1 Friday, 3 June 2011
2 [Initial Appearance]
3 [Open session]
4 [The accused entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 10.04 a.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
8 Could the Registrar please call the case.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. I call case number
10 IT-09-92-I, Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
12 Good morning, Mr. Mladic. I'm Judge Alphons Orie. I'll be
13 presiding over this initial appearance. To my right is
14 Judge Bakone Justice Moloto and to my left is Judge Christoph Fluegge.
15 Before we continue, could I first check that you're able to follow these
16 proceedings in a language you understand?
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I understand my mother tongue,
18 Serbian. I understand the Macedonian language because I spent many years
19 in Macedonia. As for other languages, I don't understand them --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic, important is to establish that you can
21 follow the proceedings in a language you understand and you have
22 confirmed that. If at any time you're not receiving interpretation or if
23 it is difficult for you to hear the interpretation, please let me know
24 immediately so that we can do something about it.
25 Would you please state your full name for the record.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am General Ratko Mladic.
2 JUDGE ORIE: And what is your date and place of birth, please?
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I was born on Good Monday in 1943.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic, the information we received is that you
5 would have been born on the 12th of March, 1942. Is that -- let me just
6 check that.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That is not the correct date of my
9 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll further verify that. Were you born in
10 the municipality of Kalinovik in Bosnia and Herzegovina?
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judge, I was born in the village of
12 Bozanovici. At the time I was born, there was a war going on in 1943 --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic, if you would please limit yourself to
14 answer the question at this moment. At a later stage if there's any
15 relevant matter to be raised, you have an opportunity to do so. Is the
16 place you just mentioned, is that in the municipality of Kalinovik?
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, two and a half kilometres away
18 from Kalinovik. That is where my village of Bozanovici is.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Mr. Mladic, the Chamber understands that
20 your family and the embassy of the country of which you are a national
21 have been informed about your transfer to and your detention in the
22 United Nations Detention Unit of the Tribunal in The Hague. I take it
23 that this information is correct?
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is correct.
25 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber has further been briefly informed by the
1 Registrar about your arrival in The Hague and the meetings that followed,
2 including those with representatives of the Registry. And based on this
3 information, we consider that there are no obstacles to proceed with the
4 initial appearance today. Towards the end of this session, as I just
5 told you, you will have an opportunity to raise any health-related
6 matters that you would like to bring to the attention of the Chamber.
7 We'll have some time for that at a later moment.
8 The information I just conveyed to you, is that accurate
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I did not quite understand. Could
11 you please repeat what you said and could I receive an interpretation of
12 that. I did quite understand.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could we, first of all, check that you are on
14 the right channel to receive the interpretation. He is, I see. Well, we
15 were informed by the Registry about your arrival and what happened after
16 that, including meetings you have had with representatives of the
17 Registry. Now, based on that information, the Chamber considers that
18 there are no obstacles at this moment to proceed with the initial
19 appearance today. And as I announced before, at the end of this session
20 you'll have an opportunity to raise any further health-related matters
21 you would like to raise.
22 Is this information we received from the Registry correct and can
23 we proceed with this initial appearance?
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You can proceed and I did
25 understand what you asked me.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Then I see that with you at this moment is counsel.
2 Could counsel introduce himself.
3 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. I'm
4 Aleksandar Aleksic, attorney-at-law, and I am duty counsel. And this
5 morning I represent the Defence of General Ratko Mladic. Thank you.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Aleksic. I -- the Chamber was, as
7 you will be aware of, was informed that the Deputy Registrar decided to
8 assign you, and you are an attorney of law of Serbia, as counsel to
9 represent the accused at this initial appearance and in such other
10 matters as may be necessary until a permanent counsel is assigned and
11 that your assignment is effective on from the 2nd of June of this year.
12 I see that you are nodding in the affirmative.
13 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Precisely, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Aleksic.
15 Could I then have the appearances for the Prosecution.
16 MR. BRAMMERTZ: Good morning, Your Honour. Serge Brammertz for
17 the Prosecution. With me are Dermot Groome and Peter McCloskey, senior
18 trial attorneys; and Janet Stewart, case manager.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Brammertz.
20 Mr. Mladic, just for your information, you know now that counsel
21 is sitting next to you, that the Prosecution is at the opposite side of
22 this courtroom. You may wonder who the others are. The Registrar is
23 here in front of us. Usually during the court hearings there will be a
24 court officer representing the Registry. Further, we have an usher and
25 we have a Legal Officer who assists the Chamber, they're all seated just
1 in front of us. Further, we have a court reporter, which prepares the
2 transcript, she's seated over there. And we are further assisted by
3 interpreters and technicians, who are in the booths, both to my right and
4 to my left.
5 Mr. Mladic, the Acting President assigned your case to
6 Trial Chamber I on the 27th of May, 2011, and listed the Judges it would
7 be composed of. The Judges have -- the Judges who were assigned have
8 unanimously decided that I, being the most senior in office in this
9 Tribunal, would preside over the case. It will take some time before a
10 trial itself will start and changes in the composition of a Chamber
11 before the trial starts are not unheard of. So there's no guarantee that
12 finally we will be the Bench which will hear your case.
13 The initial appearance of today is governed by Rule 62 of the
14 Rules of Procedure and Evidence. The purpose of this initial appearance
15 is to inform you of the charges that were brought against you and ask
16 you, ask for your entry of a plea, as well as to verify that your right
17 to counsel is respected.
18 Now, before I will set out the allegations against you, I inform
19 you now already that you have a fundamental right to remain silent in
20 these proceedings.
21 I will start with a brief history, a brief procedural history,
22 with regards to the indictment in your case. You were initially indicted
23 on the 24th of July, 1995. In 1996, on the 16th of July, a review of the
24 indictment under Rule 61 of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence took
25 place. And if you would like to know what exactly a Rule 61 proceedings
1 is, please consult counsel and he'll explain it to you.
2 The indictment against you was amended several times and the
3 now-operative indictment was filed on the 1st of June of this year. You
4 were arrested on the 26th of May, 2011, in Serbia and you were
5 subsequently transferred to the seat of the Tribunal on the 31st of May.
6 Before we continue, I would first like to have Articles 20 and 21
7 of the Statute of this Tribunal read to you, articles that address the
8 commencement and the conduct of trial proceedings and the rights of an
10 Could the representative of the Registrar please read Articles 20
11 and 21 of the Statute.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Article 20:
13 "Commencement and conduct of trial proceedings.
14 "The Trial Chamber shall ensure that a trial is fair and
15 expeditious and that proceedings are conducted in accordance with the
16 Rules of Procedure and Evidence, with full respect for the rights of the
17 accused and due regard for the protection of victims and witnesses.
18 "A person against whom an indictment has been confirmed shall,
19 pursuant to an order or arrest warrant of the International Tribunal, be
20 taken into custody, immediately informed of the charges against him and
21 transferred to the International Tribunal.
22 "The Trial Chamber shall read the indictment, satisfy itself that
23 the rights of the accused are respected, confirm that the accused
24 understands the indictment, and instruct the accused to enter a plea.
25 The Trial Chamber shall then set the date for trial.
1 "The hearings shall be public unless the Trial Chamber decides to
2 close the proceedings in accordance with its Rules of Procedure and
4 Article 21: Rights of the accused.
5 "All persons shall be equal before the International Tribunal.
6 "In the determination of charges against him, the accused shall
7 be entitled to a fair and public hearing, subject to Article 22 of the
9 "The accused shall be presumed innocent until proved guilty
10 according to the provisions of the present Statute.
11 "In the determination of any charge against the accused pursuant
12 to the present Statute, the accused shall be entitled to the following
13 minimum guarantees, in full equality:
14 "To be informed promptly and in detail in a language which he
15 understands of the nature and cause of the charge against him.
16 "To have adequate time and facilities for the preparation of his
17 defence and to communicate with counsel of his choice.
18 "To be tried without undue delay.
19 "To be tried in his presence, and to defend himself in person or
20 through legal assistance of his own choosing; to be informed, if he does
21 not have legal assistance, of this right; and to have legal assistance
22 assigned to him, in any case where the interests of justice so require,
23 and without payment by him in any such case if he does not have
24 sufficient means to pay for it.
25 "To examine, or have examined, the witnesses against him and to
1 obtain the attendance and examination of witnesses on his behalf under
2 the same conditions as witnesses against him.
3 "To have the free assistance of an interpreter if he cannot
4 understand or speak the language used in the International Tribunal.
5 "Not to be compelled to testify against himself or to confess
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
8 Mr. Mladic, do you understand these rights which were just read
9 out to you?
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judge, I am a gravely ill man. I
11 heard what the young lady said. I need a bit more time to think about
12 all the things she read out, so please bear with me, be patient. I was
13 taken to the prison infirmary and three binders of documents were brought
14 to me. I haven't read any of that and I haven't signed anything because
15 I could not -- I could not -- I was in such a poor state actually. I
16 have this stress and now I did understand what the girl read out --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, let me stop you --
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- roughly --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you there, Mr. Mladic. The rights you
20 are entitled to are read out by the Registry. I do understand that you
21 want to further think about these rights, and if I understand you
22 well - not having read everything yet, the materials you have received
23 until now - that you want to consider your position, if there's any need
24 to be further informed about what these rights exactly mean, I take it
25 that counsel will assist you.
1 Mr. Aleksic, you would be willing to further explain and to
2 answer any questions Mr. Mladic may have in relation to the rights that
3 were just read to him?
4 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Absolutely, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
6 Then I am moving to the next subject. First, and it's a
7 relatively simple question, Mr. Mladic, have you received a copy of the
8 indictment in your own language?
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] As for those three binders that
10 were brought to my cell, is that indictment, that document, in one of
11 those three binders? I haven't read that.
12 JUDGE ORIE: I --
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If it's there --
14 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that you have received more
15 information. The indictment is a document consisting of 37 pages in
16 which the charges against you are set out. It may be that you have
17 briefly discussed that already with Mr. Aleksic because it is among what
18 you find in the three binders. It is certainly, if not the most, a very
19 important document.
20 Mr. Mladic, have you gone through that indictment, that is, that
21 37-page document in which 11 counts are stated, counts of what you are
22 charged with?
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I had a look the binders and I did
24 not read what was written there. If that was in those binders, then that
25 indictment is there, but I don't know what is written there and I haven't
1 read that. I need at least two months to read those two -- those three
2 binders, if not more.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Let me first get some information.
4 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic, I'm informed that you received the
6 indictment as a separate document on Wednesday and that you only received
7 the three binders at a later stage. So I'm talking exclusively about the
8 one document that was given to you on Wednesday. Did you receive that
9 document and was that in your own language?
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Aleksic met me at this prison
11 hospital and he showed this to me on two sheets of paper, this
12 indictment. If that is it, then I have taken that into account, but I
13 did not want to sign anything because I want to have a proper Defence. I
14 don't want just one man. I don't know the man. He's from Serbia --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic, we are not talking yet about what
16 position to take. I'm not talking about signing anything. The first
17 thing I want to establish is whether you received it and whether you
18 understood it.
19 And, Mr. Aleksic, have you gone with Mr. Mladic through the
21 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Absolutely, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Did you at any moment gain the impression that he
23 did not understand what the indictment was about?
24 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Not at a single moment did I have
25 that impression, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic, we'll proceed on the basis -- and you'll
2 have further time to carefully study the indictment if you need that
3 time, we'll come to that at a later stage.
4 Mr. Mladic, you have the right to have that indictment to be read
5 to you now today in court, the full 37 pages. But you also may waive
6 that right so that we will not read the whole of the indictment. Do you
7 want to exercise the right to have it read in full?
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do not want to have a single
9 letter or sentence of that indictment read out to me.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Well, that's another matter. I do understand that
11 even in stronger words you waive your right the indictment to be read out
12 to you. Nevertheless, this is put on the record, that you waive this
13 right. But I will nevertheless summarise the indictment briefly, both
14 for you but also to the benefit of the public. We'll not read it in its
15 entirety but we will read a summary. And I would like to emphasise that
16 it is just a brief summary of the indictment intended to give a rough
17 impression of the charges against the accused. Now, the authoritative
18 text is found exclusively in the Prosecution's operative indictment,
19 which was filed on the 1st of June of this year.
20 According to the indictment you, Ratko Mladic, are charged with
21 genocide, crimes against humanity, and violations of the laws and customs
22 of war under several modes of liability, including joint criminal
24 The indictment alleges three separate joint criminal enterprises
25 and one overarching joint criminal enterprise. According to the
1 indictment, Radovan Karadzic and Ratko Mladic were key members of the
2 overarching joint criminal enterprise which lasted from at least
3 October 1991 until the 30th of November, 1995. The objective was the
4 permanent removal of Bosnian Muslims and Bosnian Croats from
5 Bosnian Serb-claimed territory in Bosnia and Herzegovina through crimes
6 charged in the indictment.
7 Ratko Mladic participated in the overarching joint criminal
8 enterprise, including by the commission of: Genocide, persecution,
9 extermination, murder, deportation, and forcible transfer. He alleged
10 acted in concert with other members of this criminal enterprise, and they
11 include Radovan Karadzic, Momcilo Krajisnik, Slobodan Milosevic,
12 Biljana Plavsic, Nikola Koljevic, Mico Stanisic, Momcilo Mandic,
13 Jovica Stanisic, Franko Simatovic, Zeljko Raznatovic, also known as
14 Arkan, and Vojislav Seselj.
15 According to the indictment, Ratko Mladic significantly
16 contributed to the overarching joint criminal enterprise, including by
17 commanding and controlling the Bosnian Serb Army and failing to take
18 adequate measures to protect Bosnian Muslim and Bosnian Croat prisoners
19 of war and detainees.
20 Ratko Mladic and Radovan Karadzic also participated in three
21 additional joint criminal enterprises. The objective of the first of
22 these was to spread terror among the civilian population of Sarajevo
23 through a campaign of sniping and shelling. This joint criminal
24 enterprise existed between April 1992 and November 1995. The criminal
25 enterprise involved the commission of the crimes of terror, unlawful
1 attack on civilians, and murder. In this criminal enterprise, Mladic
2 acted in concert with, among others, Stanislav Galic and
3 Dragomir Milosevic.
4 The objective of the second additional joint criminal enterprise
5 was to eliminate the Bosnian Muslims in Srebrenica. From around the
6 11th of July, 1995, until the 1st of November, 1995, Ratko Mladic
7 participated in this joint criminal enterprise by killing the men and
8 boys and forcibly removing the women, young children, and some elderly
9 men from Srebrenica. This objective amounted to or included the crimes
10 of genocide, persecution, extermination, murder, deportation, and
11 forcible transfer. Participants of the joint criminal enterprise
12 included members of a Serbian MUP unit called the Skorpions.
13 The objective of the third additional joint criminal enterprise
14 was to take United Nations personnel as hostages. During May and
15 June 1995, Ratko Mladic participated in this joint criminal enterprise in
16 order to compel NATO to abstain from conducting air-strikes against
17 Bosnian Serb military targets.
18 According to the indictment, in addition to his liability through
19 his participation in the mentioned joint criminal enterprises,
20 Ratko Mladic is individually criminally responsible for planning,
21 instigating, ordering, and aiding and abetting the crimes charged in the
23 According to the indictment, Ratko Mladic is also criminally
24 responsible as a superior. Between the 12th of May, 1992, and the
25 8th of November, 1996, Ratko Mladic was the most senior officer of the
1 Bosnian Serb Army. In this capacity, he had effective control over
2 members of this army. Ratko Mladic knew or had reason to know that
3 crimes were about to be committed or had been committed by it members.
4 He failed to take the necessary and reasonable measures to prevent the
5 commission of such crimes or to punish the perpetrators thereof.
6 I will now go through the charges.
7 Count 1: Genocide.
8 The indictment alleges that between the 31st of March, 1992, and
9 the 31st of December, 1992, Bosnian Serb political and governmental
10 organs and Serb forces carried out a campaign of persecutions against
11 Bosnian Muslims and Bosnian Croats in certain municipalities in Bosnia
12 and Herzegovina. This campaign included conduct that manifested an
13 intent to destroy in part the national, ethnical, or religious groups of
14 Bosnian Muslims and Bosnian Croats as such. The conduct consisted of
15 killings of Bosnian Muslims and Bosnian Croats, causing them serious
16 bodily or mental harm, including by torture and rape; and detaining them
17 under conditions of life calculated to bring about their physical
18 destruction. The most extreme manifestations of the intent to partially
19 destroy these groups took place in the municipalities of Bratunac, Foca,
20 Kljuc, Kotor Varos, Prijedor, Sanski Most, Vlasenica, and Zvornik.
21 Count 2 also deals with genocide.
22 The indictment alleges that around the 6th of July, 1995, Bosnian
23 Serb forces attacked the Srebrenica enclave, the take-over of which was
24 planned already in the preceding month. Within days of the attack,
25 Ratko Mladic and others formed the objective to eliminate the
1 Bosnian Muslims in Srebrenica by killing the men and boys and forcibly
2 removing the women, young children, and some elderly men. By the
3 11th of July, 1995, Ratko Mladic and others began to implement this
5 Between the 11th and the 13th of July, 1995, members of the
6 Bosnian Serb Army and the Ministry of the Interior and a Serbian unit
7 called the Skorpions terrorised and abused the Bosnian Muslims in
8 Potocari. On the 12th of July, 1995, these forces began to separate the
9 men and boys of Srebrenica from the women and the young children. Over
10 1.000 men and boys were separated and detained in Potocari, while the
11 women, young children, and some elderly men were forced out of the
12 enclave. During and after the forcible transfer operation,
13 Bosnian Muslim men and boys were executed through, as it is said in the
14 indictment, "opportunistic" killings. In addition to those detained in
15 Potocari, thousands of men and boys who had attempted to flee the enclave
16 were captured by, or surrendered to, the aforementioned Serb forces. On
17 the 13th of July, 1995, the forces began the organised executions of the
18 men and boys who had been separated and detained and those who had
19 surrendered or had been captured. The victims of the executions were
20 buried and some were exhumed and re-buried in an effort to conceal the
22 According to the indictment, between the 11th of July, 1995, and
23 the 1st of November, 1995, over 7.000 Bosnian Muslim men and boys of
24 Srebrenica were killed through both organised and opportunistic
25 executions. In addition, serious bodily or mental harm was caused to
1 thousands of female and male Muslims of Srebrenica.
2 Count 3: Persecutions as a Crime Against Humanity.
3 The indictment charges persecutions in the following
4 23 municipalities: Banja Luka, Bijeljina, Bosanska Krupa, Bosanski Novi,
5 Bratunac, Brcko, Foca, Hadzici, Ilidza, Kalinovik, Kljuc, Kotor Varos,
6 Novi Grad, Novo Sarajevo, Pale, Prijedor, Rogatica, Sanski Most, Sokolac,
7 Trnovo, Vlasenica, Vogosca, and Zvornik.
8 Beginning in March 1992, Serb forces and Bosnian Serb political
9 and governmental organs attacked and took control of towns and villages
10 in these municipalities. Most of the take-overs were carried out during
11 1992, but they continued thereafter. The enclave of Srebrenica was taken
12 over in July 1995.
13 During and after these take-overs and until the 30th of November,
14 1995, Serb forces and Bosnian Serb political and governmental organs
15 carried out persecutory acts against Bosnian Muslims and Bosnian Croats.
16 These acts included the imposition of restrictive and discriminatory
17 measures, arbitrary searches, arbitrary arrest, and unlawful detention,
18 forced labour, harassment, torture, rape and other acts of sexual
19 violence, killing, destruction of houses, cultural monuments, and sacred
20 sites; and plunder of property. These acts caused Bosnian Muslims and
21 Bosnian Croats to flee the municipalities in fear. Others were
22 physically driven out.
23 Counts 4, 5, and 6: Extermination and Murder as Crimes Against
24 Humanity and Violations of the Laws or Customs of War.
25 According to the indictment, members of the Serb forces and
1 Bosnian Serb political and governmental organs committed acts of
2 extermination and murder in the aforementioned 23 municipalities in
3 Bosnia and Herzegovina between the 12th of May, 1992, and the
4 30th of November, 1995.
5 The indictment further alleges that members of the Yugoslav Army,
6 of the Bosnian Serb Army, and of other Serb forces committed acts of
7 murder as part of the objective to spread terror among the civilian
8 population of Sarajevo through a campaign of sniping and shelling between
9 the 12th of May, 1992, and November 1995.
10 Further, according to the indictment, members of the Bosnian Serb
11 Army and the Ministry of Interior and the Serbian unit called the
12 Skorpions committed acts of extermination and murder against
13 Bosnian Muslims in Srebrenica between the 11th of July, 1995, and the
14 1st of November, 1995.
15 Counts 7 and 8: Deportation and Inhumane Acts as Crimes Against
17 The indictment alleges that between March 1992 and the
18 30th of November, 1995, Serb forces and Bosnian Serb political and
19 governmental organs forcibly displaced Bosnian Muslims and Bosnian Croats
20 from areas in the aforementioned 23 municipalities and in Srebrenica.
21 Counts 9 and 10: Terror and Unlawful Attacks as Violations of
22 the Laws or Customs of War.
23 The indictment alleges that armed hostilities broke out in
24 Sarajevo around the time Bosnia and Herzegovina was internationally
25 recognised as an independent state on the 6th of April, 1992. Around the
1 same time, the city was subjected to blockade, bombardment, and
2 sniper attacks.
3 Between April 1992 and November 1995, members of the joint
4 criminal enterprise relating to Sarajevo implemented a military strategy
5 that used sniping and shelling to kill, maim, wound, and terrorise the
6 civilian inhabitants of Sarajevo. This resulted in the injury and death
7 of thousands of civilians, including children and the elderly. The
8 constant threat of death and injury caused trauma and psychological
9 damage to the inhabitants of Sarajevo.
10 Count 11: Taking of Hostages as a Violation of the Laws or
11 Customs of War.
12 The indictment alleges that in response to shelling attacks on
13 Sarajevo and other areas of Bosnia and Herzegovina by Bosnian Serb
14 forces, NATO forces carried out air-strikes against military targets on
15 the 25th and the 26th of May, 1995. Between approximately the
16 26th of May, 1995, and the 19th of June, 1995, Bosnian Serb forces
17 detained over 200 UN peacekeepers and military observers in various
18 locations, including Pale, Sarajevo, Banja Luka, and Gorazde, and held
19 them at various locations in Republika Srpska, in order to render the
20 locations immune from NATO air-strikes and to prevent air-strikes from
21 continuing. Threats were issued to NATO and UN commanders, that further
22 NATO attacks on Bosnian Serb military targets would result in the injury,
23 death, or continued detention of the detainees. Some of the detainees
24 were mistreated during their captivity. During and after negotiations
25 with Serbian and Bosnian Serb leaders, including Ratko Mladic, the
1 detainees were released between the 3rd and the 19th of June, 1995.
2 This concludes the summary of the indictment.
3 Mr. Mladic, pursuant to Rule 62(A)(iii) of the Rules of Procedure
4 and Evidence, you will be called upon to enter a plea of guilty or not
5 guilty on each count of the indictment within 30 days of this initial
6 appearance. You may, however, request to enter such pleas already today.
7 Mr. Mladic, are you prepared and do you wish to enter pleas
8 today, or would you rather postpone your pleas and enter them within the
9 30 days which the Rules of Procedure and Evidence provides for?
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Orie, you're a bit older than I
11 am. I would like to receive what you've read out just now, these
12 obnoxious charges levelled against me, I want to read this properly, to
13 give it some proper thought together with my lawyers because I need more
14 than a month for these monstrous words, the ones that I've never heard
15 before, those that were included in this indictment. I have never heard
16 of any such thing nor can I understand that it is that way --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic, the wording of the indictment is chosen
18 by the Prosecution. An indictment is the basis on which a trial
19 proceeds. I do understand that you want to take more time to carefully
20 read it, and therefore that you will not enter a plea today.
21 You said you would need more than 30 days. The Rules provide for
22 30 days. This does not mean that you have to prepare the whole of your
23 Defence within that 30 days. There will certainly be more time for that,
24 but the Chamber will stick, as matters stand now - no good cause being
25 shown for deviating from it - to the 30 days which the Rules grant. So,
1 therefore, since you did not and you are not going to enter a plea today,
2 I hereby schedule a further appearance on the 4th of July, 2011, at
3 10.00 in the morning in this courtroom, 1.
4 Mr. Mladic, if you want to consult with counsel you have an
5 opportunity to do so, but rather do it in such a way that not everyone
6 can follow what you're discussing with counsel. If you want to
7 consult -- I see that Mr. Aleksic says that there's no need for further
8 consultation at this moment.
9 Mr. Mladic, in the meantime, you will remain in custody at the
10 United Nations Detention Unit, and your counsel, Mr. Aleksic, can inform
11 you about the Rules governing pre-trial detention.
12 There is, however -- yes.
13 [Defence counsel and accused confer]
14 JUDGE ORIE: If you want to speak to counsel, please do it in
15 such a way that not everyone can follow it because you might want to
16 consult him in confidence. If you want to speak to us, you should switch
17 on your microphone so that whatever you say will be interpreted and will
18 then be -- we can hear it.
19 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may we take a short
20 break, please?
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you want to consult -- is there any -- let me
22 just -- one second.
23 [Pre-Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Could you give us an indication as to how much time
25 you would need? Is it a matter or minutes or ...?
1 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Ten minutes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll briefly adjourn and we'll resume in not
3 more than ten minutes from now. We'll remain stand-by. If you don't
4 need any further time, I would like to be informed so that we can
5 re-start immediately. We have a short break.
6 --- Break taken at 10.56 a.m.
7 --- On resuming at 11.06 a.m.
8 JUDGE ORIE: We'll resume the initial appearance.
9 In order to inform you about your rights when being questioned, I
10 would like the Registrar to read out Rule 63 of the Rules of Procedure
11 and Evidence dealing with questioning of an accused.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 "Questioning of Accused:
14 "Questioning by the Prosecutor of an accused, including after the
15 initial appearance, shall not proceed without the presence of counsel
16 unless the accused has voluntarily and expressly agreed to proceed
17 without counsel present. If the accused subsequently expresses a desire
18 to have counsel, questioning shall thereupon cease, and shall only resume
19 when the accused's counsel is present.
20 "The questioning, including any waiver of the right to counsel,
21 shall be audio-recorded or video-recorded in accordance with the
22 procedure provided for in Rule 43. The Prosecutor shall at the beginning
23 of the questioning caution the accused in accordance with
24 Rule 42(A)(iii)."
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
1 I would now like to address the Prosecution, and I would like to
2 remind you that, pursuant to Rule 66(A)(i) of the Rules of Procedure and
3 Evidence, that within 30 days of the initial appearance of the accused
4 that you shall make available to the Defence in a language which the
5 accused understands all the supporting material which accompanied the
6 indictment when confirmation was sought. Material supporting the review
7 of the indictment pursuant to Rule 61, which was filed on the
8 16th of July, 1996, should be included.
9 I now address the Defence. I'd like to remind you, Mr. Aleksic,
10 and inform you, Mr. Mladic, that pursuant to Rule 72(A) of the Rules of
11 Procedure and Evidence that you will have a 30-day period for filing any
12 preliminary motions once you have received the -- all the supporting
13 material, that's the day when the time-limit starts. The preliminary
14 motions include motions which challenge the jurisdiction of the Tribunal
15 and allege the facts in the form of the indictment.
16 Mr. Mladic, you're advised to consult with counsel with regard to
17 these issues.
18 I will now give an opportunity to the parties to raise any
19 matter, Prosecution first. Is there any matter you would wish to raise
20 at this stage?
21 Mr. Groome.
22 MR. GROOME: No, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
24 Then is there any matter, Mr. Mladic, you would like to raise at
25 this stage? And I already inform you that if there would be any matter
1 relating to your health which you may wish to raise in private session,
2 then we'll move into private session. And let me just explain to you
3 what private session means. Private session means that the blinds are
4 still up although there will be no broadcast to the outside world.
5 However, those present in the public gallery will still see us but they
6 will not hear us. So whatever you say will not be heard in the public
8 Mr. Mladic, so two matters: First, whether you want to raise
9 anything for which you do not need private session; and then perhaps if
10 you wish for health matters to raise in private session, please let me
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would just like to say a few
13 words about the state of my health in private session.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Then we move into private session.
15 [Private session].
11 Pages 24-30 redacted. Private session.
21 [Open session]
22 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
24 We are at a point to conclude this initial appearance.
25 Mr. Mladic, is there any issue in relation to your arrest or to
1 your detention or any other matter which can appropriately be raised at
2 this moment?
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Since we're now in open session and
4 there are journalists from around the world present here today, I will
5 say a few things.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic --
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Those who found me treated me --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if you limit it to how you were treated, fine.
9 Whether they're journalists or not is not the relevant and important
10 matter at this moment.
11 Please proceed.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do not fear any journalists or
13 any people, any nation, or any ethnicity. I defended my people and my
14 country, not Ratko Mladic. Now I am defending myself, I'm defending
15 Ratko Mladic before you.
16 Mr. Orie, I was treated with fairness and dignity except that --
17 except for the procedure - and I have to say that that bothers me, it
18 really irritates me - and when I see the Balaclavas worn by those people,
19 I don't like that. And I'd rather be killed by a policeman here either
20 or in the United States or anywhere. If they were to kill me,
21 Ratko Mladic, so that it can be reported in the press, fine; but I can
22 tell you I defended my country. I am Ratko Mladic. I did not kill
23 Croats as Croats, and I'm not killing anyone either in Libya or in
24 Africa. I was just defending my country --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic, Mr. Mladic, please. We should not mix
1 up your defence, what you were charged that you may have done in the
2 past, and the way in which you are treated at this very moment. And
3 that's what I asked you about. If you have any complaints about your
4 treatment in detention, please consult with counsel. And, Counsel, of
5 course, you would refer Mr. Mladic to the regulations for the
6 establishment of a complaints procedure for detainees. I think
7 Mr. Mladic has already received a copy of the documentation in relation
8 to that.
9 Mr. Mladic, any other matter you would like to raise in the
10 context that is not your defence and what happened in the past, but the
11 present situation about your detention? Any other matter to be raised in
12 that respect?
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Orie, if you want the
14 proceedings to proceed as they should - and I don't know how long that's
15 going to be going on for, it's only known by the man up there - I just
16 have to say that I want to live to see that I am a free man. And such as
17 I am, I am defending my country and my people and not Ratko Mladic.
18 And as for procedure, I would appreciate it if you allowed me to
19 tell you what it is that irritates me. I don't want to be held and
20 helped to move or to walk as if I was a blind man. I can walk on my own,
21 and if I cannot, then I will ask to be helped. I don't want to be helped
22 if I -- unless I ask for it because I'm General Mladic and the whole
23 world knows who I am --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic, that request is now on the record.
25 Where you said that you're here to defend your country and not
1 Ratko Mladic, I would like to remind you that you are charged as an
2 individual before this Tribunal, and that therefore a defence should
3 focus on the charges brought against you as an accused.
4 No other matters to be raised?
5 Mr. Aleksic, no other matters?
6 Then we adjourn until the 4th of July, 2011, 10.00 in the morning
7 in Courtroom 1.
8 --- Whereupon the Initial Appearance adjourned at
9 11.40 a.m., to be reconvened on Monday, the 4th of
10 July, 2011, at 10.00 a.m.