Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2674

 1                           Thursday, 20 September 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 9             This is the case IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             If there are no preliminaries, then could the witness be escorted

12     into the courtroom.

13             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Groome.

15             MR. GROOME:  If I could briefly make use of this time.  It seems

16     that we may have some unused hearing time tomorrow, so with a view

17     towards trying to make full use of the time, the Chamber had asked me to

18     address the Chamber with respect to 92 bis witnesses on Monday.  I would

19     be prepared to do that tomorrow.  There are also some -- a proposition

20     I'd like to make with respect to some of the documentary evidence with

21     Monday's witness, perhaps we could discuss that, and Ms. Bibles would

22     also like to address some of the concerns raised by Mr. Ivetic with

23     respect to the late notice of exhibits.  So if we could tentatively keep

24     that in our minds for possible matter to be discussed tomorrow.  Thank

25     you.

Page 2675

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If we have time left tomorrow, that could

 2     certainly be used for this purpose.

 3                           [The witness takes the stand]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Vulliamy.

 5             THE WITNESS:  Good morning, Your Honour.  Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I'd like to remind you that you're still bound

 7     by the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of your testimony

 8     yesterday.

 9             THE WITNESS:  Absolutely, sir.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr.  Lukic, are ready to continue -- Mr. Ivetic, are

11     you ready to continue your cross-examination.

12             MR. IVETIC:  I am, Your Honour.

13                           WITNESS:  EDWARD VULLIAMY [Resumed]

14                           Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic: [Continued]

15        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Vulliamy.

16        A.   Good morning, sir.

17        Q.   Yesterday we left off with 65 ter number 17992, and I'd like to

18     go back to that.

19             MR. IVETIC:  And it will be page 5 in the English in e-court at

20     the top of the page, and page 7 in the Serbian in the middle of the page.

21        Q.   And, again, sir, for your information, this your article "Shame

22     of Camp Omarska" that was published 7th of August, 1992.

23             MR. IVETIC:  And again, it's page 5 in the English on the top

24     page 7 in the Serbian in the middle.

25        Q.   And, sir, the selection I would like to ask you about begins as

Page 2676

 1     follows.  It's actually the first full paragraph on that page:

 2             "Stories in Trnopolje, more freely told than in Omarska, are

 3     brimful of the squalid violence and black absurdity of civil war.  There

 4     is a Sana, aged 13, who says: 'I was a fighter for the Muslims.  They

 5     used to put us at the front when the fighting started.  I was so scared

 6     that I ran away to the Serbian side of the village, to come here.  I am

 7     still frightened, but I feel safer.'"

 8             First of all, sir, if you could help me out, is this the same

 9     13-year-old that the ITN crew had filmed that talked about being -- used

10     as used a human shield by the Muslim forces or is this another

11     individual?

12        A.   I'm not exactly sure, but I think it's the same one, yes.

13        Q.   Fair enough.  Next, I'd like to go to the next paragraph in both

14     versions of document, and the selection starts:

15             "Then there was Igor, the Serbian soldier and guard whose uncle

16     was killed last week and who says:  'I have my old school friends and my

17     teacher in here [sic],' and then introduces his old pal Azmir, a

18     professional footballer from behind the wire.  'I was taken here from

19     Rizavanovci, after the fighting started,' says Azmir.  'There was some

20     shooting from the Muslim side, then the police came and took the people

21     away to clear the village of Muslims and to do the fighting.'"

22             Do you remember these words, sir?

23        A.   Yes, I do.  I remember reporting them.  I don't have a vivid

24     recollection of the interview, but that is what the boy said.

25        Q.   Okay.  Have you ever had occasion to hear or research about a

Page 2677

 1     military tactic whereby civilians are evacuated from a combat area before

 2     combat is engaged with enemy forces?

 3        A.   Generally or in this war?

 4        Q.   Generally, sir.

 5        A.   Generally, yes, I'm sure it happens.

 6        Q.   Okay.

 7        A.   I'm not aware of that many occasions on which civilians were

 8     cleared during this part of the territory before they were attacked.

 9        Q.   Would you agree with me that your information at the time was

10     that Trnopolje centre was populated by civilians mainly, that is to say,

11     persons that were believed not to have taken part in the armed uprising?

12        A.   My impression was that both Trnopolje and Omarska were populated

13     by civilians and people who had not taken part in the fighting, contrary

14     to what we'd been told.

15        Q.   Sir, again, we'll get to Omarska.  I'm asking question, and I

16     want answers to the questions I'd ask you, sir.  So I would ask you to

17     focus your answers and we'd get through this a lot quicker.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vulliamy, if at the end you feel that by just

19     limiting yourself to the answer -- the question as put to you that

20     something important would have been lost, then, please, you'll always

21     have an opportunity at the end of your testimony to address whatever

22     matter in this context.

23             THE WITNESS:  I'm very grateful to Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

25             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

Page 2678

 1        Q.   Am I correct that you were told by the Serb authorities in

 2     Prijedor that Omarska for those persons who were suspected of having

 3     taken part in crimes or in being combatants and thus needed to be

 4     investigated and screened out from normal civilians?

 5        A.   Yes.  And there was a briefing in Omarska about various

 6     categories of prisoners, and we had also been guaranteed by Dr. Karadzic

 7     that there were no camps for civilians.

 8        Q.   You've mentioned the -- you've mentioned the briefing.  I'm not

 9     sure if we're going to get this.  Let me ask you this way:  Am I correct

10     that persons found to be not involved in the military uprising were

11     transferred from Omarska to Trnopolje, while those who were found to have

12     committed crimes as part of the military uprising were sent to Manjaca?

13        A.   It was quite a complicated series of categories on which we were

14     being briefed.  To the best of my recollection, that was the idea or one

15     of the versions that was given, that, yes, those who were found to have

16     taken up arms would go to Manjaca as prisoners of war, and those who had

17     not would be taken to Trnopolje.

18             That did not accord with various other briefings in which I was

19     told that people in Omarska were themselves prisoners of war, according

20     to another account, but I think I've testified today -- sorry, yesterday,

21     that there was nothing in -- at the time to indicate that the people in

22     Omarska had been in any way combatants, and if I am permitted to talk

23     about what has been found out subsequently, I now know them not have

24     been.

25        Q.   Well, sir, I'd like to limit your testimony to what you

Page 2679

 1     eye-witnessed, what you objectively saw.  I don't want to talk about

 2     matters that you've researched and that you --

 3        A.   Okay.

 4        Q.   Especially research that I have not been provided.  That would be

 5     unfair, sir.

 6             Now, let's just finish up with Trnopolje and then move to

 7     Omarska.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  At this time, Your Honours, I'd like to play the

 9     footage from the -- from yesterday, the item that we had wanted to --

10     delayed for today to have a transcript.  We have prepared a transcript

11     and that has been -- the process of it started to put it into e-court,

12     but of course documents cannot get into e-court within the time-period

13     that we have this morning to try and get it in, so I've distributed hard

14     copies, I believe, to all the booths and to opposing counsel, and I

15     believe Madam Registrar has copies for the Judges, if that's accurate.

16             And then with Your Honours's indulgence, I can play the first

17     clip one time through and then play it again as per the procedure that

18     we've now introduced into these proceedings.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Meanwhile, Mr. Ivetic, if you want the witness to

20     limit himself to what he saw, then put questions and ask him what he saw

21     instead of asking:  Am I correct that persons found to be not

22     involved...?  You are not asking for any personal observation of the

23     witness, and then later to say that it's unfair that he does seems not to

24     be the best practice.

25             MR. IVETIC:  I apologise.  I did misspeak.  I thought we were

Page 2680

 1     still talking about what had been told by the Prijedor officials as

 2     was --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  No, read what your question was.

 4             MR. IVETIC:  May I proceed with the video?

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Please.  If it is with text, we play it twice, yes.

 6                           [Video-clip played]

 7             MR. IVETIC:  And now, Your Honours, for the second time.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, Mr. Ivetic.  That last speaker, I don't see

 9     his speech on the transcript?

10             MR. IVETIC:  It should be -- I apologise, Your Honours.  I don't

11     have a copy of the transcript in front of me, but it should have

12     translated the entire --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll carefully look at it and listen to it in the

14     second round.

15                           [Defence counsel confer]

16                            [Video-clip played]

17              "The two film crews visiting a humanitarian refugee centre in

18     the village of Trnopolje, some 3 to 4 kilometres away from Omarska.  The

19     centre was mainly used by people in transit.  They were trying to get

20     away from the fighting and needed a place to stay during their travels.

21     Our reporter, Mr. Bozanic, talked to some of these people who had escaped

22     the war zone."


24             "Serbo-Croat 1st Speaker:  First came those that didn't fight,

25     that didn't ever fight.  What do we have to fight for.

Page 2681

 1             "Serbo-Croat 1st Speaker:  As soon as the shells started falling,

 2     we had to come.

 3             "Serbo-Croat Reporter:  And what do you expect now?

 4             "Serbo-Croat 1st Speaker:  That all the big shots step aside so

 5     they can live together again.

 6             "Serbo-Croat Reporter:  What kind of status do you have here.

 7     Can you move ... are you free to move around?

 8             "Serbo-Croat 2nd Speaker:  We can go and gather things and food

 9     from the neighbouring villages.

10             "Serbo-Croat 3rd Speaker:  They let us go ... to the villages.

11             "Serbo-Croat 4th Speaker:  I was lucky.  I came with small kids.

12     And I came with them from there, through the field.  Nobody mistreated

13     us.  Nobody touched us.  I was for 15 days in my village.  My relatives

14     were picked up and many of them have already reached Zagreb.  Whoever had

15     relatives, the majority would go to create Croatia."

16             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter notes that the sound quality is

17     so poor that it is difficult to hear everything properly.

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  French translation is finished.

20             Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

21             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.  And I do note that the

22     sound quality was low.  It took us multiple times of listening through

23     the tape to try and compile the transcript, and I believe there are still

24     some portions that we could not fully make out.

25        Q.   Sir, first of all, am I correct that this individual, this

Page 2682

 1     reporter in here is one of the gentlemen that was accompanying the ITN

 2     crew and yourself with the Serb TV crew upon the visit to Trnopolje?

 3        A.   I'm not absolutely certain, but you introduced it yesterday, I

 4     think, as the footage having been shot by the crew which was part of our

 5     escort, some but not all of whom were in fatigues.  But it's a little

 6     confusing -- a bit difficult to answer your question, because I notice

 7     that the compilation, the copyright, is dated 2000 to 2008, which is

 8     several years after the event, by, and I've never

 9     heard of them.  So I'm not exactly sure what's shot when and what's

10     compiled when by who, but obviously this is put together in 2000 and

11     2008.  But I -- the footage, originally, would have been shot by the

12     Bosnian Serb crew, I think.

13        Q.   Okay.  And am I correct that this particular scene that we saw,

14     this was the part of Trnopolje that was not fenced in where people could

15     move in and out?

16        A.   I think it was one of the parts of the camp around the buildings

17     where people were permitted to go and scavenge for food, yes.  It wasn't

18     the bit in which they were interned within that compound by the fence

19     that we saw yesterday.  There were various parts of the camp for

20     different reason, as I've tried to explain.

21        Q.   And yesterday we talked about the comments of Dr. Stakic relating

22     to the -- prior to you visiting Trnopolje.  It would appear that these

23     people here in Trnopolje were saying some of the same things as

24     Dr. Stakic, would you not agree?

25        A.   Yes.  I've tried to help the Court with this notion of Trnopolje

Page 2683

 1     as a confused and confusing place.  These people in -- in the montage,

 2     posthumously, as I gather from the dates on it, put together - shot by

 3     the Bosnian Serb crew, do indeed cite people who appear to say some of

 4     the things that accord with what Mr. Stakic was saying, though I noticed

 5     that the man said he was in flight from shelling when he arrived and that

 6     accords, I think, perhaps with what I've heard from other people, there

 7     and since who have fled villages under shell fire.

 8             But in response to your question, given that this was put

 9     together in 2000, I think that to describe Trnopolje as a humanitarian

10     centre after what I had gleaned that day and what we were given -- what

11     we were actually given that day in the photographs showing emaciated

12     torsos and people beaten black and blue, and they were given to us on the

13     day and, indeed, before this Tribunal by the year 2008 or 2000.  But that

14     is --

15             MR. LUKIC:  If can interrupt you, sir.

16        A.   Well, if I could finish.

17        Q.   Well, I want to ask about this:  You said people.  Wasn't there

18     one photograph of one person that you received?

19        A.   No.  There were more than one -- one person that gave us the

20     film, but there are more than one person in the photographs.

21        Q.   I don't remember that from your testimony.  We'll check.  Now

22     please put your answer.

23        A.   My answer is that --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] ...  Ms. Bibles.

25             MS. BIBLES:  Thank you, Your Honours.

Page 2684

 1             Your Honours, although it's somewhat innocuous, the practice of

 2     commenting on a witness's evidence we would object to.  We would simply

 3     ask for the standard question/answer format.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, what you remember and what you'll check

 5     is for you to decide and not to be communicated with the witness.

 6             Please proceed.

 7             MR. IVETIC:  Fair enough.  If we can go to the next clip, which

 8     is from 3 minutes and 46 seconds to 4 minutes and 34 seconds of part two

 9     of the original video.  And Your Honours, again, this is a section that

10     is subtitled but for which we did, apart from the subtitles, prepare a --

11     the transcript which starts on page 2 of the hard copy that was handed

12     out, so I will play it through once through, beginning now.

13                           [Video-clip played]

14             MR. IVETIC:  Second time through.

15                            [Video-clip played]

16             THE INTERPRETER:  "[VOICEOVER]:  Most of the people came here

17     voluntarily, probably for food, and very often there was the issue of

18     evacuation.  You're from a big international organisation.  Did you

19     receive assistance?

20             "No.  Only for refugees from Croatia.

21             "But since the fighting in Prijedor, people have the status of

22     displaced persons, not that of refugees."

23             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter again notes that the sound

24     quality is very poor and it is difficult to verify the accuracy of the

25     translation provided.

Page 2685

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  That is on the record that the sound quality is very

 2     poor and difficult to verify.  We'll see how to deal with that.

 3             Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

 4             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5        Q.   Mr. Vulliamy, do you recall this lady from the Yugoslav Red Cross

 6     being at Trnopolje when you visited the ITN crew?

 7        A.   Yes.  Not vividly, but I do recall her being there.  She is from

 8     the Yugoslav, not the International Red Cross.  Her point about -- that's

 9     why I noted her point about the international aid.  The International Red

10     Cross had been refused admission into Trnopolje.

11        Q.   Did you have knowledge of humanitarian aid sent from Serbia for

12     these displaced persons at Trnopolje?

13        A.   Your Honours, no, I didn't.  We -- there was a medical centre in

14     Trnopolje which I've described in previous testimony.  Won't take your

15     time with that now.

16             But just to answer the question:  The only aid, if that's the

17     right word, that I was aware of at the time on the day was that which

18     Dr. Merdzanic, who we saw in the video extract, and a lady vet helping

19     him had managed to scavenge from houses from which people had fled in the

20     village.  The Yugoslav Red Cross was there, I do recall them and

21     interviewed them.  Indeed, they gave Omarska a clear bill of health and

22     were happy with the state of affairs at Trnopolje.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, the question was focussing on humanitarian aid

24     sent from Serbia, so the simple answer to that is that you are not aware

25     of that?

Page 2686

 1             THE WITNESS:  Unless some of the material they'd scavenged from

 2     these houses had come from Serbia, but I wasn't aware of the Yugoslav Red

 3     Cross providing any.  Only that I've just described.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but the question was not limited to the Red

 5     Cross.  I think the initial question was humanitarian aid sent from

 6     Serbia by --

 7             THE WITNESS:  Whoever.  Yes, sorry, Your Honour.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 9        Q.   The last excerpt that I'd like to play is from the 7 minutes and

10     49 seconds to 9 minutes and 40 seconds of part 2 and is the first 59

11     seconds of part 3.

12             MR. IVETIC:  And this section, Your Honours, is not subtitled.

13     However, it is almost entirely in English except for a few utterances at

14     the end.  The transcript -- draft transcript that we have prepared last

15     night from pages -- the middle of page 2 onward tries to incorporate both

16     the transcript of the spoken English and a translation of the spoken

17     B/C/S, or Serbo-Croat, and so I will now play it through the first time.

18                           [Video-clip played]

19             MR. IVETIC:  And now the second viewing.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The quality seems to me already very poor,

21     although --

22             MR. IVETIC:  It is, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  -- what I read is -- at least comes close to the

24     gist, apparently, of what is discussed, although I had great difficulties

25     following it even in English.

Page 2687

 1             But let us play it, and with all the shortcomings and with all

 2     the reserves we may have as to the quality of the material of the

 3     transcript, and, therefore, necessarily, not because of our interpreters

 4     but of the translation as well.

 5             MR. IVETIC:  Absolutely.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 7                            [Video-clip played]

 8             "Hello.

 9             "My name is Mehmed.

10             "How did you come to be here?

11             "I think it is very fine.  Nothing wrong but it is very hot.

12             "Do you sleep outside?

13             "No, inside.

14             "[Indiscernible] take you back and --

15             "No, it is very fine

16             "You're fine?

17             "Very fine.

18             "How did you come here?  You're a fighter?

19             "With a bus.  With a bus.

20             "Are you a fighter?

21             "No.

22             "They came to your house and took you?

23             "Yes.

24             "Do you feel safe here?

25             "I think it is very safe.  But it's -- it's very hot.  Other

Page 2688

 1     things that [indiscernible].

 2             "But this man is very thin.

 3             "Yes, very thin, but, I think [indiscernible] -- is thin, all the

 4     people is not the same.  Not the same.  No, no, I think this person is a

 5     refugee.  Not a prisoner.

 6             "[Indiscernible].

 7             "I think it depends on the legal government.

 8             "Depends on the legal government.  You cannot leave -- you cannot

 9     leave here?

10             "No, not now.  Not now.

11             "Where are the women and children?

12             "Gone.

13             "Women and children in the house [indiscernible].

14             "Where are the women and children?

15             "Gone.

16             "The women in the house, other [indiscernible].

17             "What does this exist?

18             "Yes.

19             "[Indiscernible].

20             "It's a refugee camp

21             "Where do you want to go?

22             "Go home."

23             THE INTERPRETER: "[VOICEOVER]:  A voice coming from the

24     background says:  Tell them there's no food.  A voice from the

25     background:  Look at the sight of him."

Page 2689

 1             MR. IVETIC:

 2        Q.   Sir, am I correct that you would have been located with

 3     Ms. Marshall, who is the female reporter that was in this clip?

 4        A.   Yes.  You can see me in the picture.

 5        Q.   I wasn't sure.

 6        A.   It is.

 7        Q.   And does this video-clip accurately depict what you recall this

 8     person in the blue overalls and those around him saying during this

 9     segment?

10        A.   Yes.  I didn't hear all of this.  These are the untransmitted ITN

11     rushes, they must be, as disclosed in, I think, the Tadic case.  I

12     recognise them.

13             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, before we move on to the next topic,

14     can we seek to admit this video 1D259 into evidence with the caveat it

15     should be marked for identification until the draft transcript is

16     uploaded into e-court.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bibles.

18             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honour, we do not oppose marking this video for

19     identification purposes.  We would, however, reserve our position on all

20     materials from this web site until we've had an opportunity obtain a

21     little more foundation.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Whether it comes from that web site or whether

23     just the web site is mentioned in the material is not clear to me yet.

24             Mr. Ivetic, any further information about that?

25             MR. IVETIC:  It's -- well, it's my understanding that that's the

Page 2690

 1     web site that originally re-hosted this video in 2000.  The -- it's

 2     dubbed in English, and my understanding is that there's B/C/S underlying

 3     the English and that this was broadcast on some TV in the region in the

 4     Balkans, probably closer to the events, but I've not been able to verify

 5     that yet and I will provide the Chamber with information as soon as I

 6     find more.

 7             Mr. Vulliamy has now said that this appears to be outtakes that

 8     would have been part of the Tadic proceedings.  I do not know that.  If

 9     that is the case, I will track it down via that means as well.

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  The exhibit will be MFI'd.

12             Madam Registrar.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D259 becomes Exhibit D44, marked for

14     identification, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And keeps that status and we expect more

16     information from the Defence.

17             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

19             MR. IVETIC:

20        Q.   Sir, I would now like to switch gears and focus on Omarska and

21     the time that you spent there as a fact witness.

22             First of all, I would like to call up 65 ter number 17992 again.

23     That would again be you are article written a couple of days after -- or

24     published, I should say, a couple of days after you were at Omarska.  And

25     this time, I would like to look at the second page in English at

Page 2691

 1     something that Mr. Sebakoudin Anezovic [phoen] is reported to have told

 2     you in the article.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  It's in the middle of the page in English.  And I

 4     believe it's also page 3 of the B/C/S.  17992 is the 65 ter number.

 5     There we go.

 6        Q.   And there I think we can see in the middle of the English towards

 7     the top, the section that starts:

 8             "I was in the defence force - but not caught in a fight.  I tried

 9     to get to Trnopolje transit camp (a civilian camp) but the army caught me

10     on the way and brought me here?

11             "Sebakoudin, who shows no signs of beating, says, 'We are going

12     investigated.  Because I know that nothing can be hidden, I tell the

13     truth and hope I will be okay.  If I am guilty, then I'll have to face

14     the consequences.  I speak only of myself - personally, nobody touched

15     me.'"

16             And I think I may have had a missed end quote before "Sebakoudin

17     says," -- before this section that says "Sebakoudin, who shows no sign of

18     beating," and then it should be begin quotations for the remainder of it.

19             Sir, do you recall this interview with this --

20        A.   Yes, I recall talking with this man.  Yeah.  He was presented by

21     the guards on our way in.

22        Q.   When he mentions being part of a defence force, did you take that

23     to mean he was part of the Bosnian Muslim Territorial Defence or TO in

24     Prijedor?

25        A.   Could have been that.  Could have been a policeman in the town.

Page 2692

 1        Q.   These words about Trnopolje transit camp, and especially the part

 2     "(a civilian camp)," are those your words or his?

 3        A.   They would be his.

 4        Q.   If we could stay on the same page I'd like to ask you about

 5     another person that was detained at Omarska -- or excuse me, another

 6     person that you'd -- ah, here it is.

 7             I apologise.  First, before we get to the other person that was

 8     detained, I think I found the discussion that you'd mentioned about the

 9     categories and that's on the same page where there's a person talking and

10     I'd like to start off by reading it.  It goes:

11             "Omarska, they tell us, is an investigative centre for men

12     suspected of being in the Muslim irregular army.  They were [sic] rounded

13     up or arrested, then screened to determine whether they are fighters or

14     civilians."

15             "Apart from their undernourishment and the humiliation of the

16     drill, none of the 80 inmates we saw showed signs of violence or beating.

17             "Those found to have prepared the rebellion go into category A,

18     explains the police chief's spokesperson [sic] Nada Balban.  There have

19     been 126.  They are awaiting trial.

20             "Those found to be fighters are category B and go eventually to a

21     prisoner of war camp at Manjaca, to which the Red Cross has been admitted

22     (and to which the Serbian military were eager to steer us, rather than

23     Omarska), and then to a military court.  'There have been 1.290.'"

24             Now, first, sir, I want to ask you about the phrase here that you

25     use, that the military were eager to steer to you Manjaca.  In fact, sir,

Page 2693

 1     as -- if I can refresh your recollection, isn't it Colonel Arsic of the

 2     military that suggested he could authorise your visit to Manjaca because

 3     it was under the jurisdiction of the army, but if you wanted to go to

 4     these other camps you would have to talk to the civilian authorities?

 5     Isn't that a far more fairer representation of what transpired?

 6        A.   I my recollection is certainly that at the municipal headquarters

 7     in Prijedor, Colonel Arsic had offered to take us to Manjaca, but we

 8     wanted to go to Omarska.  And it is correct, as you say, and I've

 9     testified many times.  He then handed us over to the other people in --

10     on his committee with regard to our trip to Omarska because, as you

11     say -- as you quote, and you say, the Red Cross had visited Manjaca but

12     not Omarska and that was our reason for wanting to go there.

13        Q.   Fair enough.  And now I'd like to ask you about an individual

14     that you interviewed in Omarska.  Do you recall the individual who had

15     injuries to his face that reported that he had fallen and that the

16     injuries were self-induced?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   If I may -- if I may fast forward, am I correct that you ran into

19     this man years later when he was a member of the Bosnian Muslim army in

20     the advance on Donji Vakuf?

21        A.   Yes.  I met him again by pure coincidence in 1995.

22        Q.   Okay.

23             MR. IVETIC:  And, Your Honours, for purposes of the record, this

24     is the 16th September 2002 Stakic transcript, which is P199 in our case.

25     This is transcript page 7941 of that day and is the 44th page in e-court

Page 2694

 1     where the witness talks about this.  For the sake of efficiency, I will

 2     only ask a question as I do not think I need to have the quote up, but by

 3     all means, if -- if you think -- if the other side thinks we need to have

 4     the transcript up it can be put up.

 5        Q.   Now the question that I have that was unclear to me, sir, when

 6     you talked about meeting this man at or near Donji Vakuf, was he -- you

 7     mentioned a Bosnian military commander that was leading the advance on

 8     Donji Vakuf.  Is that this individual or was he one of the other soldiers

 9     that was present?

10        A.   No.  He was one of the other soldiers and he was able to tell me

11     a bit more about the wound that he said had happened because he had

12     fallen over.  It wasn't at all he'd been very, very badly beaten and had

13     been in the meantime treated for damage to his brain.

14        Q.   Okay.  And you also say that he, I believe, in that section of

15     the Stakic case, that he had regained weight.  If I can try and have you

16     go back in time to 1992 when the Prijedor officials were talking to your

17     group, did they tell you of food shortages that were being caused by the

18     war and that were being experienced by all persons in the region of

19     Prijedor?

20        A.   They did say some things about food shortages, but they were --

21     appeared to be not affecting everybody equally and did not explain the

22     skeletal state of Mr. Velic, who is the man at question, when I met him

23     in 2002.

24        Q.   Yesterday at the --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Not totally irrelevant in this context is that the

Page 2695

 1     words in the Stakic transcript are "he had put on an awful lot of weight

 2     by then."  Not "he had gained weight."  "He had put on an awful lot of

 3     weight."

 4             So therefore, if you do not show the relevant portion on the

 5     screen, please be very precise in your quotations.

 6             MR. IVETIC:  I apologise, Your Honour.  I'm just trying to move

 7     along as quickly as possible to finish the witness in the time that I

 8     promised I would.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But you can do that -- I mean, by misquoting,

10     you are, as a matter of fact, we're losing time.  And in preparing -- I'm

11     not inviting you to have it on the screen.  I am inviting you to

12     carefully prepare and give a quote which is accurate, and that doesn't

13     take any time.

14             Please proceed.

15             MR. IVETIC:

16        Q.   At yesterday's transcript, page 2594, lines 22 through 25, you

17     seemed to dismiss the meal served at Omarska saying:

18             "If that's what you could call it."

19             Was that a comment on the quality of the meal?

20        A.   Quality, quantity, and the apparent desperation with which they

21     devoured it, which suggested that they had not seen much food, if any,

22     for a while.

23        Q.   Did anyone mention to you at that time that the kitchen that

24     prepared food for Omarska prepared that same food to feed the Bosnian

25     Serb police and the Bosnian Serb army in Prijedor municipality?

Page 2696

 1        A.   If that's -- they didn't, no.  And if they did, the guards were

 2     certainly getting food from some other source than the prisoners.

 3     Besides, they were in pretty good shape.

 4        Q.   You have already mentioned Mr. Drljaca and Ms. Balaban [phoen]

 5     from the police.  Am I also correct that you were introduced to a

 6     Mr. Mijakic [phoen] who was introduced to you as the commander of

 7     Omarska?

 8        A.   Yes, we were introduced to Mr. Mijakic as the commander of the

 9     guards at the camp.

10        Q.   And, Mr. Vulliamy, am I correct that Mr. Mijakic was also from

11     the Prijedor police structures?

12        A.   I don't know which structure he was part of, actually.  He was --

13     he had a beret on.  He was wearing fatigues.  I didn't and really don't

14     know which structure he was.  But he appeared to be answering to

15     Mr. Drljaca, but I don't know exactly what chain of command he was under.

16     I still don't.

17        Q.   It's fair enough.  Now I'd like to move to another topic.  Am I

18     correct that the Serb authorities gave you a list of suspected sites in

19     Bosnia-Herzegovina where camps were said to be operated by the other

20     sides to the conflict and meant for Serb detainees?

21        A.   Yes.  Such a list came from two sources.  One was Dr. Karadzic

22     himself and the other was from his deputy, Nikola Koljevic, during a

23     rather strange tea we had after we found the camp, when he was sort of

24     jeering at the west, generally, for having taken so long to find them and

25     challenged us to look for the others on the other side.

Page 2697

 1        Q.   And am I correct that one of the locations that was given to you

 2     was Dretelj?

 3        A.   Yes, it was.  And I took, as it were, that -- that the point that

 4     both these men were making seriously, and if I may just -- just go back

 5     to a question you asked me yesterday about sort of doing all the right

 6     things for my career and so on, I actually did not take up the

 7     opportunity to go and bask in our discoveries at Omarska and Trnopolje

 8     but went directly over to the other side, which took some time, in order

 9     to investigate Dretelj.

10        Q.   And you say we went over to the other side.  Dretelj was -- at

11     the first time, you actually visited twice; is that correct?

12        A.   Yes, I did.  Once in 1992 on the occasion I'm talking about now,

13     and then again in either late 1993 or early 1994.  I think late 1993.

14     There were different lots of prisoners in the camp each time.

15        Q.   The first time you went to Dretelj it was operated by the HOS

16     paramilitary group under the auspices of the Croat -- Bosnian Croat

17     forces and Serb detainees were being held there, is that accurate?

18        A.   That is correct, yes, including women Serbian detainees, and we

19     revealed the atrocity of that.

20        Q.   And the second time you visited, it was now no longer the HOS but

21     other Bosnian Croat forces holding Bosnian Muslim detainees, and that

22     would have been the time in 1993?

23        A.   Correct.  It was then transferred under the authority of the HVO,

24     the Bosnian Croat army, and the inmates were, for the most part anyway,

25     Bosnian Muslims.

Page 2698

 1        Q.   For the first part of my question here, I'd like to focus on the

 2     first visit that you had, I believe, around 15 August 1992, give or take

 3     a few days.

 4        A.   Correct.  It's mid-August 1992, yes.  It's immediately after we

 5     found the camps, given the time it took to go round the very long way to

 6     get there.

 7        Q.   Am I correct that you first had to go and see Mr. Mate Boban,

 8     leader of the Bosnian Croat faction, in his office in Grude?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   I'd like to direct your attention to 1D00240.

11             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, there is the transcript of the

12     witness's testimony in the Prlic proceedings before the ICTY.  I'd like

13     to call up page 31 in e-court.  This is transcript page 1504 and this

14     section starts at line 18 and goes on to the next page to line 10.

15             And, sir, here I begin with the question that was posed to you:

16             "Q.  Let me return to something that you said a few minutes [sic]

17     ago.  This is reflected on page 26, lines 13 and 14 of the transcript.

18             "You told us that this meeting was 'at his office in a town

19     called Grude, a small town and quite a menacing place.'

20             "Again, that's lines 13 and 14 of page 26 of today's transcript.

21     Can you elaborate, sir, upon what you meant by 'a menacing place'?

22             "A.  Well, I mean, both in -- both in this war and in previous

23     wars I got used to places where I didn't feel comfortable.  I didn't feel

24     threatened.  And let's put it that although there was no fighting, there

25     was the odd rasp machine-gun fire into the sky.  There were some very

Page 2699

 1     heavy lads around who weren't giving us very welcoming looks.  The -- I

 2     didn't particularly like the fact that the portrait of Ante Pavelic, who

 3     was the Ustasha dictator in the Second World War, was in the windows of

 4     some of the shops, nor did I find it very tasteful that the U - a sort of

 5     capped U - of that movement had been painted on some of the walls.

 6             "I didn't feel that I -- that I was at risk, but it was an

 7     uncomfortable place to be, and it was an intimidating place and a heavily

 8     militarised one, although it was nowhere near any front line."

 9             Sir, do you recall this testimony from Prlic?

10        A.   Yes.  And of course, I recall Grude as you've described.

11        Q.   And does it still accurately comport to your recollections of

12     Grude?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And yesterday we talked about Mr. Stakic's speech where he talked

15     of fears on the parts of Serbs due to their memories of World War II.

16     Was the return of the Ustasha movement one the fears expressed by the

17     Serb officials in Prijedor that you had met with one week prior to

18     meeting with Mr. Boban?

19        A.   Yes, they did talk about their experiences during the

20     Second World War and we discussed this at length, actually, during an

21     extraordinary conversation with Dr. Kovacevic who we met that day in 1992

22     who did make these recollections in 1996 when I talked to him, where he

23     refined very interestingly, and very regretfully, some of the points he'd

24     made in 1992.

25        Q.   We'll get to that.  Am I also correct that the list given to you

Page 2700

 1     by the Serb authorities included two locations at Tarcin and Konjic?

 2        A.   Konjic?  Konjic I think was on the list.  Tarcin, definitely,

 3     because I went to Tarcin to try and investigate that as well.  It was a

 4     tunnel and I couldn't find anything when I went.  It had either not

 5     existed or had been cleared by the time I got there.

 6        Q.   Would you be surprised to find out that right now in the state

 7     court of Bosnia-Herzegovina, they are in the middle of prosecuting eight

 8     Bosnian Muslims precisely in the case of Mustafa Djelenovic -- Djelilovic

 9     and others, case number S1 1 K 007914 KRI precisely for alleged crimes

10     relating to not one but three detention camps in Tarcin that held Serbs,

11     including in a silo, in a school, and in army barracks, torturing them

12     continuously from 1992 through February 1996?

13        A.   Would I be surprised?  No.  If it's -- if the trial is taking

14     place, the trial is taking place.  Why would I be surprised?

15        Q.   But you found no evidence of that?  You didn't see that?

16        A.   When I went there, I didn't see any of the tunnel that I

17     endeavoured to -- to get to, and then having -- other things were

18     happening, I -- perhaps I should have looked harder.  We did Dretelj

19     instead and we did pages 1 to 3 at Dretelj and the appalling conditions

20     of the Serbian prisoners there.  One couldn't go to all the camps and nor

21     did we try to go to all the camps on the Bosnian Serb side.  It would

22     have been impossible.

23        Q.   One last --

24        A.   But it doesn't surprise me, no, sir.

25        Q.   One last question before, I think, we have the break:  What about

Page 2701

 1     Konjic, did you ever have occasion to follow-up on or investigate Konjic?

 2        A.   No, I didn't go to Konjic.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, we're at the break now.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we are at break.

 5             Mr. Ivetic, you made a great effort in giving the case number and

 6     all kind of details of that case.  Are you going to do something with

 7     that or is it -- I mean, is it give the witness further leads to what he

 8     could look at or is it for the Chamber or?

 9             MR. IVETIC:  It's to identify the proceedings to give as much

10     information as possible to the witness to see if he was aware of that

11     proceeding.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

13             MR. IVETIC:  And if -- I guess we could also get paperwork from

14     that case, if Your Honours are interested.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I'm not saying that.

16             We'll take a break and we'll resume at ten minutes to 11.00, but

17     not until after the witness has left the courtroom.

18                           [The witness stands down]

19                           --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

20                           --- On resuming at 10.53 a.m.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

22             Meanwhile, I use the opportunity to deal with a few matters.

23             Scheduling for next week.  The Prosecution has requested that the

24     order of the first two witnesses scheduled for next week be reversed.

25     The Defence does not oppose to this switch and the Chamber allows it.

Page 2702

 1             Could the Prosecution already start thinking about what it wants

 2     to do with the nine documents which were announced to be tendered as

 3     associated exhibits in the Rule 92 ter motion.

 4             MS. BIBLES:  Yes, Your Honours.  I was going to address that at

 5     the end of redirect once I could see which documents have been used.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then we'll wait for that.

 7                           [The witness takes the stand]

 8             Mr. Ivetic, if you're ready you may proceed

 9             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

10        Q.   Sir, the other location we mentioned in Bosnian Serbs where Serb

11     authorities said that Serbs were being held by Muslim forces, Konjic:  Do

12     you agree with me that at the time you didn't know but now you know that

13     place to be called by a different name, Celebici?

14        A.   Yes, I do.

15        Q.   And was there a location called Lara in Split, Croatia, included

16     on the list, if you know?  And did you know anything about that location?

17     Lara.

18        A.   I don't recall that one, no.  I'm sorry.  I'm sure if it was on

19     the list, well and good.  I don't remember it, I'm afraid.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic, if there's any need to correct anything,

21     it's not by speaking aloud.  Especially because your microphone is not

22     switched on so it would be lost for the record anyhow.  Please take off

23     your earphones say it at a low volume to one of the team members and

24     then, of course, the Chamber appreciates your active participation and

25     your contribution to the accuracy of the proceedings.

Page 2703

 1             Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

 2             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 3        Q.   Now, sir, I'd like to move to another topic that you've already

 4     alluded to, the fact that you returned to Prijedor to interview some of

 5     the Serb officials again.  Am I correct that this was in February of

 6     1996?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   The officials you interviewed included Dr. Kovacevic and

 9     Dr. Stakic and, I believe, that the transcript from the Stakic

10     proceedings that has been introduced into evidence goes into detail about

11     your interviews of these individuals at that time.  Am I correct?

12        A.   The transcript of the Stakic case does -- I think, goes into --

13     is verbatim, the conversation with Dr. Stakic.  As I recall, there is --

14     yes, and there is some consideration of the Kovacevic interview as well.

15        Q.   Am I correct that you neglected to introduce yourself by your

16     real name to either Dr. Stakic or Dr. Kovacevic when you met and

17     interviewed them in February of 1996?

18        A.   Yes.  I was afraid to do so.

19        Q.   Did you give them a fake name?

20        A.   No.  I don't think I was asked for one.  It -- I -- I just said I

21     was from a newspaper.

22        Q.   Am I also correct that the meeting with Mr. Kovacevic was not

23     recorded on tape, as the 1992 meetings had been?

24        A.   No, it was myself and another print reporter from the

25     "New York Times."

Page 2704

 1        Q.   As far as the meeting with Dr. Kovacevic is concerned, am I

 2     correct that Kovacevic drank homemade Slivovitz brandy throughout the

 3     meeting?

 4        A.   Throughout most of it, yes.

 5        Q.   How long did that meeting last?

 6        A.   I would say about between an hour and an hour and a quarter.

 7        Q.   Did you --

 8        A.   I don't recall exactly.

 9        Q.   Did you drink alongside him or did you just symbolically take one

10     sip but not keep pace with him?

11        A.   I certainly didn't keep pace with him.  I had between a sip and a

12     quarter of a glass.

13        Q.   Would you agree with me Kovacevic consumed seven to eight shots

14     in that span of an hour or an hour and a quarter that included most of

15     the bottle?

16        A.   Something like that, yes.

17        Q.   And in the Stakic transcript, which, again, is Exhibit P199 in

18     these proceedings, at page 228 in e-court, which is the transcript page

19     T8125 from 17th September, 2002, you agreed that -- that Dr. Kovacevic

20     was at least -- at least was definitely was not sober but that you would

21     hesitate to call him intoxicated from the brandy at the time that you

22     questioned him.  Does that -- and we can wait for the page to come up, if

23     you'd like to -- and it's at page 228.  It should be near the bottom, I

24     believe.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  It's at lines 19 and following "not sober" at line

Page 2705

 1     22.

 2             MR. IVETIC:

 3        Q.   Okay.

 4        A.   He certainly wasn't sober.  He was coherent, however.  Admirably

 5     so.  It was an extremely interesting conversation during which he was

 6     estimably candid.  So he wasn't intoxicated inasmuch as he couldn't

 7     string a sentence together, but he certainly wasn't sober either.

 8        Q.   You tasted the brandy.  Was it potent?

 9        A.   That stuff usually is.

10        Q.   Am I correct that immediately after you completed the meetings

11     and interviews in February of 1996 with Drs. Kovacevic and Stakic, at

12     which time you did not advise them of your identity, you sent a CD with

13     your notes of these meetings to a Mr. Keegan whom you knew very well at

14     the Office of the Prosecutor of the ICTY Tribunal?

15        A.   I sent a memorandum and some notes to Mr. Keegan, who I didn't

16     know that well.

17        Q.   Well, I say you knew him because you met with him immediately

18     prior to going to Prijedor to interview these individuals without giving

19     your real name.

20        A.   I met with him before I went.  I can't remember how long before I

21     went it was, but it wasn't immediately.  And as I say, I didn't give my

22     name to them because I was scared.  I didn't have authority to be there

23     and these men didn't have any reason to particularly like me.

24        Q.   If I could try to refresh your recollection, sir, we have been

25     provided with a proofing -- excuse me, a statement, interview --

Page 2706

 1     interview information sheet evidencing that you were interviewed at the

 2     ICTY 16th January 1996.  Would that be immediately prior to going to

 3     Prijedor in February of 1996?

 4        A.   It's about a month before.  Because I remember the day after the

 5     interviews we got back to Zagreb and it was St. Valentine's day, so that

 6     would put it a month before.

 7        Q.   In fact, Mr. Keegan and the Prosecution at that time not only

 8     wanted you to be a witness, they wanted you to be one of their key

 9     experts to establish the element of widespread and systematic crimes by

10     Serbs including Drs. Kovacevic and Stakic; isn't that correct?

11        A.   I didn't know exactly that they were after Kovacevic and Stakic.

12     I was helping Mr. Keegan with the Tadic case.

13        Q.   And if I can focus on the chronology a little bit.  Am I correct

14     that you first met with the Office of the Prosecutor and with Mr. Keegan

15     personally on 18th April, 1995, in Washington at your office?

16        A.   I can't remember the date but it was in Washington, yeah.

17        Q.   And then you met with -- with the representatives of the ICTY

18     again, as you mention, in January, about one month before going to

19     Prijedor?

20        A.   Yes.  I think by then they were established here in The Hague.

21     I'm not sure they were in -- in the previous year.

22        Q.   At the time that you went to Prijedor in February of 1996 and

23     interviewed these gentlemen, Drs. Stakic and Kovacevic, did you at any

24     time identify yourself as someone who had met with the Prosecution for

25     purposes of preparing to be a Prosecution witness or perhaps an expert

Page 2707

 1     witness?

 2        A.   No, of course not.  I was preparing an article for the newspaper.

 3     Which I wrote and was published.

 4        Q.   Did you at any time advise either of these men of their rights as

 5     suspects of Tribunal investigation, including the right to be represented

 6     by counsel or the right to refuse to answer any of your questions?

 7        A.   No.  A journalist doesn't do that and I didn't, no.  I wanted to

 8     find out who they were and what they thought about all the things that

 9     we'd discussed that day when we I had met them and the things that had

10     emerged since then about Omarska, Trnopolje, and Keraterm.

11        Q.   Would you consider your conduct in interviewing them in

12     February 1996 under these conditions to be objective as a journalist?

13        A.   I considered it to be necessary to -- to -- to getting the story

14     in the extremity of the situation and given what, by then, I knew to be

15     the record of extreme violence in the area and in those camps, in

16     particular.  I wasn't any --

17        Q.   And I ask you again, would you consider your conduct in

18     interviewing them in February of 1996, without giving your real name,

19     without advising that you had been consulted twice to be an expert

20     witness for the Office of the Prosecution, would you consider that

21     conduct by yourself to be objective as a journalist?

22        A.   Yes.  I considered it the only way I was going to get them to

23     talk about what had happened in 1992, the last time we'd met.  I think if

24     I'd declared myself as the person they met in 1992, I may have been

25     arrested, I may well have been physically harmed or worse.

Page 2708

 1        Q.   Would you consider your actions to have been undertaken neutrally

 2     or were you being partial at the time?

 3        A.   Well, we're splicing the words again here.  I've already tried to

 4     explain to the Court that I think by this time I had followed up, to the

 5     best of my abilities, professionally the -- the -- the -- what -- that

 6     which had been hidden from us that day in August 1992.  We knew an awful

 7     lot more by the time I went back to talk to these men.  I thought it was

 8     certainly worthy and in the public interest to get their account of what

 9     they thought had been happening, and I think if I had declared who I was,

10     I would have, A, not heard their accounts; and probably put myself in

11     extreme danger.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vulliamy, this is not really an answer to the

13     question, I would think.  The question was whether the actions

14     undertaken, whether you considered them to be neutrally or you being

15     partial at the time.  And I did understand the question to say, well, if

16     you first meet with the Prosecution and then go to someone you had

17     interviewed earlier and further interview him, not telling that person

18     that you had been consulted by the Prosecution, whether that makes you,

19     in your own view, a partial person or whether you could still be neutral

20     under those circumstances.

21             Is that the question you had on your mind, Mr. Ivetic?

22             MR. IVETIC:  Absolutely, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So whether you had fear to, say, to present

24     yourself under your own name is a different matter compared to this one.

25             THE WITNESS:  I'm sorry, Your Honour.  Yes, I'll be more

Page 2709

 1     specific:  Objective, yes; neutral, not necessarily, no.

 2             MR. IVETIC:

 3        Q.   Did you consider that your interviews at this time were

 4     accomplishing a job that would be beneficial to the prosecution of these

 5     men before the Tribunal?

 6        A.   If it was, that was a secondary consideration.  I thought that

 7     what I was getting in those discussions was a -- it was extremely

 8     enlightening on the pressing matter of the worse violence in Europe for

 9     half a century, which is in the public interest.

10             MR. IVETIC:  If we can please call up 65 ter number 1D00236 in

11     e-court.

12        Q.   And while we're waiting for that, sir, this is a two-page

13     information report from the Prosecution relating to another meeting you

14     had with them, this time in 2001.  Do you recall having a meeting with

15     members of the staff of the Office of the Prosecutor of the Tribunal in

16     2001?

17        A.   I don't remember this specific meeting, but I do recognise the

18     name of the submitter as he is called at the top.  He did come to

19     interview me on a case, and I recognise some of the names below.  Not all

20     of them.

21        Q.   Well, let me put to you the subject matter of the meeting and see

22     if that refreshes your recollection of this meeting, and I'll start with

23     the first and second paragraphs.

24             "During a meeting with Mark Harmon Nicola Piecente and

25     Ulrich Musselmeyer, I was briefed by Mark Harmon to meet with

Page 2710

 1     Edward Vullimay and hand in a copy of the Plavsic-Krajisnik indictment

 2     and to request that he reads the document and gives consideration to ways

 3     that the defendants could be linked alleged crimes.  Harmon briefed me

 4     that Vulliamy may well have 'insider' knowledge that may assist us in

 5     showing the linkage.  He also may be able to identify persons with a

 6     closer political perspective who that Vulliamy could contact on our

 7     behalf with a view to assisting us.

 8             "When I met with Vulliamy, I handed him a copy of the indictment

 9     and worked through the document with him.  He discussed links that he

10     could establish between Karadzic, Koljevic, Plavsic, down to Milutinovic

11     and Arsic [sic] of the Banja Luka and Prijedor military respectively, and

12     down through Kovacevic, Stakic, Drljaca, and Mikic connected, he states,

13     to Omarska and Trnopolje."

14             And now, sir, I'll ask you:  Does this refresh your recollection

15     of a meeting that you had in 2001 with members of the Office of the

16     Prosecutor of this Tribunal?

17        A.   Can I see the date again --

18        Q.   Absolutely.

19        A.   -- at the top, sir?

20        Q.   It's at the top of the page.

21        A.   It's very soon after 9/11 in New York on which I worked a lot.  I

22     don't recall the specific meeting, and you'd have to ask Mr. Tait-Harris

23     about when and -- exactly when and where it was.

24        Q.   If I could --

25        A.   But he did come to New York.  I don't remember the other people

Page 2711

 1     being there.  I don't remember this.  I played no role in the -- the

 2     cases involving Mrs. Plavsic and Mr. Krajisnik.  Insider knowledge is his

 3     term, not mine.

 4        Q.   Sir, did you -- did you offer them --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I first try to avoid any confusion.

 6             You said you don't remember the others being there.  Now, if I

 7     read this document, and that's always the risk of looking at the document

 8     for the first time, it is that the author of the document met - that is,

 9     Jonathan Tait-Harris - met with Mark Harmon, Nicola Piecente, and

10     Ulrich Musselmeyer, and that he subsequently - he, as far as I read

11     here - alone met with Mr. Vulliamy where he gives no date for that

12     meeting, so if it would have been the --

13             MR. IVETIC:  It would have been prior to this document, I would

14     imagine.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So, therefore it seems that perhaps having had

16     only a glance to the document, you may have been confused as to with whom

17     you are supposed to have met.  Apart from where.

18             MR. IVETIC:

19        Q.   And that's why I said in 2001, because I don't know the exact

20     date when would you have met with this gentleman.

21        A.   Thank you, Your Honour.  Yes.  Rereading it, I see too that

22     that's what's happening.  Certainly I'm not having anything to do with

23     The Hague at this time of 2001.  At late in November.

24             But, yes, I did meet with Mr. Tait-Harris in New York but not

25     these other people regarding these cases or this matter.

Page 2712

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, you say it was soon after 9/11.  The date

 2     of this document is 5/11/2001.  We always have to be very careful whether

 3     it's the 11th of May, or the 5th of November, but both not -- well, soon

 4     after 9/11 could be, if you make "soon" two months, but it could have

 5     also been before.  I do not know what notation of dates is used.

 6             But I do understand that you now have a recollection of having

 7     met Mr. Tait-Harris?

 8             THE WITNESS:  Yes, I do.  Yes, I do.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And was that before or after 9/11, or don't

10     you remember?

11             THE WITNESS:  I think it was before.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Which would then put this in --

13             THE WITNESS:  In fact I'm pretty sure it was before.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Which would then put this in May rather than in

15     November.  At least --

16             THE WITNESS:  I believe the American dates, yes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  At least if the date of the document follows the

18     meeting soon.  I do not know how much time Mr. Tait-Harris may have taken

19     to author this information report.

20             Let's try by carefully reading every single letter to avoid

21     misunderstandings.

22             MR. IVETIC:  I think can I clarify things easily, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, if you can.  Until now, at least, the

24     witness was confused.  That's for sure.  About with whom he was supposed

25     to have met.

Page 2713

 1             THE WITNESS:  Your Honours, I met with Mr. Tait-Harris in

 2     New York.  I don't recall much about that meeting.  And the others I

 3     didn't meet in the same room at all.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

 5             MR. IVETIC:

 6        Q.   Sir, with regard to this meeting that you say was in -- that you

 7     say was in May, you also had another meeting in November 2011 with the

 8     Office of the Prosecutor, didn't you?

 9        A.   Do tell me?  I don't know.  November 2000 and?

10        Q.   11.

11        A.   11.

12        Q.   You testified in the Karadzic case at 9 November 2011.

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   You were briefed -- or you were proofed by the Office of the

15     Prosecutor on 7th/11 --  7th of November, 2011, does that refresh you

16     recollection?

17        A.   Almost certainly, yes.

18        Q.   Now, if we can get back to this document, sir.  Did you in fact

19     provide advice or strategy to the Office of the Prosecutor --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I just stop you again.  I think the name of

21     the case which you mentioned in which the witness was proofed, I take it

22     due to quick speaking, is missing in the transcript.

23             MR. IVETIC:  I apologise.  That would be the Karadzic

24     proceedings.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  The Karadzic proceedings in --

Page 2714

 1             MR. IVETIC:  11th November, 2011.  That would have been case

 2     number --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  It was 2011.

 4             MR. IVETIC:  2011, correct.  And the proofing was the 7th of

 5     November 2011.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's clear and it's also clear now in what

 7     context Mr. Vulliamy met.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  And now --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers]... there was confusion

10     because apparently the witness understood it to be November 2000 but it's

11     clear now that it was 2011.

12             Please proceed.

13             MR. IVETIC:

14        Q.   And now just to be absolutely clear, my questions are relating to

15     the -- what we've established now as the May 11th meeting with

16     Mr. Jonathan Tait-Harris.

17             Did you in fact at that time provide advice on strategy to the

18     Office of the Prosecution on how to prosecute Serb defendants?

19        A.   I have been called in a number of trials and have testified to

20     the Office of the Prosecutor what I know.  I was not called in either the

21     trial of Mrs. Plavsic or Mr. Krajisnik.  This term "insider knowledge" is

22     Mr. Tait-Harris's.  I'm not aware that I had any or have any regarding

23     Plavsic and Krajisnik, and if I had, they didn't see it as of any use to

24     them because I wasn't called in those cases.

25        Q.   Well, let me ask you this, sir:  Was there -- did the Office of

Page 2715

 1     the Prosecutor of the ICTY Tribunal have a case against Milutinovic,

 2     Arsic, or Mikic, or are those names that you suggested and provided

 3     advice on how to link them to crimes?

 4        A.   I don't know whether they this cases against those people, and I

 5     wasn't offering names for perspective indictments.  Certainly not, sir.

 6     I work for a newspaper.  Not for -- not for this Tribunal.  I testified

 7     at this Tribunal.

 8        Q.   So is it your testimony that Mr. Jonathan Tait-Harris is

 9     untruthful when he is saying here:

10             "He discussed links that he could establish between Karadzic,

11     Koljevic, Plavsic, down to Milutinovic and Arsic [sic] of the Banja Luka

12     and Prijedor military respectively, and down through Kovacevic, Stakic,

13     Drljaca, and Mikic, connected, he states, to Omarska and Trnopolje."

14             JUDGE ORIE:  I would like to intervene at this moment.

15     Discussing links does not tell us who first mentioned the names.  And

16     you're putting to Mr. Vulliamy that Mr. Jonathan Tait-Harris is

17     untruthful when he says he discussed links.  The issue that was raised in

18     the present examination of Mr. Vulliamy was:  Did you give him the names

19     or did he suggest the names to you.  That's at least how I understood it.

20             If I misunderstood, please clarify, Mr. Ivetic, together with the

21     witness.  But I think the suggestion that by saying "he discussed," that

22     it also means that he came up with the names seems not to be automatic

23     and logically compelling.

24             Please proceed.

25             MR. IVETIC:

Page 2716

 1        Q.   Sir, prior to this time you had met with the Office of the

 2     Prosecutor twice, in April of 1995 and in January of 1996.  At that time,

 3     they had discussed using you as an expert witness to prove widespread and

 4     systematic behaviour that could be linked to crimes.  Is that accurate?

 5        A.   No.  I had been called as a witness, I think, in 1998 as well, so

 6     I'd met with them more than twice, between -- before the date of this

 7     memorandum.  And I had been called in, I think, the case of Mr. Kovacevic

 8     which, to the best of my recollection, was 1998.  And all these names

 9     would have been in my notebook, in my evidence, in the case of Dusko

10     Tadic and the case of Mr. Kovacevic, Dr. Kovacevic, and perhaps,

11     Your Honours, I could, as it were, resolve this matter by saying that's

12     where the matters came from.  They were in evidence.  They were out there

13     anyway and in my notes.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  You are still with the last question, whereas

15     Mr. Ivetic expected an answer to his next question:  Whether, in those

16     first meetings, April 1995, January 1996, whether the Office of the

17     Prosecution had discussed with you to use you as an expert witness to

18     prove widespread and systematic behaviour that could be linked to crimes.

19     So it's the subject of the discussions in 1995/1996.

20             THE WITNESS:  I wasn't being asked to -- to discuss any -- any --

21     any links - his word - or any insider knowledge - his word.  When I'm

22     called by the Office of the Prosecution, I -- I give my evidence.  I -- I

23     don't understand, actually, what I'm being asked.  I'm sorry.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, then I'll repeat it to you.

25             What Mr. Ivetic asked you is the following:  When you met in

Page 2717

 1     April of 1995 and January 1996, and what was the subject matter of the

 2     discussion?  Did that include a possible role for you as an expert

 3     witness?  I leave it to that at the moment.  Was that discussed?

 4             THE WITNESS:  April 1995, if that's when it was, I can't

 5     remember.  Oh, sorry.  April 1995.  Yes.  It was to discuss my role as an

 6     expert witness in the Tadic case.  Sorry.  January 1996, likewise.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And your expertise or your testimony would be

 8     about the widespread and systematic behaviour of -- that you had

 9     observed.  Is that --

10             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  I was asked to give an impression -- to give

11     my overview of the entire war and the visit to the camps we have been

12     discussing today and yesterday for -- to the Tadic Chamber.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, please proceed.

14             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

15        Q.   If we can return to this document that's still on the screen,

16     sir.  If I can ask you about, did the Office of the Prosecutor, as is

17     reflected here, and I'll read -- well, let me read what

18     Mr. Jonathan Tait-Harris has written so we are clear.

19             In the first paragraph, which again is talking about his

20     discussions or preparations prior to meeting with you, he says:

21             "He also may be able to identify persons with a closer political

22     perspective who that Vulliamy could contact on our behalf with a view to

23     assisting us."

24             Did the Office of the Prosecutor ask you to contact persons on

25     their behalf to assist them in prosecuting Serbs?

Page 2718

 1        A.   Not that I recall.  And if they did, I didn't.  Because I wasn't

 2     in a position to contact people on their behalf, nor do I contact people

 3     on their behalf.

 4        Q.   If we could turn to the second page of this document, the second

 5     paragraph from the top.

 6             "With regards to forcible transfer, he recommended the use of his

 7     colleague Ian Traynor, of 'The Guardian' newspaper, who was well-informed

 8     on these matters."

 9             Did you provide or recommend the use of your colleague Ian

10     Traynor of "The Guardian" newspaper for the Office of the Prosecutor to

11     assist them to prosecute Serbs?

12        A.   I may well have put them on to Ian, yes, because he did a lot of

13     work on Kozarac and around that time and area, but he is not a Bosnian

14     Serb.  He is a colleague.

15        Q.   I don't know where the Bosnian Serb comes in from, sir, but I did

16     not intend to imply that.

17        A.   In the previous --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  It may be that it was misunderstood.  The question

19     was "did you," but I don't think whether you said "recognise," or "would

20     you," maybe "did you recommend" --

21             MR. IVETIC:  Recommend, I think.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  -- "the use of your colleague for the Office of the

23     Prosecutor to assist to prosecute Serbs."  That may have been

24     misunderstood, that last portion, and may have caused the confusion.  I

25     think the witness has answered your question.

Page 2719

 1             The question, however, was composite.  It was first a

 2     recommendation to use a person; and the second part of the question was,

 3     whether this was for the purpose of prosecuting Serbs.

 4             When you may have mentioned the name of your colleague, was it in

 5     the context of assisting the Prosecution to prepare Prosecutions of

 6     Serbs?

 7             THE WITNESS:  It -- it would only have been that, yes.  Maybe

 8     Mr. Traynor knew something I didn't.  I can't actually remember which

 9     case we were discussing at this point with Mr. Tait-Harris.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So when you gave that information, you thought

11     that Mr. Traynor would have available information which might assist the

12     Prosecution in their intended prosecutions, which you understood to be

13     prosecution of Serbs at that time?

14             THE WITNESS:  Probably, Your Honour, yes.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers]

16             THE WITNESS:  It may be that I was asked a question I didn't know

17     the answer to or something like that.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, I hope I assisted you.

19             MR. IVETIC:  You have, Your Honours.

20        Q.   If we can look at the last paragraph of this document which is

21     already on the screen, the part that I wanted at the beginning.

22     Mr. Jonathan Tait-Harris says:

23             "The indictment was left with Vulliamy to allow him to give it

24     further consideration.  I asked him if he was able to provide any

25     information concerning events in Sarajevo.  He stated he could give

Page 2720

 1     general information available from a number of sources, such as random

 2     shelling, shootings, and the terrorising of the population."

 3             And that's the end of the quote I'd like to ask you about.

 4             Is it true that you offered information from many sources to the

 5     Office of the Prosecutor relating to Sarajevo?

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  At least a number of sources.

 7             MR. IVETIC:  A number of sources.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  That's what you wanted to say.

 9             MR. IVETIC:  I apologise, yes.

10             THE WITNESS:  Ah, so we're discussing Sarajevo at this point.

11             I don't remember.  It's best to ask Mr. Tait-Harris.  I don't

12     remember offering, sort of general sources.  I see that I'm -- I -- I do

13     give him an account of the Dobrinja water line shelling which I was a

14     witness to, or at least the immediate aftermath of.  But I don't recall

15     giving him a list or -- or anything.  I don't actually recall reading the

16     indictment, I regret to say.

17             MR. IVETIC:

18        Q.   Thank you, sir.

19             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I would tender this document,

20     65 ter number 1D00236 as an exhibit.

21             MS. BIBLES:  No objection, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D236 becomes Exhibit D45, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  D45 the document is admitted into evidence.

25                           [Defence counsel confer]

Page 2721

 1             MR. IVETIC:

 2        Q.   Sir, I thank you for your answers to my questions today.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  I have no further questions for this witness,

 4     Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 6             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, sir.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Judge Moloto would have a question for you.

 9                           Questioned by the Court:

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Vulliamy, this morning you were asked

11     questions about Trnopolje, and in one of your answers you said that it

12     was a confused and confusing place and that you -- you -- there were

13     areas which were not fenced in and there were others which were fenced

14     in.

15             What I would like to ask you is:  Did you get an opportunity to

16     visit all the parts of Trnopolje, including the fenced-in parts?

17        A.   Thank you, Your Honour.  Yes.  We did get the opportunity to tour

18     the not -- not fenced in or partially fenced bits of the camp which are

19     to the side where the buildings were essentially.  And here was this --

20     and I'm sorry to put it in such vague language, this mixture of people

21     with a mixture of reasons for being there, as I tried to establish.  Some

22     in flight, some corralled on buses.  Others had come of their own accord.

23     We did not get to be inside the fenced-in compound that you can see us

24     filming through the fence into, if that's clear.

25             There's this bit which has fencing on three sides, one of which

Page 2722

 1     is the barbed wire fence, with a wall at the back.  That's the compound

 2     under guard and fenced off where the men had come that morning, we

 3     understood, from Keraterm.  And we were not -- we were not permitted to

 4     go inside that area, but we were able to move and talk -- sometimes with

 5     the guards following us, sometimes not, in the area which was not fenced

 6     off or partially fenced off around the buildings.  Does that help?

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Apart from those two parts, the partially fenced

 8     in and the one that is fenced in with barbed wire, were you aware of any

 9     other parts of the camp?

10        A.   Oh.  I mean, I didn't know then and I don't know now whether we

11     saw, you know, every corner of it, to be honest.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You know you haven't seen every corner of it.  You

13     have just told us you didn't have permission to get into the barbed wire,

14     sir.

15        A.   Oh, I see.  No, no --

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm asking you were you aware of any other part of

17     the camp other than these two parts?

18        A.   Not at the time, no.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  At this now -- at this moment now, are you aware?

20        A.   I think there were some rooms which had been mentioned during

21     this work I've been doing for the new book where there were -- there were

22     -- the places that have been mentioned where beatings and violations took

23     place that I now know I did not visit in 1992, yes.  I mean, I now know

24     that we didn't see all -- all of the camp.  I now know that we didn't see

25     all of the camp that -- of the -- of the buildings.  We didn't go into

Page 2723

 1     all the rooms, no.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Were you told anything about the purpose or

 3     purposes of those parts of the camp that you didn't visit?

 4        A.   Not at the time, no.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Were you given the purpose of those parts later?

 6        A.   Yes.  I mean, I've gone over this in some detail and at length

 7     with many of the survivors and the people who were in the camp, the

 8     former internees.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And what were the purposes of those other parts?

10        A.   Some of the rooms I believe were used for the violation of girls

11     and women, and there were rooms which were used for beating prisoners,

12     including the one or two that we -- of which we were given the

13     photographs on the day, and that is in -- in research that I've done

14     during the 20 years since and others can testify who were actually in

15     them if they are called in this trial.

16             But I -- I have been told about places in Trnopolje where the

17     violations and the beatings took place, but we didn't visit on the day,

18     yes, since, but those are places that I did not know about when we went

19     in.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I thank you very much, Mr. Vulliamy.

21        A.   Thank you, sir.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Judge.

23        A.   Thank you, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  If you would just give me one second.

25             Judge Fluegge has a question for you as well.

Page 2724

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vulliamy, we heard in the video and during

 2     your examination that some of the detainees were allowed to go to

 3     surrounding villages to get some food.

 4             Did anybody tell you that it was possible to leave the camp and

 5     to go somewhere else, despite these cases of gathering food in the

 6     surrounding villages; for instance, to go back to their homes or to other

 7     places in the former Yugoslavia or elsewhere.

 8        A.   Thank you, Your Honour.  Again, it's a bit -- it's -- it's quite

 9     a complicated answer, if you'll forgive me.  Yes, I have spoken to people

10     who were able to go foraging for food in the village of Trnopolje, most

11     of the Muslims and very few Croats in that village having been forced to

12     leave their homes, they were empty, and people could go back to -- to get

13     food out of them.  The doctor and vet that I've mentioned also went round

14     the houses looking for medicines, basic aspirin, and so on.

15             I've never met anyone who escaped from Trnopolje, as it were, who

16     made the run, which I think you've asked about.  But people were able to

17     make, as it were, authorised visits back to their villages.  I've

18     interviewed at great length the vet on a number of occasions over the

19     years, and she was able to, for instance, go back to Kozarac to pick up

20     people who had been left after the shelling.  She refers in particular to

21     a blind old man, to a badly disabled old lady who actually was dead by

22     the time they got there.

23             So there is movement, but I've never met anyone who told me that

24     they'd, as it were, left the camp, got away, gone home, and made it to

25     Croatia on their own in safety.

Page 2725

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Do I understand you correctly that those who were

 2     permitted to go to their homes or other places in the surrounding

 3     villages to get some food or medicine, that they all had to come back to

 4     Trnopolje?

 5        A.   It's my very strong impression that if they didn't they'd be in

 6     trouble of some kind.  And it's also -- it was my impression on the day

 7     that we visited - and confirmed since - that it would have been extremely

 8     dangerous for them to have been moving unauthorised across country as

 9     a -- as a -- as it were, if you like, an ex-detainee of Trnopolje.  That

10     if they did, they would be likely to be apprehended and shot.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you for your answers.

12             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  I have a few questions for you as well.

14             My first question is directly related to the questions

15     Judge Fluegge asked you.

16             In Trnopolje, as I understand, there were men, there were women,

17     there were children.  Now, those who were allowed to go back to their

18     homes, could that be men, possibly a wife which was with them, if there

19     were any families, as such, and the children, so that the whole of the

20     family could return to their home to get food?

21             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.  They were and would have been.

22     Some food was able to be delivered as people arrived progressively while

23     others had stayed at home, but again, just to -- to continue my answer

24     to -- to Justice Fluegge.  The -- I mean, there was a case which I've

25     interviewed and reported of somebody who decided to go home, having been

Page 2726

 1     released from Keraterm to Trnopolje, went home to join his family in the

 2     house and they were all murdered.  And so --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 4        A.   All of them.  So, yes, but it was extremely dangerous of them --

 5     for them to go home.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  My question was that were there families, that is,

 7     husband, wife, and children, detained in Trnopolje.

 8        A.   Oh yes.  Yes.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

10        A.   In their entirely -- in their entirety.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  If someone was allowed to go home, a man, for

12     example, or a woman, would that person be allowed to take his wife or her

13     husband and the children and to go home all together, or would one member

14     of the family be allowed to go home or do you have any information about

15     that?

16        A.   I don't know.  But it's possible.  And I don't know of any family

17     that did, as it were, you know, leave in its entirety to go home.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  So you say you cannot confirm neither deny that

19     this -- that whole families [Overlapping speakers] --

20        A.   No, no, I can't.  No.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then I have one question, also a follow-up

22     question to the questions put to you by Judge Moloto.

23             Judge Moloto asked you whether there were other parts, and then

24     you described that you had had no access to the buildings, on the basis

25     of adjudicated facts, this Chamber accepts without further evidence that

Page 2727

 1     among the buildings was a school, a two-storey school, and a building

 2     which was known as the -- as a -- the Dom, including a theatre, kind of a

 3     community building.

 4             When you said you had no access to rooms, are you referring to

 5     rooms in those buildings, or were they elsewhere?

 6        A.   I don't know, sir.  Your Honour, the -- the -- yes, I agree there

 7     were these two principal buildings, the school and the Dom cultural

 8     centre, community, whatever.  I have since taken interviews with people

 9     about specific rooms in which women and girls were reportedly violated

10     and there were reportedly beatings and killings.  I did not get into

11     wherever those rooms were.  There was no sign, as I've testified and

12     written, of any blood on walls or anything that I could see.  Until we

13     got the photographs that we were given that day.

14             So it's difficult to answer the question exactly.  There were

15     clearly places that we didn't get to that I now know about, but we

16     weren't, you know, hindered in our movements.  And I don't know whether

17     those rooms were in those two buildings or not.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Were there other buildings part of the Trnopolje

19     camp?

20        A.   I don't know whether the rooms in which these episodes were said

21     to have taken place were in those two buildings or in other buildings.

22     There might have been places upstairs that we didn't get to.  I didn't go

23     up any stairs, for instance.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  If you say "other buildings," does that mean that

25     other buildings were part of Trnopolje camp apart from the two main

Page 2728

 1     buildings, that there were more buildings which belonged to what you

 2     describe as the camp?

 3        A.   So far as I know, to the best of my knowledge, the two buildings

 4     that you've described were the -- the main, as it were, built structures

 5     of the camp.  But some -- or at least one of the violations that I've

 6     been told about took place, for instance, in an adjoining house.  So one

 7     isn't quite sure where the frontier is, if you like.  Sorry.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Finally, you have described the secluded part,

 9     fenced in the -- partly or not fenced in part.  Was it clear where the

10     boundaries of the camp were in general, and how would you know?  If it's

11     not fenced in...

12        A.   Right, yes, exactly.  Thank you, Your Honour.  Because with

13     regard to the half of the camp that was fenced or partly fenced around

14     the buildings, it was hard to judge where the boundary was.

15     Particularly, as we've established, people could go scavenging for food,

16     and there were violations, I now understand, in the house and adjoining.

17     Very differently was that compound where the men had arrived from

18     Keraterm.  That was up against a wall on the side of the camp as we

19     approached it from, I -- I'll work out -- I'll work out the direction if

20     I think about a map.  But that was a wall and three sides fencing, one of

21     which was the barbed wire, and of that bit, of course, the compound was

22     very clearly defined by the fencing and the guards around it and the

23     wall.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for those answers.

25        A.   Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 2729

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bibles, any need to re-examine the witness?

 2             MS. BIBLES:  Yes, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.  Let's have a look at the time.  We

 4     are close to one hour.  Would it be better to take the break now?

 5             MS. BIBLES:  That would probably be the best idea, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I would request the usher to escort the witness

 7     out of the courtroom.  We'd like to see you back in 20 minutes.

 8             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.

 9                           [The witness withdrew]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  We take a break.  And we resume at five minutes past

11     midday.

12                           --- Recess taken at 11.46 a.m.

13                           --- On resuming at 12.13 p.m.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16                           [The witness takes the stand]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bibles, could you inform us as to the time you

18     would need.

19             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honours, my best estimate is about maybe 30

20     minutes at the max.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vulliamy, you'll now be re-examined by

22     Ms. Bibles.

23             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bibles, you may proceed.

25             MS. BIBLES:  Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 2730

 1                           Re-examination by Ms. Bibles:

 2        Q.   Mr. Vulliamy, on cross-examination, you were asked a series of

 3     questions regarding an incident which occurred on the way to Omarska

 4     involving gun-fire.  Do you recall that line of questions?

 5        A.   Yes, I do.

 6             MS. BIBLES:  And, Your Honours, I believe in the transcript it

 7     was pages 2621 through 2637.

 8        Q.   Mr. Vulliamy, you were a shown a video which purported to depict

 9     the sounds of gun-fire.  Do you recall that?

10        A.   Yes.

11             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honours, we're now going to play two

12     video-clips, first D43 which was introduced yesterday by Defence counsel.

13     And like Defence counsel, we will be focussed on the ambient sounds.  We

14     will then play a segment from 65 ter 22615A.

15        Q.   Mr. Vulliamy, I will ask Ms. Stewart first to play D43, and then

16     to play 65 ter 22615A.  I would ask you to listen very closely to the

17     ambient sounds, not necessarily any words that might be on there.  And

18     for that, reason, Your Honours, I don't believe we need any translation.

19             In the first clip, I particularly ask you to listen for sounds of

20     gun-fire.  After we've played both clips, I have some questions that I'm

21     going to ask you.

22        A.   Thank you, ma'am.

23             MS. BIBLES:  Ms. Stewart, for --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  D43 is still MFI'd, at this moment, but, of course,

25     still can be played.  And apparently, since we're supposed to ignore any

Page 2731

 1     spoken words, I suggest that we close our ears, apart from any fire

 2     exchanges, and that we do not need transcription or translation of any

 3     words spoken.

 4             And therefore we can play the video once.

 5             MS. BIBLES:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 6             I will ask Ms. Stewart to play D43, please.

 7                           [Video-clip played]

 8             MS. BIBLES:  I'll now ask Ms. Stewart to play 65 ter 22615A.

 9                           [Video-clip played]

10             MS. BIBLES:

11        Q.   Mr. Vulliamy, were you present for the events that are visually

12     depicted in both video-clips?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Could you tell us where you were located in the vehicles that

15     we've seen in the video?

16        A.   I was in the same vehicle as Penny Marshall, the lady in the pink

17     shirt, I think, the blonde lady, but I'm still sitting in the vehicle.

18        Q.   And could you tell us, first, for the transcript record, could

19     you please articulate a comparison of the two visual representations that

20     we just saw?

21        A.   They are of if not exactly the same scene more or less the same

22     scene.  One is obviously much more used than the other one.  The first

23     one is -- has been transferred from tape to tape and is of lower quality,

24     obviously.

25        Q.   And in the first tape, D43, could you describe for the record the

Page 2732

 1     ambient sounds towards the end of the clip?

 2        A.   Yes.  As I testified, I think, yesterday, on that clip, I can

 3     hear rapid and frequent fire quite like a battle, and as I testified

 4     yesterday a deep explosion from what sounded to me like heavy artillery.

 5        Q.   With --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I just ask you, were you describing the whole

 7     of the clip or as you were asked to do only the end of the clip.

 8             THE WITNESS:  Oh, sorry, sir.  I think towards the end of the

 9     clip there is a rapid -- there is some rapid heavy fire, and then at the

10     end of the clip -- towards the very end of the clip there's a deep

11     explosion.  Yes.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So the deep explosion is the part of the clip

13     you were asked about.

14             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

16             Please proceed.

17             MS. BIBLES:

18        Q.   At the time that you were there on 5th of August, 1992, did you

19     hear anything like the sounds that are reflected on D43?

20        A.   No, ma'am.  I heard as I think I testified yesterday, sporadic

21     rifle fire.  But nothing of that depth or -- or ordnance.

22        Q.   And then for the transcript record, could you describe the audio

23     that you heard in the second clip from 65 ter 22615A.

24        A.   The incident is fairly much over by then.  If there is one shot,

25     there is no more than one.

Page 2733

 1        Q.   And what is the predominant sound that we could here in the

 2     second clip?

 3        A.   Well, there's not much.  I think there's an engine starting up or

 4     left running, as I recall.

 5        Q.   And is that consistent with your recollection of the sounds that

 6     you hard at that time?

 7        A.   I can't remember the sounds of the car at the time I'm afraid.

 8        Q.   Could you tell us, then, which of these videos accurately depicts

 9     the ambient sounds of the scene as you recall them?

10        A.   To the best of my recollection, the second one.

11             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honours, the Prosecution tenders 65 ter 22615A,

12     and I can identify that this was -- or it is identified as coming from

13     Serb Sarajevo television.  It was disclosed on 10th February 2012 on a

14     hard disc.  And the spreadsheet indexed to that disclosure bundle

15     indicated that this video is connected to Ed Vullimay as a witness.

16                           [Defence counsel confer]

17             MR. IVETIC:  No objection, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.

19             Then, Madam Registrar, the second video, I take it that the

20     surrogate sheet has been uploaded.  Yes.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 22615A becomes Exhibit P202,

22     Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  P202 is admitted into evidence.

24             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honours, I would now like to play a segment as

25     the Court had requested yesterday, 65 ter 22564A.  The Chamber asked

Page 2734

 1     yesterday to look into whether or not a particular clip that was played

 2     as D263 had sound.  The portions of that are -- the portion that was

 3     played is from an original compilation from the Tadic trial.  We were

 4     able to find an original VHS in evidence and we have digitalised that.

 5     There is some sound on it.  And for the matter of clarity, I would like

 6     to play that.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  At the same time, I would like to invite the

 8     parties to see, because we'll have to carefully compare the two videos we

 9     have seen before, to see whether they can agree on whether certain

10     portions of what is shown depict the same event by carefully comparing

11     who moves, where, with what movement as far as body is concerned, or

12     arms, so as to be assisted by the parties on whether there are, if not

13     all, portions of the two videos where what is depicted is the identical

14     moment an event so that it will be able to compare whether there's any

15     difference in the sounds heard at this moment.

16             Of course, the Chamber will also try to do its utmost best, but

17     certainly would be assisted by the parties agreeing on -- if -- if

18     there's a basis for agreement.

19             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honours, the position of the Prosecutor is that

20     these two clips, D43 and I believe it's now P202, were identical footage

21     from the same camera with different -- one being the original raw footage

22     which is P202 and D43 having an audio track added on.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That is not exactly what I was seeking at this

24     moment.  But this is -- well, finally, if you agree on that we see is the

25     same, of course, then the Chamber can compare what it hears.

Page 2735

 1             MR. IVETIC:  Except that the -- this clip was from Serb TV

 2     Sarajevo -- Serb TV Sarajevo and the other one was from RTS, so I don't

 3     know yet, Your Honours, I have to --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Well --

 5             MR. IVETIC:  It looks to be similar shots, but I'm asking for the

 6     original tape from the provider of D43 to see if I can add more

 7     information.  But visually the parts that are seen look the same, but I'm

 8     not -- I'm not able to say whether one is the original or one -- the raw

 9     footage.  Raw footage is a very specific term.  If it's broadcast, it's

10     not raw.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm not talking about which one is the original.

12     What I'm seeking is that the two be compared and whoever broadcasted it,

13     if the pictures are exactly the same, that means the same point of

14     camera, the same movements of persons, then you can say since you cannot

15     have two cameras before one eye, that most likely that comes from one

16     camera and therefore is the same footage.  Whoever may have worked on it,

17     sound, et cetera, that is what the Chamber is seeking you to think about,

18     whether what you see, and Ms. Bibles apparently has made up her mind on

19     the matter already, but you also can agree.  You cannot agree on your

20     own, Ms. Bibles.  You only can agree together with the Defence so that

21     the Chamber is assisted in further analysing what exactly the potential

22     issues are in relation to this video.

23             Please proceed.

24             MS. BIBLES:  Thank you, Your Honours.

25             I'll ask Ms. Stewart now to play 65 ter 22564A.

Page 2736

 1        Q.   And, Mr. Vulliamy, I would ask you to --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic, take your earphones off and lower your

 3     voice.

 4             Yes, please proceed.

 5                           [Defence counsel confer]

 6                           [Video-clip played]

 7             MS. BIBLES:  Thank you.

 8        Q.   Mr. Vulliamy, did you hear in that clip any of the large loud

 9     shelling that we heard in D43?

10        A.   No.

11             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honours, I would at this time proffer or tender

12     65 ter 22564A.

13             MR. IVETIC:  No objection.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 22564A becomes Exhibit P203,

16     Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  P203 is admitted into evidence.

18             By the way, Ms. Bibles, I don't think that the witness used the

19     word "shelling."  He was talking about sound -- noises.  But that's my

20     recollection.  I stand corrected if I made a mistake.

21             MS. BIBLES:  Well, Your Honours, and I -- the Court may have seen

22     me pause as I tried to grab the exact phrase myself, so I may have been

23     incorrect.

24        Q.   Mr. Vulliamy, going back to this event in your mind, what was

25     your impression at the time of the purpose of this event?  You've ...

Page 2737

 1        A.   It was hard to tell exactly, but we were under the impression

 2     they didn't really want us -- that the committee in Prijedor didn't

 3     really want us to go to go to Omarska.  Indeed, they told us they'd

 4     rather we didn't go.  But they were under Dr. Karadzic's orders, and as I

 5     think I testified, I was unconvinced by the nature of the supposed attack

 6     or exchange of fire.  I think I testified that the shooting, such as it

 7     was, was going over our heads and the return fire was high.  And men

 8     were -- they were, as we saw, scampering around, but they weren't diving

 9     for cover as one would if there was the kind of fire-fight going on for

10     real.  So I was unconvinced.  I'm uncertain about this, but I think it

11     was probably some kind of prank to dissuade us.  But, as it turned out,

12     we proceeded.

13        Q.   I'd like to next turn to some questions you were asked on

14     cross-examination with respect to white sheets or white flags.

15             MS. BIBLES:  And Your Honours, I believe this line of questioning

16     began at 2649, lines 18 to 14.

17             You were asked about passing villages with white towels or flags

18     hanging from the structures.  Based on the interviews which you've

19     conducted regarding people who put up the white sheets or the white

20     towels, what is your understanding as to the choices that they truly

21     faced in 1992.

22        A.   That they could put up the white flags and accept that they would

23     have to hand over their properties, leave - and it turned out to be via

24     Trnopolje for enforced deportation - or face consequences as had been

25     meted to other places like Kozarac, that their houses would be flattened

Page 2738

 1     and that they would, like many others, be killed.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  2649, Ms. Bibles, is?  Is that today or yesterday's

 3     transcript?  It couldn't be today's transcript.

 4             MS. BIBLES:  It was yesterday's transcript, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I'm afraid that I have not yet the -- but I'll

 6     find it.  Thank you.  We have -- I still have the old version.

 7             MS. BIBLES:  Would you like me to proceed?

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, yes.  I said I'll find it.

 9             MS. BIBLES:

10        Q.   You were asked about the description that you had given in your

11     article of 7 August 1992 describing that Trnopolje was not a

12     concentration camp.  Do you recall that line of questions?

13        A.   Yes, ma'am.

14        Q.   And in your answer, you partially explained that your opinion

15     regarding this conclusion changed during the convoy to Travnik.

16             MS. BIBLES:  And Your Honours, this was yesterday at 2666 I

17     believe at lines 18 to 19, although that's -- those are the numbers that

18     I have.

19        Q.   Could you please tell us about the experience, what experience in

20     the convoy changed your opinion about Trnopolje?

21        A.   Although most of the people in the convoy had come from

22     Sanski Most, there was a busload from Trnopolje, and the -- when we

23     arrived Travnik, I realised the scale of what was happening and the

24     regularity with which it was happening, that we were just one night among

25     many, indeed every night, and the ferocity of what was happening because,

Page 2739

 1     as I ascertained quite soon afterwards, there had been a massacre four

 2     nights after our convoy on Mount Vlasic, known to this Tribunal as the

 3     Vlasic massacre.

 4             So in terms of Trnopolje, and its role, and the term

 5     "concentration camp" which I think I testified yesterday, I wanted to

 6     relate more to its South African origins than to the Third Reich, one

 7     realised -- at least I realised, directly, that the combination of the

 8     scale of these convoys of the enforced deportations, the regularity of

 9     them, every night, the numbers involved as were amassing in Travnik,

10     something like 36.000 by the time we'd arrived and upon my return this

11     got up into a -- into a much higher figures.  Towards six figures.  That

12     Trnopolje was a kind of hub, a focal point for the internment of these

13     people, civilians, family, children, old people - and there's no

14     distinction here - for enforced deportations on convoys of the kind that

15     I was on.

16             I've testified in the evidence before about what it was like to

17     be on that convoy.  I don't need to take your time now with how

18     terrifying it was.  It was old people, children, someone in a wheelchair

19     going over the rocks in the road, for instance, and it became quickly

20     clear soon afterwards that Trnopolje was the focal point, the hub, the

21     point of departure for the vast majority or -- not the vast but the

22     majority of people in this systematic enforced deportation either that

23     camp or directly, as in the case of those from Sanski Most, from their

24     homes.

25             So it was the experience of the convoy, the arrival in Travnik,

Page 2740

 1     subsequent visits to Travnik, and over the past 20 years very extensive

 2     interviews with people with who have shared that road that this was the

 3     purpose or one of the purposes of Trnopolje, as we also know many were

 4     killed, raped, or beaten while they were there.

 5        Q.   And in the same vein, based on all of the experiences and work

 6     that you've just described, do you have an understanding as to what

 7     choices were available in 1992 to members of non- -- or to non-Serb

 8     leaders and professionals in those communities?

 9        A.   We got a glimpse of this on the day, on the 5th of August, when

10     it became clear that the leaders of opposition parties were in Omarska.

11     We were introduced to the leader of the SDA, which was a pro-Muslim

12     party.  And I've -- it became quite quickly clear that members of, if I

13     like, the intelligentsia, the political leadership, the local elite, were

14     quickly earmarked for persecution, death, and actually there was a -- if

15     the Court would permit me, there was a sort of a perverse pecking order

16     in the violation of the women as I later established that, for instance,

17     the camp commander Mijakic had to "have" a lady, who was the leader of

18     the Croatian party.  So the higher up the pecking order you were in the

19     guards, the higher up the pecking order you, as it were, got the lady,

20     for want of a better way of putting that.

21             So, yes, there was a targeting of the intelligentsia, of the

22     doctors, the educated people, without doubt.

23             MS. BIBLES:  And, Your Honours, that concludes my re-direct

24     examination of Mr. Vulliamy.

25             With respect to the matter -- sorry.  Your Honours, in terms of

Page 2741

 1     associated exhibits, at this point I've decided not to tender 65 ter

 2     17933 [sic], 17995, 18001, 22365A, and 22573.  I would tendered the

 3     remainder of the associated exhibits which have not been entered yet.

 4             With respect to 17992, which is the article used by the Defence,

 5     I would tender that at this time, as well as 22572 and 22393A.  And I do

 6     note here that the 92 ter filing for this witness indicated the relevant

 7     parts of the Stakic testimony in which these exhibits were referred to by

 8     the witness.

 9             MR. IVETIC:  No objection to the associated exhibits,

10     Your Honour, although I do note that I think counsel misspoke as to one.

11     I think it's 17993.  It has been recorded in the transcript as 17933 at

12     line 25.  Yeah.  Of the previous page.

13             And then I would have one question in re-cross-examination that

14     arises out of the re-direct, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me first check.  So three associated exhibits.

16     Now, I'm looking at my list, 22393A was not on my -- perhaps I am using

17     an old list.  Yes, I see I'm using the wrong list.  Let me check.

18             So we have three associated exhibits.

19             No objections, Mr. Ivetic?  I'd rather first deal with it

20     administratively --

21             MR. IVETIC:  No objections.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Otherwise it remains...

23             Madam Registrar 17992.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Becomes Exhibit P204, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

Page 2742

 1             P -- 22393A.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Becomes Exhibit P205, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 4             22572.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Becomes Exhibit P206, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 7             Mr. Ivetic, your questions.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 9                      Further Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic:

10        Q.   Sir, today when you were viewing these new clips that the Office

11     of the Prosecution had of the convoy, at page 56, line 1 of the

12     transcript, you indicated the incident was fairly over by then.  Am I to

13     understand your testimony that the shooting that you remember would have

14     been before the point in time that we saw the clips today?

15        A.   Before.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             MR. IVETIC:  No further questions for this witness.

18             But for the record, Your Honour, the disclosure for this witness

19     on May the 4th, 2012, the 40 exhibits does not include 22615A.

20             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bibles.

22             MS. BIBLES:  We did not intend to introduce that video-clip.  We

23     were aware that the witness testified about what he has referred to as a

24     prank in the Stakic testimony.  We did not intend to raise that in

25     direct.  It was not until the Defence introduced D43 yesterday that we

Page 2743

 1     then went back to the videos that we had disclosed with respect to the

 2     sounds.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Does that mean that you did not have a D43 available

 4     before?

 5             MS. BIBLES:  We did not, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  These circumstances justify why you had not notified

 9     at an earlier stage the Defence of the use of these videos.

10             Then I think we have... yes.

11             Mr. Ivetic, I think that yesterday, when you tendered 1D263, a

12     video, we ended up in a discussion about surrogate sheets well or not

13     being uploaded and that finally no number has been assigned to it.

14             Therefore, I take it that we have to finalise that as well.

15             Madam Registrar.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D263 becomes Exhibit D46, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  D46.

18             Was there any objection?  Ms. Bibles.  Just I have to ... that

19     was the first video played yesterday.

20             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honours, I was just wanting to double-check my

21     numbers.  That is virtually identical to P203.  This is the video that

22     was silent yesterday and we've also introduced the sound.  We have no

23     objection.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  D46 is admitted into evidence.

25             Then for D43, it was MFI'd.  There was some -- let me just check

Page 2744

 1     with Madam Registrar.

 2                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  D43 remains marked for identification because there

 4     was some technical problem with what was actually on the DVD or CD that

 5     was provided, so that will be resolved but for the time being it remains

 6     marked for identification.

 7             Having dealt with that -- yes.

 8             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honours, for the record we would object to D43

 9     or any of the material from the emperorsclothes or referred to that way

10     coming into evidence.  It's our position that D43 - in fact, the audio

11     track - was doctored.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I see that ... isn't it true that D46 was

13     taken from the same source?

14             MR. IVETIC:  That's correct.  And I think -- I think --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.

16             Now, the record says this was the video that was silent.

17             Objection.  I may have misheard you.  I thought you said there

18     was no objection, but otherwise my response was should have caused all

19     kind of problems.  Did you object earlier?

20             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honours, actually, I may need to go back and

21     take a look at these.  I believe that D46 and P203 are virtually

22     identical, and I did not object to D46.  If I was acting in mistake, I

23     will bring that to the Trial Chamber's attention at a later date.  I will

24     go take a closer look.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please take a closer look at it.

Page 2745

 1             Then, Mr. Ivetic, any other matter.

 2             MR. IVETIC:  Not from my side, Your Honour.  That was what I was

 3     going to raise.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 5             Mr. Vulliamy, this then concludes your testimony in this court.

 6     Perhaps I should say at least in this case.

 7             THE WITNESS:  I think in this court.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  I thank you for coming to The Hague for having

 9     answered all the questions that were put to you by the parties and by the

10     Bench, and I wish you a safe return -- well, or at least a safe travel to

11     wherever you will travel.

12             THE WITNESS:  Home, sir.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers]... home.

14             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honours, very much indeed for your

15     time.  I'm most grateful for your time.  Thank you.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  The witness may be escorted out of the courtroom.

17                           [The witness withdrew]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Is the Prosecution ready to call its next witness?

19     I have been considered whether or not to take a break now.  That would be

20     a break until ten minutes past 1.00.  We would then have 65 further

21     minutes.  Perhaps that's the best way to proceed.  I see everyone,

22     including the accused, nodding yes so that we don't have to interrupt the

23     testimony of that witness.

24             And that witness was scheduled for how long, Mr. Groome.

25             MR. GROOME:  One hour examination, I believe, Your Honour.  Yes.

Page 2746

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  So most likely we will be able to conclude the

 2     examination-in-chief today so that cross-examination can start tomorrow.

 3             We take a break and we resume at ten minutes past 1.00.

 4                           --- Recess taken at 12.49 p.m.

 5                           --- On resuming at 1.14 p.m.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Is the Prosecution ready to call its next witness?

 7             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Yes, Your Honours.  The Prosecution calls

 8     Mr. Ibro Osmanovic, RM067.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could the witness be escorted into the

10     courtroom.

11             Meanwhile, I use the opportunity to give the decision of the

12     Chamber on the request, the permission to reply to the response to the

13     92 ter motion for this witness.  That request is granted, and we have

14     received the reply.

15             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Your Honours, while the witness is brought in,

16     first of all I will address a matter with regard to the 92 ter statement

17     to be tendered with the witness.  Upon further review, the Prosecution

18     will use as 92 ter material only the 65 ter 28376, which is the witness

19     statement of 10 October 1994; and the 65 ter 28377, which is the

20     supplemental statement of 11 October 1995.

21             Second point.  Maybe I can refer to the relevant adjudicated

22     facts for this testimony, which are from 505 to 516, from 1241 to 1250,

23     and then 1261 to 1265.

24                           [The witness entered court]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon, Mr. Osmanovic.  Before you give

Page 2747

 1     evidence, the Rules require that you make a solemn declaration.  The text

 2     is handed out to you.  May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 4     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 5                           WITNESS:  IBRO OSMANOVIC

 6                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 7                           Examination by Ms. D'Ascoli:

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated, Mr. Osmanovic.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Osmanovic, you will first be examined by

11     Ms. D'Ascoli.  Ms. D'Ascoli is counsel for the Prosecution and you will

12     find her to your right.

13             Please proceed, Ms. D'Ascoli.

14             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Thank you, Your Honours.

15        Q.   Sir, can you please state your full name for the record.

16        A.   My name is Ibro Osmanovic.

17        Q.   Can you tell us where you were born?

18        A.   I was born in Vlasenica.

19        Q.   And what is your ethnicity?

20        A.   I'm a Muslim by ethnicity.

21        Q.   Mr. Osmanovic, do you remember providing a statement to the ICTY

22     on 5, 7, and 10 October 1994?

23        A.   Yes, I do.

24             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Can I ask the Court Officer to please display 65

25     ter 28376 on the screens.  This is a statement of Mr. Osmanovic signed on

Page 2748

 1     the 10th of October, 1994.

 2             And, Your Honours, I want to mention that we have uploaded a

 3     version of this statement which has a -- a numbered paragraph both in

 4     B/C/S and in English.  Of course, we have communicated to the Defence and

 5     they had no objections.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  That's understood.

 7             Please proceed.

 8             MS. D'ASCOLI:

 9        Q.   Mr. Osmanovic, if you can have -- if you can look at the English

10     of the statement.  In particular, the signature at the bottom of the

11     page.

12             MS. D'ASCOLI:  If we can have a look at the bottom of the page.

13        Q.   And can you tell me whether you recognise that signature.

14        A.   Yes.  That's my signature.

15             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Can we then go at the last page, which is page 17

16     of the -- does this work?  No.

17             I'll try again.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  No, but I don't -- I don't think it's the

19     microphone.  It must be something else because my microphone doesn't

20     produce any sound either.

21                           [Technical difficulty]

22             MS. D'ASCOLI:  The connection seems ...

23             JUDGE ORIE:  I think now --

24             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Yes, okay.  Now it works.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We resume after this technical problem.

Page 2749

 1             Please proceed, Ms. D'Ascoli.

 2             MS. D'ASCOLI:  I think I asked to go to the last page of the

 3     English document, which is page 17.

 4        Q.   And, again, sir, I asked you if you recognise the signature which

 5     is on top of the page.

 6             MS. D'ASCOLI:  So if you can move on top of the page.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  That's my signature.

 8             MS. D'ASCOLI:

 9        Q.   Sir, I will now deal with a couple of corrections that you wanted

10     to make to this statement.

11             MS. D'ASCOLI:  If we move to page 5 of this statement - this is

12     page 4 -- page 5 in both English and B/C/S.

13        Q.   And if you could look at the very first line of paragraph 17.

14             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Maybe we can zoom in.

15        Q.   I understand there was a correction that you wanted to make with

16     regard to the third person listed here.  Can you tell us what the

17     correction is?

18        A.   It's Zoran's son, Goran.  The correction, as far as the last name

19     is concerned, is that the surname should be Deuric.  Deuric.  In fact,

20     here it says "Djuric," so the correct surname is Deuric.

21        Q.   So do I understand correctly that the full name, the correct one

22     should read Goran Deuric, which was son of Zoran, right?

23        A.   Yes, that's correct.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Could we ask the witness to please spell the last

25     name of this person.

Page 2750

 1             MS. D'ASCOLI:

 2        Q.   Sir, could you please spell the last name of this person?

 3        A.   Goran, G-o-r-a-n.

 4        Q.   The last name, please.  The family name.

 5        A.   D-e-u-r-i-c, with a diacritic mark on it.

 6        Q.   Thank you, sir.

 7             MS. D'ASCOLI:  If we can now go to page 6.  And zoom in on the

 8     very first line of paragraph 21.

 9        Q.   Sir, you wanted to make a correction also to the name mentioned

10     here.  Can you please tell us what that correction is?

11        A.   Yes.  It had to do with the name, since there are two brothers

12     Miljanici.  There is Slavisa and I can't remember the other one.  It only

13     concerns -- the correction only concerns the name Miljanic.

14        Q.   Yes, in proofing you said the name was not Slavisa but Sinisa,

15     correct?

16        A.   Yes, there were the two Miljanic brothers, so the correction only

17     concerns the name.

18        Q.   Exactly.  So -- in paragraph 21 you meant to refer to

19     Sinisa Miljanic; right?

20        A.   Yes, yes.

21        Q.   Okay.  Taking into account these changes, are you satisfied that

22     this statement is an accurate record of what happened and what you

23     experienced as far as you can remember?

24        A.   Yes.

25             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Can we now -- can I now ask the Court Officer to

Page 2751

 1     please display 65 ter 28377, and this is the supplemental statement

 2     signed on 11 October 1995.

 3        Q.   Sir, again, can I ask you to view the first page of the English

 4     document, in particular the signature at the bottom of the page, and

 5     please indicate whether you recognise the signature?

 6        A.   That's my signature.

 7             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Can we then go to the last page of the English

 8     document, page 4.

 9        Q.   And again, I ask you whether you recognise the signature at the

10     top of the page?

11        A.   Yes, that's my signature.

12        Q.   Sir, are you satisfied that this supplemental statement is an

13     accurate record of what happened and what you experienced as far as you

14     remember?

15        A.   Yes.  This supplemental statement relates to Gertbakovic [phoen].

16             THE INTERPRETER:  If the interpreter heard the name correctly.

17             MS. D'ASCOLI:

18        Q.   Sir -- sir, can you please repeat?  You said that the

19     supplemental statement relates to ...

20        A.   To the Batkovici camp near Bijeljina.

21        Q.   Thank you, sir.

22             Now, subject to the corrections that we discussed for the

23     previous statement, if the Chamber takes these two statements together,

24     will it have a correct picture of your evidence?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 2752

 1        Q.   And if you were asked today the same questions that you were

 2     asked during those interviews in 1994 and 1995, would you keep the same

 3     answers and provide the same information in substance?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And, sir, now that you have taken the solemn declaration, do you

 6     affirm that you have provided that information in accordance with the

 7     truth?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Your Honours, the Prosecution tenders the 65 ter

10     28376 and 28377, pursuant to Rule 92 ter as public exhibits.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Defence.  I don't know yet who to address, but

12     Mr. Stojanovic.

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] We don't have any objections

14     Your Honour.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, 28376 would become.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Becomes Exhibit P207, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

18             28377.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Becomes Exhibit P208, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

21             You may proceed, Ms. D'Ascoli.

22             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Thank you, Your Honours.

23             Now, with the Chamber's permission I would briefly summarise

24     Mr. Osmanovic evidence for the record and for the public.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  May I take it that you have explained to

Page 2753

 1     Mr. Osmanovic the purpose of reading out so that the public is aware of

 2     what is in his statement?

 3             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Yes, I have, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 5             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Ibro Osmanovic is a Bosnian Muslim from Vlasenica

 6     who was detained during 1992 and 1993 in the Vlasenica police station,

 7     the Vlasenica municipality prison, Susica camp and Batkovic camp.  He

 8     testifies about how the JNA took over the most vital departments in the

 9     town of Vlasenica on 23, 24 April 1992.

10             On 22 May 1992, the witness was arrested and detained with other

11     Muslim men in the police station at Vlasenica.  This began a period of

12     detention that lasted from May 1992 until July 1993 in different

13     detention facilities.

14             From the Vlasenica police station, the witness was transferred to

15     the Vlasenica municipality prison, then the Susica camp, and finally

16     Batkovic camp in Bijeljina where the witness ultimately remained until he

17     was released in July 1993.

18             While detained at Vlasenica municipality prison in June 1992, the

19     witness was taken with other prisoners to the Muslim settlement of Drum,

20     a suburb of Vlasenica, to bury bodies.  He buried 22 bodies.  Of all

21     those men, all but one had single gun-shot wounds between their eyes.

22     The witness provides evidence of beatings and mistreatments at Susica

23     camp, a facility commanded by Dragan [realtime transcript read in error

24     "Drago"] Nikolic, and he also testifies about beatings and killings of

25     the detainees held at Batkovic where the witness was moved at end of

Page 2754

 1     June 1992.

 2             And that concludes the summary of the evidence, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. D'Ascoli.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I ask you for the clarity of the transcript.

 5             You mentioned a name in page 76, line 9.  Is that properly

 6     recorded, Ms. D'Ascoli?

 7             MS. D'ASCOLI:  That should be Dragan Nikolic.  I see that it is

 8     written Drago Nikolic.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I also have a question to clarify.

11             At page 75, line 19, you're saying that in Vlasenica police

12     station the Vlasenica municipality prison Susica camp and Batkovici camp,

13     and then you don't -- you mention the name of the army that brought the

14     witness to those places but it's -- what was the name of the army?

15             MS. D'ASCOLI:  I said that he testifies about how the JNA took

16     over the most vital departments in town.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

18             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Thank you, Your Honours.

19        Q.   Mr. Osmanovic, now that I read the summary of your evidence, I'm

20     going to ask you some questions to clarify or expand upon that evidence.

21             First of all, do you know approximately how many inhabitants the

22     town of Vlasenica had in 1992?

23        A.   The municipality of Vlasenica had approximately 10.000

24     inhabitants.

25        Q.   What about the town, if you know?

Page 2755

 1        A.   The town of Vlasenica itself had between 4- and 5.000

 2     inhabitants, if you include the suburbs.

 3        Q.   Sir, I understand from your statement, the 1994 one, at

 4     paragraph 10, that in April and May 1992, the Muslim population of

 5     Vlasenica was not allowed to move freely within the municipality or to

 6     leave it if they were not issued with specific passes for that purpose,

 7     and you also specify in the same paragraph that the passes to leave the

 8     town were issued by the crisis committee of Vlasenica.  Now as you

 9     mention in that paragraph only the Muslim population, I take it that this

10     procedure did not apply also to the -- did not apply to the Serb

11     population; correct?

12        A.   The Muslim population moved around having obtained passes issued

13     by the Crisis Staff of the Serbian municipality of Vlasenica.  On the

14     other hand, the Serbian population could move around freely without such

15     passes.

16             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Can I ask the Court Officer to call up 65 ter

17     02862, please.

18        Q.   Sir, in the same paragraph 10 of your statement, you also tell

19     that one time you were issued with one of such passes to go visit your

20     brother.

21             Now, can you please look at the original of this document.  Did

22     you have chance of reviewing it during proofing -- during preparation for

23     your testimony?

24        A.   Yes, I did.

25        Q.   Can you tell us what this document is.

Page 2756

 1        A.   This is a pass in which passage to Zivinice is authorised.  This

 2     is -- these are certificates that were issued for people who were leaving

 3     Vlasenica, and it was a pass or a certificate issued to Remzija Huric.

 4        Q.   And is this pass similar to the one that was issued to you?

 5        A.   Yes.  But where it says "we hereby authorise a trip to Zivinice,"

 6     in my case it concerned a trip from Vlasenica to Bregovi where the family

 7     has a house, and I was enabled or allowed to go to Piskavice.

 8        Q.   And whose signature was on the pass that was issued to you?

 9        A.   Milenko Stanic signed it.  And Matic signed on his behalf.

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

12             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Thank you.

13        Q.   And sir, what is the signature that you see on this pass; and is

14     that similar or the same as the one that was on your pass?

15        A.   Milenko Stanic signed, but Matic signed on his behalf in the same

16     way that he signed for everyone else, and that was also the case for me.

17        Q.   Yes.  So I take it, your pass, with regard to the signature, it

18     looked exactly the same.

19        A.   Yes.

20             MS. D'ASCOLI:  I tender this document, 65 ter 02862 into evidence

21     as a public exhibit, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.

23             Madam Registrar.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 02862 becomes Exhibit P209,

25     Your Honours.

Page 2757

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  P209 is admitted into evidence.

 2             MS. D'ASCOLI:

 3        Q.   Sir, I will now move to your detention in the municipality, in

 4     the Vlasenica municipality prison.

 5             At paragraph 28 of your 1994 statement, which is now P207, you

 6     describe how during your detention at the Vlasenica municipality prison

 7     you were taken to Drum to bury bodies and that you buried 22 bodies

 8     there.  Can you tell me by whom you were taken to Drum?

 9        A.   People from the police station in Vlasenica took us to Drum.

10     People in uniform of Serbian ethnicity.

11        Q.   And this happened while you were detained at the Vlasenica

12     municipality prison; correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And this was in June 1992.  Do you remember more or less when in

15     June?

16        A.   On the 2nd of June I was transferred to the municipal prison from

17     the police station, so that was at the very beginning.  It could have

18     been on the 1st.

19        Q.   With regard to the -- to the bodies that you buried, what type of

20     clothing were they wearing?

21        A.   They were civilians.

22        Q.   Meaning you had -- meaning -- you mean that they had civilian

23     clothes?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And what was their age group, if you remember?

Page 2758

 1        A.   They were between 20 and 60 years of age, roughly speaking.

 2        Q.   And in the same paragraph, sir, you mention that you knew four of

 3     these 22 bodies; namely, Ekrim Jahic, his father Abdullah Jahic,

 4     Nedzad Odic, and Osmo Odic.  Can you tell us what their ethnicity was?

 5        A.   They are people I knew, and they were of Muslim ethnicity.

 6        Q.   Do you know if also the other bodies were of the same ethnicity,

 7     Muslim?

 8        A.   Yes.  Because that settlement was inhabited exclusively by

 9     Muslims.

10        Q.   And do you know if these bodies were ever exhumed from there?

11        A.   I don't know whether they were moved from that place, but I do

12     know that they were buried in the Sehiski [as interpreted] cemetery in

13     Vlasenica, after the armed conflict.

14        Q.   Do you know the name of the cemetery where you buried them in --

15     in Drum?  You mention -- you described it as being near the "boksit"

16     stadium?

17        A.   Yes, behind the "boksit" stadium there's the Muslim cemetery

18     Roblejakita [as interpreted].

19        Q.   And is this a different cemetery from the previous one you

20     mentioned, the Sehiski cemetery in Vlasenica?  And I'm sorry for my

21     pronunciation.

22        A.   The Sehici [as interpreted] cemetery was created after the war.

23     People who had been found in mass graves would be buried there as

24     martyrs, people who had been killed in Vlasenica were subsequently buried

25     there.  In the Rakite cemetery, well, that cemetery was used to bury

Page 2759

 1     people as usual.

 2        Q.   Okay.  One last question with regard to this area of your

 3     testimony.  Is the Dzamdzici village close to the village of Drum?

 4        A.   The Dzamdzici village is in the immediate vicinity just across

 5     the hill behind Drum village.

 6        Q.   Sir, I will now move to the Susica camp.  You were transferred to

 7     Susica camp on 18 June 1992.  And this is paragraph 31 of P207.  Were you

 8     ever told why you were detained?

 9        A.   No, never.

10        Q.   And later on at paragraph 32, you say that when you arrived into

11     the hangar at Susica, there were about 500 to 550 people there.  And you

12     saw also people that you knew from -- from Vlasenica and surrounding

13     villages.

14             So of the men that you personally knew in Susica camp, were any

15     of them involved, as far as you know, in any subversive or violent

16     activities of any kind?

17        A.   As far as I know, no.  Because there was no armed conflict in

18     Vlasenica.

19        Q.   Sir, at paragraph 37 of your 1994 statement, you describe how two

20     detainees, Durmo Handzic and Asim Zildzic, two pensioners that you knew,

21     they were taken out of the hangar by Dragan Nikolic on 22 June 1992.  I

22     want to show you a document with this regard.

23             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Can the Court Officer please call up 65 ter 19197.

24     And this is a report by prison warden Veljko Basic, dated the 22nd of

25     June 1992 concerning the deaths of Durmo Handzic and Asim Zildzic at

Page 2760

 1     Susica camp.

 2        Q.   Sir, can you please look at the original of this document.  Did

 3     you have a chance of reviewing it in the preparation for your testimony?

 4        A.   Yes, I saw it yesterday.

 5        Q.   Can you please -- can you please have a look at the description

 6     of the cause of death for these two men and tell us if what you read in

 7     the document concerning the deaths of these two men corresponds to what

 8     you saw?

 9        A.   It does not.

10        Q.   Did they die of heart attack, as this document states?

11        A.   No.  They died because of beatings.

12        Q.   And was there -- was any medical examination ever done on the

13     bodies of these two people at the camp, as far as you saw, because you

14     were in the hangar?

15        A.   Hadzic died right next to me.  He was lying by my legs.  And

16     there was no examination carried out.

17        Q.   What about the second person?

18        A.   Zildzic died during the night as soon as they brought him back

19     after the beating.

20        Q.   Now, according also to what you saw happened after their deaths,

21     can you tell us if you think that they could have been buried according

22     to Muslim customs as this document says for both bodies?

23        A.   Maybe they were only taken to the Muslim cemetery and buried

24     there, but they certainly were not buried in accordance with Muslim

25     rites.

Page 2761

 1        Q.   And does of the date of this document, the 22nd of June,

 2     correspond to your recollection concerning when these two men died?

 3        A.   To the best of my recollection, the date tallies, the 22nd.

 4     However, this does not tally, what Veljko Basic said, that they were

 5     examined by a physician and buried in accordance with Muslim rites.

 6        Q.   And do you know the person who signed this document?

 7        A.   Veljko Basic, retired policeman, acquitted by the Court of Bosnia

 8     and Herzegovina on account of his advanced age.  He was commander of the

 9     camp in Susica.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before you remove this exhibit from the screen,

11     ma'am.  Can we just establish from Mr. Osmanovic what is the family name

12     of Asim?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Asim Zildzic.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

15             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 19917 into evidence

16     as a public exhibit.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 19917 becomes Exhibit P210,

19     Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

21             Please proceed.

22             MS. D'ASCOLI:

23        Q.   Sir, in several paragraphs of your statement, for example

24     paragraph 37, 39, 42, or 44 of P207, you describe episodes of men who

25     were taken out of the hangar and beaten.  On the basis of what you

Page 2762

 1     observed and experienced, would you say that beatings were frequent or

 2     not at Susica camp?

 3        A.   I can say that they were frequent.  Some people were actually

 4     beaten every day.

 5        Q.   And in your statement you also describe episodes of killings or

 6     of men who died after being taken out of the hangar and beaten.  Can I

 7     ask you what was the ethnicity of all these detainees who were beaten

 8     and/or killed?

 9        A.   They were Muslims.

10        Q.   Sir, on the basis of what you observed and experienced in Susica

11     camp, why do you think Bosnian Muslims were detained, beaten, and/or

12     killed in Susica camp?

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic.

14             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] The witness would have to

15     speculate in order to answer a question that was phrased this way.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. D'Ascoli, could you please rephrase your

17     question such that we know what -- on what facts the witness -- whatever

18     opinion he may have formed, bases it.

19             MS. D'ASCOLI:

20        Q.   Sir, during your detention at Susica camp, on the basis of the

21     beatings or the killings or -- of what you saw was happening to Bosnian

22     Muslim detainees, were you able to -- to form or to develop an idea or

23     did you -- did you become aware of the reason why this was happening?

24        A.   Quite simply all the beatings that happened to a certain group of

25     people, all this torture that we suffered at the hands of our neighbours,

Page 2763

 1     until that day, no one could really figure this out.  No one was guilty

 2     of anything.  I lived in my own house.  I was taken out of my house.  And

 3     I was taken out there.  The same thing happened to all my neighbours.

 4     Unfortunately, these people who were killed are no longer with us.  They

 5     were accused of all sorts of things.  One of them was accused of having

 6     manufactured knives, another one of smuggling.  However, since he

 7     couldn't move about anywhere, I don't see how he could have smuggling.

 8     Also the one who was accused of making knives.  When was he making these

 9     knives?  So it was sufficient to pin something on someone and then they

10     would experience what we experienced.

11        Q.   And you already said that you were not given a reason for being

12     detained.  In so far as you know, were the people you knew there at the

13     camp, were they ever told why they were detained?

14        A.   No.  On one occasion, they came and said that we would be

15     exchanged for some detained Serbs who were allegedly grazing grass at the

16     stadium in Tuzla.  We received the same information in Batkovic once as

17     well.  However, we never found out what the actual reason for our

18     detention was.

19        Q.   Sir, I will now move to your detention in Batkovic.  You were

20     transferred there on the 30th of June, 1992, and you spent more than a

21     year in this camp.  Are you able to give an estimate for what you saw of

22     how many persons approximately were detained there at Batkovic?

23        A.   When the Batkovic camp was established, the first group was

24     brought in from Vlasenica on the 27th, the second one on the 28th, and I

25     arrived in the third group on the 30th of the June.  In Vlasenica there

Page 2764

 1     were between 500 and 550 of us.  Four hundred had already arrived in

 2     Batkovic once I got there, because one group stayed on in Vlasenica.

 3     After that, people were brought in from the area of the municipality of

 4     Zvornik, from the area of the municipality of Brcko, from the area of the

 5     municipality of Lopare, Ugljevik, also from the area of the municipality

 6     of Rogatica.  Today my estimate would be that at full capacity there were

 7     3.500 of us in this camp.

 8        Q.   Sir, did you know many of the -- many people among the detainees

 9     there at Batkovic?

10        A.   The people who arrived from Vlasenica, I knew them, 90 per cent

11     of all of them.

12        Q.   I now want to show you a document now.

13             MS. D'ASCOLI:  If the Court Officer, please, if they can call up

14     P191.

15        Q.   This is a photocopy of a list of persons detained at Batkovic

16     stamped and certified on by the Bijeljina lower court as being identical

17     to the original.  And for each name, it lists last name, father's name,

18     first name, date and place of birth, residence, date and time of arrival,

19     the collection centre, and date and time of departure from the collection

20     centre.

21             Mr. Osmanovic, did you have a chance of reviewing in detail this

22     document in preparation for your testimony?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And do you remember seeing on this document names that you

25     recognised where -- of people detained with you at Batkovic?

Page 2765

 1        A.   Yes.

 2             MS. D'ASCOLI:  And if we can go to page 138 of the original of

 3     the document, please.

 4        Q.   And, sir, if you can look at entry number 21.

 5        A.   That is my name and surname.

 6        Q.   Sir, and you also said that you recognised when you reviewed this

 7     rather long list, you were able to recognise many other persons listed in

 8     this document because they were detained there with you at Batkovic.  I

 9     will just mention a couple of examples.  For example, in your statement

10     you mentioned a man called Fadil Halilhodzic at paragraphs 60 and 62 of

11     P207.  This man was singled out for beatings several times and he

12     belonged to a group called the special prisoners, because they were often

13     singled out for beatings.  Do you remember seeing his name on this list?

14        A.   Yes.

15             MS. D'ASCOLI:  And for the record, Your Honours, this is entry

16     number 38 on page 3 of the original document, P191.

17        Q.   Sir, further in your statement, paragraph 39 of P207, you also

18     refer to someone by the name of Reuf Rasidagic who was beaten by

19     Dragan Nikolic about five times over four or five days, and eventually

20     begged Nikolic to kill him.  Do you remember seeing his name on this

21     list?

22        A.   Rasidagic, Reuf.  He was beaten up - he wasn't killed - by Dragan

23     Nikolic at the Susica camp.  He kicked him and he also hit him with his

24     rifle, and he said to him, lie to me, telling me when you were last in a

25     cinema.  It's expensive to waste a bullet on you.  Three marks per

Page 2766

 1     bullet.  Tell me where your brother is.  That was the reason why he beat

 2     him.  And Reuf did arrive alive.

 3        Q.   And you remember seeing also his name on this list?

 4        A.   Yes, I remember that.

 5             MS. D'ASCOLI:  And for the record, this is entry number 18 on

 6     page 151 of the original document, P191.

 7             Finally, if we can go to page 164 of the original, please.  And

 8     if we can have a look at entry number 98.

 9        Q.   Sir, can you tell me if you recognise this name, entry 98?

10        A.   Smajic Age Ejub from Bijeljina was beaten to death in Batkovic.

11        Q.   Thank you, sir.

12             MS. D'ASCOLI:  I'm done with the document.  Thanks.

13        Q.   Mr. Osmanovic, at paragraph 61 of P207, and then more extensively

14     in your 1995 statement, which is P208, you tell about three detainees who

15     appear to be willing participants in the beatings of other detainees and

16     who would beat the other detainees with our without the presence of the

17     guards.

18             Now, my question is:  How did the guards react when seeing such

19     beatings from detainees on other detainees?

20        A.   They laughed and they approved of it.

21        Q.   And did they do anything about it?

22        A.   To stop them?  No.

23        Q.   And, as far as you know, did any guard or other prison officials

24     that you heard of suggest the possibility that anyone would be punished

25     for participating in the beatings of other detainees?

Page 2767

 1        A.   I don't know about any such thing.

 2        Q.   Sir, and, again, with regard to the Batkovic camp, in several

 3     paragraphs of your statement, paragraphs 54 to 60, for example, you

 4     describe episodes of men who were taken out of the hangar and beaten; and

 5     also at paragraph 57 of the 1994 statement you also describe how an old

 6     man, Zulfo Hadziomerovic, died as a result of the beatings.

 7             Now, on the basis of what you saw, what you observed there at the

 8     camp, would you say that beatings were frequent or not, at the Batkovic

 9     camp?

10        A.   Beatings were a daily thing.  It was like a daily meal for a

11     group of specials.

12        Q.   And what was the ethnicity of the detainees who were beaten

13     and/or killed?

14        A.   Muslims and Croats.  Croats arrived once the Brcko camp had been

15     closed down.  Before that, there were only Muslims.

16        Q.   What was the atmosphere there in the camp?  Were you scared?

17        A.   An atmosphere of fear.  Everyone was in fear for their own lives.

18        Q.   Sir, I also want to ask you some questions about your family.

19             Did you lose any family members in 1992/1993 after the takeover

20     of Vlasenica town?

21        A.   Yes.  I lost three members of my family, my immediate family, and

22     a total of 36 relatives from my extended family.

23             I lost two brothers and a sister.  The sister was 16 years old.

24     She was burned to death.  She was found at the location of Pelemis in the

25     municipality of Sekovici.  Only 7 per cent of her mortal remains were

Page 2768

 1     found.

 2             My younger brother was found in the area of Kljestani of the

 3     municipality of Vlasenica.  Three mass graves were discovered, and his

 4     head was found 25 kilometres away.

 5             As for my older brother, nothing has been found yet.  I cannot

 6     find any trace whatsoever.

 7             So these are members of my very own family, from my very own

 8     home.  Also my maternal uncle and his family, all of them are missing.

 9        Q.   Can you tell me the name of your younger sister, the sister who

10     was 16 years old?

11        A.   Ferida.

12        Q.   And can you clarify the circumstances of her death, if you know,

13     what happened?

14        A.   Mother was in camp and the sisters were sent to Cerska.  She was

15     a child and she got lost in the woods and was lost somewhere in the area

16     of the Serb positions.  Then she was returned to the Susica camp again.

17     So the last traces led to Pelemis in the municipality of Sekovici.  She

18     was found this year.  She was buried on the 24th -- or, rather, funeral

19     services were held at the Muslim cemetery of martyrs.  There were only

20     7 per cent of her mortal remains were found, unfortunately.  All the rest

21     were burned.

22             At this funeral service, most of the persons buried were young

23     girls.  None of them were even 18 years old.

24        Q.   To clarify in the record, I see that her name is recorded as

25     Ferid.

Page 2769

 1             Sir, can you repeat her first name?

 2        A.   Ferida.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  I think the witness said that only 7 per cent of her

 4     remains were found.  This in correction to page 90, line 23.

 5             MS. D'ASCOLI:

 6        Q.   Can you also tell the Court the name of your younger brother and

 7     the name of your older brother?

 8        A.   Hajrudin, my younger brother, stayed on after me in Susica.  He

 9     was born in 1967.  My older brother, Hakija, was born in 1962.  He was

10     married to Dragica Sokic, a Serb woman.  I last saw him when I was taken

11     to Batkovic.

12        Q.   Where any -- because you mention your younger brother stayed in

13     Susica after you.  How many, if any, members of your family were held in

14     detention in Susica camp?

15        A.   Out of my family members, in addition to my brother Hakija who

16     was married to a Serb woman and he had to report to the police station

17     every 24 hours and he was detained in the police station, my entire

18     family went through the Susica camp.

19        Q.   And were the remains of your younger brother ever found?

20        A.   Yes, they were found.  He was found at three locations.

21        Q.   Do you know the name of these locations or -- and did you

22     participate in the identification process?

23        A.   Kljestani 1 and Kljestani 2.  I took part in the identification

24     process, and I also took part in the identification process for my

25     sister, as we were looking for her.

Page 2770

 1        Q.   Sir, do you think you can describe for the Court how the

 2     experience of losing so many members of your family and also being

 3     detained has affected you.

 4        A.   The loss of family members is something that is the hardest of

 5     all.  It is easy to look for someone that you're not related to, who is

 6     not your family.  But to rummage through the bones of someone who was

 7     born by your very own mother, I mean, my sister was only 16 years old,

 8     and there are only four bones left of her.  It's very hard to speak about

 9     something like that.

10             It wasn't that hard for me to look for them.  It was important

11     for me to find them.  And I managed to find two of them after all these

12     years, and I don't know if I'll manage to find the third one.

13        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Osmanovic.

14             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Your Honours, I see the time.  I only have one

15     aerial photo of the Susica camp that I would like to show to the witness.

16     It is already in evidence, but I would like him to make some markings.

17     But I can leave it for tomorrow.  Besides that, my examination is -- will

18     be concluded after that.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  I suggest that we do that tomorrow in order not

20     to -- because it usually takes at least a couple of minutes and then ...

21             Mr. Osmanovic, I'd like to instruct you that you should not speak

22     with anyone or communicate with anyone about the testimony you have given

23     today or the testimony you are still about to give tomorrow.

24             Is that clear to you?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

Page 2771

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we would like to see you back tomorrow morning

 2     at 9.30 in this same courtroom.  You may follow the usher.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

 4                           [The witness stands down]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  May I make one observation.  I'm addressing you,

 6     Ms. D'Ascoli, but it happened to other counsel as well.  Would you please

 7     carefully not only focus on your questions but also listen to the

 8     answers.  To ask to a witness whether the remains of his younger brother

 9     were found, if, two minutes ago, he has told us that the head was found

10     at 25 kilometres from the rest, is not something which avoids further

11     painful experience.

12             I do understand that if you want to know the location of the mass

13     graves that you should inquire into which three places, but to ask him

14     were the remains found, it may sound, in the ears of the witness, as you

15     have not listened to his answer very well.

16             MS. D'ASCOLI:  I apologise, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  We adjourn for the day, and we resume tomorrow,

18     Friday, the 21st of September, at 9.30 in the morning, in this same

19     courtroom, I.

20                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.16 p.m.,

21                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 21st day of

22                           September, 2012, at 9.30 a.m.