1 Thursday, 8 December 2011
2 [Further Initial Appearance]
3 [Open session]
4 [The accused entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 4.04 p.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon.
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honour. This is
9 IT-09-92-PT, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 Mr. Mladic, would you be so kind to take off your cap. If you
12 take off your hat then it's easier to listen.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]
14 THE INTERPRETER: No microphone.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, could you ask Mr. Mladic to remain silent
16 for a second.
17 Mr. Lukic, if Mr. Mladic talks to you, if it's a confidential
18 communication between counsel and his client, then he should whisper
19 rather than to speak aloud. If he wants to address the Court, he can do
20 so through you, and then of course we need a microphone switched on,
21 otherwise we'll not hear what he's addressed.
22 I asked Mr. Mladic to take off his hat.
23 [Defence counsel and Accused confer]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.
25 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Is Mr. Mladic willing to take off his hat?
2 [Defence counsel and Accused confer]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. -- Mr. Lukic, could you -- Mr. Lukic, could you
4 tell Mr. Mladic that my patience is limited and that he's hereby invited
5 to take off his hat.
6 Thank you. Please be seated, Mr. Mladic.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic, if you want to speak to counsel, do it,
9 please, in such a way that not everyone is hearing it, because that is
10 considered to be confidential. Please be seated and then I'll start with
11 the appearances.
12 Appearances. Prosecution first.
13 MR. GROOME: Good afternoon, Your Honour. For the Prosecution,
14 Dermot Groome, Peter McCloskey, Roeland Bos, and Janet Stewart.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Groome.
16 For the Defence, Mr. Lukic.
17 MR. LUKIC: Branko Lukic and Milos Saljic for the Defence,
18 Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.
20 And we see that the -- Mr. Mladic, the accused, is present. I
21 see that Mr. Mladic is again, as he did before, seeking to communicate by
22 his body language and gestures with the public gallery. Now, we have a
23 public gallery because these are public proceedings, not to allow
24 Mr. Mladic to communicate in an uncontrolled way even without speaking
25 with the public gallery.
1 So therefore, Mr. Mladic, either you now refrain from eye
2 contact, gestures, et cetera, with the public gallery, because otherwise
3 we have to put a screen between you and the public gallery so that
4 everyone still can see you through the cameras but that you're not able
5 anymore to communicate in the way you did a minute ago, and you did
6 before, to use the public gallery for your own purposes.
7 Is that clear?
8 Today a Status Conference has been scheduled. Now, before this
9 Status Conference, the Chamber will hold a Further Appearance for the
10 accused to enter a plea to the new charge contained in the now operative
11 Third Amended Indictment. This Further Initial Appearance was originally
12 scheduled for the last Status Conference, of the 10th of November, but
13 due to Mr. Mladic's absence from court the Further Appearance was
15 The Chamber had considered rescheduling the future appearance for
16 the 24th of November of this year and inquired with the
17 United Nations Detention Unit as to whether Mr. Mladic's health had
18 improved enough for him to attend such a proceeding. On the
19 19th of November, the Chamber received a courtesy copy of the UNDU
20 reporting medical officer report, indicating that Mr. Mladic's current
21 health condition had improved to the point that he would be able to
22 attend court proceedings. This report was formally filed on the
23 22nd of November. However, after the Chamber was informed of scheduling
24 conflicts for the parties, the Chamber ultimately determined not to move
25 forward with the 24th of November date. And subsequently, the
1 Further Appearance was rescheduled for today's Status Conference.
2 On the 20th of October, 2011, the Prosecution filed the
3 Third Amended Indictment, adding a new incident, the Bisina incident, and
4 making technical corrections to the names of several locations and
5 persons listed in the indictment schedules. These technical corrections
6 consist mainly of adding diacritics and previously omitted letters in the
7 names of certain municipalities and persons. The Chamber has reviewed
8 these corrections and accepts that they make no substantive changes to
9 the indictment.
10 I now move on to the plea to the new charge in the
11 Third Amended Indictment.
12 On the 13th of October, the Chamber issued its decision on the
13 consolidated Prosecution motion to sever the indictment, conduct separate
14 trials, and to amend the indictment.
15 In its decision, the Chamber found that amending the
16 Second Amended Indictment to include the Bisina incident would result in
17 a new charge and ordered that a Further Appearance be held following the
18 filing of the Third Amended Indictment to enable the accused to enter a
19 plea on the new charge. As I stated already, the Third Amended
20 Indictment was filed on the 20th of October, 2011.
21 Schedule E, part 1 of the Third Amended Indictment titled
22 "Srebrenica Killings," "Organised Killings," now includes the following
23 incident, listed as Incident 12, and I quote:
24 "Location - Bisina: The killing of over thirty Bosnian Muslim
25 men, some of whom were previously detained in Susica prison, in Bisina in
1 Sekovici municipality. Date: 23rd of July, 1995."
2 The Bisina incident constitutes a new basis for conviction of the
3 accused under the Third Amended Indictment on the Counts 2, which deals
4 with genocide; Count 3, which deals with persecution as a crime against
5 humanity; Count 4, which deals with extermination as a crime against
6 humanity; Count 5, which deals with murder as a crime against humanity;
7 and Count 6, which deals with murder as a war crime.
8 Mr. Mladic, a not guilty plea was entered on your behalf to these
9 counts at the Further Appearance of the 4th of July, 2011. My question
10 to you is: Do you wish for that not guilty plea to extend to the new
11 Bisina charges as it applies to these counts, or do you wish to enter a
12 plea on each count in relation to the Bisina charges? So do you want to
13 extend your not guilty plea to the Bisina charges or do you want to enter
14 a specific plea on Counts 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 in relation to that Bisina
15 charge? What do you prefer?
16 [Defence counsel and Accused confer]
17 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, I --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.
19 MR. LUKIC: -- I offer my help, and I would -- Mr. Mladic just
20 informed me that he enters not guilty plea on these -- on Bisina charge
21 as well. It would -- he wants to have transcript in Serbian. I am
22 trying to explain him that it's not possible, but he says that he follows
23 you pretty hard only through audio because he thinks -- he says that he's
24 very slow so he -- and you talk fast. So it's hard for him to follow you
25 only verbally.
1 JUDGE ORIE: If at any moment Mr. Mladic would like me to slow
2 down, I'll be glad to do so. And perhaps I put it in rather simple terms
3 to him again.
4 Mr. Mladic, you are expected to enter a plea. The Bisina
5 incident is now part of Counts 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6. You have entered a not
6 guilty plea to those counts or, I should say, a not guilty plea has been
7 entered on your behalf to these counts. Do you now want to extend that
8 plea of not guilty also to the Bisina charge? If that is what you wish
9 to do, please tell me.
10 [Defence counsel and Accused confer]
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Sir, you said this slowly, and I'm
12 not clear what Bisina means as a term. Is that a mountain? Is that a
13 river? Is that a brook? Is that some kind of bridge? Is it a movable
14 feature such as a bus, truck, plane, helicopter? What is Bisina? You're
15 mentioning Sekovici; I know what Sekovici is. But I don't know what
16 Bisina is. Is that some kind of place or is it a village? What is it?
17 JUDGE ORIE: It is a location in Sekovici municipality,
18 where - and that's the charge brought against you - that over
19 30 Bosnian Muslim men were killed, men some of whom had previously been
20 detained in Susica prison. And it is charged to have happened on the
21 23rd of July, 1995.
22 [Defence counsel and Accused confer]
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you for this explanation.
24 I'm not guilty and I have nothing whatsoever to do with it, not with the
25 date, not with the place, not with Bisina.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Then it's hereby on the record that the not guilty
2 plea on Counts 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 extends to Incident 12 of Schedule E,
3 part 1, of the Third Amended Indictment, which refers to the killing of
4 over 30 Bosnian Muslim men in Bisina.
5 Therefore, your not guilty plea is hereby on the record.
6 In accordance with the procedures of Rule 50(C), the Defence has
7 30 days from the entering of these pleas, that is, of today, to file any
8 Rule 72 preliminary motions related to this new charge.
9 Mr. Lukic, could you already now indicate whether the Defence
10 intends to file such a motion?
11 MR. LUKIC: I have to see with my whole team and with the client,
12 but I do not envisage filing of a separate motion on this incident.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
14 MR. LUKIC: But I will probably inform the Court in the next five
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We are awaiting any further news about your
17 intentions in this respect.
18 Now, the Chamber will now have a recess of 30 minutes to allow
19 the audio/visual staff time to finish their preparations for the
20 Status Conference broadcast, and therefore we'll have a break and we'll
21 resume at five minutes to 5.00.
22 --- Whereupon the Further Initial Appearance
23 adjourned at 4.24 p.m.