Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 25655

1 Monday, 21 April 2008

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Good morning, everyone. The witness we have this

6 morning is 6D-1, and we shall now go into private session for that

7 evidence -- sorry, closed session for that evidence.

8 [Closed session]

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

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13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

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Page 25656











11 Pages 25656-25752 redacted. Closed session.















Page 25753

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 [Open session]

8 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

10 IC194 were two documents used with the witness 6D-2. There are

11 now available English translations, they have been uploaded into e-court.

12 In the absence of any argument to the contrary, we shall admit these

13 under seal.

14 Mr. Ivetic.

15 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, we at this time have no further

16 witnesses except for joint witnesses, obviously, to call. I do bring to

17 Your Honour's attention it's our understanding 6D668, which was the

18 report of expert witness Simonovic, there was some confusion as to

19 whether that needed to be specifically identified and requested to be put

20 into evidence. It still has the status of MFI, although I believe a full

21 translation is available and in e-court and was even available at the

22 time the witness was here. And that of course subject to pending matters

23 with respect to documents and then a request for a -- or a motion that we

24 will file for submitting documents from the bar table, for which we would

25 ask for the time-period to run with this upcoming break and to have the

Page 25754

1 due date be after the break, we would not be having anymore positive

2 evidence apart from the bar table motion and the joint witnesses of

3 various natures that the other parties have along with our Defence. So

4 at this time we have no further witness to call in these proceedings.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: So subject to a number of qualifications which

6 I'll specify in a moment, for the avoidance of any doubt, you're now

7 closing your Defence case?

8 MR. IVETIC: That's correct, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

10 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis, two things that you can assist me with

12 at the moment. 6D668, which is the report of Simonovic is marked for

13 identification. There were a number of elements of that that caused some

14 concern because they were clearly outwith the realm of the expertise of

15 the witness; however, the witness did not claim to have, for example, any

16 expertise in constitutional law. He confined his claim to expertise to

17 the area of the operation of the MUP, and I use that expression in the

18 widest possible sense. It's not our inclination to chop this report up;

19 it's our inclination to make our assessment of it in our final

20 deliberations, taking account of all the evidence bearing on it.

21 It's not beyond the bounds of possibility that we could decide

22 that an expert that we had allowed to give evidence as an expert turned

23 out not to be one in our judgement at the end of the day and we would not

24 have regard, for example, to opinions he expressed for that reason. So

25 there can be issues of weight that are very important issues in dealing

Page 25755

1 with the expert evidence as well as other evidence, and to try and make

2 that assessment now is unrealistic. So unless you have an objection that

3 you can specify we would be inclined to remove the status of marked for

4 identification from this report.

5 MR. HANNIS: No, in light of your remarks, Your Honour, I'm

6 comfortable with that. Thank you.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: And the second thing relates to the report and

8 it's this. So that there's no misunderstanding of our ruling on what

9 accompanies a report, in our order on procedure we said that as a general

10 rule the Trial Chamber will only admit those parts of the report and

11 further material that's put to the expert during his oral testimony. The

12 sources used by an expert in compiling his or her report will not be

13 admitted wholesale.

14 Now, the reason for that provision is to stop a practice that has

15 happened in at least one other case here, where whole books were being

16 presented -- sort of dumped on the Trial Chamber when only a very small

17 part of the book was ever discussed. And parties have taken note of this

18 and have applied it, I think, in their approach to the presentation of

19 evidence. In case there's any doubt in your mind, however, where a

20 report refers to an exhibit which is, say, a decision or a report of some

21 kind and discusses, albeit briefly, that report will be admitted along

22 with the report itself or that document will be admitted, and we will

23 look at it just in the same way as we look at documents admitted through

24 witness statements as long as they are discussed to some extent in the

25 witness statement.

Page 25756

1 So by admitting 6D668, while we won't be admitting books

2 wholesale insofar as any might be referred to in there, we will be

3 admitting decisions and other similar documents that are discussed to

4 some extent.

5 MR. HANNIS: I'm unclear, Your Honour, do those documents

6 referred to in his report have a separate exhibit number?

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Every -- I think every one does.

8 MR. IVETIC: It's my understanding each one has a separate either

9 6D, P, or some other number.

10 MR. HANNIS: Okay.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: I think everything there -- I don't think there

12 are documents that have not been given an exhibit number.

13 MR. HANNIS: That was just a logistical concern. I'm satisfied

14 with that, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Ivetic, we note that your case rests

16 subject to the evidence yet to be led in relation to handwriting, subject

17 to the joint expert evidence, and subject to clarification of the

18 position of 6D614. Now, we require submissions in writing upon which

19 portions of 6D614 should be admitted into evidence, including the pages

20 that should be admitted and referencing the witness to whom those

21 portions were put with transcript and date references. And that ties in

22 with the other qualification to your closure of the case which is subject

23 to a bar table motion which we understand you wish to make. Now, that

24 bar table motion should include any portion of 6D614 which you seek to

25 have admitted albeit it has not been referred to by any witness, and that

Page 25757

1 of course would require you to set out the relevance and the probative

2 value of the tendered portion.

3 Now, you have indicated a number of times that you would be

4 tendering documents from the bar table from time to time to assist us to

5 keep on top of the exercise. That has not happened. So this will be a

6 once-and-for-all bar table motion, and if you give us a moment we'll

7 discuss the time-scale bearing in mind what you've just said to us.

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic, at the end of General Lazarevic's case

10 we allowed a week for a bar table motion. In your case we acknowledge

11 that this forthcoming break involves the Orthodox Easter, and therefore

12 is a holiday period for those most closely involved in the case. So

13 allowing for that, we will require the bar table motion to be tendered

14 and filed, rather, 14 days from today, so that's the 12th -- no, the 7th,

15 is that right -- sorry, the 5th of May.

16 I think it's been clear to parties all along that the further we

17 go in the case the more important dead-lines are, and we consider that

18 that one reflects equal treatment and has regard, of course, as you

19 should to the fact that you have the advantage of bringing up the rear.

20 Now, I think that completes the issues -- Mr. Hannis.

21 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I have one matter that I'd like to

22 raise now because I think it relates to what you're doing. It relates to

23 the interview of General Lukic, Exhibit P948. You'll recall some of the

24 Defence counsel raised a concern that the contemporaneous translation

25 that was done during that interview had some problems. They highlighted

Page 25758

1 portions of the interview that they wanted CLSS to have a look at. And

2 my case manager had some e-mail conversation with CLSS I think Thursday

3 last week, and I would like to relay that to you because I think CLSS

4 needs some guidance and I would like to advise you of what they're

5 asking. So either the Court may address them directly or I'll pass the

6 word on.

7 This will take a minute to read. Our case manager pointed out

8 that there were two -- there were -- this was a difficult issue because

9 of the contemporaneous translation. Each question was translated from

10 English into B/C/S and then the answer into B/C/S and on to English.

11 First, there's the question of whether the OTP transcription of what is

12 actually said on the tape is correct, and we feel pretty confident that

13 that transcription is fairly accurate although people talk over each

14 other and sometimes that's difficult.

15 Secondly, the question of whether the on-site interpretation of

16 the English into B/C/S and then from the B/C/S back to English was

17 accurate. So we needed from CLSS an indication of whether or not the

18 transcript in CLSS's opinion is accurate as to what was said on the tape,

19 and if it wasn't what the correct transcription should be. And secondly,

20 whether the on-site interpretation was accurate; and if not, what it

21 should have been.

22 CLSS responded to us saying: The three parts of this kind of

23 work have to be kept separate to avoid confusion, ensure a decent

24 product, and enable us to deal with any disputes that might still arise.

25 Number one, on-site interpretation is necessarily an approximate process.

Page 25759

1 What is done is done and cannot be corrected. We would never comment on

2 the quality, especially if the interpreter was working all day in

3 difficult conditions, as is common in suspect interviews.

4 Number two, the transcripts themselves should be done by the OTP

5 language assistants and it is best if they check them for accuracy if you

6 think there are any problems. We're certainly willing to do that and I

7 think we have done that already and we're satisfied.

8 Number three, what we can do, CLSS, what we can do is provide a

9 written English translation of what the witness actually said and if

10 necessary, the way the questions were interpreted to the witness. Since

11 we have time, dictionaries, and everything else that is needed, this

12 translation will presumably be a far more accurate rendition than the

13 interpreter managed.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Have the passages causing concern been identified?

15 MR. HANNIS: They have, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: And how extensive are they?

17 MR. HANNIS: Yeah, 50 or 60 passages, sometimes, you know, one

18 answer, one paragraph and some may have gone on for a page or a page and

19 a half.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Zecevic, you might be the person to address on

21 this. My initial --

22 MR. ZECEVIC: I'll try my best, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: -- well, no, my initial reaction is that stage

24 three is the one that the efforts should be concentrated on, and

25 following the completion of that, if you were to have a concern about

Page 25760

1 stage one in any particular area -- on the face of it that shouldn't

2 arise, but in the event that it did arise, you could then draw that to

3 our attention. But I think the answer to Mr. Hannis's query is to invite

4 CLSS to do stage three and then see what that produces.

5 MR. ZECEVIC: I understand, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well.

7 Would you do that, Mr. Hannis. If anyone has any other ideas

8 subsequently, they should be conveyed through the Trial Chamber.

9 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour. So based on what's said on the

10 tape, we'll ask CLSS to do a written English translation of what

11 General Lukic said in answering questions.


13 MR. HANNIS: And then what was said to him in Serbian that led to

14 that answer.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, yes.

16 MR. HANNIS: All right.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: And it's only if something else arises that could

18 affect the earlier stages, which is unlikely it appears to me --

19 MR. HANNIS: Right.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: -- that we would ask for anything else. And we

21 would need to think what it was appropriate to ask in view of what's been

22 said.

23 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour. I'll pass that on.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

25 Mr. Visnjic, I think it's over to you now.

Page 25761

1 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. We have

2 another witness, and that is Dusan Mladenovski. As the witness is

3 entering the courtroom, Your Honour, when we sent notification regarding

4 his testimony we envisaged a certain amount of time that was needed, and

5 I would kindly ask to double the time allotted to us. In real terms,

6 that would be 20 minutes altogether.

7 [The witness entered court]

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, Mr. Visnjic, we're happy to do that.

9 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Good afternoon, Mr. Mladenovski. Would you please

11 make the solemn declaration to speak the truth by reading aloud the

12 document which will now be shown to you.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

14 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Please be seated.

16 You will now be examined by Mr. Visnjic on behalf of Mr. Ojdanic.

17 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.


19 [Witness answered through interpreter]

20 Examination by Mr. Visnjic:

21 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Mladenovski.

22 A. Good afternoon.

23 Q. Mr. Mladenovski, is it correct that on the 14th of January, 2008,

24 you gave a statement to the Defence team of General Ojdanic -- or to be

25 more specific, an investigator, Ratko Djukanovic, and is it true that you

Page 25762

1 signed that statement in your own hand?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. While being proofed for this testimony did you have a look at

4 this statement? If you were to testify today before the Court, would you

5 repeat everything that was said in that statement?

6 A. I read the statement before I signed it, and what I stated then

7 and what I signed is the same that I would say and sign today.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it is in e-court as

10 3D1135.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

12 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask for 3D1108 to be

13 shown to the witness.

14 Q. Mr. Mladenovski, you have a folder in front of you so you can

15 find that document yourself too.

16 A. I found it.

17 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask that the witness

18 be shown the last page of this exhibit.

19 Q. Mr. Mladenovski, can you tell me in relation to the handwritten

20 text that is in the lower right-hand corner of this document --

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Can you recognise that text?

23 A. I recognise the text. I wrote it in my own hand, and I signed it

24 in my own hand.

25 Q. Thank you.

Page 25763

1 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

2 Defence Exhibit 3D1130.

3 Your Honours, for your information this is a document that the

4 Defence of General Ojdanic got from the Government of the Republic of

5 Serbia and that constitutes a complete archive list, number 21606. This

6 document was obtained from the Government of Serbia on the basis of a

7 conclusion that is in e-court as well as 3D1134.

8 Could the witness please be shown the first page of 3D1130.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Just one moment.

10 Mr. Ackerman.

11 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I have a concern about the use of

12 this document that I expressed in writing earlier, and I'll express it

13 again for the record. Someone has blocked out significant portions of

14 the document, as you'll see there on the left-hand side of the page, the

15 B/C/S document. It looks like a piece of paper was put over it or

16 something to block out large portions of it. If you look at every page,

17 virtually all the document has been blocked out. I have no idea who did

18 it or why it was done, but it makes it very difficult for us to deal with

19 this document now and make the proper comparisons that might be required

20 for our work. But it was obviously intentionally done by someone, I

21 don't know by who.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Visnjic.

23 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can give an

24 explanation, the one that was given to me. Namely, I was asked to

25 identify parts of the document that were of direct relevance to me for

Page 25764

1 this trial, and I was told that the government would impose certain

2 restrictions with regard to this document. The only other thing I can

3 say is that the document is as accessible to me as to the generals'

4 defence -- or rather, to all the participants in these proceedings. It

5 is in the military archives and they can check everything and they can

6 look into the content of the redacted parts; however, that is the

7 restriction that was imposed by the government and of course that does

8 not restrict insight into the document.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I'm not understanding you entirely. Are you

10 saying you've seen the whole document?

11 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Exactly, Your Honour. When I

12 looked at the documentation, I saw the document in its entirety. When I

13 asked for a copy I was told that there would be certain restrictions

14 imposed in terms of the parts that are not relevant to these proceedings.

15 These restrictions were imposed by the Government of the Republic of

16 Serbia.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: But they are prepared to allow the parties to the

18 case to see the part. Now, we can achieve that objective by simply

19 admitting the document under seal with the whole document exposed, and

20 that retains its confidentiality.

21 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as a matter of fact we

22 can go even further than that. I may propose the following, that you may

23 instruct the government, as the Trial Chamber, to have the document

24 brought here and then returned to the archives. I can just note that in

25 terms of the procedure that I've described just now, it took me about two

Page 25765

1 and a half months from the moment when I saw the document until I got a

2 colour photocopy.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, in due course the document may have to be

4 viewed with limitations, and that can obviously affect its probative

5 value in the case. We will proceed with what we have for the moment and

6 we'll consider whether we can take steps to secure the unredacted

7 version.

8 Please continue, Mr. Visnjic.

9 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. Mr. Mladenovski, the first page of 3D1130 is in front of you now.

11 You have the entire exhibit before you. Can you recognise that document?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Is that the document that you described in your statement in

14 paragraphs 7 through 14?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Thank you. On page 1 of this document there are two dates, on

17 the left-hand side there is the 10th of August, 1999, and there is a

18 stamp of the Supreme Command Staff, the office of the chief; and on the

19 left-hand side, or rather, on the right-hand side there is the 24th of

20 September, 1999, yet another date. Can you explain to the Trial Chamber

21 in your view how did this happen, how come there are two dates on this

22 document?

23 A. Well, this would be it. After the order was written by the

24 General Staff to the effect that all documents that were created during

25 the war, or rather, during the NATO bombing had to be prepared and handed

Page 25766

1 over to the military archives for further procedure, or rather, for

2 safekeeping and classification -- probably specifically this unit, when

3 they were dealing with their documents, they needed to, first of all, put

4 them in the right order, then to fill in the archive lists, to pack them

5 in bundles; after that to load them on trucks. Usually the material

6 would arrive on trucks for the most part.

7 Then they had to get to the location where we were put up

8 temporarily, then all the material had to be unloaded, packed there, and

9 then to move in the right order; that is to say, to look at all the

10 documents in detail and to have them admitted. So I think that that's

11 the only thing because there was an enormous quantity of these documents.

12 We who were working on this could not deal with it over a shorter period

13 of time than that -- well, that's my opinion, that's why there's this

14 difference.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: All we wanted to know was why there were two

17 stamps, and I don't think you've answered that.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The difference from the 10th of

19 August until the 24th of September -- I mean that period between these

20 two dates, is due to what I said.

21 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours --

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Is one stamp when they leave the Supreme Command

23 Staff and the other when they arrive at the archive or is it something

24 else? I don't understand. Sorry. If you think it's important,

25 Mr. Visnjic, then we need to understand it.

Page 25767

1 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. You've heard the question.

3 A. The stamp of the Supreme Command, the stamp or seal, means that

4 it was logged in the log-book under number 400-6, that's on the left-hand

5 side of the document, the upper left-hand corner. On the right-hand side

6 there is the inventory number that is set in the military archives, and

7 underneath there is a date. The stamp towards the top of the document,

8 the stamp, is the one that is placed there when a photocopy is being

9 issued.

10 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry to interrupt, Your Honour.


12 MR. HANNIS: I wonder if we could go into private session for a

13 second to discuss something concerning this document.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well. We shall go into private session.

15 MR. HANNIS: Your Honours, when Mr. Ackerman -- sorry.

16 [Private session]

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 25768











11 Page 25768 redacted. Private session.















Page 25769

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 [Open session]

6 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

8 Mr. Visnjic.

9 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 Q. Mr. Mladenovski, can you tell me who entered the numbers in this

11 heading in the upper right-hand corner of this document? We'll go in

12 order. Who entered the inventory number?

13 A. Inventory numbers of archive lists were entered by a qualified

14 person, an archivist, from the military archives and that person was in

15 charge of giving inventory numbers.

16 Q. Is that the same person you describe in paragraph 4 of your

17 statement?

18 A. Yes, it was then a civilian employed in the Army of Yugoslavia,

19 her name was Sonja Tica-Zivaljevic.

20 Q. Thank you. Who entered the date?

21 A. It was I who entered the date.

22 Q. Thank you. Who entered the total number of documents and the

23 total number of pages?

24 A. I did that too.

25 Q. Tell us, how did you arrive at the total number of documents and

Page 25770

1 the total number of pages and what does this in fact represent?

2 A. I arrived at the total number of documents by adding up all the

3 pages of the archive list, 21606, from pages 1 to 8 from rubric 5 of the

4 archive list where it says documents, and in the same way by adding up

5 the pages in column 6 or rubric 6 from pages 1 to 8. The total number

6 was added up with corrections, let me mention, so that after corrections

7 were entered it was then that the total number of documents and the total

8 number of pages were added up. After this there followed the signature

9 on page 8 of the archive list.

10 Q. Can you tell us the following: When making a statement you

11 double-checked these added numbers. Can you tell us what conclusions you

12 reached conducting this check?

13 A. Before I made my statement to the investigator, when adding up

14 the total number of documents and pages from rubrics 5 and 6 of the

15 archive list, 21606, I arrived at the conclusion that there was

16 discrepancy of one document and two pages. This means that by the way I

17 added up the documents it would have to be 278 documents, and as for

18 pages it would have to be 237 [as interpreted] pages.

19 Q. So if I understand you correctly, assuming that you added up

20 correctly when you entered these numbers there was one document less,

21 that is two leafs less in the bundle making up this archive list --

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Stop for a moment, there's a mistake in this

23 transcript so let's have this answer again.

24 Tell us again, please, Mr. Mladenovski, the figures that you got

25 when you did this double-check when you were dealing with your statement.

Page 25771

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, when inspecting the

2 entire archive list, I added up the numbers as I had on receipt --

3 JUDGE BONOMY: I know what you did. Just tell us the figures you

4 got the second time when you did the check because they've been wrongly

5 added to our transcript.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Before making my statement, when

7 checking the total number of documents and the total number of pages, the

8 numbers I calculated were 278 documents in total, and not as it says 277

9 in the archive list; and the total number of sheets or leafs was 737 and

10 not 735, as it says in the archive list.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

12 Mr. Visnjic -- sorry, before you ask, the left-hand stamp, the

13 red one, who entered these details, the number and the date?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that is the log-book

15 number from the staff of the Supreme Command of the cabinet of the chief.

16 That's the log-book where this document is registered.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: So who would be responsible for putting the number

18 and the date, do you know? Somebody connected with the Supreme Command

19 Staff, is that the position, or is it someone else?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know who the person was,

21 but usually it was the person in charge of keeping the log-book there, in

22 that office, but who it was I don't know.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

24 Mr. Visnjic.

25 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]

Page 25772

1 Q. I'll ask you now to take a look at page 5 -- well, we can first

2 take a look at page 2 of this document. [In English] I'm sorry, page 2.

3 [Interpretation] Thank you.

4 Can you tell us who entered the changes in columns 5 and 6 of

5 this document?

6 A. The changes were entered by me in columns 5, 6, and 4.

7 Q. Thank you. And who inscribed the text in column number 7?

8 A. Copy number 4, I did that, or comment number 4.

9 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Could we show page 5 to the

10 witness.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: There seems to be a

12 mistranslation, it should be copy number 4, not comment number 4.

13 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. What I'm interested is the following, can you tell me what the

15 text entered into column number 7 represents, what does it mean?

16 A. The text entered into column 7, the fax would not be copied means

17 that before starting to inspect the documents the superiors in charge

18 instructed us how we should work, how we should proceed. And inter alia

19 they explained that any faxes comprising part of the documents should be

20 photocopied before they are filed away because probably there is some

21 material which fades in these fax messages so that after a few years you

22 can't read them anymore. And I assume that was the reason why our

23 superiors ordered that every fax should be photocopied so that the text

24 could be kept.

25 Q. Thank you.

Page 25773

1 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown page 6.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Before that happens there's an interpretation

3 issue. An interpreter made a correction from column 4 to copy 4. Now, I

4 don't understand that. It made sense when it was column 4, but what does

5 the witness say, Mr. Visnjic? You asked him about columns 5 and 6 and he

6 said -- I thought that he had altered 4, 5, 6, but the interpreter says

7 that's not --

8 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this refers to the

9 text entered on page 2 of the document. If we can go back to page 2 of

10 the document.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: So he's not -- but before you do, he's not --

12 MR. VISNJIC: It's not related --

13 JUDGE BONOMY: -- referring to the handwriting alteration in

14 column 4?

15 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] No, it refers to the text entered

16 on page 2 in column number 7, where you have in handwriting -- it says

17 "copy number 4," you have it before you now. Now when we have page 2 in

18 English, please --

19 JUDGE BONOMY: If you look at the English, please, at page --

20 MR. VISNJIC: Your Honour, I think that the English is not

21 referring to the same --

22 JUDGE BONOMY: If you look at page 116, line 17 --

23 MR. VISNJIC: I need page 2 in English.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: No, you just need to look at page 116 of the

25 transcript at line 17, which is the line -- I think I have it now. It's

Page 25774

1 my mistake relating the columns and the comment, yes, I follow it now.

2 Thank you, Mr. Visnjic. Please continue.

3 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown page 7.

4 Q. Mr. Mladenovski, in paragraph 8 of your statement you identified

5 a part of a text, or rather, a column that you say contains corrections

6 not made by you. Could you please take another look at page 7 and tell

7 us what numbers, or rather, what corrections you think were not entered

8 by you.

9 A. As I said in my statement, I recognised all the corrections in

10 the entire list except for the corrections on page 7, archive unit 82,

11 columns 4, 5, and 6. I could not recognise these corrections as mine.

12 Q. Thank you. In your statement in paragraph 9 you say, or rather,

13 you speak about the method of entering corrections. Using this as an

14 example, can you tell us why you think that the corrections in columns 5

15 and 6, or rather, why you feel that you did not enter these corrections.

16 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness have the B/C/S

17 version only and could we zoom in and could the witness be handed a

18 marker, a pen, electronic marker. Could we zoom in a bit more, please.

19 A bit more, please, we need to zoom in on line 82. More. Thank you.

20 Q. [Microphone not activated]

21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

22 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Mr. Mladenovski, please tell Their Honours something about the

24 manner in which corrections -- the corrections in line 82 were entered

25 and why you think it was not done by you?

Page 25775

1 A. I'll say once more that before beginning to inspect the

2 documents, or rather, the bundles and comparing them with the archive

3 lists our superiors explained to us inter alia that wherever we found a

4 correction or where a number had to be corrected that we should strike

5 through the number with a single line and the number should remain

6 visible, and above the number we have crossed out we should write the

7 other number, for example, in columns 5 and 6. The exception was if the

8 column was too small or the number was at the top of the box, so we

9 couldn't write anything above the number, then we could write it

10 underneath. So that was the method to be used, and the number that was

11 crossed out had to remain visible. This referred to columns 5 and 6. In

12 the case of column 4 we were told that all numbers had to be entered and

13 it didn't matter whether it was up or down or left or right, as long as

14 all the numbers that had not already been entered were entered in the

15 column.

16 Q. If you had entered the corrections in columns 5 and 6, how would

17 you have done it? Do you have the marker? Can you show Their Honours

18 how you would have done it on the monitor.

19 A. Excuse me --

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Clear it off and put another one on the screen

21 please, if you really need to do this, but that one won't work.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Should I enter the numbers that --

23 I understand.

24 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Thank you.

Page 25776

1 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we have an IC

2 number for this document, please.


4 THE REGISTRAR: That will be IC195, Your Honours.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

6 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] No further questions for this

7 witness. Thank you. I only wish to ask that 3D1134, which is the

8 conclusions of the government on permission to use the documents be

9 admitted into evidence.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Is there any reason why that should not be the

11 case? Very well. We will admit it.

12 Mr. Ackerman, do you have cross-examination? Lengthy?

13 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I think probably about the same

14 amount of time Mr. Visnjic took on direct.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Mladenovski, we have to complete or conclude

16 our sitting for today at this time. We can't, regrettably, sit on to

17 complete your evidence. So you'll have to come back tomorrow, and that

18 will be tomorrow afternoon because this court, I think, is occupied by

19 another case tomorrow morning. So we will be sitting at 2.15. Now, it's

20 very important that you have absolutely no communication with anybody at

21 all about any aspect of the evidence in this case between now and coming

22 back to continue your evidence. Please bear that in mind. You may now

23 leave the courtroom with the usher and we will see you here again

24 tomorrow at 2.15.

25 [The witness stands down]

Page 25777

1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.33 p.m.,

2 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 22nd day of

3 April, 2008, at 2.15 p.m.