didn't even know what the name of the staff

8 was and who headed the staff. Since the communications were broken down

9 because of the NATO bombing.

10 Q. I understand. Just a second, please. Please pause there. Let's

11 do this one thing at a time.

12 Did you sign this telegram?

13 A. Not at this moment. There weren't conditions for that, and later

14 on he brought this to me, what it was that he had sent.

15 Q. He sent a telegram without your knowledge?

16 A. No, not without my knowledge, but he did not know how to write a

17 proper heading. You see, we had this activity of returning civilians --

18 Q. Please take it slowly, Mr. Zivaljevic. What was the heading of

19 the telegram supposed to be like?

20 A. To the MUP staff.

21 Q. All right. To the MUP staff.

22 A. There is no chief of staff. This is completely wrong.

23 Q. All right. To the MUP staff. Please be so kind as to tell us

24 now the attained lines Bora 1. What does Bora 1 mean?

25 A. I cannot say that right now what Bora 1 was in this situation.

Page 24864

1 Q. Would you agree with me that this is a name for the map?

2 A. Well, you know on maps there are these little circles that denote

3 particular points that had been attained or something like that.

4 Q. I'm asking you what Bora 1 is, then after that you have the

5 points of attainment. What is Bora 1, the lines attained, Bora 1?

6 A. I cannot remember. "The lines attained, Bora 1." I assume that

7 it's some kind of a call-sign. It changed, let me tell you that.

8 Sometimes once a week. It is really hard to go back to that time,

9 remember everything and give a specific answer.

10 Q. Tell me, do you know on the 26th of May what does this action

11 pertain to? This telegram, rather, pertains to what action? The date is

12 the 26th of May.

13 A. It pertains to a humanitarian action, the return of civilian

14 persons to their places of residence.

15 Q. Fine. Humanitarian action of the return of civilian persons.

16 Tell us, what does "Grey 0" mean? Perhaps I can jog your memory.

17 A. Please do.

18 Q. Let's do it this way -- let's have a look, and then we'll go

19 back to this document. 5D1427. The last page, please. The last page of

20 this document. The last one, please.

21 This is --

22 MR. IVETIC: Objection to the question, Your Honour, insofar as

23 the document that's being referred to. There is no basis for this

24 foundation that this relates to the same time period or to the same

25 activities insofar as the title of the same is indeed temporary directory

Page 24865

1 and relates to a different region, et cetera. So unless, unless they

2 can -- counsel can show that this is something that relates to this

3 witness I don't think that the question is appropriate.

4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, by your leave. I think

5 that the question is quite appropriate. This witness here has his own

6 telegram right in front of him here, one that he signed. He has this

7 wording "Grey 0," and I would like to know whether he can link this up

8 with the list of code signs of the MUP that was operational at one point

9 in time in the MUP.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: The objection's repelled. Please continue.

11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Mr. Zivaljevic, please look at the second row, the last column

13 under "Grey" and "0". On the right-hand side. Is that a code for "I

14 have some wounded persons"?

15 A. That is what it means, but could you please lower this a bit so

16 that I can see the date?

17 Q. Fine, we can do that, but I'm just asking you is that what it

18 meant in your telegram?

19 A. Please, my man who worked on radio communications sent this

20 report. Now I am interpreting this.

21 Q. Just a second, please. He sent this report without your

22 knowledge?

23 A. Please, I sent it -- or, rather, I told him to send a report, and

24 he tried to make do because he could not do it through regular channels.

25 We didn't have radio communication. Perhaps he sent this through the

Page 24866

1 communications map. You know -- do you understand what the situation

2 was? All our repeaters were broken down every other day.

3 Q. Are you telling this telegram didn't receive the staff --

4 A. I'm going to give you an answer very soon.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Let's just calm it down. You've been asked a

6 question about the meaning of your telegram. Now, can you help us with

7 the use of the expression "Grey" and "0"? Now that you've seen this,

8 does it help you to tell us what Grey and 0 stood for in the telegram?

9 A. I assume that there is a meaning involved, but I just suggest

10 that we have a look at the date of this document. So can I please have a

11 look.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Is there a problem about looking at the date,

13 Mr. Bakrac? Let's lack at the date then.

14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The date is on the first page, but,

15 Your Honour, I believe that the witness will trust me. It is Pristina

16 1998.

17 A. Well, please lift it a bit so that I can see it.

18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Could you just scroll down a bit.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Let's see the bottom of the document. Where is --

20 where is the date on the document, Mr. Bakrac?

21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Pristina 1998, here it is, Your

22 Honour.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, having seen that, Mr. Zivaljevic, can you

24 help us to interpret your telegram?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would say that it's the correct

Page 24867

1 text, but I'm afraid it changed from time to time. This instruction

2 changed from time to time. I don't know if there were any changes here.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: I understand that. You've said all that. Just

4 let's concentrate on the question I'm asking you.

5 Having seen this, does that help you to interpret "Grey" and "0"

6 in your telegram?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I agree. It's okay. I believe

8 that telegram is --

9 JUDGE BONOMY: You believe what in -- just tell us what these

10 words meant or said in the telegram.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I suppose it meant that we had one

12 person wounded or injured according to this.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: [Previous translation continues] ...

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Is that what it was? I think one

15 person.

16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. No. It says: "There are some wounded. I have some wounded

18 persons."

19 A. Is there a number in brackets?

20 Q. No. Grey 0 means "I have some wounded."

21 A. That's one in the telegram.

22 Q. I suppose then it's one person. Could we go back to the

23 telegram? It would be of assistance?

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. I thought you were going to take us back

25 once you'd done this.

Page 24868

1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. Oh, sorry. It's still

2 not there. 5D1417 [as interpreted].

3 JUDGE BONOMY: No, it's 5D1418, I think.

4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] That's what I said, 1418.

5 Next page, please. Yes.

6 Q. Mr. Zivaljevic, you said it was an exclusively humanitarian

7 action. What does this mean? If we described Grey 0. What does it mean

8 "We had several resistance points"?

9 A. I have to explain one thing here. At one point we had a movement

10 of refugees from Podujevo, and columns of people of 30.000 plus citizens,

11 and we were looking for options how to react to persuade these people to

12 go back to their homes and guarantee their safety. Prior to that we had

13 talks with the municipality and with the army and tried to reach an

14 agreement, but on the ground something unexpected happened. When we saw

15 the refugees coming down from hills, we noticed in front of --

16 JUDGE BONOMY: None of this is essential for the point that

17 counsel to trying to make. Mr. Ivetic may want to explore it further

18 with you in due course. We just want you to make it clear to us what

19 this says about wounded.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's precisely what I meant to

21 explain.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: [Previous translation continues] ... was there

23 more than one wounded. That's the only question.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just one sentence if you allow me.

25 In front of the refugees there was a unit of Siptar terrorists

Page 24869

1 and one behind, and we could not safely approach the refugees to talk to

2 them. We used people who knew --

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Zivaljevic, tell us whether this document

4 refers to one wounded or more than one wounded.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] According to this document I see

6 one wounded. In brackets it says: "One not so seriously."

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. That's all the question was about.

8 Mr. Bakrac.

9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. My next question is: What does it mean: "Positions taken up 86

11 and 109"?

12 A. I don't know them. I don't have the map.

13 Q. Not on the map. Just explain to us in simple terms 87, 86, 109

14 positions taken up.

15 A. Those are the positions where our units are located.

16 Q. "Taken up" what do you mean?

17 A. When we get there and we take up these positions, those are

18 positions taken up.

19 Q. And what do these numbers mean?

20 A. These are numbers on the map, markings. When you draw the

21 mean --

22 Q. That means the MUP staff to which you sent this dispatch has the

23 same map as you do in order to be able to follow the numbers?

24 A. Please, not infrequently --

25 Q. It's a simple question in order to be able to follow these

Page 24870

1 numbers about positions taken up the MUP staff receiving your dispatch

2 had to have a map?

3 A. It was through the MUP staff that we frequently received maps.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bakrac 5D1427 is untranslated. Is that --

5 what's the reason for that?

6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I cannot say now which

7 is 5D1427.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: [Previous translation continues] ... for 1998.

9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I can verify, Your Honour, with my

10 assistant. I believe it was submitted for translation because it has

11 already been used with one other witness. My colleague Mr. Cepic -- that

12 witness, I believe it was witness Mijatovic but I'm not sure. I suppose

13 it was submitted for translation back then, but I'm not sure.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic is challenging its authenticity or are

15 you not, Mr. Ivetic? Sorry.

16 MR. IVETIC: No, Your Honour. I challenge its applicability to

17 the time period based on earlier, but if I could assist.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: It's my inaccurate recollection of your challenge.

19 MR. IVETIC: If I can assist as I believe a review of the trial

20 transcript will reveal, when this was used previously I intervened to

21 advise that it has a P number, a P exhibit, and a translation. I don't

22 have that information at hand, but I do recall the circumstances of that

23 exhibit being tendered and I believe it was through the Witness Deretic

24 rather than Mijatovic although it might have been used with as well.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: It was reference to a temporary -- I'm sorry I had

Page 24871

1 some notion in my head that you'd referred to as a draft, but it was

2 temporary, which clarifies it. I'm sorry.

3 MR. IVETIC: [Overlapping speakers]

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bakrac.

5 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour if I may what Mr. Ivetic says rings a

6 bell. I believe it's P1071, and there is an English translation.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: That's very helpful. No point in duplicating

8 translation, Mr. Bakrac. So after today would you please check the

9 position and if there is a translation available make sure that you don't

10 take up time with another one and use the one that's translated in

11 future. Please continue.

12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Mr. Zivaljevic, here in the telegram you stated there were around

14 150 fighting men. Did you mean the fighting men of the KLA?

15 A. Yes. The fighting men of the KLA who followed the refugees,

16 which means they accompanied them, moved along with them in an organised

17 manner.

18 Q. So you requested further instructions concerning these columns of

19 refugees, and you even requested points, I suppose encrypted points,

20 where they settled down.

21 A. I believe so. But if I may add one thing --

22 Q. No. I asked you, did you request further instructions?

23 A. I suppose I asked for an opinion.

24 Q. No, no, no. Let's stop here. Could you please read the last

25 sentence.

Page 24872

1 A. You're right. Request further instructions. And I believe I

2 asked them to indicate locations where we could put up the refugees

3 because they wouldn't turn back.

4 Q. Since Mr. Ivetic let you read some handwriting, could you try

5 again with some handwritten comments. What's written, for instance, in

6 the right upper corner in Cyrillic?

7 A. On this document? Arsa.

8 Q. Let me stop you. Can you help us? Who is Arsa?

9 A. I believe Arsa was an officer who was helping out at the staff.

10 Q. Last name?

11 A. If that's the one I mean, it's Arsenijevic.

12 Q. Could you go on?

13 A. General Lukic, for information and decision.

14 Q. Do you recognise the signature?

15 A. No, I don't know whose signature this is. Maybe you can help me,

16 but I can't recognise it.

17 Q. Does it look like the signature of the Deputy Mijatovic?

18 A. There is a letter M here, but I don't know his signature.

19 Q. All right. There was a Colonel Mijatovic -- or, rather,

20 Mr. Mijatovic who was here, and he explained it. I was just asking if

21 you were familiar with his signature.

22 A. No.

23 Q. Could we now turn one page back. Can you tell us what this is?

24 A. It's a reply from the staff saying they agree that the refugees

25 go back to a safe place and they be put up -- I don't know if it was

Page 24873

1 specified here where. We were in contact with the refugees, you know,

2 and we sent out people who -- all right. All right. I won't.

3 Q. "Militarily able persons to be taken into custody and turn over

4 to the nearby secretariat."

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Mr. Zivaljevic, concerning elevations where you would put up

7 these people and what to do with the militarily able men, you asked for

8 the staff's decision, didn't you?

9 A. In part that would be true, because in the municipality, the

10 decision-making process about what to do with these people was already

11 under way, and the municipality could decide what to do with them.

12 Q. And this is an instruction what to do with militarily able men.

13 A. That's regular police work.

14 Q. Are you trying to say that for things like this you asked for

15 approval and instructions what to do, whereas for performing combat

16 operations with the army of Yugoslavia you acted on plans and whatever

17 the brigade commander ordered you on the ground?

18 A. You have to understand one thing. It was a humanitarian activity

19 that required the involvement of a number of participants and it was a

20 serious problem with the movement of population.

21 Q. We see here that you had combat activities, one person wounded.

22 You provided the positions taken up. You had 150 fighting men against

23 you, and you're telling me it's not a combat activity.

24 A. If you give me two minutes I'll explain, with your permission.

25 We were facing a problem, how to approach these civilians. Siptar

Page 24874

1 terrorists opened fire on us. We did not respond lest we hurt the

2 civilians, but we used people who wielded some authority from the SUP

3 Podujevo and people from that municipality, locals who knew the language.

4 We sent them to talk to the refugees to try to persuade them to go back.

5 We couldn't talk to them directly they didn't know us. They saw us in a

6 completely different light, but we used these go-betweens to try to

7 persuade them to go home.

8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, perhaps this is a

9 convenient moment.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Were the 150 able-bodied men taken into custody?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no. We do not reach them.

12 They either dispersed or laid down their arms and joined the mass of

13 people. It's very inhospitable area. I was watching all that from a

14 distance of a height of about 400 metres. Fire was opened on us and we

15 were not able to get anywhere near them.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you help us with timing, Mr. Bakrac?

17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I will use the break to try to

18 abbreviate my cross. I hope it won't take more than another 15 or 20

19 minutes.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

21 Mr. Hannis, prospects of completing the witness today or none?

22 MR. HANNIS: They're growing dimmer, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Well, we have to break for lunch at

24 this point, Mr. Zivaljevic. Could you again please leave the courtroom

25 with the usher, and we will see you again at 1.45.

Page 24875

1 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.46 p.m.

2 --- On resuming at 1.45 p.m.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bakrac.

4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Q. Good afternoon again, Mr. Zivaljevic, before we went on the break

6 we looked at the document which had a list of code signs of MUP. Did you

7 know that the army of Yugoslavia used quite a different type of documents

8 for conveying information which is known under the acronym TKT or secret

9 command of troops and that it has nothing to do with the code list that

10 we looked at?

11 A. Well, I can't tell you anything about that. I don't know

12 anything about military code lists. I never used them.

13 Q. All right. So that's what I was interested in. You did not use

14 military list of code signs.

15 Now, could we -- could we look at 6D709, which is the order for

16 Palatna. Mr. Ivetic showed you that order. Could we now see page 1. Do

17 you have a hard copy with you? All right. Then let us turn to the last

18 page of this document. Could we now see the last page, please, page 5 in

19 B/C/S.

20 You saw item 13 command and signals. Would you please read this,

21 the third paragraph commences with the words --

22 A. "When carrying out combat operations, maintain radio and

23 telephone communications with the Pristina Corps command on channel 48 SD

24 reserve channel 51 SD and within the brigades and battalions maintain

25 radio communications using the simplex channel, channel 15 for

Page 24876

1 211th Armoured Brigade and channel 17 for 354th."

2 Q. Thank you, Mr. Zivaljevic. Do you recognise any MUP units here

3 or any channels used by MUP?

4 A. No. I do not recognise the units. As for channels, I can't

5 remember. I can't be certain. I don't think these are police channels.

6 I'm not sure about that, but I definitely do not recognise these units.

7 Q. Thank you, Mr. Zivaljevic.

8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours. We were

9 just checking the transcript.

10 Q. Mr. Zivaljevic, please look at item 14 now. Reports to be

11 forwarded, and then it says "Regular reports on readiness to launch

12 attacks and daily reports by 1800 hours reporting the situation at 1700

13 hours."

14 Did you have any duty to report pursuant to this order where it

15 says reports to be forwarded?

16 A. I don't know whether this pertained to the military command

17 within the brigade that was on the ground or within the Pristina Corps,

18 but this is their document and they have their own deadlines for the

19 reporting which did not correspond with ours. We were on the ground

20 together, and they reported to their command.

21 Q. That's exactly what I wanted to ask you. You said, if I'm not

22 mistaken, that Nikolic informed you about this action, about this

23 situation on the ground, and that you reported further on.

24 A. No, no, no. This is not the same action. This is another

25 action.

Page 24877

1 Q. My mistake then. So did you report further on about this

2 particular action that I just put to you?

3 A. Let me tell you, I had several people who were specially trained

4 for the communications system within my unit, and we had our own relays

5 which were targeted on a daily basis. I had to change seven or eight

6 relays because they had been hit by NATO and were marked as a target, so

7 I had problems. Very often I had no communication at all except the

8 simplex lines within unit. For example, we had several stations within

9 the company.

10 Q. I'm interested in this: Your subordinated units report to you.

11 Who do you report to further on?

12 A. If possible, my companies would report me during the day whenever

13 they could. If not, we would meet in the afternoon. Usually I did not

14 inform anyone or report to anyone.

15 Q. You didn't report to anyone?

16 A. Except in some urgent situations where people needed medical

17 assistance. They needed to be taken care of or their families needed to

18 be notified when somebody was killed. It is then that there was a need

19 to have somebody go across the border and then use a telephone line there

20 or have somebody go to Pristina and then make a phone call from there,

21 but those were difficult circumstances because it wasn't safe to move

22 about.

23 Q. And who did you report to then?

24 A. Well, we would either inform the families or provide medical

25 assistance, dependent on the situation if a person was gravely wounded,

Page 24878

1 we needed to take care of that person or sometimes if somebody was killed

2 we had to notify the family to take over the body.

3 Q. So you did not inform the military command about that either;

4 right? You did not report to them?

5 A. No, no, no. Military command had its own chain of reporting and

6 we did our work.

7 Q. Would you now read paragraph 14, item 14 of this same document.

8 It seems to me that something was either mistranslated or not translated

9 at all. Would you please read this sentence slowly.

10 A. "Joint action between elements of combat disposition in the

11 course of planning, organising, preparation, and carrying out of combat

12 activities in the sector of the village of Palatna shall be organised by

13 the command of the 211th Armoured Brigade which is in charge of planning,

14 organising, and carrying out combat activities.

15 Q. Do you agree with me that this paragraph here talks about joint

16 action?

17 A. I do not challenge that.

18 Q. Would you agree with me then since this is a military document

19 the command of the 211th Armoured Brigade shall be in charge of planning,

20 organising, and carrying out combat activities in relation to their own

21 units?

22 A. I had to adapt my activities to these plans. I did not have

23 other plans. I acted in accordance with these orders and plans. I had

24 no other plans.

25 Q. All right. Now that we're dealing with these plans, could we now

Page 24879

1 see P1990. And this has something to do about the topic that we covered

2 at the beginning of our cross-examination, which is your arrival in the

3 territory of Podujevo and three major actions. You said that when you

4 came there you found maps and orders of the command.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. This is minutes of a meeting of the Pristina MUP staff held on

7 the 17th of February, 1999. Are you familiar with this document?

8 A. Yes, I've read it before.

9 Q. Now, please look lines 5 and 6 from the bottom. It begins with

10 the words "The plan of RJB was developed." Would you please read to the

11 end of it.

12 A. Would you please help me find it? Where is it?

13 Q. It is line seven from the bottom. It begins the words "A plan --

14 the plan of the RJB was developed."

15 A. RJB stands for public security sector in order to prevent and

16 disallow the entrance of military forces of NATO into our area.

17 Q. Please read on.

18 A. "Once that is ordered, the -- the staff plan to carry out three

19 actions of sweeping the terrain or -- from terrorists in the sectors of

20 Podujevo, Dragobilje, and Drenica, and for that forces consisting --

21 police forces consisting of 4.000 members, about 70 policemen from OPG

22 and about 900 persons from reserve forces have been prepared."

23 Q. Mr. Zivaljevic, now that you've read this, do you still claim

24 that you received the corps plans -- oh, no. First tell me, is Podujevo

25 an area where you were located with your intervention brigade?

Page 24880

1 A. Yes, that's correct.

2 Q. These actions, are these those that you spoke of when you said

3 that the plans awaited you when you arrived?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And you didn't know that the staff planned to carry out these

6 actions, and you didn't know the details about the strength and so on?

7 You saw this for the first time here?

8 A. Listen, this is the plan of the public security sector.

9 Q. No, no, no. The staff planned to carry out these three actions

10 of sweeping the terrain from terrorists and so on.

11 A. Well, that's why I'm mentioning the public security sector. The

12 staff is answerable, is responsible to the public security sector.

13 Q. I understand that, but does it say here that the staff planned to

14 carry out these actions? Would you please read it out again and tell me

15 whether it says so.

16 A. Well, I'm interpreting it. I'm interpreting the text. It says

17 here that the staff planned to carry out actions.

18 Q. Did you see this plan drafted by the staff?

19 A. No, I didn't.

20 MR. IVETIC: I have to object to the last question since it

21 misstates the evidence. It misstates this exhibit, in fact, and I think

22 that's clear from the way that if you look at line number -- there's no

23 mention of a plan. It says plan to carry out. There's a difference

24 there. Semantic difference but if we're going to be asking very precise

25 questions we have to be careful that the precise questions precisely

Page 24881

1 state what the documents that are presented are supposed to say and for

2 that matter I don't believe we have any evidence that this witness was at

3 this meeting.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: That's are all matters for submission in due

5 course, and if you wish to ask questions about it in re-examination, then

6 that would be appropriate, but please continue, Mr. Bakrac.

7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

8 Q. Mr. Zivaljevic, now let us turn to a different document which

9 also represent minutes from a meeting with senior police officers in

10 Kosovo and Metohija, dated 4th of April, 1999. This is P1989. It seems

11 we have the wrong document. P1989, please. This is the OTP Exhibit

12 1989.

13 Are you familiar with these minutes or do you know about this

14 meeting? Did you attend it?

15 A. I think I did attend it, the meeting.

16 Q. Do you remember whether you spoke at the meeting?

17 A. Could I see the following pages? I think that this is the

18 meeting that the gentleman asked me about in relation to Sainovic.

19 Q. Could we see the following page, please. Or, rather, page 3, the

20 following one. 260. We have the right page in English, and we have the

21 B/C/S page as well.

22 Dragan Zivaljevic, commander of the 22nd Detachment of PJP.

23 That's you.

24 A. Correct.

25 Q. Here you briefed and said that the task has been fully completed

Page 24882

1 than the territory's under control. What did you have in mind?

2 A. Most likely the activities that I carried out in accordance with

3 the plan. This is the 4th of April. If I could orient myself time-wise,

4 that means that we were in that area near Podujevo, in that territory.

5 Q. Thank you, Mr. Zivaljevic. Could we now please look at the next

6 document. Record of the meeting held at the MUP staff, dated the 7th of

7 May. P1996. Page 9, please. Page 9.

8 Could you read point 2, anti-terrorist actions. Obrad Stevanovic

9 is speaking at this point, assistant minister. Could you please read

10 that paragraph number 2 out to us.

11 A. You're asking me about paragraph 2; right?

12 Q. Yes.

13 A. "Anti-terrorist actions." I don't have the text any more.

14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the B/C/S version has

15 disappeared. Ah, yes, here it is again.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you could please zoom?

17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Is it all right now?

19 A. Yes, in part. Anti-terrorist actions in some areas progress

20 slowly and with great difficulty. After the end of some of the larger

21 scale actions such as Budakovo, Jezerce every SUP was expected to work

22 independently on organising anti-terrorist actions in their respective

23 areas. The plan has to be approved by the staff, and it will be carried

24 out with manoeuvre detachments.

25 Q. Does this jog your memory regarding the planning of

Page 24883

1 anti-terrorist actions, how and where anti-terrorist actions were

2 planned?

3 A. I'm not sure that I personally attended that meeting. However, I

4 said that when we do not have a particular plan the SUPs partly did some

5 work in the sense of --

6 Q. No, sir. You said certain work that was not anti-terrorist

7 activity. That is why I asked you to read it from the very outset,

8 anti-terrorist actions. That is this item on the agenda. So this

9 pertains to anti-terrorist actions; right?

10 A. Please, can I just answer this question by giving an example? If

11 a group of two or three or five or -- men break into an area, a built-up

12 area, it can be anti-terrorist activity or it can be criminal activity or

13 rather it can be terrorist activity or criminal activity. You know what

14 I mean. I cannot draw a line of distinction exactly what terrorism is

15 and what crime is; so when there were larger actions involved, we worked

16 in that larger scale way, but when there were separate actions involved

17 it was the is SUPs that were doing that.

18 Q. Before the break what you said to me was you were not involved in

19 any kind of independent anti-terrorist actions, now you say that you did?

20 A. No, no. I said that we worked in accordance with the documents

21 that we received. When there was no such activity we helped the SUPs or

22 OUPs in some smaller-scale actions that had to do with resolving crime.

23 Q. Not anti-terrorist action?

24 A. Well, let me tell you, if an armed group enters a settlement,

25 perhaps they can engage in looting or arson, well, let me tell you, it

Page 24884

1 can belong to the category of crime and the category of terrorism so I

2 cannot distinguish between the two what kind this is.

3 Q. Thank you. 5D1329. Could we please have that called up. While

4 we're waiting for that, Mr. Zivaljevic this is the map that my colleague

5 Mr. Ivetic showed you.

6 MR. IVETIC: Before we get to that document I hate to interrupt

7 but we have a transcript issue that I want to clear up before Mr. Bakrac

8 gets to his actual question. Page 9, line 8, I believe it says -- in the

9 transcript it says cannot distinguish between the two what kind this is,

10 I believe the witness says both are police work. I don't know how it

11 came through on the English feed we can have that checked via the tape.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: That's okay. Thank you.

13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Mr. Zivaljevic, you have commented on this map when talking to

15 Mr. Ivetic. I think that you said that you were familiar with this map,

16 the decision for Bajgora.

17 A. Yes, I said it was familiar to me but I did not agree with some

18 of the details marked on this map. I don't understand some things here I

19 recognise the settlement, and I recognise the units on the right-hand

20 side of the map but on the left-hand side it is completely unknown to me

21 and something seems wrong.

22 Q. Tell me, can you indicate to us where the 122nd Intervention

23 Brigade of the PJP was?

24 A. If it can be zoomed in.

25 Q. Could the lower part please be zoomed in.

Page 24885

1 A. [In English] Okay. Okay. [Interpretation] The 122nd in the

2 right-hand corner, this is what I'm marking now. And you can see that

3 there are two companies of the 122nd Brigade. That is my interpretation

4 now. Then the 211th is up there, and then the 354th is down below, and

5 the 122nd is here in this area.

6 Q. Were you at these positions?

7 A. Yes, I was.

8 Q. Tell me now --

9 A. Or approximately there. Approximately.

10 Q. So you allow for the possibility that you were not precisely in

11 those positions; right?

12 A. Well, I cannot say with reliability that I was at that particular

13 point, but perhaps I was in the vicinity. I was probably with the

14 commander of the 211th.

15 Q. Tell me now, when we look at the middle you see the 58th LPBR and

16 it says ODPLP.

17 A. I cannot give any comments on that. This is completely unknown

18 to me and this map is unknown to me.

19 Q. That will do, Mr. Zivaljevic, as far as I'm concerned. Thank

20 you.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Do you want an IC number for this?

22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, Your Honour. I do

23 apologise. However, I don't know what the next IC number is.

24 THE REGISTRAR: That will be IC 191, Your Honours.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

Page 24886

1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I'm

2 bringing this to an end. This took a bit longer than I had promised.

3 Q. Mr. Zivaljevic, could you please be so kind as to tell me, the

4 members of your detachment wore what kind of uniforms?

5 A. Well, it depended on the period, the time period in which they

6 took part. As far as I can remember, in the period of 1998, for the most

7 part they wore camouflage uniforms for urban action, that is, the grey

8 blue camouflage. Towards the end of that year when these uniforms could

9 be issued, then green camouflage uniforms were issued. These were

10 uniforms that were used subsequently, after that, in 1999.

11 Q. So you had grey camouflage as well?

12 A. Before that, before 1999. Sometime up until the autumn. I

13 cannot say with any certainty, but it was grey camouflage uniforms.

14 Q. Mr. Zivaljevic, these were all the questions that I had. Thank

15 you very much indeed.

16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, for the

17 time given me. I have no further questions.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Bakrac.

19 Mr. Zivaljevic, you will now be cross-examined by the Prosecutor,

20 Mr. Hannis.

21 Mr. Hannis.

22 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Cross-examination by Mr. Hannis:

24 Q. Good afternoon, sir.

25 A. [No interpretation]

Page 24887

1 Q. Did you -- did you hold a rank in the MUP in 1998 and 1999?

2 A. Yes. I had the rank of lieutenant colonel, and after that, the

3 rank of colonel.

4 Q. Okay. And I understood from your statement that you have

5 retired. Is that correct?

6 A. That's correct. That is correct.

7 Q. When did you retire?

8 A. A few months before the new year, that is to say towards the end

9 of last year.

10 Q. One of the first things I wanted to ask you about is

11 Exhibit 6D291, which is the dispatch dated 21 March 1999 from

12 General Djordjevic. I don't know if you can see it on your screen. You

13 say this was the dispatch that sent you to Kosovo in 1999; correct?

14 A. Fine. Now I'm going to interpret it. On the 21st of March,

15 that's right, in order to carry out special security-related tasks in the

16 area of Kosovo and Metohija. That's right. That's the dispatch that was

17 decisive in terms of my going to Kosovo.

18 Q. Okay. On the second page of that document, if we could go to the

19 next page if both B/C/S and English, I have a question about the last

20 paragraph. My English translation says: "The ministry PJP command is to

21 be informed by dispatch of the time of departure, march route, number of

22 employees, et cetera."

23 At that time, sir, who did you understand the ministry PJP

24 command to be? What person would that be or what people would that be in

25 the ministry that was to be informed?

Page 24888

1 A. My understanding is that within the ministry there is a police

2 administration, and within the police administration there is a

3 department for PJP that took care of equipment and sending people out on

4 mission. I believe that this dispatch means that this department within

5 the administration should take care of that.

6 Q. Okay. But you don't know the names of any of the people in that

7 PJP command?

8 A. Believe me, it's been a long time. I don't know who worked there

9 then. These were personnel who took care of preparations, buses,

10 equipment perhaps, et cetera.

11 Q. Well, weren't you as -- as a commander of one of the detachments

12 being dispatched to Kosovo? Wouldn't you be one of the persons

13 responsible for complying with this requirement to inform the PJP command

14 about the time of departure, et cetera?

15 A. You see, there are some details in dispatch, and I get my task as

16 a commander to get my unit together and to take them there to the

17 location that was envisaged, and they take care about the way in which

18 this will be done, how they will be sent, and probably in due time they

19 report whether everything went as it should, if that is an answer to your

20 question.

21 Q. Well, I'm not sure it is. If we could go back to the first page

22 for you. I mean, this dispatch is addressed to the SUP chiefs and to the

23 commanders of the various detachments that are affected by it and to the

24 Pristina MUP head of staff. So the way I would read that it seems like

25 you as commander of one of those detachments should be reporting, or am I

Page 24889

1 mistaken? Were you a higher level commander then, the commander of the

2 21st or 22nd detachment?

3 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic.

5 MR. IVETIC: Again multiple questions, and if Mr. Hannis is going

6 to interject his speculation on how he reads documents, I don't think

7 that's proper to have the witness be confronted with that and multiple

8 questions and having to answer. If he breaks it down maybe he can avoid

9 that, but I don't know.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: The sum and substance of this is one question, so

11 please proceed, Mr. Hannis.


13 Q. Colonel, did you need me to ask you that question again?

14 A. Can I answer part of your question now and then if you have more

15 questions -- you see, I worked at the Belgrade SUP. I was chief of a

16 department there within the police administration of the Belgrade SUP.

17 My immediate superior was the chief of SUP of all of Belgrade, and he has

18 the possibility with regard to this dispatch that is being sent from the

19 public security sector and to say to me, "Mr. Zivaljevic, you have to go

20 out on a trip and to take such-and-such a unit there," and I act on those

21 orders. So it is the chief of the SUP of Belgrade who sends me out on

22 mission. And there are some people there who carry out preparations for

23 this sending, and they come from this PJP department.

24 Q. Okay.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: And are they the ones who have to report when

Page 24890

1 you -- when you leave, and the number of employees and so on? I think

2 that was Mr. Hannis's question.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll try to answer this part of the

4 question as well. In order to go out on mission, it is important to

5 carry out preparations starting with equipment, buses, the sending off of

6 the unit and the unit's arrival on the spot. After that, officers who

7 escorted us on this trip go back to Belgrade on these buses with the

8 exception of what stays in Kosovo, and I assume that they report further

9 whether this task of sending us out was carried out properly or not. If

10 that would do.


12 Q. Thank you. Am I correct then where it lists the commanders of

13 the various detachments, is it correct that the 21st and 22nd PJP

14 Detachments were -- were from Belgrade?

15 A. That's right. That is true.

16 Q. And the 23rd was from Novi Sad?

17 A. That's right.

18 Q. Then the 35th, 36th and 37th were from Uzice, Kragujevac and Nis

19 in that order?

20 A. That's right.

21 Q. Thank you. Now, this wasn't the first time that you had been

22 sent to Kosovo with the PJP, was it? I think I understood you to say in

23 your testimony that you had gone in January of 1999 as well; is that

24 right?

25 A. That's right. In January 1999, I was in Decani.

Page 24891

1 Q. And did you get a similar kind of dispatch for that assignment?

2 A. A dispatch came always, for every task, except at that time I

3 didn't go to combat missions. I went to other types of missions.

4 Q. And do you -- do you have a copy of that dispatch for your

5 January 1999 tasking or assignment?

6 A. No. Allow me a short explanation. That mission has to do with

7 protecting religious and other buildings, Visoki, Decani and other

8 monasteries and securing those areas. I was in only one of the shifts.

9 Before me a number of shifts had rotated. We had a good cooperation

10 there and even two gentlemen from the OSCE were wounded in the area

11 during my stint.

12 Q. Prior to January 1999, did you get sent to Kosovo with the PJP in

13 1998?

14 A. Right. I was there in 1998 as well, but back then I was

15 commander of the B variant protecting the territory. I was not

16 commanding the units mentioned in this dispatch.

17 Q. Okay. And when was the first time you went to Kosovo in 1998

18 with -- with a B detachment, a variant B detachment?

19 A. I think it was in early July 1998.

20 Q. And how long did you stay that time?

21 A. Two, two and a half months, I think. I can't be precise. I

22 suppose until September.

23 Q. Okay. And after that you returned to Belgrade?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And you didn't come back to Kosovo until January of 1999; is that

Page 24892

1 right?

2 A. Correct. In early January I came back to Kosovo.

3 Q. Okay. And during those two and a half months, from July 1998

4 what were you doing with your B detachment? Where were you during that

5 time, if you remember?

6 A. Yes. I remember that. It was the territory of Klina. We had

7 problems with roads. The main road Pristina-Pec was constantly under

8 blockade. It was not usable. And our organisational task was to keep it

9 open so that this main road linking to major towns in Kosovo could be

10 used.

11 Q. And during that time did your unit not engage in any combat

12 activities against the terrorists?

13 A. Yes, but those were minor combat activities.

14 Q. What you've described to us before, I think, that these were not

15 actions that were the joint actions with the VJ. These were more

16 responses to provocations when you were fired upon?

17 A. It was a general rule that the police need not open fire on

18 anyone who did not open fire on them first, but we frequently encountered

19 situations that were problematic, where the police would not move on the

20 road, citizens could not move on the road. There were blockades,

21 ambushes.

22 Q. But in 1998 when you were there, you take it you and your unit

23 did not participant in any of these joint anti-terrorist actions that

24 were part of the -- the plan for combatting terrorism in the summer of

25 1998; is that right?

Page 24893

1 A. Just one detail. On the road between Pristina and Pec there is a

2 village called Kijevo. It was constantly under blockade by Siptar

3 terrorists. So in one period we left behind one unit that couldn't

4 manage to get out of that village for over a month. At that time we

5 initiated some activities to move along the road to give them supplies

6 and medication. There were all sorts of situations there, women about to

7 give birth, people who were in a difficult state, but we -- for that

8 purpose we initiated an action to create a narrow path to provide them

9 with these supplies, and afterwards with the police we tried to secure

10 that route towards Kijevo to be able to supply them.

11 Q. And wasn't that action to provide some relief towards Kijevo?

12 Wasn't that a joint action with the VJ? Didn't you have some support

13 from the VJ in connection with that action?

14 A. Yes, we did have support, but we just participated in that

15 action.

16 Q. Okay. Which VJ unit or units were supporting you in connection

17 with that Kijevo action?

18 A. I cannot say anything specific now, but I know they were from the

19 town of Pec, and from that direction I was active together with them.

20 Q. And do you remember the name of the commander or any VJ personnel

21 that you cooperated with regarding Kijevo?

22 A. I believe his last name was Jankovic, but I can't be perfectly

23 sure.

24 Q. Do you recall his rank?

25 A. I think he was then lieutenant colonel.

Page 24894

1 Q. Okay. And your detachment in Kosovo in -- between July and the

2 end of September 1998, what was it called? What number or unit

3 identifier did it have? Was that the 22nd, or was it just called the

4 Belgrade detachment, or did you have a designator at that time?

5 A. I think there is a little confusion here, because the numbers

6 changed and the name changed. At that time it was called Belgrade, the

7 detachment, and they had the marking B variant when they were guarding

8 the territory. Only later were the 21st and the 22nd Detachment formed.

9 So in total, later when these two detachments were taken together they

10 created 122nd Intervention Unit, and sometimes by mistake people said

11 121st and 122nd Detachment, but this confusion was used in informal

12 communication, not officially.

13 Q. Okay. We had another witness earlier named Ilic. I think

14 Vladimir Ilic, who was a PJP member. Do you know him?

15 A. Certainly.

16 Q. And -- well, I had the same sort of conversation with him trying

17 to figure out what the number was and he said the same sort of thing that

18 you did, that the numbers changed and it was somewhat confusing. Were

19 you the -- were you the commander of this B variant unit then in Kosovo

20 in July and August of 1998?

21 A. Correct. I was the commander, but we had also a commander who

22 was from SUP Belgrade at the time, Ivan Maksimovic. Vladimir Ilic

23 probably explained that to you as well. And in 1998, in the autumn that

24 changed. Ivan Maksimovic was going to Belgrade. I stayed behind, and we

25 had a transition of duties that did not last long.

Page 24895

1 Q. Okay. Approximately when did that happen that you had the

2 transition of duties with Maksimovic?

3 A. Early in autumn 1998. That's when the 21st and 22nd Detachment

4 were formed. The commander of the 21st Detachment became Bosko Buha, and

5 Vladimir Ilic was his deputy. I became commander of the 22nd Detachment,

6 and my deputy was Dragan Nikolic.

7 In 1999 these two detachments combined to form 122nd Intervention

8 Brigade, but only on paper, because we always acted separately.

9 Q. Approximately when was the 122nd Intervention Brigade created on

10 paper in 1999?

11 A. Early in 1999. And then I was appointed commander, and Bosko

12 Buha became deputy commander of the 122nd. But the detachments that I

13 described before were the founding blocks of that brigade.

14 Q. Let me go back to summer and early autumn 1998 in Kosovo. When

15 your commander of the B variant detachment, I understand from other

16 evidence that the B detachments were seen as territorial units as opposed

17 to manoeuvre units. Is that accurate?

18 A. Correct. With the proviso that as time went on, that unit

19 consisting of Belgrade policemen who were not trained for these

20 activities, started to gradually fit in and sometimes even participated

21 together with other detachments in certain activities.

22 Q. Okay. At the time you were there as a B variant detachment in

23 July, August 1998. Was there another PJP detachment from Belgrade in

24 Kosovo that was a more of a manoeuvre unit, a manoeuvre detachment, an A

25 detachment?

Page 24896

1 A. Correct. We had one detachment which later in this version was

2 split into several parts. It was the pivot. In Belgrade we had A police

3 brigade that was trained for basically an anti-riot unit, crowd control,

4 and that unit came to Kosovo and took over these activities.

5 Q. Okay. This -- this Belgrade a detachment in 1998, who was the

6 commander of that?

7 A. Several commanders had rotated, but it's all perfectly open and

8 clear. In the end Bosko Buha became the commander of that detachment

9 we're talking about. In the meantime, there had been two other

10 commanders that turned up -- turned out not to be quite not up to snuff.

11 Q. Do you remember their names and when they were in that position?

12 A. At one point Dragan Milovanovic was in that position. He was

13 there very briefly, then another one after him, followed by

14 Ivan Maksimovic who combined these detachments, because we had the

15 territorial and manoeuvre segments. And finally Bosko Buha and I took

16 over, and from that time on it stabilised a little.

17 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... who served in that position

18 between Dragan Milovanovic and Ivan Maksimovic?

19 A. Stojan Petkovic preceded them, late Stojan Petkovic. And after

20 that --

21 Q. You -- you mentioned that there had been a couple of commanders

22 who weren't quite up to snuff. I take it that is referring to Petkovic

23 and Milanovic. What kind of problems did they have?

24 A. Stojan Petkovic worked for a long time, had health problems, went

25 to Belgrade, and there were some organisational problems, and he was not

Page 24897

1 quite qualified in these military matters. I don't want to say any more

2 about him sitting here. Anyway, he had to go to Belgrade and ...

3 Q. And -- and what about Milovanovic? What kind of problems did he

4 have?

5 A. Well, in my personal opinion, I don't think he found his right

6 place in that situation when tensions were heightened. There was a lot

7 of police force that needed to be organised.

8 Q. Okay.

9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, sorry to interrupt my

10 learned friend Mr. Hannis, but for the record the witness said that he

11 was not qualified in these military matters, and that's the reason why,

12 for the most part, they engaged deputies who graduated from military

13 academies. This last bit had not been recorded.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bakrac.

15 Mr. Hannis.

16 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

17 Q. When did you first go to Kosovo in July 1998? Do you recall

18 approximately what the date was?

19 A. Well, I cannot be quite sure now, but I believe it was around the

20 1st of July or around the 30th of June. I can be two days off.

21 Q. Let me show you a document. I can hand you a hard copy with the

22 usher's help. This is dated the 22nd of July, 1998. It's Exhibit 6D798,

23 and it purports to be the minutes of a meeting head on that date at the

24 Pristina MUP conference hall.

25 It says all commanders of the PJP detachments attended, as well

Page 24898

1 as General Lukic, General Djordjevic, General Obrad Stevanovic,

2 Goran Radosavljevic and organisation. Do you recall this meeting?

3 A. I attended one meeting. I'm not quite sure whether this is the

4 one, but if you help me a little at any rate I will tell you the truth.

5 I did attend one meeting.

6 Q. Well, this one would have been about three weeks after your

7 arrival and it's in Pristina with those persons I named, and you'll see

8 on the agenda item number 3 talks about defining task in the

9 implementation of the -- and I may need some help from my friends across

10 the way because my English translation says "global plan," but I know

11 we've had some discussion about that translation.

12 Can you read item number 3 for us on the agenda?

13 A. "Identifying tasks related to the implementation of the overall

14 plan and the follow-up task." Related to the answer to this question, at

15 that time, Ivan Maksimovic was my superior, and it's most likely that he

16 attended the meeting, not I. And when he came back, he must have briefed

17 us about what had gone on in the meeting.

18 Q. So you can't tell us for sure whether or not you attended this

19 meeting. Is that -- is that fair?

20 A. I'm sorry, but no, I can't.

21 Q. Okay. In paragraph 11 of your statement, Exhibit 6D1606, you

22 say:

23 "At the beginning of 1998 the security situation in Kosovo became

24 more complex and the terrorism escalated. In relation to this, I know

25 that a general plan for combat against terrorism in Kosovo and Metohija

Page 24899

1 was adopted at the highest state level."

2 Now, how did you know about that plan being adopted at the

3 highest state level? How did you first hear about it?

4 A. Please, I heard that from Ivan Maksimovic who was at the meeting.

5 With us, the inner circle, he had a meeting, and he passed on the

6 information and the details.

7 Q. And when you say at this highest state level, what did you mean

8 by that, or what did Maksimovic tell you about that? Who does that refer

9 to, if you know?

10 A. I suppose the state leadership, the top state leadership, but I'm

11 not sure. I had no reason to doubt the veracity of what my superior said

12 at the time.

13 Q. I want to show you now another exhibit from that summer of 1998.

14 This is Exhibit 6D768. It's dated the 7th of August. And I can hand you

15 a hard copy of this one as well. It's from Sreten Lukic as head of staff

16 to the SUP chiefs and commander of PJP. Did you see this document in

17 1998 or do you recall?

18 A. Give me a minute.

19 Q. Sure. Take your time.

20 A. I think I have seen this document.

21 Q. And did you see it back in 1998 when you were in Kosovo in

22 August?

23 A. Probably. That was when the thing was topical and we were all

24 informed about those documents that we could -- and it relates to work on

25 the ground you see.

Page 24900

1 Q. You'll see in paragraph 22 he's talking about the operations that

2 had just been carried out. He says it was noticed that certain police

3 officers in manoeuvre and territorial detachments and members of the

4 reserve force, including officers in those units, behaved highly

5 unprofessionally, and he mentions stealing from houses and stealing

6 vehicles and torching houses.

7 Were you aware of that? Did you see any of that or hear about

8 any of that in July or August 1998 in Kosovo?

9 A. Of course I did. In order to combat these activities we

10 organised ourselves, and many policemen were prosecuted in misdemeanour

11 proceedings or criminal proceedings. They were dismissed from work. And

12 we specially organised officers from what we called the section for

13 legality who would monitor police conduct and directly take steps against

14 defenders. And I believe we had over 70 --

15 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the number.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- cases which we prosecuted in

17 order to combat such behaviour.


19 Q. I remember you mentioning that figure earlier today. Is that the

20 total number for the entire time that you were in Kosovo in both 1998 and

21 1999, that 70 individuals were prosecuted or processed?

22 A. I cannot tell you now for sure whether 50 was in 1998 and 20 the

23 next year, but I believe a section, it was the section for legality in

24 SUP Belgrade recorded all this and took steps filed misdemeanor reports

25 or criminal reports and proceeded with prosecutions.

Page 24901

1 Q. Of those 70 could you give us any number or percentage that

2 involved crimes other than property crime? Did any of those involve

3 crimes against life and limb or against civilians involving life or limb?

4 A. Well, in that report I wrote I already described a number of

5 cases. If you allow me, I can indicate this particular detail.

6 In item 18 of my statement, it says that we made every effort to

7 suppress abuse, and we took into custody certain policemen who had seized

8 or stolen Albanian property.

9 Q. Do you -- well, when did you write that report? Was this a

10 summary report at the end of your time there listing all -- all 70 of

11 those cases, or were these periodic reports compiled? What was it?

12 A. For 1998 there was a report and a separate report probably for

13 1999, because on the ground we did not have the proper setting to deal

14 with administrative work. We frequently lacked offices and power supply,

15 but at the end, we made a report to reflect the situation. And this

16 section for legality was tasked whenever they were going on weekend leave

17 and were being replaced by another team to file their report with the

18 chief of secretariat and the MUP in Belgrade.

19 Q. And have you seen either of those reports since you wrote them

20 back in 1998 and 1999?

21 A. I saw some. In this paragraph that I've mentioned, what I

22 describe here is that the policemen robbed an Albanian family, and we

23 took them into custody, and we took steps against them, which means that

24 we took measures immediately as we received information about some

25 illegal activity. Naturally if conditions permitted.

Page 24902

1 Q. Okay. I want to switch now to some of your testimony here in

2 court today. At page 22 and 23 Mr. Ivetic was asking you whether any of

3 your subordinate officers in the PJP ever drafted or prepared any written

4 orders or decision maps in connection with your assignments in

5 anti-terrorist actions, and you said no, you had no qualified personnel

6 that would deal with that.

7 Now, I think you also said that you didn't get any written orders

8 or decision maps from your superiors as well as receiving not receiving

9 any from your subordinates, but you and your men did take part in some of

10 those anti-terrorist actions in 1999, right? Joint actions with the VJ?

11 Yeah. You'll have to speak out loud, so we can get it on the

12 transcript.

13 A. That's correct. Joint actions were with the army. We didn't act

14 independently in any action, and our people were not qualified for that;

15 correct.

16 Q. So you must have received these -- some text or maps from

17 somebody, and I think you were asked that question several times, but I'm

18 not sure I ever heard the answer. Who was the person that provided you

19 maps and related text about when and where your detachment, your PJP

20 people, were supposed to go in these actions? Who was the person that

21 you got a document or a map from?

22 I see Mr. Ivetic on his feet, Your Honour?

23 MR. IVETIC: It's in the form of a -- Mr. Hannis is I think

24 mixes two matters together. I don't know whether he has the statement in

25 front of him. I believe that is covered in the statement I don't want to

Page 24903

1 be accused of leading the witness or anything like that but I believe at

2 least one aspect of it is covered very, very precisely in the statement.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: It's become a fairly significant issue, so no

4 doubt it will be a feature in your re-examination.

5 Mr. Hannis.


7 Q. Colonel, can you answer that question? Can you give us the name

8 of a person or persons who gave you orders with text or map orders for

9 your unit's participation in these joint VJ-MUP anti-terrorist actions in

10 1999?

11 A. This is my explanation: When the conditions allowed, I would

12 stop by the Pristina staff. I had people I knew there, and whenever I

13 could, I would stop by to see them, to make inquiries, to call my family

14 if they had phone lines operational and so on, and whenever there were

15 any activities, they would prepare in envelopes documents for me, and

16 this is how I would take those documents sometimes. And sometimes when I

17 wasn't able to go there myself I would send a courier, and the courier

18 would go to the staff and bring back the envelope that was intended for

19 me for certain activities.

20 Q. Okay. And on those occasions when you stopped by the Pristina

21 staff, who was the person? Give me a name or more than one name who gave

22 you the maps and the documents?

23 A. Dusko Adamovic was the person who distributed documents to me

24 when I went there. And if I didn't go there, then I would receive it via

25 the courier.

Page 24904

1 Q. The documents that came to you by courier in addition to the text

2 of the order and the map, was there any cover letter or note from anybody

3 at the MUP staff, or was it just the order and the map that you would

4 receive the courier --

5 I see Mr. Ivetic on his feet?

6 MR. IVETIC: Misstates the testimony of the witness, Your Honour.

7 At this point if he's going to do it that way, I have to intervene and

8 say that in the statement it's very clear maps were received from the

9 staff of the MUP, and I don't think that we have anywhere in the evidence

10 here thus far anything beyond that.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: It would be very helpful if the witness would say

12 that in answer to the question, because if you look at the question that

13 was asked, it covers both text, orders, and maps, and he goes on to

14 explain that he -- almost as if he was going to the supermarket for his

15 shopping might pop into the MUP staff office and pick up what was lying

16 around for him. It's such a vague general answer that Mr. Hannis is

17 plainly entitled to explore it further without prompting.

18 Please continue, Mr. Hannis.


20 Q. Colonel, let me start with this: When you received something in

21 the envelope from the courier, what was in there? Maybe I have assumed

22 too much. What did you get?

23 A. Usually there would be a map in the envelope or a decision map or

24 an excerpt of the map pertaining to my task and an order, or if there was

25 a previous order then I would only receive a map or an excerpt of the map

Page 24905

1 or excerpt of the decision without a stamp or a registration number or a

2 cover letter. That was the standard routine. And whenever a courier

3 sent me documents, it would be done in this way, and that was the

4 accepted way.

5 Q. Okay. For that -- that decision map and maybe the text on

6 occasions when you received those in the envelope brought by the courier,

7 was there any other information in or on the envelope about where it came

8 from? Was there a return address or anything indicating who was sending

9 it to you?

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Don't answer that just for the moment.

11 Where do you get the notion, Mr. Hannis, that there is some text,

12 because the whole of the answer seemed to relate to maps.

13 MR. HANNIS: An excerpt of the map pertaining to my task and

14 order.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Task and order.

16 MR. HANNIS: Which I understood to --

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, I think you're right. It's the way it's

18 phrased. Yes. Thank you. Please proceed.

19 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

20 Q. So was there any indication in or on the envelope about who was

21 sending this material to you?

22 A. Please, there could have perhaps been an indication of my name in

23 handwriting on the envelope, and then inside it would be stated who

24 drafted it, who was the author, or who wrote the written portion. So

25 this document contained that detail, yes. At one point in time I even

Page 24906

1 made a comment when that was shown to me.

2 Q. When you said at one point in time you made a comment when that

3 was shown to you, what are you referring to, something while you were

4 testifying here or --

5 A. That's correct.

6 Q. I didn't understand what you meant.

7 A. That's correct.

8 Q. Okay. That was earlier today by one of the lawyers over there?

9 A. Yes, correct. Yes.

10 Q. Thank you. You talked about communication with the VJ commanders

11 about anti-terrorist actions. You mention within your detachment, and

12 this is at page 23, line 18 today, you said: "Within the detachment I

13 had assistants and company commanders."

14 Now, how many company commanders did you have in the -- well, in

15 the detachment that you were the commander of in 1999?

16 A. Let me just be specific enough. There were two detachments, one

17 in Pec with Bosko Buha and one with me. Initially there were supposed to

18 be some 500-and-something people, but we had a lot of wounded, a lot of

19 injured people, a lot of absent people, and usually half of them were

20 busy in the territory, protecting the depth of the territory and our

21 backs, ensuring that nobody would approach us, and then the other half

22 would be in action, and that number varied, of course. Very often we

23 couldn't make up the basic numbers.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis, you have departed now, have you, you

25 have completed what you had to ask about the way in which these orders

Page 24907

1 were transmitted?

2 MR. HANNIS: I was finished with that, Your Honour, if you wanted

3 to follow up with something.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, you said you were shown an example which you

5 confirmed was the form in which you received an order. Can you tell us

6 more about that one.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that these were the

8 documents pertaining to the actions from 1999. I think that they were on

9 the screen and that I explained who was the author and how I had obtained

10 them. Prior to that I explained how we held meetings and how we

11 discussed how we were going to act in an action.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: I don't think I've seen such a document today.

13 Mr. Ivetic, did you place on the screen the sort of document that

14 the witness was describing, one that gives his orders to him for an

15 action?

16 MR. IVETIC: Well, here I'm speculating. I believe everything I

17 put on the screen the witness has in front of him. Perhaps he could look

18 through the hard copies and without me directing him have him select what

19 he is making reference to. That's probably the --

20 JUDGE BONOMY: It's difficult to -- to go through all of this

21 statement as we progress, but in the area of paragraph 24 and so on,

22 there is a very general reference to orders, but am I not right in

23 thinking that all the specific information relates to maps or extract

24 maps?

25 MR. IVETIC: In the statement perhaps. I believe I don't have

Page 24908

1 entire statement in front of me, I have the Serbian version, but I think

2 the one order I showed him was the -- pardon me, the order for Palatna,

3 which is 6D -- one moment, Your Honour. 6D709 was the -- the one order

4 that I showed him, if it's indeed one of the ones that I showed him.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Can we look, please, at 6D709.

6 MR. HANNIS: I see the witness is holding up a document, Your

7 Honour. Maybe he's found it.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Is that 6D709? Do you know?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, this one.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: We shall have it on the screen in a moment.

11 Now, did you receive that document?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct, I did.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: So this sort of thing would -- would come along

14 with a map or a part of a map for your role in the action?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

17 Mr. Hannis.

18 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Q. I wanted to ask you a few questions about the 122nd Intervention

20 Brigade in 1999. As I understand, you were the -- you were the overall

21 commander of the entire brigade; is that right?

22 A. Correct.

23 Q. And your deputy was Colonel Nikolic?

24 A. Part of the detachment that was in Podujevo. And then the other

25 one, or the 1st detachment was in Pec, which is a city 100 kilometres

Page 24909

1 away. So the Intervention Brigade had two detachments. One was under

2 the command of Bosko Buha, and I commanded the second one, and I was the

3 overall commander.

4 Q. Okay. The one under Buha in Pec was sometimes referred to as the

5 21st PJP Detachment in 1999?

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. And the one that made up the rest of the 122nd Intervention

8 Brigade was commanded by you, and it was referred to as the 22nd; right?

9 A. Correct.

10 Q. And you were in Podujevo, the Podujevo area.

11 A. [No interpretation]

12 Q. That seems odd to me, because you're the commander of the whole

13 thing, and you're the commander of the half that's in Podujevo; right?

14 A. You've understood it well. We were split in two towns, and we

15 didn't really have communication between us, and it wasn't until the end

16 that we had full communication.

17 Q. Okay. Thank you. That helps. And the approximate number of men

18 that you had in the 22nd in the Podujevo area in 1999 was how many, 300,

19 400? Can you give me an approximate number?

20 A. That number varied from 400 to -- 450 to 550 people, because we

21 had problems with people getting wounded and some other problems, and

22 that number constantly varied.

23 Q. And in -- in Pec, Buha had approximately how many under him in

24 the 21st?

25 A. We split our people approximately into roughly half, in

Page 24910

1 approximately equal parts. So we had a similar number usually.

2 Sometimes I had more, sometimes he had more, but roughly similar.

3 Q. Am I correct to say that he had about 450 to 500 as well and

4 between you, you would have had between 900 and a 1.000.

5 A. We seldom had 1.000. We always were below that figure, but

6 roughly, yes.

7 Q. Thank you. I understand that better now. Thanks.

8 You were asked a question today at page 27 by Mr. Ivetic: Did

9 you ever act in a command capacity over VJ artillery in order to be able

10 to direct them or initiate fire, and your answer was, "No, I could not

11 command artillery, nor was I qualified to do that."

12 I accept that. I understand that. But although you couldn't

13 command it, when you were engaged in an anti -- a joint anti-terrorist

14 action with the VJ, could you not request artillery support if you needed

15 it? You couldn't command it, but could you ask for it?

16 A. I could propose that. This is how it was organised in that form.

17 I would ask them or propose that to him, and then he would give a

18 competent technical opinion and would either provide that support or not

19 provide. Sometimes he wouldn't provide it sufficiently, but, you know,

20 we had activities occasionally, not every day. I couldn't order it tom

21 him. I couldn't make the decision by myself, but I could ask him.

22 Q. I take it from your answer then it sounds like there were some

23 occasions where you did request it, and sometimes you got it and

24 sometimes you didn't. Is that right?

25 A. That's correct. My companies, which were on the ground,

Page 24911

1 commanders of those companies sometimes needed to ask for assistance, and

2 sometimes this assistant -- this assistance could be provided in this

3 way. And since I had communication with the military commander, I would

4 directly talk to him about that.

5 Q. Okay. And that was my next question. When you said that you

6 would ask them or propose that to him and then he would give a competent

7 technical opinion, who are you talking about? Who was the guy you were

8 asking to do this? Is it the artillery commander or is it some other

9 military commander you were talking to. Who were you asking for to

10 provide that kind of support? Was it always the same person or who was

11 it?

12 A. If you're referring to 1999, in this area I mostly worked with

13 one military command, and that was Colonel Mihajlo Gergar. I usually

14 cooperated with him and when needed, I would ask him to provide

15 assistance in the form of artillery support or some other fire support

16 since the police did not have those weapons at its disposal.

17 Q. You made that distinction about 1999. Were there any occasions

18 in 1998 where you requested artillery support?

19 A. If I can give a you example. There were such situations. We

20 came across a large barricade in a canyon on the road between Pec and

21 Pristina. It was a large five-metre tall stone barrier. We couldn't

22 break through it, and we asked for assistance because the area around it

23 had been mind and since we will no means to break through that barricade

24 we asked for assistance and the assistance was provided to us.

25 Q. Who did you make the request to on that occasion, if you

Page 24912

1 remember?

2 A. I think it was Commander Jankovic whom I mentioned. I think that

3 was his last name. I think that he assisted me in that regard.

4 Q. And in 1998, other than this one with the big stone barrier in

5 the road, did you ever request artillery support in connection with

6 action or activity against KLA or terrorists?

7 A. I did. We had situations where terrorists were firing at us with

8 heavy machine-guns or recoilless guns or heavy hand-held rocket

9 launchers. They had stone fences, and they would take a stone or a

10 boulder out of that fence and make a hole through which they were

11 shooting at police. It was very difficult for us to respond to that

12 fire, and we didn't have the artillery, and that's why we asked for

13 occasional assistance.

14 Q. Can you recall when and where any of those occasions were?

15 A. I can remember a situation near Podujevo. Colonel Gergar

16 described that in his statement, as did I. In 1998 on that road and

17 along that road leading to Kijevo and Pristina, in several places they

18 had prepared Molotov cocktails and barriers. They had mined the roads

19 and so on.

20 Q. I want to ask you a question now about that document we talked

21 about before, 6D709. I think you have a hard copy there, and I think

22 it's at the bottom of page 2 in the Serbian version, and in English it's

23 page 3 under unit task it's item number 5.1. You were asked about this.

24 We see a task for the 211th Armoured Brigade, parts of the brigade, with

25 the 95th Military Territorial Detachment, and then it looks like in B/C/S

Page 24913

1 it says 1 -- 1/122 MUP Intervention Brigade, and I think you said that

2 was a company. That was one company of your Intervention Brigade? Is

3 that what that refers to?

4 A. Let me tell you. It says here one company, but one company

5 wasn't enough so we took larger forces. Therefore, two companies were

6 engaged and another unit, the JCO -- the JSO, which continued working

7 further on. It says in the second line JSO is to put up a barricade.

8 Q. Now, earlier today when you talked about that you told us you

9 thought that was a mistake there where it says JSO, because I think we

10 saw an after action report where there was a reference to the SAJ. Do

11 you recall now which is correct? Is it SAJ or is it JSO?

12 A. You're quite right. JSO is a mistake. It should say SAJ. I

13 think that a mistake was made here in listing the tasks, and I think that

14 SAJ was engaged in this area.

15 Q. And about how many men from your Intervention Brigade were

16 engaged in this particular action, if you remember?

17 A. I think that we got two companies involved in that area and that

18 the SAJ, I don't know how many people they numbered, a company perhaps,

19 and we didn't think that this action was dangerous enough to require

20 stronger forces. We agreed with the army on that issue.

21 Q. And -- and what about the reference I see -- it looks like

22 there's a reference right before JSO to OPG. Was there an OPG involved

23 in this action separate and apart from the SAJ and the PJP detachment?

24 A. I did not have such a unit with such designation, OPG. I don't

25 remember that any OPG was engaged in that area, if I remember correctly.

Page 24914

1 Our forces were sufficient, plus the SAJ. We worked together with them.

2 The only thing that there was is that I had guides from the Podujevo OUP

3 who were familiar with the area, and there were just several of them.

4 Q. I remember you telling us about that. Could you look at the last

5 page in the B/C/S. It's the last page in English as well. I think you

6 told us you received this document; right?

7 A. It seems familiar, the document, and I received it prior to the

8 action.

9 Q. One little question I have for you. You see at the very end

10 there are two item numbers 14. I suppose that's a typographical error,

11 but do you remember noticing that back in 1999 when you got the document?

12 A. See, this is not a police document, and it wasn't until today

13 that I saw number 14 written here twice. I don't think it's deliberate.

14 I suppose it's just a mistake, an honest mistake.

15 Q. All right.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis, is this a suitable time?

17 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour, this is a good time, Your Honour,

18 if I may.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Zivaljevic, we will have to conclude our

20 hearing for today at this time because there is another case here at

21 4.00. That means, regrettably, that we cannot complete your evidence and

22 that you will have to return here on Tuesday when our next sitting is,

23 and that's on Tuesday afternoon. That will be at 2.15 in this courtroom

24 on Tuesday.

25 Between now and then, it is extremely important that you have no

Page 24915

1 communication with any person about the evidence in this case, and that

2 means any aspect of the evidence. You can obviously communicate about

3 any other matter, but not about the evidence.

4 So could you please now leave the courtroom with the usher and

5 we'll see you at 2.15 on Tuesday.

6 We shall now go briefly into private session.

7 [The witness stands down]

8 [Private session]

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.29 p.m.,

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1 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 8th day

2 of April, 2008, at 2.15 p.m.