Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 25413

 1                           Wednesday, 16 April 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

 5             JUDGE BONOMY:  Good morning, everyone.

 6             To continue with the evidence of 6D-2 we require to go straight

 7     into closed session.

 8                           [Closed session]

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Page 25414











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Page 25510

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22                           [Open session]

23             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Hannis.

25             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honour, I had an objection to raise concerning

Page 25511

 1     the exhibit 6D614.  I have a general objection about the process and I

 2     have a more specific objection about several portions of it in that I

 3     don't think they have any relevance or probative value for us.  There's a

 4     big section on non-violent crimes committed by unknown perpetrators

 5     between July 1998 --

 6             JUDGE BONOMY:  Just hold on a second.

 7             Mr. Lukic, is the whole of the relevant -- or what you consider

 8     the relevant parts of that exhibit now translated?

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour, it is.

10             JUDGE BONOMY:  Now, Mr. Hannis, this document is marked for

11     identification, so what will happen is that there will be a filing from

12     the Lukic Defence inviting us to admit the document, including the

13     translation, and at that point you should respond.

14             MR. HANNIS:  I will, Your Honour.  Thank you.

15             JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you.

16             The next witness, Mr. Lukic?

17             MR. LUKIC:  Our next witness is our expert,

18     Mr. Branislav Simonovic.

19             JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you.

20                           [The witness entered court]

21             JUDGE BONOMY:  Good afternoon, Dr. Simonovic.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE BONOMY:  Would you please make the solemn declaration to

24     speak the truth by reading aloud that document now being shown to you.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.  Thank you.

Page 25512

 1             I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

 2     and nothing but the truth.

 3             JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you.  Please be seated.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5             JUDGE BONOMY:  You will now be examined by Mr. Lukic.

 6             Mr. Lukic.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8                           WITNESS:  BRANISLAV SIMONOVIC

 9                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

10                           Examination by Mr. Lukic:

11        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Professor.

12        A.   Good afternoon.

13        Q.   You asked me to make a few corrections in the introductory part

14     before we move on to the actual subject matter.  The introductory part of

15     your findings, that doesn't pertain to the police but you insisted we

16     clarified certain points.

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could all microphones

18     please be switched off, we cannot hear the speaker.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Could you please look at page 4.

21        A.   I already have it open.

22        Q.   What it says here, the commander of the collective supreme

23     commander.

24        A.   As the head of the federal state ex officio, this should be

25     deleted.  Only the word "commander" should be there and it should replace

Page 25513

 1     the words that should be deleted, the ones that you referred to.  Is that

 2     all right now?  So the sentence reads as follows:  "As the head of the

 3     federal state he is ex officio the commander of the Army of Yugoslavia,"

 4     and so on and so forth.  Then it all fits in.

 5             JUDGE BONOMY:  It's finding it, Mr. Lukic, that's the main

 6     problem.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Give me one second.

 8             MR. STAMP:  I think it's the first paragraph of page 3.

 9             JUDGE BONOMY:  Page 3, yes.

10             MR. STAMP:  In English.

11             JUDGE BONOMY:  I'm on the wrong page.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Would you now please tell us about page 6, what should be

14     corrected?

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could we please have a

16     reference.

17             JUDGE BONOMY:  Just hold on a second.

18             First of all, what's the exhibit number for this document,

19     Mr. Lukic?

20             MR. LUKIC:  The exhibit number is 6D668, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE BONOMY:  All right.

22             And now we're on page 6 of which --

23             MR. LUKIC:  B/C/S and we are looking for the English translation.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is the first paragraph of the

25     text in Serbian, so it would be the first paragraph of the text in -- the

Page 25514

 1     first paragraph --

 2             JUDGE BONOMY:  All right.  Tell us where?

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Just a moment.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  It should be page 7 in English.

 6             JUDGE BONOMY:  Well, what's the heading of the section?

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Professor, what's the heading of the section?

 9        A.   Well, the heading of the section is:  Division of competencies in

10     the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, Roman numeral I then, so it is the

11     third line from the bottom, the first paragraph.

12             MR. STAMP:  Your Honours, that is --

13             MR. LUKIC:  Page 8 --

14             MR. STAMP:  -- page 4 in the English.

15             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honour --

16             JUDGE BONOMY:  It's --

17             MR. ZECEVIC:  If I may be of assistance.

18             JUDGE BONOMY:  It's in page 8 as far as -- sorry.

19             MR. ZECEVIC:  I think the witness is referring to the previous

20     change that he did right now.  He was citing the provision of the first

21     change that he did already.  Now we are talking about the second one, if

22     I -- if I'm correct, which is on page 6 of the Serbian, second paragraph.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I say something?

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Do you know where it is in English?

Page 25515

 1        A.   Well, in the Serbian text it's page 6, so I have this other

 2     suggestion.  Page 6, the second paragraph, the second line --

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Mr. Stamp is right, it's on page 4, second paragraph.

 4     It's page 5 in the e-court.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I read it out?  The first

 6     sentence in the second paragraph:  "The constitution of the FRY from 1992

 7     establishes" -- I apologise for reading so fast.

 8             "The constitution of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia from 1992

 9     specified that the command of the Yugoslav Army should be the

10     responsibility of," and now before the "Supreme Defence Council" the

11     following words should be added:  "The president of the FRY in accordance

12     with decisions of the Supreme Defence Council."

13             So that's the constitutional wording.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Now page 7 in B/C/S and page 5 in the English version, otherwise

16     page 6 in e-court.  Paragraph 2 in the English version.

17        A.   Can I say what it is?  The last paragraph on that page --

18        Q.   In the B/C/S version I assume?

19        A.   Yes, yes.  The second sentence starts with the following wording:

20     "He or she proposes to the National Assembly candidates for presidents

21     and judges of the Serbian Constitutional Court proclaims laws by decrees,

22     conducts the Republic of Serbia's affairs with other states and

23     international organizations."

24             And now brackets should be opened there and the following wording

25     should be inserted:  "(Upon the adoption of the constitution of the FRY

Page 25516

 1     these regulations came under the jurisdiction of the federal state)," --

 2        Q.   You said regulations, did you mean regulations or affairs?

 3        A.   I beg your pardon, affairs, that's what I meant, these affairs

 4     came under the jurisdiction of the federal state.  If I said

 5     "regulations," then I misspoke.  And then this same sentence, this very

 6     same sentence continues as follows.  May I continue?

 7             "Grants pardons, confers medals and awards pursuant to the law,"

 8     and now add the following wording:  "Although this law had not been

 9     passed and therefore the norm was not applied."

10             So then the next sentence continues as follows:  "Forms," it

11     should be a capital F, and then the rest reads as is stated here.

12        Q.   Could you now slowly read this entire section so that we have it

13     right, just do it slowly, please.

14        A.   Yes, yes.  It's the last -- it's the second sentence in the last

15     paragraph.

16             "He or she proposes to the National Assembly candidates for

17     presidents and judges of the Constitutional Court of Serbia, proclaims

18     laws by decree, conducts the Republic of Serbia's affairs with other

19     states, and international organizations (upon adoption of the FRY

20     constitution these affairs came under the jurisdiction of the federal

21     state)," and then the text reads on as follows:  "Grants pardons, confers

22     medals and awards pursuant to the law, although this law had not been

23     passed and therefore the norm was not applied.  Forms," capital F, "forms

24     expert," and so on and so forth.

25             JUDGE BONOMY:  I doubt if a full stop is appropriate there.

Page 25517

 1     Surely the -- the way certainly the punctuation is provided in the

 2     English, each of these parts is separated by a semicolon, and that makes

 3     sense and the last section is the one beginning:  "Forms expert and other

 4     services."

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That would be possible, yes, a

 6     semicolon, it would fit in grammatically and logically.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Also in English version we have a wording:  "The

 8     president of the Federal Republic of Serbia," so "the Federal" should be

 9     removed and president of the Republic of Serbia should stay in the

10     English text.  The same paragraph at the -- in the -- the same -- fifth

11     page, it's five lines from the bottom.

12             JUDGE BONOMY:  The next sentence is correct:  "The president of

13     the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia ..."?

14             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

15             JUDGE BONOMY:  Thanks.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Now we're moving on to page 9, Professor, the last paragraph,

18     right?

19        A.   Just a moment, please.

20        Q.   It is page 6 in the English version, page 7 in e-court?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Paragraph 4 in the English version.

23        A.   Page 9 in the text in Serbian, the third paragraph, the third

24     paragraph, the second sentence, it should be deleted from this text.

25        Q.   Read the sentence.

Page 25518

 1        A.   I will.

 2        Q.   Just a moment, please.  Read the sentence without any comments,

 3     just read the sentence that should be deleted.

 4        A.    "The constitution gives that function to the collective organ,

 5     that is to say the Supreme Defence Council, which includes the presidents

 6     of the member republics as well."

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We could not find it in

 8     English.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Thank you.  This is the last correction, page 55, otherwise it is

11     page 34 in the English version.  In e-court it's page 35, paragraph 3.

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Wait a moment, please.

14                           [Defence counsel confer]

15             MR. LUKIC:  And it's page 55 in Serbian version.  In the e-court

16     then probably 56 because we have a number -- we need number 55.

17        Q.   [Interpretation] What sort of an amendment is required on this

18     page?

19        A.   We have to delete the third paragraph, some words have remained,

20     decided on certain rules and duties ..." well this part has to be deleted

21     from the text.

22             MR. LUKIC:  [Previous translation continues]...  these words at

23     all, so I think this correction should be made in the English version.

24     There is actually -- yeah --

25             JUDGE BONOMY:  How does that paragraph begin?

Page 25519

 1             MR. LUKIC:  "Relations between state administration organs ..."

 2             JUDGE BONOMY:  And where is --

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Actually, something -- the last sentence probably

 4     should be corrected because -- I think that the best way is if the

 5     Professor reads the last sentence from the previous paragraph, and that

 6     should be translated instead of the last sentence from this paragraph in

 7     the English version.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The last sentence reads as follows:

 9     "This was already discussed in relation to other legal provisions, other

10     legislative provisions."

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Professor, are those all the amendments we wanted to make or that

13     you wanted to make?

14        A.   Yes.  When I asked for these amendments it was to avoid any

15     confusion in the text.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at P1505, please.

18             [In English] And I would kindly ask the assistance of the usher

19     [Previous translation continues] ...  some documents from the Professor.

20     We need page 2 in both versions -- no, sorry.  It is still page 1 in the

21     English version.  I'm sorry.  Number 2, we have to see number 2.

22        Q.   [Interpretation] Professor, we'll go to the very heart of the

23     matter first.  You have paragraph Roman II in the Serbian version, Arabic

24     2 in the English.  Can you see what it says here, what the tasks of the

25     staff are?

Page 25520

 1        A.   Yes, you can see the tasks of the staff here, they're defined in

 2     the decision on forming the staff, its task is in accordance with that

 3     decision, it is to plan, organize, and manage the work of organizational

 4     units in the ministry; and also, it has to manage attached units to

 5     prevent terrorism in Kosovo and Metohija.  And in the second paragraph --

 6     am I going too fast?  In the second paragraph the staff's tasks said to

 7     be planning and organizing and uniting the work of organizational units

 8     of the ministry and Kosovo and Metohija and they have to carry out

 9     complex security-related tasks.

10        Q.   Would it be possible for such staff tasks to be carried out in

11     practice?

12        A.   In my opinion, on the basis of the analysis I carried out while

13     studying the literature and while analysing the organization of the

14     staff, the task or the tasks defined here couldn't be carried out in

15     practice.  It was an impossible mission to carry out such tasks, and we

16     will discuss the reasons which it was impossible over the next few days.

17     I don't think the staff could have planned or organized or led the work

18     of organizational units of the ministry, and it couldn't have done that

19     in the case of the attached units.

20        Q.   What would implementing this decision have required?

21        A.   In order to implement the decision, in practice it would have

22     been necessary to establish completely different relationships which are

23     defined by the rules on the internal organization of the Ministry of the

24     Interior.  Such rules determine certain relationships, certain

25     obligations of various organizational units within the system of the

Page 25521

 1     ministry from the top down.  So some new body could have carried out the

 2     tasks assigned.  It was necessary to change all the relationships, to

 3     have new rules, it was necessary to have the organizational relationship

 4     completely changed.  The organizational relationship that existed

 5     pursuant to the rules that regulated police operations.  But this wasn't

 6     done and it could not have been done at the time.

 7             JUDGE BONOMY:  So, Professor, did you work out the solution to

 8     the conundrum, can you tell us why this was done?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm prepared to make

10     the utmost effort to try and explain this to the Court, to try and

11     explain why such a decision was formulated, a decision that couldn't be

12     carried out, and I tried to explain the entire organizational system in

13     existence, the one that I referred to in my report, and this system made

14     it impossible in fact to carry out this decision, to implement the

15     decision.  Can I start at the first level of my analysis and then I'll

16     follow any suggestions you may have, and I'll be quite happy to be guided

17     by you.

18             JUDGE BONOMY:  No, I don't want to disturb the way in which

19     Mr. Lukic intends to present this.  I thought perhaps you had a simple

20     answer to the conundrum, but if you don't perhaps it should be developed

21     in questions by Mr. Lukic.

22             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

23        Q.   [Interpretation] In the transcript there's an interpretation

24     which means rules.  Can you tell us the name of the document that you

25     referred to that should be changed?

Page 25522

 1        A.   Yes, if we are to discuss the system that required changes --

 2     well, for the system to change one should have started with the rules

 3     book on the internal organization of the Ministry of Internal Affairs, so

 4     this is a rules book or these are rules adopted by the Ministry of the

 5     Interior, and these rules regulate the system of internal organization

 6     and of leadership within the ministry, from the top down.  And the tasks

 7     assigned to the staff if they were to be carried out it would be

 8     necessary to change the entire system.  Why wasn't that possible at the

 9     time?  Well for two reasons.  One was a formal legal reason and there was

10     another substantial reason.  May I continue?  What's the formal legal

11     reason?  What should have been changed?  Assigned to the staff tasks that

12     they could carry out within the system in existence in the Ministry of

13     the Interior.  Well, it would have been necessary to issue a new rules

14     book, and these rules would have to be adopted at governmental level.

15     The rules is a document that determines the internal organizational

16     systems within each ministry.  One of the rules books is the book that

17     dealt with the internal organization with the Ministry of the Interior,

18     but to act in this way in accordance with the law in force at the time,

19     it would have been necessary to issue a new rules book with a fairly

20     complex procedure contained within it.  And one you would have had to

21     have in the document called the decree on the principles for the internal

22     organization and systemization of work posts in ministries, and in

23     special organizations --

24             JUDGE BONOMY:  I take it all of this is clearly set out in the

25     report, Mr. Lukic, which --

Page 25523

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Actually it's not.  We have to go through some

 2     points.

 3             JUDGE BONOMY:  Well, what's the report all about then?  Because

 4     it's a very heavy document to read and to take in.  There's a limited

 5     extent to which I've been able to commit that all to memory and I'm

 6     disclosing that by my intervention.  But surely the purpose of bringing

 7     an expert here with a report is that the report should set out his

 8     position clearly and we shouldn't have to listen to all of this but we

 9     should be hearing sharp, pointed questions and short answers clarifying

10     things.

11             MR. LUKIC:  Okay, I'll try to continue that way.

12             JUDGE BONOMY:  It's just I'm expressing anxiety since we have a

13     whole catalogue of experts coming later.  The whole point of this is to

14     identify the answers to the conundrums in the report.  I want a simple

15     answer to the question why a minister of the government is passing an

16     order that just cannot be implemented.

17             MR. LUKIC:  I asked the same question --

18             JUDGE BONOMY:  And it doesn't look as though there is a simple

19     answer, which is a disappointment, but please continue.

20             MR. LUKIC:  By presenting the expert analysis --

21             JUDGE BONOMY:  I mean there's an English saying that where

22     there's a will there's a way; in other words, if you want to do something

23     you can achieve it, to hell with the rules.

24             MR. LUKIC:  In police --

25             JUDGE BONOMY:  The answer here that we're getting is:  No, the

Page 25524

 1     rules are there and you can't do anything because the rules stop you.

 2     Well, I have a great big question mark over that.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  We'll try --

 4             JUDGE BONOMY:  -- in relation to the former Yugoslavia.  So let's

 5     be realistic about this and try to get to answers, real, genuine answers

 6     to the questions that trouble the Trial Chamber.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  We'll try, but we think that in policing you cannot

 8     go away from the rules, otherwise it wouldn't be police.  So I think that

 9     our evidence showed that this solution wasn't implemented and we are

10     trying to explain why it wasn't implemented.

11             JUDGE BONOMY:  Well, please continue.

12             MR. STAMP:  Your Honour, I was just informed, firstly, the booth

13     is requesting that we preface all questions to the witness with a page

14     and a page number if we're referring to the report because they are

15     having significant problems --

16             JUDGE BONOMY:  Well, the answer to that is we're not referring to

17     the report at the moment apparently so --

18             MR. STAMP:  If we are.

19             Now, to get to the issues which are -- which you were referring

20     to at this point, I didn't object when the witness was asked to offer an

21     opinion, which is strikingly different from what he says in the report.

22     And I think perhaps we could address this at the end -- maybe in five

23     minutes at the end of today's session because it would be very difficult

24     for the Prosecution to deal with situations repeatedly occurring where

25     Rule 94 statements are not complete in terms of the fundamental

Page 25525

 1     propositions that are stated in those statements.

 2             JUDGE BONOMY:  Yeah.

 3             So there is already concern, I can tell you, Mr. Lukic, on the

 4     Bench and we're also concerned about the witness's belief that he's going

 5     to be here for several days because that is not our understanding of the

 6     position.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  I think that he just expressed his willingness to be

 8     here as long as possible.

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Professor --

10        A.   Yes, please.

11        Q.   -- we have to give answers that are brief and to the point.

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Just a minute.  Let me put my question first.  You told us about

14     the procedure to change the rules book.  You said that the approval of

15     the cabinet was required for that and that it was a demanding process.

16     Now that we're dealing with regulations, was it possible according to the

17     existing legislation to disrupt the relations of functioning, planning,

18     organizing, and leading within the ministry and the public security

19     sector by way of this decision on establishing the staff?

20        A.   This decision could not have disrupted the relations that had

21     been established by a piece of legislation that was of a higher level and

22     that pertained to the entire ministry.  This is why that individual

23     enactment could not have been implemented at that particular time, in

24     that particular area.

25        Q.   Now let us look at P1044.  Professor, we have seen this document

Page 25526

 1     a number of times during the trial here.  This document comes from 1996.

 2     We see that at that period of time there was a MUP staff?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Can it be seen from this document whether the system of reporting

 5     was disrupted within the MUP, owing to the existence of the MUP staff for

 6     Kosovo and Metohija?

 7        A.   This document shows that the system of reporting was not

 8     disrupted within the existing system, because in this document it is

 9     stated that organizational units and secretariats need to report about

10     their work the Ministry of the Interior.  But in paragraph 5, which I do

11     not have in front of me, in item 5 of this document in the Serbian

12     language it says -- could that be shown to me?  Could I see item 5,

13     please?  The following page.  It says there that the secretariats of the

14     interior in Kosovo need to inform and need to report to the staff -- MUP

15     staff in addition to the ministry, the MUP staff functioning in Pristina,

16     and this was another side of reporting.

17             MR. LUKIC:  [Previous translation continues]...  in B/C/S.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  So based on this document we

19     can see that the system of organizational units was not changed, the

20     system that was established by the rules, the rules that I have mentioned

21     and that we will be discussing later.  However, in order for something

22     else to be introduced into the system this dispatch was adopted, this

23     decision of the ministry, introducing the MUP staff under item 5 as one

24     part of the system, as a body, as an auxiliary body that was to be

25     reported to in parallel in addition to reporting to the Ministry of the

Page 25527

 1     Interior.  And this pertains only to the seven secretariats existing in

 2     Kosovo.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now see in e-court Exhibit

 6     6D1305.

 7        Q.   Professor, although this document is very important it hasn't

 8     been translated.  We have an older version.  Just a moment, please.  We

 9     will try to use that document, that version, because the difference is

10     minimal.  The one we are showing is valid.

11        A.   At the time.

12        Q.   Yes, at the time.  We just need to find the English document.  I

13     need Article 7 of this document.

14             MR. STAMP:  Your Honours, this segment of the new documents,

15     majority of the new documents on the list for this witness have not been

16     translated; however, I think this is a later version, one-year later

17     version of a document already in evidence what I'm trying to find --

18             JUDGE BONOMY:  That's what Mr. Lukic is trying to do as well.

19             MR. STAMP:  Very well.

20             MR. LUKIC:  My learned friend across asked for five minutes to

21     address you, and I think that we also need those five minutes to organize

22     ourselves better.

23             Yeah, now we have it.  It's P1072.

24             JUDGE BONOMY:  Well, deal with this question and then we can hear

25     what Mr. Stamp has to say.

Page 25528

 1             MR. LUKIC:  It opens the whole set of questions.  We have to deal

 2     with this document which is basis for functioning of MUP.  We have to go

 3     through several paragraphs.

 4             JUDGE BONOMY:  And this isn't dealt with in the report?

 5             MR. LUKIC:  But it needs further explanation.

 6             JUDGE BONOMY:  The report deals with all sorts of things that

 7     have got not a lot to do with the police.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  You know that we had a problem with the expert at

 9     that time, so we asked for extension of time.

10             JUDGE BONOMY:  Yeah, but could this not all have been confined to

11     police expertise and much more focused rather than going through

12     constitutional relationships between the federal republic and the

13     republics and dealing with the army and the command structure and so on?

14             MR. LUKIC:  I agree with Your Honour, but I didn't write it.

15             JUDGE BONOMY:  No, but you commissioned it presumably and ought

16     to have given instructions that confined it to what's relevant.

17             MR. LUKIC:  Our instruction was simply what it was -- the title

18     of this document, but it went further.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Stamp, is there something you want to add to

21     what you said earlier?

22             MR. STAMP:  Briefly, Your Honours.  I would just ask that if it

23     becomes necessary for an expert who has given a 92 -- a Rule 94 report to

24     say something that isn't new, that is significantly new, especially if it

25     is by way of an opinion relevant to the issues before the Court, if

Page 25529

 1     perhaps we could be notified of that in the notification that we are to

 2     get the week before.  That's all I would wish to add.  I would just add

 3     that I hope that it would be a rare situation where that happens, but if

 4     it does become necessary we need to be notified before we get to court.

 5             JUDGE BONOMY:  Well, we wonder if that should happen at all

 6     unless it's something that's cropped up and wasn't foreseen for some good

 7     reason.  The report should deal with everything that the witness is going

 8     to give an opinion on, and we should not be expected to explore a wider

 9     area with the witness apart from, in our opinion, the importance of being

10     told in advance what an expert is going to speak about and say.  It does

11     seem to us grossly unfair to any opponent to put in a report that in the

12     main has nothing directly to do with the real issues to be addressed by

13     the expert and then to start asking him orally to expand upon the few

14     opinions he has expressed on the area that really matters as far as the

15     case for this accused is concerned.

16             So, Mr. Lukic, I hope you will make good use of the time

17     available to you overnight to decide whether, first of all, there are

18     parts of the report that we do not really need to admit; and secondly, to

19     focus the questions on the important issues but confine them to what's

20     absolutely necessary, to clarify the terms of the report on the important

21     and relevant issues.

22             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, previously presenting expert findings in

23     front of this Court I was told not to dwell on the expert report but to

24     tell something new if there is something new, not to repeat what's in the

25     report.

Page 25530

 1             JUDGE BONOMY:  Yeah, but that's to deal with things that may be

 2     arisen that were not previously foreseen and that it's only right that

 3     the witness should have an opportunity to address.  What we don't expect

 4     is that the real guts of your evidence will not be in the report.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  I don't think that's the case, but we'll try to tie

 6     our extra testimony with the report.

 7             JUDGE BONOMY:  I hope -- is this the witness where at one stage

 8     the anticipated evidence in chief was going to be ten hours and that

 9     changed?

10             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE BONOMY:  Well, it's very difficult to imagine in this

12     Tribunal where reports are an essential part of the presentation of the

13     evidence of an expert that that expert -- that that witness would give

14     evidence for anything approaching that length of time.

15             MR. LUKIC:  You know that we changed --

16             JUDGE BONOMY:  Yes, indeed, and I assume that that is now a

17     realistic assessment of the position, perhaps might even be generous.

18             So with any luck we should deal with most of the evidence of this

19     witness tomorrow.

20             Well, Professor, we have to bring our sitting for today to an end

21     at this stage and resume it tomorrow, which means you will have to return

22     here to resume your evidence at 9.00 tomorrow morning.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Thank you, Your Honour.  I

24     have understood.  Everything will be fine.

25             JUDGE BONOMY:  You may now leave the courtroom with the usher.

Page 25531

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.

 2                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 3                           [The witness stands down]

 4             JUDGE BONOMY:  And we shall resume at 9.00 tomorrow.

 5                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.31 p.m.,

 6                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 17th day of

 7                           April, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.