120824IT

Page 1585

1 problems in the morning, that's why we started late.

2 Just to remind you that you are still bound by the declaration

3 you made at the beginning of your testimony to tell the truth, the whole

4 truth, and nothing but the truth.

5 THE WITNESS: I understand, Your Honours.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Doyle.

7 Yes, Mr. Ivetic.

8 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

9 WITNESS: COLM DOYLE [Resumed]

10 Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic: [Continued]

11 MR. IVETIC:

12 Q. Good morning again, Colonel. I would like to break down the

13 question I asked and ask you sir: As part of the European Community

14 Monitoring Mission, did your organisation have any knowledge reported to

15 them about the SDA having 80.000 men under arms in the -- on the

16 territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina during the relevant time-period?

17 A. No, it did not.

18 Q. Did your organisation have knowledge of the establishment of 98

19 municipal headquarters on the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina by the SDA

20 at that time --

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Ivetic, do you want to know whether the

22 organisation had knowledge or whether the witness had knowledge.

23 MR. IVETIC: I apologise. You're correct, Your Honour.

24 Q. Sir, did you have knowledge of the establishment of 98 municipal

25 headquarters by the SDA on the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

Page 1586

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Bolton.

2 MS. BOLTON: Yes, I'm sorry. The way the question is worded, I

3 still object to.

4 The question of whether he had knowledge is only relevant if, in

5 fact, the fact is true. So if, in fact, there were 80.000 men, then

6 whether or not he knew about it is relevant. But without asking him if

7 that's a fact that he knew to be true, then there's no relevance to

8 whether he knew something that may or may not have been true.

9 It may just be the way that it's worded. It may be that my

10 friend is actually trying to ask, Are you aware -- or, you know, is that

11 something that you can confirm or deny. But it's the way it's being

12 worded that I object to.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Ivetic, any response?

14 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I believe I have been very clear and I

15 think that the question is proper, but I will be guided by Your Honours

16 in any way that you decide. Thank you.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Doyle, do you know of the strength of the Army

18 of the Bosnian -- the strength of the Bosnian army at the time that

19 Mr. Ivetic is asking about?

20 THE WITNESS: No, Your Honour, I did not.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

22 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour, for your assistance.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] You're welcome.

24 MR. IVETIC:

25 Q. Sir, during your contacts with Serb personnel in

Page 1587

1 Bosnia-Herzegovina during the time-period that you were part of the

2 mission and part of Lord Carrington's separate negotiating team, did

3 these Serb personnel complain to you of the existence of SDA-sponsored

4 armed paramilitary groups?

5 A. No, not specifically.

6 Q. Based upon -- strike that.

7 Would you agree with me that whatever the number of these armed

8 Bosnian Muslim personnel on the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina, that

9 they were paramilitary in nature? That is to say, illegal.

10 A. No. The monitor mission and I personally was aware that there

11 was a considerable amount of Bosnian Serbs that were not members of the

12 JNA but were termed by us to be paramilitary. The exact break down of

13 them we didn't have knowledge of. At that time there was a lot of people

14 moving about who were bearing arms. They didn't wear uniforms. So the

15 mission would have collectively referred to them as paramilitaries.

16 Q. And, sir, you have limited your answer to Bosnian Serbs. Would I

17 be correct that Bosnian Muslims who were not a part of the JNA at that

18 time walking around armed were also paramilitaries under that definition?

19 A. Yes, I would say there were. But the comparison in numbers was

20 extremely unequal.

21 Q. Would you agree with me that insofar as the assertions of

22 Mr. Halilovic were unknown to you at the time, that they would have to be

23 investigated in order to reach a full and accurate assessment, as in

24 paragraph 15 of your statement, as to which parties were armed - and I do

25 apologise -- oh, you do have your statement, paragraph 15 of your

Page 1588

1 statement - and the assessment that you made therein?

2 A. I would say the monitor mission at that time was not -- it wasn't

3 its role to actually ascertain numbers, figures, or armaments. As I

4 previously explained, it was important for us to hold our impartiality.

5 Therefore, we weren't in the area of investigating numbers or armaments

6 of that nature.

7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: For the record, the statement is P91.

8 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Judge Fluegge.

9 Q. Colonel Doyle, would you agree with me that at that time that

10 we're talking about, let us say 1991 up through March of 1992 when you

11 were with the European Community Monitoring Mission, during that time the

12 JNA was the legitimate armed force of the socialist federated republic of

13 Yugoslavia, of which Bosnia-Herzegovina was still a member?

14 A. Yes, I agree.

15 Q. Sir, General Halilovic asserted the existence of diversionary

16 units on the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Would you agree with me

17 that such units are usually clandestine in nature and utilise sabotage

18 and subterfuge to obtain mission objectives?

19 A. I'm not familiar with the term "diversionary units." I don't

20 know what they mean.

21 Q. Fair enough.

22 MR. IVETIC: If we can briefly turn to Prosecution 65 ter 10944.

23 And I apologise, let me just check to see if that one has a number.

24 That's P93. And once that comes up on the system, if we can look at the

25 first page in English.

Page 1589

1 And, sir, while that is coming up on the screen I can give you an

2 introduction. This report authored by you from March 1992 memorialises

3 several demands of the SDS that you were relaying as part of your report,

4 and it -- one of the demands is for disbandment of the, quote/unquote,

5 Green Berets who are identified as the special security for the SDA

6 party. And I wanted just verify with you, would this be the Bosnian

7 Muslim political party affiliated with Mr. Izetbegovic that we had

8 discussed yesterday?

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Bolton.

10 MS. BOLTON: I'm sorry, maybe I'm slow, I'm just not seeing the

11 reference to Green Berets on that page. Am I missing it? Oh, yes, no,

12 thank you. Sorry, it's the last line. My apologies.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Ivetic.

14 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.

15 Q. Colonel Doyle, am I correct that the Green Berets were the

16 special security for the SDA party of Mr. Izetbegovic?

17 A. Yes, I'd say they were, but I'm -- the reference directly to

18 Izetbegovic I don't think is accurate. It was the special security for

19 the SDA, not necessarily the president. You referred to the SDA party,

20 and then you referred to President Izetbegovic. I would agree they were

21 part of the SDA party. Not necessarily -- you're saying that as if they

22 were personally his troops. That's not the reference I would --

23 Q. I apologise for a poorly worded question and I thank you for your

24 explanation, which answers what I was asking.

25 Now, I want to turn to paragraph 63 of your statement.

Page 1590

1 MR. IVETIC: And, if in the meantime, we pull up in e-court

2 Prosecution 65 ter number 10969. Sir, in this paragraph of your

3 statement you discuss the Croatian element in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and I'd

4 like to present to you this document and ask you to confirm whether, in

5 fact, this is also a report authored by you while part of the European

6 Community Monitoring Mission?

7 A. Yes, it was my report.

8 Q. Okay. And with respect to the first page of the report, and if

9 we can zoom in on the second half. It starts at the middle of the page

10 and goes down. We have here you have stated: "We have in territory Neum

11 a de facto invasion of Bosnia-Herzegovina by the Croatian Army. There

12 are large numbers of Croatian soldiers involved, but they are described

13 by the Croatian Army as local defence forces, which the Croatian Army

14 cannot control. These local defence forces are (admitted by Croatian

15 Army) equipped, organised, and advised by the Croatian Army. They use

16 Croatian Army trucks with Croatian Army markings, have new rifles, new

17 uniforms, new steel helmets, and come to work every evening from the Neum

18 and Metkovic areas [sic]."

19 Sir, my first question in relation to this is would you agree

20 with me that these facts also need to be considered in regards to your

21 assessment at paragraph 15 of your report, that one side in Bosnia was

22 becoming armed, and would you agree with me now having been reminded of

23 the words in your report?

24 A. The report was made out after I paid a visit to the area of Neum

25 and expressed my surprise at the open way in which Croatian flags and

Page 1591

1 troops wearing -- Croatian uniforms were being worn, and I felt obliged

2 to bring the content of my findings both to the monitor mission and to

3 the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

4 Q. And would you agree with me that this information is relevant to

5 your assessment in paragraph 15 of your statement that only one side was

6 being armed in Bosnia-Herzegovina? To complete the picture and

7 supplement your assessment.

8 A. Yes, you could make that assertion all right.

9 Q. Thank you, sir. Do you happen to know approximately how many

10 Croatian Army troops had crossed over into Bosnia-Herzegovina with new

11 rifles and new uniforms that are the subject of your report here that we

12 have in front of us?

13 A. No, I don't have any idea of the exact numbers. These are

14 reports that were given to me by people who lived in the area.

15 Q. If we can turn to the next page, I think we can then also talk

16 about some other matters that people in the area told you. On the next

17 page at the top -- starting at the top. I will not read the entire

18 section, but you are welcome to refer to any section there.

19 Sir, in this part of the report you talk about the ECMM

20 investigation that went and talked to villagers and found that contrary

21 to the complaints made by the mayor of Neum, the local villagers had no

22 problems with the JNA and that the JNA did not abuse them and was well

23 behaved but, in fact, the Croatian Army forces were threatening and

24 abusing villagers.

25 Is that -- does that comport with your recollection of what the

Page 1592

1 results of the ECMM investigation in this area revealed to you?

2 A. Well, if I can briefly explain here, the monitor mission in

3 Bosnia-Herzegovina did not carry out any investigation. This would have

4 been done by the monitor mission in Croatia itself that would been of

5 covering those areas from where those troops may have come from. Now, as

6 I previously explained, communications between both sides of the monitor

7 mission were not open and clear at that stage, so I was basing this on

8 information I would have received and on reports that may have been given

9 by the monitor mission on the other side.

10 Q. Thank you, sir. And, sir, am I correct that despite the fact

11 that you reported up to your superiors the existence of these Croatian

12 troops on the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina, that, in fact, there were

13 no public proclamations by the EC condemning the presence of these troops

14 on this territory?

15 A. I have no knowledge of whether there was not at that time. I

16 can't -- I can't say whether there was any pronouncement or not.

17 Q. Would you expect that any pronouncements that were made would

18 have been made and available to you, that you would know about them?

19 A. No, not necessarily. I had very little political contact

20 outside. I dealt strictly with my own chain of command.

21 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, I believe from reviewing your other reports

22 and some of your testimony in, for instance, the Milosevic or Karadzic

23 cases, that you also have knowledge of two other groups, the ZNG and the

24 HOS. Is that accurate?

25 A. I was familiar with the phrase HOS. The ZNG I'm not familiar

Page 1593

1 with.

2 Q. It might have been a report authored by one your colleagues, I

3 apologise.

4 With respect to the HOS, would you agree that this was also an

5 armed group that could be coined a paramilitary operating within the

6 territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina during the time-period that you were part

7 of the ECMM mission?

8 A. Yes, I would accept that.

9 Q. And if you know, what ethnic political or national group were

10 behind the HOS?

11 A. Croats.

12 Q. Thank you. I'd like to now move along to another topic, sir.

13 MR. IVETIC: First of all, Your Honours, this is, I believe,

14 already -- yeah, it's already an exhibit. I apologise.

15 Q. As part of your briefing --

16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Which number, Mr. Ivetic?

17 MR. IVETIC: This is P93, Your Honours.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah, P93 is already in. But you have been

19 handling 65 ter 10969. We'd like to know what you intend to do with

20 that.

21 MR. IVETIC: One moment, Your Honours. If I can find which one

22 that is.

23 969, Your Honours?

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] was it 969 or 169? I'm

25 sorry, we have two different numbers with --

Page 1594

1 MR. IVETIC: I'm sorry, Your Honours. 10969 I would like to

2 tender that into evidence.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: 10969.

4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Previously it was recorded that you mentioned

5 10169. So that is a correction now.

6 MR. IVETIC: I apologise Your Honours, and thank you for that

7 correction.

8 MS. BOLTON: No objection, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

10 65 ter 10969 is admitted into evidence. May it please be given

11 an exhibit number, Madam Registrar.

12 THE REGISTRAR: 10969 becomes Exhibit D38, Your Honours.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.

14 Yes, Mr. Ivetic.

15 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

16 Q. Colonel, as part of your briefing in preparation for the

17 deployment to Yugoslavia, did the -- did you receive any primers on the

18 political platforms or policies of any of the political parties in

19 Bosnia-Herzegovina such as the SDA?

20 A. No, beyond being briefed on the makeup and beyond being informed

21 that there were three main political parties, but we were given no

22 details.

23 Q. Did you -- or were you aware of the fact that Mr. Izetbegovic had

24 republished an earlier book that he had written in 1990 shortly before

25 the ECMM became involved in -- or was deployed to the territory of

Page 1595

1 Yugoslavia?

2 A. No.

3 Q. I would like to briefly just show you one page from 1D00172, and

4 it would be the 30th page in e-court in English and the 22nd page in

5 B/C/S. This is from the 1990 book of Mr. Izetbegovic, "The Islamic

6 Declaration."

7 MS. BOLTON: Yes, Your Honours. I'd have an objection to the

8 witness being questioned about this document. This is a book, as my

9 friend indicates, published in 1969 to 1970, originally. It is -- first

10 of all, I can indicate that the copy that is in e-court doesn't have a

11 publishing location or the name of the publisher. I can't tell if the

12 book -- if this is actually a true copy or a true translation of the

13 book. It just says "Sarajevo 1990."

14 And, secondly what on earth could this witness have to say about

15 a book that was written that does -- 1969/1970? It's not going to

16 contain any information about Mr. Doyle or his mission, because clearly

17 he wasn't there in 1969 or 1990. He didn't write -- he is not the author

18 of the book. He's just going to be asking him to comment on some

19 passages and it's an inappropriate line of questioning. He is not going

20 to have any facts, knowledge of this -- contents of his book or what --

21 and his opinion on whatever is said in the book isn't going to have any

22 relevance. He is not here as an expert.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Bolton, can I suggest that you wait until an

24 objectionable question is asked and then you object.

25 Thank you.

Page 1596

1 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours. And just for the record,

2 so I can already allay any fears, I'm not seeking to introduce this. I'm

3 just following the practice I've had, for the benefit of the translators

4 and the witness, of having items that I want to ask him about presented

5 on e-court. I will not be seeking to tender this because I do not

6 believe the witness can -- the witness to introduce this type of book

7 into evidence.

8 Q. Sir, I believe we have the relevant page, page 30 in the English

9 and page 22 in the B/C/S. And the brief selection I want to ask you

10 about starts off, I believe, in the middle of that page. And it says:

11 "First and foremost of these conclusions is certainly the incompatibility

12 of Islam with non-Islamic systems. There can be neither peace nor

13 co-existence between the Islamic religion and non-Islamic social and

14 political institutions."

15 And the question I wanted to have for you sir is: In the course

16 of your dealings and contacts with Mr. Izetbegovic, did he espouse such a

17 position that there could not be peaceful co-existence between Islamic

18 and non-Islam institutions in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

19 A. No, he did not.

20 Q. Was the -- were the views expressed by Mr. Izetbegovic in this

21 book constantly causing concern for non-Islamic members of

22 Bosnia-Herzegovina political leaders with whom you had contact as part of

23 the ECMM mission? Was this book constantly being raised as a fear on

24 behalf of Croat and Muslim political officials in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

25 A. Not to my knowledge.

Page 1597

1 Q. I apologise. I meant Croat and Serb. Did you understand my

2 question? Was it being -- [Overlapping speakers].

3 A. Yes, I understand your question. No, it wasn't.

4 Q. Thank you. Then I move on. In paragraphs 91 through 95 of your

5 statement, you discuss the incidents that occurred beginning of the

6 2nd of May 1992 when Bosnian Muslim paramilitaries, as you phrase it,

7 surrounded the JNA headquarters and the subsequent negotiations to try

8 and release this blockade to effectuate the withdrawal of the JNA, and

9 you briefly mention the attack person perpetrated by these Bosnian Muslim

10 paramilitaries upon the withdrawing JNA.

11 With that as a background, I'd like to show you a document

12 labelled 1D0011. And while we wait for that, sir, this is dated the 29th

13 of April, 1992, just a few days before this time-period when you say that

14 the paramilitaries surrounded the JNA, and while we're waiting for the

15 document, first --

16 THE REGISTRAR: I apologise. Document 1D0011 is not in e-court.

17 MR. IVETIC: I apologise. Let me double-check the number.

18 I'm sorry, it's 1D00111. 111.

19 Q. And perhaps, sir, while we're waiting for that I can ask you in

20 the course of your dealings - there we go - in the course of your

21 dealings with personnel in Bosnia-Herzegovina, did you ever have occasion

22 to hear the name or become familiar with an individual by name of

23 Hasan Efendic?

24 A. I'm not familiar with the name. If I knew what the appointment

25 was, I might have a recollection of -- of -- of who this person was.

Page 1598

1 But, offhand, no.

2 Q. Well, sir, perhaps this document can refresh your recollection.

3 This is a document that purports to the headquarter of the

4 Territorial Defence of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and it's

5 signed by Commanding Officer Colonel Hasan Efendic. Does that refresh

6 your recollection?

7 A. No. Actually, I don't remember this officer.

8 Q. Fair enough. If we look at the items marked 1 through 4 in the

9 middle of this order, and first of all we see from the text it's an

10 order. This essentially orders that the units of the Republic of

11 Bosnia-Herzegovina Territorial Defence blockade the roads, blockade the

12 JNA barracks, and orders the immediate planning and initiation of

13 military action throughout the entire territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

14 Do these orders appear to coincide with the facts that you witnessed and

15 testified about occurring in Sarajevo starting 2 March 1992?

16 A. Let me just explain this, if I may.

17 From that period of the start of May, I had no direct personal

18 involvement. When you refer, for example, to the events that took place

19 around the besieged headquarters, I was held as a hostage in Lukavica by

20 the JNA because in my negotiations to release the president, the

21 commander did not want to allow his daughter to accompany him. So the

22 agreement was I would stay behind as collateral, as it were. So I was

23 not accompanying the president or General McKenzie when they went to

24 exchange him, and therefore I did not see the military barracks that had

25 been besieged at that stage.

Page 1599

1 Q. Thank you, sir. You mentioned -- I apologise. At paragraph 94

2 of your statement you identify that a certain number of JNA soldiers were

3 killed, and I believe you say approximately 170 soldiers were captured as

4 part of this withdrawal when they were attacked. Do you recall that, in

5 fact, that the number was 29 JNA personnel killed as part of this convoy?

6 A. I have no information as to the exact number who -- that were

7 killed. There were various figures being bandied about by all sides.

8 When I was held behind in Lukavica, there was a police officer

9 who was repeating information he claimed he was getting from the centre

10 of Sarajevo. Most of the information was totally exaggerated. I was

11 told that bodies were being burnt, that soldiers were being stripped

12 naked, so it was very difficult to know exactly. I was basing these

13 figures on the estimated number as given to me by the monitor mission.

14 Q. Fair enough, sir. You've anticipated my next question. Did the

15 monitoring mission also advise you that on that same time-period, that

16 same two-day-time period, that there were other attacks in other parts of

17 Bosnia-Herzegovina upon JNA convoys that were withdrawing from barracks?

18 A. I did not have any information of that nature, no.

19 Q. Okay.

20 A. And may I just repeat that at that stage I was not a member of

21 the monitoring mission. I was a personal representative of

22 Lord Carrington and therefore would not have been seeking such

23 information from the monitor mission.

24 Q. Thank you. And you're absolutely correct in that clarification.

25 Yesterday you mentioned that during direct examination that the

Page 1600

1 ECMM monitors from Bosnia were not permitted to visit the 9th JNA Army

2 Corps due to General Mladic. Am I correct that the 9th Corps was based

3 not in Bosnia but rather on the territory of Republic of Croatia?

4 A. Yes, at that stage. Yes, I think its headquarters would have

5 been in Knin which is in Croatia.

6 Q. And am I correct, then, that there was a separate ECMM mission

7 with a Colonel Puhoz [phoen] that was in charge of liaising with those

8 units stationed in that part of the Republic of Croatia's boundaries?

9 A. I -- I simply don't know. I do know that there was a liaison

10 officer attached to our mission, a JNA officer. But what prevailed in

11 Croatia, I don't know.

12 Q. And did you know that Mr. Mladic only assumed command of the

13 9th Corps on the 26th of December 1991 and that prior to him it would

14 have been Colonel Vukovic who was the commanding officer of that unit?

15 General Vukovic.

16 A. I don't exactly when General Mladic was appointed to the

17 9th Corps. You do make a reference to General Vukovic, and I did know a

18 General Vukovic who had assumed command of the 5th Corps in Banja Luka in

19 succession to General Uzelac. But when General Mladic took over command

20 of the 9th Corps, I don't know.

21 Q. Thank you. Sir, at paragraph 58 of your statement --

22 MR. IVETIC: And we can -- we can leave this -- we can move this

23 document. I do not need to use it any further. I do not wish to seek it

24 through this witness.

25 Q. At paragraph 58 of your statement you talk with the withdrawal of

Page 1601

1 the referendum monitors and you talk about going through some barricades

2 on the way to the airport in a JNA-led convoy. Am I correct that this

3 was -- the approximately the 2nd of March?

4 A. Yes, that's correct, yes.

5 Q. Your statement talks only of intimidation from militant Serbs at

6 the barricades. Weren't there also SDA barricades manned by armed

7 Bosnian Muslims that you had to pass through as well?

8 A. Not on that occasion, no.

9 Q. Do you remember the name of the JNA colonel that you liaised with

10 in regards to that convoy and was it perhaps Colonel -- Lieutenant

11 Colonel Slobodan Dimitrijevic?

12 A. Correct.

13 MR. IVETIC: If we can have 1D00121 in e-court. And my focus is

14 on the first page in both languages.

15 Q. Sir, what we will be shown in a moment is a report dated the 2nd

16 of March, 1992. And it is made by the command of the 2nd Military

17 District of the JNA. It's not apparent on the first page but later when

18 we get to the second page I think you will see the sign by

19 Major General Aksentijevic and references at both Lieutenant

20 Slobodan Dimitrijevic and Franjo Patacko [phoen] of the JNA assisted

21 militarisation of the task. But looking on the first page, this is a

22 report about an escort of monitors and it recites that preparations began

23 before the Holiday Inn at 1800 hours to evacuate the referendum

24 observers, and the third bullet point identifies a JNA passenger car, a

25 EC car with you and Mr. Kogan, and two JNA buses. Does this comport with

Page 1602

1 your recollection of the convoy that you are talking about in

2 paragraph 58 of your statement?

3 A. Yes, it does.

4 Q. Thank you, sir. If we can go to the fifth and sixth

5 paragraphs of this report and now I quote:

6 "At the very first barricade in the neighbourhood of Pofalici, we

7 encountered serious problems. Misunderstanding and mistrust from people

8 on the barricades. This was the case on all seven barricades on the road

9 to the airport, including three men by SDA, Party of Democratic Action,

10 members and three MUP, Ministry of Interior, check-points. The general

11 conclusion was that we went through the SDA barricades more easily

12 because of the presence of MUP representatives and Mr. Habib, while the

13 decisive arguments on the barricades held by Serbian civilians were the

14 authority of Admiral Brovet and the GS General Staff, whose order we

15 referred to, and lengthy persuasion to which it was stressed, that these

16 were eminent European and international officials."

17 Sir, does this report by Major-General Aksentijevic refresh your

18 recollection as to whether in fact you had to pass through three

19 barricades manned by Bosnian Muslim SDA members on the 2nd of March on

20 the way to the airport?

21 A. No, this report would not -- I would not agree with this report.

22 I had no knowledge that there were any SDA or MUP check-points. In fact,

23 I recalled that Mr. Habib was stopped at the first check-point and

24 ordered out of the convoy because I know it was Bosnian Serbs, and they

25 didn't particularly like him because he was an advisor to the Ministry of

Page 1603

1 the Interior. So Mr. Habib did not accompany us all the way to the

2 airport at all. He was told -- he was ordered off the convoy and he was

3 ordered out.

4 Q. Colonel, if I can -- if I could perhaps focus your answer.

5 Am I correct that Mr. Habib was not aloud into the airport and he

6 removed at the last check-point before the airport?

7 A. I -- my understanding was he -- he was removed earlier than that,

8 but that could be open to debate because I can't remember exactly which

9 but certainly he didn't get to the airport. He was removed.

10 Q. We agree on that point. Okay. Fair enough.

11 If -- in light of the witness's answers, then I don't think I can

12 admit this document through him so I will move onto another point.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Indeed. Thank you so much.

14 MR. IVETIC:

15 Q. In paragraph 75 through 76 of your statement, sir, you talk about

16 the negotiations for resolving the issue of the Sarajevo television

17 building, and this is a topic that you have testified about in other

18 trials; in the Karadzic case, for instance. In your statement, you focus

19 on this being related to a division of assets. Is that -- am I

20 accurately reflecting what is in the statement at these two paragraphs?

21 A. When I refer to "assets," in relation to the demand of the

22 Bosnian Serbs, the assets were the structure of the building, parts of

23 the building, not necessarily what was agreed in the -- in the

24 cease-fire. During negotiations for the cease-fire, it was agreed that

25 the Bosnian Serbs would be allowed more access to television time.

Page 1604

1 However, when I went to the television station on the day in question,

2 the Bosnian Serbs said no, what was agreed is that we would be given the

3 assets of the station. In other words, we give them so many parts, the

4 building would get television, cars, reporters, and studios, et cetera.

5 That was not the understanding of the cease-fire agreement and therefore

6 the talks didn't lead anywhere. So when I mention "assets," I'm talking

7 about physical assets, yes.

8 Q. And when we are talking about more air time for the Bosnian

9 Serbs, would that entail having a channel that would be available to them

10 to present whatever programming that they wish to present?

11 A. Well, I don't know that it would be a channel but it certainly

12 would be more time for them to broadcast what they wished. I don't know

13 whether that would have been required a channel or not, but ...

14 Q. Fair enough.

15 A. Yeah.

16 Q. With respect to what I'm looking at now, sir, am I correct that

17 your understanding of the Muslim position as communicated to you was that

18 they were happy with the status quo and did not want any changes?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. I would like to show you a letter. It's number 1D0014 in

21 e-court. It is dated the 23rd of March, 1992 signed.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Not in e-court, Your Honours.

23 MR. IVETIC: I apologise.

24 1D00114.

25 Your Honours, I'm told that one hour has passed from when we

Page 1605

1 started. I apologise for not bringing that to the attention --

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, I was going to draw your attention to it at

3 11.00 sharp. Indeed, you are right. Is this a convenient time?

4 MR. IVETIC: It is, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: And you can sort out 1D00114 in the meantime.

6 MR. LUKIC: That would be great, Your Honours.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

8 Mr. Doyle, we've been an hour inside. We're going to take a

9 break for 20 minutes. Come back at 20 past 11.00, please.

10 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Please stand down.

12 [The witness stands down]

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: We'll take a break and come back at 20 past 11.00.

14 Court adjourned.

15 --- Recess taken at 10.59 a.m.

16 --- On resuming at 11.22 a.m.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before we continue, Mr. Ivetic --

18 Mr. Lukic, when you announced Mr. Mladic's apology, we were in

19 private session, and you said he's apologising to everybody, and I think

20 it's in the interests of both him and justice that it be in open session.

21 Then we'll order then that that private session, that confidential part

22 of the testimony be uplifted.

23 Madam Registrar, thank you so much.

24 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the witness please be called in.

Page 1606

1 [The witness takes the stand]

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Ivetic, 1D00114.

3 MR. IVETIC: That's correct, Your Honours, and I see that we have

4 it up on the system. I thank the Madam Registrar for correcting my

5 misstatement of the number.

6 Q. Colonel, we have before us a letter signed by Harun Imamovic from

7 the SDA city board for Sarajevo, and the part that I would like to focus

8 on for purposes of my discussion with you is in the middle in both the

9 B/C/S and English and begins:

10 "The Sarajevo SDA city board believes that every division of

11 Sarajevo TV into ethnic channels is out of the question, as it would not

12 suit the interests of the Muslim people.

13 "In addition, we would like to say that in order to protect our

14 ethnic interests, it is imperative that the general manager of the RTV be

15 a Muslim as well as the editor-in-chief of the RTV.

16 "We deem this to be the minimum beneath which no talks should be

17 held."

18 Now, sir, would you agree with me that the content of this letter

19 would indicate that the Muslim population were looking for an

20 unreasonable demand as to the TV negotiations?

21 A. Yes, I would agree.

22 Q. Thank you, sir. Now if we can move to a related topic from

23 paragraph 77 of your statement. You mentioned the shelling of the TV

24 station.

25 MR. IVETIC: And I'd like to call up a document in e-court,

Page 1607

1 1D00175, and I do not intend to introduce the one that we have on the

2 screen, and again that's 1D00175.

3 Colonel the document that's coming up now, and shortly we'll have

4 the translation, is a report from the 17th Partisan Brigade of the JNA.

5 It is dated 23 April of 1992 and details the situation as reported by

6 this source in the Sarajevo TV building, and you can feel free to read

7 the English translation to yourself. I will summarise that it alleges

8 the presence of armed paramilitary formations in that building, and I

9 know that you already were questioned about this in the Karadzic case on

10 the 26th of May 2010 at transcript page 2718 and that you -- that your

11 testimony there was that you did not know about any alleged presence of

12 paramilitaries in that building.

13 I --

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Bolton.

15 MS. BOLTON: [Microphone not activated]

16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

17 MS. BOLTON: Sorry. I think if my friend wants to a put a

18 portion of his testimony from Karadzic to him, he should actually put the

19 actual excerpt. I don't think that's a fair statement of everything the

20 witness had to say on the topic.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Ivetic.

22 MR. IVETIC: I'd be happy to do that. I was trying to save time,

23 Your Honours. It's in e-court. If we could perhaps leave the English

24 translation of this document on the screen and, on the other side, if we

25 could pull up 1D0018, page 29. That is the transcript reference that I

Page 1608

1 was hoping to -- to discuss with the witness. 1D00118. Did I do it

2 again?

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yep.

4 MR. IVETIC: I apologise, Your Honours.

5 Q. And while we're waiting for that, sir, if I was -- my finishing

6 remark was going to be that I have a different set of questions for you,

7 but let's, first of all, see this section. It's the 29th page in

8 e-court.

9 And I believe it's at line 21, where you indicated that you have

10 no knowledge -- that you had no knowledge of this -- of this report or of

11 the alleges contained therein?

12 A. Correct.

13 Q. Thank you, sir. And my question was going to be, just to be

14 clear, is there only one TV building; that is to say, is this -- would --

15 would the TV building that is being referenced here have to be the TV

16 building that is in paragraph 77 of your statement?

17 A. Yes, I would -- yes, I would say so, yes.

18 Q. Fair enough. With respect to -- with respect to the allegation

19 of there being paramilitaries in a location, would you agree with me that

20 to arrive at the truth one would have to look into and investigate those

21 claims and find out the full picture before assessing fault for any

22 military strike on a target?

23 A. Sorry, could you re-direct that? I didn't fully understand the

24 question.

25 Q. Would you agree with me that before we assess fault for the

Page 1609

1 shelling of the TV building, someone would have to review and investigate

2 whether, in fact, there were armed paramilitaries operating in the

3 building that would affect the legitimacy of the decision to strike the

4 building?

5 A. Yes, I would. However, it would probably, in my view, depend on

6 what the reason behind it is. Is it actually to attack such units if

7 they did exist or was it still a target to actually attack the television

8 station itself? I don't know.

9 Q. I agree with you, and I agree that we don't know at this stage

10 that since no investigation was performed of that. But, sir, the

11 question I have for you, as someone who has been trained by the

12 Irish Defence Forces, and in the recitation of your background you talked

13 about 30 years experience in the military, and you had several positions

14 after the Irish Defence Forces: Would you agree with me that if a

15 civilian building is being used by a hostile force to open fire upon

16 another combatant, that that combatant is entitled to shoot back onto

17 that location to neutralise the threat? Hypothetical, of course, but ...

18 A. Well, I understand it's hypothetical, and I think I would

19 probably need to have more information before I could give an answer on

20 that, but basically I think I understand what you're getting at.

21 On the one hand, you know, a -- a television station can be under

22 certain circumstances a military target. It depends on what's coming out

23 of the television station. On the other, it's a part of an institution

24 of a state. So I think it probably would depend on the circumstances.

25 Q. Fair enough.

Page 1610

1 A. So I think that's the best I can do for you on that one.

2 Q. That's okay, sir -- Colonel. That's exactly where I stand as

3 well.

4 With respect to any military strikes, based upon your 30 years

5 experience, would you agree with me that all the care and technology in

6 the world cannot completely eliminate the prospect of civilian damage or

7 casualties that result from an otherwise legitimate military target being

8 struck?

9 A. I think I'm getting a little bit confused. Could you -- could

10 you just repeat that for me, please, until I give it some consideration.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Ivetic.

12 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: It looks like we're now in a legal discourse.

14 Don't we talk of collateral damage?

15 MR. IVETIC: Yes, we do with this.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: And isn't that --

17 MR. IVETIC: That's what I'm asking, Your Honours. Yes, that's

18 correct.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.

20 Mr. Doyle.

21 THE WITNESS: One of the great focuses or one of the great

22 problems we have in the military is the whole issue of collateral damage,

23 and of course in recent years and in recent conflicts it's become more

24 and more to the fore. We only have to think of the collateral damage

25 done to a premises in Belgrade. However, that's why I find it just

Page 1611

1 difficult to -- to side one way or the other on an issue of this nature.

2 But I would agree that an order for an attack on a premises, one would

3 want to be fairly sure that you're going about it the right way and it's

4 for a legitimate reason and that it is a legitimate target.

5 MR. IVETIC:

6 Q. Thank you. And if we can have just one more document that I

7 believe you -- I believe this one you haven't seen before.

8 MR. IVETIC: And this one -- the 17th Partisan Brigade document I

9 will not -- also not be seeking to tender as an exhibit at this time. If

10 we can call up, Madam Registrar, 1D00169.

11 Q. And, Colonel, as we wait for that to come up, I can preface my

12 remarks by saying that we will see that is a 11 May 1992 report of the

13 Ilidza police station, and if we go to the fourth page in the Serbian and

14 the second page in the English, I think we will see this selection that

15 also talks about the Sarajevo -- the RTV building. And Colonel, if I can

16 direct your attention to the part that begins, and I quote:

17 "We have acquired information that in the RTV Sarajevo building,

18 a large number of Green Berets are present daily; that is, there are 50

19 to 70 of them there at all times. They are led by Sejo Saric, who had

20 worked in the security services of this building previously. The

21 requisitor known as Boca is also one of the leaders and is also very

22 extreme. A group of the reserve police and Territorial Defence (TO) are

23 commanded by a certain Saban Sljem with the help of Bajrovic and some

24 Kasim. Among them are snipers Zeljko Jandric and Zoran Milovanovic,

25 specialists of the former MUP. They are armed with automatic weapons,

Page 1612

1 machine-guns, portable launchers, and bazookas. They carry a large

2 quantity of ammunition. During the attack on Svrakino Selo, 30 to 40

3 members of the Green Berets had arrived on the property of the TV

4 station. Portable launchers and bazookas are being placed on top of the

5 TV station by which they could fire at ranges up to 500 metres. We have

6 been told that their combat morale is not at a high level, which is

7 particularly visible prior to the bombing of the building."

8 And now, Colonel, first of all, the standard question: Am I

9 correct that this information was not known to you or available to you

10 prior to ...

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Bolton.

12 MR. IVETIC: Okay, I'll just ...

13 MS. BOLTON: Thank you. Again, there is no relevance to whether

14 the information was known to him unless the information was true. So he

15 should be asking any knowledge that there were, in fact, Green Berets in

16 the building not -- not presupposing again that the information is true.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, what is wrong with the question was the

18 information -- the information was not available to you? That's the

19 question put to the witness.

20 MS. BOLTON: I think the question as worded -- it's ambiguous

21 whether he's asking -- if he answers "yes," it would be ambiguous on the

22 record as to whether he's saying -- sorry, if he answers "no," it would

23 be ambiguous on the record as to whether he's saying, No the information

24 was never conveyed to me, or he is not given an opportunity to say, Well,

25 in fact -- to disagree with the information that's being put to him if

Page 1613

1 that's the case.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't know whether the -- whether counsel

3 intends to put the case to him, whether he disagrees with it. All he

4 wants to know is did you have this information at the time. And the

5 question [sic] is yes I did or no I did not. I don't think there can be

6 any ambiguity about that.

7 MS. BOLTON: Well, no, the answer -- the question as worded, Your

8 Honour, was was this information -- sorry. I think "conveyed" I think it

9 was.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: The question is -- let's read it as it was put:

11 "And now Colonel, first of all, the standard question, am I

12 correct that this information was not known to you or available to you

13 prior to ..."

14 And then you objected. Yes, it was not available to me; no, you

15 are wrong, it was available to me.

16 MS. BOLTON: All right. I -- I think the question is ambiguous

17 in my mind, Your Honour, but clearly you disagree and there is no point

18 in belabouring the point. Thank you.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.

20 Put the question, sir, exactly as it was put.

21 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. Sir, am I correct that this information was not available to you?

23 A. No, it was not available to me.

24 Q. And without getting into whether the matters asserted are

25 accurate and true or not, because neither you nor I can do that at this

Page 1614

1 point, I want to ask you: Would you agree with me that to reach an

2 accurate picture of the truth, these allegations of a building being used

3 to set up offensive weapons would have to be fully looked into before

4 assessing the legitimacy of a strike on a building?

5 A. Yes, they would. But I should state here that I was warned in

6 advance by Serbs that they were going to bomb the station if they did not

7 close it down. They did not say to me, We will bomb this station if this

8 or that. That was the specific. And I brought that personally to the

9 attention of Mr. Karadzic who assured me that it would not take place.

10 Q. And that's all in your statement in the paragraph that I

11 referenced --

12 A. Correct.

13 Q. -- at the beginning. Thank you, sir.

14 MR. IVETIC: I will also not be seeking to tender this,

15 Your Honour, so we can remove that from e-court for the time being.

16 Q. And sir, I wish to move onto another topic. In paragraph 79 of

17 your statement, you do talk about a battle that took place just outside

18 of your hotel which you eye-witnessed. Am I correct, first, that the --

19 that your hotel is near the area where the TV building we have been

20 talking about is located?

21 A. Well, it's not beside it. It would be some kilometres away.

22 Q. And this combat that you saw, I -- I -- strike that. I shouldn't

23 say combat. You refer to it as a battle. This battle that you saw on

24 the 22nd of April, 1992, am I correct that the armed Bosnian Muslim

25 forces were the antagonists; that is to say, the attacking or offensive

Page 1615

1 party?

2 A. My assessment was that it was, yes.

3 Q. Thank you for that clarification. And one other clarification as

4 to this incident. In your statement, you mention that 13 persons were

5 killed. Do you recall if these were civilians or combatants?

6 A. Well, the information was given to me by a reporter from the BBC

7 who was on the ground. I saw some bodies. The ones that I saw were in

8 uniform -- sorry. They were in paramilitary uniform. They were in the

9 uniform that was worn by police. I understood them to be Serb police.

10 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, if we go to one other item from your

11 statement. In paragraph 87, you mention a letter that, in fact, is

12 Annex 9 to your statement but which we here in the courtroom now know as

13 P94, I believe. 65 ter number 10980 and I believe it entered into court

14 as P94.

15 This is a letter written by the mayor of Sarajevo, and while we

16 wait for that to come up on the screen I would ask you: Do you recall

17 this letter?

18 A. Yes, I do.

19 Q. And very briefly on this, and I will rest assured as I have done

20 all yesterday and today, I will give you a fair opportunity to get

21 everything that you've said about this letter in there. Can I first just

22 remind that you testified in the Milosevic case that in your opinion this

23 letter was probably overstated. Is that an accurate --

24 [Overlapping speakers].

25 A. Yes, it was my assessment that there were some exaggerations in

Page 1616

1 the letter.

2 Q. And to be fair to you, sir, I wish to also read the remainder of

3 what you said about this letter so that everything is out there, and this

4 is from the Milosevic -- the Slobodan Milosevic case, transcript page

5 25354, lines 14 to 21, and it's -- I believe you will be able to follow

6 along. It's brief.

7 "What I would say about that is that in lots of reports that I

8 got from all sides there was the general tendency to exaggerate and this,

9 in my view, was one of those. I do not in any way dispute the fact that

10 the situation was getting pretty desperate and that there was an urgent

11 need for corridors to be opened to get humanitarian aid into the city,

12 but from the experience I had in the former Yugoslavia over the 12

13 months, I would say that all the sides, from time to time, in my opinion,

14 seemed to exaggerate the situation."

15 And, sir, does that now complete your recollection on your stance

16 as to this letter as [Overlapping speakers].

17 A. Yes, it does.

18 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, if I can move onto another topic. I want

19 to ask you about something that struck me in regards to the efforts of

20 the negotiators in Lisbon. And here I'm talking about May 1992.

21 Am I correct that you personally there Lisbon several days during

22 this time-period, and in particular when the 27 May bread queue massacre

23 occurred?

24 A. I was, yes.

25 Q. And now, I believe you were only questioned about that in the

Page 1617

1 Slobodan Milosevic case. At least that's the only place where I found a

2 reference to this item. Otherwise, I would have called up reports. But

3 on the 26th of August --

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Bolton.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Microphone.

7 MS. BOLTON: Sorry, is it on now?

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's on now.

9 MS. BOLTON: I don't know that the Slobodan Milosevic transcript

10 was included on my friend's document list.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Ivetic.

12 MR. IVETIC: If I can refresh counsel's recollection, it's

13 included on their exhibit list and my list says I may use anything on the

14 Prosecution's exhibit list. It's listed under prior testimony,

15 Prosecutor versus Slobodan Milosevic, case number IT-02-54-T, 26 and 27

16 August 2003.

17 MS. BOLTON: [Microphone not activated]

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Bolton.

19 Yes, Mr. Ivetic. You may continue.

20 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Q. Sir, I will read to you again, as I have, the entirety of what

22 you are recorded as having said there, and then I'll ask the questions

23 thereafter and you will be free to clarify, add to, or correct anything.

24 Again, this is the 26th of August 2003 at transcript page 25299,

25 line 19, going to transcript page 25300, line 10. And I begin with

Page 1618

1 your -- with -- with -- with what was there.

2 "A short time after that Radovan Karadzic was very anxious to

3 come in and talk with us, and we had a discussion about meeting with him.

4 So when he came in, immediately -- he immediately inferred that the

5 Bosnian Serbs were not responsible for that mortar. I recall

6 Ambassador Cutileiro saying to him, asking him how was he -- how did he

7 know that this attack could not be attributed to the Bosnian Serbs

8 because it was impossible to have contact with Sarajevo from Lisbon.

9 However, what was attempted by the conference, as a result of this, was

10 that Dr. Karadzic was informed that whether the Serbs were to blame or

11 not, they, the Serbs, were actually responsible for it or not, they

12 probably were going to be blamed, and, therefore, it would be the

13 interest of them to make a gesture to our conference. We had discussed

14 this previously to Dr. Karadzic coming in, and I suggested - I think it

15 was I; I may not be sure on that - but one of us suggested that maybe we

16 exploit this to be able to get an agreement on the airport. So after

17 some considerable time, Dr. Karadzic agreed that in certain circumstances

18 he would be willing to hand over control of Sarajevo airport to the

19 United Nations."

20 Colonel, have I accurately recited --

21 A. Yes, you have.

22 Q. Thank you. And the incident in question is the bread queue

23 explosion at Vasa Miskina street that is commonly referred to as the

24 first of the Markale attacks?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1619

1 Q. And am I correct that a forensic investigation later determined

2 that the Bosnian Muslim forces were likely responsible for this incident?

3 A. I have no knowledge of that. That's my understanding, that the

4 United Nations crater analysis was different.

5 MR. IVETIC: One moment, Your Honour.

6 [Defence counsel confer]

7 MR. IVETIC: I apologise. I thought there was an issue with the

8 transcript.

9 Q. Well, if you don't allow it, then I will move on. But the

10 question I have for you is is this --

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, Madam Bolton is on her feet.

12 MR. IVETIC: Oh, I apologise.

13 MS. BOLTON: [Microphone not activated]

14 MR. IVETIC: Microphone.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Microphone. It's on.

16 MS. BOLTON: My notes actually do indicate that there may an

17 error on the transcript on that line as well, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Which line?

19 MS. BOLTON: The answer:

20 "I have no knowledge of that. That's my understanding, that the

21 United Nations crater analysis was different."

22 I think the witness had said something close to that, but no, my

23 information was that the UN crater analysis -- sorry, was different. And

24 there's something missing.

25 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I would happy to let the witness --

Page 1620

1 MS. BOLTON: Yes.

2 MR. IVETIC: -- re-answer that. I think that's the safest way.

3 THE WITNESS: I don't know personally what the definitive

4 decision on that was. I do know that the United Nations carried out a

5 crater analysis. But not being a member of the United Nations, I don't

6 know what that was. So I can't say for definite who fired that mortar.

7 MR. IVETIC:

8 Q. Fair enough, sir.

9 Would this example from Lisbon, would it -- from this, can we --

10 can we conclude that in a desire to fulfil the mission objectives,

11 international negotiators from the European Community sometimes had to

12 operate in this manner to try to assess blame without knowing the full

13 answer yet to try and get some concessions from various parties in the

14 conflict?

15 A. No, I would not agree with that.

16 Q. Okay. Fair enough.

17 And then I have one other area also related to the airport.

18 MR. IVETIC: If we can turn to 1D00170.

19 Q. And, Colonel, when this comes up, if I can direct your attention

20 to the last paragraph of this document, and I will wait for it to come

21 up.

22 And, again, sir, is this a document that you recognise as one

23 that you authored?

24 A. Well, I -- I haven't read it yet, but it bears my signature all

25 right.

Page 1621

1 Q. If you want, we can have it returned to the first page. Would

2 that be --

3 A. That might assist.

4 MR. IVETIC: Madam Registrar, if we could have the first page,

5 please.

6 Q. And, sir, when you've have had an opportunity to review, if you

7 could just confirm whether in fact this is a document that you recall

8 having been authored by you.

9 A. I can see where the document has my signature and authorisation,

10 but I actually don't -- I don't recall that -- that -- that actual

11 report.

12 Could I -- could I just quickly see page 2?

13 Q. Definitely, sir.

14 MR. IVETIC: Madam Registrar, could we show the witness the

15 second page.

16 Q. And, sir, I'll give you some time to review that.

17 A. It bears my signature and I would have to say that I did sign it.

18 But I'm -- I'm a little bit -- I'm a little bit curious as to why it

19 refers to coming from Belgrade on the first page. I'm -- I'm just not

20 sure on that.

21 Q. Nor am I, sir. In any event, do you -- do you recognise the

22 subject matter of the -- [Overlapping speakers].

23 A. Generally speaking, yes I do. Yes.

24 Q. That's fair enough. I'm only interested in one aspect of this

25 and I will put it to you and you're free to comment on it, if it is or is

Page 1622

1 not something you recall authoring.

2 If I can look to the last paragraph of this document, the last --

3 actually, I'm not seeing the part that I'm looking for. One moment,

4 please.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you looking for the last paragraph on the

6 second page or on the first page?

7 MR. IVETIC: I'm sorry, the last -- the last -- it's supposed to

8 be the last paragraph on the last page, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: On the last page? Well, there is the last

10 paragraph: Kind regards.

11 MR. IVETIC: And that's not what I have written here. One

12 moment, Your Honours.

13 Q. Let me see if the witness recalls this text before we spend more

14 time looking for it.

15 Sir, I have listed here that in this document there is a

16 paragraph that begins as follows:

17 "There is a strong body of opinion to suggest" --

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's first page.

19 MR. IVETIC: First page. I apologise then. The last

20 paragraph of the first page. That's it. Thank you, Judge Moloto.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're welcome [Microphone not activated].

22 MR. IVETIC:

23 Q. Sir, here we can read along now:

24 "There is a strong body of opinion to suggest that the Muslims

25 would be happy if the airport was not made operational as this would

Page 1623

1 decrease the chances of they (the Muslims) achieving the objective of

2 getting some sort of military intervention. There seems to be a greater

3 determination on the part of the Serbs to open the airport."

4 Now, do you recall this specific portion of this correspondence

5 that was -- that is before you?

6 A. I -- I understand what the reason behind that paragraph would

7 have been, yes, my understanding. Because, at that time, the -- the

8 Muslims or the SDA were very -- at the Presidency, specifically the

9 president was very anxious to try and get military intervention in -- and

10 an indication that the situation might be somehow returning to normal

11 would be opening up the airport. So politically speaking this would have

12 been something that they would have preferred not to have happened. That

13 would have been my judgement and that's -- I would accept that's why I

14 would have put it down there.

15 Q. Thank you, sir, and that's how I understood it and I'm glad for

16 the added explanation.

17 If I can just ask a follow-up on that. Would you agree with me

18 that this overarching desire to try to seek military intervention from

19 the outside, i.e., from the United States or NATO, that this was

20 exhibited by the SDA leadership not only in regards to the airport but

21 with regards to other negotiations that you were a party to or have

22 knowledge of during the time-period that you were in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

23 A. I can't actually say that it was. But I do know that politically

24 the SDA wanted to have military intervention as a means of bringing the

25 war to a conclusion. That was my estimate.

Page 1624

1 Q. Thank you, Your Honour -- thank you, Colonel. I apologise.

2 MR. IVETIC: And one moment. Let me just check one thing,

3 Your Honours. I think I'm done with this witness.

4 [Defence counsel confer]

5 MR. IVETIC:

6 Q. I'm sorry, Colonel, I do have one follow-up question. It's with

7 regard to the uniforms of the dead -- of the dead casualties that you saw

8 from the gun battle outside of your hotel in April of 1992. How -- could

9 you -- could you illuminate for us how it is that you were able to

10 determine the uniforms in question to identify them as being paramilitary

11 uniforms worn by the police?

12 A. Well, the -- when that, I suppose battle, or outbreak of fighting

13 occurred, when I looked out the window, the first thing I saw was a Serb

14 half-track coloured blue and white which was the colours, and the

15 uniforms were also blue, and they were the uniforms that were being worn

16 by the police at that stage. The fact that it was a Serb area, the fact

17 that Muslims had already had been moved out of the area was a clear

18 indication to me as to what was happening. And, therefore, it was my

19 assumption that the people who were defending the area were Serbs.

20 Q. Thank you, Colonel.

21 Colonel, I thank you for your time and your patience. I have no

22 further questions for you and I thank you for the answers that you have

23 given.

24 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I pass the witness.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Ivetic.

Page 1625

1 Madam Bolton.

2 MS. BOLTON: Thank you, Your Honours. I do have a brief

3 re-examination of the witness. May I just have a moment to organise my

4 papers.

5 May I begin, Your Honour?

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may, ma'am.

7 MS. BOLTON: Thank you.

8 Re-examination by Ms. Bolton:

9 Can I have on the screen, please, 65 ter 10943.

10 Q. This is a document you were asked about yesterday by my friend.

11 In particular, you were asked about a note that appears at the end of the

12 document, which is -- will be the next page, where you express some

13 concerns about the legality of the referendum and, in particular, you

14 indicated there was some concerns about the legality of the assembly

15 being reconvened after it was closed by the assembly president and also

16 the authority of the president of the assembly to conclude the session

17 without a majority in the first place.

18 MS. BOLTON: I'm wondering if we could please go back to the

19 first page of this document.

20 Q. Under item 10, there's an indication, it says -- before the list

21 there's an indication most of the speakers during the debate were from

22 the SDS party, all of whom opposed the holding of a referendum with

23 various arguments of which the following were the main points.

24 And then point 10 is:

25 "Recommend that SDA/HDZ go ahead without SDS as they (SDS)

Page 1626

1 already had a plebescite on November 9th/10th."

2 And my question is: What are they referring "go ahead" without

3 the SDS?

4 A. Go ahead with the referendum.

5 Q. Now you told us yesterday that it was the position of the Bosnian

6 Serbs that the requirement for the referendum required that it be done in

7 order to have a legitimate vote on the referendum that required that

8 there be a consensus amongst all three ethnic groups and not just a

9 simple parliamentary majority is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And you told us yesterday that after they provided that

12 information to you that you went and spoke to some judges at the supreme

13 court of Bosnia; is that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And was that in an informal manner or was this a formal court

16 case that you brought?

17 A. No, this was an initiative on my part.

18 Q. And to the best of your --

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: It was an initiative on your part, Mr. Doyle, but

20 was it a formal or an informal initiative?

21 THE WITNESS: It followed a request I made. I was trying to

22 clarify this whole issue, so I asked if I could meet some of the more

23 legally qualified people of the state, and I was told, yes, this will

24 happen, and I was told where to go at what time and I met them.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: The short answer is it was an informal --

Page 1627

1 THE WITNESS: Yes, it would have been. I beg your pardon,

2 Your Honour.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much, sir.

4 MS. BOLTON:

5 Q. And to the best of your knowledge, sir, did anyone from the SDS

6 or anyone associated with the Bosnian Serb people ever initiate an action

7 in the Bosnian supreme court to get a formal ruling from the court as to

8 the legality or illegality of that vote?

9 A. I think I can answer that best by explaining that when arrived

10 for that meeting, the deputy minister of justice, who was a Serb, asked

11 me what it was I wanted to address with these judges. And when I

12 mentioned I was trying to get an official legal interpretation of this

13 whole issue, and he said that's not open for discussion. So I waited

14 until he left, and then I had the discussion that I wanted. And what I

15 was told by one of the judges is, Mr. Doyle, you're looking for something

16 that is impossible to define, because we judges could from different

17 ethnic backgrounds, so what I will tell you, for example, as a member, as

18 a judge who is a Muslim will be different to what you will be told by a

19 judge who is a Serb.

20 So I left that meeting rather frustrated because I felt if I

21 couldn't get a definitive answer by the highest legal powers in the

22 state, if they couldn't themselves agree as to what was and what wasn't

23 constitutional or legal, then it was going to be very difficult to get a

24 definitive answer. So I recall that and that's why I put that in there.

25 Q. And your answer was just slightly different from my question

Page 1628

1 which was --

2 A. I'm sorry.

3 Q. Were you aware of whether there was ever any court proceeding

4 actually initiated by the SDS to get an actual ruling from the court, a

5 formal ruling?

6 A. Not -- not to my knowledge.

7 Q. If we could go to the second page of this document again, please.

8 And to the bottom of the page under: "Comments." There is an indication

9 under comment 1 that you remarked that the presence of the SDS at that

10 session was for cosmetic purposes. What you did you mean by that?

11 A. The impression that I got at the time was that the SDS members

12 were going to object regardless of what came up. Once it appears to me

13 that they had decided in advance that they will not vote anything towards

14 a referendum, and if they stick with that line, going on the basis of

15 consensus, then no decision could be made.

16 MS. BOLTON: That ends my questions on this document, Your

17 Honours, and I note that the witness has been asked extensively about it

18 in cross-examination and now by myself in re-examination, and I think it

19 should be tendered as an exhibit.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's admitted into evidence. May it please be

21 given an exhibit number.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Document 10943 becomes Exhibit P100,

23 Your Honours.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Registrar.

25 Yes, Madam Bolton.

Page 1629

1 MS. BOLTON: Thank you, Your Honours.

2 Q. At page 1560 of the transcript yesterday, Defence counsel

3 suggested to you that the only person you spoke to in the Bosnian

4 Presidency who expressed view -- the view that -- only -- that -- sorry.

5 If the referendum was successful that the Bosnian Serbs wouldn't be happy

6 but they'd come to accept it was President Izetbegovic. And I'm

7 wondering if you could refer to paragraph 54 of your statement where you

8 indicate that -- you were asked to approach the various party leaders and

9 that you spoke with President Izetbegovic, Vice-President Ganic, Foreign

10 Minister Silajdzic, and Radovan Karadzic.

11 And then you say:

12 "The members of the Bosnian Presidency all said the same thing.

13 They said they believed the Bosnian Serbs would not be happy with this

14 recognition but they would come around to accept it with time."

15 Does that refresh your memory as to whether it was just

16 President Izetbegovic who expressed that view?

17 A. Yes. Yes, I should explain here that the person who spoke to me

18 personally about it was President Izetbegovic, but at the time he did it

19 I was at a meeting in which -- which was also attended by

20 Haris Silajdzic, who's the foreign minister, and Ejup Ganic. So it was

21 actually the president who said the words of the opinion of the SDA. I

22 apologise if there was any confusion about that.

23 MS. BOLTON: May I have ID002148, please.

24 I understand it may come up under the number 1D00173.

25 And may I have page -- sorry.

Page 1630

1 Q. First you're looking at the first page, and you recognise this as

2 the witness statement Defence counsel referred to yesterday as being from

3 Mr. Halilovic. Sorry, do you remember being asked about this yesterday,

4 sir?

5 A. Yes, I do.

6 MS. BOLTON: And if we could go to page 26 in e-court, please.

7 When -- and if we could have the top of the page, please, the witness

8 statement portion.

9 Q. When you were being asked questions yesterday by Defence counsel,

10 he referred to this statement as the sworn statement of

11 General Sefer Halilovic, and I'd ask you to read the top portion of this

12 document under "Witness Statement," and then I will have a question for

13 you. Just read it to yourself.

14 A. Okay.

15 Q. Do you see any reference to the witness being administered an

16 oath before he provided this statement?

17 A. No, I don't.

18 Q. And the witness is advised, however, that he may be assisted by

19 an attorney, if he so desires?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And he is cautioned that:

22 "There's an investigation in progress into events in

23 Bosnia-Herzegovina during which period of time he held command

24 responsibility within the Bosnian army and that the investigation may

25 subsequently bring out facts which might involve my own responsibility."

Page 1631

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And were you -- or are you aware of whether General Halilovic was

3 in fact ever indicted or tried by the ICTY?

4 A. I have no knowledge, no.

5 Q. If we could go to page 28 in this document in e-court, please.

6 There's a reference at the very first paragraph.

7 If we could go to the top of the page, please. Thank you.

8 To a meeting of 2nd December 1991. And you were asked ...

9 MS. BOLTON: Court's indulgence.

10 And then if we could scroll to the bottom of this same page,

11 please.

12 Q. Another segment that was put you to was the very last

13 paragraph here which reads: "It was obvious that the war was

14 unavoidable." And it talks about their efforts to try to secure weapons

15 quickly at that time.

16 Do you have any personal knowledge of what efforts were being

17 made by the Bosnians to secure weapons at that time?

18 A. No, I don't.

19 Q. It was suggested to you in questions yesterday that the Muslims

20 were buying weapons on the black market and that this was being done with

21 money being obtained from the Middle East. Do you have any knowledge as

22 to whether or not that was true?

23 A. No, I have no knowledge of that.

24 Q. Or whether they expended millions of dollars on such equipment?

25 A. No.

Page 1632

1 Q. And whether or not President Izetbegovic personally authorised

2 that work?

3 A. No, I'm not aware of that.

4 Q. And do you have any idea as to when those -- sorry, I withdraw

5 that question.

6 You were asked --

7 MS. BOLTON: I'm done with this document, thank you.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before the document leaves I would like -- can we

9 scroll up, please.

10 I would like to take particular note of the second paragraph from

11 the top and ask for your comment if you have any, Mr. Doyle, particularly

12 the sentence that says: "It," the national Defence committee, which was

13 the basis for the formation of the Patriotic League, "It consisted of an

14 alliance of all the Bosnian patriotic forces regardless of cultural,

15 ethnic, or religious origins." Do you have any comment to make on that

16 in the light of questions put to you yesterday about the ethnicity of the

17 membership of the league?

18 THE WITNESS: Well, it seems to be -- if we're talking about it

19 being under the control of the SDA, or Muslims, the sentence saying: "It

20 consisted of an allegiance of all Bosnian patriotic forces regardless of

21 cultural, ethnic, or religious origins," that seems to be -- to be a

22 contradiction in terms.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

24 The document may get off.

25 MS. BOLTON: Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 1633

1 Q. You were asked some questions today about the fact that that the

2 barracks in Sarajevo -- or at least one barracks in Sarajevo was

3 surrounded on May 2nd, 1992. You recall that line of questioning?

4 A. Yes, I do.

5 Q. Do you have any information or knowledge as to what the purpose

6 was of surrounding the barracks?

7 A. I -- I don't have any detailed knowledge as to why it occurred,

8 no.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Bolton, how much longer are you going to be?

10 MS. BOLTON: I think five minutes, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.

12 MS. BOLTON:

13 Q. You were asked today about a report from the area of -- I want to

14 pronounce it Neum, N-e-u-m, about Croatian forces on Bosnian soil. Other

15 than in that area, did you have any other reports of Croatian forces on

16 Bosnian soil?

17 A. No, all of the forces were confined to western Herzegovina.

18 Q. And in terms of -- you were asked about public proclamations by

19 the European Community condemning the presence of Croatian troops on the

20 territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina and you said you weren't aware of any.

21 Were you aware of whether the United Nations Security Council ever issued

22 any statements or resolutions in regards to the matter?

23 A. I'm not aware, no.

24 Q. You told us -- in response to some questions today, my friend

25 suggested -- had some questions about your conversation with

Page 1634

1 General Ninkovic when he relayed the message that you wouldn't be allowed

2 by General Mladic to the area of the 9th Corps. If I could refer you to

3 paragraph 37 of your statement, there's an indication there that you had

4 a meeting with General Ninkovic, and you -- I take it, at the 10th Corps

5 in Bihac on the 17th of January, 1992.

6 Do you recall whether the information about General Mladic not

7 allowing access was conveyed at that meeting or another meeting?

8 A. It was my understanding it was at that meeting.

9 Q. You were asked some questions today about paramilitary forces in

10 the TV building in Sarajevo. Did you have occasion to actually be inside

11 the TV building in Sarajevo?

12 A. Yes, I was frequently there.

13 Q. And when you were in the building, did you ever see signs of any

14 military installations?

15 A. Never.

16 Q. Paramilitary forces?

17 A. No, not to my knowledge. I did not see any armed forces in the

18 television building.

19 Q. Any weapons?

20 A. No.

21 Q. And where is the TV building relative to the PTT building?

22 A. It's -- it's pretty close. I can't remember exactly, but

23 certainly within half a kilometre. Could be even closer. I can't now

24 remember. But it was during the period that I used to visit the

25 United Nations who were based in the PTT building, so it wasn't very

Page 1635

1 hard -- it wasn't that far from the television station.

2 Q. When you were having the talks about the JNA withdrawal from the

3 barracks in May 1992, where were they held?

4 A. They were held in the PTT building.

5 Q. Okay. And did you ever hear any outgoing fire from -- or see any

6 outgoing fire from the TV building --

7 A. No.

8 Q. -- during those talks?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Those are all my questions. I thank you very much, sir.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Bolton.

12 Mr. Doyle, thank you so much for coming to the Tribunal to

13 testify. We've now come to the conclusion of your testimony. You may

14 now stand down. You are released. And may you travel well back home.

15 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honours.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.

17 [The witness withdrew]

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

19 Yes, Mr. Groome.

20 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I realise we are approaching the time

21 for the break. I do have important information with respect to the next

22 witness, that's witness's ability to proceed this afternoon. If we have

23 a few moments, I can update the Chamber.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Please do.

25 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, just prior to the start of this