121002IT

Page 3412

1 I was injured. I cannot say exactly. You know, those were very

2 difficult circumstances. For five days you'd have electricity and then

3 you could hear something, and then you would not have any electricity and

4 then you couldn't hear anything. And then you'd have electricity again

5 for another two hours. So, quite simply, you lose all sense of time,

6 whether five, ten, or 15 days had elapsed. So I cannot tell you exactly

7 how much time had gone by after I had heard that broadcast for the first

8 time.

9 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Your Honours, as I said, it was -- I only had a

10 few questions for Ms. Tarcin.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

12 MS. HOCHHAUSER: And that concludes my examination.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Hochhauser.

14 Ms. Tarcin, you will now be cross-examined by Mr. Ivetic.

15 Mr. Ivetic is counsel for Mr. Mladic. And if you only testified only

16 very shortly, have answered only a few questions put to you by the

17 Prosecution, of course the Chamber has read your statement so there's

18 more than what you told us this morning.

19 Mr. Ivetic will now cross-examine you.

20 Mr. Ivetic, please proceed.

21 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

22 Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic:

23 Q. Good day, ma'am. I would first ask that you try to pay attention

24 to my questions and try to ensure that the answer you give is the most

25 focused answer possible for my questions, and that way we will get

Page 3413

1 through this as quickly as possible. Is that understood?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Okay. Now, first I'd like to go into some background issues.

4 Were any members of your family taking part in the fighting as members of

5 any armed force at any time prior to the 28th or the 29th of May, 1992?

6 A. No, not in the fighting. But I can say that at the time in

7 different neighbourhoods there were guards unarmed, as a rule, and quite

8 simply during the night they were on duty there in the street. If

9 something unexpected happened, then they could inform other people, but

10 at that point in time they were not [Realtime transcript read in error

11 "in the"] armed.

12 Q. Did you at that time, as a 16-year-old girl, have any knowledge

13 of the front lines; that is to say, where the warring forces were located

14 and fighting with one another?

15 A. I did not know then where the lines were exactly. We knew that

16 the area where I -- I mean, the area where I live is hilly, so we knew

17 that the fighting was taking place above our houses, or rather, that the

18 lines were above our houses, but I didn't know exactly where.

19 Q. In the time-period prior to 28/29 May 1992, did you have occasion

20 to ever eye-witness or see the front line positions so as to know their

21 location?

22 A. No.

23 Q. When the fighting started, did you have a chance to go outside

24 and walk around the neighbourhood of Sirokaca or did you primarily stay

25 at home, indoors?

Page 3414

1 A. I stayed at home most of the time, and if I went out it was only

2 within 200 or 300 metres around the house.

3 Q. In the weeks leading up to 28/29 May 1992, did you have occasion

4 to go to school or had classes been interrupted by the situation?

5 A. I didn't go to school. Schools were not working; they stopped

6 already in April. So in that period of time, we did not go to school.

7 Q. Thank you. Now, you've identified for us that if you did go out

8 you usually only stayed approximately 200 metres or 300 metres around the

9 house. Could you please tell us, using any type of measurement or

10 parameter that you can, approximately how expansive is the entire

11 neighbourhood of Sirokaca; that is to say, how big is it geographically?

12 A. I cannot tell you exactly in terms of kilometres. The area that

13 we call Sirokaca is not an administrative unit. There is, actually, an

14 administrative unit of Sirokaca, but it basically denotes a broader area,

15 broader than the administrative unit, that is. It is possible that the

16 diameter is 2 or 3 kilometres, but I wouldn't be able to say that for

17 sure.

18 Q. That's fair enough. Did you ever have a chance to venture

19 outside of Sirokaca to go to other parts such as Bistrik or Stari Grad in

20 May of 1992 or the weeks prior to May of 1992?

21 JUDGE ORIE: Is that within 2- or 300 metres, the areas you're

22 referring to, because the witness said she never went out any further

23 than 2- or 300 metres. Now, if Bistrik or Stari Grad is within 2- or 300

24 metres --

25 MR. IVETIC: Well, I'm trying to find out, Your Honour, which

Page 3415

1 part of Sirokaca she's at. I don't know myself. Personally, I've never

2 been to --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Where have you never been?

4 MR. IVETIC: To Sirokaca.

5 JUDGE ORIE: But you know on a map where it is, I take it.

6 MR. IVETIC: Approximately, yes. I understand that Bistrik is

7 right there, but you could have --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Is that within 2- or 300 metres?

9 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I don't know. They are adjoining

10 areas. So it's possible that a person could be 200 metres from the

11 neighbouring area, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Did you ever go to Bistrik or Stari Grad?

13 And I'll check it on the map, Mr. --

14 Witness, could you tell us whether in those weeks just before the

15 event, whether you ever went to Bistrik or Stari Grad?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I can remember, no.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

18 MR. IVETIC: Okay.

19 Q. In the occasions when you walked around 200 to 300 metres around

20 your home, did you ever have occasion to eye-witness any armed formations

21 of the Territorial Defence, the army, or the police situated or

22 patrolling in Sirokaca?

23 A. Maybe once or twice I had an opportunity to see the reserve

24 police that just passed through the area. I would not say that it's a

25 formation. It would be three to four men, never more than that.

Page 3416

1 Q. Thank you. And apart from your own observations of occasionally

2 one or two times seeing three to four reserve policemen, did you have

3 occasion to hear from other people about the existence of any

4 Territorial Defence, army, or police forces that were situated in or

5 patrolling Sirokaca prior to the date that you were wounded?

6 A. Excuse me. Yes, my neighbours were saying that there is a

7 Territorial Defence, that there is a reserve police, but no one said

8 where they were or how many of them there were. No one mentioned any

9 specific figures.

10 Q. Thank you. Now, if you could tell me after you left the

11 hospital, did you and your family remain living in the same Sirokaca

12 neighbourhood or did you move elsewhere for the remainder of the war?

13 A. No, we lived in the same house throughout.

14 Q. Okay. Now I'd like to focus on the time-period after you

15 returned to your home from the hospital, that is to say from June 1992

16 through 1995, did you at any time become aware of any armed forces of the

17 so-called Armija of BiH being based in Sirokaca or passing through

18 Sirokaca to battle with the Serb forces?

19 A. As far as I know, they were not based there; but as for whether

20 they passed through or not, I really can't tell. I can only assume that

21 it was possible that they did, but I myself never saw them.

22 Q. That's fair enough, ma'am. Did you have occasion to ever see or

23 hear about any artillery forces of the Army of BiH being positioned in or

24 near Sirokaca in that time-period, again after you were treated and

25 released from the hospital?

Page 3417

1 A. Specifically in Sirokaca I didn't hear anything about that and I

2 definitely never saw anything to that effect, and I never heard that

3 there was any artillery weaponry positioned in Sirokaca.

4 Q. Now I'd like to ask you some questions about parts of the

5 statements that you gave to the Office of the Prosecutor. First, I would

6 like to look at P281, which is your statement dated the

7 24th of February, 2004, and I'd like to ask you about paragraph 2 of the

8 same which is on page 2 in the English and page 2 in the B/C/S in

9 e-court. And I believe it's up on the screen.

10 Madam, there you identify that the only military establishment

11 near to your home was the barracks some 1.5 kilometres away at Bistrik.

12 For the record, can you tell us what force occupied these barracks; that

13 is to say in May of 1992?

14 A. I'm not sure. I think that until May this barracks were occupied

15 by the JNA; however, I don't know exactly when they left it. It might

16 even have been as early as in May.

17 Q. Okay. That's fair enough. And after they left, were these

18 barracks occupied by someone else or were they empty, if you know?

19 A. I don't have any exact knowledge at to who went there and when it

20 happened exactly.

21 Q. That's fair enough. If I can now ask to direct your attention to

22 paragraph 11 of this statement. This is on the third page in English and

23 the fourth page in B/C/S. And we earlier talked about the front lines

24 and you answered as you answered, so now I want to ask you: Here in

25 paragraph 11 you indicate at the end of the paragraph:

Page 3418

1 "We were also at least a kilometre from the front lines."

2 Could you explain that answer for me in light of what you said

3 today about your knowledge of the front lines. Is this an estimate on

4 your part? Or did you definitely know which front line is referenced

5 here?

6 A. I don't know exactly, and in my statement I just expressed my

7 opinion. Therefore, I don't know exactly. As I said, those were edges

8 of the area which means that the lines were above our houses. However,

9 how many kilometres away they were, I don't know. My estimate was that

10 it was 1 to 2 kilometres, but I really cannot tell you the exact

11 distance.

12 Q. When you say "above our houses," were the front lines between

13 Bistrik and Sirokaca or between Sirokaca and another suburb or area?

14 A. Bistrik is located below Sirokaca, which means that the lines

15 were not between Bistrik and Sirokaca but rather above Sirokaca.

16 Q. Thank you for clearing that up for me. As I indicated, I have

17 not had the opportunity to visit Sirokaca so it's unclear to me --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, you can see it on the map. It's quite

19 clear that Bistrik is further down and Sirokaca is further up the hill

20 and then it goes further up and that's where the -- at least on maps we

21 find front lines.

22 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honour, and her answer of "above our

23 houses" needs to be cleared up and that's why I asked them the way I did

24 without --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and then you asked whether it was further down

Page 3419

1 as you can see on the map, because there are indications there on what

2 goes uphill and what goes -- there are altitude lines so it's just a

3 question which doesn't make sense. And usually rivers are further down.

4 Miljacka river is further down in the direction of Bistrik.

5 Please try to deal with the information available as

6 intelligently as possible. Please proceed.

7 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. Now, Madam, while we're still on paragraph 11 I'd like to ask you

9 about the other words that are recorded there, including:

10 "... there were no troop concentrations, military positions, or

11 other such places that could have been construed as military targets."

12 Are all of these your words or were they words that were

13 suggested to you by perhaps the person interviewing you, in particular

14 "construed as a military target"?

15 A. These are my words and my opinion. I don't know how familiar you

16 are with Sarajevo and how these neighbourhood look like. You have small

17 family houses which are clustered together next to one another with

18 almost no gap between them. Therefore, I don't know what major troop

19 concentration there could exist. All these houses were varying between

20 one-storey to three-storey houses. In a word, those were regular family

21 homes.

22 Q. Would you agree with me that you can only know what you saw or

23 heard about in regards to troop concentrations or military positions?

24 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Judge --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hochhauser.

Page 3420

1 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Yeah, I'm going to object to that question. I'm

2 not sure what it --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I think what Mr. --

4 MS. HOCHHAUSER: What it's asking.

5 JUDGE ORIE: -- Ivetic is asking: Can you only see what you see,

6 can you only know what you've either seen or heard.

7 That's your question?

8 MR. IVETIC: I can rephrase it.

9 Q. Is the -- is the --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Do you think it would assist the Chamber in itself

11 to have these kind of general statements? You can only see something if

12 you don't have your eyes closed, isn't it, Witness --

13 MR. IVETIC: Well, Your Honours, I'm trying to see for

14 paragraph 11 what the basis of that was -- if it was --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Okay, do that --

16 MR. IVETIC: If it was beyond her own knowledge. That is what

17 I'm trying to find out.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Do that directly then, please.

19 MR. IVETIC:

20 Q. Madam witness, with respect to paragraph 11, are the conclusions

21 stated therein based on your own personal observations and what you heard

22 or on other sources?

23 A. Partly it is based on what I saw because I had an opportunity to

24 see it, but as much as I was able to see I didn't see any concentration

25 of military troops. I never heard anyone speaking about concentration of

Page 3421

1 major military forces. Therefore, that's what it is based upon.

2 Q. You have twice now used the term "major military forces." I'm

3 asking about forces in general. Would your answer be the same with

4 regard to forces in general as opposed to major military forces?

5 A. I may have misspoken. I was referring to any military forces.

6 Q. Thank you for that clarification. Now, since we're at this page,

7 I'd like to ask you about paragraph 12 which regards the broadcast on the

8 radio that you heard that you believe was General Mladic giving

9 directions. First of all, am I correct that the locations that you heard

10 from this radio broadcast, none of them were the location of Sirokaca

11 where you were injured on the 28th of May -- 28th/29th of May, 1992?

12 A. As far as I can remember, there was no mention of Sirokaca.

13 Q. And apart from the fact that the radio identified the voice as

14 that of General Mladic, did you have any independent knowledge yourself

15 to permit you to identify that voice as belonging to General Mladic?

16 A. I'm not an expert of any sort. I cannot tell you, therefore,

17 exactly whether that was his voice or not, but I established a connection

18 between this voice and some later statements made by General Mladic.

19 Q. I appreciate that. With regard to those later statements, how

20 many later statements are we talking about?

21 A. I cannot give you an exact number. If I heard something in

22 relation to Srebrenica, I cannot tell you exactly how many times it was

23 mentioned because I didn't keep any record of that.

24 Q. Okay. Fair enough. Now I'd like to show you a document. It's

25 already in evidence as Exhibit D39, and this is an intercept of a

Page 3422

1 conversation between General Mladic and another individual dated

2 29 May 1992. And I would like to turn to page 5 in e-court in the

3 English and page 4 in the B/C/S. Again, page 4 in the B/C/S and page 5

4 in the English version. And, madam, in the B/C/S it's the part spoken by

5 Mr. Mladic towards the last half of the page, near the middle but not

6 quite in the middle. And I will read for you the English so that you can

7 locate it. And, again, this is reported to be Ratko Mladic saying as

8 follows:

9 "I agree. I want the same thing. If they want peace, they can

10 have it. I ordered yesterday evening as soon as I arrived, there was

11 that attack not only against the units but also against you. This

12 shooting, somehow I managed to calm down the men here, to get them under

13 control, to stop them from firing. This thing they are doing now, they

14 probably have good pantomimes or good impressionists who probably

15 successfully imitated our voices, mine, yours, everybody's."

16 Madam, did you happen to know of any such possibility of people

17 imitating the voices of General Mladic prior to today?

18 A. No, I have no knowledge about that.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, to the extent you want to draw the

20 attention of the Chamber to the basis on which the witness testified that

21 what she heard on the radio - whether that was Mr. Mladic's voice, yes or

22 no - that point is perfectly clear to us now. The witness, as far as we

23 understand, had no personal knowledge of Mr. -- she never met Mr. Mladic.

24 If you refer to other statements given by Mr. Mladic then of course we

25 could explore to what extent those were authentic or not. We could deal

Page 3423

1 with that for another two or three hours. The point you want to make is

2 perfectly clear to the Chamber. Please proceed.

3 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.

4 Q. I'd like to now turn to your other statement briefly, and that

5 is, I believe, P282 which is dated the 2nd of November, 2008, and I have

6 just a few brief questions about this relating, I think, to only one

7 paragraph. And I think it is the second page in English and the second

8 page in the B/C/S. And it is paragraph 3. And now we have that on the

9 screen, madam.

10 First of all, can you confirm whether or not the incident wherein

11 you were wounded was reported to the local police?

12 A. As far as I know, it wasn't.

13 Q. Okay. Would it be accurate to say that no one, in fact, be it

14 police, army, or any international bodies, performed an investigation of

15 the shelling site where you were injured?

16 A. Not that I know of and, as I said in my statement, that was not

17 common procedure because there were so many shells falling down, which

18 leads me to believe that it would have been difficult to achieve.

19 Q. Okay. I understand your general answer, but I have to ask about

20 specific items. Did anyone take any measurements or pictures of the

21 scene, either at the time or at any time thereafter?

22 A. No, as far as I know.

23 Q. Did anyone preserve any of these shell fragments or casings?

24 A. Not that I know of.

25 Q. Now, you mention men in the neighbourhood saying that it was

Page 3424

1 "large-calibre howitzer shell." Am I correct that we're talking just

2 about regular civilians or are we talking about anyone with specific

3 knowledge of these things?

4 A. Yes, these were civilians who had previously served in the JNA,

5 just like the majority of men in our country did; and on that basis they

6 were able to form some opinions of theirs.

7 Q. Okay.

8 A. But I cannot say that they were experts, in fact.

9 Q. Thank you, madam, and I appreciate that. Now, in this paragraph

10 you also state:

11 "According to the locals, the shell came from Borije to the east

12 of us."

13 First of all, are these locals the same neighbours that we're

14 talking about?

15 A. Yes, the neighbours.

16 Q. And this site that they had mentioned, Borije, could you tell us

17 how far away Borije is from that location, from the site where you were

18 injured?

19 A. I really have no idea. One can see them, but I really have no

20 clue as to how many kilometres was the distance.

21 Q. What about in relation to the front lines? Where would Borije be

22 situated in regard to the front lines you earlier indicated as being

23 somewhere located above your houses?

24 A. Opposite of us, due east. If you view it from Sirokaca, it would

25 be opposite, to the right.

Page 3425

1 Q. Thank you. And am I correct that this area of Borije was held

2 mainly by the forces loyal to the Izetbegovic government?

3 A. I honestly don't know that.

4 Q. That's fair enough. I'd like to then move to another topic.

5 First of all, are you familiar with the area of Sirokaca where there is a

6 primary school located?

7 A. Yes, I am. I attended that primary school.

8 Q. And, again, since I'm not from Sirokaca, is there only one

9 primary school in Sirokaca or are there multiple primary schools within

10 that neighbourhood?

11 A. There's only one in Sirokaca.

12 Q. Okay. And how far is that one primary school from the place

13 where your home was located in Sirokaca?

14 A. I can only suppose that it was 3- to 400 metres as the crow

15 flies, but I cannot tell you exactly.

16 Q. Did you have any knowledge or did you hear that that particular

17 school during 1992, 1993, and 1994 was used by the army of the BiH forces

18 to billet their soldiers?

19 A. I have no knowledge about that, therefore I cannot say either yes

20 or no.

21 Q. And just to clarify since you said it's about 3- to 400 metres as

22 the crow flies, did you have occasion to visit the school during the

23 time-periods when you were walking around your house, 200 to 300 metres

24 around your house, in the time-period of May 1992 or the weeks prior?

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Ivetic, if the school is about 400 metres as

Page 3426

1 the crow flies and I walk only up to 300 metres, how do I get to the

2 school?

3 MR. IVETIC: Because she said 300 to 400 metres, Your Honours.

4 I'm trying to clarify to see if it's more 400 or 300 if she would have

5 had an occasion to see the school on the occasions that she travelled.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

7 MR. IVETIC:

8 Q. Madam, perhaps I can simplify the question: Did you ever have

9 occasion to get a glimpse of the school during the time-period when you

10 would have walked 200 to 300 metres around your house?

11 A. I didn't have such occasion. Well, speaking about walking within

12 the radius of 2- to 300 metres, I'm not talking about a stroll but rather

13 about the area that we had a chance to find some water springs. In other

14 words, the walk involved going to fetch water if you didn't have it on

15 the specific day. That was not a recreational walk.

16 Q. I appreciate that, madam, and I did not mean to imply otherwise.

17 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I see we're at the time for the break

18 and I have another approximately 30 to 35 minutes and I would be moving

19 on to a different topic, so it would be a convenient time for the break.

20 JUDGE ORIE: It would be a convenient time for the break. We

21 will take the break after the witness has left the courtroom.

22 We'd like to see you back in approximately 20 minutes and then

23 we'll continue for as Mr. Ivetic indicated approximately another half an

24 hour. You may follow the usher.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right. Thank you.

Page 3428

1 Your Honours, either through another witness or from the bar table.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We take a break and resume at ten minutes to

3 11.00.

4 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

5 --- On resuming at 10.54 a.m.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

7 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

8 [The witness takes the stand]

9 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, Mr. Ivetic, the Chamber would

10 have a few questions for the witness.

11 Could we have P3 on our screen, page 76 in e-court. Could we

12 zoom in on the further to the right top corner of this, even a bit more

13 on the word "Sirokaca." Yes.

14 Witness, can you see on the map, can you orient yourself? I see

15 that the Berkusa Mala seems to be indicated just above the word

16 "Bostarici." Do you see that?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I see that.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Was that the street where you used to live?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Would you be able to mark on this map the exact

21 place of your house, orienting yourself to the other names of the streets

22 and I think at the top you see the road that goes through from east to

23 west. Do you see that? I think it had a specific -- has a specific name

24 or hasn't it? You see that on the top? Perhaps we could slightly move

25 out and go a little bit. Wait with marking until you get instructions.

Page 3429

1 Are you better able now to orient yourself? You still see

2 Sirokaca?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, now it's better.

4 JUDGE ORIE: If we zoom in again on Sirokaca and especially on

5 the street I just referred to, would you be able to mark on this map

6 where your house was? The usher will give you a ...

7 What happens? Could we have the same ...

8 Mr. Usher, could you assist the witness in using the right

9 equipment.

10 Take your time to orient yourself again. If you mark it with a

11 letter K, which would stand for Kuca I think for you.

12 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now on this map are you able to find the

14 street where the school was? If you would like to have it zoomed in more

15 or zoomed out more, please tell us and we'll do as you indicate. Yes,

16 we'll not zoom in and out because then we lose the marking, but are you

17 able to find the street where the school was and the approximate location

18 of the school?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If we could zoom in once again.

20 This way it's difficult.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then we have to re-mark later the K because

22 it will be lost. But we know where it is, it's just to the M of Mala,

23 the name of your street.

24 Could we zoom in again.

25 Perhaps you repeat your marking of your own house with a K, which

Page 3430

1 was just at Berkusa Mala just near to the M.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, maybe last time I marked too

3 high. It's closer to this intersection we see on the map.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Please correct it as you consider accurate. If you

5 want to change it, the usher can help you to remove whatever you want to

6 change. Because if you said it was too high, it's now even a bit higher

7 than you did it for the first time, I think.

8 Could we remove the --

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, it's not all right, not

10 even now.

11 JUDGE ORIE: We take it out.

12 Mr. Usher, could you -- yes, so it's wiped out.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could we erase this too.

14 [Marks]

15 JUDGE ORIE: Do I understand your marking is now a bit further

16 down the street compared to the first one, a little bit closer to the

17 centre of Sirokaca?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In fact, the house is in the street

19 itself on the line marking the street, and you enter the house from the

20 street. So it's not removed from the centre of the street.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I was not talking about the centre of the

22 street but the centre of the settlement of Sirokaca. But you have now

23 marked the house. Could you mark the place, to the extent you're able to

24 do so, where the school was? And if you do it with the S of Skola,

25 then ...

Page 3431

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I'm able to tell on the

2 map, I think it was there -- it is still there.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

4 Could this receive a Chamber exhibit number. It would be,

5 Madam Registrar ... ?

6 THE REGISTRAR: It would be C1, Your Honours.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. C1 is admitted into

8 evidence.

9 [Trial Chamber confers]

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic.

11 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

12 Q. I'd now like to take a look at 65 ter number 1D00318, which is a

13 statement dated the 25th of March, 1996, of Sl Sljivo Jasmin, a member of

14 the BH army. First of all, we will not be seeking to admit this

15 statement through the witness, but portions are relevant in relation to

16 the neighbourhood of Sirokaca and I'd like to see if the witness has any

17 knowledge or if it assists us in getting to the truth of the matter. At

18 this time I think we need to go to the fifth page in English and also the

19 fifth page of the B/C/S in this document. And the portion that I would

20 like to direct the attention to would be immediately under the heading of

21 "amendment to the statement."

22 And, Ms. Witness, if I can direct your attention to the portion

23 that begins as follows:

24 "As a member of the Muslim people, immediately after the SDA was

25 formed I joined it. At the beginning of January 1991 at one of the SDA

Page 3432

1 meetings in the Cultural Centre at Sirokaca I heard from Faik Avdibegovic

2 for the Green Berets as a military formation of the SDA. On that

3 occasion we were told that the commander of the Green Berets in BH was

4 Svrakic Emin and Avdibegovic Faik was appointed for the area of Sirokaca.

5 About 200 people at the very beginning joined the military formation of

6 the Green Berets of Sirokaca. The code for Fadil Avdibegovic and our

7 unit was 'Bosna 27.' At the very beginning of January 1991, Emin Svrakic

8 sent 70 A rifles to our unit, which were immediately distributed by Faik

9 at his own discretion. On that occasion Faik issued the order for us to

10 organise ourselves and to control the terrain from Sirokaca to the hotel

11 'Osmice' by patrols."

12 First of all, ma'am, did you happen to hear or know of a

13 Mr. Faik Avdibegovic being in Sirokaca either in 1991 or after the war

14 started?

15 A. The name Faik Avdibegovic is familiar, but I don't know the man

16 personally. I don't know where he was in the period you mentioned.

17 Q. You say that the name is familiar. Is it familiar to you in the

18 context of him being the commander of a group of 200 persons in Sirokaca

19 or in some other context?

20 A. I know the name as a name I have heard, not in the context of his

21 being a commander, not in that sense. I just heard the name but not in

22 the context you mentioned.

23 Q. Okay, fair enough. Are you familiar with the cultural centre and

24 did you have occasion to hear of any meetings of any military formations

25 in the culture centre in 1991?

Page 3433

1 A. I know where the cultural centre was, but I never heard of any

2 meetings.

3 Q. Can you tell us -- are you surprised to learn of the alleged

4 existence of a 200-person-strong unit controlling the terrain from

5 Sirokaca to the Osmice hotel, as alleged by this document?

6 A. I don't quite understand your question.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Whether the witness was surprised or not,

8 Mr. Ivetic, do you really think it would assist the Chamber? You could

9 ask her whether she had any knowledge. Because surprise is --

10 MR. IVETIC: [Overlapping speakers] --

11 JUDGE ORIE: -- if you have a different impression, isn't it? So

12 if you ask about it and I think until now the witness said she didn't say

13 anything -- she didn't know anything -- she never observed any troops,

14 apart from this was all 1991, as far as I understand.

15 MR. IVETIC: That's correct.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

17 MR. IVETIC:

18 Q. Did you have any knowledge of any troops organising patrols in

19 Sirokaca, controlling the terrain from the Osmice hotel to Sirokaca in

20 1991?

21 A. No.

22 Q. And could you help us again with the geography. Where is this

23 terrain, this Osmice hotel? Where would it be situated in relation to

24 Sirokaca and in relation to your home? And if you think you would be

25 assisted by the map, we could go to the map.

Page 3434

1 A. Maybe it would be clearer to you if I showed it on the map.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask you: Was it further away from your home

3 than the school was?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Considerably further?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot tell you really in any

7 unit of measurement, but the school is approximately at the same level as

8 my house, whereas Osmice hotel is above my house, above the entire

9 neighbourhood of Sirokaca in fact.

10 JUDGE ORIE: You mean higher up the hill?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12 JUDGE ORIE: If -- proceed as you wish, Mr. Ivetic.

13 MR. IVETIC: Okay.

14 [Defence counsel confer]

15 MR. IVETIC: If we can have P3 and I believe it was page 76 in

16 the same map that we just had up on the screen before. And if we could

17 perhaps again zoom generally in the area where the words "Sirokaca" are

18 displayed. Thank you.

19 Q. And with the assistance of the usher, madam, I would ask, perhaps

20 in some colour that would be distinguishable from the text that's on the

21 map, when the usher gets there, if you could identify for us generally

22 the location of the hotel. I understand that you perhaps cannot be

23 precise with this map and this equipment, but the general location of the

24 hotel that is mentioned in this document, the Osmice hotel.

25 A. Could we zoom in a bit on the map because this way I can't see

Page 3435

1 the area.

2 MR. IVETIC: If possible, can we zoom in for the witness.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps a little bit further down because the

4 witness said it was higher up the hill. A little bit more, a little bit

5 more.

6 MR. IVETIC:

7 Q. Is this position of the map helpful, Madam Witness, to identify

8 the approximate location of the Osmice hotel?

9 A. No. I think the hotel is still further above, that means lower

10 on the map. A bit further to my left. No, the other way, the other way,

11 my left. This is really difficult for me. I can only suppose where it

12 was, but I can't mark it exactly on the map.

13 Q. That's fine. If you could perhaps describe for us in reference

14 to either the -- any of the other printed text on the map where the

15 general area is, that should suffice I think.

16 A. That should be in the area of Brajkovac probably. I really

17 cannot say for sure now. I cannot tell on the map.

18 Q. Okay. Thank you. I see that the witness has indicated somewhere

19 near the bottom of the map where -- Brajkovac is in the bottom portion of

20 the map we now have. Thank you.

21 JUDGE ORIE: There are two Brajkovacs, Mr. Ivetic.

22 MR. IVETIC: I apologise if there's two.

23 JUDGE ORIE: There is one in the real bottom but a little bit

24 further -- higher up to the left there is another Brajkovac.

25 MR. IVETIC: I see.

Page 3436

1 Q. Madam, when you say "Brajkovac," do you mean the one that is near

2 to Lipe or the one that's near to Cicin Han, for the same of clarity?

3 A. Lipe.

4 Q. Thank you. Now if we could return to the previous document which

5 was again 1D00318.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, if it is the Brajkovac near Lipe, could

7 you agree with the Prosecution that the distance to the house is anywhere

8 between 400 and 450 metres.

9 MR. IVETIC: Of that location, yes.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

11 Now, you need two to agree.

12 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Judge, I would have to just take a closer look

13 but I'll come back prepared to --

14 JUDGE ORIE: Well, it's just using the scale on the bottom of the

15 map and looking at the map and what the distance is, isn't it? If you

16 take the original one, sheet 11, and then take a small pice of paper,

17 mark the distance and then match it with the --

18 MS. HOCHHAUSER: I'm sorry, Your Honour, you have the advantage

19 on me because I didn't have the actual map book out so I can't see the

20 scale as listed.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I see that. On my little piece of paper we are

22 coming close to 500 metres, please proceed. But please let me know at a

23 later stage whether there is any agreement with the Defence.

24 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

25 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, can I just say, because it seems to be

Page 3437

1 relevant now, that the Prosecution does have a computer software that has

2 a capacity to get very, very precise measurements between locations, and

3 perhaps the better way to proceed is that any location or distance that

4 the Chamber feels is important to the trial, we'll sit down with the

5 Defence at that software, review it, and I think we'll be able to more

6 confidently agree to distances once we've both had the benefit of that.

7 JUDGE ORIE: First of all, Mr. Groome, I take it that Mr. Ivetic

8 will respond to this invitation, but it certainly would have saved a lot

9 of time in court if Mr. Ivetic would have oriented himself on the

10 locations which were already known to him; that is, the school and this

11 centre. I mean, must be able to find out where approximately it is and

12 see how relevant it is. So I'm not saying this moment having the

13 impression, a provisional impression, that the distance to the place

14 mentioned by Mr. Ivetic is approximately 4- to 500 metres -- so the

15 relevance is for Mr. Ivetic to consider. And we'll then of course think

16 about it.

17 Mr. Ivetic, please proceed.

18 MR. IVETIC: Thank you. If we could return to -- oh, we're

19 already there. If we could turn to I believe it is page 6 in both

20 languages. I'll just verify that. Yes, it's 6 in both languages.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The previous document you used, do you intend

22 to --

23 MR. IVETIC: This is the same document, I think, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE ORIE: It's the same document?

25 MR. IVETIC: Yes.

Page 3438

1 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just see.

2 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

3 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

4 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.

5 I think the part I want is beginning on the second paragraph of

6 the page in English and also in the B/C/S and it starts as follows,

7 beginning quote:

8 "After the training was completed we took the oath and, as far as

9 I can remember, it consisted of the following words: 'I will swear that

10 I will defend BH with all my heart and especially Sarajevo from the Serbs

11 and Croats.' After that we said 'alah uegber' three times.

12 "After the return to Sarajevo we were tasked by Faik to patrol

13 with weapons through Sirokaca and to establish check-points. We carried

14 out those activities from some time in March 1991 until April 1992."

15 End of the selection.

16 Q. Now, Madam Witness, do you have any knowledge or recollection of

17 check-points being armed -- being set up by armed men in existence in

18 Sirokaca from 1991 March until April 1992, as described in this document?

19 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Your Honour.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

21 MS. HOCHHAUSER: If I might just object to the manner in which

22 these -- this questioning is proceeding with the reading of passages from

23 this document that don't ultimately reflect the point of the question,

24 which is: Does the witness have knowledge of check-points.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

Page 3439

1 MS. HOCHHAUSER: It's preceded by a lengthy recitation of

2 information that the witness couldn't possibly have knowledge of.

3 JUDGE ORIE: We do not know.

4 Do you have any knowledge of check-points in the area between

5 March 1991 and April 1992, in Sirokaca of course?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I never saw any such check-points

7 and no one ever told me that they saw something like this. I must say

8 that I really am surprised now.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic --

10 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.

11 JUDGE ORIE: -- the witness never saw anything of the kind

12 apparently. Please proceed.

13 MR. IVETIC: Thank you. Then I move on. Again, I will not be

14 seeking to admit this document at this time through this witness.

15 I would like to now take a look at another document that's been

16 marked as 1D00317 --

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, could you also again first explore with

18 the witness whether she has any knowledge about the matter you later will

19 show to her in this document. I don't know what it is about --

20 MR. IVETIC: Absolutely.

21 JUDGE ORIE: -- if you just ask her.

22 MR. IVETIC:

23 Q. Do you have any knowledge of artillery located in Sirokaca being

24 used to strike at Vraca and Serb positions in April of 1992?

25 A. No.

Page 3440

1 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

2 MR. IVETIC: I'd like to look at 1D00317.

3 Q. While we wait for that, madam, for your information this is an

4 intercept that was disclosed by the Office of the Prosecutor purporting

5 to be dated the 22nd of April, 1992, and it is between -- it claims to be

6 between Radovan Karadzic and a man named Momo. Again, we will not be

7 seeking to introduce this through this witness but believes that it deals

8 with matters relevant to the witness's testimony --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Could you first ask the witness whether there's

10 anything -- you may have a subject on your mind you want to ask questions

11 about, whether she knows anything about what you want to touch upon.

12 MR. IVETIC: Well, I just asked if there was shelling in April of

13 1992 from Sirokaca on Vraca and this is what this intercept deals with,

14 Your Honour.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay.

16 Do you have any knowledge about shelling from Sirokaca to Vraca

17 in April 1992?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

20 MR. IVETIC: Can we first look at page 2 of this document in the

21 English and page 3 of the B/C/S.

22 Q. And if you could look there, madam, there's a section where

23 they're talking about 50 to 60 shells falling on the territory of Vraca

24 and it's -- the inference is that those are coming from Zlatiste. Could

25 you tell us where Zlatiste is located in relation to Sirokaca and the

Page 3441

1 neighbourhood where your home is.

2 A. Zlatiste, well it's an area like Osmice and Brajkovac, on the

3 outskirts. We've already seen all of that on the map. It's above

4 Sirokaca. So that line that you are talking about and is

5 Brajkovac-Osmice-Zlatiste. That's on the outskirts. Now, what the

6 actual distance is, I really don't know.

7 Q. That's okay. There's a specific part of the document where Momo

8 begins --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Could we first ask: What is Zlatiste? Is that a

10 hill or is it a village or is it a river? What is it?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the most accurate thing we

12 can say is that it's a hill. There were a few houses at Zlatiste, but

13 not enough to call it a settlement. I mean, I don't know how many houses

14 there were there, but it wasn't a big settlement.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Ivetic, we see Zlatiste on sheet 11. Is

16 that what you're exploring?

17 MR. IVETIC: I was exploring the locations that are identified in

18 this intercept, Your Honours, yes. So Zlatiste being one, the other

19 being Vraca. I'd like to ask about Vraca, where Vraca is located.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, any effort made to agree with the Prosecution

21 where Zlatiste and where Vraca is? I mean, if you start asking a witness

22 where Paris is, I would suggest that you first ask whether you can agree

23 with the Prosecution where Paris is, that's the same for London and could

24 be for Zlatiste and Vraca as well. I mean, this witness is called for

25 other reasons, I think. And, of course, if you would be a great

Page 3442

1 geographer, and if it's close to her house I can imagine that you use the

2 testimony of such a witness. If it is further away from the house. But

3 she said Zlatiste, but we see it on the map. Now, if that is what the

4 witness intended to say, she said it was further from Brajkovac. I, by

5 the way, now see that there are three Brajkovacs on the map. Proceed as

6 you wish, but try to find the most efficient way of establishing facts.

7 MR. IVETIC: Okay.

8 Q. Let me skip right to the middle of the page then of this

9 document --

10 JUDGE ORIE: And if we're talking about Vraca, is that Vraca

11 or -- because I see Vraca on the map which is -- well, at least some few

12 kilometres away from where the witness said she lived, I think, as the

13 crow flies, 3 kilometres. Is that the Vraca you're talking about?

14 MR. IVETIC: There's a Vraca identified in this intercept and I

15 believe it is that one, yes.

16 JUDGE ORIE: So how could the witness know which Vraca they refer

17 to? So I take it you have formed an opinion about whether that is the

18 Vraca.

19 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Now, would you agree with the Prosecution that Vraca

21 is on this same sheet 11, approximately 1 kilometre from the left of the

22 margin of the map, close -- if that's what you think it is.

23 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Well, Judge, I can't agree that that's the Vraca

24 that's being referred to in this intercept --

25 JUDGE ORIE: No.

Page 3443

1 MS. HOCHHAUSER: -- but I can agree that there's a Vraca that's

2 indicated on the map close to the left-hand border such as you've

3 indicated. And I would also in response to your earlier question of

4 whether there's been any effort to agree, we would agree that all of

5 these neighbourhoods as depicted on the map are such as they are on the

6 map in terms of their relationship to one another, that this is the

7 correct geographical layout.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

9 MR. IVETIC: Okay.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

11 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.

12 Q. Now, if I can direct your attention, again it's the middle of the

13 page of this document where it starts "half an hour ago." And if you

14 read those -- it's at the top -- I'm sorry, it's right there at the top

15 of the page in the B/C/S, middle of the page in the English. If you read

16 the next one, two, three, four, five, six -- 15 or so lines, they're

17 talking about artillery fire and artillery pieces located at Sirokaca.

18 And the original name Momo is reported as saying:

19 "At Sirokaca. And as for the urban part, most probably down

20 there from the 'Zeljeznicar' stadium."

21 From the Zeljeznicar stadium.

22 "Yes, yes."

23 Are these -- is that an area that is familiar to you as being

24 near Sirokaca -- the Sirokaca neighbourhood where you lived; and if not,

25 where is it located?

Page 3444

1 A. I am a bit confused because here it says Sirokaca and the

2 Zeljeznicar stadium. So I don't understand. What does the question

3 actually refer to, which part? Both Sirokaca and the Zeljeznicar stadium

4 are mentioned.

5 Q. I'm asking about Sirokaca as a site that was identified in

6 addition to the Zeljeznicar stadium. Is there only one area known as

7 Sirokaca in Sarajevo?

8 A. As far as I know, there's only one.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Do you know where the Zeljeznicar stadium is?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do.

11 JUDGE ORIE: And could you tell us where it approximately is. Is

12 it near to your house? Is it in Sirokaca? Or is it elsewhere?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it's not nearby. It's the area

14 of Grbavica.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

16 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

17 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.

18 Q. If we could take the time to look at 1D00315. This document,

19 madam, you'll see is a combat report of Commander Sipcic of the

20 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps of the VRS, and it is dated 19 June 1992, just a

21 few weeks after you were wounded. And if we can look at item 1 of this

22 report --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, again, first explore with the witness

24 whether she has any knowledge about the matter that you want to address.

25 MR. IVETIC: Okay.

Page 3445

1 Q. Do -- madam, now I know that you were probably recovering from

2 your wounds, but did you have occasion in the weeks following your

3 wounding to have any knowledge of any attacks conducted by Bosnian Muslim

4 forces originating from Sirokaca and being directed at surrounding areas,

5 including towards the -- originating from Sirokaca towards Zlatiste?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Okay. With respect -- with respect to item 1 we see here that

8 the document purports to state that the enemy used mortar fire. Are you

9 familiar or did you have occasion to hear of mortars being either

10 transported through Sirokaca or being stationed in Sirokaca in the weeks

11 following, again in June 1992, following your release from the hospital?

12 A. No. After I was wounded, for at least six months I did not leave

13 the basement. So really, all information from that period is very scant,

14 I mean the information I had.

15 Q. And what about -- you say you were off for six months. And what

16 about the period of October 1992 specific --

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, the Chamber wonders whether you want to

18 go through the whole of the conflict, all of the -- everything that

19 happened around Sirokaca. What is the relevance of that at this moment?

20 And second, where the witness has told us again and again and again that

21 she has no knowledge of military, that she hadn't seen them, et cetera,

22 what would you expect to continue this line of questioning?

23 MR. IVETIC: Well, Your Honours, it goes towards the credibility

24 and the reliability of the witness's testimony where she talks about

25 there not being any military installations nearby or military

Page 3446

1 concentrations nearby --

2 JUDGE ORIE: Well --

3 MR. IVETIC: -- and this shows that they were ongoing at every

4 stage. There is military in and around Sirokaca is the Defence's

5 position.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Well, then the witness apparently has not seen that,

7 has not observed that. Well, now being in the basement for most of the

8 time, moving out of the house now and then for 2- or 300 metres would --

9 it might not surprise that she didn't see mortars passing through

10 Sirokaca, if there were any at any point in time. It seems that what

11 you're asking the witness doesn't bring much what would assist the

12 Chamber at this moment. To the extent you have challenged any opinion

13 about military presence, I think that point is clear and we don't have to

14 go through all of the years of the conflict to further explore that with

15 this witness. This witness testifies primarily on being wounded when her

16 house, or at least the neighbouring house, was shelled on a certain date

17 and what the effect of that attack to that area was. That is where the

18 Chamber considers the importance, the primary importance, of this witness

19 to be. You have explored a few other things, not to much avail, because

20 the witness just doesn't know. And you should not continue that unless

21 there's any specific matter where you could have a reasonable expectation

22 that the witness could tell you anything about that.

23 MR. IVETIC: Well, Your Honours, then I will heed Your Honour's

24 instruction and will not ask about other reports of interactions between

25 the military forces in this region.

Page 3447

1 Q. And at that point then, madam, I thank you for your testimony.

2 MR. IVETIC: I have touched all the topics that I wanted to with

3 this witness.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE ORIE: Before I give an opportunity to re-examine the

7 witness, Ms. Hochhauser, I would have one question for you. I do

8 understand from your statement that you were wounded by shrapnel when a

9 neighbouring house was hit by a projectile. Is that correctly

10 understood?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Now, have you later seen the impact on that house of

13 your neighbour's, the impact of that shell, if it did hit the house

14 itself.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it hit the house itself and,

16 yes, I did see that.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Now, could you tell us, was the impact on the side

18 of the house facing the hill, uphill therefore; or was the impact from

19 downhill? Or neither of the two, that's also a possibility.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was facing downhill, that is to

21 say facing town.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Facing town. Which means that the impact -- if I

23 would take the house and look from the impact, that it would be rather

24 the -- from the direction of the river, from the valley, rather than from

25 uphill. Is that correctly understood?

Page 3451

1 Examination by Mr. Traldi:

2 Q. Sir, could I ask you to please state your full name for the

3 record.

4 A. My name is Mevludin Sejmenovic.

5 Q. And, sir, where did you live in April of 1992?

6 A. In April 1992 I lived in the village of Trnopolje, close to

7 Kozarac, which is in Prijedor municipality.

8 Q. And do you recall providing a statement to this Tribunal on

9 13 August of this year?

10 A. Yes, I do.

11 MR. TRALDI: I'd ask the court officer to please

12 display 65 ter 28437 on our screens. It's a statement by Mr. Sejmenovic

13 signed on 13 August 2012.

14 Q. And, sir, now that the document is on the screen before you, I'd

15 ask that you view this first page, in particular the signature at the

16 bottom, and I'd ask you if you recognise that signature.

17 A. Yes, that's a document that I signed and the signature at the

18 bottom of the document is my signature.

19 Q. And I'd ask that we turn now to page 14 of the English. And once

20 that comes up, I'll ask you to indicate again whether you recognise the

21 signature, this time at the top of the page.

22 A. Yes, I recognise it. At the top of the page is my signature.

23 Q. Have you had an opportunity to read and review this statement in

24 preparation for your appearance here today?

25 A. I have read my statement, and after reading and considering it I

Page 3452

1 signed it.

2 Q. And did you read it again recently in preparation for your

3 testimony?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. I'd ask the court officer to now please display 65 ter 28445, a

6 document entitled: Clarifications to statement of RM094.

7 Did you also review this document in preparation for your

8 statement?

9 A. Yes, I read this document as well.

10 Q. And does it accurately reflect clarifications to your statement

11 which you made after reviewing that statement?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. If the Chamber were to consider your statement in conjunction

14 with these clarifications now before us, will they have an accurate

15 record of your evidence?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And if I were today to ask you questions similar to those you

18 were asked in the taking of this statement, would you give the same

19 answers in substance?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And, sir, now that you have taken the solemn declaration, do you

22 affirm the truthfulness and accuracy of this statement?

23 A. Yes, I do, Your Honours.

24 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, having established the foundational

25 requirements necessary, the Prosecution at this time tenders 65 ter 28437

Page 3453

1 and 28445 into evidence pursuant to Rule 92 ter.

2 MR. LUKIC: No objections, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

4 28437, Madam Registrar, receives number ... ?

5 THE REGISTRAR: Becomes Exhibit P283, Your Honours.

6 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.

7 28445 receives number ... ?

8 THE REGISTRAR: Becomes Exhibit P284, Your Honours.

9 JUDGE ORIE: P284 is admitted into evidence.

10 Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

11 I think I still have to put on the record because it's not yet

12 that the leave requested to reply to the response to the 92 ter motion,

13 that that leave was granted.

14 Please proceed.

15 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, at this time I would also tender

16 associated exhibits 65 ter 06908, 18244, and 22696.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections?

18 MR. LUKIC: No objections, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Traldi, could we have a look at

20 65 ter 18244. Yes. I think that earlier there were redactions in it

21 which are now not there anymore in the English version. Having verified

22 this, Madam Registrar, 65 ter 06908 receives number ... ?

23 THE REGISTRAR: P285, Your Honours.

24 JUDGE ORIE: P285 is admitted into evidence.

25 65 ter 18244 receives number ... ?

Page 3454

1 THE REGISTRAR: P286, Your Honours.

2 JUDGE ORIE: P286 is admitted.

3 22696?

4 THE REGISTRAR: Becomes Exhibit P287, Your Honours.

5 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence. Again looking at --

6 let me have a look. Yes, there is some handwriting on the original which

7 is not identified as handwriting in the English translation, but perhaps

8 the parties could look at it to see what it presents. It doesn't seem to

9 be very important. Yes, then please proceed.

10 MR. TRALDI: Yes, Your Honour.

11 I will now read a brief oral summary of the witness's evidence

12 for the public record.

13 Mevludin Sejmenovic was one of the founders of the Party of

14 Democratic Action, or SDA, and served as a representative from Prijedor.

15 Sejmenovic observed the development of the Serbian Democratic Party, or

16 SDS, and its pursuit of ethnic separation. In Prijedor he saw the SDS

17 demand the large majority of the land for Serbs. On 29 and

18 30 April 1992, Prijedor town was taken over by Serb soldiers and

19 policemen. In May 1992, Sejmenovic and other SDA leaders met with

20 military officers and the Prijedor SDS president at the Prijedor SDS

21 building. The officers did almost all the talking. They demanded that

22 the Muslims surrender several thousand weapons, and when the Muslim

23 representatives said they did not have that many weapons one officer

24 said, "That's your problem. If you do not do that, I will raze Kozarac

25 to the ground."

Page 3455

1 Sejmenovic observed an organised campaign of expulsion in

2 Prijedor, including the attack on Kozarac foreshadowed by this meeting

3 and charged at Schedule A6.1 of the indictment. Throughout Prijedor he

4 saw the same pattern: Serb forces would surround an area, open fire from

5 all directions, and send the survives to Omarska and Trnopolje. Numerous

6 Muslim villages were destroyed.

7 Eventually Sejmenovic entered Trnopolje. He heard about killings

8 and rapes. Then six people who had helped him were killed, relevant to

9 Scheduled Incident B13.5 and he escaped. He later snuck back into the

10 camp but soon surrendered to save the lives of other detainees. He was

11 then sent to Omarska. Mr. Sejmenovic's evidence about these camps is

12 relevant to the counts of torture and cruel treatment charged at

13 Schedules C15.2 and C15.4 of the indictment.

14 While at Omarska, Sejmenovic was interviewed by two Serb

15 journalists. One of them brought him a script to read and told him if he

16 did so it would save his life. He was forced to give a false statement

17 implicating Muslim leaders in the conflict in Prijedor.

18 And, Your Honours, that concludes the public summary of the

19 witness's evidence.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Traldi.

21 MR. TRALDI:

22 Q. Sir, in paragraph 9 of your statement - now Exhibit P283 - on

23 page 3 of the English and page 4 of the B/C/S you described the SDS

24 claiming 70 per cent of Prijedor municipality as Serb land. How did you

25 learn of this claim?

Page 3456

1 A. Your Honours, if I may just say one sentence about the document

2 that was previously on our screens that is an ID document with a

3 photograph. The Judge asked why there was a word handwritten in the

4 original.

5 MR. TRALDI: And, Your Honour, I believe that's 65 ter 18244, now

6 P286, if it would assist the witness to have it in front of him again.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but the Witness -- it was only one very small

8 thing. If you would briefly explain, then please do so.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can do that. When I was given

10 that document in Banja Luka, I noticed there was a grammatical error in

11 the sentence. The word "da" was missing and when I received this

12 document I added the word "da" in Cyrillic in order to make this sentence

13 sound sensible. That's why it appeared there. And now I think I can

14 answer the question that was put to me earlier.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Serbs' territorial claims were

17 explicitly declared and became abundantly clear as soon as a Serb

18 official in a municipal paper ordered a cadastral map of Prijedor to be

19 printed depicting, according to them, that over 70 per cent of territory

20 of Prijedor municipality was owned by Serbs. Seeing that map, the

21 non-Serbs were in shock, but they didn't have either a possibility or

22 capability to refute this map officially. The entire state assets were

23 described as belonging to the Serbs, including natural resources, sports

24 facilities --

25 MR. TRALDI:

Page 3457

1 Q. Sir, I apologise for interrupting. Can you tell the Chamber in

2 what paper that map was published?

3 A. That was "Kozarski Vjesnik," which is the Official Gazette of

4 Kozarac.

5 Q. And why would you think that a map published in

6 "Kozarski Vjesnik" was published by the SDS?

7 A. Because this SDS official was at the head of this paper, and the

8 SDS had full control of it. There was only one journalist,

9 Muharem Nezivovic, who worked for "Kozarski Vjesnik," but at that point

10 he didn't have any influence at all.

11 MR. TRALDI: And, Your Honours, I'd ask that the court reporter

12 bring -- sorry, the court officer bring 65 ter 18281 to our screens.

13 It's a report from the Prijedor SJB.

14 Q. And, sir, in preparation for your testimony here, did you review

15 this report?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And does it accurately describe the events of the evening of

18 29 to 30 April 1992 which you discuss in Exhibit P283, your statement?

19 A. Yes.

20 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I'd tender 65 ter 18281 into evidence

21 as the next public Prosecution exhibit.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Document 18281 becomes Exhibit P288,

24 Your Honours.

25 JUDGE ORIE: P288 is admitted into evidence.

Page 3458

1 MR. TRALDI: I'd now ask that the court officer please call

2 65 ter 06951 to our screens.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: 06?

4 MR. TRALDI: 06951. And, yes, that's the correct document.

5 Q. And, sir, could you look at the B/C/S version of this document on

6 the left and read below the letter I, the first paragraph, and we're

7 going to need to slide a little bit to the left on the document. Perhaps

8 if there are technical difficulties showing him a large enough version to

9 read, if I read the English and he gets the translation, that would be

10 appropriate.

11 In this paragraph, sir, it says:

12 "All executive posts, posts involving a likely flow of

13 information, posts involving the protection of public property, that is,

14 all posts of importance to the functioning of the economy may only be

15 held by personnel of Serbian nationality."

16 My question to you, sir, is: Was the policy discussed in this

17 order implemented and followed in Prijedor municipality?

18 A. Yes, and even before the date when this decision was written. It

19 is dated the 22nd of June --

20 Q. Yes --

21 A. -- whereas this process had already started in Prijedor before

22 that date.

23 MR. TRALDI: And, Your Honours, I'd now tender 65 ter 06951 into

24 evidence as a public Prosecution exhibit.

25 JUDGE ORIE: In the absence of any objections, Madam Registrar.

Page 3459

1 THE REGISTRAR: Document 06951 becomes Exhibit P289,

2 Your Honours.

3 JUDGE ORIE: P289 is admitted into evidence.

4 MR. TRALDI: I'd ask the court officer to now call, please,

5 65 ter 03266 to our screens.

6 Q. Sir, did you also review this document in preparation for your

7 testimony?

8 A. Yes, I did.

9 Q. And what is reflected in this document, what event?

10 A. This document is a decision dismissing a municipal official who

11 was a non-Serb.

12 Q. And can you offer an opinion on whether this document is

13 authentic based on your knowledge of the municipal government in Prijedor

14 at the time?

15 A. It is certainly authentic because a large number of people were

16 dismissed from work in that same way or prevented from coming to work.

17 In other words, all non-Serbs were prevented from coming to work or were

18 sacked, and after a short period of time nobody was allowed to work in

19 any of these institutions.

20 Q. Do you recognise the stamp at the bottom of the document?

21 A. That's the stamp of the Municipal Assembly of Prijedor and it is

22 signed by Dr. Milan Kovacevic, who was the president of the executive

23 committee and --

24 Q. Thank you --

25 A. -- that is when the power was taken over.

Page 3460

1 MR. TRALDI: I now tender 65 ter 03266 as a public Prosecution

2 exhibit.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Document 03266 becomes Exhibit P290,

5 Your Honours.

6 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.

7 However, Mr. Traldi, the English version shows some handwriting

8 numbers only which does not appear to be on the original. I don't know

9 where they come from. I don't know what the meaning of it is.

10 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour, we certainly didn't intend to rely on

11 those, but I'll look into it and report back.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and if need be perhaps a clean copy would be

13 better, but then you would need leave of the Chamber to replace the

14 English translation by a clean one.

15 Please proceed.

16 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, we have several more stamped documents

17 bearing Kovacevic's name and documenting some more cases, so it would of

18 course be my submission this is not an isolated instance. However, to

19 focus the evidentiary record, I will not tender those unless on

20 cross-examination the Defence contests Mr. Sejmenovic's evidence that the

21 policy expressed in what's now P289 was carried out in Prijedor.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, is there any dispute about this not being a

23 unique document, apart from what it further means, et cetera, but is

24 there any dispute about similar documents signed by Dr. Kovacevic to

25 exist?

Page 3461

1 MR. LUKIC: There's no dispute, Your Honour. We'll be using some

2 of these documents from the list.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's hereby on the record that the parties

4 agree on the existence or more similar documents.

5 Please proceed.

6 MR. TRALDI:

7 Q. Now, Mr. Sejmenovic, I want to turn to a meeting between SDA

8 leaders and leaders of the Serb community held in Prijedor which you

9 discuss in your statement, now P283, beginning in paragraph 4.

10 For Your Honours' reference that begins at the bottom of page 5

11 of the English and page 8 of the B/C/S.

12 And, sir, I'm going to ask you a series of focused questions

13 about this meeting. You say here the meeting was held at the SDS

14 headquarters. When you arrived outside headquarters, who did you first

15 meet?

16 A. First we ran into several policemen, and although we had been

17 announced and the SDS has approved our arrival and ordered the

18 check-points to let us through because we were coming from Kozarac

19 surrounded by police and military forces, the police still intercepted us

20 before the premises of the SDS, asked to see our IDs and check us. They

21 were facing people whom they knew very well, officials, but they were

22 just intimidating us. At that point Simo Miskovic came out and invited

23 us in. He told the policemen to stop checking our IDs.

24 Q. And then, I take it, you went inside. Can you describe for the

25 Chamber the room where you and Miskovic and the others went?

Page 3462

1 A. It was a large room with two smaller rooms on the side, including

2 a kitchenette, Dusan Kurnoga was sitting there and SDS officials,

3 Slobodan Kuruzovic also an SDS official, one person I didn't know.

4 Q. Let's skip with the room for a moment. Were you all at one long

5 table or were there a group of chairs distributed around the room?

6 A. There was a long conference table. The people I enumerated were

7 already sitting on one side. And an acquaintance of mine, Dusan Kurnoga,

8 was in a smaller room off to the side and a girl who worked there as a

9 secretary. We started talking but --

10 Q. Before we get into the conversation, where at the table was

11 Mr. Miskovic sitting?

12 A. Mr. Miskovic was sitting facing the rest of us. He occasionally

13 stood up and walked to the smaller room, sometimes of his own accord,

14 sometimes summoned by Mr. Kurnoga. They were expecting a fax.

15 Q. And about how far away from you was he at the time?

16 A. Very close.

17 Q. And you describe in your statement that then some military

18 officers arrived and joined the meeting. Where did Major Zeljaja sit at

19 the meeting?

20 A. Major Zeljaja was sitting in the second chair behind the table.

21 Colonel Arsic was sitting in the first chair, next to him Major Zeljaja.

22 And next to Zeljaja the third person they brought in sat down and he was

23 introduced as their military security officer. Then there was Miskovic,

24 next to Miskovic a person whose name I didn't know from the police, and

25 next to Miskovic Slobodan Kuruzovic was sitting. On the other side of

Page 3463

1 the table we were sitting in this order.

2 Q. Now, you say in paragraph 24 of your statement, on page 6 of the

3 English and page 8 of the B/C/S, that the Serb military and political

4 figures at the meeting took identical positions. Did one of them, one or

5 the other - the military or the politicians - seem to be more in charge

6 during the meeting, seem to be taking the lead?

7 A. Miskovic as the president of the SDS spoke very little and he did

8 not want to begin the meeting before Colonel Arsic and Major Zeljaja

9 arrived. We wanted to begin but he said he couldn't begin the meeting

10 without them. When the meeting began Colonel Arsic was taking the floor

11 most of the time in the first part of the meeting and then Major Zeljaja

12 took over and he ended the meeting.

13 Q. And, sir, you discuss many of the details of what was said in

14 your statement. So I just want to ask you one more question about this

15 meeting. Based on your observations and the conversation during the

16 meeting, did you develop an impression of what the Serb authorities in

17 Prijedor intended to do next relative to Kozarac?

18 A. Not only did we get an impression, we were told so in so many

19 words. At the beginning of the meeting they were playing cat and mouse

20 with us and they made some jokes in very bad taste, at our expense; and

21 we were very anxious, fearful, and we were hoping to -- we were looking

22 for some hope at that meeting. However, they gave us an ultimatum. They

23 told us how many troops they had under arms and what kind of weapons.

24 But obviously they had not agreed beforehand so they gave us different

25 figures. One said that there were 5.000 armed men, Zeljaja said that

Page 3464

1 Kozarac had 7.000 weapons, and this security officer said he had the best

2 information and he said in fact we have 10.000 pieces of weapons --

3 Q. I'm going to interrupt you just for a second. When you say "they

4 had not agreed beforehand," are you referring to agreement on how many

5 weapons the Muslim community had?

6 A. Correct, correct --

7 Q. Thank you --

8 A. -- the military security officer said.

9 Q. Then I want to return to the question I'd asked you a moment ago:

10 Did you develop an impression of what they intended to do next relative

11 to Kozarac?

12 A. Major Zeljaja said in so many words, I quote, "Unless you

13 surrender 7.000 weapons, I will raze Kozarac to the ground." He repeated

14 that several times, and that was the last thing he said. And he also

15 added, Unless you surrender 7.000 weapons and unless the Serbian flag is

16 flying over Kozarac and the Serb police have control, I'll raze Kozarac

17 to the ground. And he said at the end, When you return those weapons

18 then we can go on talking. Becir Medunjanin answered, How can we return

19 them if we don't have them? And to that he only said, That is your

20 problem, gentlemen, this meeting is over.

21 Q. When he said, "That is you problem gentlemen," did you get an

22 impression of what was going to happen next?

23 A. He repeated he would raze Kozarac to the ground unless we handed

24 over the required --

25 Q. [Previous translation continues]...

Page 3465

1 A. -- number of weapons. He said we shouldn't play with him, the

2 Banja Luka Corps.

3 Q. Next, sir, I'm going to ask you three focused questions about the

4 attempts to expand the Kozarac TO after the meeting which you describe in

5 P283. First, as best you can tell at its highest, about how many men

6 were in the Kozarac TO?

7 A. Do you mean the number before the expansion of the TO or after?

8 Q. The most at any point.

9 A. In peacetime it could have numbered several hundred at most,

10 1- to 200, that's my rough estimate, although I'm not really qualified to

11 make it. But in the attempt to enlarge the Territorial Defence we were

12 still not able to boost it over a couple of hundred and this process of

13 expansion was never finished because we neither had time nor the

14 capability.

15 Q. And in paragraph 28 of P283, on page 6 of the English and page 9

16 of the B/C/S you talk about Serb leaders making reference to the

17 Green Berets. As far as you knew, were there any Green Berets in

18 Prijedor in May and June of 1992?

19 A. No, there were no Green Berets or any other formation. The term

20 "Green Berets" was used by Serb officers as propaganda without any

21 substance to it.

22 Q. Now, sir, have you heard of a village named Radmilovo in the

23 Prijedor?

24 A. Radmilovo village does not exist in the Prijedor municipality and

25 it never did. I heard that the Serb army had renamed Kozarac into

Page 3466

1 Radmilovo village after their successful operation offensive and the

2 razing of Kozarac. It was done by Zeljaja. I heard that Zeljaja's name

3 was Radmilo and that they renamed Kozarac after him. I was not there to

4 see it, but I was informed that there was even a [indiscernible] at the

5 entry into Kozarac with that name.

6 Q. And, sir, at paragraph 40 of your statement, on page 9 of the

7 English and page 13 of the B/C/S, you describe the destruction of

8 non-Serb villages and say Serb-populated villages experienced little or

9 no damage. I have only one question: Is what you say about this the

10 distinction that I just repeated, is that based on your personal

11 observations?

12 A. Yes, I was able to see that myself as I was being taken out of

13 Trnopolje to be taken to the prison in Prijedor, and when I was taken

14 from the prison in Prijedor to Omarska.

15 Q. And, sir, was your own property damaged in Prijedor during this

16 period?

17 A. I did not have any property in Prijedor. At the time I had -- I

18 lived in an old house and it was partly damaged.

19 Q. And, I'm sorry, when I said "Prijedor" I meant to refer to the

20 municipality rather than the town. That old house you referred to, that

21 was within the municipality of Prijedor; right?

22 A. Correct.

23 Q. And do you know during this period what happened to the mosques

24 in Prijedor municipality?

25 A. The mosques were destroyed, usually by tanks or they were blown

Page 3467

1 up.

2 Q. And when did you hear about the mosques being destroyed?

3 A. We heard about that often from people who were deported to

4 Trnopolje camp from various parts of Prijedor, and we heard it

5 practically first-hand because some of those people were witnesses to

6 that destruction. And I was able to see it myself as I was being

7 deported from the prison in Prijedor towards Omarska. There had been a

8 lot of mosques along that road, but not anymore.

9 Q. And do you know the name of any of the specific mosques that had

10 previously been along that road?

11 A. Along that road was the mosque in Mujkanovici, Kozarusa,

12 Kamicani, Jakupovici, and I've listed only some of them.

13 Q. And, sir, I'd now like to turn to your time in Trnopolje.

14 MR. TRALDI: And I'd ask the court officer to please call up

15 65 ter 11338.

16 Q. And, sir, in your statement you described entering Trnopolje.

17 Can you describe the physical condition of the people you saw who were

18 held there?

19 A. In the camp I first heard only hearsay information, but when I

20 came closer, like 700 metres from the camp, I could see people inside.

21 They looked exhausted. They moved slowly, gazing with dull eyes. Some

22 of them were lying on the grass because they had no accommodation, not

23 even improvised. Later I went in and had contact with some of the people

24 and I got more specific information.

25 Q. And does this picture of the detainee in the front of this

Page 3468

1 picture, does this accurately reflect the state of health of the people

2 you saw in Trnopolje?

3 A. This is what they looked like most of the time, most of them,

4 because of the starvation, the beatings, and the constant fear.

5 MR. TRALDI: And, Your Honours, I'd ask that 65 ter 11338 be

6 admitted into evidence as the next public Prosecution exhibit.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Document 11338 becomes Exhibit P291,

9 Your Honours.

10 JUDGE ORIE: P291 is admitted into evidence.

11 MR. TRALDI:

12 Q. I only have one more question about your time in Trnopolje, sir.

13 In paragraph 47 of your statement, P283, on page 10 of the English and 15

14 of the B/C/S, you discuss the killing of six people with the family name

15 Foric. Do you know the first names of any of those six people named

16 Foric?

17 A. Three times two brothers or the children of three brothers

18 Jasmin, Zijad, Zilhad, I cannot remember the rest. Perhaps I'd need a

19 bit more time.

20 Q. And for Zijad and Zilhad, are those different people or a

21 different way of saying the same name?

22 A. Two different persons. They are the children of two different

23 brothers. They themselves were not brothers.

24 Q. And, sir, I want to turn now to your time in Omarska.

25 MR. TRALDI: And I'd ask the court officer to call up

Page 3469

1 65 ter 10894.

2 Q. Mr. Sejmenovic, as you'll see, the photograph is of a model.

3 What does the model you see here represent?

4 A. This is the Omarska work camp. At that time it was actually a

5 concentration camp. This is a model.

6 Q. And in your statement you mention seeing people sitting in an

7 asphalt area when you arrived at Omarska. Where were you taken from that

8 asphalt area?

9 A. I was taken inside, into this building on the right, in this

10 photograph, or rather, the smaller building. My name and surname were

11 recorded and then I was taken out to this small white house that is in

12 the upper part of the photograph.

13 Q. And what were the conditions of the detainees you met in the

14 white house?

15 A. The white house was covered in blood, the floors, the walls,

16 totally covered in blood. In one room near the entrance there were a few

17 people there lying on the floor moaning. The left room was empty,

18 though, and the soldiers took me to the room on the left; and then a

19 beating followed administered by the soldiers. If I remember correctly,

20 there were five of them. They did not enter as a group, they entered one

21 by one. And then a civilian entered the room and his task was also to

22 administer the beating. After that they took me out, and in the meantime

23 they called a man from the other building to wipe the blood off my face

24 because it was covered with blood, and then they took me to this smaller

25 building upstairs to the third office, if I remember correctly, on the

Page 3470

1 right-hand side. In the office there was a man wearing civilian clothes

2 who had arrived from Prijedor on the same bus on which they brought me,

3 and in addition to him there were two other men in uniform there.

4 Q. Is that where the interrogation you describe in your statement

5 took place?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And when the interrogation ended, did the inspector who

8 interrogated you say he was going to share information about that

9 interrogation with anyone else, any person or institution?

10 A. When the interrogation was over, they -- he said that officers of

11 the military security were coming from Banja Luka on the following day

12 and that they would continue the interrogation and then I would sign the

13 statement. Indeed, on the next day, two officers of the military

14 security arrived from Banja Luka. One of them was an older man, the

15 other one was a younger man. They were in uniform, they interrogated me,

16 they interviewed me, but it was rather short.

17 After that the inspector said to me, Now all of this will go

18 before the military court. I'm done.

19 Q. And --

20 A. What will happen to you will follow after the judgement of the

21 military court, whatever that says.

22 Q. And, sir, did you remain in the white house for your whole time

23 in Omarska; that is, were you housed there?

24 A. No. After the first interrogation I was taken to a room in

25 between that was called the glass house. It's sort of round the middle

Page 3471

1 of this smaller building --

2 Q. Thank you --

3 A. -- it's surrounded by glass and it doesn't have a roof.

4 MR. TRALDI: And I'd ask that the witness be provided with a red

5 pen for marking. Thank you.

6 Q. Mr. Sejmenovic, I'm going to ask you to mark three spots on the

7 photograph. Please do not mark anything until I ask you to do so.

8 First, do you see the asphalt area where people were being forced to sit

9 when you arrived at Omarska?

10 A. It's this part here.

11 Q. And, sir, I'd ask that you wait to mark until I ask you to do so.

12 But within that area could you mark a number 1, please.

13 A. [Marks]

14 Q. And do you see the white house that you mentioned where you were

15 taken early in your time at Omarska?

16 A. I do.

17 Q. And could you mark a number 2 next to the white house?

18 A. [Marks]

19 Q. And, finally, do you see where the glass house you mentioned

20 would be?

21 A. I do.

22 Q. And could you mark a number 3 in that area?

23 A. [Marks]

24 MR. TRALDI: And, Your Honours, I'd ask that 65 ter 10894 as

25 marked by the witness be admitted into evidence as a public exhibit.

Page 3472

1 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Document 10894 as marked by the witness in court

3 becomes Exhibit P292, Your Honours.

4 JUDGE ORIE: P292 is admitted into evidence.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: If I may just get some clarification.

6 Mr. Sejmenovic, you made a rectangle on the blue-coloured area

7 and -- as number 1. My question to you is: Is the asphalt only inside

8 that rectangle you made or is the asphalt the entire blue area that we

9 see?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The entire area was asphalt, but

11 there was this one area that was chained off and that was a square. And

12 within that confined area people sat crouching, one next to the other.

13 So that's why I marked it as a square.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.

15 MR. TRALDI:

16 Q. So, sir, is it correct to say from your answer, based on your

17 answer, that the entire blue area was asphalt but the rectangle

18 represents the area described in your statement, in P283?

19 A. That's right. At that point in time people were only within that

20 square and the entire area was covered with concrete.

21 Q. Mr. Sejmenovic, in paragraph 56 of P283, it's page 12 of the

22 English and page 18 of the B/C/S, you mention that Islam Bahonjic,

23 Becir Medunjanin, and Mr. Medunjanin's wife were killed in Omarska. I

24 only have one question about this paragraph. Do you know the first name

25 of Mr. Medunjanin's wife?

Page 3473

1 A. Becir Medunjanin.

2 Q. His wife, sir.

3 A. Sadeta Medunjanin.

4 Q. And, Mr. Sejmenovic, the last thing I want to talk to you about

5 is your release from Omarska. First, can you tell the Chamber how you

6 were feeling when you were first brought to meet with Vojo Kupresanin?

7 A. Your Honour, it is difficult to express this feeling. You are in

8 a pot where everything is death and death alone. And then a person

9 appears from top political echelons and it's as if nothing had happened,

10 tries to talk to you only about politics. Of course I was in fear, I was

11 tense, and I thought that this was another thing I had to face before my

12 death. I kept silent for the most part and Vojo Kupresanin spoke and

13 this was not really a conversation it was more of a monologue.

14 Q. And, sir, you say in paragraph 63, on page 13 of the English and

15 20 of the B/C/S, that you heard Kupresanin say that he was going to

16 provide you with some things, a suit, some money, and other things. Do

17 you know to whom he was speaking when he said that?

18 A. Yes, he was speaking to Karadzic and he told me that he had

19 Karadzic on the line. He confirmed to him on the telephone once he

20 brought me to Banja Luka that we had arrived to Banja Luka and Karadzic

21 told him to get a suit for me for sure and that I should put on some

22 weight, get proper nourishment and get some proper rest. I didn't know

23 the actual reasons for that but very soon I found out why that was

24 happening.

25 Q. And why did you conclude it was happening?

Page 3474

1 A. Actually, I did not conclude that. A soldier who was a driver

2 walked up to me and said, This is a good thing for you, having become a

3 member of the Serb Assembly; however, you have to be careful because the

4 Muslims are going to kill you. It was only then that I actually found

5 out what was going on. Karadzic and Kupresanin needed that then, namely,

6 through me and through other survivors, possibly, they could simulate

7 multi-ethnic government and show that in government there were some

8 persons who were not Serbs and that the accusations levelled by the

9 international community were wrong; and that way they were trying to get

10 rid of the blame for all the atrocities they had committed even until

11 then.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, I'm looking at the clock and I think you

13 asked for one hour.

14 MR. TRALDI: That's right, Your Honour. I have three questions

15 remaining.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Three brief questions, please proceed.

17 MR. TRALDI:

18 Q. First, sir, in paragraph 66 at the bottom of the same page you

19 mention 65 ter 18244, now P286, and I just ask that that be called back

20 up to the screen. And if we could zoom in on the top left-hand corner,

21 the relevant information is the same in the English and the B/C/S. In

22 your statement, sir, you say you received this document in January 1993.

23 The document itself reads January 1992, and I'd just ask you to clarify

24 which is the correct year.

25 A. It is 1993 and this date -- well, I focused on it only many, many

Page 3475

1 years later. Actually, it was the court here that indicated that to

2 me --

3 Q. [Previous translation continues]...

4 A. -- they put a question and that was the first time I saw that

5 this said "1992," mistakenly.

6 Q. Based on your contacts with Kupresanin and other Serb

7 authorities, did you develop an impression whether they were aware of the

8 true state of affairs in camps like Omarska and Trnopolje?

9 A. They knew fully and some of them had personal insight and they

10 were well-informed for the most part.

11 Q. When they spoke to you, did any of them ever express regret over

12 those conditions or express the intention to punish the people at the

13 camps who were directly abusing detainees?

14 A. Your Honours, what I find puzzling to this day is the following:

15 Not at any point in time did I see any negative feeling in anybody's

16 face. They were not appalled. They were not surprised. Nothing. They

17 were facing these facts as if this were a "normal" development in war and

18 that is how they behaved when I was in Banja Luka too. So my impression

19 was that they all did accept what was going on.

20 MR. TRALDI: And, Your Honours, that completes my examination.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Traldi.

22 We'll take a break, but we'd like to see you back in 20 minutes

23 from now.

24 Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.

25 [The witness stands down]

Page 3477

1 JUDGE ORIE: You'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Lukic. You'll

2 find Mr. Lukic to your left. Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

3 Please proceed.

4 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

5 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Sejmenovic.

6 A. Good afternoon, sir.

7 Q. I will begin in a reverse order by asking you a few questions

8 about what you spoke last and then we'll move to your statement. You

9 mentioned the map that was published and that the SDS claimed that

10 70 per cent of the land belonged to the Serbs. Did you, yourself, study

11 the cadastral registers?

12 A. No, I didn't but I do have some limited knowledge on that

13 subject.

14 Q. According to you, what were the respective percentages of the

15 Muslims, the Serbs, and the Croats? Can you just tell me the

16 percentages --

17 JUDGE ORIE: Short pause between answer and question, please.

18 And could you do the same, Mr. Sejmenovic. Could you just pause for a

19 second between question and answer.

20 Please proceed.

21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Do you have any specific percentages?

23 A. My supposition in that regard is as following.

24 Q. Supposition. You have no knowledge?

25 A. That is in the domain of expertise of the professionals.

Page 3478

1 Q. All right. Let's move on.

2 A. Please, Your Honours, allow me to say this. Seventy per cent of

3 the land on the Prijedor map was socially owned property of all ethnic

4 groups. The rest was in the private hands, and then this rest can only

5 be divided into Muslim, Serb, and Croatian property. That was the actual

6 state. At that time, the Serbs claimed all this common property as being

7 their own.

8 Q. Is that what they say explicitly?

9 A. All the areas of Urije, of Kozarac, the industrial complexes were

10 also marked in colour red on the maps and all these things were socially

11 owned property.

12 Q. Concerning Kozara [Realtime transcript read in error "Kozarac"],

13 is it correct that there were large properties covered in woods belonging

14 to --

15 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers please do not overlap and

16 the witness is kindly asked to begin his answer from the beginning.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I -- Mr. Lukic will now repeat his question.

18 Could you only start answering it when you see the letters on your screen

19 are not moving any further, because otherwise the interpreters will miss

20 part of your answer.

21 Mr. Lukic.

22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. You say that non-Serbs could not refute what was published --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, you were invited to repeat your last

25 question which has not been answered. You said: "Concerning Kozarac, is

Page 3479

1 it correct" --

2 MR. LUKIC: Kozara, Kozara, that's mountain Kozara.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Kozara.

4 MR. LUKIC: Yes.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, concerning Mount Kozara, whether it was correct

6 that there were large properties covered in woods belonging to -- and

7 could you then complete that question, belonging to --

8 MR. LUKIC: Serbs.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Belonging to Serbs.

10 And could you now answer that question, Mr. Sejmenovic.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course there were pieces of land

12 belonging to the Serbs, but the by far biggest part of the land was

13 socially owned. This gentleman is insisting on title deeds that date

14 from some previous and earlier period, but this is to be debated

15 elsewhere. I know that in 1918 and 1928 as a result of agricultural

16 reform a lot of the land had been confiscated, including parts of Kozara

17 and were given to the Serbs. For example, one such place is

18 Pasino Nikonaci [phoen] but this is not the subject here. At the time

19 when this map was published, the categories of ownership were socially

20 owned and private property. The map depicted at the time showed the huge

21 part of common or socially owned property as being the ownership of the

22 Serbs, which was in contravention of reality and the actual state.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic, I think you remember my instructions.

24 This is the last warning. No speaking allowed. Communication by little

25 notes. Consultations during the breaks.

Page 3480

1 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. You keep saying "at the time," "at the time when the map was

4 published." When was the map published?

5 A. I don't know the date, but that was shortly before the take-over

6 of power that the map was published.

7 Q. And are you trying to say that at the time in "Kozarski Vjesnik"

8 there were no Muslims employees?

9 A. At the time my friend Muharem Nezirovic worked for

10 "Kozarski Vjesnik." And according to the information that I had, neither

11 he nor anyone else had any impact on editorial policies and he was unable

12 to either refute or retract any published material.

13 Q. As for Dr. Kovacevic, you said that he was the vice-president of

14 the executive committee?

15 A. He was the president of the executive committee. I do apologise.

16 Q. Did you, yourself, take part in the work of the

17 Assembly of Republika Srpska?

18 A. No, I didn't.

19 Q. You said then that the military investigators told you that your

20 fate depended on the conviction or the judgement that was to be rendered

21 by the military?

22 A. That's not what I said.

23 Q. Well, that was how it was recorded. What were you told by the

24 military investigators?

25 A. Your Honours, that's not what I said. I'm going to repeat what I

Page 3481

1 said, and I have to react to your observation in terms that you said

2 today I am inserting the army. Now, when I first appeared before this

3 Tribunal in Tadic case I said that after being interrogated by

4 Mr. Radakovic, two military security officers came from Banja Luka and

5 they stayed there for a short period of time. You can find reference to

6 this in at least two cases. So I'm not offering any new information

7 today. That's the first thing.

8 Secondly, I already spoke about this, and you can find it on

9 record, that the investigator who questioned me, Mr. Radakovic, literally

10 said: I am done. This is now going to be deferred to a military court.

11 End of quotation.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Sejmenovic, would you please focus your answers

13 on what is asked and not refer to any records which are not known to this

14 Chamber because the parties have not provided us with it. Just try to

15 leave comment out and only answer the question.

16 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18 Can we please have in e-court the witness's statement which is

19 P283.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Which page and paragraph, Mr. Lukic?

21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let's start with paragraph 6.

22 Q. Mr. Sejmenovic, in this paragraph you speak about how the SDS was

23 established. Did you ever take part in the work of any SDS organs?

24 A. No, I didn't, but I was able to hear about the existing SDS

25 organs, either from the media or from my friends and colleagues who were

Page 3482

1 holding different positions within the SDS.

2 Q. Is it a fact that you don't know the inner workings of the SDS,

3 how the decisions were being made and implemented?

4 A. I'm not familiar with the detailed procedure, but basically the

5 procedure was as I described it. There was the president who was the

6 main person, there was municipal board, sometimes there was an

7 Executive Board. Whether the SDS had an Executive Board, I don't know.

8 Q. Let's now move to paragraph 7. You speak here about new

9 reorganisation [as interpreted] requested by the SDS and you say that

10 this was in the contravention of the B&H constitution.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Just in order to avoid any misunderstanding, it was

12 "regionalisation" and not "reorganisation." Please proceed.

13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 Q. Which BH constitution are you referring to, the one that was in

15 force at the time?

16 A. Yes, the one that was in force at the time with all the inherited

17 laws that were not readopted in the meantime and were simply adopted from

18 the previous period.

19 Q. Which particular constitutional provision were you referring to

20 when you said that it was in contravention -- this regionalisation was in

21 contravention of it?

22 A. The regionalisation of Bosnia-Herzegovina could definitely not be

23 based on an ethnic principle. At the moment I cannot tell you the exact

24 article of the constitution because I'm not an expert.

25 Q. Let me interrupt you. Are you familiar with chapter 5 of the

Page 3483

1 BH constitution?

2 A. I don't remember. You can read it out if you believe it's

3 useful.

4 Q. In that chapter we read, among other things, the working people

5 and citizens - that was the language used at the time - are free to unite

6 into associations or other socio-political organisations.

7 A. Yes, but it doesn't say on ethnic grounds.

8 Q. It says "free," free to associate. Let me go on with my

9 questioning.

10 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I just wanted to check if this has a

11 Defence 65 ter number. It wasn't on the list we got for the witness, but

12 if it's in e-court it would be helpful for us to be able to review it.

13 MR. LUKIC: I'm sure it does have your 65 ter number, but I

14 haven't marked it here.

15 MR. TRALDI: We'll look around then. Thank you.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: So, Mr. Lukic.

17 MR. LUKIC: Yes, sir.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: I understand the witness to be talking about

19 regionalisation of the geographic area of the country. You're talking

20 about freedom of association [indiscernible] associate whatever way you

21 like but not appropriate land to yourselves as owned by that specific

22 ground other than what is provided for in the constitution, as I

23 understand it. What I'm trying to say to you is what you are quoting to

24 the witness as freedom of association doesn't address what you are

25 discussing with the witness which is regionalisation of the geographic

Page 3484

1 area of the country.

2 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, as I know but I cannot testify here,

3 that was actually the base where that regionalisation would take place

4 on. It has nothing to do with the property, ownership, but about the --

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, sure --

6 MR. LUKIC: -- joining of municipalities. There was base for --

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's not what the witness is testifying about.

8 The witness is testifying about the fact that SDS was appropriating vast

9 areas of land, 70 per cent of it, to the Serbs. That has nothing to do

10 with freedom of association. It has got to do with how you divide the

11 land.

12 MR. LUKIC: I'll try to clarify, Your Honour, but --

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Please do.

14 MR. LUKIC: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

15 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Sejmenovic, in paragraph 7 are you talking

16 about ownership of land or are you talking about the joining of

17 municipalities together into a region? Can you see this paragraph?

18 A. A moment. Bosnia and Herzegovina was already regionalised at the

19 time. The regionalisation was already in place. The SDS was asking for

20 the regionalisation to be effected in a different way, along ethnic

21 principles, although these processes should have been regulated at the

22 republic level, not the municipal level. The republic leadership should

23 have taken those decisions, whereas it was done on municipal level, in

24 Serb municipalities, and it was even called Serb autonomous region. The

25 municipalities were not the ones who had the freedom to associate.

Page 3485

1 Q. What is the right to associate? Do you have any legal training,

2 by the way?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Would you agree with me that you cannot interpret the

5 constitution or the constitutional provisions of the

6 then-Bosnia-Herzegovina?

7 A. Your Honours, already at your first question I made this

8 reservation and I said I'm not qualified in these matters. But I do have

9 some experience of work in the parliament, five years' experience, more

10 precisely, and I know what this is about. Also, knowing that it has to

11 deal with these issues at the state level, the SDS raised this issue in

12 the republic assembly. They substantiated their proposal at several

13 sessions. They tried to push through this new regionalisation at state

14 level. These attempts were opposed for the reasons I already described

15 here, because they wanted to round off certain ethnic territories, and

16 this regionalisation was just a pretext.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, Mr. Lukic, before we end up in a

18 colloquium on constitutional law, paragraph 7 expresses as the view of

19 this witness who is not a trained lawyer, certainly not a constitutional

20 lawyer, that what he describes as a matter of fact that he thinks it's

21 against the BH constitution. Now, since he is not an expert, let's leave

22 it for the time being with that and let's not enter in further debates on

23 whether or not it's the view of this witness at this moment. Perhaps

24 there are other moments where we could further explore that.

25 Second, the freedom of association and the freedom to reorganise

Page 3486

1 constitutional structures and administrative structures may not be

2 exactly the same, but again not a subject perhaps to be discussed at this

3 moment with a witness who seems not to be an expert in this matter.

4 Please proceed.

5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

6 Q. We'll just clear up some facts now. Is it true that at that time

7 the party you belonged to, the SDA, was advocating the secession of

8 Bosnia-Herzegovina from Yugoslavia?

9 A. The party to which I belonged at the time was advocating a

10 reorganisation of Yugoslavia from which one republic, Slovenia, had

11 already seceded. In the eyes of the party to which I belonged,

12 Yugoslavia was a state with its -- all of its republics, but when, for

13 different reasons, various republics started seceding, the president of

14 our party advocated that negotiations should be held to make some sort of

15 state again and to avoid conflict and tensions.

16 For the party to which I belonged, Yugoslavia without Slovenia,

17 without Croatia, was not really Yugoslavia anymore. It was the remnant

18 of a country in which all the balance that it had rested upon was upset.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Could I -- you have not really answered the question

20 put to you by Mr. Lukic. Could you please tell us whether it's true that

21 at the time the SDA was advocating the secession of Bosnia-Herzegovina

22 from Yugoslavia; that is, that they wanted Bosnia and Herzegovina to

23 become independent, an independent state from Yugoslavia? Is that what

24 at the time was advocated by the SDA leadership?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Since it was a process, could

Page 3487

1 counsel please pin-point the period he is referring to, the month and the

2 year?

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. We were talking about 1991 regarding regionalisation. So I asked

5 you at the time, that means in 1991.

6 A. That was a time of intense negotiations. We were in favour of

7 staying within Yugoslavia, however, in a Yugoslavia with all of its

8 republics. We were against staying inside a Yugoslavia that would have

9 only three or four republics.

10 Q. In 1991 were all the republics still part of Yugoslavia, yes or

11 no?

12 A. Towards the end of 1991, no.

13 Q. So when I ask you about 1991, you're talking about a situation

14 when not all the republics were there. And in that situation, was your

15 party in favour of secession, of a separate state of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

16 A. Our party held the following position: If other republics

17 proclaim independence, we want our republic to become independent too.

18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just a reference to Mr. Traldi, the

19 constitution of BH is 65 ter 15207, and the 1974 BH constitution is

20 17211.

21 MR. TRALDI: Thank you.

22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

23 Q. In paragraph 8 you state:

24 "The SDS justified its attempt to create ethnically separate

25 regions based on its goal of keeping ethnic Serbs in Yugoslavia and did

Page 3488

1 not take into account the views of other political parties."

2 At that time did the SDA take into account the positions of the

3 SDS?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And you gave up on secession because the SDS wanted it to remain

6 one state; right?

7 A. The SDA had a basis for its activity and any activity it pursued,

8 it pursued through parliamentary procedure.

9 Q. Thank you. That's enough. I've let you talk around quite

10 enough. Even the Prosecutor kept you focused on his questions --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, that's not the language -- I've let you

12 talk around quite enough -- you can interrupt, but no problem. But most

13 important, take a short pause between answer and question.

14 MR. LUKIC: I have no time to take a pause, Your Honour, because

15 the witness is --

16 JUDGE ORIE: If you take --

17 MR. LUKIC: -- talking all the time. I have to stop him.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you do that with one or two words, Stop here,

19 please, or I have to interrupt you. And then leave it to that until the

20 witness stops. If he doesn't do that, I will assist you in achieving

21 that aim.

22 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Sejmenovic, if your answer is not sufficiently

24 focused on the question, Mr. Lukic may interrupt you and then you'll have

25 to stop and then you should listen to his next question as you have to do

Page 3489

1 now.

2 Mr. Lukic.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.

4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. So you say the SDS justified its attempt to create ethnically

6 separate regions by its goal of keeping ethnic Serbs in Yugoslavia and

7 did not want to take into account the views of other political parties.

8 My question is: Did the SDA take into account the efforts of the SDS to

9 remain within Yugoslavia or not?

10 A. Everything was taking place in the parliament of

11 Bosnia-Herzegovina. The SDS did not have a majority in the parliament

12 and its proposals were against the will of the parliamentary majority.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, I'm looking at the clock --

15 MR. LUKIC: Yes.

16 JUDGE ORIE: -- and unfortunately we have to stop for the day.

17 Mr. Sejmenovic, I'd like to instruct you that you should not

18 speak or communicate in any other way with whomever about your testimony,

19 whether that is testimony you've given today or whether that's testimony

20 you will give tomorrow. We'd like to see you back tomorrow morning at

21 9.30 and you may follow the usher.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

23 [The witness stands down]

24 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that there is a practical problem

25 with 65 ter 22696 which was admitted, but it being a video I think