1 Friday, 28 September 2012
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.31 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
8 This is the case IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
10 The Chamber was informed that both parties have preliminaries. I
11 think the Defence wanted to move into private session for the
13 Mr. Lukic, we move into private session.
14 [Private session]
21 [Open session]
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session. Thank
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
25 Mr. Groome.
1 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, first I was going to tender the letter
2 of the witness's son which Mr. Lukic spent quite a bit of time with
3 yesterday. It's 65 ter 18349. But when I discussed this with Mr. Lukic,
4 he expressed that it was his intention to tender it, so if he does that
5 now I'll have no objection.
6 MR. LUKIC: No objections. Of course, we wanted to tender it.
7 JUDGE ORIE: You want to tender it. Let's then deal with that
8 first of all.
9 65 ter 18349 would receive what number, Mr. Registrar.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D53, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: D53 is admitted into evidence.
12 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the next matter is the Prosecution at
13 this time would tender 65 ter 28432. This is the chart containing
14 Mr. Selak's observations of eight documents. And Your Honours, the 65
15 ter numbers those documents is contained on the chart itself.
16 Your Honour, this past Tuesday, at transcript page 2963, the
17 Chamber expressed concern over this chart and what the Chamber termed as
18 creativity of the Prosecution which might lead to a situation that the
19 Chamber wanted to avoid. Although the Chamber was not explicit about its
20 concerns, I understood the Chamber to be referring to its previously
21 expressed concern of large numbers of unnecessary or marginally relevant
22 documents. I would like to address the Chamber's concern in the context
23 of this exhibit.
24 There were 34 documents the Prosecution considered using with
25 this witness. An examination of the previous testimonies of Mr. Selak
1 reveals additional exhibits which would meet the legal test of relevance.
2 The Prosecution selected eight of the most directly relevant ones for
3 admission through a proposal that the Defence accepted as a fair way to
4 deal with the exhibits and I think was clearly a more efficient way to
5 adduce the evidence of military documents which largely speak for
7 Document 1 is a JNA 5th Corps report dated the 14th of May, 1992,
8 a week of importance in this trial. The document sets forth the state of
9 the command and control structures in what would soon become the
10 1st Krajina Corps.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome, if would you allow me one second.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome, the Chamber mainly expressed some
14 concerns in a more general way about a possible development of the
15 procedure. The Chamber is not seeking at this moment a justification for
16 each of these documents. Unless the Defence would object to them, of
17 course, then we'd like to hear further explanation.
18 But at this moment the Chamber is - and you have understood that
19 well - is concerned that -- and we didn't say that you had flooded the
20 Chamber. I think even at the time when it happened we did not know even
21 how many documents would be on the chart. I'm not quite certain about
22 the time -- moment in time. But at this moment, also knowing now the
23 number involved, we are not assisted by a full explanation at this
24 moment. If it comes in the near future to similar situations, it might
25 be that we would like to receive further justification.
1 MR. GROOME: If now is not a convenient moment for the
2 Prosecution to make these submissions, I accept that. I would make a
3 request to be able to address the concerns of the Chamber. It is a
4 matter of some importance to the Prosecution and in -- so at a time when
5 the Chamber is prepared to hear these submissions, I would ask that we do
6 it, and I recognise there is a witness here waiting to be called.
7 But if it doesn't assist the Chamber at this time, I will not
8 insist upon making my submission at this moment.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE ORIE: The submissions you made until now, for this
11 instance, Mr. Groome, satisfies the Chamber. And if you want to address
12 the matter in a more general way in the near future, you will have an
13 opportunity to do so.
14 MR. GROOME: Or if at any time the Chamber has this concern, I'm
15 prepared to answer it at any time.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: That's then --
19 MR. GROOME: So Your Honour, that just leaves us with the matter
20 of the tendering of that chart and the underlying exhibits.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes, which was announced to be done at the end
22 of the examination of the witness.
23 Mr. Lukic.
24 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
25 Our understanding of this chart is only to give the opportunity
1 to the witness to confirm authenticity or not and it's not, in our
2 understanding, something that should lead to -- to tender these
4 JUDGE ORIE: I think that was clear on from the beginning.
5 I think that we said that we would decide on the admission of the
6 chart and the documents at the end of the testimony.
7 I'll check that in the transcript, but I would be surprised if I
8 said anything else. And apart from that, the witness, of course, gave in
9 the chart his comments as well. I mean, what's the use of hearing the
10 comments of the witness if the underlying document is not accessible, is
11 not in evidence?
12 MR. LUKIC: In our -- our position is that he would then be shown
13 the documents and tell us about the documents.
14 JUDGE ORIE: He has reviewed the documents and the instructions
15 in the chart clearly says what he's -- what he is expected to do. That's
16 at the top, do this, do that, do that, do that, and then write down this
17 or write down that.
18 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, if you see the chart, document number 1,
19 I'm not going to take much of your time, it says: I have not seen this
20 document. I'm unsure of its authenticity.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's clear. And that's why the box
22 authentic or non-authentic is not ticked, as a matter of fact, whereas it
23 is for others. But the witness here says, I cannot say anything about
24 the authenticity of this document. He didn't tick the box and he
25 explained why.
1 MR. LUKIC: Would that document be tendered then?
2 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that is tendered by Mr. Groome, and
3 whether we will admit it or not depends on our decision and what --
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
5 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: If you look at that box, you would realise that
7 the witness also did not initial it.
8 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes.
10 JUDGE ORIE: That's what I meant by --
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: But the others that he --
12 MR. LUKIC: Others have initials.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Others are initialed.
14 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's right.
16 MR. LUKIC: Mm-hm.
17 JUDGE ORIE: That means that this witness in relation to this
18 document cannot tell us anything about the authenticity. And if you want
19 to challenge the admission on the basis of authenticity, of course, you
20 can do so. And the Chamber would then have to rely on your submissions,
21 Prosecution submissions, and any other indications of authenticity,
22 because the witness cannot help us.
23 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 Then, first, the chart, in the understanding now, Mr. Lukic, and
1 I'll check whether I said admission -- about admission. Any objections
2 against the chart?
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 MR. LUKIC: No objections against the chart.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome, if I could seek your assistance because
6 I don't have the chart here.
7 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I have a spare -- I have two spare
8 copies so I can either --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if you take them --
10 MR. GROOME: I could spare one or I can go one by one.
11 JUDGE ORIE: If you take them one by one, if you mention the
12 number we'll hear from -- and briefly say what it is, and then we'll hear
13 from Mr. Lukic whether there are any objections.
14 The first one.
15 MR. GROOME: Is 65 ter 16015. It's an order of the 5th Corps
16 issued on the 14th May, 1992.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic. If you want to say -- if you're not
18 prepared, then we'll leave it for later this morning so that can you make
19 up your mind, because apparently you were not expecting the underlying
20 documents to be tendered.
21 MR. LUKIC: Yeah, I would kindly ask Your Honours to give me some
22 time and prepare.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Then, at this moment, we'll not deal with the
24 underlying exhibits and only deal with the chart itself where there were
25 no objections against admission.
1 Mr. Registrar, the chart would receive number?
2 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P259, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: P259 is admitted into evidence. And we'll deal with
4 the underlying documents at a later stage.
5 MR. GROOME: Thank you.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Any other preliminary matters.
7 MR. GROOME: No, Your Honour. The Prosecution is prepared to
8 call the next witness.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But the Chamber has another matter which it
10 would like to raise.
11 Which is the following. And, Mr. Lukic, please listen carefully,
12 and, Mr. Mladic, also listen very carefully to what I'm going to say.
13 The Chamber has now, at five occasions - that means in relation
14 to five witnesses - received complaints about the behaviour of
15 Mr. Mladic. Most recently about his behaviour of yesterday where we
16 identified three instances, one of them including an observation made by
17 Mr. Mladic that the witness lied. In relation to five witnesses,
18 verbally or otherwise commenting, reacting to testimony.
19 This has led the Chamber to establish a new regime. The accused
20 will not be allowed any further to consult with counsel in court. The
21 accused may pass a little note, if needed, but silently to counsel.
22 Consultations can take place during breaks. The accused is not allowed
23 to speak in court. Any violation will result in the removal of the
24 accused from court.
25 This new regime has been established because, on the one hand,
1 the Chamber cannot understand the words the accused speaks, audible for
2 others; and, second, because the accused has shown that he repeatedly
3 interfered in an unacceptable way with the witnesses, which the Chamber
4 does not allow.
5 Mr. Lukic, is this new regime clear to you?
6 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
8 MR. LUKIC: Although I have to stress one thing. Mr. Mladic
9 writes very slowly and sometimes when we get its note it's too late or we
10 have to readdress the same issue.
11 JUDGE ORIE: That's all the consequence of what happened. I
12 referred to five witnesses where we received such claims. Some of them,
13 of course, we have dealt with already in the past. It's a pity. Then
14 you will be able only a few minutes after that, or after the next break,
15 to respond to that. That is -- the Chamber would not have spontaneously
16 would have imposed this new regime. It is because of our experience with
17 the behaviour of the accused in court that we felt that we could not do
18 otherwise in order to protect the witnesses.
19 Mr. Groome, is the Prosecution ready to call its -- yes.
20 MR. TRALDI: Yes, Your Honour. The Prosecution calls
21 Sulejman Crncalo.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Traldi. We'll wait until the witness
23 arrives in court. No protective measures.
24 MR. TRALDI: That's correct, Your Honour. And while the witness
25 is being called into the courtroom, Your Honour, I will reiterate from
1 our filing that Mr. Crncalo's evidence does overlap with certain
2 adjudicated facts. We have reviewed Mr. Crncalo's 92 ter material and
3 made redactions on the basis of facts 1679 and 1683. We have also
4 redacted paragraphs of Mr. Crncalo's statement which we deemed not
5 directly relevant to the adjudication of this indictment.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, the redactions do not meet any
8 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, Mr. Ivetic will cross this witness.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Ivetic, if there is anything in those
10 redacted paragraphs, of course, this would not prevent you from
11 addressing any matter which is found in those paragraphs. Although the
12 Chamber is not aware of that content at this moment.
13 MR. IVETIC: I understand that, and I believe that the
14 Prosecution has the right to prepare their statements how they want. If
15 there's material I will address it.
16 No objection.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.
18 [The witness entered court]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Crncalo.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Crncalo, before you give evidence, the Rules
22 require that you make a solemn declaration. The text is now handed out
23 to you. May I invite you to make that declaration.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will.
25 I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,
1 and nothing but the truth.
2 WITNESS: SULEJMAN CRNCALO
3 [Witness answered through interpreter]
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated, Mr. Crncalo.
5 Mr. Crncalo, you'll first be examined by Mr. Traldi. Mr. Traldi
6 is counsel for the Prosecution, and you'll find him to your right.
7 Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.
8 Examination by Mr. Traldi:
9 MR. TRALDI:
10 Q. Good morning, sir. How are you feeling this morning?
11 A. Well, okay.
12 Q. And if at any time you aren't, please don't hesitate to ask the
13 Chamber and ask us to take a break.
14 A. Thank you.
15 Q. And, sir, then could I ask you to please state your full name for
16 the record.
17 A. My name is Sulejman Crncalo.
18 Q. And what is your ethnicity, sir?
19 A. My ethnicity is Bosniak, Muslim.
20 Q. Mr. Crncalo, do you remember providing a statement to the ICTY on
21 1 November 2009?
22 A. I do.
23 MR. TRALDI: I'd ask the Court Officer to please display 65 ter
24 28427 on our screens.
25 Q. And, Mr. Crncalo, now that the document is on the screen before
1 us, can I ask that we go to the last page of the document?
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: I note they're both in English.
3 MR. TRALDI: I have a B/C/S hard copy with me, Your Honour. And
4 I'd note that now the left side of the screen reflects the B/C/S version.
5 I apologise. It's the next-to-last page that I'm looking for?
6 JUDGE ORIE: In the English, I take it.
7 MR. TRALDI: Yes, Your Honour.
8 Q. And, sir, if you look on the right side of your screen in the
9 bottom corner, I'd ask if you recognise the signature that you see there.
10 A. I do, it's my signature.
11 Q. And have you had an opportunity to read and review this statement
12 in preparation for your appearance here today?
13 A. Yes, I have.
14 MR. TRALDI: And I'd ask the Court Officer to please display 65
15 ter 28436 on our screens. It is a chart of clarifications to the
16 statement which was disclosed to the Defence this week.
17 Q. Sir, have you had an opportunity to review this document in
18 preparation for your testimony?
19 A. I have.
20 Q. And does it accurately set out clarifications to your statement
21 which you made during the course of preparation for your testimony?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. If I were today to ask you questions about the material in your
24 statement, would you provide the same information, in substance, subject
25 to the clarifications you have provided in this document?
1 A. I would give the same statement, the same clarifications.
2 Q. And now that you have taken the solemn declaration, do you
3 affirm, Mr. Crncalo, that you provided the information in both these
4 documents truthfully?
5 A. I provided truthful information. I have no other information.
6 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, the Prosecution tenders 65 ter 28427
7 and 28436 into evidence pursuant to Rule 92 ter, as public exhibits.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic.
9 MR. IVETIC: No objection.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
11 Mr. Traldi, has the Chamber been provided with the
12 clarifications? Previous -- prior to coming into court today.
13 MR. TRALDI: I believe they're in e-court, Your Honour, but I'm
14 afraid we haven't provided you a hard copy. I apologise.
15 JUDGE ORIE: This is a 92 ter witness. That means that the
16 Chamber should, prior to coming to court, be informed about any changes
17 in relation to the 92 ter statement the Chamber has looked at before and
18 has considered before coming to court. Therefore, I would like to
19 instruct the Prosecution that if any such clarifications, again not about
20 the viva voce witness, then you can present it viva voce in court. But
21 if it relates to any 92 ter statement, the Chamber should be provided
22 with such a clarification, even if not filed then at least brought to our
23 attention in other ways.
24 Having said this, Mr. Registrar, the numbers for these two
25 documents would be?
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 28427 shall
2 assigned Exhibit P260. And 65 ter document number 28436 shall be
3 assigned Exhibit P261. Thank you.
4 JUDGE ORIE: P260 and P261 are admitted into evidence.
5 And just for your understanding, Mr. Traldi, do you expect the
6 Chamber to go without knowing about 65 ter numbers through the whole of
7 the e-court in the morning to find out whether there's anything new?
8 That would be a lack of understanding of what the Chamber is reasonably
9 expected to do. Especially since we have no 65 -- we shouldn't do it
10 anyhow, but certainly we could not possibly do it without even having 65
11 ter numbers. Please proceed.
12 Mr. Crncalo, this had nothing to do with you, but Mr. Traldi will
13 now start his further examination.
14 MR. TRALDI: Yes, Your Honour, and the clarification chart was
15 identified on the exhibit list we provided to the Chamber and the
16 Defence, but in future we'll provide you with a hard copy as well. And
17 that e-mail was sent on 25 September at 5.24 p.m., for your records.
18 At this time, Your Honour, I would also tender the associated
19 exhibits mentioned in our 92 ter filing for this witness. That's
20 65 ter 03665, 03736, 11113, 11114, 11115, and 11116. As well as the
21 table of concordance for this witness labelled with 65 ter 28363.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic.
23 MR. IVETIC: No objections to these, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
25 Mr. Registrar, could you assign numbers to them one by one.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter number 03665 shall be
2 assigned Exhibit P262.
3 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
4 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter number 03736 shall be assigned
5 Exhibit P263.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
7 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter number 11113 shall be assigned
8 Exhibit P264.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
10 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter number 11114 shall be assigned
11 Exhibit P265.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
13 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter number 11115 shall be assigned
14 Exhibit P266.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
16 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter number 11116 shall be assigned
17 Exhibit P267.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
19 THE REGISTRAR: And 65 ter number 28363 be assigned Exhibit P268.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
21 Mr. Traldi, I'm still looking at ... could you provide us with a
22 copy where you said it was mentioned on the list of exhibits, because we
23 have the annex A to the motion at the time, and I have another list in my
24 hands where I have difficulties to find the clarification.
25 MR. TRALDI: Yes, Your Honour, we'll print out the e-mail and the
1 list at the break, if that's convenient.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's convenient. And if I made a mistake,
3 then, of course, I apologise for that.
4 Let's proceed.
5 MR. TRALDI: Thank you, Your Honour. Now that the requirements
6 of Rule 92 ter have been satisfied, I will briefly summarise
7 Mr. Crncalo's written evidence for the record.
8 Mr. Crncalo is a Bosnian Muslim from Pale. He was part of a
9 delegation which met with a member of the Bosnian Serb Presidency named
10 Nikola Koljevic in the spring of 1992. Koljevic told the delegation that
11 the Serbs did not want Muslims living in Pale.
12 In June 1992, Radovan Karadzic gave a speech in front of the
13 Dom Kulture in Pale. Mr. Crncalo heard Karadzic say that the best way to
14 defend Serb houses was to attack Muslim houses. Soon afterwards,
15 Mr. Crncalo and other Muslims were forcibly removed from Pale in convoys
16 organised by the Serb authorities. Several Muslims who refused to leave
17 the area were killed, and the three mosques in Pale were destroyed, as
18 charged in Schedule D10 of the indictment.
19 Mr. Crncalo and his family fled to besieged Sarajevo where they
20 remained for the remainder of the war. There he lived in constant fear
21 that he and his family would be killed. When Mr. Crncalo left home, he
22 was never sure that he would return alive or that those he had left
23 behind would be alive when he returned. On several occasions, he saw
24 civilians killed by snipers.
25 On 28 August 1995, Mr. Crncalo's wife went to the Markale
1 market-place to shop for powdered milk. She didn't come home, so
2 Mr. Crncalo went to search for her. On his way, he heard about the
3 shelling of the market-place charged in Schedule G.18 of the indictment.
4 When he got to Markale, his wife was not there. He looked at the
5 hospital but didn't find his wife there either. He then went to the
6 morgue, where he found his wife's body.
7 Q. Mr. Crncalo, now that we've reviewed your written evidence, I'm
8 going to ask several questions to clarify or expand upon that evidence.
9 A. Very well.
10 Q. Mr. Crncalo, you describe in your statement a meeting with Nikola
11 Koljevic and what he said to you. I'm going to ask you only one focussed
12 question about this meeting. When Koljevic spoke to you and the other
13 Muslims in your delegation, what was your understanding as to whether he
14 was speaking on behalf of Serb authorities in the area?
15 A. We first went to see the chief of the municipality, asking for
16 our safety to be guaranteed to continue living in Pale. He sent us to
17 the police chief. We put the same question to the chief of police. He
18 sent us back to the head of the municipality. And he said that he
19 couldn't guarantee our safety, and this is what the chief of the
20 municipality, the head of the municipality told us. We then asked both
21 of them to bring in someone --
22 Q. Sir, I'm sorry to interrupt, but may I ask you again to move
23 forward from when you spoke with the police chief and the chief of the
24 municipality to when you spoke with Koljevic, directly, and ask you
25 whether in your understanding Mr. Koljevic was speaking on behalf of the
1 Serb authorities?
2 A. He was speaking on behalf of the Serbian authorities at the time.
3 And he told us that the Serbs did not want to live with us.
4 Q. And I'm going to move now to paragraph 59 of your statement,
5 Exhibit P260. In the that paragraph, you say that your neighbour,
6 Fehim Hrvo, was arrested and later killed. Do you know where he was
8 A. He was imprisoned in an old facility -- in an old cinema, in
9 fact, which was close to the police station.
10 Q. Do you know if there was ever an investigation into his death?
11 A. No. An investigation was not conducted.
12 Q. Okay. And in paragraph 60 of your statement, P260, you say
13 Izet Jasarevic, Alija Jusufovic, and Nasko Smajic were also killed. Was
14 there ever an investigation into any of their deaths?
15 A. No. An investigation was not launched into their deaths.
16 Q. Next, Mr. Crncalo, I want to take you to paragraph 78 of P260.
17 In that paragraph, you say that you saw Radovan Karadzic give a speech in
18 Pale in June 1992. What first brought you out of your house that
20 A. My health is not very good, but I do smoke and in such stressful
21 situations I started smoking even more. I didn't have any cigarettes so
22 I went to buy some cigarettes. There was a little kiosk down by an old
23 hotel. I went to the kiosk and there was some sort of a meeting by the
24 Dom Kulture, the cultural centre. I know what it was about. I won't go
25 into that. Radovan was giving a speech at that meeting, and he said, We
1 have to attack all Muslim houses, wherever they may be. In this manner,
2 you will be defending your own house, end of quote.
3 Q. And are you sure of that word, sir, that he said "all" Muslim
5 A. I'm now telling you what I heard him say. As to what he thought,
6 I don't know. But I'm telling you what I heard.
7 Q. So just so the Trial Chamber understands, sir, your answer is,
8 yes, you are sure you heard him say that word?
9 A. I heard him, and I saw him.
10 Q. About how far away from Karadzic were you at the time?
11 A. Well, I would say I was about 15 metres away, give or take a
12 metre. I can't say precisely. All I can do is assume that that was the
14 Q. And then, Mr. Crncalo, you describe in your statement being
15 forced to leave Pale and arriving in Sarajevo.
16 When you joined the convoy and other Muslims joined the convoy to
17 leave Pale, did some Muslims remain in Pale?
18 A. Yes, they did remain. Five families remained: The Mutapcici
19 husband and wife; and Ramiz Kujovic and his wife Hasna; and then
20 Muharem Kujovic remained; Ziba Kadic remained; and a mother and daughter,
21 Alija Hodzas and Hajra.
22 Q. You say in page 80 -- or, sorry, paragraph 80 of P260, you name
23 some of these people and say they were killed. My question is: Of the
24 Muslims you know who remained in Pale, did any of them survive the war?
25 A. No one survived the war. I went to the burials of some of them
1 after exhumations had been carried out, but I know that Ziba Kadic didn't
2 survive. However, I don't know whether she died of natural causes or
3 whether she was killed. I couldn't say anything about that.
4 MR. TRALDI: And I'd ask the Court Officer now to please call
5 P178, the municipalities map book, to the screen, and turn to page 33.
6 Q. While they do that, Mr. Crncalo, you singled out Ziba Kadic and
7 said you couldn't be sure if she died of natural causes. Does that mean
8 you are sure that the other people were killed?
9 A. Yes. Some of them were found in pieces in the municipality of
10 Pale. That's what their son told me when he went to the exhumation.
11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's addition: They were found in
12 Gornji Bare.
13 MR. TRALDI:
14 Q. And, sir, you'll see a map now on your screen labelling the
15 mosques in Pale. Based on your memory, does the map accurately reflect
16 the position of those maps?
17 MR. TRALDI: And I'd suggest that we zoom in a little bit for the
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's not necessary, I can see it.
20 The sites at which the mosques were located are quite clearly and
21 correctly marked.
22 Q. And you say in your statement, sir, that you heard that after you
23 left the mosques in Pale were destroyed. You referred to the period
24 between July and September 1992. Who controlled Pale at that time?
25 A. At the time, Pale was under the control of the Serbian Democratic
2 Q. Thank you, sir. And now I want to turn to your time in Sarajevo.
3 In paragraphs 89 and 90 of Exhibit P260, you mention that you were near
4 certain civilians who were hit by sniper fire. Did you see either of
5 those shootings yourself?
6 A. Yes. I was personally present, and I saw the incident. The
7 first person who died by the Hotel Bristol was wearing jeans and a jean
8 jacket, and I didn't know there was a sniper firing there. He tried to
9 cross the road and he was hit by a sniper. He only managed to move ahead
10 a bit and fell down and there was a puddle of blood at his feet.
11 Q. And aside from these two incidents described in your statement,
12 sir - on Brodska Street and at the Hotel Bristol - did you ever see
13 anyone else hit by gun-fire in Sarajevo?
14 A. Yes. I saw people being killed on television, but as for being
15 present and seeing people being killed, well, yes, in Brodska Street and
16 at the Hotel Bristol I did see such incidents. But all the streets were
17 covered in blood, and I was continually stepping in that blood.
18 Q. And, finally, Mr. Crncalo, I have to ask you briefly about the
19 morning of the 28th of August, 1995.
20 MR. TRALDI: For the Chamber's and Defence's reference, this is
21 discussed in Exhibit P260, starting at paragraph 94.
22 Q. First, sir, had you been to Markale market yourself during your
23 time in Sarajevo?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. When you went to the market, what kind of people would you
1 usually see there?
2 A. Well, usually ordinary people who had nothing to live off.
3 They'd go there to buy some food, if anyone was selling food there. So
4 usually it was these very ordinary people, the most ordinary people who
5 would be there.
6 Q. Had you ever seen anyone there carrying a gun?
7 A. There were no such cases.
8 Q. You say in paragraph 94 of your statement that you left home that
9 morning to look for your wife after you heard a shell. Around what time
10 was that?
11 A. Well, my wife was supposed to return - that's what we had agreed
12 on - about half past 10.00 or 11.00. When she did not turn up, I had to
13 go to look for her.
14 Q. And in paragraph 95 -- and, again, Mr. Crncalo, please don't
15 hesitate to tell the Chamber if you need a break. In paragraph 95 --
16 A. I'll continue now. I went to look for her. Halfway there,
17 others asked me where I was going. I said I was going to Markale. My
18 wife left. She hasn't returned. They said a catastrophe happened over
19 there. I said, What happened? They said a shell fell. I went up there.
20 I'll never forget that image. It will never leave me.
21 The street was covered in blood. There were about 30 there --
22 well, that's my assessment. But the part hit by the shell was covered in
23 blood. There was a fence protecting pedestrians from the trams, and
24 there were body parts or, rather, parts of clothing and a footwear on the
25 fence, in the streets. There were body parts. The entire fence was
1 covered in blood. I observed all of this and there were people looking
2 on from side streets. They asked me, What are you doing? I said, I'm
3 looking for my wife. There seemed to be wounded, people who were dead
4 there. And they put them on -- in vehicles and took them to the
6 I went to the hospital. I arrived at the hospital. There were
7 lists that had already been compiled and they were on the door. I
8 searched for my wife on the list. I couldn't find her name. Then
9 someone turned up in a white overall and asked me whether I had had a
10 look in the morgue. I said, No. They said, Go there. Maybe it was a
11 doctor. I don't know.
12 I arrived a room and I recognised her immediately. There was
13 seven bodies there. My wife was the third body in that row. The bodies
14 were the bodies of women. It's only human to cry, and I started crying.
15 Three individuals appeared from another room and asked me, Have you
16 recognised her? I said, Yes. Crncalo, Pasa. They noted this down. I
17 went home then and told the children.
18 So that's what I saw.
19 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, this completes my examination. And
20 looking at the clock, I'd suggest it might be an opportune moment for the
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Traldi.
23 Mr. Crncalo, we'll take a break at this moment. Would you please
24 follow the usher. We'd like to see you back in approximately 25 minutes
25 from now. Yes.
1 [The witness stands down]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Before we take that break, first of all,
3 Mr. Traldi, there's no need to provide the e-mail. The e-mail was sent,
4 as I see, by Ms. Stewart on the 25th of September at 5.24 p.m. in the
5 afternoon. It was even clearly indicated that 65 ter 28436 has been
7 Now, perhaps for a better understanding. Non-associated
8 exhibits - and this is one - non-associated exhibits are exhibits that
9 the Prosecution may use. Now, the Chamber usually does not start
10 studying these documents. We then have the 65 ter number, so in that
11 respect I was wrong when I said it's very difficult to do that without
12 65 ter numbers, but even with the 65 ter numbers the Chamber waits and
13 sees whether the party - and that is equally true for Prosecution and for
14 Defence - wish to use that document and wish to tender that document.
15 That's different with associated exhibits which are considered to be an
16 inherent part of the 92 ter statement.
17 Now, a -- this document, clarification, directly relates to the
18 92 ter statement, which the Chamber has reviewed, because it was part of
19 the motion, and, therefore, the Chamber rather would not find it on a
20 list of non-associated exhibits you may use. But if it's clear that you
21 want the statement to be corrected in accordance with such a document,
22 then we should receive that document itself and not just the 65 ter
23 number. Otherwise, the Chamber would have to start to select from your
24 non-associated exhibits which one which we think most likely you would
25 use or would not use, and that's really not how it should work. I take
1 it that the Defence takes a similar position, and expects the Chamber to
2 do the same, in relation to exhibits the Defence may use. We wait to
3 look at it until you use it. Therefore, such clarification should need a
4 different treatment.
5 We take a break, and we resume at ten minutes to 11.00.
6 --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.
7 --- On resuming at 10.52 a.m.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps I could briefly raise a matter.
11 On the 25th of September, the Prosecution has inquired about
12 changing the witness schedule in relation to the testimony of
13 Witness RM081. I don't think that we have already received the position
14 of the Defence.
15 Mr. Lukic. Mr. Lukic. Yes.
16 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. I'm trying to find RM081.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is that the one that you said --
19 MR. LUKIC: Yeah, yeah. I can see.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: It was -- [Microphone not activated].
21 MR. LUKIC: So in that week we have three witnesses; is that
23 MR. GROOME: No. The Prosecution sent an e-mail, and we did
24 discuss it briefly in court. This is a person who was detained in the
25 Vlahovac school in Rogatica, and our proposal was to have him available
1 to testify Friday next week if there was hearing time available.
2 MR. LUKIC: That's fine with the Defence.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Then you are -- you may proceed as
4 suggested, Mr. Groome.
5 And there's another matter I would like to raise in this context
6 but I will do that later.
7 [The witness takes the stand]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Before you are cross-examined, Mr. Crncalo,
9 Judge Fluegge has one or more questions for you.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Indeed, I would like to put one question to you.
11 At the beginning of the examination by Mr. Traldi, you were asked
12 about a certain person, Nikola Koljevic. Can you help me, what position
13 did this man held? Was he -- what -- what post did he held? Have you
14 any knowledge about that?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was the deputy prime minister of
16 Republika Srpska.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. That was all.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Crncalo, you'll now be cross-examined by
19 Mr. Ivetic. You'll find Mr. Ivetic to your left. Mr. Ivetic is a member
20 of the Defence team of the -- of Mr. Mladic.
21 Mr. Ivetic, please proceed.
22 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
23 Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic:
24 Q. Mr. Crncalo, I would ask today that you focus your answers to be
25 directly responsive to my questions and then we'll get through this as
1 quickly as possible. Is that understood, sir?
2 A. I understood.
3 Q. And furthermore, I would ask that if something I say or ask is
4 not clear to you, that you bring it to my attention. Is that okay, sir?
5 A. Yes, it is.
6 Q. While I do appreciate everything you have gone through, I need to
7 get to the full truth of things together with you, if you will permit me.
8 Is that agreed, sir?
9 A. That's fine.
10 Q. In that case, I will begin, sir. First of all, just prior to the
11 break, the Prosecution counsel asked you about various mosques in the
12 municipality of Pale that you state had been destroyed. Insofar as you
13 were gone from Pale municipality from July 1992 until the end of the war,
14 would you agree with me that you do not have independent personal
15 knowledge of how these mosques in Pale were damaged or destroyed?
16 A. I learned after the war that the mosques in Praca and Podvitez
17 were mined. Explosives were set up. The one in Bogovici burnt down
18 because it was mostly made of wood. The cemetery next to the Podvitez
19 mosque was bulldosed so that no one would know any longer where each of
20 the graves were.
21 Q. You -- you have no information of when that was done and by whom
22 it was done, do you, sir?
23 A. I was told that it was done by the Serb forces in 1992.
24 Q. Let me move along to the section where you identified several
25 individuals that stayed in Pale municipality after you left and for whom
1 you said that they were deceased. I would like to focus for a moment on
2 Ziba Kadic, whom you indicated that you were not sure of how she had
3 become deceased --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, paragraph number?
5 MR. IVETIC: I'm sorry, Your Honours. That would be -- that
6 would be the testimony that -- that we just had before the break. I do
7 not believe it is a separate -- I do apologise. It is a paragraph --
8 Ms. Kadic is not mentioned in the amalgamated statement. She has been
9 omitted by the Office of the Prosecutor. She is mentioned in the last
10 paragraph of the prior statement, but the paragraph in this statement,
11 P260, is paragraph 80.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Let me see. Do I --
13 MR. IVETIC: Which is on page 14 in the English.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Just for my understanding, you say it was
15 about a person which was -- is not in the statement and also not in the
16 testimony, is that?
17 MR. IVETIC: He testified to her. Her name is not in this
18 statement. It is contained in a prior statement that the Office of the
19 Prosecutor had of this witness.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But the Chamber is not familiar with any prior
21 statements. The Chamber is only familiar with this statement, so
22 therefore I have to check. Is it anywhere on the transcript of today.
23 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 MR. IVETIC: Immediately prior to the break.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, immediately. Thank you.
2 Please proceed.
3 MR. IVETIC: Thank you. And perhaps to make it easier for
4 everyone, if we could pull up 1D285, which is a copy of the statement
5 taken by the Office of the Prosecutor on 8 June 2001 with this witness.
6 And if we can turn to page 8 in both versions in e-court. And while we
7 wait for that, I can spend the time efficiently with the witness with the
8 lead-in to this question.
9 Q. Sir, am I correct that you -- since returning to Pale, you have
10 been informed or advised that Ms. Ziba Kadic died after the war of
11 natural causes?
12 A. Ziba did not see the end of the war.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Could we ... could we have the right page.
14 MR. IVETIC: This does appear to be the right page, Your Honour,
15 the eighth page in both versions.
16 Q. Sir, first of all, if we look at the English version of the
17 document that is before you, is that your signature depicted as one of
18 the three signatures on this statement?
19 A. Yes, the first one.
20 Q. And, sir, if you could direct your attention to the last
21 paragraph on that page. In this statement given to the Office of the
22 Prosecutor, you identify Ms. Ziba Kadic as an individual who not only
23 stayed behind in Pale but who also was killed. This -- this paragraph,
24 therefore, is not correct; is that correct? Is that --
25 A. Let me answer. The situation as it was while I was there became
1 even worse once I left. It is impossible that she died a natural death
2 under such conditions. In any case, I accepted for the purposes of this
3 Tribunal that she died of natural causes, and this is what I stand by.
4 Q. Fair enough, sir. So information you received subsequent to
5 signing this statement that is before you now on the screen caused you to
6 change your conclusions about the manner in which she died. You cannot
7 exclude the possibility that these other individuals, likewise, had
8 deaths that are different than the conclusions you draw for them; is that
10 A. Sir, if you find the pieces of a body in a grave, isn't that a
11 violent death? Or Hasna Alija and Hajra were found at the Jewish
12 cemetery. They were mother and daughter. And you could clearly see they
13 were -- they died a violent death.
14 As for the Mutapcics, you could see on their bodies that they
15 were killed by bullets. I attended the funerals of those people once
16 their bodies had been exhumed.
17 Q. I would now like to move --
18 MR. IVETIC: I'm not going to be seeking to introduce the
19 document. The testimony of the witness is clear.
20 Q. I would like to ask you now about some things that were unclear
21 to me from your statement, which is P260 now.
22 MR. IVETIC: We're returning to the statement today. And Your
23 Honours and for the Prosecution, I do have a hard copy in B/C/S which
24 might make it more easier for the witness to navigate through the same
25 with the assistance of the usher. And after the opposing counsel has
1 seen the same, I would ask that it be given to him.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Before we do that, I'm a bit confused by some
3 of the answers which I would like to clarify.
4 Mr. Crncalo, you were asked about the death of Ms. Ziba Kadic.
5 You said the situation became worse after you left, and you say:
6 "It is impossible that she died a natural death under such
8 And then you said:
9 "I accepted that for the purposes of this Tribunal that she died
10 of natural causes."
11 And you said that is what you stand by. That seems to be
12 contradictory. Could you tell us now whether you accept for the
13 possibility that she died from natural causes. Is that how I have to
14 understand your testimony? Or do you still stand by that she died not
15 from natural causes?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As for Ziba Kadic, I accepted that
17 she died a natural death, and I still accept that. If it suffices, then,
18 yes, I will gladly say that she died of natural causes. In any case, she
19 did not live to see the end of the war.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you say she died during the war, and you
21 have no personal knowledge of how she died. Is that --
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have no such knowledge.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.
24 Please proceed.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I just ask one further question on the
1 questions that were asked by the Judge.
2 Now, you have no personal knowledge that -- of how she died. You
3 can therefore not say whether she was killed but neither can you say she
4 died of natural causes, can you?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't say either. I have no
6 proof either way. Since I can't prove she was killed, I will happily
7 accept that she died of natural causes then.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: But you can't accept that. Can you accept that,
9 given the fact that you don't have the facts of how she died?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have to accept that. I don't
11 want to raise any doubts here.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
13 MR. IVETIC:
14 Q. Sir, I'd like to ask you about paragraph 15 of your statement,
16 MR. IVETIC: That is found in the B/C/S at page 5; on the
17 English, at page 3.
18 Q. And the question I want to ask you is, there you talk about the
19 "situation returning to normal" until the end of 1991. Now since we have
20 some paragraphs redacted from your statement, we do not have the full
21 picture of what are you talking, so let me address that with you first.
22 Am I correct that the, quote/unquote, situation you are referring
23 to here at this paragraph was actually relating to the 6 May 1991
24 celebration of St. Georges Day by Mr. Vojislav Seselj and members of his
25 party on the Romanija mountain?
1 A. Yes, it does.
2 Q. And is it also correct that at that time, when Mr. Seselj held
3 this St. George Day celebration at Novakova Pecina, I believe, on the
4 Romanija mountain, you personally saw this as a threat to the Muslim
5 community of Pale?
6 A. We had to see it that way. He went there to re-establish his
7 Chetnik movement there. We had to be fearful.
8 Q. Isn't it true, sir, that Novakova Pecina on the Romanija mountain
9 is actually a historical landmark of the Hajduks' and later of the
10 partizan anti-fascist struggle of all Yugoslavs and had nothing to do
11 with the -- Mr. Seselj and his people known as Chetniks?
12 A. Historically speaking, the Novakova Pecina location is such.
13 Chetniks, however, did take shelter there, whereas the partisans never
14 did. They were never there.
15 Q. Am I also correct that your primary concern at that time was that
16 you were concerned that the Chetniks would drink alcohol during their
17 gatherings and "then turn their anger towards our Muslim community."
18 A. The consumption of alcohol by the people we are now referring to
19 as Chetniks was normal, regular. They didn't do much otherwise. A
20 person under influence has no firm control over any actions, and of
21 course we were concerned as to what would happen with us.
22 Q. And arising out of your concerns, sir, am I correct that in
23 May of 1991 you and other Muslims from your neighbourhood organised and
24 participated in a guard watch?
25 A. This is how it was. That same night, Izet Smajic, my neighbour
1 and I, turned our lights in front of the houses and were walking about.
2 At 1.00, 1.30, or 2.00 in the morning, a police car pulled in.
3 Hujido [phoen] Kadric was in the vehicle as well as the deputy chief of
4 police, Milan Simovic. They were touring the area and when Simovic saw
5 me, since we used to be schoolmates, he asked me what happened, and I
6 told him I have no idea, Seselj went up to Mount Romanija. And he said
7 that three municipalities were sleepless that night. Fear nothing. If
8 there's anything, just give me a call. There's no need to be afraid. Go
9 back to your house. I told him, Well, I can go back in but I can't sleep
10 any longer. That's how it was.
11 Q. And so we can clarify, sir: Mr. Simovic and Mr. Kadric were both
12 members of the local police in Pale.
13 A. Yes, yes.
14 Q. One was a Serb, one was an ethnic Muslim; is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And did you then abandon your guard watch and go inside your
17 house, as advised by these -- by these policemen?
18 A. I don't know if you can call it guard watch. But, in any case,
19 my neighbour and I were outside. They left. And we stayed outside. We
20 didn't go back into our houses.
21 Q. How many days did you stay outside on -- on this type of watch?
22 Night watch or guard watch.
23 A. Until Seselj left. For about a week or ten days or so. I can't
24 be more precise. In any case, that's when we stopped coming outside
25 during the night.
1 Q. Would you agree with me, sir, then that after Mr. Seselj's party
2 left Pale, after St. Georges Day, that the situation that had caused this
3 tension dissipated and was no longer in existence?
4 A. Of course, it was -- it became easier for all of us once he left.
5 Q. Is it also correct, sir, that nothing bad happened to any members
6 of the Bosnian Muslim community arising out of this gathering and
7 celebration for St. Georges Day; that is to say, nothing bad happened
8 even after Seselj's meeting or rally?
9 A. Nothing bad happened.
10 Q. Would you agree with me that this St. George Day celebration was
11 an annual celebration that occurred in the years prior to 1991, not only
12 at this location but throughout the former Yugoslavia?
13 A. The religious holiday of St. Georges Day is a Serb holiday.
14 There were many families celebrating it. Traditionally speaking, the 6th
15 of May was the gathering of the Hajduks who were mostly in forests and
16 caves where they found shelter. During the St. Georges Day that year,
17 they visited in the Novakova Pecina location. Seselj burst in and
18 organised something there. I don't know what exactly. I only know that
19 we were fearful.
20 Q. And in each of those prior years where St. Georges Day on the 6th
21 of May had been celebrated in Pale municipality, it had transpired
22 without any negative incidents against the Muslim community; is that
24 A. Sir, it wasn't just St. Georges Day that was celebrated but many
25 other religious holidays. Before the political parties were organised,
1 people of different religions invited their friends to their religious
2 holidays to celebrate the Bajram and Christmas and other holidays. The
3 situation was quite a good one. Once the political parties took over,
4 all of the things that we are discussing now and all of the things
5 because of which I am here now started happening.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, is there any recording of what was said
7 by Mr. Seselj at that occasion so that we're better able to understand
8 whether the witness was oversensitive or whether your questions are --
9 are suggesting something which is not realistic? Is there any recording
10 of that? So that the Chamber might call that as evidence so as to better
11 understand the evidence of this witness.
12 MR. IVETIC: None was identified to us, Your Honours.
13 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour, there's a public exhibit in another
14 case at the Tribunal which is a recording of a speech Mr. Seselj gave
15 around that time. We can review that and update the Chamber and Defence
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And perhaps I'm not -- we might be interested
18 in any video of that, but we might also, first of all, be interested in a
19 transcript of what he said, if that exists, so as to better be able to
20 understand and evaluate the evidence.
21 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
22 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
23 Q. Now, after this celebration on the 6th of May, 1992, Mr. Seselj
24 and his Chetniks, as you called them, that is to say, members of his
25 radical party, they did not hold any rallies in Pale for the remainder of
1 1991 or 1992; is that correct?
2 A. Rallies in Pale started taking place in 1991, as far as I recall.
3 This is the first time I get a question of that sort. It was around
4 midsummer and late June or in July. That's when the rallies started
5 taking place. There was a crisis in Kosovo and people were saying we
6 won't give up Kosovo while carrying bottles of brandy in their hand. One
7 couldn't say whether they were radicals or not because mostly civilians
8 chanted such slogans.
9 Q. Okay. I would like to refresh your recollection, so we have a
10 clear and full answer, with the testimony that you gave in the Krajisnik
12 MR. IVETIC: This is -- this is document 1D291. It is page 82 in
13 e-court. And while we wait for that, this is transcript page 5369, lines
14 4 through 14, of the witness's testimony in those proceedings.
15 Q. And, sir, I will read for you, since there is no B/C/S
16 translation of the -- of this transcript. The question that was posed,
17 and it -- beginning like this:
18 "Q. Try to be specific here, Mr. Crncalo. Forget the 6th of May.
19 Let's move on from the 6th of May. When do you say that the next meeting
20 after the 6th of May of the Chetniks was held?
21 "A. I don't know.
22 "Q. And, in fact, you don't know if any further meeting was held,
23 do you?
24 "A. Between the 6th of May and the next year 6th of May, I don't
25 know whether there were any meetings of the Radical Party and these
1 radical people.
2 "Q. And when you say the Radical Party, you mean Chetniks, do
4 "A. Yes."
5 Sir, does this selection from your testimony in the Krajisnik
6 proceedings comport to your recollections of the state of affairs
7 following the 6th of May, 1991.
8 A. I remember clearly what things were like in the course of those
9 days. As for the people shouting slogans about Kosovo, there were no
10 symbols to be seen in -- so that one could say whether they were radicals
11 or not, but there were columns marching down the street shouting, We will
12 defend Serbhood. We won't give up Kosovo. That's how things were.
13 Q. Before we get to -- well, let's -- let's -- before we get to
14 Kosovo, do you stand by your testimony in the Krajisnik case, which I
15 have just read to you?
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic.
17 MR. IVETIC: Yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Your question suggests a contradiction between the
19 two. So do you stand by this or do you stand by that. There is no such
20 contradiction in the wordings I just had. So therefore, I think it might
21 confuse the witness if you make him -- although you did not literally do
22 that, but you make him choose between the two, and I think his last
23 answer explained that already. Would you please be very precise and be
24 fair to the witness in this respect.
25 MR. IVETIC: I will. I'm satisfied with the way it's in the
1 transcript that he has explained. I will move on now to the second item
2 he identified.
3 Q. Sir, you talked about a gathering relating to Kosovo and the
4 conflict in Kosovo. Am I correct this was a one-time event that occurred
5 in 1991 in Pale?
6 A. I still went to work in the engines factory Famos near Koran, and
7 I could see then that there were columns being formed twice or three
8 times per week. And the whole half of that year, things developed that
10 Q. Is it your testimony that you were present for the rally or that
11 others told you what transpired at the rally?
12 A. Pale is a small place. Along the route from my house to the
13 factory, that's where columns were formed and I passed by them. As for
14 my attendance, what would I do there?
15 Q. Fair enough. If we can move on to a related topic. In
16 paragraph 18 of your statement, that's P260, page 4 in the English, page
17 6 in the B/C/S, you again are talking about 1991 and how these Chetnik
18 members did not physically mistreat you but you were affected
19 psychologically. And you talk in your statement about how Serb Chetniks
20 were a paramilitary group with a distinct uniform.
21 And, sir, I put it to you that the only Chetniks in uniform that
22 you ever saw in Pale municipality with your own eyes are just the two
23 individuals that you saw at the petrol station who wore homemade uniforms
24 and who are referenced in your statement. Is that accurate?
25 A. My statement is accurate. I stand by it. At the time, we all
1 put such people wearing arms under one hat. As for the people you're
2 referring to at the gas station, I could only identify them by their fur
4 Q. And the men at the gas station that you referred to as Chetniks
5 did not have arms; is that correct?
6 A. They did not have any weapons at that time.
7 Q. And those are the only two people you saw in Pale who you
8 visually could identify as being Chetniks that caused all this tension
9 for you.
10 A. It's not because of them that this tension arose. It arose
11 because of constant shooting from automatic weapons on the periphery of
12 Pale. It never stopped, every night. That's what put fear into us.
13 Hand-grenades were thrown on to the house of Bekir Jasarevic.
14 Q. Sir, we're talking about 1991.
15 A. Yes, yes. Oh, sorry.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Could I still seek that we receive an answer.
17 You told about the two people at the gas station. Did you,
18 around that same time, see people dressed in a similar way apart from
19 these two at a gas station?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, there were some not wearing a
21 full uniform, but there were some who were wearing parts of a uniform,
22 the upper part or the lower part. But I only saw those two wearing the
23 fur hat and the -- the -- the sign of the -- skull and bones. I didn't
24 see it on anyone else.
25 JUDGE ORIE: These two were the only ones you saw wearing those
1 hats and those skull-and-bones sign?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Right.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
4 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
5 Q. At paragraph 17 of your statement, you discuss the shooting of
6 weapons in the air for Orthodox Christmas and other holidays. Am I
7 correct that this is a tradition that took place every year prior to 1991
8 as well?
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, you use the word "for," whereas I read
10 in the statement "after."
11 MR. IVETIC: I apologise. Let me rephrase the question. Perhaps
12 I should cite the -- the -- the paragraph.
13 Q. Sir, at paragraph 17, you say:
14 "I know this because from time to time, especially after Orthodox
15 Christmas and other Serb holidays, the Serbs would shoot those [sic]
16 weapons in the air. I could hear the sound of the gun-fire and I could
17 distinguish the sound from the shooting of hunting-type weapons."
18 And my question for you, sir: Isn't it correct that this
19 situation, the shooting of weapons after Christmas and other Serb
20 holidays, was an annual occurrence that occurred in all the years prior
21 to 1991 as well?
22 A. Mr. Lawyer, sir, I was born in Pale, and I know very well my Serb
23 neighbours, and they know me and other Muslims. Nobody would ever mind
24 if there was a wedding party or Christmas or any holiday, not only the
25 new year, if somebody was firing a weapon. Nobody would mind or tell
1 anyone anything. But when the shooting goes on every night, then
2 something is wrong. Then there is an amount of fear and pressure created
3 among the non-Serbs.
4 Q. Sir, show me in paragraph 17 where you say the shooting was every
5 night? I read it as saying "time to time." Please clarify this
6 statement that you have now made.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, there's no use of asking the witness
8 about every night. He said that from time to time, especially after, now
9 that does not in any way contradict. And the witness, if he now
10 clarifies it, he is fully entitled to do that, and then there's no use in
11 asking him to point at paragraph 17 where, of course, we all can see it
12 doesn't use the same language.
13 MR. IVETIC: And he has testified that this truthful and
14 accurate, he's reviewed it three times in three prior trials, and now
15 he's got something different.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Well, what is -- it's different language. Whether
17 it's different from content, that is still to be seen. But, of course,
18 you may further explore that matter and further ask for it.
19 By the way, I notice that I understand paragraph 16 and 17 - and
20 so do my colleagues - as primarily pointing at the type of weapons. Not
21 primarily about that they were fired, for example, which may well be a
22 custom on these holiday, although the witness also extends this too. But
23 the type of weapon seems to be a very important part of this -- part of
24 the statement.
25 Mr. Traldi.
1 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour, just to correct an inadvertent
2 misstatement on the record. At page 42 of today's temporary transcript,
3 line 16, Mr. Ivetic said Mr. Crncalo had verified the statement in three
4 prior trials. The statement actually post dates his Krajisnik testimony
5 and was not used in Stanisic and Zupljanin, so it's only one prior trial.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, having listened to all this, you may
8 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Q. Now I want to look at paragraph 16 of your statement, which was
10 mentioned by Presiding Judge. That's page 3 in the English and page --
11 breaks over pages 5 and 6 in the B/C/S.
12 In this paragraph, you talk about the Chetniks being armed and
13 you talk about 50, possibly more, Chetniks that went to fight in Pakrac,
14 Croatia, and kept their weapons. I would like to have you comment upon
15 your testimony from the Krajisnik proceedings so we can better understand
16 what this paragraph means.
17 MR. IVETIC: I would call up 1D291, pages 85 is the -- is the
18 e-court reference. Although the section that I have will continue
19 through page 87 of the transcript. And I'll wait for that and then I
20 will begin.
21 Q. It starts in the middle of the page at line 14, sir, and I will
22 again read the English so that can you get the translation of the
24 "Q. Is this -- this figure of 50 or about 50 that you put
25 forward, is that based on what you were told by other people or heard
1 from other people?
2 "A. Well, when I was in the company of people, of those people,
3 coming back from those battle-fields, when they were talking amongst
4 themselves that they were in these [sic] two parts of the battle ground,
5 listening to them, that's what I concluded. I didn't hear it from them,
6 but listening to them talk, that's what I concluded.
7 "Q. Were they people at work or people that you met in a cafe or
9 "A. At work, and I don't frequent cafes much. So at work.
10 "Q. So people from your work, is this what you say, people from
11 your work went to fight in Croatia and returned from fighting in Croatia?
12 Is that right?
13 "A. Yes.
14 "Q. In that case, presumably, Mr. Crncalo, if it's people from
15 your work, you do have a pretty firm idea of how many were involved,
16 don't you?
17 "A. Where I work [sic] in the factory, there were 3.000 people,
18 and I can't know each of those employees, all those workers.
19 "Q. At that moment, I'm suggesting to you that even among 3.000
20 employees, you would have had a pretty firm idea of how many of those
21 3.000 went to Croatia and returned from fighting in Croatia. Is that not
23 "A. Well, I didn't have a precise picture of it all, but that
24 [sic] what was common knowledge, at least on the shift I was working, and
25 we worked in three shifts. In the other two shifts, there were quite a
1 number of people whom I didn't know, so I don't know whether they went or
2 not. But the people working in my ... shift, they would say, and judging
3 on what the other -- the men in the other ... shifts say -- but, as I
4 say, I didn't know anybody personally, so I can't say.
5 "Q. How many men were on your shift?
6 "A. About 90.
7 "Q. And how many -- was it the same people constantly, was it,
8 broadly speaking, the same 90, not every day, but roughly speaking, it
9 was the same group of men continuing on the same shift, month in, month
10 out, was it?
11 "A. Yes, mostly. But you know how it was. There would be new
12 workers coming in. Some would retire, other young workers would come in.
13 "Q. Yes, of course, there would be changes. That [sic]
14 understood. How many men from your shift went to fight in Croatia?
15 "A. Three."
16 Sir, does this testimony from -- of yours from the Krajisnik
17 proceedings comport to your recollection of how many men you had actual
18 knowledge of that went to Pakrac, Croatia, from Pale municipality in
20 A. Those people coming back from Pakrac, sometimes during chance
21 meetings I overheard what they were saying. They mentioned those two
22 that you just referred to.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, I think that what -- what you are trying
24 to establish is that the number the witness used for the 50 people
25 returning from Pakrac is based on not direct observation by himself but
1 on the basis of hearsay and that, therefore, the number of 50 people
2 might not be as precise as suggested in the statement. Is that what you
3 want to establish?
4 MR. IVETIC: Actually, Your Honour, I believe three is the part
5 that he knows by hearsay. He does not know beyond three per the
6 testimony in Krajisnik, as I read it.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi.
8 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour, I'm not sure that accurately
9 characterises the Krajisnik testimony. And the witness actually explains
10 the number 50 two pages later in the same testimony.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Let's -- okay. Let's try to see.
12 Mr. Crncalo, in your statement, we find a number of 50 people
13 returning from Pakrac. Have we well understood that -- that this was not
14 personal knowledge of all these persons but that you concluded that
15 approximately that number of people must have returned from Pakrac
16 because that was what discussed at your workplace and which was, as you
17 say in the statement, public secret. So not direct observation.
18 Indirect observation. Perhaps the number not being very precise. Is
19 that well understood?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. You are quite
21 right. Instead of 50, there may have been 150 who went from our
22 municipality. But I heard about 50 from those people who returned.
23 JUDGE ORIE: You also could not exclude that there were only 20
24 or 30?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One has to be realistic. I am not
1 a military man inducting young recruits, giving them uniforms, sending
2 them to Pakrac or elsewhere. I couldn't know these individuals, and I
3 couldn't know the names of each person.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, any matter you think is worthwhile to
5 further elicit, you may do that in re-examination.
6 Mr. Ivetic, I take it that your point has been addressed.
7 MR. IVETIC: It has, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed. But also, think about the
9 break in the next couple of minutes.
10 MR. IVETIC: I'd like to finish at least this section so we have
11 at least some continuity.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 MR. IVETIC:
14 Q. With regard to these three people from work that went to Pakrac,
15 am I correct that they were mobilised and they responded to mobilisation
16 orders rather than volunteering?
17 A. They were organised, mobilised, and they had received call-up
19 Q. And at that time, wasn't it the legal duty of every citizen of
20 Yugoslavia that received call-up papers to respond and be mobilised by
21 the army?
22 A. You asked that question right. Until then, there was a law
23 prevailing in the whole territory of Yugoslavia that all able-bodied men
24 were obligated to report to the military department when called up.
25 However, during those days that we are talking about, none of the Muslims
1 were called up, only the Serbs.
2 Q. For the time being we are talking about these three Serb
3 colleagues from your work that went to Pakrac.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, it seems that your question addresses
5 the possible illegality of having been called up to go to Croatia and to
6 fight. I do not find anything of the kind in the statement.
7 And I wonder whether it's the Prosecution's position that it
8 would be illegal at that time for Serbs to respond to call-ups and to
9 join your unit and go wherever you were sent.
10 [Prosecution counsel confer]
11 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, if I can --
12 JUDGE ORIE: No. I would first like to receive a response from
13 the Prosecution.
14 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, that's a rather complex question that
15 I'd like to an opportunity to think before I make a statement.
16 JUDGE ORIE: So there's now --
17 MR. GROOME: I don't like to speak about such things off the top
18 of my head.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Okay, then we have no answer to that.
20 Mr. Ivetic, you wanted to make an observation.
21 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honours. I was going to present the
22 witness's sworn testimony where he indicated differently.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then -- yes, but the Chamber, of course, is
24 not aware [Overlapping speakers] --
25 MR. IVETIC: [Overlapping speakers] ...
1 JUDGE ORIE: -- was totally lost as far as the relevance of all
2 that is concerned. Apart from that, of course, it's a question about
3 legality, illegality, which requires a legal opinion rather than factual
5 Please proceed.
6 MR. IVETIC: I think we can get this done in two minutes.
7 Q. Sir, I would like to direct your attention to page 88 of your
8 testimony from Krajisnik which is transcript page 5375, lines 1 through
9 14, of 1D291, which is up on the screen. And here you are again talking
10 about these three colleagues from work, and I will begin the quotation as
12 "Q. They weren't Chetniks, were they?
13 "A. Well, I don't know what structures they were in. I really
14 can't answer that.
15 "Q. But was there anything about your three work colleagues to
16 indicate that they were what you regarded as Chetniks?
17 "A. Well, we thought along those lines: First of all, the people
18 that were prone to these [sic] radical moves, that they were the first to
19 join the fighting. Now, whether they were those or not, it was our
20 understanding that they were.
21 "Q. So let me get this straight. Well, I'll put the question
22 another way. Apart from the fact that they -- the simple fact that they
23 went to Croatia to fight, do you know anything else about these [sic]
24 work colleagues of yours which indicated that they were what you regarded
25 as Chetniks?
1 "A. I don't, no."
2 Now, sir, having been refreshed with this testimony from
3 Krajisnik, is it your testimony that these individuals volunteered or
4 chose to go to war or were they mobilised and responding to a legal
5 obligation once mobilised.
6 A. I asked the manager because the number of personnel was reduced
7 in my shift.
8 Q. Sir, I must insist --
9 A. I asked, Where are these people?
10 Q. We're talking about these three individuals, and I'd like to know
11 with respect to these three individuals what exactly is your testimony.
12 Were they mobilised and responding to legal obligations, or did they
13 volunteer and choose to go to fight?
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, Mr. Ivetic. Where in the excerpt that you
15 just read to the witness is anything that could remind him of whether
16 there was mobilisation or volunteering?
17 MR. IVETIC: In this section, no, Your Honour, but the testimony
18 that he just gave in open court previously was that they responded to
19 call-ups. In his prior testimony he said that they were the first to
20 want to join the fighting.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: You quoted this to the witness and you said at the
22 end of it, Now that I have read you this and you have refreshed your
23 memory, can you answer me were these people mobilised or did they
24 volunteer. And I'm saying what is it here, from what you quoted to the
25 witness, that reminds witness on whether there was a mobilisation or
2 MR. IVETIC: Well, Your Honours, my point is to figure out from
3 the witness, since I have two sets of sworn testimony that, to me, appear
4 to be different, to find out what that is.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. I'm suggesting to you quote to the witness
6 a piece of his prior testimony which would remind him about whether these
7 three were mobilised or whether they volunteered. This what you quoted
8 to him doesn't do that.
9 MR. IVETIC: Agreed. Agreed.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: So can you do what would remind him.
11 MR. IVETIC: Okay.
12 Q. Sir, having heard your testimony from Krajisnik, does it remind
13 you of what you testified in the Krajisnik trial under oath?
14 A. I'm trying to answer you, and you stopped me. The manager told
15 me when I said, There are fewer people now. And he said, They were
16 mobilised. Including these three.
17 Q. Okay.
18 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I believe we could take the break now.
19 I'm finished with that section and will be moving on to the next section.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Could you indicate us how much time more time you
21 would need?
22 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: And could the witness already be escorted out of the
25 Mr. Crncalo, we'd like to see you back in 20 minutes.
1 MR. IVETIC: One hour and 10 minutes, I think, Your Honours.
2 Just outside of that. I will try to finish in less time, but one hour
3 and ten should be the outside limit.
4 [The witness stands down]
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if there's not much in re-examination, that
6 would just leave half an hour. And I suggest, Mr. Ivetic, if you say one
7 hour and 10 minutes that you try to squeeze it into the one hour, and if
8 it would be 65 minutes, I think Mr. Mladic would understand.
9 We take a break and return at quarter past 12.00.
10 --- Recess taken at 11.57 a.m.
11 --- On resuming at 12.15 p.m.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
13 Meanwhile, Mr. Ivetic, could you inform me whether you have
14 verified what was said by Mr. Seselj or whether there is any documentary
15 evidence on that.
16 Mr. Lukic, of course, if you want to answer the question, that's
17 fine. But Mr. Ivetic examining the witness.
18 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I spent the entire break with my client
19 in his cell. I had no opportunity to verify anything.
20 JUDGE ORIE: No. I was -- as a matter of fact, you asked the
21 questions in cross-examination, so I was referring rather to what
22 happened before you came into court today.
23 MR. IVETIC: Correct.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Because you're asking questions, you're suggesting
25 that it is an overreaction on certain matters, whereas I would then be
1 interested - and I thought you would be interested to know as well - what
2 Mr. Seselj said at that moment because that might be very important.
3 I think that Mr. Mladic wants to consult with you. He has had an
4 opportunity to do that during the break as we said before. And if
5 Mr. Mladic wants to bring anything to your attention he may now write a
6 little note. And if it's so urgent, Mr. Ivetic, that you think it
7 couldn't wait until the next break, then we'll hear from you.
8 MR. IVETIC: Thank you. And, Your Honours, if I may respond.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 MR. IVETIC: In preparations for this witness, I have to go upon
11 what's been disclosed for this witness, what other material we can find.
12 My preparations include reviewing transcripts from everything single
13 proceeding where this witness has testified to, and the corpus of the
14 knowledge and the testimony that he has contained in here, the questions
15 he's been asked by other counsel on these same topics, the answers he's
16 given. And so that was my -- that was where all my questioning comes
17 from, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand that you didn't go beyond that
19 and -- because you asked questions about that event, and you apparently
20 were aware of the character of the location where the meeting was held.
21 I don't know whether that -- and the Chamber, of course, is not in a
22 position to verify that.
23 [The witness takes the stand]
24 JUDGE ORIE: The questioning was rather suggestive as that there
25 would be no reason, and we just wondered whether you were also interested
1 in hearing what Mr. Seselj said at that occasion which might support the
2 evidence of the witness or might contradict the evidence of the witness.
3 Mr. Crncalo, Mr. Ivetic will now continue his cross-examination.
4 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
5 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
6 Q. Sir, I'd like to move onto several other matters.
7 First of all, are you aware of the fact that during the years
8 1991 and 1992, the Bosnian Muslim SDA political party was clandestinely
9 procuring weapons and distributing them to its people in the
11 A. I lived in the municipality of Pale. In 1992, it wasn't possible
12 to enter the territory of Pale. It wasn't possible for foreign
13 individuals to enter the territory of Pale. What you're asking me about
14 is something I know nothing of. I am not aware of anyone having obtained
15 weapons in secret.
16 Q. Okay. Am I correct, sir, that you describe yourself as a
17 sympathizer of the SDA party, albeit it not a member?
18 A. You're right.
19 Q. For the record, can you tell us, if you know, about the attack
20 carried out on Renovica village in Pale municipality wherein two Serb
21 policemen were killed and five other Serb policemen were wounded while
22 trying to disarm that village?
23 And, for the record, that was in -- 20 -- 22nd -- well, in May of
24 1992 [realtime transcript read in error "1991"], sir.
25 A. I know about the incident, and that evening after the attack,
1 Malko Koroman, the chief of police, stated on TV, he was in tears, that
2 unfortunately there was war in the municipality of Pale, and he said that
3 two of his policemen had been killed in Renovica.
4 Q. Okay, sir. And do you also have knowledge that - and also in
5 May of 1992 - the Serb civilians of Renovica were expelled from that
6 village by armed Muslim fighters, and, thus, streamed into Pale as
8 A. When the attack was carried out, as you say, they wanted to
9 confiscate weapons. It was a classic attack on the municipality of -- on
10 the local commune of Renovica because 90 per cent of the population is
11 Muslim down there. Yes, there were some Serbs in Renovica, but they
12 could have withdrawn quite easily with the Serbian forces that were in
13 Renovica, and they could have gone to Pale. I didn't live in Renovica
14 and I couldn't go there, so I'm not in a position to describe things in
15 detail for you.
16 Q. Fair enough, sir. For the record --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi.
18 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour, just at transcript page 54, line 13,
19 I'd ask Mr. Ivetic to check that line and see if the year he said is
20 correctly recorded there. I believe he said 1992 and the transcript
21 reflects 1991. That's temporary transcript page 54 of today's
22 transcript, Mr. Ivetic.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic.
24 MR. IVETIC: It should be 1992. I apologise.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
1 MR. IVETIC:
2 Q. For the record sir, are you aware of the existence of armed
3 Bosnian Muslim fighters in the municipality of Pale in 1992?
4 A. There were no fighters, no Muslim fighters in the municipality of
5 Pale. There were the local inhabitants who, well, let's say had lived
6 there for centuries, their parents, their ancestors, their relatives, but
7 as for organised military formations, no, there were no such formations
9 Q. Can you tell us for the record who are Nisad Crncalo and Emir
10 Crncalo and if they have any relation to you?
11 A. Yes, they are relatives of mean.
12 Q. And were these two individuals either members or sympathizers of
13 the SDA?
14 A. To be quite frank, I never tried to verify whether an individual
15 was a member or not. All I can say is that I knew where I stood.
16 Q. With -- with regard --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic. Written notes, nothing else.
18 Otherwise, you will be removed from this courtroom. Last warning.
19 MR. IVETIC:
20 Q. With regard to these individuals I believe you testified in the
21 Krajisnik case they were your cousins. These relatives, in any event,
22 Nisad and Emir Crncalo. You were presented in Krajisnik with the
23 proposition that these individuals had been arrested because they had
24 been trading in illegal weapons. Do you recall that testimony, sir?
25 A. Yes, I remember the event. They were never involved in a
1 trafficking scheme for food or weapons. They were arrested in the street
2 and I saw that myself. And it's not only they who were arrested, quite a
3 few young people were arrested at the time.
4 Q. And you personally intervened to get them released from custody;
5 is that correct?
6 A. Yes. It wasn't just me. There were about ten of us who went to
7 see Malko Koroman to ask him about what was happening and why these young
8 people had been arrested.
9 Q. And eventually, through your efforts, these relatives of yours
10 were released; is that correct?
11 A. Not just these two relatives of mine whose names I have
12 mentioned. There were certainly at least ten young people, young men,
13 who had been arrested on that day.
14 Q. I put to you, sir, that in Pale municipality, specifically in
15 Praca, that the Bosnian Muslim population there had access not only to
16 hunting and sport guns but also to automatic rifles up to the start of
17 the war in April. Would you agree with that proposition, sir?
18 A. I wouldn't. In Renovica there was a military barracks and they
19 were able to control the population. If any military weapons arrived
20 that weren't intended for those barracks, in such cases, disciplinary
21 measures would have been taken.
22 Q. Sir, your answer specifies Renovica. I'm asking you now go
23 Praca. Are you familiar with Praca?
24 A. Of course, I -- of course, I am.
25 Q. Would you agree with me that the Muslim males in Praca possessed
1 not only hunting and short guns but also had access to automatic weapons,
2 automatic rifles, up to the start of the war in April?
3 A. I'm quite sure that they did not have any such weapons. I could
4 stake my life on it.
5 Q. I'd like to present to you your sworn testimony in the Karadzic
7 MR. IVETIC: 1D288, page 26 in e-court at the bottom.
8 Q. Wherein you testified pertaining to questions posed to you by
9 Mr. Karadzic. And when that comes up, it starts at the bottom of the
10 page and goes onto the next page. I will read for you, sir. Please
11 listen carefully. Starting at line 19:
12 "Q. Now, could I draw your attention to the document on the
13 screen dated 28th April. It says:
14 'As a result of a successful operation by the employees of the
15 public security station in Pale, most Muslims from Praca handed over
16 their weapons today. Automatic rifles, which had been distributed with
17 the mediation of the Praca Imam Fazlo Gljiva were handed over to the
18 authorities. These weapons had arrived in Praca through channels used by
19 Senaid Memic from Hrasnica. This well known Muslim extremist armed
20 members of the Muslim community throughout Bosnia-Herzegovina and from
21 that shipment, 20 automatic rifles arrived in the Praca region.'
22 "Can you see this document?
23 "A. Yes, but these weapons were legally distributed at the police
24 station of Pale to reserve policemen, and those who couldn't muster the
25 courage to bring this rifle and uniform to the police station were
1 returned otherwise. I personally took two rifles from two reserve
2 policemen and turned them over at the police station.
3 "Q. You're talking about weapons that people are issued with when
4 they go on an exercise, be they reserve policemen or reserve soldiers,
5 they get gas masks and uniforms and weapons and they take it all home.
6 "A. That's the way it used to work."
7 Let me stop right there for now. Do you recall this testimony
8 from the Karadzic proceedings, sir.
9 A. Yes, I do. But you have to allow me to answer your question.
10 Q. Sir, how do you reconcile this testimony that you personally
11 surrendered two rifles with your testimony today at line 17 and 18 of
12 page 57 where you said: "I'm quite sure they did not have any such
13 weapons. I could stake my life on it"?
14 A. What you say was returned was illegal. The police had
15 distributed these weapons to the reserve forces. The Muslims were still
16 in the reserve forces when Malko, after the attack on Renovica, ordered
17 all long-barrelled weapons to be returned. They were all returned and
18 that included these weapons that were distributed to the police. The
19 standard Muslim police force in Pale had been disbanded, and the two men
20 whose rifles and uniforms I said I returned, well, yes, I did do that.
21 They couldn't take them with them. They asked me whether I could return
22 them. I said I could and I returned them. I went to the police. The
23 legal weapons were most probably returned. There was nothing illegal
24 that was done.
25 Q. Am I correct then, sir, that the Muslim inhabitants, the males of
1 Pale municipality, retained the weapons that had been issued to them by
2 the JNA in 1991 and all this entire period up until now that we are
3 talking about, including up to the attack on Renovica?
4 JUDGE ORIE: Let me better understand. Earlier I heard about
5 police -- reserve police. In your question now it is JNA. Is that --
6 how do I have to?
7 MR. IVETIC: I apologise, Your Honours. I had stopped reading
8 from the quotation before we went to the end. The witness has talked
9 about the police and perhaps if I can -- let me -- let me first ask him
10 about the police and then we can finish the quotation and then ask him
11 about the others and it will become clearer.
12 Q. Sir, am I correct that the Muslim habitants, the males of Pale
13 municipality, retained the weapons that had been issued to them by the
14 police in 1991 and all the way up this entire period up until now,
15 including up until after the attack on Renovica?
16 A. I don't have any precise information as to when the reserve
17 policemen were mobilised. I don't have any precise information. But I
18 did see them when they went on patrol. They were wearing those winter
19 police uniforms, not the summer ones, and they had semi-automatic rifles
20 on them. I saw that myself. They didn't have to return these weapons to
21 the police because every day they were involved in carrying out checks of
22 some kind. When they were ordered to return the weapons, they returned
23 them. But as to when these weapons were issued, I don't know. I
24 couldn't say.
25 Q. Okay. And now if we could return to the segment from the
1 Karadzic trial, and we left off at line 13. I'd like to read from line
2 14 onwards and have you comment on that, sir. So again I will quote so
3 you can get the translation of what was said during that trial, starting
4 with line 14:
5 "Q. That was in keeping with the Tito's doctrine of armed
7 "A. Yes. I don't think how long they kept -- they got to keep
8 the uniforms and the equipment, I mean registered reserve policemen.
9 These were not distributed to other regular people. And when this
10 announcement came, some of these reserve policemen did not have the
11 courage to bring it in themselves to the police station.
12 "Q. I agree about the reserve policemen, but were you ever called
13 up to do an exercise as a military reservist?
14 "A. Yes.
15 "Q. At that time would you also take the uniform and sometimes
16 the weapon home?
17 "A. First of all, I could not drive an armoured vehicle back to
18 my home.
19 "Q. Yes, but infantrymen could take weapons home, couldn't they?
20 "A. Yes."
21 End of quotation. And we're now on page 1211 of that transcript.
22 Sir, do you recall this testimony from the Karadzic trial that
23 you participated in in, I believe, 2010.
24 A. I do.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi.
1 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I'd just like to clarify the record
2 regarding the previous line of questioning. Initially, Mr. Ivetic had
3 identified --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi.
5 MR. TRALDI: Yeah.
6 JUDGE ORIE: You may do so. You are not supposed to comment at
7 this moment, although I might have comment on some of the questions, but
8 you can do that in re-examination.
9 Mr. Ivetic.
10 MR. IVETIC: Yes. I apologise, Your Honour. You said you had a
11 comment on --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I wait for your next question and I might
13 comment then.
14 MR. IVETIC:
15 Q. Sir, with respect to this part of the Karadzic transcript and
16 your testimony, would you agree with me that it was possible for Muslim
17 males and also males of other ethnicities who had been called up for
18 exercises in Pale municipality to have been issued equipment, including
19 weapons and uniforms, and kept them this entire period, including up
20 until after the attack on Renovica village that we have discussed?
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I said just a minute ago --
23 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour, respectfully, the document that
24 Mr. Ivetic used to start this line of questioning is dated April 1992.
25 He has dated the attack in May 1992, and so I'm not sure why he thinks
1 this line of questioning is relevant to the attack on Renovica village.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Well, that's, again, comment.
3 Mr. Ivetic.
4 MR. IVETIC: To respond or?
5 JUDGE ORIE: No. You may proceed.
6 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
7 Q. Sir, can I get an answer to my question. For your sake let me
8 repeat it, sir.
9 With respect to this part of the Karadzic transcript and your
10 testimony, would you agree with me that it was possible for Muslim males
11 and also males of other ethnicities who had been called up for exercises
12 in Pale municipality to have been issued equipment, including weapons and
13 uniforms, and to have kept them this entire period including up until
14 after the attack on Renovica village that we have discussed?
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Crncalo, just to clarify, Mr. Ivetic is not
16 asking whether they took any weapons home but whether that was possible.
17 Could you please answer that question.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will. It wasn't possible because
19 at that time, at the time of the crisis, the Muslims did not receive any
20 call-up papers. No one tried to mobilise them.
21 MR. IVETIC:
22 Q. Were there scheduled exercises in 1990, 1991?
23 A. Not the usual military exercises. No such exercises had been
24 planned, as far as I know.
25 Q. Then where did these reserve policemen whose rifles you returned,
1 where did they get their weapons if they had not been mobilised and had
2 not been called for exercises?
3 A. Well, I have answered that question. And now you're asking me
4 about military weapons or whether the army distributed weapons. I
5 answered your question with regard to the police. The police mobilised
6 them and they were given weapons, the reservists were. But as for the
7 army, there was no attempt to mobilise the -- the Muslims.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, I'll now come with my comment.
9 You start a line of questioning, asking the witness that the
10 Bosnian Muslim population there had access not only to hunting and sport
11 guns but also to automatic rifles.
12 A few lines further down, you said:
13 "Would you agree with me that the Muslim males in Praca possessed
14 not only hunting and sport guns but also had access to automatic rifles."
15 And then you create an inconsistency with some people perhaps
16 having kept, due to the police service, having kept. That is misleading.
17 That is creating an inconsistency which doesn't exist yet. If you had
18 asked in the beginning: Are you aware whether any man had any such
19 weapon and what happened to those weapons, then you most likely would
20 have received the answers as the witness gives them now.
21 It takes an awful lot of time, you're confusing the witness, and
22 it's the third time today that the Chamber has to correct you on creating
23 non-existing contradictions. Please keep this in mind when you continue
24 your cross-examination.
25 MR. IVETIC: Sir, I must take exception because you are not
1 looking at page 57, line 2, where I asked specifically did proceed by
2 asking about the Bosnian Muslim population in Pale municipality generally
3 and asked him whether he agreed with the proposition. He then said he
4 wouldn't and then he started answering about Renovica, and then I went
5 specifically to Praca because the testamentary relates to Praca.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Where did you limit -- in paragraph 57? I put to
7 you --
8 MR. IVETIC: On page 57.
9 JUDGE ORIE: I beg your pardon. Page 57, line?
10 MR. IVETIC: We're asking about Praca. Line 2:
11 "I put it to you, sir, that in Pale municipality, specifically in
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Bosnian Muslim population, that is a broad
15 MR. IVETIC: In Praca.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is it your suggestion that all the Bosnian
17 Muslim population in Praca had access to or that individuals in Praca may
18 have had such weapons? That's not the same, Mr. Ivetic. I take it that
19 you're aware of that.
20 MR. IVETIC: I'm aware it's not the same. It's -- we're -- okay.
21 I stand corrected on that.
22 JUDGE ORIE: You don't -- please proceed.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 MR. IVETIC:
25 Q. Am I correct, sir, that the SDA leadership in Sarajevo explicitly
1 told Muslims of Pale and the rest of Bosnia not to respond to
2 mobilisation call-ups?
3 A. No one gave us that information. The then-authorities in the
4 municipality of Pale simply didn't send call-up papers to us, and we had
5 no contact with Sarajevo whatsoever.
6 Q. Were you aware of the SDA leadership in Sarajevo telling Bosnian
7 Muslims not to respond to the mobilisation call-ups -- or, pardon me.
8 Let's make it very simple: Are you aware of the SDA leadership in
9 Sarajevo explicitly telling everyone not to respond to the mobilisation
11 A. I am unaware of that.
12 Q. Can I offer to refresh your recollection by the fact that in two
13 trials before this Tribunal you have testified that you were aware of
14 that, including the Zupljanin transcript, the 21st of June, 2010,
15 transcript page 11997, lines 10 through 15, and the Krajisnik transcript,
16 2 September 2004, transcript page 5365 through 5366. Do I need to pull
17 them up, sir?
18 A. If you bear with me, I'll tell you. This is what I know.
19 Alija Izetbegovic suggested that the young men that were supposed to
20 serve their military term should not go. I don't know anything about the
21 entire -- the overall population.
22 Q. Okay. Well, let's see if we can move forward. Do you recall
23 that immediately before your arrest, there was an incident in Sarajevo
24 where Bosnian Muslim individuals had attacked a Serb wedding in Sarajevo?
25 A. Yes. That is how the media reported. In Stari Grad, a Serb
1 person was killed at a wedding, and everyone seemed to believe that.
2 However, when I was in Sarajevo inquiring about it, they said that there
3 were demonstrations taking place and that the person who was killed -- I
4 don't know if I can speak freely? That they were provoking.
5 Q. I'm not interested in the incident as I am in the time-period.
6 Keeping in mind when that time -- when that incident occurred, sir, and
7 perhaps -- well, let me do it the easy way. Let me call up your
8 testimony from the Krajisnik trial. T -- 1D284, page 5 in e-court. It
9 starts at line 11. Here it goes -- again, sir, I will read so you get
10 the translation:
11 "Q. I think what I asked you was whether you recall that. Are
12 you saying that at the time you didn't know anything about such matters?
13 "A. There were check-points towards Sarajevo and towards Pale,
14 but I myself didn't see what those people at the check-points in Sarajevo
15 did. I didn't go there so I can't say.
16 "Q. Were you aware that they were what might be rather crudely
17 referred to as 'Muslim check-points'?
18 "A. Yes they were."
19 Now, first, sir, I want to ask you, do you recall this testimony
20 that you gave in Krajisnik?
21 A. I do recall it well. When I was asked about that instance, I
22 wasn't able to recall things, and they asked me several times. Each time
23 I said I didn't know. Very well.
24 Q. First, before we get to that, are these check-points that you are
25 talking about in Krajisnik check-points that arose immediately after this
1 incident in Sarajevo where this wedding was attacked?
2 A. I can't say anything precisely about the check-points. I do know
3 that at one check-point people stopped coming through to work from
4 Sarajevo to Pale. That's the only check-point I can refer to.
5 Q. Okay. With respect to Pale itself, am I correct that as of
6 May 1992 there were many refugees coming to Pale from not only
7 surrounding villages but also from Sarajevo, such that there are about
8 15.000 refugees and the food supplies were said to be getting low?
9 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour, that's a compound question. Perhaps if
10 Mr. Ivetic could break it up so the witness can answer it.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic.
12 MR. IVETIC: Yes.
13 Q. Am I correct, sir, that with respect to Pale itself, as of
14 May 1992, there were many refugees coming to Pale not only from the
15 surrounding villages but also from Sarajevo?
16 A. Yes, they started coming.
17 Q. You were asked about -- well, strike that. Would you agree with
18 me that there were estimates that approximately 15.000 refugees, as of
19 May 1992, had come to Pale?
20 A. I would agree.
21 Q. And would you also agree that the food supplies in Pale were said
22 to be getting low because of this excess number of people that were in
24 A. I know that too.
25 Q. And would you also agree with me that the tensions in Pale, or
1 the rise in tensions in Pale, according to you, were in part -- were in
2 part arising from this large wave of refugees? If you understand the
3 question. If not, I will rephrase it by going to something you testified
4 about earlier.
5 A. Yes, of course we were afraid. People were coming. People we
6 didn't know. And they would say, I came from the front lines, I came
7 from combat, and he had hand-grenades around his belt, knives, weapons.
8 Of course we were afraid.
9 Q. And would you agree with me that during this period another
10 factor which you identify as contributing to the rise of tensions in Pale
11 was an attack performed by Muslims against Serbs in Zepa on the 4th of
12 June, 1992?
13 A. Muslims did not attack Serbs in Zepa. There were basically no
14 Serbs in Zepa. There was a column going from Sokolac to Zepa, and I
15 guess the people there defended themselves.
16 Q. You were asked about this in the Krajisnik trial, and am I
17 correct, sir, that you agreed, although you didn't know the actual
18 number, that a great number of Serb young men from Pale were killed in
19 this attack on a -- on a column passing by Zepa?
20 JUDGE ORIE: Transcript page, please, Mr. Ivetic.
21 MR. IVETIC: I apologise. The transcript page would be 5391
22 through 5392 in Krajisnik. It is 1D284, pages 8 through 9 in e-court,
23 if --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
25 MR. IVETIC: Starting at line -- line 10, I believe.
1 Q. And, now, sir, I apologise. Let me restate my question. Am I
2 correct, sir, that although you don't know the actual number, that a
3 great number of Serb young men from Pale were killed on this attack on a
4 column passing by Zepa.
5 A. I was in no position to learn about the numerical strength of
6 either those who were killed or the other side. I could -- I only knew
7 that there were helicopters used to communicate with Zepa, and -- but I
8 didn't know anything about numbers, and they used the helicopters for the
9 food and the wounded.
10 Q. Okay. Perhaps if I can direct your attention and let me read
11 this for you, sir, to be fair. This is line 13 of what is on the screen
12 through line 17. And again, it's a quotation from the Krajisnik trial:
13 "Q. And about 45 or about 45 soldiers were killed by Muslims in
14 that attack, weren't they?
15 "A. I don't know the number. I don't know how many people were
16 killed, those young men who were Serbs from Pale. But I do know that the
17 number was quite high."
18 Sir, does that refresh your recollection and am I correct that --
19 that this is what you testified to -- in the -- in the Krajisnik case.
20 A. Yes, I testified to that. And I repeated that I know there were
21 quite a few who were killed, but I don't know any specific figures.
22 Q. Okay. And during this time-period when tensions were high in
23 Pale, at paragraph 31 of your statement, you talk about certain
24 paramilitary criminals who you identify as not being in the army who were
25 going around and harassing people. I'd like to ask you, if you recall,
1 that during this time-period, the authorities in Pale, that is, the
2 police authorities and the army, undertook to disarm and arrest a group
3 of paramilitary criminals that had been in the Mali Dom who had been
4 harassing both Serbs and Muslims in Pale?
5 A. The traditional kind of mistreatment in private homes and
6 apartments was not present, but we were afraid the moment such an armed
7 person would show up.
8 Q. Do you have knowledge of the police and army authorities in Pale
9 arresting a group of criminals who had been -- operating near the Mali
10 Dom in Pale who had been harassing Serbs and Muslims in Pale during this
11 period when tensions were high?
12 A. This name, Mali Dom, is not familiar to me. There is a so-called
13 Turisticki Dom that I know but that's far from me, the other end of Pale.
14 I couldn't possibly know what was going on there. And I don't know why
15 you call these men criminals. I know exactly what a criminal is. This
16 thing that was happening in Pale was something entirely different. No
17 question of criminals.
18 Q. Do you have knowledge or not of a large group of individuals that
19 were arrested and disarmed by the authorities of Pale during this
20 time-period for harassing Muslims and Serbs in the municipality?
21 JUDGE ORIE: Let's first try to split it up. Are you aware of
22 people being arrested at that time apparently on suspicion of having
23 arrest Serbs and Muslims? Do you know whether people were arrested?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't know.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
1 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
2 Q. Do you recall the situation with Agan Kadaric [phoen] and his
3 wife whose jewellery had been stolen by a certain of these persons you
4 identify as paramilitaries, and that the police were able to get this
5 jewellery back and returned it to Ms. Kadaric?
6 A. I know about that. And, yes, it happened the way you say. The
7 jewellery was stolen but the police found out somehow, caught those
8 people, and the jewellery was returned.
9 Q. And if we could just briefly look at 1D283. This is a proofing
10 note. And I believe the -- the bottom paragraph, the last paragraph on
11 the page, talks about this incident. And also talks -- says here, sir,
12 and I'm reading from the bottom of the proofing note:
13 "On another occasion, one person was removed from his flat. He
14 complained and was allowed to return."
15 Sir, is this another incident where these persons you identify as
16 paramilitaries harassed individuals and the authorities -- the police
17 authorities apprehended these paramilitaries and returned the rightful
18 owner to his flat in Pale?
19 JUDGE ORIE: Let's first ask the witness whether he has any
20 knowledge about the incident before we ask him to comment on documents.
21 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, this is a proofing note of the
22 interview with the Office of the Prosecutor and this witness.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you're right. Let me see. Yes, I missed that.
24 Apologies for that.
25 Could you answer the question, Witness?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I know that person. His name
2 is Nasko Smajic. He was arrested, and I'm not sure if he spent the night
3 in custody, and then he was released. But then the police caught up with
4 him and somebody set him up, put a rifle that we called the Gypsy, and he
5 was found with it, and he was taken in again, and he never came out of
6 the police station alive again.
7 MR. IVETIC:
8 Q. Okay. We have your testimony. I'd like to now move to discuss
9 the exchange of residence that you undertook and which is discussed at
10 page 61 through 63 of your statement, which is Exhibit P260.
11 MR. IVETIC: For e-court, it's page 11 in English and pages 20 to
12 21 in the B/C/S.
13 Q. And herein you describe the transfer of your house to an
14 individual named Ms. Dragica Subotic. First of all, with respect to
15 paragraph 61 of your statement, I put it to you that paragraph 61 is not
16 entirely accurate because this paragraph does not identify that you
17 actually co-owned your home with your brother, Taib. Am I correct?
18 A. No, you're not correct. We were owners of the building 2/1. It
19 was in the land register and it also verified by a court.
20 JUDGE ORIE: You say "we."
21 Did you mean you and your brother or?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. My brother and I. I
23 mean to say that the two of us were owners of that house.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you were both living in it?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Both. We shared it. We lived in
1 one part of the house, each.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 MR. IVETIC: Thank you. If we can call up 65 ter number 03727,
4 and I apologise, Your Honours, by my notes this was not tendered as an
5 associated exhibit, although it is I believe referenced in the -- in the
6 statement. So I apologise if there's a P number that I have somehow
7 missed. But by my notes, it was not tendered.
8 Q. So while we wait for 65 ter 03727, sir, can you look on the
9 screen. Does this appear to be the contract that you signed, along with
10 your brother and Ms. Subotic, in relation to your home?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And if we could scroll down to the signatures. Does that appear
13 to have the signatures of all persons concerned?
14 A. Yes, they're there.
15 Q. I'd like to direct your attention to part IV of this contract,
16 wherein it states:
17 "The contracting parties hereby undertake that the use and
18 looking after ... the property under contract shall be temporary and
19 shall last until the war eases and the conditions for normal life are
20 achieved, at which time the final status of the property under contract
21 shall be resolved by agreement with the mandatory consent of the
22 contracting parties."
23 Sir, this contract does not, in fact, transfer ownership but
24 envisions the right to use of property that shall be temporary until the
25 war conditions are over; isn't that correct?
1 A. Look at the date on this document. On the same day, after
2 2.00 p.m., I found myself on the way to Sarajevo on a bus. I had no time
3 to think anything over. I was going straight from there to the bus. And
4 this was a very important document. It was important to Dragica Subotic,
5 so that she can take -- get into the house. It didn't matter to me.
6 There you are, here I am. I want to swap something with you, and you are
7 taking in exchange something you have never seen and you have to agree to
8 it. I had no opportunity to see that property, and, of course, I wasn't
9 leaving my house of my own will. I had to.
10 Q. We'll get to all of that.
11 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, at this time I would tender this
12 document as the next available D exhibit before moving onto the next
13 Prosecution document that I'd like to show this witness.
14 MR. TRALDI: No objection, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: No objection.
16 Mr. Registrar, the number would be.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter number 03727 shall be
18 assigned Exhibit D54. Thank you.
19 MR. IVETIC: If we could --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. ... I'm trying to understand why we have to
21 establish that this is not transfer of ownership.
22 MR. IVETIC: Because the witness's statement in paragraphs 61
23 through 63. First of all, the heading says "Forcible Transfer of Muslim
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 MR. IVETIC: Okay. And in paragraphs --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Isn't it true that property is transferred not
3 ownership by property?
4 MR. IVETIC: And in paragraph --
5 JUDGE ORIE: The contracting parties shall take possession of the
6 property under contract. That is, therefore, a transfer of property.
7 And it says nowhere in 61 or 62, it's not even suggested, that ownership
8 is transferred. Even the witness is quite clear on that. Some kind of a
10 So apart, of course, what is the core of the testimony of the
11 witness, that he was not free to -- not to sign, that he was under such
12 circumstances that he was -- he couldn't do anything else. Now you are
13 focussing on what seems to be an issue which is relatively marginal in
14 this whole matter, because it's not about the formal aspect of ownership.
15 And apart from that, you are telling me that this is about ownership and
16 you're correcting something which is not contained in the statement. Or
17 do I misread the statement?
18 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I read the statement and again I'm
19 perhaps --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then tell me where the transfer of ownership
21 is mentioned in paragraph 61 and 62.
22 MR. IVETIC: 62. 62. "I did not give up my house voluntarily.
23 They were not voluntarily surrendering their property and none of us
24 voluntarily surrendered our property." And again, I am coloured by the
25 fact that I have the witness's testimony in three other trials where the
1 insinuation was made that this was a transfer of ownership.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. We'll check that, then. But at least to the
3 extent you told me that this is what the document says, you would agree
4 with me that the document is talking about the transfer of property and
5 that is the language the witness used at least in his statement, and that
6 no mention is made in any way of ownership. But if there are other
7 matters, then you should have taken the witness to those parts of the
8 testimony where ownership is dealt with. Here it is not. At least --
9 unless you tell me where to find it. And we all know that property and
10 ownership is not the same, isn't is it?
11 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.
13 MR. IVETIC:
14 Q. Sir, did you consider this as a contract whereby you were being
15 forced to give up ownership of your property?
16 A. You're asking me now to comment on legal aspects. I'm only
17 saying that I was forced to sign that contract. Now about ownership and
18 property and things likes that, are not something I can speak about.
19 Q. Fair enough. With regard to paragraph 61 of your statement, you
20 discuss the negotiations with Ms. Subotic to transfer your house
21 temporarily to her. I'd like to ask you: Is it correct that you
22 undertook these negotiations with Ms. Subotic or was it, in fact, your
23 brother who undertook all of these discussions with Ms. Subotic?
24 A. My brother talked to Dragica Subotic, and I honoured my brother,
25 even though he is dead now, and I did not contradict him. But if it had
1 been up to me, I don't know how it would have ended. It may be that I
2 would not have survived the war but I would surely not leave my house.
3 Q. Am I correct that your late brother basically ran this whole
4 business about the exchange and that you had very little to do with it,
5 apart from signing your name on the document?
6 A. None of us had any time. It all happened on the same day when we
7 had to leave the house. We didn't have time to discuss anything and what
8 to do and what is best. We could see what was going on around us and we
9 thought we needed to save our heads.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Crncalo, were you present when your brother
11 spoke, your late brother, spoke to -- to Dragica Subotic?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not the first part of their
13 discussions, I wasn't present. I joined them when they had already
14 almost agreed.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Now, if you still remember, at what time in the day
16 you left from Pale?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it was 2.00 p.m.
18 JUDGE ORIE: At what time - to the extent you remember - did
19 Dragica Subotic come to you?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] She didn't actually come to see me
21 at all. My late wife told me, There's a woman calling on your brother.
22 It could have been 11.00 a.m. when I found out about that.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Did you or your brother have known her before she
24 then came to your house?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, we didn't know her. Nobody
1 knew her before.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Now, once you signed, you would be aware of the
3 existence of Dragica Subotic for two hours, approximately, or a little
4 bit over two hours? Is that correctly understood?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not earlier than that. I had known
6 her for about two or three hours before I left my house.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
8 MR. IVETIC:
9 Q. You say you had known her for two or three hours. Is it correct
10 that your brother met with her the day before and discussed the
11 transfer -- temporary transfer of the property?
12 A. No, no.
13 Q. Okay.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Crncalo, do you positively know that she did not
15 come the day before or are you not aware that she may have come the day
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I suppose my brother would have
18 told me for sure if he had -- if she had come the day before. I can't
19 say that she had visited earlier than I saw her.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
21 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic. I'm looking also looking at the
22 clock, Mr. Ivetic. How much time would you still need?
23 MR. IVETIC: I need at least five to seven minutes to finish up
24 with this line of questioning, which was to be my --
25 JUDGE ORIE: And after that?
1 MR. IVETIC: Which was to be my last. I apologise.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I suggest that you finish in the next
3 seven minutes and that we take the break slightly later than we usually
5 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 MR. IVETIC:
8 Q. And this Subotic family, am I correct that this lady and her son
9 did not prevent you from taking anything from the home that you wished?
10 A. They did not. But what was I supposed to carry? On my back or
11 where? I could take only what I could carry in my two hands onto the
13 Q. Am I correct, sir, that you did, in fact, get possession of your
14 home back in 2002 and everything there was still intact and preserved?
15 A. I got the house back, but I didn't find anything inside. No
16 furniture. And there are still traces of the axe that was used to get
17 the floorboards off. And all the shelves and everything we had from --
18 from floor to ceiling, that was all gone. I -- I did get the house back,
20 Q. Do you recall meeting the son, Mr. Miro Subotic, who was present
21 during the signing of the contract that his mother signed?
22 A. His mother introduced him. We only met at the municipality, in
23 the municipal building.
24 MR. IVETIC: If we can call up 1D292. This is a statement given
25 by Miro Subotic to the Karadzic Defence team that was disclosed to us by
1 the Office of the Prosecutor on the EDS system, and I would like to ask
2 for the witness's comment on some items on page 3.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, do you intend to tender this or to --
4 otherwise you could read from it because it might be not in line with
5 Rule 92 bis or ter to use it in evidence, so if you want read a portion
6 of it and then have it marked for identification that would be the most
8 MR. IVETIC: I was even just going to read it but have it up on
9 the screen so people could follow, so that the court reporters and
10 translators can have an easier time keeping up with me.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 MR. IVETIC: Obviously I'm only interested in what the witness
13 knows or does not know about these items. This is on page 3 at the top
14 in the B/C/S and the bottom of page 2 in the English. And the
15 paragraph I would like to start with is the third from the bottom.
16 Q. And, sir, I will read for you since I do see that this -- that
17 the B/C/S version is in Cyrillic and I do not know whether you can read
19 "The brothers, Taib and Sulejman, together with a large group of
20 their countrymen, left Pale in an organised fashion in a bus convoy,
21 probably on the same day. They all left voluntarily, based on their own
22 requests [sic] and without any kind of harassment.
23 "I personally helped Taib and Sulejman carry their things to the
24 bus. We parted on friendly terms, and Sulejman's allegations which I
25 have become acquainted with, that someone threatened them and forced them
1 out of their house, are not true."
2 First of all, sir, is it correct that Mr. Subotic and the Subotic
3 family assisted you and your brother in carrying things to the bus?
4 A. Miro is not fair and he is not sincere. He didn't help me and I
5 don't think he helped my brother. They did come to check whether we
6 were, indeed, going to board the buses for Sarajevo.
7 Q. And I'm now going to ask you about the entirety of these two
8 paragraphs that I read to you from this statement of Mr. Subotic. Do
9 you -- do you agree that they accurately reflect the situation or not?
10 That is, do you agree with it or do you take issue with it?
11 JUDGE ORIE: With what, exactly?
12 MR. IVETIC: These two paragraphs.
13 JUDGE ORIE: There's a lot in these two paragraphs.
14 MR. IVETIC: Well, the entirety. Do they accurately reflect the
15 events that transpired or not, whether --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, you've asked many questions -- many
17 questions were asked about the subjects covered by these where the
18 witness clearly said he did not agree. So therefore to ask him now to
19 agree on the whole of it seems to be not --
20 MR. IVETIC: I'm not asking -- I'm asking whether he takes issue
21 with the entirety of it, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: The two paragraphs, you mean?
23 MR. IVETIC: The third from the bottom and the second --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Again, the one starting with --
25 MR. IVETIC: "The brothers Taib and Sulejman ..."
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think you already testified that you -- that
2 you were not helped by Miro carrying their things to the bus, isn't it?
3 Now --
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Did you -- did you part on friendly terms with this
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We did not. They did watch us
8 board the buses, but ...
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do you agree that you were not threatened and
10 forced to leave the house?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They didn't drive us out, but they
12 did hurry us along.
13 JUDGE ORIE: You mean they, the mother and the son did not drive
14 you out. But I did understand your testimony to be that -- that you were
15 forced not by these persons but you were forced out of the -- of Pale.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct. I was forced by
17 the Serbian Democratic Party and by Koljevic himself who stated, Serbs
18 won't live with the Muslims together in Pale. What else is necessary?
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I have one more question for you.
20 You -- you got the house back, you said, a few years after the
21 war. I think you said 2002. Do you remember -- how did you get it back?
22 Was it voluntarily transferred to you, or did you have to go to court for
23 it or?
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, when I submitted an
1 application to recover my house, there was some international
2 non-governmental organisation at work, they were involved, and I went
3 through them. They went to the municipality to get some documents to
4 check that we were indeed the owners, Sulejman and Taib, and based on
5 those documents they realised we were indeed the owners, and then they
6 started proceedings to recover the house for us. But there was this
7 international CRPC organisation.
8 JUDGE ORIE: It was not that Mrs. Subotic voluntarily left the
9 house and returned it to you, you had to go to court. Do I understand
10 you well?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't go to court myself. It is
12 very likely that the CRPC people did. Dragica, may she rest in peace,
13 died before I succeeded in getting the house back.
14 JUDGE ORIE: But she remained living in the house when you had
15 started the -- or when the court proceedings had started?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. She died before the procedure
17 of return was set in motion. Two of her sons, Miro and Zoran, were in
18 the house.
19 JUDGE ORIE: They continued to live there when proceedings were
20 started. Is that correctly understood?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
23 We are beyond the time where we usually take the break.
24 Mr. Ivetic, how much time would you still -- how many questions
25 would you still have, I would say, because I think after six out of the
1 seven minutes you said you would needed I intervened which would leave
2 you one minute. Is that --
3 MR. IVETIC: I have five questions, Your Honours, including one
4 citation from this -- from this statement of Mr. Subotic that goes into
5 some of the matters that Your Honour has raised.
6 JUDGE ORIE: I think we first have to take a break.
7 MR. IVETIC: Okay.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE ORIE: But could the witness first leave the courtroom.
10 [The witness stands down]
11 JUDGE ORIE: We'll resume at ten minutes to 2.00. And for the
12 five questions, you have five minutes, Mr. Ivetic.
13 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
14 --- Recess taken at 1.33 p.m.
15 --- On resuming at 1.52 p.m.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
17 [The witness takes the stand]
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, you may proceed. You've got five
19 minutes for your last questions.
20 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
21 Q. Sir, the Subotic family, just to be clear, they were Serb
22 refugees who had been expelled from their home in the Pofalici
23 neighbourhood of Sarajevo by armed Muslims; is that correct?
24 A. I don't know what had happened to them. I just know they showed
25 up at Pale. I don't know how they left the city. I can't comment on
1 that, and they didn't mention it to me.
2 Q. I'd like to return to the statement by Mr. Miro Subotic, and I'd
3 like to skip to the next page in English, whereas on the B/C/S it's still
4 on the same page just skipping one paragraph, and I read the
5 paragraph that begins at the top. So it's page 3 in the English:
6 "I left the house owned by the Crncalo brothers in the presence
7 of representatives of the Commissariat for Refugees and Displaced Persons
8 of the municipality of Pale. On that occasion a report was drafted which
9 clearly shows that the house was returned in good condition. My brother
10 and I even added a fence on the balcony which was not there before and
11 did that at our own expense. That is when I gave the representatives of
12 the Commissariat the house key, which was reported in the inventory.
13 Hence, my family and I, my brother's family, and my late mother abided by
14 all six provisions in the contract on exchange signed by us and the
15 brothers Taib and Sulejman Crncalo."
16 Is it correct that you received a report from the Commissariat
17 for Refugees and Displaced Persons and an inventory relating to the
18 condition of the property when it was returned to you in 2003, I believe?
19 A. I was prohibited from being present when the key was handed over.
20 The report was drafted by a person from the Commissariat and it was
21 drafted only once I arrived at the house with that person. Miro never
22 even jokingly mentioned my car, let alone returned it. It was a Fiat
23 125P and it had only 33 kilometres on the clock. It was almost new --
24 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: 33.000 kilometres on
25 the clock.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In any case, he didn't even need to
2 return it. I'm just happy to be alive.
3 MR. IVETIC:
4 Q. If I can now turn to the convoy after this. Am I correct, sir --
5 or strike that. I have information that the convoy was arranged by a
6 Bosnian Muslim SDA official with the authorities and that the
7 individual's name is Mr. Ahmed Palo who is the vice-president of the Pale
8 municipality before the war. Do you know anything about this?
9 A. Ahmed's last name is Palo. On paper, he was deputy head of
10 municipality, but as for his ability to organise such a convoy, well, he
11 lived some 20-plus kilometres away from the Pale municipality towards the
12 east. He had no access to the centre of Pale so as to able to organise
13 any convoys. It was organised by the SDS. No one else.
14 Q. Okay. I understand your testimony. We will check up on that.
15 Now, with respect to the convoy that was under the police escort, as I
16 believe you had identified in your statement, am I correct that the
17 entire convoy was able to travel over to the demarcation line between the
18 warring factions and that everyone arrived in Sarajevo without suffering
19 any harassment or any injuries. Is that accurate?
20 A. That is correct. No one touched us. We arrived at a location at
21 Zeca Glava, and then we had to go down to the city on foot.
22 Q. Thank you, sir. I thank you for your answers.
23 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I don't have any further questions at
24 this time.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Any need for re-examination?
1 MR. TRALDI: Just briefly, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
3 Re-examination by Mr. Traldi:
4 Q. Mr. Crncalo, Mr. Ivetic just read you at temporary transcript
5 page 85 a portion of Miro Subotic's statement discussing the condition of
6 the properties you had exchanged. Can you describe for the Chamber the
7 condition of the property in Sarajevo which the Subotics had left when
8 you arrived?
9 A. I can. I was provided an address, a street and house number.
10 Once I arrived there with my bags, I wanted to get in, but more than half
11 of the house was gone. It was destroyed by a shell. If it had been in
12 good condition -- a fortnight later, another two shells landed and it
13 wouldn't have amounted to much anyhow. Had I been in the house at that
14 moment, I would have died too. In any case, once I approached the house
15 for the first time, I realised that half of it was gone, blown up by a
17 Q. And were you able to stay there?
18 A. I couldn't. There was no way. There was nowhere to stay.
19 Q. Next, sir, Mr. Ivetic inquired with you about conflict in Pale
20 municipality. Were the people in your convoy who you stated were forced
21 to leave Pale, were they fighting then?
22 A. There were people like myself with wives and children, with their
23 luggage. It wasn't much to look at. One couldn't even think they were
24 fighters. If they were fighters, they would have been arrested, taken
25 away to the police or elsewhere.
1 Q. And finally, sir, when you found yourself in the Sarajevo morgue
2 on 28 August 1995, you said you saw several people there who had passed
3 away. Were any of those people wearing military uniforms?
4 A. They were all women. There was seven bodies of women lying next
5 to each other. What sort of uniform? There were no uniforms.
6 Q. Thank you, sir.
7 MR. TRALDI: And that concludes my re-direct.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, is my recollection right that state in
9 which the witness found the house in Sarajevo already appears in the
10 statement, that it was hit by a shell and that it --
11 MR. TRALDI: It's briefly discussed in paragraph 61, Your Honour,
12 in P260.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Apparently you didn't elicit any further
14 evidence on the matter, so therefore I wonder whether it was needed at
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber has no further questions.
18 Mr. Ivetic, have the questions in re-examination triggered any
19 need for further questions?
20 MR. IVETIC: They have not, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Crncalo, this concludes your evidence in
22 this court. I would like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague
23 and for having answered all the questions that were put to you, both by
24 the parties and by the Bench, and I wish you a safe return home again.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you for allowing
1 me to tell the truth.
2 [The witness withdrew]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, the first thing I'd like to do is decide
4 on the admission of D54, that is the -- that is admitted into evidence
5 because there were no objections from the Defence.
6 Anything other matter you would like to raise?
7 MR. TRALDI: Yes, Your Honour. Two brief matters regarding
8 exhibits. First, regarding Exhibit P260, Mr. Crncalo's statement,
9 Mr. Ivetic cross-examined the witness at length about some of the
10 redacted paragraphs from the statement, specifically paragraphs 13 and
11 14. We would seek leave to replace Exhibit P260 with an unredacted
12 version as a result.
13 MR. IVETIC: No objection.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Totally unredacted or to remove the redactions of
15 those paragraphs?
16 MR. TRALDI: Those two paragraphs, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So that's paragraphs 13 and 13 are then --
18 what did you say to? No, 13 and 14 are --
19 Mr. Ivetic.
20 MR. IVETIC: No objection, Your Honour. And you'll see that
21 that's where my questions came from.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then leave is granted that the -- that P260,
23 the witness's statement, is replaced by a new version in which the
24 paragraphs 13 and 14 are not further redacted. Are not redacted, I
25 should say.
1 Any other matter?
2 MR. TRALDI: There was one more matter regarding exhibits,
3 Your Honour.
4 Regarding Mr. Seselj's speech on 6 May 1991 which the Chamber
5 inquired about and which was the subject of many of Mr. Ivetic's
6 questions, we have located the video and transcripts on our exhibit list,
7 65 ter 22719A. And I'd invite Mr. Ivetic and the Defence to review those
8 with a view to agreeing on admission of the exhibit.
9 JUDGE ORIE: When do we hear from you?
10 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, if we could perhaps have the weekend we
11 can take a look at that.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. After the weekend we hear from you. If you
13 agree, then of course the Chamber leaves it in your hands who will tender
14 that. If not, the Chamber will consider whether it will instruct one of
15 the parties to call it. But we'll first then think about it.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi.
18 MR. TRALDI: With those brief matters having been addressed, Your
19 Honour, I just seek to be excused.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you are excused.
21 Mr. Groome, I know that you --
22 Yes, Mr. Lukic. Now -- I know -- let me first address you,
23 Mr. Groome.
24 I know that you do not have the half-hour which you intended to
25 take. Is there any way of briefing the Chamber already in limited time
1 and then perhaps summarise what you wanted to say and then have the
2 remainder be submitted in writing or is there any -- I'm trying to find a
3 practical solution for --
4 MR. GROOME: I have actually a practical solution for the use of
5 the remaining time, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 MR. GROOME: There was another report that the Chamber requested
8 for today, and that was -- you requested it last Friday at transcript
9 page 2858, and if you recall that has to do with the videotape, and you
10 had asked Mr. Ivetic -- or you gave the Defence until today to report on
11 their position. We did provide the Defence with our preliminary analysis
12 as we had said that we would, and I've asked Ms. Bibles to come into the
13 Chamber so we are prepared to deal with that, and I think that matter
14 probably will fit within the time available remaining.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If that is the case, are you -- any suggestion
16 that you would submit in writing what you wanted to say about the other
17 matter for which you needed half an hour? The Chamber noticed that often
18 you have prepared your submissions often in writing. Is there any way
19 that we could speed up without losing time with witnesses on that matter?
20 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I do do that to try to make sure that I
21 say it as briefly as possible. Given everything that I'm trying
22 accomplish these day, I'd appreciate just the opportunity to make -- to
23 have this discussion with the Chamber and to not engage in a lengthy
24 submission and counter-submission process. I think this is just some
25 very -- very practical matters of guidance I'm seeking from the Chamber,
1 and I think once the Chamber hears it, it's a matter that can move
2 forward very quickly after that.
3 And perhaps, Your Honour, I can say in a sentence essentially
4 what I'll be seeking is we are filing a bar table motion with respect to
5 the intercepts, and if I can give the Chamber all of the references on
6 Monday where you've authorised us to do that, we'll file that Monday, and
7 I believe that will be 19 witnesses if the Chamber were to grant all of
8 the relief we sought. I'm also filing on Monday a notice of witnesses we
9 may not call and that will be about 30 witnesses.
10 So one of the things I am seeking the Chamber's guidance on: If
11 we can suspend 92 bis applications on those two groups of witnesses,
12 approximately 50 witnesses, until such time a little further down in the
13 process and prioritise our time on the -- the remaining. And with
14 respect to the remaining, the pace that we're filing them is set by the
15 Chamber's guidance. We are seeking the ability to file them as soon as
16 we have them done, recognising that that's a lot to ask the Defence to
17 respond to in 14 days, but we feel that once they're before the Chamber
18 and before the Defence they can decide how best to use their resources,
19 and we would not oppose any application under 127 for an amendment of the
20 time-period for them to respond.
21 And I guess that, in a nutshell, was my submission.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome we leave it to that at this very moment
1 Mr. Lukic.
2 MR. LUKIC: Just two brief things, Your Honour.
3 First, the Prosecution filed a motion for additional protective
4 measures for the Witness 081 and since it's an urgent matter we don't
5 object to this motion, so we don't have to go through the process.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you very much for that because that was
7 on my list as well. It was only yesterday, I think, that the Prosecution
8 filed that motion for augmentation. And it's not the first time,
9 Mr. Groome, that such motions are filed at a time which - as I have it on
10 my list - doesn't give the Defence sufficient time to respond. So you're
11 invited to avoid in the future to have such late notice.
12 And yesterday you said, Mr. Lukic, you were saved by the bell --
13 MR. LUKIC: The bell, yes.
14 JUDGE ORIE: -- and I think Mr. Groome is saved by your bell at
15 this moment.
16 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, just so it's clear, that's a witness
17 that we were trying to advance so that we make full use of the time. If
18 you remember earlier today, it was only today that we decided that we
19 would call that witness. We were simply trying to give everyone as much
20 notice as possible.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not dramatically blaming you for it, but of
22 course the Chamber is always a bit concerned if it receives motions where
23 proper time for a Defence response seems to -- not to be there.
24 Thank you, nevertheless, Mr. Lukic, for your quick response.
25 Next matter you would like to raise.
1 MR. LUKIC: Yes. I discussed during the break with Mr. Groome
2 the issue of acceptance of the 65 ter document 28432. That's the -- the
3 list with documents. And I think that I explained to Mr. Groome why --
4 what was my confusion, and he agreed to tender the same documents through
5 the same list with the Witness 511.
6 So for now we are safe.
7 JUDGE ORIE: So the comments are there, the chart is there --
8 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: -- and the underlying documents will be tendered at
10 later stage?
11 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
12 MR. GROOME: Yes. That's roughly it.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber appreciates that the parties
14 agreed on that.
15 Ms. Bibles, about the video. We do not have much time, but
16 perhaps you could give it a start.
17 MS. BIBLES: Thank you, Your Honours. As you can see I have no
18 prepared comments. We simply wanted to request whether the Defence was
19 going to answer the question posed last week. I think it was about
20 the -- basically about the reliability of the video D43 simply to
21 determine whether we do need to proceed with the formal forensic
23 Thank you.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just think about D43, which was the?
25 MR. IVETIC: If I can help, it was the excerpt --
1 JUDGE ORIE: The one video, the excerpt from -- was that the --
2 the journey to Omarska arriving from the south rather than from the
3 north, to Omarska?
4 MR. IVETIC: Correct, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 MR. IVETIC: And I believe at the -- at the end of that session
7 we'd looked at another videotape that -- it appeared to be from the same
8 angle, and I said I believe it looks to be the same angle. The videotape
9 we used we downloaded from the source and did not alter, so it's what it
10 is. But then after all this questioning, the witness then clarified and
11 said that this all occurred after he heard the shooting. So it kind of
12 made the whole thing moot because in answers to cross-examination he'd
13 said that this was the time period when the shooting occurred but then he
14 testified later that this was all after the shooting had concluded.
15 So I leave it to Your Honours -- or to the Prosecution as to do
16 with that -- with that exhibit. We presented it in good faith based upon
17 the original of that video which -- that was given to the Prosecution in
18 full. So the excerpt that we showed was the actual video as we received
20 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just try to -- we had a video, we then had a
21 video with and without sound, and we had a competing video with different
23 MR. IVETIC: Correct.
24 JUDGE ORIE: I think the main concern was about the competing
25 video with the different sound.
1 MR. IVETIC: That's correct.
2 JUDGE ORIE: And that was -- was that D43?
3 MR. IVETIC: That was D43 as I recall, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 MR. IVETIC: And you had asked if the competing video that was
6 shown in re-direct, whether it appeared to be the same camera angle, and
7 I believe it does appear to be the same camera angle. That's all I can
8 say. I can't go beyond that.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Isn't it true that there was more that the
10 Prosecution wanted to also to investigate whether the sound was tampered
12 MS. BIBLES: Yes, Your Honour. That was the issue that we
13 posited to the Court.
14 If I'm understanding Defence counsel, he is suggesting that he
15 downloaded the video D43, and I'm guessing it was from the web site that
16 was featured prominently on the video itself, and I simply would ask if
17 Defence is indicating that they are no longer positing that as a
18 reliable -- at least audio track, with respect to that, and I think that
19 would bring the issue to a halt.
20 MR. IVETIC: With respect to D43, absolutely.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber will consider whether or not it
22 accepts this as a solution to the matter raised and we will let you know.
23 We then adjourn for the day, with apologies for the late
24 adjournment, and we will resume - let me just check - Monday, is that the
25 1st of October, I think. Monday, the 1st of October, at 9.30 in the
1 morning, in this same courtroom, I.
2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.19 p.m.,
3 to be reconvened on Monday, the 1st day of October,
4 2012, at 9.30 a.m.