1 Monday, 18 January 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [Status Conference]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.
5 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honour. Good morning,
8 everyone in and around the courtroom.
9 This is case number IT-05-87-A, the Prosecutor versus
10 Sainovic et al.
11 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Thank you very much.
12 May I now have the appearances for the parties. The Prosecution
14 MS. BAIG: Good morning, Your Honour. Laurel Baig appearing for
15 the Prosecution, with my colleague Barbara Goy and our case manager,
16 Lourdes Galicia
17 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Now for the Defence counsel, please.
18 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. President. I am
19 Toma Fila, and I am representing the Defence for Mr. Sainovic.
20 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. I am
21 Tomislav Visnjic. I'm representing General Ojdanic.
22 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
23 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. I am
24 Aleksandar Aleksic, and I am the co-counsel for General Pavkovic. Thank
25 you very much.
1 MR. CEPIC: Good morning, Your Honour. I am Djuro Cepic, Defence
2 counsel for General Vladimir Lazarevic.
3 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
4 MR. IVETIC: Dan Ivetic, co-counsel, along with lead counsel
5 Branko Lukic on behalf of Mr. Sreten Lukic.
6 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
7 Before the start, I would like to know whether the parties can
8 hear the proceedings in a language that they understand.
9 Mr. Sainovic, can you hear the proceedings in a language that you
11 THE ACCUSED SAINOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I can.
12 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Ojdanic?
13 THE ACCUSED OJDANIC: [Interpretation] Also, I can follow the
14 proceedings. Thank you.
15 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Mr. Pavkovic.
16 THE ACCUSED PAVKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I can
17 follow the proceedings.
18 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Mr. Lazarevic.
19 THE ACCUSED LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, I can
20 follow the proceedings.
21 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Mr. Lukic.
22 THE ACCUSED LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Yes, I can
23 follow the proceedings, Your Honour. Thank you.
24 JUDGE LIU: During the proceedings, if there is any problems that
25 you could not follow the proceedings, please let me know as soon as
2 This Status Conference is called in accordance with the
3 Rule 65 bis of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence of the Tribunal.
4 Rule 65 ter bis (B) requires a Status Conference to be convened within
5 120 days after the filing of the notice of appeal and thereafter within
6 120 days after last Status Conference, to allow any person in custody,
7 pending appeal, the opportunity to raise issues in relation thereto,
8 including the mental and physical conditions of that person.
9 In the present case, the last Status Conference was held on the
10 25th September 2009
11 issued on the 2nd December 2009.
12 First of all, I would like to inquire into the status of the
13 detention conditions and the health situation of Mr. Sainovic,
14 Mr. Ojdanic, Mr. Pavkovic, Mr. Lazarevic, and Mr. Lukic. If you have any
15 concerns in relation to the detention conditions or your status of health
16 that cannot be resolved through the standard procedures, I would invite
17 you to raise them now. If you wish, the discussion may take place in
18 private session.
19 Any response from the Defence teams?
20 Yes, Mr. Lazarevic. If you want to have the session be held in
21 the private session, just let me know.
22 THE ACCUSED LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, there is
23 no need to move into private session. I would like to thank you for the
24 opportunity to allow me to speak also on this occasion, and also I would
25 like to inform you about my health concerns.
1 Today, I have at least two more reasons to speak than I had
2 during the prior Status Conference. The first reason is that I would
3 like to inform you, myself, and my Defence and me personally, how we
4 implemented the orders that you issued in the previous Status Conference.
5 And, secondly, I would like you -- as a detainee and patient, to inform
6 you personally about the problems which we are unable to resolve within
7 the unit.
8 First of all, regarding your previous orders, I would like to
9 inform you that my Defence has diligently adhered to and implemented the
10 issued orders. I would like to inform you specifically that I
11 specifically, pursuant to your order, spoke with the Detention Unit head,
12 with the Deputy Registrar, and with the doctor at the Detention Unit. I
13 spoke on a number of occasions about the specific issues regarding my
15 After those conversations, it is my view that the only positive
16 thing that arose is that the entire DU Medical Unit has more diligently
17 been dealing with this matter, in the sense that they sought some
18 specialist examinations at the Bronovo Hospital
19 immediately, though, like to say that to date, even though they have done
20 their best, there have been no results. In any event, I am grateful to
21 them. Unfortunately, since the last Status Conference and the one before
22 that, so in the three months after August and the six months after that,
23 not one single medical specialist in Holland has examined me in regard to
24 16 diagnosed illnesses from the discharge list that have been placed at
25 the disposal of this Tribunal. Simply, none of them have been responding
1 or dealing with the problem that I talked about in August, when I came
2 from my most recent surgery, and since that last Status Conference.
3 Instead of that, the Detention Unit doctor informed, in a page and a
4 half, the Registry of the Tribunal, and I believe probably the
5 Appeals Chamber as well, how he personally rejects some diagnoses and
6 some diagnoses were not accepted by the Bronovo Hospital
7 this was done on the basis of conversations [as interpreted] between this
8 doctor and those specialists. I received this report, which has resulted
9 in extreme resignation, disappointment, and disbelief on my part.
10 MR. CEPIC: I apologise for interrupting. Just if my client
11 could speak slowlier [sic], and I just found one mistake in translation.
12 Page 5, line 3, it has to be "telephone conversation," not just
13 "conversation." Thank you very much.
14 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Yes.
15 THE ACCUSED LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand.
16 Anyway, this resignation and disappointment has to do with the
17 fact that I cannot accept -- I cannot understand that a detainee's health
18 condition can be reported on in an institution of this kind.
19 Having in mind that I, personally, on the 27th of October, 2009
20 after a conversation with the Registrar, informed the Registry in
21 writing, on seven pages of writing, and I believe that probably also was
22 delivered to you and the Appeals Chamber, I explained the problems in
23 making such a report. I'm not going to go into that right now, but I
24 would like to ask you to allow me to point just to two matters which are
25 simply unacceptable as far as such report by a doctor is concerned.
1 A general practitioner states in that report that he rejects
2 certain diagnoses himself, without any kind of medical examination. As
3 for the others, not all of them, some were rejected by those doctors with
4 whom he had had telephone conversations.
5 As far as I am concerned, this is something that is quite
6 disturbing. This conduct is quite disturbing, and that is why,
7 Mr. President, with due respect, I'm asking myself -- I don't wish to
8 insult anyone, so I'm putting to myself this question before you and in
9 this session: What sort of a medical system and in what country is it
10 possible, without a clinical examination, for a general practitioner to
11 refute the diagnoses by a number of scientific institutions and fail to
12 follow the prescribed therapies by specialists?
13 The second thing from that report is the doctor, in the report,
14 refers to my health condition before I came to the Detention Unit in
15 2003, and he also mentions 2005, when, due to the low intensity of my
16 brain illness, that was the situation, but does not inform the Court
17 about my state of health in 2007, 2008, and 2009, whereby I think that he
18 is misleading the Appeals Chamber as well as the doctors that he has been
19 speaking with, because he's talking about a past state and not things as
20 they are at present.
21 I'm not going to mention other problems because the Registry has
22 all of those in written form.
23 Mr. President, with all due respect, I would like to believe,
24 despite all of this and despite such conduct and such reporting, that
25 this attitude in respect of my health is not a result of any particular
1 intention or, God forbid, it's -- it to be some sort of integral part of
2 the court proceedings. I believe that this attitude so far in the
3 Detention Unit at one point in time last year had placed my life in
4 danger during an operation here in The Hague.
5 I would also like to inform you that the Trial Chamber also had
6 encountered problems of this type that I am now bringing to your
7 attention, and it issued an order to my Defence counsel to monitor my
8 medical health and to keep the Presiding Judge of the Trial Chamber
9 informed about it. And the Trial Chamber had engaged a special doctor,
10 an independent doctor, so to say, who wrote a special report last year,
11 and this report speaks quite differently about what I have just told you
12 about, and it also confirms what I am saying.
13 As far as I have been informed, the Government of Serbia had
14 recently also been in contact with the Tribunal with the kind request
15 that the Tribunal and the Appeals Chamber would lend a hand in order to
16 provide proper treatment for me.
17 I would also personally like to inform you that in respect of
18 those 16 diagnoses of illnesses, especially the most serious ones that
19 had to do with the brain illness, cardiovascular disease, and diseases of
20 the skeleton, and others, they are - here at the Tribunal as well as the
21 Medical Unit of the DU - medical findings. These are documents beyond
22 dispute not only from the medical/clinical aspect. They cannot be
23 contested, but these are also court documents, and no Court can dispute
24 such documents. These are MRI
25 and so forth. These findings do not leave room for a discretionary
1 opinion of doctors. There is no difference of opinion where someone can
2 think this or somebody can think that. This is scientific evidence,
3 tests performed by apparatus. So doctors cannot disagree about something
4 in the Detention Unit with doctors -- specialists who are in Serbia
5 findings confirmed by doctors in Holland last year and the year before.
6 That is why my conclusion, in relation to this first issue, I'm afraid,
7 is that I am just simply speechless. I am making a final appeal to you,
8 Your Honour, to put an end to these -- like a game of Chinese whispers
9 and to do something before it is too late, because the efficiency of the
10 Detention Unit guards to make sure that I'm still alive every half an
11 hour and to keep checking on me every half an hour is something that
12 really is not going to calm me down and reassure me.
13 I hope that you will grant my request and take into account my
14 opinion. Those alleged specialists, who give diagnosis remotely, without
15 an actual examination, would need to write this down. This then could be
16 translated for me into Serbian and given to me so that I could know what
17 it is exactly that they are talking about and what they exactly mean,
18 because I haven't even seen them for the past six months. Then I promise
19 that I will no longer disturb either you, or the Registry, or the
20 proceedings, and I am just going to accept my fate.
21 I must add, though, that the final decision regarding my health,
22 my life, lies and rests with me, without the participation of anybody's
23 goodwill or intentions of any institutions or individuals. This is the
24 first question.
25 And the second one, Your Honour, and I do appeal for some
1 patience on your part, Your Honour, in the meantime for the past six
2 months, when we have -- without result, have been urging for a
3 continuation of my treatment according to the discharge papers from
4 August of last year, or seeking to have new specialist examinations
5 conducted here in Holland
6 state of health, and a few other illnesses have surfaced which the last
7 time, at the previous Status Conference, I was not aware of because I did
8 not have any manifestations of these illnesses. Allow me to let you know
9 what these diseases are and that they have been registered here in
11 disease was verified on Friday, on the 15th of January, 2010, and this
12 disease directly burdens the heart and the brain, which requires the
13 urgent engagement of a neurologist and cardiologist. When I say
14 "urgently," that means that judging by my experiences to date, during the
15 next two years. And I am kindly asking, if it's possible, that we be
16 allowed to wait for the next two years to see how this disease is
18 The second disease is established by a biochemical analysis which
19 I suggested after considerable abdominal and stomach pains. There was a
20 helicobacterium discovered which activated an ulcer, because this is
21 something that I suffered from before, and fortunately and thanks to my
22 efforts, treatment has been started and we are going to see if we're
23 going to be successful in treating and curing this illness.
24 Thirdly, there have been new problems with the cardiovascular
25 systems. These are frequent occurrences of me collapsing, continuous
1 head pain, varying blood pressure, and very, very fast pulse in all
2 conditions, during the day and during the night, indicating quite serious
3 disturbances of the overall cardiovascular system, primarily the heart.
4 For a few months now, we have been waiting for a neurological exam.
5 These are three new diseases.
6 On Friday evening, on the 15th of January, my Defence informed me
7 from Belgrade
8 surgery of a blood clot in my right leg. I don't know the entire
9 explanation, why our request was rejected, but I would like to inform you
10 that as of five days ago, the DU doctor himself saw that the blood clot
11 in my leg is active, that there is an inflammation there once again, that
12 there is pain, as well as the danger of a dramatic deterioration.
13 Certain treatment has been promised, but over the past five days I was
14 not treated in any way, only warned that if the blood clot would move
15 above the knee during the night or whenever, that I should call urgently.
16 At that time, Your Honour, I'm not going to need any assistance, if the
17 blood clot moves above the knee. I am quite convinced of that.
18 So without any pathetic -- without any pathos, quite responsibly
19 and seriously, I would like to warn all those in charge about this
20 particular disease, because this is like a ticking bomb which does not
21 activate itself according to the desires of a doctor or anyone else, or
22 the Trial Chamber, but this is a latent danger. This is something
23 established by top vascular surgeons in Serbia, and they requested for an
24 urgent surgery to be performed on my right leg.
25 Your Honour, therefore, during the past three months between the
1 two Status Conferences, while we were wasting time going back and forth
2 about which diagnosis was correct, and while waiting for Godot, I would
3 say, or rather, the engagement of the doctors, the specialists who would
4 help me and treat me, new diseases have appeared which are now ravaging
5 the remaining organs in my organism, primarily my heart, which I never
6 had any problems with before. As a detainee and patient, I am left to
7 God's mercy.
8 A few years ago, the World Health Organisation introduced a new
9 diagnosis which is called a systemic disease, a disease affecting the
10 entire organism, which is evidently something that I am suffering from.
11 Mr. President, I'm quite aware of the fact that it is up to you
12 to decide about my life within court proceedings. I also realise that
13 you have the right to decide on my life and on my health by deciding or
14 not deciding that I'm entitled to a surgery or to a certain treatment.
15 And I wish to inform you, with respect to that, of the following.
16 My Defence and I kindly ask you to allow me to have a surgery of
17 my leg affected by thrombosis. It doesn't have to be performed in
19 the surgery to take place in Serbia
20 of treating that illness as well as other conditions and illnesses that I
21 have, because all medical facilities in Serbia would be made available to
23 I hope you won't take it against me if I tell you that when I had
24 my last surgery at the Military Hospital
1 flown in from San Diego
2 example to illustrate just how seriously and responsibly they approach my
3 treatment there and how it will be done should you allow me to be treated
4 in Serbia
5 my leg affected by thrombosis in any country in the world. Should the
6 Dutch doctor refuse to perform such a surgery, I'm sure that there are
7 other doctors in Europe
8 from Germany
9 examine my leg.
10 I wish to inform you that the Government of Serbia is prepared to
11 cover all the costs regarding engaging a team of doctors who would come
12 to Holland
13 find a joint position, should one need to be found. However, time is of
14 the essence here.
15 Esteemed Mr. President, in Serbia we have a saying: A healthy
16 person does not believe an ill person. I personally would prefer not to
17 believe the doctors who examined me and found me to have all these
18 diseases. However, the harsh reality is forcing me to believe these
19 doctors, because for days and months and years now I'm using -- I've been
20 using 17 different kinds of medication daily, and despite that, I suffer
21 from intolerable pain in various parts of my body. This why I'm asking
22 you directly, invoking humane principles, and also especially in the
23 interests of truth and justice, to help me in order to stabilise my
24 general condition of health. If you are not prepared to do that, I am
25 kindly asking to be given your ruling as soon as possible in order to
1 take desperate measures, if necessary. And I wouldn't like to spend more
2 time on this today.
3 I would now like to thank you for your time and patience in
4 listening me out when it comes to these problems.
5 May I sit down, Mr. President?
6 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down, please.
7 Well, Mr. Lazarevic, I'm very glad to hear that you followed the
8 procedures I advised you during the last Status Conference, and I would
9 like to let you know that I have received a report from Dr. Falke, filed
10 on the 6th November 2009, as well as the Registrar's submission dated
11 12th November 2009
12 With respect to the latter, I know that Mr. Lazarevic has been
13 given the opportunity to discuss his medical condition and ongoing
14 treatment with the Deputy Registrar directly. I understand that his
15 health is being kept under regular review and notice that the applicable
16 complaint procedure which I have just outlined has already been clarified
17 to him, and he followed it during these proceedings.
18 It has been reiterated in my memorandum to the Deputy Registrar
19 sent on the 25th November 2009, all these circumstances have been duly
20 taken into account by the Judges of the Appeals Chamber, notably when
21 rendering the decision of the 13th January 2010 on Mr. Lazarevic's latest
22 motion for provisional release.
23 In its decision of the 13th January 2010, the Appeals Chamber
24 dismissed a request on the basis that Mr. Lazarevic failed to demonstrate
25 any change in his medical conditions since it was last considered by the
1 Appeals Chamber on the 4th August 2009, and that he has failed to show
2 why any surgery is necessary for his condition, and why, if the surgery
3 is indeed necessary, it cannot be performed in this country, the
5 As for the specific issues you raised, I'm sorry to say, in my
6 capacity as a Judge, I'm not in the position to judge your illness, but,
7 however, I would like to refer your submissions to the Registrar and to
8 the medical officers in the Detention Unit, and I hope all these matters
9 will be taken care of. And, of course, if there is any urgent issue that
10 comes up, you may inform the detention officer as soon as possible.
11 Thank you.
12 Are there any other persons who would like to raise the detention
13 or health issues?
14 Yes, Mr. Pavkovic.
15 THE ACCUSED PAVKOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would
16 also like to inform you briefly of the course of my treatment since the
17 last Status Conference. I don't know whether you have also received the
18 report on my health condition from the doctor at the Detention Unit. I
19 will be quite brief.
20 I do not wish to discuss my general state of health because, for
21 the time being, it is still under control, and for the time being, I'm
22 feeling well, but I wish to bring to your attention the dental problems
23 that I'm experiencing.
24 From the last Status Conference, that is to say, during the past
25 four months, owing to the efforts of the Registrar, Deputy Registrar, and
1 the officers at the Detention Unit, they finally started treating me for
2 dental problems. I have no complaints regarding the medical officials at
3 the Detention Unit. I also have no complaints regarding the
4 specialist -- dental specialist who is treating me currently. However, I
5 wish to inform you that in almost four months they have managed to solve
6 only perhaps one-third of my medical complaints. We are now back to
7 where we were last year, which is to say that during one month [as
8 interpreted] they managed to treat only one tooth. And I don't see how
9 my problems will be resolved in the following year or year and a half,
10 due to how the work is organised at the Detention Unit.
11 The doctor comes only once a week. He has a large number of
12 patients. He always sees me. However, the treatment is proceeding
13 extremely slowly. I think that they need to undertake more radical
14 measures to resolve the problems, because I have another three inflamed
15 areas that need treatment, and I don't think that they will manage to do
16 it in the next year or year and a half.
17 In the meantime, I'm experiencing pain. The doctors at the
18 Detention Unit are not ignoring me and my pain, but I really don't get
19 much help. I'm experiencing pain as we speak, and that's also causing me
20 to have headaches.
21 I think that the problem can be resolved only if there is a more
22 radical involvement of medical institutions outside of the
23 Detention Unit, be it either in Holland
24 I know the medical facilities in Serbia. I know that they could resolve
25 it there, and I would like you to take this into account.
1 I have written to you or to them because I have trouble
2 contacting my lawyer who is outside of Europe. The Registry had trouble
3 forwarding my requests to the lawyers. So my proposal is for the
4 Trial Chamber to issue an order that this treatment be speeded up,
5 because if they waste another year to deal with just one crown and what
6 is happening underneath the crown, as was the case previously, then I'm
7 really not getting any effective treatment.
8 I would like to thank you for your understanding, and I have
9 chosen to approach you because of previous cases where detainees were
10 allowed by the Trial Chamber to go and receive treatment either in their
11 own country or elsewhere in the world because the treatment that we
12 receive here is way too slow.
13 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much, Mr. Pavkovic. I certainly will
14 bring this matter to the attention of the Registrar, as well as to the
15 medical officer. Thank you.
17 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, there is a mistake in
18 the transcript. Page 14, line 24, it says "months," and it should say "a
19 year." My client said that his one tooth was treated not within a month,
20 but within a year.
21 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. We'll have that checked and
22 corrected in due time.
23 Yes. I believe that's all for this section. Yes, we'll proceed.
24 Let me come to the procedural history. Before we turn to any
25 issues that parties may wish to raise, I would like to account briefly
1 the recent procedural history on this case.
2 As noted in the last Status Conference, the Defence appeals brief
3 were filed on the 23rd September 2009. In compliance with the
4 Appeals Chamber's decision of 22nd September 2009, allowing Mr. Pavkovic
5 to amend his notice of appeal, counsel for Mr. Pavkovic refiled his
6 notice of appeal and appeal brief on the 29th and the 30th September
7 2009, respectively. Counsel for Mr. Lazarevic refiled his appeals brief
8 confidentially on the 2nd October 2009, in accordance with my oral
9 decision of the 25th of September, 2009, ordering him to observe the word
10 limit imposed by the decision of the 8th September 2009. A public
11 version of his appeals brief was filed on the 20th October 2009.
12 Likewise, counsel for Mr. Lukic refiled his appeal brief on the
13 7th October 2009
14 On 16th October 2009, counsel for Mr. Ojdanic filed a motion to
15 introduce a new ground of appeal, alleging an error of law in the
16 Trial Chamber's reasoning regarding the mens rea of aiding and abetting.
17 The motion was granted by the Appeals Chamber on the 4th December 2009,
18 which accepted his second amended notice of appeal as valid filed.
19 On the 11th December 2009, counsel for Mr. Ojdanic filed an
20 amended appeal brief in compliance with the Appeals Chamber's order.
21 On the 1st October 2009, the dead-line for filing the
22 Prosecution's response briefs were extended from the 2nd November 2009
23 until 16th January 2010. I have been informed that the Registrar started
24 receiving the relevant filings on Friday, 15th January 2010, in the later
25 afternoon. I believe that procedure now is completed and that we have
1 received all five briefs with corresponding works of authority where
2 applicable. This means that reply briefs are to be filed no later than
3 the 1st or 2nd February 2010, depending on the Registry stamp on the
4 response brief.
5 The Prosecution's appeal has now been fully briefed. On the
6 2nd November 2009
7 Thereafter, the Prosecution's consolidated reply was filed confidentially
8 on the 17th November 2009.
9 The Appeals Chamber is currently seized of four motions filed
10 pursuant to Rule 115 of the Rules. First, Mr. Pavkovic filed his motion
11 confidentially on the 14th October 2009, to which the Prosecution
12 confidentially responded on the 12th November 2009. A reply was filed
13 confidentially by Mr. Pavkovic on the 25th November 2009. The
14 Appeals Chamber will render a decision on this matter in due course.
15 Second. On the 16th November 2009, Mr. Lazarevic filed his
16 confidential motion seeking the admission of additional evidence on
17 appeal. The Prosecution further filed a confidential motion for an order
18 requesting translation for excerpts of Annex E of Mr. Lazarevic's motion
19 on the 8th December 2009. The Prosecution responded confidentially on
20 the 16th December 2009
21 neither responded to the Prosecution's motion nor replied to the
22 Prosecution's response. The Appeals Chamber's decision on those motions
23 will be rendered shortly.
24 Thirdly, Mr. Sainovic filed his confidential motion for the
25 admission of additional evidence on the 26th November 2009, to which the
1 Prosecution confidentially responded on the 11th December 2009. No reply
2 was filed. The Appeals Chamber will render a decision on this matter in
3 due course.
4 Finally, on the 15th December 2009, Mr. Lukic filed his motion
5 under Rule 115 of the Rules. The Prosecution filed its response on the
6 14th January 2010
7 18th January 2010
8 The Appeals Chamber is also seized of Vlastimir Djordjevic's
9 motion for access to transcripts, excerpts, documents, pertaining to the
10 present case. The motion was filed on the 29th December 2009, and the
11 Prosecution responded on the 8th January 2010. No reply was filed. A
12 decision will be rendered by the Appeals Chamber in due course.
13 The Appeals Chamber is also currently deliberating on
14 Mr. Sainovic's motion for provisional release, which has now been fully
16 In connection with the said pending motions, I would like to
17 remind the parties that Rule 126 bis of the Rules does not apply to the
18 filings of the written submissions in appeal procedure before this
19 Tribunal. Indeed, I would like to refer the parties to the applicable
20 practice directions, notably that on the procedure for the filing on the
21 written submission in appeal proceedings before the International
22 Tribunal, dated 16th September 2005. More specifically, I draw the
23 parties' attention to the dead-lines for the response and the replies in
24 relation to the motions filed during the appeals from judgements, and the
25 fact that no leave from the Appeals Chamber is necessary for filing a
1 reply in such case.
2 At this point, I would like to ask the parties whether they have
3 any other issues that they would like to raise on this time. Is there
4 any issue the Prosecution would like to raise?
6 MS. BAIG: Yes, Your Honour. Just two small points.
7 First, you've referred to our books of authorities. I believe
8 that two of them will be filed today in relation to the filings of
9 Friday. We had some trouble. One of them needed to be filed on a CD-ROM
10 for the Registry, so it will be filed today.
11 The second point is a minor housekeeping matter. I wanted to
12 bring it to your attention that we are ready to file a public redacted
13 version of the Prosecution's reply brief. However, because not all of
14 the parties have filed a public redacted version of their response
15 briefs, we're not in a position yet to be able to do that. And we would
16 ask just for a reminder that everybody file their major briefs publicly.
17 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. I believe that is reasonable.
18 Is there any issues that the counsels would like to bring to the
19 attention of this Trial Chamber?
20 And for Mr. Sainovic, do you have any other issues that you would
21 like to raise? No.
22 And counsel for Mr. Ojdanic.
23 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
24 When it comes to the last filing of the OTP, whether it was filed
25 on Friday or today, I would like now to make an oral submission, asking
1 that the dead-line be extended and that we be allowed to exceed the word
2 limit. I think that that shouldn't be a problem, given that there's some
3 repetition regarding our recent filings. Would you allow me that?
4 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
5 Well, I think we should take your request into consideration
6 because we haven't received, fully, the filings from the Prosecution. So
7 at this moment, I'm not in the position to make a decision right now, but
8 will take your request into consideration. We might give you a written
9 decision later on. Thank you.
10 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] If I may very briefly,
11 Your Honours, give you my arguments, because we have seen what the
12 Prosecution sent us by way of a courtesy copy. Thank you.
13 The filing that the Ojdanic Defence received has 46.000 words,
14 460 paragraphs, and about 1.000 footnotes. Given the fact that we have
15 not yet received the translated judgement yet, we will need to consult
16 our client further in order to clarify both matters from the judgement
17 and matters from the filing. This will take some time, as you can
19 In addition to that, in only one sub-ground on their appeal, the
20 OTP quoted sources from 26 national legislations. I think that we will
21 need to conduct quite an extensive research of the sources quoted in the
22 OTP filing.
23 Taking into account previous practice in this case, taking into
24 account the complexity of this case and the number of filings, concurrent
25 filings, I propose, on behalf of the Ojdanic Defence, and my other
1 colleagues can give you their positions, that we be allowed an additional
2 15 days for a reply and additional 5.000 words in excess of what is
3 stated in the practice direction from 2005. We also believe that this
4 will not affect significantly the hearing on appeal. It will not extend
5 the appeal proceedings, and it will be easier for all of us to work if
6 these filings are better organised.
7 Thank you very much.
8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much for giving me the reasons for
9 this application, and I would like to know whether the other counsels
10 would like to join in your motion.
11 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I am joining in this request. Fifteen
12 additional days would be enough, but I ask that the word limit be
13 exceeded by 10.000 words, given the complexity of the Sainovic case. So
14 15 days is fine for Sainovic Defence, and additional 10.000 words.
15 Thank you.
16 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Yes.
17 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence of
18 General Pavkovic joins in with what Mr. Visnjic said, both with respect
19 to the dead-line extension and the word limit extension.
20 Thank you.
21 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
22 And, yes.
23 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour. Thank you for this
25 We also join to the proposal of my learned friend Mr. Visnjic.
1 In relation to word limit, my humble opinion is that we need maybe up to
2 18.000 words. Just to say, a couple of weeks ago I just submitted a
3 reply in my other case, and I know how is difficult to present reply in a
4 limit of 9.000 words, in definitely smaller case than this one. This
5 case, as my learned friend said, is completely different, unique up to
6 now. The judgement, which contains more than 1700 words, is the biggest
7 judgement before this Court.
8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
9 MR. CEPIC: This first issue.
10 And second issue, just to inform you that our Defence team will,
11 in a short period of time, file the new motion for provisional release,
12 just for the record.
13 Thank you very much, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
16 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, on behalf of the Sreten Lukic Defence,
17 I would join in the submissions of my colleagues. In particular, we
18 would be asking for an additional 10.000 words within the 15-day
19 additional time-limit, as specified by my colleagues. Insofar as the
20 reply brief that we have been -- received a courtesy copy of, it is
21 approximately twice the size of a standard response brief. We believe,
22 therefore, that it would be reasonable and fair to have an enlargement of
23 the word count on our reply brief of approximately double the normal
24 9.000 words, so that we think that an additional 10.000 words on top of
25 the 9.000 would be required to adequately address all the matters set
1 forth in the lengthy brief filed by the Prosecution.
2 Thank you, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
4 Are there any issues that the counsels for the Defence would like
5 to raise at this time? Well, I see none.
6 I would like to thank the Defence counsel for these submissions,
7 and I believe that your submissions will be taken into consideration, and
8 we will render a decision in a written form shortly after this Status
10 Yes, madam.
11 MS. BAIG: Your Honour, I would just like to make a few points in
12 response to my colleagues' submissions.
13 First of all, the concerns raised by Mr. Ojdanic's counsel are
14 unique to the Ojdanic response brief. None of the other briefs go into
15 details of the law in the same sort of way. The books of authorities for
16 the other response briefs are not nearly as extensive, and we would ask
17 Your Honours to take into consideration each of the briefs separately and
18 to evaluate the merits of these submissions separately with regard to
19 each accused.
20 In particular, I would note that the Pavkovic brief is
21 significantly shorter than the permissible word limit, and I would now
22 that the other four briefs, other than Ojdanic's response brief -- the
23 other four briefs rely heavily on summary dismissal. And in this regard,
24 I would note that a reply brief is restricted to dealing with new issues
25 raised in the Prosecution's response, and it is not an opportunity for
1 the parties to supplement their arguments on appeal.
2 So I do not think that in all cases the extensions that are being
3 requested are reasonable, in light of the substance of the responses.
4 So, Your Honours, I would ask you to consider these briefs individually
5 and consider the merits of the submissions, and the necessary length of
6 time for response, and the necessary extensions accordingly with regard
7 to each accused.
8 Thank you.
9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. I certainly will take your submissions
10 into consideration. Thank you very much.
11 At this moment, are there any other matters that parties would
12 like to raise? Well, I see none.
13 This concludes today's Status Conference. I thank the parties
14 for their attendance and adjourn these proceedings.
15 --- Whereupon the Status Conference
16 at 10.05 a.m.