Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2864

 1                           Monday, 24 September 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.34 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 6             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 8             This is the case IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10             Is the Prosecution ready to call its next witness?

11             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.  Good morning.  The witness is

12     RM051, and the witness will be led by Ms. Hochhauser.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Groome.

14             Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

15             Meanwhile, I'll deal with a few matters.

16             The first is about MFI D20; that is, the report of the NIOD.  The

17     Chamber was informed that there was disagreement on how much material

18     should be uploaded in relation to MFI D20.  Chamber's staff has requested

19     the parties to file their positions, and since this has not been done

20     yet, the Chamber instructs the parties to file their positions on this

21     document by Wednesday, the 26th of September of this year.

22                           [The witness entered court]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Witness.  Before you give evidence,

24     the Rules require that you make a solemn declaration.  The text is now

25     handed out to you.  May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.

Page 2865

 1             Yes, and perhaps could the screens be pulled up.  Or is there --

 2     while the witness is standing, perhaps face distortion might not be.  So

 3     let's be cautious with the camera, that ...

 4             Yes.  Please proceed.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 6     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 7                           WITNESS:  RM051

 8                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 9                           Examination by Ms. Hochhauser:

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated.

11             Witness RM051, protective measures are in place.  That means that

12     no one outside this courtroom sees your face and we'll not use your own

13     name but we'll call you "Witness 51" or "Witness RM051".  Please take

14     care that if there's any question which, by answering that question,

15     might reveal your identity, that you ask for private session so that we

16     can hear your testimony without your name being revealed to the public.

17             You'll first be examined by Ms. Hochhauser.  Ms. Hochhauser is

18     counsel for the Prosecution, and you'll find her to your right.

19             Ms. Hochhauser, please proceed.

20             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Thank you.  And good morning, Your Honours.

21             Just before I begin, I would quickly like to list the adjudicated

22     facts that we're relying on this with this witness, which are 461, 462,

23     465, 470, 473, 483 and 485.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If you would read those numbers more slowly,

25     our transcriber has an easier task.  Difficult task anyhow but easier.

Page 2866

 1     Please proceed.

 2             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  I see on the transcript that despite the

 3     challenge I presented, they got to correctly.

 4        Q.   Good morning, Witness 051.

 5             Can I ask the court usher to please put 65 ter number 28426, the

 6     pseudonym sheet - not for broadcast, obviously - up on the monitor.

 7             And, Witness, please take a look at what's on the monitor in

 8     front of you.  Does it accurately reflect your name and your date of

 9     birth?

10        A.   Yes, it is accurate.

11             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  So I would ask that 65 ter number 28426 be

12     admitted into evidence under seal.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the number would be?

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 28426 becomes Exhibit P213 under seal,

15     Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  P213 is admitted under seal.

17             MS. HOCHHAUSER:

18        Q.   Witness 51, can the tell the Chamber, please, are you currently

19     working?

20        A.   I'm retired.

21        Q.   And where is it that you're living?

22        A.   I live in Banja Luka.

23        Q.   Now, you have testified in two proceedings, two prior proceedings

24     here at the ICTY, and also in proceedings in Bosnia and Herzegovina; is

25     that correct?

Page 2867

 1        A.   That's correct.

 2        Q.   And do you recall testifying in the case against Mico Stanisic

 3     and Stojan Zupljanin on the 21st and 22nd of January, 2010?

 4        A.   I recall that.

 5        Q.   Did you have the opportunity over this past weekend to listen to

 6     a B/C/S audio-recording of portions of your testimony in that case?

 7        A.   Yes.  I listened to that on Saturday.  And yesterday we had

 8     preparations, as it were.

 9        Q.   Now, if you were asked the same questions today as you were in

10     that proceeding, would you give the same answers?

11        A.   The essence would be the same basically, no matter when questions

12     are being put about my stay and my work in Manjaca in 1992.

13        Q.   And when you say the essence would the same, do you mean that the

14     substance of the answers would be the same, even the language you chose

15     was slightly different?

16        A.   Perhaps the word order could be different or perhaps a different

17     word may be used because a person cannot fully repeat two statements if

18     they're given at different points in time.  But I repeat that the essence

19     would always be the same.

20        Q.   Now, having had the opportunity to review -- to listen to that

21     testimony, is there anything in it that you would wish to change or to

22     clarify?

23        A.   I have nothing to add or change in response to the questions that

24     had been put then to me, if they are to be put to me now, that is.

25        Q.   Now, having taken the oath as a witness, can you affirm that your

Page 2868

 1     answers in that case were also both accurate and truthful?

 2        A.   If I have to repeat the solemn declaration, then I shall do that

 3     again.  I am telling you that it was truthful then, it will be truthful

 4     today, and it will be truthful any other time.

 5             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Your Honours, at this time the Prosecution

 6     tenders 65 ter 28424, which are excerpts of the prior testimony of this

 7     witness given in the Stanisic/Zupljanin case on the 21st and 22nd of

 8     January, 2010.  It does contain some private session testimony so I'm

 9     asking that it be entered under seal.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  I see there are no objections from the Defence.

11             Madam Registrar.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 28424 becomes Exhibit P214,

13     Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence under seal.

15             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Your Honours, the Prosecution further tenders

16     the associated exhibits enumerated in the list provided to the Chamber

17     and Defence with the exception that, upon further consideration, the

18     Prosecution is not seeking to tender the video with the 65 ter number

19     22307 in reliance on the verbal description contained in the transcript

20     and adjudicated fact 463.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Which means that what then remains is -- we go by it

22     one by one.  2567, no objections.

23             Madam Registrar, daily report, strictly confidential.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 02567 becomes Exhibit P215,

25     Your Honours.

Page 2869

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  P215 is admitted into evidence under seal.

 2             02717.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Becomes Exhibit P216, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

 5             02848.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Becomes Exhibit P217, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  And admitted into evidence.

 8             03057.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Becomes Exhibit P218, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

11             03061 -- the previous one is admitted under seal.  That was P218.

12             Now, 03061.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Becomes Exhibit P219, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Is admitted into evidence under seal.

15             03064.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Becomes Exhibit P220 Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence under seal.

18             03077.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Becomes Exhibit P221, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted under seal.

21             03082.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Becomes Exhibit P222, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted under seal.

24             03097.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Becomes Exhibit P223, Your Honours.

Page 2870

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.  And that's a public document.

 2             05989.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Becomes Exhibit P224, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 5             06940.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Becomes Exhibit P225 Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted under seal.

 8             06953.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Becomes Exhibit P226, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted under seal.

11             06956.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Becomes Exhibit P227, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted under seal.

14             06958.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Becomes Exhibit P228, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted as a public exhibit.

17             06960.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Becomes Exhibit P229, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted under seal.

20             06961.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Becomes Exhibit P230, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

23             06968.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Becomes Exhibit P231, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted under seal.

Page 2871

 1             06973.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Becomes Exhibit P232, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  P232 is admitted into evidence.

 4             06989.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Becomes Exhibit P233, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted under seal.

 7             06999.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Becomes Exhibit P234, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted under seal.

10             07000.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Becomes Exhibit P235, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted under seal.

13             07006.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Becomes Exhibit P236, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

16             07010.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Becomes Exhibit P237, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted under seal.

19             07012.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Becomes Exhibit P238, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

22             18239.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Becomes Exhibit P239, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

25             19980.

Page 2872

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Becomes Exhibit P240, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

 3             I think that's all, Ms. Hochhauser.

 4             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Yes.  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 6             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 7             Your Honour, if we might go into private session, I would proceed

 8     to read a summary of the witness's evidence.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but in private session it doesn't make sense

10     because it's for the public.  If the public is unable to hear it, then it

11     makes no sense to do it.

12             Please consider it and move on for the time being.

13             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Okay.  So if we could go into private session,

14     please.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

16                           [Private session]

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 2873











11 Pages 2873-2878 redacted. Private session.















Page 2879

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13                           [Open session]

14             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

16                           [Video-clip played]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Hochhauser.

18             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Thank you.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Before you ask any questions, a transcript has been

20     uploaded into e-court, and if you want us to ignore the text, then I

21     think that should not be part of the evidence.

22             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  We'll have it -- we'll remove it, Judge.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's understood.

24             Please proceed.

25             MS. HOCHHAUSER:

Page 2880

 1        Q.   Sir, do you recognise the location as shown in that video?

 2        A.   Yes, I do.

 3        Q.   And --

 4        A.   It was an area at Manjaca where the POWs were accommodated.

 5        Q.   Does that clip accurately reflect the living conditions and

 6     appearance at that camp?

 7        A.   What we could see was real footage.  That is how things -- what

 8     things looked like at Manjaca.  There's nothing to add or take away.

 9     It's another question as to how the choice was made as to what to film.

10     But, yes, this footage originated from Manjaca.

11        Q.   And the people that were shown in the clip that were -- that we

12     saw, they were detainees at Manjaca camp?

13        A.   The people we saw in the footage were prisoners of war located at

14     Manjaca.  The person in uniform walking around was the commander of the

15     camp, Mr. Popovic.

16        Q.   And does that clip accurately reflect the physical conditions of

17     the people being held at Manjaca?

18        A.   Yes, it does.  You could see it well.  The people are positively

19     -- at Manjaca, this was filmed at Manjaca, and that is how things were at

20     the moment the footage was made.  As to when those people arrived and how

21     long they had been at Manjaca before the footage was made, that's

22     something I can't say.

23             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Your Honours, I'm offering this into evidence --

24     tendering this exhibit into evidence.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the number would be?

Page 2881

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 22631A becomes Exhibit P243,

 2     Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  P243 is admitted into evidence, but without any

 4     attached transcript of text spoken.

 5             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Okay.  My understanding is it should already be

 6     removed, or is in the process.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Once it is admitted, I think it's

 8     Madam Registrar who's in control.  When it's not yet admitted, then the

 9     parties still can change the content.  It's clear what should be in

10     evidence.

11             Please proceed.

12             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  If I may just have one moment.

13                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

14             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Your Honours, thank you for your patience.  That

15     concludes my examination of this witness.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. Hochhauser.

17             Mr. Stojanovic, is it you that will cross-examine the witness?

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.  That

19     is correct.  I am to lead this witness.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness RM051, you will now be cross-examined by

21     Mr. Stojanovic.  Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

22             Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

23                           Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

24        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, sir.  My name is

25     Miodrag Stojanovic, and together with my colleagues, I represent General

Page 2882

 1     Ratko Mladic.  I'd like to go through some of your documents, and I have

 2     a few questions for you.

 3        A.   Good morning.

 4        Q.   The first thing I wanted to ask you is this:  Do you recall

 5     having given a statement to the Prosecutor's office here at the Tribunal

 6     on the 10th of April, 2008 with regards to these events?

 7        A.   Yes, I remember that.

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, by your leave,

 9     could we provide a clean hard copy of the statement to the witness, and

10     I'd kindly ask that it be with him throughout the testimony because I

11     will have some questions.

12        Q.   Sir, we are in open session now.  I will put some questions to

13     you, and I would kindly ask you not to refer to your position at the time

14     in any way.

15             I'm interested in this:  As of the 4th of April, 1992, you were

16     in the area of Sarajevo as a member of the then-JNA; is that correct?

17        A.   It is not.  I was in the area of Sarajevo between -- as early as

18     the 2nd of December, 1991 when I was relocated there with my unit and the

19     command of the 5th Military District from Zagreb to Sarajevo.

20        Q.   And as of the 4th of April, 1992, you were deployed at the

21     forward command post at Pale; is that correct?

22        A.   Yes, that is completely correct.

23        Q.   You worked in the same body that you stayed with during your work

24     in the 1st Krajina Corps; is that correct?

25        A.   Yes.  I was with the same military organ in Zagreb and anywhere

Page 2883

 1     else throughout.

 2        Q.   On the 3rd of June, 1992, you were transferred to the 1st Krajina

 3     Corps and were moved to Banja Luka; correct?

 4        A.   That is completely correct.

 5        Q.   During your stay in and around Sarajevo, were you ever in a

 6     position to meet General Mladic?

 7        A.   Yes, I was.  I met General Mladic in Crna Rijeka.  I believe it

 8     was on the 12th of May, 1992.  We were there together until the 3rd of

 9     June, when I was transferred to Banja Luka.

10        Q.   Would you mind sharing your experience and your view with the

11     Court about General Mladic at the time and his position.  What kind of

12     officer was he?

13        A.   It is not fully appropriate for a junior officer to address a

14     senior officer, but now that you ask the question before this Tribunal, I

15     can tell you this:

16             In Crna Rijeka, I was only there for a few days with General

17     Mladic, and I wasn't in his immediate environment though and I did not

18     receive tasks from him because I was General Tolimir's subordinate.  What

19     I could observe, though, in the course of those few days was that he was

20     way too busy.  Every morning at 7.00 a.m., he flew by helicopter from

21     Crna Rijeka to close to Sarajevo to negotiate the release of cadets from

22     Sarajevo.  That was his main preoccupation while I was there.

23        Q.   On the 15th of June, 1992, you assumed your duties at Manjaca,

24     pursuant to an order of the commander of the 1st Krajina Corps.  Is the

25     date correct?

Page 2884

 1        A.   Yes, around the 15th.  That is when I assumed my duties at

 2     Manjaca.

 3        Q.   I would like us to have a look together --

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, before that, just a

 5     brief instruction, if I may, and it may be useful to move into private

 6     session for that reason.  I have to be cautious.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

 8                           [Private session]

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 2885











11 Page 2885 redacted. Private session.















Page 2886

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7                           [Open session]

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10             First, the transcript of prior testimony of Witness Vulliamy.

11     The prior testimony of Witness Vulliamy was MFI'd as P199 due to the fact

12     that there's no B/C/S translation available.  The Defence also asked for

13     further guidance on providing B/C/S translations for prior testimony.

14     Where no B/C/S transcription or translation of transcripts of prior

15     testimony is available, the Defence has been provided with B/C/S

16     audio-visual recordings instead as part of the Prosecution's disclosure

17     under Rule 66(A)(ii).

18             Under those circumstances, the Chamber does not require that

19     transcripts of prior testimony are transcribed or translated into B/C/S.

20             P199 is admitted into evidence.

21                           [The witness takes the stand]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, you tell us whether we have to

23     return into private session or whether we can hear the evidence in open

24     session.

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I think we can go back into open

Page 2887

 1     session, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  We are in open session at this moment, so we'll

 3     remain in open session.

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Sir, we left it off at the moment when you confirmed that on the

 6     15th of June, 1992 you assumed duties at Manjaca.  And now I would kindly

 7     ask you to look at paragraph 10 of your statement that you have in front

 8     of you.

 9             In that paragraph, you say, inter alia, that you did not belong

10     to the camp management.  You were not in a decision-making position.  All

11     you could do was to make suggestions and proposals.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, before the witness answers this

13     question, I invited you to have the statement on our screens so that we

14     could do without a hard copy, but I have not heard any instruction to

15     have the statement on our screens, although not to be broadcasted to the

16     public.

17             Could you give the number to Madam Registrar?

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the counsel, please.

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to call up 1D269,

20     which should not be publicly broadcast.  Let us look at paragraph 10,

21     please.  Your Honours, I believe that we can proceed now.

22        Q.   In this paragraph, you say:  "I was not part of the command of

23     the camp.  I could not make decisions.  I could only make suggestions."

24             Please clarify, for the benefit of the Court, what does it mean

25     when you say that you did not belong to the command of the camp?

Page 2888

 1        A.   I apologise.  Are we in private session?

 2        Q.   We are in open session, so be cautious, please.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  What we see on our screen now is not broadcast

 4     to the public.  But, please, if you think that your answer would

 5     identify -- would reveal your identity, then please ask for private

 6     session.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that my answer will

 8     necessitate that.

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, bearing that in

10     mind, I would kindly ask the Chamber to move into private session.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

12                           [Private session]

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 2889











11 Page 2889 redacted. Private session.
















Page 2890

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17                           [Open session]

18             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

20             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Sir, let's look at paragraph 18 in your statement where you say

22     that the Manjaca camp was well organised.

23             What did you mean by that?  What did you mean when you said that

24     the Manjaca camp was well organised?

25        A.   Well, my claim may be subjective, admittedly.  However, if one

Page 2891

 1     could assess the regularity of all the camps in Bosnia-Herzegovina,

 2     Manjaca would occupy a very high first place.  Some people don't like

 3     that, or cannot understand that, because of the reports in the media.

 4     However, what I saw, what I knew, and what we did at Manjaca, I would say

 5     that Manjaca was one of the best regulated camps in Bosnia.

 6             I could corroborate that by the way people were received in the

 7     camp, by the attitude towards the detainees, the frequent visits of

 8     international organisations, the daily visits of journalists, the

 9     International Red Cross.  There was a nutritionist who paid visits to the

10     camp every day from 9.00 to 5.00 in the afternoon.  These are the claims

11     that I stand by.  What I said then I still adhere by, and I will always

12     maintain the same position.

13             I had the good fortune to witness that my efforts were adopted by

14     Commander Popovic and my subordinates, and we tried our best to be as

15     humane towards those people, because we truly believed that those -- all

16     those people had to leave the camp on their two feet, healthy and alive.

17        Q.   Thank you.  And now can we pay attention to paragraph 19, as well

18     as to paragraph 20 in your statement.  And let's provide some

19     clarification about the attitude of the civilian police who brought

20     detainees to Manjaca and the relationship between the civilian police and

21     yourselves who had a duty to take the prisoners over.

22             Let's take things one at a time.  From what moment did you, as a

23     professional, believe that a detainee started to become a custodian of

24     the Manjaca camp command?

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The question, as interpreted, was:  "From what

Page 2892

 1     moment did you, as a professional, believe that a detainee started to

 2     become a custodian of the Manjaca camp command."  I don't understand the

 3     question.  That's how you were interpreted.  I don't understand how a

 4     detainee becomes a custodian of a camp.

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  From which moment

 6     did the camp become the custodian of any particular detainee?

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the question is

 8     the result of paragraph 20 in the witness's statement.  It says:  "We

 9     would not consider these prisoners as our own prisoners until they went

10     through the admission procedure and until the moment they were entered

11     into the ledgers."  This is the sentence authored by the witness.

12        Q.   My question was this:  You were a professional.  What did you

13     base your conclusion on?  And what did you imply by that sentence?

14             Could you provide some sort of an explanation for the benefit of

15     the Trial Chamber?  Thank you.

16        A.   We adopted a normal logic, according to which a detainee became a

17     detainee at Manjaca once he was officially admitted.  We had a commission

18     that admitted prisoners into Manjaca.  That commission comprised two

19     military police officers, a doctor who was also a detainee, and one of my

20     men.

21             After a complete checkup and after the registration in medical

22     books and in the ledgers, groups of ten detainees would be taken into

23     their future accommodation.  And from that moment on, they would be

24     considered as detainees at Manjaca.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Before that moment, before they were registered and

Page 2893

 1     physically taken over, in whose custody were those future detainees, in

 2     terms of their physical security and the safety of their person and their

 3     property?

 4        A.   As you may have seen, Manjaca camp is on a mountain.  It's quite

 5     isolated, and people were mostly brought over by trucks or buses.  MUP

 6     members were in charge of bringing them in, if they were transferred from

 7     other collection centres.  In principle, those were MUP members until the

 8     moment when they handed them over to us.  Those people were in the

 9     custody of MUP members, i.e., of the MUP.

10        Q.   Thank you.  There will be more about that in the documents that I

11     intend to show you.

12             You have already spoken about something that I wish to ask you

13     next.  If it occurred that one of the future detainees came into harm's

14     way during the transport and if you learnt about that, I'm asking you

15     this:  As a soldier, what would have been your duty?  What were you

16     supposed to do in such a case?

17        A.   We admitted only living people into the camp.  If one of them

18     died during the transport, obviously we did not admit such people.  We

19     did not have a service that would be in charge of burials.  We would

20     return those dead people to be transported, and we -- we had them

21     transported back, and they were escorted by the same people who had

22     brought them in.

23        Q.   Through your regular activities in the form of daily reports, you

24     recorded such personal knowledge about this possible commission of

25     crimes.  You did report that to your superiors.  Am I correct in saying

Page 2894

 1     that?

 2        A.   By all means, that would be the most important thing that would

 3     happen on that day, and, of course, I'd include that in my daily report

 4     and make my superior aware of that, and he probably reported up the chain

 5     of command, all the way to the top.

 6        Q.   Will you agree with me that, according to regulations from 1992,

 7     dealing with members of the police or paramilitaries was within the

 8     civilian judiciary, not the military judiciary, in Republika Srpska?

 9        A.   That's right.  We've clarified that several times here before

10     this Court.  That's the way it was.  If a member of the MUP would be

11     outside the army, then his misdeeds would be dealt with by a civilian

12     court.

13        Q.   Thank you.  You personally, in view of the position that you held

14     - and we're not going to mention it - had no way of knowing of whether

15     information about such misdeeds committed during transportation were

16     provided to the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska through

17     reports.  You don't have any knowledge about that.  Would you agree?

18        A.   I don't have any such information.  However, it would be logical,

19     and I think that my department and my immediate superior did that,

20     nevertheless.

21        Q.   Will we agree that, according to the system of subordination, the

22     superior of your superior, whose name you mentioned here, was

23     Mr. Stevilovic, the security organ in the 1st Krajina Corps; is that

24     correct?

25        A.   I immediately moved onto this other person because Stevilovic was

Page 2895

 1     killed on the 5th of July.

 2        Q.   Then this would be the right moment to ask you about this.  You

 3     said that he was killed on the 5th of July.  Would it be correct to say

 4     that he was killed in the territory that was under the control of the

 5     Army of Republika Srpska, in the depth of the territory of the

 6     Republika Srpska?  Would that be correct?

 7        A.   Yes, that is correct.  He was killed on the 5th of July, 1992,

 8     near Kotor Varos.  He was ambushed there by a roadblock by the HVO, and

 9     Stevilovic was killed on that occasion.  Also Markovic and another

10     soldier who was in the vehicle.  Practically, they were killed.

11        Q.   In the Manjaca camp, as you've testified in relation to these

12     events, all the way up to its disbandment, two detainees, Filipovic and

13     Bender, saw their tragic deaths; is that correct?

14        A.   Yes, that is correct.  And, in a way, I was astounded by that,

15     surprised by it, saddened by it, because I thought that that kind of

16     thing could not happen in view of the organisation that we had there.  It

17     did happen.  It was explained in a way within half an hour.  The

18     perpetrators were identified.  An on-site investigation was carried out

19     by the MUP authorities and the court authorities.  The pathologist did

20     his job.  And it was a bit late, but, nevertheless, the perpetrators were

21     prosecuted, and they were sentenced to very serious time in prison; 14

22     years, I believe.

23        Q.   That's the next question I'm going to put to you.  We're also

24     going to use a document.  However, now that you've opened the subject,

25     you do know that before the court in Banja Luka these persons were

Page 2896

 1     prosecuted, and they were convicted.  We are talking about several

 2     persons; right?

 3        A.   That's right.  It is four men, and three of them were sentenced

 4     to long-term prison sentences.

 5        Q.   Within the scope of your own authority, when you found out about

 6     this crime, you did everything that was your duty on the basis of the

 7     rules of service, based on the Geneva Conventions, and you informed all

 8     the relevant authorities about this; is that correct?

 9        A.   Everything was done.  We did whatever this kind of thing merits.

10     That is to say, an on-site investigation team arrived, a pathologist

11     arrived.  The bodies were handed over.  We thought that the case had been

12     resolved, as far as we were concerned, and then other services dealt with

13     the funeral arrangements and the prosecution and everything else.

14     However, we, at Manjaca, did whatever we could at that very first moment.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             MR. STOJANOVIC:  [Interpretation] I'd now like to ask that we

17     look at document 65 ter 08779.  08779.

18             While it is being brought up in e-court, Your Honours, may I say

19     that this is a daily report.  I would just like to ask -- very well.  It

20     is a daily report of the 26th of June, 1992.

21        Q.   Sir, in the direct examination, there were questions as to

22     whether criminal proceedings were instituted against the persons who were

23     in the Manjaca centre.  I would like to ask you to focus on paragraph 4

24     of this report in which it says, inter alia:  "All prisoners have been

25     processed in the Bosanska Dubica public security station and criminal

Page 2897

 1     reports have been submitted to the basic public prosecutor's office in

 2     Bosanska Dubica.  They were brought to the Manjaca camp only for

 3     accommodation and guarding purposes."

 4             Do you see that?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   My question is:  Could you please tell the Court what this means,

 7     from a procedural point of view, that criminal reports were filed against

 8     certain persons?

 9        A.   When a criminal report is filed against someone, that means, from

10     a procedural point of view, that this criminal report provides all the

11     evidence, for and against, in terms of this person having committed a

12     certain crime, and that would be it.

13        Q.   Would you agree with me that there is a pre-criminal proceeding

14     that takes place before a criminal report is filed?  A suspect interview

15     is conducted, evidence is collected, and all of this is provided along

16     with the criminal report, stating that there are reasonable grounds to

17     believe that a crime had been committed.

18        A.   I fully agree with your statement.

19             Let me just add something.  The Prosecutor asked me whether I

20     knew of any case when these persons who were in Manjaca were prosecuted

21     before a court of law, and my answer was, I don't know.  However, these

22     are pre-criminal or pre-trial proceedings.  So your question is quite

23     different in relation to that, and my answer is that I agree with you.

24        Q.   Thank you.  That would be the essence of my question.

25             So the Law on Criminal Procedure that was in force in that year,

Page 2898

 1     in 1992, stated that we had an investigative judge and investigative

 2     proceedings, and then pre-criminal/pre-trial proceedings would involve

 3     operative work, collecting evidence, and the basic suspicion that would

 4     be contained in the report.  And then it is up to the investigative judge

 5     and the prosecutor to file for an investigation to take place; is that

 6     correct?

 7        A.   Since I was studying criminalistics and criminology at the time,

 8     that is exactly how things were, as you stated them.  So I fully agree

 9     with what you said.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, could I seek some clarification.

11             Earlier, you were asked about any criminal proceedings.  It even

12     included any type of action taken against any of these people who were

13     suspected of criminal action.

14             I did understand that question and your answers to be in relation

15     to those who you investigated, either on the basis of the material that

16     was provided to you, but where you took an active part in the

17     investigation of crimes committed by the detainees.

18             Was that correctly understood?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understood Madam Prosecutor's

20     question to pertain to all the people who were in Manjaca.  I understood

21     the question to be whether I know whether anybody had been prosecuted for

22     what they did before they came to Manjaca.  However -- and my answer was

23     that there were no court proceedings that I had been aware of.  Court

24     proceedings.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now I do understand that the document that

Page 2899

 1     we're looking at at this moment is about persons for which your role was

 2     limited to keep them in detention, and that others had investigated

 3     potential crimes and others were responsible for reporting and taking

 4     action.

 5             Is that correctly understood?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.  In this document, it

 7     says that criminal reports were filed against these persons by the MUP

 8     organs from Bosanska Dubica and that there's nothing for us to do there.

 9     Or, rather, that they were there in order to be kept there, and to be

10     there until they're called by a court of law or someone.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So we had two categories of prisoners:  Those

12     who you investigated, where you were responsible for investigating any

13     suspicions against them, and others for which you just provided

14     accommodation, not being involved in any way in the investigations

15     conducted against them.

16             Is that correctly understood?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.  You understood it as

18     I meant it.  That was my experience, and that's how it was.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

20             Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

21             Yes, Judge Moloto has one or more questions for you.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You indicated a little earlier, sir, at page 35,

23     lines 18 to 23, that these people who came to Manjaca and about whom your

24     answer to the Prosecutor was that you were not aware of any court

25     proceedings, is that people who had been investigated before they came to

Page 2900

 1     you.

 2             My question to you is:  Of those that were investigated by you,

 3     were there any court proceedings instituted as a result of any or all of

 4     them?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We filed criminal reports for about

 6     ten people from Manjaca.  These were active-duty military officers of the

 7     JNA who had deserted and joined the enemy force.  They were taken

 8     prisoner, and they were brought there.  And then we filed criminal

 9     reports with the military court in Banja Luka.

10             On several occasions, we also took them to this military

11     investigative prison.  However, an indictment was never issued.  There

12     was no judgement ultimately, so they were brought back to Manjaca.

13             Let me just explain this a bit.  This is exactly the way it was.

14     This was in the case of some ten persons who were former JNA officers who

15     had deserted from the JNA, who joined the enemy force, who were taken

16     prisoner, and then they were brought to Manjaca, and then we filed these

17     criminal reports against them.  And several times they were taken to this

18     military investigative prison in Banja Luka, but they were returned.  And

19     I don't know -- actually, to be more specific, I don't know whether an

20     indictment was issued.  However, I know that there was no judgement that

21     was passed, and I know that they went to third countries, together with

22     all the other detainees.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

24             With regard to those who were prisoners of war - in other words,

25     who came from what you may have regarded as enemy army, not those who

Page 2901

 1     deserted - were there any that were charged or against whom court

 2     proceedings were instituted as a result of your investigations?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Previous translation continues] ... thank you so

 5     much.

 6             Yes, thank you.

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I have one more

 8     question regarding this document.

 9        Q.   Sir, do you know that at that time, in June 1992, whether, as a

10     matter of fact, Bosanska Dubica did or did not have a prison the size

11     which could accommodate such numbers of people?

12        A.   I don't know that.  But if I try to reason logically, and based

13     on overall information, I suppose they did not have a prison of that

14     size.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Let me conclude this topic with this question:  While

16     working there, save for the ten you mentioned, were there -- did you send

17     any other criminal reports to the competent judicial bodies?

18        A.   In relation to Manjaca?

19        Q.   Yes.

20        A.   Save for about a dozen reports for the active military personnel,

21     I did not submit any other criminal reports.  I submitted Official Notes,

22     though, and the statements taken from the people we interviewed.  That

23     material was then sent for further assessment and potential processing.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have in e-court

Page 2902

 1     65 ter 03057.

 2             Your Honour, while waiting for it, I wanted to say that --

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  [Previous translation continues] ...

 4     Your Honours.

 5             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] This is --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Just a moment.

 7             Since the previous translation continued, Madam Registrar, you

 8     told us, may I take it, that this document was admitted as P218.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

11             Please proceed.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Which document, Madam Registrar?  I'm sorry.  Is

13     it 08779?

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 030507, that was called now and is on

15     our screens, is admitted as P218, Your Honours.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  And should not be broadcasted.

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  Perhaps

19     I may continue now with the document.

20        Q.   In paragraph 1, Witness, please have a look.  It reads that 29

21     people from the villages of Velagici and Pudin Han were processed in

22     Kljuc municipality.  "Light was shed on the role of certain persons in

23     the organisation and the launching of an attack on the police patrol held

24     check-point as well as on the military column in the Busije location."

25             Can you see that?

Page 2903

 1        A.   I can.

 2        Q.   It continues:  "The circle is widening and our processing is

 3     adjusting accordingly."

 4             My question is this:  What kind of information did you obtain in

 5     your operative work concerning the events in Velagici and Pudin Han that

 6     are referred to in this daily report?

 7        A.   It was about an attack on a military column at Busije.  It was

 8     returning from Knin.  I think they were mostly young soldiers.  The event

 9     took place before I arrived from Crna Rijeka.  It was still being cleared

10     by way of interviews with people at Manjaca.

11             During the attack on the military column, five soldiers were

12     killed.  It was most probably done by the people from the villages of

13     Velagici and Pudin Han near Kljuc.  They set up an ambush at Busije, and

14     when the column arrived, they opened fire at the vehicles, killing five

15     soldiers.  I don't know many details about it since I wasn't there at the

16     time, but things were being slowly cleared up.

17        Q.   Does it also refer to the part of paragraph 1 where there is a

18     mention of light being shed on the role of certain persons in the

19     organisation and the launching of an attack on a check-point manned by a

20     police patrol?

21        A.   Yes.

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

23             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24        Q.   Let us go to paragraph 4 of the report, then, which reads:  "On

25     order of Colonel Anicic, prisoners Ahmet Hodzic and Ismet Focak from

Page 2904

 1     Sanski Most, who had been of considerable help to the military organs

 2     during the confiscation of weapons, have been released."

 3             The first question:  Please tell the Court who is Colonel Anicic?

 4        A.   I don't know him personally, but Colonel Anicic was either

 5     commander or the assistant commander for morale of the Sanska Brigade.

 6     He intervened asking that the two men be released from Manjaca.

 7     Irrespective of the fact they were brought there, they had significantly

 8     assisted the soldiers and military organs in Sanski Most.  Thus, he

 9     believed that they should be released, and it was done.

10        Q.   Was this an exception or are you familiar with more examples of

11     that nature?

12        A.   I wouldn't say it was an exception, but it didn't happen often.

13     There were a few cases of similar nature while the camp at Manjaca

14     existed.  Some officers intervened, asking that this or that person be

15     released as they had been captured or imprisoned by mistake.  Perhaps

16     people from the police asked for it or something of the kind.  There

17     weren't many such cases.  Perhaps another two or three.

18        Q.   Let me ask you this:  Concerning the system of control over the

19     camp or centre, since it seems we have a semantic problem, up to whom was

20     it to determine who would be released in such cases, from Manjaca?

21        A.   That's a good question for my sake, too, because I was neither

22     outside nor above the system of command.  This document is phrased in

23     such a way that one may conclude it was up to me to decide.

24             This intervention by Anicic and the release of the two people

25     went through the regular command channel.  I believe the assistant

Page 2905

 1     commander for morale, Colonel Vukelic, requested that personally.  He was

 2     from the command of the 1st Krajina Corps.  He ordered, in a way, to see

 3     whether we had any additional information on the people and to release

 4     them.  And this wasn't done by me.  I told you I was not part of the

 5     command system or the decision-making system.  The camp commander put it

 6     all in writing and made a decision to have them released.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, could I seek clarification about the

 8     word "release".

 9             When you say people were released, and earlier we looked at a

10     document - perhaps you remember - you said some people were considered to

11     be extremists by those who brought them to Manjaca but you thought could

12     be released.

13             Now, if we're talking about "release," were then people released

14     and free to go home again, or were they led to another place and not free

15     to choose their own destination, when, as you said it, released?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the case of those people who

17     were released from the camp and then went onto third countries, they were

18     simply released as part of the procedure.  They were released and it

19     could be interpreted in a different way, as if they only went outside the

20     parameter.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  What I'd like to know is whether they were

22     told, What do you want?  To go home or to go to a third country?  What do

23     you want to do?  Or were they just released, to be transferred to a third

24     country?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The International Committee of the

Page 2906

 1     Red Cross interviewed everyone, and they had their statements about

 2     whether they wanted to leave, and where, which third countries.  As

 3     regards -- that -- that is regarding the group departure via Karlovac.

 4             In the case of these two -- perhaps I misunderstood.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The large number of people, as you said, that

 6     were released, were they ever given an opportunity just to return home,

 7     to their own homes, where they came from?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Regarding the group departure of

 9     the 700 people?  Is that what you're asking me about?

10             The International Committee of the Red Cross took them to third

11     countries.  Their first station, though, was in Karlovac, and there they

12     could decide whether they would go on to another country or return home,

13     but we don't know that.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you give them an opportunity to go home?  We

15     have seen in your report that you said that many of them were no

16     combatants, had no arms, were not in uniform.  Apparently in this report

17     you state clearly that there's no reasonable suspicion of them being

18     criminals or having committed crimes.

19             Did you offer them to go home before they were put in the hands

20     of the Red Cross to be brought wherever?  Did you say, You're innocent.

21     What do you want?  Do you want to go home?  Then please, if I could say

22     so, take the next bus home.  Of course, there were no buses.  I am aware

23     of that.  But did you offer them to go wherever they wanted to go before

24     the Red Cross took care of them?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It mostly happened with the cases

Page 2907

 1     of people who were selected and were younger than 18 or older than 65.

 2     But, still, we didn't release them just like that.  It was a state of

 3     war.  You cannot just leave them around Manjaca in an isolated area.

 4     There was a procedure in place to hand them over.  We usually handed them

 5     over to the Merhamet, the Muslim humanitarian organisation, and they took

 6     them away, the people we had released.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  So you say that happened with the ones below the age

 8     of 18 and the elderly but not for the rest?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And the sick.  Some 90 of them were

10     pardoned and sent to Geneva for treatment.  So the young, the old, and

11     the sick.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  But the able-bodied men who had not been combatants,

13     who had not worn a uniform, who had no arms, were not given an

14     opportunity to just return to their homes through whatever procedure but

15     were given in the hands of the Red Cross.

16             Did I understand you well?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is how it was, yes.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

19             Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

20             By the way, Mr. Stojanovic, you earlier indicated - and I thought

21     I'd wait for a second - when you talked about the persons which were

22     responsible for the death of Filipovic and --

23             MR. STOJANOVIC:  Bender.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Bender.  You said:  "We're also going to use a

25     document."

Page 2908

 1             Is that still to come?  Because I've not -- or is one of the

 2     documents you've used, until now, related to that?

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.  We are yet to

 4     come to that document.  It's one of the daily reports, and I will advise

 5     you of the particular document, as I will have a number of questions.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then I will be patient.

 7             But I think we first should take a break.

 8             If the curtains are down, the witness can be escorted out of the

 9     courtroom, and we take a break of 20 minutes.

10             Mr. Stojanovic, could you, meanwhile, tell us how much time you

11     would still need?

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] In keeping with what I had

13     announced, I believe I will take two and a half hours in total.  Thus, I

14     believe I can conclude before the end of hearing today.

15                           [The witness stands down]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We'll take a break, and we'll resume at

17     quarter past 12.00.

18                           --- Recess taken at 11.54 a.m.

19                           --- On resuming at 12.23 p.m.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

21             Meanwhile, I address the accused briefly.  We are now re-starting

22     with a delay of eight to nine minutes.  The Chamber was informed that

23     this is due to you visiting the toilet, Mr. Mladic.

24             You are advised to go to the toilet at the beginning of the

25     break.  We scheduled the breaks early at the request of the Defence --

Page 2909

 1     the short breaks at the request of the Defence.  If the same would happen

 2     again, and if you have not used the opportunity to go to the toilet at

 3     the beginning of the break, then the Chamber will just start and proceed.

 4     Although we have considered whether or not to deduce the time now from

 5     time from cross-examination, we have decided not to do that yet.  This is

 6     what I wanted to convey to you.

 7             We'll wait for the witness to enter the courtroom.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.  Just a

 9     moment.  Lukic.

10                           [Defence counsel confer]

11                           [The witness takes the stand]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Can the curtains be pulled up again.

13             Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.

14             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

15             I would like to call up P215.  This is another daily report

16     issued on the 1st of July, 1992.

17        Q.   Sir, let's look at the last paragraph together.  In it, it says

18     that a certain number of detainees --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Just a moment, Mr. Stojanovic.  The document is

20     admitted under seal.  You should have --

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  I don't think

22     that my questions arising from that document would comprise the identity

23     of the witness.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, the document should not have been

25     broadcasted if it is under seal, and you should have mentioned it when

Page 2910

 1     calling the document.  I'm not saying that you should go into private

 2     session but that you should have given notice of that fact when calling

 3     the document.

 4             Please proceed.

 5             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honour.

 6        Q.   In this document, it says a certain number of detainees would

 7     like to volunteer to go to the front line to prove their mettle.  "It is

 8     still difficult to ascertain the exact number but this could be

 9     ascertained on the spot and if called up by the organ for morale."

10             What is this about?  Could you tell the Trial Chamber?  Was this

11     idea ever implemented on the ground?

12        A.   Our operative intelligence were bored in the camp.  According to

13     our operative intelligence, the detainees were bored in the camp.  That's

14     why we wanted to go to the front line to escape the enclosed space.  We

15     didn't know what their number was, and I can't see it in the document.

16     This was forwarded to the organ for moral guidance.  This never came to

17     fruition.  Nobody was ever sent to the front line from the camp.  This

18     was just an initiative of sorts which never came to fruition.

19        Q.   What was your impression?  Was it really the will of those people

20     or was it forced upon them?

21        A.   I really don't know what to say.  I don't have a position on

22     that.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             MR. STOJANOVIC:  Let us look at P219.  It's another document

25     under seal.

Page 2911

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I seek one clarification.

 2             What were they supposed to do at the battle-fields?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this would be my

 4     interpretation of the document and of what I can remember:  Those people

 5     were loyal to the Serb forces.  There were ten Serbs up there in Manjaca

 6     camp.  Five of them volunteered to go to the battle-field, and I suppose

 7     that this can be interpreted as some Muslims also wanting to go to the

 8     battle-field, as any other combatant.

 9             That's how I interpret things.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  And then to fight the Muslim forces?  Is that your

11     interpretation?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You know who the warring parties

13     were in Bosnia and Herzegovina:  Muslims against the Serbs, the Muslims

14     against the Serbs and Croats, Croats against the Serbs, and Muslims

15     against the Muslims.  So everybody fought everybody else.  They would be

16     part of our forces.  And then whether they would have been used against

17     the Muslims or the Croats, I really can't tell you.  I don't know.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20        Q.   Let's look at the following document.  This is a daily report

21     which was issued on the 5th of July, 1992.

22             In paragraph 1, it says:  "... a group of 268 prisoners of

23     war" --

24             THE REGISTRAR:  I believe it's P227.

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] P215.  And I have the right

Page 2912

 1     document on the screen, both in B/C/S as well as in English.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Document 219, Mr. Stojanovic, not 215.  215, you

 3     are now done with.

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.  P219.  I

 5     apologise.  P219.  The document on the screen is P219.  I apologise, and

 6     I thank you, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is also under seal.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The previous one, it could have been unclear

 9     on the record.  To that extent, I -- although it is listed as under seal,

10     it does not appear on the record, although I may have said that it was

11     under seal.  This one certainly was under seal.

12             Now, Ms. Hochhauser, in your description of the document of 219,

13     P219, you say it's dated the 5th of June.  This document, however, bears

14     a different date.  Is that your mistake or is there anything else?

15             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Your Honour, actually, that is my mistake in the

16     description because I can see that the ERN numbers match.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So, therefore, it should be 5th of July.

18             Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20        Q.   Just briefly, sir, in the first paragraph, you say that a group

21     of prisoners from Sanski Most has been completely processed.  Official

22     records have been made.  The statements have been taken, which is

23     sufficient paperwork to submit criminal reports against the individuals

24     who merit to have criminal reports against them issued, which shall be

25     done by the authorised officials from the SJB Sanski Most.

Page 2913

 1             My question:  Within the system that you were part of at the

 2     time, who was the one who was supposed to look at your Official Notes and

 3     issue a criminal report and send it to the authorised prosecutor's

 4     office?

 5        A.   If you are referring specifically to this paragraph here, it is

 6     absolutely clear that criminal reports would be submitted by the

 7     individuals from the SJB Sanski Most.  And if you're asking me in general

 8     terms, as to who issued criminal reports against people at Manjaca, if we

 9     conducted interviews and if we took statements and collected evidence,

10     then it would be us who would have done that.

11             So what is your specific question?

12        Q.   My question should be worded in the following way to be more

13     clear:  It arises from this report, if my understanding of it is proper,

14     that criminal reports will be submitted, drafted and submitted, by the

15     authorised officials from the Sanski Most SJB; right?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And then in the following paragraph that I would like to draw

18     your attention to, you say, while mentioning persons between the ages of

19     60 and 80 [as interpreted], that they should possibly be returned to

20     their original places of residence?

21             Can you see that?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   What was the idea of the author of this report?  Where were these

24     people supposed to return to when they left the Manjaca centre?

25        A.   They should have been taken over by the Sanski Most SJB if they

Page 2914

 1     were from Sanski Most, which I see that they were.  So they would be

 2     taken over by the officials and returned to their homes, people aged over

 3     60 and people under 18.  Those people are not subject to military

 4     obligation, if there is no evidence that they had committed a crime, for

 5     example, if they had -- had not killed a member of the army.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Does that mean that those people who had undergone

 7     triage and it was established that they did not commit any crimes, were

 8     they allowed, or would they have been allowed to choose their place of

 9     residence in the future?  Would they have been allowed to return to their

10     original place of residence?

11        A.   Yes.  Those persons did not merit to be treated as prisoners of

12     war, according to our assessments and according to the information

13     available to us.  That's why we suggested that the Sanski Most MUP should

14     have come to pick them up and return them to their homes.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And now let's look at P227.

17     Again, under seal.

18        Q.   I would kindly ask you to pay attention to paragraph 2 in this

19     document.  The date on the document is 8 July 1992.

20             In this document, it is stated that during transport from Sanski

21     Most to Manjaca, 24 prisoners died and that the probable cause was lack

22     of oxygen; that such conduct was extremely inhumane and unprofessional;

23     and that the people who died were not admitted and they would not be

24     considered as ever having been prisoners of war.

25             Is this the confirmation of your previous words when you spoke

Page 2915

 1     about those whom you considered as prisoners of war admitted to the

 2     Manjaca camp?

 3        A.   Yes, quite.  This is very clearly spelled out in this document,

 4     and that's how things were.

 5        Q.   In all that, when we're talking about the army and trying to

 6     defend the army, before you admitted such a person whom somebody had

 7     brought over from Sanski Most, Kljuc, Prijedor, or Kotor Varos, did you

 8     have any idea as to whether such a person met with the Geneva Conventions

 9     standards when it comes to him being treated or being considered as a

10     prisoner of war?

11        A.   I must say that when they first presented themselves, we admitted

12     them through the work of our commission in all the cases.  If that person

13     came with a note or a document, that note or that document would be

14     studied in order to create a picture about the person.  If there are no

15     such documents, we interviewed our future detainees, and it depended on

16     the skill of the interviewee how much they would be able to get from --

17     from the interview, how much they would be able to get from the

18     interviewee.

19             But, in my view, it was not important what crime they committed.

20     If they were brought over to the camp, if they were alive and well, they

21     would be admitted.  Nobody was turned out -- turned down.  Nobody was

22     refused admission.  Everybody was admitted.  Then we interviewed them, we

23     processed them later, and then we would see how things transpired.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, could I ask one clarifying question.

25             If I look at the description of, as it is said, "the large

Page 2916

 1     majority of prisoners having no weapons, nor having actively participated

 2     in the organisation or the implementation of the armed rebellion,"

 3     doesn't that just simply make them civilians?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You know what?  People would say

 5     that they did not carry arms, that they did not participate in fighting,

 6     that they were taken from their fields, but that did not necessarily have

 7     to be the case.  It was very difficult for me up there, if we're talking

 8     about me or anybody else from the camp, it was very difficult for us to

 9     guess whether people were involved or not.  It was a camp where people

10     were guarded, pending a decision of a higher command or the president

11     himself.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  But that's not what the documents says.  The

13     document does not say it is characteristic that they told us that they

14     had no weapons.  No.  The document says it is characteristic, as was the

15     case with previously processed prisoners.  So that it is similar to those

16     already processed, that a large majority of prisoners brought to the

17     Manjaca camp had no weapons, nor have they actively participated in the

18     organisation or implementation of the armed rebellion.  This fact makes

19     it difficult to collect and compile documentation on criminal acts

20     necessary for functioning of illegal activities.

21             I read this as they are not combatants.  They are not involved in

22     any crimes.  That makes it difficult to have any documentation on illegal

23     activities.

24             Now, if you say, Well, it was uncertain.  It still could be.

25     What do you need to make someone a prisoner of war, for him to be a

Page 2917

 1     combatant?  Or would you say even if they are civilians, if it has not

 2     sufficiently been established, we will nevertheless treat them as

 3     prisoners of war, although our information tells us that they had not

 4     actively participated in the armed rebellion, they had no weapons, and

 5     they were not wearing any uniforms.

 6             Is that sufficient to make someone a prisoner of war?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is my report, and that was the

 8     impression I had.  It doesn't have to be correct.  But my report was sent

 9     to someone else to decide on these matters.

10             Do you understand what I'm saying?

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I do not see any suggestion here to

12     immediately release these persons because there's no reason to consider

13     them prisoners of war.  I do not see any such suggestion in your report.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Maybe not in this one, but in some

15     reports you will come across such a situation, especially for younger

16     persons and persons over the age of 60.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we discussed that.

18             Do you have any report in which you suggest that able-bodied men,

19     not being sick, between the age of 18 and 60, should be immediately

20     released and returned to their homes?  Because they were not involved in

21     armed rebellion; they were not having any arms.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think there are no such reports.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

24             Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 2918

 1        Q.   What I asked you previously, now I'm going to put the question to

 2     you in this other form:  When you admit a person at a given point in

 3     time, in the centre Manjaca, you do not know and you have no way of

 4     knowing whether he meets the standards of prisoners of war, according to

 5     Geneva Conventions; is that right?

 6        A.   That's right.

 7        Q.   Only after you check his initial statement through your own

 8     intelligence, when you collect other evidence, it's only then that you

 9     can conclude whether what he is saying is correct or is not correct.

10     That is the job of any investigator.  Am I right?

11        A.   That's right.

12        Q.   Thank you.  And now please take a look at this, paragraph 4 of

13     this statement, where it says that:  "The presidents of the municipal and

14     district courts in Banja Luka arrived, as well as prosecutors and the

15     military legal officer of the 1st Krajina Corps.  They inspected the

16     conditions in which the prisoners are accommodated and discussed the

17     issue of possible judicial proceedings for the acts they have committed."

18             This is my question:  Did the people from the judiciary give you

19     any instructions in terms of how these persons should be dealt with,

20     those who are suspected of having committed serious crimes?

21        A.   I don't remember that there were such instructions, such

22     documents, coming from these organs.

23        Q.   Thank you.  I'll just ask you a very specific question here.

24             Who was it that brought these people from the direction of Sanski

25     Most, when 24 detainees fell victim during the transportation?  Do you

Page 2919

 1     know these people?  Not personally, but do you know which structures they

 2     belonged to?

 3        A.   I don't know them personally, but it was members of the MUP, of

 4     the civilian police.  They brought prisoners from Sanski Most.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Now I'd like to ask for document

 7     P220.  I would like to note that this document is under seal as well.  It

 8     is a daily report dated the 9th of July, 1992.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I put a question to the witness before you

10     deal with the next document, Mr. Stojanovic.

11             Witness, you were asked by Mr. Stojanovic about the procedure to

12     find out if a detainee was an active combatant before his detention.

13     Mr. Stojanovic put to you, and I quote, page 55, line 4:

14             "Only after you check his initial statement through your own

15     intelligence, when you collect other evidence, it's only then that you

16     can conclude whether what he is saying is correct or is not correct."

17             How did you manage to do that with 23 detainees who were admitted

18     into the camp per day?  You told us approximately 23 such initial

19     investigations you had to carry out.  How was it possible to gain this

20     additional information in that short period of time?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've already said that we managed

22     to interview 20 to 30 persons per day.  It's not that 20 to 30 persons

23     were brought into the camp per day.  So we managed to interview that many

24     people per day, my service did.  So if there were two or three or four of

25     us, that is how many people we could deal with per day.  Again, that

Page 2920

 1     meant that we could not actually talk to all the prisoners who were in

 2     the camp.

 3             What you are asking, how I could do this in such a short period

 4     of time, that is a consequence - how should I put this? - of having

 5     people brought in who had already been processed.  You already heard that

 6     some people had been processed in Dubica, Sanski Most, Velagici and other

 7     places where they had been taken prisoner.  So they were detained there.

 8     They were dealt with there.  Interviewed, interrogated, statements were

 9     taken.  So I didn't really have anything to do in such cases.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I understand.  Did you have these files from

11     other places you just mentioned at your disposal when

12     interviewing/interrogating these detainees after their arrival?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was one of the problems that I

14     pointed out in many of my reports.  Perhaps 10 or 20 of them.  I pointed

15     that out, that people were brought in.  And it says that they had been

16     dealt with and that there's no documentation.  So we would have to ask

17     for it subsequently and then these people from the public security

18     stations would ultimately send these documents in some cases; in others,

19     they didn't.  How do I put this?  It was done in a very sloppy way, if I

20     can put it that way.  This is a problem that we had to deal with up

21     there.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

23             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24        Q.   Sir, please let us look at the document in front of you.

25             Could you please focus on paragraph 3, and it says there, in this

Page 2921

 1     daily report of the 9th of July, 1992:  "Tomorrow, we will receive a

 2     visit from the representative of the Muslim humanity association

 3     Merhamet, who we are going to hand over our select prisoners, those older

 4     than 60 years of age and younger than 18, as well as those who are

 5     seriously sick."

 6             My question is:  How often did Merhamet come to Manjaca camp?

 7        A.   The humanitarian association Merhamet from Banja Luka, headed by

 8     Mr. Medic, came once or twice a week.  But, as a rule, it was once a

 9     week.  He would bring humanitarian aid with him.  It would be food and

10     clothing.  Various supplies for washing as well.  This was approved by

11     the corps command.  We did not decide on this at all.  It was the command

12     of the corps that decided on the basis of his request, and then they

13     would grant it.  And then we would know exactly when he would be coming

14     and then he'd ask to see certain persons, or he would give this to the

15     command, asking that this be distributed to everyone.

16             This happened during the first stage of the existence of the

17     camp, that is to say, June and July.  After that, the International

18     Committee of the Red Cross started coming, and then Merhamet stopped

19     coming.

20        Q.   Did they have any restrictions in terms of the distribution of

21     humanitarian aid and such-like?

22        A.   I've already explained that.  They would agree with the corps

23     command, and then they would come and distribute this aid.  Perhaps they

24     did have some problems of their own, but I did not observe any.  People

25     freely distributed this aid that had been brought in.

Page 2922

 1        Q.   Further on, you say that you are going to hand over to them

 2     select prisoners.  I'm going to ask you now whether that is what the

 3     situation actually was; and were these select prisoners, indeed, handed

 4     over to Merhamet?

 5        A.   Our assessment was that the most expedient thing to do was to

 6     hand over to Merhamet those who were younger than 18 and older than 60.

 7     Since it was quite a problem in view of the distance to Banja Luka, we'd

 8     hand them over to them, and then they would take them to their homes.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I again ask you about the categories.

10             I do see that it's the intention to select those older than 60

11     and those younger than 18 and allow them to return home through the

12     intervention of Merhamet.  But earlier in this report, it states that new

13     prisoners are being brought in massively and in large quantities that no

14     selection has been made.  "They are bringing in those who shouldn't be

15     treated as prisoners of war because they have been picked up from their

16     homes and off their fields," and then you add that there are also those

17     above 60 and younger than 18.

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted).  Nevertheless,

22     they were further detained in this prisoners-of-war camp.  Is that

23     correctly understood?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Your understanding is

25     correct.  That's the way it was.  That is what I wrote and that's the way

Page 2923

 1     it was.  That is the truth.

 2             Perhaps -- I tried to point this out, and perhaps I exaggerated a

 3     bit so that the people that I was reporting to would really act on this.

 4     It's very close to the truth anyway.  What you said, that when they were

 5     brought again, there were people who were younger than 18 and over the

 6     age of 60.  That is because Manjaca was like a river, as it were.  People

 7     were being brought in non-stop in groups and exchanged, and they left.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me stop you there again.  I focussed my question

 9     exclusively on the people not belonging to these categories of the

10     youngest ones or the elderly, but you treat them as separate categories

11     as well.  Those who should not be treated as prisoners of war, because

12     having been picked up from their homes and their fields, and those older

13     than 60 and younger than 18.

14             So a large quantity are just not prisoners of war and,

15     nevertheless, you detained them in the camp of prisoners of war.  That

16     is, then, I do understand, correctly understood and I am ignoring at this

17     moment the elderly and the younger ones.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand what you are saying.

19             This category that merits the status of prisoners of war, in

20     terms of their age, but in my estimate they should not be prisoners of

21     war because they were collected from their fields and homes, et cetera.

22     I said that for many of them I did not have any documentation because it

23     hadn't arrived yet.  So I tried to speed things up through my own

24     superior, so this organ would send that documentation.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, you are not complaining here about

Page 2924

 1     lacking documentation.  You are saying, "They are bringing in those who

 2     have been picked up from their homes and off their fields."  So

 3     apparently you are aware of that having happened.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have no comment.  It's written

 5     there, and that's it.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8        Q.   Sir, at the moment when you admit these people who are brought in

 9     from Sanski Most, Prijedor, Kljuc, and, as you say, you don't know what

10     their status is, and once they've spent a certain amount of time there at

11     the Manjaca centre, and once you've received certain information and

12     accompanying documentation, and when you assess that a particular person

13     should not enjoy the status of a prisoner of war, according to the

14     Geneva Conventions, what do you do then?  What measures do you take?  Do

15     help us with this.

16        A.   I can only share with you what it is that we were doing.  Now, as

17     to what should be done, that would entail a much longer answer.

18             So, we did not release any such people from there because we sent

19     our reports to our superior command and awaited their orders.  We were

20     part of the command system and did not act on our own initiative.  We

21     simply carried out orders.

22        Q.   Can we agree that all of them at some point in time, irrespective

23     of whether you believed they should be accorded the status of prisoners

24     of war, as organised by the ICRC, and provided that they signed a

25     statement given freely, that they were allowed to leave Manjaca as it,

Page 2925

 1     indeed, happened in February 1992.  Am I correct?

 2        A.   That is correct.  With the assistance of the ICRC, it was,

 3     indeed, done.  Several groups left in November and December, and

 4     afterwards the camp was disbanded.

 5        Q.   So all of them were allowed to leave the centre at Manjaca; is

 6     that correct?

 7        A.   All of them, yes.  So, 4.403 prisoners left the camp and went

 8     onto third countries, depending on their country of choice.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I ask, just for a moment.  When did that

11     happen?  When was the camp disbanded?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The first group of prisoners left

13     on the 14th of November, 1992; the second group, on the 14th of December,

14     1992; the third group, on the 16th of December, 1992; and the last group,

15     on the 18th of December, 1992, whereupon the camp was closed, when its

16     key was symbolically handed over to this -- I don't know the name

17     anymore.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] We will see that document,

20     Your Honour, and we will rely on it in some future examination.

21             Let us look at P229 next.  I'd like to remind you that this

22     document, too, is under seal.  Let us have a look at it together, please.

23        Q.   The first paragraph, which refers to a visit of the ICRC from

24     Geneva to the centre at Manjaca.  Inter alia, it reads that the head of

25     the team thanked for the visit that was enabled to them and the access to

Page 2926

 1     every individual prisoner without the presence of any witnesses.

 2             I'd like to ask you about your recollection.  Were ICRC

 3     representatives allowed to enter any part of the camp at Manjaca?  Was it

 4     possible for them to do so?

 5        A.   Members of the ICRC, as approved by the authorities in Pale and

 6     by the Main Staff of the VRS, were allowed to visit the camp and enter

 7     any facility, as well as to talk to any inmate.  They have been doing --

 8     they did that as of their first visit and during each subsequent visit.

 9     Their nutritionist was also present daily in the camp between 9.00 and

10     5.00 p.m.

11        Q.   How frequently did the ICRC visit?

12        A.   I believe I said they came by once a week.  And their forces

13     brought in food, mostly fruit, vegetables, and bread, from Zagreb.  And

14     that, too, was a type of visit.  So it was more frequent.  In other

15     words, food was brought in from Zagreb directly to Manjaca.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Let's go to page 2 of this report, the second part of

17     the third paragraph, where you say that, in conversation with a number of

18     prisoners, ICRC representatives learned of four people for whom there are

19     reasonable grounds to believe that they were liquidated.

20             Can you recall this?  And who were the people in question?  What

21     was the status of the four people in question?

22        A.   Those people had been treated before, either by the military

23     court or another institution.  They were supposed to have been in the

24     military investigation prison in Banja Luka but they did not have any

25     room and so they were transferred to our camp.  They were not considered

Page 2927

 1     POWs; they were simply accommodated there.

 2             The camp commander decided to put them aside so that they

 3     wouldn't be registered together with the other prisoners.  Through their

 4     own sources, members of the ICRC found out that information and they

 5     wanted to see them, and, indeed, they were shown to them.  It's not in

 6     dispute in any way.  They were alive.

 7        Q.   In the last paragraph, it says that there was a proposal that the

 8     four sentenced men, as it says here and we have their names here, should

 9     be transferred to a jail in Banja Luka.

10             Is that a question that was put to you by the ICRC as well?

11        A.   Yes, precisely.  That is what it says, and that's how it was.  We

12     intervened that they be transferred to a facility where they rightfully

13     should have been.

14        Q.   Another question relating to paragraph 4.  There is mention that

15     ICRC representatives stated that the nutrition was poor, as well as

16     hygiene, and Colonel Vukelic reacted to any such statements which were

17     unfounded, as well as Colonel Popovic.  Following that, the speaker of

18     the ICRC team calmed down, and they were promised that conditions will be

19     improved, as well as the treatment of prisoners.

20             Can you tell us what kind of conversation was this, and why did

21     it provoke Vukelic and Popovic into reacting?

22        A.   I'm afraid I can't say anything other than what is stated here,

23     because I wasn't present at the meeting.  I was away, although I no

24     longer remember why.  However, once I returned, I was informed about it

25     and that there were some unfounded accusations, as well as that they were

Page 2928

 1     discussed.

 2             I also heard that the ICRC representatives did correct some of

 3     their position but a report to that effect never -- was never sent, which

 4     would serve to corroborate that in writing.

 5        Q.   Perhaps this is an opportunity for you to tell the Chamber how

 6     food was organised for such large numbers of people, the provision of

 7     food.

 8        A.   The Manjaca camp, as an organisational unit of the 1st Krajina

 9     Corps, was supplied by the corps.  In other words, the logistics of the

10     1st Krajina Corps supplied the camp, too.

11             1992 was a war year.  The corridor was cut off, and there were

12     many other issues.  The Manjaca camp simply shared the same fate suffered

13     by the rest of the population and the fighters of the corps.  In other

14     words, there was a shortage of everything.  Much as the fighters at the

15     front lines were short of supply, in terms of specific food types, the

16     inmates at the camp were in the same situation.  The number of people

17     increased, whereas the amount of food decreased.  That is why we approved

18     that Merhamet should help and we also asked for the assistance of the

19     ICRC, et cetera.

20             Once all of that was set in motion, things were fine.  That was

21     the main problem, and it was an objective problem.  We all felt it.  I

22     didn't eat any better food than the prisoners.  I ate what they ate.

23        Q.   I wanted to ask you to clarify something about the corridor.

24             During that period, practically the entire region of Banja Luka

25     was surrounded and cut off from the rest of Yugoslavia, due to intensive

Page 2929

 1     fighting in the rear and the inability to provide supplies to the entire

 2     area of Banja Luka.  Is this statement of mine correct?

 3        A.   Yes, it is.  It was at that time that the 12 babies died due to

 4     lack of oxygen, which couldn't get through from Belgrade.

 5        Q.   Some reference is made to the hygienic needs, or needs of

 6     hygiene, for the prisoners.  How was that organised in Manjaca?

 7        A.   The possibilities were very narrow.  What we could provide as the

 8     army were the ABH supplies, which would enable people to wash up at least

 9     once a week in field conditions under a tent.  We could warm up water for

10     them.  They had field toilets.  And the conditions in general were

11     adjusted to the overall situation and the number of people.  I must say

12     that hygiene was modest or at a low level.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, I'm looking at the clock.  If this

14     would be a suitable time.  And I expect you to conclude your

15     examination-in-chief -- cross-examination during the next session.  But

16     also would there be any time left for the Prosecution to put some further

17     questions to the witness?

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I understand your point,

19     Your Honour.  I'll reorganise my examination.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.

21     Curtains down first.

22                           [The witness stands down]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  We take a break, and we'll resume at 18 minutes

24     to 2.00.

25                           --- Recess taken at 1.22 p.m.

Page 2930

 1                           --- On resuming at 1.42 p.m.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom

 3     once the curtains are down.

 4             Meanwhile, I'll use the time and address especially the Defence.

 5     Last week, Mr. Ivetic was unaware of the practice of providing

 6     transcripts of videos to the interpreters before playing such videos in

 7     court.  The Registry has circulated the Trial Management Meeting paper

 8     which sets out the ground rules for these proceedings.  However,

 9     irrespective of this, CLSS has informed the Chamber that it has always

10     been standard CLSS practice that, in relation to videos, that the parties

11     provide both transcription of the original and its translation as the

12     speed and sound quality makes it impossible to provide simultaneous

13     interpretation of intercepts and videos, and the parties are invited to

14     follow that practice.

15                           [The witness takes the stand]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Curtains can be up again.

17             Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.

18             I would like to inform the parties that the Defence still has to

19     respond to the procedure suggested in relation to the next witness to

20     appear, and I would reserve the last ten minutes for that purpose today.

21             Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

22             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23        Q.   Witness, let me conclude this topic before moving on to the next

24     document.

25             I wanted to ask you about your knowledge concerning health care

Page 2931

 1     for prisoners in the Manjaca centre?

 2        A.   As regards the health care of prisoners in the POW camp in

 3     Manjaca, the primary health care was provided on the premises.  We had

 4     two medical doctors at our disposal who were prisoners themselves.  We

 5     also had our medical technician, a paramedic from the medical centre in

 6     Banja Luka, who was there round the clock.

 7             The first medical checkup took place at intake, and their health

 8     status was recorded in the medical log-book for each person individually.

 9     Each prisoner had their status recorded as to whether there were

10     injuries, et cetera.  Further medical care was provided in the camp, and

11     we relied on the assistance of the then-medical centre in Banja Luka, the

12     clinical centre in Banja Luka, and further afield, if necessary.  That

13     was the short description of the health care provided.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we have a look at P222,

16     which is also under seal.  It is a daily report of the 29th of July,

17     1992.

18        Q.   Sir, the deaths of Filipovic and Bender, the two prisoners, are

19     referred to here.  I hope can you find that.

20             My first question is this:  Following the death of these two

21     people, the appropriate judicial and investigative bodies were informed;

22     is that correct?

23             JUDGE ORIE:  You asked that before, I think, or at least the

24     witness testified about it.  And it is also in the transcript already, so

25     please move on, Mr. Stojanovic.

Page 2932

 1             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   The report states that possible perpetrators of the crime were

 3     identified; is that correct?

 4        A.   That is correct.  They were identified within the first half an

 5     hour, one hour.

 6        Q.   I have a question regarding that in paragraph 4, around the

 7     middle of the paragraph, which reads -- there's a remark that the

 8     military police patrol worked independently of their own volition and

 9     that no such conduct was ordered, nor did they ask anyone.

10             Today, having all the information, the knowledge you do, and

11     particularly because you told us that the -- these people were tried and

12     sentenced and received high sentences, do you believe this was an

13     independent act of theirs which had nothing to do with any military

14     orders?

15        A.   It was utter willfulness, which came about as a surprise to us

16     all up there.  We dealt with it, and we asked that they be removed

17     immediately from the camp, that they be relieved of their duties.

18        Q.   Was that done?  Were they, indeed, removed from Manjaca?

19        A.   On that same day, they were suspended.  They were removed.

20        Q.   In the last sentence in paragraph 4, it says:  "We tried to find

21     out whether their murder was commissioned and who did that."

22             What you did mean by that?  Was any information obtained through

23     operative work?  Did you find out that somebody had ordered their

24     killings?

25        A.   When it comes to Omer Filipovic, there was information that he

Page 2933

 1     had participated in organising and carrying out certain combat activities

 2     in his settlement.  And his neighbours, Serbs, who were either members of

 3     the military police or the civilian police, and they provided security

 4     for the camp, were suspected to harbour hatred against Filipovic.

 5             That's why we thought that somebody had told one of those Serbs

 6     at Manjaca, You are up there.  If you can, kill that person.  We also

 7     considered that possibility.  We investigated that possibility as well,

 8     but after our investigation, we did not come to such a conclusion.

 9        Q.   What happened with the mortal remains of those two prisoners?

10        A.   Filipovic's body and Bender's body as well, there were

11     post mortems were carried out, and their bodies were handed over to the

12     persons in charge at the cemetery, for burial.  I don't know whether

13     their bodies were exhumed or not.  I don't know.

14             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And now let's look at 07052.

15     This is a 65 ter document.  I believe this is another document under

16     seal.  This is a report dated 14 December 1992.

17        Q.   Sir, this is one of the daily reports which refers to the

18     procedure aimed at disbanding the Manjaca centre, after which all the

19     detainees left the Manjaca camp.

20             What I would like to ask you can be found in paragraph 1, where

21     it says:  "After the efficient work on the lineup and after each

22     individual signed a statement as to whether they wanted to be taken away

23     by the International Committee of the Red Cross, around 9.00, we started

24     putting them on the buses."

25             My question is about the statements.  What kind of statements

Page 2934

 1     were those?  Were they written statements?  I'll take things one at a

 2     time.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we do so, it seems that the translation is

 4     incomplete, if only because the date is not translated.

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  14th of December, 1992.  Could you send it for

 7     review, Mr. Stojanovic, so that we have a complete and reliable

 8     translation.  Or the Prosecution, if the Prosecution has presented it

 9     with this translation.  I see Ms. Stewart is nodding yes.  So could the

10     Prosecution have the translation reviewed.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And could we zoom in to the English, please.

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   I would kindly ask you to look at line 5 in the text, where it

14     says:  "Following the successful roll-call, and after each individual

15     signed a statement as to whether they wished to go with the ICRC, the

16     boarding of the buses started at around 0900 hours."

17             Tell the Trial Chamber about the statements.  What kind of

18     statements were those, according to what you know?

19        A.   Those were written statements that all the prisoners of war were

20     supposed to sign if they agreed to be transferred to third countries.

21     And the wording of the statement was, I accept to voluntarily go to a

22     third country in the organisation of the ICRC.  I am quoting from memory.

23     I'm paraphrasing.  And each of them had to sign that statement.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, I would like to ask a clarifying

25     question.

Page 2935

 1             You said:  "Each of the prisoners of war," but earlier I think we

 2     dealt extensively with the question of whether they were prisoners of

 3     war.  And, as you said, many of them should not be treated as prisoners

 4     of war.  At the same time, you also told us that from that category,

 5     able-bodied men between 18 and 60, that it was never suggested that they

 6     would be released, apart from this mass release.

 7             So if you say, "Every prisoner of war," do you mean every

 8     detainee, or do you really want to say that they all were rightly treated

 9     as prisoners of war?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In order to clarify, I can say that

11     everybody who was at Manjaca signed that statement and left to a third

12     country.  I don't know what other distinction to make between them.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  That was not my question.

14             My question was whether you were talking about all people

15     detained, or whether you considered them all rightly to be treated as

16     prisoners of war, despite the various documents we looked through

17     earlier, that many of them were not involved in armed rebellion, did not

18     take up arms, et cetera, and were just sent to Manjaca irrespective of

19     whether they really could be rightly treated as prisoners of war.

20             Would those persons still be detained and be part of this number

21     of detainees being given to the ICRC, or had anything happened meanwhile

22     which made a clear distinction between prisoners of war and those which

23     were unjustifiably treated as such?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They all left with the ICRC.

25             The ICRC was the body that had drafted that statement.  They were

Page 2936

 1     all treated in the same manner when it came to their release.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I would have preferred if you would have

 3     answered my question, but since you apparently do not intend to do so,

 4     Mr. Stojanovic, you're invited to proceed.

 5             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Actually, Your Honour, if I could just interrupt

 6     for one moment.

 7             At page 70 of the transcript, line 11, it records Mr. Stojanovic

 8     as drawing up document 5702.  I don't think that that correctly captures

 9     the 65 ter number of the document that's currently being addressed, so

10     perhaps he could clarify that.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic.

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  The document

13     that I called up was 65 ter 07052, and that document is, indeed, on the

14     screen before us.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  I think he has clarified the matter.  Please proceed

16     for another knew minutes, because, as I said, I would like to reserve the

17     last ten minutes for the Defence.

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19        Q.   Just a few more questions about this document, sir.

20             Bearing in mind the entire process, when it comes to the Army of

21     Republika Srpska, was it possible for each of the individuals to perhaps

22     choose not to go to a third country but to stay in the region of

23     Banja Luka?  From the point of view of the Army of Republika Srpska.

24        A.   As far as we were concerned, they could opt for that.  They could

25     stay home, if they were from Banja Luka or from Sanski Most.  But, by and

Page 2937

 1     large, almost 100 per cent of them chose to go to a third country.  They

 2     were transported to Karlovac, and from Karlovac, they were then

 3     transported to third countries.  From Karlovac, they returned home.  From

 4     Karlovac, some of them rejoined their units.  Some of them rejoined

 5     either the Muslim army or the Croatian army, and they were recaptured.

 6     We had several cases of recapture, when the same individuals were, again,

 7     taken prisoner.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Let me finish with the following question:  Before

 9     war broke out in the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina, while the JNA still

10     existed in 1991, what body was the camp in Manjaca connected to, in terms

11     of establishment lines?

12        A.   The Manjaca camp was an organisational unit of the command of the

13     1st Krajina Corps, i.e., it was connected to the army, i.e., to the 1st

14     Krajina Corps, and that line of command went up to the Main Staff.

15        Q.   And in 1991, when the JNA still existed and when the 1st Krajina

16     Corps had still not been established, who was the Manjaca camp attached

17     to?  Which body?

18        A.   If you're asking me about what Manjaca was, what the facilities

19     at Manjaca served, Manjaca was an agricultural farm, i.e., the military

20     institution called Karadjordjevic used to use those facilities.  Maybe I

21     did not understand you well the first time.

22        Q.   Was it part of the then-2nd Military District?

23        A.   That was part of the 2nd Military District.  Originally, it was

24     part of the 1st Military District and then the 2nd Military District in

25     Sarajevo, up to the point when the JNA unit had to leave

Page 2938

 1     Bosnia-Herzegovina, which was either on 19th or 20th May 1992.

 2        Q.   Thank you very much.  Let me finish my cross-examination.

 3             You hail from the region, as far as I can understand.  I'm being

 4     very cautious when I put this question to you.  Do you agree with me that

 5     that place, that centre Manjaca, had been a working agricultural farm and

 6     that it had previously been used as a prison for the prisoners of war

 7     captured during the war in Croatia?

 8        A.   Manjaca was a military agricultural farm.  It was a cattle farm,

 9     where horses and cows were bred, as well as wheat and potatoes, barley.

10     It was a working military agricultural farm.

11             When the war started in 1991, those facilities were used for the

12     accommodation of imprisoned Ustashas who fled before the Serbian forces.

13     In Croatia they closed the bridge in Hrvatska Kostajnica.  There were

14     some 370 of them when they were captured.  They were brought up there for

15     processing, and from then on, that area or those facilities started being

16     used for prisoners of war.  That use started in September 1991.  When

17     those prisoners were interviewed, it was disbanded as a camp and then

18     it -- it started being reused in 1992.

19        Q.   And in December 1992, it was again disbanded as a prisoner of war

20     camp; right?

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, I said I would reserve ten minutes

22     for the Defence.  You've taken some of that.

23             We apparently are unable to conclude your testimony today,

24     Witness RM051.  We'd like to see you back tomorrow morning at 9.30.  It

25     will not take very long, I take it.

Page 2939

 1             And I would like to instruct you that you should not speak with

 2     anyone about your testimony, whether that is the testimony you've given

 3     today or whether that is testimony still to be given tomorrow.

 4             You may follow the usher, but only after the curtains are down.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

 6                           [The witness stands down]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, meanwhile, I'd like to ask you whether

 8     you're ready to make the submissions on the suggested procedure for

 9     document charts for the next witness.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour, we are.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Then could the curtains be drawn up again, and ...

12             Mr. Lukic, please proceed.

13             MR. LUKIC:  I have to ask you first, are we talking about this

14     documents for review chart we have to discuss today?

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, the Chamber was not involved in any discussion

16     yesterday.  But I think the Prosecution announced that it would start

17     preparing the next witness and use a chart on which he would give his

18     comments, and that you had an opportunity to comment on the suggested

19     proceedings.  So not the content of it but the proceedings, as suggested

20     by the Prosecution.

21             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I can see the document from here, and

22     it is, in fact, a document that we are scheduled to discuss today.

23             MR. LUKIC:  Okay.  Then since the Prosecution emphasised that it

24     is a unique situation, so we understand that it is only for this witness,

25     and we don't have objection to continue with this witness with this

Page 2940

 1     chart.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Do I understand, then, Mr. Groome that this is the

 3     only witness with which you would like to follow this procedure?

 4             MR. GROOME:  Well, Your Honour, it's the only witness so far.

 5     Now, it may be in the future that we'd have a similarly situated witness

 6     that we might seek the same relief, but I certainly wouldn't proceed

 7     without requesting to do so, bringing it to the attention of the Defence

 8     and the Chamber.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I see that one of my colleagues has,

10     apparently, a copy in his hand.  I have not seen it yet.  We will look at

11     it.  The parties, apparently, do not disagree on this procedure to be

12     used with the next witness.  And in the future, we will see.  But it will

13     not be standard procedure, Mr. Groome.

14             MR. GROOME:  I'm not advocating, at this stage, for that, Your

15     Honour.

16             I would note, Your Honour, that the witness is upstairs now

17     finalizing and reviewing that, so can we proceed on the basis that I will

18     distribute that once it's finalised, and it will be decided, prior to the

19     witness giving evidence, on how to proceed?

20             JUDGE ORIE:  If the Chamber would have major objections in

21     relation to this witness because it's limited to that now, we'll let you

22     know as soon as possible.

23             MR. GROOME:  Thank you, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, if there's nothing else, Mr. Stojanovic, could

25     you tell us how much more time you would need tomorrow?

Page 2941

 1             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will be expecting answers to

 2     just two more questions, Your Honours.  So it will be very brief.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  And as matters stand now, Ms. Hochhauser?

 4             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Your Honour, I would anticipate about 15

 5     minutes.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then we'll adjourn for the day, and we'll

 7     resume tomorrow, Tuesday, the 25th of September, at 9.30 in the morning,

 8     in this same courtroom, I.

 9                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.14 p.m.,

10                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 25th day of

11                           September, 2012, at 9.30 a.m.