Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1378

 1                           Wednesday, 22 August 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Mladic, we are -- we are in Court.  Please

 6     take ...

 7             Mr. Mladic.

 8             THE ACCUSED:  Yes.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sit down.

10             Mr. Lukic, may you please make sure that you control your client.

11             Madam Registrar, would you please -- Mr. Mladic.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

13             This is the case IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

15             Good morning to everybody in and around the courtroom.  I'm sorry

16     about all the confusion at the beginning.

17             And thank you, Madam Registrar, for calling the case.

18             I am made to understand that there is a new member of staff on

19     the side of the Defence, and for that reason I'm going to ask just for

20     the parties to state their appearances for the day, starting with you,

21     Mr. Groome.

22             MR. GROOME:  Good morning, Your Honours.  For the Prosecution, I

23     am Dermot Groome.  I am with Edward Jeremy and we're being assisted today

24     by Ms. Janet Stewart and Ms. Bojana Vuleta.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  And on the Defence side.

Page 1379

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Branko Lukic,

 2     Miodrag Stojanovic, Milos Saljic, Sasa Lukic, and Dan Ivetic will be --

 3     is with us, sorry, but on the wrong place.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 5             Before we call the witness, I believe that the parties have --

 6     well, the Prosecution has an issue to raise, so does the Chamber, but

 7     let's hear you first, Mr. Groome.

 8             MR. GROOME:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 9             Your Honours, yesterday evening we received notice of the

10     documents the Defence intends to put to Mr. van Lynden.  Many of these

11     documents are original B/C/S documents for which there is no English

12     translation in e-court nor has one been provided by other means by the

13     Defence.  Out of the approximately 40 documents, over 30 we are unable to

14     find English translations for.  So prior to the continuation of the

15     cross-examination, the Prosecution request that Mr. Lukic state how he

16     intends to use these documents with the witness, particularly in light of

17     the evidence provided by the witness yesterday that he does not speak

18     Serbo-Croatian.

19             Thank you, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

21             MR. LUKIC:  To be honest with you, Your Honours, I didn't know

22     that we have that many untranslated documents, especially since all of

23     them were acquired through Tribunal's electronic systems and were

24     actually found either on EDS or among our documents.  So I'm really not

25     aware.  We'll see if I'm going to use any of untranslated documents,

Page 1380

 1     because we enumerated much more documents that we are going really to use

 2     with this witness.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's -- that may very well be so, Mr. Lukic,

 4     but, you know, it is your responsibility as a cross-examining counsel to

 5     make sure that whatever documents you are going to use are available in

 6     the official languages of the Tribunal, particularly because you do know

 7     that you opposite number and the witness do not speak Serbo-Croatian.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  I will do my best to avoid using

 9     documents that are not translated.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Thank you very much.  The Chamber

11     appreciates that, Mr. Lukic.

12             May the Chamber may then move into discussing what it has as its

13     own issues.

14             Yesterday in court, the Chamber put on the record its instruction

15     of 30th May 2012 for the Prosecution to review its 92 bis motion for

16     Witness RM057 in light of a number of adjudicated facts.  The Chamber

17     also sought an update from the Prosecution on that matter.  The

18     Prosecution indicated informally that it may be able to provide this

19     update today.

20             Mr. Groome, is the Prosecution in a position to do so?

21             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated]...  hear you.

23             MR. GROOME:  Yesterday evening, Your Honour, I reviewed this

24     issue with respect to RM057.  The bulk of the evidence this witness would

25     be able to provide this Chamber, should his evidence be adduced, is in

Page 1381

 1     fact covered by the Trial Chamber having taken judicial notice of

 2     previously adjudicated facts.

 3             The Prosecution is still in the process of assessing whether this

 4     witness's evidence related to the identification of victims is necessary

 5     to meet our burden with respect to establishing the death of specific

 6     witnesses.  This assessment can only be completed once an expert we have

 7     retained completes her work.  In light of this, the Prosecution will be

 8     filing this week an application to withdraw the applications now pending

 9     before the Chamber with respect to RM057 and will, at the appropriate

10     time in the future, file a notice that we will either not adduce this

11     evidence or the evidence of this witness in reliance on adjudicated facts

12     or should it be necessary an application to adduce that portion of the

13     witness's evidence that is necessary or remains necessary to establish

14     proof of death under Rule 92 bis.  And that will be filed before the end

15     of the week, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, Mr. Groome.

17             Next, again, yesterday, the Chamber asked for an update in

18     relation to MFIs D27 to D37 tendered through Witness Schmitz for which a

19     B/C/S translation is missing.  The Defence submitted it could not

20     approach CLSS for a B/C/S translation.  The Prosecution submitted it may

21     have B/C/S translations of some of these exhibits and that it would

22     further discuss this matter with the Defence.

23             Mr. Groome, are you able to update us on whether you have had any

24     discussions with the Defence and, if so, what the outcome of them are.

25             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, on behalf of the Prosecution,

Page 1382

 1     Ms. Stewart, I believe, met with Mr. Lukic prior to the Court or the

 2     Chamber entering today, and I will defer to my colleague to maybe update

 3     the Chamber on this matter.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  What I can say, Your Honours, is that Ms. Stewart was

 6     surprised, the same way as we are, that we cannot ask translation into

 7     B/C/S from CLSS since their explanation is --

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The Chamber is equally surprised.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.  Since the official languages of this Tribunal

10     are English and French and they don't want to translate into B/C/S.

11     Unless they changed their policy in last two, three weeks.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. -- Mr. Lukic, I'm going to ask you to please

14     advise Mr. Mladic we are in court and that if he does have anything to

15     talk to you about or to anyone of your team, he must do so as softly and

16     quietly as possible and in an unintrusive manner.  Please keep him under

17     control.  Okay.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Groome, I saw you standing up.  I don't know

20     whether you had any contribution to make on this issue.

21             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, simply to observe in the ten years I've

22     been practicing before this Tribunal this is the first I have ever become

23     aware that CLSS would not translate a document.  Perhaps it might be

24     worth the Chamber making inquiry with CLSS to see has there been some

25     misunderstanding.

Page 1383

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Indeed.  That's what Judge Fluegge and I were just

 2     talking about right now as you stood up, because we are equally surprised

 3     by this kind of conduct.

 4             Be that as it may, are there any strong objections from the

 5     Prosecution for admission of these documents.

 6             MR. GROOME:  No, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, I believe you're tending them for

 8     admission.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  I think so.  We did tender them --

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  They are so admitted.

11             MR. LUKIC:  Okay, okay.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

13             We now may call the witness into the courtroom.

14                           [The witness takes the stand]

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning, Mr. van Lynden.

17             THE WITNESS:  Good morning, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I hope you had a restful night yesterday.

19             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  Before I turn you over to Mr. Lukic

21     may the record once again, Madam Registrar, please show that the Chamber

22     continues to sit pursuant to Rule 15 bis for the same reasons as were

23     mentioned yesterday.

24             And secondly to you, Mr. van Lynden, to remind you - I know that

25     you do not need any reminding but I do so.  I'm obliged to do so - that

Page 1384

 1     you're still bound by the declaration made at the beginning of your

 2     testimony to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but the

 3     truth.

 4                           WITNESS:  AERNOUT VAN LYNDEN [Resumed]

 5             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, the witness is yours.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8                           Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic: [Continued]

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Once again, good morning, Mr. van Lynden.

10        A.   Good morning.

11        Q.   Do you have your statement before you?

12        A.   I do.

13        Q.   We left off at paragraph 26 yesterday.

14             You say you had never seen with your own eyes anybody killed by a

15     sniper but you saw civilians die soon after they were shot by a sniper,

16     and you describe a case involving two men and one woman, all dressed in

17     civilian clothing.

18             Could we agree that in the time described here there were a lot

19     of armed people wearing civilian clothes in Sarajevo?

20        A.   There were armed people wearing civilian clothes in Sarajevo in

21     July 1992, but there were also uniformed.  And at that particular scene,

22     what I remember were actually people in police uniforms.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Could we also agree that you do not know the

24     ethnicity of the wounded people or the identity of those who shot them?

25        A.   Ethnicity, you actually mean the religion.

Page 1385

 1        Q.   [In English] Yes.

 2        A.   Because ethnicity, everybody in Bosnia, as far as I am aware, was

 3     a Slav.  No, I don't.  When we -- we -- we followed them to the -- they

 4     were taken -- two men as I recall, were taken to the morgue of the

 5     Kosevo hospital, the academic hospital of Sarajevo, and I do not recall

 6     that they had papers on them identifying who they were.

 7        Q.   [Interpretation] Thank you.  We'll now move to paragraph 29 of

 8     your statement.

 9             You said during the periods I stayed in Pale there was

10     electricity cuts.  There were electricity cuts at time but there was

11     always running water.

12             Pale is a small place so I'd like you to compare the situation in

13     the parts of Sarajevo held by the Serbs regarding electricity, for

14     instance?

15        A.   I didn't stay in the areas of Sarajevo held by the Serbs.  I was

16     brought there only during the day, but I stayed at night in Pale.  These

17     were day visits.  And whether they had electricity or not, I -- I cannot

18     now recall.  I didn't stay there in a house.  And we were taken to

19     military positions there.

20        Q.   So you don't know what the situation was like with water either

21     in those parts of town.

22        A.   During my visits there, I do not recall that those who

23     accompanied me from the Bosnian Serb government, because we were always

24     accompanied, made any references to the lack of water or electricity in

25     those parts of Sarajevo held by the Bosnian Serbs.

Page 1386

 1        Q.   That doesn't mean there was electricity or running water;

 2     correct?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   Now paragraph 30.  You talk about nutrition in war and how it

 5     affects the population.  You talk about food supplies.

 6             You personally were not able to make any inquiries; correct?

 7        A.   No.  We made inquiries with the UNHCR and with the Bosnian

 8     government as to food supplies.  This was in Sarajevo, the parts of

 9     Sarajevo held by the Bosnian government, and we spoke to experts at the

10     academic hospital, also at the former military hospital, people who were

11     experts in -- in nutrition.  I think I mention in my statement also the

12     head of the maternity part of the Kosevo hospital who gave us figures on,

13     for instance, still-born babies and that the babies that were born were

14     of less weight than was normally, and therefore they thought those were

15     the consequences, the direct consequences of the civilian population not

16     having the same nutrition as they had done in peacetime.

17        Q.   What was the situation in the Serbian parts of Sarajevo?

18        A.   Again, we were not in a position to do the same research there.

19     We spent -- specifically the research that I mention here in this

20     paragraph, Your Honours, was done in November, December, 1992.

21             In September 1992 when I worked from Pale, we did ask and we

22     actually saw the distribution of, for instance, money to pensioners, and

23     we filmed this, and also that there were certain shops open for the

24     civilian population.  I would immediately say that the amount of pension

25     that pensioners could get was very small, that their situation was very

Page 1387

 1     difficult but we saw, for instance, in one particular shop in Grbavica

 2     that there were oranges on sale, and this was absolutely not the case in

 3     the other side of the front lines in Sarajevo.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, I do not want to interfere with your

 5     cross-examination, but just for the Chamber's understanding of your

 6     cross-examination, is it your case that there's a distinction to be made

 7     between Serb civilians and non-Serb civilians, or is it your case that

 8     civilians were in want, on the one hand, and at the expense of or because

 9     of the conduct of the armies, either army, whatever the army may be?

10             My question really is:  Does it matter whether they are Serbs, or

11     does it -- or what --

12             MR. LUKIC:  Exactly Your Honour.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What matters is it not that they are civilian.

14             MR. LUKIC:  Our position is that division shouldn't have been

15     done or both parts should be examined and compared.  But obviously it

16     wasn't done at that time.  That's -- that's what we want to point out to

17     Your Honours.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   In the same paragraph as you mentioned, you say you visited the

21     head of the maternity word in the Kosevo hospital.  I'd like to ask you:

22     Did you seek the same information on the Serbian side?  Were you

23     interested at all in the position of the civilian population in the parts

24     of town held by the Army of Republika Srpska?

25        A.   We did.  We asked in Pale.  The -- we were taken to one hospital,

Page 1388

 1     not within Sarajevo, but -- I have to try to recall the name.  I think it

 2     was called Sokolac.  This was a -- had been a mental institution but

 3     there was a new wing built that was turned into a hospital and we were

 4     taken there and we spoke to the doctors there.  But from what we gathered

 5     there, and what we saw, the wounded that were being treated there were

 6     all Bosnian Serb military.

 7        Q.   Precisely.  What about the civilians in Sarajevo?  You did not do

 8     any research into their situation, did you, in the parts of town held by

 9     the Army of Republika Srpska?

10        A.   I have just said that we had requested but that this request was

11     not fulfilled by the authorities in Pale.

12        Q.   I know it's been a long time, but do you know from whom you made

13     this request?  Was it in writing?  Could we locate that letter in your

14     correspondence?  Or did you make a verbal request?

15        A.   We didn't make any requests in writing.  The requests were made

16     in conversations that my field producer and I had with Mr. Karadzic at --

17     at his headquarters in Pale.  We had various meetings -- they were not

18     official interviews, they were just meetings, and there we put our

19     requests as to what we wanted to see and who we wanted to meet and what

20     was possible.  And some of those requests were met, including the

21     interview that we had with Mr. Mladic, and certain requests were not met.

22     And although we were taken into Grbavica, we had asked specifically to

23     look into also the plight of the civilian population, and that was not a

24     request that was met.

25        Q.   Now paragraph 31 of your statement, please.

Page 1389

 1             You say in May 1992:

 2             "On my second or third day in Sarajevo, I went with my cameraman

 3     to what had been the former JNA hospital ..."

 4             Was there any damage to the facade of the hospital when you just

 5     arrived?

 6        A.   As I say in my statement, it was very badly shot up.

 7        Q.   Did you hear it was shot at while it was occupied by members of

 8     the JNA?

 9        A.   No, I did not.

10        Q.   The hospital where you stayed, the former military or

11     State Hospital which is its alternative name, was in the vicinity of the

12     Marsal Tito barracks in Sarajevo; correct?

13        A.   Yes, that's correct.

14        Q.   And it was close to the front line near Grbavica; right?

15        A.   Yes.  I would judge the front lines to have been about 500 metres

16     away.

17        Q.   Now paragraph 33 of your statement:

18             "While I was at the State Hospital, I never saw any evidence that

19     Bosnian snipers fired from there."

20             You do not know whether snipers fired from there when you were

21     not at the hospital, to begin with; right?

22        A.   Well, clearly, I don't know for concern, no.  We did ask

23     repeatedly.  As I mentioned to the Court yesterday, I was responsible

24     also for the welfare of the television crew I brought with me, and

25     bringing them to a location that was also used by the military would

Page 1390

 1     obviously put their lives under a greater threat than they already were

 2     than being in a war zone, and I, at no time, was told that those

 3     buildings were used by snipers of the Bosnian army.  And we also checked

 4     for any kind of evidence in the form of spent cartridges to see, and we

 5     never found any evidence of any sort.

 6        Q.   Is it your evidence today that you inspected the entire hospital

 7     to make sure?  And how often did you do that?

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Where does that come from, Mr. Lukic?

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Sorry, Your Honour, what?  Where does it come from.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Inspection.  The witness has never spoken about

11     inspection.  He says he just checked for casings of cartridges.

12             MR. LUKIC:  I'm asking him how often and where.  Where he

13     checked.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You can ask that question.  But to say, Is it your

15     evidence today that you made inspections, you're suggesting that that is

16     the evidence he has made, he has given.

17             Line 24 of page 12.  "Is it your evidence today that you

18     inspected the entire hospital to make sure?"

19             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That is not the evidence that he has given.

21             MR. LUKIC:  Okay.  I'll --

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Rephrase the question.

23             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

24        Q.   [Interpretation] All right.  Tell us, then, how you checked that

25     hospital building and how often.  Which floors did you inspect; which

Page 1391

 1     wards; who did the inspection?

 2        A.   During the periods that I was in Sarajevo, specifically in 1992,

 3     we were in the hospital practically every single -- from late afternoon

 4     onwards and then throughout the night.

 5             We made our base, as I have testified yesterday, right on the top

 6     floor of the building where there was no one else.  There were -- the

 7     wards were empty.  Indeed, the wards on all the top floors of the

 8     hospital were empty.  They were no longer being used.  Only the lower

 9     floors were in use.

10             On the top floor, of course, we looked around, because we -- we

11     were working on both sides of the building.  We, of course, also entered

12     at casualty every day and saw the situation there.  I didn't go on an

13     inspection.  This is a war zone, and I was working, but we did check the

14     building.  I did check the building on several occasions.  Also, the

15     parts of the building that are not the main building that we were in but

16     other parts sometimes because we wanted to film damage that had been done

17     by shelling.  Sometimes because we were meeting certain doctors as, for

18     instance, the nutritional specialists that we talked about earlier, they

19     were in another part of the building with laboratories there, and we

20     talked to them.  And I always made a point of asking everyone I met and

21     who worked in the building.  And throughout the war, there were Muslims,

22     Catholics and Orthodox working within the former military hospital,

23     whether it had been used for military purposes.  I had to, also, because

24     I was responsible for my crew and had to keep them as safe as possible in

25     that war zone.

Page 1392

 1        Q.   Was there any sniper fire, fire from tanks or mortars from the

 2     Marsal Tito barracks, which was very close to the hospital?

 3        A.   I never witnessed any fire from tanks or mortars.  From the

 4     Marsal Tito barracks?

 5        Q.   [In English] Yes.

 6        A.   I never saw tank fire or mortar fire from the Marsal Tito

 7     barracks.  You're referring to the period after they had been evacuated

 8     by the Bosnian army -- Bosnian Serb army.

 9             I did on one occasion see not sniper fire but machine-gun fire

10     emanating from one window of the Marsal Tito barracks.  This is in -- in

11     reference to the incident that we have actually already talked about in

12     paragraph 26.  And I actually say there, I then heard shots coming from

13     the Marsal Tito barracks and I could see gun smoke from a weapon being

14     fired from that.

15             It was not a sniper.  It was a machine-gun.  And on that

16     occasion, I think it was giving covering fire for those trying to recover

17     the bodies in the street.

18             But back to your original question, no, I did not see tank or

19     mortar fire from the Marsal Tito barracks.

20        Q.   [Interpretation] Did you see a tank firing from behind

21     Marsal Tito barracks, between the barracks and the railway station?

22        A.   No.  And if we had, we would have filmed it.  So that my answer

23     is no.

24        Q.   There is military documentation about that, but I'm not going to

25     show it because you've never seen these documents.

Page 1393

 1             At any rate, we can agree that nobody ever made any reports to

 2     you about the points in the city of Sarajevo where the soldiers of the

 3     Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina fired from.

 4        A.   No.  That's -- we can't agree on that because I was actually

 5     taken to certain front lines by the Bosnian army at certain parts of --

 6     of Sarajevo.  Obviously not everywhere, but I was taken, on certain

 7     occasions, to certain front lines where we did film.  For instance --

 8        Q.   Thank you.  I beg your pardon.  Just a moment, please.  Perhaps I

 9     wasn't clear enough in putting my question.  Perhaps I did not put it

10     properly.

11             You did not receive information, daily information, that would

12     make it possible for you to know where the members of the army in

13     Bosnia-Herzegovina were shooting from.  Do you know all the positions in

14     town from which the members of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina were

15     firing?

16        A.   No.  But you would never know that in any war on either side.  I

17     wouldn't know that from the Bosnian Serb side either.  I wouldn't have

18     known that in Beirut on either side of the green line.  One doesn't get

19     that kind of information from any army.

20        Q.   Precisely.  Thank you.

21             Multiple rocket-launchers are quite easily noticeable.  Did you

22     see any in Sarajevo; and did you see any, say, in Grancevica?  One was

23     there.  Did you see any firing at Serb positions?

24        A.   During my time in Sarajevo, I never saw a multiple

25     rocket-launcher.  Again, if we had done, we would have filmed it.

Page 1394

 1        Q.   While you were in hospital, you say that that is where your crew

 2     was, and you say that you were responsible for them.  You consider that

 3     hospital to be safe, right, that's the explanation you gave us,

 4     especially the upper floors?

 5        A.   No.  It's a building in a war zone, so nowhere is safe.

 6             My principal interest in being there is that we could work as

 7     effectively as possible from that building because it afforded as a view,

 8     as I described yesterday in court.

 9             The other reason why it was for us a relatively comfortable place

10     to work is because it was a hospital.  There was water and electricity

11     there.  I personally believe that working on the top floor, as I think I

12     also explained to the Court yesterday, was, I believe, relatively safe

13     because if that building was going to be targeted, people would aim at

14     the middle rather than at the top floor.

15        Q.   And were any of your crew members ever wounded?  Were you

16     personally wounded in that hospital?

17        A.   None of my crew members nor I were ever wounded in the hospital,

18     no.

19        Q.   Thank God.

20             Also, in paragraph 35.  35.  You said that from the area around

21     Sarajevo multiple rocket-launcher fire came from the top of the mountains

22     around Sarajevo and falling very close to the hospital --

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note, we did not hear the end of

24     the question.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, the interpreters did not hear the end

Page 1395

 1     of the question.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Sorry --

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The interpreters did not hear the end of the

 4     question.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Mm-hm.

 6        Q.   My question was:  The hospital was never hit from these artillery

 7     pieces; right?

 8        A.   Whilst I was in the building, I am not aware of the hospital ever

 9     being hit by multiple rocket fire.  No.  The only thing - and I do

10     mention this - that there was in November 1992 a large explosion and one

11     of the lift shafts was hit.  I can't verify what it was hit by, but

12     others told us that they thought that this was a tank shell.  But I

13     didn't personally see that.  I was in the building.

14        Q.   From these upper floors of the hospital, did you see that the

15     launchers of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina were positioned behind the

16     Marsal Tito barracks and were firing from there for quite a while?

17        A.   Well, you would have to be more precise as to the dates that this

18     occurred.  And, no, again, I think I have already answered this question.

19     No, they didn't.  And if they had while we were there, we would have been

20     able to film it, and we were never able to film something like that.

21             So it didn't occur at least in the periods in Sarajevo when I was

22     there.

23             MR. LUKIC:  Just a second.

24                           [Defence counsel confer]

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

Page 1396

 1        Q.   You said:

 2             "In my opinion, it was probably a tank shell because the local

 3     people who saw it fall on the hospital said that it fell directly which

 4     is characteristic for -- for tank shells."

 5             First of all, if there was a trajectory, you did not see it

 6     yourself.  You heard about it from others; right?

 7        A.   I've already stated that, yes.

 8        Q.   We can also agree that you are not a military expert, although

 9     you did your military service for all of two years.  You were never a

10     member of a tank crew.  So these are two questions:  You are not a

11     military expert; right?  And you were never a member of a tank crew; is

12     that right?

13        A.   Depends how you define military expert.  I spent 23 years going

14     to war zones watching militias, guerillas, and armies fighting wars.  I

15     have never been a member of a tank crew.  But I have been with tanks when

16     they fired, during the Iran-Iraq war and again during the first Gulf War,

17     all of which preceded the war in Bosnia.

18        Q.   Very well.  Let's go back to this now.

19             Do you consider yourself to be a military expert, qualified

20     enough to testify in an expert manner about military matters?

21        A.   I would call myself a war correspondent with a lot of experience

22     in war, but to say that I was a military expert with expertise on every

23     single kind of weaponry, no, I wouldn't.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. van Lynden, have you been called here as an

25     expert witness, as a military expert?

Page 1397

 1             THE WITNESS:  No -- not to my knowledge, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Paragraph 36 now, please.

 5             You say that you crossed the front line.  That was allowed by

 6     both sides, wasn't it, by the Army of Republika Srpska and the

 7     Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 8        A.   It was.

 9        Q.   Could civilians move about that way?

10        A.   By that stage of the war, not as far as I'm aware, and I did not

11     witness that, apart from on one occasion, which is --

12        Q.   You heard about that.  Thank you.

13             Could the Serbs leave Sarajevo?

14        A.   Those Serbs living in Grbavica and the territory held by the

15     Bosnian Serbs, yes.  Those within the part of Sarajevo held by the

16     Bosnians, not immediately, although I am aware of certain exchanges being

17     made, and we, in fact, even filmed one of a Muslim woman crossing over

18     from Grbavica into Sarajevo proper.  And I am aware of others, including

19     certain members of -- who became senior members of Mr. Karadzic's staff

20     who had initially been in Sarajevo and in the June, July, August were

21     able to leave.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry.  Mr. Lukic, may I interrupt here.

23             Mr. van Lynden, at page 19, line 25, you're giving an answer to a

24     question which said, the question was:

25             "Could civilians move about that way?"

Page 1398

 1             And you give an answer by saying:

 2             "By that stage of the war, not as far as I am aware, and I did

 3     not witness that, apart from on one occasion which is --"

 4             And then you were interrupted by Mr. Lukic who said:

 5             "You heard about that.  Thank you. "

 6             And I don't see anything that suggests that you heard anything

 7     from your answer.  So I think, for that reason, I would like to make sure

 8     that you complete your answer.

 9             Can you answer that question, please, fully.

10             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.  What I was going to say was that

11     when in September 1992 we were taken to Grbavica, we actually witnessed

12     and were able to film a Bosnian Muslim woman.  We were told -- didn't

13     actually personally meet her, but she was crossing from Grbavica on a

14     small bridge to the other side, over -- across the river Miljacka into

15     the other side of Sarajevo.  That is one occasion.

16             We were told by the Bosnian Serb soldiers that we were with that

17     this had been arranged.  I imagine that more of such instances did occur

18     but that we were obviously not always there to film them.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What had been arranged, the crossing.

20             THE WITNESS:  That this one women, a quite elderly women as I

21     recall, would be allowed to leave the Bosnian Serb-held territory and

22     cross over into the territory held by the Bosnian government.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That completes your answer.

24             THE WITNESS:  That completes my answer, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

Page 1399

 1             You may proceed, Mr. Lukic.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] My question, once again, probably had not been

 4     put well enough, because this is what I wanted to ask you.

 5             I wanted to ask you whether thousands of Serbs who were in the

 6     territory that was held by the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina were able to

 7     leave that part of the Sarajevo and go to the territory that was held by

 8     the Army of Republika Srpska?

 9        A.   I do not know the precise numbers that were able to leave.  I am

10     aware, as I already said, that certain people, including people who

11     became senior staff members of Mr. Karadzic were able to leave Sarajevo.

12     The precise manner of their leaving, I am not aware of.  Whether they had

13     do this by night or whether there was agreement between the two sides

14     that certain people could leave and other people could enter.  I don't

15     know how many people left.  I am aware that later on in the war quite a

16     lot of the civilians living in Sarajevo tried to get out by crossing the

17     airport, which was then under UN control and getting out of Sarajevo in

18     that manner.  But, again, I don't have figures as to how many people

19     tried or managed that.

20        Q.   You were in Sarajevo for a long time.  Did you hear who it was

21     that was preventing civilians from leaving Sarajevo, regardless of

22     whether these were Serbs or Croats or Muslims?  Were they prevented from

23     doing so by Croats, Serbs, or the Muslim authorities?

24             Do you have any knowledge about that?

25        A.   Well, it was a war zone.  It's a front line of a besieged city.

Page 1400

 1     You can't just cross that on foot.

 2             As I also testified yesterday, just crossing initially in a car,

 3     later on, we had armoured Land Rovers because every time we crossed front

 4     lines we were shot at as well.  It's a basic rule in any war:  You don't

 5     cross front lines.  And for civilians caught up in the situation, it was

 6     obviously very, very difficult.  And no, I'm not -- if -- if there were

 7     certain deals done I am aware of that but the precise nature of the deals

 8     were not revealed to me by either sides in the conflict.

 9        Q.   As you've testified yourself there were periods when there were

10     cease-fires.  Actually, I'm going to be specific on this.

11             Do you know that the Muslim authorities in Sarajevo did not allow

12     civilians to leave the city of Sarajevo, irrespective of their ethnicity?

13        A.   No, I don't know that because -- I know of civilians who were

14     allowed to leave Sarajevo.

15        Q.   You are speaking of a few civilians, but I'm talking about tens

16     of thousands of civilians who wanted to leave Sarajevo and were not

17     allowed to do so.  If you know about it, please tell us about it; if you

18     do not, we're just going to move on.

19        A.   In that case, I would suggest that you move on.

20        Q.   [In English] Thank you.

21             [Interpretation] You were in Srebrenica, too.  Did you hear about

22     that from civilians there, that the authorities from Sarajevo would not

23     allow civilians from Srebrenica to leave Srebrenica?

24        A.   Your Honours, I was in Srebrenica one day, if I'm right in

25     November 1992, with the first UN aid convoy.  We were allowed to enter.

Page 1401

 1     We were there for a number of hours.  We did speak to some of the

 2     civilians there.  These were all people who had fled to Srebrenica

 3     because they had been hounded out of the other towns and villages of

 4     Eastern Bosnia.  They had sought refuge there.  I didn't meet anyone in

 5     Srebrenica who said that the Bosnian authorities wouldn't let them leave.

 6     They were surrounded by what they considered to be their enemies.  And,

 7     therefore, I'm sure that if they could have got out of their situation

 8     living in a besieged enclave with too little food and very, very little

 9     medical supplies at all - there was no hospital in Srebrenica just a

10     clinic - they would have wanted to leave.  But I have never heard, at

11     that stage, from any of them that this was the Bosnian authorities that

12     were stopping them from doing so.

13        Q.   In Bosnia, you hadn't heard of overcrowded UNPROFOR buses and

14     trucks that civilians from Srebrenica were trying to get onto in order to

15     leave Srebrenica.  Also, you did not hear that such convoys, were,

16     afterwards, banned by the Sarajevo authorities.  Also, did you not hear

17     that they had no problem whatsoever with the Serb army and Serb

18     authorities, that that they would allow them to leave Srebrenica.  You

19     never heard of any of that?

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  A number of questions in that, Mr. Lukic.  I'm not

21     quite sure which one you want the witness to answer.

22             Could you take them one by one, please.  Start with the

23     overcrowded UNPROFOR buses.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Did you hear of civilians from Srebrenica being taken out of

Page 1402

 1     Srebrenica by UNPROFOR on trucks and they were so overcrowded that some

 2     persons even died in the process?

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Groome.

 4             MR. GROOME:  Your Honours, is it possible to get a time-frame

 5     about when we are speaking.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

 8             [Interpretation] During 1993, the spring of 1993.

 9             THE WITNESS:  My first comment would be is you asked me if I had

10     been to Srebrenica and I answered that I had went in with the very first

11     UN convoy that was allowed after being held up repeatedly by the Bosnian

12     Serb army into Srebrenica.  There was no case on that occasion of any

13     civilian getting on any truck.  Absolutely not.  The convoy came in.

14     They unloaded.  They only had flour with them, as I recall, and then they

15     drove back to -- back to Zvornik, if I --

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What year was that, Mr. van Lynden?

17             THE WITNESS:  Late 1992, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Not 1993 that the question is about.

19             THE WITNESS:  The first question I was asked by Mr. Lukic was

20     that I had been, myself, to Srebrenica.

21             In relation to the events of 1993 [Realtime transcript read in

22     error "1992"], I was not in Srebrenica in 1993 [Realtime transcript read

23     in error "1992"].  I did manage to go to Gorazde.  I was not in a

24     position because we were ourselves in the field reporting --

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm sorry, Mr. van Lynden.  I'm going to -- the

Page 1403

 1     transcription on the record says:

 2             In relation to 1992.  I was not in Srebrenica in 1992."

 3             I thought I heard something different.

 4             THE WITNESS:  Yes, in 1992, I did enter Srebrenica.  In 1993 I

 5     did not.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  This sentence in relation to 1990 [sic] we were

 7     talking about 1993, right?

 8             THE WITNESS:  1993, yes.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's right.  That's what I'm trying to correct

10     because the record is 1992 when you're talking 1993.

11             So you are saying in relation to 1993, you were not in Srebrenica

12     in 1993?

13             THE WITNESS:  Correct, Your Honour.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   I'm asking you as a war correspondent whether you heard about

16     that and whether you reported on it, if you had heard about it.

17        A.   We did hear about it.  But I heard about it after the fact

18     because I was elsewhere reporting on other matters.

19             As far as I am aware, a television crew and I think a British

20     television crew was in Srebrenica at the time and those pictures were

21     shown.  But, as I said, I was not in a position to watch them because I

22     was in another part of the country where there was no electricity and no

23     television to watch.

24             So we were aware of it but later, at a later stage.

25        Q.   Since you heard that they were leaving, did you also hear that

Page 1404

 1     civilians were forbidden from leaving Srebrenica and that it was the

 2     Muslim authorities in Sarajevo that had forbidden them to do that?

 3        A.   As far as I am aware - but, again, I didn't cover this

 4     personally - civilians were allowed to leave at a certain stage and

 5     whether they were later forbidden to and whom they were forbidden by, I

 6     am not aware.  But I would add here that I was in another enclave,

 7     Gorazde, at just about the same period that you are referring to in 1993,

 8     and there I personally witnessed every single night civilians from within

 9     the Gorazde enclave walking through the Serbs' lines, besieging them to

10     their own lines, and they were allowed to do that.  Most of those

11     civilians did that to get food and then returned the following night.

12     But many, specifically the older and the young, were then taken by the

13     Bosnian army to refugee camps in Central Bosnia.

14             As far as I am aware that was never stopped.  I never saw anyone

15     from the Bosnian authorities stopping them doing that.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated]

17             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I see that the time for the first break

18     is upon us.  Before the Chamber does rise, I would ask -- the next

19     witness is on stand by.  It would be appreciated if the Prosecution could

20     have some indication of how long the examination of this witness is

21     likely to be and when the Chamber would like to have the next witness in

22     the waiting-room ready to take the stand.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, are you able to help us?

24             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  When I was calculating how much

25     time I needed for this witness, my rough calculation was 14 hours.

Page 1405

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] 14 hours.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.  So I used two and a half hours by now.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Which is what the Chamber has sort of guesstimated

 4     as cross-examining period for a witness that was taken for 90 minutes by

 5     the Prosecution.

 6                           [Defence counsel confer]

 7             MR. LUKIC:  We don't have actually strict guidance, as you know,

 8     at least yet.  So before -- half an hour we were supposed to have two and

 9     a half hours of cross-examination.  This gentleman has a lot of videos,

10     and we really cannot cover all this pretty long statement.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sure.  But if -- for 30 minutes, you have two and

12     a half hours, you wouldn't have 14 hours for 90 minutes.

13             MR. LUKIC:  We would have seven and a half hours, but ...

14             I ask for your leave to cross this witness longer than it was

15     supposed to be.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can you ask Mr. Mladic to understand that we are

17     in court.

18             MR. LUKIC:  I'm trying --

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You know, if he doesn't understand, the Chamber,

20     at some stage is going to get him out of the court.  May he please

21     understand that, because we are in court.  We demand order in court,

22     okay?

23             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Please try to tell him that during the break.

25             We're going to take a break, and we will come to decide on this

Page 1406

 1     issue when we come back.

 2             We'll come back at 20 past.

 3             Court adjourned.

 4                           [The witness stands down]

 5                           --- Recess taken at 10.03 a.m.

 6                           --- On resuming at 10.24 a.m.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, if I may, before the witness comes in.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mm-hm.

10             MR. LUKIC:  If we can go to a private session for a while.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

12                           [Private session]

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 1407











11 Pages 1407-1408 redacted. Private session.















Page 1409

 1   (redacted)

 2                           [Open session]

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, Madam Registrar.

 5             Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  At the end of the previous session, Your Honours, you

 7     asked me why do we need more time for cross of this witness.  And, first

 8     of all, this witness was scheduled for hour and a half in direct, apart

 9     from his statement, and, actually, he spend two hours in that direct.

10     And two and a half hours were envisaged if five documents were introduced

11     through the witness, and if the Prosecution spends half an hour leading

12     that witness.

13             We have, with this witness, I -- because we had several lists,

14     but I think that we have around 20 or more exhibits, mostly videos with

15     this witness, introduced through him, and the Prosecution spent two hours

16     leading him.  So we are not even with only our calculations, we are not

17     on seven and a half but at ten hours, since it's four times more than the

18     original ones.  Plus extra evidence introduced through the witness.

19             So I would kindly ask Your Honours to have this in mind when

20     deciding how much time you will allocate to our team to cross-examine

21     this witness.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  First of all, let me say to you I'm not quite sure

23     how you come to ten hours.  If we use the mathematical calculation that

24     you used --

25             MR. LUKIC:  Two hours and four times more than half an hour.

Page 1410

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Two hours, times four; I understand that.  But you

 2     also understand that this is not a hard and fast rule.  This is a case by

 3     case situation.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And you have to look at how the cross-examination

 6     is going.  You spent quite a bit of time yesterday cross-examining this

 7     witness about the war in Afghanistan, the relevance of which the Chamber

 8     did ask you about, and you indicated that you wanted to show the

 9     relationship between the witness and the Mujahedin, which we never saw,

10     okay?  Today, you're asking him questions about whether he is a military

11     expert.  Again, he is not called as a military expert, and I don't know

12     where you're going with those kind of questions.

13             MR. LUKIC:  I just wanted him to say:  No I'm not.  Then he

14     elaborated --

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You know he is not called as a military expert.

16             MR. LUKIC:  But he acts as one.  He wants to explain us many

17     military issues, so I just wanted to establish that he is not, and

18     tomorrow when we address his testimony we have clearly that even he knows

19     he is [Overlapping speakers] ...

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And you can tell him.  If you cross-examine in a

21     focussed manner, you tell him:  You are not an expert -- a military

22     expert, are you not?  And that disposes of the question.  You don't waste

23     time on that, okay?

24             I'm not quite sure whether it is your intention, Mr. Lukic, to go

25     paragraph by paragraph through this lengthy statement, and are you saying

Page 1411

 1     that you are disputing every little paragraph or are you saying there are

 2     issues that you dispute and that you are going to go into and look at.

 3     You've just gone by paragraph by paragraph with this witness.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Because he is addressing many issues, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I understand that he may be addressing many

 6     issues.  But are they all issues that you take issue -- on a paragraph --

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Not all of them, of course.  Not all of them.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You're going through the paragraphs seriatim.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  I don't know how else should I go through them,

10     unless that --

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I thought you would go through the points that you

12     differ with or those points that you would like to elucidate or those

13     points that you dispute.

14             Anyway, the Chamber will give you the next two sessions.

15             MR. LUKIC:  Cross of this witness?

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes.

17             MR. LUKIC:  It's not possible, Your Honour.  Trust me.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You go ahead, and let's see how you go.

19             MR. LUKIC:  Okay.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the witness please be called in.

21                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

22                           [The witness takes the stand]

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before you carry on, Mr. Lukic, something has just

24     been brought to the attention of the Chamber, which I would like to make

25     you aware of.

Page 1412

 1             It's a -- it's -- it's a note written to the Registrar here.  It

 2     says:

 3             "As I'm sure you are already aware, the accused has again made

 4     comments about the witness and even though the witness is coping well

 5     with this, he informed me that he feels it quite inappropriate that a

 6     witness is subjected to comments and accusations by the accused in the

 7     courtroom and he wishes the Chamber to be aware of his feelings on this

 8     matter."

 9             Now, both of Judge Fluegge and I do not understand

10     Serbo-Croatian.  This is a remark that comes from now -- I think this is

11     from Victims and Witness Section.  This is a -- I'm asking you to attend

12     to this, as you understand the language better than we do, and, again,

13     warn your client that he must desist from making comments about the

14     witness, particularly in the courtroom while the case is going on.

15             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

17             You may proceed.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

19        Q.   [Interpretation] Can we look at document 1D137 in e-court,

20     please.

21             And before we get the document, you told us that in early

22     June 1992, the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina was not an army in the

23     proper sense of that word.

24             Can we have an English version of this document, please.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  English version of document is not available in

Page 1413

 1     e-court, Your Honours.  It looks like it's not released.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  We can find it in ...

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  That means that it is not released.  You can open

 4     it, but we cannot.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Maybe that's why we cannot see translations, and

 6     maybe that's why the Prosecution objected.  I don't know.  We loaded

 7     English translations as well.

 8             But I can read from English version, so we can --

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well, but --

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think you just should release the document so

11     that it is available for the Prosecution and the Chamber.

12             MR. LUKIC:  We cannot release.  There are two parts of releasing

13     the documents.

14             First, our Case Manager releases it; and then ITSS, the

15     electronics, the Tribunal electronics system has to release it, then

16     [indiscernible] as well, so only after those two steps we can see --

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You indicated earlier, Mr. Lukic, earlier before

18     the break that you are going to try to keep away from documents that are

19     not translated.  You're going to keep documents that have an English

20     translation.  How do we deal with this?  We can't -- we don't know what

21     is written here.  We've got to have --

22             MR. LUKIC:  We had a lot of problems last week.  On Friday, they

23     promised they will solve the problem.  Obviously they haven't.  It is

24     absolutely not our fault.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sure.  But I'm talking about what you told us this

Page 1414

 1     morning, that you were not going to use documents that have no

 2     translation.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  This one does.  And we have it.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Give us the translation.  Give us the translation.

 5     If it is it there, give it to us.  If we can't see it here, then we don't

 6     have it.  To say it's there, it doesn't help us because we can't access

 7     it.

 8             Yes, Mr. Groome.

 9             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, could I ask that until the technical

10     problem is resolved that Mr. Lukic ask one of his staff to print hard

11     copies of it so that we can follow along in that manner.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  At least that can be done.  I mean that's an

13     obvious step -- solution.

14             MR. LUKIC:  We will send a message to our staff to do

15     photocopy --

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Don't you have hard copies of the document here?

17             MR. LUKIC:  I have it for me.  Your Honour, I did not know that

18     it is not released.  I don't deal with the technical side of this matter.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Lukic, once again, to upload the document is

20     the first step and the second is to release it to the other party, to the

21     opposing party, and to the Chamber.  And it's the responsibility of the

22     party to do that.

23             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.  But when we release it, then the electronic

24     system of the Tribunal run by the Tribunal employees have to release it

25     also, further.

Page 1415

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yeah.  But have you released it?

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Yes we have.  We can see it on our screen.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It's on your screens?

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  But you must take care of this process.  It is

 6     your responsibility to make available the translation to the --

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honours [overlapping speakers] the Tribunal are

 8     not my responsibility.  My responsibility are people from my team, not

 9     people from the Tribunal.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You --

11             MR. LUKIC:  So they haven't done their job.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You are in contact with those who are in charge

13     of these matters, not the Chamber, not the Prosecution.

14             MR. LUKIC:  Exactly.  They promised us that everything would be

15     solved.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The problem here is, Mr. Lukic, that you may very

17     well not be responsible for Tribunal staff but you are responsible for

18     seeing that the evidence you want to present to the Court is available to

19     the Court when you want it to be presented to the Court.  And if you

20     realise that the staff of the Tribunal has not done so, you make sure

21     that they follow up and do so before you call your witness or before you

22     call the document.  So the responsibility is still yours to make sure

23     that when you come into court, you are able to communicate with the

24     Chamber in a language that the Chamber understands, and the official

25     language of the Chamber is either English or French.

Page 1416

 1             MR. LUKIC:  I can move on and return to these documents, if I

 2     have a time.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Please do that, sir.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Just to clarify something.  Yesterday you were saying how

 6     General Mladic took, grabbed you in the face.  Can you tell us if there

 7     is any kind of video record or any photograph of that, please.

 8        A.   No.  As I also mentioned to the Court yesterday, this occurred

 9     while both the cameraman of Sky News and the cameraman of the BBC were in

10     the room where the upper military council, or whatever the name may have

11     been of the Bosnian Serbs, was meeting.  All the other members of that

12     group were already in the room.  That's where the two cameramen and the

13     two producers were.  The person who was with me, the other outsider, if

14     you like, was John Simpson of the BBC.  I am aware that John has actually

15     reported about this incident a year ago, at the time that Mr. Mladic was

16     brought to The Hague.

17        Q.   The name of this John, please?

18        A.   John Simpson.  He's the senior foreign correspondent of the BBC.

19        Q.   Thank you.  And you say the producers were there as well.  Was

20     one of your producers also present?  Which one, if so?

21        A.   What I said was that the producers were with the cameramen in a

22     separate room.  The producer who was working with me at the time was

23     Jaksic Cekic, who was our Belgrade bureau chief at that time.

24        Q.   Thank you.  I'm trying to cut things short now.

25             Paragraph 53, you say:

Page 1417

 1             "In another story, also broadcast in earlier June, I said that I

 2     believed that Sarajevo was being deliberately obliterated because of what

 3     we were seeing."

 4             Has Sarajevo been obliterated?  Can we agree that it was not?

 5        A.   Sarajevo was very severely shelled.  Obliterated in the sense

 6     that it was completely wiped off the map, no, it was not.

 7        Q.   So it was more of a journalistic literally -- literary

 8     expression; is that correct?

 9        A.   It was the expression that came to mind at that time, after I had

10     witnessed those events.

11        Q.   And, again, in the same paragraph, you say:

12             "No particular spot was being targeted; these projectiles were

13     hitting right across the city.  I felt that the whole city was being

14     targeted."

15             And about this, I want to ask you:  Again, you didn't know the

16     disposition of the forces of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina within

17     Sarajevo from where they opened fire at Serb positions; is that correct?

18        A.   At that time I had been taken to a number of front line positions

19     but I was not aware of all the positions of the Bosnian army within

20     Sarajevo, no; indeed, at no point throughout the war.  And that is

21     situation, really, with any armed forces in any conflict.

22        Q.   Thank you.  After the JNA left the Marsal Tito barracks, who

23     moved in?  And did anyone move in?

24        A.   I imagine that, although we didn't actually film them moving in,

25     that members of the Bosnian army moved in.  We were told that military

Page 1418

 1     equipment had been left there, and in one of the stories that was shown

 2     to the Court yesterday, we filmed and showed in that story people running

 3     out of the Marsal Tito barracks after its evacuation.  So those were some

 4     of those people who went in.

 5        Q.   Do you know if any other barracks in Sarajevo and its environs

 6     were transferred or got into the hands of the Bosnian army?

 7        A.   I was never taken to another barracks within Sarajevo by the

 8     Bosnian army.  I am aware that there were other barracks and that those

 9     must have been taken over by the Bosnian army.

10             The manner in which they used them, I don't know, because I did

11     not actually personally witness that.

12        Q.   Thank you.  You were in the hospital, which is very close to the

13     barracks.  Do you know what happened to the soldiers who were guarding

14     that hospital?  Do you know that they were killed, all the members of the

15     JNA who were guarding the army when the hospital was taken over by the

16     Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

17        A.   I am not aware that the hospital was ever taken over by the

18     Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Whilst I was there, it was run by the same

19     people who had been running it before then, and that included

20     Bosnian Serbs and Bosnian Croats, senior surgeons.  The director of the

21     hospital when I arrived was Bakir Nakas.  And I had been told that he was

22     the director previously.  And when I arrived in Sarajevo, there were no

23     guards guarding the hospital and I was not made aware of what -- what you

24     suggest.  The only thing I am aware of is when I arrived in May 1992,

25     there was at least one soldier of the JNA who had been wounded who was

Page 1419

 1     being taken care of in that hospital.  One soldier wounded in the

 2     Marsal Tito barracks.

 3        Q.   And you're saying that the same people worked in the hospital as

 4     they did before the war.  Is that this case everywhere in Bosnia and

 5     Herzegovina because no side wanted to give up their doctors?  The doctors

 6     are needed more in war time.  So did you go to other hospitals and did

 7     you see that the same cadre remained before the war, that people were

 8     simply not leaving?

 9        A.   I think there was a difference between the former military

10     hospital and, for instance, the Kosevo hospital which is actually the

11     main academic hospital of Sarajevo, that their people did leave, doctors.

12     I didn't personally see them leave.  But we were informed that some of

13     the staff that had been there previously had left that hospital.  I'm

14     aware that in other parts of Bosnia that I visited, for instance,

15     Gorazde, doctors were sent in from Sarajevo to man that hospital,

16     including at least two doctors from the former military hospital because

17     I had met them there before, and then encountered them again when I went

18     into Gorazde.

19             The doctors that I met at the one hospital that was run by the

20     Bosnian Serbs that I mentioned earlier this morning, if I remember

21     correctly at Sokolac, they had come from various places, including

22     Sarajevo, and they had clearly made a conscious choice to leave Sarajevo

23     and then work there.

24        Q.   Paragraph 55 of your statement, please.

25             I'd like to ask you:  Were you in Sarajevo when the JNA left the

Page 1420

 1     Marsal Tito barracks?  What date was it?  Can you remember?

 2        A.   I was there.  And we actually filmed the first buses, as I

 3     remember, with soldiers at the end of the afternoon - there was a long

 4     day of negotiation - leaving the barracks.

 5        Q.   Is that the end of May or the beginning of June?

 6        A.   No, it -- the beginning of June.

 7             We had a night with the a lot of artillery -- a lot of shelling.

 8     And the next day was strange for us because it was suddenly completely

 9     silent, and we were actually able to walk along streets where we would

10     not have dared walk the previous day, and the negotiations actually took

11     place by the front gate, and we were able to film that prior to the

12     departure of the buses.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Paragraph 58.  You told us you were not an artillery

14     man.  You had the training in handling the mortar, and during the

15     Desert Storm you spent a lot of time with American artillery units.

16             Could we agree that the American artillery and the Serbian

17     artillery at the time did not act in the same way.  First of all, the

18     Serbs don't have satellites to guide their rockets or missiles or shells,

19     and they don't have the machinery and the precision of fire that the

20     Americans had; correct?

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Groome.

22             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I object to whether this is within the

23     scope of the witness's ability to answer the question.  I'm not sure

24     there's been any basis established for what American military hardware

25     consisted of or Serbian military hardware consists of.

Page 1421

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Then we cannot use paragraph 58 or any of his

 3     estimates and comparisons.  If the Prosecution is willing to strike the

 4     paragraphs that deal with these matters in this statement.  We are happy

 5     to continue without them.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Groome.

 7             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, there is nothing in that

 8     paragraph about satellite capability and satellite guided missiles.  It

 9     is very concrete observations of what the witness saw in his time in Iraq

10     and his time in Bosnia and I submit that he is confident to talk about

11     his own personal observations in the context of his own personal training

12     but he is certainly not within -- that I'm aware of, his scope of

13     knowledge, these broader questions about sophisticated equipment that the

14     Americans may or may not have.

15             MR. LUKIC:  I'll formulate my question according to the statement

16     the Prosecutor just gave.

17        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. van Lynden, you are not qualified enough, as

18     the Prosecutor suggests, to know how the American army operates; correct?

19        A.   I am --

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. --

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Why -- you -- you read paragraph 58 of his

22     statement.

23             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Why don't you stick to that information and ask

25     the witness about the content of his statement?  Now is a very broad

Page 1422

 1     question again, if he knows the American army -- how the American army

 2     operates.  What is that, how the American army operates?  Can you please

 3     focus on what he is giving in his statement and put a precise question to

 4     him.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 6             In his statement the witness says:

 7             "The senior officers commanding these units explained to me then

 8     exactly how such an artillery battery operates and what its purpose is."

 9             If the witness knows precisely what kind of artillery battery is

10     operating, then he should be able to answer exactly how it operates,

11     whether satellites are used, whether laser guidance is used because he

12     knows exactly how the unit operates.  I'm asking him if he knows.  And my

13     question was only about the usage of satellites, lasers, and such.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Lukic, I don't agree with you.  The quotation

15     you have put on the records shows "the senior officers commanding these

16     units explained to me."

17             This is absolutely different from his personal knowledge.  He is

18     testifying about what others told him.  You should be very precise in

19     putting questions to him.

20             MR. LUKIC: [No interpretation]

21        Q.   [Interpretation] What did US commanders explain to you?  How does

22     it work?  What kind of technology were they using?

23        A.   It -- it wasn't about the technology.  It was about the use of

24     where the shells landed in a military context.  They didn't explain the

25     precise technology involved - and I wouldn't really expect military

Page 1423

 1     officers to do that -  but what its function was in any operation, either

 2     defensive or offensive.  And that's what I'm referring to in -- in this

 3     paragraph.  And there they explained about -- which I knew because with

 4     mortars it's the same thing about shells landing too long or too short

 5     when you are trying to find a target until a target is found and then

 6     there is sustained fire.  That sustained fire can be for different

 7     reasons, either to stop an opponent that is attacking you or because you

 8     want to prepare the ground for an attack by your own ground forces.  That

 9     is what I'm referring to in this statement.

10             What I saw and witnessed in early June 1992 in Sarajevo was that

11     the Bosnian Serb army was absolutely capable of directing very sustained

12     and accurate fire on one particular target.  On that occasion, it was the

13     Marsal Tito barracks.  That was sustained fire across two days and they

14     hit that target again and again once they had found their range, which

15     was also shown in -- in the story shown to the Court yesterday.  That is

16     what I'm referring to in the story in this -- in this paragraph.

17        Q.   Did you have the same sort of interviews about the use of

18     artillery weapons with Serb artillery men and commanders?

19        A.   In October and November 1991, I spent a considerable amount of

20     time with the forces of the Yugoslav Army around Vukovar, including quite

21     a lot of time with artillery officers, and we filmed them actually firing

22     those weapons and that -- as I recall, that was very much what they said

23     as well, that they were giving sustained fire on certain parts of Vukovar

24     because their own troops were engaged on the ground in Vukovar.  They

25     were there in conjunction with what those forces were doing on the

Page 1424

 1     ground.

 2        Q.   Do you remember any names of any officer who explained to you how

 3     his unit operates?

 4        A.   No, Mr. Lukic.  I met an awful lot of military officers in the

 5     former Yugoslavia.  To remember all the names, no.

 6        Q.   All right.  Thank you.

 7             What about the terrain in the US where you received the

 8     explanations?  Was it anything like the terrain in Sarajevo?  I don't

 9     think so ...

10        A.   I wasn't giving an explanation of the terrain in the

11     United States.  This was in Saudi Arabia where I met these American

12     units.

13             The terrain is different.  The terrain is different in

14     practically every war zone that I have been in.  But the basis, as it was

15     explained to me and as I have seen it used in various war zones of why

16     you have artillery, that is basically the same.  It can be much more

17     complicated, of course, in mountainous terrain to observe directly the

18     fire as it lands and therefore to make the corrections.  But the basis

19     is -- is, as far as I am aware, the same.

20        Q.   You say that the Serb artillery targeted various points in the

21     city.  You said that it was not the confrontation of front lines that

22     were targeted.  You say it was behind the lines.

23             Is it true that artillery weapons are not kept on front lines,

24     they are kept behind the lines, and that one cannot find a tank on the

25     forward lines or a 120-millimetre mortar on the front line?  They are to

Page 1425

 1     be found behind the lines; is that correct?

 2        A.   Artillery weapons, would, indeed, usually be kept further from

 3     the front line.  Tanks, however, I have absolutely seen close to the

 4     front lines, very, very close; usually behind some kind of a building but

 5     very, very close.  And 120-millimetre mortars or smaller mortars can

 6     absolutely also be found on the front lines.  It depends on the war zone,

 7     but I have seen them.  Artillery, I would agree with you, is usually

 8     further back.

 9        Q.   You spoke to us and showed us film 65 ter 22460E about the

10     Unis towers.  We don't have time to show them again.  But you remember

11     what I'm talking about; right?

12        A.   I do.

13        Q.   You described it as the symbol of modern Sarajevo?

14        A.   That's correct.

15        Q.   As far as I remember, those towers were described as a failed

16     investment.  But I want to ask you:  Is it true that they were not

17     inhabited.  Nobody was living there, and there was no offices inside.

18     Nobody either worked or lived there.  They just stood there uncompleted,

19     empty.

20        A.   I'm not aware of people living in the Unis towers.  I did, as I

21     also testified to the Court yesterday, enter the Unis towers before they

22     were hit and burnt, but I didn't -- I'm not aware whether all the offices

23     were used or were not used.  I am not aware whether it was or was not a

24     failed investment.  The Unis towers seemed to me a symbol of a new

25     building and of a new time in Sarajevo, and that's why I came up with the

Page 1426

 1     phrase they were the symbol of modern Sarajevo.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. van Lynden, when you did enter the towers, did

 3     you notice that they were occupied by any businesses, offices, or

 4     something like that?

 5             THE WITNESS:  By that stage, Your Honour, the war had already

 6     gone on for a while, and businesses had closed down, and, therefore, we

 7     didn't go into offices to check whether people were working there or not.

 8     Apart from that, their position, it was very exposed, as you could see in

 9     the film yesterday, and, therefore, anyone who did have a business in

10     there would, I would imagine, have moved it by the stage when I was in

11     Sarajevo.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  At page 47, line 1, you say:

13             "I did, as I also testified to the Court yesterday, enter the

14     Unis towers before they were hit and burnt."

15             And I ask you the question again:  When you did enter them before

16     they were hit and burnt, did you notice that any business was taking

17     place in there or did you find any offices that simply -- I understand

18     that you say people didn't live there but I want to know whether was this

19     building occupied for business purposes?

20             THE WITNESS:  We didn't actually see that, as I recall.  We did

21     meet certain people there when we arrived at the building and they took

22     us upstairs, but whether there were any businesses still working there,

23     I'm not aware of that, no.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, Mr. van Lynden.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

Page 1427

 1        Q.   Mr. van Lynden, you said you entered one, if I remember well.

 2     Did you notice that in one of those towers the headquarters of the

 3     Territorial Defence was housed, of the Muslim forces?  That it was the

 4     only group of people staying in these buildings?

 5        A.   At that period, the headquarters of the Territorial Defence

 6     forces, as they were, indeed, still called, I'm aware of at a different

 7     location in Sarajevo, and we actually were taken to that location.

 8             The people that I encountered when we went to the Unis towers

 9     included at least two women who I don't think were members of the

10     Territorial Defence forces.  We didn't meet members of the

11     Territorial Defence forces when I went there.

12        Q.   Why do you think that women could not be members of the

13     Territorial Defence?

14        A.   They were not dressed in military uniforms.  They did not carry

15     any kind of weaponry, nor did they tell us that they were members of the

16     Territorial Defence forces.  So I concluded that they were not.  I am not

17     saying that women cannot be in the military.

18        Q.   Just to inform you, we received an answer from the ITSS and they

19     confirmed that all our documents have been released.  They say they are

20     in e-court.  The ITSS can see them, and they have no idea why we don't

21     have them here in the courtroom.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you for the response.  Are we able to see

23     them now on e-court, as and when you are ready to go back to those

24     exhibits?

25             MR. LUKIC:  Try again.  1D137, please.

Page 1428

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  No, Your Honours.  The original document is there

 2     for the translation.  It says:  Denied.  Usually it means that Defence

 3     released document box was not ticked.

 4             Can you double-check if for the translation itself that box is

 5     ticked?  It's not available in ...

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We must continue then without the

 7     documents.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  You may proceed, Mr. Lukic.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.  Thank you, Your Honour.

10             [Interpretation] Let's see if 1D110 is in our system.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Only B/C/S version, Your Honours.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Let us focus now on your meeting with Juka Prazina; paragraph 63

14     [as interpreted] of your statement.

15        A.   Paragraph 63 of the statement I have in front of me refers to my

16     visit to Kula prison.

17        Q.   [In English] 61.  I said 61.  Sorry.

18             [Interpretation] As we know, Juka Prazina was a man who was

19     popular in Sarajevo at the time.  He was actively involved in the

20     fighting.  He was a criminal, as you reported.

21             Did you know, apart from what we've seen, what kind of weaponry

22     Juka Prazina had in his units?

23        A.   Yes, to a degree.  Some of his units of had heavy machine-guns.

24     They also had Heckler & Koch submachine-guns, and those are the two

25     things that immediately come to mind at this moment.

Page 1429

 1        Q.   He drove you around in a regular police vehicle with a police

 2     siren and the rotating light on the roof?

 3        A.   Yes, with a rotating light on the roof and with a siren, indeed.

 4     I don't think it was a regular police vehicle though.

 5        Q.   The footage was from inside, so we can't see it.

 6        A.   American -- it was an American car, as I recall.  I don't think

 7     it was a regular police vehicle.  But, absolutely, with a light, and with

 8     a siren.  It was a pretty strange experience.

 9        Q.   Did you know that he was, in fact, a member of the police force

10     of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

11        A.   That is not something that he told me at that time.  What we were

12     given to understand was that he commanded a separate unit that was linked

13     to the Bosnian army, and in the end, the Bosnian army tried to bring it

14     under their total control, as I understand.  But he didn't tell me that

15     he was a member of the police force, no.  Not that I recall.

16        Q.   Do you know that, later on, he became a member of the

17     Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina and got the rank of general?

18        A.   I am aware that the Bosnian government wanted such units to come

19     under the control of the Bosnian army.  I am not aware that he got the

20     rank of general, but then I never met him again after July 1992, and I

21     imagine that's the period you're referring to.

22        Q.   [In English] Yes.

23             [Interpretation] Do you know that there had been proposals to

24     demilitarise the city of Sarajevo?  And who was against demilitarisation?

25                           [Defence counsel confer]

Page 1430

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   I'm sorry, we have to consult as we go.  I asked you if you were

 3     aware of the demilitarisation of Sarajevo, that there had been proposals

 4     to that effect, whether you knew about them?

 5        A.   I'm aware that throughout much of the war there were negotiations

 6     and discussions led by various mediators about the demilitarisation of

 7     Sarajevo, yes.

 8        Q.   Do you know who opposed it?  Which side?  I will tell you.  For

 9     instance, do you know that the Muslim side opposed the demilitarisation

10     of Sarajevo?

11        A.   I wasn't an actual witness to the negotiations, and, therefore,

12     one gets various versions of those negotiations afterwards from all those

13     involved, and I am aware that the allegation was made that it was the

14     Bosnian government that opposed this.  I'm also aware of allegations that

15     it was the Bosnian Serb government that opposed this.  But I wasn't

16     there.  You would have to ask someone who was actually present at those

17     negotiations.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know who held Mount Igman from the beginning

19     to the end of the war in Bosnia?

20        A.   During the periods that I was in Bosnia, Mount Igman was held by

21     the Bosnian army.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23                           [Defence counsel confer]

24             MR. LUKIC:  Is it time for the -- our break, Your Honour?

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is time, indeed, Mr. Lukic.

Page 1431

 1             Mr. van Lynden, you may stand down.  We'll come back at 20 to

 2     12.00.

 3             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.

 4                           [The witness stands down]

 5                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just -- just before we take the break, for your

 7     information, Mr. Lukic, the Registrar just tells me now that D137 is now

 8     available for when we come back.

 9             We'll take a break at come back at 20 to 12.00.

10             Court adjourned.

11                           --- Recess taken at 11.21 a.m.

12                           --- On resuming at 11.45 a.m.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the witness please be brought into court.

14                           [The witness takes the stand]

15             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

17             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

18        Q.   [Interpretation] Now I would like to ask that we take a look at a

19     video, 1D165.  It is Otes.

20                           [Video-clip played]

21             "... Otes burns.  Four days after the Serbs launched their

22     offensive, Sarajevo's western suburb falls into their hands.  For months

23     the defenders of Sarajevo have tried to break the siege.  Now it's been

24     turned up a notch.  By morning, only small pockets of resistance remain

25     yet the shelling continues unchanged incessant.  Those who can, escape;

Page 1432

 1     those who can't face almost certain death.  For the UN's forces here and

 2     for the politicians who sent them, the latest fighting marks yet another

 3     humiliation, making a mockery of their peace-making efforts.  For a

 4     change they admit as much."

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Mr. van Lynden, at the time of this fighting, you were not in

 7     Otes; isn't that right?

 8        A.   That's correct.  I was in Sarajevo.

 9        Q.   Also, your cameraman was not there, or any other crew member; is

10     that correct?

11        A.   My cameraman and other members of the crew were with me.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Lukic, you should indicate for the record

13     which part of the video was played.  I was -- I took a note it was going

14     from 0:12 seconds to 0:56 seconds.  But I think for the future it is

15     necessary to have it clear on the record which part of the video was

16     played.

17             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, the video that was played, we made.  We

18     created -- actually, we took the whole part of that Otes video and

19     created a new one so this number I gave, 1D165, stands only for this

20     video.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   At the time -- do you know, rather, that at that time a broad

24     offensive was being launched by the Muslim forces against different

25     positions of the Serb army?

Page 1433

 1        A.   Throughout much of the time I was in Sarajevo, I am aware that a

 2     variety of operations were launched by the Bosnian army to try and break

 3     the siege of Sarajevo.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  So you know that actually the Muslim forces were

 5     trying to break through the Serb lines on this occasion as well, and the

 6     Serb forces took Otes in a counter-attack.  Are you aware of that?

 7     Since, in the Karadzic case, you saw the military documents dated the

 8     1st of December, up until the 6th of December that report about attacks

 9     of Muslim forces against Serb portions.

10             Do you remember that?

11        A.   I am aware that Mr. Karadzic showed me various documents which I

12     had never seen before and which I am not the right person to make any

13     comment on.  I cannot judge whether those documents are real or not, and

14     I was not privy to that information at the time when I made that report.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, just so that I can follow, this clip we

17     watched now, you said it's an attack on Otes, and -- and Mr. van Lynden

18     says at the time of this attack he was in Sarajevo.

19             Where is Otes in relation to Sarajevo?

20             MR. LUKIC:  I don't know, Your Honour.  That was presented to us

21     as Otes.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Now why --

23             MR. LUKIC:  I don't know if --

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  How -- how is Mr. van Lynden connected to Otes --

25             Mr. Mladic, what's your problem?  Mr. Mladic says -- can somebody

Page 1434

 1     finds out what he wants, please.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Otes is the western part of Sarajevo.  It's a one --

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Now, Mr. Mladic.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  He cannot hear.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You are either going to talk softly when you do

 6     talk to your team or we will have to do something about that, okay?

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, [Interpretation] As we established with

 8     the witness that he had not been in Otes during the fighting and that

 9     this video-clip has nothing to do with that fighting, we are not going to

10     tender it into evidence.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  No, I understand that.  I'm just wanting to

12     understand why he is being asked about an incident which he didn't

13     witness.  He was in Sarajevo when Otes was under attack.  I'm just trying

14     to find out what is it that you want from him, as the Defence.

15             MR. LUKIC:  The OTP disclosed this video to the Defence, alleging

16     that it is Otes fightings on this day.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

18             MR. LUKIC:  And that he was there.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Oh.  They said he was there, yes, but he says he

20     was not.  Okay.  Thank you so much.

21             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Go ahead.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   In December 1992, you no longer crossed over to the Serb side;

25     right?

Page 1435

 1        A.   No, I did.  I left Sarajevo by car, and we crossed over to the

 2     Serb side and we drove to Belgrade via Pale.

 3        Q.   But you no longer reported from the Serb side in

 4     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 5        A.   Not in December 1992.  I did in February 1994.

 6        Q.   Between December 1992 and February 1994, you no longer reported

 7     from territory that was under the control of the Army of

 8     Republika Srpska; is that correct?

 9        A.   That is correct.

10        Q.   Thank you.  You said that everything that you recorded went to

11     London and was edited there; that is to say, changed.  Was all this

12     editing done in your absence and without your consent?

13        A.   I am not aware that I've ever said that everything was edited in

14     London.  It wasn't edited in London.  The only report that I'm aware of

15     that was edited in London was a half-hour look-back on the year 1992

16     which was voiced by me in Sarajevo and edited in London.  All the other

17     stories were edited by the picture editor who was with me in the field.

18     Apart from during the period in May, June 1992 when, as I've already

19     explained to the Court, the editor together with the satellite dish was

20     in Pale while I was in Sarajevo.

21        Q.   Then I misunderstood.  I do apologise, but you've explained it to

22     us now, and I think that that will do.

23             Can we also agree that in Sarajevo, like anywhere else in any

24     other war zone, opposing forces did not provide you with specific

25     locations where their forces were stationed or specifically where the

Page 1436

 1     front lines were?

 2        A.   On the whole, I would agree.  But we were taken, both by the

 3     Bosnian Serbs to certain front line positions, and by the Bosnian army to

 4     certain front line positions, but they didn't disclose to us a complete

 5     list of, These are our front line positions, and these are where our

 6     forces held.  No, they did not.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Yesterday we briefly touched upon Mount Trebevic.

 8     Have you heard of the 10th Mountain Brigade of the

 9     Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina that was headed by Musan Topalovic, nicknamed

10     Caco?

11        A.   I heard of his name, but I don't recall hearing of the 10th

12     Mountain Brigade, no.

13        Q.   So you did not hear of this 10th Mountain Brigade of the

14     Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina being stationed in Mount Trebevic?

15        A.   No, I did not.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Just briefly, the Green Berets.  I allow for the

17     possibility that you were not informed, but do you allow for the

18     possibility that were not properly informed when you claim that the

19     Green Berets were a figment of the imagination of the Serbs in Bosnia?

20        A.   Throughout my time in the war in Bosnia, I never encountered the

21     Green Berets.

22        Q.   When you say that, do you mean that you never saw people wearing

23     green berets, or that you did not see members of the Green Berets who did

24     not necessarily have to wear green berets on their heads?

25        A.   I realise that they didn't necessarily have to wear green berets

Page 1437

 1     on their heads.  The point is that we asked.  We were told that they

 2     existed.  We asked.  We looked.  I was in various sectors with the

 3     Bosnian army and I did not encounter any unit bearing that name, nor when

 4     we asked did anybody confirm.  Only on the Bosnian Serb side did they say

 5     they were the Green Berets.  I encountered other special units of the

 6     Bosnian army, for instance the Black Swans, but the Green Berets, I did

 7     not encounter.

 8        Q.   I'm not going to dwell on that any longer, but the Green Berets

 9     are not a special unit, like a special unit of the US army would be.  The

10     Green Berets are a name borne by a very broad front of the armed

11     population of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Groome.

13             MR. GROOME:  Sounds to me a bit like Mr. Lukic is beginning to

14     provide evidence himself, which I wonder whether that is appropriate.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, indeed.

16             Mr. Lukic, are you trying to testify?

17             MR. LUKIC:  I'm trying to cut short my examination.  Obviously I

18     will have to stick with the rules.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yeah.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just for the record, I would like to

21     say that the existence of the Green Berets, for instance, was registered

22     in a Judgement of this Tribunal, Celebici, in paragraph 119 of the

23     Trial Judgement.

24             However, we shall move on.

25        Q.   During your stay there, did you ever go to the Evropa Hotel to

Page 1438

 1     Stari Grad, and Zagreb?  Because our information is that the Green Berets

 2     had their headquarters at these hotels.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Did you say, Mr. Lukic, in Zagreb?  And by Zagreb

 4     do you mean Zagreb the town in Croatia?

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Zagreb hotel, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's a hotel.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  It's a hotel.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 9             THE WITNESS:  If my memory serves me correctly, when I arrived in

10     Sarajevo in May 1992, we passed by the Evropa Hotel and it had been

11     burnt.  Precisely what had happened, I do not know.  As far as the other

12     two hotels are concerned, I have no recollection of going to either of

13     them during my stays in Sarajevo.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   The information that we have is from the 20th of April, 1992?

16        A.   I was not in Sarajevo in April 1992.

17        Q.   The Evropa Hotel, is it close to the front line?  If so, how

18     close?  [In English] 100 metres?

19        A.   Oh, I can't -- I mean, we drove past it.  It was pointed out to

20     us, but I -- I can't give a judgement on that.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             [Interpretation] Did you have the opportunity to meet -- or to

23     see reports of the subcommittee for Iran of the US Congress that talks

24     about the smuggling of weapons from Iran to the Muslim government in

25     Sarajevo?

Page 1439

 1        A.   I haven't met any members of Congress, nor have I seen these

 2     reports.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Since you've moved around a lot in diplomatic

 4     circles, I thought that perhaps there was a possibility that you

 5     discussed this as well.

 6             At any meetings that you had with other foreign leaders, did you

 7     ever discuss these reports?

 8        A.   No.  Not that I'm -- no.

 9        Q.   And now paragraph 67.  You talk about reporting from Pale, and

10     you say in order to film and have talks there, it was important to have

11     their co-operation.

12             Did they co-operate at Pale; and when did they co-operate; and

13     when did they not co-operate, according to you?

14        A.   When we first arrived there in May 1992, I moved into Sarajevo

15     almost immediately, but when we came out of Sarajevo in June, we tried

16     for a number of days to work from Pale, and what we found was that every

17     time we basically left the Pension [phoen] Olympic at a check-point half

18     an hour or 40 minutes away, we would be stopped and would be -- not

19     arrested, that is the wrong word, but we would be sent back to Pale.  And

20     as I explained to the Court yesterday that led us to the conviction that

21     I had to have conversations with Mr. Karadzic to see to it that I had his

22     personal co-operation so that I would be able to move around.  We

23     accepted, as is often the case in many war zones, that there would be

24     someone from the Bosnian Serb government with us wherever we went, and

25     that either in the form of a minder, or, as it turned out, in the form of

Page 1440

 1     two military policemen.  We didn't specifically ask for military

 2     policemen but we were then given co-operation in September 1992 and

 3     that's why we returned there and worked there.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Paragraph 74.  I'm trying to skip everything that is

 5     non-essential.

 6             You say the Pale television always broadcast distorted news,

 7     warped news.  "If a death of a Serb was mentioned, they would say that he

 8     had died at the hands of Islamic, mad, fundamentalist crazy hordes."

 9             At that time in Bosnia were there any Mujahedin present; and, if

10     so, how many?  Do you know?

11        A.   By "Mujahedin," are you referring to Afghans?

12        Q.   Any who were not from Bosnia-Herzegovina.

13        A.   Throughout my time in Bosnia, I never encountered - never

14     encountered - foreign fighters of whatever nationality, apart from on one

15     occasion in Grbavica when I encountered a number of Russians and one

16     Japanese gentleman who described himself - and it's his words, not mine -

17     as a Japanese Chetnik.  But I never encountered what you call the

18     Mujahedin.  I am aware of the allegations.  We -- I looked as far as we

19     were able to, given the limitations of any journalist in a war zone, and

20     I never encountered these people, no.

21        Q.   You say that you heard accusations to the effect that they were

22     there.  Did you try to check with the Muslim authorities whether they had

23     any Mujahedin among their own ranks, and, if you asked, what did they

24     tell you?  But then if you didn't ask, you didn't ask.

25        A.   I said that we checked, so, yes, we asked.

Page 1441

 1             Specifically we heard allegations about the 3rd Corps of the

 2     Bosnian army.  I met with the commander of the 3rd Corps on a number of

 3     occasions.  We asked him, and we asked lower officers within the

 4     3rd Corps, and they all denied that that was the case.  And I didn't see

 5     them.  That's ...

 6        Q.   If they did exist, then they didn't tell you the truth, if they

 7     did exist; right?  I mean, it's a hypothetical question.

 8        A.   All a journalist can do is ask the question.  And whether we are

 9     always told the truth or not, I doubt that we were always told the truth

10     by politicians from any side, Mr. Lukic.

11        Q.   [In English] Thank you, Mr. van Lynden.

12             [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we now look at paragraph 82 of

13     your statement.

14             Here you're talking about an artillery position --

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could the document be brought up on the screen.

16     That would be helpful.

17             MR. LUKIC:  The statement of the gentleman?

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The statement, of course.

19             Now it's on the screen.  Thank you.

20             MR. LUKIC:  It's P66.  Paragraph 82.

21        Q.   [Interpretation] You have the hard copy in front of you.  And,

22     here, you say:

23             "I do not believe that the Bosnians had the artillery to fire

24     back at this position."

25             This is an assumption of yours; right?  Since you didn't know

Page 1442

 1     what the Muslims had exactly in their arsenal?

 2        A.   Firstly, we asked whether they had artillery to fire back at such

 3     a position, and we were told they didn't.  Were we told the truth, there

 4     we could argue.  And I never saw fired returned onto that position

 5     throughout the time that I was in Sarajevo.  And we are talking about

 6     this period of 1992.  Whether later in the war the Bosnian army had the

 7     artillery capability within Sarajevo, I'm not aware.  But I'm talking

 8     specifically about this period in the summer of 1992.

 9        Q.   Since we're on that topic, I would now like to look at this

10     document, 1D137, that we tried before.

11             In this document, which is a report of the Sarajevo-Romanija

12     Command of the 8th of June, 1992, one of the offensives is discussed by

13     the Muslim forces.  And it states - let me just count the lines - in

14     line 8 -- actually, line 7 it states:

15             [In English] "Attacks on all other parts of the front were

16     unsuccessful.  Vraca, Vojkovici, Nedzarici, Ilidza, Rajlovac and the

17     firing positions of the corps artillery group were fired on with

18     artillery and mortars."

19             [Interpretation] On the second page of the same document under 7,

20     and it's second page in the English version and it's on the same page in

21     the B/C/S version, under 7 it states:

22             [In English] "In the course of the day, we had eight dead and 62

23     injured.  Two tanks and five APCs were damaged."

24             [Interpretation] And it can be seen from this document that the

25     artillery positions of the Serbian army in early June 1992 received

Page 1443

 1     artillery fire from weapons of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

 2             I allow for the possibility that you didn't know about this, but

 3     I'm asking you:  Can you see on the basis of this document that the

 4     Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina did have artillery weapons which it could

 5     use to fire at Serb positions?

 6        A.   There's no way that I can say anything about this document.  I

 7     have never seen this document before.  I don't know the veracity of this

 8     document.  All I can say is what I personally witnessed while I was in

 9     Sarajevo, and I did not witness artillery fire from Bosnian positions

10     hitting that one particular position throughout the time that I was in

11     Sarajevo.  Whether this document is correct or not, I can't say.  There

12     is no way that I -- I think even can be expected to make a comment about

13     a document of this nature.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Well, this comes from one --

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we tender this document?  1D137.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  How do we do that, Mr. Lukic, when the witness

18     says he has no knowledge of the document?

19             MR. LUKIC:  But it has to do with his testimony, that there were

20     no --

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sure.  But can you tender it through a witness who

22     has knowledge about its provenance and its veracity.  This witness knows

23     nothing about this document.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

Page 1444

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Then we withdrew --

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's fine.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  -- our request.

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] In paragraph 87, if you would be kind enough to

 5     look at that, please, you say that you visited specialist sniper

 6     positions where they had radios and where they said that they were in

 7     touch with observers elsewhere who, via the radio, would tell them about

 8     the acquisition of targets.  Does a sniper need a radio communication to

 9     know if he hit a target or not?

10        A.   I'm simply quoting the people that we met there.  I should add,

11     we didn't ask to be taken to sniper positions.  We were simply taken to

12     front line positions.  We encountered these people, and we asked them

13     questions.  This is what they told us.

14        Q.   Why I'm asking you this, in my opinion, if somebody told you

15     this, then they don't know what a sniper is.  Would you agree with that?

16     A sniper, when he has a hit, he knows that he got a hit --

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Once again, Mr. Lukic, you are now attempting to

18     testify.  Not only testify but you're also giving opinion evidence.

19             Could you ask questions and not tell the witness what your

20     opinions are.

21             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Did you see sniper rifles at Serb positions?  Did they have optic

25     sights?

Page 1445

 1        A.   Yes, we did.  We actually -- the cameraman even took one shot

 2     through the optic sights in one of the stories.  We were showing them.

 3             We didn't -- I must repeat again.  We didn't ask to see that

 4     position.  We were taken there.

 5        Q.   [In English] I understand that.

 6             [Interpretation] As a war correspondent, did you see anywhere

 7     that a sniper would require a radio link with the target that he was

 8     aiming at, in order to know whether he hit the target or not?

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Again, I must ask you a question, Mr. Lukic.

10     Earlier you said with observers.  Now you say with a target.

11             THE WITNESS:  Yeah.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If you look at page 64 --

13             MR. LUKIC:  No.  I thought with the observers --

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  -- line 25, it talks of observers, not targets.

15             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Obviously the target is probably dead by that

17     time.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

20             MR. LUKIC:  This was evidently a badly phrased question.

21        Q.   As a war correspondent, did you ever encounter a situation in

22     which the snipers had to have a radio connection with the observers, in

23     order to know whether they hit the target or not?

24        A.   What we were told was about the acquisition of targets, that

25     there was a certain target that the observers passed that information on

Page 1446

 1     by radio.  That is what we were told in Grbavica, in September 1992.

 2             As I explained to the Court yesterday, I was warned very early on

 3     in my career as a war correspondent that to go with snipers is a

 4     dangerous business that can lead to morally very uncertain ground, and

 5     therefore I never did.  And therefore I have no great experience saying

 6     whether other snipers also used radios and other observers or not.  I am

 7     merely reporting what we encountered in September 1992 in Grbavica and

 8     what these soldiers told us.

 9        Q.   I would just like to clarify one thing.  This, what you have just

10     said now, is not in your statement.  In your statement it states:

11             "I visited specialist sniper positions where they had radios and

12     where they said that they were in touch with observers elsewhere in other

13     positions who, via the radio, would tell them about the acquisition of

14     targets."

15        A.   That is what I encountered.

16        Q.   And today you are telling us that they were supposed to tell them

17     how to determine a target, not whether they had hit a target or not.  So

18     my question was whether a sniper would need an observer to tell them

19     whether they hit a target or not.  But if you cannot help us, that's all

20     right.  It's not really that important.

21        A.   I don't remember that we -- that it was mentioned at all in our

22     conversations about whether the target had been hit.  It was about the

23     acquisition.  They said that they would be informed by radio that there

24     was a certain target for them to shoot at.  I cannot recall in any of

25     those conversations having a conversation as who would know whether the

Page 1447

 1     target had or had not been hit.

 2        Q.   Perhaps there's an error in the translation.  In English it says

 3     acquisition?

 4        A.   Of targets.

 5        Q.   And in the Serbian, it says that they would report back whether

 6     they hit the target or not.

 7             Well, never mind.  Let's go to paragraph 89 of your statement.

 8        A.   I did make the statement in English, Mr. Lukic, not in

 9     Serbo-Croat.

10        Q.   [In English] Yeah, I know.

11             [Interpretation] You say that:

12             "At some of these positions, we were told by the local military

13     commanders that they did not want to have us there and that they did not

14     care what anyone in Pale said about that."

15             Was this customary in the ranks of the Army of Republika Srpska

16     for there to be instances of willfulness and disregard of orders?

17        A.   That would be too broad a statement, and I did not spend enough

18     time with that army to be able to make such a statement.

19             What I'm saying here, what I say in my statement is that we

20     encountered it on a number of occasions that military commanders said,

21     No, we don't want foreign press here.  Without giving, as I recall, any

22     further explanation.

23        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 94, you talk about sniper positions in

24     Grbavica.  These positions that you visited, they were on the

25     confrontation line; is that right?  You also say that in paragraph 100 of

Page 1448

 1     your statement.

 2             Can we confirm that the locations that you visited were on the

 3     line of confrontation?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Can we briefly look at paragraph 128 of your

 6     statement.  We're talking about 23rd of February in Gorazde.

 7             You say that there was a supply line.  Was there a supply line

 8     for the town of Gorazde?  Did that exist?  Which was organised by the

 9     government in Sarajevo.

10        A.   The -- the -- the trail led into the entire enclave of Gorazde.

11     The enclave was bigger than just the town.  It is quite a big enclave, in

12     fact.  What I witnessed was that civilians living in -- within the

13     enclave would come out to an army camp on the other side of the lines.

14     There, they would receive usually 10 kilos of flour, sometimes of pasta

15     and that the following night they would return.

16             There was also a part of the operation that was run by the

17     Bosnian army, which was more organised with pack ponies.  Precisely what

18     these ponies carried, we did not always see.  I saw some with food.  That

19     we were shown.  If they were also carrying anything else, we did not see.

20        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 133, you said that you saw -- or visited

21     some Serb prisoners while in Gorazde.  Did you tape this?

22        A.   We did.

23        Q.   Is that part of the evidence that was tendered through you -- was

24     that something that the Prosecution showed you?

25        A.   As far as I'm aware, the Prosecution has those tapes, yes.

Page 1449

 1        Q.   And this hamlet in the area of Gorazde, this Serb hamlet under

 2     the control of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, was that recorded?

 3        A.   Yes, we did film there.

 4        Q.   And you also gave that material to the OTP; correct?

 5        A.   As far as I'm aware, yes.  But it is not something that I have

 6     looked at recently or discussed with the Prosecution.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Just one second, please.

 8                           [Defence counsel confer]

 9             MR. LUKIC:  I apologise.

10        Q.   [Interpretation] Paragraph 149 of your statement you say that

11     many soldiers were recruits.  They were not professionals.  Were there

12     any professional soldiers in the Army of Republika Srpska?

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Groome.

14             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, could I ask that the witness be asked

15     the basis, does he even have the capacity to answer a question as

16     far-reaching as to whether there were any professional soldiers in the

17     Army of Republika Srpska.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The basis would be paragraph 149 of

20     Mr. van Lynden's statement where he says:

21             "Based on the visits I made to the troops and discussions with

22     the soldiers and officers I made some conclusions about the level of

23     discipline of the Bosnian Serb army."

24             And then he goes on to say that, also, many of the normal

25     soldiers were conscripts.  They were not professionals.

Page 1450

 1             If Mr. van Lynden is not able to comment on this, we accept that.

 2     We don't have any problem with that.

 3             THE WITNESS:  I'm willing, Your Honour, as I said in the

 4     statement, the officers, most of them told us also were professional

 5     officers in the former JNA in the Yugoslav Army.  A lot of the soldiers

 6     told us that they were not professionals and that they had been

 7     conscripted.

 8             That is what I am reporting in this statement.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. van Lynden.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   I would like to ask you the following in relation to that:  The

12     soldiers of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, did they also belong to

13     the JNA, the Yugoslav People's Army?  The officers of the Army of Bosnia

14     and Herzegovina, were they also officers from the Yugoslav People's Army?

15        A.   Some of the officers of the Bosnian army had been officers in the

16     Yugoslav national army.  Atif Dudakovic, Mustafa Hajrulahovic are two

17     names that come to mind.  I also met other officers who had not been

18     professional officers in the Yugoslav army.  Many of the soldiers had,

19     because the Yugoslav army had been an army of conscription, had done

20     their military service.

21        Q.   I am receiving a message.  Well, let's just go back to Gorazde

22     briefly.

23             You say that you filmed these people who were captured.  Were

24     there any captured women in Gorazde?

25        A.   Wherever we went in Bosnia, and whichever side we were with, we

Page 1451

 1     asked to visit the prisons.  On the Bosnian Serb side, we were taken to

 2     Kula in September 1992.  And in both during my visit in Gorazde in

 3     February 1993 and my visit to Bihac in November 1994 we were given access

 4     to prisoners held by the Bosnian army.

 5             I should add one thing here for the Court.  On all these

 6     occasions, we asked to speak separately to the prisoners without their

 7     guards being present, and on all three occasions that was allowed, both

 8     on the Bosnian Serb side and on the Bosnian side.  On all occasions we

 9     made a list or asked the prisoners to make a list for us of all those

10     that they knew that were held there.  Those lists we later passed on to

11     the International Committee of the Red Cross.  It's not really a part of

12     the journalism that we do, but it is part of what we think is our duty

13     also in war zone.

14             The only ones that I met in the two Bosnian army prisons that I

15     visited in Gorazde and Bihac, they all said that they were soldiers, and

16     they were all male.

17        Q.   I would now like to look at paragraph 152 where you talk about

18     weekend soldiers.

19             In paragraph 152, you say that:

20             "I heard stories that men were coming from Serbia on weekends

21     purely for the fun of shooting into Sarajevo.  This information was also

22     common knowledge in Belgrade amongst international and Serbian

23     journalists."

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Slow down, Mr. Lukic.  The interpreter is trying

25     desperately to keep pace with you.

Page 1452

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   So we are talking about international and Serbian journalists in

 3     Belgrade.  Which journalists gave you this information?  Do you recall

 4     their names perhaps?

 5        A.   This was generally talked about in Belgrade.  I don't have any

 6     specific names who told us about this.  I mean, this was -- journalists

 7     meet each other when they are away from the front lines.  I didn't in

 8     Sarajevo, but when I was in Belgrade we would also meet a lot of Serb

 9     journalists.  During 1991 we had been based at Belgrade television.  I

10     knew a lot of people there.  During various meetings, this is what we

11     were told.

12        Q.   As a military correspondent - I have to go back to Gorazde

13     briefly once more - did you hear that the sister of --

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  How long are you going to be on that point?

15             MR. LUKIC:  One minute.

16        Q.   [Interpretation] Did you hear that the sister of General Baucal

17     was -- general of the JNA, Dimitri Baucal, was captured by members of the

18     Bosnian army or the Muslim side?  She lived in Gorazde actually.

19        A.   I cannot recall being told of that or being aware of that.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's past 20 to, Mr. Lukic.  Would that be a

22     convenient time?

23             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.  If you allow me more time to conclude my

24     cross-examination.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If I -- if I don't, then you don't want us to take

Page 1453

 1     a break.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We will take a break.  Mr. van Lynden, you can

 4     stand down.  We'll come back at 1.00.

 5                           [The witness stands down]

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Groome, are you going to need any time for

 7     re-examination; and, if so, how much.

 8             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.  Approximately 10 minutes.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Thank you so much.

10             We'll take a break and come back at 1.00.

11             Court adjourned.

12                           --- Recess taken at 12.44 p.m.

13                           --- On resuming at 1.04 p.m.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.  I beg your pardon.

15             May the witness please be brought in.

16             Yes, Mr. Groome.

17             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, may I take these few moments to

18     introduce the Chamber to Ms. Lorna Bolton, another member of the

19     Prosecution team who will be leading the evidence of the next witness.

20     She has entered the courtroom.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Welcome, Madam Bolton.

22             MS. BOLTON:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.

23                           [The witness takes the stand]

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

25             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

Page 1454

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, do you think you can wrap up by half

 3     past?

 4             MR. LUKIC:  By.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Half past.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  I will do my best.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Please do.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Mr. van Lynden, it is not going to take very long.  In

10     paragraph 156 you talk about arming, and you say that:

11             "There was a definite predominance on the Bosnian Serb side.

12     This is true for all the weaponry, including, sniping and infantry

13     weapons."

14             In your view, does this go for 1994 or 1995 as well or did the

15     balance change?  Was it then in the favour -- in favour of the

16     Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

17        A.   No.  I would say that where there was balance in the favour of

18     the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina was in terms of manpower.  Numbers of

19     soldiers that they could deploy in the field.

20             As far as I personally witnessed, in 1994 and 1995, prior to the

21     Croatian Storm operation, the Bosnian army did not have the heavy

22     weaponry, could not match the heavy weaponry of the Bosnian Serb army.

23             After August -- the August offensive by the Croats, at least as

24     far as the 5th Corps was concerned, there the weaponry had changed.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The 5th Corps of which army?

Page 1455

 1             THE WITNESS:  The Bosnian army, Your Honour.  My apologies.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Thank you.  We have part of your statement that has to do with

 4     cease-fires and a meeting with General Mladic.  As a military

 5     correspondent, a war correspondent in Sarajevo, did you come to learn

 6     that the Serb side was making offers non-stop for a lasting cease-fires

 7     and cessation of hostilities?

 8        A.   That is not something that Mr. Mladic told me during the

 9     interview.  I am aware, as I have said previously today to this Court,

10     that there were ongoing negotiations mediated by various parties

11     throughout the war, trying to bring the war to an end.  I was not privy

12     to those meetings myself.  No journalist was.  And each side has its own

13     view of what happened at those meetings and what it offered and what its

14     opponents offered.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Now paragraph 162 of your statement.  This is what

16     you say there:

17             "In Sarajevo, soldiers were generally positioned on the front

18     lines.  I am not aware of any major barracks.  All soldiers in Sarajevo

19     slept at their own homes."

20             Is that correct?  Or the vast that majority, at any rate.

21        A.   Where do I say that?  Or is that your question?

22        Q.   [In English] That's my question, the last part.

23             [Interpretation] Your statement is:

24             "In Sarajevo, soldiers were generally positioned on the front

25     lines.  I am not aware of any major barracks."

Page 1456

 1             Is it correct that soldiers from the front line went to spend the

 2     night at their own homes in different parts of Sarajevo?  I'm referring

 3     to soldiers of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 4        A.   As far as I'm aware, the soldiers who were on the front lines

 5     were there for a period of time and then would be given a period of time

 6     off.  And then, I imagine, that they did, indeed, go back to their

 7     apartments.  But some -- as I also say in this paragraph, some were

 8     refugees from outside of Sarajevo, and precisely where they lived, I

 9     don't know.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Paragraph 164, you say:

11             "The Bosnian Serbs often claimed to me that the Bosnian forces

12     had fired at their own people.  For instance, after the bread line

13     shelling in May 1992."

14             You say further on:

15             "I did not accept these claims?"

16             You, yourself, decide which information and which claim you would

17     accept and which one would you not accept; isn't that correct?

18        A.   No.  I was never shown evidence, which is also what I say in this

19     paragraph.  I was never -- I never saw any evidence that proved those

20     allegations.

21        Q.   Thank you.  You heard of the killing of General Sefer Halilovic's

22     wife and her brother; right?

23        A.   I have heard of the incident but I was not in Sarajevo at the

24     time.

25        Q.   Sefer Halilovic, at the time, was the commander-in-chief of the

Page 1457

 1     Muslim forces; isn't that right?

 2        A.   As far as I'm aware, yes.

 3        Q.   His wife and her brother were killed in an area that was under

 4     the control of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that correct?

 5        A.   As far as I'm aware, yes.

 6        Q.   They were killed in an explosion, and it was established that

 7     they had not been killed by the Serbs but, rather, by someone who

 8     belonged to the Muslim people; is that correct?

 9        A.   When I heard about this incident, that is what I was, indeed,

10     told:  They had not been killed by the Serbs.

11        Q.   Just briefly.  We are not going to show it, but in 65 ter 22457B,

12     that is a video, you speak about the separatist Serb government.  At the

13     time, who was actually a separatist?  The Muslims or the Serbs, in your

14     view?

15        A.   Are you showing me the video or ...

16        Q.   [In English] No.  I told you that I'm not going to show you the

17     video.

18        A.   Oh, sorry.  I beg your pardon.  My personal view was that there

19     was a legitimate government in Sarajevo.

20        Q.   Okay.  [Interpretation] Now I'd like to show you a video,

21     65 ter 22458B.  Three minutes long.

22                           [Video-clip played]

23              "... all of Sarajevo.  The Dobrinja corridor a few hundred yards

24     of road lined by anti-tank traps, cars that haven't made it, that leads

25     to Sarajevo's otherwise surrounded western suburb.  A place of newly

Page 1458

 1     built apartment blocks, where some 30.000 Muslims, Croats and Serbs live

 2     but every day some also die.

 3             "Mohammed Arapovic and Mustafa Sipovac caught minutes earlier by

 4     a solitary mortar bomb outside the shelter of their homes which they left

 5     for a rare, if fatal, breath of fresh air.  In a warehouse transformed

 6     into Dobrinja's solitary hospital, they struggle to keep the two elderly

 7     civilians alive.  And unequal struggle that is lost after they are

 8     bundled into makeshift ambulances for the drive into Sarajevo proper.  In

 9     the 24 hours we stayed in Dobrinja, eight others would suffer a similar

10     fate.  Yet all, those we met, called it a quiet day.

11             "Even so, with the front lines never far away, few wonder ..."

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   This man in black uniform, do you know which unit he belonged to?

14        A.   He was under the command of Juka Prazina.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, at some stage I would like you to go

17     back to the beginning of this clip, because the transcript -- I'd like to

18     get it where it talks about 30.000 Muslims, Croats, da da da.  I would

19     like to get that part on the record because I think there's a word

20     missing there.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And we should put on the record that you stopped

22     the video at 10 minutes, 20 seconds, so that we know which person was

23     [indiscernible] in this still.  And you started with it at 9 minutes, 7

24     seconds.  You should put it on the record.

25             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 1459

 1             [Interpretation] The next clip we should stop at 10 minutes, 24

 2     seconds.

 3                           [Video-clip played]

 4             "Close to cover --"

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   These armed men in civilian clothes, who did they belong to?  You

 7     know.

 8        A.   That I can't remember.  I mean, we were -- this is a story I did

 9     from the western suburb of Dobrinja which was specifically build for the

10     1984 Sarajevo Winter Olympics.  We were taken there by -- in two cars by

11     people of -- under the command of Juka Prazina.  As I recall, the man on

12     the left in -- in the shot where you've stopped it was one of Prazina's

13     people there living in Dobrinja.  We met others in Dobrinja who were not

14     with Juka Prazina, and these three -- I don't know.  I can't remember.

15        Q.   Thank you.  10.44 that is the point where we should stop again.

16                           [Video-clip played]

17              "It's a war now essentially fought by snipers, leaving some

18     unmoved, eyes barely willing to move from a book offering temporary

19     distraction.  Yet others tense, eyes fixed on Serb positions just

20     20 metres away."

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   As we heard, the separation lines here were about 20 metres away

23     from one another; isn't that right?

24        A.   That's what we were told.

25        Q.   This heavy machine-gun that we see here on the screen, that is

Page 1460

 1     also from these positions in Dobrinja; isn't that right?

 2        A.   That was in Dobrinja, yes.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  This is a weapon that belonged to the Muslim forces;

 4     right?

 5        A.   The Bosnian army.  This was not a -- the soldier manning this was

 6     not one of Juka Prazina's people and came under the -- the Bosnian army.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Let us go on.

 8                           [Video-clip played]

 9              "So close, that in the home converted into machine-gun

10     emplacements, the militia men talk in whispers.  The siege of Dobrinje is

11     now in its third month and no one here expects it to end soon.  Instead

12     both the civilians and the fighters have accustomed themselves to the

13     idea on living through a long, slow war of attrition.

14             "In the home of Dobrinja's commander they watch the amateur video

15     of the event that opened the Dobrinja corridor, their life-line to the

16     outside world."

17             MR. LUKIC:

18        Q.   So the members of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina engaged in

19     combat and offensive activity they broke the encirclement around

20     Dobrinja, right?

21        A.   This was prior to my visit, Your Honours.  This is Mojmilo hill

22     and that made it possible for that one track to be opened through which I

23     was driven in to Dobrinja.  I should add that other cars tried it that

24     day and all those other cars were hit by rifle fire.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  For the record we stopped at 11:14.

Page 1461

 1                           [Video-clip played]

 2              "van Lynden:  It happened three weeks ago when the Serb armoured

 3     cars on Mojmilo hill were destroyed and the Serb noose cut at one vital

 4     point.

 5             "Dobrinja can never survive under these conditions for as long as

 6     we want.

 7             "If there is Western military intervention, this war will be

 8     finished in a short time, without it this war will last longer.

 9             "van Lynden:  For the habitants of Dobrinja intervention of a

10     sort of tantalizingly near.  Much of the airport the UN now controls,

11     just a hundred yards away.  But while the men can watch the convoys of

12     aid snake lazily across the runway, none has yet entered Dobrinja, the

13     one place in Sarajevo where medicine and food are needed most.  Where

14     even burying the dead ..."

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Off point is -- 12 minutes 4 seconds.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

17        Q.   [Interpretation] Here, you reported about persons who were not

18     buried properly due to the war operations.  There are crosses on the

19     graves.  You know that the Muslims do not mark their graves by crosses;

20     right?

21        A.   I am aware of that.  I'm also aware, as I said at the beginning

22     of this story, there were Serbs, Croats and Muslims living in Dobrinja.

23                           [Video-clip played]

24              "... had to be done softly in twilight and

25      by the roadside."

Page 1462

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   We see here that all the graves are marked by crosses.  That is

 3     at least what we see on your footage.  12:09 would be the reference.

 4             Do you know at all who were these people were and how they lost

 5     their lives?  I assume that you do not know?

 6        A.   Well, we asked, of course, who they were.  We were told these

 7     were people who had died in the fighting that took place in Dobrinja, and

 8     that it had not been able to, given the sick circumstances there, bury

 9     them anywhere else but at night by the roadside.  That is what we show

10     here.

11             Do I have the names of all these people, no I did not.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. van Lynden, if you do know, do you know how

13     the Croats mark their graves?

14             THE WITNESS:  In the same manner as any other Christian because

15     they are Catholic.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. van Lynden, may I ask an additional question.

18             Do you know that all the graves in that area were marked by

19     crosses?

20             THE WITNESS:  In my recollection, that was not the case.  It may

21     be that in this short section in the video that that's the case.  But,

22     no, I remember other graves that were not marked at all.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Just one second.

25                           [Defence counsel confer]

Page 1463

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   In 2246A [as interpreted] that the Prosecutor showed you during

 3     the direct examination, you say -- let me remind you of this because we

 4     don't have time to play the video.

 5             You talk about officer's families and officers, about a thousand

 6     of them, who are detained in the Marsal Tito barracks and you say,

 7     concerning the barracks, that [In English] "Prime sniper route."

 8             [Interpretation] What did you mean by that?  Who was it that was

 9     targeting the barracks?

10        A.   Can I please see a written transcript with.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And is it 2246A or is it 22460A.

12             MR. LUKIC:  22460A.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

14             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  While you're waiting, Mr. Lukic, can I just ask a

16     question.  What do you intend to do with 22458B?

17             MR. LUKIC:  We don't intend to ask for admission, Your Honour.

18     We just wanted to refresh this gentleman's memory.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Do you know who was it that fired at the Marsal Tito barracks?

22        A.   Firstly, I don't think I ever said that there were only officers

23     and their families in the Marsal Tito barracks about a thousand of them.

24     I think I was talking about a thousand soldiers, including officers.

25        Q.   [In English] Yes, yes.

Page 1464

 1        A.   That's the first point.

 2        Q.   Yes.

 3        A.   What I was saying was that around the Marsal Tito barracks there

 4     was shooting going on from both sides.

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] It is only Muslims that are firing at the

 6     barracks; isn't that right?

 7        A.   It would be the Bosnian army that would be fighting -- shooting

 8     at the barracks, but there was also a fire emanating from the barracks.

 9     The main road in Sarajevo goes past the barracks and was at that time

10     unusable.  It was too dangerous to go there.

11        Q.   I think that would be it.  Thank you for having answered my

12     questions.

13             MR. LUKIC:  I think I complied with your order, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, Mr. Lukic.  The Chamber

15     appreciates that.

16             Mr. Groome, re-examination?

17             MR. GROOME:  Thank you, Your Honour.

18                           Re-examination by Mr. Groome:

19        Q.   Mr. van Lynden, today at transcript page 13 and 14 you said that

20     the top floors of the State Hospital where you were working at the time

21     were not being used while you were working there.  My question to you is:

22     Do you know why those top floors were not in use?

23        A.   They were not being used because the people running the hospital

24     did not believe it was safe to put patients there.  Therefore all the

25     patients had been moved to lower floors which were deemed safe.

Page 1465

 1        Q.   Do you recall how many of the floors were not in use?  If you

 2     don't, that's fine.

 3        A.   I -- as -- to the best that I can remember, it was the -- the

 4     ground floor, the first, second, third floor that were used but no floors

 5     above that.  Although doctors did still use some of their offices on

 6     higher floors.

 7        Q.   And why was it -- or do you know why it was that those lower

 8     floors were considered safe?

 9        A.   Because they could not be directly hit.

10        Q.   Now in the English language the word "shot" can be used in

11     different ways and I want to ask you to clarify your use of it today just

12     to be sure that there is no misapprehension of your evidence here.

13             Today you said the following :

14             "The cameraman even took one shot through the optic sites in one

15     of the stories."

16             Did you mean a camera shot?

17        A.   Yes, I meant a camera shot.  It's an unfortunate bit of

18     television language that we ...

19        Q.   Just -- I just wanted to make sure that there was no confusion

20     about that.

21             Now, during your examination today at temporary transcript

22     page 45, Mr. Lukic asked you a number of questions regarding the use of

23     artillery and mortars in warfare.  In response to one of his questions

24     you said -- and the word "it," I believe, is referring to artillery:

25             "I have seen it used in various war zones of why you have

Page 1466

 1     artillery that is basically the same.  It can be much more complicated,

 2     of course, in mountainous terrain to observe directly the fire as it

 3     lands and therefore to make corrections."

 4             Can I ask you to explain what you meant by "it can be more

 5     complicated in mountainous terrain"?

 6        A.   Simply that for an artillery unit there is nearly always an

 7     observer unit as well to monitor whether the fire is accurately coming

 8     down on a certain target.  In mountainous terrain it may be more

 9     difficult for those observers to be able to see that.

10        Q.   Now, in paragraphs 87 to 90 of P66 which is your statement, you

11     describe your visit to several Bosnian Serb positions around Sarajevo.

12     Did this include visits to elevated positions in the hills and mountains

13     around Sarajevo?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Are you able to tell us from your own observations whether there

16     was a direct line of sight from these positions to the city below?

17        A.   Yes, there was.

18        Q.   Today at transcript 48 you were asked about the Unis towers.  P74

19     in evidence is your report and which includes videos in which one of the

20     towers is seen visibly burning.  Are you able to tell us whether the

21     particular tower we see burning in the video is a tower you and your team

22     visited?

23        A.   As far as I recall, yes, it was that tower.

24        Q.   Today at temporary transcript page T62, 63, Mr. Lukic asked you

25     about your evidence that the Bosnian government forces did not have the

Page 1467

 1     ability to fire back at the position which Mladic brought you to.

 2             My question to you is the following:  We can see for ourselves

 3     from your report now in evidence as P76 the demeanour of the people at

 4     that location, including yourself.  Did you observe Mladic or any of the

 5     VRS personnel take precautions against incoming fire at the time you were

 6     at that location?

 7        A.   Absolutely not.

 8        Q.   Did you see anything that indicated to you that they felt

 9     vulnerable to incoming fire?

10        A.   No.  Nor were we warned that there could be incoming fire.

11        Q.   Now, Mr. van Lynden, during Mr. Lukic's cross-examination of you

12     yesterday and today, he explored the possibility that you may have

13     possessed a bias, that it may have impacted your reporting.  Among the

14     exhibits that the Prosecution will tender are three reports that you

15     filed from Bosnian Serb-held areas of Sarajevo.  One report, 65

16     ter 22457F is referred to in paragraph 101 of your statement.  In another

17     report, 65 ter 22457G referred to in paragraph 1413 of your statement,

18     you report from a funeral of 28 VRS soldiers in Vlasenica and note the

19     gruesome nature of the killing or death of those soldiers.  Should the

20     Chamber admit these videos they will be able to view them themselves.

21     However, I would like to show you one of your reports from the

22     Bosnian Serb side of the confrontation lines in Sarajevo, a report you

23     filed on the living conditions of civilians in Grbavica and which you

24     refer to in paragraphs 101 and 104 of your statement?

25             MR. GROOME:  Your Honours, at this time I would now ask

Page 1468

 1     Ms. Stewart to play 65 ter 22457C and I will ask her to play the entire

 2     clip.

 3                           [Video-clip played]

 4             "Reporter:  The Serb position is a commanding one.  They have the

 5     whole of Sarajevo in their sights with tree-tops shorn to provide better

 6     fields of fire.  The slopes are practically unsurmountable to direct

 7     attack and the lines of sturdy log cabins, some already being prepared

 8     for winter have an air of permanence.  For the moment, the Serb guardians

 9     of these hilltop strongholds appear relaxed.  They are adamant that

10     anything won in the battle cannot be surrendered in negotiation.

11             "Unidentified soldier:  Giving any territory away would be a

12     great treason against the Serb people and a Serb capitulation.

13             "Reporter:  In Grbavica, the only district of central Sarajevo

14     the Serbs control, that opinion was shared by all the soldiers.  Even if

15     many of these elderly civilian congregating to collect their pensions are

16     Muslims.  The war, having halted earlier, now they receive allotted share

17     for April and May.  It's meager, between three and eight pounds per

18     person, which cannot buy a lot in an adjacent shop, plentiful by Sarajevo

19     standards.  Then, the calm of the morning is shattered by a sniper's

20     bullet.  A woman is hit and a 20-millimetre gun of an APC fires a

21     concerted riposte.  The threat of the snipers forces any approach to the

22     front lines to be made crouched and at speed.  Here, the guns are seldom

23     silent.

24             "Neither the London Conference with all its stated promises and

25     principles, nor the continuing talks in Geneva would appear to have made

Page 1469

 1     one jot of difference here.  The shooting and the siege continue, just as

 2     they have done for the past five months.  Much of the front line that

 3     divides Grbavica from the rest of Sarajevo is a natural one:  The river

 4     Miljacka, its bridges, watch continually from apartment block machine-gun

 5     nest, not all of them real.  One gun manned by an obese decoy.  Here, as

 6     on the hillside, the mood is an uncompromising one.

 7             "We are against it, we are against any concessions.

 8             "It could have been resolved politically before but not anymore.

 9     Now -- only militarily until victory.

10             "Reporter:  Yet, at rare times, even here, there is a compassion.

11     A solitary Muslim woman allowed to cross the river in safety.  Freeing

12     her from Serb control, leaving her in a city besieged by them.

13     Aernout van Lynden, Sky News, Sarajevo."

14             MR. GROOME:

15        Q.   Mr. van Lynden, to be clear, this report was filmed in

16     Serb-controlled territory in the Grbavica area; is that correct?

17        A.   That's correct.

18        Q.   And again, so the record is clear, when you report that a woman

19     in Grbavica was hit by sniper fire, was this woman also a civilian in the

20     Serb-held part of Grbavica?

21        A.   That's correct.

22        Q.   And, lastly, the elderly woman we see crossing the bridge, was

23     this the same elderly woman that you referred to in your testimony

24     earlier today?

25        A.   It is.

Page 1470

 1        Q.   Mr. van Lynden, you have given evidence about those occasions,

 2     several occasions, when you sought but were refused access to

 3     Serb-controlled areas.  Had you been given access, are you able to say

 4     whether it would have been likely that you would have filed additional

 5     reports?

 6        A.   Yes, of course.

 7        Q.   Yesterday Mr. Lukic suggested to you that Rupert Murdoch and his

 8     company may have influenced your reporting.

 9             Am I correct that you taped the narrative of your reports and --

10     and the video excerpts that we saw yesterday, and that these recorded

11     narratives and the video footage was then sent to the editor who put the

12     narrative of your voice plus the video together.

13             Is that a correct understanding of how it worked?

14        A.   Usually how it works is that I will work directly with the

15     editor.  When he is putting the report together I will be sitting next to

16     him.  In that one period between would work with the director I in that

17     one period between the end of May and early June 1992, then I put my

18     voice down on tape and there was a separate tape with the pictures and

19     then it was the editor that did it in Pale.  But at nearly every other

20     occasion I would always be sitting next to the picture editor when the

21     report is being put together.

22        Q.   Was there ever an occasion when your taped narrative of your

23     report that you filed was ever edited by anyone in Sky News at any

24     location in any way that you believed altered the meaning of the report

25     as you filed it?

Page 1471

 1        A.   Not that I am aware of, no.

 2        Q.   Would you have tolerated any attempt to change or influence the

 3     reports that you filed?

 4        A.   I suspect I would not.

 5        Q.   And let me put to you directly what Mr. Lukic has suggested to

 6     you:  Were you biased in your reporting of the events in Bosnia?

 7        A.   I do not believe that I was.

 8        Q.   Did you endeavor to be impartial?

 9        A.   Absolutely, that is our job.

10        Q.   Thank you, sir.

11             MR. GROOME:  I have no further questions, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Groome.

13             Mr. van Lynden, that brings us to the end of your testimony.  The

14     Chamber takes this opportunity to thank you very much for coming to the

15     Tribunal to testify.  You are now excused.  You may stand down and travel

16     well back home.

17             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

19                           [The witness withdrew]

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Then I see you're on your feet, Mr. Groome.

22             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I'm standing to deal with the matters

23     of the associated exhibits, if the Chamber believes that is something

24     that we can productively do at this time.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated]

Page 1472

 1             MR. GROOME:  Before I deal with them, there is the matter of P67

 2     which has been marked for identification.  That was the panoramic view of

 3     Sarajevo and Mr. Lukic asked to defer his submissions on that until after

 4     the witness concluded the testimony, so I will --

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much for that.  That's the point

 6     the Chamber was going to raise.  Mr. Lukic, what do you have to say about

 7     P67, MFI?

 8             MR. LUKIC:  No objections Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

10             Madam Registrar, P67 MFI is now admitted and you can remove the

11     MFI status.

12             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, there are ten associated videos which

13     are discussed in the statement that the Prosecution at this time tenders

14     as associated exhibits.  I will be guided by the Chamber.  I can simply

15     list each one or we can deal with each one individually.  I will be

16     guided by whatever the Chamber thinks to be more efficient.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Given the time remaining before we are supposed to

18     retire for the day, I would suggest that you make a globular tendering

19     and let's hear what Mr. Lukic has to say.

20             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.  The Prosecution tenders and the

21     following are all 65 ter numbers:  07742A; 22457A; 22457C; 22457F;

22     22457G; 22458B, and I note that is the particular video that Mr. Lukic

23     asked the witness about; 22459B; 2249C -- sorry.  22459C; 22459D; and

24     22459E.

25             And those are the ten exhibits, Your Honour.

Page 1473

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, are you able to make a globular

 2     response.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, very briefly.

 4             We object.  Why we showed this 22458B is exactly to show that

 5     it's not in the video what was represented to us.  And Otes video we --

 6     we cut ourselves was also different from what was represented to us, that

 7     it shows and that represents.

 8             So if we want to see -- to have videos in evidence we have to ask

 9     creator what does it mean and what's depicted inside or what was taped.

10             So we object to all of these associated exhibits.

11             And one of the documents is the diary of Radovan Karadzic, so ...

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, you made a globular objection to all of

13     them, but I hear you in your address talking about two clips.  The Otes

14     clip and the clip that you showed, another one, that the 22458B.

15             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm not quite sure how we stand for time ...

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Judge Fluegge is sitting in this court in half an

19     hour, in this courtroom.  I am inclined, therefore, to postpone this

20     objection and deal with it in the next session.  Okay.

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Groome you stood up when Mr. Lukic talked

23     about what we called the Karadzic notebook.  Is that what -- you're going

24     to respond to that?

25             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.  I'm happy to do it tomorrow

Page 1474

 1     morning.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are you sure about that?

 3             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour --

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Overlapping speakers] put on the record whatever

 5     you want to say.

 6             MR. GROOME:  It's okay, Your Honour, I appreciate the time

 7     pressure that we are under.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  We'll adjourn until tomorrow morning, 9.00

 9     in the morning, in the same courtroom.

10             Court adjourned.

11                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,

12                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 23rd day of

13                           August, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.