Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1573

 1                           Friday, 24 August 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.53 a.m.

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning to everybody in and around the

 7     courtroom.

 8             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

10             This is the case IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Madam Registrar.

12             Could we have the appearances, starting with the Prosecution,

13     please, for the day.

14             MR. GROOME:  Good morning, Your Honours.  For the Prosecution

15     today I am Dermot Groome, along with Lorna Bolton and Julia Lee, and we

16     are assisted by Ms. Janet Stewart and Ms. Bojana Vuleta.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  And for the Defence.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  For the Defence this

19     morning are present Branko Lukic, Milos Saljic, Miodrag Stojanovic, and

20     Dan Ivetic.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic.

22             As always, let's start off by placing on the record that the

23     Chamber continues to sit pursuant to Rule 15 bis for the same reason as

24     we did yesterday.

25             The Chamber just wants to apologise to everybody for the late

Page 1574

 1     start today.  It's occasioned by the fact that the system -- our IT

 2     system went down.  It was a problem beyond anybody's control.

 3             Yesterday the Prosecution brought to the attention of the Chamber

 4     that it takes issue with the accused's misbehaviour in court.  In

 5     particular with incidents of insults directed by the accused to the

 6     witnesses and his practice of shouting instructions to the Defence team.

 7     The Defence asked for time, and we would like to hear from you,

 8     Mr. Lukic, if you have any response.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour, we do.  Thank you.

10             So we are ready to answer your questions in regard to shouting

11     incident by our client two days ago.

12             First of all, we want to thank you, Your Honours, for giving us

13     the time to investigate ourselves what happened on that occasion.

14             Secondly, we want to inform Your Honours that we are taking this

15     issue very seriously.

16             The whole team is aware of Mr. Mladic's poor health, and

17     according to medical documentation we have at this moment, and given his

18     history of having suffered three strokes, he is readily irritable and

19     easily agitated.  This is the reason why we have more members of our team

20     in the courtroom so that we are able to consult, constantly communicate

21     with Mr. Mladic, and to try and soothe his anxiety.

22             As a pretext, Your Honours should know that the tone of voice

23     Mr. Mladic uses in court is considered normal when communicating with the

24     members of our team.  We have to say that it is not alarming to us

25     anymore, but we do understand that the Court is not in the same position

Page 1575

 1     to let -- to let it go unnoticed.

 2             I will now address the conduct of each member of our team.

 3             Mr. Stojanovic and Mr. Ivetic were helping me with the documents

 4     and with the exhibits and all three of us were mostly concentrated on the

 5     witness.  At the same time, both Mr. Stojanovic and Mr. Ivetic stood up

 6     many times to approach Mr. Mladic on that day and to calm him down, since

 7     he was obviously very upset with the testimony of Mr. Van Lynden.

 8     Mr. Saljic also stood up several times to take written messages from our

 9     client and to talk to him.

10             I was completely unaware of any words or sentences pronounced by

11     Mr. Mladic.  I did hear his voice in the background, and so I asked

12     Mr. Stojanovic on several occasions to talk to Mr. Mladic.  This was only

13     if I noticed that Mr. Saljic, having both headphones on his ears, did not

14     hear Mr. Mladic at all.

15             Mr. Groome said that he tasked one of his members -- one of the

16     members of his team to follow what Mr. Mladic said in the courtroom, and

17     that is probably the only way to be able to hear what he said during the

18     cross-examination of the witness.

19             With regard to the proposal of the Prosecution that the

20     microphone of Mr. Mladic be kept on, respectfully, that would endanger

21     the right of the accused to communicate with counsel and assist counsel

22     in this case where he have already had to suffer a lot of handicaps that

23     prevent us from working with full efficiency and require us to need to

24     communicate in the courtroom more and would be doable time on tasks in

25     the courtroom, due to the fact we do not have a full pre-trial period

Page 1576

 1     with the Prosecution documents which were only given to us late, just

 2     before trial started and just after trial started.

 3             To eliminate the ability to have counsel/client communications in

 4     the courtroom would be a further blow to the rights of the accused and to

 5     the fairness of the proceedings.  We must urge the Chamber to consider

 6     that also with the set-up of this courtroom, Mr. Mladic is further away

 7     from counsel than in the other courtroom, which is another factor that

 8     adds to the situation.

 9             Mr. Mladic reacts due to a frustration with the process that has

10     seen whereby he has complained of serious health problems that prevent

11     his from sitting -- prevent him from sitting the number of hours and

12     morning hours that we are sitting.  He is further frustrated by his

13     perception that the Prosecution, in his mind, hides documents and late

14     discloses them constantly.  And when he then perceives witness are

15     telling untruths towards him to -- he overreacts, and often it is before

16     we can do anything about it.

17             We, on the Defence, are constantly trying to tell him to speak

18     more softly and not to make outbursts and even come over to him to try to

19     eliminate the amount of shouting that occurs.

20             So, however, this Court has to remember that Mr. Mladic is a man

21     who has had three strokes and is not 100 percent recovered.  His health

22     is diminished and all these factors frustrate him, and his frustration

23     has caused him to overreact.  He has already told you he is unable to

24     prepare breakfast to himself due to these early sitting hours and his

25     deteriorating mobility.  He has already told you about problems with food

Page 1577

 1     he is given and that he often goes without eating any of it.  For a man

 2     of his health to sit tired, sick, and hungry for so long and then listen

 3     to emotional and heated evidence is just simply too much at times.  We

 4     also learned two days ago that if he doesn't eat, the medicine for his

 5     high blood pressure wouldn't have any effect at all, so not only that he

 6     has that high blood pressure but having had those medicines on empty

 7     stomach does not do any good to him.  But still we promise that we will

 8     do our best in the future to talk to Mr. Mladic, to calm him down, and to

 9     try to eliminate any outbursts in this courtroom.  Of course, it would be

10     much easier for us in Courtroom I where we are much closer to our client

11     and we can communicate more swiftly and more often.

12             Thank you, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

14             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We've heard what you have said.  You've told us

16     why Mr. Mladic gets irritable.  You haven't told us why Mr. Mladic reacts

17     by insulting people.  I would like to understand why he insults people.

18             We all have our ailments as we here.  None of is 100 percent

19     healthy.  We all have our irritations, but we still treat one another

20     with decency.  I want to know why he insults people in court when they

21     are giving evidence and why you as the team, the Defence team, do not

22     control him and tell him not to insult people.  And that he can be heard

23     by people on the Prosecution side and none of you on that side doesn't

24     hear -- doesn't hear him.

25             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, I tried to explain, if I may --

Page 1578

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm saying to you your explanation doesn't explain

 2     the issues that I have just raised with you.  You are not telling me why

 3     in his irritation he reacts by insulting people.  You're not telling me

 4     why your team doesn't hear those insults.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  I tried to explain you that, that that tone is usual

 6     tone to us, so we don't react with surprise when he shouts or yells.  He

 7     talks to us in the same way.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But you -- that -- you're not answering my

 9     question.  Precisely because of that tone which is normal to you, you

10     should hear him and you should hear his insult and you should react to

11     it.  And why don't you?

12             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honours, I think that you remember that I was

13     crossing the witness [Overlapping speakers] ...

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm not saying you, Mr. Lukic.  I'm saying your

15     team.  Your entire team.  There are four of you in court here.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, that's exactly why we have so many team members

17     in the courtroom.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's right.  And none of you can hear him saying

19     insults and he can be heard by people on that side?

20             MR. LUKIC:  If you -- we tried to explain that.  Mr. Groome

21     employed one of his members to exactly follow what Mr. Mladic is saying.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You tell your client - I know he is listening, but

23     you tell him - that if he wants to stay in this court and listen to his

24     trial he must behave.  If he doesn't behave, this Court has measures it

25     can take.  Okay?  And behaviour means he must sit quietly there.  If he

Page 1579

 1     has anything to say to you, he must write you a note, give it to you, and

 2     if he has to talk to you, he must talk softly, and he must stop insulting

 3     witnesses who come into this Court.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 6             Mr. Lukic, how much longer are you likely to be with this

 7     witness.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  It's Mr. Ivetic again, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I beg your pardon.  Mr. Ivetic.

10             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, I anticipate finishing sometime in the

11     middle of the next session.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honours, I'm sorry for interrupting.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

15             MR. LUKIC:  Can we go to a private session for one minute or two.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

17          [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber]

18             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in private session, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

20             Yes, Mr. Lukic.

21             MR. LUKIC:  I just want kindly to ask Your Honours to listen to

22     Mr. Mladic.  If you want to hear explanation from him, maybe that would

23     be better -- the best.  He just needs one or two minutes, why he shouted

24     at that time.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I don't think the Chamber is interested to hear

Page 1580

 1     why he shouted.  The Chamber would have wanted to know why he insults

 2     people, and if he is not going to answer that, the Chamber is not

 3     interested.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Can I just briefly approach my client.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yeah, approach him.

 6                           [Defence counsel confer]

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Then can I communicate the message from

 9     General Mladic to Your Honours?

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may.

11             MR. LUKIC:  He is also telling me that he -- he feels sick.  He's

12     sorry that he insulted anybody and he has no intention to insult anybody

13     in the future, and he wants to apologise to everybody who heard what he

14     said at that moment -- at that time.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's a much better response.

18             May we move into open session now.

19             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into open session.

21                           [Open session]

22             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

24             Madam Bolton, given what Mr. Ivetic mentions -- mentioned a few

25     minutes ago, that he will probably be done with the witness in the next

Page 1581

 1     session, how does this impact on your witness scheduling?

 2             MS. BOLTON:  We think there will be time to perhaps deal well one

 3     brief witness after, and that would be RM115 in today's session.  And

 4     then we will -- we've talked to the Defence.  We would purport on Monday

 5     to deal with RM147, and once that individual is done, RM128.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Thank you so much.

 7             May the witness please be brought in.

 8             MS. BOLTON:  Did Your Honours wish to hear the objection while

 9     the witness is being brought in or a -- we had left off the session

10     yesterday with the issue of whether I had an objection to a question.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Indeed, Madam Bolton.  Thank you so much.  Yeah,

12     can we hear you.

13             MS. BOLTON:  Certainly.  So first there was just an issue I

14     wanted to respond to with respect to the provenance of the document that

15     Mr. Ivetic had raised, indicating he didn't know the provenance of the

16     documents.  I should just indicate that that information is available in

17     the EDS system, and if needed the Prosecution can assist him in locating

18     that, but the document in question he was asking about was the second

19     interview of Sefer Halilovic, and the provenance of that document is that

20     it was obtained from Brian Lapping Associates, which is a film and

21     production company.  So if that assists my friend it was some kind of an

22     interview and that's a company that, as I understand it, produces

23     documentaries.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you Madam Bolton.

25             MS. BOLTON:  So with respect to the objection, Your Honour, it

Page 1582

 1     had to do with a question that was page 1569 of the transcript.  It

 2     probably would assist Your Honours if you had that before you.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated]

 4             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5             The question then was posed after my friend read a portion of

 6     that Halilovic interview I just alluded to to the witness, and the

 7     portion that was read to him is set on page 1569 at approximately lines 5

 8     to 14, and my objection to the question is threefold.  My primary

 9     objection is the question -- the way the question is worded, it

10     presupposes facts not in evidence and that the witness wasn't given a

11     fair opportunity to respond to.  And the second and third objections have

12     to do with the way the question was worded, that it misrepresented what

13     the actual document said.

14             So if I could deal with the issue of not giving the witness a

15     fair opportunity.  The question as worded says -- and I'm looking at

16     lines, approximately, 16 and on:

17             "Did your monitors report to you of such a situation in the

18     municipalities, that is to say, where the Bosnian Muslim Patriotic League

19     of the SDA had established 98 municipal headquarters and had 80.000 men

20     under arms and 126.000 organised men ready to make war?"

21             And my problem with the wording of the question is that the last

22     part of the question, where he says: "Where the Bosnian Muslim Patriotic

23     League had ..." and continues on to state those facts, presupposes that

24     those are, in fact, true without ever having asked the witness, Do you

25     have any knowledge as to whether, in fact, what is indicated in

Page 1583

 1     Mr. Halilovic's statement was or wasn't true.  It just sort of skips that

 2     step and now the witness has no opportunity to say, Well, I have no

 3     knowledge of whether that's true or not.  So whether it was reported to

 4     me or not, is a separate issue.

 5             Secondly, in terms of the way the question is worded, the first

 6     paragraph alludes to the establishment of nine regional headquarters, and

 7     my friend has indicated those are of the Bosnian Muslim Patriotic League

 8     in his question.  And that simply isn't included, that information in the

 9     portion that was put to the witness.  So he's added some information that

10     isn't actually in the statement that was read to him.

11             And, finally, he suggested that these headquarters and the 80.000

12     men were in the municipalities by the way he has worded his questions.

13     And, in fact, when I read the first paragraph that was quoted to the

14     witness, I don't read it as applying only to the municipalities.  It

15     seems to be Bosnia-Herzegovina as a whole.  There's certain no indication

16     in that paragraph that we're talking about that number of men in the

17     municipalities.

18             So those are my objections, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Madam Bolton.

20             Mr. Ivetic.

21             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, just briefly.  I think as Your Honours

22     have seen with other documents that I've shown to the witness, I'm not

23     seeking to admit these documents or asserting them for the truth of the

24     matter asserted, I'm using them to -- I give a bases for questions and

25     inquiring of the witness what types of knowledge were or were not

Page 1584

 1     available to his mission while he was a member of it.

 2             I have therefore presented a quotation, I asked the question, the

 3     witness is free to answer the question any way he has knowledge of it,

 4     whether he does or does not.  That's what I have been doing with the

 5     other questions.

 6             With respect to the municipalities issue, I don't know whether

 7     counsel is aware, but Bosnia-Herzegovina only consists of municipalities

 8     at that time.  That was the entirety of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

 9     municipalities.  The municipal opstina was the administrative unit that

10     comprised what would be the equivalent of counties or some other type of

11     geographic subdivision.  So when I say "municipalities" I mean the

12     entirety of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  I apologise if that was not clear from

13     the question, and I leave it to Your Honours whether we can have the

14     witness's assistance to find out the answer to the question.

15                           [The witness takes the stand]

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I think the objection is going to be upheld,

17     Mr. Ivetic.  I would -- in addition to Madam Bolton's arguments, your

18     questions are too compound.  You're asking -- if you take them one fact

19     at a time, the witness will be able to understand exactly what it is

20     you're asking for and he will be able to answer your question.  This kind

21     of objection would be obviated.

22             Thank you so much.

23             Good morning to you Mr. Doyle, and I'm sorry that you've been in

24     the courtroom for sometime and we're talking as if you are not here, and

25     that also that you waited outside for some time.  We had technical

Page 1585

 1     problems in the morning, that's why we started late.

 2             Just to remind you that you are still bound by the declaration

 3     you made at the beginning of your testimony to tell the truth, the whole

 4     truth, and nothing but the truth.

 5             THE WITNESS:  I understand, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Doyle.

 7             Yes, Mr. Ivetic.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 9                           WITNESS:  COLM DOYLE [Resumed]

10                           Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic: [Continued]

11             MR. IVETIC:

12        Q.   Good morning again, Colonel.  I would like to break down the

13     question I asked and ask you sir:  As part of the European Community

14     Monitoring Mission, did your organisation have any knowledge reported to

15     them about the SDA having 80.000 men under arms in the -- on the

16     territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina during the relevant time-period?

17        A.   No, it did not.

18        Q.   Did your organisation have knowledge of the establishment of 98

19     municipal headquarters on the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina by the SDA

20     at that time --

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Ivetic, do you want to know whether the

22     organisation had knowledge or whether the witness had knowledge.

23             MR. IVETIC:  I apologise.  You're correct, Your Honour.

24        Q.   Sir, did you have knowledge of the establishment of 98 municipal

25     headquarters by the SDA on the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

Page 1586

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Bolton.

 2             MS. BOLTON:  Yes, I'm sorry.  The way the question is worded, I

 3     still object to.

 4             The question of whether he had knowledge is only relevant if, in

 5     fact, the fact is true.  So if, in fact, there were 80.000 men, then

 6     whether or not he knew about it is relevant.  But without asking him if

 7     that's a fact that he knew to be true, then there's no relevance to

 8     whether he knew something that may or may not have been true.

 9             It may just be the way that it's worded.  It may be that my

10     friend is actually trying to ask, Are you aware -- or, you know, is that

11     something that you can confirm or deny.  But it's the way it's being

12     worded that I object to.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Ivetic, any response?

14             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I believe I have been very clear and I

15     think that the question is proper, but I will be guided by Your Honours

16     in any way that you decide.  Thank you.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Doyle, do you know of the strength of the Army

18     of the Bosnian -- the strength of the Bosnian army at the time that

19     Mr. Ivetic is asking about?

20             THE WITNESS:  No, Your Honour, I did not.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

22             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour, for your assistance.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated] You're welcome.

24             MR. IVETIC:

25        Q.   Sir, during your contacts with Serb personnel in

Page 1587

 1     Bosnia-Herzegovina during the time-period that you were part of the

 2     mission and part of Lord Carrington's separate negotiating team, did

 3     these Serb personnel complain to you of the existence of SDA-sponsored

 4     armed paramilitary groups?

 5        A.   No, not specifically.

 6        Q.   Based upon -- strike that.

 7             Would you agree with me that whatever the number of these armed

 8     Bosnian Muslim personnel on the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina, that

 9     they were paramilitary in nature?  That is to say, illegal.

10        A.   No.  The monitor mission and I personally was aware that there

11     was a considerable amount of Bosnian Serbs that were not members of the

12     JNA but were termed by us to be paramilitary.  The exact break down of

13     them we didn't have knowledge of.  At that time there was a lot of people

14     moving about who were bearing arms.  They didn't wear uniforms.  So the

15     mission would have collectively referred to them as paramilitaries.

16        Q.   And, sir, you have limited your answer to Bosnian Serbs.  Would I

17     be correct that Bosnian Muslims who were not a part of the JNA at that

18     time walking around armed were also paramilitaries under that definition?

19        A.   Yes, I would say there were.  But the comparison in numbers was

20     extremely unequal.

21        Q.   Would you agree with me that insofar as the assertions of

22     Mr. Halilovic were unknown to you at the time, that they would have to be

23     investigated in order to reach a full and accurate assessment, as in

24     paragraph 15 of your statement, as to which parties were armed - and I do

25     apologise -- oh, you do have your statement, paragraph 15 of your

Page 1588

 1     statement - and the assessment that you made therein?

 2        A.   I would say the monitor mission at that time was not -- it wasn't

 3     its role to actually ascertain numbers, figures, or armaments.  As I

 4     previously explained, it was important for us to hold our impartiality.

 5     Therefore, we weren't in the area of investigating numbers or armaments

 6     of that nature.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  For the record, the statement is P91.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Judge Fluegge.

 9        Q.   Colonel Doyle, would you agree with me that at that time that

10     we're talking about, let us say 1991 up through March of 1992 when you

11     were with the European Community Monitoring Mission, during that time the

12     JNA was the legitimate armed force of the socialist federated republic of

13     Yugoslavia, of which Bosnia-Herzegovina was still a member?

14        A.   Yes, I agree.

15        Q.   Sir, General Halilovic asserted the existence of diversionary

16     units on the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Would you agree with me

17     that such units are usually clandestine in nature and utilise sabotage

18     and subterfuge to obtain mission objectives?

19        A.   I'm not familiar with the term "diversionary units."  I don't

20     know what they mean.

21        Q.   Fair enough.

22             MR. IVETIC:  If we can briefly turn to Prosecution 65 ter 10944.

23     And I apologise, let me just check to see if that one has a number.

24     That's P93.  And once that comes up on the system, if we can look at the

25     first page in English.

Page 1589

 1             And, sir, while that is coming up on the screen I can give you an

 2     introduction.  This report authored by you from March 1992 memorialises

 3     several demands of the SDS that you were relaying as part of your report,

 4     and it -- one of the demands is for disbandment of the, quote/unquote,

 5     Green Berets who are identified as the special security for the SDA

 6     party.  And I wanted just verify with you, would this be the Bosnian

 7     Muslim political party affiliated with Mr. Izetbegovic that we had

 8     discussed yesterday?

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Bolton.

10             MS. BOLTON:  I'm sorry, maybe I'm slow, I'm just not seeing the

11     reference to Green Berets on that page.  Am I missing it?  Oh, yes, no,

12     thank you.  Sorry, it's the last line.  My apologies.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Ivetic.

14             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

15        Q.   Colonel Doyle, am I correct that the Green Berets were the

16     special security for the SDA party of Mr. Izetbegovic?

17        A.   Yes, I'd say they were, but I'm -- the reference directly to

18     Izetbegovic I don't think is accurate.  It was the special security for

19     the SDA, not necessarily the president.  You referred to the SDA party,

20     and then you referred to President Izetbegovic.  I would agree they were

21     part of the SDA party.  Not necessarily -- you're saying that as if they

22     were personally his troops.  That's not the reference I would --

23        Q.   I apologise for a poorly worded question and I thank you for your

24     explanation, which answers what I was asking.

25             Now, I want to turn to paragraph 63 of your statement.

Page 1590

 1             MR. IVETIC:  And, if in the meantime, we pull up in e-court

 2     Prosecution 65 ter number 10969.  Sir, in this paragraph of your

 3     statement you discuss the Croatian element in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and I'd

 4     like to present to you this document and ask you to confirm whether, in

 5     fact, this is also a report authored by you while part of the European

 6     Community Monitoring Mission?

 7        A.   Yes, it was my report.

 8        Q.   Okay.  And with respect to the first page of the report, and if

 9     we can zoom in on the second half.  It starts at the middle of the page

10     and goes down.  We have here you have stated:  "We have in territory Neum

11     a de facto invasion of Bosnia-Herzegovina by the Croatian Army.  There

12     are large numbers of Croatian soldiers involved, but they are described

13     by the Croatian Army as local defence forces, which the Croatian Army

14     cannot control.  These local defence forces are (admitted by Croatian

15     Army) equipped, organised, and advised by the Croatian Army.  They use

16     Croatian Army trucks with Croatian Army markings, have new rifles, new

17     uniforms, new steel helmets, and come to work every evening from the Neum

18     and Metkovic areas [sic]."

19             Sir, my first question in relation to this is would you agree

20     with me that these facts also need to be considered in regards to your

21     assessment at paragraph 15 of your report, that one side in Bosnia was

22     becoming armed, and would you agree with me now having been reminded of

23     the words in your report?

24        A.   The report was made out after I paid a visit to the area of Neum

25     and expressed my surprise at the open way in which Croatian flags and

Page 1591

 1     troops wearing -- Croatian uniforms were being worn, and I felt obliged

 2     to bring the content of my findings both to the monitor mission and to

 3     the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 4        Q.   And would you agree with me that this information is relevant to

 5     your assessment in paragraph 15 of your statement that only one side was

 6     being armed in Bosnia-Herzegovina?  To complete the picture and

 7     supplement your assessment.

 8        A.   Yes, you could make that assertion all right.

 9        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Do you happen to know approximately how many

10     Croatian Army troops had crossed over into Bosnia-Herzegovina with new

11     rifles and new uniforms that are the subject of your report here that we

12     have in front of us?

13        A.   No, I don't have any idea of the exact numbers.  These are

14     reports that were given to me by people who lived in the area.

15        Q.   If we can turn to the next page, I think we can then also talk

16     about some other matters that people in the area told you.  On the next

17     page at the top -- starting at the top.  I will not read the entire

18     section, but you are welcome to refer to any section there.

19             Sir, in this part of the report you talk about the ECMM

20     investigation that went and talked to villagers and found that contrary

21     to the complaints made by the mayor of Neum, the local villagers had no

22     problems with the JNA and that the JNA did not abuse them and was well

23     behaved but, in fact, the Croatian Army forces were threatening and

24     abusing villagers.

25             Is that -- does that comport with your recollection of what the

Page 1592

 1     results of the ECMM investigation in this area revealed to you?

 2        A.   Well, if I can briefly explain here, the monitor mission in

 3     Bosnia-Herzegovina did not carry out any investigation.  This would have

 4     been done by the monitor mission in Croatia itself that would been of

 5     covering those areas from where those troops may have come from.  Now, as

 6     I previously explained, communications between both sides of the monitor

 7     mission were not open and clear at that stage, so I was basing this on

 8     information I would have received and on reports that may have been given

 9     by the monitor mission on the other side.

10        Q.   Thank you, sir.  And, sir, am I correct that despite the fact

11     that you reported up to your superiors the existence of these Croatian

12     troops on the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina, that, in fact, there were

13     no public proclamations by the EC condemning the presence of these troops

14     on this territory?

15        A.   I have no knowledge of whether there was not at that time.  I

16     can't -- I can't say whether there was any pronouncement or not.

17        Q.   Would you expect that any pronouncements that were made would

18     have been made and available to you, that you would know about them?

19        A.   No, not necessarily.  I had very little political contact

20     outside.  I dealt strictly with my own chain of command.

21        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Now, I believe from reviewing your other reports

22     and some of your testimony in, for instance, the Milosevic or Karadzic

23     cases, that you also have knowledge of two other groups, the ZNG and the

24     HOS.  Is that accurate?

25        A.   I was familiar with the phrase HOS.  The ZNG I'm not familiar

Page 1593

 1     with.

 2        Q.   It might have been a report authored by one your colleagues, I

 3     apologise.

 4             With respect to the HOS, would you agree that this was also an

 5     armed group that could be coined a paramilitary operating within the

 6     territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina during the time-period that you were part

 7     of the ECMM mission?

 8        A.   Yes, I would accept that.

 9        Q.   And if you know, what ethnic political or national group were

10     behind the HOS?

11        A.   Croats.

12        Q.   Thank you.  I'd like to now move along to another topic, sir.

13             MR. IVETIC:  First of all, Your Honours, this is, I believe,

14     already -- yeah, it's already an exhibit.  I apologise.

15        Q.   As part of your briefing --

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Which number, Mr. Ivetic?

17             MR. IVETIC:  This is P93, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yeah, P93 is already in.  But you have been

19     handling 65 ter 10969.  We'd like to know what you intend to do with

20     that.

21             MR. IVETIC:  One moment, Your Honours.  If I can find which one

22     that is.

23             969, Your Honours?

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated] was it 969 or 169?  I'm

25     sorry, we have two different numbers with --

Page 1594

 1             MR. IVETIC:  I'm sorry, Your Honours.  10969 I would like to

 2     tender that into evidence.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  10969.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Previously it was recorded that you mentioned

 5     10169.  So that is a correction now.

 6             MR. IVETIC:  I apologise Your Honours, and thank you for that

 7     correction.

 8             MS. BOLTON:  No objection, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

10             65 ter 10969 is admitted into evidence.  May it please be given

11     an exhibit number, Madam Registrar.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  10969 becomes Exhibit D38, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

14             Yes, Mr. Ivetic.

15             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

16        Q.   Colonel, as part of your briefing in preparation for the

17     deployment to Yugoslavia, did the -- did you receive any primers on the

18     political platforms or policies of any of the political parties in

19     Bosnia-Herzegovina such as the SDA?

20        A.   No, beyond being briefed on the makeup and beyond being informed

21     that there were three main political parties, but we were given no

22     details.

23        Q.   Did you -- or were you aware of the fact that Mr. Izetbegovic had

24     republished an earlier book that he had written in 1990 shortly before

25     the ECMM became involved in -- or was deployed to the territory of

Page 1595

 1     Yugoslavia?

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   I would like to briefly just show you one page from 1D00172, and

 4     it would be the 30th page in e-court in English and the 22nd page in

 5     B/C/S.  This is from the 1990 book of Mr. Izetbegovic, "The Islamic

 6     Declaration."

 7             MS. BOLTON:  Yes, Your Honours.  I'd have an objection to the

 8     witness being questioned about this document.  This is a book, as my

 9     friend indicates, published in 1969 to 1970, originally.  It is -- first

10     of all, I can indicate that the copy that is in e-court doesn't have a

11     publishing location or the name of the publisher.  I can't tell if the

12     book -- if this is actually a true copy or a true translation of the

13     book.  It just says "Sarajevo 1990."

14             And, secondly what on earth could this witness have to say about

15     a book that was written that does -- 1969/1970?  It's not going to

16     contain any information about Mr. Doyle or his mission, because clearly

17     he wasn't there in 1969 or 1990.  He didn't write -- he is not the author

18     of the book.  He's just going to be asking him to comment on some

19     passages and it's an inappropriate line of questioning.  He is not going

20     to have any facts, knowledge of this -- contents of his book or what --

21     and his opinion on whatever is said in the book isn't going to have any

22     relevance.  He is not here as an expert.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Bolton, can I suggest that you wait until an

24     objectionable question is asked and then you object.

25             Thank you.

Page 1596

 1             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.  And just for the record,

 2     so I can already allay any fears, I'm not seeking to introduce this.  I'm

 3     just following the practice I've had, for the benefit of the translators

 4     and the witness, of having items that I want to ask him about presented

 5     on e-court.  I will not be seeking to tender this because I do not

 6     believe the witness can -- the witness to introduce this type of book

 7     into evidence.

 8        Q.   Sir, I believe we have the relevant page, page 30 in the English

 9     and page 22 in the B/C/S.  And the brief selection I want to ask you

10     about starts off, I believe, in the middle of that page.  And it says:

11     "First and foremost of these conclusions is certainly the incompatibility

12     of Islam with non-Islamic systems.  There can be neither peace nor

13     co-existence between the Islamic religion and non-Islamic social and

14     political institutions."

15             And the question I wanted to have for you sir is:  In the course

16     of your dealings and contacts with Mr. Izetbegovic, did he espouse such a

17     position that there could not be peaceful co-existence between Islamic

18     and non-Islam institutions in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

19        A.   No, he did not.

20        Q.   Was the -- were the views expressed by Mr. Izetbegovic in this

21     book constantly causing concern for non-Islamic members of

22     Bosnia-Herzegovina political leaders with whom you had contact as part of

23     the ECMM mission?  Was this book constantly being raised as a fear on

24     behalf of Croat and Muslim political officials in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

25        A.   Not to my knowledge.

Page 1597

 1        Q.   I apologise.  I meant Croat and Serb.  Did you understand my

 2     question?  Was it being -- [Overlapping speakers].

 3        A.   Yes, I understand your question.  No, it wasn't.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Then I move on.  In paragraphs 91 through 95 of your

 5     statement, you discuss the incidents that occurred beginning of the

 6     2nd of May 1992 when Bosnian Muslim paramilitaries, as you phrase it,

 7     surrounded the JNA headquarters and the subsequent negotiations to try

 8     and release this blockade to effectuate the withdrawal of the JNA, and

 9     you briefly mention the attack person perpetrated by these Bosnian Muslim

10     paramilitaries upon the withdrawing JNA.

11             With that as a background, I'd like to show you a document

12     labelled 1D0011.  And while we wait for that, sir, this is dated the 29th

13     of April, 1992, just a few days before this time-period when you say that

14     the paramilitaries surrounded the JNA, and while we're waiting for the

15     document, first --

16             THE REGISTRAR:  I apologise.  Document 1D0011 is not in e-court.

17             MR. IVETIC:  I apologise.  Let me double-check the number.

18             I'm sorry, it's 1D00111.  111.

19        Q.   And perhaps, sir, while we're waiting for that I can ask you in

20     the course of your dealings - there we go - in the course of your

21     dealings with personnel in Bosnia-Herzegovina, did you ever have occasion

22     to hear the name or become familiar with an individual by name of

23     Hasan Efendic?

24        A.   I'm not familiar with the name.  If I knew what the appointment

25     was, I might have a recollection of -- of -- of who this person was.

Page 1598

 1     But, offhand, no.

 2        Q.   Well, sir, perhaps this document can refresh your recollection.

 3     This is a document that purports to the headquarter of the

 4     Territorial Defence of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and it's

 5     signed by Commanding Officer Colonel Hasan Efendic.  Does that refresh

 6     your recollection?

 7        A.   No.  Actually, I don't remember this officer.

 8        Q.   Fair enough.  If we look at the items marked 1 through 4 in the

 9     middle of this order, and first of all we see from the text it's an

10     order.  This essentially orders that the units of the Republic of

11     Bosnia-Herzegovina Territorial Defence blockade the roads, blockade the

12     JNA barracks, and orders the immediate planning and initiation of

13     military action throughout the entire territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

14     Do these orders appear to coincide with the facts that you witnessed and

15     testified about occurring in Sarajevo starting 2 March 1992?

16        A.   Let me just explain this, if I may.

17             From that period of the start of May, I had no direct personal

18     involvement.  When you refer, for example, to the events that took place

19     around the besieged headquarters, I was held as a hostage in Lukavica by

20     the JNA because in my negotiations to release the president, the

21     commander did not want to allow his daughter to accompany him.  So the

22     agreement was I would stay behind as collateral, as it were.  So I was

23     not accompanying the president or General McKenzie when they went to

24     exchange him, and therefore I did not see the military barracks that had

25     been besieged at that stage.

Page 1599

 1        Q.   Thank you, sir.  You mentioned -- I apologise.  At paragraph 94

 2     of your statement you identify that a certain number of JNA soldiers were

 3     killed, and I believe you say approximately 170 soldiers were captured as

 4     part of this withdrawal when they were attacked.  Do you recall that, in

 5     fact, that the number was 29 JNA personnel killed as part of this convoy?

 6        A.   I have no information as to the exact number who -- that were

 7     killed.  There were various figures being bandied about by all sides.

 8             When I was held behind in Lukavica, there was a police officer

 9     who was repeating information he claimed he was getting from the centre

10     of Sarajevo.  Most of the information was totally exaggerated.  I was

11     told that bodies were being burnt, that soldiers were being stripped

12     naked, so it was very difficult to know exactly.  I was basing these

13     figures on the estimated number as given to me by the monitor mission.

14        Q.   Fair enough, sir.  You've anticipated my next question.  Did the

15     monitoring mission also advise you that on that same time-period, that

16     same two-day-time period, that there were other attacks in other parts of

17     Bosnia-Herzegovina upon JNA convoys that were withdrawing from barracks?

18        A.   I did not have any information of that nature, no.

19        Q.   Okay.

20        A.   And may I just repeat that at that stage I was not a member of

21     the monitoring mission.  I was a personal representative of

22     Lord Carrington and therefore would not have been seeking such

23     information from the monitor mission.

24        Q.   Thank you.  And you're absolutely correct in that clarification.

25             Yesterday you mentioned that during direct examination that the

Page 1600

 1     ECMM monitors from Bosnia were not permitted to visit the 9th JNA Army

 2     Corps due to General Mladic.  Am I correct that the 9th Corps was based

 3     not in Bosnia but rather on the territory of Republic of Croatia?

 4        A.   Yes, at that stage.  Yes, I think its headquarters would have

 5     been in Knin which is in Croatia.

 6        Q.   And am I correct, then, that there was a separate ECMM mission

 7     with a Colonel Puhoz [phoen] that was in charge of liaising with those

 8     units stationed in that part of the Republic of Croatia's boundaries?

 9        A.   I -- I simply don't know.  I do know that there was a liaison

10     officer attached to our mission, a JNA officer.  But what prevailed in

11     Croatia, I don't know.

12        Q.   And did you know that Mr. Mladic only assumed command of the

13     9th Corps on the 26th of December 1991 and that prior to him it would

14     have been Colonel Vukovic who was the commanding officer of that unit?

15     General Vukovic.

16        A.   I don't exactly when General Mladic was appointed to the

17     9th Corps.  You do make a reference to General Vukovic, and I did know a

18     General Vukovic who had assumed command of the 5th Corps in Banja Luka in

19     succession to General Uzelac.  But when General Mladic took over command

20     of the 9th Corps, I don't know.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Sir, at paragraph 58 of your statement --

22             MR. IVETIC:  And we can -- we can leave this -- we can move this

23     document.  I do not need to use it any further.  I do not wish to seek it

24     through this witness.

25        Q.   At paragraph 58 of your statement you talk with the withdrawal of

Page 1601

 1     the referendum monitors and you talk about going through some barricades

 2     on the way to the airport in a JNA-led convoy.  Am I correct that this

 3     was -- the approximately the 2nd of March?

 4        A.   Yes, that's correct, yes.

 5        Q.   Your statement talks only of intimidation from militant Serbs at

 6     the barricades.  Weren't there also SDA barricades manned by armed

 7     Bosnian Muslims that you had to pass through as well?

 8        A.   Not on that occasion, no.

 9        Q.   Do you remember the name of the JNA colonel that you liaised with

10     in regards to that convoy and was it perhaps Colonel -- Lieutenant

11     Colonel Slobodan Dimitrijevic?

12        A.   Correct.

13             MR. IVETIC:  If we can have 1D00121 in e-court.  And my focus is

14     on the first page in both languages.

15        Q.   Sir, what we will be shown in a moment is a report dated the 2nd

16     of March, 1992.  And it is made by the command of the 2nd Military

17     District of the JNA.  It's not apparent on the first page but later when

18     we get to the second page I think you will see the sign by

19     Major General Aksentijevic and references at both Lieutenant

20     Slobodan Dimitrijevic and Franjo Patacko [phoen] of the JNA assisted

21     militarisation of the task.  But looking on the first page, this is a

22     report about an escort of monitors and it recites that preparations began

23     before the Holiday Inn at 1800 hours to evacuate the referendum

24     observers, and the third bullet point identifies a JNA passenger car, a

25     EC car with you and Mr. Kogan, and two JNA buses.  Does this comport with

Page 1602

 1     your recollection of the convoy that you are talking about in

 2     paragraph 58 of your statement?

 3        A.   Yes, it does.

 4        Q.   Thank you, sir.  If we can go to the fifth and sixth

 5     paragraphs of this report and now I quote:

 6             "At the very first barricade in the neighbourhood of Pofalici, we

 7     encountered serious problems.  Misunderstanding and mistrust from people

 8     on the barricades.  This was the case on all seven barricades on the road

 9     to the airport, including three men by SDA, Party of Democratic Action,

10     members and three MUP, Ministry of Interior, check-points.  The general

11     conclusion was that we went through the SDA barricades more easily

12     because of the presence of MUP representatives and Mr. Habib, while the

13     decisive arguments on the barricades held by Serbian civilians were the

14     authority of Admiral Brovet and the GS General Staff, whose order we

15     referred to, and lengthy persuasion to which it was stressed, that these

16     were eminent European and international officials."

17             Sir, does this report by Major-General Aksentijevic refresh your

18     recollection as to whether in fact you had to pass through three

19     barricades manned by Bosnian Muslim SDA members on the 2nd of March on

20     the way to the airport?

21        A.   No, this report would not -- I would not agree with this report.

22     I had no knowledge that there were any SDA or MUP check-points.  In fact,

23     I recalled that Mr. Habib was stopped at the first check-point and

24     ordered out of the convoy because I know it was Bosnian Serbs, and they

25     didn't particularly like him because he was an advisor to the Ministry of

Page 1603

 1     the Interior.  So Mr. Habib did not accompany us all the way to the

 2     airport at all.  He was told -- he was ordered off the convoy and he was

 3     ordered out.

 4        Q.   Colonel, if I can -- if I could perhaps focus your answer.

 5             Am I correct that Mr. Habib was not aloud into the airport and he

 6     removed at the last check-point before the airport?

 7        A.   I -- my understanding was he -- he was removed earlier than that,

 8     but that could be open to debate because I can't remember exactly which

 9     but certainly he didn't get to the airport.  He was removed.

10        Q.   We agree on that point.  Okay.  Fair enough.

11             If -- in light of the witness's answers, then I don't think I can

12     admit this document through him so I will move onto another point.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Indeed.  Thank you so much.

14             MR. IVETIC:

15        Q.   In paragraph 75 through 76 of your statement, sir, you talk about

16     the negotiations for resolving the issue of the Sarajevo television

17     building, and this is a topic that you have testified about in other

18     trials; in the Karadzic case, for instance.  In your statement, you focus

19     on this being related to a division of assets.  Is that -- am I

20     accurately reflecting what is in the statement at these two paragraphs?

21        A.   When I refer to "assets," in relation to the demand of the

22     Bosnian Serbs, the assets were the structure of the building, parts of

23     the building, not necessarily what was agreed in the -- in the

24     cease-fire.  During negotiations for the cease-fire, it was agreed that

25     the Bosnian Serbs would be allowed more access to television time.

Page 1604

 1     However, when I went to the television station on the day in question,

 2     the Bosnian Serbs said no, what was agreed is that we would be given the

 3     assets of the station.  In other words, we give them so many parts, the

 4     building would get television, cars, reporters, and studios, et cetera.

 5     That was not the understanding of the cease-fire agreement and therefore

 6     the talks didn't lead anywhere.  So when I mention "assets," I'm talking

 7     about physical assets, yes.

 8        Q.   And when we are talking about more air time for the Bosnian

 9     Serbs, would that entail having a channel that would be available to them

10     to present whatever programming that they wish to present?

11        A.   Well, I don't know that it would be a channel but it certainly

12     would be more time for them to broadcast what they wished.  I don't know

13     whether that would have been required a channel or not, but ...

14        Q.   Fair enough.

15        A.   Yeah.

16        Q.   With respect to what I'm looking at now, sir, am I correct that

17     your understanding of the Muslim position as communicated to you was that

18     they were happy with the status quo and did not want any changes?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   I would like to show you a letter.  It's number 1D0014 in

21     e-court.  It is dated the 23rd of March, 1992 signed.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Not in e-court, Your Honours.

23             MR. IVETIC:  I apologise.

24             1D00114.

25             Your Honours, I'm told that one hour has passed from when we

Page 1605

 1     started.  I apologise for not bringing that to the attention --

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well, I was going to draw your attention to it at

 3     11.00 sharp.  Indeed, you are right.  Is this a convenient time?

 4             MR. IVETIC:  It is, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And you can sort out 1D00114 in the meantime.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  That would be great, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 8             Mr. Doyle, we've been an hour inside.  We're going to take a

 9     break for 20 minutes.  Come back at 20 past 11.00, please.

10             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Please stand down.

12                           [The witness stands down]

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We'll take a break and come back at 20 past 11.00.

14             Court adjourned.

15                           --- Recess taken at 10.59 a.m.

16                           --- On resuming at 11.22 a.m.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before we continue, Mr. Ivetic --

18             Mr. Lukic, when you announced Mr. Mladic's apology, we were in

19     private session, and you said he's apologising to everybody, and I think

20     it's in the interests of both him and justice that it be in open session.

21     Then we'll order then that that private session, that confidential part

22     of the testimony be uplifted.

23             Madam Registrar, thank you so much.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the witness please be called in.

Page 1606

 1                           [The witness takes the stand]

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Ivetic, 1D00114.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  That's correct, Your Honours, and I see that we have

 4     it up on the system.  I thank the Madam Registrar for correcting my

 5     misstatement of the number.

 6        Q.   Colonel, we have before us a letter signed by Harun Imamovic from

 7     the SDA city board for Sarajevo, and the part that I would like to focus

 8     on for purposes of my discussion with you is in the middle in both the

 9     B/C/S and English and begins:

10             "The Sarajevo SDA city board believes that every division of

11     Sarajevo TV into ethnic channels is out of the question, as it would not

12     suit the interests of the Muslim people.

13             "In addition, we would like to say that in order to protect our

14     ethnic interests, it is imperative that the general manager of the RTV be

15     a Muslim as well as the editor-in-chief of the RTV.

16             "We deem this to be the minimum beneath which no talks should be

17     held."

18             Now, sir, would you agree with me that the content of this letter

19     would indicate that the Muslim population were looking for an

20     unreasonable demand as to the TV negotiations?

21        A.   Yes, I would agree.

22        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Now if we can move to a related topic from

23     paragraph 77 of your statement.  You mentioned the shelling of the TV

24     station.

25             MR. IVETIC:  And I'd like to call up a document in e-court,

Page 1607

 1     1D00175, and I do not intend to introduce the one that we have on the

 2     screen, and again that's 1D00175.

 3             Colonel the document that's coming up now, and shortly we'll have

 4     the translation, is a report from the 17th Partisan Brigade of the JNA.

 5     It is dated 23 April of 1992 and details the situation as reported by

 6     this source in the Sarajevo TV building, and you can feel free to read

 7     the English translation to yourself.  I will summarise that it alleges

 8     the presence of armed paramilitary formations in that building, and I

 9     know that you already were questioned about this in the Karadzic case on

10     the 26th of May 2010 at transcript page 2718 and that you -- that your

11     testimony there was that you did not know about any alleged presence of

12     paramilitaries in that building.

13             I --

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Madam Bolton.

15             MS. BOLTON:  [Microphone not activated]

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

17             MS. BOLTON:  Sorry.  I think if my friend wants to a put a

18     portion of his testimony from Karadzic to him, he should actually put the

19     actual excerpt.  I don't think that's a fair statement of everything the

20     witness had to say on the topic.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Ivetic.

22             MR. IVETIC:  I'd be happy to do that.  I was trying to save time,

23     Your Honours.  It's in e-court.  If we could perhaps leave the English

24     translation of this document on the screen and, on the other side, if we

25     could pull up 1D0018, page 29.  That is the transcript reference that I

Page 1608

 1     was hoping to -- to discuss with the witness.  1D00118.  Did I do it

 2     again?

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yep.

 4             MR. IVETIC:  I apologise, Your Honours.

 5        Q.   And while we're waiting for that, sir, if I was -- my finishing

 6     remark was going to be that I have a different set of questions for you,

 7     but let's, first of all, see this section.  It's the 29th page in

 8     e-court.

 9             And I believe it's at line 21, where you indicated that you have

10     no knowledge -- that you had no knowledge of this -- of this report or of

11     the alleges contained therein?

12        A.   Correct.

13        Q.   Thank you, sir.  And my question was going to be, just to be

14     clear, is there only one TV building; that is to say, is this -- would --

15     would the TV building that is being referenced here have to be the TV

16     building that is in paragraph 77 of your statement?

17        A.   Yes, I would -- yes, I would say so, yes.

18        Q.   Fair enough.  With respect to -- with respect to the allegation

19     of there being paramilitaries in a location, would you agree with me that

20     to arrive at the truth one would have to look into and investigate those

21     claims and find out the full picture before assessing fault for any

22     military strike on a target?

23        A.   Sorry, could you re-direct that?  I didn't fully understand the

24     question.

25        Q.   Would you agree with me that before we assess fault for the

Page 1609

 1     shelling of the TV building, someone would have to review and investigate

 2     whether, in fact, there were armed paramilitaries operating in the

 3     building that would affect the legitimacy of the decision to strike the

 4     building?

 5        A.   Yes, I would.  However, it would probably, in my view, depend on

 6     what the reason behind it is.  Is it actually to attack such units if

 7     they did exist or was it still a target to actually attack the television

 8     station itself?  I don't know.

 9        Q.   I agree with you, and I agree that we don't know at this stage

10     that since no investigation was performed of that.  But, sir, the

11     question I have for you, as someone who has been trained by the

12     Irish Defence Forces, and in the recitation of your background you talked

13     about 30 years experience in the military, and you had several positions

14     after the Irish Defence Forces:  Would you agree with me that if a

15     civilian building is being used by a hostile force to open fire upon

16     another combatant, that that combatant is entitled to shoot back onto

17     that location to neutralise the threat?  Hypothetical, of course, but ...

18        A.   Well, I understand it's hypothetical, and I think I would

19     probably need to have more information before I could give an answer on

20     that, but basically I think I understand what you're getting at.

21             On the one hand, you know, a -- a television station can be under

22     certain circumstances a military target.  It depends on what's coming out

23     of the television station.  On the other, it's a part of an institution

24     of a state.  So I think it probably would depend on the circumstances.

25        Q.   Fair enough.

Page 1610

 1        A.   So I think that's the best I can do for you on that one.

 2        Q.   That's okay, sir -- Colonel.  That's exactly where I stand as

 3     well.

 4             With respect to any military strikes, based upon your 30 years

 5     experience, would you agree with me that all the care and technology in

 6     the world cannot completely eliminate the prospect of civilian damage or

 7     casualties that result from an otherwise legitimate military target being

 8     struck?

 9        A.   I think I'm getting a little bit confused.  Could you -- could

10     you just repeat that for me, please, until I give it some consideration.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Ivetic.

12             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It looks like we're now in a legal discourse.

14     Don't we talk of collateral damage?

15             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, we do with this.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And isn't that --

17             MR. IVETIC:  That's what I'm asking, Your Honours.  Yes, that's

18     correct.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

20             Mr. Doyle.

21             THE WITNESS:  One of the great focuses or one of the great

22     problems we have in the military is the whole issue of collateral damage,

23     and of course in recent years and in recent conflicts it's become more

24     and more to the fore.  We only have to think of the collateral damage

25     done to a premises in Belgrade.  However, that's why I find it just

Page 1611

 1     difficult to -- to side one way or the other on an issue of this nature.

 2     But I would agree that an order for an attack on a premises, one would

 3     want to be fairly sure that you're going about it the right way and it's

 4     for a legitimate reason and that it is a legitimate target.

 5             MR. IVETIC:

 6        Q.   Thank you.  And if we can have just one more document that I

 7     believe you -- I believe this one you haven't seen before.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  And this one -- the 17th Partisan Brigade document I

 9     will not -- also not be seeking to tender as an exhibit at this time.  If

10     we can call up, Madam Registrar, 1D00169.

11        Q.   And, Colonel, as we wait for that to come up, I can preface my

12     remarks by saying that we will see that is a 11 May 1992 report of the

13     Ilidza police station, and if we go to the fourth page in the Serbian and

14     the second page in the English, I think we will see this selection that

15     also talks about the Sarajevo -- the RTV building.  And Colonel, if I can

16     direct your attention to the part that begins, and I quote:

17             "We have acquired information that in the RTV Sarajevo building,

18     a large number of Green Berets are present daily; that is, there are 50

19     to 70 of them there at all times.  They are led by Sejo Saric, who had

20     worked in the security services of this building previously.  The

21     requisitor known as Boca is also one of the leaders and is also very

22     extreme.  A group of the reserve police and Territorial Defence (TO) are

23     commanded by a certain Saban Sljem with the help of Bajrovic and some

24     Kasim.  Among them are snipers Zeljko Jandric and Zoran Milovanovic,

25     specialists of the former MUP.  They are armed with automatic weapons,

Page 1612

 1     machine-guns, portable launchers, and bazookas.  They carry a large

 2     quantity of ammunition.  During the attack on Svrakino Selo, 30 to 40

 3     members of the Green Berets had arrived on the property of the TV

 4     station.  Portable launchers and bazookas are being placed on top of the

 5     TV station by which they could fire at ranges up to 500 metres.  We have

 6     been told that their combat morale is not at a high level, which is

 7     particularly visible prior to the bombing of the building."

 8             And now, Colonel, first of all, the standard question:  Am I

 9     correct that this information was not known to you or available to you

10     prior to ...

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Madam Bolton.

12             MR. IVETIC:  Okay, I'll just ...

13             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you.  Again, there is no relevance to whether

14     the information was known to him unless the information was true.  So he

15     should be asking any knowledge that there were, in fact, Green Berets in

16     the building not -- not presupposing again that the information is true.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well, what is wrong with the question was the

18     information -- the information was not available to you?  That's the

19     question put to the witness.

20             MS. BOLTON:  I think the question as worded -- it's ambiguous

21     whether he's asking -- if he answers "yes," it would be ambiguous on the

22     record as to whether he's saying -- sorry, if he answers "no," it would

23     be ambiguous on the record as to whether he's saying, No the information

24     was never conveyed to me, or he is not given an opportunity to say, Well,

25     in fact -- to disagree with the information that's being put to him if

Page 1613

 1     that's the case.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I don't know whether the -- whether counsel

 3     intends to put the case to him, whether he disagrees with it.  All he

 4     wants to know is did you have this information at the time.  And the

 5     question [sic] is yes I did or no I did not.  I don't think there can be

 6     any ambiguity about that.

 7             MS. BOLTON:  Well, no, the answer -- the question as worded, Your

 8     Honour, was was this information -- sorry.  I think "conveyed" I think it

 9     was.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The question is -- let's read it as it was put:

11             "And now Colonel, first of all, the standard question, am I

12     correct that this information was not known to you or available to you

13     prior to ..."

14             And then you objected.  Yes, it was not available to me; no, you

15     are wrong, it was available to me.

16             MS. BOLTON:  All right.  I -- I think the question is ambiguous

17     in my mind, Your Honour, but clearly you disagree and there is no point

18     in belabouring the point.  Thank you.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

20             Put the question, sir, exactly as it was put.

21             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

22        Q.   Sir, am I correct that this information was not available to you?

23        A.   No, it was not available to me.

24        Q.   And without getting into whether the matters asserted are

25     accurate and true or not, because neither you nor I can do that at this

Page 1614

 1     point, I want to ask you:  Would you agree with me that to reach an

 2     accurate picture of the truth, these allegations of a building being used

 3     to set up offensive weapons would have to be fully looked into before

 4     assessing the legitimacy of a strike on a building?

 5        A.   Yes, they would.  But I should state here that I was warned in

 6     advance by Serbs that they were going to bomb the station if they did not

 7     close it down.  They did not say to me, We will bomb this station if this

 8     or that.  That was the specific.  And I brought that personally to the

 9     attention of Mr. Karadzic who assured me that it would not take place.

10        Q.   And that's all in your statement in the paragraph that I

11     referenced --

12        A.   Correct.

13        Q.   -- at the beginning.  Thank you, sir.

14             MR. IVETIC:  I will also not be seeking to tender this,

15     Your Honour, so we can remove that from e-court for the time being.

16        Q.   And sir, I wish to move onto another topic.  In paragraph 79 of

17     your statement, you do talk about a battle that took place just outside

18     of your hotel which you eye-witnessed.  Am I correct, first, that the --

19     that your hotel is near the area where the TV building we have been

20     talking about is located?

21        A.   Well, it's not beside it.  It would be some kilometres away.

22        Q.   And this combat that you saw, I -- I -- strike that.  I shouldn't

23     say combat.  You refer to it as a battle.  This battle that you saw on

24     the 22nd of April, 1992, am I correct that the armed Bosnian Muslim

25     forces were the antagonists; that is to say, the attacking or offensive

Page 1615

 1     party?

 2        A.   My assessment was that it was, yes.

 3        Q.   Thank you for that clarification.  And one other clarification as

 4     to this incident.  In your statement, you mention that 13 persons were

 5     killed.  Do you recall if these were civilians or combatants?

 6        A.   Well, the information was given to me by a reporter from the BBC

 7     who was on the ground.  I saw some bodies.  The ones that I saw were in

 8     uniform -- sorry.  They were in paramilitary uniform.  They were in the

 9     uniform that was worn by police.  I understood them to be Serb police.

10        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Now, if we go to one other item from your

11     statement.  In paragraph 87, you mention a letter that, in fact, is

12     Annex 9 to your statement but which we here in the courtroom now know as

13     P94, I believe.  65 ter number 10980 and I believe it entered into court

14     as P94.

15             This is a letter written by the mayor of Sarajevo, and while we

16     wait for that to come up on the screen I would ask you:  Do you recall

17     this letter?

18        A.   Yes, I do.

19        Q.   And very briefly on this, and I will rest assured as I have done

20     all yesterday and today, I will give you a fair opportunity to get

21     everything that you've said about this letter in there.  Can I first just

22     remind that you testified in the Milosevic case that in your opinion this

23     letter was probably overstated.  Is that an accurate --

24     [Overlapping speakers].

25        A.   Yes, it was my assessment that there were some exaggerations in

Page 1616

 1     the letter.

 2        Q.   And to be fair to you, sir, I wish to also read the remainder of

 3     what you said about this letter so that everything is out there, and this

 4     is from the Milosevic -- the Slobodan Milosevic case, transcript page

 5     25354, lines 14 to 21, and it's -- I believe you will be able to follow

 6     along.  It's brief.

 7             "What I would say about that is that in lots of reports that I

 8     got from all sides there was the general tendency to exaggerate and this,

 9     in my view, was one of those.  I do not in any way dispute the fact that

10     the situation was getting pretty desperate and that there was an urgent

11     need for corridors to be opened to get humanitarian aid into the city,

12     but from the experience I had in the former Yugoslavia over the 12

13     months, I would say that all the sides, from time to time, in my opinion,

14     seemed to exaggerate the situation."

15             And, sir, does that now complete your recollection on your stance

16     as to this letter as [Overlapping speakers].

17        A.   Yes, it does.

18        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Now, if I can move onto another topic.  I want

19     to ask you about something that struck me in regards to the efforts of

20     the negotiators in Lisbon.  And here I'm talking about May 1992.

21             Am I correct that you personally there Lisbon several days during

22     this time-period, and in particular when the 27 May bread queue massacre

23     occurred?

24        A.   I was, yes.

25        Q.   And now, I believe you were only questioned about that in the

Page 1617

 1     Slobodan Milosevic case.  At least that's the only place where I found a

 2     reference to this item.  Otherwise, I would have called up reports.  But

 3     on the 26th of August --

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Bolton.

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Microphone.

 7             MS. BOLTON:  Sorry, is it on now?

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's on now.

 9             MS. BOLTON:  I don't know that the Slobodan Milosevic transcript

10     was included on my friend's document list.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Ivetic.

12             MR. IVETIC:  If I can refresh counsel's recollection, it's

13     included on their exhibit list and my list says I may use anything on the

14     Prosecution's exhibit list.  It's listed under prior testimony,

15     Prosecutor versus Slobodan Milosevic, case number IT-02-54-T, 26 and 27

16     August 2003.

17             MS. BOLTON:  [Microphone not activated]

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Madam Bolton.

19             Yes, Mr. Ivetic.  You may continue.

20             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

21        Q.   Sir, I will read to you again, as I have, the entirety of what

22     you are recorded as having said there, and then I'll ask the questions

23     thereafter and you will be free to clarify, add to, or correct anything.

24             Again, this is the 26th of August 2003 at transcript page 25299,

25     line 19, going to transcript page 25300, line 10.  And I begin with

Page 1618

 1     your -- with -- with -- with what was there.

 2             "A short time after that Radovan Karadzic was very anxious to

 3     come in and talk with us, and we had a discussion about meeting with him.

 4     So when he came in, immediately -- he immediately inferred that the

 5     Bosnian Serbs were not responsible for that mortar.  I recall

 6     Ambassador Cutileiro saying to him, asking him how was he -- how did he

 7     know that this attack could not be attributed to the Bosnian Serbs

 8     because it was impossible to have contact with Sarajevo from Lisbon.

 9     However, what was attempted by the conference, as a result of this, was

10     that Dr. Karadzic was informed that whether the Serbs were to blame or

11     not, they, the Serbs, were actually responsible for it or not, they

12     probably were going to be blamed, and, therefore, it would be the

13     interest of them to make a gesture to our conference.  We had discussed

14     this previously to Dr. Karadzic coming in, and I suggested - I think it

15     was I; I may not be sure on that - but one of us suggested that maybe we

16     exploit this to be able to get an agreement on the airport.  So after

17     some considerable time, Dr. Karadzic agreed that in certain circumstances

18     he would be willing to hand over control of Sarajevo airport to the

19     United Nations."

20             Colonel, have I accurately recited --

21        A.   Yes, you have.

22        Q.   Thank you.  And the incident in question is the bread queue

23     explosion at Vasa Miskina street that is commonly referred to as the

24     first of the Markale attacks?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 1619

 1        Q.   And am I correct that a forensic investigation later determined

 2     that the Bosnian Muslim forces were likely responsible for this incident?

 3        A.   I have no knowledge of that.  That's my understanding, that the

 4     United Nations crater analysis was different.

 5             MR. IVETIC:  One moment, Your Honour.

 6                           [Defence counsel confer]

 7             MR. IVETIC:  I apologise.  I thought there was an issue with the

 8     transcript.

 9        Q.   Well, if you don't allow it, then I will move on.  But the

10     question I have for you is is this --

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, Madam Bolton is on her feet.

12             MR. IVETIC:  Oh, I apologise.

13             MS. BOLTON:  [Microphone not activated]

14             MR. IVETIC:  Microphone.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Microphone.  It's on.

16             MS. BOLTON:  My notes actually do indicate that there may an

17     error on the transcript on that line as well, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Which line?

19             MS. BOLTON:  The answer:

20             "I have no knowledge of that.  That's my understanding, that the

21     United Nations crater analysis was different."

22             I think the witness had said something close to that, but no, my

23     information was that the UN crater analysis -- sorry, was different.  And

24     there's something missing.

25             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, I would happy to let the witness --

Page 1620

 1             MS. BOLTON:  Yes.

 2             MR. IVETIC:  -- re-answer that.  I think that's the safest way.

 3             THE WITNESS:  I don't know personally what the definitive

 4     decision on that was.  I do know that the United Nations carried out a

 5     crater analysis.  But not being a member of the United Nations, I don't

 6     know what that was.  So I can't say for definite who fired that mortar.

 7             MR. IVETIC:

 8        Q.   Fair enough, sir.

 9             Would this example from Lisbon, would it -- from this, can we --

10     can we conclude that in a desire to fulfil the mission objectives,

11     international negotiators from the European Community sometimes had to

12     operate in this manner to try to assess blame without knowing the full

13     answer yet to try and get some concessions from various parties in the

14     conflict?

15        A.   No, I would not agree with that.

16        Q.   Okay.  Fair enough.

17             And then I have one other area also related to the airport.

18             MR. IVETIC:  If we can turn to 1D00170.

19        Q.   And, Colonel, when this comes up, if I can direct your attention

20     to the last paragraph of this document, and I will wait for it to come

21     up.

22             And, again, sir, is this a document that you recognise as one

23     that you authored?

24        A.   Well, I -- I haven't read it yet, but it bears my signature all

25     right.

Page 1621

 1        Q.   If you want, we can have it returned to the first page.  Would

 2     that be --

 3        A.   That might assist.

 4             MR. IVETIC:  Madam Registrar, if we could have the first page,

 5     please.

 6        Q.   And, sir, when you've have had an opportunity to review, if you

 7     could just confirm whether in fact this is a document that you recall

 8     having been authored by you.

 9        A.   I can see where the document has my signature and authorisation,

10     but I actually don't -- I don't recall that -- that -- that actual

11     report.

12             Could I -- could I just quickly see page 2?

13        Q.   Definitely, sir.

14             MR. IVETIC:  Madam Registrar, could we show the witness the

15     second page.

16        Q.   And, sir, I'll give you some time to review that.

17        A.   It bears my signature and I would have to say that I did sign it.

18     But I'm -- I'm a little bit -- I'm a little bit curious as to why it

19     refers to coming from Belgrade on the first page.  I'm -- I'm just not

20     sure on that.

21        Q.   Nor am I, sir.  In any event, do you -- do you recognise the

22     subject matter of the -- [Overlapping speakers].

23        A.   Generally speaking, yes I do.  Yes.

24        Q.   That's fair enough.  I'm only interested in one aspect of this

25     and I will put it to you and you're free to comment on it, if it is or is

Page 1622

 1     not something you recall authoring.

 2             If I can look to the last paragraph of this document, the last --

 3     actually, I'm not seeing the part that I'm looking for.  One moment,

 4     please.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are you looking for the last paragraph on the

 6     second page or on the first page?

 7             MR. IVETIC:  I'm sorry, the last -- the last -- it's supposed to

 8     be the last paragraph on the last page, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  On the last page?  Well, there is the last

10     paragraph:  Kind regards.

11             MR. IVETIC:  And that's not what I have written here.  One

12     moment, Your Honours.

13        Q.   Let me see if the witness recalls this text before we spend more

14     time looking for it.

15             Sir, I have listed here that in this document there is a

16     paragraph that begins as follows:

17             "There is a strong body of opinion to suggest" --

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's first page.

19             MR. IVETIC:  First page.  I apologise then.  The last

20     paragraph of the first page.  That's it.  Thank you, Judge Moloto.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You're welcome [Microphone not activated].

22             MR. IVETIC:

23        Q.   Sir, here we can read along now:

24             "There is a strong body of opinion to suggest that the Muslims

25     would be happy if the airport was not made operational as this would

Page 1623

 1     decrease the chances of they (the Muslims) achieving the objective of

 2     getting some sort of military intervention.  There seems to be a greater

 3     determination on the part of the Serbs to open the airport."

 4             Now, do you recall this specific portion of this correspondence

 5     that was -- that is before you?

 6        A.   I -- I understand what the reason behind that paragraph would

 7     have been, yes, my understanding.  Because, at that time, the -- the

 8     Muslims or the SDA were very -- at the Presidency, specifically the

 9     president was very anxious to try and get military intervention in -- and

10     an indication that the situation might be somehow returning to normal

11     would be opening up the airport.  So politically speaking this would have

12     been something that they would have preferred not to have happened.  That

13     would have been my judgement and that's -- I would accept that's why I

14     would have put it down there.

15        Q.   Thank you, sir, and that's how I understood it and I'm glad for

16     the added explanation.

17             If I can just ask a follow-up on that.  Would you agree with me

18     that this overarching desire to try to seek military intervention from

19     the outside, i.e., from the United States or NATO, that this was

20     exhibited by the SDA leadership not only in regards to the airport but

21     with regards to other negotiations that you were a party to or have

22     knowledge of during the time-period that you were in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

23        A.   I can't actually say that it was.  But I do know that politically

24     the SDA wanted to have military intervention as a means of bringing the

25     war to a conclusion.  That was my estimate.

Page 1624

 1        Q.   Thank you, Your Honour -- thank you, Colonel.  I apologise.

 2             MR. IVETIC:  And one moment.  Let me just check one thing,

 3     Your Honours.  I think I'm done with this witness.

 4                           [Defence counsel confer]

 5             MR. IVETIC:

 6        Q.   I'm sorry, Colonel, I do have one follow-up question.  It's with

 7     regard to the uniforms of the dead -- of the dead casualties that you saw

 8     from the gun battle outside of your hotel in April of 1992.  How -- could

 9     you -- could you illuminate for us how it is that you were able to

10     determine the uniforms in question to identify them as being paramilitary

11     uniforms worn by the police?

12        A.   Well, the -- when that, I suppose battle, or outbreak of fighting

13     occurred, when I looked out the window, the first thing I saw was a Serb

14     half-track coloured blue and white which was the colours, and the

15     uniforms were also blue, and they were the uniforms that were being worn

16     by the police at that stage.  The fact that it was a Serb area, the fact

17     that Muslims had already had been moved out of the area was a clear

18     indication to me as to what was happening.  And, therefore, it was my

19     assumption that the people who were defending the area were Serbs.

20        Q.   Thank you, Colonel.

21             Colonel, I thank you for your time and your patience.  I have no

22     further questions for you and I thank you for the answers that you have

23     given.

24             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I pass the witness.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Ivetic.

Page 1625

 1             Madam Bolton.

 2             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you, Your Honours.  I do have a brief

 3     re-examination of the witness.  May I just have a moment to organise my

 4     papers.

 5             May I begin, Your Honour?

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may, ma'am.

 7             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you.

 8                           Re-examination by Ms. Bolton:

 9             Can I have on the screen, please, 65 ter 10943.

10        Q.   This is a document you were asked about yesterday by my friend.

11     In particular, you were asked about a note that appears at the end of the

12     document, which is -- will be the next page, where you express some

13     concerns about the legality of the referendum and, in particular, you

14     indicated there was some concerns about the legality of the assembly

15     being reconvened after it was closed by the assembly president and also

16     the authority of the president of the assembly to conclude the session

17     without a majority in the first place.

18             MS. BOLTON:  I'm wondering if we could please go back to the

19     first page of this document.

20        Q.   Under item 10, there's an indication, it says -- before the list

21     there's an indication most of the speakers during the debate were from

22     the SDS party, all of whom opposed the holding of a referendum with

23     various arguments of which the following were the main points.

24             And then point 10 is:

25             "Recommend that SDA/HDZ go ahead without SDS as they (SDS)

Page 1626

 1     already had a plebescite on November 9th/10th."

 2             And my question is:  What are they referring "go ahead" without

 3     the SDS?

 4        A.   Go ahead with the referendum.

 5        Q.   Now you told us yesterday that it was the position of the Bosnian

 6     Serbs that the requirement for the referendum required that it be done in

 7     order to have a legitimate vote on the referendum that required that

 8     there be a consensus amongst all three ethnic groups and not just a

 9     simple parliamentary majority is that correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And you told us yesterday that after they provided that

12     information to you that you went and spoke to some judges at the supreme

13     court of Bosnia; is that right?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And was that in an informal manner or was this a formal court

16     case that you brought?

17        A.   No, this was an initiative on my part.

18        Q.   And to the best of your --

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It was an initiative on your part, Mr. Doyle, but

20     was it a formal or an informal initiative?

21             THE WITNESS:  It followed a request I made.  I was trying to

22     clarify this whole issue, so I asked if I could meet some of the more

23     legally qualified people of the state, and I was told, yes, this will

24     happen, and I was told where to go at what time and I met them.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The short answer is it was an informal --

Page 1627

 1             THE WITNESS:  Yes, it would have been.  I beg your pardon,

 2     Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, sir.

 4             MS. BOLTON:

 5        Q.   And to the best of your knowledge, sir, did anyone from the SDS

 6     or anyone associated with the Bosnian Serb people ever initiate an action

 7     in the Bosnian supreme court to get a formal ruling from the court as to

 8     the legality or illegality of that vote?

 9        A.   I think I can answer that best by explaining that when arrived

10     for that meeting, the deputy minister of justice, who was a Serb, asked

11     me what it was I wanted to address with these judges.  And when I

12     mentioned I was trying to get an official legal interpretation of this

13     whole issue, and he said that's not open for discussion.  So I waited

14     until he left, and then I had the discussion that I wanted.  And what I

15     was told by one of the judges is, Mr. Doyle, you're looking for something

16     that is impossible to define, because we judges could from different

17     ethnic backgrounds, so what I will tell you, for example, as a member, as

18     a judge who is a Muslim will be different to what you will be told by a

19     judge who is a Serb.

20             So I left that meeting rather frustrated because I felt if I

21     couldn't get a definitive answer by the highest legal powers in the

22     state, if they couldn't themselves agree as to what was and what wasn't

23     constitutional or legal, then it was going to be very difficult to get a

24     definitive answer.  So I recall that and that's why I put that in there.

25        Q.   And your answer was just slightly different from my question

Page 1628

 1     which was --

 2        A.   I'm sorry.

 3        Q.   Were you aware of whether there was ever any court proceeding

 4     actually initiated by the SDS to get an actual ruling from the court, a

 5     formal ruling?

 6        A.   Not -- not to my knowledge.

 7        Q.   If we could go to the second page of this document again, please.

 8     And to the bottom of the page under: "Comments."  There is an indication

 9     under comment 1 that you remarked that the presence of the SDS at that

10     session was for cosmetic purposes.  What you did you mean by that?

11        A.   The impression that I got at the time was that the SDS members

12     were going to object regardless of what came up.  Once it appears to me

13     that they had decided in advance that they will not vote anything towards

14     a referendum, and if they stick with that line, going on the basis of

15     consensus, then no decision could be made.

16             MS. BOLTON:  That ends my questions on this document, Your

17     Honours, and I note that the witness has been asked extensively about it

18     in cross-examination and now by myself in re-examination, and I think it

19     should be tendered as an exhibit.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's admitted into evidence.  May it please be

21     given an exhibit number.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 10943 becomes Exhibit P100,

23     Your Honours.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Madam Registrar.

25             Yes, Madam Bolton.

Page 1629

 1             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 2        Q.   At page 1560 of the transcript yesterday, Defence counsel

 3     suggested to you that the only person you spoke to in the Bosnian

 4     Presidency who expressed view -- the view that -- only -- that -- sorry.

 5     If the referendum was successful that the Bosnian Serbs wouldn't be happy

 6     but they'd come to accept it was President Izetbegovic.  And I'm

 7     wondering if you could refer to paragraph 54 of your statement where you

 8     indicate that -- you were asked to approach the various party leaders and

 9     that you spoke with President Izetbegovic, Vice-President Ganic, Foreign

10     Minister Silajdzic, and Radovan Karadzic.

11             And then you say:

12             "The members of the Bosnian Presidency all said the same thing.

13     They said they believed the Bosnian Serbs would not be happy with this

14     recognition but they would come around to accept it with time."

15             Does that refresh your memory as to whether it was just

16     President Izetbegovic who expressed that view?

17        A.   Yes.  Yes, I should explain here that the person who spoke to me

18     personally about it was President Izetbegovic, but at the time he did it

19     I was at a meeting in which -- which was also attended by

20     Haris Silajdzic, who's the foreign minister, and Ejup Ganic.  So it was

21     actually the president who said the words of the opinion of the SDA.  I

22     apologise if there was any confusion about that.

23             MS. BOLTON:  May I have ID002148, please.

24             I understand it may come up under the number 1D00173.

25             And may I have page -- sorry.

Page 1630

 1        Q.   First you're looking at the first page, and you recognise this as

 2     the witness statement Defence counsel referred to yesterday as being from

 3     Mr. Halilovic.  Sorry, do you remember being asked about this yesterday,

 4     sir?

 5        A.   Yes, I do.

 6             MS. BOLTON:  And if we could go to page 26 in e-court, please.

 7     When -- and if we could have the top of the page, please, the witness

 8     statement portion.

 9        Q.   When you were being asked questions yesterday by Defence counsel,

10     he referred to this statement as the sworn statement of

11     General Sefer Halilovic, and I'd ask you to read the top portion of this

12     document under "Witness Statement," and then I will have a question for

13     you.  Just read it to yourself.

14        A.   Okay.

15        Q.   Do you see any reference to the witness being administered an

16     oath before he provided this statement?

17        A.   No, I don't.

18        Q.   And the witness is advised, however, that he may be assisted by

19     an attorney, if he so desires?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And he is cautioned that:

22             "There's an investigation in progress into events in

23     Bosnia-Herzegovina during which period of time he held command

24     responsibility within the Bosnian army and that the investigation may

25     subsequently bring out facts which might involve my own responsibility."

Page 1631

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And were you -- or are you aware of whether General Halilovic was

 3     in fact ever indicted or tried by the ICTY?

 4        A.   I have no knowledge, no.

 5        Q.   If we could go to page 28 in this document in e-court, please.

 6     There's a reference at the very first paragraph.

 7             If we could go to the top of the page, please.  Thank you.

 8             To a meeting of 2nd December 1991.  And you were asked ...

 9             MS. BOLTON:  Court's indulgence.

10             And then if we could scroll to the bottom of this same page,

11     please.

12        Q.   Another segment that was put you to was the very last

13     paragraph here which reads: "It was obvious that the war was

14     unavoidable."  And it talks about their efforts to try to secure weapons

15     quickly at that time.

16             Do you have any personal knowledge of what efforts were being

17     made by the Bosnians to secure weapons at that time?

18        A.   No, I don't.

19        Q.   It was suggested to you in questions yesterday that the Muslims

20     were buying weapons on the black market and that this was being done with

21     money being obtained from the Middle East.  Do you have any knowledge as

22     to whether or not that was true?

23        A.   No, I have no knowledge of that.

24        Q.   Or whether they expended millions of dollars on such equipment?

25        A.   No.

Page 1632

 1        Q.   And whether or not President Izetbegovic personally authorised

 2     that work?

 3        A.   No, I'm not aware of that.

 4        Q.   And do you have any idea as to when those -- sorry, I withdraw

 5     that question.

 6             You were asked --

 7             MS. BOLTON:  I'm done with this document, thank you.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before the document leaves I would like -- can we

 9     scroll up, please.

10             I would like to take particular note of the second paragraph from

11     the top and ask for your comment if you have any, Mr. Doyle, particularly

12     the sentence that says:  "It," the national Defence committee, which was

13     the basis for the formation of the Patriotic League, "It consisted of an

14     alliance of all the Bosnian patriotic forces regardless of cultural,

15     ethnic, or religious origins."  Do you have any comment to make on that

16     in the light of questions put to you yesterday about the ethnicity of the

17     membership of the league?

18             THE WITNESS:  Well, it seems to be -- if we're talking about it

19     being under the control of the SDA, or Muslims, the sentence saying:  "It

20     consisted of an allegiance of all Bosnian patriotic forces regardless of

21     cultural, ethnic, or religious origins," that seems to be -- to be a

22     contradiction in terms.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

24             The document may get off.

25             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 1633

 1        Q.   You were asked some questions today about the fact that that the

 2     barracks in Sarajevo -- or at least one barracks in Sarajevo was

 3     surrounded on May 2nd, 1992.  You recall that line of questioning?

 4        A.   Yes, I do.

 5        Q.   Do you have any information or knowledge as to what the purpose

 6     was of surrounding the barracks?

 7        A.   I -- I don't have any detailed knowledge as to why it occurred,

 8     no.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Bolton, how much longer are you going to be?

10             MS. BOLTON:  I think five minutes, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

12             MS. BOLTON:

13        Q.   You were asked today about a report from the area of -- I want to

14     pronounce it Neum, N-e-u-m, about Croatian forces on Bosnian soil.  Other

15     than in that area, did you have any other reports of Croatian forces on

16     Bosnian soil?

17        A.   No, all of the forces were confined to western Herzegovina.

18        Q.   And in terms of -- you were asked about public proclamations by

19     the European Community condemning the presence of Croatian troops on the

20     territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina and you said you weren't aware of any.

21     Were you aware of whether the United Nations Security Council ever issued

22     any statements or resolutions in regards to the matter?

23        A.   I'm not aware, no.

24        Q.   You told us -- in response to some questions today, my friend

25     suggested -- had some questions about your conversation with

Page 1634

 1     General Ninkovic when he relayed the message that you wouldn't be allowed

 2     by General Mladic to the area of the 9th Corps.  If I could refer you to

 3     paragraph 37 of your statement, there's an indication there that you had

 4     a meeting with General Ninkovic, and you -- I take it, at the 10th Corps

 5     in Bihac on the 17th of January, 1992.

 6             Do you recall whether the information about General Mladic not

 7     allowing access was conveyed at that meeting or another meeting?

 8        A.   It was my understanding it was at that meeting.

 9        Q.   You were asked some questions today about paramilitary forces in

10     the TV building in Sarajevo.  Did you have occasion to actually be inside

11     the TV building in Sarajevo?

12        A.   Yes, I was frequently there.

13        Q.   And when you were in the building, did you ever see signs of any

14     military installations?

15        A.   Never.

16        Q.   Paramilitary forces?

17        A.   No, not to my knowledge.  I did not see any armed forces in the

18     television building.

19        Q.   Any weapons?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   And where is the TV building relative to the PTT building?

22        A.   It's -- it's pretty close.  I can't remember exactly, but

23     certainly within half a kilometre.  Could be even closer.  I can't now

24     remember.  But it was during the period that I used to visit the

25     United Nations who were based in the PTT building, so it wasn't very

Page 1635

 1     hard -- it wasn't that far from the television station.

 2        Q.   When you were having the talks about the JNA withdrawal from the

 3     barracks in May 1992, where were they held?

 4        A.   They were held in the PTT building.

 5        Q.   Okay.  And did you ever hear any outgoing fire from -- or see any

 6     outgoing fire from the TV building --

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   -- during those talks?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   Those are all my questions.  I thank you very much, sir.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Madam Bolton.

12             Mr. Doyle, thank you so much for coming to the Tribunal to

13     testify.  We've now come to the conclusion of your testimony.  You may

14     now stand down.  You are released.  And may you travel well back home.

15             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

17                           [The witness withdrew]

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

19             Yes, Mr. Groome.

20             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I realise we are approaching the time

21     for the break.  I do have important information with respect to the next

22     witness, that's witness's ability to proceed this afternoon.  If we have

23     a few moments, I can update the Chamber.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Please do.

25             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, just prior to the start of this

Page 1636

 1     session, a representative of the victim and witnesses services asked to

 2     speak with me and informed me that a chronic medical condition of RM115

 3     had been exacerbated.  Over the course of this session, we've now been

 4     informed that it has become acute and the witness has been returned to

 5     the hotel room.

 6             I stepped out of the chamber around 11.30 to see if I could

 7     organise or advance the witness -- one of the witnesses from next week,

 8     and that is proving impossible.  So it seems that there are no witnesses

 9     that we can call to the stand this afternoon.

10             I apologise for that, but it is an unforeseen event.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Quite understandable.  Thank you so much for that

12     update.

13             In that event, can we stay a little longer so that we do some

14     housekeeping matters before we break for the day.

15             First of all, I just wanted to ask the Prosecution, I -- yes,

16     Madam Bolton, asking you, with respect to P99 MFI, have you been able to

17     get a B/C/S translation?  It was MFI'd yesterday because of the

18     translation issue.

19             MS. BOLTON:  I'm advised that it is not yet available but it

20     should be available later today.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Can you remember on Monday then, to make

22     sure that -- or ask whoever from you comes to court --

23             MS. BOLTON:  Ms. Stewart will remember on Monday.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Madam Stewart.

25             The next point, there is an oral decision that the Chamber would

Page 1637

 1     like to render.  Actually, it's not a decision.  These are reasons for a

 2     decision and a decision.  I'm going to correct myself one more time.

 3     They're reasons for a decision and a decision.  Okay.

 4             Reasons for decision on Prosecution motion for leave to file an

 5     amended Rule 65 ter summary for Witness RM147 and decision on the

 6     amendments to the Rule 65 ter summaries of Witnesses RM039 and RM078.

 7             The Chamber will now deliver the reason for its decisions

 8     granting the Prosecution motion for leave to file an amended Rule 65 ter

 9     summary for Witness RM147 and denying the Defence request to postpone

10     hearing of this witness's testimony which was informally communicated to

11     the parties on 20 July 2012.

12             It will also deliver its decision with regard to the Rule 65 ter

13     summaries for Witnesses RM039 and RM078.  In this respect, the Chamber

14     grants the Prosecution's request for leave to reply with regard to

15     Witness RM078 filed on the 22nd August 2012.

16             On the 11th of June, 2012, the Prosecution requested leave to

17     amend its Rule 65 ter witness summary for this witness so as to include

18     additional information arising from a proofing session held on the 2nd

19     and 3rd of June, 2012 concerning primarily the alleged shelling of

20     Sarajevo on the 28th and 29th May 1992, as described in

21     Scheduled Incident G1 of the indictment.  The new information was set out

22     in a consolidated witness statement signed by the witness on 3 June and

23     disclosed to the Defence on the 8th of June, 2012.

24             The Prosecution submitted that the sought amendment to the

25     witness's Rule 65 ter summary would be consistent with the interests of

Page 1638

 1     justice and would cause no prejudice to the accused, Mr. Mladic.

 2             On the 25th of June, 2012, the Defence requested that the motion

 3     be denied as the proposed amendments sought to change material aspects of

 4     the witness's testimony and caused, as such, undue prejudice to the

 5     Defence.  In the alternative, requested that the testimony of

 6     Witness RM147 be delayed by 90 days so as to allow adequate time for the

 7     Defence to prepare for his testimony.

 8             The Chamber emphasises that the purpose of Rule 65 ter witness

 9     summaries is to notify the opposing party and the Chamber of the content

10     of evidence expected to be elicited from a witness.  Such notice should

11     be given sufficiently in advance of a witness's testimony so as to enable

12     the opposing party to prepare for the witness's cross-examination.  The

13     amendment sought for Witness RM147's Rule 65 ter summary concerned

14     information which was included in the consolidated witness statement that

15     was disclosed to the Defence on the 8th of June, 2012 and in the

16     Prosecution's 11th of June, 2012 motion.  As such, the Chamber considered

17     that the Defence had been on notice of the Prosecution's intention to

18     lead the proposed additional evidence sufficiently in advance of the

19     witness's testimony which is scheduled for the week of the 27th of

20     August, 2012.

21             The Defence did not sufficiently demonstrate that the witness's

22     testimony would need to be delayed due to the additional information to

23     be elicited.

24             For similar reasons, the Chamber allows the requested amendments

25     to the Rule 65 ter summaries concerning Witnesses RM039 and RM078.  The

Page 1639

 1     requests, which specify the information sought to be added to the

 2     relevance summaries, place the Defence sufficiently on notice of the

 3     evidence the Prosecution intends to elicit from these witnesses.

 4             As for the Defence submission that parts of the transcript of a

 5     past testimony of Witness RM078 have not been disclosed by the

 6     Prosecution, the Chamber notes that it appears that the relevant pages of

 7     the transcript have been disclosed and, in any event, are publicly

 8     available on the Tribunal's web site.

 9             The Chamber would like to provide the parties with general

10     guidance with regard to amendments to the Rule 65 ter witness summaries.

11     It considers that, in principle, the parties do not need to seek leave to

12     amend these summaries.  It is sufficient to provide the opposing party

13     and the Chamber with adequate notice of such amendments as soon as

14     possible, and, in any event, sufficiently in advance of the witness's

15     testimony.  Should the opposing party consider that eliciting the new

16     information would cause undue prejudice, it may request the calling party

17     to reschedule the testimony of the witness concerned or seek any other

18     appropriate relief from the Chamber.

19             This concludes the Chamber's reasons for its decision concerning

20     RM147 and its oral decision on the amendments to the Rule 65 ter

21     summaries of Witnesses RM039 and RM078.

22             Are there any housekeeping matter that any of the parties has?

23             Mr. Groome.

24                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

25             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, just -- the only housekeeping matter

Page 1640

 1     that the Prosecution would seek to raise is -- or just ask the Chamber,

 2     since RM147 is scheduled to testify next week, if we could have some

 3     information when we might expect some decisions.  There are a few pending

 4     applications with respect to that witness.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sitting where I am, I can say as soon as possible.

 6             MR. GROOME:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Which is not very helpful, I understand.

 8             MR. GROOME:  I appreciate that.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  Thank you.

10             Mr. Lukic, anything?

11             MR. LUKIC:  The Defence has nothing to raise at this point.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic.  Well, in that

13     case ...

14                           [Trial Chamber confers]

15             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, your microphone is on.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We were, in any case, going to tell you what we

17     were saying.

18             Is the Prosecution in a position to tell the Chamber and the

19     Defence whether the witness who was not able to testify today will be

20     able to testify on Monday, or -- and/or if not, whether you are able to

21     have an alternative witness.

22             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, RM147 was a witness that has some

23     restrictions on their availability, and that is the witness that we have

24     scheduled for Monday.  So what we would propose to do is proceed on

25     Monday with RM147.  The witness who became ill today, RM115, if that

Page 1641

 1     witness returns to good health, then we would call that witness

 2     immediately after that.  And then proceed with Mr. Jordan after that.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  Do I therefore understand

 4     that you want these decisions before Monday?  These pending decisions

 5     with respect to RM147.

 6             MR. GROOME:  Or at least informal communication so we can prepare

 7     the witness and can finalize our preparations, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We'll do our best.

 9             MR. GROOME:  Thank you, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

11             In that event, we stand adjourned to Monday morning, 9.00 -- 9.30

12     in Courtroom I.  Am I right?  Thank you so much.

13             Court adjourned.

14                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.36 p.m.,

15                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 27th day of August,

16                           2012, at 9.30 a.m.