1 Tuesday, 21 August 2012
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning to everybody in and around the
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
9 This is the case IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
11 Could we have the appearances for the day, please, starting with
12 the Prosecution.
13 MR. GROOME: Good morning, Your Honours. I'm Dermot Groome and
14 I'm accompanied by Edward Jeremy and Ms. Janet Stewart.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much Mr. Groome. And for the
17 MR. LUKIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Branko Lukic,
18 Miodrag Stojanovic, Milos Saljic, and Dan Ivetic for the Defence.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much, Mr. Lukic. Judge Orie is
20 indisposed today. May the record please show that for that reason the
21 Chamber is sitting pursuant to Rule 15 bis. Thank you so much.
22 Before we start with the witnesses for the day, there are a
23 number of procedural issues that the Chamber would like to raise.
24 First of all, as the request for support staff to question
25 witnesses and make submissions in Court. On the 26th of July, 2012,
1 through an informal communication the Defence requested a standing
2 authorisation for two of its members to question witnesses and make
3 submissions in Court. The Chamber initially deferred its decision on
4 this request and notified the Defence of this on the 2nd of August, 2012.
5 On the 7th of August, 2012, the Defence requested authorisation for
6 Mr. Dragan Ivetic to cross-examine four upcoming witnesses, two of whom
7 are scheduled for the first week of court. On 13th of August, 2012, the
8 Chamber granted the request in part allowing Mr. Ivetic to cross-examine
9 witnesses Doyle and Jordan. The second point was that the Prosecution's
10 submissions on adjudicated facts and agreed facts and agreed facts
11 reporting. On the 18th of July, 2012, the Prosecution suggested to refer
12 to adjudicated facts. This Chamber has taken judicial notice of when
13 choosing not to elicit certain evidence from witnesses in the lines on
14 the adjudicated facts. The Defence did not respond to this submission.
15 The Chamber appreciates this proposal from the Prosecution and supports
17 Also, on 18th of July, 2012, the Prosecution suggested a
18 procedure to inform the Chamber of agreements or stipulations between the
19 parties. The Defence did not oppose this procedure on the 20th July
20 2012. The Chamber welcomes the parties' efforts in relation to finding
21 agreement and focusing on disputed matters. In relation to the suggested
22 procedure for notifying the Chamber, the Chamber would prefer that any
23 agreements or stipulations are noted down by the parties and filed on the
24 record. In that way, such agreements or stipulations are traceable, much
25 easier than by searching the transcript for certain words. In that
1 respect, the Chamber also amends its previous instructions to file
2 bimonthly reports on agreed facts and Rule 65 ter (e)(i) admissions.
3 From now on, such reports should be filed whenever there are relevant
4 developments on any agreements between the parties.
5 Item 3. Guidance on tendering public redacted versions of
6 documents. On the 19th of July, 2012, the Prosecution tendered the
7 statement of Witness RM255 as a confidential document as well as a
8 redacted version as a public document. The Chamber mentioned that it
9 would further consider whether such public redacted versions should also
10 form part of the body of the evidence. The Chamber now provides its
12 In order to avoid duplication of the evidentiary record, the
13 Chamber considers that whenever possible public redacted versions of
14 confidential exhibits should be filed on the record. For 92 ter
15 statements this could be done already in an additional public annex to
16 the respective Rule 92 ter motion.
17 Number 4. Rule 65 ter exhibit lists, missing translations. On
18 the 20th of July, 2012, the Prosecution filed its third motion to amend
19 the Rule 65 ter exhibit list. The Defence responded, and the Chamber
20 also noticed that many of the proposed exhibits do not have an English
21 translation attached in e-court. The Chamber hereby instructs the
22 Prosecution to upload the missing English translations into e-court and
23 to notify the Chamber and the Defence once it has done so. The Chamber
24 further instructs the Prosecution to review the proffered documents so as
25 to ensure that there is no overlap with any of the adjudicated facts of
1 which the Chamber has taken judicial notice and to provide the Chamber
2 with an update on this when giving notification in relation to the
3 missing translations.
4 On the 10th of August, 2012, the Prosecution requested leave to
5 reply to the Defence's response. The Chamber hereby grants the
6 Prosecution's request and considers that attached reply as filed.
7 Item number 5. Prosecution Rule 92 bis motion concerning RM57.
8 On 30th of May, 2012, the Chamber staff requested the Prosecution by
9 means of informal communication to review the 92 bis motion in light of
10 adjudicated facts numbers 346, 353, 426, 447, 867, 877 to 879, 893 to
11 895, 929, 936, 946, 960, 965 to 966, 972, 974, 982 to 983, 986 to 990,
12 1002 to 1004, 1006, 1008 to 1020, 1115 and 1117.
13 The Prosecution was instructed to indicate through a formal
14 filing whether it pursues the motion and, if so, how it proposes to deal
15 with possible overlap between adjudicated facts and the Rule 92 bis
16 evidence should the Chamber decide to grant the motion. The Chamber
17 hereby places this informal communication on the record and seeks an
18 update from the Prosecution on the matter.
19 Are you ready to give that update, Mr. Groome?
20 MR. GROOME: No, Your Honour. I'd ask if I could do that after
21 the first break.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Of course, you can. Thank you so much.
23 Item 6. Harland MFI P3. During the testimony of
24 Witness Harland, document P3 was MFI'd. P3 is a Prosecution map binder
25 for this case. The Defence objected that the maps contained markings and
1 drawings introducing unproven facts. The Chamber recognises that the
2 markings in P3 are mainly illustrations of the Prosecution's case which
3 need to be proven by evidence. The Chamber is aware of this and will not
4 rely on these markings in making any findings. As a result, the map
5 binder will be treated mainly as a reference. With this explanation the
6 Chamber admits P3 into evidence.
7 Lastly, number 7, Schmitz's MFI's. 65 ter 19814 is a 75-paged
8 document, portions of which the Prosecution and the Defence used with
9 Witness Schmitz in court. On 17th July, 2012, the Chamber instructed the
10 parties to tender only the specific pages they sought to rely on from
11 within 65 ter 19814 for admission. I refer you to transcript pages 940,
12 958, 1013 to 1014.
13 On the 20th of July, 2012, Mr. Lukic indicated the Defence wanted
14 to raise a purely practical matter concerning 65 ter 19814 and would do
15 so in an informal communication, and that's at transcript 1281. The
16 Prosecution and the Defence sent e-mails on 23rd of July, 2012. The
17 Registrar filed an internal memorandum assigning exhibit numbers to pages
18 of 65 ter 19814 separately uploaded by the Prosecution and Defence
19 pursuant to the Chamber's instructions. P63 to P65 was filed by the
20 Prosecution; and D27 to D37 was filed by the Defence, and all of them
21 were filed marked for identification. As of the 14th of August, 2012,
22 P63 to P65 appear with B/C/S translations in e-court.
23 Mr. Groome, the Chamber would like to know whether, from the
24 Prosecution's point of view, these documents are now ready for admission?
25 MR. GROOME: Yes, they are, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: And you are tendering them accordingly?
2 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Any objections, Mr. Lukic?
4 MR. LUKIC: No objections, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Then P63 to P65 are therefore
6 formally admitted into evidence.
7 D27 to D37 do not yet have B/C/S translations.
8 Mr. Lukic, can we expect that the B/C/S translations would be
9 uploaded soon?
10 MR. LUKIC: The Defence has one problem since it cannot ask CLSS
11 for B/C/S translations, so only if you can accept draft translations from
12 the team members we could do that. Otherwise, we have to address the
13 Prosecution to help on this issue as well.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Any response, Mr. Groome, to that point?
15 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I would be cautious about adopting or
16 agreeing to a change of practice. I would -- I think the more sensible
17 thing at this stage, I would suggest, would be to make an inquiry with
18 CLSS about when they anticipate they will have the translations and then
19 see whether that presents --
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: As I understand Mr. Lukic, he says the Defence
21 cannot approach CLSS for B/C/S translations.
22 MR. GROOME: Could I have an opportunity to speak with Mr. Lukic
23 over the break and see if there is some accommodation.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. We will hear from you later.
25 That concludes the procedural issues.
1 May the witness please be brought in.
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, Ms. Stewart informs me it may be
4 possible that the Prosecution is already in possession of some
5 translations of the documents that Mr. Lukic is referring to. So when we
6 discuss this over the break it may be that we will be able to provide the
7 Defence with the translations.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Groome. We'll wait to
9 hear whether you do have them, indeed.
10 MR. GROOME: And, Your Honour, if I can make use of the time.
11 The next witness is Aernout van Lynden and he has informed me that he
12 would be assisted if he could have a hard copy of his statement before
13 him to refer to if he is asked questions about it. With the permission
14 of the Court, I have brought an unmarked copy of his statement here, and
15 if the Chamber approves this, I would ask that the usher show this to
16 Mr. Lukic and then it be provided to the witness.
17 MR. LUKIC: We don't have any objections on this area.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic.
19 May the usher please show the unmarked document to Mr. Lukic.
20 [The witness entered court]
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning, Mr. van Lynden.
22 THE WITNESS: Good morning.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: May you please make the declaration.
24 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
25 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
1 WITNESS: AERNOUT VAN LYNDEN
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. van Lynden, you may be
4 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. van Lynden, I am aware that this is not the
6 first time that you have come and testified before the Tribunal. You
7 must be aware with the procedures in our Court here.
8 THE WITNESS: I am, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
10 I hand you over to Mr. Groome.
11 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Examination by Mr. Groome:
13 Q. Good morning, Mr. van Lynden.
14 A. Good morning.
15 Q. Could I ask that we begin by having you state your name for the
17 A. My name is Aernout van Lynden. What do you want my full --
18 Q. That will suffice, thank you. Now, Mr. van Lynden, is it true
19 that you have previously provided written statements to the Office of the
20 Prosecutor and testified before this Tribunal in a number of other trials
21 in relation to your work as a journalist in Bosnia?
22 A. It's true.
23 Q. Among those written statements that I've just referred to, did
24 you provide a statement to the Office of the Prosecutor which you signed
25 on the 16th of March, 2010, before giving evidence in the Karadzic case?
1 A. This is also true.
2 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, could I ask that 65 ter 28338 be
3 brought to our screens. It is the statement to which I have just
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: May it please be brought up to the screen.
6 MR. GROOME:
7 Q. Mr. van Lynden, once the document is on the screen before you,
8 can I ask that you take a look at the first page, in particular, the
9 signature at the bottom of the page and indicate whether you recognise
10 that signature?
11 A. Yes. That's my signature.
12 Q. Can I ask that we go to the last page of the statement which is
13 e-court page 46.
14 And, again, Mr. van Lynden, I would ask you whether you recognise
15 the signature on this page.
16 A. I do. That's my signature.
17 Q. Now, since giving this statement or signing this statement, have
18 you had an opportunity to read and review it and the associated -- the
19 exhibits associated to it; namely, the video reports that you filed
20 during your time in Bosnia?
21 A. I have.
22 Q. Now, I note in paragraph 1 of your statement, it omits to mention
23 that you testified in the Mrksic and Martic cases. Did you, in fact,
24 testify in those two cases?
25 A. I did.
1 Q. Apart from that omission, is there any correction or addition you
2 wish to make to your statement?
3 A. Not at this time, no.
4 Q. And if I were to take the time today to ask you questions similar
5 to those that you were asked during the creation of this statement, would
6 you give the same answers in substance?
7 A. I would.
8 Q. Now that you have taken the solemn declaration, do affirm the
9 truthfulness and accuracy of this statement?
10 A. I do.
11 MR. GROOME: Your Honours, at this time the Prosecution tenders
12 Mr. van Lynden's statement, 65 ter 28338, pursuant to 92 ter.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Groome.
14 Mr. Lukic.
15 MR. LUKIC: No objection.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. 65 ter 28338 is admitted
17 into evidence. May it please be given an exhibit number.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Document 28338 receives number P66, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much, Madam Registrar.
20 Yes, Mr. Groome, you may proceed.
21 MR. GROOME: Your Honours, with your leave I will now read a
22 short summary of Mr. van Lynden's written evidence. Mr. van Lynden's
23 actual evidence, of course, is the statement itself and will be available
24 to the public.
25 Aernout van Lynden worked as a war correspondent for 23 years.
1 Before becoming a journalist, Mr. van Lynden was a reserve infantry
2 officer in the Dutch marine corps for two years. During such time he
3 commanded a Mortar Platoon.
4 In May 1992, Mr. van Lynden working as a television journalist
5 for British news channel Sky News first arrived in Bosnia and
6 Herzegovina. He spent the majority of his time in Sarajevo until
7 September 1992. After that time, Mr. van Lynden covered other parts of
8 Bosnia but continued to make regular trips to Sarajevo throughout 1993
9 and 1994.
10 In Sarajevo Mr. van Lynden stayed mainly at the former JNA
11 military hospital, also known as the State Hospital, and later the
12 City Hospital, a building located in central Sarajevo. From the top
13 floor of the hospital, he and his crew had an excellent vantage point
14 over the city. Mr. van Lynden observed the conditions in which the
15 population lived, including the severe lack of food, water, and
16 utilities. He observed the sniping and shelling campaign against the
17 city and the fear that this campaign created within that civilian
19 In September and October of 1992, Mr. van Lynden reported from
20 Pale to try and cover the war from the Serb side. Mr. van Lynden met
21 with Radovan Karadzic on a number of occasions during this time. He also
22 interviewed General Mladic in September of 1992.
23 This concludes the summary, Your Honour.
24 Your Honours, unique to this witness is the fact that many of the
25 associated exhibits are news reports depicting events in Sarajevo. It is
1 my intention to work with many of these during my examination of
2 Mr. van Lynden and ask some specific questions regarding them. I will
3 therefore, in observance of the Chamber's expressed preference, will
4 tender these associated exhibits once I have worked with them. At the
5 end of the examination, I will tender a remaining ten exhibits which I
6 will not specifically address during my brief examination here this
8 If that is acceptable to the Chamber, I will proceed with my
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Proceed, Mr. Groome.
11 MR. GROOME:
12 Q. Mr. van Lynden, I would like to begin by having you updated your
13 professional biographies. Paragraphs 3 and 5 of your statement summarise
14 your biography as of the time you signed your statement in March 2010.
15 Can I ask you to summarise your professional activities since
16 that time.
17 A. In March 2010, I was living in Rome. Due to the death of my
18 wife. I've had to move back to the Netherlands at the beginning of last
19 year, and I am now employed as a staff lecturer at Leiden university
20 college here in The Hague.
21 Q. And what courses do you lecture on?
22 A. I give three courses on journalism and three courses on war
24 Q. Now, Mr. van Lynden, throughout your statement you referred to
25 various places within Sarajevo. Having lived and worked in Sarajevo for
1 the period you did, were you generally familiar with the city, its
2 neighbourhoods and its greater environs in the period from 1992 to 1995?
3 A. Yes, although not an expert. I did not grow up in the city,
5 Q. Over the course of your testimony here this morning I will play
6 for the Court several news reports that you submitted to Sky News which
7 were publically broadcast. In preparation for giving evidence about
8 these reports were you asked to verify the accuracy of a Prosecution
9 exhibit which relates stills taken from some of your reports to the
10 locations in which they were made on a panoramic photograph of the
11 Sarajevo skyline?
12 A. Yes, I was asked.
13 MR. GROOME: Your Honours, could I ask that 65 ter 28339 be
14 brought to our screens. Your Honour, given that this is a panoramic
15 photograph and given the limitations of our -- the monitors we have
16 before us, I have taken the liberty of making hard copies of this
17 exhibit. I think it will be more efficient or will facilitate the
18 Chamber's understanding of the witness's evidence.
19 So with the Chamber's permission, I would ask that they be
20 distributed at this time.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: May they be distributed.
22 MR. GROOME: Could I ask that the witness also be given a copy.
23 Q. Mr. van Lynden, we will provide you with a hard copy as well but
24 we can now see the electronic on the screen before us.
25 Can I ask you to tell us whether you recognise this exhibit and,
1 if so, what you recognise it to be?
2 A. A photograph of Sarajevo taken from the south of the city towards
3 the north and then there are a number of clips from -- or stills from
4 stories that I did in 1992 in Sarajevo.
5 Q. Now an arrow points from each of these stills to a location
6 within Sarajevo. Do these arrows accurately point to the approximate
7 location of where these stories were filmed?
8 A. Well, the stories were filmed from -- largely from the former
9 military hospital. That's the white building slightly to the right of
10 the centre. So some of the other shots are -- for instance, the top shot
11 of the Unis towers burning I am standing on the balcony of the hospital
12 and the Unis towers are behind me.
13 The shot on the right hand at the top that was taken at -- not at
14 the military hospital but on that corner. The -- on the left-hand side
15 at the bottom of the apartment block, again, the cameraman and I were in
16 front of that building. All the other five stills that you have put
17 by -- were taken all -- these are footage shot at the military hospital.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I just for my own edification ask,
19 Mr. van Lynden, you're saying at page 14, line 2: The shot object the
20 right hand at the top that was not taken -- not at the military hospital
21 but on that corner.
22 On which corner?
23 THE WITNESS: The corner is in the centre of town not far from
24 the Bosnian Presidency. It's not very far from the hospital --
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you able to give some permanent feature there
1 to identify that place?
2 THE WITNESS: It was an extremely dangerous place because it was
3 open to direct sniper fire, and later in the war the Bosnians erected
4 with containers a sort of -- build a kind of wall for civilians to be
5 able to pass by it.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I go back to my question: Is there a
7 permanent feature from where you took this photograph that you can give
8 to describe the position at which you were when you took the photograph?
9 THE WITNESS: A feature?
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah. A building or something like that.
11 THE WITNESS: Well, clearly we had our backs to the building so
12 that we were not in the direct line of fire and the people you see
13 running were in the direct line of fire there.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Does the arrow pointing to the right-hand side of
15 the main picture of the -- indicate the position where you were at?
16 THE WITNESS: That's obviously very rough, given the --
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sure.
18 THE WITNESS: If you give me a map of Sarajevo I think that I
19 will be able to say what the location was.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: But the purpose of that arrow is to give a general
21 direction of where you were.
22 THE WITNESS: Yes.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
24 MR. GROOME:
25 Q. Mr. van Lynden, when we actually look at the clips when the
1 Chamber looks at the clips, will it be apparent to them the buildings
2 that are in the areas of the clips?
3 A. It should be, yes.
4 Q. Now, you referred to the military hospital. Is that -- a white
5 building. Is that the building there is a red square around?
6 A. It is.
7 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, at this time the Prosecution would
8 tender 65 ter 28339 into evidence.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
10 MR. LUKIC: We never object to maps, Your Honours, but we would
11 object to this kind of presentation because we still don't know what --
12 what each of these photographs are. Maybe at the end of this gentleman's
13 testimony we could say more.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, I thought Mr. van Lynden explained what
15 those various pictures are. There's the parliament, the military
16 hospital, railway yard, apartment blocks, you know, and ...
17 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, perhaps it will assist Mr. Lukic, at
18 the bottom of each of the stills is a 65 ter number. That's the 65 ter
19 number of the clip for which the still was taken.
20 MR. LUKIC: I cannot check now, of course.
21 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I did not object or I will not
22 protest -- or reserving a decision on this until the conclusion of the
23 witness's evidence. Perhaps Mr. Lukic will be in a better position then.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Will it then be marked for identification,
25 Madam Registrar, and be given an number.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Document 28339 will receive number P67, MFI'd.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
3 Yes, Mr. Groome.
4 MR. GROOME: Your Honours, could I now ask that the Court Officer
5 bring to our screens 65 ter -- I'm sorry, P3. This is the map book for
6 Sarajevo. And could I ask that we go directly to e-court page 63. This
7 is a military map of the Sarajevo area.
8 Q. Mr. van Lynden, because of the size of this exhibit, it may take
9 a few moments to bring it to our screens.
10 But in paragraphs 76 to 90 of your statement you refer to an
11 interview you conducted with General Mladic in September of 1992.
12 In paragraph 78 of your statement, you refer to a map on which
13 the position marked KAG-1 appeared to you to be the approximate location
14 where you conducted this interview of Mr. Mladic.
15 I can see that we can now see a map on the screen. Is this a
16 portion of the map in which you identified this location?
17 A. Yes.
18 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, could I ask for the assistance of the
19 usher. I'm going to ask Mr. van Lynden to mark that location as well as
20 another relevant location on this map. And I believe the Prosecution has
21 been using blue for -- I'm sorry, red, for the marks that we have been
22 asking the witnesses to make.
23 Q. Mr. van Lynden, could I ask you to circle the approximate
24 location of where you interviewed Mr. Mladic in September of 1992?
25 A. [Marks]
1 Q. Can I ask you to simply put RM next to that circle to indicate
3 A. [Marks]
4 Q. Now, without making any marks -- other marks for the moment, are
5 you able to see the down-town Sarajevo area on this map?
6 A. I am.
7 Q. Can I ask you to circle -- or which parts of the down-town --
8 which parts of Sarajevo can you see on the map?
9 A. All of Sarajevo.
10 Q. Can you see the old town of Sarajevo?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Can I ask you to circle the old town of Sarajevo on this map.
13 A. [Marks]
14 Q. And can I ask you to just right "old town" underneath to indicate
16 A. [Marks]
17 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, at this time I would ask that this
18 graphic be tendered -- I would tender this graphic into evidence. It is
19 from P3 and it is marked by the witness.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
21 please be given an exhibit number.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P3, as marked by the witness, will
23 receive number P68, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
25 MR. GROOME: I am finished with that. Thank you, Mr. Usher.
1 Can I now ask that --
2 Q. While this exhibit is being processed, Mr. van Lynden, in
3 paragraphs 31 to 35 of your statement, you say that in the first few days
4 of your -- after your arrival in Sarajevo, you decided to base yourself
5 at the State Hospital; is that correct?
6 A. It is.
7 Q. In those paragraphs you describe the proximity of the building to
8 the confrontation lines as well as the views of the city that you had
9 from my -- from the building.
10 My question is whether you considered the views from the hospital
11 generally expansive and unobstructed?
12 A. They were. From the -- if we are looking direct from the front
13 of the building we could see the actual confrontation lines. The
14 parliament and behind that you can see the river but that's where the
15 Miljacka river ran and then Grbavica, the area of town held by the
16 Bosnian Serbs. On the -- there was a small balcony on the left and there
17 we could film the old part of Sarajevo and a balcony on the right which
18 gave us a view towards the whole of new Sarajevo, as it was called,
19 Novo Sarajevo. And it was unobstructed. We had a very, very, clear view
20 which is why we chose it to -- as a place really to spend our nights
21 because we could film what was happening in the city if the city came
22 under attack.
23 Q. And was the view generally unobstructed in all directions?
24 A. Generally. The danger was at the front of the building that we
25 knew that we were therefore visible, possibly visible, to those on the
1 southern hills of Sarajevo who were actually shooting at the city. So
2 those were very dangerous positions. Most of the windows at the front of
3 the building had been broken because the hospital itself had come under
4 fairly sustained fire since the fighting in Sarajevo began.
5 MR. GROOME: Could I ask that we now have 65 ter 10467 on the
6 screen before us.
7 Q. Mr. van Lynden, I'd ask you to now take a look at the photograph
8 which should be on the screen before you and ask you do you recognise
9 what is depicted in this photograph?
10 A. Yes. This is the part of the former military hospital in which
11 we stayed on the top floor, Your Honours. The hospital is bigger than
12 that. There are other buildings as well. As you can see in the
13 photograph, the building has been fairly -- been hit fairly regularly and
14 fairly badly. Other parts of the building -- of the hospital buildings
15 were also struck by artillery fire and by -- generally what we would
16 consider heavy machine-gun fire.
17 Q. Does this photograph fairly and accurately depict the
18 State Hospital and its condition as you recall it from your time in
20 A. Yes. The situation actually got worse, because according to me
21 this is a photograph from 1992 and the hospital was hit after that date.
22 Q. So your last member of this hospital is that it had sustained
23 additional damage to what we can see in this photograph?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. The particular side of the building that we are looking at in
1 this photograph, are you able to tell us in which direction it is facing?
2 What is the compass point that it is facing?
3 A. The facade of the building that we are seeing is facing south.
4 Q. So someone looking out one of the windows that we can see here
5 would be looking in a southerly direction?
6 A. Precisely.
7 Q. In paragraph 35 of your written evidence, you state that the
8 State Hospital was targeted by gun-fire and on one occasion even a tank
9 shell. Based on your experience while being stationed there, or using
10 this facility, how often was the State Hospital targeted?
11 A. Most of the damage had been done prior to my arrival there, but
12 while we were there, it was repeatedly hit. Specifically in those days
13 of early June, which you will come to, when we filmed Sarajevo being
14 shelled, it was hit every single night. And we were aware that it was a
15 dangerous position.
16 On the other hand, if a building is going to be targeted, people
17 will generally aim for the middle rather than the top, and therefore I
18 felt actually relatively safe being on the top floor, strange as that may
19 sound to the Court.
20 Q. Now, in addition to this hospital being in existence prior to the
21 war, can you recall when you first saw the emblem of the Red Cross draped
22 across its facade as we can see in this photograph?
23 A. I remember that as -- either at the end of June or the beginning
24 of July 1992. It may have been there before, but I do not recall it when
25 I first arrived in Sarajevo in May 1992.
1 Q. In your statement and in your evidence a few moments ago you
2 referred to balconies from which much of the filming was done. Are we
3 able to see those balconies in this particular photograph?
4 A. No, we are not. They are very narrow balconies, probably not
5 even a metre wide.
6 Q. Are you able to use this photograph to assist the Chamber in
7 understanding where those balconies where?
8 A. Well, they were right on the outside of the building. So here --
9 well, I would say was the right-hand side of the building and here the
10 left had a balcony and then the opposite side of the building also had
11 one of those.
12 Q. So they are on the sides of the building --
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. -- that we cannot see but are adjacent to the side that we can
16 A. Yeah.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, at this time the Prosecution would
19 tender 65 ter 10467 as a public exhibit.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
21 please be given an exhibit number.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Document 10467 receives number P69, Your Honours.
23 MR. GROOME:
24 Q. Mr. van Lynden, in paragraphs 21 to 26 of your statement you
25 describe your observations on civilian life in Sarajevo. In particular,
1 in paragraph 25, you state:
2 "Using a combination of physical and psychological terror enabled
3 the Serbs to turn, alter the heat on Sarajevo as the political military
4 situation demanded."
5 Can you briefly describe what you meant by this?
6 A. Because of their command of the heights around Sarajevo which is
7 an elongated city lying by the river-bed in the valley, because of that,
8 if they wished to, at any moment, any part of the city could be shelled,
9 and various parts of the city, they could literally snipe down the
10 streets. That is one form of -- yeah, I would say psychological terror.
11 The other was that this was a city besieged and therefore there
12 wasn't running water, there was no electricity and there were no ready
13 food supplies. Already by the time I arrived there in May 1992, no shops
14 existed anymore. So they had control also of the basic needs of the
15 civilian population.
16 Once the United Nations started getting food into the city much
17 of the food came by air into Sarajevo airport but that supply could be
18 stopped very easily by simply firing a few shots at the incoming
19 aircraft. And then the whole airlift would be stopped for days,
20 sometimes for weeks. So it was very easy, as I said, to turn on the heat
21 on Sarajevo as the political and military situation demanded.
22 For the civilian position living there for almost four years of
23 siege it was really a constant that they were under psychological
24 pressure, sometimes of a very extreme nature, certainly for those who had
25 small or adolescent children.
1 Q. Mr. Van Lynden, paragraph 44 of your statement refers to a story
2 that you filed on the situation in Sarajevo in May of 1992. I'm going to
3 now play that clip and I will have some questions for you afterward.
4 In order to save time, I will ask Ms. Stewart to play the clip
5 from the beginning until 28.5 seconds. I will rely on the clip's
6 association to the statement to establish the foundation for admission of
7 the remainder of the clip. Or should the --
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: What is the document number?
9 MR. GROOME: I'm sorry. 22460A.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
11 MR. GROOME: And, of course, if the Chamber would wish to view
12 the entire clip here in Court we are prepared to play that.
13 For the convenience of all parties, the English and B/C/S
14 transcript of this video and all other videos that I will show today are
15 available in e-court under the same 65 ter number of the clip, and the
16 booths have been provided transcripts of these clips that will be used
17 this morning.
18 Before playing the clip, I will ask Ms. Stewart to stop on a
19 graphic that appears before the clip actually commences. Variations of
20 this graphic appear on most of the clips I will use today. I will ask
21 Mr. van Lynden to explain the meaning of this graphic.
22 Q. Mr. van Lynden, what we can see now on our screens is a graphic.
23 Can I ask you to help decipher the information that's provided in this
25 A. This is what we call a clock. As you can see then a clock only
1 in terms of seconds that is put or was put before everything single video
2 story before it went on air in an actual news broadcast. It also helps
3 the producers of a programme to see to it that they go at precisely the
4 right moment that you don't have black before the story starts.
5 Apart from that, there is a date of when it first went out, PGM
6 at 1800, what kind of day it was, a Monday, and then the date, the 1st of
7 June, 1992. That is done for library purposes so that a story of that
8 nature can be found, if needed, in the future.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: And PGM stands for.
10 THE WITNESS: Programme.
11 MR. GROOME:
12 Q. So would I be correct in saying that the clip we are about to see
13 was first aired on Sky News on the 1st of June in the 6.00 news?
14 A. That would be correct.
15 Q. And does this necessarily reflect the precise day on which the
16 video in the report was shot?
17 A. No, it doesn't. This, Your Honours, I maybe need to explain that
18 when I was first sent to Sarajevo in May 1992, a decision had been taken
19 by management of Sky News in London that the editing facilities and the
20 picture editor, the person who gets the pictures and then puts them in an
21 order for them to be broadcast and the satellite uplink with which the
22 story was, as we call it, fed from Bosnia into London, that they should
23 remain in Pale and not go with me into Sarajevo. That forced me during
24 that initial period on every day that I had a story to actually cross the
25 lines across the Bosnian -- into the Bosnian Serb lines from Sarajevo
1 into the suburb of Ilidza where a local producer would meet us and he
2 would then take the tapes and drive them to Pale while we crossed back
3 over into Sarajevo again. It was a complex procedure that we didn't,
4 thankfully, repeat later.
5 Q. As a rule, what was the approximate time period between the time
6 that you and your cameramen would capture an image, a story, and that it
7 would be broadcast by Sky News?
8 A. It usually meant that the filming had been done the day before,
9 possibly the same morning, but not after that, because after that, we
10 would be handing over the tape in Ilidza.
11 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, with that introduction I would now ask
12 Ms. Stewart to play the clip.
13 [Video-clip played]
14 "In Sarajevo the cross-roads can be lethal, need to be taken at
15 speed. They and the avenues that cut across the city offer the Serb
16 gunners in the hills above with open lines of fire. Prime targets which
17 the old and the infirm are forced to accept as the new uncomfortable
18 realities of life. As the people of Sarajevo ...
19 MR. GROOME:
20 Q. Mr. van Lynden, is that your voice that we hear during the story?
21 A. It is, indeed.
22 Q. And who wrote the text that you speak?
23 A. I did.
24 Q. Is this the first story that you filed after your arrival in
1 A. It was.
2 Q. The scenes on that video-clip were they exceptional of your
3 experience in Sarajevo during your time there?
4 A. Not at all. They were absolutely normal.
5 Q. In the clip you refer to the Serb gunners in the hills above.
6 How did you know they were Serb gunners in those hills?
7 A. Well, we had driven through those hills and passed Serb positions
8 in those hills in coming to Sarajevo and coming into Sarajevo, because we
9 drove across Mount Trebevic to the Lukavica barracks and then across
10 Sarajevo airport to be able to enter the city.
11 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, at this time the Prosecution tenders
12 65 ter 22460A.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
14 Okay. The document is admitted into evidence. May it please be
15 given an exhibit number.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Document 22460A is becomes Exhibit P70, Your
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
19 Yes, Mr. Groome.
20 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, may I inquire when the Chamber would
21 like to take the first break so I can be mindful of the clips and where
22 best to pause.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: We didn't change the scheduling and this would be
25 an opportune time to take a break, a 20-minute break. We take one-hour
1 sessions and break for 20 minutes at each time.
2 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Would that be a convenient time for you?
4 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Mr. van Lynden, we will take a
6 break of 20 minutes. We will come back at 20 past 10.00. You may stand
8 THE WITNESS: [Microphone not activated]
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, I see Mr. Mladic is standing on his
11 MR. LUKIC: It's his glasses. He wants to leave as soon as
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sure, he will leave just now in a moment. May he
14 please take a seat. Do sit down, please, Mr. Mladic. Thank you.
15 Court adjourned. We come back at 20 past 10.00.
16 [The witness stands down]
17 --- Recess taken at 10.01 a.m.
18 --- On resuming at 10.22 a.m.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Groome.
20 I beg your pardon. May the witness please be brought into court.
21 [The witness takes the stand]
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Groome.
23 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Q. Mr. van Lynden, generally speaking, this morning I will be
25 showing your reports in a chronological order but the next clip that I
1 want to show you is not in chronological order but is from a report you
2 filed in December 1992.
3 Now, with respect to the sniping of civilians in paragraph 49 of
4 your statement, you say that this became so common that unless there were
5 unusual or aggravating features to the sniping incident, it was really
6 not newsworthy.
7 I would also refer the Chamber to adjudicated fact 2018, which
9 "Between September 1992 and August 1994, civilians were shot at
10 almost every day."
11 In reliance on this, I will not explore the sniping of civilians,
12 the evidence which you can provide on this, but I would refer you to
13 paragraph 122 and 127 of your statement where you refer to an attack on a
14 civilian apartment block in the context of the battle of Otes in
15 December 1992.
16 I'd like to play a clip of your story about that attack
17 referenced in paragraph 126 and then ask you some questions.
18 MR. GROOME: Your Honours, the Prosecution will now play
19 video-clip 65 ter 22461A.
20 I would ask Ms. Stewart to begin to play from 1 minute,
21 35 seconds and play until 2 minutes, 41 seconds.
22 [Video-clip played]
23 "Words mirrored by the reality in the city. Serb incendiary
24 rounds, setting a string of flats ablaze in one apartment block. A
25 resident watches, distraught. His home and belongings gone. Seconds
1 later, a further burst of incendiary rounds crash into the building or
2 bounce off the wall into the street below. Wanted arson on a purely
3 civilian target. As ever, Sarajevo's remarkable firemen fight back.
4 Getting their hoses to the flames for once unhampered by a cut in the
5 water supply. But for the fire chief, the water is not the main concern.
6 His engines are running out of fuel, and he tells us he won't be able to
7 cope with another fire this day.
8 "... shelling here in the centre of Sarajevo again on the line.
9 The initial efforts in Bosnia cease-fires and political talks have led
10 nowhere and won't until the western world proves it has a true commitment
11 to ending this war.
12 "Aernout van Lynden, Sky News, Sarajevo."
13 Q. Mr. van Lynden, my first question to you is: Is this one of the
14 reports which is indicated, the location of, is indicated in that
15 panoramic photo display which is now P67, marked for identification?
16 A. It is.
17 Q. In the clip we saw small red objects striking the apartment block
18 one of which bounces back and over the camera. Do you know what these
20 A. These were incendiary rounds. For me that was relatively novel,
21 Your Honours. I served in the Dutch marine corps and within NATO we do
22 not have incendiary rounds fired by guns, but the Yugoslav Army did have
23 these and that is what is being used on that day.
24 Q. You say in paragraph 122 of your statement, "The fire
25 originated --" I believe you mean gun-fire or sniper fire:
1 "The fire originated from the Bosnian Serb side of the
2 confrontation lines."
3 How were you able to tell this?
4 A. A, where the fire was coming from; B for confirmation. After we
5 left that incident, we went to the UN headquarters and spoke to officers
6 there and asked them to verify some of the information that we had got at
7 the scene itself. The direction of where the fire was from and,
8 secondly, whether that building which was a civilian flat building had
9 been used for military purposes by the Bosnians which could have caused
10 this firing.
11 The UN officers confirmed to us that the fire had originated from
12 Bosnian Serb positions and they also confirmed that the people living in
13 this building had told us, that that building had not been used by the
14 Bosnian army.
15 Q. And you yourself were there. Did you see anything that would
16 have indicated otherwise to you?
17 A. No.
18 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour, at this time, the Prosecution
19 tenders 22461A into evidence.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: 22461A is admitted into evidence. May it please
21 be given an exhibit number.
22 THE REGISTRAR: 22461A becomes Exhibit P71, Your Honours.
23 MR. GROOME:
24 Q. Mr. van Lynden, I am now going to return to the period of
25 June 1992 and focus on four of your reports, each of which deal with the
1 sustained attack across the entire expanse of Sarajevo on or shortly
2 after the 6th of June, 1992.
3 Your Honours, the precise dates of these reports is important as
4 they relate to the crimes charged in the indictment in schedule G2 which
6 "A massive bombardment of the city was carried out with a variety
7 of artillery fired from positions all around the city. Civilian targets
8 were damaged and destroyed and a number of civilians were killed and
9 wounded from on or about the 6th of June 1992."
10 I will play an extract of each of these four reports and I will
11 ask Ms. Stewart to pause at the start of each clip.
12 And the first question I will ask you with respect to each clip
13 is to tell the Chamber with as much precision as possible when the video
14 that we are about to see was recorded.
15 And if we could begin with 65 ter 22460C.
16 [Video-clip played]
17 "Dusk in Sarajevo."
18 MR. GROOME:
19 Q. Mr. van Lynden, we do not have the benefit of the graphic in this
20 particular one. Are you able from your own independent recollection to
21 tell us when this was ...
22 A. According to me, this story was filmed before the Marsal Tito
23 barracks were evacuated at the beginning of June 1992.
24 MR. GROOME: Could we please continue with the clip.
25 [Video-clip played]
1 "Amongst the city's ancient minarets the rockets fall, heralding
2 another night of heavy shelling. For the next six hours there is no
3 letup. Eerily lit up by flares, the city is hit from every side, by
4 practically every imaginable projectile. Long lines of heavy machine-gun
5 fire gliding across the roofs, exploding against their targets. Heavy
6 shells slamming into buildings, within seconds engulfing them in flames.
7 A mass of crazy sparks lighting the brow of one hill from a quick fire
8 volley of mortar bombs.
9 "This is a scene of wholesale devastation of a city being
10 obliterated while the world watches, but does nothing."
11 MR. GROOME: Next I would like to play the report referred to in
12 paragraph 55 of your statement which refers to the shelling of the
13 Marsal Tito barracks. And this is 65 ter 22460D.
14 [Video-clip played]
15 MR. GROOME:
16 Q. Mr. van Lynden, we do have the benefit of the graphic here so
17 could I ask you, using this as a reminder to you, when was the video
18 footage that we are about to see actually recorded?
19 A. This is the date that you see in front of you, Your Honours, is
20 of the actual broadcast of the story for the first time, so at 7.00
21 English time on the 6th of June, 1992. Most of the footage would have
22 been shot the previous evening and during that night in Sarajevo, and we
23 would have driven this story as I had already explained across the lines
24 to Ilidza on earlier in the afternoon of the 6th of June. But much of
25 the footage would have been actually filmed on the 5th of June.
1 Q. Now, when you -- you've just testified that it would -- that --
2 it would have been filmed the previous evening and during that night?
3 A. Yeah.
4 Q. Is that the night from the 5th of June to 6th of June?
5 A. It is.
6 MR. GROOME: Can I ask that we now see the clip.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: And when you say "English time," can we accept
8 that all of your times here are English times.
9 THE WITNESS: Absolutely, Your Honour.
10 [Video-clip played]
11 "Just hours after the evacuation of the troops from the
12 Marsal Tito barracks, it becomes the night's prime target. The shells
13 land long, around Sarajevo's railway yard. But inside the vast army
14 complex those still looking for loot get the message and run.
15 "Not long after, the gunners in the hills above the Bosnian
16 capital find their range, the barracks explodes in flames. The barracks
17 form the principal target, yet no district escapes. From the dark, the
18 rockets streak down, for a moment illuminating Sarajevo's ancient centre
19 before reducing it to further rubble.
20 "They come in ones, in twos, in threes, and it sounds as if the
21 city is crying."
22 MR. GROOME: Could I ask that we return to the 28th second of
23 that video and pause on the frame that we see in that time slot.
24 Q. Mr. van Lynden, on the screen before you now is the frame that we
25 see at 28 seconds. Can I ask you to describe what we are looking at?
1 A. These are the mountains overlooking Sarajevo to -- to the east of
2 the city and we -- what we are seeing here - it's not very clear now in
3 the still - is -- well, I think at the time I described as rocket fire
4 emanating from an artillery position on the brow of that hill, mountain.
5 Q. Did you ever have occasion to actually visit where you believe
6 that the fire that we see here originated from?
7 A. I visited a position, whether it is precisely this same one, I
8 cannot say. But a position to the east of Sarajevo, at the top of a
9 mountain, overlooking the city, when I was taken there in September 1992
10 by the defendant to conduct an interview with him.
11 Q. And that's Mr. Mladic?
12 A. Mr. Mladic.
13 Q. I'd like to now play the third clip in the sequence of reports
14 which you returned to in paragraph 59 of your statement, and that is
15 65 ter 22460E.
16 [Video-clip played]
17 Q. Now again, Mr. van Lynden, we've paused at the first frame, the
18 graphic. Can you tell us your best recollection of when the film we are
19 about to see was recorded?
20 A. The first shots that you see were filmed on the late afternoon of
21 the 6th of June and then during the night from the 6th to the 7th
22 of June with some of the last pictures taken in the early morning on the
23 7th of June, before, as usual, we drove the tapes to Ilidza.
24 MR. GROOME: Could I ask that we now play the entire clip.
25 [Video-clip played]
1 "It was the symbol of modern Sarajevo, now of its destruction.
2 Flames tear across the floors and up into the higher storeys. Showering
3 debris onto the streets at the heart of the Bosnian capital. The
4 disintegration of one of the city's Unis towers reflected in the broken
5 windows of its twin.
6 "300 metres on across the road, the parliament of this newly
7 independent state is also struck. It doesn't burn, but the near
8 Marsal Tito barracks do. Since its evacuation, two days earlier, it has
9 been systematically destroyed.
10 "Every night in Sarajevo, you think it can't get worse, but it
11 does. Making a mockery of the attempts of mediators to bring peace to
12 the city, which is enfolded in war.
13 "Less than 24 hours earlier, the Serb commanders have put their
14 signatures on yet another agreement, affirming a truce, never adhered to,
15 and their readiness to reopen the airport. Now the Serb gunners in the
16 hills show where their true commitment lies. Under a sickle moon, the
17 city rocks to the explosions. Lit up by fire, and a mass of glowing
18 sparks adrift across its roofs.
19 "With daylight we find the intensive-care wards of the city's
20 central hospital packed with amputees in pain. Some will live but the
21 doctors are resigned to this girl's death. Not far from where she lies
22 do others that have gone before. A place of haphazard death, some
23 covered, some not, where maggots crawl the floors. A little house of
24 Bosnian horror.
25 "Aernout van Lynden, Sky News, Sarajevo."
1 MR. GROOME:
2 Q. Mr. van Lynden, I'd like to now play the fourth and final clip of
3 your reports first aired in the beginning of June 1992.
4 Could I ask that we begin to look at 22460F, and, again, if we
5 pause at the graphic.
6 And again, Mr. van Lynden, could you tell us your best
7 recollection as to when the video we are about to see was actually
9 A. This one is slightly different to the ones that have gone before,
10 Your Honours, because on the 8th of June while we did go -- actually get
11 to Ilidza to deliver the tapes, the producer from Pale didn't make it.
12 So this was only handed over on the 9th. Therefore, this was filmed on
13 the night of the 7th and on the 8th, as far as I recollect, and not on
14 the 9th itself.
15 MR. GROOME: Could I ask that we now play the entire clip.
16 [Video-clip played]
17 "Sarajevo's burning, in its heart and in its suburbs. Suddenly
18 on Sunday night, the whole city becoming the target. No district spared.
19 All shaking as every ten seconds the rockets, shells and mortars land.
20 The fire so heavy, so incessant, that the deadly streams of light
21 criss-cross each other.
22 "By early Monday morning, the inundation of the hospitals
23 begins. For the doctors and the nurses of the city's former military
24 hospital, already up throughout the night, the beginning of a dark, grim
25 day, the like of which they've never known. Trained fingers, which for
1 24 hours which will work without respite. To stem blood, extract jagged
2 metal, preserve life. But so many casualties of war, so many distorted
3 faces and torn limbs."
4 MR. GROOME:
5 Q. Mr. van Lynden, I would like to ask you some follow-up questions
6 about the sequence of the four reports that we have seen from the 5th,
7 6th, 7th and 8th of June. First, a general question relating to all four
8 videos. Where was this footage filmed from?
9 A. All the shelling that you saw was filmed from the top floor of
10 the former military hospital. Of course, there was some footage in one
11 story from the Kosevo academic hospital where you saw the wounded and the
12 dead. This last shot here is also at the Kosevo and there were shots
13 lower down at the casualty department of the military hospital. But all
14 the footage of the buildings burning and of Sarajevo being shelled, those
15 were all filmed from the top floor of the former military hospital.
16 Q. In the second video-clip from the 5th and 6th of June, you
17 referred to "the gunners in the hills above the Bosnian capital."
18 Do you know what side those gunners were associated with and how?
19 A. Those -- those -- those were the gunners of the Bosnian Serbs.
20 They were the ones with the artillery and with those positions in the
21 hills surrounding the city.
22 Q. In the same footage of the 5th and 6th of June, you describe what
23 seems to be different types of shelling. In respect to the shell of the
24 Marsal Tito barracks you observe that initially "the shells land long
25 around Sarajevo's railway yard."
1 Shortly afterwards, you describe how the gunners in the hills
2 above Sarajevo find their range.
3 Could you describe in a bit more detail what you meant by this
4 and what you observed?
5 A. My personal experience as someone who was trained in the use of
6 mortars and my experience with various artillery units prior to the war
7 in Yugoslavia specifically during the first Gulf War when I was with the
8 American and British forces in Saudi Arabia and was explained the use of
9 artillery by trained artillery officers is that they are given a certain
10 target to fire at and usually the shells either ran long or too short.
11 There are usually spotters or observers who will then try to correct
12 their fire; either the shells have to be fired further or brought in.
13 And it usually takes a minimum of three shells to land before they are
14 spot on their target. This is what I meant by the shells land long on
15 Sarajevo railway yard. Those were shells that were fired too far just
16 over the Marsal Tito barracks. Later they clearly found their range.
17 They brought the shells in and then they were clearly fired at the
18 Marsal Tito barracks that had been evacuated by the Bosnian Serb army and
19 where there was still military equipment lying and it was clearly that
20 that was one target that they wanted to hit and destroy. It is a very
21 large complex dating from the Austro-Hungarian period, 19th century
22 buildings, and they clearly found target and remained on that target.
23 But separate to that, there was shelling right across the city in
24 a quite different kind of one or two shells landing in one district or
25 another district. It was completely unpredictable. For a cameraman it
1 is very, very complicated to film this kind of shelling. If it is
2 sustained on one target then the cameraman can do so. But now it was all
3 over the place. That we were able to capture so much on camera is an
4 indication of just how heavy the fire was during those days.
5 Q. Now, in paragraph 55 of your statement, near the bottom of
6 page 14 in the original you refer to -- you make the following statement:
7 "Simultaneously, I saw fire raining down all over Sarajevo. It
8 was not in the same concentrated manner as the fire directed at the
9 Marsal Tito barracks. It was just shell fire directed at the city with
10 no apparent military purpose."
11 Is this the other type of shelling that you've just referred to
12 during your evidence.
13 A. Yes, absolutely. Artillery when it is used for military purposes
14 will take one target and have sustained fire on that target; either to
15 keep opponents from doing an attack or to sustain a military force in
16 doing an attack of their own, or in the case of, for instance, the
17 Marsal Tito barracks because the Bosnian Serbs believed that within those
18 barracks there was military hardware that could be of use to their
19 enemies and therefore they wanted to destroy it.
20 But what we saw in the rest of the city was one or two shells
21 landing completely all over the place and I said just rained down because
22 it came from the skies, and it felt almost as if it was raining shells.
23 But as I said, all over the city and that cannot have had a direct
24 military purpose apart from to bring terror to the lives of everyone
25 living in the city.
1 Q. Now, in relation to the footage of the 6th and 7th of June which
2 features the burning of the Unis towers identified as 22460E for our
3 purposes at the moment, in your statement at paragraph 59 you state that
4 you did not see any outgoing fire from the building.
5 Did you have an opportunity to visit this building and can you
6 tell us what, if any, observations you made about whether there was
7 military activity in the building at the time you were there?
8 A. I did visit the building before -- before the evacuation of the
9 Marsal Tito barracks. The Unis towers, if we walked up them, we could
10 look directly into the main square inside the Marsal Tito barracks.
11 However, it was a new building. We couldn't open any windows. It was
12 all centrally air-conditioned. We looked, we asked, I looked then for
13 spent cartridges as an indication whether a building has or has not been
14 used for military purposes and I did not find that, and I did not see
15 that the building had been used for military purposes. I only went into
16 one of the towers, I have to say here, but I didn't see any fire ever
17 emanating from those buildings while we were at the military hospital,
18 nor did I see the military there in any form.
19 Q. And what is your best recollection of the date on which you made
20 this visit to one of the towers?
21 A. This was just prior to the evacuation of the Marsal Tito
22 barracks. So it would have been on the 2nd and 3rd, 4th of June.
23 Q. Now, to those of us who observed these clips, it appears that
24 there are quite a few shells that your cameraman was able to capture.
25 Can I ask you to characterise the relative amount of shells that were
1 captured, depicted here, compared to your own personal observations being
2 in Sarajevo during this period?
3 A. Well, as I already explained, it's -- filming shelling is very,
4 very difficult. What one gets is you get the first initial blast and you
5 see smoke rising, so you start pointing your camera in that direction.
6 One of our problems during those days in Sarajevo was that the next shell
7 might land on the opposite side of the building and we were often running
8 from one balcony on one side of the building to the balcony on the other
9 side of the balcony to try and capture all of the shelling that was going
11 So it was very, very difficult. It was almost continuous during
12 those nights, but we did -- that so much was filmed by the cameraman is
13 an indication of just how heavy the shelling was, as I already said.
14 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, at this time, the Prosecution tenders
15 into evidence the four clips we have just viewed. They are
16 65 ter 22460C, 22460D, 22460E, and 22460F.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: No objection, Mr. Lukic?
18 MR. LUKIC: No objection.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
20 Madam Registrar, the four clips are admitted into evidence. May
21 they please be given an exhibit number respectively.
22 THE REGISTRAR: 22460C become Exhibit P72; 2240 -- 22460D becomes
23 Exhibit P73; 22460E becomes Exhibit P74; and 22460F becomes -- oh, it's
24 not admitted. Is -- yeah?
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, it is here.
1 THE REGISTRAR: 22460F becomes Exhibit P75, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Registrar.
3 Mr. Groome.
4 MR. GROOME:
5 Q. Mr. van Lynden, I'd like to now focus your attention on your
6 meeting with General Ratko Mladic in the hills to the east of Sarajevo in
7 September 1992 which you describe in paragraphs 76 to 90 of your
9 I'd first like to play the clip of -- or the news report that you
10 filed with respect to this. And could I now ask that we play
11 65 ter 22457B.
12 [Video-clip played]
13 MR. GROOME:
14 Q. We can go directly to playing the ...
15 [Video-clip played]
16 "Reporter: He is the scourge of Sarajevo, the chief warrior of
17 the Serbs. He is called Ratko Mladic approximately. Ratko means warrior
18 and this square jawed Serb general has lived up to the name. Commander
19 always on the move, the visit to one of the mountain's chalets where the
20 Serbs of Bosnia have established their separatist government is but a
21 fleeting one. In a short briefing, the Commander-in-Chief speaks only of
22 attacks on his forces, never of offences by them. And as if to prove the
23 point he gives us a rare chance to accompany him to front line artillery
24 positions where the UN observers are conspicuous by their absence. High
25 up on the wind swept hills, the 100-millimetres guns are dug deep into
1 the rocks directly overlooking Sarajevo. An overwhelming position of
2 strength which is obviously to the general's satisfaction. As he says,
3 he holds the city in his palm and many of the buildings in the haze below
4 they are testimony to that power. Yet General Mladic's is quite
5 unrepentant. He is man who has no doubts, only a total assurance that he
6 is right, the world wrong, and that his people have been slandered
7 "Ratko Mladic/interpreter: I hope the UN Security Council first
8 takes measures to understand that we Serbs are a reality in this world,
9 no some sort of extraterrestrials and that we have the right to defend
11 "Reporter: Nearby, more positions are being dug in the general's
12 eyes the world may deny his people their rights but that's not going to
13 stop him.
14 "Ratko Mladic/interpreter: We have to fight as long as we
15 continue to exist to defend ourselves. There is no other way and we are
16 prepared for a long war.
17 "Reporter: Far away from the battle field, the UN is preparing a
18 resolution on war crimes. It leaves Ratko Mladic quite unmoved."
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, Mr. Mladic is giving a sign to stop.
20 I'm not quite sure what he wants to say. Can somebody please from your
21 team hear what he is going to say.
22 And speak softly, Mr. Mladic.
23 Mr. Mladic, Mr. Mladic, Mr. Mladic, speak slowly and speak
25 [Defence counsel confer]
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Mladic. Mr. Mladic. Speak softly.
2 [Defence counsel confer]
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Mladic, Mr. Mladic, I am going to stop you
4 there. You can talk to your team during the break. I thought you had
5 something to say about what is happening here.
6 Mr. Groome, you may proceed.
7 MR. GROOME: I would ask that we un-pause the clip and watch till
8 it's --
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Mladic, can you please keep quiet.
10 [Video-clip played]
11 "R: ... war crimes. It leaves Ratko Mladic quite unmoved.
12 "Ratko Mladic/interpreter: I am not bothered at all. I did not
13 take part in any crimes. I have only defended my people.
14 "R: With that, the general departs to inspect other front lines
15 in a war neither he nor his officers believe will end any time soon.
16 "Aernout van Lynden, Sky News, on the front lines outside
18 MR. GROOME: Could I ask that we return to the 31st second on
19 this clip and pause and that frame.
20 [Video-clip played]
21 MR. GROOME:
22 Q. Mr. van Lynden, we are now at 31 seconds. Can I ask you to
23 identify the people that are depicted in the frame going from left to
25 A. I'm the figure on the left. Mr. Mladic is the figure in uniform
1 in the middle. And, on the right is my field producer, Zoran Kusevac.
2 MR. GROOME: Could I ask that we now go to 1 minute, 13 seconds,
3 and hold on that frame.
4 Q. Now that we are at that point in the report, are you visible in
5 this frame as well?
6 A. Yes, I'm the figure on the left. Next to me is Zoran Kusevac, my
7 field producer and interpreter, and then there are three military
8 officers of the Bosnian Serbs, within the middle, Mr. Mladic.
9 MR. GROOME: Can I now ask that we go to 53 seconds in the
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Groome and witness, could you please pause
12 between question and answer because some parts of your answers are not
13 recorded properly.
14 MR. GROOME: I apologise, Your Honour. I will do that.
15 Q. Mr. van Lynden, we are now at 53 seconds, can I ask you to
16 describe what we see in this frame?
17 A. This is Mr. Mladic looking through binoculars at the city of
18 Sarajevo which was directly below this artillery position.
19 Q. Where is this artillery position in relation to the picnic bench
20 where we see you, Mr. Mladic, and others having a conversation?
21 A. The picnic bench was at that location, at the artillery position.
22 Q. And so that the record is clear, is this a different location
23 from the one we saw at 31 seconds where you are looking at a map in an
25 A. We originally met Mr. Mladic in Pale, and in an office he gave us
1 a briefing of the map, which is what you saw at 31 seconds. He then,
2 somewhat to our own surprise, drove us to this artillery position
3 overlooking Sarajevo from the east.
4 Q. Now, in your report you refer to "many of the buildings in the
5 haze below." It is not clear because of the quality of the video what
6 could be observed from this position. Can I ask you to describe what
7 could you see from that position while you were there?
8 A. Your Honours, if tapes are copied all the time, then the quality
9 diminishes and that is what has happened on this occasion on the tape
10 that the Tribunal holds. But in the original footage you could actually,
11 through the haze, make out the city of Sarajevo.
12 Q. And which portion of the city was visible, if you recall?
13 A. I mean, really, the whole city, elongated in front of us from the
14 east all the way to the west.
15 Q. In the clip you describe General Mladic indicating to you that he
16 holdings Sarajevo "in his palm."
17 Can I ask you to explain to the Chamber the context in which this
18 occurred and to describe in detail precisely what happened when
19 Mr. Mladic indicated this to you?
20 A. When we got to the position, if you do a television story of this
21 nature, you need to get some shots of the people walking around without
22 us in it. And so General Mladic met his officers there and various other
23 people, other soldiers, looked around, and we filmed that, including him
24 looking through the binoculars at Sarajevo. But at a certain moment he
25 asked us to come closer and pointing at the city, gave -- did this, and
1 said, and this was translated to me by my field producer, I hold the city
2 in the palm of my hand. Or words of that.
3 Q. Now, I want to describe what you've just gestured here in court
4 and ask you whether I've probably characterised what you have done.
5 With your right hand, you pointed in front of you at something,
6 and then with that same right hand with the index finger extended you
7 pointed into the cupped palm of your left hand. Is that your best
8 recollection of what Mr. Mladic did?
9 A. That is my recollection, yes. It made an impression on us. I
10 used it in the story. It wasn't filmed because the cameraman was trying
11 to keep us out of the picture, if -- if that makes sense.
12 Q. And what did you understand General Mladic to be conveying to you
13 with this statement and this gesture?
14 A. That he did, indeed, hold the power over Sarajevo. That he held
15 all the high ground.
16 I imagine -- we hadn't -- we had requested an interview with
17 Mr. Mladic, but we hadn't requested an interview at an artillery
18 position. We hadn't even been requested to be taken to an artillery
19 position. He took us there. And I think - but this is my reading of the
20 situation - that he was trying to prove to the world but also to his
21 opponents inside Sarajevo: I hold all the commanding positions. I hold
22 the power over you.
23 Q. Did you see Mladic after your report was aired by Sky News?
24 A. I did. A few days later, by chance, we were still working on the
25 Bosnian Serb side, and we encountered each other on the road. He
1 stopped. He got out of the car. We were a little weary because of my
2 opening line to the story, "He is the scourge of Sarajevo." This had
3 been criticised within Pale by certain Bosnian Serbs who felt that I was
4 denigrating their commanding officer.
5 When he came out of the car, however, his first words were,
6 pointing at himself - again this was translated to me by my field
7 producer - I'm the scourge of Sarajevo. And he said it with a smile and
8 was clearly not displeased with the story you have just seen and indeed
9 invited us to lunch at the military position where he was driving to
10 inspect. We did indeed accompany him and have lunch there.
11 Q. And over the course of the lunch, did he make any reference to
12 your report or this report?
13 A. We talked about it initially, but that was it.
14 Q. And what is your recollection of any comment he may have made
15 with respect to that report?
16 A. No, as far as I'm aware, he had nothing bad to say about the
17 report. Thought was fair. We had let him speak ...
18 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, at this time the Prosecution tenders
19 22457B into evidence.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: 22457B is admitted into evidence. May it please
21 be given an exhibit number.
22 THE REGISTRAR: 22457B becomes Exhibit P76, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
24 Yes, Mr. Groome.
25 MR. GROOME:
1 Q. Mr. van Lynden, in paragraph 88 of your statement, you mentioned
2 that away from the camera you asked General Mladic for permission to
3 visit Bosnian Serb positions around Sarajevo. General Mladic granted you
4 that permission and provided you with an escort of two military
6 Paragraphs 87 to 112 of your statement describe your tour of
7 these positions, specifically Trebevic, Grbavica, Hrasno, and the area of
8 Sarajevo referred to as the Jewish cemetery.
9 In those paragraphs, you describe in detail your observations.
10 Therefore, I don't propose to ask you any further questions here.
11 Do you know -- the question I do have for you is: Do you know if
12 Mladic was the person who made the arrangements for you to have the
13 military police escort?
14 A. Prior to returning to Pale in September 1992, we had been in
15 Pale, and on each occasion that we had tried to work out of Pale on the
16 Bosnian Serb side, we found that within half an hour or so of leaving
17 Pale we would be arrested or detained at a military check-point and
18 finally sent back to Pale again and that we weren't able to work.
19 So I held a number of meetings with Radovan Karadzic, the Bosnian
20 Serb political leader, both at that time and also during the
21 London Conference in August 1992 and finally again at the Intercon hotel
22 in Belgrade in September 1992. And what I requested from him is that we
23 be given some kind of an escort so that we would actually be able to work
24 and film. And Mr. Karadzic agreed. When we got to Pale, we met him. In
25 the end, he provided us also with a letter explaining who we were and
1 that we should be allowed to film. This letter was not signed by him,
2 nor by Mr. Mladic. It was signed by Mr. Krajisnik, who was the
3 Speaker of the Bosnian Serb parliament. And then we were given two
4 military policemen. Now, whether Mr. Karadzic organised that or
5 Mr. Mladic, that I wasn't told. But those two military policemen then
6 accompanied us on any trip we made outside of Pale.
7 Q. I want to now play one of your reports from this -- these visits
8 that you made.
9 MR. GROOME: Could I ask that we now play 65 ter 22457D and could
10 I ask Ms. Stewart to please begin plying this clip at 35 seconds and play
11 until the end of the clip.
12 [Video-clip played]
13 "Reporter: The no man's land that's given the area its name is
14 the Jewish cemetery. Across the jumble of graves, new and old, some of
15 the fiercest battles have been fought. The string of little villas
16 lining the cemetery have been turned into bunkers. Sittings room walls
17 roughly redecorated with lines of logs, although some of the defences are
18 more imaginative. Bathroom mirrors, subtly deployed, to allow one guard
19 to view all angles. Of late, the tanks against the Serb lines in this
20 sector have diminished, leaving the battalion commander exuding
22 "Unidentified officer: We're ready for a long struggle, but we
23 believe we will only spend a short time in these positions. Either they
24 will have to accept peace, or there will be an all-out war in which we
25 will try to achieve victory in a very short time.
1 "Reporter: The major's confidence is understandable. Unlike his
2 opponents, he doesn't face a lack of logistical support made worse by
3 siege. And if he is ordered to attack, he will do so from a commanding
4 position, so commanding that in the streets below, few dare to move.
5 "Aernout van Lynden, Sky News, Sarajevo."
6 MR. GROOME: Could I ask that we return to the 41st second of
7 this clip.
8 Q. Mr. van Lynden, we can now see that frame. Can I ask you to
9 describe what we are looking at.
10 A. We're looking at grave stones in what is called -- or what was
11 called the Jewish cemetery.
12 Q. And from where this is recorded? Where is the cameraman?
13 A. In a Bosnian Serb military position.
14 Q. Can we now go to 1 minute, 37 seconds.
15 And, again, we are now at 1 minute, 37 seconds. Can you tell us
16 what we see in this image?
17 A. This is a shot of Sarajevo. The buildings we see are north of
18 the river. It's taken from the south from, again, Bosnian Serb military
19 positions, and it shows how, from those positions, you can look straight
20 down the streets of certain parts of Sarajevo.
21 Q. Based on your work in Sarajevo, are you aware of any sniping
22 instances that occurred in the area that is depicted in or near this
24 A. Yes, there were incidents often there. And I think -- I'm not --
25 sorry, you can't quite see, but I think that the road has been sort of
1 blocked off by buses or trucks so that civilians can pass unnoticed
2 behind them in the road just by this church.
3 MR. GROOME: I'm going to ask that maybe, perhaps with the
4 assistance of the usher, if we could ...
5 Your Honour, I'm informed that we would be unable to have the
6 witness make a mark on that.
7 Q. Could I ask you to describe, perhaps in a bit greater detail, the
8 feature that you are referring to now. We are unable to have you draw a
9 circle around it for technical reasons.
10 A. I'm referring to, you see the road which is next to it, lying
11 next to the church, the land posts and then there is a white vehicle,
12 another vehicle, a greenish vehicle to its -- to the left and that is
13 blocking off that street so that civilians could pass behind that, and
14 obviously not come under sniper fire from a position from where this was
15 actually filmed.
16 Q. Thank you. Now, during your visits to these locations that we
17 see depicted in reporting, was there any gun-fire emanating out from the
19 A. Not when we were in -- by the Jewish cemetery, or that we
20 actually filmed when we were in Grbavica, although we heard shots fired
21 and we thought it was from the same building, but when we were taken
22 higher up, Hrasno, there, we actually saw machine-gun fire and filmed
24 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the Prosecution tenders 22457D into
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can -- Mr. Mladic. Mr. Mladic. Mr. Mladic, if
2 have you talk to your team, can you talk softly so that we don't have to
3 hear you. Okay. Fair enough. We understand that. Now, you don't have
4 to take three minutes for the Court to stop.
5 Mr. Mladic. Mr. Mladic. The Court is talking. We understand
6 your request. Just hold it.
7 22457D is admitted into evidence. May it please be given an
8 exhibit number.
9 THE REGISTRAR: 22457D becomes P76, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you sure it's 76, Madam Registrar, not 77?
11 22457B was 76, Madam Registrar.
12 THE REGISTRAR: I apologise, Your Honour. It's Exhibit P77,
13 Your Honours.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
15 Mr. Mladic is indicating a request that we stop. It's three
16 minutes before stopping time.
17 Would that be a convenient point for you, Mr. Groome?
18 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: We will take a break then, and we will come back
20 at 20 to 12.00.
21 Court adjourned -- before we adjourn, Mr. van Lynden, you may
22 stand down.
23 [The witness stands down]
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Groome, how much longer you are you still
25 going to be?
1 MR. GROOME: I think a little bit more than five minutes, Your
2 Honour. I just have a few more questions now.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
4 We will take a break and come back at 20 to 12.00.
5 Court adjourned.
6 --- Recess taken at 11.17 a.m.
7 --- On resuming at 11.44 a.m.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the witness please be brought into court.
9 [The witness takes the stand]
10 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
12 Yes, Mr. Groome.
13 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Q. Mr. van Lynden, I want to conclude my examination with -- ask a
15 few additional questions about the videos or the reports in general, and
16 perhaps I'm stating something very obvious. But am I correct in saying
17 that the video that was ultimately shown as part of Sky News broadcast
18 was but a portion of all of the video that was recorded by you and your
20 A. Absolutely. It always is. By definition, any television news
21 report, the usual way we see it is about one minute that makes air, you
22 have 20 to 30 minutes have actually been filmed. It's always edited
23 down. So there is much more material than that is -- that is actually
25 Q. Earlier today you described the challenges of trying to record on
1 video shelling that occurred in many different locations at the same
2 time. Were there ever occasions when your cameraman kept the camera on
3 for a prolonged period of time to capture what was happening over the
4 skies of Sarajevo?
5 A. Yes, there were moments. I mean, he was filming, not me, but I
6 saw the footage afterwards. If the cameraman felt that there was one
7 particular spot that was going to keep on being hit, he would just keep
8 recording on that. But cameramen are taught, certainly television news
9 cameramen are taught, that they have to try to get different shots
10 because it has to be edited and if you have one shot, you can't edit
11 that. So it would never really go much longer than a minute or two.
12 Q. And this raw footage, do you believe that you still have some
13 possession or have possession of some of the footage that was shot over
15 A. Yes, I do. A tape was made of a sort of compilation of the raw
16 footage of the shelling of Sarajevo in June 1992, and I do, amongst my
17 possessions, have - or had at least - a VHS copy of that.
18 Q. And would viewing such a video give the viewer a sense of what it
19 would be like to have stood on a rooftop in Sarajevo and observe the
20 shelling on the nights that this footage was created?
21 A. We were not on a rooftop.
22 Q. Well, I mean, from a vantage point?
23 A. Yes, I suppose it would.
24 Q. Mr. van Lynden, under Rule 98 of the Rules of Procedure and
25 Evidence, the Chamber can direct the production of evidence. Should the
1 Chamber come to a view that having such raw footage would assist them,
2 would you be willing to search among your belongings for this footage?
3 A. I would.
4 Q. Mr. van Lynden, when was the last time you saw Mr. Mladic?
5 A. In 1994.
6 Q. Can you describe that encounter for us, please.
7 A. The encounter took place after what is known as the first market
8 bombing in Sarajevo, in February 1994. I had, at that time -- I wasn't
9 based in Sarajevo; I was based in Central Bosnia. And I then moved to
10 Pale, to the Bosnian Serb headquarters, and a team from Belgrade with our
11 Belgrade bureau chief and a Belgrade cameraman came -- came down from
12 Belgrade to Pale and met me there. A separate team from Sky News went
13 into Sarajevo. We -- the very first day I met with Mr. Karadzic who was
14 not particularly pleased to see me but did give me -- grant me an
15 interview and we stayed there for a couple of weeks. There was a NATO,
16 for the first time, a NATO ultimatum to the Bosnian Serb to withdraw
17 their heavy weaponry from around Sarajevo so that a bombing like the one
18 from the market could not reoccur. There was a stand off for a time.
19 There were mediators involved, also from Russia. And one morning, quite
20 early, and, as I recall, a Sunday morning, but I may be wrong about that,
21 we were called. My -- the Belgrade bureau chief, my producer was called
22 asking us to come to the Bosnian Serb Presidency and when we arrived
23 there, a crew from BBC television were also there with their
24 correspondent, John Simpson, and John and I thought that we had been
25 asked to go there for an interview with Mr. Karadzic to react to what
1 NATO was saying at the time.
2 We were wrong. We were actually there because the highest
3 military council of the Bosnian Serbs were meeting, and the Bosnian Serbs
4 wanted Sky News and the BBC to film this, and so it was the cameraman and
5 the producer from Sky and from the BBC who were taken into the room.
6 Mr. Karadzic was there, a number of other generals. And John and I were
7 left waiting in a hall or an anteroom. And then Mr. Mladic walked in
8 surrounded by a number of other Bosnian Serb officers. Seeing me, he
9 began, well, really shouting at me in Serbo-Croat, a language that I
10 don't really understand, and he walked up to me and grabbed me in my
11 face, like this, which made it impossible for me to answer even if I
12 could have understood what he was saying. The only two words that I
13 understood -- I mean, I got the general gist of what he was trying to
14 say, that he did not think I was the world's greatest journalist, but
15 there were two words he used specifically which I did understand which
16 were the words, Zuc and the word Gorazde.
17 Zuc is a hill on the north western side of Sarajevo that, in
18 December 1992, it had been held by the Bosnian Serbs was taken by the
19 Bosnian army, and the day after they captured it, I was taken by the
20 Bosnian army to film on Zuc and did a report on the capture of Zuc by the
21 Bosnian army.
22 As far as I am aware, the Bosnian Serb leadership never admitted
23 to the fall of Zuc.
24 Gorazde, I take it, this was a city, an enclave in Eastern
25 Bosnia, and I walked in -- in the beginning of 1993, in February 1993
1 through Serb lines and spent some two weeks in the besieged enclave, and
2 I imagined that Mr. Mladic was expressing his displeasure with my
3 reporting of the fall of Zuc and of me entering the besieged enclave of
5 Q. Now, when you described, you said, just in your last answer,
6 "Grabbed me in my face, like this," and you gestured and you grabbed the
7 chin and cheek of your face with your hand.
8 A. Yeah.
9 Q. Is that the way that Mr. Mladic grabbed your face?
10 A. Yes. That's -- as I recall, yes.
11 Q. Did you say anything to him after this encounter or during the
12 course of the encounter?
13 A. Well, during the course of the encounter as he was holding me, I
14 couldn't say anything at all. When he let go and walked away, the only
15 thing I said was, I will see you in The Hague. John Simpson then said to
16 me that that was rather a weak repost. But here we are.
17 Q. Thank you, sir. I have no further questions.
18 MR. GROOME: I have no questions -- no further questions,
19 Your Honour.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Groome.
21 Mr. Lukic.
22 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I'm happy to do this now or at a time
23 later in the day, but there are ten associated exhibits that the
24 Prosecution has not worked with but does intend to tender. Mr. Lukic has
25 informed me that he would prefer to submit legal arguments after the
1 witness finishes, so I will be guided by the Chamber, whether the Chamber
2 would like me to place them on the record now or ...
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Maybe let's deal with them at a time when it is
4 both convenient for both of you to talk about them.
5 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
7 Yes, Mr. Lukic.
8 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
9 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:
10 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. van Lynden.
11 A. Good afternoon.
12 Q. I'll just start briefly with what you said today during your
14 First of all --
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just a second, Mr. Lukic. I'm not hearing any
16 translation -- I beg your pardon.
17 Okay. You may proceed.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Very well. I shall repeat that.
19 Q. In your abridged statement that was given to us by Mr. Groome, it
20 says that you were commander of a mortar platoon. Were you a mortar
21 platoon commander in actual fact, or were you trained to be one?
22 A. I was trained to be an officer in the Royal Netherlands Marine
23 Corps which is generally an infantry unit, and I was given specific
24 training with mortars and was then was also, for a time, the commander of
25 a -- of a mortar battalion in the Netherlands Antilles.
1 Q. And for how long were you a platoon commander?
2 A. For a year. I was doing my military service. Generally, in the
3 Netherlands, that would have been 14 months, but the Dutch marine corps
4 is nearly -- or was, in those days, nearly completely professional and if
5 you wanted to do -- be a reserve officer, you had to serve for at least
6 two years.
7 Q. Thank you. Also, I'm a bit confused because it was said that you
8 were in Sarajevo from 1992 until 1995.
9 Can you tell us now when was it that you actually were in
10 Sarajevo? We know that you arrived at the end of May 1992. How long did
11 you stay the first time? When did you leave? When did you come back?
12 Because I think that this is inaccurate, to say that you were in Sarajevo
13 all the time.
14 A. I do not recall ever saying that I was in Sarajevo all the time.
15 It's certainly inaccurate. If that is stated anywhere. I was in
16 Sarajevo May/June, I left for a period in June of about a week and then
17 returned and stayed there throughout July until early August. In
18 September, I was in Pale as we've already seen, and I was again in
19 Sarajevo throughout -- from late October until the middle of -- well, no,
20 the 20th or 21st of December of that year.
21 In the years that followed, I visited Sarajevo in 1993, in 1994,
22 in 1995, and 1996. Usually I stayed shorter, and I spent more time in
23 Central Bosnia and there were also periods when I was not in Bosnia at
24 all, when I was sent to Moscow or to other places.
25 Q. Thank you. Thank you.
1 You showed us what it was that you could see from the military
2 hospital and you say that you used it as a centre for filming. For
3 example, from this hospital, you could not see Dobrinja; is that right?
4 A. That is right. Dobrinja lies next to Sarajevo airport right in
5 the western side of the city, and you could not see it, no.
6 Q. Thank you. And today we saw that burning building, and we also
7 heard the report that you made.
8 When you were there, when the firing had already started, before
9 it started, when were you there?
10 A. The question is not completely clear to me in translation.
11 We arrived, and some of those flats were already on fire. And
12 the bullets were hitting that building. That continued after we arrived.
13 We were driving from the city centre to Sarajevo television station at
14 the time.
15 Q. Thank you. You said that people told you that the building was
16 not used by the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina. But you didn't check
17 that yourself, did you, those allegations; is that correct?
18 A. We checked as far as we could. What you look for is you look for
19 any men in uniform. Certainly by December 1992 the Bosnian army had
20 actually -- actually existed and was quite well organised. You looked
21 for anything that could be a sign; for instance, spent casings from
22 bullets because they didn't go around clearing those up.
23 We asked the people living there, and then we went to the UN to
24 ask them. They have rather more people around. We were just one small
25 team. And they told us that it had not been used to the best of their
1 knowledge by the Bosnian army.
2 Q. Did you actually enter the building?
3 A. Yes, we did.
4 Q. That day?
5 A. Yes, we did.
6 Q. And you didn't record that? Or perhaps we didn't see that here
8 A. Whether I entered it with the cameraman or whether you entered it
9 with my field producer, that I can't remember. Whether the cameramen
10 came in, that is quite possible that we left him outside and that we went
12 I should just add, it is something that we were aware of that we
13 had to be careful of is to check as much as possible whether any target
14 had been used by the military to make it a legitimate military target for
15 their opponents. So it is something that we always checked on.
16 Also, at the former military hospital when we first arrived
17 there, certainly as we were going to be spending our nights there, it is
18 something that I checked on as carefully as I could because if it had
19 been used by the Bosnian military then we were obviously -- I was putting
20 my own crew in greater danger.
21 Q. Thank you. In any case, you were not able to check the
22 apartments that were burning, if the soldiers were there in these
23 apartments that were shot at?
24 A. No. This is not a police investigation in a city that is not at
25 war when you have the freedom to do that kind of thing. This was a city
1 at war, and, therefore, the investigation we did was absolutely limited
2 by those constraints.
3 Q. Thank you. We're going to go into more detail about the
4 parliament. Today you said that the parliament was also -- the
5 parliament building was also shot at. At the time, was the building
6 being used as a parliament building or was somebody else occupying it?
7 A. The parliament has its -- consisted of two buildings. A tower,
8 let's say on the right from the pictures that we're using, and then a
9 lower building on the left. I had actually been in the lower building on
10 the left. This was a front line position, Your Honours, and we saw
11 Bosnian soldiers in that lower building.
12 I did not enter the higher building, so I am not aware if it was
13 or was not used by the Bosnian military as well. But the lower building,
14 absolutely was, yes. And it was not being used as a parliament at the
15 time. I mean, there was a state of war.
16 Q. Thank you. And you said in paragraph 55 of your statement
17 something about how the artillery should decide on a target and how it
18 should concentrate its fire on that one target. Is this the regular
19 procedure even if you have a thousand targets in one place? Would you
20 also focus just on one in that case?
21 A. One might well focus on more, but the kind of fire on each target
22 would be sustained fire. Because otherwise it really, from a military
23 point of view is nonsensical. You want to then destroy that target and
24 just firing one shell at a target is not going to do that. Quite apart
25 from that, one would have to be incredibly lucky if one were to hit the
1 target with just one or two shells. As I've already described to the
2 Court, this -- this takes time, and nearly always it takes more shells on
3 one target and this is what we witnessed on the Marsal Tito barracks. It
4 was in the end, not initially, that is normal in -- with the use of
5 artillery. In the end it was accurate and sustained fire and it
6 continued for a very long time; in fact, not just one night, but two.
7 But most of the rest of the fire did not give me the indication that they
8 were firing at 1.000 targets in a sustained manner that I would think
9 would be normal for artillery to be used in in the manner that it had
10 been explained to me by professional artillery officers.
11 Q. We will come to what they explained to you, and we will make
12 comparisons between the US army and the US -- and the Bosnian army and we
13 will also compare terrain in Sarajevo and Iraq.
14 But now, I would like to go back to something and I will put this
15 question which I think is not disputed. You said earlier today that you
16 do not speak Serbo-Croatian, or B/C/S, as we call it in this Tribunal
17 today; is that correct?
18 A. That is correct.
19 Q. All the information that you got from conversations was
20 information that you received through an interpreter; is that correct?
21 A. No. There were conversations in English. Mr. Karadzic spoke
22 English; Mr. Milosevic spoke English. One encountered other people who
23 spoke English, doctors. Not usually within the Yugoslav Army. And then,
24 yes, I would need a translator. This was usually my field producer,
25 Zoran Kusevac, who did the translation for me.
1 Q. Thank you. Can we now look at paragraph 12 of your statement,
2 please. You say in this paragraph at the beginning:
3 "It is impossible that the Bosnian Serb command, whether military
4 or political, did not know what was happening in the Bosnian enclaves. I
5 myself filed reports from the field about it, and my broadcasts were
6 picked up by the local media."
7 Which local media would broadcast Sky News?
8 A. As I think I also said in my statement, initially when I first
9 arrived in the former Yugoslavia, Sky News had a deal with Yugoslavia
10 state television and we were broadcast, if I remember correctly, 12 hours
11 a day on what was called the Third Channel. Later, this was stopped, but
12 our reports were picked up and used without any asking of permission by
13 anyone who wished. As far as I am aware, there were special programmes
14 made both in Bosnia and in Croatia on the lines of what others are saying
15 about us, and many of the reports that I filed, indeed even many of the
16 lives I did when I'm questioned from the studio in London, they were
17 rebroadcast by those television stations also, at times, in Serbia.
18 Q. But you don't know exactly when and which media in
19 Republika Srpska? You're not able to tell us this now? So that we could
20 check that, if you do know?
21 A. The reports -- or at least some of the reports that I did in
22 September 1992 were used by the television station in Pale, and I
23 discussed them with Mr. Karadzic and some of his advisors. They watched
24 it there. Mr. Karadzic did quite a lot of lives into Sky as well. And
25 Mr. Mladic much have watched as well because when we encountered him
1 after the interview, he knew one of the lines that I had used, and he
2 said that he'd seen the report and that he was not displeased with it.
3 Some people in Pale were displeased with it, but he was personally not.
4 That's why I say they could watch our reports, and we knew that they were
5 watching our reports.
6 Q. Your reports were in English; is that correct?
7 A. That is correct. But they were translated by those media that
8 then decided to rebroadcast them. Again, without any control on our
10 Q. And now could you please look at paragraph 18 of your statement.
11 You say:
12 "To my knowledge, Bosnian Serb forces held the high ground around
13 the city in May at this time. At this stage, the airport was also in
14 Serb hands."
15 Let me ask you this first: Were there lines of separation at the
16 time? Were the armies facing each other along the front lines?
17 A. I'm not sure that in May 1992 you can actually speak of a Bosnian
18 army. You can speak of various armed units, but of an army, not under
19 the definition that I would use.
20 There was clearly -- when we crossed from Ilidza to -- into
21 Sarajevo, there was clearly a -- what I would call a no man's land
22 between the front lines on the Bosnian Serb side and the front lines on
23 the Bosnian side. It was a very dangerous things to do. One of the
24 first rules of war for any war correspondent is don't cross lines. In
25 Bosnia, we had to do this often and you often got shot at and you never
1 knew who was shooting at you. There was clearly a front line there.
2 There seemed to us at some of the locations that we were taken to, for
3 instance, when we were taken to near the Jewish cemetery but then on the
4 Bosnian side, that there was clearly a front line there too. But I
5 didn't go everywhere in the city. The city was too big, than was not
7 Q. Thank you. You spoke a lot with Mr. Karadzic in 2010 about these
8 hills that were occupied, and it turned out that actually at that time
9 and today you don't know which army held which hill at that time; is that
11 A. No. We were actually told in Pale that the Bosnian Serbs were
12 holding the high ground. And you go onto Mount Trebevic on your way to
13 Sarajevo, and that's where the Bosnian Serb forces were throughout the
14 war. At higher positions and at lower positions. As one drove into
15 Grbavica, you would only encounter Bosnian Serb forces.
16 When I was taken to Zuc, this hill had clearly been in possession
17 of the Bosnian Serbs, and the military commander there pointed out ...
18 MR. LUKIC: Just a second.
19 I apologise.
20 THE WITNESS: And the military commander there pointed out to the
21 other positions around that and told me they were under control of the
22 Bosnian Serbs.
23 Another thing that was -- when I -- after my interview with
24 Mr. Mladic in September 1992, we were taken by the two military policemen
25 on a road that had been build specifically by the Bosnian Serb army, we
1 were told, and this is on the northern to Vogosca, all the way -- we went
2 all the way to Ilidza and even to the front near to Hadzici. And all the
3 way we were told, These are positions held by us, and this was the
4 northern high ground around Sarajevo.
5 Q. In any event, today, you are saying that the Army of Bosnia and
6 Herzegovina did not hold positions at Trebevic at that time; is that
8 A. Well, not on the main mountain side, no. I mean, and not on the
9 road, if you come down that road, no.
10 Q. The elevations closer to town. Do you know that they were held
11 by the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?
12 A. There were certain positions, let's say, in the south-east of
13 Sarajevo --
14 Q. Well, let's just stop here. We're talking about Trebevic. Are
15 you also speaking about Trebevic or some other positions? Are you aware
16 that the positions in Trebevic closer to town were held by the forces of
17 the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?
18 A. Well, I was never taken by them there, no.
19 Q. So we can conclude that all the fire that came from Trebevic,
20 that you ascribe that fire to the Serbs; is that right?
21 A. Well, if it was hitting Sarajevo and the Bosnian part of Sarajevo
22 held by the Bosnian forces, then yes.
23 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 21 of your statement, you say:
24 "People lived as much as they could in the basements of their
25 apartments or in bomb shelters."
1 Does that mean that the apartments were empty?
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Groome.
3 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the witness's statement is in evidence
4 as P66, and although all of us in the courtroom here have access to it, I
5 wonder whether those viewing the trial would not be assisted by having it
6 placed on e-court. So I would ask or suggest to the Chamber that perhaps
7 the statement be placed on e-court and the appropriate paragraph be
8 displayed there as well.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
10 MR. LUKIC: I have no objection to this proposal.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. We'll do that.
12 May the statement please be shown in e-court. Paragraph 21.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We have that on our screens now.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. My question was: Were the apartments in Sarajevo empty, since,
17 as you say -- or said at the time, people were living in basements or in
18 bomb shelters?
19 A. No, they were not. People would take to the bomb shelters, or to
20 the basements and bomb shelters if they were lucky when there was heavy
21 shelling. But, of course, people went up to their apartments for their
22 clothes, for food to eat. And it depended on the period in Sarajevo.
23 You had that period that I have described in court this morning of early
24 June 1992 when people did spend a lot of time in -- in -- in shelters or
25 basements, but there were other periods of time during the war in
1 Sarajevo when they would not have done so and would have been in their
3 Q. Is it also correct that the civilian buildings in Sarajevo were
4 turned into military positions right from the beginning of the conflict?
5 A. In an urban war, where there are front lines within the city,
6 then obviously. What were prior civilian buildings or businesses are
7 likely to find. If they are on the front lines, then they will
8 definitely be turned into -- that is, I would say, obvious in any urban
9 battle ground.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're referring only to buildings that are on the
12 front line, Mr. van Lynden?
13 THE WITNESS: Certainly on the front lines, Your Honour. But, of
14 course, I'm also aware that certain other buildings that may previously
15 have been businesses, generally I would think businesses, the ones that I
16 saw, but I didn't see that many were turned into various kinds of
17 headquarters of the armed forces. But, again, in a city under siege,
18 that is almost bound to occur.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. And can we now look at paragraph 22 of your statement, please.
22 You said that:
23 "The United Nations had to seek permission to be allowed access
24 across front lines so that food and aid could be delivered to one's
25 enemies. They had to ask permission from one side."
1 Humanitarian aid did come into Sarajevo; is that correct?
2 A. Absolutely.
3 Q. And do you know how much humanitarian aid came into Sarajevo on a
4 daily basis?
5 A. We were told by the UNHCR that that varied. We were also told in
6 December 1992 by one of the senior figures of UNHCR in Sarajevo that it
7 was never enough.
8 Q. I assume that in war time, no one has enough; is that correct?
9 A. Oh, there are certain people in war time who have more than
10 enough. There's always those who actually make money out of war.
11 But what I will --
12 Q. But it's a vast minority of people who use the war in that way.
13 A. Yes, it is. And, for me, one of the strange things about the war
14 in Bosnia was that it was the first time that I'm aware of that the
15 United Nations stepped in with a humanitarian relief programme and asked
16 one side to stop shooting so that they could feed the enemies, and this
17 did occur throughout the war in Bosnia.
18 Q. Are you aware of the information that, other than ground convoys,
19 there were about 10.000 humanitarian flights into Sarajevo during the
21 A. Yes, I am aware that there were flights. The number I was not
22 aware of.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, Mr. Lukic. By "during the period," are you
24 referring to the entire period of the war?
25 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. As a war correspondent, did you know how much weaponry was coming
4 into Sarajevo every day?
5 A. That would have been a wonderful scoop to get. But in any war,
6 journalists are usually not privy to that information. The only war that
7 I can recall where I was able to get some kinds of facts or figures was
8 in the war in Afghanistan in the 1980s. But no military side in any war
9 that have I been in, whether with militias, like in Beirut, for instance,
10 in Lebanon, is going to give you that kind of information.
11 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 23, you talk about fuel. I'm not going
12 to read here what you said. But I do want to ask you if you know what
13 the situation was in the areas that were held by Serbs, as far as fuel is
15 A. My experience - this is specifically Eastern Bosnia - was that
16 people were using wood but wood that was more available, easily available
17 from the forests where they lived rather than in a city like Sarajevo.
18 But generally, as far as I'm aware, in places like Vlasenica or Pale,
19 most people were using wood.
20 Q. Thank you for this answer, but could you now answer my question.
21 What was the situation with the parts of Sarajevo held by the Serbs?
22 A. Oh, I see, sorry. I thought you meant the Serbs -- the
23 Bosnian Serbs.
24 From my experience of what I saw there, specifically in
25 September 1992, and again when I was taken into Grbavica in
1 February 1994, the situation was that food was more plentiful than in the
2 rest of Sarajevo but that there were also problems with that and that
3 also there there was a problem with heating fuels.
4 Q. Before the war, Sarajevo used gas for heating. It's Russian gas;
5 do you know that? And do you know who turned that gas off? Who switches
6 off gas when you don't pay your bill?
7 A. The provider, one imagines.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 A. The -- I was aware - because you asked me the question - that
10 they used gas for heating. Some gas at certain moments was reinstated
11 again during the war in Sarajevo.
12 As to the situation between clients and customer on the gas
13 front, I'm afraid that was not one of the things that I looked into
15 Q. Thank you. Next paragraph, 24, says that going out for water
16 meant risking your life.
17 Are you aware that on both sides of the separation line, UNPROFOR
18 set up visual obstacles to hinder infantry fire directed at civilians?
19 A. I'm aware that on both sides of the separation line this was
20 done. I never witnessed UNPROFOR actually doing this. I saw a lot of
21 local initiatives. But I'm absolutely aware that this happened on both
22 sides, yes.
23 Q. Thank you. Paragraph 25 of your statement you speak of a
24 constant war of terror against the civilians. You say it was two-pronged
25 in its approach: Shelling and sniper fire at civilians.
1 In the course of these proceedings, we have already seen and
2 we'll be seeing more about this, but I'm asking you: Do you know that
3 the Muslims fired from sniper rifles at their own civilians in the city
4 of Sarajevo?
5 A. I have never witnessed that. I have heard the allegations. I
6 have never seen proof. And whether these were Muslims or simply members
7 of the Bosnian army, you may take care in that, because within the
8 Bosnian army, there were Muslims but there were also Catholics and
10 Q. How many Serbs and Catholics were there in the ABH, in terms of
11 percentages, if you know?
12 A. I couldn't give you percentages, but I found it noticeable that
13 even when I went into the enclave of Bihac in late 1994, that's the
14 commander of operations of the Bosnian army 5th Corps was a Serb, and
15 that's the kind of situation that I did encounter elsewhere with other
16 corps -- Bosnian army corps. But precise percentages, I couldn't give
18 Q. At the Karadzic trial, you were asked if you knew that in the
19 Army of Republika Srpska there were whole units made up of Muslims.
20 Since then, have you checked this, now that we're speaking of the
21 national composition or ethnic composition of these two armies?
22 A. No, I haven't. But I would come to the question and ask: If
23 this was the case, why were journalists like myself not taken to such
25 Q. Regrettably you only get to answer questions, not ask them. Just
1 as I only get to ask questions, not answer them.
2 A. I would just leave the question there for the Court to consider.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: My I interrupt you for a moment. You mentioned
4 one Serb commanding in Bosnian Muslim army unit. Could you please repeat
5 the name.
6 THE WITNESS: He was the commander of operations at the
7 headquarters of the Bosnian army 5th Corps in Bihac.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could you please repeat the name of this person.
9 THE WITNESS: I don't recall the name of this person. I've met
10 him but --
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I thought you would have mentioned his name but
12 it was not recorded. Thank you very much.
13 THE WITNESS: To be honest, Your Honour, I have encountered more
14 Serbs and Croats within the Bosnian army and it wasn't as if it was the
15 exception that proved the rule, and therefore whilst I imagine somewhere
16 in my notes I may have the name, it's 18 years ago. I don't remember
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
19 Mr. Lukic.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. The information we have is that Atif Dudakovic was the commander
22 of the 5th Corps. He was a Muslim. It's just that he was a former JNA
23 major and he was in the 220th Motorised Brigade. That is information
24 that we have and that we will certainly debate further in the course of
25 these proceedings, I expect.
1 However --
2 THE WITNESS: May I? I said he was the head of operations.
3 That's G3. I didn't say he was the commanding officer of the Bosnian
4 army 5th Corps. That is indeed Atif Dudakovic. We are talking about two
5 different people.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Unfortunately, we're talking about one person who remains
8 anonymous for the time being, but we may be able to clarify it later.
9 Let's come back to paragraph 25 of your statement regarding
10 sniper positions. You visited a sniper position held by the
11 Army of Republika Srpska, and we have seen that in your footage. Is it
12 the case that you have never visited a sniper position held by the
13 Bosnian Muslim forces in Sarajevo?
14 A. We were taken in early June, as I've already mentioned, to
15 positions held by the Bosnian army within part of the parliament
16 building. I did not see any sniper rifles there. And at other locations
17 along the front lines that I was allowed to go to, there may well have
18 been snipers, but I did not see any sniping rifles.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, we have sat for an hour. If you can
20 find a convenient moment.
21 MR. LUKIC: Any moment is convenient for me, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Can we take it at this time?
23 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. May the witness please be
25 escorted out of court.
1 [The witness stands down]
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: We'll take a break and come back at the top of the
4 Court adjourned.
5 --- Recess taken at 12.40 p.m.
6 --- On resuming at 1.02 p.m.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the witness please be brought into court,
9 And, Mr. Mladic, please take a seat.
10 [The witness takes the stand]
11 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
13 Yes, Mr. Lukic.
14 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Q. [Interpretation] Can we continue?
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Of course you may.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. We established before the break that he have never visited the
19 sniper positions of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Therefore, you
20 cannot know today, nor were you able to know then, what these positions
21 were facing and what they were targeting; correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. During your stay in Sarajevo, did you learn how many civilians
24 were killed in Sarajevo by armed Muslims?
25 A. Are you referring to people killed in Grbavica and the areas of
1 Sarajevo held by the Bosnian Serbs?
2 Q. In areas held by Bosnian Muslims.
3 A. In the area held by the Bosnian army, I was not given any figures
4 by -- about how many people had been killed by their own side, is what
5 you're trying to say.
6 Q. No. How many Serb civilians were killed in the territory of the
7 city of Sarajevo held by the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina? In pure
9 A. That is not the question you originally asked. You asked about
10 civilians, as I got the translation.
11 And the answer is: I was not given those figures, no, if it
12 happened; nor were we told, did we hear about such matters apart from
13 when we were in Pale.
14 Q. And what did you hear in Pale?
15 A. All sorts of conjecture, but not things that we were able to
16 actually prove when we were on the ground inside Sarajevo; about prisons,
17 about executions.
18 Q. We'll come to a passage where you say -- where you describe how
19 there were people on the ground in Sarajevo who were checking fire from
20 Serb snipers in order to report whether somebody was hit or not.
21 Do you know that pre-texts like that were used to enter Serb
22 apartments, kill Serb civilians, to imprison people?
23 A. I was not a witness to any such events.
24 Q. And if you heard in Pale such allegations, such accusations, you
25 did not deal with them when you were in Sarajevo; correct?
1 A. Incorrect. We absolutely asked. We tried to follow up also on
2 certain occasions.
3 There is one instance that I specifically recall in the period of
4 November/December 1992 when we were in Sarajevo staying at the former
5 military hospital that a Serb man was brought in wounded. We asked how
6 he had been wounded. He had been wounded in his flat from fire from
7 outside. We went to the flat, spoke to his wife, but we got -- the
8 indications that we had, as far as we could work out, was that this fire
9 had come from Bosnian Serb positions.
10 I -- in the city, I was never told -- we asked but we never got
11 any confirmation of the things that you are alleging right now.
12 Q. I am not alone in putting forward these facts. These facts will
13 be proven amply during these proceedings.
14 Was that the only time you inquired into the wounding of a Serb
15 civilian in Sarajevo? And do you know the name of that civilian? Is it
16 anywhere in your notes?
17 A. What you prove or not prove has got nothing to do with me. You
18 asked me a question, and I have given you an answer. Did we inquire into
19 the wounding of people in Sarajevo whether they were Serb, Croat, or
20 Muslim? Yes, we did. Could we always go somewhere? No, it's not always
21 possible. But we did inquire. And we made inquiries about how -- if any
22 of this was true at various levels. On the official level by going to
23 the Bosnian Presidency, talking to people there, but also on a lower
24 level talking to army units or police units about all of these things.
25 We never found proof. We were never, maybe, put in that position, but we
1 never could back up any of those allegations.
2 As to your last question do I know the name of that civilian,
3 well, I would have a really incredible memory if, 20 years later, I could
4 pop out the name of one civilian. And the answer is I can't. Do I have
5 it in my notes? I have no idea if I have it in my notes, but ...
6 Q. Do you have your notes with you today?
7 A. Here?
8 Q. [In English] No.
9 A. No.
10 Q. [Interpretation] In The Hague.
11 A. I have had to move back to The Hague with all of my possessions
12 as I explained right at the beginning of today's hearing. I have not
13 sorted out all my administration and all my notes from my various war
14 zones, and therefore I don't know what I do or do no longer have. We
15 moved a lot. My wife was a diplomate. Every three to four years, we
16 moved from one city to another.
17 Q. A similar question was put to you in May 2010 by Mr. Karadzic.
18 You did not find it appropriate knowing that you would be testifying in
19 this case to try to find your notes and see what's in them.
20 A. Shortly after I testified against Mr. Karadzic, my wife was --
21 got pancreatic cancer. I spent the rest of 2010 looking after her. We
22 had to move back from Rome to Holland. When we were living in Rome, our
23 belongings were still in the Netherlands, so immediately afterwards I
24 could not look into my possessions. After my wife died, and I moved back
25 from Rome to the Netherlands, all my possessions that had been locked up
1 here did come back into my house, but, no, at that moment of my life,
2 there were other things like trying to create a new life and get a job,
3 to be quite frank with you, Mr. Lukic, that were more important to me
4 than one notebook from one war.
5 Q. I'm truly sorry for what happened to you, and I offer you my
6 sincere condolences of the death of your wife, but you will understand
7 that we have to do our job, too, and there was no ill intent behind my
9 At the trial of Mr. Karadzic on 19 May 2010, on page 2451 of the
10 transcript, you spoke about your ability to verify certain information,
11 primarily who was shooting at whom, where the fighting was going on, and
12 you say at line 23:
13 [In English] [Previous translation continues] "... with both
14 sides as far as possible but often it was an impossibility. We simply
15 didn't get answers."
16 [Interpretation] Can we agree that you were aware that you were
17 putting out unverified information?
18 A. In any war as a war correspondent it is fairly difficult when
19 there is an engagement to call both sides and say, Could you please give
20 me your version of what happened. Almost a ridiculous point to make.
21 One tried as much as one could to verify, and to be as accurate
22 as we possibly could be. That said, it is done at that time. You are in
23 a war zone. You are yourself being shot at. And that -- not all
24 information you give may be 100 percent accurate is also true. But then
25 I have learnt in my life in war zones that the truth is a complex
1 many-sided thing. I am aware of that, and we tried always in our reports
2 to be as careful as possible, to be as accurate as possible.
3 Q. Also on the same day, on page 2464, you say:
4 [In English] [Previous translation continues] "... if we are not
5 shown and if we are not told, how are we meant to know?"
6 [Interpretation] That also fits into your previous answer, that
7 you were trying to find out as much as you could, but it's possible that
8 you did not always receive correct information and that would,
9 consequently, lead to inaccurate reporting. However --
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Groome.
11 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I am concerned that the witness had
12 just been given or read a portions of his answers. A little unfair to
13 the witness and I would request that Mr. Lukic read the question and the
14 answer so that the witness can fully appreciate the context of his
15 answer. It is some time ago that he gave this evidence. I believe he
16 should have the ability to understand, at least the question and the full
17 answer that he gave.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
19 MR. LUKIC: Unfortunately cut only this portion so if my learned
20 friend from the other side have the question and the answer if front of
21 him, I am glad to hear and the witness can hear both.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Groome.
23 MR. GROOME: I'm happy to do that if the Court feels that's
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Indeed.
1 MR. GROOME: So the question before the answer or that -- or the
2 portion of the answer that Mr. Lukic is -- the following quote:
3 "Q. But, Mr. van Lynden, Ilijas is the location where most of
4 the shells in this war fell and proportionally their losses were the
5 great civilians and soldiers. Sarajevo municipality that totally -- that
6 your interest did not focus on at all.
7 "A. But, Mr. Karadzic, if that's the case, why were we not taken
8 there by your government and by your army? If we are not shown and we
9 are not told how are we meant to know? You cannot have correspondents in
10 a war zone running around freely without two front lines. You didn't
11 show us. How is the rest of the world to know. I was never taken there
12 by your government or by your army."
13 MR. LUKIC: Now we have it on the record.
14 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. van Lynden, let's just clear up one thing.
15 Ilijas, the area referred to here, is a part of Sarajevo
16 controlled by the Army of Republika Srpska; right?
17 A. The Army of the Republika Srpska didn't take me there. This is
18 the point I was trying to make to Mr. Karadzic.
19 Q. We've heard that. Let's just establish one thing. Ilijas was a
20 part of Sarajevo controlled by the Army of Republika Srpska?
21 A. As far as I'm aware, yes.
22 Q. It is being asserted here that that was the most heavily bombed
23 area in Sarajevo throughout the war. Did you have any knowledge about
24 that? You say here that the authorities of Republika Srpska did not take
25 you there and did not show that to you.
1 A. It is asserted by Mr. Karadzic that that is the case. I haven't
2 heard it asserted by anyone else or at least it hasn't been done so to
3 me, nor in the meetings that I had, either with Mr. Karadzic or with
4 anyone else from the Bosnian Serbs, were we told this information at that
5 time or taken there. So I repeat the point that I made two years ago.
6 If you're not taken there and you're not told, how are we meant to know?
7 And you cannot have a situation as I tried to also make clear to
8 Mr. Karadzic of war correspondents freely driving around along the front
9 lines. No army would accept that. And, by the way, no sensible war
10 correspondent would do so. It would be pretty dangerous in a foreign
12 Q. Apart from the fact that you did not see this and did not report
13 about that, for the reasons that you mentioned yourself, are you
14 challenging it here today, namely, that Ilijas -- are you saying that
15 Ilijas is a part of Sarajevo that was not heavily bombed throughout the
17 A. No, I'm not saying anything of the kind. I'm saying that we were
18 not given that information during the war and, therefore, that I don't
20 Q. Thank you. Also, Mr. Karadzic asked you -- actually, we have to
21 go back to all of these things that he asked you because we have a
22 statement of yours that is practically identical for both trials. This
23 is what he asked you. He asked you about something that had been claimed
24 by General Rose.
25 You said yourself that you received information from UNPROFOR,
1 that you had only three men on your team. At that time UNPROFOR had a
2 lot more information because they're an international organisation with a
3 lot more manpower; is that right?
4 A. Has this got to do with General Rose or -- well, UNPROFOR had
5 thousands of people. We are a television news team. The two are clearly
7 Q. We'll get to General Rose. Is it true that you sought
8 information from UNPROFOR and, indeed, received information from
10 A. UNPROFOR would give briefings, and UNPROFOR would be willing --
11 some -- some of the officers to -- if we went there and had questions, to
12 give us answers. Sometimes they did. Sometimes they didn't. Sometimes
13 they said they knew. Sometimes they said they didn't know and didn't
14 have the information. So, yes, we would go to UNPROFOR because we felt
15 that this was the outside force not allied to either of the forces
16 fighting the war, and, therefore, that we were more likely to get an
17 objective answer as to what had actually happened on the ground from them
18 than they would from either of the conflicting parties.
19 Q. You said something interesting now; namely, that UNPROFOR was
20 impartial. How much do you know about UNPROFOR impartiality?
21 A. We accepted that UNPROFOR was a United Nations force drawn from
22 various countries around the world. Therefore, there are always bound to
23 be certainly imperfections of a military and organisational nature but
24 that was not, in principal, partial to the war. There may have been
25 certain individuals within UNPROFOR who were less impartial. But,
1 generally speaking, my contact with most of the officers - most of the
2 officers - of UNPROFOR was that they were relatively impartial.
3 They were not sent there by their governments, nor was that the
4 agreement reached at the Security Council for them to be partial. They
5 weren't sent to intervene militarily in the war in Bosnia. They were
6 sent there primarily to facilitate the food aid that we have already
8 Q. Obviously you are talking about 1992. This impartiality, did it
9 change over the years? Ultimately, did this impartial party bomb one of
10 the parties involved in the conflict?
11 Is it not a fact that NATO conducted air-strikes at the behest of
12 UNPROFOR? Against Serb positions, that is.
13 A. I'm aware of NATO doing so in defence of areas that had been
14 called safe havens that came under attack by the Bosnian Serbs.
15 As far as I'm aware, the first time that such air power was used
16 was in April 1994 around Gorazde. There, the UN clearly felt that,
17 having declared safe havens, they had to also take action to see to it
18 that that haven remained safe.
19 Q. All right. Just a moment, please. Thank you.
20 What is a save haven? Would that be an armed stronghold or a
21 disarmed area? What is your view of that?
22 I'll withdraw the question.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. However, regardless of that, which side the UNPROFOR sided with
1 in 1995, General Rose -- well, let's not bring in his book now. But on
2 pages 69 and 70, and this was put to you by Mr. Karadzic as well on the
3 21st of May, 2010.
4 So, this is what General Rose says:
5 "Many journalists in Sarajevo supported the military option,
6 either because this was felt to be morally right or to engage in some
7 kind of holy war against the Serbs, or because images of war sell better
8 than images of peace."
9 This is what I'd like to ask you first: Did you know about this
10 position taken by General Rose?
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Groome.
12 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, could the Prosecution please have the
13 transcript reference of the Karadzic examination so that we can follow
15 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
16 [Interpretation] 2631 is the page number; lines 9 through 12.
17 Q. So were you familiar with this position of General Rose?
18 A. No, I'm not a particular friend of General Rose's, so he hasn't
19 actually mentioned this to me personally. This is his personal opinion.
20 He is allowed a personal opinion, but he hasn't talked to me about it,
22 Q. All right. Is it correct that the Murdoch information empire
23 advocated war against the Serbs? Mr. Murdoch who owned Sky News, inter
25 A. Mr. Murdoch does not own Sky News. Mr. Murdoch is a minority
1 shareholder in Sky. He tried to buy it last year and failed.
2 The Murdoch information empire doesn't work as a hierarchical
3 institution. Neither Mr. Murdoch nor any of the executives within BSkyB
4 ever told us what to day, what to think. That simply didn't happen. I
5 have no idea what the views are of Mr. Murdoch or of his children or of,
6 indeed, of the board of his various enterprises as to the war in Bosnia.
7 Q. All right. Before you arrived in Bosnia, we saw all the jobs you
8 had and where you worked. Inter alia, you say that you were in
9 Afghanistan, I think, in 1980, and that you reported about the fighting
10 of the Mujahedin against the Russian forces; is that right?
11 A. I made four treks into Afghanistan in the 1980s, Your Honours.
12 In 1981, 1982, 1985, 1989 with a group of the Mujahedin from Pakistan,
13 each trek about three months, whilst the country was still occupied by
14 what was then called the Soviet Union, rather than the Russians, yes.
15 Q. You had good connections with the Mujahedin at the time; right?
16 A. If you were going to be taken by a group, it was actually -- I
17 mean, this is -- you are crossing an international boundary without a
18 visa, you have to know the people you are going with, because, really, if
19 you are going into a guerilla war, you are putting your life in their
20 hands. I found a commander called Abdul Haq with whom I had often
21 difficult but good relations, yes. We came from different cultures.
22 Q. However, you had to establish initial contact with the Mujahedin.
23 How did you manage that?
24 A. I'm not quite sure of the relevance to this Court, but what would
25 I would do is I -- we -- I went to Peshawar in 1981 and then went to the
1 varios resistance groups with -- that had offices in Peshawar, asking
2 them if they had a field commander who was returning into Afghanistan,
3 specifically for the Kabul area because I felt that I could --
4 Afghanistan is a large country. I had to do this on foot. And I felt I
5 could be most effective in my analysis if I went with a commander from
6 the Kabul area. That's how I met Abdul Haq, in one of those offices. We
7 then had fairly length negotiations, and then he agreed to take me with
9 I wasn't introduced is what I'm trying to say. I just went out
10 there to find it.
11 Q. In order for you to be accepted, was this initial contact for you
12 managed by some foreign intelligence service, or are you claiming that --
13 or are you claiming that the Mujahedin would just take in a foreigner,
14 just like that, and admit him into their own ranks?
15 A. I -- I can understand that from -- certainly the perspective of
16 your -- the person you are defending, it is very hard to understand what
17 the Afghans were like or their organisation was like 31 years ago. I can
18 assure you that it was very badly organised, but quite open where their
19 headquarter were in Peshawar, and as a foreign journalist, you could
20 simply walk in and try to do what I did. I was absolutely not brought by
21 anyone else, not even another journalist. There had been journalists
22 before me and there were many journalists after me who did the same thing
23 I did.
24 In the context of the present day, this is unthinkable. Anyone
25 trying now to go with the Taliban who is a western journalist would not
1 be able to do so. But 31 years ago if Peshawar, the way I've described
2 it was the way that it happened. And the idea that foreign intelligence
3 was in any way involved is a ludicrous one, but maybe not coming from
4 someone who was an officer in the Yugoslav army, because that was the
5 kind of mindset they grew up with.
6 Q. I asked you this because we all know, and it's a generally known
7 fact, that the CIA had a major part in organising this Mujahedin
8 resistance to the Soviet Union. Were you aware of that?
9 A. In 1981, when I first entered Afghanistan, yes, there were
10 weapons coming via Pakistan to the various resistance groups. These came
11 from various sources. The largest source at that time that we saw was
12 China, specifically in the forms of mines.
13 At no stage in my reporting in Afghanistan was there a moment
14 when I thought, This is a movement that is organised from abroad. Yes,
15 it is true that during the conflict, specifically from 1985 until 1989
16 when the Soviet Union withdrew from Afghanistan, the supply of weapons,
17 specifically of anti-aircraft rockets, did increase. These were
18 undoubtedly funded by the United States of America.
19 But you really do not understand Afghanistan if you think that
20 the CIA ran that war. They didn't.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I just ask -- interrupt here.
22 Mr. Lukic, where are we going with all this?
23 MR. LUKIC: Because we have to connect the presence of Mujahedins
24 in Bosnia, and we have the line of questions regarding them.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, if we want to connect the presence of
1 Mujahedin in Bosnia with what happened in Afghanistan, do we need to go
2 through the entire war in Afghanistan or could we just say that the
3 people who were in Bosnia who came from Afghanistan and they were
4 Mujahedin. One sentence.
5 MR. LUKIC: But I wanted to establish the connection of this
6 gentleman with Mujahedins and whether he was any dealings with their
7 influx into Bosnia.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not aware of any question that you asked him
9 that relates to that point that you --
10 MR. LUKIC: But I didn't know what I would get from the gentleman
11 so I had to ask him first, and then my questions would develop depending
12 on what he answers to me.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we stay relevant to the case before us.
14 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
15 Q. [Interpretation] I'm just going to ask you one more question in
16 relation to Afghanistan and then we're going to leave that subject aside.
17 In an open source on the Internet, I found something that links
18 you to arms supplies to the Mujahedin. Did you have anything to do with
19 providing the Mujahedin forces with weapons at the time when you were in
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Groome.
22 MR. GROOME: A reference that is a bit more specific than an open
23 source on the Internet. That can be really anything.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you repeat that, Mr. Groome.
25 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, before the witness can give a
1 considered answer to that, he must have something more specific than
2 information that's out somewhere in the Internet. I mean, there's all
3 sorts of information out on the Internet, a large majority of which is
4 unverified or actually false. I'm suggesting that Mr. Lukic, in order
5 for that question to be fair, needs to be more specific about the
6 reference so that the witness can recognise it or actually produce
7 whatever it is that he found on the Internet that he wishes the witness
8 to comment on.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Groome.
10 Yes, Mr. Lukic.
11 MR. LUKIC: I'm just trying to get that information. Obviously I
12 don't have it with me.
13 I'll move on, Your Honour. We'll move to paragraph 26 --
14 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, I mean, can I just actually answer
15 the question.
16 The answer is absolutely no. Absolutely none at all. Anyone who
17 is a correspondent for more than a couple of months but -- and, in my
18 case, I did it for 23 years, you cannot survive by dangling in that kind
19 of business.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Thank you.
22 Now paragraph 26, please. So we're no longer dealing with
24 You say that you never saw a person being wounded by sniper fire
25 but you saw some civilians who were -- who died soon after they were hit
1 by sniper fire.
2 First of all, I'd like to ask you whether you know what the
3 difference is in terms of ammunition between a sniper rifle and a
4 regular, ordinary rifle? Is the ammunition used the same? The
5 ammunition used by the Army of Republika Srpska? Or was it different.
6 Do you know?
7 A. As far as I'm aware, and as far as I recall, I saw in
8 September 1992 several different rifles. I am not an expert on sniping.
9 And, again, as far as I am aware, the calibre of a bullet is different.
10 But I'm not an expert. I was not trained in this within the marine
11 corps. And, to be honest, Your Honours, one of the things that you
12 actually don't do as a war correspondent is go out specifically searching
13 to go out with a sniper. And I can explain why. It happened to a
14 colleague of mine in Beirut who went with a sniper, who wanted to do a
15 story on the life of a sniper. And when they got to the point the sniper
16 said, I have two people I can shoot. You choose. You put yourself in a
17 morally impossible position.
18 I heard this story right at the beginning of my career and
19 therefore have never sought to go out with a sniper.
20 In September 1992, we were taken to certain positions, and there
21 happened to be people there holding sniping rifles, but we didn't
22 specifically ask for that.
23 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, it's time, I think, to call it a day.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are right, Mr. Lukic. Thank you so much.
25 Mr. van Lynden, we are not done with your testimony. I am sure
1 you are aware of that. And let me just say what is abundantly obvious to
2 you. While you are on the witness-stand, you may not discuss the case
3 with anybody, least of all with the Prosecution now that you are under
4 cross-examination already. You may stand down and come back tomorrow
5 morning at 9.00. Same courtroom.
6 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.
7 [The witness stands down]
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: The Court will adjourn and come back at 9.00
9 tomorrow morning.
10 Court adjourned.
11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,
12 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 22nd day of
13 August, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.