Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1475

 1                           Thursday, 23 August 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.55 a.m.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning to everybody in and around the

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 9             This is the case IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Madam Prosecutor [sic].

11             Do I take it that the appearances are the same as yesterday?

12             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, with the addition of Julia Lee and

13     Ozren Jungic.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

15             And for the Defence.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honours for the Defence, Branko Lukic,

17     Miodrag Stojanovic, Milos Saljic, Dan Ivetic and Erica de la Harpe.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  That's the new addition for

19     the day.  Good.  Welcome.

20             Yesterday we were busy talking about the admission of associated

21     exhibits, Mr. Lukic, and you were saying you were objecting to the

22     admission of all of them.

23             Could you please just, in a -- in brief state what the basis of

24     your objection is?

25             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honours, as we said yesterday, we don't know --

Page 1476

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May I interrupt you --

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just before you carry on, just to say for the same

 4     reasons as yesterday and the day before, the Chamber is sitting pursuant

 5     to Rule 15 bis.  Thank you.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

 7             As we said yesterday, we don't know what we have on those videos,

 8     if we do not ask the creator of the video what, on that video is.  We

 9     showed two videos that are different from what we had announced that we

10     have on those videos.  So if the videos are not explained, we think that

11     they don't have any probative value for this trial.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But, Mr. Lukic, any -- the jurisprudence around

13     the associated exhibits is that they are associated because they are

14     discussed in the statement.  Is that not the jurisprudence?

15             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  But probably it is more for

16     written exhibits, how we understand it.  Because video is completely

17     different.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I didn't -- I -- you would have to cite me to the

19     authority which says it is just for written exhibits, because as I

20     understand the jurisprudence it just says that any exhibit is an

21     associated exhibit if it is discussed in the statement, and I don't hear

22     you saying that they are not discussed.

23             MR. LUKIC:  They are discussed --

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And that discussion should tell us what the videos

25     are about.

Page 1477

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.  But another issue we had yesterday and probably

 2     we will have in the future, since those videos were time-consuming, we

 3     didn't have time.  Otherwise, I had all those videos prepared.  If I had

 4     time I would go through every single video and discuss it with the

 5     gentleman.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Would you like us to mark them for identification

 7     and give you time to go through them.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  If can you call the gentleman back.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  No.  That's not -- calling the gentleman back has

10     got nothing to do with giving you time to look at the videos, Mr. Lukic.

11             MR. LUKIC:  No, no, I saw the videos, all the videos and I have

12     questions for them.  I have written questions to go through, the videos

13     to go with the -- Mr. Van Lynden and ask him about the videos.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm not following your argument now.  At page 3,

15     you say:

16             "But another issue we had yesterday and probably we will have in

17     the future, since those videos were time-consuming, we didn't have

18     time" --

19             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  -- "otherwise I had all those videos prepared.  If

21     I had time I would go through every single video and discuss it with the

22     gentleman."

23             And then you are saying ... then you then say, "If we can call

24     the gentleman back."  But I thought you are saying you haven't had time

25     to go through the videos to determine in fact whether you do want to

Page 1478

 1     cross-examine or not.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  I didn't have time to go through all the videos here

 3     during the trial.  Otherwise, of course, I -- I saw all the videos given

 4     to us.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sure.  I see.  Oh, that's your problem.

 6             Mr. Groome.

 7             MR. GROOME:  Your Honours, the Prosecution's position is, is that

 8     the videos do in fact meet the legal test for admission as an associated

 9     exhibit.  I am not aware of any exception with respect to video material.

10     With respect to Mr. Lukic's submission now that he would have appreciated

11     an opportunity to examine the witness on these videos, my submission is

12     that that is something that should have been raised before the witness

13     has been discharged.  Having said that, I would inform the Chamber that

14     the witness lives here in The Hague just a matter of a few blocks from

15     the Tribunal if the Chamber should decide to grant what sounds like maybe

16     an application to recall the witness at some future time to examine him

17     about specific videos that could be done without significant

18     inconvenience to the witness.  But I submit that Mr. Lukic, if that is

19     his application that it probably is best done in writing so the

20     Prosecution can evaluate it and the Chamber has more detailed information

21     about the application before it.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is that, indeed, your position, Mr. Lukic?

23             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour, it is.

24                           [Trial Chamber confers]

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If that is the case, then will you do that in

Page 1479

 1     writing so that the Prosecution can respond?

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  In the meantime, we can MFI the exhibits.

 6             Mr. Lukic.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  I don't have no problem with

 8     MFI'ing.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

10             MR. LUKIC:  I thought you were asking me for numbers.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  No, no, we have got the numbers.  We just wanted

12     to know if we can be MFI them.

13             Madam Registrar, if they may be MFI'd, please.  Do we need to

14     call them out?  Not necessary.  You can do that --

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, I can assign only a range -- a range

16     of numbers and then [indiscernible].

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Madam Registrar.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  So exhibits will receive numbers from P80 up to

19     and including P89, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

21             Mr. Groome, I guess you want to hand over to Madam Bolton.

22             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, there is a matter I would like to raise

23     with the Chamber before we call the next witness.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  If you may, please.

25             MR. GROOME:  Your Honours, yesterday the Chamber raised the issue

Page 1480

 1     of Mr. Mladic's conduct during the hearings with Mladic Defence and the

 2     accused himself.  I would like to make the Chamber aware of the

 3     Prosecution's position with respect to this matter.

 4             Mr. van Lynden testified Tuesdays and Wednesday of this week.  At

 5     several times during the course of his evidence, Mr. Mladic hurled

 6     insults at the witness.  These were not recorded on the transcript but

 7     did go out on the video feed on the proceed and were reported both by

 8     local and international press.  I spoke with Mr. van Lynden after he

 9     testified and after he was discharged as a witness to thank him.  He had

10     read about these reports on the Internet and was quite displeased that a

11     witness would be subjected to such behaviour in a court.  And I convey

12     that the Court now.

13             After the second session on Tuesday, I asked a member of my

14     staff, a B/C/S speaker, to listen to the B/C/S channel.  During the third

15     session, a particularly vulgar insult was shouted out by Mr. Mladic.

16     This has not yet been reported in the press.  I must say that the

17     Prosecution did not anticipate such behaviour from a senior military

18     officer.

19             The Prosecution appreciates the Chamber's attention to this

20     matter yesterday.  Last evening I reviewed the Chamber's decision of the

21     15th of August, 2012, and noted that the Chamber has only authorised a

22     recording of the video image of Mr. Mladic.  There is no provision for

23     recording what he says.  I recognise that ordering a microphone be left

24     on to record his statements might have implications for his ability to

25     confer with his Defence team, and, thus, the Chamber might have refrained

Page 1481

 1     from ordering such, in light of this.

 2             The Prosecution will consider its position further.  Hopefully

 3     after yesterday's admonition by the Chamber, Mr. Mladic will conduct

 4     himself with the dignity expected of an officer.  If not, the Prosecution

 5     will be applying for additional measures to protect future witnesses from

 6     having to listen to insults while giving evidence.

 7             Secondly, Mr. Mladic has also adopted a practice of shouting

 8     instructions and other information to his Defence team.  We can all hear

 9     it and many members of the Prosecution team understand what is being

10     said.  Before the summer break, Mr. Mladic said something which was

11     certainly not in his interests to say.  I want to make it very clear to

12     Mr. Mladic and the Mladic Defence that while communications between an

13     accused and his counsel are privileged and sacrosanct, it is the

14     Prosecution's position that if such communications are made public,

15     because they are shouted across a courtroom, it is the Prosecution's

16     position that this important privilege may be deemed to have been waved

17     and the Prosecution may seek to use any inculpatory statements shouted in

18     this manner.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I may just add it is not deemed to be waived.  It

20     is waived.

21             MR. GROOME:  The Chamber has clearly demonstrated that it will

22     allow Mr. Mladic to consult with the Defence team whenever necessary and

23     in a way that protects the privacy of these communications.  It is

24     important that Mr. Mladic and the Defence appreciate that the

25     Prosecution, if this conduct continues, make seek in the future to

Page 1482

 1     introduce such statements.

 2             Thank you, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Groome.

 4             Mr. Lukic, do you have anything to say?

 5             MR. LUKIC:  I think we will.  I think we will have, Your Honour,

 6     especially regarding the turning on the microphone, but if you can give

 7     us some time probably we should answer to this tomorrow.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sure.  I want to say to you, Mr. Lukic, that if

 9     some members of the Prosecution could hear the insults coming from

10     Mr. Mladic, I would expect that all of the members of the Defence have

11     heard them, and I would have expected them -- on their own volition to

12     have taken action to stop Mr. Mladic.  We haven't done so as the Bench

13     because we don't understand what he says.  You do.  And I want to say to

14     you on a preliminary basis, prima facie view, the Chamber takes a dim

15     view of the conduct of the Defence in that they have not intervened when

16     their client has spoken in the manner alleged by the Prosecution.  It is

17     a preliminary view.  Have you the right to argue and show that, in fact,

18     you didn't hear him.  Later, as you say -- you will attend to this later.

19     Okay?  Thank you.

20             To you, Mr. Mladic, I just want to say:  Stop your fingers.  I

21     want to talk you.  Okay?  You stop misbehaving.  This is a court of law

22     and you shall behave yourself in the manner in which you are expected to

23     do, and if you do not, this Court does have measures it can take to deal

24     with the situation.  I hope you understand that.

25             Before we hand over to Madam Bolton, one last point from the

Page 1483

 1     Bench.  And this relates to CLSS B/C/S translation policy, which arose in

 2     relation to Exhibits D27 to D37.  In relation to these exhibits which

 3     were tendered through Witness Schmitz for which a B/C/S translation is

 4     missing, the Defence --

 5             Mr. Mladic -- the Defence submitted that it could not approach

 6     CLSS for a B/C/S translation.  There has been further research into the

 7     issue of CLSS policies on providing B/C/S translations to the Defence.

 8     The Registry Court Officer has informed the parties of the exact

 9     procedures.  If there are further problems, the parties should first seek

10     a resolution with the Registry and only as a last resort revert to the

11     Chamber.  The Chamber further reminds the Defence to provide ... I don't

12     think -- no, no, sorry.  I will leave it at that.  I think the Chamber is

13     satisfied that where the Defence does not need any B/C/S translations,

14     the languages of the Court are satisfied.  Thank you so much.

15             Mr. Groome, is that now Ms. Bolton's turn?

16             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Bolton, good morning.

18             MS. BOLTON:  Good morning, Your Honour.  If we could bring in the

19     next witness, please.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the witness please be brought in.

21             MS. BOLTON:  While he is being brought in, Your Honours, I can

22     indicate the Prosecution will be relying on certain adjudicated facts.

23     Those adjudicated facts are adjudicated fact 1683, which relates to the

24     SDS plebescite held on 9th and 10th November, 1991.  Adjudicated fact

25     1713 and 1714 which relate to the shelling of the old town area of

Page 1484

 1     Sarajevo in early May 1992.  Also, adjudicated facts 1693, 1697, 1698,

 2     and 1699, which deal with the issue of the erection and dismantling of

 3     barracks in Sarajevo on March 1, 2nd, and 3rd, 1992, following the

 4     announcement of the referendum on sovereignty.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Madam Bolton.  Let Mr. Doyle

 6     come through.

 7                           [The witness entered court]

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning, Mr. Doyle.

 9             THE WITNESS:  Good morning.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May you please make the declaration.

11             THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

12     whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

13                           WITNESS:  COLM MARY DOYLE

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  You may be seated, and ...

15                           Examination by Ms. Bolton:

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We will be with you just now, Mr. Doyle.  Let me

17     just finish with Madam Bolton.

18             Yes, Madam Bolton, you were saying something.  Or was I going to

19     say something?

20             MS. BOLTON:  You were going to say something, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Oh, I was going to ask a question.  I see a

22     pseudonym is assigned to Mr. Doyle and I also noted that there are no

23     protective measures with respect to him.  Is there any reason why we --

24     he should be referred to by pseudonym?

25             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, perhaps I'm best placed to answer

Page 1485

 1     that --

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If you could Mr. Groome.

 3             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, every Prosecution witness has been

 4     assigned an internal RM number for internal reasons and also to

 5     facilitate communication.  There are no protective measures for this

 6     witness and the Prosecution has not applied for any protective measures

 7     so there is no need to refer to that reference number.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 9             Madam Bolton, you may proceed.

10             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you.  Your Honours, with your permission I

11     wonder if I might do what Mr. Groome did with Mr. van Lynden and provide

12     Mr. Doyle with a copy, an unmarked copy of his witness statement for

13     reference during his testimony.  Can provide it to my friend.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated]

15             MR. IVETIC:  No objection, Your Honour.  I just want to check to

16     make sure because one of the copies in e-court was missing two pages

17     so ...

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated]

19             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, your microphone is not turned on.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I will say that again.  I was going to say I'm

21     sorry, I thought it was Mr. Lukic who was going to stand up.  I notice it

22     is you standing up.  Thank you so much.

23             The Registrar officer will show you the document.

24             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25             No objection from the Defence, Your Honour.

Page 1486

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Ivetic, do you have somehow any access to the

 2     two pages that you didn't find in e-court?

 3             MR. IVETIC:  I had access to them, correct.  I just wanted to

 4     make sure --

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Overlapping speakers]

 6             MR. IVETIC:  -- the version that is in the record is the correct

 7     one [overlapping speakers] time --

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Overlapping speakers] I want to make sure you had

 9     the document.

10             Our apologies if we overlap.

11             Madam Bolton.

12             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

13        Q.   Morning, Mr. Doyle.

14        A.   Good morning.

15        Q.   Mr. Doyle, I understand you're struggling with an ear infection

16     today?

17        A.   Yes, I have an infection on my eardrum.

18        Q.   If at any point in time it becomes too painful for you to

19     continue, would you please let the Trial Chamber know?

20        A.   Yes, I shall.

21        Q.   And are you able to hear all right?

22        A.   Yes, I can.

23        Q.   I am just going to remind you that you and I both speak English

24     obviously and there is an interpreter who is interpreting everything we

25     say into B/C/S so that Mr. Mladic can understand, so it is important that

Page 1487

 1     we speak a little more slowly than usual, and in particular that we try

 2     to pause between my question and the beginning of your answer, okay?

 3        A.   That's fine, yes.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Indiscernible]

 5             MS. BOLTON:

 6        Q.   Sir, do you recall providing a statement to the Office of the

 7     Prosecutor?  It was ultimately dated the 27th of July, 1995.

 8        A.   Yes, I do.

 9             MS. BOLTON:  And if we could have 65 ter 28383 brought up,

10     please.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  I apologise is the number 28383?

12             MS. BOLTON:  Yes.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  This one is not in the e-court.

14             MS. BOLTON:  Sorry, 28343.  Sorry, I need reading glasses.

15        Q.   Sir, do you recognise the document that is before you on the

16     right side of the screen?

17        A.   Yes, I do.

18             MS. BOLTON:  And could I ask, Madam Registrar, if you could go to

19     the last page of the document where we should find the signature.

20        Q.   And while that's being brought in B/C/S, sir, do you recognise

21     the signature on the witness acknowledgment page in English?

22        A.   Yes, I do.

23        Q.   And whose signature is that?

24        A.   That's my signature.

25        Q.   Okay.  And have you had the chance to review this statement

Page 1488

 1     recently?

 2        A.   Yes, I have.

 3        Q.   And did you have a chance to review the statement at the time you

 4     originally gave it before signing it?

 5        A.   Yes, I did.

 6        Q.   I understand there are a few corrections to the statement.  And

 7     if I could have 65 ter 28342 brought up, please.

 8             Sir, this is an addendum that again bears a signature.  And can

 9     you confirm whether that is your signature, sir?

10        A.   Yes, it is.

11        Q.   And that addendum refers to some corrections in the witness

12     statement; is that correct?

13        A.   That is correct, yes.

14        Q.   Okay.

15             MS. BOLTON:  I'd ask that the addendum be marked as an exhibit,

16     Your Honour.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It may be.

18             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I know it is a technicality, but under

19     Rule 92 ter they have to ask the witness, If you were asked the same

20     questions today would his answers be the same, and that has not been

21     done.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Madam --

23             MS. BOLTON:  Sorry.

24        Q.   If you were asked about the corrections that are outlined in the

25     addendum, sir, today would those corrections be the same?

Page 1489

 1        A.   Yes, they would.

 2             MS. BOLTON:  Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is so admitted.  May it please be given --

 4             MR. IVETIC:  No objection.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May it please be given an exhibit number.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 28342 becomes Exhibit P90, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 8             MS. BOLTON:

 9        Q.   And in addition to the addendum, sir, I understand that when you

10     had the opportunity to review your statement this past weekend, that you

11     noted an error in paragraph 90.  Do you wish to look at paragraph 90,

12     sir.

13             If we could have back 65 ter 343, please.

14        A.   Yes, I recall going through that paragraph.

15        Q.   And I will indicate it is on page ... 13 in the English version.

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And it's 15 in the B/C/S.

18             The last portion of that paragraph currently reads:

19             "Brade saw no artillery anywhere."

20             And I understand that it should read:

21             "Brade saw no evidence of artillery having been withdrawn."

22             Is that correct, sir?

23        A.   That is correct, yes.

24        Q.   And with those corrections, does your statement accurately and

25     fairly reflect the information you provided to the Office of the

Page 1490

 1     Prosecutor in 1995?

 2        A.   Yes, it does.

 3        Q.   And if you were asked similar questions today as reposed to 1995,

 4     would your answers be the same today?

 5        A.   Yes they would.

 6        Q.   And now that you have taken the solemn declaration, do you affirm

 7     the truthfulness of the your statement?

 8        A.   Yes, I do.

 9             MS. BOLTON:  I would ask at this time, Your Honour, that the

10     statement be admitted along with the associated exhibits.

11             MR. IVETIC:  No objection, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You are -- you did hear what Madam Bolton said:

13     Along with the associated exhibits.

14             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

16             The statement, together with its associated exhibits, under

17     65 ter 28343 are admitted into evidence.  And may it please be given an

18     exhibit number.

19             MS. BOLTON:  Sorry, Your Honour.  I would ask -- I think that the

20     associated exhibits should each of them have its own exhibit number

21     individually, and if so I could read out the 65 ter if that assists

22     Madam Registrar.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay, you can do that.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Okay, first, the statement, document 28343, will

25     receive Exhibit P91.

Page 1491

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 2             Madam Bolton, you may then read out the 65 ter numbers of the

 3     associated exhibits.

 4             MS. BOLTON:  I believe they are 65 ter 10941.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Will receive Exhibit P92, Your Honours.

 6             MS. BOLTON:  Exhibit -- 65 ter 10944.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Will receive number P93, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 9             MS. BOLTON:  65 ter 10980.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Will receive number P94, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

12             MS. BOLTON:  65 ter 10981.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Will receive number P95, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

15             MS. BOLTON:  And 65 ter 18738.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Will receive number P96, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated] Thank you so much,

18     Madam Registrar.

19             MS. BOLTON:  With the Court's permission, Your Honours, may I

20     read out a brief summary of the witness's evidence.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Indeed you may, madam.

22             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you.

23             Mr. Doyle was a member of the Irish armed forces.  From

24     October 1991 until August 1992, he was deployed to the former Yugoslavia.

25     During that time-period he served in three different capacities.  In

Page 1492

 1     October and November 1991, he was a monitor with the

 2     European Community Monitoring Mission, or ECMM, and he was stationed in

 3     Banja Luka.  On the 24th of November, 1991, he was promoted.  He remained

 4     in the employ of the ECMM but became the head of mission in Sarajevo

 5     region and at that time he was transferred to Sarajevo.  While serving in

 6     that capacity he had a -- 65 international monitors reporting to him.

 7     They were stationed in different areas in the former Yugoslavia and those

 8     areas included Bihac, Banja Luka, Tuzla, Mostar, and Sarajevo.

 9             His responsibilities as head of mission included liaising with

10     political, military, religious and community leaders.  This included

11     having contact with the president of Bosnia, Mr. Izetbegovic.  He had

12     contact with a number of members of the JNA, or federal army of the

13     republic of Yugoslavia.  He had contact with Radovan Karadzic,

14     Mrs. Plavsic, Momcilo Krajisnik, and Nikola Koljevic.  He completed his

15     work with the European Community Monitoring Mission at the end of

16     March and he was then approached to act as Lord Carrington's personal

17     representative and he commenced working for Lord Carrington on the

18     10th of April, 1992, and Lord Carrington was the head of the

19     International Conference for Peace in the former Yugoslavia.

20             Mr. Doyle will give evidence about his observations of the rising

21     ethnic tensions in the municipalities of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and

22     particularly near the Croatian border in the fall of 1991, and he will

23     give evidence that one source of that tension arose from the mobilisation

24     order that was issued with respect to the JNA.  It was the position the

25     government of Bosnia-Herzegovina that the order, in essence, was not to

Page 1493

 1     be responded to.  They took a neutral position on it.  And, as a result,

 2     most Croat and Muslims did not enlist or answer the call-up, whereas, the

 3     Serb population did mobilise.  And I anticipate that the witness will

 4     tell that you in the municipalities, the JNA were taking weapons that had

 5     been stored with local territorial units, defence units, and then giving

 6     those to the reservists who were answering the mobilisation.  And the net

 7     effect then was that the Serb population in Bosnia was becoming armed,

 8     and the other populations were not.

 9             As I indicated, the witness left the municipalities at a certain

10     point, and although he continued to receive reports about the goings-on,

11     he was himself stationed in Sarajevo from that point forward, and he will

12     have evidence to give about the situation in Sarajevo.  He has some

13     evidence to give about his own observations of the forcible transfer of

14     non-Serb populations in parts of the Serbian-held areas of the city and

15     about rising tensions in the wake of the referendum results and,

16     ultimately, the outbreak of violence.

17             He has some evidence to give about the bombardment of the city of

18     Sarajevo, particularly in May 1992 and his observations of artillery in

19     the hills around Sarajevo and also about the transfer of weapons from the

20     JNA to the Bosnian Serbs.

21             That's the summary, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Madam Bolton.

23             MS. BOLTON:  I just have a technical issue.  A brief indulgence,

24     Your Honour.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, you may.

Page 1494

 1                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 2             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 3        Q.   Mr. Doyle, your statement was taken back in 1995, and I just

 4     wanted to ask you a little bit about what you have been doing since 1995.

 5             I understand that you remained with the Irish armed forces until

 6     you retired in 2007; is that correct?

 7        A.   That is correct, yes.

 8        Q.   And at that time of your retirement what rank did you hold?

 9        A.   I was a colonel.

10        Q.   Okay.  And I understand, sir, that after returning from

11     Bosnia-Herzegovina, you held a number of different posts, which included,

12     in 1995, being the commander of an infantry battalion stationed in

13     Limerick?

14        A.   Correct.

15        Q.   You were also a battalion commander with the UNIFL in Lebanon in

16     1997/1998?

17        A.   Yes, I was.

18        Q.   For a time period you were the director of public relations for

19     the Irish armed forces?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And you also served in different capacities with the UN training

22     school and the Irish armed forces training centre; is that correct?

23        A.   That is correct, yes.

24        Q.   In 2002 to 2004 you were the director of the reserve forces for

25     Ireland; is that correct?

Page 1495

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And what are reserve forces?

 3        A.   Reserve forces are the equivalent of territorials that will be

 4     taken up in the case of emergencies.  They would be what we might term as

 5     part-time soldiers.  They come up periodically on weekend for duties and

 6     for training so they would be there as a reserve in case the occasion

 7     would demand that they become part of the Defence forces.

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Interprets kindly ask you to slow down and put

 9     a pause between question and answer, please.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Bolton, I'm going to interrupt you.  The

11     interpreters are asking that you slow down and pause in between question

12     and answer and answer and question.

13             MS. BOLTON:  Yes.  Thank you, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And the comment of the interpreters you will not

16     hear if you don't use your earphones.

17             MS. BOLTON:  I'm sorry, Your Honour, I couldn't hear your

18     comment.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Precisely because you were not wearing your

20     earphones.  That is the point the Judge was making.  You won't hear the

21     interpretation.

22             MS. BOLTON:  No, that was actually the question I was asking was

23     what channel the interpretation is on.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Channel 4.

25             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you.

Page 1496

 1        Q.   Sorry, sir.  Going back to 2004/2006 then, I understand that you

 2     were the Chief of Staff, military division, UN peacekeeping operations in

 3     New York?

 4        A.   Yes, I was.

 5        Q.   Sir, you may, if you need to, refer to your statement to keep up

 6     with my questions, because I will be referring, at times to various

 7     paragraph numbers.

 8             At paragraphs 4, 5, and 6 of your statement, you talk a little

 9     bit about the mandate of the ECMM, and I have a few questions about that.

10             You indicate that the mandate of the mission was to try to deter

11     the spread of conflict from Croatia into Bosnia-Herzegovina.  My first

12     question is:  Do you have any experience up to that point in time in

13     monitoring activities in conflict or crisis areas?

14        A.   Personally, I served with the United Nations Truce Supervision

15     Organisation which was monitoring cease-fires in the Middle East, so from

16     1984 to 1986, I was a United Nations military observer in Syria and

17     thereafter in Lebanon.  And then I was appointed to senior operations

18     officer of Observer Group Lebanon.  So, yes, I would have had experience

19     in negotiations at that stage.

20        Q.   And who were the parties to the conflict in Bosnia-Herzegovina

21     or, sorry, in Croatia?

22        A.   I had no personal involvement in the actual operation in Croatia,

23     but I was aware of the fact that we had monitors based in Zagreb who were

24     covering the area of Croatia.  They had been deployed to Split and from

25     Split, teams were established to go out to various places like Dubrovnik

Page 1497

 1     and other centres.  All of my deployment at that time in Yugoslavia was

 2     based in Bosnia-Herzegovina so it is in Bosnia itself that I would have

 3     had experience of dealing with various sides to the conflict.

 4        Q.   My question may have been a bit vague.  Who were the two parties

 5     that were in conflict?

 6        A.   Well, the parties -- are we talking about Sarajevo?  We're

 7     talking Bosnia?

 8        Q.   We're talking about Croatia when you were first assigned.

 9        A.   Well, when I was first assigned, as I said, I did -- there was no

10     actual service that I carried out in Croatia.  But at the time that I

11     arrived I know that negotiations were in hand for the withdrawal of the

12     federal army from Croatia.

13        Q.   Which federal army?

14        A.   The Federal Army of Yugoslavia commonly known as the JNA.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Do you know with whom the JNA had been in combat

16     in Croatia at that time?

17             THE WITNESS:  They had been in combat with Croats of Croatia and

18     there were areas of Croatia which had large populations of Serbs

19     particularly in the area called the Krajina, and that's where there was

20     some conflict and the need for monitors to be deployed.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And did the Croats have an army?

22             THE WITNESS:  The Croats were attempting to establish an army.

23     At that stage, of course, the Croats didn't have their independence so it

24     was part of the federation of Yugoslavia whose army basically was the

25     JNA.  So at that time the Croats may have had some territorial forces

Page 1498

 1     that I would be unaware of but certainly didn't have an army as such.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I think, Madam Bolton, that's as far as we can

 3     take it.

 4             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5        Q.   At paragraph 5 there's an indication that it was understood by

 6     all sides that if the conflict spread to Bosnia, it would make the

 7     Croatian conflict seem very small.

 8             Do you know why there was that feeling?

 9        A.   Well, the feeling we had at the time was that such was the ethnic

10     mix in Bosnia between Serbs, Croats and Muslims that if the conflict did

11     come from Croatia, and it would be very serious, and it was one of the

12     few issues that all sides in Bosnia actually agreed on.  They all agreed

13     when I met the political parties, the SDA, who were the Muslims, the HDZ,

14     who were the Croats and the SDS with Serbs, they all agreed, Yes, we do

15     know, Mr. Doyle, that if conflict comes to Bosnia it will be pretty

16     serious, because the population of Serbs in Croatia in comparison to

17     Bosnia was relatively small, but in Bosnia there was a considerable

18     population of Serbs.  So all sides agreed that if conflict were to come

19     it would be very serious.

20        Q.   All right.  Now I understand that when you were working as a

21     monitor, so October, November 1991, one of your responsibilities was to

22     prepare reports; is that correct?

23        A.   Yes, that's correct.

24        Q.   And what was done with the reports that you authored?

25        A.   The format at the time was that various teams of monitors were

Page 1499

 1     deployed to different areas in Bosnia as you have mentioned earlier.  And

 2     they would go out to the various municipalities which were called

 3     "opstina" and they would meet the various people who were in charge like

 4     the mayor of the town, the police chief, and then the party leaders in

 5     that local community.  We would try and learn to find out what exactly

 6     are the concerns of the various communities.  What are their fears?  What

 7     are their hopes?  And then we would then compile a report based on her

 8     findings.  The difficulty we had at the time was that we didn't have good

 9     communications.  So, for example, when I was in Banja Luka, the only

10     means I had of sending reports back to the headquarters in Sarajevo was

11     by using a fax machine belonging to the hotel that we stayed in.  This,

12     to me, was not a secure means of transmission of information, so a lot of

13     the reports would have been held and either sent by fax, if we felt it

14     would be safe, or else taken by the team when it returned back to

15     Sarajevo after, say, a week's duty in the area.

16        Q.   And when you say you didn't have a good communications you're

17     talking about between the monitors in the field, as it were, and your

18     headquarters?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And in terms of the reports that you authored how important was

21     it to you to try to be accurate?

22        A.   Well, my experience in any form of peacekeeping was that it is

23     essential to maintain impartiality and neutrality.  And, therefore, I

24     would check all of the reports to make sure that they accurately

25     reflected what we found out on the ground.  The report then would be

Page 1500

 1     agreed upon by the three members of the team.  The team I was a member of

 2     also had an officer from France and an officer from Greece.  Because I

 3     was an English speaker, they looked to me, I think, to write the reports,

 4     but I wouldn't send the report unless they agreed with its content.  So

 5     it was done by our experience.  It was done by our -- our -- I suppose

 6     our professionalism in our training and then when we agreed with the

 7     content of the report, it would either be sent by fax, if we felt it was

 8     safe, or else it would be taken by the team returning to Sarajevo after

 9     its, we say, a week's tour of duty.

10        Q.   All right.  Moving forward in time when you become the head of

11     the ECMM and you're sent to Sarajevo, did you continue to receive similar

12     reports from your monitors?

13        A.   Yes.  At that stage in Sarajevo, I had established an operational

14     cell and the -- one of the tasks of the operational cell was to

15     co-ordinate the reports from the different areas from Bihac, from Tuzla,

16     from Mostar, from Sarajevo itself and then that operation cell would make

17     out a consolidated or co-ordinated report and that report then would go

18     from Sarajevo back to Zagreb.

19        Q.   All right.  And what was in Zagreb?

20        A.   Zagreb was the then headquarters of the entire monitor mission.

21        Q.   And just moving forward into time, when you ceased working for

22     ECMM and you became Lord Carrington's representative, did you continue to

23     receive any information from the ECMM monitors?

24        A.   Yes one of the tasks I had from Lord Carrington was to attempt to

25     keep the contacts I had, because at that stage I was relatively very well

Page 1501

 1     known by the leaders of various political parties, and therefore in order

 2     for me to be able to give an accurate report, I would look for

 3     information from the Presidency, for example.  I would get information

 4     from some of the monitor teams of the -- of the ECMM, and then afterwards

 5     I would get some information from the United Nations force that was

 6     deployed.  It was very important for me that one part of maintaining my

 7     neutrality was I did not look for military information because I didn't

 8     want to be targeted as some sort of an agent or a spy or informer or

 9     intelligence officer.  And this is something I'd learned from my

10     experience in the Middle East, that we don't look for hard military

11     information.

12             We didn't look for locations of units.  We didn't look for

13     weapons.  But we did get the information about the trends, about the

14     fears and anxieties were of the various population.  So a lot of my

15     information came from having the facilities of the monitor mission

16     available to me when I was Lord Carrington's representative.

17        Q.   So if we could then ask some questions about the work you did

18     when you were still a monitor in October, November of 1991.

19             Now, at paragraph 7 of your statement, you've listed some of the

20     municipalities that you visited while you were a monitor, and that list

21     included Doboj, Banja Luka, Derventa, Prijedor, and others.  Could you

22     just tell the Chamber, please, what the atmosphere was like in those

23     municipalities you've listed in terms of ethnic relations at that time.

24        A.   I would have to say that one of the problems the monitor mission

25     came across was that if we met with the party representatives all

Page 1502

 1     together we made very little progress because one side would refute what

 2     the other side was saying, and after a while we gave it some

 3     consideration and I made a recommendation that after I would say towards

 4     the end of October -- but -- about the end of October that there would be

 5     more gained by visiting the parties separately.  So if we were to go to a

 6     municipality, out of courtesy we would meet with the mayor first, and if

 7     that mayor, for example, was a Serb then we would invite to meet the

 8     local Serb representatives of the SDS.  And after that, we would then

 9     visit the Croats and the Muslims and then we would maybe talk, for

10     example, with somebody like the police chief so that was the first thing

11     we did there.

12             The second thing, there were some common issues that seemed to

13     come up in most of the municipalities.  There was an increase in the

14     amount of distrust and suspicion.  Words began like Chetnik and Ustasha

15     that were not used earlier, and there was a lot of reference back to what

16     had happened in the Second World War.  And we thought this was getting

17     very serious.  In addition to that, most of the areas we visited, the

18     various party representative, certainly the Muslims and the Croats, were

19     expressing concern about the amount of reservists that had been called up

20     for military service, that in a lot of cases they were intimidatory.

21     They were carrying weapons.  They were creating a lot of fear amongst the

22     non-Serbs.  And this was an issue that I used to bring up myself when --

23     when I went on these visits.  And one of them specifically is, Why does

24     it appear to us, why does it appear that the Bosnian Serbs seem to have

25     access to more weapons than those of Muslims and Croats?  And, of course,

Page 1503

 1     we understood ourselves from the point of view that when mobilisation was

 2     called and the only -- the only ethnic group that obeyed with the

 3     mobilisation were the Serbs, we found out later that when they were armed

 4     by the JNA, and they finished their temporary service, they were allowed

 5     to retain their weapons.

 6        Q.   You've given us quite a bit of information there and I just want

 7     to break it down a little bit.

 8             You first -- you referred to a mobilisation being called.  What

 9     was the mobilisation?

10        A.   Well, my understanding at the time was that the federal

11     authorities in Belgrade issued a mobilisation and that meant that

12     citizens of Bosnia were expected to be called up to have military service

13     with the JNA or alongside the JNA.  The president, Alija Izetbegovic,

14     objected to this and felt that this was not something that Belgrade

15     should have the authority to do, so he made a proclamation at some stage

16     that it was not mandatory for the citizens of Bosnia to obey the call-up

17     to mobilisation.  However, most of the Serbs actually did mobilise.  So,

18     on the one hand, where you had the federal army, which, at this stage,

19     was interpreted as being increasingly pro-Serb, and the Serbs themselves

20     getting armed from the JNA, we began to be concerned that the weapons

21     coming in were all sort of on the one side.

22             Sorry, I should add here that I took up the issue of the

23     indiscipline of the reservists with all the JNA military commanders I

24     met:  The 5th Corps, the 9th Corps - not the 9th Corps. The 9th Corps was

25     in Knin - the 10th Corps, the 4th Corps in Sarajevo.  And these are

Page 1504

 1     issues that I brought up with the federal army myself.

 2        Q.   Just a few follow-up questions.  You indicated that most Serbs

 3     responded to the mobilisation order.  What about the Muslim and Croat

 4     populations?

 5        A.   I didn't -- I wasn't in a position to get exact figures but it

 6     was my understanding and what we were learning is that very few Croats or

 7     Muslims were actually being mobilised.

 8        Q.   And you also told us that when people responded to the

 9     mobilisation order, they were given weapons by the JNA and allowed to

10     keep them.  What understanding did you have as to where they were getting

11     the weapons?

12        A.   Well, I suppose the clearest indication I had of that was when I

13     went on a visit to Sokolac which is a suburb outside of Sarajevo, and I

14     was meeting with a leadership of an internation conglomerate called

15     SIPAD, and at that particular meeting, as I said, the normal thing was to

16     visit then the local authorities, Serbs, Muslims and Croats, and at one

17     stage in the middle of a meeting I could hear a lot of weapons being

18     fired, and I turned around and I asked the question specifically, What is

19     all the shooting outside.

20             And I was told by the leader of the Serb party that these were

21     reservists who had been mobilised by the JNA.  They had carried out their

22     period of service, they were now home, and they were letting off steam by

23     firing their weapons into the air.  And I asked the specific question,

24     Are the weapons taken off these reservists when they finish their tour of

25     duty?  And I was told, No, they are allowed to keep them.  And that trend

Page 1505

 1     seemed to be evident in other locations as well.

 2        Q.   Now, you have explained, then, where the reservists were getting

 3     their weapons.  You've told us they were getting them from the JNA.  My

 4     question is:  Do you know where the JNA were getting the weapons to

 5     distribute to the reservists?

 6        A.   I don't know specifically where they were getting them, but I

 7     mean, there was a very large armament industry in Bosnia, the largest in

 8     all of federal Yugoslavia so there was certainly plenty of weapons

 9     about -- so I'm not -- I can't in truth tell you exactly where the weapon

10     is coming from, but we did believe that the weapons were being supplied

11     let's say by the federal authorities.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Bolton, could you please slow down both of

13     you.

14             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.

15             MS. BOLTON:

16        Q.   Are you familiar with the term Territorial Defence units within

17     the context of Bosnia?

18        A.   Yes.  My understanding of the Territorial Defence units were they

19     were existing units that was part of the life in Yugoslavia all over the

20     various republics, and those units comprised in Bosnia of Serbs, Croats

21     and Muslims.  And they had storage of weapons.  And those weapons, I

22     understood, after a while, were actually being used to actually arm the

23     Serbs.  So not only were they given by the JNA but they were taken from

24     the various stores of the territorial units.  And this, of course, was

25     something again which was all one-sided.

Page 1506

 1        Q.   When you say that the Bosnian Serbs were taking arms from the

 2     territorial units, was there any involvement of the JNA in the seizure of

 3     those weapons?

 4        A.   I --

 5             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, that misstates the testimony.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Ivetic.

 7             MR. IVETIC:  I think it misstates the testimony of the witness.

 8     He said the JNA was the one taking this as I read in line number 10 of

 9     the transcript.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, sorry, Mr. Ivetic.  Let just read ...

11             Yeah.  And your point being, Mr. Ivetic?

12             MR. IVETIC:  The counsel has now said "when you say that the

13     Bosnian Serbs were taking arms," that is not what the witness testified

14     to so I don't want counsel testifying about matters that are not in

15     evidence.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Bolton.

17             MS. BOLTON:  Well, as I understand what's written in the

18     transcript, he has said that:

19             "... after a while, the weapons," sorry, "were being used to arm

20     the Serbs but not only given by the JNA but taken from the various stores

21     of the territorial units."

22             So I understood the witness to be saying the Serbs were arming

23     themselves from the territory units.  Whereas, my friend thinks that what

24     has been said is that the JNA was taking the weapons from the territorial

25     units and redistributing them and I'm trying to clarify which was the

Page 1507

 1     case.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And I think the best way to clarify that is to say

 3     to the witness:  You say, Mr. Witness, that after a while, were actually

 4     being used to arm the Serbs.  Who used to arm those Serbs?

 5             You should ask that question.

 6             MS. BOLTON:

 7        Q.   Could you answer His Honour's question.

 8        A.   As best I can recall, the Serbs were being armed by weapons

 9     supplied to them by the JNA and also from stocks of weapons that were

10     part of the Territorial Defence units that were held in stores.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And who was accessing the weapons in the

12     Territorial Defence force stores to arm the Serbs?

13             THE WITNESS:  I'm afraid I actually don't know.  I suspect that

14     it was probably the JNA, but I can't say for certain.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:

16             Thank you very much.

17             Yes, Madam Bolton.

18             MS. BOLTON:

19        Q.   You told us that your observations were that as a result of the

20     response to the mobilisation order and the conduct of the JNA that the

21     Serb population was becoming armed.  Could you tell us what effect that

22     had on ethnic relations in the areas?

23        A.   Well, it caused a lot of concern because the Muslims and the

24     Croats were becoming increasing worried, that these weapons might be used

25     in the future against them.  It was one of the consequences that probably

Page 1508

 1     was to their disadvantage by not -- to the disadvantage of the Muslims

 2     and the Croat by not obeying the call to the mobilisation.  It meant they

 3     wouldn't have access to the weapons that the Serbs would, but they were

 4     quite willing to comply with the recommendation of the president when he

 5     said they should not actually go up for mobilisation.

 6             But it led to an increase in the tension in the areas, and

 7     because the relationships between the Serbs, Croats and Muslims was

 8     deteriorating, it increased their fears.  That would have been my

 9     assessment.

10        Q.   Okay.  May I have 65 ter 02887.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Ivetic.

12             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, Your Honour, while we're waiting for the

13     document to come up, this was a document that was for the first time

14     noticed for this witness on August 20th, 2012 when the exhibit list for

15     this witness was first given to the Defence.  This document is not

16     identified, to my knowledge, on the Rule 66(A)(ii) disclosures for this

17     witness that were made in February of this same year.  And I would draw

18     that to the attention of the Chamber that I view it as a lapse on the

19     part of the Prosecution of their disclosure obligations under the Rules

20     to provide adequate time and notice to the Defence of material that it

21     intends to elicit through witnesses.

22             Thank you.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Bolton.

24             MS. BOLTON:  My understanding is this isn't a disclosure issue.

25     My friend isn't saying he didn't have disclosure of the document.  What

Page 1509

 1     he is saying is that when we filed our original 92 ter notice we did not

 2     include this document in that notice, which is correct.  However, the

 3     practice has been before this Tribunal that - and there is no guide-line

 4     at this point in time that I'm aware of - that the parties exchange a

 5     final list of exhibits.  Two days has been the practice in most of the

 6     Trial Chambers before the witness testifies.  And the reason that there

 7     are obviously changes is that often you can't meet with a witness until a

 8     short time before they testify.  It is only after meeting with the

 9     witness that you can ascertain, I think, that final list.  So this list

10     was actually provided more than two days ahead of time to my friend and,

11     as I indicated, at this point in time that has been the practice followed

12     with all the preceding witnesses without complaint from the Defence.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is it the Prosecution's position that documents

14     can be sprung at least two days before they are used in Court, and that's

15     fine.  Is that what I understand you to be saying is the practice?

16             MS. BOLTON:  My understanding, Your Honour, for example, I recall

17     before the Perisic Trial Chamber that our practice was two days ahead of

18     time we had to provide a list of the -- final lists of the exhibits we

19     intended to show a witness in court.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sure.  But these are -- these are documents that

21     have been disclosed either under Rule 66 or Rule 68 or whatever other

22     Rule or 70.

23             MS. BOLTON:  Yes.  And I understand my friend is indicating -- I

24     don't understand my friend to be making a disclosure issue of --

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  As I understand him, he is saying it's late

Page 1510

 1     disclosure.  It was given on the 20th, three days before the witness is

 2     on the stand.  That's what he said.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  If I can clarify, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yeah, please do.

 5             MR. IVETIC:  The document itself, I don't know when it was

 6     disclosed.  It's in the system.  The document is in the system with all

 7     the other documents, millions of documents.  However, in terms of this

 8     witness, the specific Rule 66(A)(ii) disclosures for this witness were

 9     done in February of this year and this document is not on that list of

10     disclosures for this witness.

11             The practice for the previous witnesses, it is true that

12     Mr. van Lynden's exhibit list came four days before he testified, but he

13     was from the first segment of witnesses, meaning that we had three months

14     prior disclosure of the primary exhibits that were to be used with that

15     witness.  The same has been true for any other witness that has appeared

16     thus far in this trial.  This is the first witness for whom -- he was not

17     on the first segment of witnesses and, therefore, there was no disclosure

18     of an exhibit list for this witness prior to the summer recess of the

19     Chamber.  And, therefore, counsel has said that it is the practice in

20     other cases.  I have had several other cases at this Tribunal and we've

21     had one week prior to witness appearing has been the rule.  So I don't

22     know.  I do agree that this Chamber has not set a guide-line and that's

23     why I bring this to the attention of the Chamber so that we can perhaps

24     set some sort of guide-line on this, so we all know what the ground rules

25     are for when exhibit lists are to be provided for witnesses.

Page 1511

 1             Thank you.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I do understand it, Mr. Ivetic, that you are not

 3     objecting to this document being tendered?  Has it been tendered now?

 4             MR. IVETIC:  It hasn't been tendered yet --

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Indeed.  But it is being used with the witness.

 6     You're not objecting to it being used with the witness right now.  You

 7     are just seeking guidance from the Chamber as to how we will proceed in

 8     the future.

 9             MR. IVETIC:  Waiting for the transcript.

10             Twofold, Your Honour.  Yes, I'm seeking guidance, but depending

11     on the questions asked for this witness, I may have other problems

12     insofar as the Rule 65 ter summary for this witness does not necessarily

13     cover all questions that could be asked of this document.  But I will

14     wait and endeavour to see what questions are asked of this document

15     before making any general objections.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well, shall we then wait until that time?

17             MR. IVETIC:  That's fine.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

19              Madam Bolton, you may proceed.

20             Just before you proceed, Madam Bolton.  We have now been sitting

21     for 1 hour, 5 minutes.  Practice in this case is that we sit for one hour

22     and break for 20 minutes.

23             Do you have a convenient point where you can stop?

24             MS. BOLTON:  Yes, Your Honour, why don't I just put on the record

25     a couple of comments I had and then we could break and deal with the

Page 1512

 1     document after the break.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  By all means.

 3             MS. BOLTON:  The comments I have, Your Honour, are that this

 4     Rule 66(A)(ii) doesn't apply to this document.  It's a rule that applies

 5     to a prior statements.  The document is not a prior statement of this

 6     witness, and this document was disclosed in November of last year to the

 7     Defence.  So this is really the only issue that's reigning is the issue

 8     of the fact that notice was given four days ago, I guess now, that we

 9     would be using it with this witness.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  When it was disclosed in November of last year,

11     what was it disclosed as?

12             MS. BOLTON:  It was disclosed under Rule 68 (ii) which I would

13     suggest is the appropriate Rule.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  68 (ii).  Thank you so much.  Those are all the

15     comments you would make?

16             MS. BOLTON:  Those are all the comments.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Doyle, we're going to take a short break.

18     We'll come back at 20 past 11.  You may stand down and come back at that

19     time.

20             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

22                           [The witness stands down]

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We'll take an adjournment and come back at 20 past

24     11.00.

25             Court adjourned.

Page 1513

 1                           --- Recess taken at 11.02 a.m.

 2                           --- On resuming at 11.24 a.m.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Bolton.

 4             MS. BOLTON:  Yes.  If the witness could be brought in, please.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I beg your pardon.

 6             Yes, may the witness please be brought in.

 7                           [The witness takes the stand]

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Madam Bolton.

 9             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you.

10        Q.   Mr. Doyle, I'm just conscious of the amount of time that we're

11     using, and I'm going to ask you if you could try to keep your answers as

12     succinct as possible.

13             Going back to 65 ter 02887, if I may, please.

14             Looking at the first page of this document that should be in

15     front of you, sir.  You see it's a document dated 20th March, 1992, and

16     the author is Commander General Kukanjac.  Did you know that gentleman?

17        A.   Yes, I did.

18        Q.   And if we could go to, please, page 6 in the English and pages 4

19     to 5 in the B/C/S.  Under subheading (5), you see some information

20     indicating that some -- under subparagraph (f), the JNA had distributed

21     some 51.900 weapons to volunteer units in the zone, and I'm wondering if

22     that information confirms or contradictions your suspicions about the

23     JNA's role in arming the Serbian population?

24        A.   I think that would conform with what our suspicions were at the

25     time.

Page 1514

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             MS. BOLTON:  I would be asking to tendered that document into

 3     evidence, Your Honours.

 4             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I'm confused if the -- if its being

 5     tendered -- the witness did not prepare it.  I don't know if he has seen

 6     it before.  He is not the author of the document.  I don't have an

 7     objection to it coming in based upon the fact that a question was asked

 8     upon it, but is the document coming in as a whole or just as to the part

 9     that was presented to the witness.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Bolton.

11             MS. BOLTON:  It's a document authored --

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Whole document or [Overlapping speakers] ...

13             MS. BOLTON:  The whole document, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Overlapping speakers] question that is being

15     asked of the witness.  What do we do about the whole document?  If only

16     asked one question about the document under 5 (f).

17             MS. BOLTON:  I think in fairness, Your Honour, that it's a report

18     prepared by General Kukanjac, and in order to assess the reliability of

19     the information that you should have -- and the context you should have

20     the whole document in front of you.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  How do we do that if we don't have

22     General Kukanjac before us?

23             MS. BOLTON:  Well, in order to understand the context of the

24     document the portion that is being proffered, Your Honour, I think you

25     have to read the document in its entirety.

Page 1515

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  How many pages?

 2             MS. BOLTON:  16, I believe.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  No, Madam Bolton, we have a guidance on that.  You

 4     can't do that.

 5             MS. BOLTON:  Sorry, it's 12 pages in English, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Even that, we have clear guidance on tendering of

 7     exhibits where you just deal with one little sentence in a document of a

 8     number of pages.

 9             MS. BOLTON:  That's fine, Your Honours, and if pages 1 and the

10     current page we're looking at under subsection 4 could be tendered.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  We'll take page 1 and this

12     page admitted into evidence.  May it please be given an exhibit number.

13             And may they please be uploaded separately, Madam Registrar --

14     Madam Bolton.

15             MS. BOLTON:  They'll be uploaded, Your Honour, as 2887A.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Of the two pages.

17             MS. BOLTON:  Yes.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 2887A, once uploaded becomes

19     Exhibit P97, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

21             MS. BOLTON:  May I have 65 ter 10942, please.

22        Q.   Sir, do you recognise the document that appears on the screen

23     before you?

24        A.   Yes, I do.

25        Q.   Who authored this document?

Page 1516

 1        A.   That was done by my office.

 2        Q.   And approximately what time-period?

 3        A.   I think this was done in around February 1992 to prepare for a

 4     visit of the head of the mission.

 5        Q.   Okay.  And if we could move forward to the next page, please.

 6             The purpose of this document was to do what?

 7        A.   The new head of the monitoring mission was scheduled for a visit

 8     to Sarajevo.  His name was Salgueiro from Portugal, and I prepared this

 9     document as briefing notes for his visit.

10             MS. BOLTON:  And this document in its entirety if we could go to

11     the last page, please - it's 19 pages, but I will indicate, Your Honour,

12     that I will ask that only up to 65 ter 003322 -- sorry, this is an ERN.

13     00332219, which I believe is page 9 in the English version, is what I

14     will be seeking to tender ultimately.  And we'll have to have that

15     uploaded into a separate document, Your Honours.

16        Q.   Just with respect to paragraph 49 and 51 of your statement, you

17     indicated that by February 1992 the ECMM missions were having problems

18     with freedom of movement; is that correct?

19        A.   Yes, we were experiencing some problems there.

20        Q.   And in what areas?

21        A.   Mostly, I recall, in the area of Banja Luka and north of

22     Banja Luka which would have been towards the north.

23        Q.   And if we could have page 5 of the document that's on the screen,

24     please, in both English and B/C/S.  Sorry, page 6 in the English and the

25     B/C/S.

Page 1517

 1             Under the heading Bihac, second sentence says:

 2             "Access in the 9th Corps area is restricted."

 3             Do you know who the commander was of the 9th Corps at that time?

 4        A.   The commander of the 9 Corps at that time was

 5     General Ratko Mladic.

 6        Q.   And do you know why they were having difficulties with access?

 7        A.   I'm not quite sure.  But it was the monitor mission members from

 8     Bosnia who were not allowed into the 9th Corps area.  I cannot speak for

 9     any of the monitors that would have been based in Croatia.

10        Q.   Did you have a conversation with a General Ninkovic in this

11     regard?

12        A.   Yes, I.

13        Q.   And what did -- sorry, who is General Ninkovic?

14        A.   General Ninkovic was the JNA commander of the 10th Corps in

15     Bihac.

16        Q.   And what did General Ninkovic tell you about access to the

17     9th Corps?

18        A.   He said that access would be denied by the commander of the

19     9th Corps to members of the monitor mission from Bosnia.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is it your evidence, sir, that both the 9th and

21     the 10th corps were billeted in Bihac?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, my understanding was the

23     9th Corps would have been billeted in Knin and the 10th Corps billeted in

24     Bihac or covering that area.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Then the 9th Corps has been discussed -- well, you

Page 1518

 1     say access in the 9th Corps area is restricted and this is under heading

 2     of Bihac.

 3             THE WITNESS:  Well, I put that down there because it was in the

 4     area of Bihac that I was given this information.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I would kindly ask you for a clarification.  In

 7     line 12 of the count page, you are recorded as having said:

 8             "I said that access would be denied by the commander of the

 9     9th Corps."

10             I said, or he said?

11             THE WITNESS:  No.  That should be he said.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  He said.

13             THE WITNESS:  General Ninkovic, who was the commander of the

14     10th Corps intimated that permission would not be forthcoming from the

15     commander of the 9th Corps to members of the monitor mission from Bosnia

16     going into that area.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

18             MS. BOLTON:  Seeking to tender the eight pages I alluded to into

19     evidence, Your Honour.  Again, we have to have it uploaded separately.

20             MR. IVETIC:  One moment, Your Honours.  We have to consult with

21     the client.

22             MS. BOLTON:  Correction, Your Honours, it is actually pages 1 to

23     9 in both the English and the B/C/S.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But the Chamber still has a problem, Madam Bolton,

25     because you actually used the first page and this page only.

Page 1519

 1             MS. BOLTON:  In the case of this document, however, it's a

 2     document that the witness personally prepared, the contents relate to him

 3     bringing up to date the mission on the -- the new mission commander as to

 4     what had been transpiring under the work of the ECMM.  And, in my

 5     respectful submission, it does contain relevant information.  I can ask

 6     more questions and deal with it in greater detain, but I'm conscious

 7     again of the time.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I note that Mr. Doyle is a 92 ter witness.  Does

 9     he discuss the other pages in his 92 ter statement?

10             MS. BOLTON:  Yes.  The contents of the report are discussed in

11     his 92 ter statement.  It was an annex, and originally we -- it -- it

12     could have been proffered as an associate exhibit.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I was just going to ask you that you question --

14             MS. BOLTON:  And at the time that the initial determination was

15     made we had indicated we would not be, but we reserved the right to

16     tender it if that changed.  And in light of information that came out

17     during proofing we decided to tender it, and therefore it could be, in my

18     respectful submission, tendered as an associated exhibit.  It is

19     discussed by the witness.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Could it be or is it being?

21             MS. BOLTON:  Well, having not -- having not indicated previously

22     we would be seeking to tender it as an associate exhibit I don't feel I

23     can change that position.  We've indicated or provided notice that we may

24     try to tender it in court, and that is my position.  It is discussed in

25     the witness's evidence.

Page 1520

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Madam Bolton.

 2             Yes, Mr. Ivetic.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  I apologise, Your Honours.  I had understood it as

 4     being an associated exhibit, and since it is authored by the witness, I

 5     did not have an objection for this particular document being introduced

 6     in the manner that was foreseen for associated exhibits.  The one issue I

 7     have that my client has just advised me of, while the witness answered

 8     the last question which related directly to Mr. Mladic, there was

 9     apparently a problem with the headphones and he did not actually receive

10     that in a language he understood, so he was asking for that portion to be

11     repeated insofar as it dealt directly with him and he did not have the

12     ability to follow what was being said.

13             But with respect to this document, we do not have an objection.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated] Thank you very much

15     Mr. Ivetic.

16             Madam Bolton, are you able to get the witness to repeat the

17     answer to the question that Mr. Mladic didn't receive in a language he

18     understands that related to, I think, the fact that the commander of the

19     9th Corps was said to be going to refuse access to the area.  And this

20     was being said by the commander of the 10th Corps.  If we can deal with

21     that little part, please.

22             MS. BOLTON:

23        Q.   If you could just very briefly repeat what you told the Court

24     about your conversation with General Ninkovic.

25        A.   When I requested General Ninkovic to find out if members of the

Page 1521

 1     mission from Bosnia could enter into the operational area of the

 2     9th Corps the reply I received from General Ninkovic was that the

 3     commander of the 9th Corps, General Mladic would not allow or would not

 4     permit or give access to members of the monitor mission from Bosnia from

 5     going into his operational area, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 7             Is that okay now, Mr. Ivetic?

 8             MR. IVETIC:  I'm seeing nothing that says otherwise.  So I

 9     believe that that's fine.  Thank you, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  Okay.  The document is now

11     admitted into evidence.  The first nine pages of the document, may it

12     please be given an exhibit number.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, may I receive just a number under

14     which these pages will be uploaded.

15             MS. BOLTON:  10942A.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  10942A will receive number P98, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, Madam Registrar.

18             Yes, Madam Bolton.

19             MS. BOLTON:

20        Q.   Could I ask you, sir, the point in time when you moved to

21     Sarajevo, did you ever have occasion to stay at the Hotel Bosna?

22        A.   The hotel I stayed in for the period of my time in Sarajevo was

23     in Hotel Bosna in Ilidza.

24        Q.   And at any point in time -- sorry.  What kind of area is Ilidza

25     who was the predominant [Overlapping speakers] ...

Page 1522

 1        A.   Ilidza would have been a predominantly Serb area on the outskirts

 2     of Sarajevo.

 3        Q.   When you were first started staying at the hotel, what was the

 4     staff composition?

 5        A.   I can't remember the exact breakdown but certainly there were

 6     Muslims and there were Serbs as members of the hotel staff.

 7        Q.   And did you ever observe a change in that?

 8        A.   Yes.  It was around the period when the dining-room was moved to

 9     the back of the hotel for safety so the conflict had actually started,

10     and there seemed to be a new Serb delegation in authority in the area of

11     Ilidza, and I was invited to a dinner that they were hosting and I

12     noticed at the dinner that all of the regular staff that I had come to

13     know were not there.  So when I raised it, I was told that the Muslim

14     members of the staff had been moved out of the hotel and had been

15     dropped, as the word I learned was dropped off at the centre of Sarajevo.

16     When I inquired as to why, I was told it was because it was for their

17     safety because they were Muslims.

18        Q.   And who give you that information?

19        A.   The -- I don't recall the name of the Serb, but he was the leader

20     of the Serb delegation that was now stationed in Ilidza.  I don't recall

21     his name.  I remember distinctly because I asked was there any Muslim

22     member of staff who was retained, and he said, yes, the chef because he

23     was a good cook was his reply.

24        Q.   You refer in your statement to paragraphs 83 and 85 to receiving

25     a phone call from a Mrs. Banjac and she had expressed concerns to you

Page 1523

 1     about her husband who had been taken into custody by the Serb MUP in

 2     Vrace.  And you indicate in your statement that you had raised the issue

 3     with Mrs. Plavsic and the Serb leadership on the 1st of May, and you were

 4     told that Mr. Banjac would probably be released very soon.

 5             I wanted to ask if there was any delay in your making inquiries

 6     about Mr. Banjac and your receiving that response from the Serb

 7     leadership.  Did they need, for example, to step out of the room and make

 8     some inquiries or a phone call?

 9        A.   No, I raised it as a general issue when I went up to Pale on that

10     occasion.  And nothing had happened for a few days, and I raised it then

11     by contacting Radovan Karadzic, and I was told that he would be released.

12     I followed up on it by contacting this lady and she informed me that he

13     had been tortured badly and that he was now a broken man physically.  I

14     had hoped at some stage I might meet with him but circumstances precluded

15     that.

16        Q.   We -- if I could have 65 ter 18738, please.

17             Sorry, this is P0096 [sic] now.  00096.

18             You recognise the transcript in front of you of a conversation

19     between Mr. Koljevic and a Mr. Karasik?

20        A.   Yes, I do.

21        Q.   Where do you recognise the transcript from?

22        A.   The transcript was given to me by the acting prime minister of

23     Bosnia at the time, a man called Musmir Mamusjehajic [phoen].  He gave me

24     a copy of the transcript.

25        Q.   And when was that given to you?

Page 1524

 1        A.   I think it was around the end of April.

 2        Q.   Of what year?

 3        A.   1992.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Bolton, who do we say Mr. Koljevic is

 5     talking to?

 6             MS. BOLTON:  Mr. Karisik.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Oh Mladjo Karisik.

 8             MS. BOLTON:  Yes.

 9        Q.   There is a reference in the intercept to the withdrawal of some

10     artillery.  What was that in regards to?

11        A.   At the time this happened there were peace talks being held in

12     Lisbon which were being attended by the party leaders.  And in a

13     conversation with Mr. Jose Cutileiro who was working as part the peace

14     conference, I was asked if I would go to Pale to ascertain if the Serbs

15     were complying with what they said they would do which was to withdraw

16     some of the artillery from their firing positions overlooking the city of

17     Sarajevo.  So one of the reasons I went to Pale was to ascertain if this,

18     in fact, was being complied with.

19        Q.   And when did you go to Pale?

20        A.   I went to Pale on the 1st of May.  I tried to get up on the 30th

21     of April, but because there were so many military movements of heavy

22     artillery and tanks on their way to Pale we were unable to get to our

23     destination, so we returned.

24        Q.   Whose artillery and tanks were on the way to Pale?

25        A.   There were armaments from the JNA which were being given to the

Page 1525

 1     Bosnian Serbs in Pale.

 2        Q.   Just going back to the -- to the transcript, when you were

 3     actually given the transcript originally, were you able to listen to the

 4     accompanying audio at that time?

 5        A.   Yes, I was.

 6        Q.   Sorry, at the time that Mr. -- that the acting prime minister

 7     gave it to you?

 8        A.   No.  I was just given the transcript.  I wasn't given any audio

 9     version of that.

10        Q.   And subsequently have you had the opportunity to listen to the

11     audio?

12        A.   Yes.  I was asked if I would listen to it again and if I could

13     identify any of the voices.

14        Q.   And were you able to identify any of the voices?

15        A.   I was able to identify the voice of Nikola Koljevic but not the

16     other person.

17        Q.   And at that time were you given the opportunity to listen to

18     other intercepts and do voice identification with respect to those as

19     well?

20        A.   Yes.  I think I was asked to listen to maybe five or six

21     different conversations.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Ivetic.

23             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, Your Honour, I would ask for where this is

24     located in the Rule 65 ter summary for this witness.

25             MS. BOLTON:  Can I have a brief indulgence, Your Honour.

Page 1526

 1             Your Honour, perhaps I could look for that shortly.  I don't want

 2     to spend too much time just briefing -- I could either take a brief

 3     recess or I could continue on and come back to the issue.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Continue, and you'll come back to the issue.

 5             MS. BOLTON:  Sorry, Your Honour, I couldn't hear your response.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated] Continue and come back

 7     to the issue.

 8             MS. BOLTON:

 9        Q.   You alluded a moment ago to a trip you made to Pale on the

10     1st of May, 1992.  Who did you travel with?

11        A.   I travelled with Mrs. Plavsic and another member of the monitor

12     mission, Mr. Jeremy Brade.

13        Q.   And did you have any conversation with Mrs. Plavsic en route?

14        A.   Yes, I did.

15        Q.   What did she say to you?

16        A.   She spoke about the need for the Serbs to have their own

17     territory and she referred to the fact that because Muslims were

18     generally living in areas of the cities that the Serbs would need about

19     75 per cent of the territory in order to have their fair share.

20             She also surprisingly mentioned to me that if this conflict were

21     to take the lives of 3 million people, we might as well get on with it

22     and carry on.

23        Q.   At that point in time, May of 1992, what was the situation in the

24     city of Sarajevo?

25        A.   The situation was very tense.  The issue of the referendum had

Page 1527

 1     been held, I think I would say that positions were being very much

 2     entrenched, and there was a lot of artillery being fired on the city.  So

 3     movement was very difficult and quite dangerous.

 4        Q.   And where was the artillery being fired from?

 5        A.   We were satisfied that the artillery was being fired from the

 6     area of Pale and the surrounding hills.

 7        Q.   And can you describe the quantity of -- of fire that you were

 8     encountering?

 9        A.   Well, I don't have the exact details, but they were sufficiently

10     frequent to force us into -- to take some cover in the bunkers; in my

11     case, in the bunkers of the United Nations headquarters which were the

12     PTT building in Sarajevo.

13        Q.   You've described artillery being fired into the city from the

14     surrounding hills.  Did you observe any outgoing fire from the city

15     towards the hills?

16        A.   Not that I could discern.

17        Q.   I understand from your statement that a decision was made to

18     withdraw the ECMM monitors from Sarajevo on the 11th of May, 1992 and

19     that you were to be also evacuated at that time, on the 12th of May.

20        A.   Yes, that is correct.

21        Q.   How were you evacuated from the city?

22        A.   I was evacuated by a helicopter belonging to the JNA from

23     Lukavica, and I was in the company of General Aksentijevic, the

24     deputy commander of the 2nd Military District in Sarajevo.

25        Q.   What is Lukavica?

Page 1528

 1        A.   Lukavica is a military base belonging -- or occupied by the JNA

 2     on the outskirts of Sarajevo.

 3        Q.   And when you flew out by helicopter, which direction did you fly?

 4        A.   We flew in a line generally from Lukavica towards Pale because I

 5     was informed by General Aksentijevic there was a requirement to pick up a

 6     member of the JNA who was very seriously injured.

 7        Q.   And as you flew out in the direction of Pale, can you tell us

 8     what you observed?

 9        A.   I was able to observe a considerable range of artillery, heavy

10     mortars and tanks that were on the ridge line between Sarajevo and Pale.

11        Q.   And did you form any opinion or conclusion as whose artillery,

12     heavy mortars, and tanks those were?

13        A.   Well, I assumed that because we were on our way to Pale that they

14     were belonging to the JNA or the Bosnian Serbs, and also the fact that it

15     was a JNA helicopter.  I felt that if it was belonging to anybody other

16     than the Serbs they would have attempted to shoot down the helicopter I

17     was in.

18        Q.   And were you flying at a range that you could have been

19     susceptible to fire?

20        A.   We were flying -- we were flying at a range of maybe 2- or 300

21     feet.  It was quite low.

22        Q.   And were any shots fired at the helicopter?

23        A.   Not to my knowledge, no.

24        Q.   Could I have Exhibit P95, please.

25             Do you recognise this document, sir?

Page 1529

 1        A.   Yes, I do.

 2        Q.   What is it?

 3        A.   It is the report of a meeting I had with

 4     President Slobodan Milosevic in his office in Belgrade.

 5        Q.   At whose instance was that meeting held?

 6        A.   I understand the invitation to meet him came, in fact, from his

 7     office from a liaison officer of the federal army.

 8        Q.   And before attending this meeting, did you have any conversation

 9     with your superiors about what role you would take in the meeting or what

10     positions you would take?

11        A.   Yes.  I informed Lord Carrington of this invitation, and he asked

12     me not to make any arrangements until they gave it some consideration and

13     then I was issued with instructions after that long with the

14     recommendation that I attend the meeting.

15        Q.   What instructions where you given?

16        A.   I was told that I was there mainly for a watching brief.  I

17     should listen to what President Milosevic wished to say to me, and I

18     should accurately reflect in my report the points that he was to bring

19     up.  And then there were a few issues that I should, if the opportunity

20     arose, ask him to do, which, I think, are generally listed on that

21     report.

22        Q.   If I could have page 2 in both the B/C/S and the English.

23             Paragraph 4 indicates:

24             "I stressed that Lord Carrington was anxious for Milosevic to use

25     his influence over Serbian irregulars in BiH and over General Mladic to

Page 1530

 1     end the shelling of Sarajevo."

 2             Was that something you were authorised to say?

 3        A.   Yes, it was.  And I brought that to the attention of the

 4     president.

 5        Q.   And if I could have page 4 in the English version, and also

 6     page 4 in the B/C/S.

 7             There's an indication at paragraph 7:

 8             "Milosevic pointed out more than once that Belgrade had

 9     vigorously condemned the shelling of Sarajevo which had been a futile and

10     criminal exercise for which the perpetrators should be punished."

11             Does this document accurately reflect what Slobodan Milosevic

12     told you?

13        A.   Yes, it does.

14        Q.   Who actually prepared the document?

15        A.   The document was prepared by a first secretary to the British

16     embassy who accompanied me to the meeting, and his task, I had asked him

17     to report on what had happened as accurately as he could but not to be

18     involved in any discussion with the president.

19        Q.   Final document I wish to ask you about, sir, is 65 ter 03344.

20             MS. BOLTON:  Just been advised, Your Honour, that the B/C/S

21     translation of this document is not yet available.  I only wish to ask

22     the witness about two sentences which I propose to read into the record

23     so they will be simultaneously translated.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yeah, you may proceed, ma'am.

25             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you.

Page 1531

 1        Q.   First of all, could you tell us what the London Conference was?

 2        A.   The London Peace Conference was organised by, I think, the

 3     leadership of the United Nations and the British prime minister and all

 4     the leaders of the republics were being invited to see could they come to

 5     some arrangement to end the conflict in Yugoslavia.

 6        Q.   And if I could have, please, the next page, paragraph 5.

 7             There's an indication there that Dr.  Karadzic said that he had

 8     issued instructions to "stop his forces from harassing those Muslims and

 9     Croats who were 'willing' to leave Serbian areas from signing papers to

10     that effect.  He confirmed that any such papers would have no validity in

11     the light of a final settlement."

12             Could you explain what that reference is to?

13        A.   Well, I think it was probably in relation to the fact that it was

14     known that some non-Serbs were being expelled from their home -- homes

15     and their estates, and they were compelled to sign a document, disavowing

16     all ownership of those.  I had an occasion to speak with Dr. Karadzic on

17     this issue myself.

18        Q.   Do you remember what the date was that you spoke to Dr. Karadzic

19     about the issue?

20        A.   I don't have it actually in front of me, but I know it was during

21     peace talks in -- in -- in Brussels, and it would have been -- I think it

22     would have been in August 1992 because he requested to meet me over a

23     photograph that I found in a national paper.

24        Q.   And what was that photograph of?

25        A.   It was a photograph taken of an emaciated prisoner in one of the

Page 1532

 1     detention camps in Bosnia which was given a lot of international coverage

 2     having been discovered, and I think the prisoner in the photograph was a

 3     man called Alic, Fikret Alic.

 4        Q.   And do you recall when the London Conference was?

 5        A.   If I could just have a moment to find out, if I could.

 6             I think it was towards the end of August.  Yes, the conference

 7     took place between the 26th and 27th of August, 1992.

 8        Q.   And did the peace talks in Brussels take place before or after

 9     the London Conference?

10        A.   They took place before that.

11             MS. BOLTON:  I'll be asking to have that document admitted.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I thought you were going to read just two

13     sentences out of it so that they can be translated, madam.  Yeah, that's

14     what I thought I heard you said.

15             MS. BOLTON:  Sorry, I was seeking -- I suppose the translation is

16     not yet available.  If it could be -- I did read those two sentences and

17     if it could be MFI'd.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

19             MR. IVETIC:  No objection.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  To MFI or to admission?

21             MR. IVETIC:  To MFI.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

23     please be given an exhibit number and marked for identification.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 03344 becomes Exhibit P94 [sic] marked

25     for identification, Your Honours.

Page 1533

 1             MS. BOLTON:  Sorry, that was my penultimate document to ask you

 2     about, sir.  The final document is 65 ter 01027.

 3        Q.   I wanted to ask you - while the document is being brought up -

 4     where was the headquarters of the ECMM located?

 5        A.   Zagreb, Croatia.

 6        Q.   Do you recall the address?

 7        A.   It was what we called, referred to as the Hotel I which I think

 8     was the international hotel.

 9        Q.   And did the headquarters have any official stationary that they

10     used for correspondence?

11        A.   We had the logo of the monitor mission which was similar to the

12     logo -- well, it was rectangle but it was the 12 flags of the then

13     European Community, or now known as the European Union, and that was the

14     logo we used on our headed paper.

15        Q.   And where on your headed paper did that logo appear?

16        A.   As best I recall, it was probably on the top left side.

17        Q.   And you have before you now a document, sir, and you've had the

18     opportunity to review this document during proofing?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And based on your review of the document, does it appear to be an

21     authenticity correspondence from the ECMM head of mission?

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Ivetic.

23             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, Your Honour, I believe that this is the

24     document.  I missed the number of the document, but I believe this is a

25     document that is not on the exhibit list for this witness.  It was not

Page 1534

 1     identified for this witness previously, and I believe the witness is not

 2     an author of this document so I can't -- I can't see the witness

 3     authenticating someone else's documents, and I would object to this

 4     process.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You said you missed a number.  The number that I

 6     saw is 01027.  Are you able to identify it now?

 7             MR. IVETIC:  I am not -- then I can -- then I can correct what I

 8     said.  It was first notice to the Defence on 20th of August, 2012, at

 9     4.44 p.m. with respect to this witness.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  So it is similar to the

11     earlier one.

12             MR. IVETIC:  Correct.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So what is your position now?  You're just telling

14     us that.  That's all.

15             MR. IVETIC:  I'm also objecting to witness authenticating a

16     document that he did not author and did not see previously to come into

17     proofing.  It would be a difference if it was a document he saw in the

18     course of his duties, but my understanding of his testimony is he saw it

19     for the first time in proofing.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Bolton.

21             MS. BOLTON:  The jurisprudence of the Tribunal allows, in

22     essence, reliable evidence to come in and we often proffer documents

23     simply through the bar table process and explain where we got the

24     documents.  The issue being one of authenticity, this witness is in

25     position as a result of his role to examine the document and to give

Page 1535

 1     evidence about the fact that it appears to be an authentic document

 2     having reviewed it, and so, in my respectful submission, it should be

 3     completely admissible through this document.  We certainly cannot call --

 4     it has never been the practice of this Tribunal to call the author of

 5     every document before it is introduced.  That would be an impossibility.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Has this witness been shown the name of the author

 7     at the end of the document?

 8             MS. BOLTON:  He has, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can he be questioned through that part of the

10     document.

11             MS. BOLTON:  It won't be of assistance, Your Honour.  I can ask

12     him.

13        Q.   Do you recognise the name of the gentleman at the end of the

14     document?

15        A.   Yes.  Oh, at the end -- the person who signed it, no.

16        Q.   And at that point in time, March 1993, where were you?

17        A.   I was back serving in Ireland, in my home country.

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So you don't even recognise the signature?  You

20     don't know this person [Overlapping speakers] ...

21             THE WITNESS:  No, Your Honour, I don't.  I assume this person was

22     the head of the monitoring mission, but he was unknown to me, and I

23     wouldn't have known who it was at that time, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The other problem is that, Madam Bolton, the logo

25     that you referred to on the left-hand corner of the document is black.

Page 1536

 1     It doesn't show the 9 -- I don't know whether you said the 9 flags or the

 2     9 legs --

 3             THE WITNESS:  Sorry, Your Honour --

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  -- the transcript said the 9 flags.

 5             THE WITNESS:  The stars.  The stars of the European Union.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yeah, that's another problem.  We don't even see

 7     that.  We do see that it is typed "ECMM headquarters, Hotel I, Zagreb."

 8             MS. BOLTON:  Yes, Your Honours.  All I can say is that this

 9     witness has given his evidence with respect to the fact that it looks

10     authentic, and it appears to be on the letterhead notwithstanding the

11     fact that where the -- where he described the logo usually being located

12     that it has not photocopied so that you can see the flags.  Again, we

13     proffer documents all the time through bar table motion without anyone

14     saying anything about the apparent authenticity of the document.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Bolton, I understand the proffering of

16     exhibits through the bar table.  You are not proffering this one through

17     a bar table.  You are proffering it through a witness.  Odd as that

18     practice might be, that is the practice of the Tribunal.  Where parties

19     have failed to tender a document through a witness, they use the wake-up

20     system of the bar table, which I find absolutely odd but that's what

21     happens.

22             Would you like to keep it until then?

23             MS. BOLTON:  I take Your Honour's point.  And I simply didn't

24     want us to be criticised for not having shown it to this witness who is a

25     representative of the mission.  We will seek to tender it through other

Page 1537

 1     means.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 3             MS. BOLTON:  Those are all my questions, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I make one point to clarify a number.  It is

 6     recorded in - just a moment - page 55, line 24, that the document, 3344

 7     becomes Exhibit P94.  In my view that can't be correct, because P94 is a

 8     different document.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, what I said was P99 marked for

10     identification, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated]

13                           [Defence counsel confer]

14             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, the microphone was not activated.  I

15     was not sure if you had something to say.  You mentioned Mr. Lukic's

16     name.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I mentioned Mr. Ivetic's name.  Madam Bolton has

18     said she is turning the witness over to you.

19             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

20                           Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic:

21        Q.   Good day, Colonel Doyle, I have several areas I would like to ask

22     some questions about today to try and better understand your testimony

23     and to clarify some issues that you might have personal knowledge of.  I

24     will again remind you that since we speak the same language we both have

25     to try and have a pause between question and answer and vice versa to

Page 1538

 1     assist those are that are translating these proceedings.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I add, you should both slow down while

 3     speaking.  You're very fast speakers.

 4             MR. IVETIC:  I, for one, am aware of that, and I will endeavour

 5     to assist the translators in that regard as well.

 6        Q.   First of all, sir, I have some questions relating to your role in

 7     the European Community Monitoring Mission.

 8             You just talked about the headquarters being in Zagreb.  What was

 9     the genesis of the decision to have the headquarters in Zagreb rather

10     than in the capital of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia in

11     Belgrade?

12        A.   I have no idea.

13        Q.   Okay.  Then I would like to move to your role within the

14     European Community Monitoring Mission.

15             In your statement, you describe in paragraph 1 that you hold the

16     rank of lieutenant-colonel after 30 years of service in the

17     Irish Defence Forces.  For the sake of establishing context, what rank

18     did you hold in 1991 when you were first deployed to Yugoslavia?

19        A.   I held the rank of commandant.

20        Q.   And did you receive any promotions in rank or commendations

21     relative to your deployment in the Balkans during the 1990s?

22        A.   No, I did not.

23        Q.   In the course of performing your duties with the

24     European Community Monitoring Mission and later as a personal

25     representative for Lord Carrington, did you ever have occasion to meet

Page 1539

 1     and/or speak directly with General Ratko Mladic?

 2        A.   No, I did not.

 3        Q.   I apologise, I'm waiting for the transcript and the interprets to

 4     catch up with us.

 5        A.   That's fine.

 6        Q.   While acting in your role first as a monitor and then later as

 7     head of mission, were you acting in your military capacity; that is to

 8     say, were you subordinated and taking orders from your military superiors

 9     within the Irish Defence Forces, or were you taking orders from

10     civilians?

11        A.   I was taking orders from the headquarters of the monitor mission.

12     I was not taking any orders from my military headquarters in Ireland.

13        Q.   And with respect to yourself, how much briefing or training did

14     you undergo before being deployed to Yugoslavia in 1991?

15        A.   I didn't receive any training, but we did receive some general

16     briefings at Irish Defence headquarters.  However, we were being deployed

17     at very short notice, and I was one of the first to be deployed.  So

18     there was a question of time.  It was important.

19        Q.   Can you quantify for us the amount of briefing that you received

20     prior to deployment?  Are we talking, days, hours, weeks?  Any

21     information you can give would be helpful.

22        A.   I can't remember exactly, but I would say it was probably a full

23     day of briefings.

24        Q.   Did you receive any kind of training or briefing to advise you of

25     the unique constitutional framework of the Socialist Republic of

Page 1540

 1     Bosnia-Herzegovina [Realtime transcript read in error "Yugoslavia"] which

 2     set it apart from other nations and, in fact, other parts of Yugoslavia?

 3        A.   Again, I did not receive any training, but the briefing would

 4     probably have included those areas.  But I don't recall exactly.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm sorry, I'm just -- I know that the witness has

 6     answered.  But, Mr. Ivetic, how is the Socialist Federal Republic of

 7     Yugoslavia set apart from other parts of Yugoslavia?

 8             MR. IVETIC:  If I said that, I misspoke, I was asking about the

 9     Socialist Federal Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  I apologise if I

10     misspoke.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

12             MR. IVETIC:

13        Q.   Colonel, now if I can ask you about the rest of the European

14     Community Monitoring Mission personnel that were deployed into

15     Yugoslavia, do you know if they had to undergo a similar type of training

16     or briefing, as did you, prior to being deployed?

17        A.   I do not know.

18        Q.   Do you at least know whether, prior to deployment, each member

19     state of the European Committee had responsibility for providing its own

20     personnel briefings or information prior to deployment?

21        A.   I can't answer that in any great depth.  I would suggest, of

22     course, that it would be normal practice for people to be briefed by

23     their home armies or departments prior to deployment.

24        Q.   And that -- as part of that briefing that you did receive -- or

25     that you do recall, did it contain briefing of the conflict, as you

Page 1541

 1     called it, in Croatia?  I think that's at paragraph 5 of your statement.

 2     You said your mission was to deter the spread of the conflict from

 3     Croatia.

 4             Did your briefing include instruction on the conflict in Croatia?

 5        A.   It would have included a general indication that there was

 6     conflict in Croatia with some of the details but probably no specifics.

 7        Q.   Would your briefing have included an indication or appraisal of

 8     who was viewed as the bad guy in the Croatian conflict?

 9        A.   I really don't think so, because, as I mentioned, I was one of

10     the first Irish officers to be deployed.  And, therefore, it was very

11     early in this -- in this conflict.

12        Q.   Okay.  I'll move on then --

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Ivetic.

14             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If you can find a convenient moment somewhere.

16     I'm not saying right now.  We're due out at 20 past.

17             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I can -- we can could that

18     now.  I've --

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We can do that now?

20             MR. IVETIC:  Yeah.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

22             Mr. Doyle, again, another break, another 20-minute break.  Please

23     come back at 20 to.

24             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may stand down.

Page 1542

 1                           [The witness stands down]

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We'll take a break and come back at 20 to 1.00.

 3             Court adjourned.

 4                           --- Recess taken at 12.20 p.m.

 5                           --- On resuming at 12.42 p.m.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the witness please be brought in.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8                           [The witness takes the stand]

 9             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Ivetic.

11             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

12        Q.   Colonel Doyle, I now want to ask you, if you were -- at the time

13     that you were first deployed to Yugoslavia spoke any of the local

14     languages of the Yugoslavia with any level of fluency?

15        A.   No, I did not.

16        Q.   Am I correct then that you had to rely on translators for the

17     performance of your duties?

18        A.   Yes, that is correct.

19        Q.   Who provided the translators?  Were they from outside of

20     Yugoslavia or were they locals?

21        A.   Initially, the translators that -- or the translator that I

22     worked with was provided by the authorities in Banja Luka, because that's

23     where I was based.

24        Q.   Okay.  Am I correct then that as you performed your duties you

25     relied upon translators that were provided by either the SDA or the SDS,

Page 1543

 1     that is to say, local officials?  Or was there a professional corps of

 2     translators affixed --

 3        A.   The first translator I had was a Serb.  He was a businessman from

 4     Banja Luka.  I don't know whether he was a member of a political party or

 5     not; I don't know.  Afterwards, the monitor mission started to pick some

 6     of their own people that they selected themselves rather than having

 7     people supplied.  I think it differed in various places.

 8        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Now I see we still have your statement up in

 9     e-court, if we could stay with that.

10             In paragraph 13 of your statement - and you're welcome to follow

11     along in your hard copy - you state there that:

12             "On 13 October the president of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

13     Mr. Izetbegovic, in a unilateral statement declared a state of

14     neutrality.  This meant that the mobilisation was not authorised by the

15     Presidency.  The Serbs within the parliament did not accept this

16     situation, and the Serbs within Bosnia continued to be mobilised?"

17             The first question I want to ask you to clear things up, when you

18     say "unilateral" here in your statement, does that mean that the rest of

19     the Bosnian collective Presidency did not join Mr. Izetbegovic's

20     position?

21        A.   I don't think I can actually answer that because I don't know.  I

22     would assume that because the Presidency was divided ethnically, with

23     different members, that there may have been objections.  But the fact

24     that he announced this as the President of the Presidency, I would have

25     assumed that it had been discussed within the Presidency itself.  But I'm

Page 1544

 1     not sure.

 2        Q.   And I -- I assume that when you talk about the divided ethnicity

 3     of different members, when we talk about the collective Presidency,

 4     during this time-period at least, we're talking about Ms. Biljana

 5     Plavsic, Mr. Nikola Koljevic, Mr. Fikret Abdic, Mr. Stjepan Kljuc,

 6     Mr. Franko Boras, and Mr. Ejup Ganic.  Is that your recollection as well?

 7        A.   Yes, it is.

 8        Q.   Now, in the course of your briefing and preparations for

 9     deployment to Yugoslavia, did your briefing cover the constitutional

10     makeup of this seven-person Presidency and/or the rules of order and

11     procedure for the same?

12        A.   I really can't recall.

13        Q.   And did you, in the course of your deployment, either as a --

14     especially as head of mission, ever order any ECMM personnel to ever

15     research the legal framework or rules of order of this collective

16     Presidency and the methods of voting or official acts of this organ?

17        A.   The briefings that would have been given to the incoming monitors

18     would have included the makeup of the Presidency of Bosnia, but apart

19     from that, rules of procedure, et cetera, would not have normally been

20     included.

21        Q.   Thank you.  And were you aware at the time that the -- that the

22     head of the Presidency, Mr. Izetbegovic, that this was a rotating

23     position that was to transfer to other members of the collective

24     Presidency upon a stated term?

25        A.   I actually don't know.

Page 1545

 1        Q.   Am I correct that within the entire time-period that you were

 2     deployed in the -- in Yugoslavia that Mr. Izetbegovic remained at the

 3     position of the chair and that this was in excess of a year's time?

 4        A.   Yes, he did.

 5        Q.   Now, at paragraph 25 of your statement, you indicate that you

 6     were to maintain contact with the authorities in Bosnia-Herzegovina as

 7     part of your official duties.

 8             Did maintaining contact with the authorities include keeping in

 9     contact with the other members of the collective Presidency of

10     Bosnia-Herzegovina?

11        A.   Yes, it did.

12        Q.   And now in relation to the collective Presidency of

13     Bosnia-Herzegovina, I would like to ask you about 65 ter number 10944,

14     which may have gotten a P number now.  It's a Prosecution document and

15     was annexed and -- it was originally was an annex to your statement.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's P93, Mr. Ivetic.

17             MR. IVETIC:  P93.  That's correct, Your Honour.  Thank you.

18        Q.   This document, as we wait for it to come up, I can give you the

19     background on my question.  This document, you will recall, is a

20     statement from the Presidency of the Socialist Republic of

21     Bosnia-Herzegovina from the beginning of March 1992.  And if we turn to

22     the first page, which we're at now in both languages, Colonel, do you

23     recognise this report relating to the time-period, I believe, the 1st and

24     2nd days of March, 1992?

25        A.   Yes, I do.

Page 1546

 1        Q.   And this wasn't raised in the direct, but this report was

 2     actually authored by yourself.  Is that accurate?

 3        A.   This report was written by myself, yes.

 4        Q.   Now, your report gives the primary cause for tension in the area

 5     as the killing of a Serb and wounding of another at a wedding ceremony on

 6     29 February 1992.  And if we look down further on the page, at item E,

 7     there's a demand that the assassins should be caught:  Two Muslim, one

 8     Croat.

 9             Sir, is it your recollection and am I correct that the reference

10     to assassins here relates to the persons who attacked and shot at the

11     Serb wedding that is it blamed for heightening the tensions in Sarajevo?

12             MS. BOLTON: [Microphone not activated].

13             MR. IVETIC:  Microphone.

14             MS. BOLTON:  Sorry.  Thank you.  Sorry, my microphone wasn't

15     working.

16             My friend suggested that the document indicates that the primary

17     cause of tension was the shooting at the wedding, and that's not an

18     accurate reflection of what is written in the document.  It does indicate

19     tension was heightened as a result of this, but it doesn't say it was the

20     primary cause.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Ivetic, you do say primary cause at line 9 of

22     page 68.

23             MR. IVETIC:  I do see that.  Perhaps I can reformulate it and

24     perhaps ask the witness --

25        Q.   Would you agree that the shooting at the wedding was a

Page 1547

 1     significant factor increasing or heightening the tensions, as this report

 2     indicates?

 3        A.   I -- it was probably a factor, according to the Serbs.  But in my

 4     profession, it was not the main reason.

 5        Q.   And now if I can return to the question I had asked.  Looking at

 6     item E, where it talks about assassins that should be caught and brought

 7     to justice, two Muslims and one Croat, am I correct that the assassins

 8     here relate to the persons who participated in the attack upon the Serb

 9     wedding?

10        A.   Yes.  But I should add here that the word "assassins" wasn't my

11     word.  It was a translation of the exact demands that were laid out by

12     the Bosnian Serbs.  So it was their terminology, not mine.

13        Q.   Fair enough say.  And, for the record, at this time barricades

14     had only gone up in Sarajevo and were not up in the rest of

15     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Isn't that accurate?

16        A.   Yes, I would accept that.

17        Q.   And the other factor that you list, the referendum, had taken

18     place on the entire territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Would you accept

19     that?

20        A.   Yes, I do.

21        Q.   If we could turn to the next page of your report, items A

22     through G.  And it's the second page on both languages, I believe.

23     Would -- would you agree with me that this section is your verbatim

24     recitation of the decisions reached by the Bosnian collective Presidency

25     on this occasion?

Page 1548

 1        A.   As far as I recall, this is what -- these are the terms that were

 2     agreed.  Whether they were implemented or not, I have no idea.

 3        Q.   And, in fact, we don't need to turn to the end of the document,

 4     but do you recall that the -- that an actual written statement was issued

 5     by the Presidency, which you attached to your report?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   If we could focus on item B here before us.  This reflects that

 8     the Presidency acknowledged that results of the referendum would not

 9     prejudice the structure of BiH currently under discussion -- under the

10     auspices of the EC.  These talks to continue as soon as possible.

11             Sir, is the referendum that is being discussed here the

12     referendum on the independence of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And the talks or discussions that were under way as this

15     indicates under the auspices of the EC, am I correct that these were

16     discussions that were being undertaken in the Bosnian Herzegovinian

17     National Assembly, or parliament, among the various Serb, Muslim and

18     Croat elected officials?

19        A.   Well, my understanding is these were the discussions that would

20     have been chaired by the peace conference rather than being discussed

21     inside the parliament because the Serbs had already vacated the

22     parliament and were not part of its structure anymore.

23        Q.   And the discussions in the peace negotiations, the Serbs were

24     participating in that process; is that correct?

25        A.   Yes.  The Serbs were part of -- any time there was peace talks

Page 1549

 1     called, the Serbs were part -- party to that, yes.

 2        Q.   And if we could move to the next page of this document, we see at

 3     the end of the report you state that the decisions were reached

 4     unanimously by the Presidency.  Does that comport with your recollection

 5     that all the members of the Presidency unanimously issued these

 6     statements?

 7        A.   Yes, I would accept that.

 8        Q.   Do you recall if a voting process took place at this session

 9     prior to the statements being used?

10        A.   No, I have no idea.

11        Q.   And now having used the term "unanimous" in this report, does

12     that refresh your recollection when you earlier stated in paragraph 13 of

13     your statement that Mr. Izetbegovic issued a unilateral statement,

14     whether or not there's a difference between the two?

15        A.   I really can't answer that because I don't know.

16        Q.   Okay.  With regards to the mobilisation, I believe you indirectly

17     inferred it in your testimony, but am I correct that anyone who did

18     respond to the mobilisation, whether ethnically a Serb, Croat, Muslim, or

19     one of the other ethnic minorities in Yugoslavia, received armaments as

20     part of the mobilisation.  Would you accept that statement?

21        A.   I would accept that if they were mobilised that they would have

22     been armed.  Whether they would have retained them or not is quite

23     another matter.

24        Q.   Okay.  Am I correct that as tensions developed in

25     Bosnia-Herzegovina, that is to say, after the declaration of

Page 1550

 1     independence, that Mrs. Plavsic, Mr. Koljevic, Mr. Abdic, and eventually

 2     Mr. Boras all stopped participating in the Bosnian collective Presidency?

 3        A.   I -- I can't say that for definite.  At the subsequent talks,

 4     which I would have chaired, it was getting difficult for the Serbs to

 5     come to talks because, at this stage, they had moved to Pale.  But we

 6     continued the normal negotiations by inviting them to attend, and some

 7     occasions they did, and many occasions they didn't.  And we also include

 8     discussions with the JNA on this process.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  What about Mr. Fikret Abdic?  Isn't it correct he

10     left for Velika Kladusa?

11        A.   No.  The very last peace talks that I was involved in Mr. Abdic

12     was present.  And that was leading up to -- attempting to get an

13     agreement on the withdrawal of the JNA from the territory of Bosnia.  My

14     recollection is he attended those talks.

15        Q.   My question was:  Did he continue operating as part of the

16     collective Presidency?

17        A.   I assume that he did.  That would have been my understanding.

18        Q.   Would the Serb members of that collective Presidency who were in

19     Pale have continued to maintain their authority as members of the

20     collective Presidency, in your opinion, as well?

21        A.   My opinion would be no.

22        Q.   Okay.  Did you or anyone at the European Community Monitoring

23     Mission investigate the constitutional and/or legal framework to

24     determine whether the authority of these members of the collective

25     Presidency continued or ceased?

Page 1551

 1        A.   Well, I should point out here that when I returned in

 2     mid-April to Bosnia, I was no longer a member of the monitoring mission,

 3     so I wouldn't have been party to what they were thinking on that.

 4             And in reinforce to the peace conference, I would have understood

 5     that people like Jose Cutileiro and Carrington would have been quite

 6     familiar with -- were trying to come up to a political solution.  But I

 7     wasn't party to it at that stage.

 8        Q.   I appreciate that, sir.  If we could move onto another topic.

 9             Paragraph 28 of your statement, you talk about the Serbian

10     autonomous areas and a briefing paper that you received on the topic.

11             For the record, that was P98 which was used by the Prosecution.

12             If we could call up P98 so the witness has that in front of him.

13             Sir, am I correct that this briefing document does not contain

14     any detailed discussion about the constitutional authority, authority

15     under the Law on Defence, or any other Yugoslav or Bosnian law upon which

16     the Serbian autonomous regions are said to be founded?  Am I correct,

17     therefore, that there was no research performed or that you had no

18     knowledge of these aspects of these autonomous areas?

19        A.   I don't have that document --

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Which aspects, Mr. Ivetic?

21             MR. IVETIC:  I apologise.  Let me break down the question.

22        Q.   I don't see any discussion of the constitutional bases or the

23     bases in laws of Yugoslavia or the Socialist Federative Republic of

24     Bosnia-Herzegovina for these autonomous regions discussed in this report

25     or this briefing.  Am I correct that there is no analysis of that

Page 1552

 1     performed by the European Community Monitoring Mission?

 2        A.   I'm sorry, I'm a bit confused here.  I don't -- is that document

 3     supposed to be in front of me?

 4        Q.   I believe it is.  It is P number --

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  P number 98.

 6             MR. IVETIC:  98.  Yes.  Briefing paper from the ECMM Regional

 7     Mission, Sarajevo, including information on the Serbian autonomous areas

 8     and mandate of the ECMM.

 9             THE WITNESS:  Could I have the page that refers to the autonomous

10     regions because I just have the cover here of it on --

11             MR. IVETIC:

12        Q.   Why don't we turn -- I believe it's somewhere in the second page.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And what's the date of this document?

14             THE WITNESS:  This would have been around February 1992,

15     Your Honour.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Was there an entity called the federal --

17     Socialist Federal Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina at the time?

18             THE WITNESS:  I actually can't recall at this stage.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Was there?

20             MR. IVETIC:  If I could refresh his recollection.

21        Q.   On 7th April, 1992 is when the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina was

22     recognised by the EC.  Is that correct sir?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   So prior to that time, it would have still been part of the

25     Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia as a socialist federated

Page 1553

 1     republic under that republic -- under Yugoslavia.  Is that your

 2     recollection, sir?

 3        A.   The document that I have there does not go into any of the

 4     backgrounds on the issue of the autonomous regions.

 5        Q.   If we go to the next page, this is, I believe, the -- is this the

 6     second or the third page?  Well, if I can ...

 7             Perhaps it might be easier to refer to your statement since you

 8     do mention this annex in your statement.

 9             Paragraph 28 of your statement, sir.

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And you talk about Annex 3 to this statement.  Is this document

12     that we just looked what was Annex 3 --

13        A.   [Overlapping speakers] ... I don't think so.  This is a private

14     document that I prepared, but there was a separate document on the

15     establishment on the autonomous regions.  That could be the document.  I

16     don't think that is the correct reference here.

17             MR. IVETIC:  For the record, Your Honours, that was disclosed to

18     us as Annex 3 of the statement, so I don't know ...whether there's

19     another document that we have not been --

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Bolton.

21             MS. BOLTON:  [Microphone not activated].

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

23             MS. BOLTON:  Sorry, it doesn't -- my microphone keeps -- the

24     light keeps flashing.  It doesn't seem to be working properly.  Is it

25     working now?

Page 1554

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes.  And there's another microphone next to you

 2     there, Madam Bolton, if that one doesn't work.

 3             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you.

 4             He may be referring what I think are pages 8 and 9 of the

 5     document, there's an annex, and I don't know if that's what my friend is

 6     looking for or ...

 7             MR. IVETIC:  I believe it's best to show the witness those pages

 8     and see if that's what he was referring to when he mentioned Annex 3 in

 9     his statement, as I do not know.

10             So that would be pages 8 and 9 of P98.  Sorry.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can you see pages 8 and 9 of P98, Mr. Doyle.

12             THE WITNESS:  Yes, I can see that now.  That's the document, yes,

13     I would have thought it was, yes.

14             MR. IVETIC:

15        Q.   Thank you for clearing that up.

16             And now in this document, there is no analysis of the prevailing

17     laws of Yugoslavia or the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina upon which these

18     Serbian autonomous regions were said to be founded.  Am I accurate in

19     that statement?

20        A.   Yes, I agree that there is no -- there's no detail as -- as

21     you -- as you suggest.

22        Q.   Thank you, sir.  To your knowledge, did anyone at the European

23     Community Monitoring Mission research this topic or obtain a legal

24     opinion on the same?

25        A.   I have no idea.

Page 1555

 1        Q.   I suppose you do have knowledge, since you do mention a crisis

 2     committee several times in your written statement, that the Bosnian

 3     Muslim SDA had also set up crisis committees during this time-period?

 4        A.   Yes.  When I went into discussions at the time that -- of the

 5     referendum I was informed that a crisis committee under Mr. Ganic was

 6     sitting to come up with -- referring to some issues.

 7        Q.   Okay.  I would now to ask you a little bit more about the

 8     referendum and the negotiations that you referenced on the topic of

 9     Bosnia-Herzegovina's future which you discuss in paragraphs 41

10     through 55, approximately.  I'll take them one by one, but I wanted to

11     give you an idea of where we are in your statement.

12             At paragraph 46 of your statement, you describe how, on

13     30 January, Haris Silajdzic sought and received via yourself the

14     assistance of the European Community Mission to run the referendum on

15     independence.  My question for you, sir, is that at the time of this

16     decision to assist the Bosnian Muslims and Bosnian Croats on running the

17     referendum, the constitutionality of the parliamentary vote had not yet

18     been established, had it?

19        A.   Can you -- I'm not sure I understand your question, sir.  Can

20     you -- can you ...

21        Q.   Yes.  At the time that the European Community Commission had

22     agreed to assist in the referendum, the parliamentary vote establishing

23     that referendum had not yet been deemed constitutional by any legal body.

24        A.   Yes.  I sought a meeting with the judiciary of Bosnia on that --

25     on that issue.

Page 1556

 1        Q.   Okay.  Step by step.  Am I correct that you were present for the

 2     parliamentary debate wherein the referendum issue was adopted by two

 3     parts of the body after the Serb delegates had left upon the meeting

 4     being closed.

 5             In your report, which is 65 ter number 10943, which is not an

 6     exhibit, so I think we should call it up.  That's 65 ter number 10943.

 7             And if we could turn to the last page of that document.

 8             And, sir, there's a note there above a signature.  First of all,

 9     sir, is this a document that you prepared?

10        A.   Yes, it is.

11        Q.   And is this note wherein you -- wherein it is stated:

12             "It is expected that the legality of the Assembly being

13     reconvened after it was closed by the Assembly president may be

14     questioned as may the authority of the president of the Assembly to

15     conclude the session without a majority in the first place."

16        A.   Yes, they're my words.

17        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.

18             Am I correct that as you state in paragraph 43 of your statement

19     on the 27th of January, you went to the constitutional court of

20     Bosnia-Herzegovina to try and get an affirmation from that court on the

21     legality of this vote?

22        A.   Yes, I did.

23        Q.   And, to be fair, I'd like to supplement your summary from this

24     paragraph of your statement with your actual testimony in another

25     proceeding and ask you if still stand by it.

Page 1557

 1             MR. IVETIC:  This is transcript page --

 2             Well, first of all, I think -- Your Honours, if I can have the

 3     instructions of the Chamber.  I have this particular transcript in

 4     e-court, and I can show to the witness via e-court so that he has it in

 5     front of him.  I do not intend to tender obviously a transcript from

 6     another proceeding as that would be voluminous.

 7             Would that method be appropriate, to have it on the screen while

 8     I read it?

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yeah.  Just that page would be appropriate.  And

10     if you would let us know in which case that was.  Or let the witness

11     know.

12             MR. IVETIC:  I will, Your Honour.  That is in the Karadzic

13     proceedings on the 26th of May, 2010.  Transcript page 2765 through 2766.

14             And, Madam Registrar, that is 65 ter number 1D118.  And it is

15     page 76 and 77 in the e-court.

16        Q.   And I believe your answer begins at line 17 in the middle of the

17     page, sir.

18             And if you just follow along with me, and I'll start by quoting:

19             "I think to clarify this point, Your Honour, I would just like to

20     say that at the conclusion of this marathon session of the Assembly, I

21     compiled a report to -- to my headquarters and that report gave a general

22     outline as I understood it to be of what the issues were.  I was

23     sufficiently concerned to put in that report the fact that according to

24     the Bosnian Serbs there was a requirement for an agreement to be done by

25     consensus, whereas, most of the people in the parliament seem to be going

Page 1558

 1     along the line of where they are going to pass a referendum if they had a

 2     majority.  What that majority was, I wasn't sure [sic].  I wasn't aware.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  Sorry.

 4        Q.    "But I did put down ..."  --

 5             And now we have to go to the next page to continue:

 6             "... that maybe this is something that needed to be checked out

 7     legally.  So as a consequence of that, I sought a meeting with the

 8     supreme legal court, or whatever, of Bosnia, and I met with them the

 9     following day to find out whether or not the allegations by the Bosnian

10     Serbs that this referendum debate was constitutional."

11             And here, sir, am I correct that the argument would have been

12     that it was unconstitutional.  Is that your recollection?  Is this an

13     error in the transcript?

14        A.   It would have been -- it would have been the assertion by the

15     Bosnian Serbs that it was not constitutional because it wasn't an

16     agreement by consensus.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18        A.   And that's why I sought the meeting with the judiciary, to have

19     them explain to me what their views were.

20        Q.   And, sir, the parts that we've read up until to you, do you agree

21     that that is now - with the one correction - an accurate assessment of

22     your recollections of this [Overlapping speakers] ...

23        A.   [Overlapping speakers] ... yes, yes.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Am I correct that after having a meeting with the

25     senior judicial bodies of Bosnia-Herzegovina, they could not give you a

Page 1559

 1     definitive answer on the legality of this referendum?

 2        A.   Correct.

 3        Q.   And am I correct then that the assistance agreed to be given to

 4     Mr. Silajdzic was undertaken without any legal opinion as to the legality

 5     of the referendum?

 6        A.   Well, I know that the European Union agreed to assist the -- the

 7     process of -- of the referendum, so I -- I can't speak for the

 8     European Union on this.  But I understand your point, yes, and I think

 9     that's a fair comment.

10        Q.   Are you aware of any research being performed either as part of

11     your mission or further up the chain as to this topic?

12        A.   No, I do not.

13        Q.   You had already expressed your concerns to your superiors about

14     the legality of this decision on -- to have a referendum.  Can we then,

15     therefore -- is it safe to say that someone overruled your concerns

16     further up the chain?

17        A.   Well, I put my concerns in the report the concerns that I

18     had that I refer to there.  What was done with that, or how that was

19     countered, I simply don't know.

20        Q.   Fair enough.  And we already talked about the fact that

21     Bosnia-Herzegovina was recognised by the European Community on

22     7 April 1992.  At that time, was there any change in status as to the

23     existence of a legal opinion about the legality of the referendum?

24        A.   Not to my knowledge.

25        Q.   And had there been any change expressed by the Presidency of

Page 1560

 1     Bosnia-Herzegovina to amend their prior statement which you recorded in

 2     the document we looked at earlier from the 2nd of March, 2012, where they

 3     unanimously stated that the referendum could not prejudice the structure

 4     of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 5        A.   Not to my knowledge.

 6        Q.   Did you recommend to your headquarters or your superiors that at

 7     any point in time that the referendum was legal?

 8        A.   No.  I simply felt my duty was to bring up the concerns that were

 9     being expressed.  How they were dealt with or what final decision was

10     made was outside my remit.  So, according, I didn't make any

11     recommendation of my own.

12        Q.   At paragraph 54 of your statement, you indicate that you had

13     asked the members of the Presidency what would happen in

14     Bosnia-Herzegovina would be recognised.  And you're quoted in your

15     statement as saying:

16             "The members of the Bosnian Presidency all said the same thing.

17     They said that they believed the Bosnian Serbs would not be happy with

18     this recognition but that they would come around to accept it ..."

19             Am I correct that what you really meant to say here was that

20     the -- that -- that you spoke with Mr. Izetbegovic and that he said these

21     words?

22        A.   Yes, I would agree with that.  Yes.

23        Q.   You, in fact, did not have contact with the other Presidency

24     members, did you?

25        A.   No.  Except that I -- no, I had contact with Mr. Karadzic over

Page 1561

 1     this issue.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  And ... and the report that you sent to your

 3     superiors as to this -- or at that point in time it was

 4     Ambassador Cutileiro who was asking.  The report you sent back to him

 5     would have clearly indicated that it was only Mr. Izetbegovic who had

 6     said that the Serbs would accept and that they would eventually accept

 7     this situation?

 8        A.   Yes.  The -- I remember distinctly mentioning Mr. Izetbegovic and

 9     Radovan Karadzic.

10        Q.   Am I correct then, sir, that -- that the recognition of -- well,

11     strike that.

12             You -- at what time did you leave the ECMM?  That was March the

13     20th, is that accurate?

14        A.   Yes, around that time I returned to Ireland.

15        Q.   At that time had the decision on recognition already been

16     unofficially reached?

17        A.   I don't actually recall.  I don't recall.

18        Q.   Did you ever make a recommendation in regards to recognition?

19        A.   No, I did not.

20        Q.   Thank you.  From your statement and your testimony, we've

21     mentioned Mr. Alija Izetbegovic several times.  Would it be a fair

22     assessment to state that you had frequent contacts with either him or his

23     office?

24        A.   Yes.  Because there was a liaison office established to assist

25     our mission which was based in the Presidency.  So any time I would go

Page 1562

 1     down there, which was quite frequently, I would often meet the president.

 2     As, indeed, I would meet other members of the Presidency who had offices

 3     there.

 4        Q.   Would it be fair to say that you were also familiar with

 5     Safet Hadzic, the president of the Sarajevo Crisis Committee?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   And did your contacts with Mr. Izetbegovic and other members of

 8     his office continue when you became Lord Carrington's representative

 9     on --

10        A.   Yes, they did.

11        Q.   In both of your capacities, both at the ECMM and as part of

12     Lord Carrington's -- as -- advisor -- representative to Lord Carrington,

13     did you have occasion to have contact with an individual by the name

14     Sefer Halilovic?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   Okay.  Are you aware of Mr. Halilovic having been the Chief of

17     Staff of the Bosnian Muslim armed forces that were -- at that

18     time [Overlapping speakers] ...

19        A.   [Overlapping speakers] ... yes, I was aware of that.

20        Q.   Okay.  Now, how -- well, you already said frequently.

21             Let me ask you this question then, sir.  In the course of your

22     interactions with Mr. Izetbegovic, did you -- did you rely upon

23     information received for them as part of your conclusions and, in

24     particular, I want to direct your attention to paragraph 15 of your

25     statement.  That's the third page in English.  And maybe I should read

Page 1563

 1     it, which part I'm focussing on.

 2              "The community was becoming aware that one section of the

 3     population, namely the Serbs, were becoming armed.  The federal army was

 4     also becoming very much a Serbian army."

 5             And my question for you:  Am I correct that this conclusion is

 6     part based on communications and information you would have received from

 7     officials, such as Mr. Izetbegovic and other members of the SDA?

 8        A.   Yes.  It would have come from the monitor mission primarily that

 9     I was the head of because we had teams deployed throughout the republic,

10     and then it would come from various political members of the Presidency

11     as well.

12        Q.   And for the sake of clarity, when you say here "the community,"

13     are we talking here about the European Community?

14        A.   Yes, I would say that, yes.

15        Q.   And would you agree that this assessment in paragraph 15 would

16     have been applicable to the time-period up until approximately

17     20 March 1992 when you left that position?

18        A.   Yes.  Because early in 1992, we -- the monitor mission was

19     involved in monitoring the withdrawal of federal -- the federal army from

20     Croatia, and the concern of the mission was that if the JNA was being

21     withdrawn from Croatia, where were those JNA units going to end up and

22     had that been agreed in Croatia itself, which I couldn't establish.

23        Q.   Fair enough.  I'd like to present to you some excerpts from the

24     sworn statement of General Sefer Halilovic given to the Office of the

25     Prosecutor in 1996.  It's in e-court as 1D00173.  And I'd like to present

Page 1564

 1     you some aspects dealing from this time-period that we've just discussed

 2     in 1992 and relating to these same SDA officials who were -- or one of

 3     the sources for your conclusions in paragraph 15.

 4             At the bottom of page 2 in the English.  Yeah, there it is.

 5             MR. IVETIC:  This would be appear to be the French.  I apologise.

 6             One moment.

 7             It appears that the French has been uploaded alongside the

 8     English.  If we could turn to the 26th page in e-court.  There we go.

 9     That's the English portion of this.

10             And now if we could turn to the next page in the English.  And at

11     the bottom of the page --

12        Q.   Sir, if I could direct your attention to the last paragraph where

13     General Halilovic says, and I quote now:

14             "My work was approved by Izetbegovic himself, and on

15     2 December 1991, I presented my plan during a meeting in Hrasnica.  At

16     the meeting that day were:  Alija Izetbegovic; two ministers, Munir Jahic

17     and Resad Bektic; as well as the president of the Sarajevo Crisis

18     Committee, Safet Hadzic, and his deputy Mirsad Kebo; plus Safet and Rahim

19     Baltic and Suljo Kepidja."

20             If we could turn to the next page because it continues just one

21     line thereafter.

22             I quote again:

23             "During the meeting of 2 December 1991, in addition to the

24     approval of my defence plan, another important decision was taken:

25     Designations of the headquarters of the Patriotic League."

Page 1565

 1             Sir, first of all, do you recognise the names of these other

 2     officials who are indicated with Mr. Izetbegovic?  Are any of

 3     them [Overlapping speakers] ...

 4        A.   No.  None of them were familiar to me.

 5        Q.   Did, either in your time with the ECMM or later working with

 6     Lord Carrington, did the SDA officials that you had contact with ever

 7     talk about the Patriotic League or headquarters of the Patriotic League

 8     which they had established?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   Can I take it from that, sir, that you were not informed at that

11     time that you were in Bosnia about the existence of a so-called Patriotic

12     League founded by the SDA?

13        A.   I was aware that there was an organisation called the Patriotic

14     League, but the details of it, no.

15        Q.   If we can scroll down to the bottom of this page, I'd like to

16     draw your attention, then, to some other factors.  The last two lines on

17     this page, going onto the -- going onto a couple lines on the next page:

18              "It was obvious that the war was unavoidable, and on our side,

19     in order to confront the situation, we were trying to secure weapons

20     quickly at that time.

21             "This [sic] task had been entrusted to Cengic Hasan, who was a

22     member of the General Staff of the political branch of the

23     Patriotic League, as I have told you.  In order to carry out that task,

24     he had set up a group of people responsible for supplying us with

25     weapons.  The group had succeeded in obtaining some on the black market

Page 1566

 1     in Croatia, Slovenia, Hungary, and Germany.  And according to what I can

 2     imagine, this was made possible through funds which arrived from abroad,

 3     particularly from the countries of the Middle East with which Cengic had

 4     relations."

 5             Colonel Doyle, in the course of performing your duties, did

 6     Mr. Izetbegovic or anyone else at the SDA advise you about the activities

 7     of Mr. Hasan Cengic and the funds coming from abroad for the SDA to

 8     obtain weapons?

 9        A.   The only thing I can say about that is that Mr. Ejub Ganic was

10     the only member of the Presidency to come to me and say that the Muslims

11     were desperate to get some weapons because they were completely

12     out-armed, we'll say, by Serbs.  In other words, I was very conscious of

13     the fact that there was a desire by the Muslims to get weapons because

14     access to them, weapons was very difficult to achieve.

15        Q.   Okay.

16        A.   But the details here I'm not familiar with, no.

17        Q.   If we could scroll down to the third paragraph from the bottom.

18     This is, I believe, the last part I want to show you from Mr. Halilovic's

19     sworn statement, so please bear with me, sir.

20              "Izetbegovic is the one who personally authorised Cengic to do

21     the work of supplying us with weapons.  He could do whatever he wanted,

22     and since secret business deals were involved, no accounting records were

23     kept on the Bosnian side.  In this way, tens of millions of dollars

24     transited through Cengic's hands without any type of control whatsoever.

25             "Throughout the initial period of our defence restructuring, that

Page 1567

 1     is, starting from December 1991, and continuing until the beginning of

 2     April 1992, Cengic was able to organise the arms deals from which he made

 3     enormous personal profit [sic].  No one could oppose him because he had

 4     the moral backing of Izetbegovic."

 5             Colonel, did Mr. Izetbegovic or any of the SDA officials ever

 6     brief you or advise you that they had, already, as of December 1991

 7     undertaken a campaign to obtain weaponry which involved tens of millions

 8     of dollars?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   Am I correct that at the time you were giving your statement to

11     the Office of the Prosecutor and, in particular, paragraph 15 of the

12     same, you did not have this -- any of this information?

13        A.   No, I didn't.

14        Q.   Would you agree with me that such information about steps taken

15     to arm one side of the conflict and preparations for war rather than

16     peace would have been important factors that were relevant to your

17     mission and responsibilities both while at the ECMM and Lord Carrington's

18     representative?

19        A.   Well, I would say that, as I had mentioned before, I didn't feel

20     it was part of my remit to go into the details of weapons and amounts of

21     weapons because I wanted to maintain the trust from all sides.  And I

22     would express surprise that this seems to have been organised back in

23     December 1991.

24             Other than that, I really don't have a comment.

25        Q.   There was a reference to secret transactions.  Do you feel that

Page 1568

 1     the SDA authorities that you were dealing with were keeping this

 2     information secret from the international observers?

 3             MS. BOLTON:  Excuse me, Your Honours.  I don't know how this

 4     witness is supposed to speculate about what was in the minds of the SDA

 5     leadership.

 6             MR. IVETIC:  Let me rephrase the question, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Indeed.  Please do, Mr. Ivetic.

 8             MR. IVETIC:

 9        Q.   In the course your contacts with other international monitors,

10     both in the -- both the successors when you left the ECMM and other

11     organisations such as UNPROFOR, and I believe, also at the time there was

12     at least one other mission on the ground, the OSCE, I believe, had a

13     mission as well, did you ever hear from any of them any information of

14     this nature that -- that preparations were made as far as back as

15     December 1991 by the SDA to obtain armaments and prepare for war?

16        A.   No, none of the detail.  We assumed that all sides were trying to

17     get weapons because of the fears that were amongst the population.  But

18     the detail I have no knowledge of, no.

19        Q.   Okay.

20             If we can now turn to another document, an interview by Mr. --

21     General Sefer Halilovic.

22             MR. IVETIC:  One moment, please, Your Honours.

23                           [Defence counsel confer]

24             MR. IVETIC:  The document in question is 1D00167 in e-court, and

25     I have just one selection from that document to present to the witness,

Page 1569

 1     and that is at page 3 of the interview.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             MR. IVETIC:  And it's the middle of the third paragraph on this

 4     page, in the middle.

 5        Q.   The part I want to draw your attention to, it starts off:

 6             "From 2nd of December onward, we started organising the rest of

 7     the country, and we organised, we established nine regional HQ.  Eight

 8     besides Sarajevan, 98 municipal HQ, and a number of logistics, the

 9     diversionists, entire diversionist units et cetera, the units necessary

10     for waging war.

11             "Before the beginning of the war, we had 126.000 organised men.

12     According to our estimate, although we didn't have exact data, these are

13     the approximate data and they are quite accurate.  There were 80.000

14     armed men.  That's the situation by the end of March."

15             Sir, as far as we're still talking about 1991 to March 1992, the

16     period when you were still with the ECMM, to your knowledge, did your

17     monitors report to you of such a situation in the municipalities, that is

18     to say, where the Bosnian Muslim Patriotic League of the SDA had

19     established 98 municipal headquarters and had 80.000 men under arms and

20     126.000 organised men ready to make war?

21             MS. BOLTON:  I'm sorry, we haven't obviously had the luxury of

22     seeing this document until Defence started cross-examining on it, and he

23     just put to the witness that this has to do with the Patriotic League.  I

24     can't tell from the excerpt that's on the screen if that's an accurate

25     statement or not of the evidence, and so I see by the time, perhaps we're

Page 1570

 1     coming towards the end of the session, if I could have the opportunity to

 2     look at the documents obviously overnight, I can indicate whether or not

 3     I think the question is fair tomorrow.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Ivetic.

 5             MR. IVETIC:  Well, Your Honours, we just got -- the previous

 6     document by Mr. Halilovic talked about this.  It said that his task was

 7     to create headquarters for the Patriotic League, and now he's talking

 8     about the number of those headquarters.  But I leave it up to

 9     Your Honours.  It doesn't matter who established them.  I'm asking

10     whether this situation was on the ground.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Ivetic, you even didn't put on the record

12     what kind of document that we are looking at.

13             MR. IVETIC:  I apologise --

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Overlapping speakers] ... just mentioned a number

15     of a document, but nobody knows what it is about.

16             MR. IVETIC:  I mentioned it was being an interview of

17     Mr. Halilovic, Your Honour.  I thought I had.  I apologise if I had not.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  An interview to whom?  When was it taken?

19             MR. IVETIC:  I would love to know, Your Honour.  This is how it

20     was disclosed to us by the Prosecution.  Without that information.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You are using it, and we would like to know a

22     little bit more about the provenance of this document.

23             MR. IVETIC:  There is apparently no translation, Your Honours,

24     into B/C/S.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We have heard, Mr. Mladic.

Page 1571

 1             The B/C/S booth, can we get help?  We are told there is no

 2     translation into B/C/S.

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  The B/C/S booth is working fine, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, ma'am.

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Obviously Madam Bolton says she's seeing

 7     this document for the first time, and she would like to be able to make

 8     sure that she's on firm ground if she does object or whether she doesn't

 9     have an objection to make.  It's time to stop.

10             Would that be a convenient time to stop?

11             And we can start with Madam Bolton tomorrow to tell us whether

12     she has gone through the document.

13             MR. IVETIC:  That would be fine, Your Honour.  I would just only

14     add that since this is a document that came from the Office of the

15     Prosecution, if she could also advise us of its provenance and give us

16     the information that Judge Fluegge was asking for, since that is

17     information that is not in the possession of the Defence and is

18     information that I would be interested in.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well, I'm not quite sure whether, at this stage,

20     when it is now being tendered by the Defence, it's the responsibility of

21     the Prosecution to tell us about its provenance, which provenance was not

22     sought when the document was received by you.

23             I suggest that you sort that out outside court, and if you still

24     need to -- the question of the provenance, we can talk about it tomorrow

25     too.

Page 1572

 1             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Doyle.

 5             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just to warn you that you -- we are going to break

 7     now until tomorrow.  Because you're still in the witness box, you may not

 8     discuss the case with anybody, least of all anybody from the Prosecution.

 9             THE WITNESS:  Certainly, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Until you are excused from further testifying.

11             As from tomorrow, we are scheduled to start at 9.30 and not at

12     9.00, so be back here tomorrow morning at 9.30 in the morning.  Same

13     courtroom.

14             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You are excused.  You may stand down.

16             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

17                           [The witness stands down]

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We stand adjourned to 9.00 -- 9.30 in the morning

20     tomorrow morning.  Same courtroom.

21             Court adjourned.

22                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m.,

23                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 24th day of August,

24                           2012, at 9.30 a.m.