1 Tuesday, 25 September 2012
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
9 This is the case number IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus
10 Ratko Mladic.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
12 If there are no preliminaries, could the witness be escorted into
13 the courtroom; curtains down first. They will be open again in a second.
14 [The witness takes the stand]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Witness RM051. Please be seated.
16 WITNESS: RM051 [Resumed]
17 [Witness answered through interpreter]
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, if you're ready, you indicated
19 yesterday that you would have two more questions for the witness. But
20 before you put them to the witness, Witness RM051, I'd like to remind you
21 that you're still bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the
22 beginning of your testimony that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth,
23 and nothing but the truth.
24 Mr. Stojanovic, please proceed.
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic: [Continued]
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Sir, you stated that in December 1992, the Manjaca camp ceased to
4 exist. While you were there, at any point in time did a delegation
5 including Paddy Ashdown visit the camp? What were their comments after
6 the visit, if you remember?
7 A. Yes, there was a delegation including Mr. Paddy Ashdown.
8 However, on that day I was not there. I know very little about that
9 visit, so I will not be of much use to you there.
10 Q. Did you follow the media reports from that visit?
11 A. Well, unfortunately, even that I don't remember. I don't
12 remember much detail.
13 Q. Thank you. And I will finish my cross-examination with a
14 question about your stay in Sarajevo. My question has to do with your
15 possible contacts with Mr. Mladic. Did you know that Mr. Mladic had a
16 family house in the Pofalici neighbourhood of Sarajevo and that house was
17 set on fire in May 1992?
18 A. I don't know that.
19 Q. Thank you. It may have taken a little bit longer than expected,
20 but, in any case, thank you for your answers and for your assistance.
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this brings my
22 cross-examination to an end.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hochhauser, you indicated that you'd need up to
2 15 minutes, I think. Please proceed.
3 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Thank you, Your Honours. And good morning.
4 Re-examination by Ms. Hochhauser:
5 MS. HOCHHAUSER: If we could please have exhibit number P235,
6 under -- and that is under seal, on the screen.
7 Q. Now, sir, during yesterday's testimony at transcript pages 2892
8 through 3, you testified that the MUP members who transferred the
9 detainees were in charge of the safety of those detainees until they had
10 gone through your formal admission process. Do you recall that set of
11 questions and answers? I'm drawing your attention to them now.
12 A. Yes, I remember that.
13 Q. Okay. Now, looking at P235, this document, dated 10 August 1992,
14 describes an incident in which eight prisoners brought from Omarska to
15 Manjaca were killed, four of whom were evidently beaten to death prior to
16 their formal admission into Manjaca; is that right? Does that accurately
17 describe this document?
18 A. Yes, it is accurate.
19 Q. Now, the beatings of those prisoners that resulted in their death
20 occurred in view of the Manjaca camp personnel, including yourself; is
21 that right?
22 A. Yes. When we learnt that that was happening right outside the
23 camp, outside of the camp's perimeter. The camp commander, Popovic,
24 intervened first. However, his intervention did not put a stop to that.
25 That's why I went out and tried to put a stop to it myself.
1 During my intervention I was warned by some uniformed personnel
2 wearing uniforms of the civilian police that should I continue to
3 intervene, according to them, if I continued to shout at them, I would
4 fair the same as those who were on the ground. Obviously I gave up.
5 When I reported to my superiors about the case, I describe the situation
6 and this report is a result of that.
7 Q. When you say "it was occurring right outside the perimeter," can
8 you tell this Chamber the geographical proximity to the inside of Manjaca
9 camp? What do you mean by "right outside the perimeter"?
10 A. Well, that was some 50 metres away from the barbed wire. But let
11 me try and clarify the circumstances under which that happened. The
12 prisoners of war who had been brought in, together with their escorts,
13 spent the entire night on the trucks and around the trucks around the
14 camp, some 50 metres away from the barbed wire. They could not be
15 admitted during the night. According to regulations, night-time
16 conditions are not appropriate for the admission of detainees.
17 Q. Okay. So the reason that those detainees were still in their
18 transport vehicles right outside -- right outside the barbed wire was so
19 that you could conduct your intake process, and that was the instruction
20 of the Manjaca camp; is that correct?
21 A. Not only of the Manjaca camp instructions, but also according to
22 our own regulations that were drafted long before the war started, long
23 before the Manjaca camp was set up. The instructions stated that the
24 intake of the detainees should not be carried out during the night. The
25 transport arrived around 10.00 in the evening. It was summertime but it
1 was already dark. According to the regulations, they could not be
2 admitted during the night. They had to wait for the dawn and that's what
3 they had been told. They spent the entire night on the trucks and around
4 the trucks, together with the security guards who were their escorts. In
5 other words, they spent the night some 50 metres away from the camp, from
6 the barbed wire around the camp.
7 Q. Now, in exhibit number P233, which was your daily report of
8 7 August, you asked the one -- the 1st Krajina Corps Command to take
9 measures to ensure that this didn't happen again; is that right?
10 A. That's right. That's correct. And you can read that in the
11 report as well.
12 Q. Sir, yesterday you spoke about the deaths of Filipovic and
13 Bender, and you told the Chamber at page -- transcript page 2895, I
14 believe it's lines 15 through 16, that you were surprised by their
15 killings, and I would like to draw your attention to that line of
16 questioning from yesterday, okay? Filipovic and Bender were killed on or
17 about the 29th of July, 1992, by military policemen inside the Manjaca
18 camp; is that right?
19 A. That's correct. That happened within the camp.
20 Q. Okay.
21 MS. HOCHHAUSER: And if we could see, please, P231, and that's
22 also a document that's under seal, on the screen, please.
23 Q. Sir, P231, which is dated 23 July 1992, and I draw your attention
24 to the bottom of page 1 into page 2 in the English, and I believe it's
25 the same in the B/C/S, it says:
1 "So we warned once again that the military police commander
2 should be informed that the POW camp Manjaca is not a torture house."
3 And, again, sir, in P229, also under seal, which pre-dates
5 [Prosecution counsel confer]
6 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Your Honours, I apologise, I'm going to ask to
7 go into closed session.
8 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
9 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Private session.
10 [Private session]
11 Pages 2948-2951 redacted. Private session.
12 [Open session]
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
15 MS. HOCHHAUSER:
16 Q. Sir, you testified yesterday that all of the people held at
17 Manjaca signed the statement of the Red Cross in order to be transported
18 out of the country, that they all willingly signed that statement. Can
19 you tell us what would have happened to them had they not signed the
20 paper agreeing to leave?
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Wouldn't that call for speculation,
22 Madam Hochhauser.
23 MS. HOCHHAUSER: If he knows.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: How would he know if it didn't happen. You say
25 what would have happened if they hadn't signed. So it didn't happen.
1 They signed.
2 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Your Honour, if you think it calls for
3 speculation, I can withdraw the question. I think he was aware of the
4 process that was going on and perhaps he also --
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: But if you asked what happened to those who did
6 not sign, then you are asking him about facts. But if you say, What
7 would have happened if they hadn't signed, you're asking for speculation.
8 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Okay, Your Honour. I'll withdraw the question.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Nevertheless, Ms. Hochhauser, I would be interested,
10 as a matter of fact, whether anything was said to these prisoners before
11 they would sign.
12 Do you know whether anything was told to these prisoners before
13 they were invited to sign such as, If you sign, this happens; if you do
14 not sign, that happens. Was anything said to these prisoners?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You know what? I can't be of much
16 assistance there. The signing of that statement and its drafting was
17 organised by the ICRC. I know very little about that.
18 This was not organised either by the camp or the camp command.
19 It was the ICRC that did that, in order for them to be certain that they
20 could take those people away and send them wherever they wanted to go.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Does that mean that without such a signature
22 the ICRC would not take them out of the camp?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Any -- any further questions?
25 MS. HOCHHAUSER: I have no further questions. Thank you, Your
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Hochhauser.
3 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Oh, I do apologise. Just one thing that
4 remained from yesterday, which was 65 ter number 7052. Which was used by
5 the -- by Defence counsel in his cross-examination. The Court noted that
6 there was some information missing from that translation, the date on the
7 top. We've located actually a final translation. What had been loaded
8 into e-court was a draft translation. We've provided it to
9 Mr. Stojanovic and he agrees that we can load the final translation which
10 does indicate the information that had been missing.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Have you done so, Mr. Stojanovic?
12 MS. HOCHHAUSER: So we would have to have leave from the Court to
13 replace what's in there.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, let's see where we are with 65 ter 7052.
15 Is it -- it's not admitted. It's not admitted. That means that every
16 party could replace whatever is there, even without the approval of the
18 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Thank you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Now, it was your 65 ter number. Have you replaced
20 it or has Mr. Stojanovic replaced it?
21 MS. HOCHHAUSER: We'll do it, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It will be done.
23 Mr. Stojanovic, did you intend to tender it? Because I noted
24 that you have not tendered any of the documents you used yesterday, if
25 I'm not wrong. Was that what you intended to do?
1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour. I
2 think that most of these documents that I used have already been admitted
3 into evidence as tendered by the Prosecution. If I'm not mistaken, it's
4 only one document, 65 ter 07052, was not admitted as tendered by the
5 Prosecution, but I do not intend to burden the case with that additional
7 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, you were on your feet when we
10 started discussing after you had informed us that you did not -- did not
11 intend to tender 07052. Would you like to add anything to that or?
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. I don't think
13 that I made a mistake. I think that all the other documents have been
14 admitted into evidence as tendered by the OTP. We did not oppose any one
15 of them. So that is what I had to say.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber may consider whether or not the
17 Chamber would like to have in evidence any document you used which is not
18 yet admitted as a P exhibit. We'll consider that. We'll look at them
19 and let the parties know if we would want any of these documents to be in
21 Judge Fluegge has one question or more questions, perhaps.
22 Questioned by the Court:
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, thank you.
24 Sir, I just would like to get a clarification. On page 9, lines
25 14 through 16, you told us something about a media report about three
1 Serbian heads that had been cut off and placed in an ammunition box. I
2 would kindly ask you to clarify. At the beginning of that sentence, you
4 "At Manjaca, we were shown three Serbian heads ..."
5 What do you mean by that, "in Manjaca"? What happened at Manjaca
6 in relation to this incident?
7 A. I just wanted to say what the context was, the time and the
8 situation in which we fought up there in terms of the conduct of our own
9 people and their attitude towards the prisoners. During those days,
10 sometime in June, near Teslic - and is Teslic is about 70 kilometres away
11 from Banja Luka, that's where the front line was - these Serb heads were
12 cut off, the heads of Serb combatants, and they were put in a box, in an
13 ammunition box, and a picture was taken of someone holding one of these
14 heads that was still bleeding.
15 So what was the situation? People were watching that. And how
16 do I put this? We are striving for the rights of the people that we are
17 holding in that camp. So this is quite a struggle. The situation --
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I have a very simple question. You are recorded
19 to have said:
20 "At Manjaca, we were shown three Serbian heads that had been cut
22 How -- how did that happen? That you were shown these heads or
23 pictures or movies of these heads at Manjaca? What happened at Manjaca
24 in relation to this event?
25 A. Well, the media, the newspapers, that's where these pictures of
1 the cut heads could be seen. In the newspapers.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And you were in Manjaca when you saw these media
3 reports. Is that the right understanding of your answer?
4 A. That's right.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you for this clarification --
6 A. And we showed that to the members of the ICRC so that they would
7 react and - how do I put this? - to have this known.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I have received your answer and the
9 clarification. That's enough. Thank you.
10 A. Thank you.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, I asked you yesterday about a
12 document you said you would use in relation to the persons which were
13 responsible for the death of Filipovic and Bender, and you said, yes, we
14 are also going to use a document. Which document did you have on your
15 mind; when and how did you use it?
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. This is a
17 report dated the 29th of July, 1992, P222. This is a document in which
18 the names of these persons are specified. Person who are suspected of
19 having committed this crime. And there's a reference to the status of
20 these persons.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. I was mainly interested in - and that's
22 what I expected, more or less - that you would also produce any documents
23 on these persons responsible being tried, especially because the witness
24 said that it happened rather late. Do you have any documentary evidence
25 which -- by which we could see when they were prosecuted? And, as
1 indicated, were sentenced to long sentences.
2 When were they prosecuted? Do you have any documentary evidence
3 for that? I'm not seeking you as a witness, but if the witness would
4 know, of course, we could ask him as well.
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 Do you know when the persons responsible for the killing of
8 Mr. Filipovic and Bender were prosecuted?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were tried before the district
10 court in Banja Luka in 2007. (redacted)
12 JUDGE ORIE: Do you know, since everything was reported, do you
13 have any knowledge about the reason why they were not prosecuted in 1993
14 or 1994 or 1995 or -- and only 15 years after the event?
15 A. I don't know. And I think that from here, from The Hague
16 Tribunal, a certain documentation arrived. There was certain evidence
17 that arrived, and it is only then that proceedings were instituted.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Is it your testimony that there was no evidence and
19 there was, at the time, available, after you reported it, after it was
20 investigated, that there was no evidence available, knowing the names of
21 the perpetrators, to start proceedings?
22 Is that your evidence?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've told you that we immediately
24 established who the perpetrators were and took statements from them and
25 did everything else that is proper by way of collecting evidence, and
1 this was kept at the district court in Banja Luka. It was brought there
2 by the on-site investigation team or whoever it was. And why proceedings
3 were not instituted all the way up until then, I really cannot say.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Is this a withdrawal of the explanation that it was
5 because evidentiary material had to be received from The Hague?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, all right. I mean, I am
7 concluding that now because there were so many searches and such a lot of
8 material was seized. Please don't misunderstand what I'm saying.
9 You asked me and I inferred that this came from this abundance of
10 material that had been seized and that then it was brought back from
11 The Hague. That is just something that I thought, but it doesn't
12 necessarily have to be the correct conclusion.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that answer.
14 Mr. Stojanovic, any further questions triggered by the questions
15 in re-examination or questions by the Bench?
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Just one question, Your Honour,
17 that is based on the question put by my learned colleague, the
19 Further Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Sir, you said that you knew part of the detainees from the
22 Manjaca centre were transferred to Batkovic at one point in time. This
23 is my question: Do you know that the ICRC had been informed about this
24 fact and that these persons were sent to Batkovic?
25 A. Certainly. The ICRC came to Manjaca very often, and they knew
1 about everything we did in relation to the prisoners. We had a few
2 exchanges, not only the people who went to Batkovic but also a few
3 exchanges of prisoners for our own combatants. These exchanges took
4 place either with the Croatian side or the Muslim side, 10 or 20 persons
5 at a time, and we also familiarised the members of the ICRC team with
6 these exchanges and names.
7 Q. I'm going to end with the following question. Since you referred
8 to these exchanges, in these exchanges were there ever exchanges that had
9 to do with civilians who had remained in the territory under the control
10 of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
11 A. I cannot say. We had only the prisoners we had, and then it was
12 the corps commission. I mean, the corps had a commission for the
13 exchange of POWs and they compiled lists, and they weighed the importance
14 of the people exchanged. They would just say to us, Can we have such and
15 such and such a person from Manjaca in order to have these people
16 exchanged for our people. Now whether they were civilians or whether
17 they were soldiers, I cannot say. I think that they were primarily
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, you announced one question which was
20 directly related to a question put by Ms. Hochhauser and now you're
21 revisiting the whole of the release, exchange, et cetera. I don't think
22 that that is what we expect you to do at this moment. Any further
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. That would be
25 all. Thank you.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Witness RM051, this concludes your evidence in this
2 court. I would to thank you very much for coming to The Hague and for
3 answered all of the questions that were put to you either by the parties
4 or by the Bench, and I wish you a safe return home again. Once the
5 curtains are down, you may follow the usher and leave the courtroom.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher could you, at the same time, escort the
8 next witness into the courtroom, if the Prosecution is ready to call its
9 next witness.
10 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
11 [The witness withdrew]
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome, no protective measures for the next
14 MR. GROOME: No, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Then curtains can be up again and the screen can be
17 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, can I ask that we go into private
18 session for a brief matter related to the next witness.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We move into private session.
20 [Private session]
12 [Open session]
13 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
15 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, if I could take advantage of these few
16 moments to say the following. Due to the limited overlap between
17 Mr. Osman Selak's statement and the adjudicated facts, we have not made
18 redactions. However, I will be limiting my examination regarding Manjaca
19 camp in reliance on adjudicated facts 460 through 472, and the attack on
20 Kozarac village in Prijedor in reliance on adjudicated facts 877 through
22 Your Honour, there is one matter that's unresolved and that's the
23 matter with respect to the chart. The Chamber wanted to think about
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The -- the parties agreed apparently on -- at
1 least there's no objections from the Defence to proceed as you suggested.
2 At the same time, but we'll address that in the near future, the
3 creativity, inventivity of the Prosecution seems to lead to a situation
4 which we wanted to avoid. With the previous witness we saw that there
5 was a long list of associated exhibits where the guidance of the Chamber
6 clearly was to limit the number. Now through these kind of charts, of
7 course, we are again receiving quite a lot of documentary evidence where
8 we wanted to put certain limits on that. We'll further consider this and
9 we might come up with further guidance for the parties, but it's not --
10 the guidance was not intended to encourage you to find other ways of
11 getting much documentary evidence and perhaps not be as critical as the
12 Chamber expects parties to be in presenting such evidence.
13 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the Prosecution has endeavoured to
14 focus this case, and I think that we've already demonstrated that. Each
15 of the attorneys that takes a witness has made a selection and that's
16 been overseen by myself or other senior members of team. We are prepared
17 at any moment to explain to the Chamber why we have made those
18 selections, so should the Chamber ever have any doubt about the purpose
19 or relevance of a particular exhibit, the Prosecution is prepared to
20 address that. The fact remains, though, that there are -- there is a
21 large body of evidence which undoubtedly is directly relevant to an
22 adjudication of this indictment.
23 [The witness entered court]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Groome.
25 Good morning, Mr. Selak. Before you give evidence --
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
2 JUDGE ORIE: -- the Rules require that you make a solemn
3 declaration. The text is now handed out to you. May I invite you to
4 make that solemn declaration.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
6 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
7 WITNESS: OSMAN SELAK
8 [Witness answered through interpreter]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed -- please be seated,
10 Mr. Selak.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE ORIE: Just to clarify matters, Mr. Groome, and in addition
14 to what I said earlier, for this witness the Chamber has accepted it, not
15 yet for any future witness, the use of these charts. It may also depend
16 on number of documents covered by the charts, et cetera. But we would
17 like to consider that on a case by case basis.
18 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. We will not proceed without
19 seeking specific amendment or exception to the Chamber's general rule.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Selak, sorry to deal with matters which you're
22 not involved in. You'll --
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please go ahead.
24 JUDGE ORIE: You will now be examined by Mr. Groome and
25 Mr. Groome is counsel for the Prosecution. You'll find him to your
2 Please proceed, Mr. Groome.
3 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Examination by Mr. Groome:
5 Q. Good morning, Mr. Selak. Could I ask you to please state your
6 full name for the record?
7 A. Osman Selak [No interpretation].
8 Q. And could you tell us where you were born?
9 A. In Visegrad, Bosnia-Herzegovina.
10 Q. And what is your ethnicity?
11 A. Muslim.
12 Q. Mr. Selak, in your statement it describes you as a retired
13 military officer. In what year did you begin your career in the
15 A. I completed the Technical Military Academy in 1958 in Zagreb,
16 Croatia. That is when I received my commission as a second lieutenant in
17 the technical services of the JNA. I was transferred to serve in
18 Banja Luka at the Tank Military Academy in Banja Luka.
19 Q. And what was the highest rank you achieved during your military
21 A. Colonel of the Yugoslav People's Army. That was my last rank.
22 Q. And can I ask you in a sentence or two to summarise your
23 responsibilities in the army during the spring and summer of 1992? What
24 was the main area that you were responsible for?
25 A. When I received the rank of colonel, I was appointed commander of
1 the logistics base of the 2nd Military District in Sarajevo. I held that
2 post until I retired and that was in 1992, the month of June -- July, I
3 beg your pardon.
4 Q. You say you retired in July of 1992. Did you remain or were you
5 in the VRS -- after -- after the JNA, at least the portion that was in
6 Bosnia, became the VRS, did you remain in the VRS for some weeks?
7 A. Your Honours, on the 18th of May, 1992, the units of the JNA that
8 were deployed in the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina were renamed the
9 Army of Republika Srpska. The units that had withdrawn from Slovenia and
10 Croatia and had arrived in the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina were also
11 renamed into the Army of Republika Srpska. An oath had to be taken to
12 the Army of Republika Srpska. However, already on the 19th of May, I
13 submitted my request for retirement because I did not want to accept to
14 become a member of the Army of Republika Srpska.
15 Q. Did you abandon your post or did you continue working until you
16 were, in fact, retired?
17 A. My request to retire was forwarded to Belgrade, since the
18 authority is there responsible for that matter. I waited for a decision
19 to be taken, and when the order arrived -- up until the order arrived on
20 the 10th of July from Belgrade, I continued to perform my duties as
21 commander of the logistics base. When the order arrived, I handed over
22 my duties to Cendic, Rade, when the order arrived for my retirement.
23 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, would that be a convenient moment to
24 take the morning break.
25 JUDGE ORIE: It is a convenient moment.
1 Mr. Groome, you referred to a statement by the witness. Now it's
2 quite common for 92 ter witnesses that we first hear the attestation to
3 the statement and that the statement is identified and then admitted into
4 evidence. We have not -- you proceeded in a different way today. I do
5 not know whether there's any specific reason for that.
6 MR. GROOME: There is, Your Honour. Essentially, it's -- this is
7 not the first witness statement the witness gave but a subsequent
8 statement and it does not contain the background, so I thought before the
9 Chamber could rule on the 92 ter, it might be best to have some idea of
10 who the witness is.
11 JUDGE ORIE: That explains your situation.
12 We'll take a break, but could the witness first be escorted out
13 of the courtroom.
14 Mr. Selak, we'd like to see you back in some 20 minutes. You may
15 follow the usher.
16 [The witness stands down]
17 JUDGE ORIE: We take a break, and we'll resume at five minutes to
18 11.00 sharp.
19 --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.
20 --- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
22 MR. GROOME: Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome.
24 MR. GROOME: The chart that we discussed prior to the break is
25 65 ter 28432. Because I am dealing with these exhibits in a summary
1 fashion, I thought it might be of assistance to the Chamber to have a
2 hard copy before them, so I've given the Court Officer a copy for each of
3 Your Honours, if you think it will assist. And Mr. Lukic has also been
4 provided a copy.
5 And the chart and the tabs on the individual documents are key to
6 that chart.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that, Mr. Groome.
8 [The witness takes the stand]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome, please proceed.
10 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 Could I ask the Court Officer to bring to our screens 65 ter
13 Q. While that's being done, Mr. Selak, do you recall giving a
14 statement to the ICTY, a statement that you signed on the 13th of July,
16 A. Yes.
17 MR. GROOME: And while it is being brought to the screen, I would
18 note for the record that the handwritten numbers next to the
19 paragraphs were added after the witness signed this statement.
20 Q. Now, Mr. Selak, we can see it on our screens and could I draw
21 your attention to the two signatures at the bottom of that first page.
22 Do you recognise either of those signatures? Apparently there are three,
23 I'm sorry. Do you recognise any of the signatures on that page?
24 A. Yes. The first signature is mine.
25 MR. GROOME: Could I now ask that we go to the last page. And
1 could I ask that we focus on the top half of the page.
2 Q. And now we can see that on our screen, Mr. Selak. And I ask you:
3 Do you recognise that signature?
4 A. Yes. That's my signature.
5 Q. In preparation for your testimony before the Chamber here today,
6 were you asked to carefully review this statement?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And did you so, in fact, carefully review it?
9 A. Yes, I did. I read through it from the beginning to the end.
10 Q. Are there any corrections that you wish to make to it?
11 A. No. I stand by all the information I provided in the statement.
12 Q. If I were to take the time this morning to ask you questions
13 similar to those that were asked when the statement was given, would your
14 answers be the same, in substance?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And now that you have taken the solemn declaration, do you affirm
17 the truthfulness and accuracy of this statement?
18 A. Yes, I do.
19 MR. GROOME: Your Honours, before I tender this statement I do
20 want to point out a typographical error, and to do that I ask that we
21 first go to paragraph 57 of the statement. It is on e-court page 9 in
22 both languages. Your Honours will see a reference to an order signed by
23 General Talic on 7 June 1992. Your Honours, this is associated exhibit
25 Now, having noted that, I would ask the Court Officer that we
1 take a quick look at 18347. It is an order signed by General Talic on 7
2 June 1993. As Your Honours will note, the date was incorrectly
3 transcribed into the statement. I will be asking the witness a few
4 questions later in my examination to explain this but did want to draw
5 Your Honours' attention to this typographical error before tendering the
6 statement. And now we can see 18347 on the screens before us.
7 Your Honours, with that explanation and with the foundation for
8 admission under 92 ter having been laid, I now tender 65 ter 28421 as the
9 next public Prosecution exhibit.
10 JUDGE ORIE: No objections.
11 Madam Registrar.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter 28421 will be Exhibit P244.
13 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
14 MR. GROOME:
15 Q. Mr. Selak, your statement at paragraphs 59 and 60 discusses a
16 meeting at which you were present in which General Talic, on the 1st of
17 June, 1992, gave an order regarding the establishment of Manjaca camp. I
18 will be asking you several questions about this meeting in a few moments,
19 but at this time I only have a very specific question for you, at this
20 point. After Manjaca was established in June of 1992, did there come a
21 time that you know it was closed, also in 1992?
22 A. The camp was officially closed in December 1992. I know this
23 from contact I had with colleagues of mine, officers. I was already
24 retired. And it was also from contact with colleagues from the VRS.
25 They said that in December the camp at the training ground for armoured
1 mechanised units in Manjaca had been closed.
2 Q. Now could I ask that 65 ter 18347 be returned to our screens, and
3 this is a document you saw only moments ago. Can I ask you to explain to
4 the Chamber your understanding of why this document is dated 1993?
5 A. This concerns the time when the Manjaca camp was opened. Again,
6 it was closed in December 1992. I assume that the intention here was to
7 establish the Manjaca camp, the prisoners of war again. That's what
8 happened. People were brought in in buses and lorries and so on and so
10 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, as set out in Schedule C item 1.2 in
11 the indictment, the period during which the Prosecution alleges crimes
12 occurred is between June and December 1992. Despite this, the
13 Prosecution at this time tenders 18347 regarding the re-opening of
14 Manjaca for the limited purpose of establishing that the VRS retained
15 control over Manjaca camp, even after the relevant period in the
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I hear of no objections.
18 Madam Registrar.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter 18347 will become
20 Exhibit P245.
21 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
22 MR. GROOME: Your Honours, there are eight exhibits associated to
23 Mr. Selak's statement now in evidence as P244. Upon review, the
24 Prosecution will not tender them all but will only tender three. And if
25 it pleases the Court, I'm prepared to enumerate them individually, if
1 that assists.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please enumerate them individually.
3 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, because of the age of this statement
4 there is no cross-reference -- easy cross-reference between the
5 associated exhibit and -- an exhibit on the 65 ter list, so I'm going to
6 read a brief description of the document as well.
7 03039, a combat report of the 1st Krajina Corps, number 44-1/156,
8 dated 1 June 1992.
9 JUDGE ORIE: No objections. No objections.
10 Madam Registrar.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, 03039 will be Exhibit P246.
12 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
13 Next one, Mr. Groome.
14 MR. GROOME: 07128, a report of the 1st Krajina Corps, number
15 474-1, dated 27 May 1992.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter 07128 will be Exhibit P247.
18 JUDGE ORIE: P247 is admitted.
19 Please, the next one.
20 MR. GROOME: The last associated exhibit the Prosecution will
21 tender, Your Honours, is 16505. It's a combat report of the 1st Krajina
22 Corps, number 44-1/259, dated 26 July 1992.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
24 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter 16505 will be Exhibit P248, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
1 P248 is admitted into evidence.
2 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, now with the permission of the Court I
3 would like to read a public summary of Mr. Selak's written evidence.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Please do.
5 MR. GROOME: Osman Selak describes the communications and command
6 and control systems in the JNA and then the VRS. He describes the
7 complete integration between the military and the civilian Crisis Staffs.
8 Mr. Selak was present at a meeting shortly after the attack on Kozarac in
9 Prijedor municipality. During that meeting, what happened at Kozarac was
10 discussed briefly, and this relates to indictment Schedule A, item 6.1.
11 Mr. Selak also describes the creation of Manjaca camp at the
12 order of General Talic and his own visit to Manjaca. And this relates to
13 indictment Schedule C, 1.2.
14 Your Honours, this concludes the public summary of Mr. Selak's
15 evidence. Of course, the entire statement is now in evidence and is
16 available to the public.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
18 MR. GROOME: Your Honours, there are two maps and two
19 organisational charts that will assist the Chamber in understanding
20 Mr. Selak's evidence. These four graphics have been combined under
21 65 ter 28431 for ease of use, and I would ask that this exhibit now be
22 called to our screens.
23 Q. Mr. Selak, while that is it being done, were you asked in
24 preparation for your testimony here this morning to review some maps and
25 some organisational charts related to your evidence?
1 A. No. Nothing was shown to me today. And no one contacted me
2 about that. There was nothing of that kind today.
3 Q. Perhaps there was a mistranslation. On the screen before you is
4 a map. Were you asked to look at this map in preparation of your
6 A. Yes. In the course of the preparation for my testimony, yes.
7 But not today.
8 Q. Now --
9 JUDGE ORIE: The -- the problem seems to be that you understood
10 "this morning" as that you were asked this morning to do it, whereas I
11 understand Mr. Groome's question to refer to in preparation of the
12 evidence you will give this morning. That apparently is causing some
14 Please proceed.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
16 MR. GROOME: I apologise for that confusion.
17 Q. Mr. Selak, we are now looking at the map of the 1st Krajina Corps
18 area of responsibility. Can I ask you to describe or tell us the
19 different locations that are indicated on the map. What is the
20 significance of these locations?
21 A. The Banja Luka Corps, Your Honours, well, its command was in
22 Banja Luka and it covered the entire territory you can see in the map
23 above the BiH letters; Glamoc, Gornji Vakuf, Jajce, Mrkonjic Grad,
24 Teslic, Doboj, Modrica, Bosanski Brod, and as far as Prijedor. It didn't
25 extend beyond Prijedor because the 2nd Krajina Corps and ABiH units were
1 present in that area.
2 Q. And the specific locations that are marked on this map, were --
3 were members of the 1st Krajina Corps in those areas?
4 A. Yes. Your Honours, the 1st Krajina Corps - I'm talking about the
5 27th of May in 1992 - had about 100.000 armed men. A normal corps, when
6 it is mobilised, has between 15- and 18.000 men, and in exceptional
7 circumstances 20.000 men. So the 1st Krajina Corps of the VRS covered
8 this entire area. Its units, brigades, regiments, and battalions were in
9 this area. They covered the entire area. They provided security for the
10 authorities of Republika Srpska.
11 MR. GROOME: Can I ask that we advance to e-court page 2.
12 Q. And Mr. Selak, when you are able to see it my first question is
13 simply: Was this one of the graphs or graphics that you were asked to
14 review before today?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And does it accurately depict the command structure and the
17 personal in that command structure at the time you left the VRS?
18 A. Yes, it does.
19 Q. Now, in your statement, P244 in evidence, you mention a
20 Colonel Marcetic. Is that person indicated on this map? If so, can you
21 direct us to where using words since we will not be able to see where you
23 A. It's the third person from the one on the top. Where it says the
24 corps command, if you go down, it's the third person below. You have
25 Talic and then Kelecevic, and then beneath him, Dragan Marcetic,
1 assistant chief of staff for operations in the corps command in
2 Banja Luka.
3 MR. GROOME: Could we now please advance to e-court page 3.
4 Q. Colonel Selak, you were the commander of the VRS 14th Logistics
5 Base for a period of time. Does this map accurately reflect the 14th
6 Logistics Base area of responsibility?
7 A. Yes, it does.
8 Q. Did Manjaca camp fall within the area of responsibility of the
9 14th Logistics Base?
10 A. Yes. The Manjaca camp was under the command of the
11 Krajina Corps. The Military Academy for Tanks for the JNA was there
12 before the war. Its command was in Banja Luka. But when the war broke
13 out, all the areas fell under the responsibility of the Krajina Corps.
14 So the training compound in Manjaca - that's what we call it because they
15 fired from tanks on tanks there, you'd test ammunition, obstacles would
16 be set up, the area covered about 700 hectares, and this was under the
17 responsibility of the Krajina Corps.
18 Q. Now the only specific question I'd like to ask you at this stage
19 about Manjaca camp is the following. Given your experience in supplying
20 that facility, are you able to tell us how many people that facility was
21 designed to accommodate? In other words, can you tell us with respect to
22 the size of its shelters and the quantity of its sanitary facilities
23 approximately how many people was it designed to house?
24 A. In peacetime when it functioned as a training ground for firing
25 exercises, for tank manoeuvres, the people who worked there and the
1 soldiers doing their military service, well, there were about 70 or 80 of
2 them, but when other units came for the target practice then the number
3 would increase. Some of them could have been in -- accommodated in some
4 of the facilities of the training ground. Others had to use tents.
5 Tents had to be put up to accommodate them.
6 Q. And based on your experience, what would be the approximate
7 maximum number of people that could be properly housed there?
8 A. I was performing my duties at the compound for two years. I know
9 all the facilities very well. The maximum number that could be
10 accommodated in the buildings was between 150 and 170. I'm not sure, but
11 roughly speaking it would be about 170 people. Perhaps if they used
12 those military bunk beds, perhaps if they used such beds about 200 people
13 could be accommodated.
14 MR. GROOME: Finally, can we look at e-court page 4.
15 Q. And, Colonel Selak, my question to you regarding this document is
16 whether it is an organisational chart of the personnel involved in
17 logistics in the VRS at the time you left military service.
18 A. Yes.
19 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, at this time the Prosecution tenders
20 these four graphics, 65 ter 28431, as a public exhibit.
21 JUDGE ORIE: In the absence of any objections.
22 Madam Registrar.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours 65 ter 28431 whether become
24 Exhibit P249.
25 JUDGE ORIE: P249 is admitted into evidence.
1 MR. GROOME: Could I now ask that 28432 be brought to our
3 Q. Mr. Selak, in preparation for your testimony, were you asked to
4 review eight military documents and make any observations you might have
5 on both the authenticity of the document as well as its content?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Were you asked to record your observations in a chart?
8 A. Yes. And my signature -- and the signature.
9 Q. Now -- 28432 is on the screen now. It does not have any of your
10 handwriting on it.
11 MR. GROOME: Could I ask that we advance to the second page.
12 Q. And, Mr. Selak, are those -- that's your signature that appears
13 on this page?
14 A. Yes.
15 MR. GROOME: Could I ask that we go to the last page.
16 Q. And is that your signature on this page.
17 A. Yes, the 24th of December, 2012.
18 Q. Sir --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Which is a surprising date.
20 MR. GROOME: Yes.
21 Q. Sir, when did you sign this document?
22 A. I apologise. I signed it yesterday. I see that the year is
23 2012. It was a slip. I do apologise. It's my mistake.
24 Q. So you say --
25 A. September. September. I apologise. It was a slip.
1 Q. Having corrected that, does this document accurately -- or does
2 it contain your observations regarding the documents that you reviewed?
3 A. Yes, it does.
4 Q. Are you willing to answer any additional questions the Mladic
5 Defence or the Chamber may have about this chart or these documents?
6 A. Yes, I am.
7 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, in keeping with my proposal, I will
8 postpone my tendering of 28432 and the underlying documents until
9 Mr. Lukic has an opportunity to explore this area with Mr. Selak.
10 JUDGE ORIE: We'll proceed as you suggest.
11 MR. GROOME: Your Honours, I would like to ask Mr. Selak an
12 additional question regarding one of the documents in this chart. It is
13 65 ter 02838. Could I ask that that be please brought to our screens.
14 Q. Mr. Selak, I'm going to ask you to look at the first page of this
15 document. It's one of the documents you've seen before. Once you've had
16 a moment to orient yourself to which document, could I ask that we go to
17 e-court page 2. That's in both languages. The portion that I'm
18 interested in is in the middle of the original and at the top of the
20 Sir, if you look at page 2 of this report, it speaks about 7.000
21 people being arrested and that 2.000 of them were taken to Omarska, and
22 it identifies these people as Green Berets. Can I ask you to tell us
23 whether, based on your knowledge, at the time this is an accurate
25 A. Yes, they were arrested, but it wasn't the Green Berets. Far
1 more people were arrested. The inhabitants of these municipalities that
2 are mentioned, and in particular Prijedor and Kozarac municipalities.
3 Camps were established around Prijedor, Hambarine, Trnopolje, and there
4 was another one. Three camps were established and the Muslim inhabitants
5 were placed in them. The Muslim inhabitants who lived in that area.
6 They were placed in those camps Hambarine, Trnopolje, and Omarska, yes.
7 There were women, children, and elderly people. There were no
8 Green Berets because those inhabitants had no weapons apart from hunting
9 weapons that they had from before the war. Some people had pistols.
10 However, the houses were searched. These items were seized or
11 confiscated and there was no fighting.
12 MR. GROOME: Your Honours, there are two large, albeit important,
13 documents on the Prosecution's 65 ter list. It is not my intention to
14 tender them at this moment, but this witness is uniquely positioned to
15 describe their purpose and use, and I will lead evidence on that now.
16 Could I ask that the witness be shown 65 ter 18351.
17 Q. Mr. Selak, when this document appears before you I have a few
18 very specific and limited questions about it. My first question is: Do
19 you recognise the type of book that this book is?
20 A. This is a log-book which contains all the documents signed by the
21 authorised officer. Documents sent to subordinate units but reports were
22 sent to superiors. So all these documents have to be entered in this
23 log-book and they have to be certified with a stamp. They are then
24 attributed numbers.
25 Q. Was -- was it required to maintain a book such as this in
1 commands both in the JNA and in the VRS, at least for the period while
2 you were in the VRS?
3 A. That was a legal requirement. All the units had to have such
4 log-books because documents that hadn't been certified, that hadn't been
5 numbered, were not valid documents.
6 MR. GROOME: Could I now ask that we call 65 ter 14871 to our
7 screens. And, again, I'll have the same very specific and limited
8 questions regarding this book.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 MR. GROOME:
11 Q. Do you recognise what this book is?
12 A. Your Honours, this is a war diary. During any war, there's a
13 special war diary where you enter special events in the area where war
14 operations take place. For each and every unit, we had to record what
15 its activities were. Here you see the date. From the 24th of June to
16 the 30th of August. During that time, same major operations were going
17 on. The war diary did not have so many pages, so we had to use the
18 second and the third and the fourth book, and this is proof that some
19 operation was carried out legally and that everything was done by the
21 Q. Thank you, Mr. Selak.
22 MR. GROOME: Your Honours, having elicited this information about
23 the books and their use, the Prosecution does not seek to tender them or
24 to have them marked for identification at this time. We would rather
25 leave them -- or propose to leave them identified only by their 65 ter
1 number if that is acceptable to the Court.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome, we recently received a lengthy
3 explanation about the system. It means that what is under your 65 ter
4 number in e-court you could replace it as long as it's not MFI'd or
5 admitted by whatever. Now, I'm not suggesting that you would intend to
6 do that, but at the same time we'd not be certain that what we find later
7 under the same 65 ter number would be the same as what was shown to the
8 witness. Therefore, I suggest that it be MFI'd.
9 MR. GROOME: That is perfectly acceptable to the Prosecution,
10 Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
12 Madam Registrar.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter 18351 will be P250, marked
14 for identification. And 65 ter 14871 will be P251, marked for
16 JUDGE ORIE: P250 and P251 are marked for identification.
17 Please proceed.
18 MR. GROOME:
19 Q. Now, Mr. Selak, I would like to draw your attention to the time
20 you left the VRS. And you say in paragraph 65 of your statement at P244,
21 you resigned from the army because of an attitude of complete Serb
22 domination. Did you resign freely or did you feel compelled to resign?
23 A. I left of my own will. I knew that some negative activities
24 would ensue. Letters arrived from political organisations, from Crisis
25 Staffs, and in those letters it said that Muslims and Croats should be
1 removed from the VRS. I knew that in advance. I knew in advance what to
2 expect, and that's why on the 19th of May, 1992, I asked to be pensioned
3 off because I knew I would be controlled. I had received telephone
4 threats. In the media, I read that I should leave the army, together
5 with another 18 Serbs. And that's why I left the army.
6 MR. GROOME: Could I ask that we now see 65 ter 18356 on our
7 screens. It is the transcript of a radio broadcast. When it appears on
8 the screen before you, Mr. Selak, my first question is simply: Did you
9 have an opportunity to review this document in preparation for your
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Can you tell us what it is.
13 A. This information was on Radio Banja Luka and in the morning news.
14 This is about requests to differentiate between the VRS officers along
15 the ethnic lines. Apparently there was a fear that Bosniaks and Croats
16 might impair the unity of command in the VRS.
17 Q. At the time -- or around the time that you left the VRS, do you
18 recall hearing radio broadcasts of similar or of the same substance as
20 A. Yes.
21 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, at this time I'd ask that 65 ter 18356
22 be admitted into evidence as a public exhibit.
23 JUDGE ORIE: No objections.
24 Madam Registrar.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter 18356 will be Exhibit P252.
1 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
2 MR. GROOME:
3 Q. Mr. Selak, in paragraphs 86 and 87 of your statement, you briefly
4 mention a meeting on 27 May 1992 in which the attack on Kozarac was
5 discussed. I would like to go into a bit more detail about that meeting.
6 Before I ask you what happened at that meeting, I first want to
7 ask you some very specific questions about the purpose of the meeting,
8 who was present, and how the people at the meeting were seated so that
9 the Chamber can better understand your evidence. My first question: How
10 many people attended this meeting on the 27th of May?
11 A. I believe that there were anything between 10 and 12 people, not
12 more. Those were the corps commander, his assistants, and myself as the
13 commander of the logistics base in Banja Luka.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could we perhaps have a document P244 on the
15 screen. Then it's easier to follow.
16 MR. GROOME: Yes. Could that please be done, P244.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Paragraphs 86 and 87.
18 MR. GROOME:
19 Q. Now when you said "corps commander," do you mean by that
20 General Talic?
21 A. Yes, I do.
22 Q. And when you say "assistants," do you mean other senior members
23 of the 1st Krajina Corps?
24 A. Your Honours, I meant the assistants of the corps commander
25 because the corps commander had several assistants. The chief for
1 security, morale, logistics, for political situations, and so on and so
2 forth. All of them had to be present during that briefing, and if the
3 assistants were not available, their deputies had to attend. It was a
4 kind of a briefing and each of the sectors had to be represented to brief
5 the commander about the activities from within their purviews.
6 And I attended as the commander of the logistics base, which
7 provided logistical support to the 1st Corps of the VRS. I had to be
8 briefed about any of the problems concerning logistics. In order to gain
9 time, as soon as I heard about the problems, I immediately ordered my
10 assistants to start dealing with those problems. That's why the corps
11 commander had invited me to attend the meeting in the first place.
12 Q. Mr. Selak, just a couple of more specific questions before I ask
13 you to tell us more about what happened during that meeting. Where did
14 the meeting take place?
15 A. That meeting took place at the corps command in the meeting room.
16 Not in the commander's office. Next to his office, there was a meeting
17 room which could accommodate up to 15 people. Various meetings used to
18 take place there involving organs of the civilian authorities as part of
19 the communication between the army and the civilian authorities.
20 Q. Just want to give the Chamber some idea about what this room
21 looked like. Can you describe what was in that room? Was there a table
22 in the room? Was it simply chairs? What was in that room?
23 A. There was a -- a long table with chairs on both sides of the
24 table. It could accommodate up to 15 to 16 people. The commander was at
25 the head of the table, and all the S and Ds were seated following a
1 certain order. The commander's Chief of Staff was next to the commander,
2 then the chief of security and other assistants for morale guidance and
3 so on and so forth. And there was also, if I may mention this straight
4 away, at that meeting on that day the assistant commander for operations
5 and education was also there, and he was also the head of the management
6 team for that day, Colonel Dragan Marcetic.
7 Q. Now let's just take it step by step so the Chamber has a clear
8 step of this meeting. You said that General Talic was at the head of the
9 table. Where was Colonel Dragan --
10 A. Talic.
11 Q. Where was -- where was Colonel Dragan Marcetic with respect to
12 where -- in relationship to where General Talic was sitting?
13 A. I would like to illustrate that. For example, if you extend this
14 desk where I'm standing by the length of three or four such desks,
15 General Talic was at head. On the right-hand side was
16 Colonel Busko Jelecevic, his deputy. Colonel Dragan Marcetic was sitting
17 next to him. He was the chief of the operations and education. And the
18 other officers and the assistants of the corps commander and -- were
19 here, and I was sitting immediately next to Dragan Marcetic. The other
20 assistants were further along the table. They were seated in a circle.
21 And that was a briefing and the meeting.
22 Q. Let me see if I can capture what you've done -- you've motioned
23 somewhat with your hands. Am I correct in saying that General Talic was
24 at the head of the table and to his right along the right-hand side of
25 the table were a number of people --
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. -- including Colonel Marcetic and yourself?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And am I correct in saying that you were further away from
5 General Talic than Marcetic?
6 A. Yes. I was sitting next to Marcetic. The first person to --
7 next to the general was Bosko Kelecevic, then Marcetic, and then myself.
8 So I was the third in line from the -- from Talic.
9 Q. Now my last question before I ask you to describe what happened
10 at that meeting is the following. Can you briefly summarise what
11 Colonel Marcetic's area of responsibility was?
12 A. According to establishment, he was the assistant commander for
13 operations and education in the corps.
14 However, in the corps command during the war there existed what
15 you may call the management team and one of the colonels had to head it.
16 That management team, Your Honours, acted on behalf of the commander and
17 was in command of all the units in the corps. The commander moved
18 through the zone of responsibility of the corps, so all the units sent
19 their reports to the command. Those reports were received by the team on
20 duty, the management team. When the commander returned to the command,
21 the head of the management team briefed the commander what had happened
22 while he was away, and that's why that management team also issued orders
23 on behalf of the commander. Those orders were sent to the units. And
24 that team knew what the commander's order would be, and then they
25 reported back to the commander. On that day, the head of the management
1 team was Colonel Dragan Marcetic. He briefed the commander as to what
2 had been taking place in the corps units in the area on that particular
4 Q. Now, Mr. Selak, I want to ask you another question, and a simple
5 yes or no at this moment. Did there come a time when Colonel Marcetic
6 gave a report on Kozarac?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now can I ask you to describe for the Chamber slowly and in some
9 detail that report and what happened over the course of him giving that
10 report? Can you do that for us?
11 A. Your Honours, during the briefing, when Colonel Dragan Marcetic
12 briefed the general, he did it in this way. General, sir, 800 people
13 were killed today in Kozarac. And while he was saying 800 people,
14 General Talic spontaneously looked in my direction, because I was the
15 only Bosniak, the only Muslim at that meeting, and he knew that only
16 Muslims lived in Kozarac and that Muslims were killed. He suddenly felt
17 that he did wrong to look at me and then he turned his eyes towards
18 Colonel Marcetic and ordered him this. Dragan, you must mean 80 people,
19 and this is what you want to report to the Main Staff of the Army of
20 Republika Srpska, and that report was sent and we have a document in
21 which it says that between 80 and 100 people were killed.
22 And, Your Honours, in my log-book from 1991, I entered that 800
23 people had been killed. Unfortunately, Your Honours, Colonel Marcetic,
24 knowing that I was there, already reduced the number from the original
25 1200 to 800. At the institute for war crimes in Sarajevo, we are
1 currently investigating that crime. Unfortunately, the number was much
2 higher. I apologise.
3 Q. I know that you have your book with you, but we have a digital
4 version and I will ask that the Judges take a look at that before you
5 conclude your evidence, okay.
6 Given the context of the meeting and what transpired during --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome if you look at the very last line of the
8 statement of the witness, the witness -- and if you look his last answer,
9 especially page 47, line 15, could you try to resolve this slight
11 [Prosecution counsel confer]
12 MR. GROOME: Just give me a moment, Your Honour.
13 Q. I believe --
14 A. Yes, yes.
15 Q. -- His Honour is concerned with the number that you've just said.
16 Can you -- what did you write at the time and then what's your
17 understanding since that time?
18 A. I made a note that 800 people were killed and 1200 taken
19 prisoner. However, in addition to the 1200 prisoners, we have combined
20 information that over 1200 were killed. Those who were taken prisoner
21 were imprisoned at the Trnopolje and Keraterm camps. There was a larger
22 number of dead. And that's why construction machinery was sent there in
23 order to bury all those who were killed. I did not put that in my
24 statement, but I do know that construction machinery was sent there and
25 not all the dead bodies have been discovered.
1 Q. Can I ask that we look at the last paragraph of your statement.
2 We can see it in English but I don't believe we can see it in your
3 language yet. And in it you refer to 2.000 people. Can I ask you to
4 tell us what you mean by this number. What people are you precise --
5 precisely, what people are you referring to?
6 A. We spoke about Prijedor. However, within I mentioned the figure
7 of 2.000, I also included Sanski Most and Bosanski Brod or, rather,
8 Bosanski Novi which were the neighbouring municipalities. However, to
9 this very day we have not been able to locate all the bodies. The figure
10 of dead from those municipalities is about 2.000 according to the
11 statements of the inmates of Keraterm and Trnopolje. We have their
12 statements at the War Crimes Institute in Sarajevo.
13 MR. GROOME: Your Honours, does that address -- address your
14 concern? I can explore it more deeply.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I would like to ask one clarifying question.
16 Mr. Selak, could I ask you to carefully read, especially
17 paragraph 86, and we have to move to the previous page in B/C/S.
18 It reads that:
19 "... in Kozarac, over a roadblock, 800 dead, 1200 captured ..."
20 The 2.000 people dead, you said, Well, there were even more than
21 800 dead. Did you then already refer to an area wider than Kozarac?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Your Honours, this is an
23 official report by the organs of the corps command. Everybody knew that
24 international laws of war were violated. That's why the true information
25 was hidden. Unfortunately, this figure is already high, but the true
1 figure is much higher than that.
2 JUDGE ORIE: So the 800 may have been true for Kozarac; but for
3 the wider area, there were more than 800 dead, if I understand you well,
4 even 2.000 persons.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Now you say in paragraph 87:
7 "The facts were that 2.000 people were dead."
8 It is your belief that Marcetic already reduced this number to
9 800. But the 800 mentioned in paragraph 86 are just Kozarac. Would that
10 mean that he -- in reporting, he reduced by limiting the area to only
11 Kozarac, that he thus limited the number of people killed? Or were there
12 even more than 800 people killed at a roadblock in Kozarac?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, who was it who
14 counted those who were killed by the VRS tried to reduce the number
15 deliberately. Secondly, Your Honour, when I heard that information I
16 warranted to go to Kozarac personally to see what had happened there.
17 However, my deputy, Colonel Radic Cendic told me, Commander, you can't go
18 there. My deputy was a Serb from Serbia proper. He was afraid that I
19 would be killed if I saw that. That's why I didn't go there.
20 This is the official figure which was recorded in their own
21 records. However, in the report that they sent to the Main Staff, they
22 mentioned only 80 people who were killed. So the number was largely
23 reduced in order for the commander to avoid personal responsibility
24 because the laws of war were violated. It was a genocide, Your Honours.
25 Besides Srebrenica, I personally claim that another genocide was
1 committed in Kozarac.
2 JUDGE ORIE: That's -- you've answered my question. You say
3 General Talic reduced the number by saying only 80, not 800. And, as I
4 understand you, you -- the counting of 800 dead in Kozarac may have been
5 not fully in line with the actual number of people that died in Kozarac
6 and the wider area. Is that a fair summary of your answer?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Unfortunately, those are the
8 facts that we are currently researching at the institute, and we have
9 arrived at a larger figure than that.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You may proceed, Mr. Groome. But I'm also
11 looking at the clock.
12 MR. GROOME: I'll try to time it so that we pause at the break.
13 Q. Mr. Selak, paragraphs 59 and 60 of your statement, now in
14 evidence as P244, briefly describe a meeting that you were present at
15 during which General Talic gave an order with respect to Manjaca camp. I
16 want to ask you a few more detailed questions about this meeting before
17 we take a break. And the first question is: Can you simply tell us
18 where did this meeting take place?
19 A. It was a briefing held in Commander Talic's office.
20 Q. And can you describe what happened at that meeting with respect
21 to Manjaca? Limit yourself to Manjaca.
22 A. This was a briefing. The assistant commanders briefed the
23 commander. And when General Talic took the floor, he said that at
24 Manjaca training ground a prisoner of war camp should be set up to
25 accommodate approximately 2500 people. I have that figure in my official
1 diary that I have here. There were some other issues that were raised at
2 that meeting and they were all recorded in my war diary, which was also
3 my official log-book.
4 Q. Mr. Selak, I think it probably best to wait until after the break
5 to show Their Honours that book. But let me ask you a few questions
6 about that book. Were officers like yourself required to maintain a
7 military notebook?
8 A. Your Honours, all the officers were obliged to keep official
9 log-books, and we also had a war diary that we have just seen recently,
10 and no officer was allowed to enter my office without that log-book
11 because they were supposed to enter all the tasks that they received, and
12 any court will take that as evidence if there were some problems or
13 issues with an individual's command responsibility. There were two types
14 of --
15 Q. Was it expected --
16 JUDGE ORIE: The simple answer was yes. You explain a lot. If
17 Mr. Groome is interested to hear more about it, he'll have some follow-up
18 questions for you.
19 Required to maintain a military --
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.
21 JUDGE ORIE: The answer is yes.
22 Please proceed.
23 MR. GROOME:
24 Q. Was it expected that the officers complete or fill out their
25 notebooks at the time the even or the meeting took place? In other
1 words, was it to be contemporaneous with whatever it was they were
3 A. It was their obligation. At that meeting, they had to record all
4 the issues, not only those from within their purview but from the purview
5 of other organs because that was a record of what was going on at the
6 level of their units. They had to make a note of that because if you
7 don't make a note of things in the log-books, you tended to forget.
8 Every officer had to make a note of all the issues that were raised and
9 debated at the meeting as well as any orders that were issued.
10 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, is that a convenient moment to take a
12 JUDGE ORIE: It is a convenient moment to take a break.
13 Could the witness first be escorted out of the courtroom.
14 We'd like to see you back in 20 minutes.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
16 [The witness stands down]
17 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at 20 minutes past 12.00.
18 --- Recess taken at 12.00 p.m.
19 --- On resuming at 12.22 p.m.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
21 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, while that's happening if I could just
22 raise a scheduling matter.
23 I've just spoken with the Defence with respect to advancing a
24 witness. I am concerned that next week we may not be able to make full
25 use of the hearing time given the pace that we are proceeding, so I've
1 just discussed with Mr. Lukic the possibility of advancing RM081 from
2 week ten into the Friday of week nine. He hasn't expressed a view on it
3 yet. Perhaps we can raise it before the end of this week to see if the
4 Chamber would permit such an advance, but, anyway, just to try and make
5 efficient use of court time.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I take it that Mr. Lukic will make up his mind
7 as to whether he opposes or not. It's usually more important for the
8 Defence to know in advance than it is for the Chamber.
9 MR. LUKIC: When we are informed in a timely manner like this, we
10 wouldn't have any objections, of course.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is -- like this, you consider this a timely.
12 Does that mean that you do not oppose, Mr. Lukic? I'm trying to fully
13 understand your words.
14 MR. LUKIC: I don't by heart if all the deadlines are respected
15 like 92 ter 30-day deadline. But if it's --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. We'll further hear from you whether it meets
17 any opposition or not.
18 [The witness takes the stand]
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE ORIE: Welcome back, Mr. Selak.
21 Mr. Groome.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Your Honour. Could I ask that 65 ter
24 08797 be brought to our screens.
25 Q. Mr. Selak, just prior to the break we were talking about military
1 notebooks in general, and I want to now ask you one more general
2 question, then some specific questions about your practice, your
3 notebooks. First, was there an obligation once a military notebook was
4 completed, was filled, that it be turned in?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, when you left the military service, did you turn in your
7 last notebook?
8 A. I did not.
9 Q. We can see on the screens before us a notebook. Do you recognise
10 this book, or the page that we see on the screen?
11 A. Yes. That is my notebook. And the date is the 9th of -- 19th of
12 December, 1991. That is when I started using that notebook.
13 Q. And is this the book that you used until the time that you left
14 military service?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Without taking -- without going to your brief-case, did you bring
17 the original with you to The Hague?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Should the Chamber, Mr. Mladic, or his attorneys wish to view the
20 original, are you willing to make it available for them to look at?
21 A. Yes.
22 MR. GROOME: Your Honours, it is my intention now to look at a
23 excerpt of the book, the pages that are directly relevant to the meetings
24 today. It's not beyond all possibility that some point later in the
25 trial the Chamber may wish to -- or the Prosecution or the Defence may
1 wish to tender another entry from the book, so I'll be guided by the
2 Chamber whether it would prefer that I seek to mark it for identification
3 now or to leave it as is and simply tender the pages. I do want the
4 foundation that has just been laid to be connected to the book should it
5 ever be needed or other excerpts be needed in the future.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Let me consult with my colleagues for a second.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome, the Chamber accepts that you use only an
9 excerpt at this moment. However, if later on portions should be added to
10 it, because we then will have to decide whether we make new exhibit
11 numbers or whether we include them with the -- with leave of the Chamber
12 in the existing ones, it is important that you refer to dates primarily,
13 and to -- if there are page numbers, not exceptionally not the e-court
14 page numbers but the page numbers of the notebook itself.
15 And there I already see a possible first problem. Because on my
16 English version on the first page I see a number 1 at the bottom of the
17 page; whereas, in the original, I do not see -- not see a corresponding
18 number 1. But for the time being, we can proceed as you suggest. But
19 dates are, at this moment, most important, and perhaps you could also use
20 ERN numbers which are found in the original so that it's easier to
21 retrieve pages at a later stage in this original.
22 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. And with respect to the concern
23 that the Chamber raised earlier with respect to another large document, I
24 would note that this book has been tendered and admitted into evidence in
25 its entirety in several other cases, so the Chamber would be able --
1 would have the means to confirm that the original 65 ter number hasn't --
2 hasn't changed.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But I -- yes. But I take it that the pages
4 you're going to use, that they -- you're tendering those as part of
5 this -- today's excerpt?
6 MR. GROOME: I have a subsidiary derivative exhibit, Your Honour.
7 The same 65 ter number but with the letter A, and it is simply the
8 meeting notes from the two meetings that have been discussed here today.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed as suggested.
10 MR. GROOME:
11 Q. Mr. Selak, yesterday did I ask you to identify the pages in your
12 notebook which contained your contemporaneous meetings of the two
13 meetings which you've given evidence about today, the one related to
14 Kozarac and the one related to Manjaca?
15 A. Yes.
16 MR. GROOME: Could I now ask that we have on our screens 08797A.
17 These are pages taken -- or a selection of four pages taken from
18 Mr. Selak's notebook. They are pages 117, 118, 124, and 125 of the
19 original e-court pages; and e-court pages 150, 151, 158, and 159 of the
20 English translation.
21 Q. Now, Mr. Selak, we can see one of the pages before us. We can
22 zoom in to either side if that assists. But can you tell us which
23 meeting this particular entry refers to?
24 A. No, the other one. Yes, yes, this is it. That's the meeting at
25 the commander's, the commander of the 5th Krajina Corps. I attended the
1 meeting and I jotted down the questions that were dealt with at the
3 Q. And is this the meeting in which Kozarac was discussed?
4 A. Yes. You can see it here, the third question dealt with: "In
5 Kozarac, because of a roadblock," alleged roadblock, "800 dead, 1200
6 captured." Your Honours, this is the 343rd Motorised Brigade that did
8 Q. Am I correct - and so that we mark it clearly for the record -
9 that your note on this meeting begins on the internally numbered page of
10 your notebook, page number 223.
11 A. Yes. 223, that's right.
12 MR. GROOME: Can we advance to the next page and look at 224.
13 And this is the internal number on the notebook itself.
14 Q. Does this also contain some notes --
15 A. Yes.
16 MR. GROOME: Can I ask that we advance to e-court page 3 of
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome, we cannot verify the number at the top
19 of the page because it's --
20 MR. GROOME: Could we please return to it, to the page that --
21 the second page, and focus on the top left-hand corner.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. Thank you.
23 MR. GROOME: Could we now please advance to the third page.
24 Q. And can you guide us to where the -- the text or your notes
25 about -- that are relevant to your evidence begin. On the left-hand page
1 or the right-hand page? And then we'll zoom in.
2 A. On the right-hand side, there is the total number of personnel in
3 the corps and other attached units, so it's about one hundred one
4 thousand men. So on the 1st of June in terms of the food that had to be
5 provided by the logistics base, that was the personnel level of the 1st
6 Krajina Corps and its subordinated units in the field.
7 Q. Mr. Selak can you guide us to where your notes about the meeting
8 in which Manjaca was discussed? Can you guide us to where your notes on
9 that meeting begin?
10 A. It's not on this page. No, not Manjaca. Now --
11 Q. Can we --
12 A. No. We'll have to look further on. Manjaca is not here.
13 MR. GROOME: Can we please advance to the next page in e-court.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's it. 997. Your page
15 997. Page -- or, rather, bullet point 4. These are the orders of the
16 corps commander, the 4th task, the fourth point is that POW camp at
17 Manjaca should urgently be established for approximately 2.500 persons.
19 MR. GROOME: And according to the internal numbering of the
20 notebook it is page 238, and according to the evidence stamp of the
21 Office of the Prosecutor that number ends in 6997.
22 Your Honours, at this time the Prosecution tenders these pages 65
23 ter 0797A [sic] as a public exhibit.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, 65 ter 08797A will be Exhibit P253.
1 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
2 MR. GROOME:
3 Q. Mr. Selak, the Chamber over the course of the last few weeks has
4 received evidence describing Manjaca and the conditions there. Did you
5 ever personally visit Manjaca while it was being used to detain
6 prisoners? After this order was given.
7 A. Yes, I did visit the camp at Manjaca. May I give a boarder
8 explanation, Your Honours?
9 Q. I'm going to --
10 JUDGE ORIE: I invite you to listen to the questions carefully
11 and answer them. Mr. Groome is limited in his time.
12 Please proceed.
13 MR. GROOME:
14 Q. Can ask you, and this is my last question for you here today, is
15 can you describe for the Chamber what you observed when you went and
16 visited Manjaca? And if you could begin telling us when precisely it was
17 that you visited the camp.
18 A. Your Honours, the second day after this meeting, the assistant
19 corps commander for logistics, Colonel Vaso Tepsic and I took one car and
20 General Talic, the corps commander, took another car and we went to
21 Manjaca together. General Talic went to see the commander of the
22 training grounds up there, Colonel Popovic, and Colonel Tepsic and I went
23 to the former stables. I mean, that's where stables, barns were for
24 cattle, and now they were used for putting up prisoners of war.
25 Colonel Tepsic and I entered these buildings, and we found about 100 to
1 130 men there. Some of them had been beaten up. You could see blood on
2 their faces and on their clothing. Some of them were naked to the waist.
3 They were working on cleaning the barns of the waste, the cattle waste
4 that had remained. That's how they were put up there. The officer who
5 was on duty issued an order to them that said, Attention. None of them
6 moved. They all lowered their heads. It was terrible. I mean, the
7 very -- the very image that I saw then, I tell you, it sends shivers down
8 my spine to this day.
9 Then we went to Colonel Popovic. However, he said that he would
10 take other measures. Unfortunately, quite a few people were killed in
11 this camp. First they were beaten up, and later on they succumbed to the
12 wounds due to their mistreatment. However, there are records - I don't
13 have them personally, but there are records of the names and surnames of
14 the persons who were mistreated and thereby killed.
15 Q. Mr. Selak, earlier today at transcript page 34 you said that the
16 Manjaca complex was approximately 700 hectares. My question to you is:
17 Are you able to estimate how much of this 700 hectares was reserved for
18 the detention of prisoners? What part of it was used to keep these
19 people detained?
20 A. I personally think that there were six or seven buildings there,
21 prefabricated buildings that were used as cattle barns before. So the
22 area is perhaps a hectare and a half or two, because there was free space
23 among the buildings. I never actually measured it. But it seems to be,
24 say, one and a half hectares or two. It was to the left of the main road
25 that led to these training grounds, and on the right-hand side there were
1 proper buildings for the command, headquarters, for soldiers manning the
2 training grounds.
3 Q. Thank you, Mr. Selak, for answering my questions.
4 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I have no further questions at this
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Groome.
7 Since we have dealt with your diary, could I take you back to the
8 excerpt, the four pages under the number A. And could I have a look at
9 the second page in English.
10 Mr. Selak, I think we have it here. One second, please. Yes.
11 Could we zoom in under upper half of the ...
12 This is the last part of your report on a meeting with the
13 5th Corps commander on the 27th of May.
14 The last line reads:
15 "He is against the war option, 800 killed."
16 Could you tell me who is the "he" in this sentence and what does
17 this actually mean? If you remember.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this last question
19 where it says "he is against the war option" and then he is surprised by
20 the fact that 800 persons were killed, he was afraid because it was
21 international law of war that had been violated. These were civilians.
22 The population of Kozarac. And that is why his order was to report that
23 80 persons were casualties there. Even that is too much. Somebody
24 should have been held responsibility. However, he was afraid that this
25 information would reach the command of the army and that he would be held
1 responsible as the superior officer because he had not taken measures
2 against the perpetrator of this crime.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Just to make sure that I do understand it. Is
4 this General Talic, then, "he," or is it ...
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. These are bullet
6 points. And the corps commander spoke about this at this meeting. So if
7 you look at this other one that has to do with the Chief of Staff,
8 Main Staff, analyse the food rations for the troops of the 5th Corps and
9 others, so he is issuing orders to have this analyses carried out. All
10 of these are orders of the commander of the 5th Corps of the Army of
11 Republika Srpska.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Now, to fully understand this line, if you say, He
13 is again the war option, that is ambiguous language. It could mean that
14 he is against --
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The corps commander, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: If you wait for one second.
17 It could mean that he is against going to war or continue the
18 war, because, already, 800 people have been killed. It could also be
19 that you say he is against the war option, he is against reporting it as
20 a war event, those 800 killed. Could you elaborate a little bit more
21 about what now exactly it means that he is against the war option? Is
22 that part -- is that related to the reporting on the events, or is it
23 related to what General Talic would like to happen in the future?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Your Honour, I understand the
1 I personally knew General Talic very well. Basically he was not
2 a bad man. However, he carried out -- he had to carry out the orders of
3 his superior command. He was carrying out orders. I also think that he
4 was not pleased by this number of citizens who had lost their lives. He
5 had to report about that, but he had to take disciplinary measures
6 against the perpetrators and that's the commander of the 343rd Command
7 Motorised Brigade in Prijedor. However, no measures were taken,
8 Your Honour. As a matter of fact, that commander, later on, received the
9 rank of colonel. But Talic was carrying out orders of his superior
11 JUDGE ORIE: Now let me verify whether I understood your answer.
12 Is it that General Talic expressed that he was not happy with the
13 conflict to be resolved by armed force and referred to the 800 people
14 already killed and that he would prefer another option than armed force.
15 Is that how I have to understand it?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. General Talic
17 officially stated that, that he was not in favour of the war option.
18 However, the corps did exist and he carried out -- he implemented the
19 policy of the government of Republika Srpska. He had to do that because
20 he was their organ. I personally think that General Talic was not in
21 favour of that war option. In this area where Muslims were a majority
22 population, there were well known operations carried out even during the
23 Second World War. Unfortunately, many people lost their lives then as
24 well. I don't know about the future, what it's going to be like either.
25 JUDGE ORIE: You've answered my question.
1 Mr. Lukic, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?
2 MR. LUKIC: Yes, I am, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Selak, you'll now be cross-examined by
4 Mr. Lukic. Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic and you'll find him to
5 your left.
6 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Good afternoon, Colonel Selak.
9 A. Good afternoon, sir.
10 Q. His Honour has already introduced me, so can we start now?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Today you say that information was being concealed when we speak
13 about these 80, 800 casualties in Kozarac. In your view, the duty was to
14 report that 800 persons had been killed.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And the report said that 80 persons had been killed?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. In terms of what had been reported --
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Actually, can we now have a document
20 in e-court now. 070 -- or, rather, 07128. The number assigned to it was
22 Q. This document says that these persons were killed in combat;
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. So it is not stated that they had been liquidated. So this is
1 the document that went to the superior command; right?
2 A. Yes, that's right. However this document -- actually, this is a
3 report. It is not accurate.
4 Q. We've already heard that.
5 A. This is false information being sent to the superior command
6 precisely because they were afraid of what the consequences would be.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Selak please answer the questions put by
8 Mr. Lukic. Mr. Lukic is interested in a matter which is different than
9 the matter; that is, about reporting and what information was received at
10 the higher levels. That's what Mr. Lukic is concerned. And you have
11 already explained extensively that what was reported was not in
12 accordance with the truth.
13 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
14 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Q. [Interpretation] Do you know what sort of information reached the
16 1st Krajina Corps? Do you know whether misinformation arrived from the
17 field? Were the reports correct? Do you have any information about
18 whether there were reports about who was killed by whom and when? Do you
19 have any -- did you have any such information?
20 A. Sir, at the briefing when Colonel Marcetic was there, he received
21 information from the commander of the 343rd Motorised Brigade from
22 Prijedor. Information about what had happened that day, how many people
23 were killed. The brigade command reported and Martic -- Marcetic
24 informed the commander of what had happened, and then later reports were
25 sent to the command of the Main Staff of the VRS.
1 Q. I will pause so that everything can be transcribed. It doesn't
2 mean that I'm not happy with your answer. Are you familiar with any
3 cases when no reports were compiled in the field?
4 A. Yes, there were such cases.
5 Q. When the reports were not correct?
6 A. Yes, there were such cases.
7 Q. At the time, May, June, July, at the beginning of the conflict,
8 were communications interrupted?
9 A. Yes. Communication lines were cut off but there were couriers,
10 and the units had to use such couriers. Similarly my unit, because that
11 was a wider area of responsibility. So couriers were used to communicate
12 information and to forward reports.
13 Q. Thank you. On page 49 today, you said that you were at this
14 collegium with General Talic, this meeting. In the document that you
15 provided us with today, P253, is the number assigned to it -- no, that's
16 a mistake. I'm sorry.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have P249.
18 Q. Do you remember this document that consists of two maps?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And two charts.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we see page number 2, please.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I have it on my screen.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Page 2, please. Could we zoom in and
24 see the top part of the page.
25 Q. You say that this was the situation after the 18th of May, 1992.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. This chart depicts the 1st Krajina Corps structure. But you're
3 not included there.
4 A. I wasn't a member of the 1st Krajina Corps. I was not included
6 Q. Could we have a look at page 4 now, please. Here, in the middle
7 of this chart we can see that you were subordinated to
8 Major-General Djukic; isn't that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. How is it that you were present at that collegium, at that
11 meeting of the 1st Krajina Corps?
12 A. I've explained this previously. As commander of the logistics
13 base, I was always available to the corps commander, and he would contact
14 me by phone and tell me when there were meetings that I could be present
15 in order for me to obtain information so that my organs could react more
16 expeditiously. This was to speed up things.
17 Q. Very well. So you received an invitation to attend.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. That wasn't a regular thing. You didn't have to attend unless
20 you were invited?
21 A. It's not that I didn't have to but there was no reason. If I was
22 invited, there was something important.
23 Q. I meant if they don't call you.
24 A. No, if they didn't invite me, no, it was not my duty to attend in
25 such cases.
1 Q. You were responsible for supplying the 1st Krajina Corps?
2 A. Not only the 1st Krajina Corps, but all the units in the area of
3 responsibility in the territory that was depicted here a little earlier
4 on. There was the Military Technical Academy, there was the rocket
5 brigade under the army's command, the communication centre, so the
6 logistics base supplied all the units that were present in that area.
7 The logistics base in Banja Luka.
8 Q. These diagrams, these charts, in fact, mention who is from Serbia
9 and who from Bosnia-Herzegovina. From among the people of the Serbian --
10 of Serbian ethnicity. In terms of percentages, how many people were
11 there Serbia in the VRS? Could you tell us?
12 A. In terms of percentages, I couldn't say. But, Your Honours, when
13 the VRS was established on the 18th of May, I was in Banja Luka. Not a
14 single officer or junior officer from Serbia, Montenegro, or -- didn't
15 leave their duties in the corps command, in the rocket brigade, apart
16 from those who were due to retire. I don't know about the percentages,
17 but not a single officer left apart from those who retired.
18 Q. Was that the situation in lower units?
19 A. When I'm talking about the corps, that also includes its
20 subordinate units.
21 Q. So your testimony today is that the entire command structure of
22 brigades and battalions remained the same?
23 A. Yes, Your Honours. Apart from the soldiers who were performing
24 their military service, who weren't from Bosnia and Herzegovina. They
25 could go to their homes, to Macedonia, to Montenegro, to Serbia, and so
1 on and so forth, but all the officers who remained on the payroll. In my
2 notebook, an entry was made when someone said that the Federal Republic
3 of Yugoslavia would continue paying salaries.
4 Q. Were there any people from Serbia in the ABiH?
5 A. I really don't know.
6 Q. People from Sandzak, Sefer Halilovic?
7 A. I believe that that was the case, but I do not have any
8 information. I don't have any such information.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Selak, could you please make a short pause
10 between question and answer, and Mr. Lukic will do the same so that the
11 interpreters can follow you.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. You have heard of Sefer Halilovic. That was my question.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. He was the head of the ABiH?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. He's from Serbia, Sandzak; isn't that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. The soldiers from the 1st Krajina Corps were from the territory
20 that was covered by the 1st Krajina Corps; is that correct?
21 A. The soldiers performing their military service were not only from
22 that territory but from wider areas.
23 Q. I'm talking about people who were members of the 1st Krajina
24 Corps, about the men who were members from 1992 onwards, ordinary
25 soldiers. Is it correct that 99 per cent of them were from the territory
1 of Bosnian Krajina?
2 A. Yes, Your Honours. There was an officially mobilisation carried
3 out in that area, and all those fit for military service, they'd already
4 been given war-time assignments. They had to respond to the mobilisation
5 and go to their units. That was the case in my logistics base.
6 Disciplinary measures, judicial measures were taken against those who
7 failed to respond to the call-up.
8 Q. Thank you. Is it correct that anyone who responded to the
9 mobilisation would be assigned to a unit and issued with a weapon and a
11 A. Yes. There was a training, but the soldier couldn't immediately
12 receive a weapon without training. First it was necessary to be trained
13 and then weapons would be issued. They would be given a uniform, yes,
14 but weapons only having completed the training.
15 Q. Members of the reserve force immediately received weapons and
16 uniforms because they had already received training.
17 A. Yes. But there were no more reserves after the mobilisation.
18 There were no more reservists apart from the officers and soldiers
19 performing their military service, but they would have been members of
20 those units. There was only an age difference.
21 Q. You would also agree with me that members of the Muslim and
22 Croatian ethnic groups did not largely respond to the mobilisation?
23 A. Yes. But there were also threats that were issued. I have a
24 document here, too, Your Honours, where it says that the Crisis Staff
25 requested that members of the Croatian and Muslim ethnicity be removed
1 from Serbian units because they were not trusted. I do have such a
3 Q. Just a minute. I do apologise. When you speak about the
4 mobilisation, are we talking about September 1991?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. At the time were any threats issued or did people not respond,
7 the Muslims and the Croats, because they didn't want to go to war in
9 A. There were such cases in my unit that had about two and a half
10 thousand men. I think there were several who did not respond. I don't
11 know why. Was it because it was a matter of logistics or not? But
12 politics was involved, Your Honours. And men did go to Croatia to fight
13 in the war and to border areas in the direction of Bosnia-Herzegovina, so
14 there were political problems with regard to this matter. But I can't
15 really go into details.
16 Q. On the 15th of January, 2003 in the Brdjanin case, you said, line
17 11 to line 14, that the Bosniaks did not respond to the mobilisation to
18 join war-time, or, rather, combat units that were supposed to go to
19 Croatia. Because of that, the Bosniaks were not trusted. Would you
20 stand by what you stated there?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Similarly, at page 12928 in the same case, you said all the
23 mobilised units were mobilised in accordance with the law. They received
24 weapons from war depots. That's how it was translated. Would you stand
25 by that testimony?
1 A. Your Honours, in accordance with instructions from the Assembly
2 of Yugoslavia from 1990 to 1991, Territorial Defence units had to be
3 disbanded and their weapons had to be returned to JNA depots, or, rather,
4 to logistics bases.
5 Q. We will deal with that later, but I'm asking you about the units
6 mobilised in 1991 and the units mobilised at the beginning of 1992. Were
7 they legally mobilised at the time in accordance with the law?
8 A. In my opinion, yes.
9 Q. And at the time were they issued with weapons in a lawful manner?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Thank you. Could you now tell us which military depots for
12 weapons and equipment remained in the territory of Republika Srpska and
13 which remained in the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina? Do you know
14 anything about that?
15 A. I can speak about the logistics base in Banja Luka, and
16 everything remained in the territory of Republika Srpska in one depot
17 there. The Sarajevo base, Sarajevo Logistics Base, had a depot in the
18 area of Han Pijesak. In some cases, equipment was left there. In
19 others, that wasn't the case. But in the logistics base in Banja Luka it
20 was handed over to Republika Srpska to the VRS.
21 Q. But you don't have information for the area covered by the ABiH?
22 A. No, I have no information. I wasn't a member of that formation.
23 Q. Thank you. Is it correct that the Muslims joined the police to a
24 larger extent, and this is how they obtained weapons?
25 A. No. I am not aware of that. I'm not aware of them joining the
1 police force. I don't think that's -- well, in fact, that information
2 wasn't made public. I know nothing about that. So I was a bit surprised
3 by this question. I never heard of anything of the sort.
4 Q. If you say you don't know, you don't know.
5 A. I don't know.
6 Q. In Prijedor municipality, the head of the Territorial Defence was
7 Mr. Mundjinen [phoen]. Did you know that? Did you co-operate with him?
8 A. I did not co-operate with him. I heard of him. I did not
9 co-operate with him. There was no need for him to co-operate with me or
10 vice versa. I never met up with him. Or at least I don't remember that
11 I -- I ever saw him. I heard of him, but that's all. The name does ring
12 a bell.
13 Q. Thank you very much. On page 12951 also in the Brdjanin case, on
14 the 15th of January, 2003, you testified about volunteer units and you
15 said they were connected to the respective parties and that they carried
16 out party tasks. Would you say the same today?
17 A. Yes. Voluntary units were paramilitary units which were set up
18 by the respective parties as well as the regional staffs. I know about
19 Bosnian Krajina but that applied to the entire Republic of
20 Bosnia-Herzegovina. That's how they were set up and they were armed by
21 the army. Just to illustrate that, sir, in 1992, in the month of
22 February - and I have that document which says that the Serbian
23 Democratic Party distributed 17.000 pieces of weaponry to the Serbian
24 people and the JNA distributed 56.000 pieces of infantry weapons to the
25 Serbian people. I have that document. I've not got it on me.
1 Q. What time are we referring to?
2 A. I'm talking about 1992. Perhaps January, February of that year.
3 I have that official document. It exists.
4 Q. We'll come to that document. You had a lengthy discussion about
5 that document with Mr. Ackerman, a document, and I'll come to that.
6 A. Can you show it to me?
7 Q. We'll come to that. Is it correct paramilitary formations were
8 also set up in the territory which is currently the Federation of
9 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and were people armed there? Which paramilitary
10 formations were set up by the SDA?
11 A. I know that they were organised also in that area, and those
12 units were called units for the defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina because the
13 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina was set up for the entire Republic of
14 Bosnia-Herzegovina and they clashed with the army -- Serbian army of the
15 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Departments were set up in
16 municipalities as well as companies and squads. Those formations were
17 being set up in order to defend the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina from
18 the Army of Republika Srpska.
19 Q. Those units were set up in 1991; right? And they were known as
20 the Patriotic League, the Green Berets, and so on and so forth. Would
21 you agree with me that they were not organised in order to fight the VRS
22 but the JNA?
23 A. No, Your Honours. On the 29th of February and the 1st of March,
24 1991, we had a referendum in Bosnia-Herzegovina. 64 per cent of the
25 population were in favour of the independent Republic of
1 Bosnia-Herzegovina. The European community recognised Bosnia-Herzegovina
2 as a state. After that --
3 Q. Mr. Selak --
4 A. Please.
5 Q. When it comes to legality, do you know, according to the
6 then-valid constitution of Bosnia-Herzegovina what percentage would have
7 made referendum legal? How much did you study the constitutional law at
8 the time?
9 A. I did not study it at all.
10 Q. We will not go that way. I'm not asking you that. Please look
11 at me and answer my questions, please.
12 JUDGE ORIE: First of all, take a pause between question and
14 Mr. Selak, you're not here to debate with Mr. Lukic. You're here
15 to answer his questions. If something very important might have been
16 missing, you'll have an opportunity or the Prosecution will ask you
17 further questions about that. Please focus your answers on what
18 Mr. Lukic asks you and not what you think he should have asked for. He
19 is putting the questions to you. You give the answers. Could you please
20 abide by that.
21 Mr. Lukic, please proceed.
22 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Q. [Interpretation] Are you familiar with the fact that units were
24 organised under the name of the Green Berets and the Patriotic League in
1 A. I'm not aware of the exact date. However, towards the end of
2 1991 I believe that they existed because they were being prepared for the
3 defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
4 Q. At the time, the only legitimate armed force in the territory of
5 Bosnia-Herzegovina was the JNA; right?
6 A. No, it's not correct.
7 Q. Who was legitimate then?
8 A. When Bosnia-Herzegovina was declared as an independent state, the
9 JNA had to withdrew from Bosnia and Herzegovina.
10 Q. Hold on. Did the JNA withdraw -- withdrew in 1991?
11 A. No, they didn't.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Let's get things calmed down.
13 In your first answer, Mr. Selak, you already did not what I asked
14 you to do. You were asked whether you're familiar with the fact that
15 units were organised under certain names. Apparently, I do understand
16 from your answer, that you were aware but you started adding what their
17 job was. You were not asked about that.
18 Then in one of the answers which followed, you said:
19 "When Bosnia-Herzegovina was declared as an independent state,
20 the JNA had to withdraw."
21 What we'd like to know is, if you refer to such a point in time,
22 that you give us that point in time.
23 Apart from that, Mr. Lukic, I invited Mr. Selak not to consider
24 your exchange as a conversation or a debate but as questions and answers,
25 and then preferably about facts. Legitimate forces, et cetera, and that
1 is known in this Tribunal, have raised eternal discussions on what was
2 legitimate or not. And, finally, that is a legal matter.
3 Please proceed.
4 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have not completed
6 my answer. Your Honours, the JNA did not withdraw from
7 Bosnia-Herzegovina. The only exception being the conscripts who were
8 serving their compulsory army service and who hailed from Serbia or
10 JUDGE ORIE: You were asked whether the JNA withdrew in 1991.
11 Your answer was no, they didn't. So you had answered that question. And
12 if Mr. Lukic wants to know any further details, then he'll ask for it.
13 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
14 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Q. [Interpretation] Do you know what the numerical strength of the
16 Patriotic League and the Green Berets was in 1991?
17 A. I don't know.
18 Q. Which political parties advocated and instructed the population
19 of Bosnia-Herzegovina not to respond to the JNA call-ups?
20 A. There were many parties. I can't give you their names. I can't
21 answer your question because I don't know.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask you, is there a dispute about the
23 positions of the political parties in relation to the JNA call-ups?
24 MR. GROOME: No dispute Your Honour. And the Prosecution is
25 always welcome to consider any facts that the Defence might propose that
1 we would agree to.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 MR. LUKIC: I can challenge credibility of the witness by this,
4 because on the transcript, page 13214, from 2nd January 2003, he
5 explicitly stated --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, then you should at least -- if you want
7 the Chamber to understand this --
8 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: -- then I think you should provide the Chamber with
10 the relevant information. 2003, transcript page. That's in another
11 case. You refer to another -- [Overlapping speakers]
12 MR. LUKIC: Brdjanin case.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's fine. Is that in evidence at this
14 moment for us if you ...
15 MR. LUKIC: I will ask the witness.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Yes.
17 Please proceed. Then at this moment --
18 Yes, you may proceed.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. You answered a question by saying Alija Izetbegovic suggested
21 that Bosniaks should not respond to such call-ups. And you said that you
22 were familiar with that statement. Can you remember that?
23 A. No, Your Honours. I can't remember the words. It was only -- it
24 was some nine or ten years ago. Politics are politics. I'm sure that
25 Alija Izetbegovic did advocate that political options and solutions, but
1 I can't remember the data -- the details. I'm getting on, you know, so I
2 can't answer in the affirmative. I believe that something like that was
3 done but -- and I signed that, but I can't remember.
4 Q. You didn't sign anything. You said it under oath.
5 JUDGE ORIE: One second. Do you know or do you not know whether
6 Mr. Izetbegovic and his political party were in favour of following the
7 call-ups or that they advised persons not to respond to such call-ups?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not sure, Your Honours. Bosnia
9 and Herzegovina had already been divided. There were areas with the
10 executive power of the government of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
11 I know that there were call-ups for that area. But he didn't have any
12 influence on the mobilisation in the territory of the VRS. He could not
13 influence that region.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Are we talking about 1991?
15 MR. LUKIC: 1991, 1992. There is --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. 1991 there is --
17 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers]
18 THE WITNESS: 1992.
19 JUDGE ORIE: You are talking about 1992. Mr. Lukic has not
20 limited his questions, and even reference was made earlier to 1991, I
21 think. What was the position, to your knowledge --
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 1992.
23 JUDGE ORIE: What was the position of Mr. Izetbegovic and his
24 party, whether you should respond positively to call-ups for the JNA
25 even before the Republika Srpska did exist?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm not sure. I did
2 not receive any official information from politicians. I was
3 subordinated to the command of the JNA. We did not receive that kind of
4 information or at least not us in Banja Luka. I did not listen to
5 Radio Sarajevo which broadcast such information. I'm sure that such
6 things existed, that there was a lot of propaganda going on, but I never
7 heard any such propaganda messages, so I cannot answer in the
9 JUDGE ORIE: Now you say you did not receive any official
10 information. As a matter of fact, you explained that you had no
11 information at all. Nevertheless, your answer to the question in 2003,
12 if rightly quoted by Mr. Lukic, suggests that you knew the position of
13 Mr. Izetbegovic by whatever sources.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm familiar with Izetbegovic's
15 position. He wanted a unified Bosnia-Herzegovina and that is a fact,
16 Your Honours. I was aware of that and I was in favour of that myself.
17 He wanted that republic to be a -- set up of all the three constituent
18 peoples, the Serbs, the Croats, and the Muslims, i.e., the Bosniaks, and
19 he advocated that option all the time, until the day he died.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Your answer is not focussing on the call-ups as you
21 were asked to do.
22 Mr. Lukic, please proceed.
23 MR. LUKIC: Is this a good time?
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it is a good time for a break as well. We take
25 a break and resume at a quarter to 2.00.
1 But, first, could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.
2 [The witness stands down]
3 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at a quarter to 2.00.
4 --- Recess taken at 1.27 p.m.
5 --- On resuming at 1.46 p.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Can the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
7 [The witness takes the stand]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Selak, listen carefully to the questions that
9 Mr. Lukic will put to you and answer them as briefly as possible.
10 Mr. Lukic.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Q. Mr. Selak, we have kept raising new issues. You mentioned
13 Mr. Izetbegovic and you said that he was in favour of a united
14 Bosnia-Herzegovina and that he fought for that concept until the very end
15 of his life. Is it also true that he also fought for a
16 Bosnia-Herzegovina outside of Yugoslavia and without the JNA?
17 A. I know that he participated in the negotiations when Yugoslavia
18 was breaking apart, unfortunately. I was a member of that Yugoslav
19 People's Army as a Yugoslav. However, politics are politics. I didn't
20 want to get involved, I don't know any details, and I don't want to
21 answer your question by saying something that I'm not positive about and
22 I don't have accurate information about.
23 Q. Thank you. On the 4th of April, 1992, Alija Izetbegovic
24 proclaimed a state of war in Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that correct?
25 A. I'm not sure of the date, but I know that a state of war was
1 indeed proclaimed, but I don't know when.
2 Q. Who was that aimed against, in your view?
3 A. In my view, against all those who were against Bosnia-Herzegovina
4 as a state of all of its citizens.
5 Q. So that means against 99 per cent of the Serbs?
6 A. The Serbian Democratic Party, sir, officially proclaimed
7 Republika Srpska. I have documents in which it says that they wanted to
8 be united with the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. Alija Izetbegovic was
9 against that.
10 Q. Can we then conclude that Alija Izetbegovic proclaimed a state of
11 war and thus proclaimed that he would start waging a war against the
12 Serbian people in Yugoslavia?
13 A. That was also done by Mr. Karadzic. I have that document as
14 well. He also proclaimed a state of war in his turn.
15 Q. Is it true that a state of war in Republika Srpska was proclaimed
16 only in the second half of 1995?
17 A. I am not aware of the date, but I know that it was, indeed,
18 proclaimed. I'm not sure of the date.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, I think it would be in the interest of
20 the work of this Chamber to -- that you focus primarily on matters of
21 factual knowledge of this witness. And the last series of questions have
22 demonstrated, to some extent I would say, and it might be that you want
23 to establish that, that this witness has his own firm political opinions
24 on certain matters. And if that's what you want to emphasise, then that
25 message has been received.
1 And Judge Moloto may want to put a question or two. Give any
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, you are at page 83, line 6, as saying
4 in the second half of 1995. Did you want to say 1995?
5 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour, for SDS, for Republika Srpska.
6 Time of war was declared only in 1995, second part, and only on a part of
7 the territory.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Lukic. And again, focus on
10 factual knowledge --
11 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: -- rather than being at risk to enter into a debate.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Do you have your statement before you in B/C/S?
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness be provided with a
16 statement. I can't provide him with mine because I've underlined things
17 in it. Maybe the Prosecutor can provide his statement to the witness.
18 MR. GROOME: I brought a clean copy to court, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
20 Could it be provided to the witness.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. You do recognise your statement, don't you?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Let's advance to paragraph 44, please.
25 You say at the beginning:
1 "The other officers told me that Talic usually attended the
2 meetings of the regional Crisis Staff."
3 My question is this: You yourself never attended any of those
4 meetings with General Talic; right?
5 A. No. I wasn't. But his officers stated --
6 Q. Who was it who told you that?
7 A. My colleagues. I can't tell you exactly who -- please. The
8 corps command was the corps command, the bases [as interpreted] had its
9 office one floor above him. That was our regular communication.
10 Q. Can you give us the name and the family name of the person who
11 told you or not?
12 A. I can't. There were several of them.
13 Q. Thank you. We'll move on.
14 A. Your Honours, when I asked for General Talic, several times I was
15 told that he was at a meeting of the Crisis Staff. This was from the
16 corps command, information from the corps command, so I don't know who
17 told me about that. Ten years have passed since then. Over ten years.
18 JUDGE ORIE: You don't have to justify that you don't know
19 anymore. Just listen carefully to the questions, answer them, tell us
20 what you know, tell us what you do not know anymore.
21 And, Mr. Lukic, calmness would certainly assist in obtaining the
22 best evidence.
23 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Q. [Interpretation] At the time, was there a republican Crisis
1 A. No. Not as far as I know.
2 Q. Very well.
3 A. Only in the regions.
4 Q. In paragraph 45, it's at the beginning of the paragraph, it says:
5 "I know that from the end of 1991 training was provided for
6 paramilitary formations in Manjaca. Paramilitary formations can be
7 considered to be all men who are armed but are not part of the army or
8 the MUP."
9 At the time in 1991, the end of 1991, were there still
10 Territorial Defence units in existence?
11 A. The Territorial Defence units were disbanded in 1991, as early of
12 1991, throughout the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina. The weapons were
13 supposed to be returned to the warehouses, but this was not all
15 Q. Could you tell us when these Territorial Defence units were
16 disbanded, approximately, in 1991?
17 A. It was at the beginning of 1991.
18 Q. Thank you. The army never issued orders of any kind to the
19 paramilitary units. That's what you stated in the Tadic case. Do you
20 stand by that today?
21 A. It didn't issue them with any orders, but later in the documents
22 even the Chief of the Main Staff said that volunteer units should be
23 established as soon as possible and they should be armed and even that
24 JNA officers should become part of such units. I have such a document.
25 Q. Who is the chief and of which Main Staff?
1 A. Of the JNA, the General Staff.
2 Q. In Belgrade?
3 A. Yes, in Belgrade.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic, if you want to consult, do it at a low
5 voice and not from a distance with a loud voice.
6 Mr. Lukic, please proceed.
7 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Q. [Interpretation] Let's now have a look at paragraph 48 where you
9 speak about to whom you were subordinated, about the structure you were a
10 part of.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. You say:
13 "As a commander of the logistics base, I wasn't subordinated to
14 General Uzelac but to the command of the 1st Army in Belgrade."
15 Were you subordinated to the 1st Army, to the 5th Army, to the
16 2nd Army, or to the SSNO?
17 A. No. I was subordinated to the 1st Army District in Belgrade.
18 And, later, when the 2nd Military District was established in Sarajevo, I
19 was subordinated to that district. Never to the 5th. The bases were
20 under the direct command of the army, not of the corps.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just a minute, please.
22 [Defence counsel confer]
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. We'll move on, as I'm not really an expert when it comes to your
1 channels of commanding and reporting. Isn't it true that your area, the
2 5th Corps and that area, was under the 5th Military District?
3 A. No, that was never the case.
4 Q. The 5th Corps, the 5th Banja Luka Corps wasn't part of the
5 5th Army?
6 A. No, it was part of the 7th Army District and later of the 2nd
7 one. It was never part of the 5th Military District. That district was
8 in Zagreb, so it was never under its command.
9 Q. Very well. So were you subordinated to the 1st Military District
10 or the Federal Secretariat for National Defence?
11 A. The bases were all under the command of the Military Districts.
12 For one period of time I was under the command of the 1st Military
13 Command, and then under the 2nd Military Command when it was established
14 in Sarajevo under the command of General --
15 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the name the
16 witness mentioned.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Very well. We will move onto paragraph 53 now. You say:
19 "In the middle of July 1992 Talic requested a meeting with me in
20 order to inform me that I was not allowed to leave Banja Luka."
21 We can't ask General Talic about this, but I would like you to
22 tell me who was present at that conversation?
23 A. I think it was Colonel Ninkovic. I think it was
24 Colonel Ninkovic. Don't hold me to that, though. But I think that was
25 the case. He is in Banja Luka now. You can contact him.
1 Q. Did you leave Banja Luka in spite of this?
2 A. Yes. In 1995 when my wife fell ill, I asked General Mladic to
3 allow me to leave and to go to Belgrade to the Military Medical Academy
4 in an ambulance.
5 Q. Was this made possible for you?
6 A. I phoned General Djukic, he put me through to General Mladic, and
7 he said that he ordered Colonel Marjanovic to take me to Belgrade.
8 Colonel Marjanovic didn't want to take me there, so I paid two Serbs from
9 Banja Luka 2.800 German marks to take me to Belgrade.
10 Q. You stayed there for 13 days; is that correct?
11 A. Yes, for about 12 or 13 days, I'm not sure.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Could -- Mr. Lukic, could you take care that
13 consultations in the back are not disturbing the continuation of the
14 examination of the witness.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Where did you go after that 13-day period, Mr. Selak?
17 A. I went to see my son in Wiesbaden, in Germany. He is a doctor
18 and he operated on his mother there. Unfortunately, she later died.
19 Q. Let's now have a look at paragraph 55. In this paragraph, you
21 "In the middle of July 1992, I was elected to be the commander of
22 the resistance staff in Banja Luka."
23 You were referring to resistance to the Republic of Serbia; is
24 that correct?
25 A. The resistance staff in Banja Luka to resist the organs in power
1 and those who maltreated Muslims and Croats, because they were fleeing
2 Banja Luka en masse. And it's true that we established this body not as
3 against Republika Srpska as such but against the events happening in
4 Banja Luka.
5 Q. Who were the people with you in that group?
6 A. I can't answer that question for the sake of their safety.
7 Your Honours, please allow me not to mention the names of these
8 people. It is for their own safety.
9 Q. Is there anyone who does not live --
10 JUDGE ORIE: For -- first of all, I think there's no need to
11 stand, for Mr. Mladic.
12 Now, you'd like not to mention those names, not in public, at
13 least. Would you mind to mention the names in private session? Which
14 means that those persons would -- that -- the names you are telling us
15 are not broadcasted.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, allow me to say that
17 this resistance movement - I have to explain this - didn't amount to
18 resistance of any kind because we assessed the situation and the corps
19 had 100.000 people and we had between 500 and 1.000 men who were not
20 armed, so we did not -- and I can't mention any names because of their
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Selak, my question was whether you would be
23 willing to give the names in private session. Are you willing to do so?
24 That means that those participating in these proceedings --
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]
1 JUDGE ORIE: Then I'll have to consult with my -- Mr. Groome, you
2 would like to make any submission?
3 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I believe before the Chamber
4 deliberates on this, I think it might be helped by knowing what is the
5 relevance of this. I have a hard time understanding what the relevance
6 is at this stage. Perhaps there is idea of relevance, but I would
7 appreciate knowing what it is.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Then perhaps before we further consider the matter,
9 Mr. Lukic, could you explain what the relevance is to know those -- these
11 MR. LUKIC: It is self-explanatory, Your Honour. The whole
12 statement is full of explanations how there was mistrust on the Serbian
13 side toward this gentleman and Muslims in general and now we can get a
14 base for that, that mistrust.
15 JUDGE ORIE: By receiving those names?
16 MR. LUKIC: We would be able to further investigate what was it,
17 when it was established.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome.
19 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I'm not sure the legal requirement of a
20 question being relevant is that it would enable further investigations.
21 I believe that would be a matter for Defence investigators to do and to
22 make some inquiry in the Banja Luka area. I think what needs to be
23 demonstrated at this point is why is it relevant to the determination
24 that this Chamber has to make when adjudicating this indictment.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE ORIE: Whether the witness will have to answer that
2 question is something we'll --
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE ORIE: Whether the Chamber will insist on the witness
5 answering the question, we'll discuss that and let you know, if possible,
6 this afternoon. At least not any later than tomorrow morning. We would
7 like to pay proper attention to it.
8 I'm looking at the clock, Mr. Lukic. I have one or two small
9 procedural items which I would like to briefly deal with. Therefore, I
10 suggest that we adjourn for the day after I have dealt with those and
11 that the witness is already excused at this time.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers].
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Selak -- yes, Mr. Groome. Any?
14 MR. GROOME: It has to do with the scheduling for the witness,
15 Your Honour. Tomorrow there is a videolink scheduled and Mr. Lukic
16 informs that he thinks that he will take the entire day for the
17 cross-examination. Can I ask that Mr. Selak be allowed to remain on
18 standby in his hotel room? I think, if needed, we can get him here in
19 about 20 minutes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Selak, we'll resume your examination
21 either tomorrow, but not right away at 9.30 in the morning, or perhaps
22 even the day after tomorrow. Therefore, as Mr. Groome asked, you do not
23 have to come to the Tribunal in the morning but you should remain standby
24 so as to be able to start immediately once we have dealt with another
25 witness who will give his testimony through videolink. Is that clear?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.
2 JUDGE ORIE: And then I also would like to instruct you that you
3 should not speak or communicate in any other way with whomever about your
4 testimony, whether that is testimony you've given today or testimony
5 still to be given.
6 If you have understood this message, then you may now follow the
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I have. Thank you.
9 [The witness stands down]
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE ORIE: Two brief matters.
12 First, and I'm primarily addressing the Defence, on the 22nd and
13 the 23rd of August, the Defence objected to the admission of MFIs P80 and
14 P89, which had been tendered by the Prosecution as associated exhibits
15 through 92 ter Witness van Lynden. The Defence submitted in court that
16 it would make written submissions in relation to these MFIs. That can be
17 found on transcript pages 1472 to 1473 and 1477 to 1479. On the 21st of
18 September, the Defence informed the Chamber through an informal
19 communication that it no longer intended to submit a filing in relation
20 to the aforementioned MFIs.
21 Mr. Lukic, the Chamber understands the Defence objections to MFIs
22 P80 and P89 to be withdrawn.
23 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And, therefore, P80 and P89 are admitted into
1 One last matter, I'm addressing you, Mr. Groome. The Chamber
2 suggests to you that you already number the paragraphs of witness
3 statements when you attach them to your 92 ter motions, and not only at a
4 later stage because we might work on hard copies of it, make our notes on
5 it, and then have to number them at a later stage ourselves. I think it
6 would be best to just briefly mention that in half a sentence in a 92 ter
7 motion so that we always know whether the numbering of the paragraphs has
8 been added at that moment in time or whether the paragraphs were already
9 numbered at an earlier stage.
10 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. We'll do that from this point
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.
13 We adjourn for the day, and we will resume tomorrow, Wednesday,
14 the 26th of September, in this same courtroom, I.
15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.16 p.m.,
16 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 26th day of
17 September, 2012, at 9.30 a.m.