Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 25245

 1                           Monday, 14 April 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

 5             JUDGE BONOMY:  Good morning, everyone.

 6             Mr. Ivetic.

 7             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, I'd like to update you on the situation

 8     with respect to the matters we discussed at the end of last week relating

 9     to the remaining witnesses for -- for the Lukic Defence team.  The one

10     individual, Mr. Kovacevic, who we had had at the end of the week did have

11     to go back to Belgrade to urgently attend to the matter that we

12     discussed -- that we discussed in private session.  He left yesterday.

13     We're hoping still to get him back.

14             In the meantime the statements for the person that we've proposed

15     as 6D-2, although as I understand it there's not yet a decision on those

16     protective measures, so that's why I was saying the man we've proposed as

17     6D-2, his statement was made available -- the translated version and the

18     B/C/S version were made available on Saturday -- Saturday -- Sunday --

19     pardon me, Sunday morning, whereas Mr. Zlatkovic's was just made

20     available late last night, I would say even early today since I doubt

21     anyone was on their e-mail except for myself at midnight.

22             We have gone through this weekend and tried to contact the

23     remaining witnesses and see who is available and what the prospects are

24     for the rest of the case, and the way we see it we would be able to -- we

25     would be able to present 6D-2 tomorrow, that would give everyone the 48

Page 25246

 1     hours' notice.  If parties waive 24 hours of Zlatkovic's notice, we could

 2     also do Mr. Zlatkovic tomorrow and finish both tomorrow.  Otherwise, the

 3     alternative would be to have Mr. Zlatkovic on Wednesday.  We would be

 4     prepared to present the expert Mr. Simonovic also on Wednesday, I don't

 5     know how long he would take, but we would have approximately I think two

 6     to three hours in direct.  Zlatkovic would only have 30 minutes to 40

 7     minutes in direct.  6D-2 as I see would have very little in direct.  6D-2

 8     would have 10 to 15 minutes or so, even under half an hour.

 9             Then we would have still in play we have the individual that we

10     have proposed as 6D -- the individual that we have proposed as 6D-1 for

11     which Your Honours might recall the -- there was a matter from last week

12     about that witnesses's ability to attend.  I believe the last

13     communications we had with that individual are that if protective

14     measures are granted she -- they would be able to attend and we would

15     have, as I said, Mr. Kovacevic hopefully returning and one other witness

16     for whom I think that that witness would -- has a protective measures

17     request being made.

18             But in any event even if we look at the worst-case scenario and

19     have our next witness called on Wednesday, which I think is even more

20     than worst-case scenario, we would still complete our remaining witnesses

21     by the beginning of next week, which I think in the overall picture is --

22     is the best we can do under the circumstances, and that involves of

23     course the decisions we made this weekend after contacting witnesses to

24     trim down our list quite significantly and also provide everyone a fair

25     opportunity to have the statements with enough time to -- to -- to

Page 25247

 1     cross -- to prepare for cross-examination on them.

 2             I believe 6D -- the person disclosed as 6D-1 and the last person

 3     whose name I'm not going to say in open court because I believe that

 4     there's a protective measures motion being prepared as we speak, those

 5     two would be live witnesses, but they would not -- I think 6D -- 6D-1

 6     would probably be an hour and a half -- so we would probably do --

 7     probably try to do a short statement with that individual and have one

 8     and a half hours maybe of direct if -- if that much, and then with the

 9     last individual they would be very -- I think -- they would probably be

10     live because I don't think we would have time to prepare that one, but I

11     would not anticipate more than an hour and a half, two hours for that one

12     as well.

13             Long and short of it, Your Honours, we don't have a witness that

14     we can -- well, we do have 6D-2 here, but as I understand it from talking

15     to colleagues that they would be objecting -- strictly adhering to the 48

16     hours' rule on the statement and again we have very limited direct for

17     the individual, but 6D-2 is -- and of course there is the issue of the

18     protective measures not yet being ruled upon.  So we're at Your Honour's

19     mercy basically for how to proceed, but again we re-assure that if our

20     proposals are acceptable to the Court we will of course endeavour and I

21     think we will successfully complete our witnesses by the beginning of

22     next week, well before the scheduled break in the matter.

23             JUDGE BONOMY:  You're having some difficulty making clear to us

24     the position in relation to protected and potential protected witnesses,

25     so we shall briefly go into private session so that we can unravel your

Page 25248

 1     tongue on that; but I do understand your difficulty.

 2                           [Private session]

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Page 25249

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4                           [Open session]

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session.

 6             JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you.

 7             Mr. Hannis, is there to be a response in relation to 6D-2 and the

 8     protective measures for that witness?

 9             MR. HANNIS:  Well, yes, Your Honour, we are going to request that

10     we have at a minimum the 48 hours --

11             JUDGE BONOMY:  No, no, no, no.  6D-2 protective measures, can we

12     deal with that.  We are awaiting your response and I think today may be

13     the 14th day for the response on that witness, and that's the only reason

14     no decision has yet been taken on that.

15             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honour, I guess I wasn't aware of that.  I was

16     thinking of 6D-1, we had filed our response --

17             JUDGE BONOMY:  We dealt with that, but there is another one and

18     that relates to the witness proposed as 6D-2.  The measures sought I

19     think are voice and image distortion and pseudonym.

20             MR. HANNIS:  We certainly don't have an objection to the

21     pseudonym, Your Honour, and off the top of my head I don't have an

22     objection to the face and voice distortion.

23             JUDGE BONOMY:  Well, Mr. Ivetic, you -- your application for the

24     pseudonym for that witness and the use of image distortion and voice

25     distortion is granted.  We note that there's no opposition from the

Page 25250

 1     Prosecution, but in any event the application is justified and the usual

 2     conditions that apply, the other ancillary conditions will apply to that.

 3             Now ...

 4             MR. IVETIC:  Just ...

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE BONOMY:  That then disposes of that aspect of that

 7     witness's evidence, and we can now turn back to the witness for whom the

 8     pseudonym 6D-1 --

 9             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, there may be confusion on my part, but

10     if we could stick with 6D-2 for a moment, I'm being told that the

11     application did ask for closed session for that witness as well.

12             JUDGE BONOMY:  Just a second.

13             That's not my understanding, Mr. Ivetic.

14                           [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

15             MR. IVETIC:  I'm told that the -- although the witness

16     notification -- the partly confidential part of the witness notification

17     said pseudonym and voice distortion, that the actual application from the

18     20 -- 31st of March did ask for closed session.

19             JUDGE BONOMY:  Well, I have your application here, Mr. Ivetic,

20     and there is no request for closed session.

21             MR. IVETIC:  Then there must be some -- I'm told paragraph 9(b)

22     made reference to it, that's what the e-mail from back in the office is

23     directing to, but in any event I do know from meeting with the witness

24     with my colleague Mr. Lukic that the witness had been insistent that --

25     that they were concerned that without closed session, their identity

Page 25251

 1     could be made known by the circumstances of their --

 2             JUDGE BONOMY:  Well, there's absolutely nothing about that in

 3     this application.  That was the position in relation to 6D-1.

 4             MR. IVETIC:  Correct, 6D-1 we're clear on.  It's 6D-2 that we

 5     ought to --

 6             JUDGE BONOMY:  You had such a narrative in the--

 7             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.

 8             JUDGE BONOMY:  -- application for 6D-1.  But there's no such

 9     narrative in this one.

10             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, that might cause a problem for us,

11     because as I indicated I believe the witness in question was rather --

12     rather firm on -- on that request of us.  So it may have been -- it may

13     have been an issue where we in filing did not include all the

14     necessary -- one moment.

15                           [Defence counsel confer]

16             JUDGE BONOMY:  Well, when we have a break you can review the

17     situation.  The application that has been made has been granted; it can

18     be varied if that can be justified, but that's a matter for you.

19             Now we can return to the situation of witness 6D-1.  I think we

20     made it clear when dealing with that matter last week that if the issue

21     of protective measures did arise we would review the position.  So that

22     what you're asking us to do?

23             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, it is, Your Honour, based upon our information

24     that should be -- that issue should be reviewed so that we can make plans

25     to try and have the witness attend here under the conditions that were

Page 25252

 1     sought if the Court is willing to grant the conditions.

 2             JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you.

 3             Mr. Hannis, do you have anything more to say on that one?

 4             MR. HANNIS:  Yes, Your Honour, if the witness attends here we

 5     were willing to agree that her testimony be taken in private session, and

 6     we can address after her testimony if there's some parts that should be

 7     made public.

 8             JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE BONOMY:  In the case of the witness for whom the pseudonym

11     6D-1 is proposed, we are satisfied that voice and image distortion alone

12     would not be sufficient to protect the identity of the witness so if --

13     so we would grant the application for the pseudonym and evidence in

14     private session -- in fact, in closed session, closed session, and that

15     again will be subject to the usual conditions that accompany such

16     decisions.

17             That then takes us to the issue of how we are to address the

18     evidence of the witness Radovan Zlatkovic.

19             Mr. Hannis.

20             MR. HANNIS:  Well, Your Honour, this was a witness that was

21     originally listed as being a witness that would testify last week.  Near

22     the end of the week we raised the issue that we had not yet received a

23     statement for him, that we had some concerns about what we saw as a

24     vagueness item in the 65 ter notice.  We did eventually receive some

25     clarification on that, but we did not receive his statement until I think

Page 25253

 1     about 11.43 p.m. last night.  Ms. Kravetz is the lawyer who is intending

 2     to cross-examine that witness and she didn't see it until she same in

 3     this morning.  So we would stand by the 48-hour notice and ask that he

 4     not take the stand until at least late yesterday -- Ms. Kravetz tells me

 5     she could be prepared to cross-examine him tomorrow, I think I said late

 6     yesterday, I meant late tomorrow.  We could do that but we are not

 7     prepared to cross-examine him today and we don't think we should be

 8     required to.

 9             We had some indication I thought on Friday from the Defence

10     counsel that they expected to receive his statement that day.  I think

11     this was the one they indicated they'd farmed out to Belgrade, and for

12     some reason we did not get it until a quarter to midnight last night.

13             JUDGE BONOMY:  One other way of dealing with the witness of

14     course, is not to have the statement but to hear the witness today.

15             MR. HANNIS:  That is a possibility, Your Honour, I know we've we

16     done that sometimes in the past, but because we expect a statement our

17     preparation sort of is on hold until we see the statement and then we

18     decide what documents we need, et cetera.

19             JUDGE BONOMY:  The issue in this situation is what is in the

20     interests of justice, because it's only -- if it is in the interests of

21     justice that a statement is admitted.  Now, that's the foundation for

22     your objection to proceeding with the statement straight away today

23     because the interests of justice demand that you have more time to

24     prepare cross-examination.  You'll naturally get that when you hear the

25     evidence viva voce because it takes longer and you are able to take it in

Page 25254

 1     and assess the questions to ask as it goes along.  It would assist us to

 2     know by which means you prefer to proceed, in particular are you content

 3     that it's by statement because at least you know where you stand on that

 4     or do you take a different position in light of our willingness to

 5     consider other options?

 6             MR. HANNIS:  May I have a moment to consult?

 7             MS. KRAVETZ:  Or maybe I can address that, Your Honour.  We have

 8     no preferences.  If Defence wants to lead the witness live, that's not a

 9     problem.  What I would request is a bit more time to conduct my

10     cross-examination later because they've just notified a new video which I

11     haven't seen and since I just got the statement I may have additional

12     exhibits that I want to add to my list that are not there, so that's the

13     only thing I would request.  But if my colleagues want to lead him live,

14     that's not a problem.

15             JUDGE BONOMY:  But you're okay with tomorrow?

16             MS. KRAVETZ:  Yes, I'm okay with tomorrow.

17             JUDGE BONOMY:  And who's dealing with 6D-2, Mr. Hannis?

18             MR. HANNIS:  I am, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE BONOMY:  And what's your position on that one?

20             MR. HANNIS:  I received his statement I think yesterday -- well,

21     it was sent yesterday at 10.00 in the morning.  We would request that we

22     not start cross-examination of him until tomorrow as well.  The statement

23     I think is 34 pages long.  I heard I think this morning that direct

24     examination would be fairly short, but I'm giving you notice now that I

25     may request longer than an hour to do cross-examination depending on

Page 25255

 1     what's in the statement.  There are some five pages of exhibits listed

 2     for him, I believe.

 3             JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you.

 4             Mr. Ivetic, there is the option of proceeding with one or other

 5     of these witnesses live.

 6             MR. IVETIC:  The problem being that both witnesses have very

 7     extensive written statements and to do viva voce would be spending just

 8     as much time.  We still at the end of day be here as long as we are, just

 9     with a lot more court time and a lot more difficulties, especially

10     dealing with introduction of exhibits, since the statements do try to

11     introduce exhibits in them so as to speed up the process and make it more

12     manageable for everyone.  We would prefer I think the -- our position

13     would be that we intend to present these witnesses as 92 -- part of their

14     testimony pursuant to 92 ter and part live as we've indicated and that

15     would be our position on the matter given -- as I said, this -- the

16     witness, Zlatkovic, we cut down his statement in order to get the

17     translation done in time to, I believe, 18 pages and so I still have to

18     prepare to try and get the -- that's why -- that's why there would be

19     half an hour to 40 minutes for that witness in live to try and highlight

20     some of the points in the material that I had to cut out of the statement

21     in order to get the translation done in time because, again, we had the

22     difficulties with the translation.

23             Our preference and our stand would be to present them both via

24     live/92 ter, and that would, I think, if counsel from the other side are

25     saying that they would be able to do Zlatkovic in the afternoon tomorrow

Page 25256

 1     we would be able to present him tomorrow and we could perhaps even finish

 2     both witnesses tomorrow.  It would again depend on the extent of the

 3     cross-examination of the other parties and the Prosecution, which I don't

 4     know the extent of, but in any event we would still be on track then to

 5     complete the expert and the remaining witnesses that we have -- that we

 6     now have in play --

 7             JUDGE BONOMY:  I don't think we're talking about the afternoon.

 8     We're talking about tomorrow, full stop.

 9             Is that correct, Ms. Kravetz?

10             MS. KRAVETZ:  Yes, that's no problem if it's morning.

11             JUDGE BONOMY:  And I take it you have no problem with actually

12     hearing such direct as there is of Zlatkovic this morning and then

13     adjourning the cross-examination until tomorrow .

14             MS. KRAVETZ:  Yes, I understood that was the question Your Honour

15     was putting to me.

16             JUDGE BONOMY:  There isn't a problem, Mr. Ivetic, about leading

17     your witness in one form or another today, the problem relates to the

18     cross-examination.  So we will certainly be hearing Zlatkovic's evidence

19     in chief this morning.

20             MR. IVETIC:  It might take longer since I had the -- I have only

21     half the questions prepared for -- with the material without --

22              JUDGE BONOMY:  I'm sorry ?

23             MR. IVETIC:  The issue is we had to take out a lot of material

24     from the statement to get the translation in time to even get it to get

25     it to the parties s last night.  So I still have a set of I think it's

Page 25257

 1     ten pages of the -- of the original statement that I have to look through

 2     and try and pull out questions from so I would be hard-pressed to confine

 3     him within half an hour and get it all done efficiently and with the

 4     interests of my clients.

 5             JUDGE BONOMY:  You have the luxury of being able to take your

 6     time.  There wouldn't also be a problem by giving you an hour to prepare

 7     yourself to do that.  We obviously have time and we should use the time.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  If I could get two hours to do that, then I'd be --

 9             JUDGE BONOMY:  You were obviously a negotiator in another life.

10             MR. IVETIC:  I'm just trying to be balancing the interests of all

11     the parties and especially my client who I have to keep in mind and

12     knowing the material I have and the state that I'm in, I think that I

13     would need at least two hours to --

14             JUDGE BONOMY:  Okay, the final piece in this jigsaw to enable us

15     to prepare things would be any assistance that we can be given in

16     relation to the time that will be occupied by Simonovic.  How long is

17     your chief likely to be?

18             MR. IVETIC:  Between two and three hours would be the direct for

19     him.

20             JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you.

21             Who's dealing with that witness.  Mr. --

22             Mr. Stamp, how long do you envisage in cross-examination for him?

23             MR. STAMP:  I don't think it would take more than two sessions,

24     three to four hours, I think.

25             JUDGE BONOMY:  Two sessions for you?

Page 25258

 1             MR. STAMP:  Yes.

 2             JUDGE BONOMY:  So that indicates that we really need -- if we're

 3     going to finish his evidence as well as the other evidence this week we

 4     really need to have started his evidence on Thursday at some stage.

 5             MR. IVETIC:  And I think we indicated that we would -- we should

 6     be able to finish -- we should be able to start him on Wednesday I think

 7     based upon our estimate --

 8             JUDGE BONOMY:  Well, I doubt it in light of what Mr. Hannis has

 9     said about cross-examination of 6D-2.  So I think being more realistic

10     you're talking about Thursday for Simonovic.

11             Now, we don't have Mr. Visnjic with us.  His deputy on expert

12     witnesses is who?

13             MR. SEPENUK:  I am, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE BONOMY:  Five days' notice for experts is what we were told

15     on Friday.  There is a possibility now of expert evidence next week.  So

16     that should be taken into account, and you can start making arrangements

17     now.  I think we would be assisted -- sorry, Mr. Hannis, do you want to

18     intervene on this?

19             MR. HANNIS:  Maybe you were about to speak what I had a question

20     about.  There was also the additional witnesses the Ojdanic team had

21     requested and got permission for regarding the documents.

22             JUDGE BONOMY:  Sorry, I had forgotten that.

23             So it looks like evidence next week under your control in some

24     way -- so -- Mr. Sepenuk, so we'll adjourn shortly, obviously to give

25     Mr. Ivetic time to organize himself, and perhaps in that time you would

Page 25259

 1     consider the order in which evidence beyond the Lukic Defence case might

 2     be presented and what evidence it might be appropriate to bring next

 3     week.

 4             MR. SEPENUK:  Yes, Your Honour.  The -- you mentioned last week

 5     that experts probably would not be called until after the break.  I think

 6     you said that specifically, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE BONOMY:  Yeah -- and not so long ago I said I thought they

 8     would be.

 9             MR. SEPENUK:  Right.

10             JUDGE BONOMY:  So you see how things change.

11             MR. SEPENUK:  No, I understand that, but we somewhat relied on

12     the specific statement that you made.  Now, I heard from the rest of my

13     colleagues yet because there are other expert witnesses.  Quite frankly,

14     Your Honour, before you made that statement I was ready to bring one of

15     our joint experts, that's Dr. Fruits and then after you made your

16     statement I said well, that's probably the end of it.  Now there are

17     other experts, the handwriting folks, Mr. Fila has an expert, and

18     Mr. Zecevic has an expert.  So I think what we'd like to do is during

19     this next hour or two - I understand that we're going to adjourn now -

20     let's -- we'll talk about it and come back with some sort of a proposal.

21             JUDGE BONOMY:  Yeah, I think somehow or other it's essential to

22     have some of that evidence here next week in light of what's just been

23     said.

24                           [Trial Chamber confers]

25             JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Bakrac.

Page 25260

 1             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your permission, I

 2     just wish to inform the Chamber that we all received Zlatkovic's

 3     statement last night.  I haven't seen it yet nor have I had a chance to

 4     consult, so I won't be ready for the cross-examination before tomorrow.

 5             JUDGE BONOMY:  Yes.  If that remains the position we'll obviously

 6     have regard to it, but you will have some time now to have a look at it

 7     and see to what extent it affects you.  I'm not so sure it does have a

 8     great impact on your case in any event.

 9             Now, Mr. Ivetic, it would be convenient if we resumed at 11.15,

10     say, and we had an hour and a half during which we could probably be

11     brought up-to-date on experts and hear your evidence in chief.  Does that

12     sound -- we can make it 11.30, if you feel you need the two hours,

13     though.

14             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, 11.30 would be essential so that we can perhaps

15     even call back to the office and find out what the status of the last

16     individual is as well so we can have a clear picture of that.

17             JUDGE BONOMY:  And if we did sit then, we -- the maximum -- well,

18     we can sit for an hour and a three-quarters, which would take us to 1.15,

19     if that would give us a reasonable prospect of doing all we can do today.

20     If it's necessary to sit in the afternoon, then we would probably break

21     at 1.00.

22             MR. IVETIC:  That's fine.  I'll try and confine my ...

23                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

24             JUDGE BONOMY:  Yes?

25             MR. IVETIC:  As I said, I should be able to confine my direct to

Page 25261

 1     the -- to well within the hour and hour and three-quarters that had been

 2     mentioned.

 3             JUDGE BONOMY:  Very well.

 4             We shall adjourn now and resume at 11.30.

 5                           --- Recess taken at 9.34 a.m.

 6                           --- On resuming at 11.33 a.m.

 7             JUDGE BONOMY:  The first -- before -- no, before the witness

 8     comes in -- just, sorry -- can we deal with the issues that were left

 9     outstanding or is time still required to deal with these?

10             Mr. Sepenuk.

11             MR. SEPENUK:  Yes, Your Honour.  I think that Mr. Visnjic would

12     like to address this matter.  You're talking about the experts now?

13             JUDGE BONOMY:  Yes.

14             MR. SEPENUK:  Yes, I think Mr. Visnjic would like to speak to

15     this matter.

16             JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Visnjic.

17             MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as you are aware, I

18     said on Friday that we need five working days.  Unfortunately on the

19     transcript on -- it says five days only, but it's five working days.  But

20     we will do our best to bring those witnesses.  As things stand now, two

21     witnesses will not be able to come next week, they're not available.  We

22     are gathering documents for the visas for two persons, and for the other

23     two we will be in touch with the Victims and Witnesses Section to see

24     whether they will be able to ensure air tickets for them on time.

25             As for the timetable of testimony for next week, I suggest that

Page 25262

 1     we inform you about that a little later because we are -- still don't

 2     know exactly when the witnesses will be arriving in The Hague.  Quite

 3     certainly they will not be available for next week, that is Stankovic and

 4     Lukic will not be available next week.

 5             JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Visnjic, there are two separate situations

 6     here.  There's the evidence of Aleksic and one other witness in relation

 7     to handwriting.  Perhaps you could give some thought to whether that

 8     might be dealt with next week.  If that were the case, there would be no

 9     question of any more than one expert coming here just in case the time

10     was available to deal with that expert.  Should it not be possible to

11     arrange the evidence of Aleksic and the other, then we would not expect

12     more than -- we would not expect you to arrange for the attendance of

13     more than two of the experts and possibly one would be more realistic.  I

14     think the best situation would be if we could deal with the handwriting

15     and one of the experts.

16             MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, among the four people

17     that are able to come, they may be able to come next week, Aleksic and a

18     witness has been included and we are -- we have in mind only two more

19     additional experts.

20             JUDGE BONOMY:  If you manage to get Aleksic and the other

21     handwriting-related witness, if you manage to do that then I don't think

22     it would be sensible to have more than one other expert here.  So if that

23     helps you.

24             MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] What I can say is that the only

25     question mark I have for the moment is Aleksic.  As for the other

Page 25263

 1     witness, for the handwriting he will be available, of course on condition

 2     that the necessary visa arrangements are made so that now it is only

 3     Aleksic that is in question.  So we would have Aleksic, the witness, and

 4     one expert.  In that case we need to consult with Mr. Zecevic, too,

 5     because I think the joint expert that he will be leading is free only

 6     next week.  So then perhaps he could be the expert witness.  But this is

 7     still open until I know what the final situation is with respect to

 8     Aleksic.

 9             JUDGE BONOMY:  The one you're referring to is Jokic, I take it?

10             MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

11             JUDGE BONOMY:  Now, that would be -- the ideal arrangement would

12     be to deal with the two witnesses relating to handwriting and one expert,

13     and we'll leave it to you to try to arrange that.

14             Mr. Zecevic.

15             MR. ZECEVIC:  If I may just interrupt shortly, Your Honours.  I

16     have made the arrangements already with Mr. Jokic to be present here on

17     Wednesday -- I mean to give evidence on Wednesday, next Wednesday.  The

18     problem with Professor Jokic is that he can come in April but the problem

19     would be for him to come in May because of some private and business

20     obligations.  Thank you very much.  And I would like the Trial Chamber to

21     consider that, please.

22             JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you very much.

23             So we'll leave matters there on the issue of the attendance of

24     witnesses, and we will now proceed with the evidence of Mr. Zlatkovic.

25             MR. SEPENUK:  Excuse me.

Page 25264

 1             JUDGE BONOMY:  Wait, wait, hold on.

 2             Yes, Mr. Sepenuk.

 3             MR. SEPENUK:  In the interim, Your Honour, as -- expecting that

 4     the witness wasn't going to come until after the break, I made some very

 5     mad phone calls in the interim period because, as I say, I was planning

 6     to have Dr. Fruits here before the break until Your Honour made that

 7     statement.  So I think I'm prepared now to bring Dr. Fruits here next

 8     week; on the other hand, I don't want to -- if Your Honour has it in mind

 9     the two handwriting folks and the expert witness, other than

10     Mr. Fruits -- Dr. Fruits, I can leave it at that, but I don't see any

11     problem with having Dr. Fruits here also next week.  But again, that's

12     obviously -- I leave that to Your Honours' discretion.

13             JUDGE BONOMY:  Well, if it's fairly easy to make that

14     arrangement, then it would be beneficial to have the option there.  But

15     bear in mind there are only four days available to us next week.  And I

16     think they are not days -- they are four-hour days as well.  So you

17     might -- we might manage him but it's not looking terribly likely, and

18     that means him coming back at another stage.  I take it he would go home

19     again and come back.

20             MR. SEPENUK:  Yeah, right -- no, if he came, obviously, Your

21     Honour, we would want to have him here and have him finish.  He would be

22     a maximum of I'd say less than an hour and a half, probably less than

23     that and with the appropriate time for cross-examination.  But I simply

24     wanted to mention that to you because we have now made arrangements for

25     him to come.  But again, I leave it to Your Honours' discretion.

Page 25265

 1             JUDGE BONOMY:  No, we will do our best to accommodate that

 2     arrangement, and obviously if Mr. Ivetic finishes on Monday and the

 3     handwriting were dealt with on Tuesday, there would be time on Wednesday

 4     and Thursday to deal with Jokic and Fruits.  So it is a possibility.

 5             MR. SEPENUK:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE BONOMY:  So I'm grateful to you for that.

 7             Anyone else?  All right.

 8             We can now continue with the evidence of Mr. Zlatkovic.

 9                           [The witness entered court]

10             JUDGE BONOMY:  Good morning, Mr. Zlatkovic.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

12             JUDGE BONOMY:  I'm sorry you've been kept waiting so long there,

13     but there have been procedural difficulties this morning.  We've now

14     resolved these as far as we can resolve them and we can proceed with your

15     evidence.  Would you, therefore, please make the solemn declaration to

16     speak the truth by reading aloud the document which will now be shown to

17     you.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Please don't apologise,

19     there's no problem.

20             I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

21     and nothing but the truth.

22             JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you.  Please be seated.

23             You will now be examined by Mr. Ivetic on behalf of Mr. Lukic.

24             Mr. Ivetic.

25             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 25266

 1                           WITNESS:  RADOVAN ZLATKOVIC

 2                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 3                           Examination by Mr. Ivetic:

 4        Q.   Good day, Mr. Zlatkovic.

 5        A.   Good day.

 6        Q.   Mr. Zlatkovic, in preparation for your testimony did you give a

 7     written statement to the members of the Sreten Lukic Defence team?

 8        A.   Yes, I did.

 9             MR. IVETIC:  At this time with the usher's assistance I have a

10     hard copy of 6D1627 in the Serbian language to give to the witness.

11        Q.   And, sir, while we're waiting for that, the rest of us can follow

12     on e-court.  If you could just look through this document and tell us, do

13     you recognise this to be the written statement that you gave to the

14     members of the Lukic Defence team for this case?

15        A.   Yes, it is.

16        Q.   And do you have any corrections to make to this written

17     statement?

18        A.   At the present, no.

19        Q.   Now, today you are under oath.  If we asked you to testify on the

20     same matters as set forth in the statement, would your answers be the

21     same as those set forth therein?

22        A.   Yes.

23             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, we would move to admit the written

24     statement which is 6D1627 into evidence at this point in time.

25             JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you.

Page 25267

 1             MR. IVETIC:

 2        Q.   Now, Mr. Zlatkovic, apart -- or I should say I would like to

 3     first ask you to expand on a few matters from your statement, and first I

 4     would direct your attention to paragraph number 17 of the same, it's page

 5     8 of the Serbian.

 6             MR. IVETIC:  And I apologise, Your Honours, the English I don't

 7     seem to have in front of me.  I guess the translation hasn't made it into

 8     my hands yet, but it should be about thereabouts on the English as well.

 9        Q.   Mr. Zlatkovic, you at paragraph 17 describe the shooting death of

10     policeman Rajkovic Petar.  Did you, in fact, form an investigation with

11     respect to this incident, and did you ever as a result of your

12     investigation determine from where he had been shot; and if so, upon what

13     was this conclusion based?

14        A.   Yes.  In 1998 I was asked to carry out an on-site investigation

15     on the occasion of the death of Petar Rajkovic from the village of Dubac

16     near Kovin because Rajkovic at the time was on the main road between

17     Djakovica and Decani, a check-point in the village of Prilep, and he was

18     hit from a mosque by sniper fire, that is, a projectile fired by a

19     sniper.  When I arrived on the spot I tried to carry out the

20     investigation, but the commander of that unit was there, Stanimir Djukic,

21     and I was unable to approach the location because I was prevented by

22     sniper fire coming from the minaret of the mosque which was on the actual

23     road in Prilep, when you're moving from Djakovica towards Decani this was

24     on the right-hand side about a hundred or 150 metres along that road.

25             So I was unable to carry out the on-site investigation.  Later on

Page 25268

 1     the policemen -- actually, we tried two or three times, even using an

 2     armoured vehicle, but we could see the sniper fire coming from the

 3     minaret and we just couldn't reach there.  The policeman was hit in the

 4     forehead.

 5        Q.   Okay.  Now, I think that's -- we do have details of that in your

 6     statement.  If we can now also then move to paragraph 30 of your

 7     statement, and therein you describe that already on the 25th of March,

 8     1999, some parts of Djakovica were struck by the NATO air-strikes.  And

 9     first of all I would ask you if you could give us some more details about

10     some of the areas, particularly if any of them were civilian, that NATO

11     bombed within Djakovica during this time-period.

12        A.   With the beginning of the NATO air-strikes, parts of the town of

13     Djakovica were exposed, that is Cabran hill overlooking a part of the

14     town -- Cabrat, and the whole centre of the town.  As soon as the bombing

15     started, I think it was on the 24th that it started.  On the 25th a

16     Tomahawk missed the target at Cabrat and fell in the central part of the

17     town near -- next to the river, the very centre of the inhabited area

18     where a number of shops were burned down as a result, the shops being

19     made of planks.  This whole street had wooden buildings along the sides

20     and several Albanian homes were burned down as well, as the area was

21     mostly inhabited by Albanians.  This was close to the Hotel Pastrik.

22        Q.   If we can look at Exhibit 6D538, and I believe, sir, that this is

23     a criminal report or criminal denunciation relating to the event you just

24     described.  If you can look at pages 19 and 20 of the same there are some

25     pictures, and I would ask you if these pictures comport to your

Page 25269

 1     recollection of the scene, that is to say if they are showing this area

 2     that you have told us about.  And actually, I would --

 3        A.   I see the report but not the photographs.  Yes, yes, yes.

 4        Q.   Okay.

 5        A.   That is the street where these wooden huts were with shops and

 6     people mostly engaged in commerce.

 7        Q.   And -- all right.  Here and also I think in paragraph 33 you talk

 8     about fires arising from the NATO bombings.  Could you tell us what was

 9     the capacity of the fire-fighting services within Djakovica to deal with

10     these consequences of the NATO bombings?  What was the fire-fighting

11     capacity like?

12        A.   The fire-fighting units at the very beginning of the air-strikes

13     and even before had strict orders coming from their own administration in

14     Belgrade that as soon as anyone reports a fire of any kind, even of

15     haystacks, that they should immediately extinguish those fires.  They did

16     that whenever they could when they were not prevented from doing so by

17     terrorist attacks, or if it was not possible to extinguish the fires

18     because of NATO bombs.  Even in this particular instance they did go

19     there and they took part in clearing away the rubble from the streets so

20     as to make it open to traffic.  But the fire-fighting unit in Djakovica I

21     think had two motor vehicles so that at times it could not act in two or

22     three places at the same time.  They would go to extinguish one fire and

23     then they would have to refill the water, but they did go out whenever

24     that was possible and I saw them doing it.

25        Q.   Thank you.  If we can just briefly look at 6D30.  In your

Page 25270

 1     statement you talk about how the situation of the NATO bombings was --

 2     benefitted the activities of terrorists and criminals especially with

 3     respect to making the situation more untenable in Djakovica.  If you

 4     could look at this crime report or criminal denunciation, I believe this

 5     is regarding the attack upon some members of the criminalistics police in

 6     Djakovica in park in front of the Hotel Pastrik.  Do you recall this

 7     particular incident and does it reflect some of the -- do you recall more

 8     details of it and does it reflect some of the factors that affected the

 9     ability of the police to go out onto the scene within the city and do its

10     work in terms of crime scene -- in terms of on-site investigations?

11        A.   This is a criminal report, and the damaged party is inspector

12     Nenad Danilovic, who is from Pec.  He worked in the SUP of Djakovica.

13     His duties were to prevent general crime.  Immediately after the raid he

14     was in the park, in front of the Pastrik hotel, and he was hit there

15     probably by a sniper because the bullet found in his arm by the doctor

16     was established to have been fired by a sniper rifle.

17        Q.   Okay.  And if we can look at 6D489, and as we wait for this

18     document I believe this is a criminal denunciation which you yourself

19     prepared.  If you could please confirm that for us and then give us any

20     additional information or commentary that you can about this particular

21     exhibit.

22        A.   In this case is something I testified about in this honourable

23     Tribunal in The Hague in the case against Ramush Haradinaj in July, and I

24     can say that in the course of 1998 we found out that close to the

25     Radonjic lake and in the lake itself there was certain corpses, and I

Page 25271

 1     think it was towards the end of the month of August, the beginning of

 2     September that we somehow managed to get there and indeed we were able to

 3     see for ourselves that there were a number of bodies.  In the lake itself

 4     we found two or three bodies and around the lake there were corpses which

 5     were in a state of advanced decomposition.  Some of those bodies were

 6     identified, they were mostly -- or there were Serbs and Montenegrins and

 7     Romanis, and I think quite a number of Albanians too I'm afraid.  And we

 8     found out through operative work that these Albanians were killed because

 9     they refused to subordinate themselves to the liberation army of Kosovo,

10     that is, the terrorists who were led by Ramush Haradinaj and his men.  A

11     certain Rexha from Djakovica was killed only because he had the

12     photograph of Slobodan Milosevic on one side and Shote Galica on the

13     other, and it was for this reason that he was abducted between Suva Reka

14     and Prizren, taken to the Radonjic lake, and executed there.

15        Q.   If we can move along, I think that that's covered and I think

16     we've had other testimony about the investigations performed there.  If

17     we can take a moment to look at -- first of all, if you could look at

18     paragraph 32 of your statement, and there you mention two incidents of

19     ambushes in the region of Djakovica known as Cabrat.  And for the first

20     you give a detailed description of how the members of the police were

21     injured, but for the second one you don't give as many details.

22             Did you -- could you describe for us your knowledge of the ambush

23     site for this second attack, that is, the 9th of May wherein Tomovic

24     Stanko and some members of the VJ were subjected to -- subject to an

25     attack by the terrorists.

Page 25272

 1        A.   Just a moment.  When the NATO forces arrived on the territory of

 2     the then-Yugoslavia, the terrorists entered Djakovica.  They had already

 3     been in Djakovica but not in such large numbers.  On that night - and

 4     this is just my operative information - a large group entered under the

 5     leadership of Arben Shkupi, a certain man called Lekaj and Aljbin Docaj.

 6     They immobilised the inhabitants of Djakovica, young people, and on the

 7     7th of May there was a mixed patrol of the MUP and the VJ --

 8        Q.   We have that, we have that in -- I'm talking about the second,

 9     about the second incident on the 9/5/1999, the 9th of May, 1999.

10        A.   Oh, the 9th of May.

11        Q.   The second half of that paragraph, the last -- the last sentence

12     in Serbian or the last portion in Serbian.

13        A.   What page?

14        Q.   Paragraph 32 of the [Previous translation continues]...

15        A.   Yes, it's all right.  I found it.  The terrorists in the Cabrat

16     neighbourhood, which is underneath a peak, a mountain peak, and it's

17     exclusively inhabited by Albanians, a mixed patrol set out to carry out

18     its usual tasks, its regular tasks.  Tomovic Stanko, a member of the

19     police, was shot at from an ambush and he was hit in the back of his head

20     and killed.  On this occasion Aleksandar Rakovic, a sergeant, was killed.

21     I knew this young man, he lived with his grandparents, he was an orphan,

22     Milanovic Dejan, Ljubomir Miric and Srdjan Krstic, and Ivica Mitrovic

23     were seriously wounded in that terrorist attack.  The attack was totally

24     unprovoked, they were simply on patrol, but they were ambushed and

25     attacked by terrorists.

Page 25273

 1        Q.   Could you describe from where the terrorists attacked these

 2     individuals, what -- from what structures they attacked?

 3        A.   The terrorists in this particular instance attacked from an

 4     attic, and they had special loop-holes.  Albanian houses have high walls

 5     around them, and they pushed out some of the bricks facing the street so

 6     that they could peer through those gaps and shoot from there.  In

 7     addition to this, the terrorists had something they called "kapadjiki"

 8     [phoen] in that area.  They could go from one yard to another, from one

 9     house to another.  So while the police were shooting at one house they

10     would already be in the second or third house in that row, firing from

11     there.  This was a perfidious method of fighting.  In some cases Albanian

12     civilians would be ploughing a field next to the road, and when a police

13     patrol or a VJ patrol came along, he would fire at them and flee to the

14     woods.

15        Q.   Now, in the course of performing your duties in Djakovica during

16     the time-period of the NATO bombings, did you have occasion to perform

17     on-site investigations for any NATO attacks in which civilians were -- in

18     which significant civilian casualties were experienced?

19        A.   Yes, in the Maja settlement which is between Djakovica and the

20     village of Bistrazin on the main road leading from Djakovica to Prizren

21     on the left-hand side.  There were some refugees living there from

22     Croatia and Serbian Krajina, some 50 or so people.  A man from the Serb

23     Krajina who had fled before an attack of the Croatian forces had brought

24     his horses there and was engaged in a transport business in Djakovica.

25     That night the village was attacked and quite a few people were killed

Page 25274

 1     and many were injured.  Inter alia, Darko Ulatovic [phoen] was killed, he

 2     was a retarded young man, and a waitress called Goca was killed and her

 3     child and her -- her daughter, that is.  And there were quite a few

 4     people who were wounded.  We managed to get some of them to hospital in

 5     Djakovica, and from there the most seriously injured were somehow

 6     transferred to the hospital in Pristina.

 7        Q.   And you mentioned the number of people involved that were

 8     casualties of this NATO strike.  What was the immediate effect of this

 9     event upon the civilians in Djakovica as you experienced?

10        A.   You mean in the Maja neighbourhood?  Well, people were upset,

11     Serbs, Albanians, Roma, and Egyptians, they were all uneasy and none of

12     them believed they would not be bombed or killed by anyone so they all

13     started moving out.  Serbs, Albanians, Roma, Egyptians, they were all

14     trying to leave, go to safety, and they were also afraid of the fighting

15     between the KLA and the police and the army because the KLA was entering

16     that area from every side and the area was no longer safe.

17        Q.   Did you have occasion to -- or did you have occasion to perform

18     any on-site investigations of any major incidents of civilian casualties

19     from NATO on any of the roadways surrounding Djakovica?

20        A.   Yes, I did.  This was in the village of Maja, and on the

21     Djakovica-Prizren road near the Bistrazinski bridge when the NATO planes

22     bombed two columns, two convoys, one which was on the way back from

23     Prizren towards Meja and another which had set out towards the border.

24        Q.   What were -- how would you describe the efforts of the MUP of the

25     SUP Djakovica in regards to this investigation -- this on-site

Page 25275

 1     investigation and with regards to the victims of the same?

 2        A.   We were informed that this incident had taken place in that area

 3     and we set out with several teams.  We even asked for an ambulance from

 4     the hospital in Djakovica and a vehicle that had been mobilised by the

 5     police.  So we set out to the scene.  What we saw there was horrible.  I

 6     was 50 years old at the time but I'm still suffering the consequences of

 7     what I saw to this day.  It might be a vulgar expression, but we were in

 8     blood up to our knees.  People were moaning, asking for help, crying out

 9     for help.  We tried to assist as best we could.  First we collected the

10     most seriously injured, then the ones who were less seriously injured,

11     and we sent them all to hospital in Djakovica.  They were admitted to

12     hospital there and the most seriously injured were transferred to

13     Pristina or perhaps to hospitals in Serbia, in the interior of Serbia.

14        Q.   And with respect to the victims in this instance what was the

15     ethnicity of the same?

16        A.   These people were Albanians.

17             JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Ivetic, if you go very briefly to page 30,

18     line 5, and then the answer at line 9, can I take it that's something

19     different?

20             MR. IVETIC:  Different from the one we're discussing now?

21             JUDGE BONOMY:  Yes.

22             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.

23             JUDGE BONOMY:  Although that question is identical, but can we

24     clarify who the attackers were in the incident at line 13 -- line 9 of

25     page 30.

Page 25276

 1             MR. IVETIC:  Absolutely.

 2        Q.   Mr. Zlatkovic, with respect to the attack on the refugee

 3     settlement at Maja -- Maja, M-a-j-a I believe it is, where the 50 or so

 4     people -- where the 50 or so people were situated, what -- when you say

 5     they were attacked at night and quite a few people were killed and

 6     injured at lines 15 and 16, including Darko Ulatovic, who was a retarded

 7     young man, could you tell us who was responsible for this attack?

 8        A.   I think NATO was responsible for that attack.

 9        Q.   Just for the sake of clarity, this incident occurred -- this

10     incident is a different incident than the one we were discussing on the

11     road wherein the -- wherein near the Bistrazin bridge there were ethnic

12     Albanian victims; is that accurate?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Okay.  If we could focus back again on the incident near the

15     Bistrazin bridge wherein the convoy was struck by NATO.  I think we have

16     a recording from the crime scene, recording at 6D295, and if we -- I

17     don't want to show the entire tape although we might at some point in

18     time tender it into evidence from the bar table.  It's only about 20

19     minutes long but I don't think we need to see the whole thing.  I have

20     some segments set up, if we could play the first segment, and if you

21     could describe for us if this is the -- if this comports with your

22     recollection of the scene.

23                           [Videotape played]

24             MR. IVETIC:

25        Q.   Was that the scene of the column of civilians that was struck on

Page 25277

 1     the roadway near the Bistrazin bridge by NATO forces?

 2        A.   From Maja, this is from Maja.

 3        Q.   And if we look at the next segment I believe it -- well, let's --

 4     you indicated some of these people had been sent -- one moment.

 5             JUDGE BONOMY:  Just before we move, we've got two references to

 6     Maja.

 7             MR. IVETIC:  It's a distinction that I guess is not coming

 8     through on the translation.  The one we're looking at is Meja, M-e-j-a --

 9             JUDGE BONOMY:  That's what I thought, and that is the second of

10     the two incidents?

11             MR. IVETIC:  That's correct.

12        Q.   And if we can look at the next -- the next segment from the

13     videotape, you indicated that certain people had been transported by the

14     help that arrived to the hospital in Djakovica of these ethnic Albanians.

15     If we could play this next portion of the tape.

16                           [Videotape played]

17             MR. IVETIC:

18        Q.   Does this comport with your recollection of the -- some of the

19     persons that were evacuated and does the date -- more importantly, does

20     the date at the bottom left coincide with your recollections of the

21     attack on the roadway outside Meja by NATO forces?

22        A.   The time and the date, yes, and this is the hospital in

23     Djakovica, yes.

24        Q.   And could you tell us what the safety circumstances were like for

25     conducting that investigation?

Page 25278

 1        A.   Very poor, very poor.  All of us were in danger.  When the planes

 2     flew over, some of my colleagues were so frightened that they began to

 3     vomit and flee towards a valley.

 4        Q.   And you indicated that the efforts to assist the people -- I have

 5     another short -- short video segment, 6D1633, which is some -- another

 6     tape, not the crime scene tape, bought rather a tape from a -- first of

 7     all, were there media journalists present at the site following the

 8     attack, regarding the efforts to ...

 9        A.   Yes.  Yes, the media were there.  I don't know who informed them,

10     but while we were doing our job they turned up.  It was towards the end

11     of our work when they arrived, and they filmed the whole event.  I can

12     tell you that I hadn't been home for two months, my family didn't know

13     what had happened to me.  In the evening they saw me on television

14     helping some people, and when I returned to Vranje people came up to me

15     to congratulate me on what I had done.

16        Q.   You indicated that your family didn't know what had happened to

17     you.  What were the abilities to communicate with the rest of Serbia like

18     in Djakovica during this time-period, the middle of April 1999?

19        A.   We couldn't call home because there were no mobile phones and no

20     regular lines.  Only those who had satellite telephones could perhaps use

21     those, but among the Serbs there weren't any.

22        Q.   Now if we could play the clip 6D1633, and if I could ask you

23     while the clip is playing to tell us if you can identify any of the

24     persons or scenes depicted and give us further information about the

25     same.  Again, this clip is short, it should be only about a minute long.

Page 25279

 1                           [Videotape played]

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Stop, stop.  I recognise policeman

 3     Dragan Stojanovic here, his family lived in the village of Dubrava, near

 4     Glodjane.  The terrorists beat up his brother.  This Dragan Stojanovic

 5     was a policeman in the police station in Djakovica, and here he's

 6     carrying a child in his arms and the mother of the child is carrying

 7     another one and another one is following them.

 8             MR. IVETIC:

 9        Q.   Are these -- are these his family or are these other persons?

10        A.   No, no.  Dragan Stojanovic is a Serb, he's a policeman, he worked

11     in Djakovica.  His family until the 24th of March, 1998, lived in the

12     village of Dubrava near Glodjane but they were constantly mistreated.

13        Q.   Okay, we're talking about this specific video footage here.  Who

14     is he carrying?

15        A.   He's carrying an Albanian child.

16        Q.   Was he one of the officers who was on the scene to offer

17     assistance to the victims of this NATO attack?

18        A.   Yes, yes, yes, he was.

19        Q.   Okay.  If we can play the clip further.

20                           [Videotape played]

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just a moment.  Here we see -- can

22     you go back a bit.  We also engaged the public utility company so that

23     the corpses of those who had been killed could be taken to the morgue in

24     Djakovica hospital and identified there.  Here we see the employees of

25     the public utility company attempting to load these dead people onto

Page 25280

 1     vehicles.

 2                           [Videotape played]

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just a moment.  Here I recognise

 4     myself, I'm in the last part, together with an employee of the utility

 5     company and another person.  We are helping a wounded woman, helping to

 6     get her to the health centre.

 7             MR. IVETIC:  Okay.  If we could just play the clip all the way

 8     through, I think there's only a little bit left.

 9                           [Videotape played]

10             MR. IVETIC:  Okay.  That's that.

11             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honour, just very briefly.  I note that no

12     transcript has been provided for this video or the previous -- I don't

13     mean to interrupt my colleague during his examination, but we have no

14     transcript.  So if he intends to rely on what is being said in this video

15     and the previous one, we would appreciate receiving a transcript.

16             JUDGE BONOMY:  What's the position, Mr. Ivetic?

17             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I believe that the pictures speak for

18     themselves and the commentary of Mr. Zlatkovic based upon his personal

19     experience is all that I'm relying upon.  I'm not relying on the -- the

20     news account or overlay on the video.

21             JUDGE BONOMY:  Yeah.  Now we have clarification of the date of

22     the second of these two events.  Can you clarify the position in relation

23     to the first one?

24             MR. IVETIC:

25        Q.   Mr. Zlatkovic, do you recall the first incident we talked about,

Page 25281

 1     the attack on the refugee centre at Maja, where the refugees from Croatia

 2     were situated, do you know when approximately that occurred in relation

 3     to this event perhaps or any date that you can provide us with?

 4        A.   I remember it was in April, both events were in April, I think --

 5     well, I can't give you the precise date.  I don't recall.  But it was

 6     around the 20th, 20 something.

 7        Q.   Okay.  And -- all right.  We have that.  Now if I could turn to

 8     6D536 for a moment, I believe this is another incident on one of the

 9     roadways, the communication Djakovica-Dolac towards the village of

10     Crmljanje, this is a document that hopefully will be getting up soon.

11             If you could take a moment to review this document, sir, and

12     maybe to assist with this kind of lengthy -- I can provide a hard copy to

13     the witness so as to speed things up and alleviate the need to have all

14     the pages on e-court for his review.  This is 6D536.

15             Do you -- do you recall this -- this incident and do you recall

16     the circumstances of the same and could you give us any additional

17     information with regard to this particular incident and this -- who is

18     responsible for this attack, for instance?

19        A.   Concerning this incident, it was my colleague Radovan Nikolic who

20     dealt with this.  I was not tasked with this case, so I'm not familiar

21     with what happened.

22        Q.   Fair enough.  Let's move along to --

23             JUDGE BONOMY:  So that document will not be admitted.

24             MR. IVETIC:  Okay.

25        Q.   If we can move along to your statement beginning at paragraph 39

Page 25282

 1     onwards talks about on-site investigations following a meeting at the end

 2     of April 1999.  Do you recall how long after this meeting with the chief

 3     of the OKP of the SUP Djakovica were the investigative teams able to

 4     actually go out to the scene in Reka Kec to perform their investigative

 5     work?

 6        A.   Could you please repeat your question, please.

 7        Q.   At paragraph 39 of your statement you describe being informed of

 8     the suspected existence of some bodies in the valley known as the Reka

 9     Kec, and then you talk about when conditions were made possible.  You --

10     the teams were sent out into the field.  Do you recall approximately how

11     long after finding the initial information were the investigators able to

12     go out onto the scene to perform their on-site investigations in the area

13     known as Reka Kec?

14        A.   After the information was received by the head of the criminal

15     police department in the area of Reka Kec, or Caragoj as they refer to

16     it, we learned of certain corpses and tried to set out the same day to

17     carry out an on-site investigation.  We were unable to reach Mrekovci

18     [phoen] because there were NATO air-strikes next to the border.  These

19     villages are some 30 kilometres from Djakovica next to the border.  We

20     tried several days to go there, and I think it took five or six days from

21     the moment when we were notified that there were corpses there to the

22     point at which we finally visited a location, I mean my team.

23        Q.   If I can ask a general question first.  In your statement you

24     describe at paragraph 42 how some of the bodies that you processed or

25     investigated were wearing uniforms.  Could you give us more details about

Page 25283

 1     that.

 2        A.   I can tell you this:  I told you that we had several attempts to

 3     reach those locations.  Finally, on the fifth or the sixth day we managed

 4     to go there.  In addition to the air-strikes there were also terrorists

 5     who were active in the area.  When we arrived at the scene we found I

 6     think between 20 and 25 of them in the area where I was with my team,

 7     between 20 and 25.  The bodies were mainly male.  The age was between 20

 8     and 30.  They had individual pieces of uniform on them, either black

 9     overalls or parts of camouflage uniforms.  On certain individuals we

10     found say camouflage shorts and black pants as well as boots.  In any

11     case, they had different clothing.

12        Q.   With respect to these bodies that your teams uncovered could you

13     describe for us what kind of positions these bodies were discovered in.

14     Are we talking about -- in terms of groupings.  Were there large

15     groupings, small groupings, individual bodies?  How would you describe

16     the specific bodies that were uncovered or recovered or processed as part

17     of these investigations up into the Reka Kec region?

18        A.   The bodies were found in different locations.  Some of them were

19     in attics of the houses there, others were in stables, then behind walls,

20     some of the bodies were in the nearby woods.  And for the most part we

21     would find individual bodies or pairs.

22        Q.   And the -- sir, if you could repeat what you said about the --

23     the part that you weren't sure whether it could be translated into

24     English because unfortunately it's not in the transcript and

25     unfortunately it's a word that I'm familiar with in Serbian so I can't

Page 25284

 1     assist in terms of completing your testimony in that regard.  Where the

 2     bodies were found you said that they were found and you mentioned a word

 3     and you said you were not sure how that translates into English.  Could

 4     you please repeat where in Serbian.

 5        A.   I will repeat.  Those were stables for cattle, we call them

 6     "pljevnje," or rather, that's where the feed is supposed to be.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  And we heard some allegations -- first of all, are

 8     you familiar with a joint check-point outside of Meja and did you have to

 9     go by that check-point in order to get to the sites that you investigated

10     as part of in on-site investigation?

11        A.   I did pass through.

12        Q.   We've heard some allegations here about bodies by that

13     check-point.  Did you have occasion to witness any bodies or any

14     investigative teams working on bodies at that check-point whatsoever

15     during this period of time?

16        A.   I conducted on-site investigations in Ramoc, Popovac, Korenica,

17     and towards Ponosevac.  At the place where the check-point was, when I

18     passed by, or rather, while I was there, I passed by on at least three or

19     four occasions.

20        Q.   Could you describe for us a little bit the procedures that were

21     followed with regard to these investigations in documenting the corpses

22     that were found or recovered.

23        A.   When a body of a killed soldier would be found or crime scene

24     technicians, usually it took finger-prints.  We used the so-called

25     dactyloscopic test so as to be able to compare that with the file that we

Page 25285

 1     may have or identification papers in case those people had ever had an ID

 2     issued anywhere in Yugoslavia.  That is how we went about identifying

 3     them.  We also paid attention to any tattoos that would be described, as

 4     well as items of clothing, footwear, and anything that could help us in

 5     further identification of those people.

 6        Q.   And approximately how many teams were out in the field

 7     simultaneously with respect to the various sites that were investigated?

 8        A.   Well, first of all the Djakovica SUP was short of staff.  We were

 9     unable to have five or six teams so as to be able to do the whole work in

10     a day.  We had three teams at the most, we would dispatch them.  We never

11     sent out large groups in the field because they could get hurt either by

12     NATO air-strikes or minefields planted by terrorists.  We didn't want to

13     have people being wounded or killed.  Usually we would have one, two, or

14     three teams; however, this took several days, over ten days I'd say.

15        Q.   You left, I believe, on May the 15th from Djakovica and were

16     reassigned back to the -- back to Vranje where you are from.  Was the

17     overall investigation completed by the time you had left the SUP

18     Djakovica on the 15th of May, 1999?

19        A.   Sometime in April I was wounded during a NATO air-strike in

20     Ljubunar.  I wasn't hit by a piece of shrapnel, but rather I simply

21     sprained my ankle.  I was injured.  So for about 15 to 20 days I was hors

22     de combat.  Around the 15th of April [as interpreted] I was allowed to

23     return home since I no longer felt I was of assistance to those there.  I

24     asked to be sent back, it was approved, and on the 15th of May, 1999, I

25     returned to Vranje.  We collected all the information in one place, we

Page 25286

 1     left it at the SUP.  We didn't know what to expect and we didn't want to

 2     have the information dispersed.  In any case, I don't know whether the

 3     overall investigation was completed.

 4        Q.   Just to clarify things, there's two dates -- it's the 15th of May

 5     that you returned to Vranje, is that correct?  There's two dates showing

 6     up in your answer and I think the 15th of May is mentioned in paragraph

 7     43 of your statement.  You returned to Vranje the 15th of May; is that

 8     correct?  You have to answer out loud, I'm sorry.

 9        A.   15 to 20 days before I left.  I asked to be sent back because I

10     was injured and they met my request.  On the 15th of May I left the

11     Djakovica SUP via Prizren, Sar-Planina, and Brezovica as well as

12     Urosevac, finally to reach Vranje.

13        Q.   And in the course of the investigation, at least for the

14     time-period that you were there performing the investigation, how many

15     bodies had been recovered, documented, and investigated in total, if you

16     know?

17        A.   As far as my team goes, I know that there were between 20 and 25.

18     As for the others, I don't know.  I don't know what they did.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I think I've completed all the direct

21     examination that I had foreseen for this witness, including the matters

22     that I had prepared this morning that were excess from the -- that didn't

23     make it into the written statement.  So I thank Your Honours for the

24     opportunity to prepare for this witness and I pass the witness.

25             JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.

Page 25287

 1             Mr. Zlatkovic, is this an incident about which you got no

 2     explanation?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm afraid I didn't understand.

 4     Would you please repeat.

 5             JUDGE BONOMY:  You became involved in this investigation at the

 6     end of April and you were involved for some time.  Now, during the time

 7     you were involved was there any explanation for how these bodies came to

 8     be there that came to light?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know how it was learned

10     that the bodies were there.  The several teams including mine were told

11     by the chief of the SUP that there were bodies in the valley.  As for how

12     they were killed, I truly don't know.  I'm not an expert in that field.

13             JUDGE BONOMY:  No, but you've been able to tell us how many other

14     bodies were killed because you were involved in the investigation, you

15     can tell us about snipers shooting people in the back of the head and you

16     can tell us about ambushes and so on as the result of the on-site

17     investigation.  Now, were you not able to piece together any explanation

18     of the cause of death of these bodies or the circumstances in which they

19     came to be killed?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm afraid there was a

21     misunderstanding.  The people were killed by bullets; however, I don't

22     know whether they were killed in combat or in some other way.  The

23     investigation was supposed to be completed; however, at a certain point I

24     left and I don't know what was then done subsequently.  I think ballistic

25     expertise was supposed to take place and additional checks.

Page 25288

 1             JUDGE BONOMY:  Yeah, but just being a bit more basic than that,

 2     the evidence you've given suggests that some of them may have been

 3     combatants.  But if they were killed in combat you would expect that

 4     whoever was involved would have arranged for the battle-field to be

 5     cleared up or disclosed that there was a need for that to be done.  Is

 6     that not the situation that you would normally expect?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As for the term of clearing up

 8     terrain, I'm not certain what it actually means since it doesn't exist in

 9     the police.  It is most likely that they were killed in combat and I

10     conclude that based on the positions at which they were, these were

11     elevations, locations from which one could open fire.  We collected spent

12     cartridges, projectiles, parts of hand-grenades, all that was collected

13     in order to try and shed light on the crime, or rather, the incident

14     which had taken place.

15             JUDGE BONOMY:  But do I rightly understand, though, that as far

16     as you're concerned, with whom they might have been engaged in combat

17     remains a mystery?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You are right, Your Honour, I still

19     don't know.

20             JUDGE BONOMY:  You don't find that strange if it was a genuine

21     combat?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is most likely that two sides

23     clashed, I mean the terrorists side and ...

24             JUDGE BONOMY:  And who?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the other side was the

Page 25289

 1     police, army, as one would expect in a time of war.

 2             JUDGE BONOMY:  Well, if it was the police, would you not know

 3     that?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  I'm a crime inspector, it is

 5     separate in terms of administration at the level of the republican SUP.

 6     In the SUP itself we are talking about two separate administrations.

 7     Within the SUP we have the criminal police department and then there is

 8     the uniformed police department.

 9             JUDGE BONOMY:  So in your system the criminal investigators, such

10     as yourself, would be sent out to investigate deaths that may have been

11     in combat without being told one way or another whether the police had

12     been involved in combat in that area because they were in a different

13     police department?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We were not told that.  We carried

15     out on-site investigations in order to collect information and to gather

16     facts in order to arrive at a conclusion subsequently.

17             JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you.

18             Now, Mr. Bakrac, you will have cross-examination, will you?

19             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as I have already asked

20     you, I wish to cross-examine tomorrow, if I may.  If there is going to be

21     any, it shouldn't last more than five to ten minutes; therefore, I won't

22     need much time tomorrow, it will take only a minimum of time.

23             JUDGE BONOMY:  No, I understand that.  But you don't know at the

24     moment whether you will have any cross-examination?

25             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it could happen that I

Page 25290

 1     won't have any.  If there will be any, that will depend on the documents

 2     which I will review, and in any case it will be short.

 3             JUDGE BONOMY:  And I take it, Ms. Kravetz, your position remains

 4     the same as it was?

 5             MS. KRAVETZ:  Yes, Your Honour, that I will proceed tomorrow and

 6     I will also be very brief.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Zlatkovic, connected with the procedural

 9     difficulties we were discussing this morning, it's not possible to

10     proceed further at this stage with the hearing of your evidence, it will

11     have to continue tomorrow; that will be at 9.00 tomorrow morning, it will

12     be in this courtroom.  So you need to be back here ready to continue at

13     9.00.  Meanwhile, it is an important rule that you must have no

14     communication with anyone at all about any aspect of the evidence in this

15     case.  You can talk to whoever you like about whatever you like as long

16     as you have no communication about the evidence in the case.

17             Now could you please leave the courtroom with the usher and we

18     will see you again tomorrow at 9.00.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

20                           [The witness stands down]

21                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.56 p.m.,

22                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 15th day of

23                           April, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.