1 Wednesday, 5 September 2012
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
8 This is the case IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 I've heard of no preliminaries. The Chamber was informed that
11 there's a slight change in the sequence of witnesses.
12 MR. GROOME: That's correct, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Next witness to be RM003.
14 Then could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
15 MR. IVETIC: Perhaps if we could make use of time while we're
16 waiting for the witness. I, at least, was not informed of a change in
17 sequence of the witnesses, so perhaps if -- if the other side can advise
18 us what that change is so we can make sure that the appropriate personnel
19 are here for those witnesses as Mr. Lukic is not in the courtroom at
21 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, Mr. Lukic was sent an e-mail last
22 evening, which I believe the Chamber was also sent, so it's a reversal of
23 the next two witnesses. There are two witnesses remaining after this
24 witness for the week. If I can just have a moment, I'll just refresh my
25 memory as to the --
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]
2 MR. GROOME: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour. Those are the two
3 witnesses that we will be reversing.
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Hurko.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hurko, I'd like to remind you that you're still
8 bound by the solemn declaration you've given yesterday at the beginning
9 of your testimony. That is, that you'll speak the truth, the whole
10 truth, and nothing but the truth.
11 Mr. Ivetic will now continue his cross-examination on behalf of
12 the Mladic Defence.
13 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
14 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
15 WITNESS: SEFIK HURKO [Resumed]
16 [Witness answered through interpreter]
17 Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic: [Continued]
18 Q. Good day, sir.
19 A. Good day.
20 Q. Since we will be dealing with your signed witness statement, sir,
21 I wanted to see if you have a copy of it in front of you. If not, I do
22 have a clean copy in the B/C/S language that I can provide for you.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Please provide it to the witness.
24 Any need it to be shown to the Prosecution or ...
25 MR. GROOME: We accept Mr. Ivetic's representation that it's a
1 clean copy, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
4 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 Q. Sir, if we could start off at paragraph 1 of your statement. You
6 mention that on the 2nd of April, 1992, when you took the bus home to
7 Rogatica from Sarajevo that Serb soldiers stopped you at Stjenice. They
8 searched and checked the identities of people.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Okay.
11 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Excuse me. If it would be possible to also put
12 it up in -- up on the screen in e-court so that everybody else can
14 MR. IVETIC: Absolutely. That's P164.
15 Q. And, sir, am I correct that these Serb soldiers searched and
16 checked the identities of people but otherwise that you had no problems
17 with them?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And am I also correct that these soldiers checked the
20 identities -- I apologise. I'm told that there was no translation for
21 Mr. Mladic, so I'm going to have to repeat that question, sir, and please
22 bear with me.
23 Am I correct that these Serb soldiers searched and checked the
24 identities of people but otherwise that you had no problems with them?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Am I correct that these soldiers checked the identification
2 papers of all the people on the bus?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And do you know, were the people on the bus, did they include
5 persons of all ethnicities or nationalities?
6 A. I don't know. I think it was different, but -- I don't know.
7 Everybody showed their own documents.
8 Q. And then the soldiers just let you go; is that correct?
9 A. Yes, they did let us go.
10 Q. And for a point of clarification, were these JNA soldiers?
11 A. Camouflage military uniforms.
12 Q. Thank you, sir. Now I'd like to go back to a document that you
13 mention in your statement, P166. That is an item that you discuss in
14 paragraph 4 of your witness statement. And it has been introduced into
16 In your statement, you state that you knew of no enemy
17 strongholds in this area, that is to say May 22nd, 1992. Isn't it true,
18 sir --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Could we also have P166 on the screens so we're able
20 to follow.
21 MR. IVETIC: I apologise. It's a one-page document in both the
22 English and the B/C/S, so everything is going to be on the first page.
23 Q. Sir, this document is dated the 23rd of May, 1992. Would you
24 agree with me that at that time in the area of Rogatica municipality and,
25 in fact, in some of these settlements that are listed in this document,
1 these villages had armed guards or watches in place --
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Could you wait for me to finish the question, sir.
4 Would you agree with me that these villages had armed guards or
5 watches in place similar to the one that you were part of?
6 A. I don't know about these guards. When I came to the village of
7 Madjar, we'd gathered around the houses. That's where we stood guard
8 duty. That's what we called it at any rate. I had a pistol. Somebody
9 had a hunting gun. Nothing. Those were these village guards. And now
10 you're talking as if these were some special guards. It was nothing
12 Q. Thank you. Thank you for the answer, sir.
13 Now if we look at this document briefly, the middle of the page
14 in both languages --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, there may be some confusion. It's not
16 entirely clear whether the answer to your last question relates to the
17 other villages or to the witness's own village.
18 Witness, could you tell us were you told that -- that you stood
19 guard duty in your own village, do you know whether the same was done in
20 the other villages of the municipality? Do you know or do you not know?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, in these nearby villages,
23 JUDGE ORIE: You mean you know that they stood guard in a similar
24 way in those nearby villages. Is that ...
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
2 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours, and thank you for your
4 Q. Sir, if I can direct you to this -- to the middle of this
5 document in both languages, there's talk about the body of a Serb soldier
6 that had been in possession of the enemy forces being recovered. Do you
7 see that, sir?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And I would also focus your attention to the end of that
10 paragraph where it says:
11 "In the rear, enemy forces killed two old men."
12 Do you see that, sir?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Would you agree with me, sir, that this text would seem to
15 suggest that someone was armed and was fighting against the Serb forces
16 in Rogatica at the time?
17 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Your Honours, I'm sorry --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. May I explain this.
20 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please.
21 Ms. Hochhauser.
22 MS. HOCHHAUSER: I'm going to object to that question. I think
23 the document speaks for itself in terms of what it suggests and the
24 witness isn't being asked for his own knowledge on the matter.
25 MR. IVETIC: If I may respond, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: You may respond, Mr. Ivetic.
2 MR. IVETIC: This document was presented by the Office of the
3 Prosecution through this witness. This document was admitted into
4 evidence by the Office of the Prosecution with respect to this witness.
5 Counsel asked this witness about the comment that there were about --
6 there being no enemy forces in the village and that these villages were
7 attacked. Therefore, it is quite relevant to address this witness, the
8 credibility of his testimony on that record, and again this is a matter
9 that was opened up in direct examination by counsel.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, I think Ms. Hochhauser did not object on
11 the basis of relevance. She was objecting on the basis of that we
12 shouldn't ask a witness to interpret a document, what it suggests, does
13 not, because that is to be derived from the text itself.
14 At the same time, I noticed that apparently the witness was
15 starting an answer in which he explains what his observations were. So
16 therefore, if you would have phrased your question in a different way.
17 And that's, of course, what the Prosecution did. They elicited from the
18 witness factual comment on what is described here. If he says there were
19 no enemy strongholds, that is his own observation and is not interpreting
20 the text.
21 Therefore, please rephrase your question in such a way that the
22 issue is dealt with but not by asking the witness to tell what the text
23 suggests, because that is what the Chamber can identify itself as well.
24 Please proceed.
25 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
1 Q. Sir, having viewed this text, would you care to -- and having
2 refreshed your recollection with this text, would you care to revise your
3 prior answer that there were no enemy strongholds in this area?
4 A. There were no enemy strongholds in that area. But may I explain
5 this document that you've come up?
6 Q. Unfortunately, sir, the Judges and the Prosecution do not want
7 you to explain the document. I will ask the questions.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Don't explain the document, but tell us what you
9 knew about matters described in this document.
10 Please do.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The village of Zlatni Do, where
12 this soldier got killed, as they were saying -- I don't know that he got
13 killed. But anyway, if he got killed, this is a place on the outskirts
14 of Rogatica. All the refugees fleeing from Rogatica before the war and
15 during the war had to go through this Zlatni Do. That is where they came
16 across land-mines. Some got killed, some got injured, lost their legs,
17 Muslims, women, children. Now, whether this soldier was supposed to be
18 there, whether he was on patrol duty, I don't know. But I don't know why
19 he would be there in the first place and what he was doing there. I
20 don't know. Possibly somebody killed him too, I don't know.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, so you have no knowledge of the event, but you
22 told us that mines were there --
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.
24 JUDGE ORIE: -- which caused several people to be injured
25 including children --
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: -- and women.
3 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
4 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Let's avoid a battle about what seems to be
6 semantic, what is a military stronghold and what is the presence of armed
7 persons. That, of course, not exactly the same, and therefore to invite
8 the witness to revise his answer on the basis of what seems to be at
9 least some -- some victims and some shooting and to have armed military
10 strongholds. That's, of course, to some extent a semantic issue.
11 MR. IVETIC: It is, Your Honour. And I hope that within a few
12 moments we'll have a much clearer picture as I get into matters that the
13 Office of the Prosecutor excluded from the statement.
14 JUDGE ORIE: We're looking forward to it.
15 MR. IVETIC:
16 Q. Sir, is it your testimony that you have no knowledge of any
17 existing armed Bosnian Muslim forces operating in Rogatica municipality
18 in the Muslim villages in May of 1992?
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry -- I'm sorry, Mr. Ivetic. That's not
20 what the witness said. The witness said there are no enemy strongholds
21 in this area.
22 MR. IVETIC: And that's why I'm asking this question,
23 Your Honour.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: But you're asking him about -- that's not your
25 question. Your question is does -- is it your testimony that you have no
1 knowledge of any existing armed Bosnian Muslim forces. That's something
2 different from strong enemy holds.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, I think that if you have phrased the
4 question like: Do you have any knowledge of, and leaving out whether
5 that's the testimony of the witness, then we also avoid any discussion or
6 whether it is the testimony to be given by the witness or the testimony
7 already given by the witness --
8 MR. IVETIC: Fair enough.
9 JUDGE ORIE: -- would avoid that problem.
10 Please proceed.
11 MR. IVETIC: Fair enough, Your Honour. Thank you.
12 Q. Sir, do you have any knowledge of existing armed Bosnian Muslim
13 forces operating in Rogatica municipality in the Muslim villages in
14 May of 1992?
15 A. In May 1992, I've already said there were armed Muslims without
16 uniforms. The police that fled from Rogatica had automatic weapons. I
17 also saw hunting weapons, I saw some M48 rifles in the hands of
18 civilians. And as for strongholds, I saw trenches. I did not see that.
19 Q. Fair enough, sir.
20 JUDGE ORIE: I'm a bit confused by the last two lines:
21 "And as for strongholds," you say, "I saw trenches."
22 And then you said:
23 "I did not see that."
24 Is that -- did you see the trenches or did you not see them?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not see trenches.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
3 MR. IVETIC:
4 Q. Sir, I don't think you understood the Judge's question. Isn't it
5 true that you dug trenches in the villages above Radici in May of 1992?
6 A. Yes. When I went from the village of Madjar and when I came to
7 the village of Radic. I was there around the 20th of July. That's when
8 it was. I got this written on an ordinary piece of paper with a pencil
9 to report to Novakovici. When I arrived there I saw about 400
10 milled-aged men. There was a commander there. They called him
11 Commander Husein Hadzibulic and Ljubomir Muhamed was his deputy. They
12 said that those who had weapons should go to one side and those who did
13 not have weapons should go to the other side. I went to this other side
14 because I did not have a weapon so half of the people there were armed.
15 When I say "armed," I mean people who had hunting rifles;
16 automatic rifles, that's what the police had who had fled. This
17 Hadzibulic talked to them and said that Chetniks were attacking us, that
18 we left our homes. We have no homes. We have 10 kilometres more to the
19 Drina and we have to jump into the Drina. As for the rest, those who do
20 not have weapons, they would be in the work platoon. I left -- I went
21 away from there. I went to my children and nobody said anything. We
22 were there in the woods, about ten or 12 of us, and we went to dig some
23 trench, just like that. Just so as not to be totally idle. It was just
24 like that.
25 And also one day we made a road. We got together with shovels,
1 whatever, and that's what we did. Nobody called me up and said you're in
2 a work platoon and now you have to report every day so on and so forth.
3 So within 20 odd-days I already fell prisoner. Later on, I heard that it
4 was called work obligation.
5 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, this that you've just told us -- first of
6 all, for the record, am I correct that at this time when you went to the
7 village of Radici, you joined the so-called Republic of
8 Bosnia-Herzegovina Territorial Defence force under Mr. Husein Hadzibulic?
9 A. Well, that's it. Do you understand that? That's when I was
10 called to come there. I mean, you know, I came there for that lineup and
11 I didn't go anywhere else except for those two days when I did that work.
12 Q. Fair enough and was Mr. Hadzibulic's unit operating on the
13 territory of the Muslim villages in Rogatica community in the period of
14 May 1992 through August 1992 when you were captured?
15 A. Oh, no. That's the first time I saw Husein Hadzibulic. I mean,
16 I don't know what they were doing there. I went back into the forest
17 where my children were. Do you understand that?
18 Q. I do, sir, and I will get to all of that, trust me. This
19 portion, all this portion is not in your statement. Did -- did you omit
20 this from your statement?
21 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Objection.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Based on?
23 MS. HOCHHAUSER: I don't understand what he means by did he omit
24 this from the written statement. The written statement was prepared as
25 an amalgamation of his prior statements which contain the information and
1 have been disclosed to counsel and --
2 JUDGE ORIE: You're more --
3 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Sorry.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hochhauser, now are you answering the question
5 more or less and that's not what you're supposed to do.
6 MS. HOCHHAUSER: I'm sorry.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, could you rephrase your question in such
8 a way that we know how this statement was taken, who took initiative to
9 do what.
10 MR. IVETIC:
11 Q. Sir, we are now talking about P164. That is the statement of
12 which you have a hard copy in front of you, just so that there's no
14 In the process of preparing that statement, did you tell the
15 personnel from the Office of the Prosecutor this -- this information
16 about Mr. Husein Hadzibulic, about the 400 members of this Territorial
17 Defence of the Republic of BiH armed with the armaments that you
18 mentioned. Did you provide that information to the Office of the
20 A. I read this statement, and -- I mean ...
21 Q. Yesterday we went through a rather significant amount of
22 corrections that you made to this statement --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, this is not about corrections. It is
24 about selection of topics in a statement, and that's a different matter
25 from a correction.
1 May I inquire with the parties first. Mr. Ivetic, your knowledge
2 of what apparently is not in the statement, is that based on any previous
3 statement or any previous testimony of the witness which was disclosed to
4 the Defence?
5 MR. IVETIC: Absolutely, Your Honour, yes.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. Then therefore there's no way of not
7 disclosing matters, but, rather, a matter of selecting what the
8 Prosecution considers to be the most relevant; whereas, the Defence is
9 aware of other periods, other places, about which the witness testified.
10 If you consider that to be relevant, then you may elicit evidence
11 on that rather than to start exploring on who left it out on purpose
12 because that's clearly the suggestion you are making. Please elicit from
13 the witness whatever evidence you consider to be relevant. And if it
14 would not have been in one of the previous statements, then that might
15 have been different. But apparently the Prosecution has been transparent
16 by providing you with previous statements, which includes those portions
17 which it now apparently considers to be less relevant as evidence in the
18 present case.
19 Please proceed.
20 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Q. Sir, can you tell me what day and what month it was that you
22 first went to Radici and were -- first joined the Territorial Defence of
23 the Republic of BiH?
24 A. At the beginning of June, the 8th of June, when the attack on
25 Madjari commenced. We couldn't go into our house, so I went to Radici
1 with my children. It was about the 8th of June that I left the village
2 of Madjar. And the lining up I mentioned took place on, roughly
3 speaking, the 20th of July. I spoke about that just a while ago.
4 Q. You have mentioned a lineup. I would like to show you a document
5 that's been marked 65 ter number 1D111.
6 MR. IVETIC: And this will be the first page in e-court for both
7 the B/C/S and the English.
8 Q. Now this is dated the 29th of April, 1992, sir, and it's a telex
9 sent from the Staff of the Territorial Defence of the Republic of
10 Bosnia-Herzegovina by Mr. Hasan Efendic. It describes calls for
11 co-ordinated action with the Ministry of Interior to blockade roads and
12 the prevention of movements by the JNA, as well as co-ordinating and
13 planning military action across the entire territory of
15 Sir, did the lineup where Commander Husein Hadzibulic lined you
16 and other members -- other individuals up, did it include instruction on
17 any of these matters contained in this order from Mr. Hasan Efendic?
18 A. No, I don't know anything about this document. I wasn't there.
19 I've already said that from the 20th of July, 1992, I was part of that
20 unit. I joined the unit. And for 20 days, I was free. As of that day
21 later, I was taken captive. I was arrested.
22 Q. Okay. Now, am I correct that in Rogatica the MUP or the police
23 forces split into two; that is, that there was a Serb element and a
24 Muslim element that co-existed at the same time in --
25 A. I don't know anything about that. I left Rogatica on the 6th of
1 April, and I don't know what took place in the town of Rogatica.
2 MR. IVETIC: I'd like to call up -- this document I do not intend
3 to tender, Your Honours, as the witness has said he had no knowledge of
4 it so we can move along. I'd like to call up 65 ter number 1D176.
5 Q. And, sir, while we wait for this document, I think you will see
6 that this is also dated the 29th of April, 1992, and it's from the MUP of
7 the Republic of BiH, and we can see from the original that
8 Mr. Alija Delimustafic signed it. And it talks about the same situation
9 as in the prior document but this time on the side of the so-called
10 Bosnian Muslim MUP.
11 I want to ask you: You mentioned police officers being present
12 at the lineup. Am I to understand you correctly that we are talking
13 about Bosnian Muslim MUP members that were present in the lineup of 400
14 persons by Commander Hadzibulic?
15 A. Yes, there were some policemen from the Rogatica MUP.
16 Q. And these policemen were armed with automatic infantry weapons;
17 isn't that correct?
18 A. Yes. I did see automatic infantry weapons. I only saw such
19 weapons on them.
20 Q. Thank you. Now I'd like to ask you about Ramiz Alajbegovic. Am
21 I correct that this person was the former deputy chief of the police
22 station in Rogatica and after the split became chief of the Bosnian
23 Muslim component of the police in Rogatica?
24 A. Before the war, I think that Ramiz was the commander of the
25 police, not the chief, or perhaps the deputy. But later he became the
1 commander of the police.
2 Q. And would you agree with me that this police, commanded by
3 Mr. Alajbegovic, was in existence and was operating armed in the Muslim
4 villages of Rogatica municipality during the time-period of May through
5 August 1992?
6 A. Yes, they were in those Muslim villages in the municipality of
7 Rogatica. But they weren't all in the area where I was present. It was
8 in the other area in the direction of Sokolac. So they weren't all in
9 the area where I was present. Nothing was known at the time and everyone
10 went where they could.
11 Q. I'd like to ask you about something that I believe you do know
12 about. Am I correct that your father assisted Mr. Alajbegovic to recruit
13 villages in the Rogatica municipality to join the so-called Territorial
14 Defence of the Republic of BiH and planned to engage in combat with the
16 A. No. No, this is how it was. My father on several occasions went
17 to Madjar from the village of Radici. He went there to fetch food and so
18 on. On one occasion when he was passing by he met Ramiz Alajbegovic, and
19 Ramiz Alajbegovic asked him whether he could meet up with the Lelek
20 family who lived by our village. He said, I'll see. If you can do so,
21 try and meet them. And when he was passing by, he saw one of the Lelek
22 family members. And there was an agreement that Ramiz Alajbegovic and my
23 father and several members of the Lelek family should meet. And then a
24 day or two later, as agreed, they had a meeting.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Could I urge both counsel and the witness to slow
1 down when they speak.
2 Please proceed.
3 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
4 Q. And am I correct that the Lelek village turned down the request
5 of Ramiz Alajbegovic to join the so-called Territorial Defence of the
6 Republic of BiH?
7 A. Yes. When they met Ramiz Alajbegovic asked them whether they
8 would be willing to join the TO to defend an integral Bosnia-Herzegovina.
9 They said that this was a war between the Muslims and the Serbs but
10 everyone was going over to their own side and they didn't accept that
12 Q. Thank you, sir. I want to clear up something. And, again, this
13 will be the last -- well, strike that. Let me see, I'll try to move on.
14 You've answered some of the questions I'd already thought of asking you
16 If I can ask you, sir: You testified in the Karadzic
17 proceedings; is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. I want to ask you about one aspect of that testimony which took
20 place on the 2nd of September, 2011. It's at transcript page 18223,
21 lines 14 to line 25. And, sir, in so far as there are no transcripts in
22 the -- in the language that you understand, I'm going to have to ask you
23 to please listen carefully to what I read to you from that, and then I'll
24 ask you about one particular aspect of that testimony. If I may then
25 begin, sir, if you're ready?
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, you are aware that when reading usually
2 the speed of speech goes up, so please keep that in mind.
3 MR. IVETIC: I will, Your Honour.
4 Q. All right. Sir, now I'm beginning the quotation:
5 "A. The 22nd of May, I was in the village of Madjar where my
6 father lived. On that day, around 1300 hours, fire was opened on all
7 Muslim villages in the municipality of Rogatica; that is to say,
8 literally all of them. And that is when that happened for the first
10 "Q. How do you know that fire was opened on all the Muslim
11 villages in the municipality of Rogatica?
12 "A. The village of Madjar is up on a hill, and you can see all
13 of Rogatica and the other villages like Kovalj, Vragolovi, Kopljevici,
14 Orahovo, Sljedovici, Tubrici. All of these villages could be seen, and
15 you could see the shells falling on all of these villages. You could see
16 all of that from this village of mine where I was, Madjar, and all these
17 shells were falling in Madjar," end quote, sir.
18 And the question I have for you is: In this statement in this
19 case, you very clearly state that it was small arms fire that occurred on
20 the 22nd of May, and that is at paragraph 3 of the statement. Would you
21 therefore have to correct the testimony that you gave in the Karadzic
22 case regarding shells falling on Madjar?
23 MS. HOCHHAUSER: I would just ask, if I may, that the witness's
24 statement at paragraph 3 be on the screen, made available to him, since
25 that's where the portion is that counsel is referring him to.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 MR. IVETIC: That's right.
3 JUDGE ORIE: I think he was provided with a hard copy.
4 MR. IVETIC: I believe he still has a hard copy.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Could you have a look at paragraph 3, Witness.
6 Especially the first few lines.
7 Could you comment on what Mr. Ivetic just read as your testimony
8 in the other case and what you stated in paragraph 3 as to the weaponry
9 used on the 22nd of May, 1992? Small arms fire, or shelling.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were from Serbian places,
11 where Serbs lived. And they fired from those places on Muslim villages.
12 All the surrounding Muslim villages that I have enumerated. And they
13 fired from small weapons and from -- they fired shells on all these
14 villages that I have enumerated.
15 The Muslims didn't open fire here. And it wasn't until the 10th
16 of August, 1992 -- or prior to that date I didn't see a single mortar or
17 artillery in possession of the Muslims. The largest weapons that I saw
18 were automatic rifles.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you there.
20 The one issue raised at this moment is that the fire that was
21 opened on your village, in your statement it reads that it was small-arms
22 fire - that should be fire from the opposite armed forces; whereas, in
23 your testimony in the Karadzic case, you said it was shelling.
24 Could you explain the difference between your testimony in
25 Karadzic and what we find in your statement at this moment?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were these small weapons and
2 then there were shells that were fired, and then there were these
3 infantry weapons, as I have said. But shells fell on the villages. I
4 don't know how I put it previously, but shells did fall on various
5 places, that's quite certain.
6 JUDGE ORIE: So your statement is, in that respect, incomplete?
7 Where it only refers to heavy small-arms fire.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps I didn't put it clearly. I
9 am saying now that I do remember that there was shelling.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
11 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
12 Q. Do you believe perhaps that you did mention it and it was a
13 translation error, the shelling, and that's why it's not in the statement
14 that the Office of the Prosecutor introduced into evidence?
15 A. Well, I don't know what happened, but things were the way I have
16 just described them.
17 Q. I'd like to show you a document that we've marked -- that is
18 marked 65 ter number 08359.
19 MR. IVETIC: This is a document on the Prosecution's list. And
20 for now, if we can have the top of the first page in both languages.
21 Q. First of all, sir, looking at the top of this document, could you
22 verify if, in fact, you are the citizen listed there, Sefik Hurko, son of
23 Fejzo and Izeta, born 22nd November, 1957, in Rogatica, who is giving
24 this statement?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And do you recall giving a statement in November of 1994 at the
2 premises of the security --
3 A. [No interpretation]
4 Q. Sorry, I would ask you to wait for my question to be asked in its
5 entirety and then to please answer, otherwise we'll just have more
6 confusion and it will take more time to get through this.
7 Do you recall giving a statement in November 1994 at the premises
8 of the Security Services Centre in Sarajevo?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And just so that we can be sure, at the time that you gave this
11 statement, would it be accurate to state that the Security Service Centre
12 in Sarajevo was subordinated under the government of
13 Mr. Alija Izetbegovic?
14 A. Well, believe me, I don't know who they were subordinated to. I
15 don't know anything about politics. I believe that that was the case,
16 but I don't know who was subordinated to whom.
17 Q. Thank you. Now, if we could turn to the middle of the first
18 paragraph in the English and it's also the middle of the first
19 paragraph in the B/C/S, and I will read the English, and, sir, hopefully
20 you can locate this on the B/C/S, although it is a rather poor copy.
21 The part I'm interested in starts:
22 "As soon as we arrived in the village, we organised night watches
23 together with the other inhabitants. We were poorly armed, and I had a
24 CZ57, 7.62-millimetre pistol. It was relatively calm until 22 May 1992,
25 when heavy small-arms fire was opened on our village from the surrounding
2 Sir, would you agree with me that there is a distinct difference
3 between heavy small-arms fire and shelling that you have described today?
4 A. Well, yes, I would agree that there is a distinction to be made.
5 But I didn't express myself very well. I didn't know much about the
6 infantry or about the artillery and so on and so forth at the time.
7 Q. Sir, this statement was made two years - and we're talking now
8 about the statement on the screen from 1994 - was made two years after
9 the incident in question. Would you agree with me that your memory of
10 events was better in 1994, when you gave this statement, as opposed to
11 2011 in the Karadzic case or today, when you testified about there being
13 A. Well, perhaps I was in a worse state then. I had come out of a
14 camp and for about 26 months I suffered a lot. If you read about this in
15 the statements, you will know. So I was in a camp for 26 months and I
16 went out, and I had to go to a psychiatric hospital for treatment there.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, the point, apparently, you want to make
18 is clear to the Chamber.
19 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour. If I can have just one
20 second to consult with my client, and then I will have more questions.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
22 [Defence counsel confer]
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Could we keep consultations within limits and
25 otherwise to be done during breaks.
1 Mr. Ivetic.
2 MR. IVETIC: I will endeavour, Your Honours.
3 Q. Sir, this statement from 1994 goes into great detail, describing
4 what you've already mentioned to us when your father was asked by
5 Ramiz Alajbegovic to get villages to join the TO.
6 The question I want to ask you is: Did you or your father ever
7 help Mr. Alajbegovic to recruit other villages, apart from the Leleci
8 village, to join the TO?
9 A. No, never.
10 Q. Fair enough. And to --
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I interrupt you for a moment.
12 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think to understand the answer, it is necessary
14 to look at your question as it is recorded.
15 I understood you to ask if you or -- and I quote:
16 "... you or your father ever helped Mr. Alajbegovic to recruit
17 other villages ... to join the TO?"
18 The word "other" is missing and therefore the answer could be
19 misunderstood. Please clarify that.
20 MR. IVETIC: I will. And I thank you, Your Honour, for the
21 detail to attention that I missed.
22 Q. Sir, there -- apparently I either misspoke, but to avoid
23 confusion I'd like to ask you again: Did you or your father ever help
24 Ramiz Alajbegovic to recruit over villages, other than Lelek, to join the
25 Territorial Defence of the Republic of BiH?
1 A. As I have said, we never did that. That was in 1992.
2 Q. Thank you. And now you mentioned earlier, I believe, the 500
3 persons who were a part of the TO unit of the Republic of BiH in Radici.
4 Am I correct that approximately half of this number were armed with
5 automatic rifles, M48s, shorter military rifles; that is to say, military
6 weapons rather than civilian hunting rifles?
7 A. There were various weapons, hunting rifles, the M48 military
8 rifles. I had such a rifle. That's why I'm familiar with it. There
9 were also automatic weapons that the police had. That was in Novakovici,
10 not in Radici. Because the lineup I was in was in Novakovici.
11 Q. Thank you. Since Mr. Alajbegovic was the one that asked your
12 father to ask the villagers of Lelek to join the TO, am I correct in
13 assuming that Mr. Alajbegovic also had either a role in this TO or his
14 own armed unit operating in the region? If you could clarify that.
15 A. Well, it is possible that the police that went out was under his
17 Q. Thank you.
18 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I think we're at the one-hour point.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we are. Could you give us an indication as to
20 how much time you would need after the break.
21 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I believe I used about approximately 10
22 minutes yesterday, one hour today, and I believe I should be able to
23 finish within half an hour or 40 minutes in the next session.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then you stay within the time-limits you
25 indicated before.
1 Could the witness already be escorted out of the courtroom. We'd
2 like to see you back after the break.
3 [The witness stands down]
4 JUDGE ORIE: I see Mr. Lukic has arrived in the courtroom. The
5 Prosecution indicated that it would swap the two next witnesses. I
6 think, as a matter of fact, that it would have been appropriate to
7 suggest and seek permission to do that after we've heard from the
9 Mr. Lukic, you are now here. The next witness the Prosecution
10 would wish to call is Mr. Atlija. Any problems with this swap?
11 MR. LUKIC: Since we are not going to finish his cross today, I
12 can start, and probably they will have some time with Mr. Atlija. So we
13 are ready to continue.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That is appreciated. Your flexibility.
15 And, Mr. Groome, you would agree with me that it would have been
16 better not to indicate that you would, rather you are seeking permission
17 to change the order at the very last moment.
18 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I wouldn't ordinarily do it, but a very
19 unusual circumstances arose which I think the Chamber will learn about
20 when the witness does testify. I think the Chamber will understand.
21 JUDGE ORIE: There may be good reasons why you want to swap.
22 Nevertheless, the proper procedure is that you seek leave to do it and
23 that's not the way in which it was announced.
24 MR. GROOME: I apologise, Your Honour, but again I would have
25 been unable to produce the witness because of this very unusual
2 JUDGE ORIE: That would then all could have been discussed at the
3 moment you would have asked permission to do so. If it would have caused
4 the Defence any problems, but apparently the flexibility of the Defence
5 allows to proceed, as you suggested.
6 MR. GROOME: And just so the record is complete, Mr. Lukic and
7 myself had three conversations last night about this witness and about
8 the problem, so none of this is a surprise to the Defence.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But the Chamber was unaware --
10 MR. LUKIC: I just would like to correct my colleague. This was
11 never mentioned to us, that there could be some kind of swap.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Let's keep it as it is at this very moment.
13 I wanted to emphasise that a swap at the last moment requires, first of
14 all - and that apparently has been done - a conversation with the
15 Defence, although the report on what the content of the conversation was
16 is not clear, and then to address the Chamber and give all the
17 information available at that time in order to receive permission to
19 We take a break, and we resume at five minutes to 11.00.
20 --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.
21 --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, you may proceed once the witness is in
23 the courtroom.
24 Could he be escorted into the courtroom.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE ORIE: The transcript not yet states that we resumed. So
2 we're still in recess, although apparently speaking.
3 Madam Transcriber has corrected it, and the Chamber appreciates
4 that she has done so.
5 [The witness takes the stand]
6 JUDGE ORIE: We'll continue, Mr. Hurko.
7 Mr. Ivetic.
8 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
9 Q. Thank you, sir. For now I'd like to ask you some questions about
10 this group whether it was one or two under Mr. Alajbegovic and
11 Mr. Hadzibulic.
12 First of all, sir, did you ever become aware, in 1992, of an
13 organised attack that was carried out upon a military installation at
14 Trovrh wherein --
15 A. No.
16 Q. Okay. Did you ever have occasion to become familiar with an
17 event on the 4th of June, 1992 when there was an organised attack by
18 armed Bosnian Muslims upon a military installation at Veliki Zep?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Am I correct that both of these locations - that is to say,
21 Trovrh and Veliki Zep - are part of Rogatica municipality?
22 A. I don't know about Trovrh. But Zepa is in Rogatica -- part of
23 Zepa is in Rogatica municipality, whereas another part belongs to
24 Han Pijesak. But as for Trovrh, I'm not sure whether it is in Rogatica
25 or Gorazde. I really don't know.
1 Q. In any event, those are all places near to the area --
2 MR. IVETIC: One moment.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
4 [Defence counsel confer]
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, please proceed.
7 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
8 Q. Do you have any knowledge, sir, of an incident that occurred the
9 3rd through the 5th of June, 1992, wherein there was an attack on Boran
10 village when Serb civilians were killed by armed Bosnian Muslim forces?
11 A. Sir, you keep putting questions to me about places where I had
12 never been. I was in the area between Rogatica, Gorazde, and Visegrad.
13 That's where I was during the war, in that part of the country.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now there are sometimes other ways of gaining
15 knowledge. If you have no knowledge, just say, No, I have no knowledge.
16 That sufficiently explains. Mr. Ivetic may not always be aware of what
17 you know, what you observed, or what you heard from other persons.
18 Please proceed.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.
20 MR. IVETIC:
21 Q. Let me ask you, sir, about the 14th of July, 1992, and the
22 killings of Serbs in Drobnjaci and Duljevac. Did you hear about these?
23 A. I know of Drobnjaci and Duljevac. I've heard about that.
24 Q. To clarify, since the transcript indicates that you heard about
25 "that," are you referring to knowing about the two villages of Drobnjaci
1 and Duljevac, or are you referring to knowing about the killing of Serbs
2 in those villages?
3 A. No, no. I know of the villages. I've heard of villages called
4 Drobnjaci and Duljevac, but I don't know what happened there.
5 Q. Would you agree with me, sir, that from May to August 1992 there
6 was fighting going on between armed Bosnian Muslims and armed Serb forces
7 throughout Rogatica municipality?
8 A. Well, in the area where I was, there was only shelling of the
9 villages at the time, and there was shooting from those villages
10 towards -- from some villages towards Visegrad. As for the other side, I
11 don't know about that. Whether there was any fighting or not, I didn't
12 hear of that.
13 Q. Okay. Allow me to move on, then, back to a point where you --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, just for my understanding and perhaps
15 for my colleagues as well. This is all about background, is it?
16 MR. IVETIC: Correct.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Only background.
18 MR. IVETIC: Only background.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps sometimes I would start with the
20 foreground and then to the background. I mean, the statement of the
21 witness is about detention, beatings during detention, persons being
22 killed when they were detained, a witness being forced to beat his
23 father. That is what is the core of his testimony.
24 Now, the background, and you might even seek to agree with that,
25 what we often see now is that witnesses are asked about whether they were
1 aware that a Serb was killed, and that may even amount to a crime. I
2 would not deny that. But it's all background, if I understand you well,
3 and that there's no, at least from what we've heard now, on the most
4 important elements of the testimony of this witness, there's no challenge
5 to, if I could call it, the foreground, the matters I just mentioned.
6 MR. IVETIC: Well, Your Honour, I think that also these matters
7 are important to challenge the credibility of the witness and to see if
8 there's any issue of partiality of the witness, and I believe that the
9 areas I'm going into now will show that, in fact, we cannot rely upon
10 this witness for everything.
11 JUDGE ORIE: There were a few questions about the reliability of
12 the witness. That's clear to the Chamber. But, again, background takes
13 now approximately 80 per cent of the time in cross-examination rather
14 than the core of what seems to be the testimony of the witness.
15 You may proceed.
16 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
17 Q. Sir, I'm going to ask about some -- the names of some Bosnian
18 Muslim persons from the Rogatica area, and I'm going to ask you if you
19 know them. Jamakovic, Lutvo?
20 A. I know him.
21 Q. Hasecic, Alem.
22 A. I don't.
23 Q. Perkusic, Saudin.
24 A. Unknown.
25 Q. Two individuals: Bahulovic, Hapa and Bahulovic, Nane.
1 A. I heard the names, but I don't know them.
2 Q. Sabanic Samir.
3 A. I don't know him.
4 Q. Zagorica Muaz.
5 A. I know him. Just by sight.
6 Q. With respect to those individuals that you indicated you either
7 knew or had heard of, do you recall if they were members of either the
8 Hadzibulic TO unit or Mr. Alajbegovic's MUP unit?
9 A. Lutvo Jamakovic was a member of the MUP of Mr. Alajbegovic's.
10 And the other one, probably Hadzibulic. Hadzibulic's men.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 MR. IVETIC: I would like to call up number 1D00212, which is a
13 document -- and it's page, I believe, 4 of the English and page 3 of the
14 B/C/S. And I apologise, this is a partial translation so it's not a --
15 it's a draft translation, it's not a full translation. I will only deal
16 with the parts that have been translated. And I apologise, it's page 3
17 in the B/C/S for this particular question.
18 The item at the end the page, sir, in the B/C/S talks about
19 various incidents, and it talks about these individuals whose names I
20 have just read to you lighting up or I guess -- I guess razing the park
21 hotel in Rogatica.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic.
23 MR. IVETIC: Yes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: You told us that it is a document. That doesn't
25 come as a surprise to the Chamber.
1 MR. IVETIC: I apologise.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Then you told us that there is only a partial
3 translation and not a full translation, and yet you will deal only with a
4 few pages. What is it? That's the relevant information the Chamber
6 MR. IVETIC: This is an intelligence report. It was disclosed by
7 the Prosecution. It was also used in the Karadzic proceedings. And I
8 apologise, this is how it was disclosed to us. I'm not going to be
9 seeking to introduce the document, I just want to ask the witness if he
10 can verify information relating to these individuals who he has just
11 named and whether he was knowledge of any of these incidents contained
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I take it individuals he knows.
14 MR. IVETIC: Correct. That's why I asked --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Or he has heard about.
16 MR. IVETIC: That's why I asked before I presented the document,
17 that he identified four individuals that he either knew or had heard
18 about and what units they were parts of.
19 MS. HOCHHAUSER: If I could ask if we could see the first page of
20 the document, just to see in e-court whether -- in the B/C/S, whether it
21 contains any kind of a stamp or seal. And if it could be scrolled down
22 to the bottom. Okay. Thank you.
23 MR. IVETIC:
24 Q. Sir, do you have any information about this incident wherein
25 these individuals that you named that were part of the both the same TO
1 unit as yourself and Mr. Alajbegovic's MUP unit and the attack that they
2 performed on the Park Hotel in Rogatica?
3 A. The Park Hotel, I don't know anything about. Of all of this, I
4 only know the Vodice village. There was a large nest there from which
5 they fired on the Muslims. The Jamakovic that you mentioned, Lutvo
6 Jamakovic, that's the person that I know. He gathered a group of men and
7 they attacked that village and liberated it, and the machine-gun nest was
8 no longer there. I don't know who was killed. This is all I know.
9 JUDGE ORIE: And do you know it by personal observation or did
10 you hear about that?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard about it. I was nearby and
12 I heard about it.
13 JUDGE ORIE: From whom did you hear about it?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I can't recall anymore. But
15 I heard it from several people, the civilians who were there. I can't
16 remember exactly who it was I heard it from.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.
18 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
19 MR. IVETIC: Thank you. I have finished with this document since
20 the witness has gone and given us the extent of his knowledge of Vodice.
21 Q. Sir, I would like to ask you: Are you familiar with an organised
22 attack, or ambush I guess it was, that occurred at Jabucko Sedlo in
23 Kopaci wherein an armoured Praga, artillery piece, was actually taken
24 over by armed Bosnian Muslim forces in Rogatica municipality?
25 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not understand the witness.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Could you --
2 THE WITNESS: [Overlapping speakers]
3 MR. IVETIC:
4 Q. I apologise, I misspoke. When I said Rogatica, I meant Gorazde.
5 But I believe, sir, that your answer did not come in -- did not enter the
6 transcript. Could I ask you to please repeat your answer?
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But would now you also please repeat your
9 MR. IVETIC: Absolutely.
10 Q. Sir, I would ask -- I would like to ask you if you are familiar
11 with an organised attack or ambush, I guess it was, that occurred at
12 Jabucko Sedlo wherein an armoured Praga, an artillery piece, and a tank
13 were taken over by Bosnian Muslim forces? And I said Rogatica
14 municipality but you corrected me that that is Gorazde municipality. Do
15 you know of this event, sir?
16 A. No, I don't.
17 MR. IVETIC: One moment, Your Honours.
18 [Defence counsel confer]
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
21 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
22 Q. Sir, I'd like to now turn to a topic that is related to some
23 information that you gave when you testified in Sarajevo to the State
24 Court of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the trial of Stojan Perkovic, 15th
25 October 2009. First of all, sir, do you recall giving testimony in that
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And maybe so that we can -- well, I apologise. The transcripts
4 are only in English so I don't think they will be of assistance to the
5 witness. But, sir, if you need to be refreshed about these items I'm
6 going to ask you about, I will put up the transcript and I will read it
7 to you. But I think it's a very simple issue.
8 Do you remember in that case that you identified that you gave
9 additional statements to the SIPA metro special police and also the
10 Association of Women Victims of War? In B/C/S that would be
11 "Zene Zrtava Rata."
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And can you tell us when it was that you have given these
14 statements and if you have copies in your possession?
15 A. I don't have those copies and I can't really remember. It was
16 five or six years ago that I made the statement to the Association of
17 Women Victims of War. And as for SIPA, that was perhaps -- the statement
18 that I made was perhaps half a year or a year before Perkovic was
20 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, for the record the Defence was not
21 provided those statements. We did ask the Office of the Prosecutor and
22 they did indicate that they do not have them in their possession.
23 MS. HOCHHAUSER: That's correct, Judge.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 Please proceed.
1 MR. IVETIC:
2 Q. Were you approached by these organisations or did they approach
3 you to make statements?
4 A. They approached me to get that statement from me.
5 Q. Now I want to focus with you upon the statement given to the
6 Women Victims of War Association. Am I correct that is headed by a
7 Ms. Bakira Hasecic?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Are you or are have you ever been a member of that organisation
10 headed by Ms. Bakira Hasecic?
11 A. Yes. I am a member.
12 Q. Sir, my information is that persons who have given statements to
13 that organisation and are members receive a monthly stipend of up to 350
14 euros a month for their statement. Did you receive or have you ever
15 received any stipend or money in exchange for giving your statement to
16 the Women Victims of War Association?
17 A. Yes. And it's not euros but marks. Yes, I did receive it.
18 Q. Thank you for the correction, sir.
19 Now I'd like --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask one --
21 Did you receive one stipend or did you receive it on a monthly
22 basis; and, if so, for how long?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We received them on a monthly basis
24 and it has been going on for three years now. I've been a member of that
25 organisation for three years, and this organisation includes people who
1 were sexually abused. They may be members of the organisation. Those
2 who are not victims of sexual abuse may not be members of this
3 organisation. So once it was established what had happened to me at the
4 camp, then I started receiving this stipend.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, that means altogether over three years
6 approximately 12.000, you say deutschemarks, but they do not exist
7 anymore --
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. But I still receive that.
9 That is the law. Everyone who was a victim of sexual abuse would receive
10 that, and I still receive it to this day.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is it, therefore, your testimony that all
12 victims get such a stipend on a monthly basis or only those who have
13 given statements to the organisation?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no. There are quite a few
15 people who have provided statements and they do not receive anything.
16 It's only for those people who were sexually abused, who were raped and
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
19 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour. Just --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome.
21 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, if I can just clarify. Perhaps the
22 Chamber will think it is me that's giving evidence, but the Bosnian
23 money, despite -- for historical reasons is still referred to as
24 deutschemarks even though Your Honour is correct.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 MR. IVETIC: Actually, counsel is not accurate.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Well, let's -- let's -- let's leave out this detail.
3 We have an idea of the approximate amount of money involved and that's
4 what the witness receives.
5 MR. IVETIC: I was going to ask the witness to answer if that
6 was ...
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE ORIE: If you think it needs clarification, Mr. Ivetic,
9 please go ahead.
10 MR. IVETIC:
11 Q. Sir, when you say marks, are we talking about the convertible
12 marks which have a fixed rate of exchange with the euro that are
13 circulated in the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina today, with the
14 abbreviation KM.
15 A. That are in circulation today in Bosnia-Herzegovina, yes, and
16 they have a fixed rate of exchange with the euro. And it's about -- it's
17 the equivalent of around anywhere between 175 and 200 euros. Yeah, well,
18 after what we've been through, you know, it's not bad.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Two marks to one euro, that's approximately.
20 Please proceed.
21 MR. IVETIC: I will.
22 Q. Sir, now I'd like to turn to your testimony about the direct
23 interactions that you claim you had with General Mladic in 1994.
24 First of all, sir, can you agree with me that you neither
25 mentioned that in the two statements you gave to the BiH authorities
1 1994, nor these two statements that you've identified to SIPA and this
2 association, nor the two statements that you gave to the Office of the
3 Prosecutor of this Tribunal. Is that correct?
4 A. Well, that was when I was exchanged. My first statement was
5 given in 1994. I was taken to the court by this military unit in Bosnia
6 and Herzegovina, and I think that's where I gave the statement.
7 Now, the later statement that I provided in November when I went
8 to the Security Services Centre, I began giving my statement but then a
9 shell struck that building and we had to flee to the basement. So then I
10 started giving it again, but then we had to flee to the basement three
11 times. Now you can imagine what was like for me after I had spent 26
12 months in the camp. We were only able to put together some six pages or
13 so at this time, and I just couldn't think of what it was that I could
14 tell them.
15 As for the other statement about Perkovic, to do with the
16 Perkovic thing, they wanted me to talk about the people who had been
17 arrested, and that's why I didn't provide the statement. The same is
18 true for the Karadzic case. I didn't provide any statements.
19 Q. And you testified in two proceedings in the State Court of
20 Bosnia-Herzegovina wherein you also never mentioned this encounter with
21 General Mladic; is that correct?
22 A. Well, no, not for those two cases, because it wasn't necessary.
23 Because it had to do with other crimes committed by those people.
24 Q. Let's focus on the encounter itself. Can you describe for us how
25 General Mladic was dressed?
1 A. He had a military camouflage uniform, as far as I can recall. I
2 think he didn't have any cap on his head. There was a lot -- there were
3 a lot of troops around him. They all wore camouflage uniforms. That's
4 what the Serbs wore. He had some insignia, but I didn't really know much
5 about them. He was a general or something.
6 Q. And just to be clear, when Mr. Mladic asked if those of you
7 working were loyal or captured, am I correct that Mr. Mladic was told
8 that you were, in fact, loyal citizens rather than captured prisoners?
9 And I'm referring to what Mr. Bojic told him.
10 A. Mr. Bojic, or, rather, Mladic asked Mr. Bojic who are these men?
11 And Bojic said, These are prisoners from the Rogatica camp. And then
12 Mladic asked, Are they loyal or were they captured? And Bojic said, They
13 are loyal. And then he said, Well, let them come out from the ditch
14 where we were hiding. When we got out --
15 Q. Let me focus on the aspect of your -- of this testimony. Isn't
16 that correct, sir, that there were other people there also performing
17 tasks from, for instance, Satorovici, this area where they had tents set
18 up that -- where these people were sleeping with -- were co-habitating
19 with the Serbian army?
20 A. Do you mean the village of Satorovici?
21 Q. Yes, among other things.
22 A. Satorovici village, also Tmorni Do. These were loyal villages
23 until 1993. In November 1993 they were all taken to Rogatica camp and
24 then we were assigned to provide food to those people. This was as of
25 April 1st, 1994, and onwards, and this is when we had this meeting with
1 Mladic. There were people from Satorovici from the camp. I can't recall
2 all the names. I know, for instance, Vatar [phoen] Semso,
3 Mujo Jasarevic, Trusmo Mufti and so on. They were there when Mladic was
5 Q. How far away were you from General Mladic during this encounter
6 with him?
7 A. When we got out it was more than 4 or 5 metres, when we stood
8 there as he was saying that to us.
9 Q. Did you or any of the other prisoner there correct Bojic or
10 advise General Mladic of the fact that you were prisoners or captured
11 combatants rather than loyal citizens?
12 A. We didn't say anything. It was only Bojic who spoke.
13 [Defence counsel confer]
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, there is a great risk of confusion.
15 Captured was earlier referred to as captured at the front line as
16 a combatant. Now, if you're not captured at the front line as a
17 combatant, apparently you're considered to be loyal, but loyal, in such a
18 context, does not mean - and I'll ask the witness what it may not mean.
19 When you had an encounter with Mr. Mladic, were you at that time
20 free to go wherever you wanted to go, or were you not free to move as you
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that moment, we didn't dare go
23 anywhere where we wanted to go ourselves. We just went to where they
24 took us.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Ivetic, where there seemed to be a kind of
1 a loyal and being captured at the front line, there may be a category of
2 persons being loyal, and, at the same time, captured but then in a
3 different way. So we should avoid any confusion about that, and there
4 may be not be the dichotomy which is suggested in the -- in the
5 conversation that we heard about.
6 MR. IVETIC: Well, my question was then did -- so Bojic
7 misrepresented the situation to General Mladic.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I think, as a matter of fact, it's the wording
9 used. We have heard from the witness whether he was free to go at that
10 moment, and certainly it was -- if we under -- if we take that as a
11 starting point, it certainly, the conversation, did not give the details
12 and gave a dichotomy which may not be one which existed in reality.
13 Please proceed.
14 MR. IVETIC:
15 Q. Now, at that time, sir, neither you nor any of the other
16 individuals there brought to the attention of General Mladic the
17 conditions under which you were being treated in detention. Is that
19 A. No. We were trembling, we were shaking. None of us dared speak,
20 none of us prisoners who were working there. He only talked to Vinko.
21 He was the warden of the prison in Rogatica, and he talked to hum.
22 Q. And, in fact, sir, do you know the -- the location where this
23 took place? Could you describe that for us? Isn't this, in fact, rather
24 far away from the detention facility where you were being detained?
25 A. I would say maybe 15, 20 kilometres away from the prison that we
1 were. But when we were brought in on the 1st of April, that's when the
2 operation against Gorazde took place, and we took food, ammunition,
3 everything else towards Trovrh. The hill of Trovrh.
4 When we had a break for about two or three days, a group did not
5 go out to take food there. Then the military truck came one morning and
6 said that 10 or 15 of us should go on this truck somewhere else, and we
7 went elsewhere. We went to this other place, not the place where we had
8 taken food before.
9 Q. You've already given us all this information during the direct
10 examination. My focus was on the place where you had the encounter with
11 Mr. Mladic. Am I correct that that is not located near the detention
13 JUDGE ORIE: Has the witness not answered that question, 15 to 20
15 MR. IVETIC: Oh, I apologise. I missed that part.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I also observe that you are about at the
17 time you indicated you would need.
18 Please proceed.
19 MR. IVETIC: Thank you. I have approximately six minutes or
20 seven minutes of questions remaining, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed.
22 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
23 Q. Sir, I'd like to move to another topic of your testimony.
24 At paragraphs 51 through 60 --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Could Mr. Mladic lower his voice. Most likely to be
1 achieved by taking off his earphones when he consults with members of the
2 Defence team.
3 MR. IVETIC:
4 Q. Sir, just one last question about that -- about the encounter
5 with Mr. Mladic before --
6 A. May I just interrupt you for a second. Very often Mr. Mladic is
7 showing me something with his finger.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic, if that is the case, and we may verify
9 that, would you refrain from making any gestures, either approving or
10 disapproving. I saw, for example, before the break that when you
11 apparently happy in the way in which Mr. Ivetic conducted his
12 cross-examination, it was thumbs up. You should refrain from that.
13 I said that yesterday to you. I repeat it today. And if it
14 continues, then please be aware that the Chamber may take measures which
15 might be similar to the ones we took last week.
16 Please be aware of that. This is a clear warning to you. We'll
17 review, during the break, or later today, whether you made such gestures.
18 And you may remain seated when I address you.
19 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
20 MR. IVETIC:
21 Q. As I was sayings, sir, one final question about the encounter
22 with Mr. Mladic before I move onto my last topic --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic can consult with Mr. Lukic during the
24 break. So it should stop now at this very moment.
25 Mr. Lukic. Mr. Lukic, consultation in the break which will be in
1 20 minutes from now.
2 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
3 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
4 Q. Sir, this encounter with Mr. Mladic: Am I correct it is near the
5 Jabucko Sedlo or Tritak [phoen] location?
6 A. I don't know what the name of this place is. It belongs to
8 Q. Thank you. Now I'd like to move to another topic of your
9 testimony at paragraphs 51 through 60 of your statement, which is P164.
10 While we wait for that to come up, sir, can I ask you: Before
11 the conflict, did you take much interest in politics?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Am I correct that during the conflict - that is to say, before
14 you were captured - you did not have occasion to follow the politics
15 going on in Rogatica during that time?
16 A. I did not.
17 Q. And during your detention in the various locations you have
18 testified to, during that time-period, I suspect you also did not have
19 occasion to follow politics in Rogatica. Am I correct?
20 A. In which period?
21 Q. From August 15th, 1992, until the time that you were exchanged,
22 you did not have occasion to follow politics in Rogatica during that
23 time, did you?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And, as far as the Crisis Staff in Rogatica is concerned, you
1 never were present for any of their meetings, were you?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Therefore, I'm confused, sir, how it is that you are able to give
4 quite detailed information about the composition of the Crisis Staff of
5 Rogatica at these paragraphs of your statement. Am I correct, sir, that
6 most of this information in paragraphs 51 through 60 of your statement
7 actually was given to you by others, including either security organs in
8 Sarajevo or Ms. Bakira Hasecic's organisation or others helping you to
9 prepare for your testimony before the Tribunal?
10 A. No, no one did that. I heard about that while I was in prison
11 from Serbs. These people that you are referring to and that you have in
12 mind, Rajko Kusic, everybody else. Tell me their names and I will tell
14 Q. Tell us how precisely how you know Jadranko Vukovic was called
15 Captain on the Crisis Staff?
16 A. He was a teacher in Rogatica before the war. And some dogs were
17 brought to Rogatica and he trained these dogs, and he was a captain at
18 the Crisis Staff. That's what they called him. He was supposed to train
19 these dogs.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, the question was how do you know that on
21 the Crisis Staff they used to call him captain? How do you know that is
22 what they called him in the Crisis Staff?
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These commanders in prison, they
25 mentioned that. And that's what they said, that they were on the Crisis
2 MR. IVETIC:
3 Q. How is it that you know Radomir Furtula commanded the attacks on
4 Rogatica, Ustiprace, and Gorazde as is stated in paragraph 56 of your
6 I'm told that there is a problem with the translation. Could you
7 tell us how it is that you know Radomir Furtula commanded the attacks on
8 Rogatica, Ustiprace, and Gorazde as is stated in paragraph 56 of your
10 A. Radomir Furtula was born in Rogatica and he was a military man
11 before the war. He held the rank of major. He came several times --
12 JUDGE ORIE: I stop you here. Please carefully listen to the
14 In your statement you say:
15 "I know he commanded the attacks on Rogatica, Ustiprace, and
17 How do you know this?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I knew him before the war. He was
19 born in 1957. He was a military man. He was a major. And he came to
20 Rogatica --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Again, where he was born, how you knew him, that's
22 not the question. Why and how do you know that he commanded these
23 attacks I just mentioned? Were you present during the attacks, did you
24 hear it from someone; and, if so, from whom? That's the question.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From Vinko Bojic we heard that he
1 was in command in these places, Rogatica, Gorazde. We heard about that
2 from Vinko who was the prison warden. That's what he said to us when we
3 came to prison, Vinko.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
5 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
6 MR. IVETIC:
7 Q. And looking at paragraph 57 of your statement, what is the basis
8 of your knowledge that Razdoljac, Djuko, was issuing orders to commanders
9 of the prisons?
10 A. Barracks were right by the prison, and when we were in prison he
11 came to the prison. He always asked Vinko for us to go out and to unload
12 ammunition and other things that came to Rogatica. As for all of this
13 information, we heard about all that from Vinko Bojic. He told us who
14 was who, and that's what I heard from him.
15 Q. And when you say that this individual, Djuko, Razdoljac was
16 issuing orders to commanders of the prison, would that include the
17 Rasadnik prison?
18 A. Rasadnik was the prison and he came there and he told Vinko to
19 give him these prisoners to unload things. He didn't ask. He just said,
20 You will give me such and such a number of people to unload ammunition.
21 And it was mostly ammunition that we unloaded there where he was, at the
23 Q. How do you reconcile that with your statement at paragraph 44
24 wherein you state that Rajko Kusic had 100 per cent control over Rasadnik
25 prison. Are these the same individuals or different individuals?
1 A. I have already described Rajko Kusic, I think, when he came to
2 the prison. And to be very accurate, there were four or five inmates who
3 worked with Rajko Kusic in the same company, that is Huso Krajina,
4 Vatar Semso, Mujo Jasarevic, Orso [phoen], all of them had worked with
5 Rajko Kusic and knew him very well.
6 Further on, when I was arrested, I was brought before Rajko Kusic
7 and that is how he introduced himself. He said that he was Rajko Kusic.
8 Also, when we were supposed to be exchanged, he came and he said that he
9 would no longer feed us, that he would send us to Alija so that Alija
10 could feed us, and that's already contained in my statement.
11 Q. Two last points, sir. In your proofing session relating to
12 Mr. Mladic, you are quoted as saying that you believe Mladic is a butcher
13 and your opinion is that "everything what happened in the camps was
14 Mladic's idea." Sir this accurately reflect your sentiments?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And -- and yet you never saw Mladic at any of the camps or
17 prisons that you were at, did you?
18 A. I did not see him in any one of the prisons.
19 Q. Are these your personal sentiments or something that someone else
20 told you to say at this Tribunal?
21 A. No, no, these are my personal feelings. When he said that we
22 should all be christened and that we would be transferred to Alija's
23 state, and there's nothing that I didn't mention in that statement.
24 MR. IVETIC: One moment.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Please, at low voice.
1 [Defence counsel confer]
2 MR. IVETIC:
3 Q. Sir, am I correct that apart from the encounter that you have
4 testified about, you never once encountered Mladic again, and, thus,
5 never saw him committing any acts -- harming any individual in your
7 A. No. That time I saw him where I was -- well, I never saw him
8 again. Except for that one time that I described.
9 Q. Okay. I want to put it to you - and this is my final question,
10 sir - or ask you: Does your personal sentiment towards Mr. Mladic mean
11 that you are willing to do whatever it takes to get him convicted?
12 A. I would do whatever I could to have him convicted as much as
14 MR. IVETIC: No further questions, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
16 May I put one additional question in relation to that.
17 Would you also not tell the truth in order to achieve that
18 Mr. Mladic would be convicted?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. Just what I said. I stand
20 by that. And that offended me terribly. When he said that we either had
21 to be christened or transferred to Alija's state. And there was no other
22 way out for me. I could only be destroyed. That's why I'm offended.
23 And I wouldn't say anything else. I never saw him again. That was the
24 only time that I saw him, and that's what I told you about and that's it.
25 JUDGE ORIE: So whatever you would be prepared to do, that would
1 not include giving false testimony; is that correctly understood?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] False testimony? No, no.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Moloto has a question for you.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: What does it mean to be christened or transferred
6 to Alija's state?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, christened means to have us
8 converted, to change our religion; that we'd no longer be Muslims, that
9 we'd be Serbs. And if we didn't want to do that, then they would
10 transfer us to that state. And I didn't say that in my statement. If he
11 had a state. That's what he said. So if had a state. So -- I mean, if
12 he doesn't have a state, and if I don't want to convert to Christianity,
13 then I'd be destroyed. And the suffering I experienced in camp. I
14 cannot describe that. You cannot believe that. Twenty-six months, it's
15 the command that ordered them to do all of that. We were stripped naked
16 in camp and --
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. You have told us about that.
18 I just wanted to know what it meant to be taken to Alija's state. Thank
19 you so much.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hochhauser, any need to re-examine the witness?
21 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Yes, Your Honours, I do have a few questions.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do you think you could finish that in the next
23 couple of minutes.
24 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Couple meaning about three or four --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Five, six minutes.
1 MS. HOCHHAUSER: I may need a little bit more time than that.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Approximately how much?
3 MS. HOCHHAUSER: I would say probably closer to ten.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, unless there is any urgent reason why we
6 shouldn't do that, I would like Ms. Hochhauser to re-examine the witness
7 in the next ten minutes.
8 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Hochhauser.
10 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Thank you.
11 Re-examination by Ms. Hochhauser:
12 Q. Sir, at page 39 of today's transcript at line 20, Mr. Ivetic
13 said -- asked -- said to you you testified in two proceedings in state
14 court of Bosnia and Herzegovina wherein you never mentioned this
15 encounter with Mr. Mladic. Do you recall that question? My -- my
16 question to you is: Did anyone in the state courts or during that
17 proceeding ever ask you about an interaction with Mr. Mladic?
18 A. No, no one asked me.
19 Q. Similarly, you first informed the Office of the Prosecutor about
20 this interaction after testifying in the Karadzic case. To the best of
21 your recollection, were you specifically asked by anyone about Mr. Mladic
22 in -- when doing any of the other -- the previous statements that you
23 gave to the OTP?
24 A. Here in The Hague?
25 Q. So -- yes, in preparation for the prior statements that you gave
1 to the OTP, both the amalgamated statement that is in evidence now and
2 the statement that you gave in 1999, were you ever asked a specific
3 question about Mr. Mladic? Were you ever asked whether you had any
4 interaction with him or had anything to say about him?
5 A. When I testified here in the Karadzic case, and when the hearing
6 was over, then I said to a Prosecutor that I had seen Karadzic -- no, not
7 him, Mladic. And I wanted to describe it, and he said that it wasn't
8 necessary. So that was last time here.
9 As for Mladic, I talked about him when I just got out of prison,
10 and they took me to some military corps. Now I don't know where that
11 was. And I gave an extensive statement there about everything, and I
12 mentioned Mladic there, I think.
13 Q. sir, you've just told us about the circumstance after testifying
14 in Karadzic when you first raised -- brought to the Prosecutor's
15 attention the incident with Mr. Mladic. My question to you is prior --
16 before that conversation, where -- where you were asked if you had seen
17 Karadzic and you said, No, I never saw Karadzic, but I did see Mladic,
18 before that, were you ever asked in preparation for any of the OTP
19 statements that you gave here to the ICTY, were you asked about
20 Mr. Mladic -- were you asked a question about Mr. Mladic?
21 A. No one asked me.
22 Q. Okay. Now, you've told us -- you were asked a series of
23 questions about the -- about your statement at paragraphs 51 through 60,
24 about how you knew about the -- about people that were on the Rogatica
25 Crisis Staff.
1 So drawing your attention to that series of questions, if I can
2 point you --
3 MS. HOCHHAUSER: If we could have, please, 164 -- Exhibit 164 up
4 on the screen.
5 Q. And if I could point you to the -- paragraph 55. I believe it
6 should be page 11 in the English.
7 Now, you told us when you were answering that series of questions
8 in regard to, and please forgive me if I mispronounce the name, but it's
9 Razdoljac - is it? - aka Djoko, you told us about him, that he had
10 appeared at Rasadnik and that was some of the basis for your knowledge.
11 Did you have the opportunity at other times to overhear Serb soldiers
12 talking about other members of the Crisis Staff and other people who were
13 involved in the camp?
14 A. Well, yes. All these persons you mentioned here, I heard about
15 that from several Serb soldiers. I can't remember now. And that's why I
16 said that they were in the top of that command, Razdoljac was there and
17 he came often to the prison, and he could actually ask for inmates to
18 come out even without Vinko. How many were needed to unload the
19 ammunition. I've said that.
20 Q. And in the 20-plus months that you were at Rasadnik, did you have
21 other opportunities to see any of these other people that are listed in
22 those paragraphs 52 through -- through 60, did you have other
23 opportunities to see them at Rasadnik and also to hear conversations
24 amongst them?
25 A. Yes, I did have the opportunity of seeing some of these people
1 have I have enumerated, but it was difficult for me to hear the
2 conversations that they held amongst themselves.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Just to clarify, does that mean that the persons you
4 commented upon being the members of the Crisis Staff, that they were
5 present in the place where you were detained, that is, in Rasadnik
6 prison? Did you see them there?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did.
8 JUDGE ORIE: All of them or some of them?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw all five of them, but they
10 weren't together on the same day. Sometimes there would be one of them
11 who was present. On other occasions it would be someone else and so on.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You say five, and I think seven names are
13 mentioned. So you did see five out of the seven?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, seven. I saw all of them
15 that I said, five. However ...
16 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Hochhauser.
17 MS. HOCHHAUSER:
18 Q. Sir, if I could just ask you to look at those -- those
19 paragraphs. So it's beginning -- beginning from 52 to 60. And just look
20 at the names, review the names, 52 through 60. And can you -- can you
21 tell us, again, whether -- after having reviewed the names, if there were
22 any of those people that you did not see at the camp?
23 A. I saw Rajko Kusic, Rajko Vukovic, I saw Mile Ujic. We were taken
24 to a flat of Mile Ujic's and we cleaned it. He turned up, gave us some
25 food. He was an officer and had some sort of insignia on him and they
1 called him Captain. I can see one, two, three names here. Rajko,
2 Jadranko, And Mile. Can I have a look at the others?
3 JUDGE ORIE: Next page for the witness, please. I think he has a
4 hard copy of his statement, doesn't he?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Further, Radomir Furtula. He would
6 appear in the prison. Razdoljac, Djoko, yes. Carkic, Zoran, they said
7 he was a security officer, captain for security. That's what the Serbs
8 called him. And Stojan Perkovic, I saw him too. He was arrested and
9 sentenced to 12 years in prison. The sentence was delivered in the court
10 in Sarajevo. I know about Rajko Kusic for sure, and Radomir Furtula did
11 appear in the prison. He conducted all the military operations around
12 Rogatica and Gorazde. This was mentioned with Vinko, in a conversation
13 with Vinko. I didn't hear this from the Muslims.
14 MS. HOCHHAUSER:
15 Q. Sir, moving onto a different topic. The -- I'd like to talk
16 about the stipend that was mentioned from the Women Victims of War
17 Organisation. Now, that stipend is from the -- actually from the
18 government of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and the government of Bosnia and
19 Herzegovina uses the Women Victims of War Organisation to distribute the
20 money; is that correct? Are you aware of that?
21 A. I don't know. I receive that money. As to where these funds
22 come from, I have no idea. It's a non-governmental organisation, and we
23 receive this sum every month.
24 Q. Okay. I'd like to draw your attention now to the line of
25 questions that you were asked about -- about your interaction with -- and
1 again pardon my mispronunciation, with Hadzibulic's unit. Now --
2 JUDGE ORIE: May I also remind you that your ten minutes are
3 approximately over, so please wind up.
4 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Approximately over. Okay.
5 Q. Sir, you said at page 16, line 14, you were asked about automatic
6 infantry weapons, and you responded: "I only saw such weapons on them."
7 Can you tell us who "them" is?
8 A. Well, the 250 men who were to one side, and on the other side
9 there were men without weapons. So they were Muslims. That's where I
10 was lined up, and I saw those weapons on them. I didn't know them by
11 name, but they were Muslims.
12 Q. So that was approximately 250 of the 400 people that you
13 described gathering there; is that correct?
14 A. There were between 400 and 500 people. And that was that one
15 half of them. I didn't count them. I didn't know whether there were 200
16 or 300 of them, but it was half of all those people whom I could not
18 Q. Just two more questions, sir. Can you tell us those -- when you
19 were there that day, the people that you saw there, did they appear
20 otherwise organised? Did they have uniforms or other provisions that you
22 A. No, they didn't have any kind of uniform. They were summoned
23 there on that day in order to organise themselves. There were no
24 uniforms. They were all in civilian clothing. And there were no
25 uniforms available of any kind in any case.
1 Q. And, sir, do you consider yourself to have been participating in
2 any kind of organised armed resistance at any point from April of 1992
3 until 14 August 1992 when you were detained?
4 A. No, not at all. I didn't participate in anything. We gathered,
5 one day we dug trenches, and there was this other day when we were doing
6 road work. We hadn't been issued any orders, we were bored, and so we
7 organised ourselves and spent two days working. And during that 20-day
8 period I was taken captive, and as for what subsequently happened, I
9 don't know.
10 Q. So it was a sum total of two days that you're -- you're talking
11 about, interacting with Hadzibulic?
12 A. Yes. I was in contact with Hadzibulic around the 20th of July
13 and only on that occasion.
14 Q. Okay.
15 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Your Honours, that concludes my re-direct.
16 Thank you for your patience.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Have the questions of the Prosecution triggered any
18 need for further questions?
19 MR. IVETIC: No, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Then --
21 MR. IVETIC: One moment, Your Honour. I do have to check with
22 the client. He is trying to get my attention. I apologise.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 [Defence counsel confer]
25 JUDGE ORIE: Could -- could Mr. Mladic speak at such a level of
1 speech that others cannot hear him.
2 MR. IVETIC: No -- no new questions raised by the re-direct,
3 Your Honours.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.
5 Mr. Hurko, this concludes your testimony in this Court. I would
6 like to thank you very much for coming and for answering all the
7 questions that were put to you either by the parties or by the Bench.
8 You're excused. I wish you a safe return home again. You may follow the
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.
11 [The witness withdrew]
12 JUDGE ORIE: We take a break.
13 For the next witness, no protective measures.
14 MR. GROOME: That's correct, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Then he can be called after we have resumed, and
16 that will be at 12.30.
17 --- Recess taken at 12.10 p.m.
18 --- On resuming at 12.32 p.m.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Is the Prosecution ready to call its next witness?
20 MR. TRALDI: Yes, Your Honour. There are a couple of brief
21 preliminary matters to address.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then before we -- yes. If you would please
23 address them. We'll wait for the witness to be brought in, and --
24 please, Mr. Traldi.
25 MR. TRALDI: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Your Honours, before the witness is called in, I want to
2 reiterate from our filing that Mr. Atlija's evidence does overlap in a
3 limited way with adjudicated facts. We have reviewed Mr. Atlija's 92 ter
4 material, and made certain redactions.
5 We have also redacted certain paragraphs of Mr. Atlija's Croatian
6 Information Centre statement, attached at Annex A, to his ICTY statement,
7 now 65 ter 28368, in reliance on his ICTY statement at the Chamber's
8 direction. I will suggest those paragraphs be unredacted if the Defence
9 challenges the credibility of the relevant paragraphs of the ICTY
11 Regarding exhibits, I will refrain from tendering 26421 which was
12 on our list, unless the relevant material in Mr. Atlija's 92 ter evidence
13 is challenged. Regarding the other exhibits to be used with this
14 witness, we have created and uploaded excerpts of two of the exhibits on
15 our list.
16 First, rather than showing the entire video bearing 65 ter 22594,
17 we have created a 20-second clip from the video which has been assigned
18 65 ter number 22594A. Second, we have uploaded a version of
19 65 ter 26499, which includes only the cover page and the list of names
20 about which the witness will directly testify. This has been assigned
21 65 ter 26499A.
22 Is there any additional information the Chamber wishes me to
23 provide at this time?
24 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just have a look. I see in the copy I have
25 before me the 92 ter statement, I see that I have a numbered
1 paragraph version, referring to adjudicated facts here and there. As far
2 as the statement given to the Croatian Information Centre is concerned,
3 and, of course, we were a bit surprised by it this morning, where are the
4 redactions found? Oh, let me have a look at the other version.
5 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour, if you would give me a minute to just
6 check the exhibit in e-court.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour, it was uploaded fairly recently so it
9 may have been printed out earlier. If you'd like, it might be useful for
10 the Court Officer to call that exhibit to the screen. And that's 28368.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Calling it to the screen now might not be of
12 great assistance. I think since we often work both from hard copies and
13 from the screen, if the Chamber would be provided by the redacted version
14 of that statement in hard copy, then it's easier for us to follow.
15 MR. TRALDI: I apologise, Your Honour, and we'll get on to that.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 Any other matter, Mr. Traldi?
18 MR. TRALDI: No, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Then can the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
20 And, meanwhile, I'll issue a decision on the -- oh, the witness is there
21 already. I'll do it at a later stage.
22 [The witness entered court]
23 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Atlija, I take it --
25 THE WITNESS: [Overlapping speakers]
1 JUDGE ORIE: Before you give evidence, the Rules require that you
2 make a solemn declaration. The text is now handed out to you. May I
3 invite you to make that solemn declaration.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
5 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
6 WITNESS: IVO ATLIJA
7 [Witness answered through interpreter]
8 Examination by Mr. Traldi:
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Atlija. Please be seated.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Atlija, you'll first be examined by Mr. Traldi.
12 Mr. Traldi is counsel for the Prosecution.
13 You may proceed, Mr. Traldi.
14 MR. TRALDI: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Q. Sir, can I ask you to please state your full name for the record.
16 A. My name is Ivo Atlija.
17 Q. And good morning, Mr. Atlija. Can you tell us where you were
19 A. I was born on the 19th of May, 1963, in the village of Brisevo,
20 Prijedor municipality.
21 Q. And what is your ethnicity, sir?
22 A. I am a Croat by ethnicity.
23 Q. Mr. Atlija, do you remember providing a statement to the ICTY on
24 18 -- sorry, the 18th through the 20th of October, 2000?
25 A. Yes, I do.
1 MR. TRALDI: And I'd ask the Court Officer to please display
2 65 ter 28367 on our screens.
3 Q. And, Mr. Atlija, now that the document is on the screen before
4 you, I'd ask you to view the first page; in particular, the signature in
5 the bottom right-hand corner of the English version, and indicate whether
6 you recognise that signature?
7 A. Yes, that's my signature.
8 MR. TRALDI: And can I ask that we go to page 22.
9 Q. And, again, I'll ask you whether you recognise the signature.
10 MR. TRALDI: Sorry, page 23, Your Honours.
11 Q. And, again, I'll ask you whether you recognise the signature on
12 that page.
13 A. Yes, that's my signature.
14 Q. And, Mr. Atlija, in your statement, discussing grave number 1,
15 including a group of about 20 Muslims in Stara Rijeka, the statement
16 reflects that you think the grave was exhumed but you are not sure. Have
17 you subsequently discovered what happened to the bodies of the people
18 buried in this grave?
19 A. Through the media, I subsequently discovered that no bodies were
20 found in that grave, but they were subsequently found in a grave called
21 Jakarina Kosa, as far as I can remember.
22 Q. And in this statement discussing grave number 9, your statement
23 reflects that the map attached at Annex B reflects the wrong location for
24 grave number 9. Did you review Annex B to your statement, the map of
25 grave-sites, in preparation for your testimony?
1 A. Yes, I did. And the grave is at the right location on the map
2 that I had a look at, and this means that the error has been corrected.
3 Q. And on page 17 of your statement where you discuss grave number
4 13, your statement reflects that you are not sure if Mirsad Svraka's, I
5 apologise for my mispronunciation, if that person's body has been
6 exhumed. Have you since learned if the body has been exhumed?
7 A. Later I discovered through the press that the body had been
9 Q. And now in annex A to your statement, 65 ter 28368, I just want
10 to clear up two inconsistencies between the English and B/C/S versions.
11 MR. TRALDI: First, if the Court Officer could pull up
12 paragraph 20 of 65 ter 28368 on the third page each of the English and
13 the B/C/S.
14 Q. Sir, is the right number 200 Muslims or 2.000 Muslims that were
15 killed in Redak?
16 A. The right number is about 200 Muslims. That's what I said, and
17 that's what it says in the Croatian version.
18 MR. TRALDI: And, second, if the Court Officer could pull up
19 paragraph 24 on the fourth page of both the B/C/S and the English.
20 Q. In the B/C/S of this paragraph, it says that, and again I'll
21 apologise for my pronunciation, Ivica Mlinar, Luka Mlinar, and Jerko
22 Ivandic, were killed by pickaxes, shovels, and fence posts. In the
23 English it say, Ivica Mlinar and Luka and Jerko Ivandic. Can you clarify
24 for us whether Luka's last name was Mlinar or Ivandic?
25 A. Luka's last name is Mlinar. Ivandic is a mistake. There was
1 only a Jerko Ivandic. So the last name was Mlinar. Ivica and Luka are
3 Q. And, sir, have you had a chance to review your ICTY statement and
4 its associated annexes in preparation for your testimony?
5 A. Yes, I have had such a chance.
6 Q. And subject to the corrections we have just discussed, sir, if
7 the Chamber takes your statement together with the annexes, will it have
8 a correct picture of your evidence?
9 A. Yes, there's nothing I would change.
10 Q. And if I were today to ask you questions about the material
11 addressed therein, would you provide the same information, in substance?
12 A. Yes, I would provide the same information for the simple reason
13 that this information is truth and there is, therefore, no need to change
15 MR. TRALDI: And, Your Honours, the Prosecution tenders
16 65 ter 28367, pursuant to Rule 92 ter, as a public exhibit.
17 JUDGE ORIE: No objections.
18 Madam Registrar.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Document 28367 becomes Exhibit P168,
20 Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: P168 is admitted into evidence.
22 Please proceed.
23 MR. TRALDI: And, Your Honours I would also, at this time tender
24 the annexes to the statement as associated exhibits.
25 JUDGE ORIE: I hear of no objections.
1 Madam Registrar.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Document 28368 becomes Exhibit P169,
3 Your Honours.
4 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Document 28369 becomes Exhibit P170,
6 Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted.
8 THE REGISTRAR: And document 28370 becomes Exhibit P171,
9 Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
11 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour, I believe there are two more annexes
12 with 65 ter numbers 18458 and 18459.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Document 18458 becomes Exhibit P172,
14 Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
16 THE REGISTRAR: And document 18459 becomes Exhibit P173,
17 Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Also admitted into evidence.
19 MR. TRALDI: And, Your Honours, we now have those hard copies of
20 the redacted version of what is now Exhibit P169.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I meanwhile was informed that the only
22 redaction is found on the second page. Is that true?
23 MR. TRALDI: There are substantial redactions on the second page,
24 Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Not on the other pages?
1 MR. TRALDI: As I recall, no, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If the usher could assist.
3 You may proceed.
4 MR. TRALDI: Now that the requirements of Rule 92 ter have been
5 satisfied, I will briefly summarise Mr. Atlija's written evidence for the
7 Ivo Atlija was born and raised in Prijedor municipality. In
8 April 1992, he left Prijedor town after being sent home from his job on
9 the orders of the SDS and returned to Brisevo, where his parents lived.
10 From Brisevo, Mr. Atlija saw Serb forces attack Muslim villages
11 in May of 1992. Hundreds of women and children came to Brisevo seeking
12 refuge. They told him that the Serb army was burning their houses,
13 killing men, and raping women. Mr. Atlija heard an ultimatum given to
14 the Muslim village of Hambarine on behalf of the Prijedor Crisis Staff to
15 surrender certain people or see the whole village burnt down. Then he
16 saw soldiers and tanks enter the village. During the attack on Kozarac,
17 he could see smoke rising and destroyed houses.
18 On 27 May 1992, Brisevo was shelled. The next day, the villagers
19 surrendered all their weapons. Check-points were set up around the
20 village and men were taken away to detention camps.
21 In the early morning of 24 July, Brisevo was attacked about
22 large-calibre weapons. There was non-stop shelling. Regular soldiers
23 and Chetniks burned down houses and looted them. All in all, 68 people
24 were killed.
25 Mr. Atlija was told that the 6th Krajina Brigade and the
1 5th Kozara Brigade were involved in the attack. The majority of the
2 soldiers left during the course of 25 July. Mr. Atlija and other young
3 men saw burned down houses and several buildings which had been damaged,
4 including the Catholic church, and they helped bury the dead, starting
5 with Mr. Atlija's own father.
6 Q. Mr. Atlija, now that I have summarised your written evidence, I'm
7 going to ask several questions to clarify or expand upon that evidence.
8 MR. TRALDI: And I'd ask that the Court Officer call up 65 ter
9 13331 at this time.
10 Q. Sir, do you recognise the area on this map?
11 A. Yes. You can see the town of Prijedor in the map, and you can
12 see the fish pound to the right in blue. And then there's a road towards
13 Banja Luka to -- to the right. And that would be south-east, or to the
14 east. And to the left, there is the read to Bosanski Novi. On the other
15 side, to the south, there is the road for Ljubija. And above, if you
16 follow this road from Prijedor to Ljubija, you pass through the village
17 of Hambarine that has already been mentioned, and then you go a little
18 further down in the direction of -- okay.
19 Q. Thank you, sir. And did you have the chance to review this map
20 in preparation for your testimony?
21 A. Yes, I have seen this map.
22 Q. And to the best of your knowledge, does it fairly and accurately
23 depict the Prijedor municipality?
24 A. Yes. I'm quite convinced that the map is a correct one.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, is that a matter there's any dispute
1 about it, or have you agreed with the -- is it challenged by the Defence?
2 MR. TRALDI: I'm sorry, which matter exactly, Your Honour?
3 JUDGE ORIE: Whether this map accurately reflects the
4 geographical situation. I mean --
5 MR. TRALDI: We have not spoken to the Defence in that regard,
6 Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But it seems that unless there's any reason to
8 believe that these kind of maps are inaccurate, that you could either
9 agree with the Defence or leave it to cross-examination if there is any
10 challenge to that, especially since you asked for additional time - which
11 was not granted, by the way, yet, and we said we would see how
12 examination-in-chief develops. And if you then start asking questions
13 about whether the map is accurate or not, that, of course, might not be
14 the best use of your time.
15 Please proceed.
16 MR. TRALDI: Yes, Your Honour. At this point I would request
17 that 65 ter 13331 be admitted into evidence as a public exhibit.
18 JUDGE ORIE: No objections.
19 Madam Registrar.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Document 13331 becomes Exhibit P174,
21 Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: And - let me just have a look - is this map also in
23 the binder you tendered, Mr. Traldi? I just need to have a look at it.
24 Because -- let's have a look.
25 MR. TRALDI: On a quick review, Your Honour, I don't believe it
2 JUDGE ORIE: Well, there's a similar map. But, Madam Registrar,
3 the number would be ...
4 THE REGISTRAR: It's already assigned P174.
5 JUDGE ORIE: I apologise for that. P174 is admitted into
7 MR. TRALDI:
8 Q. And, Mr. Atlija, after you left Prijedor you went to Brisevo.
9 What was the atmosphere there like when you arrived?
10 A. At that time there was calm in Brisevo and the situation was
11 relatively normal.
12 Q. And did that atmosphere change?
13 A. Yes, unfortunately, in time it did change. The shooting was
14 approaching. As time went by, Muslims came from the surrounding villages
15 and told stories, and as I said the shooting approached both from
16 Prijedor and from Sanski Most so that we were increasingly encircled.
17 The situation was changing. The people were withdrawing, becoming
18 withdrawn and afraid. And fear could be sensed. It was almost palpable.
19 Because people felt helpless. They saw what was happening around them,
20 and they were probably fearful that that would happen to us too, but
21 nobody wanted to say it out loud.
22 So the situation was becoming more and more hopeless and more and
23 more bad for us. In addition, after a couple of weeks, the power supply
24 was cut off, so we were unable anymore to watch television. The food in
25 the refrigerators and freezers had gone bad. So people were becoming --
1 realising that it was turning for the worse.
2 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I would request that the Court Officer
3 call 65 ter 18438 to our screens.
4 Q. Sir, do you recognise the building in this picture?
5 A. This is the Brisevo Catholic church right before the war.
6 MR. TRALDI: And, Your Honours, I'd request that 65 ter 18438 be
7 admitted into evidence as a public exhibit.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Document 18438 becomes Exhibit P175,
10 Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
12 MR. TRALDI: And I'd ask now that the Court Officer call up and
13 play the video-clip bearing 65 ter number 22594A. I apologise, we'll be
14 playing that.
15 [Video-clip played]
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You can see now on the screen the
17 interior of that same church that we had seen earlier. This is after the
18 attack in 1992.
19 [Video-clip played]
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Again, the same church but from a
21 different angle.
22 MR. TRALDI:
23 Q. And, sir, at the end we saw the church tower. Do you know
24 anything about what happened to the tower?
25 A. The church was destroyed and set on fire inside. And as for the
1 tower, I believe it was demolished by, or, rather, destroyed by a
2 hand-held launcher, a Zolja or some kind of anti-tank weapon. So the top
3 of the tower was destroyed by this piece of weaponry, and -- as well as
4 the bell tower.
5 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour, I'd request that 65 ter 22594A be
6 admitted into evidence as a public exhibit.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Video 22594A becomes Exhibit P176, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
10 MR. TRALDI:
11 Q. Mr. Atlija, at paragraph 108 of Exhibit P168, your ICTY
12 statement, in page 21 of the English and the B/C/S, you mention that all
13 the Catholic churches and the mosque in Ljubija commune were destroyed.
14 Can you tell us when that happened?
15 A. I'd just like to say that officially Ljubija was not a
16 municipality at the time. The church and most of the other religious
17 buildings were destroyed at that time during the attack. So the Brisevo
18 church was destroyed in a direct attack on Brisevo. And as for the other
19 religious buildings, they were destroyed within the next couple of weeks.
20 Not all on one day.
21 Q. And, sir, in your written evidence, you discuss victims named
22 Mato Buzuk, Milan Buzuk, and others with the same last name. Did you
23 ever learned what happened to someone named Morge Buzuk?
24 A. Well, I would also like to point out that Morge is not a name,
25 it's actually a nickname. His last name was Buzuk and he worked at the
1 same company where I worked and he was killed during the attack on
3 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I will not go into further detail
4 about the attack in reliance on adjudicated facts 919 through 924. I
5 would, however, ask that the document marked 65 ter 26499A be called to
6 our screens and that the Court Officer turn to page 3 of the English and
7 4 of the B/C/S original.
8 And while that's coming up, Your Honours, this is one of the
9 documents that I mentioned at the beginning. It's an excerpt from the
10 list of persons from the Banja Luka bishopric killed during 1992 which
11 was provided to OTP directly by the bishopric.
12 Your Honour, as I -- apparently there is an issue with calling
13 this exhibit up, I suggest that I move to the next area while it's
14 called. Ah, now it's on the screen.
15 Q. And, sir, do you recognise this document?
16 A. Yes, I do.
17 Q. And what is it?
18 A. This is a list of people who were killed in the Brisevo area.
19 But, for instance, the Matanovic family, they officially belonged to
20 Stara Rijeka village, which was a border-line area between Brisevo and
21 Stara Rijeka. Well, what's important to say is that this is a list of
22 people who were killed at that time.
23 Q. And did you have a chance to review this list during preparation
24 for your testimony?
25 A. Yes. I reviewed it, and I think that I mentioned a number of
1 names where I wasn't certain about the fate of those people. I didn't
2 know them too well.
3 Q. And just to go over some of those brief names that you were not
4 certain of sir. Looking at page 4 of the B/C/S, I understand you
5 believed that the people listed at names 4 and 30 may have died elsewhere
6 and not in Brisevo.
7 A. Yes, that's what I said.
8 Q. And on page 5 of the B/C/S, I understand you do not know the
9 people listed at names 55 and 66; is that correct?
10 A. 55 Ante Tokmacic [phoen], that's correct. I don't know the man.
11 I can't recall him. As well as the name under 66, Tomislav Buleta. I'm
12 not sure and I don't know what happened to that man. I don't know who
13 that was.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The right name was not on the screen when you put
15 the question to the witness. You should wait for the appearance of the
16 correct page.
17 MR. TRALDI: I apologise, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Especially if you only refer to numbers. There
19 are so many numbers, starting from number 1 again.
20 MR. TRALDI:
21 Q. With regard to the remaining names, sir, you lived in Brisevo
22 during the attack and participated in many of the burials of people who
23 died during that attack. To the best of your knowledge, subject to the
24 clarifications above, when did the remaining people listed here die?
25 A. Could you please clarify? I'm not sure I understood your
1 question. Maybe I was a bit distracted. The people who were killed
2 whose names appear on this list, they were all killed on the same day
3 during the attack on Brisevo.
4 Now, could you please repeat the second part of your question?
5 Q. That -- that answers my question, actually, sir.
6 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I would tender 65 ter 26499A as a
7 public exhibit. And, for the record, I would note that it's the portion
8 beginning at the title "Stara Rijeka" an ending just above the title
9 "Surkovac" that we are suggesting that the witness can authenticate.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I see that you referred to the names under
11 Stara Rijeka. But when it was introduced, it was people being killed in
12 Brisevo? Is that -- could we ask the witness whether that's the same, or
13 is it where they were exhumed?
14 Could you tell us?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can clarify this.
16 The title of the document says "Stara Rijeka," but I've just
17 heard that this was obtained from the Banja Luka bishopric. Now, the
18 village Presevo belonged to the bishopric of Stara Rijeka; however, most
19 of these people were actually from Presevo and not from Stara Rijeka.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that clarifies the matter.
21 Mr. Traldi, you will only rely on the names mentioned under
22 Stara Rijeka.
23 MR. TRALDI: That's right, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections?
25 If not, Madam Registrar.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Document 26499A becomes Exhibit P177,
2 Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: P177 is admitted into evidence.
4 MR. TRALDI:
5 Q. Mr. Atlija, in your statements, you mention women who were raped.
6 Could you explain to the Trial Chamber why you didn't want to give their
7 names in your statement?
8 A. Yes, gladly. I did not want to give their names because those
9 women were born, grew up, and lived in a very conservative Catholic
10 environment, and any publication of their names would be additional
11 suffering to them and they had suffered enough already. And, to the best
12 of my abilities, I will never mention any of those names. If any of
13 those women want to talk about it themselves, I don't object to that, but
14 I will not be the one to disclose their names.
15 Q. And did you see any of those women who had been raped
17 A. I saw them and I talked with them.
18 Q. And what condition were they in at the time?
19 A. Terrible condition. Suffice it to say that we had very much
20 difficulty preventing some of them from committing suicide.
21 Q. And, Mr. Atlija, in your statements, for instance P168,
22 paragraphs 105 to 107, you mention you were -- repeatedly spoke with
23 Vojo Kupresanin about crimes that you said were committed by Serb forces?
24 About how many times did you speak with Kupresanin in total?
25 A. I met with Vojo Kupresanin on three occasions, but we talked on
1 the phone on many more occasions. I can't tell you exactly how many.
2 Q. And in all those conversations, sir, did Kupresanin suggest, ever
3 suggest, the possibility that anyone would be punished for the crimes you
4 described to him?
5 A. No, he never said a word about any of that. The only thing he
6 did say was that he would try to intercede with General Talic so such
7 things would stop. And he gave me access to the telephone service to
9 Q. And did Kupresanin ever arrange a meeting for you with any other
10 Serb leader?
11 A. Kupresanin organised a meeting with the then-mayor of the Serbian
12 Prijedor municipality, Mr. Stakic.
13 Q. Can you describe that meeting for us?
14 A. There were three of us in the delegation. The meeting was
15 relatively short. There was another man in Mr. Stakic's office together
16 with Mr. Stakic. We later learned that his name was Sovanovic. I don't
17 know exactly what his position was. I believe he was his deputy. They
18 offered that they move us to intact houses that remained in the Muslim
19 village of Biscani, but after a short conversation we declined that
21 Q. And did Stakic or any other Serb leader you spoke with ever
22 suggest the possibility that anyone would be punished for the crimes you
23 were aware of?
24 A. No. To this day, not one.
25 Q. When you spoke with Kupresanin and Stakic and other Serb leaders,
1 what did you ask of them?
2 A. The only thing that I asked of them was to allow us to move out
3 of that region without any impediments, and I will quote what I said then
4 to Mr. Kupresanin in the presence of Mr. Rasula, who was the police
5 commander in the Serbian municipality of Sanski Most. There was also
6 Bishop Komarica and some other people present. I said this to him:
7 "Sir, you have territory, you've gained territory, so just allow
8 people to move out from there. If you absolutely need to have Brisevo
9 and those couple of hills there, you, the Serbian military, and the
10 Serbian people, you can have them, but just let us go in peace."
11 However, he did not do that.
12 Q. And in your meetings with Serb leaders and on the basis of those
13 meetings, did you develop an impression why they were reluctant to let
14 you leave?
15 A. Well, I can illustrate this. One of their excuses was, Listen,
16 we have been accused of ethnic cleansing, and if we now let you go that
17 will be an additional argument to accuse us of the same thing. And what
18 I replied to that was, Well, what? And if you kill us all here, that
19 wouldn't be ethnic cleansing? So I assumed they wanted to keep us there
20 for some negotiations as hostages. Because Brisevo had no strategic
21 significance in military terms or political or economic terms. And those
22 couple of hills there, they were completely irrelevant. So it's a real
23 shame that so many people died for nothing.
24 Q. And, Mr. Atlija, in Exhibit P168 you talk about how before the
25 war, Brisevo was an almost completely Croatian village by ethnicity and
1 it was destroyed. Not a single Croatian house left. Have any of the
2 Croats who lived there subsequently returned?
3 A. No one returned to live there permanently.
4 Q. And have any of the homes been rebuilt?
5 A. Well, it would be more correct to say that three or four houses
6 were built.
7 Q. And if no one has returned, sir, to live there, when are the
8 houses used?
9 A. The only purpose of those houses is for us to meet there once a
10 year to commemorate those unfortunate events. That is when a couple of
11 hundred of people would gather there and we would use those homes so that
12 we wouldn't have to stay out in the open, so that we would have a roof
13 above our heads.
14 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, that concludes my examination.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Traldi.
16 We had a few longer sessions this morning, therefore I think we
17 should take a break now and then resume at 20 minutes to 2.00 for the
18 remaining 25 minutes.
19 Mr. Atlija, could you follow the usher. We take a break of 20
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 [The witness stands down]
23 JUDGE ORIE: We'll resume in 20 minutes from now.
24 --- Recess taken at 1.18 p.m.
25 --- On resuming at 1.41 p.m.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
2 Meanwhile, I read out a decision.
3 On the 30th of August, 2012, the Prosecution tendered the map
4 book known under number 65 ter 28329. With the same limitations as with
5 another map binder admitted already under P3, this map binder is now also
6 admitted. I remind the parties of what the Chamber said in relation to
7 P3, namely that, and I quote:
8 "The Chamber recognises that the markings in P3 are mainly
9 illustrations of the Prosecution's case which need to be proven by
10 evidence. The Chamber aware of this and will not rely on these markings
11 in making any findings. As a result, the map binder will be treated
12 mainly as a reference."
13 One second, please. Please be seated. This was the end of the
15 I add to that that P3 also continues photographs with
16 descriptions. Although not technically markings, the Chamber will
17 similarly not rely on such descriptions without other evidence.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE ORIE: So what I said is just valid both for the
20 photographs in P3 and in 65 ter 28329, Madam Registrar, which will
21 receive what exhibit number?
22 THE REGISTRAR: Document 28329 becomes Exhibit P178,
23 Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: And is therefore admitted under this number with the
25 same restrictions, as far as the use is concerned, as the Chamber decided
1 for P3.
2 Our apologies, Mr. Atlija, for letting you wait for a second.
3 Mr. Lukic, are you ready to start of the cross-examination of the
5 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour, I am.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
7 Mr. Atlija, you will be cross-examined by Mr. Lukic. Mr. Lukic
8 is counsel for Mr. Mladic.
9 Please proceed.
10 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
11 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:
12 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Atlija.
13 A. Good day, Mr. Lukic.
14 Q. Can we start?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Thank you. I'd like to ask you about certain events that took
17 place in the immediate vicinity of the village of Brisevo.
18 Do you know that on the 23rd of July, 1992, three Serbian
19 soldiers were killed in the village of Raljas; Gojic, Milenko, Djuric,
20 Borislav, and Curguz, Milan?
21 A. I heard that Milan Curguz was killed. As for whether it's in the
22 village of Raljas, I don't know. But it was the wood called Borik where
23 there was a certain path. But as to how he was killed and by whom, I do
24 not know. I don't know about these other two men.
25 Q. Did you know Gojic, Milenko, who was born in Ljubija?
1 A. The name is familiar, but I can't remember the face. But I did
2 know Mr. Curguz.
3 Q. Thank you. Did you hear anything about who killed him?
4 A. As far as Milan Curguz is concerned, there were several stories
5 that I heard. One was that there was a quarrel between Serbian soldiers
6 and that he was killed by a comrade-in-arms of his, a colleagues of his.
7 The other story was that he was shot in a dispute with certain Muslims in
8 the village of Kurevo. But as for what the truth is and what is no more
9 than rumour, unfortunately, I'm not in a position to say. I don't know.
10 Q. Thank you. I'm just waiting for the interpretation to finish.
11 Did you hear that on the following day, Zoran Radulovic was killed? And
12 this was also in the vicinity of the village of Raljas. This was on the
13 24th of July, 1992.
14 A. I knew Zoran Radulovic personally. I heard that he had been
15 killed, but as to how he was killed and by whom, I couldn't say. I also
16 heard that he was killed somewhere in the vicinity of the Kurevo woods.
17 Q. Thank you. Did you know or hear anything about Asim Muhic who
18 led some of the armed men in the village of Hambarine?
19 A. Asim Muhic, no, I don't know him, but I know Aziz Aliskovic whose
20 name appears in my statement, and you have certainly heard about him.
21 Q. Yes, Aziz Aliskovic was a policeman?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And Asim Muhic was a lieutenant. But, very well, if you haven't
24 heard of him. We'll return to the other issue of the people from
25 Hambarine later on. Very briefly now, do you have your statement in
1 front of you?
2 A. If you mean my written statement, no, I don't have it before me.
3 Q. Very well. Could we see Prosecution Exhibit ...
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It looks like I haven't noted down
5 the number. It's a 65 ter number.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Could you assist, Mr. --
7 THE REGISTRAR: This would be P168, Your Honours.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could we see paragraph 3
9 on the screen, please.
10 Q. Paragraph -- in paragraph 3 you say:
11 "I would also like to say that there is certain information in
12 the statement that has to do with the military attack, and this was
13 information provided to me by my friends."
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. Later you drew a map that showed the units that, according to
16 you, participated in the attack on the village of Brisevo; is that
18 A. That's correct.
19 Q. So that is an amalgamation of the information you had, the
20 information you obtained from conversations with other local inhabitants
21 from your village; isn't that correct? Or is this information that you'd
22 directly obtained -- it's not information that you directly obtained --
23 or not all of it is the information that you directly obtained; is that
25 A. Yes, you're correct. I didn't directly obtain all the
1 information. Some of the information was obtained from others.
2 Q. And according to your statement --
3 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please repeat his last question.
4 JUDGE ORIE: For the record, could you please repeat your last
5 question, Mr. Lukic. And, as I indicated already, to slow down.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Repeat the question for the sake of the transcript, not because
8 you didn't answer my question: According to what you stated, you only
9 saw one person being killed in the village of Brisevo; is that correct?
10 A. Yes, that's correct, Mr. Lukic.
11 Q. Thank you. According to your statement, you said that on that
12 day 68 people were killed in the village of Brisevo; is that correct?
13 A. That is also correct.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now have a look at
16 paragraph 9 in Mr. Atlija's statement.
17 In this paragraph you say:
18 "I was born in the village of Brisevo which is located in the
19 local commune of Ljubija. The other villages that form part of the local
20 commune were Ljubija, Zune, and Raljasi."
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. In addition to these villages that were part of Ljubija, were
23 there other villages with a Croatian majority in the vicinity?
24 A. Yes. There were Gornja Ravska, for example, Stara Rijeka. But
25 Stara Rijeka was part of the Sanski Most municipality but it bordered on
1 Brisevo. Gornja Ravska was also on the border with Brisevo, and these
2 villages had a Croatian majority.
3 Q. Could we agree that these villages didn't suffer the same fate as
4 Brisevo; that is to say, the Croats remained in those villages?
5 A. No. Not completely. The majority moved out as Stara Rijeka. As
6 far as Gornja Ravska is concerned, I think that the majority remained in
7 that village.
8 Q. Is it also correct, Mr. Atlija, that many Croats in the
9 municipality of Prijedor joined the VRS, the Army of Republika Srpska?
10 A. When you say "many," a large number, I don't know what have you
11 in mind. I know that about 100 or 105 people from the village of
12 Gornja Ravska joined the army. It wasn't called the Army of
13 Republika Srpska at the time. I don't know what the official name was,
14 but they did join Serbian units. That is the truth.
15 Q. Thank you. Could we now briefly move into private session?
16 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
17 [Private session]
11 Page 2325 redacted. Private session.
24 [Open session]
25 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation].
3 Q. Mr. Atlija, I would now like to take a look at paragraph 12 of
4 your statement, where you talk about propaganda. Let us wait for it to
5 come up on the screens. You don't have to read it. Can we agree that at
6 this time all three sides engaged in propaganda?
7 A. I'm referring to propaganda that we had access to in Prijedor,
8 that we were exposed to in Prijedor. I believe what you're saying, that
9 all three sides, or all sides, were engaged in propaganda, but what I'm
10 referring to here is the propaganda that we were exposed to in Prijedor
11 municipality, and the propaganda that indoctrinated the citizens of
12 Prijedor. And I'm talking about Prijedor because that is an area that I
13 know things about.
14 Q. Thank you. Isn't it correct that TV Zagreb could be watched, the
15 programmes broadcast by TV Zagreb could be seen in Prijedor municipality
16 because there were repeaters posted there?
17 A. That's correct. It is was possible to follow some programmes on
18 Zagreb TV.
19 Q. Was it possible or did you have reception of the broadcasts from
20 TV Sarajevo because there was a repeater at Vlasic, Mount Vlasic?
21 A. Well, in Brisevo, as far as the time when I was there, it was not
22 possible anymore to receive broadcasts from Sarajevo TV. Whether someone
23 switched off the repeater at Mount Vlasic or not, I don't know, but we
24 couldn't watch those programmes.
25 Q. Thank you. Before TV Sarajevo was switched off at Mrakovica, did
1 you notice that TV Sarajevo stopped broadcasting programmes from Belgrade
3 A. Well, I know that the news at 7.30 or 8.00 p.m., the prime-time
4 news, were broadcasts from different television centres, but that, too,
5 stopped, but I couldn't tell you exactly at what time. I couldn't give
6 you the date.
7 Q. Thank you. It is sufficient to tell us what you know about.
8 Thank you. You say then that the media were openly calling for all Serbs
9 to take revenge and to pay back the old debts from the Second World War,
10 newspapers started referring to Muslims and Croats as fundamentalists and
12 A. Yes, that's true.
13 Q. Did you notice that that had an effect on the local Serbs?
14 A. Well, unfortunately, yes, it did have an impact.
15 Q. Did you observe that, too, when armed Serbs came to your village
16 of Brisevo, when they attacked it?
17 A. On that day, on the day of the attack itself, I was busy
18 elsewhere, but immediately following this attack from conversations with
19 others and when we had occasion to hear things they were talking about, I
20 could say yes, it did have an impact on them, too.
21 Q. You also say that they kept repeating that Serbs, Orthodox Serbs,
22 were threatened by fundamentalists and Ustashas who wanted to exterminate
23 Serbs. Was it your impression that the Serbs believed this, that they
24 really believed this?
25 A. Well, that's the sorry part. And to this day I really regret
1 that they were actually certain that what they were thinking was true.
2 Q. Thank you. Now I would like to refer you to paragraph 14 of your
3 statement. In paragraph 14 you say the following:
4 "The following couple of months I remained in Brisevo because it
5 was impossible to go to Prijedor without a special permit that was issued
6 by the Serb authorities in Ljubija."
7 A. Yes, that's correct.
8 Q. Is it also correct that Serb civilians, too, had to obtain these
9 permits to be allowed to move in Prijedor municipality? I'm talking
10 about civilians.
11 A. In the entire area of Prijedor municipality, I couldn't say with
12 certainty. But I do know that people from Ljubija, people of Serb
13 ethnicity from Ljubija, didn't have any difficulty travelling to Prijedor
14 or moving about in Prijedor, or even travelling in their own vehicle,
15 which, for us, was unthinkable.
16 Q. Did you, at the time, have occasion to move around, together with
17 some Serb civilians at that time?
18 A. No, not together with a Serb civilian.
19 Q. In other words, you don't know that they, too - in other words,
20 the Serb civilians - had to have a permit in order to move around freely
21 in Prijedor municipality?
22 A. Now whether they had any permits or any kind of paper in their
23 pockets, I really don't know anything about that, and I couldn't tell.
24 Q. Thank you. Who issued these permits, these passes, that allowed
25 free movement; do you know?
1 A. As far as I know, these permits were issued at the Serb so-called
2 command. I don't know exactly the official name, but I know that it was
3 run by the Taranjac brothers.
4 Q. Could that have been a Crisis Staff in Ljubija?
5 A. It is possible that this body was called a Crisis Staff, but in
6 everyday speech we just referred to it as the command.
7 Q. Thank you. Now, on page 16082 in the Stanisic/Zupljanin case,
8 when you testified, you said that these permits were issued by the
9 Serbian Crisis Staff in Ljubija. Does this help refresh your memory?
10 A. Yes, it is possible that that was called a Crisis Staff, but you
11 will allow that after all these years, I may forget a detail or two -- I
12 may have forgotten a detail or two.
13 Q. Do you know who introduced the curfew in Prijedor municipality or
14 in Ljubija?
15 A. Who and when the curfew was imposed in the entire Prijedor area,
16 I don't know because I was probably already in Brisevo, and we were not
17 very familiar with all the details in Prijedor as were the people who
18 lived there, who lived in Prijedor.
19 Q. Now something of lesser importance, but you did mention it your
20 statement in paragraph 15, and I know this is not of lesser significance
21 to you, and my apologies, but you say in paragraph 15 that sometime in
22 May of 1992, a Serb, by the name of Milan Mutic broke into my apartment
23 and took up residence there and he still lives there. Of course, you
24 gave this statement many years ago, so let me ask you whether in the
25 meantime you were able to recover your property?
1 A. It is correct, what you've said is correct. However, this man no
2 longer lives in my apartment. And about four or five years ago - I'm not
3 absolutely certain - through various international organisations and the
4 current authorities in Bosnia and Herzegovina, we managed to recover this
5 property and to sell it, not to this man, not to Mutic, and not at the
6 commercial, the ongoing market prices, but we did manage to sell it.
7 Q. Thank you. Now paragraphs 16 and 17 you say:
8 "In early May 1992, several hundred Muslim women and children
9 from those villages took shelter in Brisevo. They stayed in our village
10 five or six days. Some of them later returned to their own village and
11 others tried to get to Sanski Most."
12 A. Yes, that's correct. Most of them were from Hambarine, and some
13 left for Stari Majdan, Sanski Most, and others decided after a few days
14 to return to Mataruska hills, as they referred to them. These are the
15 hills where Muslim villages were.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, I'm looking at the clock. We have to
17 adjourn for the day.
18 I first would like to instruct you, Mr. Atlija, that you should
19 not speak with anyone or communicate in any other way with whomever about
20 your testimony, whether that is the testimony you gave today or whether
21 testimony still to be given tomorrow. Is that clear to you?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is clear. Thank you, I
23 understand you.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'd like to see you back tomorrow morning at
25 9.30 in the morning in this same courtroom. And you now may follow the
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.
3 [The witness stands down]
4 JUDGE ORIE: We adjourn for the day and will resume tomorrow,
5 Thursday, the 6th of September, 9.30 a.m. in this same courtroom, I.
6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.15 p.m.,
7 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 6th day of
8 September, 2012, at 9.30 a.m.