1 Wednesday, 21 May 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Good morning, everyone. We will continue with the
6 cross-examination of Mr. Djakovic.
7 [The witness entered court]
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Good morning, Mr. Djakovic.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: We're grateful to you for taking the time
11 yesterday to write out those parts of the notes which were found to be
12 illegible. I appreciate that it took a considerable amount of your time.
13 I'm advised that some of the passages remain illegible, which is no
14 surprise. It happens to most of us. And you've marked these on the
15 sheet. There are 11 pages, I understand, of your handwritten material.
16 It's important that that is preserved. I understand one other difficulty
17 you had, apart from deciphering some parts, was being sure about the
18 place names in some instances and we would be grateful for just a little
19 more assistance from you. When you finish your evidence today, we've
20 arranged that the court deputy will give you an atlas of Kosovo to see if
21 that assists you to identify any of the place names that you've been
22 unable to identify so far. I'm not expecting you to spend a lot of time
23 on that. Just see what you can do to help further, and we will be
24 grateful for that.
25 The cross-examination by Mr. Lukic will now continue.
1 Mr. Lukic.
2 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 WITNESS: MILAN DJAKOVIC [Resumed]
4 [Witness answered through interpreter]
5 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic: [Continued]
6 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Djakovic.
7 A. Good morning.
8 Q. I see that you worked yesterday after the trial too, so today
9 we'll keep things very short. I would just like to show you a document,
10 the document is 6D1665. There is no translation for this document, so
11 I'm just going to ask you to look at page 2. So could you please read
12 something from there and give me your comments. This is a letter from
13 the Office of the National Council for Cooperation with the
14 International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia. It was sent
15 on the 30th of January, 2008, to our colleague Boris, who's a member of
16 this team.
17 So could you please slowly read out paragraph 7 of this letter.
18 We are going to ask for it to be zoomed in. Do you see it now?
19 A. I do.
20 Paragraph 7: "The log-book of the forward command post of the
21 command of the 3rd Army in which documents are registered starting with
22 number 872 for the period from the 20th of March, 1999, up until the 10th
23 of June, 1999, in spite of all the efforts made by the legal successor of
24 the mentioned command has not been found or, rather, it has been
25 established that the requested log-book had not been handed over and
1 filed in the archives and also that there is no accurate information
2 about where the log-book is and whether it was ever destroyed or lost."
3 Q. Thank you. I'd just like to ask you who this legal successor
4 referred to here is, do you know?
5 A. Terminologically, legal successor in a way, well, it can be said
6 it's the army command or the General Staff to which the documents were
7 supposed to be handed over.
8 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to where this log-book could be
9 found, do you know?
10 A. No. It would be logical for it to be in the archives of the
11 General Staff. There is no other place for it to be. The only thing I
12 can say is that I know that there had to be a log-book because in respect
13 of the documents that I did -- that I created at the forward command post
14 they were logged in the log-book, including my control inspections of
15 units on orders issued by the commander and other tasks that we carried
16 out. You can even find out what number it was supposed to be.
17 Q. Thank you, Mr. Djakovic. These were all the questions that we
18 had for you. Thank you.
19 A. You're welcome.
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis.
22 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I wanted to request permission to be
23 able to go into two areas --
24 JUDGE BONOMY: I'll come back to you in a moment.
25 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: There is one thing that we would like to ask just
2 finally from our point of view.
3 Questioned by the Court:
4 JUDGE BONOMY: You've referred a number of times, Mr. Djakovic,
5 to the MUP staff, and that was a MUP staff for Kosovo. What was your
6 understanding of its role?
7 A. Well, my understanding is -- well, I haven't really given this
8 much thought because I had direct contacts with certain persons. So I
9 didn't really give much thought to the role of the MUP, but I think that
10 the role of the MUP did have a certain function. My assessment is that
11 the minister of the interior sent part of the officers from the MUP down
12 there to reinforce the team that would practically be in charge of the
13 work of certain secretariats of the interior in an indirect way, if I can
14 put it that way, exercised its influence; and directly influence the
15 overall situation in Kosovo in relation to the tasks and obligations of
16 the police. I'm saying that because the minister of the interior, at
17 least according to what some people said, had direct links with the
18 secretariats and the staff of the MUP had the same kind of links with the
19 secretariats. Down there there were, if I can put it that way, two men
20 from the Ministry of the Interior who probably had the task to reinforce
21 that team. I'm referring to General Djordjevic and General Obrad,
22 Obrad Stevanovic I mean. Now, what their specific tasks were I can
23 only - well - infer what that might be. And I've already said in a way
24 that General Obrad Stevanovic was primarily involved with the PJPs, and
25 as for the engagement of these units I mostly dealt with him with regard
1 to that matter not with General Lukic.
2 As for General Djordjevic, I did not have much in common with him
3 except during the talks that were held and briefings; however, I as head
4 of operations and training did not have any other contacts with
5 General Djordjevic. I repeat again, most of my contacts were with
6 General Obrad Stevanovic and with General Lukic's assistants or at least
7 they introduced themselves to me as being General Lukic's assistants.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: What period of time are you referring to?
9 A. I am saying all of this about the period of 1998, that is to say
10 up until the end of January, until I was there as head of operations and
11 training. Beforehand I said that for 1999 I cannot give much reliable
12 information because I had contacts with them very seldom because I was
13 involved with completely different things.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: In your evidence initially you gave the impression
15 that you thought that General Lukic had a very important role there, and
16 yet you don't mention him in that context in this answer.
17 A. Certainly, I do mention him. He was on the MUP staff and he was
18 responsible for the work of the MUP staff. I did not say that because I
19 believe that probably there is some documentation in relation to that. I
20 never had any documents from the MUP except for the information that I
21 received from the Ministry of the Interior and the state security. That
22 is to say that I never dealt with any other documents. That's what I
23 said yesterday to General Lukic's lawyer, when answering his questions.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: In liaising with the MUP in relation to any
25 actions, did you personally have direct contact with the heads of any of
1 the seven SUPs?
2 A. The heads, no. As a matter of fact, I could only remember the
3 name of Boro Vlahovic when I went to the commission in April because I
4 and General Stojanovic from the MUP talked to him together. I know the
5 others more in respect of their names. Perhaps I did see some of them
6 individually, but I very seldom had direct contact with them. Mostly it
7 was brigade commanders who had contact with chiefs of the secretariats of
8 the interior.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic, does that raise any issues for you?
11 MR. LUKIC: No, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
13 We did say we would give you the opportunity if anything arose in
14 cross-examination by Defence counsel, Mr. Hannis.
15 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour. There was one thing from
16 Mr. Lukic and one thing from Mr. Fila.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.
18 Further Cross-examination by Mr. Hannis:
19 Q. Yesterday Mr. Lukic asked you whether you participated in
20 drafting the plan for combatting terrorism and you said yes. Can you
21 tell me two things. One, what was the name of the plan? What did you
22 call it? Was it just the plan for combatting terrorism or did it have
23 any particular name?
24 A. That plan did not have any secret name, I know that for sure.
25 It had no secret name, as plans do, like Grom or others that existed
1 earlier on.
2 So this plan did not have a name. Its name was simply the plan for
3 combating terrorism in Kosovo and Metohija. That was its name, so to
4 speak, in communication among us and what we were tasked to do within
5 the command.
6 As for its content, yesterday I pointed out, first of all, it was
7 defence of the border; and secondly, the deblockade of roads in two
8 stages. One stage is the deblockade of the roads behind the border belt,
9 and the second or third is the deblockade of road throughout the
10 territory of Kosovo and Metohija, primarily the three main roads,
11 Kosovska Mitrovica-Rudnik-Pec; the second one
12 Pristina-Iglarevo-Klina-Pec, and this road going through Kramovik to
13 Djakovica. And the third road is Stimlje-Dulje-Suva Reka-Prizren. The
14 fourth road was open, that is through Urosevac, Strpce, and Prizren. It
15 was not blocked and no actions were planned there against the terrorist
17 Q. And you said that you participated in writing the plan. Were you
18 the only author or if there were others involved, who else was involved
19 in writing the plan?
20 A. No, no. I've already said that I was the protagonist of the
21 drafting, but the entire command of the corps took part, all of them who
22 were at the command post then. That is to say that General Lazarevic on
23 the 21 of April on orders issued by the army commander went to the
24 forward command post with a group of officers in Djakovica, and he stayed
25 there practically until the end of October. I think that's when this
1 activity ended. As for the rest of the command, General Pavkovic, I as
2 the head of the operations and teaching department and also
3 General Lazarevic's deputy, most of the operative organs, the chiefs of
4 arms and services subordinated to General Lazarevic, then the assistant
5 for logistics, and the assistants to the assistant for logistics, then
6 the chief of security and his assistants, then the assistant for moral
7 guidance and the other organs, they were all in Pristina, at the command
8 post there, and they took part in the elaboration of this plan
9 proportionate to the need in terms of the information that they were
10 supposed to provide. If you're interested in hearing who provided what
11 elements, I can elaborate on that.
12 Q. No, that's sufficient for now. Let me then go to the other
13 topic. Yesterday Mr. Fila asked you a couple of questions about the four
14 civilians that attended the Joint Command meetings, and at page 26.846 he
15 said: "Would you agree with me then that any suggestion or anything that
16 the four said did not have any influence on what was done?"
17 You said: "No, their influence was not really that significant."
18 I would like to show you two documents related to that issue, the
19 first one is P1435. I can hand you a hard copy with the help of the
20 usher. It's dated the 22nd of September, 1998. It's from
21 General Pavkovic, a Pristina Corps commander, to the 3rd Army command,
22 personally to the commander General Samardzic. Have you seen this
23 document before?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. In paragraph 1 we see it says: "At the meeting in Belgrade on
1 31 August 1998 presided over by the president of the SFRY, a plan for
2 implementing stage five of the fight against terrorism in KiM was agreed
4 And you'll see that there was a discussion that part of that
5 agreement was forming some new battle groups to be used in KiM. If you
6 will go down to paragraph 4, in English we have to go to the second page.
7 For you, General, it's at the bottom of page 1, paragraph 4 says:
8 "During the briefing on the course of implementing stage five of the plan
9 which was given at the meeting of the ZK for Kosovo and Metohija," and I
10 take it that means the Joint Command? Isn't that what the ZK means
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. "At the meeting of the Joint Command for Kosovo and Metohija on
14 10 September 1998, the other command organs pointed out that the VJ had
15 not carried out two of its duties under the plan, namely, one, it had not
16 formed rapid intervention helicopter units as the president of the FRY
17 had ordered at the meeting on 31 August 1998; and two, two battle groups
18 had not been moved down to KiM."
19 My first question is: Who were the other command organs at the
20 Joint Command meeting that are being referred to there?
21 A. I can say that during those meetings and briefings, from what I
22 noticed, about 20 to 25 people passed through those meetings and
23 briefings. The fact that nobody stated at the first meeting that any
24 kind of command was formed is true. This is definite, I'm convinced of
25 that, otherwise I would have written it down, and it seems the most
1 important thing to be written down had this been said.
2 Secondly, seven or practically eight people attended the first
3 meeting. Later some 12 to 15 persons appeared at these meetings, they
4 were carrying out different posts and functions, including the commander
5 of the army, the chief or the assistant commander of the 3rd Army,
6 General Samardzic, for counter-intelligence affairs. And of course it
7 would be in their jurisdiction in case anything was illegal --
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Djakovic, let me stop you there. The VJ is
9 obviously one command organ and the MUP is another, and what Mr. Hannis
10 is asking is: What other command organs were involved?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There are no other organs here. I
12 don't know of any other organs. As to the role they were given, the
13 gentleman from the republican and the federal organs, this is something
14 that I can only speculate on or guess about and I said that yesterday.
15 These would be the four persons referred to here plus
16 Mr. Andreja Milosavljevic also appeared, he was there, then I think
17 Mr. Lakovic or something like that from the state security of Pristina
18 appeared, I think that was his surname. Then there were others, I think
19 Mijatovic was there from the MUP. These were the people. There are no
20 other persons. There is no other organs or persons other than the ones
21 who were there. I don't know of any other organs.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 MR. HANNIS:
24 Q. General, I'm looking at the minutes for the meeting on the 10th
25 of September, and those present are General Pavkovic, General Lukic,
1 Mr. Radovic, Mr. Minic, General Stevanovic, Mr. Andjelkovic, and
2 Mr. Sainovic. So if General Pavkovic is talking about the other command
3 organs pointing out something at that meeting, it had to be somebody
4 other than the VJ and the MUP, and that leaves Mr. Minic, Mr. Sainovic,
5 and Mr. Andjelkovic, because Mr. -- or Mr. Radovic, I suppose --
6 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I don't have any objections to what
7 Mr. Hannis is doing. I would just like the Chamber to allow the witness
8 to look at the records or the minutes. I apologise. Perhaps then it
9 would be good to continue with the questioning. That is all that I
10 wanted to say. Thank you.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Would that help, Mr. Hannis?
12 MR. HANNIS: I have no problem with that.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well.
14 MR. HANNIS:
15 Q. Do you find the entry for that date, General?
16 A. Yes, I have.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Sorry.
18 Mr. Ackerman.
19 MR. ACKERMAN: I do have an objection in the sense of the
20 question of Mr. Hannis was it had to be somebody other than the MUP or
21 the VJ, and I don't think the MUP is excluded as being the command that
22 raised the issue if you look at the language in the thing.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, but it's plural.
24 MR. ACKERMAN: MUP could very easily have raised that.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: I entirely accept that, Mr. Ackerman, but the
1 language uses the plural so there must be another organ. And whether it
2 means an organ of the Joint Command or whether it means an organ that has
3 command responsibilities is yet another issue to be resolved. But first
4 of all we need to identify what are the organs involved.
5 Please continue, Mr. Hannis.
6 MR. HANNIS:
7 Q. That's my question, General, the way I read that. When
8 General Pavkovic from the VJ says at that September 10th meeting: "Other
9 command organs" pointed out that the VJ hadn't done something, I assume
10 MUP is one of the other command organ, but it's in the plural. Who else
11 besides the MUP is he referring to there, now that you've had a chance to
12 look at who else was attending on that day?
13 A. Yes. The remarks probably refer to, at least according to this
14 report, to other civilians. They can refer to other civilians certain
15 remarks, because General Pavkovic here refers to the agreement at
16 President Milosevic's, at a meeting which was attended by the civilians
17 that are referred to here who attended the meeting of the Joint Command.
18 It was attended also by the army commander, by the Chief of the
19 General Staff, and the chief of the security administration. It was also
20 attended by President Milosevic, Stanisic probably, and any of the other
21 organs who were present there, maybe the MUP and the army organs. So I
22 assume this refers to their knowledge in relation to Belgrade what was
23 agreed at a specific state level, where state, police, and army and other
24 state organs took part, the Executive Council, the federal
25 Executive Council, representatives of the government, so these would be
1 the top state organs. Because these details up here are not known to me,
2 how this functioned at the level of Belgrade, but I know for sure that
3 the corps commander constantly went with the army commander in a
4 helicopter to Belgrade. This is what I do know, and they went to the
5 General Staff together. After that, they went to President Milosevic for
6 meetings, but I don't know -- all I know about these meetings and the
7 results is that I received an order to begin preparations based on a
8 decision by the Supreme Council, preparations to draft a plan to deblock
9 communications. This is all I knew --
10 Q. [Previous translation continues]... talking about comments that
11 were made at the Joint Command meeting on the 10th of September, that's
12 the meeting where he says: "The other command organs pointed out that VJ
13 had not carried out two of its duties under the plan ..." he's not saying
14 that happened at the meeting on the 31st of August, 1998, right?
15 A. It doesn't say that, but he says that the agreement is such --
16 the agreement in Belgrade was attended by General Samardzic too. And he
17 refers to -- actually, he addresses General Samardzic, that he as the
18 authorised organ, the superior organ to the corps commander, should
19 intervene in that sense and approve the use and the formation of such a
20 unit for rapid intervention. So he addresses the army commander in a
21 regular procedure for it to, with his authority and force of order,
22 implements this decision that was approved at the top levels of the
23 state, that he then approves what is going on here with the organs of the
24 Joint Command.
25 Q. [Previous translation continues]...
1 JUDGE BONOMY: You need to allow the interpretation to be
3 Mr. Fila, you wanted to say something.
4 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I just wanted to say if you show him
5 the records from that meeting, the minutes from that meeting, I would
6 like to see if there is a single word of that that is being claimed that
7 Pavkovic said. I would like to find in the notes anything about any
8 civilian stating what Mr. Hannis is putting to you.
9 Can you please read that.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I didn't have time to read
11 this. I'm just responding to the question.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Just -- that's not the way to deal with this,
13 Mr. Fila. If you feel that your position is somehow or other prejudiced
14 by this further cross-examination, you should ask at the end of it for an
15 opportunity to clarify certain matters by asking any additional questions
16 you wish. If you feel it can't be done simply by making appropriate
17 submissions in due course, which I suspect it can be.
18 Mr. Hannis.
19 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
20 Q. General, if you would go down to the bottom of the page 2 in the
21 B/C/S of that exhibit, P1435, you'll see there's a -- "we propose," a
22 couple of things that General Pavkovic proposes. I want you to read the
23 sentence right above that. Can you read that out so I can ensure the
24 translation we have is correct.
25 A. "We are providing the -- moreover, we're giving the members of
1 the Joint Command for Kosovo and Metohija the opportunity to report to
2 the president of the SRJ that the Army of Yugoslavia did not carry out
3 its duties as provided under the plan."
4 Q. Thank you. That's what we have on the English. Then one other
5 document related to this topic, P1439. I have a hard copy of this one
6 too, General. With the usher's help, I'll trade you. This is dated the
7 5th of October, 1998, again from General Pavkovic to the 3rd Army command
8 addressed to the commander. Under item number 2, the second paragraph,
9 my English translation says: "On my return from the reporting session
10 with the ZK, Joint Command for Kosovo and Metohija, on 19 and 20
11 September 1998, I informed you personally by telephone of the decision to
12 form rapid intervention forces. As part of the conclusions from the
13 Joint Command for Kosovo and Metohija meeting, I sent you the decision to
14 form rapid intervention units, which you forbade in your order of
15 3 October."
16 Now, would you go to the entry for the 20th of September, 1998,
17 in the Joint Command notes you took.
18 MR. HANNIS: It's page 124 of the English, Your Honours, and in
19 e-court, it's page 110 in the B/C/S.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, can you please give me the
21 date on that relevant page. Is it October?
22 MR. HANNIS:
23 Q. Yeah, I'm looking for the date of the 20th of September, the
24 meeting of 20 September.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Page 121 seems to be the 19th, 123 for the 20th --
1 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour. 124 in the English.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Oh, 124.
3 MR. HANNIS: Actually, the entry starts on 123, but the portion I
4 want to ask about is on 124 in the English.
5 Q. Do you find that one, General, on your B/C/S?
6 A. Yes, from the 20th of September, yes, I found it.
7 Q. And I think it's the next page for you, it's Mr. Sainovic
8 speaking. And the first thing he's recorded as saying is: "To prepare
9 units for faster interventions ..."
10 That's what it says, correct?
11 A. Yes, yes.
12 Q. I don't know, can you read the last sentence there because it's
13 marked as illegible here and I can't remember if that's one of the ones
14 you went through yesterday or not.
15 A. I probably then corrected something here most likely, but then I
16 started for Thursday, then it's crossed out, then it says "Friday the
17 commanders of the helicopter units are to come -- unit are to come at
18 10.00, operative from the army."
19 Q. Okay. Thank you.
20 MR. HANNIS: I don't have any further questions from what arose
21 yesterday, Your Honour, but there was one thing. During my
22 cross-examination of the General he had indicated that he never -- no one
23 ever used the term Joint Command in those meetings and he never wrote
24 that in the minutes. I didn't find the entries I was looking for while I
25 was talking to him, but I wanted to direct the Court to page 115 and page
1 142 of the English. There are two entries, one where General Pavkovic
2 says: "A body is to be formed from all the structures to take care of
3 the realization in forming the Joint Command for Kosovo and Metohija
4 beforehand," and at page 142 Mr. Sainovic is saying: "The Djakovica
5 model is to be applied in the village of," it's an illegible word, "and
6 in Prizren as well (meeting with the Joint Command for Kosovo and
8 And with that --
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Are you wanting to put these to the witness to
10 establish --
11 MR. HANNIS: Well, Your Honour, it didn't arise from
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I think you should do it.
14 MR. HANNIS: Okay.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Because --
16 MR. HANNIS: I brought it to your attention to see if you wanted
17 to do it or if you wanted me to do it.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Please continue with that.
19 MR. HANNIS:
20 Q. General, yesterday I think you took the position that during
21 these meetings no one used the term "Joint Command." I would ask you to
22 look, if you can find the entry for the 8th of October, 1998.
23 MR. HANNIS: That entry actually starts on page 141 of the
24 English but in English I'm going to 142.
25 Q. Do you find that, General? At the very bottom of that page you
1 should see Mr. Sainovic speaking, and then on the next page in your B/C/S
2 could you read that out.
3 A. Yes.
4 "The Djakovica model should be applied to Pec and Prizren," and I
5 put in parenthesis "(notes from a meeting of the Joint Command for Kosovo
6 and Metohija on the 8th of October)."
7 This is not something that Mr. Sainovic said. I put in
8 parenthesis that this was a meeting of the Joint Command for Kosovo and
9 Metohija. He didn't refer to that, I did. In my conversation with
10 General Pavkovic, General Samardzic do refer to the Joint Command because
11 General Samardzic also asked me about meetings of the Joint Command, and
12 General Pavkovic and he did refer General Pavkovic to meetings of the
13 Joint Command.
14 Q. [Previous translation continues]... of September 1998. That
15 starts on page 113 of the English, Your Honour, the portion I wanted to
16 ask about is on page 115.
17 A. 15th of September, yes, I see it.
18 Q. [Previous translation continues]... if you will follow to the
19 third page, the last page for that meeting, it should be just an entry
20 for General Pavkovic.
21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We do not see the original
22 or the translation.
23 MR. HANNIS:
24 Q. [Previous translation continues]... under his name on that page.
25 A. "Plan to secure communications by secretariats."
1 The next one: "When the plan for fortifying position is
2 reviewed, the next, a body is to be formed of all the structures that
3 will deal with the implementation and inform the Joint Command for Kosovo
4 and Metohija beforehand."
5 Q. Thank you.
6 MR. HANNIS: I don't have any other questions, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Zecevic.
8 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, I just have one intervention in the
9 transcript. I didn't want to interrupt my colleague or yourself. It is
10 page 6 of the transcript. I believe the witness said the secret name,
11 not the secretariat name, as it stands in the transcript. And it says:
12 "Like Grom or others that existed later on," and in transcript it's
13 earlier on. So that's all I have.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
15 Mr. Fila.
16 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would need to put some
17 questions arising from the questions put by Mr. Hannis. First, in
18 relation to the minutes of the 9th of September he's being shown a letter
19 in which General Djakovic refers to those minutes. So my question is:
20 Is any of the civilians at that meeting on the 9th of September, 1998,
21 the one who mentions anything that General Pavkovic says, according to
22 that letter, and perhaps then we can see who Pavkovic is thinking of with
23 these - how shall we put it, what can I say? - and then you can look at
24 the 9th.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Is it the 10th or the 9th?
1 MR. HANNIS: The 10th.
2 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Excuse me, yes, the 10th of September.
3 I apologise.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, well, you may put your question.
5 Further Cross-examination by Mr. Fila:
6 Q. [Interpretation] General, sir, the Prosecutor showed you
7 Pavkovic's letter that you are familiar with, where he talks about
8 organs, some organs. You said one is MUP, it can be something else, I
9 don't know, it can be state security, let's say, but it doesn't matter.
10 There was an attempt to insinuate that the organs are actually those four
11 civilians and that you answered me incorrectly yesterday that the
12 civilians didn't have any influence. In your notes, is it said anywhere
13 that those civilians said anything about the matters that Pavkovic is
14 referring to in the letter?
15 A. I didn't notice, but I know that as part of the -- within the
16 command we discussed the rapid intervention forces because the
17 circumstances required us to deal with this problem, and probably
18 General Pavkovic, based on the agreement in Belgrade up there, reminded
19 the army commander about the duties that were agreed on.
20 Q. Thank you. Does that mean, am I on the right road, that Pavkovic
21 in that sense is thinking of Belgrade and not the four civilians who are
22 sitting with you there?
23 A. Based on the communication I had with General Samardzic, I know
24 that General Samardzic was informed about this proposal.
25 Q. All right. My second question. If we were to take the
1 suggestion that there were these civilians that, for example, these
2 forces were formed, were these forces ever formed and did
3 General Samardzic forbid the formation of these forces?
4 A. General Samardzic did not approve the forming of these forces and
5 this is something the Chief of the General Staff is aware of,
6 General Perisic.
7 Q. Were they ever formed?
8 A. No.
9 Q. All right. If we take the assumption stated by someone here,
10 that General Sainovic [as interpreted] is ordering all the generals of
11 the Army of Yugoslavia, does that mean that he could have issued an order
12 to Samardzic to form these forces or not?
13 A. If this was so, he could have done so, but he didn't even call
14 him. I know he did not call him because the commander of the army simply
15 did not permit the use of helicopter units in Kosovo.
16 Q. All right. And now to go back to what we discussed, the
17 Prosecutor's questions of yesterday. You said yesterday that if anyone
18 were to, anyone at these meetings - and I'm talking about the civilians,
19 only the civilians - had some kind of proposal or suggestion or anything,
20 and this was primarily the MUP, all of this had to go back to
21 General Samardzic, again for approval, so they actually had no influence
22 on implementation at all?
23 A. No direct influence at all, not according to the decisions.
24 Nobody even tried that. I know that decisions on the use of forces, I
25 never heard anyone tell them, Djakovic do this, do that, plan this,
1 never. They -- only the corps commander and the army commander, at least
2 to me.
3 Q. So if the commander, like you said yesterday, if the army
4 commander ultimately would approve an action, this did not go back to the
5 meeting to say that it was approved, but the next day there would be a
6 briefing about how this was referred -- how this was being implemented?
7 A. Yes, they would report back on the implementation.
8 Q. Therefore, between yesterday and today and on the basis of the
9 question you heard, has your opinion and your position in any way changed
10 with regard to these four civilians not having interfered into the
11 matters of the army?
12 A. They did not interfere with these matters.
13 Q. That was all. Thank you.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Fila, irony often doesn't travel well in
15 translation. If you look at line -- page 21, line 7, is that an ironic
16 reference to General Sainovic?
17 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I didn't say General Sainovic. That
18 was an error. I said Nikola Sainovic.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't hear General Sainovic
20 being interpreted back to me.
21 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I stated Nikola Sainovic. I don't
22 know how it became General.
23 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters apologise. Perhaps we
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bakrac.
1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would not agree with
2 my colleague Zecevic, who corrected the transcript, because it's page 19,
3 lines 8 and 9, when, or rather, my colleague Zecevic is right in saying
4 that it should have stated a secret name for plans, but the witness also
5 said Grom and the ones that were made before, not later. Can the tape
6 please be double-checked. We disagree amongst ourselves, not all of us
7 have heard the same, but I believe I heard the witness say that and
8 that's why I would kindly request that the tape be double-checked.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Remind me of the page and line number.
10 Mr. Bakrac, it was page 6, was it?
11 MR. BAKRAC: [Microphone not activated]
12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Colleague Zecevic
14 intervened --
15 JUDGE BONOMY: We shall ask CLSS to revise the translation of
16 page 6, lines 23 to 25, the word -- just the first three words of line
18 It's -- would probably be ideal if everyone had an opportunity to
19 see what General Djakovic wrote out last night before he leaves here. So
20 Mr. Haider can photocopy what was written out and just in case there's
21 anything there that ought to be put to him. It won't take you long to
22 read it. The exercise we did the other day in identifying outstanding
23 matters has not -- has met with mixed results and needs to be revisited,
24 and I'm going to do that just now, and then we'll adjourn to enable
25 certain matters to be clarified and to allow counsel to read the parts of
1 the notes written out by General Djakovic.
2 For the moment, that completes your evidence, Mr. Djakovic, but
3 we would like you not to leave just at this stage until everyone has
4 checked what you wrote out last night to see if they want to ask briefly
5 any further questions. While we are dealing with that, looking at what
6 you wrote and reviewing certain other matters, you'll be given access to
7 the Kosovo atlas so that you can see if you can clarify any of the place
8 names. So Mr. Haider will arrange for that to be done. If it turns out
9 that no further questions are necessary, then that will bring to an end
10 the requirement that you're here. And in case you're not back in court,
11 I thank you now for coming here to assist the Tribunal with its inquiry.
12 Please leave the courtroom with the usher and we'll deal with outstanding
13 matters as quickly as possible and let you know whether you can leave as
14 quickly as possible.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 [The witness withdrew]
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Since at this point in time that is likely -- that
18 is all the evidence that's available for the Tribunal's consideration,
19 subject to various things I'm going to deal with. We should try today to
20 clear the decks of as many outstanding issues as possible, and on Friday
21 I listed a number. Some have been attended to, a number have not, and
22 the ones I'm now going to deal with include the outstanding ones from
23 Friday plus others which were not raised at that stage. When we adjourn,
24 we will expect work to be done on this so that at some stage today,
25 sooner rather than later, as many of these as possible can be removed
1 from the agenda.
2 Now, a number of them relate to items which have been uploaded
3 either to replace other exhibits because of amendment or as English
4 translations to accompany exhibits, and those ones largely await reaction
5 from the Prosecution. It should be possible to deal with the majority of
6 these in the course of this morning. So if you can separately,
7 Mr. Hannis, compile a list of those as I go through them and knowing that
8 we expect a response, that would be helpful.
9 I'm going to deal with these according to the order in which
10 response -- the order of where responsibility lies. So I'll start with
11 those that are there at the initiation of the Prosecution and then
12 proceed through the various accused.
13 Outstanding for the Prosecution, first of all, P2804, that was to
14 be submitted to CLSS for a revised translation due back yesterday?
15 MR. HANNIS: It was due back yesterday, but it's not back yet.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that's one to be considered and responded to
18 Secondly, the identity documents of the witness Sadiku. You have
19 a motion, Mr. Hannis, to admit P3141 and the Lukic Defence seek the
20 admission of 6D1666. It seems reasonable that if your exhibit's to be
21 admitted that theirs should also. The outstanding issue relates to the
22 translation of P3141. Has it been translated?
23 MR. HANNIS: It has, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that translation needs to be uploaded. It
25 doesn't appear to be there.
1 MR. HANNIS: We'll check on that, Your Honour. We thought it
2 was, but it's not showing up.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Subject to that, both of these can be admitted,
4 but we'll need to have that confirmed by you later.
5 Milutinovic Defence, Mr. O'Sullivan, any additional information
6 that you could provide on these two exhibits, the order P984 and IC133,
7 the Law of the Army of Yugoslavia?
8 MR. O'SULLIVAN: That's being filed today, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: It has been or will be?
10 MR. O'SULLIVAN: It will be. In the next few minutes it should
11 be filed.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Could you make four courtesy copies or five and
13 let us have them for our break?
14 MR. O'SULLIVAN: I can, yes.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, the Sainovic Defence, the revised expert
16 report has been uploaded to e-court.
17 Mr. Hannis, are you able to clarify your position on that or do
18 you wish to take it under advisement?
19 MR. HANNIS: May I take it under advisement?
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Sorry?
21 MR. HANNIS: May I take it under advisement?
22 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.
23 2D346, the Federal Government Rules of Procedure. A complete
24 version has now been uploaded. Again, that's in your hands, Mr. Hannis.
25 The Pavkovic Defence, the submission on 6D1619, a translation has
1 been provided of that and the document was used with the current witness
2 in court yesterday, so it has been admitted and there will be no further
3 written order, Mr. Lukic -- sorry, Mr. Ackerman. That's 6D1619.
4 Mr. Ackerman, the corrections to the OTP interview of
5 General Pavkovic, what is the situation?
6 MR. ACKERMAN: I have no knowledge at all about that,
7 Your Honour.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, Mr. Aleksic --
9 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm at a complete loss.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: -- batted it your way on Friday in court.
11 MR. ALEKSIC: [In English] Not me. [Interpretation] Mr. Hannis
12 said that he communicated with --
13 MR. HANNIS: Mr. Ackerman and I can talk during the break.
14 MR. ACKERMAN: We'll try that, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: The Lazarevic Defence now. The motion for
16 admission of documents from the bar table filed on the 19th of May,
17 that's on Monday, will be determined in due course. The Prosecution
18 should respond to that by Friday of this week.
19 Now, there are 76 documents, I appreciate it's a large number,
20 but it looks as though you may have time on your hands. Another of these
21 where we -- well, where the response of the Prosecution is awaited in
22 relation to translation is 5D1114 and also -- sorry, yes, 5D1428 and
24 Now, the Lukic Defence, the videos used with the
25 witness Zlatkovic have been re-disclosed as ordered. Now, have you
1 received these, Mr. Hannis?
2 MR. HANNIS: Yes, we have. I have no objection.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, one can be dealt with. The new versions of
4 6D295 and 6D1633 will be admitted in substitution for the existing
5 versions. 6D347, exhibit used with the witness Debeljkovic, English
6 translation, so that's another one for you, Mr. Hannis. 6D5 -- sorry,
7 6D356, 6D353, 6D344, 6D345, 6D604, 6D1251, these all require your
8 response in relation to translations, Mr. Hannis.
9 The Lukic witness statement -- sorry, that's confusing. The
10 witness statements that had been altered, these were advised to the
11 Trial Chamber by e-mail, Mr. Ivetic, and that was satisfactory for our
12 initial purposes. But they do need to be uploaded into e-court.
13 MR. IVETIC: That will be done today. That's in the process of
14 being done -- it is actually done actually. They are already in the
15 system, I just don't know if they have been released -- they have been
16 released as well. So that should already be in the system.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Haider, could you check 6D1631, is that
19 Well, in that event, we will admit these revised versions as ...
20 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
21 JUDGE BONOMY: What's the position with the original statements,
22 Mr. Ivetic? Are these the identical numbers or are these being given new
24 MR. IVETIC: Those are the same numbers that these statements had
25 originally. The only difference was that, I believe, the translations --
1 the English translations of the original Serbian statements were being
2 replaced by the CLSS officials, the --
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah.
4 MR. IVETIC: Where the full translation is CLSS as opposed to
5 partially CLSS.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis, is there a reason for keeping two
7 English versions on -- in relation to these documents?
8 MR. HANNIS: Not that I can think of at the moment, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, they were the ones that were troubling you
10 because of the fact that CLSS had done the translation initially but then
11 there had been amendments to the statements and the Lukic Defence
12 arranged for other translations of the parts which were amended.
13 MR. HANNIS: Yes, and do you know what's troubling me was not
14 knowing which parts were which --
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, you were also troubled by the question
16 whether there might be further evidence required from any of these
18 MR. HANNIS: And, Your Honour, I haven't looked at the new ones
19 yet to see if there's any difference that would raise that issue. I
20 doubt that there is, but I need a little time to do that.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, what we shall do is admit these new English
22 translations as additional parts of these exhibits, and they are 6D1631,
23 1492, 1530, 1533, 1606, and 1614.
24 Mr. Lukic, bar table matters not yet submitted, are there many?
25 MR. IVETIC: Is that in reference to the Rule 70 materials?
1 We're waiting for the Rule 70 provider, that's four documents.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: And that's all?
3 MR. IVETIC: Yes, everything else, I believe, is in our motion
4 and has been submitted for translation or is in the process of being
5 translated for those that were not translated.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: If we were to determine a final date for the
7 submission of all exhibits from the bar table for your defence case and
8 all translations and make that a week on Friday, the 30th of May, you
9 will make it, will you?
10 MR. IVETIC: I can't speak for the translations, Your Honour.
11 That's --
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, you know how many there are; I don't.
13 MR. IVETIC: There are a significant number. We can only say we
14 can try to get as much done by that date as possible if that's the date
15 that Your Honour submits. We -- as -- we work -- as you can see we work
16 as many hours as we can to get those done, but translations are not a
17 matter that I have much influence over.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, you do.
19 MR. IVETIC: I have some, some.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: You've got some, indeed. A great deal in fact we
21 would say.
22 MR. IVETIC: And, Your Honour, for full disclosure, I should say
23 for full answer to your question we do have the one document that
24 Your Honours have been interested in that we just received from the
25 government authorities of Serbia, 6D1667, that one has been translated
1 and is being uploaded. So when I say the only thing remaining
2 outstanding on bar table is Rule 70, that includes that this one has been
3 completed and will be in the system.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, the dead-line, Mr. Ivetic, for any further
7 bar table motions will be the 30th of May and the dead-line for the
8 submission of all translations will be the 30th of May.
9 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour. And for the record, line
10 30 -- paragraph -- page 30, line 21, the exhibit in question was 6D1667,
11 I see that didn't make it into the transcript.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
13 MR. IVETIC: And as I'm on my feet, there was one other -- in
14 your list of outstanding requests for documents that had been MFI'd to be
15 introduced there was one that we have that wasn't on your list, 6D1489, a
16 request was filed on the 29th of April in that matter, Your Honours, so I
17 don't know whether that's already been dealt with or not but it was
18 absent in the list that you recited to Mr. Hannis a while ago.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: I will check that.
20 Mr. Hannis, you could perhaps look and see if that is another
21 that you can respond to.
22 Now, the interview of General Lukic with the OTP, there is
23 outstanding a motion and it will be dealt with shortly. I had expected
24 it to be done by today but for various reasons it has not been possible.
25 But that doesn't alter the fact that there may be corrections. Now, have
1 you been discussing corrections?
2 MR. IVETIC: It was my understanding that we had marked items for
3 retranslation along with the Sainovic Defence and had -- I believe that
4 had been submitted some time ago. I'm not positive about that, but I
5 believe it had been submitted --
6 JUDGE BONOMY: To the Prosecution?
7 MR. IVETIC: I --
8 MR. HANNIS: Yeah, we received those from the Lukic Defence the
9 same time we received the ones that Mr. Fila sent us, and that has all
10 gone to CLSS. And you will recall --
11 JUDGE BONOMY: What do Mr. Fila's relate to, sorry, Mr. Hannis?
12 MR. HANNIS: He selected certain portions of the Lukic interview
13 that he had concerns about.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.
15 MR. HANNIS: And you will recall CLSS for some follow-up guidance
16 on what we wanted them to do, and that was provided to them and I'm not
17 sure what the status is but it is with CLSS.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you.
19 One further translation issue, Mr. Ivetic, 6D1667 used during
20 the examination of Dujkovic. I think you've obtained a MUP dispatch that
21 was to explain the communications system.
22 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honour, a courtesy copy of the
23 translations has been sent. This is the document I made reference to
24 earlier that has a translation and is in the process of being uploaded
25 and released into e-court.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Ah, sorry, I should have picked that up. So
2 that's another one for Mr. Hannis to deal with but he won't be in a
3 position to do that today? Is that --
4 MR. IVETIC: I don't want to speak for Mr. Hannis, but I presume
5 he probably may not be in a position to deal with it until later today or
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
8 It looks like you're the man with the answers to provide,
9 Mr. Hannis, and that Mr. Ackerman has the obligation of a discussion with
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE BONOMY: What we propose is adjourning for an hour. Is
13 that going to be enough, Mr. Hannis?
14 MR. HANNIS: I don't know, Your Honour. I'll do my best during
15 that time.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: If you want to communicate informally, if it's
17 proving difficult, and we might extend that time without assembling the
18 court for that purpose. But let's see what can be achieved first of all
19 and we'll adjourn for the moment until 11.30.
20 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
21 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.
22 --- On resuming at 12.07 p.m.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: First of all, does anyone wish to ask any further
24 questions of Mr. Djakovic?
25 MR. HANNIS: No, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: There being no one wishing to do that, he can now
2 be discharged. Immediately this hearing finishes the further information
3 he's added will be distributed to everyone, it includes certain
4 annotations trying to clarify certain matters that he's written and
5 further information about localities.
6 Now, I'll go through the outstanding matters, Mr. Hannis, that we
7 should be able to dispose of. P2804.
8 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, as indicated, I'm advised that that
9 will be completed by the close of business today, and we would ask
10 permission to upload it once it's received.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Where requests are made for translations to be
12 admitted as in these circumstances, parties should understand as a matter
13 of practice from now on that unless they indicate within 24 hours any
14 challenge, the Tribunal will -- the Chamber will proceed to pronounce an
15 order dealing with the item.
16 The identity document, Mr. Hannis, which is P314 -- sorry, I
17 should have completed that by saying, yes, you make your submission as
18 soon as possible.
19 The identity document, P3141.
20 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour, it has been uploaded and released
21 and attached, and we don't have any objection to the admission of 6D1666,
22 as it seems to pertain and it would be fair to have it admitted as well.
23 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, on that issue I know that we did not
24 reply or I guess it was a response or reply indicated that there was the
25 one issue with the translation of one of those pages of the documents
1 that had some text that wasn't on the Serbian. I don't know if that's in
2 the version that's been uploaded or not since I haven't been able to see
3 it yet, my computer is still going there. But that was raised in our
4 filing so I hope that that's been addressed.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: That's P3141?
6 MR. IVETIC: Sadije Sadiku, yes.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis.
8 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I'm not sure what the issue was with
9 the translation and I can't tell you whether or not --
10 MR. IVETIC: It could be easily verified. The issue was on the
11 birth certificate it said on the top Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and
12 in the translation in the Serbian it doesn't exist because it was taken
13 out after the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia ceased to exist.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: The whole purpose of resubmitting this to CLSS was
15 because there was allegedly information in the translation that was not
16 in the original.
17 MR. IVETIC: That's correct.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: So we will admit P3141 and 6D1666.
19 Then the courtesy copy given to us by Mr. O'Sullivan in respect
20 of his filing on the Law of the Army of Yugoslavia and the passage with
21 either two or three paragraphs, we've had time to consider that.
22 Mr. Hannis, is there any reason why we should not admit IC --
23 1C -- sorry, IC133?
24 MR. HANNIS: No, I have no objection.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well, that will be admitted, Mr. O'Sullivan.
1 That matter's now resolved.
2 There are then two Sainovic documents where we await your
3 reaction, Mr. Hannis.
4 MR. HANNIS: No objection to either of those.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: We shall admit 2D393 and 2D346.
6 Corrections to the Pavkovic interview.
7 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour, it had been brought to our
8 attention I think by the Chamber actually through a Legal Officer that
9 there was apparently one mistake. I've spoken with Mr. Ackerman. He has
10 no additional ones. I noted what seemed to be one additional one on that
11 same page. So we propose to submit that page, I think it's page 109 in
12 e-court, of Exhibit P948, and we requested to have a translation of that
13 page back by this Friday. And we would then seek to substitute that page
14 into e-court or attach it, whichever's the most logistically appropriate
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Probably substitute it.
17 Mr. Ackerman.
18 MR. ACKERMAN: No objection, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well.
20 We will order that that filing should be submitted by Friday.
21 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, if I could just intervene, I have
22 finally opened the document, P3141, the error in translation remains in
23 the translation that is in e-court. It says Federal Republic of
24 Yugoslavia, whereas the Serbian does not have that information, and the
25 seal is different, it's of a different state.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE BONOMY: We will reconsider the decision I made a moment
3 ago and revoke the order admitting P3141. We have Mr. Hannis's
4 submission on that, and Mr. Ivetic will respond hopefully within 24
5 hours. And unless between the two of you it can be sorted out quicker
6 than that and we'll just have to pronounce a written order.
7 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I'm willing to resubmit it to CLSS to
8 revise that because I think Mr. Ivetic is correct from what I can see.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, the resubmission can't have made clear what
10 was required, Mr. Hannis.
11 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I'm willing to do what's most
12 expeditious --
13 JUDGE BONOMY: No, please do it, it will be necessary, in which
14 case we will leave it to you to make the appropriate filing.
15 MR. HANNIS: Okay.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: But we'll order you to do that by Friday.
17 MR. HANNIS: Thank you. We will.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: There were then certain Lazarevic documents
19 awaiting your reaction, 5D1114 and 1428 and 1459.
20 MR. HANNIS: No objection to any of those three.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you very much. They will be admitted.
22 Then turning to the Lukic case, 6D347.
23 MR. HANNIS: No objection.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: That will be admitted.
25 And then there's a series, 356, 353, 344, and 345.
1 MR. HANNIS: No objection.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: These will be admitted. Then 6D604 and 6D1251.
3 MR. HANNIS: 604, as I understand the application, was for
4 certain pages from that entire document, and as proposed no objection.
5 And no objection to 1251.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: It's 38 pages, and therefore both that and 1251
7 will be admitted.
8 Now, I understand that the corrections in the Lukic interview
9 have been translated. Has that translation been uploaded, Mr. Hannis?
10 MR. HANNIS: It's --
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Oh, yes --
12 MR. HANNIS: -- in the process as I understand it, Your Honour.
13 And I guess a word of explanation. It appears that CLSS made their
14 entries in red on the document, so where there is the English, for
15 example, Investigator Curtis asked questions in English, then there is a
16 B/C/S translation by the interpreter on site during the interview, and
17 CLSS in some of those places where there was an issue has put what the
18 B/C/S says and you'll see there might be some slight variation in that
19 English translation from what the original English was for whatever
20 argument there is to be made from it. From my view, it doesn't appear to
21 be serious differences, but it's not exactly word for word.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Do you intend to make a filing in response then?
23 It's the Lukic Defence that have uploaded this I think -- are we at
24 cross-purposes here? We're talking about 6D1667.
25 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry, I'm talking about something else,
1 Your Honour. I thought you were talking about the Lukic interview.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Sorry, let's go to the interview then in that
3 case. In relation to the interview, you should have received now an
4 English -- a translation of the parts that were to be corrected; is that
6 MR. HANNIS: Correct.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: And you better repeat -- since I was thinking
8 about something else you better repeat what you said.
9 MR. HANNIS: It's in the process of being uploaded and what
10 changes or what additions CLSS made in the transcript in the highlighted
11 portions that we requested them to look at are in red ink. Everything
12 else is in black so you can see what CLSS has done.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Ivetic, is there any objections from your
14 point of view to the admission of this translation?
15 MR. IVETIC: Yes, we filed an objection for other reasons. I
16 haven't seen these. I would have to look through them to see what -- and
17 I assume if they're translated they're translated so that shouldn't be an
18 issue. But I haven't seen the translations as yet because it was sent by
19 the OTP so we don't have a -- and CLSS can't give us copies and you have
20 to get --
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Since we are to deal with the question of the
22 interview, it would be necessary for you to make any filing you want to
23 make about the translation question separately but within 24 hours.
24 MR. IVETIC: 24 hours. Thank you, Your Honour, we will.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: And, Mr. Petrovic, this affects you, I think, as
2 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we did, indeed, raise
3 those objections in terms of the content of the transcript, while it
4 wasn't clear that the content of this interview would not directly relate
5 to our client. Since this question was resolved ultimately through your
6 decision, we accept any procedure that the Lukic Defence and the
7 Prosecutor agree on. We waive our objections.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
9 Well, there will be a written order dealing with this interview
10 and it will deal with the question of the translation at the same time.
11 That -- there's then 6D1667, now that's a translation which has been
12 uploaded, Mr. Hannis, but have you had time to see this one?
13 MR. HANNIS: I have, Your Honour, and we have no objection.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well. 6D1667 translation will be admitted.
15 You raised as an omission from the list, Mr. Ivetic, 6D1489. In
16 fact, that is a document on your bar table motion, and until the bar
17 table motion is dealt with the translation can't really be dealt with.
18 MR. IVETIC: That's fine then in that case, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Are there any other procedural issues parties wish
20 us to address?
21 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I think there was the issue regarding
22 the revised versions of the Lukic witness statements, and I have no
23 objection to those.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: I think I already said that these were admitted,
25 and the outstanding question was whether to substitute them for the
1 existing exhibit or whether both should remain and for the moment it was
2 both. Now, if you're satisfied they can be substituted then that
3 progresses matters because that will have to be resolved.
4 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I'm satisfied with them being
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Well, that will happen in the case of
7 each of these exhibits, and they are 6D1631, 1492, 1530, 1533, 1606, and
8 1614. Very well. Thank you.
9 MR. HANNIS: May I raise two questions with Your Honour?
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, Mr. Hannis.
11 MR. HANNIS: One, you indicated that from now on the general rule
12 regarding these translations would be if there was no objection from a
13 party within 24 hours then they would be allowed in. I know there's --
14 you set a dead-line for the 30th of May for the Defence -- for
15 Lukic Defence regarding their outstanding translations. I don't know how
16 many there are. I think there's still a substantial number. The 30th of
17 May falls on a Friday and depending on how many there are I would like to
18 have additional time so I don't have to work 24 hours on Saturday to try
19 and respond. Maybe I'll have no objections, but I just don't know. So I
20 would request now some dead-line beyond 24 hours for those particular
22 JUDGE BONOMY: For the ones that arrive on the 30th?
23 MR. HANNIS: Yes.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Well, for any that arrive on the 30th,
25 we will allow you until the Wednesday to deal with them.
1 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Should there be a situation where additional time
3 is required, then you know that you should apply to us, but that
4 application should be made within 24 hours of receiving the document
5 unless it falls on the 30th of May.
6 MR. HANNIS: I understand.
7 I see Mr. Ackerman on his feet.
8 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, there's an ancillary issue that may cause
9 confusion and that is the untranslated documents that are listed in the
10 Lukic bar table motion. I trust those are not affected by the May 30th
11 dead-line issue, I don't know, because they haven't even been dealt with
12 with regard to admission yet. But we had both -- Mr. Hannis and I both
13 requested in our objections that we be given additional time to deal with
14 those that have not yet been translated in terms of objecting to the bar
15 table. So I don't know how you want to handle that, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, the 30th of May is the dead-line for the
17 translations, and we will separately deal with the issue that you raise
18 on the understanding that the English versions will be there by the 30th.
19 MR. HANNIS: The last thing, Your Honour, was a logistical
20 question regarding the additions that General Djakovic now has made by
21 writing out --
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.
23 MR. HANNIS: And I'm not sure how we should put those into
24 e-court in connection with P1468 because we have made a number of
25 references to the pre-existing page numbers without the newly identified
1 illegible portions.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: That will be dealt with in the way I indicated
3 earlier, which is by a joint filing by all parties. So it is for you to
4 reach agreement on what you do. It would probably be best to keep what
5 he has written separate -- as a separate document but part of that
6 exhibit; however, if it emerges from your consideration of the whole
7 issue that the revisal should be incorporated into one complete version
8 of 1468, including his revisals, then you would make an appropriate
9 filing and we would consider it. But you rightly point out the
10 difficulty associated with that in respect that references have been made
11 to the document a number of times. However, you could probably satisfy
12 yourself whether that is a difficulty and decide what's the best way to
13 do it.
14 We are asking CLSS to deal with this as a matter of urgency, and
15 I envisage this being done this week and the parties being in a position
16 to make this filing at the beginning of next week at the latest but
17 hopefully by the end of this week. Mr. Haider will deal with it
18 immediately we adjourn.
19 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
20 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Haider is suggesting that we give an IC number
22 to the handwritten version provided by Mr. Djakovic. I think we should
23 do that and we will.
24 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
25 JUDGE BONOMY: So since that includes the place names that he was
1 clarifying then, if we give that one document an IC number for the moment
2 it will be on the record.
3 THE REGISTRAR: That will be IC199, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
5 As the parties here are aware but as is not yet publicly known,
6 the Trial Chamber has endeavoured to secure the attendance of certain
7 Chamber witnesses in addition to Mr. Djakovic. The Chamber has been
8 unable to secure the attendance of Christopher Hill, Boris Majorski and
9 Aleksandar Dimitrijevic. We will therefore adjourn now until the 22nd of
10 July at 11.00 a.m., when we will hear closing arguments. We hope to have
11 the rest of the 22nd of July available to us and we hope to have the
12 following three full days, but that remains to be determined. The
13 precise allocation we can secure cannot be clarified to us at this
14 moment. We are confident there will be adequate time during these four
15 days leading to the final day of this term, that's the 25th, for the
16 closing arguments of the parties, that's almost nine weeks from now.
17 In the meantime, final briefs are due on the 8th of July but the
18 Chamber would be greatly assisted by the earlier production of these
19 briefs if any party finds it possible to do that.
20 So we now adjourn until the 22nd of July.
21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.30 p.m.,
22 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 22nd day of
23 July, 2008, at 11.00 a.m.